00:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, the 64-bit Unix ABI specifies that the xmm registers are used for floats and doubles..
00:27:03 <oklopol> "<augur> my sleep generally ends up involving ..." <<< when i'm half asleep, reading math, i sometimes get these sudden feelings that one mathematical object in a definition is angry with another one, or that some things have a love affair, sometimes a rather complicated scenario can appear, where all the mathematical objects are humans with certain roles in some human interaction vaguely similar to what's being defined or proven
00:27:20 <oklopol> and when it happens i usually try to keep reading without falling to sleep because it's fucking awesome
00:28:01 <oklopol> (i mean the scenario doesn't evolve or anything, but i continue in hope that it happens again)
00:28:12 <augur> will you be my argument tonight
00:28:48 <oklopol> i wish i remembered these... i guess they are sort of microdreams because i can't seem to remember them for very long
00:29:28 <Phantom_Hoover> The mathematical love affairs were interesting. Try reading a romance novel and a maths book at the same time.
00:31:34 <augur> oklopol: BE MY ARGUMENT
00:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, presumably because it tends to be typeset in non-monospaced fonts.
00:31:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: so is math, so can't be the reason
00:31:58 <augur> I WANT TO PUT YOU IN MY BODY
00:32:20 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: more haskellish plx.
00:32:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, can you just not make sense of the words, or do you just not like it?
00:32:48 <oklopol> oerjan: let's not get carried away
00:32:50 <augur> thats backwards, oerjan
00:33:03 <augur> i dont think =<< is defined at all
00:33:13 <oerjan> eviscerates? i don't think we're thinking of the same monad
00:33:43 <augur> whats reverse-bind do?
00:33:46 <oerjan> !haskell [1,2,3] =<< [4,5]
00:33:48 <augur> besides bind, i mean
00:33:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It provides an interface between computations in the brain and the body.
00:33:58 <augur> oerjan, thats not a function
00:34:10 <augur> [4,5] >>= [1,2,3] is a type error.
00:34:19 <oerjan> !haskell const [1,2,3] =<< [4,5]
00:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> So bind rips a person's brain out of their body and applies the other one to it.
00:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> As such, oklopol >>= return is effectively a brain transplant.
00:34:59 <oerjan> augur: it's just the same with arguments swapped, for when you want "arguments" to go last like with ordinary functions
00:35:12 <augur> !haskell [4,5] >>= const [1,2,3]
00:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol >>= augur probably takes augur's body and puts oklopol's brain in it.
00:35:27 <oklopol> wait what's wrong with mine
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00:35:44 <EgoBot> (>>) :: (Monad m) => m a -> m b -> m b
00:35:53 <augur> >> is just sequencing
00:36:12 <augur> its basically >>= where the argument of the function is _
00:36:41 <oklopol> that's why i thought [1,2,3] << [4,5] is [4,5] >>= const [1,2,3].
00:36:50 <oerjan> augur: =<< is better for combining with . as they have the same "direction of flow"
00:37:22 <oklopol> so why didn't mine work then
00:37:29 <augur> << isnt defined is why
00:37:35 <oklopol> or is << not defined, ego said something about problems with ++
00:37:50 <oklopol> /tmp/input.19254.hs:1:33: parse error on input `++'
00:37:58 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, probably because if they defined every variant on every operator then Haskell would be enormous.
00:37:59 <oklopol> therefore i assumed << is defined
00:38:07 <oklopol> given that it's a parse error
00:38:11 <oklopol> that was a bit stupid of me
00:38:15 <augur> did you just type ++
00:38:18 <augur> or did you type (++)
00:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you assumed that GHC error reporting was going to be clear?
00:38:26 <oklopol> i tope "!haskell [1,2,3] << [4,5]"
00:38:39 <EgoBot> concatMap :: (a -> [b]) -> [a] -> [b] -- Defined in GHC.List
00:38:58 <oklopol> but as i said: silly of me
00:39:11 <oerjan> !haskell [1,2,3] << [4,5]
00:39:25 <oerjan> oklopol: says nothing about ++ for me
00:39:46 <augur> are you just typing ++
00:39:54 <augur> and getting the parse error?
00:39:57 <augur> or are you typing (++)
00:39:58 <oklopol> i don't have a haskell interp or compiler
00:40:15 <augur> so where the fuck did "/tmp/input.19254.hs:1:33: parse error on input `++'" come from
00:40:18 <augur> dont make me fuck you up
00:40:32 <augur> what did you type to egobot
00:40:49 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i mostly talk about math and design languages
00:41:32 <oklopol> augur: i tope "!haskell [1,2,3] << [4,5]", as i said; in any case i retried and now it says "<interactive>:1:117: Not in scope: `Main.main'"
00:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, operators need either to have both arguments or be bracketed, otherwise they are syntax errors.
00:41:45 <EgoBot> (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] -- Defined in GHC.Base
00:41:48 <EgoBot> (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] -- Defined in GHC.Base
00:42:01 <oklopol> oh and "tope" means "typed" in case you don't know olden golden english
00:42:04 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: i know this
00:42:08 <oklopol> they said tope in the 1500's
00:42:09 <augur> which is why i was asking oklopol
00:42:11 <oerjan> augur: (++) is a function and has no printable form by default
00:42:43 <oerjan> !haskell [1,2,3] << [4,5]
00:43:09 <oklopol> augur: to tell this a third time, for fun, i did not type ++ anywhere, in fact it's months since i typed it.
