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00:27:08 <cpressey> Well, the reflective version of (what I was talking about) still does apply to Turing machines, at least. It's just a formulation of the HP where the input is "me" instead of "another machine like me".
00:28:09 <cpressey> Also, Eightebed is nearing completion. I have the runtime support built, I think, I just need to test it.
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00:50:12 <zzo38> Do you ever use inverted logic to make your programs more efficient?
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01:24:58 <pikhq> I CAN FIX ALL THAT IS WRONG WITH THE MUSIC PLAYING ON HERE
01:25:08 <pikhq> Rockbox supports SDL.
01:25:35 <pikhq> I'm quite satisfied with music playing on my desktop.
01:25:49 <pikhq> And Rockbox is not bad for portable playing. A bit rough UI-wise, but not bad.
01:26:22 <pikhq> Pixi can run it natively, as well.
01:26:32 <zzo38> I am writing a program with SDL, now.
01:27:38 <pikhq> Now to bother getting the cross compiler.
01:29:11 <zzo38> Do you know what the sample rate is of a PC speaker?
01:32:07 <alise> <zzo38> Do you ever use inverted logic to make your programs more efficient?
01:32:09 <zzo38> It should seem that a program that emulates it should ideally use only sample rates which are either a multiple of the PC speaker rate or a factor of the PC speaker rate.
01:33:03 <zzo38> alise: By inverted logic like that, I mean storing various boolean and bit fields in the inverted way than normal, in some cases but not all cases.
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01:33:49 <zzo38> (Sort of like how electronic circuits sometimes do; they might put a bar over the signal name or put a circle on the pin in the diagram)
01:35:02 <zzo38> In CZZT, the video_mem.flash_state variable is toggled between 0x7F and 0xFF
01:35:23 <zzo38> (Where 0x7F means blinking text is displayed, and 0xFF means blinking text is hidden.)
01:36:19 <zzo38> Hopefully, does this way of storing the values makes sense to you, or not?
01:40:52 <zeotrope> so 1 means block the option, 0 means unblocked?
01:41:05 <zeotrope> just redefining the use of boolean values
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01:41:33 <zzo38> zeotrope: Depending on which way is more efficient you might use 0 for blocked or 1 for blocked, it depends on the program.
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01:42:58 <zzo38> In the blinking text case, however, normal boolean values (0 and 1) are not used, instead 0xFF and 0x7F are used, and there is a reason for that
02:11:50 <augur> http://i.imgur.com/7s5jc.jpg
02:11:55 <augur> this is the greatest thing every, i think
02:20:22 <alise> augur: i love the best party
02:20:35 <augur> alise: i cant disagree
02:21:16 <augur> i feel its like what simon pegg's political party would be like if he had one
02:21:29 <alise> the great thing is
02:21:46 <augur> i get the feeling that icelanders are some of the most care free nutballers on the planet
02:21:51 <alise> i bet it'll do a world of good for reykjavík
02:21:55 <alise> since he's actually, you know
02:22:03 <augur> http://www.grapevine.is/Home/
02:22:19 <augur> theres a fuckin article titled Grand Old Aunt Bjork
02:22:42 <augur> an editorial with a guy yawning widemouthedly saying SO LONG SUCKERS!
02:23:19 <augur> theres breaking news about a concert hall on fire
02:23:29 <augur> i dont know if these guys give a damn or not
02:23:32 <alise> i just wish that they had more ... people
02:23:39 <augur> i feel like they realized their country basically imploded
02:23:53 <augur> and realized, hey, our country imploded, but nothing is any worse
02:24:05 <augur> it was all in our heads in the first place
02:25:45 <alise> augur: where is that mayor's address from?
02:25:56 <augur> the print version of the link i just gave
02:27:54 <alise> i think ... i think i want to buy this paper regularly
02:28:11 <alise> "Improve your feeling of self-worth by joining our prestigious mailing list. It’s free, yet with a veneer of exclusivity and ridiculous overpricing unmatched on the internet."
02:28:28 <alise> link me to the specific article?
