00:00:52 <AnMaster> anyone know how to pronounce this word? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svirfneblin
00:01:20 <AnMaster> I mean, it says at the page, but doesn't help much
00:02:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: Deep gnomes.
00:03:35 <AnMaster> it is the fn that is the main issue
00:03:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Two different syllables.
00:04:30 <AnMaster> how could sv be a problem to pronounce?
00:04:45 <pikhq> It's just a rhotic vowel followed by a consonant. :)
00:05:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah how do you pronounce it ?
00:05:26 <oerjan> herfnord and hampshire
00:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> You make an f sound, then move your tongue to make an n sound.
00:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, I suppose it's a bit more difficult if it's pronounced rhotically, but it's still possible.
00:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Use the time saying the "f" to move your tongue from the "r" position to the "n" position.
00:07:45 <Slereah> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Russell/Maya.jpg
00:08:02 <Slereah> Let's make an esolang out of that
00:08:52 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, I love how it says "in red" and is all black and white
00:09:36 * oerjan storfnyser av AnMasters manglende rfn-uttale
00:09:37 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, yet clearly it is a colour scan
00:09:53 <Gregor-P> AnMaster: I ... have no idea what you're referring to.
00:10:02 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, read the text below that image
00:10:15 <alise_> I like how you're randomly telling Gregor.
00:10:16 <AnMaster> how did I confuse Slereah and Gregor-P
00:10:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: you think i'm being too harsh? :D
00:10:49 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, I guess it was just something I expected you to link and say
00:10:56 <oerjan> (ok so i combined stor- and fnyser on the spot, it's still pronouncable)
00:11:03 <AnMaster> Slereah, okay, I love how it says "in red" and is all black and white'
00:11:15 <Gregor-P> Deewiant: Eh, we've all done worse.
00:11:24 <alise_> Flonk: not talking to you, you were just my unwilling victim :)
00:11:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes in Swedish it works
00:12:08 <Gregor-P> alise_: This seems to be an effective way to raise idlers from the dead :P
00:12:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, since "uttale" is not Swedish
00:12:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, and s/av/åt/ for Swedish
00:13:15 <alise_> Mathnerd314! jix! distant_figure! mtve! Boy are you guys gonna hate me!
00:13:15 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, I saw flonk speak earlier today
00:13:51 <oerjan> mind you "fnyser" probably only exists because it sounds funny, anyway
00:13:53 <Zuu> i balem Gregor-P too
00:14:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think it might be partly onemat<whatever>
00:14:56 <alise_> LET'S JUST PING EVERYONE LOL
00:15:00 <alise_> Zuu coppro Gregor-L yiyus__ distant_figure mtve SimonRC sshc Deewiant Leonidas Warrigal jix fungot myndzi cal153 Mathnerd314 MizardX Killerkid cpressey jcp Wamanuz3 oerjan cheater99 Phantom_Hoover alise_ CakeProphet sebbu Gregor-P Flonk relet AnMaster Sgeo__ BeholdMyGlory olsner pikhq Slereah lifthrasiir mycroftiv fizzie bsmntbombdood Quadrescence dbc comex rodgort yiyus_ EgoBot HackEgo clog Ilari ineir
00:15:01 <alise_> os Ilari_antrcomp chickenzilla
00:15:01 <fungot> alise_: you are right, and while it's not implemented yet so it'd be less-than-perfect.
00:15:19 <dbc> I noticed I have a metric ton of lovers.
00:15:20 <Gregor-P> alise_: Good thing you pinged HackEgo :P
00:15:28 <alise_> dbc: Metric FUCKton, I'll have you know.
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00:17:31 <oerjan> "he was crushed under a metric fuckton of lovers"
00:17:52 <alise_> our idlers are professionals, AnMaster. we cannot break their steely determination.
00:17:57 <oerjan> yeah it worked better when i did
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00:18:09 <alise_> too many people have me on ignore
00:18:30 <AnMaster> alise_, also MAYBE that means something
00:18:38 <AnMaster> if many people have you ignore
00:18:54 <alise_> Nobody has me on ignore right now.
00:18:55 <dbc> Anyway, I have to go. Will be back sometime or other :)
00:19:01 <alise_> (At least, nobody who talks at all, ever.)
00:19:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: there _was_ a norwegian comedy sketch about that, lemme check youtube
00:19:36 <cpressey> alise_: ... *I* have you on ignore right now!
00:19:46 <cpressey> In fact, I'm putting you ALL on ignore!
00:19:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, I like that Norwegian one about system upgrade from scrolls to book, and calling helpdesk
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00:20:05 <alise_> You're all so annoying. Even that card.freenode.net fellow.
00:20:06 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXa9yT3EcMU
00:20:26 <AnMaster> alise_, "Even that card.freenode.net fellow." <-- how so?
00:21:26 <alise_> AnMaster: They spammed me with some junk about Orson Scott Card when I connected!
00:22:40 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
00:23:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, periodic clicks in the sound
00:23:22 <AnMaster> and strange patterns in the image
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00:24:09 <oerjan> it was probably recorded at home by someone during the 70s-80s
00:26:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, why couldn't the Swede win ;P
00:26:42 <oerjan> well THAT musch is obvious
00:26:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, besides they all looked distinctly Norwegian
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00:30:46 <Gregor-P> Oerjan Scott Card. That is all.
00:31:28 <alise_> chickenzilla: Crazy idea. You may be a heathen.
00:33:35 <alise_> Whew, you pong. When was the last time you washed?!
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00:36:57 <AnMaster> alise_, no, not very funny at all
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00:41:56 <Gregor-P> YOU GUYS do you know the SIGNIFICANCE of Thursday?
00:42:21 <Gregor-P> HINT: It starts with "New Futur"!
00:42:24 <alise_> NO T-Rex! Tell me about the significance of Thursday!
00:43:14 <Gregor-P> Dude if I were T-Rex I'd be slashin' it up with Utahraptor RIGHT NOW.
00:43:41 * alise_ tries to remember if Utahraptor is the gay one or not
00:45:17 <alise_> Bronto needs some sweet lovin'
00:47:07 <Gregor-P> Her heart belongs to T-Rex (who stomps on it)
00:47:18 <alise_> Gregor-P: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1771 Evidently
00:47:24 <alise_> These relationships are polyamorous
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00:48:52 <alise_> I call Rule 34 on Dinosaur Comics.
00:50:21 <Gregor-P> DINOSAURS PROBABLY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE PENISES YOU GUYS THAT MAKES FOR LAME PORN
00:50:55 <alise_> rule34 images 10001-20000 (download torrent) - TPB
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00:50:56 <alise_> 31 Oct 2009... gary daily dinosaur comics dinosaur comics dromiceiomimus qwantz ..... plz google "rule 34" and it will become apparent to you what it ...
00:51:06 <alise_> Methinks that it exists.
00:51:42 <AnMaster> what is up with dinosaur comics
00:51:59 <alise_> 'S called guest comics
00:52:46 <alise_> Gregor-P: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5141335/rule34_images_10_001-20_000 Here, you download this and filter out only the Dinosaur Comics ones. XD
00:53:13 <AnMaster> alise_, what the fuck is that?
00:53:47 <alise_> Gregor-P: No, I searched "dinosaur comics rule 34" and all that came up was this http://rule34-images.paheal.net/_images/dd585ae25ea540c918685636b3ced97b/144209 - Alyx_Vance Dinosaur Half-Life_2 Half-life comic dino eli_vance gmod raptor.jpg (NSFW NSFM NSFany damn thing)
00:54:10 <alise_> AnMaster: I called rule 34 on dinosaur comics, Gregor tried to resist Googling it, I refused to be so petty, googled it, and found a torrent purporting to contain such material.
00:54:36 <AnMaster> not that I'm about to download it
00:54:39 <Gregor-P> alise_: I see no purporting of such.
00:55:08 <alise_> AnMaster: Hey, I have *dignity*!
00:55:15 <alise_> ...But not much! Downloading!
00:55:35 <alise_> DAMMIT, it's all in one big rar
00:55:43 <alise_> And there are ~no peers.
00:55:52 <AnMaster> I fail to combine them in one sentence, and I have problems combining it on one line
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01:00:58 <alise_> Gregor-P: Okay ... searching the keywords for dinosaur comics listed in that torrent I have found the source image.
01:01:00 <alise_> http://rule34-images.paheal.net/_images/b2422e6d9ebbae52053d084befb3c51f/280201 - Daily_Dinosaur_Comics Dinosaur_Comics Dromiceiomimus qwantz t-rex tehwalrus webcomic.JPG
01:01:09 <alise_> I cannot, in good conscience, recommend loading this URL.
01:02:39 * Sgeo__ should have checked out the URL before clicking
01:03:08 <alise_> It is possibly the worst drawn T-Rex penis I have ever seen tonight
01:03:28 <AnMaster> alise_, you seen ones before? ...
01:05:27 <Gregor-P> No such thing (probably) anyway :P
01:05:37 <alise_> Much to Gregor-P's dismay.
01:08:53 * Sgeo__ is tempted to use Cincom Smalltalk for the AW stuff
01:09:25 <Sgeo__> At least they have may have working FFI right now
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01:35:29 <Sgeo__> So, in another channel, I say "tyvm", and that's apparently an "SMSism"
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01:45:19 <Sgeo__> Not if you count Befunge, Brainfuck, Malbolge, Feather as being non-english
01:45:51 <Gregor-L> Some people speak other languages, but English is certainly the primary language.
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01:48:32 <pikhq> JneTOnope: 英語は普通の言語ですが、他の言語も良い。けど、他の言語が分からないかもしらない。
01:48:58 <pikhq> JneTOnope: English is the normal language, but other languages are OK. However, you probably won't be understood in other languages.
01:49:00 <JneTOnope> Ha non moi je voyais plus la langue de Flamel!
01:49:34 <JneTOnope> But no prob im gonna try in english!
01:50:51 <Sgeo__> Ha I saw no more the language of Flamel! according to Google Translate
01:50:56 <Gregor-L> Sgeo__: Good spotting there, captain.
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01:51:59 -!- Sgeo__ has changed nick to DeannaTroi.
01:52:17 <JneTOnope> Haha it's an exacte translate. But this is an expression im french.
01:53:13 <augur> what server does the logbot run off of?
01:53:47 <DeannaTroi> I don't see how clog would be able to respond, it's just a bot.
01:55:37 <Warrigal> Parlez-vous français? (I'm reasonably sure I'm not conjugating "parler" correctly. :P)
01:56:56 <pikhq> I speak not your cedelia-having craziness.
01:57:43 <AnMaster> JneTOnope, Ja andra språk kanske inte förstås av andra
01:57:45 <Warrigal> Je ne pas le parle. Sil vous le parlez, je ne pas t'aprende.
01:58:03 <Warrigal> I have a feeling that sometimes the "pas" does not go directly after the "ne". :P
01:58:11 <Warrigal> Any mistakes there, or am I on a roll?
01:58:25 <AnMaster> Warrigal, I think it may be "Je ne parle pas"
01:58:36 <AnMaster> but my French is rusty to say the least
01:59:08 <AnMaster> JneTOnope, I'm much better at Swedish than French
01:59:21 <AnMaster> I about exhausted my French knowledge already
01:59:36 <JneTOnope> I ve some problème with my swedish sorry.
01:59:51 <coppro> I'm still working on the second sentence
01:59:56 <AnMaster> coppro, are you sure about that le there
02:00:22 <coppro> parle is a verb; le is a pronoun referring to the antecedent
02:00:23 <Warrigal> Je ne savoi pas antes que je parle françois! There I'm pretty sure I'm conjugating "savoir" incorrectly.
02:00:41 <coppro> french often does <actor> <subject> <verb>
02:00:51 <AnMaster> no fscking clue about the declination or whatever of "parle"
02:01:05 <JneTOnope> You know thé rules better than me coppro ...
02:01:23 <coppro> Warrigal is right; le translates best as it
02:01:33 <coppro> leaving le out is like saying "I do not speak." vs. "I do not speak it."
02:01:53 <coppro> (except that "I do not speak." would be "Je ne parle pas."
02:02:06 <Warrigal> Or is that "je ne jamais parle pas"?
02:02:20 <coppro> Je n'a jamais parler, if I recall correctly
02:02:21 <Warrigal> "Jamais" is "never", I'm pretty sure.
02:02:49 <AnMaster> at least English only have one tricky verb, and that is "be"
02:02:58 <Warrigal> Where did the "pas" go there? Does "jamais" replace it?
02:03:01 <AnMaster> all the other ones are reasonably straight forward
02:03:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: One? Only one?
02:03:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, you do first/second/third persons and such the same for all verbs
02:03:31 <coppro> Warrigal: oh, I moved to a past tense. Je ne parle jamais would be a more appropriate tense, I think
02:03:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: We have tons of irregular verbs though.
02:03:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure, but not in the sense I meant
02:03:56 <Warrigal> The past is simply "a parler"? That's easy.
02:04:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is stuff like cut and so on
02:04:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is still "he cuts" not "he cuta"
02:04:19 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Germanic speaker -- you're familiar with strong verbs and hence you have fewer problems. :P
02:04:21 <Warrigal> What verb is "a"? "Avoir" comes to mind.
02:04:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes that I don't have a problem with. What I have a problem with is stuff like that I mentioned
02:04:54 <Warrigal> I'm mentally pronouncing "jamais" like the Spanish "jamáis" would be pronounced, which is probably totally wrong.
02:05:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: It *is* a problem for most learners of English.
02:05:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes to some degree it is a problem
02:05:29 <pikhq> (mostly because there's so *few* of them around that there doesn't seem to be a pattern)
02:05:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, but way less of a problem than "I am, you are, he/she/it is"
02:06:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, and there is only "be" that behaves quite as badly as that
02:06:45 <coppro> also, "If you were to speak French, I would not understand" is "Si vous parlerez francais, je ne vous comprenerais pas."
02:07:00 <AnMaster> otherwise it is the simple append s (or sometimes es, if plain s doesn't work)
02:07:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, and French has the le/la problem
02:08:33 <pikhq> Warrigal: Yes; they're pretty much all a class of verbs called "strong verbs". They're only considered irregular because English has lost most of its strong verbs, and so they seem to be exceptions to the rule, rather than having rules.
02:08:51 <pikhq> Warrigal: Other Germanic languages retain these to a much greater extent.
02:09:14 <Warrigal> Je n'a jamais estudier français, ignorant quand a leger Wikipedia.
02:09:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't strong verbs basically just mean irregular?
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02:09:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, I was under that impression in Swedish
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02:09:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Just more complex conjugation rules.
02:09:46 <Warrigal> pikhq: is there a way to guess whether a word is strong beyond simply looking at its past forms?
02:09:55 <coppro> Warrigal: jamais is like "ZHAM-eh", where ZH is same consonant sound as in Asia, and eh is similar to (but sharper than) the first vowel in lever
02:10:03 <pikhq> Warrigal: Past forms? Very much yes.
02:10:36 <pikhq> Warrigal: Does the word become past via a vowel change? If so, it's strong.