00:43:27 <oerjan> oklopol: that's weird i just get a simple parse error with no mention of ++
00:43:32 <augur> be my argument tonight <3
00:43:54 <oklopol> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.19886.hs:2:0:
00:43:54 <oklopol> <EgoBot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:44:06 <oerjan> oklopol: that's what i got, essentially
00:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I have GHCi on my computer. << is not defined in the Prelude or in Control.Monad.
00:44:45 <oklopol> i'll try once more, gave me parse error again
00:45:01 <oklopol> seems it's now consistently a parse error
00:46:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: we're not trying to make << work, we're just wondering why EgoBot apparently gives oklopol strangely inconsistent error messages to that
00:46:26 <oerjan> involving ++ at least one time
00:46:46 <Sgeo__> "I try hard to forget Perl every day"
00:47:16 <Sgeo__> That reminds me, I'm taking a class on Perl this upcoming semester :(
00:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, doesn't !haskell do weird things if GHCi complains?
00:47:26 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
00:47:34 <oklopol> oerjan: are these definitions standard: given a cayley graph G with generators X = {g_1, ..., g_n}, we define norms on strings over X by calculating the amounts of uses of each g_i (k-norms and shit), and then we define the norm of an element as the minimal norm of a representation as string over X, then we can define balls as usual and ellipsoids by weighing generators differently when computing the norm
00:47:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes. but the message should still be the same each time...
00:48:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh it just puts it in a file and loads that file as a module with runghc, afaik
00:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, which command exactly caused the weird error?
00:49:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the one you've been bloody complaining about!
00:50:18 <oklopol> apart from the ellipsoids, i'm basically asking if cayley graphs usually inherit the normal metric of the graph
00:50:38 <oklopol> the ellipsoid is fun because we can generalize things like rectangles
00:51:01 <oklopol> because rectangles are the ellipsoids in Z^2 with the infinity norm
00:51:13 <oklopol> with the usualy generators
00:51:39 <oerjan> oklopol: oh hm wait i think i may know what happened. EgoBot has a bug that sometimes causes it to give the response for one command only after the next one... you must have got the response to one of augur's ++ tests
00:52:07 <oklopol> i got two though, but i guess that's just how god made me
00:52:26 <oklopol> i don't get how people don't find cayley graphs so fucking sexy
00:52:30 <oerjan> maybe it happened with both of his tests...
00:53:51 <oklopol> i mean half the lemmas for finite semigroups can be reduced to tracing paths on the cayley graph (the two lemmas i know, that, i just generalized this for arbitrary proofs)
00:54:13 <oklopol> have i mentioned i'm an idiot
00:54:53 <oerjan> but then, as an idiot your word cannot be trusted on such matters
00:55:37 <oklopol> true, only that who are truly smart can know he is not know much things.
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01:00:52 <oerjan> darn i cannot open new internet connections
01:08:21 <Sgeo__> http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/comic.php?ep=encounteratfarpoint&page=1
01:12:52 <Sgeo__> Meh, the non-comic is better
01:13:02 <Sgeo__> I'm still reading the comic for some reason
01:17:25 <Sgeo__> "Yar: I don't waste time thinking. Life is short. Really, really short.
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03:01:55 <Sgeo__> Nurse Ogawa: ...and he also seems to be pregnant.
03:01:55 <Sgeo__> Crusher: But that's impossible! We were really carefu--
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03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Worf: Good news, Doctor. The new Trill host, Kareel, is finally here.
03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Crusher: Where? I don't see anyone.
03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Worf: Our guest first had to stop by the ladies' room.
03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Crusher: That's strange. Is the men's washroom broken?
03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Worf: It is working considerably better than your ability to take a hint.
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03:25:52 <Sgeo__> Oh sure, TOS is legally available online, but not TNG
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03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Worf: Good news, Doctor. The new Trill host, Kareel, is finally here.
03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Crusher: Where? I don't see anyone.
03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Worf: Our guest first had to stop by the ladies' room.
03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Crusher: That's strange. Is the men's washroom broken?
03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Worf: It is working considerably better than your ability to take a hint.
03:49:05 <Sgeo__> Paris: Did you just spoil the plot for the sake of a lame DS9 reference? Neelix, Neelix, Neelix....
03:50:22 <Sgeo__> Janeway: Janeway to all hands: turns out we're all fictional.
03:55:25 <oerjan> but you just ruined my comment!
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11:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Supposedly Microsoft misdocumented the API calling convention to say that arguments were passed left-to-right rather than right-to-left.
11:59:25 <Phantom_Hoover> How did these people corner the home computer market, again?
12:14:03 <asiekierka> Phantom_Hoover: Internet Explorer 4 through 6 and being the first OS that's not a pain to use (Windows 95), why?
12:14:13 <asiekierka> that was when Linux was almost useless for a newbie
12:16:22 <asiekierka> they used the occasion and made an (largely crap when they integrated IE and slowed their OS down) OS useful for the average Joe
12:23:53 <olsner> around the time of IE4, it was really cool that it could make files act like links, underlined and single-click
12:24:01 <olsner> it was like "omg, the web! in my desktop!"