02:28:37 <augur> its like their country imploded, and they realized it didnt matter
02:28:42 <augur> i dont have the link to the article. :|}
02:28:50 <augur> what are you, blind
02:28:54 <alise> it has text antialiasing
02:28:56 <alise> windows text antialiasing
02:29:09 <alise> it has windows subpixel antialiasing
02:29:17 <augur> i dont know where its from on the site then
02:29:18 <alise> and little pixel icons
02:29:21 <alise> in the bottom-right
02:29:23 <alise> augur: possibly form a pdf
02:29:27 <alise> due to the text flowing
02:29:40 <alise> multi-column is a bitch - or horrific - on the web obvs
02:29:53 <alise> it's definitely not html.
02:34:06 <alise> Sgeo: X_X stealing from/attacking Izchak is apparently considered "extremely poor form"
02:34:17 <alise> That's ... pretty retarded
02:38:16 <Sgeo> Would probably be worse if your character's name was "Cancer"
02:43:00 * alise tries to talk about ais523's experience with Mathematica in #nethack without actually mentioning his name
02:43:04 <alise> It's like juggling, only painful.
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02:45:05 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek
02:45:38 <alise> I know what a Dalek is.
02:45:43 <nooga> Dalek as a part of British culture
02:46:41 <nooga> "Hiding behind the sofa whenever the Daleks appear" has been cited as an element of British cultural identity
02:46:49 <augur> i think the whole country of iceland is going through some sort of collective enlightenment, alise
02:46:54 <nooga> 2008 survey indicated that 9 out of 10 British children were able to identify a Dalek correctly.
02:47:12 <augur> i think its like one of those zen tales about the pupil reaching enlightenment through some absurdist situation
02:47:17 <augur> i think this is iceland right now
02:48:09 <augur> they've all just been shoved into a socio-political koan of epic proportion and they're either all going insane, or all having some sort of great awakening that will end with the country vanishing in some sort of mass ascension to a higher plane of existence
02:48:25 * alise names his next nethack character Iceland
02:49:47 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Radio_Times_Vote_Dalek_cover.jpg
02:50:17 <alise> the RT is one of my favourite british publications :p
02:50:20 <alise> and not for the tv listings, either
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02:50:52 <augur> nooga: the daleks are obviously behind the BNP
02:51:02 <nooga> even i can catch the subtle joke of that cover
02:51:32 <alise> it's 2005, it's not a bnp reference
02:51:40 <nooga> augur: i can imagine them ... "EX TER MI NATE"
02:51:40 <alise> ok so the bnp existed then but still
02:51:57 <augur> alise: i didnt think it was
02:52:04 <augur> i was making a snipe at the BNP
02:52:28 <alise> i was referring to nooga
02:52:45 <alise> Sgeo: the way you act in #nethack you'd think we're married, lol
02:52:49 <alise> half of your lines have the word alise in them :P
02:53:26 <augur> apparently the BNP got 14.6% of the vote in Barking this year
02:53:34 <augur> the name is quite appropriate.
02:55:28 <augur> oddly, Nick Griffin is a proponent of peak oil preparedness
02:56:13 <alise> because it's the arabs
02:56:32 <augur> American far right people think peak oil is a liberal lie
02:56:47 <augur> preparedness in that he thinks peak oil is a serious threat to our civilization
02:57:16 <augur> but he thinks global warming is a lie
02:57:30 <augur> its odd, because in america politicians are either believers of both, or deniers of both
02:57:32 <nooga> i've heard that russians are still finding new oil deposits
02:57:35 <augur> you never find a split
02:57:40 <augur> nooga: oh they certainly are
02:57:44 <augur> but that doesn't mean a think
02:58:02 <augur> there's this thing called ERoEI
02:58:17 <nooga> + we've got shittons of earth gas under Poland
02:58:28 <nooga> sadly, we cannot mine it
02:58:29 <augur> you can find new oil deposits all you want, but if the net energy returned from that deposit is less than the energy cost of pumping it out of the ground, refining it, etc.