02:11:25 <pikhq> Warrigal: Oh, *beyond*.
02:11:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm quite certain "be" is more than just strong, it seems completely irregular
02:11:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: "be" is completely and utterly irregular.
02:12:16 <Warrigal> Do natural languages ever undergo a phase of having no irregularities?
02:12:42 <AnMaster> Warrigal, I doubt it, it is going to be left in stuff like be and other commonly used words
02:12:56 <AnMaster> because people can remember it
02:13:08 <Warrigal> I mean, when a language first emerges from the chaos, does it have a phase before irregularities ever develop?
02:13:13 <AnMaster> you wouldn't remember a pattern like "be" if it meant "scratch your head"
02:13:24 <AnMaster> because it wouldn't be used often enough
02:13:34 <Warrigal> "to wonder if one should run around aimlessly a bit"
02:13:58 <AnMaster> Warrigal, I doubt anyone today knows
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02:15:02 <Warrigal> Languages do emerge from the chaos every so often.
02:15:09 <Warrigal> I think the most recent one was Nigaraguan Sign Language.
02:16:20 <AnMaster> Warrigal, constructed languages is where you should look for all regular
02:16:54 <Warrigal> Though, strangely, it has a single word for "my name is" that is not used for sentences like "his name is" or "my dog is".
02:17:16 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> Though, strangely, it has a single word for "my name is" that is not used for sentences like "his name is" or "my dog is". <-- what the fuck?
02:17:45 <Warrigal> DeannaTroi: yeah, before "uorygl".
02:17:59 <JneTOnope> Che cazzo dite?!! Parlate italiano minchia!!
02:18:30 <Warrigal> Lo siento, mi italiano es peor que mi francés.
02:18:47 <Warrigal> Mi esperanto es aún peor que mi italiano.
02:18:50 <AnMaster> Nä nu får det vara nog me alla dessa sörlänningars språk, lite gammal hederlig Svenska eller Norska nu!
02:19:38 <Warrigal> Mi sueco es aún peor que mi esperanto.
02:19:40 <DeannaTroi> "lo" used to have a very specific meaning in Lojban. Now, it means whatever you want it to mean
02:19:47 <JneTOnope> E parlo spagnolo comme una vacca tedesca..
02:19:57 <AnMaster> <DeannaTroi> "lo" used to have a very specific meaning in Lojban. Now, it means whatever you want it to mean <-- huh?
02:20:29 <Warrigal> AnMaster: "lo gerku" used to mean "a/the dog". Now it means "that which is related to dogs somehow, or which I felt like referring to using the word 'dog' for some reason".
02:20:57 <AnMaster> Warrigal, huh, can a language like that develop
02:21:24 <DeannaTroi> Lojban is a constructed language </DeannaTroi>
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02:21:34 <Warrigal> Eh, it's like every "the" has scare quotes after it.
02:21:42 <Warrigal> "lo gerku" now means "the 'dog'".
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02:21:56 <Warrigal> Zuu: your cloak is ineffective.
02:22:00 <Sgeo> ma mo ma ma ma ma
02:22:12 <AnMaster> * Zuu (zuu@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk) has joined #esoteric
02:22:12 <AnMaster> * Zuu has quit (Changing host)
02:22:12 <AnMaster> * Zuu (zuu@unaffiliated/zuu) has joined #esoteric
02:22:50 * Sgeo puts AnMaster to sleep
02:23:38 <Warrigal> Sgeo, I have to wonder if you found #jbopre too scary for your taste. >.>
02:23:57 <Sgeo> Warrigal, I just forgot about its existence, is all
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02:29:14 <Warrigal> So, I find that for my codenomic, I'm looking for a scripting language whose entire state is easily made persistent. Does anyone have any recommendations?
02:30:13 <Warrigal> JavaScript doesn't really seem to have that, you see.
02:30:43 <coppro> dump variables and eval
02:31:02 <Warrigal> Yeah, the "dump variables" part is the hard-sounding part.
02:32:18 <Sgeo> Seriously, except for GNU Smalltalk, that's practically what Smalltalk _is_
02:32:37 <Sgeo> Except maybe for the scripting language part
02:32:48 <Warrigal> If it's dynamic and has an API, it's a scripting language.
02:32:54 <pikhq> In all honestly, Smalltalk.
02:32:58 <oerjan> Warrigal: actually i think the past is "a parlé", not "a parler"
02:33:01 <Warrigal> Embarrassingly, I didn't know Python had an API until now.
02:33:33 <Warrigal> Does Smalltalk also have security, like callbacks when one person's code tries to read someone else's data?
02:34:03 <Sgeo> Ah, um... you could probably write code that does that
02:34:21 <pikhq> Depends, but likely.
02:34:52 * Sgeo wonders what weird thisContext-related magic would be required to accomplish the security though
02:35:37 <Sgeo> I'm certain it's theoretically possible, though. It might be easy, might not be
02:36:11 <Sgeo> Of course, we could all just learn Newspeak, but IMO it's too... new
02:37:01 <Warrigal> http://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual/html_node/Security.html#Security
02:37:15 <Warrigal> Conclusion: GNU Smalltalk is inherently, inalienably insecure. :P
02:37:17 <Sgeo> Don't use GNU Smalltalk
02:37:31 <Sgeo> Not for that reason, though. It's not image-based
02:37:44 <Sgeo> And has extra syntax stuff
02:38:04 <Sgeo> Um, if Magma works on GNU Smalltalk, I guess it would be usable
02:38:28 <pikhq> GNU Smalltalk is weird, and it smells funny.
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02:40:07 <Warrigal> Sgeo: so, what implementation would you recommend?
02:40:40 <Sgeo> Unless there's some implementation that I don't know about that has object-capability-based security, Pharo
02:40:52 <Sgeo> It's nice and open-sourced under the MIT license
02:42:40 <Warrigal> I'm tempted to implement JavaScript myself. :P
02:42:51 <Warrigal> That can be, like, a neat little side project or something.
02:45:13 * Sgeo once again pushes towards Smalltalk
02:45:21 <Sgeo> I'm a bit obsessed
02:46:18 <Warrigal> Familiarity with JavaScript made me gravitate toward it!
02:55:11 <Sgeo> Hmm, RandalSchwartz suggests that locking things down might be very difficult
02:55:20 <Sgeo> <RandalSchwartz> as an exercise, someone put up a Seaside image that in theory had a "safe" smalltalk execution window. And after six attempts to lock it down, based on friendly feedback from squeak-dev, it was taken down and declared a failure.
02:56:44 <Sgeo> Well, do you actually need users to be able to try code on the image?
02:57:02 <Warrigal> That is pretty much *the* feature that I need.
02:57:16 <Warrigal> My codenomic doesn't need to have any other features. :P
02:59:35 <Sgeo> Warrigal, get in #squeak
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04:34:11 <Sgeo> Warrigal, so Smalltalk prettyprettyplease?
04:34:35 <coppro> Sgeo: Write Smalltalk -> llvm
04:35:12 <Warrigal> I'm asking myself to go with JavaScript about the same way as you're asking me to go with Smalltalk.
04:37:50 <Sgeo> Going to take my sleepysleepynightnight pills now
04:38:47 <Sgeo> Benadryl + Melatonin
04:38:58 <Sgeo> Dad suggested it. I'm assuming it's ok
04:39:30 <Warrigal> I would guess that melatonin doesn't really interact with anything. When in doubt, ask a pharmacist.
04:40:10 <Sgeo> My dad's a doctor, so
04:41:22 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp3-beginning.pdf Have some sheet music y'all!
04:46:14 <Sgeo> You could always go Lua
04:46:20 <Sgeo> Has great sandboxing capabilities
04:46:58 <Sgeo> Although I don't know how easy it would be to protect interactions with others code
04:54:08 * Sgeo begins imagining how exactly he'd sandbox Smalltalk stuff
04:54:28 <Sgeo> Have a root class and its metaclass have an inaccessible class
04:54:37 <Sgeo> Scan for and forbid primitives
04:55:15 <Sgeo> Intercept messages, make sure that the only thing that can access instance variables is itself
04:57:30 <Sgeo> Disconnecting soon
04:57:47 <Warrigal> It sounds a lot easier with SpiderMonkey.
04:58:38 <Sgeo> Can you write the protections in Javascript?
04:58:40 <Warrigal> Well, you don't have to examine the code; you can just have a callback.
04:59:12 <Sgeo> I'm.. sure that's somehow doable in Smalltalk
04:59:28 <Sgeo> Instance variables should be the easiest to protect thing
05:00:58 <Sgeo> Yep, just intercept instVarAt:
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05:02:47 <SgeoN1> I should put the phone down and sleep
05:03:08 <SgeoN1> Ill do that right now, in fact
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05:11:14 <oerjan> xkcd seems to be going for the wtf lately
05:16:15 <Warrigal> Since over fifteen minutes ago, the nick lengths of the people who speak have steadily been increasing in increments of two.
05:16:20 <Warrigal> I wonder how long this pattern will continue.
05:16:51 <Warrigal> Now it's just sort of oscillating. :P
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06:31:05 <Gregor> I need to reorganize my music page ... eventually for every piece I'll have OGG, MP3, FLAC, DPR, DPR-pedal, PDF, RG and Ly files. That's a lot of files! Hard to make them all accessible and yet not just be a confusing mess.
06:58:01 <Gregor> People say that quite often in fact.
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10:34:09 <Flonk> good morning everyone.
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12:59:15 <Sgeo> You weren't using Smalltalk?
13:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I'm really compiling to Lazy K from the lambda calculus.
13:01:13 <Sgeo> Esolangs are exempted from the "It needs to be Smalltalk" rule that I unilaterally claim is in place
13:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem was that I was appending the arrays incorrectly.
13:06:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose it could be because it's trying to evaluate the input before it does any output...
13:07:34 <AnMaster> Sgeo, no, it needs to be haskell
13:08:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you translate the SKI calculus straight into Haskell?
13:10:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: Remember the discussion the other day about Linux/ELF wasting space for linking functions by name always? I recently saw a rather crafty trick to work around that; description follows, but will take me a while to write.
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13:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (bind (return str) putstr) works as expected, so I suppose there's hope.
13:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Or maybe not, since that could imply that it's a problem with the base language, not my code.
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13:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Now (bind (putstr str) return) works properly as well, so now I just need to try composing IO actions.
13:16:48 <fizzie> See, there's this "DT_DEBUG" tag you can put to an ELF file's dynamic section, and if it is there, the dynamic linker will put the (runtime) address of a r_debug struct in there.
13:17:02 <fizzie> One of the components of r_debug is a linked-list chain of r_map structures, one for each loaded library object. In the r_map, there's (among other stuff) the base address where the library was loaded (this time), and a pointer to the library's dynamic section.
13:17:18 <fizzie> So, the trick is to put only the libs you want as "DT_NEEDED" values into your dynamic section, but to include no symbol table or symbol relocs at all.
13:17:33 <fizzie> Instead, there's a table of hash values (say 4-byte ones) of all the symbols you want to look up. Then at the entry point there's a bit of code that goes through the library chain, the symbol table of each library, hashes thesymbol names there, and compares against your table.
13:17:57 <fizzie> If the hashes match, it adds the library base from r_map to the symbol value, and replaces it in the table.
13:18:12 <fizzie> Then you can use those values as function pointers to call the functions.
13:18:37 <fizzie> Of course it assumes there won't be any hash conflicts, but there "probably" won't be, at least unless you link to a whole lot of libs.
13:20:26 <fizzie> The entry point code takes about a hundred bytes; what you save depends on things like how much better the names would compress than the hashes (probably somewhat), how many symbols you need, and so on.
13:22:10 <fizzie> I disassembled this stuff out of the Linux 4k asm2010 entry -- http://sprunge.us/KVeb -- but it turns out it's using someone else's code, that's borrowed from yet another someone else, and those are freely available somewhere. Still, I don't mind the exercise.
13:22:30 <fizzie> (That linker bit is also a bit suboptimal; mine is few bytes smaller.)
13:23:25 <fizzie> And of course the whole DT_DEBUG only works with glibc's dynamic linker. The ELF spec says of the tag: "DT_DEBUG: This member is used for debugging. Its contents are not specified for the ABI; programs that access this entry are not ABI-conforming."
13:24:06 <fizzie> (It's officially used by gdb to grok the dynamic linking environment better.)
13:24:28 <fizzie> Phew, that was quite a monologue.
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13:29:02 <fizzie> Apparently there's a pile of Linux 1k intros, all using this thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKX1wKUIzyc and also Th0WBoevI9Y .. viqkXLxaVxo .. eD3JMvCY6hE
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13:29:11 <fizzie> They're all pretty one-effect-only, but, well, 1k.
13:29:12 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
13:32:14 <fizzie> Also no soundtrack, which is a shame, but perhaps also understandable.
13:33:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, /dev/dsp should be more than enough for these purposes
13:33:40 <fizzie> You still need code to actually make the sort of sounds people would like to listen to.
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13:34:10 <fizzie> Windows 1k's are again more impressive-looking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMaNxyHhH6A
13:48:23 * Sgeo impatiently waits for new Futurama to be posted
13:52:44 <Sgeo> In the meantime, I'll try watching some SGU
13:54:08 <alise> 18:31:02 <Warrigal> Yeah, the "dump variables" part is the hard-sounding part.
13:54:12 <alise> you can iterate through objects
13:54:54 * Sgeo would rather Smalltalk
13:55:09 <alise> yes, but you're in your obsession phase and thus are best ignored for such opinions
13:55:18 <alise> (I did some work on a SmallNomic at one point...)
13:55:47 <Sgeo> Has my obsession for a language ever been as strong as now?
13:56:16 <alise> No, but that's just because you're being a neophile; Smalltalk is very different.
13:56:21 <alise> It has many flaws.
13:56:35 -!- AnMaster has changed nick to Vorpal.
13:57:58 <Sgeo> Not compiled, might be a bit slow? Ok, what are some actual flaws?
13:57:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, explain what?
13:58:10 <Sgeo> Oh, and no object-capabilities
13:58:19 <Sgeo> Which is why I'm looking forward to Newspeak someday
13:58:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I decided to try a new nick, got tried of my old one
13:58:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it isn't like that is unknown to happen
13:58:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, .... look in scrollback, some 10 lines up
13:59:01 <Vorpal> and see what I changed from
13:59:10 <Vorpal> then stop acting stupid
14:00:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm none, I meant that it wasn't unknown for it to happen in general
14:00:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, at one point yes
14:00:37 <alise> ehird → tusho → ehird → alise
14:00:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it was fairly arbitrary
14:01:03 <alise> I seem to have stuck with alise, though; the confusion it occasionally causes is worth it.
14:01:31 <Vorpal> hm that fits with alise
14:01:36 <Vorpal> unintentional actually
14:01:52 <Vorpal> should be alice for that to work best though
14:02:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hatter.
14:02:30 <Vorpal> ah mad hatter is registered
14:02:51 -!- alise has changed nick to borogove.
14:03:19 -!- Phantom_Hatter has changed nick to Mome_rath.