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12:41:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, did you succeed in hitting yourself in the head with a lambda?
12:42:02 <Sgeo__> I succeeded in being very tired, but not sleeping
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13:03:39 <Sgeo__> School starts... I don't know when School starts, exactly
13:04:39 <Sgeo__> By school I mean college, btw
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13:57:07 <olsner> if the mandelbrot set is not computable, could it be [used to implement something] turing complete?
13:57:34 * Sgeo__ reads the Seaside book
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15:59:27 <Gregor> Observation: When Ryan North asks for guest Dinosaur Comics, he gets T-Rex/Utahraptor slash action.
16:11:01 <Slereah> Well, not too surprising, since we know they used to be gay lovers
16:16:28 <Gregor> It's arguably how canon that is. But then, guest comics aren't canon anyway.
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16:45:33 <Slereah> That's assuming that it has any canon at all
16:45:48 <Slereah> Instead of being just a string of mostly unrelated jokes
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17:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, would Hackiki and the bots be vulnerable to f00foids?
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17:29:53 * cpressey is waiting for someone to implement Thue in an NSIS script
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17:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> What does a::=hello\ab::=world\::=\ab evaluate to in Thue?
17:53:40 <cpressey> I would guess it evaluate to either or "hellob" or "world"
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17:54:43 * Phantom_Hoover wants to try wearing ridiculous clothes, getting some random leaflets and walking down the Royal Mile and see if the street performers and leaflet out-handers leave him alone.
17:58:41 <pikhq> God damned torrent.
17:58:55 <pikhq> 1.4 megabytes left, and not getting any of it.
18:00:02 <pikhq> ... So I'm going through my ~/audio dir and trying to get FLACs for everything.
18:10:26 <cpressey> Useless trivia: libslang is part of the Ubuntu server base system.
18:10:38 <cpressey> S-Lang, now there's a language!
18:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are there so many languages that are variants of the exact same concept?
18:12:34 <cpressey> Because they were implemented... "they stick quite well"
18:13:44 <cpressey> Why they were implemented... probably mostly NIH
18:14:56 <cpressey> It would be nice to destroy S-Lang, NSIS, AutoKey, etc etc and replace them all with Lua
18:16:03 <cpressey> Actually, I take "mostly NIH" back. There's a subtle effect in play where the language *grows* out of "Let's make it configurizable"
18:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, where the config system grows to the point that it becomes a language in itself?
18:16:57 <cpressey> S-Lang is not like that, but a lot of other ones are.
18:17:09 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: can i remove the toplevel ' plugin', and in a muslim country no less. unless you're coding perhaps.
18:18:16 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. And AutoHotKey (is its real name). And once there was this terminal program for Windows and it had its own scripting language called Aspect... oh man. Yeah.
18:18:55 <cpressey> AutoHotKey is the real name for "AutoKey". NSIS is NSIS. Not related. Just to clarify
18:19:57 <cpressey> Oh, and there was this point of sale system I worked with once with its own really crappy language for its "screens"... well n/m, you get the idea.
18:20:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose the languages are generally shoddily-implemented and slow?
18:23:17 <cpressey> In effect, PHP comes from this school too.
18:28:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And then there's zsh, which is basically the epitome of evolution of stuff.
18:28:44 <cpressey> It's a little different, I grant. But the "evolution into a language" thing is definitely there.
18:29:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way that sentence starts off fairly eloquently and then descends to using "stuff".
18:34:00 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.13261: line 1: zsh: command not found
18:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ZSH has a facility to use readliney editing on variable.
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19:00:18 <AnMaster> * cpressey is waiting for someone to implement Thue in an NSIS script <-- augh
19:00:29 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, would Hackiki and the bots be vulnerable to f00foids? <-- what are f00foids?
19:02:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Since f00f is obviously not dangerous on modern processors.
19:02:50 <AnMaster> cpressey, bash is a quite nice shell to tell the truth
19:03:01 <AnMaster> some prefer zsh, a bit too bloated for my taste
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19:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, he didn't say it wasn't, he just said that it had evolved into a language.
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19:04:02 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, it has a TCP library. <-- bash has the /dev/tcp pseudo device
19:04:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, think it is client only
19:09:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Does bash have an editor in it?
19:11:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, unless you mean line editing
19:11:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, perhaps someone implemented one though
19:13:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know busybox does, but that is kind of cheating
19:13:57 <AnMaster> since it is so much more than a shell
19:14:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, link or it didn't happen
19:14:42 * pikhq looks for citation
19:16:01 <pikhq> Hmm. No, zed got removed a while back.
19:17:52 * Sgeo__ watches the Professor Moriarty eps of TNG
19:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, there is a file editor in zsh, but it's limited and hacky. There's probably a better one.
19:20:52 <Phantom_Hoover> As I said, it provides a facility to edit the contents of variables, and it has a module that enables it to map files to variables.
19:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> So vared mapfile\[file] will allow you to edit it if you aren't interested in hitting return.
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19:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, I suppose you don't have the new Sherlock Holmes series in the US yet.
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19:47:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, right, that was it.
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19:47:54 <pikhq> 12:21 < Phantom_Hoover> So vared mapfile\[file] will allow you to edit it if you aren't interested in hitting return.
19:48:34 <pikhq> Nor's ed. Your point?