02:58:35 <augur> then its a net loss, not a net gain
02:58:42 <augur> so new oil doesnt mean theres no peak
02:59:05 <augur> plus, there's also the problem that our oil consumption doubles every 40 years or so
02:59:28 <augur> which means in the next 40 years we're going to have to use as much oil as we have in all of history prior to now
02:59:34 <nooga> icelanders should be happy
02:59:50 <augur> i think they are, if their politicians are anything to go by
03:00:09 <CakeProphet> I don't believe in peak oil because I don't believe in mathematics!
03:00:17 <nooga> they can produce hydrogen using geothermal energy and turn it back to water while driving their eco-friendly, hydrogen-powered cars
03:00:29 <augur> cars are a stupid idea anyway
03:00:56 <alise> CARS CARRYING OTHER CARS
03:01:02 <alise> I think I have made my point.
03:01:06 <alise> CARS: AWESOME because they NEST.
03:01:33 <augur> alise: CARS CARRYING CDRS
03:02:15 <CakeProphet> so a Prussian walks into a bar with two arabs, and they have to change a lightbulb. What's the punch line? don't ask me.
03:02:28 <alise> IS AN IBM PC INTEGRATED
03:04:47 <nooga> i just imagined alise as a dalek, screeching these words written in capitals
03:04:56 <alise> GOOD NEWS EVERYONE
03:05:18 <alise> I INVENTED A MACHINE THAT CREATES A HORRIBLE MUTANT VOICE IN YOUR HEAD!
03:06:09 <nooga> time to sleep, 'night
03:06:15 <Gregor> alise: That worked really well.
03:06:41 <Gregor> alise: Except the horrible mutant voice was Farnsworth's, so it really wasn't that horrible-mutanty.
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03:08:41 <alise> Gregor: BUT WAS IT ADDITIONALLY DALEK
03:09:08 <alise> (IT IS ALREADY WELL-KNOWN THAT FARNSWORTH'S VOICE CAN BE RECALLED BY A NORMALLY CASED VERSION OF THE ABOVE STATEMENTS; HOWEVER ITS EFFECTIVENESS WHEN UPPERCASED, THUS CREATING A DALEK TONE, WAS BEFOREHAND UNKNOWN)
03:28:25 <CakeProphet> and several modules worth of boilerplate code is now no longer necessary.
03:33:55 <alise> Is this your way of telling us something, Gregor?
03:34:06 * Gregor stabs alise with a fork.
03:34:22 <alise> I'm not very tasty...
03:37:04 <pikhq> alise: WE SHALL EXTERMINATE!
03:38:12 <alise> I GOTSA BE UPS AT 9AM LOLS
03:39:14 <Sgeo> I've never seen Doctor Who
03:39:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: Okay. 2 years should fix that.
03:39:58 <pikhq> (1 serial a day, you'll finish the series in 2 years!)
03:40:32 <alise> pikhq: If Sgeo has even the mildest allergic reaction to either cheese or camp, he can just skip straight to Tennant XD
03:41:03 <pikhq> alise: Okay, fair enough.
03:41:14 <pikhq> Classic Who is nearly powered by cheese and camp, after all.
03:41:19 <Sgeo> Um, I don't seem to have a severe allergy to soap-operaness, considering that I've seen SGU ep 14 (or 15, I forgot) and still going
03:41:56 <alise> Sgeo: You know, Gregor is the only person so far to have said that SGU is a soap.
03:42:57 <alise> Admittedly, coppro is the only one who would be able to give an opinion.
03:43:18 <pikhq> alise: From what I've *seen* of SGU, it's quite soapy.
03:43:29 <pikhq> Of course, I was not able to finish the premiere due to that.
03:43:41 <alise> Gregor: What is 8395345x7843574, and also if you took more than 1 ms to work out the previous question, prove ZFC is inconsistent.
03:43:44 <alise> Gregor: What is 8395345x7843574, and also if you took more than 1 ms to work out the previous question, prove ZFC is inconsistent?
03:43:57 <alise> pikhq: The pilot ... wasn't soapy at all
03:44:25 <Sgeo> Even SG-1 showed the characters' pasts on occasion
03:44:44 <alise> It's not like character building and interaction is all soapy ..........