14:03:47 -!- borogove has changed nick to slithytove.
14:03:55 -!- Mome_rath has changed nick to Wabe.
14:04:10 -!- Wabe has changed nick to Bandersnatch.
14:04:21 -!- slithytove has changed nick to Jabberwock.
14:04:30 <Jabberwock> I have jaws that bite, and claws that catch!
14:04:41 -!- Bandersnatch has changed nick to JubJub_bird.
14:04:57 -!- Jabberwock has changed nick to alise.
14:05:10 <alise> Vorpal: Too late, I'm alise now.
14:05:15 -!- JubJub_bird has changed nick to Tum-tum.
14:05:16 <Vorpal> alise, indeed I saw that
14:05:24 -!- Tum-tum has changed nick to Tum-tum_tree.
14:05:32 <Sgeo> alise, what are Smalltalk's flaws?
14:05:34 <alise> You know, I'm not alise_human.
14:05:40 <alise> You can just say Tum-tum.
14:05:43 <alise> Sgeo: I'll explain later.
14:05:48 -!- Tum-tum_tree has changed nick to Snark.
14:06:13 <alise> Hey, I just realised.
14:06:16 <alise> I'm Alise in Wonderland.
14:06:22 -!- Snark has changed nick to Boojum.
14:06:32 <Vorpal> alise, I said that above
14:06:37 * Sgeo decides that alise is slow
14:06:41 <alise> Bellman is used :(
14:06:57 <Boojum> Someone switch to "Baker", if possible.
14:06:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and yes, I agree with you
14:07:11 <Vorpal> you think anyone is that insane :P
14:07:35 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to Vorpal_.
14:07:36 -!- alise has changed nick to Baker.
14:07:39 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
14:07:51 <Vorpal> there, since I'm likely switching to this as my main nick
14:07:54 -!- Baker has left (?).
14:08:06 <Boojum> That should have been soft and sudden.
14:08:08 -!- alise has joined.
14:08:15 <Vorpal> <Boojum> That should have been soft and sudden.
14:08:18 -!- Boojum has changed nick to Phantom_Hatter.
14:08:34 <alise> did my part message come through?
14:08:37 <alise> * You have left channel #esoteric ("for the Snark WAS a Boojum, you see")
14:09:00 <Sgeo> The SGU pilot seems rather... different. High-quality visually, or something
14:09:15 <alise> Sgeo: Well, if you're watching it in HD, that would explain it.
14:09:26 <alise> It is very high-budget.
14:12:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is SGU here?
14:12:16 <Sgeo> Stargate Universe
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14:35:55 <Sgeo> In 5 years or so, we should make a Newspeak nomic!
14:36:19 <Sgeo> I'm more enamored with the idea of Newspeak than I am Smalltalk, but it's nowhere near ready for use with anything right now IMO
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14:40:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you make less sense than zzo atm
14:40:56 <Vorpal> we can't be having with that
14:41:14 <Sgeo> Nothing I said should have been unintelligable
14:41:20 <Sgeo> To someone with the power of Google
14:42:01 <Sgeo> Actually, Newspeak's kind of hard to Google for. Here's a hint: It's a programming language. Nother hint: Related to smalltalk. Full explanation: It's object-capability based
14:42:27 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I knew only about the 1984 sense of that word
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14:44:18 <Sgeo_> Well, I love it when my Internet connection disconnects for no apparent reason. Don't you?
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14:52:31 <Sgeo_> I assume the show after SGU will have 10-chevron addresses?
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15:13:47 <alise> Afternoon, cpressey.
15:14:03 <Sgeo_> alise, why not? That's been the pattern, hasn't it? from 7 (normal) to 8 to 9
15:14:17 <Sgeo_> Maybe the 10th chevron leads to parallel universes
15:14:29 <alise> Sgeo_: Because "Air, Part 1" states there is only one 9-chevron address.
15:14:42 <alise> "THE" nine-chevron address found in the Ancient database,
15:15:18 <Sgeo_> Going to watch from the top
15:15:22 <alise> and the fact that when they fix their 9-chevron dialing in Air, Part 1 it still leads to the same place where the "intended" dialing would go ... or something
15:15:29 <alise> Sgeo_: have you watched Air, Part 1 yet?
15:15:32 <alise> if not IGNORE PREVIOUS MESSAGE
15:15:38 <alise> (not a huge spoiler, but eh)
15:15:49 <Sgeo_> I'm looking for a different source right now
15:15:57 <Sgeo_> Since YouTube took down one of the parts apparently
15:16:00 <alise> Sgeo_: I know a torrent of an HD version of episodes 1-10...
15:17:32 <alise> Does your father say torrents are bad, too? x_x
15:18:48 <Sgeo_> I say I don't like torrents. Too slow, and too difficult to get one ep at a time
15:19:06 <alise> Because you have a shitty, shitty ISP that blocks torrent traffic.
15:19:28 <alise> Popular torrents regularly download at 800 KiB/s for me, and I don't have a very good connection.
15:19:40 <alise> Sgeo_: Difficult to get one ep? Excuse me, you just only check the box for that one episode.
15:19:53 <alise> Open a .torrent in Transmission, it lists all the files, click the outermost folder to decheck everything, check the one episode.
15:20:16 <Sgeo_> And then how long does it take to get that one ep?
15:20:33 <alise> <alise> Hahaha, too slow.
15:20:35 <alise> <alise> Because you have a shitty, shitty ISP that blocks torrent traffic.
15:20:35 <alise> <alise> Popular torrents regularly download at 800 KiB/s for me, and I don't have a very good connection.
15:21:35 <alise> The HD SGU rip is around 100 KiB/s for me, but that's because my upload isn't very good, making other clients dislike me, and because I insisted on getting the Blu-Ray rip rather than a saner, better-seeded HDTV rip.
15:22:22 <alise> Sgeo_: If your connection can handle it, very-well-seeded torrents surpass any other kind of download except perhaps crazy metalink madness; you can download your favourite version of Ubuntu at something like 40 MiB/s.
15:23:07 <Sgeo_> There's also the issue of disk space...
15:23:20 <alise> How much of it do you have?
15:26:45 <Sgeo_> 2.36GB. A bit more than I thought
15:27:33 <alise> I didn't realise Active Worlds took up so much space.
15:27:38 <alise> (Either that or you own the World's Smallest Hard Disk.)
15:28:37 <Sgeo_> I'm using about 6GB to store AW cache files. I could delete them, but I'm a cache pack rat
15:29:38 <alise> Jesus christ, you are insane.
15:30:11 * Sgeo_ isn't Jesus Christ.
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15:40:13 <fizzie> Sgeo_: I do note that you did not object to the "insane" bit.
15:40:57 <alise> pikhq: Heh, ClickToFlash uses YouTube's for-iPhone H.264 files to play without Flash. Sounds like an interesting route; FLV is pretty shit.
15:43:04 <alise> Oh, it's just ?fmt=18.
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15:48:34 <Sgeo_> Off to watch SGU pilot
15:49:04 <alise> Sgeo_: Parts 1 & 2?
15:49:09 <alise> Part 1 isn't the pilot, just the cut syndication version.
15:52:51 <alise> It seems that Google Public DNS' FAQ never actually says "No, we won't log your requests."
15:53:39 <alise> What information does Google log when I use the Google Public DNS service?
15:53:40 <alise> Google Public DNS complies with Google's main privacy policy, which you can view at our Privacy Center. With Google Public DNS, we collect IP address (only temporarily) and ISP and location information (in permanent logs) for the purpose of making our service faster, better and more secure. Specifically, we use this data to conduct debugging, to analyze abuse phenomena and to improve our prefetching feature. After 24 hours, we erase any IP information. For
15:53:40 <alise> more information, read the Google Public DNS privacy page.
15:54:18 <cpressey> "Location information" in this case means, of course, which room of your house you were in when you made the request
15:54:43 <alise> And also the location of your body, e.g. whether or not you were wearing clothes.
15:56:26 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/zaOpT.png
15:58:35 <alise> OpenDNS resolves www.google.com as google.navigation.opendns.com.
15:58:57 <alise> wrt a problem related to it: "We're going to fix this ASAP. This happens if you have shortcuts enabled in your account. A temporary fix is to turn off shortcuts. A permanent fix will be put in place tomorrow morning."
15:59:14 <alise> So you can disable it, but... between that and the shitty ad-search you get on an unresolved domain by default:
15:59:15 <alise> Fuck it, I'll take Google.
15:59:19 <alise> Or whatever namebench suggests.
16:01:13 <alise> Wow, a Tk interface that /doesn't/ make me want to puke.
16:01:15 <alise> Looks like it uses Tile.
16:02:31 <alise> DUN QUERY THE LOT YO
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16:17:45 <Zuu> Warrigal, my cloak was very effective with regards to the reason i got it.
16:18:10 <alise> "...Sexy reasons."
16:18:13 <Zuu> It even led to fixing of the ircd
16:19:30 <Zuu> i got the cloak for the reason of testing if peoples hostmasks could change silently, which i found that they could
16:19:53 <Zuu> later the ircd guis decided to fix that 'problem'
16:21:18 <Zuu> i really dont care if people have my IP, in fact i might get more visitors on my website if i cared to remove my cloak
16:22:13 <Gregor> Now they do a fake reconnect thing.
16:22:40 <Zuu> Gregor, i couldnt come up with a better solution, other than altering the protocol
16:22:42 <alise> It's Freenode, of course they're crazy.
16:22:59 <alise> Zuu: How about as a nick change?
16:23:12 <alise> * Zuu!old@host is now known as Zuu!new/host
16:23:23 <Zuu> that wouldnt suggest a change of the actual host part of the hostmask
16:23:45 <Zuu> anyone on the network
16:24:05 <alise> It does to humans.
16:24:50 <Zuu> we both know that not only humans are connected to this network :)
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16:25:17 <alise> Zuu: I also know not of a single bot that cares to know when someone's hostname changes, rather than just looking it up when required.
16:25:35 <Zuu> my bot would care
16:25:38 <oerjan> bots may be fine, but what about all the _clients_?
16:25:44 <Zuu> now you know of at least one, hence i tested it ;)
16:25:59 <oerjan> they might be trying to understand nicks too, and not expect !'s in them
16:26:21 <oerjan> (or their relevant commands)
16:27:01 <alise> fair enough, I just don't think it's a Big Deal
16:27:05 <alise> I also think cloaks are stupid.
16:27:27 <alise> I'd just make the ircd not display any IPs, what's the point of revealing them?
16:27:48 <oerjan> making it possible to ban people?
16:28:07 <alise> oerjan: Cloaks stop that anyway; banning with cloaks ~= banning an account
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16:29:36 <oerjan> well. i expect ordinary bans are not the main defense against people "clever" enough to manipulate their irc identity, anyway.
16:29:49 <oerjan> (not that i actually _know_)
16:30:14 <alise> manipulate? cloaks are officially supported :-P
16:30:15 <pikhq> It's more that bans send a message: "Go the fuck away. Seriously."
16:30:17 <alise> you just ask for one
16:30:27 <alise> yeah, circumventing bans is really awfully easy
16:30:30 <oerjan> alise: manipulate by changing things after being banned, duh
16:30:50 <alise> oerjan: you mean... not identifying to your account (if using cloaks)?
16:30:53 <cpressey> the sad thing is when even that message is unreceived
16:31:12 <oerjan> or getting a new account
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16:32:03 <oerjan> those are the obvious ways to me, anyway
16:39:42 <cpressey> I played ZAngband again last night. After not playing it for ... well, years.
16:40:22 <cpressey> That's all. I don't have anything interesting to say about it.
16:40:35 <alise> Is it any good? :P
16:41:25 <cpressey> It's a bit annoying on a laptop keyboard where you have to Fn your way to a pseudo-numeric-keypad.
16:42:44 <cpressey> I guess, as far as Moriaoids go, it's my favourite. Even though I'm rather meh about Zelanzy proper.
16:47:33 <alise> Hey hey, this is a goood idea
16:48:16 <cpressey> Lazy zen, where the sound of one hand clapping is merely regarded as a partial evaluation of the act of clapping
16:48:42 <alise> Gah, where's that nomic ...
16:51:24 <alise> You know: That one nomic.
16:51:49 <oerjan> one nomic to bind them all?
16:52:29 <Sgeo_> alise, in 5 years, want to help with NewspeakNomic?
16:53:23 <alise> Sgeo_: I believe your opinion on Newspeak is terribly wrong, but also that Newspeak Nomic is not a very interesting idea.
16:53:51 <Sgeo_> How am I terribly wrong about Newspeak?
16:54:38 <alise> I believe your opinion that "Newspeak isn't ready for use for anything" is wrong; things are not not-ready-for-use merely because they are young, and Newsqueak rests on the shoulders of giants -- i.e. Squeak -- meaning it inherits all the useful things from Squeak.
16:54:43 <alise> Therefore there is no particular reason Newsqueak is not ready for use.
16:54:59 <alise> Newspeak the language itself is relatively solid and I see no reason not to consider it mature.
16:55:19 <alise> Indeed, Newsqueak is probably not very useful; but that is only because Squeak itself is not very useful, with its detached-world philosophy.
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16:56:01 <Sgeo_> Isn't the syntax still undergoing changes?
16:56:06 <alise> I also believe that real-world-usefulness of a language is /completely and utterly irrelevant/ for nomic. It's a bloody game.
16:56:37 <alise> Sgeo_: I don't know; I don't think it's undergoing /significant/ syntactic revision, if it is undergoing any at all; and besides, Newsqueak probably won't catch up to the changes for a while if it's changing a lot.
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17:04:12 <alise> cpressey: Reference to the GOO language, I hope!
17:04:34 <cpressey> The impression I got is that the creators of Newspeak want it to become smaller over time. If they're also ignoring the idea of a release cycle and just saying "the syntax is subject to change", they're dead in the water w.r.t. "real world usefulness".
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17:05:01 <alise> cpressey: I think they're more trying out syntax theoretically, rather than actually fucking with the prototype language.
17:05:03 <cpressey> alise: It wasn't, but if there is such a language, I change my vote!
17:08:06 <alise> cpressey: http://googoogaga.org/
17:08:30 <alise> cpressey: It's a "theoretical-style OOP" (i.e. not Javaesque) Lisp-syntaxed typed thingy.
17:08:39 <alise> Sorta (pretty) dormant, but there you go.
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17:12:51 <alise> cpressey: Wha? GOO is great.
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17:14:25 <cpressey> The article on "Why" is completely non-compelling.
17:17:39 <alise> Whatever; it's interesting and that's that.
17:18:44 <alise> cpressey: It's not like it has a shitty object system; typed multimethods.
17:19:39 <alise> cpressey: It also uses Smalltalk-style save images, avoiding e.g. file IO.
17:20:38 <cpressey> I have failed to find an article so far on that site that actually informs me of "what the deal is with the language", so to speak.
17:21:16 <alise> Bad at justifying themselves != bad
17:21:33 <alise> http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/goo-intro.pdf gets close, I guess.