19:51:14 <pikhq> There's also zselect.
19:51:44 <pikhq> My god I could write an IRC client in zsh.
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19:57:06 <Gregor-P> You could write ... the hooks between Posix and VFS for Microcosm :P
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20:25:33 <pikhq> Gregor-P: Or I could... DO NOTHING
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20:41:11 <zzo38> I have written a gopher client in bash. I have also written a server in bash (but not gopher), the server I wrote is for receiving logs from the drive wiping program.
20:43:48 <Sgeo__> Everyone should write everything in Smalltalk!
20:45:27 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason, when I try to open LyX's own literate examples it tells me that literate-article.layout either doesn't work or doesn't exist.
20:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I have combed Synaptic for a quick fix, and haven't found anything.
20:49:28 <zzo38> You probably could write a HTTP server in bash, though, if you want to
20:49:52 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, assuming you have two-way TCP access, then yes.
20:50:37 <zzo38> In bash I just used netcat for these things, there are things relied on external programs
20:51:51 <zzo38> The server I wrote was for receiving logs, the client was written in Python, and I simply modified it to connect to the server to send the logs. Each client is assigned a port number on the server to connect to, according to 1024 + the rightmost octet of its IP address.
20:52:32 <zzo38> The first line of the server script (other than the #! line) is like this: trap 'jobs -p | xargs kill' exit
20:52:34 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, what if two computers with the same final octet connect at once?
20:53:33 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: That won't happen. It is all a internal network and there aren't that many clients. It is designed so that each client has a unique final octet.
20:54:59 <zzo38> The server script simply spawns netcat in keep listening mode and redirecting output to files "log.1024" and so on, all running in background (with & at end), and then sleeps forever until interrupted.
21:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> See, if you were using ZSH you could do it with only builtins.
21:04:47 <pikhq> In Zsh you'd just get file descriptors and select on them.
21:05:36 <pikhq> Yes, select. The system call. :)
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21:37:30 <alise> Arson & Mathematics
21:38:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, incidentally, do you know about Multics' memory model?
21:38:13 <alise> --"tell me," he said, "why would I want to blow up the city?"--
21:38:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No.
21:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it has the whole "disc and memory are undistinguished" thing.
21:40:42 <zzo38> I don't know whether the computers at FreeGeek have Zsh
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21:44:04 <zzo38> I have seen a sign "STORE HOURS MON~THU 17:00-25:00" but I think I know what they might mean by that, though.
21:45:42 <zzo38> There isn't 25 hours in a day. But they might mean 1AM next day is when they close. Still, it is a bit strange way to write it
21:46:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: hour :: (hour >= 0 && hour < 24) => Integral n
21:46:27 <pikhq> Erm, that was odd.
21:46:35 <pikhq> hour :: (n >= 0 && n < 24) => Integral n
21:46:44 <pikhq> There, that's not absolutely revolting.
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21:47:04 <pikhq> This torrent is mocking me.
21:47:13 <pikhq> 0.1 megabytes left.
21:49:08 <zzo38> Anime convention is tomorrow, and I do not have a mahjong table. TOO BAD
21:49:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Shougi table, though?
21:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be possible to implement something approximating to the IO monad in Lazy K??
21:51:26 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't have one of those either, but I do some pieces and the paper board (the paper board is not as good as the proper one)
21:51:39 <alise> pikhq: Which torrent?
21:51:57 <pikhq> alise: The Decemberists discography.
21:52:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No; monads require a type system.
21:52:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The closest you could get would be stream-based IO. ... Which Lazy K already has.
21:52:42 <pikhq> (granted, it's limited to stdin and stdout, *but* it's still stream-based IO.)
21:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> What I'm getting at is that there's no immediately obvious way of making a function that will just print some text, wherever it's called.
21:55:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nor is there in Haskell.
21:56:13 <pikhq> putStrLn will only print some text if it is somehow executed from main.
21:56:55 <pikhq> Much like a Lazy K function resulting in a string will only print some text if it is somehow part of the return value of the function executed by the Lazy K RTS.
21:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What my idea came down to was that you'd have something equivalent to a bind function, and then a function would return both its IO stuff and whatever its normal value was.
21:58:06 <oerjan> you certainly could implement the meat of an IO monad in lazy K
21:58:28 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, it's called stream-based IO, which Lazy K does...
21:58:36 <oerjan> it's very close to a State monad i think
21:58:46 <pikhq> You'd basically just be adding additional semantics to the input/output stream.
21:58:58 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, you want tuples. ;)
21:59:53 <oerjan> oh hm except a state monad isn't quite right
22:00:05 <oerjan> you want a state for the input but also a writer for the output
22:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, a function would get the current input stream, and return the modified input stream and whatever output it had.
22:02:00 <oerjan> and also a monadic return value
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22:04:26 <oerjan> that's just the obvious way of implementing a triple in lambda calculus
22:05:34 <oerjan> lessee return x = \i -> f i "" x
22:06:15 <oerjan> an output string would probably be implemented like that ShowS type
22:06:37 <EgoBot> type ShowS = String -> String -- Defined in GHC.Show
22:06:45 <zzo38> If I send a copy of a book and DVD to someone, which is a reimplementation of a old program they originally wrote but now lost the source-codes, what do you expect?