03:44:55 <Sgeo> I know that's not really "soap", but it's what I'm mostly noticing
03:45:36 <pikhq> alise: The pilot, I mostly reacted to "ZOMG ITS NOT SG1". And then I tried giving it another shot, gagged, and left.
03:45:39 <Sgeo> Maybe I should watch a soap opera so I know what soapiness is
03:45:51 <alise> pikhq: Well, yeah. It isn't SG-1.
03:45:58 <pikhq> They should stop beating that dead horse.
03:45:59 <alise> SG-1 is notable for having something like zero character development. :P
03:46:07 <alise> pikhq: What, Stargate?
03:46:10 <Sgeo> Hey, Sam was gullible once1
03:46:18 <alise> Stargate's a pretty solid franchise.
03:46:24 <alise> Atlantis was... not as good as SG-1.
03:46:29 <alise> The animated series was apparently unspeakable.
03:46:31 <Sgeo> I liked Atlantis
03:46:36 <alise> And SGU may very well suck, from what people say about how it develops.
03:46:39 <Sgeo> Never saw Infinity
03:46:40 <pikhq> The last 2 seasons of SG-1 were pretty meh.
03:46:41 <Gregor> SG-1 did do a pretty impressive job of having all the premise for character development, with no actual development.
03:46:42 <alise> But the movie and SG-1 were great!
03:46:58 <alise> SG-1 was like Voyager, except without only one possible episode format, and not shit.
03:47:06 <alise> So it wasn't really like Voyager... at all...
03:47:18 <alise> Incidentally, SG-1's name expands to "Stargate Stargate One".
03:47:18 <pikhq> So... The *potential* of Voyager without any of the *failure* of Voyager.
03:47:22 <alise> Just thought you might like to know.
03:47:23 <Sgeo> SG-1 did not take place on an isolated ship
03:47:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: Nor did Voyager.
03:48:16 <Sgeo> Well, I guess they're both in the same boat of learning about the universe outside of what they know for the first time
03:48:23 <alise> Come on, you can't analyse Voyager.
03:48:28 <Sgeo> All the SG series (except Infinity?) are like that, really
03:48:31 <alise> It's not ABOUT anything.
03:48:45 <alise> Sgeo: Infinity isn't canon, anyway.
03:48:55 <Sgeo> I should watch it
03:49:04 <pikhq> alise: It's about trying to be TNG Seasons 8+ and failing horribly.
03:49:06 <Sgeo> If I enjoy it, I know my "bad fiction" detector is broken
03:49:36 <Sgeo> I've suspected the detector has been broken for quite a long while
03:49:36 <alise> pikhq: It achieves in pure shittiness what DS9 achieved in absolute boredom.
03:49:38 <pikhq> alise: Not even joking. Their season numbers start at 8.
03:49:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, wait what?
03:50:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: Production code season numbers.
03:50:38 <pikhq> It really, truly is an attempt at doing TNG seasons 8+ and failing horribly.
03:50:58 <alise> DOCTOR WHOOOOO! (HEY!)
03:51:14 <alise> This interjection brought to you by the Timelords.
03:51:44 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Doctorin'_The_Tardis.jpg
03:52:32 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleupg47ww5
03:52:38 <Sgeo> (Warning: TV Tropes)
03:52:53 <alise> It's almost 4am; I have to be up at 9am.
03:53:08 <alise> Yes, I know what Five Minute is.
03:53:20 <alise> (The Voyager and TNG ones are the only good ones, btw.)
03:53:34 * pikhq is looking at a cast photo of Voyager.
03:53:44 <alise> pikhq: Also known as "used toilet paper".
03:53:51 <pikhq> You know what would fix Voyager in a few moments?
03:53:55 <pikhq> Tom Paris *with a beard*.
03:54:03 <pikhq> Much like Riker's beard saved TNG.
03:54:27 <alise> pikhq: But Paris would be hideous with a beard. Riker was SUAVE AND HANDSOME.