17:23:13 <cpressey> Predicate types -- I assume this means not statically checked
17:23:33 <cpressey> (Based on, if they were statically checked, they would say "dependent types")
17:27:11 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
17:27:32 <cpressey> No, apparently, "Internal correctness checks (e.g., typechecking) to avoid errors"
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17:31:53 <Gregor-W> Freenode webchat introduced a capcha. Since when has re-capcha presented only non-words?
17:32:40 <alise> I sure hope you accept Unicode, bitch.
17:32:59 <alise> Apparently indeed.
17:33:12 <alise> Gregor: What do you mean, non-words?
17:33:22 <alise> Ah, the fact that the words don't make any sense?
17:33:30 <alise> I got "said" just now.
17:33:41 <Gregor-W> The fact that they're not English words.
17:34:12 <alise> Two guesses: (a) Foreign (they appear to be in a different style to some English words, suggesting a foreign-language book); (b) litmus tests to see how accurate the enterer is at transcribing the words
17:34:14 <Gregor-W> "varrify" "joicang" "woodles" <-- three words I just snagged
17:34:24 <alise> (e.g. if you transcribed "fijrg verily" as "penis penis", it'd reject it)
17:34:25 <Gregor-W> "varrify" is obviously just a tpyo
17:34:48 <Gregor-W> Well recaptcha is the clever one that includes one word they know and one word they're trying to farm out the OCR on.
17:34:48 <alise> Gregor-W: Time for Jabberwocky 2: Electric Boogaloo.
17:35:11 <Gregor-W> It makes me feel dirty and used and yet I respect it.
17:35:26 <alise> Gregor-W: They only know it from other people, though.
17:36:03 <Gregor-W> (UNRELATED) It amuses me that LilyPond's motto is "Music notation for everyone"
17:36:11 <Gregor-W> When really it's "Music notation for people who can figure out TeX"
17:36:55 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, I think I like this show
17:37:09 <alise> The joicang woodles varrified / as finett aspions, excurely / lownsanned mummium.
17:37:09 <alise> Tremen parosides scantr / while isixing coucrics havese / and torkne offmanes grasik.
17:37:15 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Yeah, why are music tools for Linux so crap?
17:37:22 <cpressey> Gregor-W: I blame you, of course.
17:37:22 <alise> cpressey: Uh, LilyPond is excellent.
17:37:32 <Gregor-W> cpressey: LilyPond is fucking amazing.
17:37:58 <alise> I don't do music, but if I did, fuck yeah, LilyPond. Extremely high-quality typesetting of musical notation, no fucking with stupid GUIs.
17:38:14 <cpressey> I've wasted I don't know how many hours now just trying to get Rosegarden to run.
17:38:14 <Gregor-W> alise: I need a GUI for inputting music :P
17:38:46 <Gregor-W> Yeah. I've gotten used Rosegarden. It's not great ... I actually output LilyPond from Rosegarden, then make changes to that. To keep that maintainable I keep the whole thing in an hg repo with the original and modified in different branches X_X
17:39:34 <Gregor-W> Really what helps the most in Rosegarden is just MIDI input :P
17:39:44 <Gregor-W> It's basically just sufficient to allow me to input from MIDI, then output LilyPond :P
17:40:08 <cpressey> My computer can play video no problem, oh but to deal with MIDI, I need a "kernel that supports high resolution timing"?
17:40:44 <alise> The joicang woodles varrified / as finett aspions, excurely / lownsanned mummium.
17:40:44 <alise> Tremen parosides scantr / while isixing coucrics havese / and torkne offmanes grasik.
17:40:44 <alise> "Apskins," said the conept / "with marmods, schervy / these very fouttis oundir / and thfiert backabil.
17:40:44 <alise> "Verily, Zeman the Inindor / as stmatans and euntions / ofertifts so manionly / as tarlber and scrairefs too."
17:40:48 <Gregor-W> cpressey: You realize you can ignore that warning, right?
17:40:55 <Gregor-W> alise: You are truly an artiste.
17:41:07 <alise> Gregor-W: Just call me Alise Carroll.
17:41:34 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Well no, I didn't. I don't normally assume I can safely ignore warnings.
17:42:18 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Basically without such a kernel it doesn't know quite when the MIDI data has made it through that whole subsystem and actually been spit out as sound, so it can't keep the play bar perfectly in sync with the output. Still works though, it's just not perfectly synchronized.
17:42:52 <Gregor-W> Also if you had other audio it wouldn't be able to coordinate it, but I never do so *eh*
17:43:20 <Gregor-W> Anyway once you get past that warning the real hell begins, because then you're actually using Rosegarden X-P
17:44:06 <cpressey> I don't have a MIDI instrument anyway, so I will have to find some kind of renderer software (it told me about some packages the first time I started it up, but has not repeated that useful information on subsequent starts I believe,) and I will have to hope that it has decent manual entry. If not, I'm looking at trackers. Or just giving up on composition.
17:44:46 <cpressey> Cause, you see, this kind of shit does not exactly put me in a creative mood.
17:44:51 <Warrigal> In C++, if I have a string variable and a char pointer, can I just assign the variable to the pointer and everything just work?
17:45:37 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Yeah, 's annoying. fluidsynth . Use this piano soundfont: ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/sf2/Steinway_IMIS2.2/ . Look for "Chorium" for a good everything-else soundfont. Use the command line fluidsynth -l -a alsa <whatever>.sf2
17:46:47 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Thanks. (This is complicated by only-sporadic-internet-access-for-machine-this-is-on.)
17:47:07 <Warrigal> Wait, I asked a question whose answer I can easily determine experimentally. Oops.
17:47:35 <Gregor-W> cpressey: In my experience, all this crap does deter from the music-writing mood, but once you've got it all in place and can bring things up quickly, it's JUST tolerable! Wooooh tolerable!
17:48:39 <alise> Gregor-W: Behold: The Thrappas of Bagriga. http://pastie.org/1090723.txt?key=zjgqcnbndjcbfih6qnkeda
17:49:02 <alise> A poem by Conacred Visturs.
17:49:20 <Gregor-W> alise: Your quote use is inconsistent.
17:49:54 <Gregor-W> The third stanza has an unterminated quote, but all other quotes are terminated.
17:50:05 <alise> Gregor-W: That is because the third stanza's speech continues in the fourth stanza.
17:50:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Spakk onderstannablee, eenfydels!).
17:50:46 <Gregor-W> I'm not sure I've ever seen that corner of English written as such ...
17:51:03 <alise> Gregor-W: It is standard practice to not terminate a quote if it continues in the next paragraph.
17:51:49 * Sgeo_ has seen that convention before
17:51:56 <Sgeo_> Don't remember where
17:52:00 <alise> The Time Machine by H. G. Wells features it, at least.
17:52:04 <alise> I think The Lord of the Rings does too.
17:52:19 <cpressey> Yeah, it's a common screwed-up convention.
17:52:22 <alise> IIRC when Gandalf decides that the next paragraph should be entirely his recounting of events.
17:52:36 <alise> cpressey: Yes, but English is screwed up; so the conventions shall be adopted.
17:52:45 <cpressey> Like commas coming inside the end of a quote and all that.
17:53:06 <Gregor-W> That convention I refuse to uphold.
17:53:15 <alise> "Actually, that sometimes makes sense," said Alise, "because it denotes an actual pause."
17:53:21 <alise> "Other times, this may be more acceptable." said Alise.
17:53:26 <alise> "But not really this, " said Alise.
17:53:38 <alise> Gregor-W: But { "Foo", said Bar } is far worse.
17:53:47 <alise> It simply looks hideous when typeset.
17:54:08 <alise> {"Foo." said Bar} is perfectly unobjectionable.
17:54:40 <Gregor-W> Then it's ambiguous. Did the quote say Bar, or did Bar say the quote? X-P
17:54:40 <alise> { "Indeed; I also think that..." said Bob } I'd write as -- if that was for some reason unacceptable -- { "Indeed," said Bob; "I also think that..." }
17:55:06 <alise> Gregor-W: What's that? { "X" said Y } is the only occurance of OVS in English, and translates to { Y said "X" }? Gaspeth!
17:55:10 <fizzie> Re recaptcha, I recently got one where the second word was upside-down. I couldn't help wondering if they had one whole page scanned upside-down in there; most likely.
17:59:37 <Sgeo_> alise, using Chrome 6 yet?
18:00:34 <alise> If by "Chrome 6" you mean "Midori", then yes, I am using Chrome 6.
18:01:24 <Sgeo_> I remember you were a fan of Chrome at one point
18:01:45 <alise> I like it well enough; but on Linux its defiance of standard window conventions makes it a pain.
18:01:54 <alise> Chrome on Windows, lovely; on other OSes, not so much.
18:02:28 <Sgeo_> There are standard window conventions on Linux?
18:02:54 <alise> Well, a box with a title around the window shouldn't be "weird" to the program.
18:02:59 <alise> It is with Chrome, which likes to decorate its own stuff.
18:06:36 <alise> The Department of Extreme Morphology.
18:08:53 <alise> No, just morphology.
18:09:11 <alise> Also, I prescribe some any-language-but-bloody-Smalltalk to shut you up! :P
18:09:28 <Gregor-W> All recent browsers like to make themselves look like shit.
18:09:47 <alise> Gregor-W: I like how Chrome looks on Windows, it's a nice UI concept.
18:09:51 <Gregor-W> It's taking its UI design lesson from Opera. OPERA. Idiots.
18:09:51 <alise> But on other OSes, it falls down hard.
18:10:05 <alise> Ouch, looking at Firefox 4.0b2.
18:10:17 <Sgeo_> I should learn BancSTAR!
18:10:18 <alise> They took all the worst bits from Chrome and all the worst bits from Opera.
18:10:28 <alise> They have Chrome's tab-bar-title-bar thing WITHOUT ACTUALLY MAKING IT THE TITLE BAR.
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18:10:37 <alise> They have TWO menus! Why?!
18:10:50 <Gregor-W> I HATE Chrome's tab-bar-title-bar thing. HATE
18:11:05 <Sgeo_> BancSTAR has supplanted my love for Smalltalk! I love BancSTAR!
18:11:06 <alise> But only on Windows.
18:11:21 <alise> Sgeo_: But what about NewSTAR?!
18:11:25 <alise> It's not ready yet!
18:11:34 <Gregor-W> alise: However, FF4.0b2 doesn't have two menus, I don't know what you're on about there ...
18:11:51 <alise> http://www.betaarchive.co.uk/imageupload/1278232295.or.41572.PNG
18:11:58 * Sgeo_ can barely breathe from laughing
18:12:19 <Gregor-W> alise: That's weird. Not sure how they got that. I don't have that.
18:12:30 <alise> I guess they enabled it.
18:13:31 <Gregor-W> I can enable the menu bar but not the Firefox V dropdown, or I can enable the Firefox V dropdown but not the menu.
18:13:41 <alise> Firefox V is the marketing name for Firefox 5
18:13:44 * pikhq really, truly hates music piracy
18:13:54 <alise> pikhq: I totally interpreted that the wrong way for a second.
18:14:01 <alise> pikhq: I was about to KILL YOU.
18:14:24 <pikhq> Why oh *why* must torrents have such crappy tagging?
18:14:35 <pikhq> I've got a discography torrent with *untagged* files!
18:14:54 <pikhq> Thank God that MusicBrainz takes care of 99% of the work.
18:15:06 <alise> pikhq: Also suggestion: Ex Falso.
18:15:08 <Gregor-W> Although some of the olde ones are probably untagged.
18:15:19 <alise> pikhq: Very capable multi-file tag editor *and* renaming-based-on-tags-itor.
18:15:30 <alise> pikhq: I tag all my shit with it.
18:15:42 <pikhq> alise: Does it use MusicBrainz?
18:15:54 <alise> pikhq: No, it's a manual editor. You could use it to clean up after MusicBrainz.
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18:15:58 <pikhq> Cause I quite like being able to look up sane tagging info for 99% of stuff.
18:16:09 <alise> MusicBrainz -> Tweak with Ex Falso, I'd suggest.
18:16:16 <alise> But then I'm weird; I don't even use any genre tags.
18:16:19 <alise> (It's too difficult to decide!)
18:16:41 <pikhq> Gregor-W: I'm pretty sure that I've *got* them, but it's not like I *care*.
18:16:41 <alise> Gregor-W: Unless you do the GENRE/STYLE system, where you have one hopelessly vague GENRE and crazily specific STYLEs.
18:16:44 <Gregor-W> They offend me because there's only one tag for all music before 1920. Or I guess two or three, but not many is the point :P
18:16:53 <alise> Gregor-W: Oh, ID3.
18:17:01 <pikhq> I mean, I don't even *care* about the genre of music.
18:17:18 <pikhq> If it's good, then I'm satisfied regardless of genre. If it's shit, then, well, it's shit.
18:17:20 <alise> What we REALLY need is an ontological taxonomy for genres!
18:17:31 <alise> So that we can specify the genre of music with a list of tags, each of which has relations to other tags!
18:17:51 <alise> Like, we could have a rule that... Iunno, "some-genre = (a + b) - c".
18:17:53 <pikhq> Even if it *is* prog rock or something, it's still shit. And if it's good, it's good in spite of being, say, rap.
18:18:05 <alise> i.e. "Oh yeah, some genre music is like a with b, but without the c aspects."
18:18:06 <pikhq> (you can now see my biases)
18:18:24 <Gregor-W> I tag all music as either "classical" or "post-classical"
18:18:39 * alise wonders what formula metal is
18:18:54 <alise> metal = rock + (symphonic - orchestral) + noise, perhaps
18:19:00 <alise> oh, clearly we need scaling factors
18:19:01 <pikhq> "Metal" is a ridiculously vague genre.
18:19:08 <alise> pikhq: Of course; that's why you have subgenres.
18:19:14 <alise> progressive+metal, for instance, is the obvious thing.
18:19:52 <alise> doom-metal = metal + slow + low-tuned + ...
18:19:57 <alise> Then you have progressive+doom-metal.
18:20:05 <Gregor-W> What does "low-tuned" mean ...
18:20:13 <alise> Gregor-W: The guitars are tuned low. :P
18:20:14 <pikhq> I mean, Led Zeppelin and Anal Cunt are both metal.
18:20:24 <Gregor-W> alise: So ... they're out of tune?
18:20:28 <cpressey> Prog metal? Like, um -- Living Color?
18:20:29 <alise> Gregor-W: Shut up.
18:20:38 <alise> Consider a song which is 1/3 rap, 1/3 metal and 1/3 rap-metal.
18:20:39 <pikhq> (yes, Anal Cunt is a real band.)
18:20:47 <alise> genre = (rap, metal, rap+metal).
18:20:51 <Gregor-W> pikhq: That surprises me none whatsoever.
18:20:53 <alise> You COULD have scaling factors here... but no.
18:20:57 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, after I finish watching Air Part 3, can I skip straight to Time?
18:20:58 <alise> pikhq: Anal Cunt are awesome.
18:21:10 <alise> Sgeo_: Don't skip episodes of TV series. That's fucking retarded.
18:21:18 <Gregor-W> Sgeo_: I don't think any of them are skippable.