22:06:53 <oerjan> because that makes it easy to prepend and stuff
22:08:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: except you'd want easy composition, which is probably easier if you do it as a prepending function. that's why haskell _has_ the ShowS type after all
22:08:46 <oerjan> it makes output more efficient
22:11:09 <oerjan> x >>= f = \i -> let (i1, o1, v1) = x i; (i2, o2, v2) = f v1 i1 in (i2, o1 . o2, v2)
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22:11:26 <oerjan> replace . by ++ if you insist on using arrays
22:12:30 <oerjan> !haskell shows True " testing"
22:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, so shows takes a value and returns a function that will take a string and append it?
22:13:38 <oerjan> it prepends a string to the string it is given, usually contstructed from the showsPrec method of the ShowS class
22:14:08 <oerjan> shows = showsPrec 0 iirc
22:14:43 <oerjan> showsPrec takes a precedence value to get operators correctly parenthesized
22:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems that (cons x) . (cons y) is a function which appends its argument to [x,y]
22:17:09 <oerjan> note that it should be able to be lazy so y isn't evaluated for printing just the first bit
22:18:10 <oerjan> !haskell let s = show s in take 100 s
22:18:14 <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
22:18:47 <oerjan> that one only works because the first " is given lazily
22:19:47 <alise> !haskell putStr (let s = show s in take 100 s)
22:19:48 <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
22:19:55 <alise> Worst unary counter, or worst unary counter?
22:19:58 <oerjan> i recall trying a similar one based on Char rather than String and it fails due to accidental strictness
22:20:03 <alise> Wait, it isn't unary.
22:20:31 <oerjan> !haskell let s = concatMap show s in take 100 s
22:20:53 * oerjan didn't even get an error message?
22:20:56 <alise> is the first lengths
22:21:23 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:21:46 <oerjan> !haskell :t let s = concatMap show s in take 100 s
22:21:50 <EgoBot> let s = concatMap show s in take 100 s :: [Char]
22:22:00 <oerjan> !haskell let s = concatMap show s in take 100 s
22:22:26 <alise> OEIS has no sequence for it
22:22:43 <alise> well it has /some/ formula
22:22:45 <oerjan> a disturbing lack of output. anyhow i knew that doesn't work because for some reason the Show instance for Char does _not_ give the initial ' lazily. let's cheat.
22:22:54 <Sgeo__> alise, thoughts on Seaside and Aida?
22:23:11 <oerjan> !haskell let s = '\'' : tail (concatMap show s) in take 100 s
22:23:11 <alise> <alise> !haskell putStr (let s = show s in take 100 s)
22:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, How many more languages are you going to learn?
22:23:15 <alise> <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
22:23:17 <EgoBot> "'\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\''"
22:23:23 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, those are both Smalltalk
22:23:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's not helpful
22:23:52 <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
22:24:11 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, also, I love reading about languages
22:24:19 <oerjan> alise: it's just 2^n-1 duh
22:24:52 <alise> 1, 3, 4, 15, 31 does not contain 7
22:24:57 <alise> do you mean the 4?
22:26:08 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
22:26:37 <oerjan> !haskell let s = '\'' : tail (concatMap show s) in putStrLn $ take 100 s
22:26:38 <EgoBot> '\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\\''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\\''\'''\''
22:26:54 <oerjan> that's the Char variant
22:28:53 * Sgeo__ wonders what FFI is like in VisualWorks
22:29:45 <oerjan> i think that's easier than figuring out another finite length array representation for Lazy K, anyhow
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22:31:12 <oerjan> iirc Lazy K uses 256 for EOF marking, so appending lots of arrays in its _standard_ output format would be highly inefficient
22:31:12 <alise> argh! i can't kill opendns
22:31:19 <alise> brb, trying something
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22:32:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i thought that's what i was suggesting?
22:33:03 <oerjan> cons a is what you use for a single character output
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22:36:26 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH they are legitimate errors, so my previous Scheme must have been very forgiving.
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22:39:31 <AnMaster> no, most people are not back yet
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22:40:20 <alise_> Why did you swap your speed with pikhq's?
22:40:29 <alise_> I liked it when /I/ was the one downloading quickly.
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22:41:19 <AnMaster> alise_, what were you torrenting?
22:41:25 -!- SimonRC has joined.
22:41:29 <alise_> AnMaster: I'm torrenting Star Trek (2009).
22:41:30 -!- mtve has joined.
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22:41:39 <alise_> AnMaster: In raw Blu-Ray stream format, no less
22:41:45 <AnMaster> alise_, how fun, is that one of the good or bad ones?
22:42:10 <alise_> AnMaster: It's the alternate-universe-reboot type dealie.
22:42:22 <AnMaster> alise_, um, aren't those generally bad?
22:42:22 <alise_> AnMaster: (It's odd numbered, though, just as Nemesis was even-numbered; the widely-accepted solution is to put Galaxy Quest before Nemesis.)
22:42:37 <alise_> AnMaster: Well, a lot of the time, but everyone in here says it's good.
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22:42:52 <alise_> AnMaster: The alternate universe is actually part of the plot, so.