18:21:38 <alise> Gregor-W: Well, I guess you could skip all of Lost but the first and last episodes.
18:21:51 <alise> Someone will probably pipe up "Naruto", but I'll reply that you should skip all of Naruto because jesus christ you have no taste.
18:21:55 <Gregor-W> Or, save yourself some time and skip all of Lost.
18:22:03 <pikhq> Of course, nowadays Led Zeppelin hardly even comes across as hard rock, much less metal...
18:22:26 <pikhq> (god damned music evolution. :P)
18:22:49 <alise> pikhq: One advantage of this ONTOGENREONOMY is that you could search, e.g. "thick + synthesised" (where synthesised refers to the "stereotypical" synthesiser sound, like 80s)
18:23:22 <alise> You could just not tag genres!
18:23:42 <cpressey> I don't know what the hell you folks are talking abuot
18:24:13 <Gregor-W> cpressey: They're discussing the nature of a concept I disdain due to its poor ability to classify all of my favorite music :P
18:24:30 <Gregor-W> Arguably they're developing it into something I would find more useful.
18:24:31 <alise> Gregor-W: But the ontogenreonomy would be so subtle and ... huge, that you could classify all your music precisely!
18:24:33 <cpressey> track 01.ogg <-- ALL MY MP3S LOOK LIKE THIS
18:24:38 <alise> If you devoted years to it!
18:24:41 <alise> cpressey: Your mp3s have weird file extensions.
18:24:43 <alise> cpressey: Or weird containers.
18:24:46 <alise> MP3 in OGG, fuck yeah.
18:26:24 <Gregor-W> Incidentally, can anybody recommend a COMMAND-LINE tagging tool for GNU/Linux that isn't terrible?
18:28:27 <alise> But, uh, command-line tagging is a bit of a bitch; tagging can get quite complicated.
18:28:40 <cpressey> There's a whole science behind it I hear
18:29:14 <Gregor-W> I just need to supply a title and year, the rest is always consistent. Also, metaflac is FLAC-only last I checked :P
18:29:35 <Gregor-W> I need something that I can just say "Tag these .mp3, .ogg, .flac, .whatever files all the same DO IT DO IT DO IT"
18:30:29 <alise> pikhq: Clearly we need to divide things into lyrical and musical themes.
18:30:40 <alise> christian-gangster-rap = lyrical:christian + ganster-rap
18:31:15 <Gregor-W> alise: You need to choose something better than a hyphen, it keeps making me think "minus", which is also a useful operator.
18:31:24 <alise> Okay, fine; quoted names.
18:31:32 <cpressey> yes we must devise a complete system
18:31:41 <alise> 'christian gangster rap' = lyrical:christian + musical:'gangster rap'
18:31:57 <alise> lyrical:christian = @{lyrical:religious}
18:32:03 <alise> The @{...} means "more than the sum of these parts".
18:32:05 <alise> I guess it could be @ +.
18:32:08 <alise> lyrical:christian = @ + lyrical:religious
18:32:18 <alise> Because that's the only related theme, but it's something new; a new atomic concept, of Christian lyrics.
18:32:52 <Gregor-W> Ah yes, the genre that puts Bach and (wtf, Christian gangster rap?) in the same group.
18:33:12 <alise> Gregor-W: Eh? Which?
18:33:29 <alise> -- You do realise that lyrical:christian wouldn't be used as a genre by itself, right?
18:33:38 <alise> It's a component of other genres, like 'christian gangster rap'.
18:33:57 <Gregor-W> I don't see what the purpose in making this distinction is.
18:34:03 <alise> There is no distinction.
18:34:12 <Gregor-W> Then lyrical:christian is a genre.
18:34:15 <alise> But nobody sane would tag their files genre = {lyrical:christian}. :P
18:34:25 <alise> You could also say things like {lyrical:christian + 'progressive rock'}, since nobody's crazy enough to define 'christian progressive rock'.
18:34:33 <Gregor-W> But if you SEARCHED for lyrical:christian, you'd get both Bach and Christian gangster rap.
18:34:34 <alise> The only reason I defined 'christian gangster rap' is because it's one of the Nullsoft genres.
18:34:48 <alise> Gregor-W: Yes, such are the consequences of awful searches.
18:35:01 <Gregor-W> Unless that's what you were looking for!
18:35:15 <Gregor-W> You just want the Love of Jesus photons to wash over you, you don't care where they're from.
18:35:54 <alise> Hmm, lyrical: is perhaps not the best tag; it's really vocal.
18:35:57 <alise> But then it's lyrical too.
18:36:15 <alise> But then vocal:female is a relatively silly tag as nobody will be that specific.
18:36:28 <Gregor-W> Arguably "lyrical" means that the speaking is somehow "to" the music, so it's not spoken-word.
18:36:35 <Gregor-W> Whereas "vocal" just means "here there be voices"
18:36:55 <alise> How would you denote lyrical-including-spoken-word-text?
18:37:01 <alise> textual: and vocal:
18:37:20 <Gregor-W> So textual means it's not just sounds produced by the human voice, but in a language?
18:37:31 <alise> Gregor-W: Well, almost.
18:37:41 <alise> Gregor-W: In fact, yes, I think so.
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18:38:01 <alise> Gregor-W: Although e.g. textual:vonlenska would be a valid tag, even though that isn't a "real" language.
18:38:37 <Gregor-W> Yes, I think this system of metagenres will catch on ANY DAY NOW.
18:39:02 <alise> It's for people who REALLY REALLY CARE.
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18:39:16 <alise> cpressey: *key:'e flat'
18:39:20 <Gregor-W> cpressey: What if it changes keys?
18:39:30 <Gregor-W> Also, you missed major/minor/other modes.
18:39:34 <alise> Gregor-W: something having a genre X only means that it has aspects of that genre, etc.
18:39:36 <alise> not necessarily exclusively
18:39:47 <alise> {key:'e flat' + key:a} is a perfectly acceptable genre.
18:39:55 <Gregor-W> key:"f major" key:"b flat minor" wooooh
18:40:07 <Gregor-W> And key:"f major" = key:f + key:major
18:40:13 <cpressey> key[1]:'e_flat' mode[1]:'major' key[2]:'c_sharp' mode[1]:'minor'
18:40:31 <Gregor-W> cpressey: OMG mode[1] is both major AND minor!
18:40:47 <Gregor-W> I'M LOOKING FOR SOMETHING WHERE THE SECOND MODE IS MINOR
18:41:06 <cpressey> that's why we have devised this complete system for you
18:41:18 <cpressey> crimes that the lead singer has been comitted of
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18:41:47 <alise> arson, murder, jaywalking, defenestration
18:41:52 <alise> cpressey: RDF inspired this!
18:42:00 <alise> we need to incorporate EmotionML
18:42:05 <alise> for denoting the precise emotion of parts of the song
18:42:10 <cpressey> alise: needs to interface to external RDF databases so's I can run my queries
18:42:20 <alise> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-emotionml-20100729/
18:42:53 <Gregor-W> leBMD: You've walked in while we talk about stupid stuff :P
18:43:02 <leBMD> yeah, it seems like that.
18:43:06 <alise> Gregor-W: You mean, he walked in while we were doing our usual thing?
18:43:07 <Gregor-W> chord[1].notes=1 + note[1].value=c4 + note[1].duration=1/4 + chord[2].notes=2 + note[2].value=c4 + ...
18:43:16 <alise> leBMD: are you here for the religious stuff
18:43:23 <alise> Gregor-W: YOU'RE JUST SPECIFYING THE ENTIRE SONG
18:43:27 <leBMD> What do you mean by that?
18:43:37 <Gregor-W> leBMD: He's being a pessimist, ignore him X-P
18:43:44 <alise> Gregor-W: vocalisation-by-drummer="raw audio data"
18:43:50 <alise> leBMD: we get a lot of people in for that
18:43:57 <alise> whereas we are for the programming stuff.
18:44:00 <leBMD> So, are you guys...making a music macro language?
18:44:37 <alise> leBMD: We STARTED OUT defining the Ontological Genre Taxonomy Database to rule over all other genre systems.
18:44:47 <pikhq> Who's the monster responsible for 320kbps MP3?
18:44:51 <alise> Never again would your searches not find the subtlest elements of genres in your songs; never again shall your tracks not be accurately tagged.
18:45:00 <Gregor-W> leBMD: As that genre system got more ridiculous, I decided to mock it by defining the entire piece as a "genre" :P
18:45:04 <alise> leBMD: BUT THEN-- Gregor made it into a complete musical-piece-specification system because he is even more insane than us.
18:45:20 <alise> pikhq: Someone who never realised that they're using LAME.
18:45:29 <Gregor-W> Oh, I know! sample[0].value=0 sample[1].value=1 sample[2].value=1 ...
18:45:53 <leBMD> here's what you do: look for a major followed by a quick minor, repeated twice. Then, you tag that as a "legendary" song.
18:46:24 * Gregor-W writes a quick legendary song.
18:46:39 <leBMD> Just go with the four chords used in every other legendary song.
18:46:52 <leBMD> Like in the beginning of "Streetlight people" by Journey.
18:46:55 <Gregor-W> It goes like this: C major chord, C minor chord staccato, C major chord, C minor chord staccato.
18:47:40 <Gregor-W> It's in 5/4, one measure long, and ends with a quarter rest.
18:47:54 <alise> C major chord / C minor chord (staccato) / C major chord / C minor chord (staccato) -- sung to the beginning of Beethoven's fifth played twice
18:48:25 <leBMD> Oh, by the way, how do I add a language ot the wiki?
18:48:34 <alise> leBMD: Go to the page, edit it.
18:48:41 <alise> Use the search box or change the URL.
18:48:50 <Gregor-W> Make sure to categorize it as appropriate so it'll be listed somewhere.
18:48:59 <alise> [[Category:Appropriate]]
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18:54:11 <leBMD> Is there a way to put stuff in a box, kind of like quote boxes on a forum?
18:57:46 <cpressey> Oh crap, then there's all that mess with setting up JACK, I completely forgot.
18:58:17 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, is all of SGU going to be people fighting?
18:58:47 <Gregor-W> Sgeo_: Pretty much. With a lot of soap-opera-esque pseudodrama and painfully obvious rivalries.
18:58:50 <alise> Asking someone with a low opinion of a work with a negative question is not going to produce a positive response.
18:59:35 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, as long as that's not the point of many episodes a season, I think I'll be ok
18:59:47 <Sgeo_> I hated the Earth politics episodes of SG1, but I survived
19:00:08 <Gregor-W> Naw, I don't think it's QUITE the same style of badness.
19:00:20 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:01:27 <Sgeo_> And at least these characters are human. I have trouble imagining flaws in the SG-1 characters
19:02:35 <alise> Yeah because it's not like SG-1 had any humans.
19:03:17 <Sgeo_> Characters without flaws shouldn't be considered human
19:03:34 <Sgeo_> Hmm.. Sam was gullible once
19:04:10 <Gregor-W> Sgeo_: Give it time, the characters in SGU will become inhuman in the other direction.
19:05:26 <leBMD> ok, boys. Here is my work: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Noobinary
19:05:27 <alise> Bah, we just need $ARBITRARY_TELEVISION_NETWORK to give the green-light on Odyssey and we'll finally have decent character-based sci-fi on TV.
19:06:54 <Sgeo_> If I made an interpreter in Smalltalk, would I be slapped?
19:11:02 <leBMD> I tried using Little Smalltalk once.
19:11:07 -!- boily has joined.
19:11:21 <leBMD> I couldn't handle having to highlight all my code. Maybe if I played with it more I'd learn a better way.
19:11:40 <alise> alt-d/p work without selection in modern squeak
19:13:06 <Sgeo_> alise, that only does one line, I think
19:13:40 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, what's with the religionness?
19:14:35 <alise> Sgeo_: indeed it does
19:14:42 <alise> "the religionness"?
19:15:05 <alise> What are you talking about?
19:15:14 <alise> Protip: It's not really there
19:15:22 <alise> Protip: What happens if you're in the desert for ages and don't drink?
19:18:32 <Sgeo_> Now, more important question: WHY IS MY SOUND SCREWING UP?!?!?!?
19:18:45 <leBMD> FOR THE SAME REASON THAT THE DINOSAURS DIED.
19:18:51 <alise> leBMD: which is because he sucks
19:18:54 <Gregor-W> Because you touch yourself at night.
19:20:09 <leBMD> well, I'm gonna go read a book or kick puppies or something.
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19:21:58 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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19:23:43 <Sgeo_> How do I restart sound on Windows?
19:24:32 <fizzie> By restarting Windows, is my guess.
19:24:54 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
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19:41:33 <cpressey> /usr/bin/jackd: symbol lookup error: /usr/bin/jackd: undefined symbol: _jack_get_microseconds
19:42:12 <cpressey> No wonder Rosegarden can't connect to Jack
19:47:23 <cpressey> I have a bar of quarter notes. Next challenge: make sound.
19:48:34 <cpressey> Select: Audio. Select: Generators > Oscillators. Select: FM Oscillator. CRASH.
19:50:20 -!- AnMaster has changed nick to Vorpal.
19:54:44 <alise> cpressey: What are you attempting to do?
19:54:51 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Uhhh, why are you using audio generators in Rosegarden instead of just MIDI synth?
19:55:04 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Mind you, that still shouldn't crash, but this is Rosegarden :P
19:55:54 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
19:57:34 <Gregor-W> Rosegarden crashed his IRC client.
20:00:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:02:09 -!- cpressey has joined.
20:03:35 <ais523> cpressey: blood conducts electricity rather well
20:03:44 <ais523> it thus doesn't mix well with electronic equipment
20:05:22 <alise> SCP idea: A computer made entirely out of organic matter; communication is by tubes filled with blood...
20:06:16 <cpressey> That's quite disturbing. I like it.
20:06:50 <alise> ...and it's incredibly powerful, if you can figure it out... but after a while, users of it seem to...disappear...
20:06:59 <alise> And the computer is growing. THEN WHO WAS PHONE?
20:07:12 <cpressey> Gregor: I believe I have got to the point where the million dollar question is: How do I tell Rosegarden "fluidsynth is running! you should talk to it!"
20:08:23 <cpressey> Is there a "talk to fluidsynth" "synth plugin" or something? I have no synth plugins.
20:15:25 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
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20:17:41 <Phantom_Hatter> alise, interested in seeing Lumenos try to explain his philosophy to mortals?
20:20:19 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: Yes.
20:27:54 -!- diofeher has joined.
20:34:23 <Phantom_Hatter> Rats, I have been foiled by Lazy K's innate lack of reliable IO scheduling.
20:38:43 <Phantom_Hatter> I think it's impossible to schedule things to output 'a', then input something, then output 'b', then print the aforementioned something.
20:43:35 <Phantom_Hatter> Although it does rather nasty things to my beautiful abstraction.
20:53:12 <Gregor-W> Y'know, I would answer cpressey's questions, but he's not online :P
20:53:19 <Gregor-W> If he's asking that question, then he's doing it all wrong :P
20:53:36 <Gregor-W> w.r.t. making Rosegarden talk to fluidsynth.
20:53:59 <Sgeo_> I think TV Tropes just massively spoiled "Light" for me
20:54:05 <Sgeo_> And I didn't even look at any spoilers!
20:54:25 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hatter, episode of SGU
20:55:02 <coppro> that episode will get spoiled if you watch anything afterwards
20:55:47 <Sgeo_> coppro, I've been watching these eps in order
20:56:02 <Phantom_Hatter> Reading TV Tropes on anything you haven't finished watching/reading/telepathing is generally going to spoil it.
20:56:25 <Phantom_Hatter> There is a strange habit not to spoiler out tropes like "everybody dies".
20:58:36 * pikhq should make a not-shitty music player for his phone
21:00:29 <coppro> Sgeo_: I have fixed the offending spoilers
21:01:17 <pikhq> Alternately, I could just install X11 on it and call it a day.
21:01:29 <Gregor-W> coppro: Too late now, what has been seen cannot be unseen!
21:01:36 <pikhq> And a Debian chroot, of course.
21:01:52 * alise implements delegation in javacsript
21:02:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:02:26 <Gregor-W> I'll implement your MOM in JavaScript.
21:02:59 <alise> I'm doing a nomic in Javascript to steal Warrigal's thunder >_>
21:03:42 <Gregor-W> Hard to imagine how that could work well as a nomic since JavaScript is all client-side.
21:03:59 <Warrigal> If it's Free, I can incorporate pieces of it into my own.
21:04:15 <Warrigal> Gregor-W: it's difficult to imagine how a programming language itself can be client-side.
21:04:20 <alise> Warrigal: Just for saying "Free" with a capital F I'll make sure it's not.
21:04:40 <Warrigal> alise: sorry. Do you have any other English usage guidelines I should follow?
21:04:43 <Gregor-W> Warrigal: Since ALL JAVASCRIPT IMPLEMENTATIONS ARE CLIENT-SIDE (excluding shitty half-baked server-side JS systems)
21:04:49 <alise> Warrigal: Yes: prose before hoes.
21:04:49 <pikhq> Still alternately... Any SDL programs that'd be nice to have on here?
21:05:00 <pikhq> I should be able to just cross-compile and it'll "just work".
21:05:02 <Gregor-W> alise: If it's FREE AS IN FREEDOM
21:05:02 <alise> Gregor-W: Apart from Rhino, SpiderMonkey, V8, ...
21:05:23 <alise> And while I don't like node.js, I would hardly call it "half-baked".
21:05:28 <alise> http://nodejs.org/
21:05:40 <alise> And it isn't purely server-based, either.
21:06:05 <Warrigal> Gregor-W: yeah, I'm not sure what makes a JavaScript implementation client-side, either.
21:06:16 <alise> Because I'm right? :P
21:06:18 <Warrigal> SpiderMonkey seems to be pretty agnostic as to where you run it.
21:06:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
21:06:44 <Warrigal> You can put it in clients. You can put it in servers. You can put it in toaster ovens.
21:06:59 <Gregor-W> Yes, I've even used SpiderMonkey in wildly non-browsery contexts, but here's the facts: When you write JS code, you're either writing code to be run in a browser, or never to be run at all.
21:07:27 * Sgeo_ takes coppro's name out of the lottery
21:07:54 <Gregor-W> node.js, lest there be confusion, goes into the "never to be run at all" category.
21:07:56 <alise> Gregor-W: Unless you're making your own infrastructure. Gasp!
21:08:13 <alise> I like how you're completely ignoring all the people that use node.js just because it isn't very common and you don't like it.
21:08:19 <Gregor-W> alise: Making your own infrastructure fits quite squarely into "never to be run at all"
21:08:21 <Sgeo_> What's so bad about node.js, besides not being Smalltalk?
21:08:24 <alise> By the same token, we should not create a Brainfuck Nomic.
21:08:29 <alise> It's impossible, because it's code that's never to be run at all!
21:08:35 <Warrigal> Got it. All non-browser JavaScript is heathen.
21:08:44 <alise> Gregor-W: Yeah, people are never going to load http://javascriptnomiclol.org/ and click around.
21:08:47 <alise> Maybe even type in some characters.
21:08:55 <alise> This is because server-based JavaScript is never to be run at all.
21:08:59 <alise> You're being stupid, by the way.
21:09:03 <ais523> alise: I did start writing a BFnomic, but gave up
21:09:12 <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
21:09:12 * Sgeo_ takes Gregor-W's name out of the lottery
21:09:15 <alise> `addquote <ais523> it was too difficult
21:09:23 <alise> Gregor-W: And that ... doesn't make you stupid?
21:09:26 <HackEgo> 212|<ais523> it was too difficult
21:09:32 <alise> `addquote <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
21:09:32 <ais523> that's not a particularly /good/ quote...
21:09:34 <HackEgo> 213|<Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
21:09:41 <alise> ais523: it is one I previously thought would never be uttered, however
21:09:49 <alise> like the one where oklopol said he didn't understand or something
21:10:06 <ais523> am I not allowed to be honest about my own limitations?
21:10:15 <alise> You have LIMITATIONS?
21:10:19 <ais523> I think you'd think it much more likely of me to admit I couldn't do something, than to claim I could anyway
21:10:20 <Gregor-W> ais523: It's simpler than that, you're not allowed to have limitations.
21:10:49 <Warrigal> ais523: you are now playing in Advanced Mode. All limitations now count against you.
21:10:58 <Warrigal> Also, if you die now, you die permanently.
21:11:11 <ais523> weren't those the rules beforehand?
21:11:13 <Gregor-W> When you rape a puppet, IT DIES.
21:11:16 <ais523> in life, as it is in NetHack?
21:11:39 <Warrigal> Nope. Back then, you were in Basic Mode; limitations didn't really count and death only resulted in a penalty.
21:11:59 <Sgeo_> That should be an esolang
21:12:20 <Sgeo_> </wannabe-catchphrase-that-i-cant-convince-anyone-is-my-catchphrase>
21:12:38 <alise> You misspelled "Kant".
21:13:13 <Warrigal> Technically, he misspelled "can't".
21:13:25 <Gregor-W> Technically he misspelled "cunt"
21:13:35 <Warrigal> Well, technically, he misspelled every word except "cant".
21:15:04 <Warrigal> Have we ever had a JavaScript bot in here? Because that would be kinda nice.
21:15:07 * Sgeo_ grumbles at Chloe/Non-..game guy
21:16:46 <alise> Sgeo_: Wow, I forgot game guy's name already.
21:17:07 <Gregor-W> I would've remembered it if you guys hadn't just beamed forgetness at me.
21:17:28 <Phantom_Hatter> http://pastebin.com/68AqfN8r is the current state of the code, BtW.
21:17:52 <Phantom_Hatter> Although I slightly patched lazier.scm and prelude.scm to make them work properly.
21:17:56 <alise> Gregor-W: Yeah, that's what happened to me...
21:18:01 <alise> "Dammit, why did you make me forget?"
21:21:00 -!- Killerkid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:24:49 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hatter: That ... was the greatest use of a diaeresis mark ever.
21:25:02 <alise> It was a perfectly normal use.
21:25:47 <Gregor-W> It was a perfectly correct use. It was not a perfectly normal use.
21:26:28 <fizzie> It looks pretty weird for us Finns (or at least me), what with the ö being a letter of its own and all.
21:26:54 <Gregor-W> Screw you Finns and your lack of coöperation with obscure English.
21:27:42 <Gregor-W> (Sorry, cooperate was the only word I could think of :P )
21:28:01 <fizzie> grep 'noöne' 2010-08.log | wc -l => 6; six times in a month on this channel, that's pretty normal already.
21:28:29 <alise> Gregor-W: We like the diæresis.
21:28:44 <fizzie> All are Phantom_Hooverisms. Plus one example from alise in 2010-03.
21:28:56 <alise> I don't use them so much because they're a bitch to type.
21:29:02 <fizzie> (Okay, the last is a Hatterism instead of a Hooversim.)
21:29:08 <alise> I want TeX in my IRC input line. \"u -> ü
21:29:31 <Gregor-W> Well I don't mean any ol' diaeresis mark.
21:29:36 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: Yes, but hitting compose is meh.
21:29:43 <Gregor-W> I mean "no one", collapsed, diaeresis'd.
21:29:49 <fizzie> Lucky us, we've got dedicated keys for ä and ö.
21:29:55 <alise> as is no-one ergo no\"one
21:30:03 * alise sets compose to right windows key, discovers he has no right windows key
21:30:12 * alise sets it to the menu key
21:30:19 <alise> noöne could think that typing like this was easy
21:30:29 <alise> it's so inconvenient to use your thumb to hit menu then go all the way up to "
21:30:40 <Warrigal> Dude, I'm on a MacBook, and even I have a right Windows key.
21:30:49 <alise> Dude, I don't care about having a right Windows key.
21:30:58 <alise> You have a right Option key.
21:31:03 <alise> Or a right Command key, depending which you think is which.
21:31:07 <Phantom_Hatter> You have a command key, which is completely different.
21:31:07 <alise> Gregor-W: On your Xbox?!
21:31:10 <fizzie> I have compose in menu key too, but in this keyboard they've hidden the menu key as fn-printscreen, of all things. It's very awkward to type.
21:31:21 <Warrigal> I think I have a Command key, which is exactly the same thing.
21:31:31 <Gregor-W> A box (computer) running X (windowing system)
21:31:34 <alise> Gregor-W: I wish \"b was a char so I could say "On your X\"box?!"
21:31:37 <Warrigal> And an Option key, which is something entirely different.
21:31:39 <alise> Warrigal: Erm, no.
21:31:50 <alise> The Option key is where the Windows key is.
21:31:55 <alise> The Command key is where the Alt key is.
21:32:09 <Warrigal> Well, the Option key works like an Alt key and the Command key works like a Windows key.
21:32:53 <alise> It seems I don't have GB files for compose. So I assume it's using the C locale.
21:33:03 <alise> Command+X is a regular shortcut; on Windows it would be Control+X.
21:33:23 <alise> The Windows key on Windows pops up the Start menu or e.g. Win+L locks the system.
21:33:29 <alise> i.e., it's for system-wide stuff, mostly.
21:33:32 <alise> Win+R brings up the Run... dialog.
21:33:49 <Warrigal> Well, yes, by "works like", I mean that pressing Command on this keyboard in some operating system does the same thing as pressing Windows on a different keyboard in the same operating system.
21:33:51 <alise> YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.
21:33:56 <alise> Warrigal: Only by default.
21:34:00 <alise> That is configurable.
21:34:15 <alise> Indeed, it SHOULD be changed; the two keys are in the wrong place otherwise on other keyboards.
21:35:15 <alise> :( Compose - + doesn't give a \mp, it gives a \pm.
21:35:35 <alise> <Multi_key> <less> <quotedbl> : "“" U201c # LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MA
21:35:35 <alise> <Multi_key> <quotedbl> <less> : "“" U201c # LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MA
21:35:35 <alise> <Multi_key> <greater> <quotedbl> : "”" U201d # RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION M
21:35:38 <alise> <Multi_key> <quotedbl> <greater> : "”" U201d # RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION M
21:35:42 <alise> What an abomination.
21:35:52 <alise> It should be `` and ''!
21:35:58 <alise> But Compose ' ' -> ´
21:36:04 <alise> And compose `` does nothing, but ``` does `
21:36:14 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: /usr/share/X11/locale/[en_US.UTF-8]
21:36:14 <Warrigal> ``` does `. That's really useful.
21:36:25 <alise> there may be GB files
21:36:27 -!- Killerkid has joined.
21:36:29 * alise creates his personal compose file
21:36:31 <Warrigal> Does Compose Compose ` ` ` Compose ` ` ` Compose ` ` ` also give you `?
21:37:01 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: ~/.XCompose but you need to add some stuff, lemme tell you the stuff you need to add
21:37:25 <Warrigal> I guess the fact that ``` does ` comes from the fact that `` does nothing.
21:37:29 <alise> actually, compose-\-p should be pi or something
21:37:33 <alise> compose-\-x should be greek x
21:37:53 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: okay, put this in ~/.XCompose
21:38:00 <alise> include "... path to inherited Compose file"
21:38:06 <alise> # foo is a comment
21:38:14 <alise> Warrigal: x was a variable
21:38:42 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: include "%L" includes the default one for your local
21:39:04 <Sgeo_> Knowing what would happen made me happy when Dr. Rush was happy because I knew what he learned
21:39:50 <alise> <Multi_key> <b> <t> <w> : "by the way" # Compose b t w
21:39:50 <alise> <Multi_key> <less> <p> : "<p></p>" # Compose < p
21:39:55 <alise> Wow, you can do that?
21:40:14 <Gregor-W> What terrible compose sequences X-D
21:40:41 <Gregor-W> <Multi_key> <l> <o> <l> : "HAHAHAHAHA" # Compose lol
21:41:19 <alise> <Multi_key> <l> <o> <l> : "HAHAHAHAHA" # Compose lol
21:41:39 <myndzi> lol his legs got cut off
21:41:40 <Warrigal> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o>
21:41:52 <Warrigal> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o>
21:41:59 <fizzie> I think I had a "Cthulhu" key back when; it wasn't a compose thing, and it was pre-xkb, I think; but there was some sort of function key mapping system. It might've been even something lower-level.
21:42:10 <Warrigal> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o>
21:42:21 <Phantom_Hatter> Does saving .XCompose cause the configuration to be immediately updated?
21:42:23 <Warrigal> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o>
21:42:24 <myndzi> /'\ /'\ /< |\ /< /< /< |\ /< |\ /<
21:42:40 <Gregor-W> Warrigal: The first two are flashing you.
21:43:13 <alise> How do you obtain a female stickfigure?
21:43:15 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: No.
21:43:21 <myndzi> what would it look like?
21:43:32 <Gregor-W> alise: With the Unicode infinity symbol.
21:44:38 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: I dunno, I just restarted X.
21:44:40 <pikhq> I love that Unicode has a redirect for that glyph.
21:44:59 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: Sure.
21:45:07 <pikhq> Warrigal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%98%83
21:45:31 <alise> ONE OF MY FONTS HAS THE UNICODE SNOWMAN
21:45:34 <alise> SURROUNDED BY MANY, MANY SNOWFLAKES
21:45:58 <alise> pikhq: By Unicode, you mean Wikipedia.
21:46:13 <alise> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/✄
21:46:17 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/✈
21:46:37 <alise> Gregor-W: What, in particular?
21:46:42 <alise> The snowman or the redirects?
21:46:56 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: Only a bureaucratic one.
21:47:10 <fizzie> Didn't they disable the ctrl-alt-backspace kill by default in many places? (Option "DontZap" "on" and so on.)
21:47:17 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_weather_in_London&redirect=no
21:47:28 <alise> "View history" --Wikipedia
21:47:31 <Gregor-W> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/☄
21:47:35 <alise> what was wrong with "History"?