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22:43:16 <alise_> Star Trek Nemesis is a 2002 science fiction film directed by Stuart Baird, written by John Logan (from a story developed by Logan, Brent Spiner, and producer Rick Berman), and with music composed by Jerry Goldsmith. It is the tenth feature film in the Star Trek franchise, and the fourth and final film to star the cast from the television series Star Trek: The Next Generation. It follows the mission of the crew of the USS Enterprise-E as they are forced to
22:43:18 <alise_> deal with a threat to the United Federation of Planets from a Reman clone of Captain Picard named Shinzon who has taken control of the Romulan Star Empire in a coup.
22:43:36 <alise_> I watched First Contact a few days ago; really good film.
22:43:56 <AnMaster> alise_, unsure if I watched Nemesis or the one before that
22:44:16 <alise_> AnMaster: Both are (by very strong popular and fan opinion) terrible.
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22:44:29 <alise_> AnMaster: Sure it wasn't First Contact?
22:44:33 <alise_> That was TNG and good.
22:44:43 <AnMaster> alise_, I don't remember the story even
22:44:52 <alise_> AnMaster: First Contact saw Zefram Cochrane the drunkard.
22:44:55 <AnMaster> alise_, they found a copy of Data iirc?
22:45:08 <AnMaster> alise_, does that sound familar at all?
22:45:38 <AnMaster> alise_, it was of paramount importance to the plot
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22:45:46 <AnMaster> alise_, so should be easy to find
22:46:02 <AnMaster> if only I could remember the plot...
22:46:15 -!- coppro has joined.
22:46:15 <alise_> It was Nemesis you saw; I checked.
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22:46:25 <alise_> And if the opinion of anyone who's ever existed is anything to go by, you have terrible taste.
22:46:47 <AnMaster> alise_, I haven't watched any of the good movies, maybe that is why?
22:46:54 <Sgeo__> That sounds like an ep of TNG, not a movie
22:47:04 <Sgeo__> AnMaster, yeah yeah, I know
22:47:30 <AnMaster> Sgeo__, otherwise I would just cp the log file of this irc channel and claim it as a TNG episode
22:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, implementing Lazy K in Haskell seems like a very good idea.
22:48:37 <alise_> AnMaster: The good ones are, according to the Galaxy Quest-Amended Even-Odd Star Trek Movie Theory, backed up by fan opinion and IMDB ratings, The Wrath of Khan, The Voyage Home, The Undiscovered Country, First Contact, and Star Trek (2009).
22:48:55 <alise_> AnMaster: I can back up The Undiscovered Country and First Contact, and if this torrent gets off its fat, lazy ass, (2009).
22:49:10 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, 'coz Haskell totally ISN'T known for leaking memory like a sieve.
22:50:13 <alise_> I was simply remarking that Haskell is known to be a memory leaker.
22:50:41 <Sgeo__> I saw the Moriarty eps today
22:51:52 <AnMaster> alise_, was The Voyage Home the one they went back in time in?
22:52:09 <alise_> According to Wikipedia, it seems so.
22:52:09 <AnMaster> and Scotty(?) saying how quaint about a computer
22:52:14 <alise_> They went back in time in First Contact too.
22:52:47 <AnMaster> alise_, which one was the one with whales?
22:52:51 <alise_> The Voyage Home takes place in 2286, it seems.
22:53:06 <AnMaster> alise_, does it include _whales_
22:53:08 <alise_> AnMaster: I haven't seen one with whales.
22:53:24 <alise_> The Voyage Home had WALES.
22:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I can only assume that it's a Mandelbug, since I changed nothing.
22:53:30 <alise_> It might have also had Wales.
22:53:31 <AnMaster> alise_, yeah, awesome then, and somewhat commical
22:53:46 <AnMaster> alise_, since they went back to the 1990s or such
22:55:36 <alise_> Incidentally, here is my Twenty-Second "Tuvix": Tuvok and Neelix, in a horrific transporter accident, merge to form a funny, hardworking and caring genius. Everyone is horrified that life is so much better now, but gets used to it; apart from Kes, who is devestated that her awful Neelix is now much more bearable. Janeway decides to kill Tuvix. Tuvix protests. Janeway kills Tuvix anyway, and Neelix and Tuvok return. The end!
22:57:18 <cpressey> Please don't mention those names in my presence.
22:58:11 <alise_> cpressey: Allergic reaction?
22:58:23 <cpressey> Yes, much worse than I expected.
22:58:36 <cpressey> I must really hate that show, or something.
22:58:38 <alise_> cpressey: If you learn to control your emotions, Voyager becomes the highest point of comedy witnessed by any human being.
22:58:42 <cpressey> Not the show, so much as the characters.
22:58:43 <alise_> -- Just like a Vulcan would do!
22:59:02 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, when I try to run Lazier on stuff it says "K[#<procedure:curried>]"
22:59:17 <AnMaster> alise_, watched a few episodes of it
22:59:22 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: You're printing a procedure without calling it.
22:59:24 <alise_> AnMaster: My condolences.
22:59:35 <AnMaster> alise_, anyway, some were good
22:59:42 <AnMaster> not saying all were in any way
22:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, that really shouldn't be happening; it worked fine a while ago.
23:00:36 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: And now it does not.
23:01:03 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, and it does if I try with plt-r5rs rather than mzscheme.
23:01:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what is Lazier
23:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, Lazy K, since it supports the Iota and Jot notations as well as CC and Unlambda.