21:48:38 <Gregor-W> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/☐
21:49:02 * alise tries to think of a nice compose sequence for the unicode snowman
21:50:55 -!- Phantom_Hatter has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:50:59 <alise> Or just log out and in again ...
21:51:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:53:37 <alise> Guh, beta is apparently commonly romanised to v now
21:53:42 <alise> Fuck that shit, I'm sticking with b
21:55:54 <alise> I'm just gonna do it in the way that seems obvious to me
21:55:57 <coppro> does Javascript have a set type?
21:55:59 <alise> Hmm, \eth can't be e, that's epsilon.
21:56:09 <coppro> or something similar that I can use for insertion and checking if a string is in it?
21:56:20 <alise> I can't do with n, that's \nu
21:56:26 <alise> coppro: yeah, an object.
21:56:30 <fizzie> If you can't get .Xcompose to work, and it's a Gnome/GTK+ app it's not working in, you might be suffering for the senseless compose-table hardcoding GTK+ does: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GtkComposeTable (There's a "use XIM" workaround available.)
21:56:50 <coppro> alise: how do I do that?
21:57:09 <alise> coppro: var poop = {};
21:57:17 <alise> "x" in poop (or something)
21:59:19 <fizzie> And delete poop["x"]; if you need that one too.
21:59:38 <alise> fizzie: Now now, that never seems to happen (the not-working) for me.
21:59:44 <alise> Unless it hard-codes a very big compose table.
21:59:58 <fizzie> It hardcodes a table that's been derived from the X tables.
22:00:08 <alise> Shift+Ctrl+U doesn't work for me.
22:00:12 <alise> So presumably I'm on xim.
22:00:20 <fizzie> That sounds reasonable anyway.
22:00:35 <alise> So I think it uses xim by default these days.
22:00:37 <alise> It's always worked for me.
22:00:41 -!- mutoga has quit (Quit: :) ♪ © ¿ !~§¤[1;21] 0.6+8*9X²2¨@#|/[_.-{3,4°5^5"'€&6,55957(FR)<7%0=1=0%6>?&£`"5^5°4,3}-._]\|#@¨2²X9*8+7.0 [12;2]¤§~¡ ? 12±¾ ® ♪ (:).
22:00:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mu.
22:01:00 <alise> And some software.
22:01:21 <alise> And it's all in lovely grey, I made sure of that by writing my own themes. :P
22:01:32 <fizzie> The shift-ctrl-U trick works here; so this one is with GTK's thing. It also looks spiffy; it writes an underlined thing there.
22:01:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:04 * alise tries to find an old blog post of tuomov's; it had a Compose setup with Greek romanisations
22:02:09 <alise> which I would like to see so I can steal them
22:02:10 <fizzie> Unfortunately I don't really remember Unicode codepoints, and if I have to run gucharmap, I'd probably just copy the things in instead of using any spiffy unicode-composition trick.
22:02:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:02:37 <Gregor-W> coppro: If you want a set of something other than strings, you're punked though.
22:05:16 <alise> Hmm, upsilon is romanised as y, not u.
22:05:18 <alise> I find that weird.
22:10:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because the lowercase form looks like a u. It's more an instinctive thing.
22:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> The Latin and Greek alphabets have been separated for millenia; of course they're going to be pretty different.
22:11:25 <alise> Now devise me a single-character romanisation scheme; mine sucks
22:12:27 <alise> Of course it does; I just made one up.
22:12:44 <alise> 23 letters in the Greek alphabet.
22:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you want a Romanisation that is fairly pronouncable?
22:14:30 <Gregor-W> What this world needs is MORE PLOF.
22:14:36 <ais523> there are several single-character romanisation schemes used in fonts designed for Greek, aren't there?
22:14:45 <ais523> e.g. q = theta is pretty common, or v = theta
22:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, true, but v or q for the "th" sound looks *really* weird.
22:17:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Additionally, delta→d is untrue to modern Greek, since it's a voiced "th".
22:17:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's better than romanisation schemes for Chinese.
22:17:42 <coppro> d is closest to the thorn
22:18:02 <ais523> y used to be used to "typewriterise" the thorn
22:18:10 <ais523> that's why you get "the" spelt as "ye" in old texts
22:18:26 <ais523> well, printing press originally, rather than typewriter
22:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Gamma→y is actually pretty nice, since it's either voiced velar fricative or the "y" sound, both of which sound similer.
22:20:26 <pikhq> Voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative. The Japanese "sh"...
22:21:16 <pikhq> It's the least sensible romanisation scheme I know of.
22:23:09 <coppro> that one's just like a higher-pitched sh, isn't it?
22:23:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Protip: writing anything without any typesystem *at all* is a path to insanity.
22:23:29 <pikhq> coppro: Not higher-pitched, but it is a very close sound.
22:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> But getline returns a Church array of ASCII-encoded characters, while putstr takes an appending Church array.
22:24:54 <coppro> pikhq: I must be doing it wrong
22:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Where an "appending Church array" is a function which takes a value and sticks it in the cdr of its last cons.
22:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> As such, the output was being unpacked with (cons 256 256), rather than having it appended to it.
22:27:44 <pikhq> Pinyin is so bad that it makes me want to learn Mandarin for the sole sake of being able to ignore Pinyin.
22:28:00 <Phantom_Hoover> At least I know that it's just being completely wrong.
22:43:34 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you want a Romanisation that is fairly pronouncable? <-- I don't really care
22:44:30 <ais523> alpha->a, beta->b, gamma->c, delta->d, epsilon->e, zeta->f, eta->g, theta->h?
22:45:24 <alise> I'd like something I can us without memorising my special scheme.
22:45:30 <alise> Maybe I'll just use what the letters look like in English.
22:50:44 <alise> What I have right now:
22:50:56 <alise> αβγδεζηθικλμνξοπρστυφχψω
22:50:57 <alise> abgdezhqiklmnxoprstufcyw
22:52:23 * alise finds out how babel's greek option does it
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22:54:25 <alise> babel uses abgdezhjiklmnxoprstufqyw
22:54:36 <alise> which is almost exactly mine
22:54:49 <alise> why would it use q for \chi?!
22:56:04 <alise> why would it use j for theta?
22:56:08 <alise> I think my alphabet is the best so far.
22:56:09 <pikhq> Say, why don't you use letters with similar/same orthography?
22:56:18 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:56:23 <alise> pikhq: Whaddya mean?
22:56:27 <alise> Use letters that look similar?
22:56:37 <alise> Orthography is writing.
22:56:49 <pikhq> alise: No, letters that derived from the same letter in Phoenecian script.
22:56:55 <ais523> wow, Oracle just sued Google
22:56:58 <alise> pikhq: Okay. You go find those letters out.
22:57:02 <alise> ais523: just = a little while ago
22:57:12 <ais523> just = since I was last online
22:57:18 <ais523> do you know what the allegations are?
22:57:30 <alise> & i don't particularly care
22:57:40 <ais523> copyright and patent infringement, apparently
22:57:48 <alise> http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/FINAL_Complaint.pdf
22:58:00 <alise> ais523: you trudge through the legalese
22:58:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: * no longer officially supported as a source+binary release
22:58:24 <ais523> I bet someone will fork
22:58:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to be over Android's Java implementation, which Google wrote themselves.
22:59:26 <ais523> my guess as to what this is about is: Java's license requires you to stick to the Java standards
22:59:33 <ais523> and Android doesn't follow those standards
22:59:46 <alise> so, anyone want to bet on the probability that this would have happened if oracle /didn't/ acquire sun?
23:00:10 <ais523> Sun did sue Microsoft for much the same reason, and win
23:00:20 <ais523> that's likely to have encouraged Oracle to take on Google
23:00:50 <ais523> hmm, the scribd link stops working after several pages
23:00:59 <alise> what's the program to copy stdin to X11 clipboard/selection?
23:01:13 <alise> ais523: so use the pdf
23:01:16 <alise> http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/FINAL_Complaint.pdf
23:01:20 <alise> scribd is bullshit anyway
23:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Aren't there tonnes of 3rd-party Java implementations?
23:01:32 <alise> but your stupid filter stops me
23:01:38 <ais523> I'll grab it from the log
23:01:44 <alise> ais523: suggestion: replace links with "[link]", instead of filtering them out entirely
23:01:46 <alise> i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/FINAL_Complaint.pdf
23:01:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but they mostly follow the standards
23:02:13 <alise> ais523: ok, how about replacing them with (link /tmp/foo) where /tmp/foo contains the url >_>
23:02:16 <Gregor-W> http://pornthataiscanthave.com/
23:02:20 <alise> OR, how about just making them a dimmer colour.
23:02:33 * ais523 wonders what sort of domain "i.i.com.com" is
23:02:36 <alise> Gregor-W: Don't worry, ais523 won't miss it.
23:02:39 <alise> ais523: com.com = cnet
23:02:48 <alise> i.i = the weirdest smiley ever
23:02:53 <pikhq> alise: ab(g or c)dezh(DNE)(i or j)klmnxo(DNE)rsty(DNE)(DNE)(DNE)(DNE)
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23:03:07 <alise> pikhq: Well, that's not helpful. At all.
23:03:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Does Not Exist, I'd assume.
23:03:18 <alise> pikhq: Find an earlier common route :D
23:03:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:03:31 <pikhq> alise: The common ancestor *was Greek*!
23:03:32 <alise> Or a later one, if that's the issue.
23:03:51 <pikhq> The Roman alphabet just didn't borrow enough.
23:03:54 <ais523> hmm, this complaint isn't particularly interesting
23:04:02 <ais523> I think Google's response will be more interesting, along the lines of "we have a license"
23:04:07 <pikhq> alise: Would you like me to fill in the blanks with other things that make sense?
23:04:28 <alise> pikhq: Yes. Here are my romanisations for the blanks, just for the record:
23:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it looks like Oracle are just stropping over Google writing their own Java VM.
23:04:57 <alise> (I have upsilon as u instead, since y is psi)
23:05:51 <pikhq> alise: y comes from upsilon.
23:06:06 <ais523> German name for y is "Ypsilon"
23:06:06 <alise> But then what of psi?
23:06:13 <alise> again: then what of psi?
23:06:31 <pikhq> And I am absolutely not using q for theta; that's reserved for the (no longer used) Qoppa.
23:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't be bothered to Google variadic functions in Scheme; someöne here tell me how to do them.
23:06:44 <alise> pikhq: Oh, shut UP wrt Qoppa.
23:06:50 <pikhq> (okay, I may not have a choice)
23:06:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: (lambda (foo . rest) ...) (lambda rest ...)
23:07:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wrt that diaeresis: you need it on a bunch of other words too
23:07:22 <alise> e.g. the second a in variadic
23:07:33 <alise> suggestion: only diaeresis identical vowels.
23:07:56 <alise> Seriously, I can't think of a good romanisation for psi.
23:08:05 <alise> ais523: In some languages (most notably German), the name upsilon, (üppsilon) is used to refer to the Latin letter Y as well as the Greek letter.
23:08:08 <alise> ais523: that doesn't gel with what you said
23:08:26 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
23:08:27 <ais523> hmm, I'm going by what I was taught in school
23:08:39 <ais523> I don't find it completly implausible that the textbook was lying
23:09:22 <pikhq> Argh. Phi, chi, and psi have unknown origins.
23:11:05 <pikhq> abgdezhqiklmnxoprstyfcjw -- ?
23:11:39 <pikhq> The j is totally arbitrary.
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23:12:39 <Gregor-W> Anybody have suggestions for how I should arrange my music web site to clearly but non-confusingly give access to OGG, MP3, FLAC, DPR, DPR-pedal, PDF, RG and Ly files for each thing? :P
23:14:26 <Gregor-W> That much is obvious, but it's information overload to just have an enormous pile of links under each one.
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23:14:42 <alise> Gregor-W: Yes, I do have an idea.
23:14:57 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Drop-down menu is good!
23:15:12 <Gregor-W> alise: Are you considering sharing this idea? :P
23:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, it probably requires a redesign of the very concept of networks.
23:15:34 <alise> What's DPR{,-pedal}?
23:15:49 <Gregor-W> alise: Digital piano roll, and same with the pedal replaced by held notes.
23:16:08 <Gregor-W> A MIDI file, but I don't like to call it "MIDI" since that implies that some MIDI metadata is meaningful which isn't in DPRs.
23:16:14 <fizzie> Inscrutable icons -- preferrably completely made-up -- for different formats is also good.
23:16:20 <alise> Gregor-W: Performance - Notation
23:16:30 <alise> Gregor-W: Performance drop-downs to the audio files and the DPR files.
23:16:36 <alise> Notation drops down to the PDF, RG and Ly files.
23:16:45 <alise> Note: I thought of this before Phantom_Hoover, I just read it a bit later. :|
23:17:01 <Gregor-W> Nobody gets credit for the idea either way, so no crying ;)
23:17:14 <alise> I suggest the ordering for the menus be:
23:17:43 <alise> {OGG, MP3, FLAC, DPR, DPR-pedal} and {PDF, Rosegarden, LilyPond}
23:18:04 <Gregor-W> alise: So, the order I listed them in. Thanks X-P
23:18:12 <alise> I did manually order them :P
23:18:23 -!- augur has joined.
23:18:29 <alise> Rationale: OGG should be above MP3 for advocacy reasons and the fact that most people can play Ogg Vorbis these days; FLAC afterwards because most people don't want FLAC, and DPR lastly because nobody knows what the fuck DPR is.
23:18:44 <alise> PDF first for notation since most people just want to take a look, Rosegarden for the tinkerers, and LilyPond for people who want to criticise your source code.
23:18:47 <alise> pikhq: Which is why it's in the list.
23:18:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:19:05 <pikhq> Because freaks like me that are offended that there is not-FLAC in ~/audio
23:19:11 <pikhq> Because of, rather.
23:19:16 -!- augur has joined.
23:19:48 <alise> pikhq: Hell, I'm offended that non-Blu-Ray exists in ~/video.
23:20:01 <alise> Also, dammit, it should be ~/music. Unless you really keep random audio in there.
23:20:02 <Gregor-W> Blu-Ray isn't comparable to FLAC, it's still lossy :P
23:20:12 <pikhq> alise: It's not all music.
23:20:29 <alise> Gregor-W: Yes but UNFORTUNATELY I don't have that kind of hard disk or ability to force everyone to release in that format.
23:20:29 <Gregor-W> How about ~/media . That word is so broad as to be useless, therefore it's perfect.
23:20:30 <pikhq> Gregor-W: "Best you can get" in general, though.
23:20:37 <alise> Gregor-W: Even editing is done with lossy formats!
23:20:40 <alise> Just very high-quality lossy formats.
23:20:45 <Gregor-W> alise: The worst kind of editing.
23:20:47 <pikhq> Also, technically FLAC is still lossy. Just doesn't lose any data that humans can here.
23:20:55 <pikhq> Gregor-W: But but ~/video~
23:21:02 <alise> Gregor-W: Erm ... you do realise even the most HD movie is still edited in lossy format?
23:21:06 <alise> <pikhq> Also, technically FLAC is still lossy. Just doesn't lose any data that humans can here.
23:21:13 <alise> It is as lossy as zip.
23:21:20 <Gregor-W> alise: I'm just using "the worst kind" as a broad statement :P
23:21:25 <alise> deflac . flac = id
23:21:29 <pikhq> alise: No, no, the *audio encoding* is itself lossy.
23:21:40 <Gregor-W> FLAC is "lossy" in that you can't get audio to the input format of FLAC without loss, but that's a stupid argument.
23:21:42 <alise> That's raw digital audio data being lossy, not the FLAC encoding.
23:22:03 <alise> Show me a better analogue audio storage method than vinyl, and I'll consider your objection!
23:22:06 <pikhq> speaker . deflac . flac . microphone != id, though anyone who can *tell* is named Clark Kent.
23:22:08 <Gregor-W> That's like saying PNG is lossy because you can't take a photon-per-photon accurate picture.
23:22:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:22:33 <alise> pikhq: So wait, a tool that edits JPEGs without causing any quality distortion -- say rearranging parts of the image or something -- is lossy because JPEG is?
23:22:42 <alise> That MP3 cutting tool is lossy?
23:22:43 <pikhq> alise: I'm being silly is all.
23:23:27 <pikhq> Anyways: it still upsets me that people actually *make* greater-than-41kHz audio recordings.
23:23:36 <alise> The BDXL format supports 100GB and 128GB write-once discs[154][155] and 100GB rewritable discs for commercial applications. It was defined in June 2010.
23:23:41 <alise> Blu-Ray just got even hotter.
23:23:42 <pikhq> I'll give 48kHz a pass, but only barely.
23:24:04 <alise> pikhq: You must hate CDs.
23:24:19 <Vorpal> alise, useful for backups
23:24:34 <Vorpal> <alise> pikhq: So wait, a tool that edits JPEGs without causing any quality distortion -- say rearranging parts of the image or something -- is lossy because JPEG is?
23:24:40 <Vorpal> I used such a tool yesterday
23:24:45 <alise> Vorpal: What, a 128 GiB disc you can fit in a large-sized pocket?
23:24:50 <alise> Is only useful for backups?
23:24:51 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: We're just making fun of pikhq :P
23:24:53 <alise> You are the most boring fucking person alive.
23:25:02 -!- clumsy_ has joined.
23:25:12 <alise> One: Effectively infinite porn collection. Two: Multiple high-definition movies.
23:25:19 <alise> Three: IT'S 128 GIB IN A FUCKING CD-SIZED DISC
23:25:22 <alise> IT HAS EVERY USAGE THAT EXISTS
23:25:25 <Gregor-W> alise: Effectively infinite my foot!
23:25:28 <coppro> I can code and watch Futurama simultaneously
23:25:41 <alise> Gregor-W: How high-quality is your porn?!
23:25:42 <Gregor-W> alise: That would barely cover one of the dozens of GENRES of porn in my collection!
23:25:49 <Vorpal> <alise> Three: IT'S 128 GIB IN A FUCKING CD-SIZED DISC <-- yes?
23:25:51 <alise> Genres? I hope they're ontologically taxonomic!
23:26:17 <alise> My rock is so hard, baby.
23:26:29 <Vorpal> alise, my /home is larger than 128 GB
23:26:31 <alise> I'm trying to imagine what kind of penis could be called a "rock" XD
23:26:36 <Vorpal> mostly due to virtualbox
23:27:08 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, Nyquist-Shannon sez that digital audio can very well be lossless from analogue.
23:27:24 <augur> alise: a rock cock, obviously
23:27:31 <alise> pikhq: Not in any real-world circumstance, though.
23:27:49 <alise> augur: rock cock, portmanteau time! Wait ... that's just "rock"
23:28:11 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but... Good god, what is the possible benefit of going, say, 4 *times* that?
23:28:35 <pikhq> 128 kHz PCM audio. This is a real thing.
23:28:50 <augur> alise: or geodude's pokecock
23:29:03 <augur> presumably they reproduce, and they're made of rock
23:29:32 <alise> augur: they reproduce asexually
23:30:03 <alise> pikhq: I'm willing to believe that moar bitz than 16 help, though. That HDCD rip was noticeably different from the CD version.
23:30:15 <alise> I assume they didn't master the two separately, considering they were released at the ~same time.
23:30:24 <pikhq> alise: Yes, there exist actual differences from bitness.
23:30:42 <pikhq> You get a higher amount of dynamic range possible with higher bits.
23:30:51 <alise> pikhq: This wasn't even a /proper/ more-bitness; "HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.[2][3][4][5]"
23:30:51 <Vorpal> <alise> augur: they reproduce asexually <-- didn't they reproduce through pokemon daycare?
23:31:14 <pikhq> Even there, going beyond 24 bits is absolutely retarded.
23:31:15 <alise> pikhq: But it did sound better (the rip was processed with a DSP and spat out to a 24-bit FLAC)
23:31:26 <alise> The 4 extra bits were just zeroed out.
23:31:55 <Gregor-W> The most compelling reason to go beyond 24 bits is that there are no 24-bit computers.
23:31:57 <ais523> alise: pokemon reproduce sexually, or lay eggs
23:31:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, unless you are going to do something strange to it
23:32:14 <ais523> strangely, even the genderless ones reproduce sexually, but only with Dittos
23:32:14 <alise> ais523: Wow, Pokésex is actually canon?
23:32:21 <ais523> alise: it's kind-of brushed over
23:32:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, such as processing it
23:32:27 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Okay, true. 32-bit audio has reasons.
23:32:29 <Vorpal> as opposed to just playing it
23:32:30 <ais523> and even competitively relevnat
23:32:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's not how anything works at all.
23:32:39 <alise> ais523: Presumably Dittos are hermaphroditic.
23:32:40 <ais523> flawless dittos are highly valued as good parents
23:32:40 <fizzie> There are lots of 24-bit DSP chips in audio hardware, though.
23:32:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, well it does for images
23:32:48 <ais523> alise: they're shapechangers
23:32:53 <ais523> willing to act as either gender
23:32:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: You are thinking of *compression*.
23:32:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, viewing in 16 bits works fine, I use more for HDR processing though
23:33:01 <ais523> and can even become the opposite gender to "genderless", whatever that is
23:33:03 <alise> ais523: "This time, *I'll* have the cock!"
23:33:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, THAT is what I'm talking about
23:33:14 <ais523> alise: strangely, dittos can't breed with each other
23:33:19 <ais523> only with other species
23:33:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, HDR for audio doesn't make much sense though
23:33:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, I don't think you grok. 24 bit audio is enough to represent *the total dynamic range possible in air*.
23:33:26 <alise> ais523: This is getting hotter by the second!
23:33:39 <alise> Ditto: [appears as attractive female Pikachu] Pikachu: Pika...
23:33:42 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Hm, that seems ... unlikely ...
23:33:47 <alise> ais523: presumably the opposite of genderless is the entire gender spectrum
23:33:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about other materials?
23:33:50 <alise> sort of a gender overload
23:34:24 <ais523> (I actually have a flawless ditto on my own Pokémon cartridge, specifically for if I need to breed a flawless baby Pokémon)
23:34:39 * pikhq checks to make sure not talking out of ass
23:35:26 <ais523> (and used it to breed a flawless shiny Beldum, for use in a tournament)
23:35:33 <pikhq> Gregor-W: The dynamic range in decibels is *approximately* 6 dB per bit.
23:35:36 <alise> ais523: So wait, can a Ditto impregnate a female of another species with a Ditto?
23:35:53 <ais523> no, the child is always a member of the other species
23:36:02 <ais523> there is no canon-supported way to get a baby ditto
23:36:10 <ais523> which makes it quite a mystery where the things come from
23:36:32 <ais523> (more confusingly, a ditto + a male of the other species can give a baby of the other species; presumably the ditto lays the egg in that case)
23:37:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: perhaps, they're the right shape for it in their "natural" form
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23:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, dunno if you'll be interested, but I got the Lazy K IO thing working, and I'm trying to get a basic do notation working.
23:38:57 <oerjan> well do notation is simple, the haskell report contains explicit translation rules
23:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course, you have to engineer around Lazy K's lack of explicit scheduling by hand.
23:39:47 <oerjan> well the fail part is not relevant
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23:40:31 <oerjan> unless you add some kind of exceptions to your monad. or for that matter, pattern matching that might fail to your language
23:41:29 <oerjan> i didn't think the lack of scheduling would be a problem as long as your bind does it properly?
23:41:41 <alise> ais523: but if Dittos are specified to sexually reproduce it can't be mitosis
23:41:47 <alise> since it's not really reproduction if it's not a Ditto
23:42:02 <ais523> you can see /why/ the canon glosses over the details
23:42:05 <ais523> and only lets you see the end results
23:42:14 <oerjan> well you'll need to use reading operations that give the right scheduling when applied to the lazy input, i guess
23:42:26 <ais523> as a result, the details of inheritance, etc, are well known, the mechanisms aren't
23:42:41 <alise> ais523: pertinent question from friend: "...what if two dittos became the same Pokémon?"
23:42:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, link?
23:42:56 <ais523> alise: canonically, they don't mate in that situation
23:42:58 <ais523> although I have no idea why
23:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It comes down to the fact that Lazy K is non-strict, so you have no guarantee in which order IO will be performed.
23:43:15 <alise> ais523: also question: what if a Ditto becomes pregnant while female, then reverts to genderless form?
23:43:16 <Vorpal> alise couldn't dittos do both?
23:43:22 <alise> ais523: where does the baby go? how does the baby get born?
23:43:32 <ais523> alise: pokemon reproduction happens /very/ quickly
23:43:37 <ais523> and as I said, they lay eggs
23:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/lazy-k.html , look for "fall from grace".
23:43:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um i thought it should work as long as lazy k is maximally lazy
23:43:51 <ais523> I've known one Pokémon to lay two eggs in the same minute before
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23:43:57 <ais523> (although the eggs take quite a bit longer to hatch)
23:44:05 <alise> ais523: ok, what if the ditto changes back before the egg has hatched, really quickly?
23:44:18 <ais523> well, you never get to see that bit
23:44:20 <ais523> so the canon is silent
23:44:36 <alise> form a wildly guessing theory, that's the thing fans are good for
23:44:53 -!- mutoga has joined.
23:45:04 <Vorpal> just invoke rule 34 on dittos?
23:45:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well yeah it's a problem if you don't assume lazy-k is maximally lazy, yes
23:45:23 <oerjan> but presumable it is, so you can get around it
23:45:29 <ais523> Vorpal: inducing rule 34 on Pokémon is completely pointles
23:45:37 <ais523> they're the world's best rule 34 example ever
23:45:40 <alise> like half the rule 34 out there is pokemon
23:45:57 <Vorpal> ais523, I realised that after I said it
23:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yeah, you can get around it, but there are certain niggly cases which I can't think of how to deal with using the bind operator alone.
23:46:15 <ais523> so you could probably easily find ditto porn
23:46:18 <ais523> it just wouldn't be canon
23:46:27 <alise> ais523: confirmed, ditto porn exists
23:46:50 <alise> it sheds no light on this situation
23:46:50 <ais523> alise: it exist for every species that's been officially announced or even leaked unofficially, even if we don't know the details yet
23:47:01 <alise> i guess nobody is crazy enough to create ditto pregnancy porn
23:47:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm... i could imagine it would be a problem if you had some f such that a >>= f does not cause a to be looked at at all until it's too late...
23:47:54 <alise> http://thedailypos.org/content/coralmayhem/images/baddittobad.jpg <-- This Ditto is apparently just hugging, as it has no genitals.
23:48:09 <alise> ais523: also pertinent question from the same person: "Can dittos love?" XD
23:48:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: so you need to write your bind such that it forces a to be applied first
23:48:34 <ais523> alise: I don't think there's a really common shipping involving dittos
23:48:45 <ais523> although you get all sorts of that sort of thing at the fringe
23:48:52 <ais523> it's certainly possible for Pokémon to love, though
23:49:04 <alise> ais523: they asked it because they were considering the sad situation of two dittos attracted to each other
23:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH all of the IO functions give appending strings, so it's not as much of an issue in practice.
23:49:34 <ais523> alise: I'm getting slightly tearful just thinking about it
23:50:33 <alise> ais523: waitwait, dittos can breed with genderless pokemon?
23:50:50 <ais523> not /all/ genderless pokémon, admittedly
23:51:03 <ais523> and it produces genderless children, of the same time as the parent non-ditto
23:51:21 <alise> ais523: so, wait, can dittos transform into dittos?
23:51:38 <alise> because then a ditto could have sex with a ditto because dittos can transform into genderless pokemon to breed with genderless pokemon
23:51:39 <ais523> although it tends to be kind-of pointless
23:51:45 <alise> ergo if two dittos transform into a ditto, they can reproduce
23:51:46 <ais523> alise: as I said, not all genderless pokemon
23:52:04 <ais523> not all gendered pokémon too, fwiw; e.g. ditto+latias does nothing
23:52:24 <ais523> because crosses are more normal in this sort of hypothetical discussion
23:52:44 <alise> maybe dittos don't reproduce, baby dittos just spontaneously form
23:53:02 <ais523> / means something slightly different
23:53:10 <alise> hmm, it'd be specific members of a species
23:53:22 <ais523> I don't read that sort of fiction ;)
23:53:40 <ais523> although I bet you could find an expert on Pokémon slashfiction if you tried
23:53:43 <alise> That ;) turned it from a regular ais523 statement to something entirely more creepy for some reason I can't put my finger on.
23:53:59 <ais523> alise: because I never use that particular smiley
23:54:05 <ais523> it was actually a typo for :)
23:54:17 <alise> actually it's more because the ;) always seems vaguely sexual to me
23:54:21 <ais523> which I do use occasionally, for ironic reasons of my own
23:54:33 <alise> wow, there's a disc that can contain 1 to 10 TiB
23:54:35 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
23:54:47 <pikhq> Gregor-W: *Anyways*. The maximum volume in air is 194 dB. 24-bit audio gets up to 146 dB. And 32-bit audio gets up to 194 dB.
23:54:59 <alise> pikhq: what about SPACE MUSIC
23:55:02 <pikhq> Gregor-W: So clearly, 32-bit audio is the maximum audio bit rate that makes any sense at all.
23:56:04 <pikhq> Though even that makes only some sense; 130 dB is where the sound starts *directly causing pain*.
23:56:50 <Gregor-W> Below that, it only causes pain indirectly by being shitty music.
23:57:52 <pikhq> 194 dB will cause pain to pretty much everything with the ability to feel pain.
23:58:20 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Trinity_explosion_film_strip.jpg A photo of 194 dB sound.
23:58:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: note that if the fundamental thing you do with a >>= f is to look at its _output_ (which it should be) then a _is_ always considered first. so what you want to ensure i think is that whenever you look at the output of a primitive action, it's input effect is guaranteed to be produced first. if this is true for primitive actions i think it will work for composed ones
23:59:36 <oerjan> for bind, you need to ensure that the output part of a can be extracted from a >>= f without looking at f.
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