23:02:26 <cpressey> alise_: You know, I used to refer to "The X-Files" as "But Sculder".
23:02:57 <cpressey> Because, you know, it was always, "But Mulder, science!", then, "But Scully, evidence!"
23:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, written in slightly nonstandard Scheme, which seems to be at least part of the problem.
23:03:41 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: mzscheme is non-standard.
23:04:16 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, you should probably upgrade; PLT Scheme no longer exists, it's Racket now.
23:04:20 <Phantom_Hoover> (It was non-standard to start with; it had unquoted () and ifs without elses.)
23:04:40 <AnMaster> when I saw package name replacement
23:04:41 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: if without else is, I believe, standard; the return value is unspecific.
23:04:59 <cpressey> alise_: Wtf? I wish they'd stop doing that
23:05:12 <alise_> AnMaster: Because "PLT Scheme" is not very like a Scheme any more, it has diverged quite a lot; and they're sick of people considering it just a non-standard dialect of Scheme, rather than an independent language/platform.
23:05:18 <alise_> cpressey: Synonym of "Scheme".
23:05:31 <alise_> I don't have any problem wit hthe name change; they had good enough reasons.
23:05:51 <alise_> Indeed, I find myself respecting them more; they're creating a language, not butchering Scheme.
23:05:52 <AnMaster> alise_, does it still provide a r5rs implementation?
23:05:58 <cpressey> alise_: Groan. Can I now expect a bunch of 30's-gangster-lingo-inspired names for tools?
23:06:02 <alise_> AnMaster: Yes, along with all its other little languages.
23:06:11 <alise_> cpressey: No, they don't like naming their tools very creatively. :P
23:06:15 <alise_> Their web server is called "web-server".
23:06:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, use an up-to-date distro
23:06:31 <alise_> "X doesn't have some new software." "Change your entire operating system to Y."
23:06:35 <cpressey> alise_: Well there was that whole Mz*, Mr*, Dr* cutseyness they were doing...
23:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, what Scheme implementation would you recommend, then?
23:06:51 <alise_> cpressey: Oh, for once I'm going to tell you to cheer up. It's not a huge deal :P
23:06:54 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: mzscheme should be fine.
23:07:00 <AnMaster> <alise_> Their web server is called "web-server". <--- aww, they really need to use 30's-gangster-lingo-inspired names!
23:07:00 <alise_> Just use R5RS mode if you want to write Scheme.
23:07:49 <cpressey> alise_: I'm not that miffed by it, I've just been disappointed by the direction PLT has been going in since I first heard of it...
23:08:14 <alise_> cpressey: Where was it at that you wanted it to move in a different direction from?
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23:09:38 <Sgeo__> o.O at the nonexistant PLT Scheme
23:09:56 <Sgeo__> I can never spell that wrod
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23:10:18 <cpressey> alise_: It has seemed to get cheesier and less organized as time has passed. I dunno, maybe it's just my perception of it. They had a good thing with DrScheme, then overextended themselves, I think.
23:10:33 <alise_> cpressey: Perhaps, perhaps; such are things.
23:10:41 <AnMaster> hah, I got first to another word which actually exists!
23:13:00 <Sgeo__> My old computer teacher wants my help rewording an advertisement for programmers
23:13:04 <GreaseMonkey> tip of the day: wasd is not useful for navigating a text editor
23:13:09 <Sgeo__> And advice on where to post
23:13:21 <Sgeo__> Why she thinks I'm a manager-sort person, I have no idea
23:13:22 <GreaseMonkey> bear that in mind if you're editing a game's source code
23:13:45 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, um, I never found wasd sensible in games either
23:13:46 <Sgeo__> GreaseMonkey, fork vi!
23:14:08 <GreaseMonkey> but then i'd have to come up with terms which start with hjkl!
23:14:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster well, if you have the mouse in your right hand, using wasd is more convenient.
23:14:13 <alise_> Sgeo__: You don't have to do work for free.
23:14:15 <Sgeo__> AnMaster, same here until Portal, due to Active Worlds
23:14:29 <GreaseMonkey> "now you jearch for your thing, and if you're not happy you helete it"
23:14:43 <cpressey> "Racket programmers are Racketeers, of course."
23:14:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I use the trackpoint on my laptop
23:15:00 <Sgeo__> alise_, rewording something and knowing where to ask for programmers is actually a paying job somewhere?
23:15:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and on desktop I shift mouse regularly to avoid strain on either hand
23:15:11 <GreaseMonkey> so i have to somehow remip some crap for cube (implementing room-over-room here)
23:15:33 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, cube? as in the geometrical shape?
23:15:57 <alise_> Sgeo__: No, but that's irrelevant.
23:15:58 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, ah wasn't there are CUBE II?
23:16:07 <alise_> Sgeo__: You don't have to do shit like that for free.
23:16:14 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, so not using that?
23:16:36 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, better graphics iirc?
23:16:39 <Sgeo__> alise_, even if I wanted to help, which I do, I'd be clueless. She also suggested that I actually do work on this project, which I assume wouldn't be non-paying
23:16:40 <GreaseMonkey> the way i'm doing ROR is i'm adding in a way of rendering a middle slice
23:16:52 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, there you go then
23:17:12 <AnMaster> didn't like it, due to the fps nature
23:17:30 <Sgeo__> It's some stupid question thing. I vaguely suggested Django due to the builtin admin stuff :/
23:17:37 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, wtf is .kkrieger
23:18:18 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, many procedural textures?
23:18:21 <alise_> GreaseMonkey: they distribute the engine too
23:18:35 <alise_> AnMaster: it has high-quality graphics, too
23:18:41 <GreaseMonkey> yeah .kkrieger is really procedural or something
23:18:55 <fizzie> .werkkzeug is the name of the tool, right.
23:19:04 <alise_> AnMaster: Screenshot porn: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Kkrieger_screenshot_01.jpg
23:19:05 <fizzie> .theprodukkt is sort of the project.
23:19:18 <fizzie> It's by a demoscene group, somewhat unsurprisingly.
23:19:56 <AnMaster> alise_, their own screenshots look better
23:20:03 <GreaseMonkey> yuss i think i have remipping working or something
23:20:04 <alise_> Because they're the guys who do this kind of stuff on a competition-type schedule basis.
23:20:15 <alise_> AnMaster: who cares, it's 96 KiB, impressive no matter how you slice it
23:20:40 <fizzie> Right; also the stuffing stuff into tiny packages expertise is there.
23:20:40 <alise_> AnMaster: http://seboist64.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/kkrieger2.jpg
23:20:46 <alise_> even more impressive or whatever
23:20:46 <cpressey> does it have a scripting language
23:20:51 <alise_> fizzie: that's what i meant by this-kind-of-stuff
23:21:24 <alise_> no, it's just a procedural thingymabob generation tool (though it has a pseudo-language built in it seems)
23:22:48 <fizzie> I'm sure they have some sort of unreleased more-than-just-textures tool, internally; I mean, the one available from the site is called ".werkkzeug 3 TE", for "Texture Edition".
23:23:10 <fizzie> And .werkkzeug1 does all kinds of demo-things.
23:23:37 <GreaseMonkey> actually it needs some more tweaking but at least it kinda works!
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23:24:55 <fizzie> They also have that exe-packer, kkrunchy: http://www.farbrausch.de/~fg/kkrunchy/
23:26:19 <fizzie> There's trickery involved; there's a x86 disassembler-preprocessor-transmogrifier that does "stuff" to make the end result more compressible with LZ-family compression things.
23:27:32 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, keeping the whole input stream is probably a good idea...
23:28:38 <fizzie> That kkrunchy, and 4klang (a software synthesizer thing designed for 4k intros), were used in great many productions at the recent asm2010 thing; everyone's using the same tools nowadays.
23:30:59 <fizzie> And crinkler, too; it's an exe-packer specifically targeting the lucrative 4k market segment.
23:33:41 <fizzie> Well, if they didn't give it away free-as-in-beer, it'd be a moneymaker, I'm sure.
23:34:35 <fizzie> All this is for Windows, of course; it's the market leader there. (Possibly because they have that "import stuff from DLLs via ordinal"; shared-library ELFs have both horribly huge headers, and even if you trick past those you still need to include the full function name as a string. Those easily add up.)
23:36:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, those ordinals... wouldn't those change in new versions of dlls?
23:36:23 <fizzie> They try not to change existing ones, I think.
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23:36:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you import by name too?
23:36:56 <fizzie> You can, if you don't mind the bytes.
23:37:06 <fizzie> Importing by name might even be the default linker behaviour these days.
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23:38:51 <fizzie> I did recently crunch a not-exactly-optimized rotating OpenGL cube (21 imports from Xlib, libGL, libGLU; most with rather long names) into a 1024-byte executable, so I'm sure with enough effort you could get some sort of reasonable Linux 4k intro done. (I think there actually was one at asm2010, though not an especially impressive one. Maybe I should peek at how it was made.)
23:40:07 * Sgeo__ really likes the idea of Newspeak. Maybe if it settles down in 5-10 years, I'll fall in love
23:41:41 <pikhq> Conservapedia's denying relativity again.
23:42:04 <pikhq> Anti-Jesus conspiracy.
23:42:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, also, aren't they doing it all the time anyway
23:42:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, for quite some time they had a reasonable article on relativity.
23:42:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, that counterexamples page has been there for ages.
23:43:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm.
23:43:12 <pikhq> Still. Gah. Idjits.
23:44:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh, did they change it after that?
23:44:55 <cpressey> It's not that they deny the theory that's funny, it's that they do it because they associate it with social and/or moral relativism.
23:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, Schlafly's own brother has called him out on relativity and he hasn't listened.
23:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, that and the "Jesus showed action at a distance! The disciples had atomic clocks!"
23:45:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, who is Schlafly?
23:45:46 <cpressey> Well yes, that's it's own little sub-hilarity
23:45:53 <pikhq> cpressey: Well, yeah. There are actual legitimate claims against relativity. Such as how quantum mechanics doesn't work with it.
23:46:00 <pikhq> I think that's about it, actually.
23:46:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Schlafly also claims that Newtonian mechanics work fine if you "tweak" the inverse square law.
23:47:13 <Phantom_Hoover> He therefore demonstrates a lack of understanding of Newtonian mechanics, as well as relativity.
23:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, they tie Barack Obama, relativity and abortion all into the one counterexample.
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23:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It's more or less "Barack Obama helped write a paper which used relativity to justify abortion."