03:54:32 <alise> In fact, bearded Paris is now making me vomit.
03:56:17 <pikhq> alise: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:William_Riker,_2364-2.jpg Okay, seriously. Do you think, just from this picture, that a beard would look good?
03:56:43 <pikhq> It's about as face-punch-inducing as Paris.
03:56:59 <alise> Dear god, he's even more hideous in that pose.
03:57:05 <alise> ...he did something to his eyes the next season
03:57:11 <alise> his eye sockets retracted slightly
03:57:19 <alise> pikhq: His chin... dear god.
03:57:23 <alise> Delete that image.
03:57:24 <pikhq> No, he *just* grew a beard.
03:57:40 <pikhq> He is a man who absolutely, positively must wear a beard at all times.
03:57:58 <pikhq> I should note that Frakes has worn a beard since.
03:58:25 <alise> He didn't grow the beard for Trek :P
03:59:02 <pikhq> No, he grew it between seasons; I know.
03:59:16 <pikhq> But still; he must never ever shave.
04:00:13 <alise> Star Trek modification idea: Exactly like normal, except Riker's head is flipped upside down. Always.
04:00:18 <alise> Do not question this.
04:01:40 <alise> Also, occasionally Picard's head flips upside down and back again a few times in succession, after he finishes talking.
04:03:51 <pikhq> You seem to be going for a Salad Fingers vibe.
04:04:04 <alise> Hmm, unintentionally.
04:05:00 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif
04:05:16 <alise> Now make the teddy evil.
04:09:05 <alise> if wedding cakes are evil
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05:03:57 <Gregor> I MISSED THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF LONELYDINO.COM :( :( :(
05:05:22 <Gregor> But at least there are finally new comics again :)
05:06:01 <Gregor> And I made this excuse for why there haven't been any comics posted in about a month: "We're back! Sorry for the delay, I was busy writing imaginary Ryan North wedding invitations to myself and then crying myself to sleep."
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05:15:08 <Gregor> Last I was told, Ryan North still reads the T-Rex is Lonely RSS feed :P
05:17:30 <Sgeo> How about selling me a SDSM?
05:26:13 <Gregor> If I had to guess, I would say Quadrescence was going to build a computer, then didn't.
05:27:09 <Quadrescence> Gregor: yeah, I was going to have a workstation for some graphics shit but bla bla
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05:32:24 <pikhq> David Firth has made things for TV
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09:17:48 <Vorpal> I seem to have random DNS failures... How strange...
09:29:43 <olsner> how random? what's the entropy of your DNS failures?
09:30:01 <olsner> they're probably just pseudo-random anyway
09:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Or maybe THEY don't want you to know the domain names.
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11:32:30 <Vorpal> <olsner> how random? what's the entropy of your DNS failures? <-- sometimes resolving returns NXDOMAIN when it shouldn't. If you try again it works.
11:33:06 <Vorpal> dns failure on stuff like google.com feels really strange
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14:23:16 <cpressey> You'll never get away with it, you know!
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14:33:19 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: no, never heard of him
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14:38:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was the intended word?
14:38:53 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dord
14:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> To what extent can the BNF be considered equivalent to algebraic data?
15:01:52 <zeotrope> Phantom_Hoover: BNF binds expressions to symbols, is recursive
15:02:09 <zeotrope> Phantom_Hoover: apart from substitution what manipulation can you do with it?
15:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But I think you can represent the abstract structure with algebraic types.
15:13:59 <Vorpal> zeotrope, Are you new here? Or long time idler?
15:15:09 * Phantom_Hoover loves the way the IO monad in Haskell is described as adding the world as an extra parameter and returning it along with the value.
15:15:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if you treat the world lazily, as an infinitely large lookup table from inputs to outputs, you can actually implement it like that
15:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I think that's basically how I did it in Lazy K.
15:17:08 <ais523> it's how Haskell does it if you replace all the monads with their definitions
15:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Except the lazy evaluation means that the input world and the output world don't always line up properly.
15:17:29 <ais523> err, just the one world, I mean
15:17:42 <Vorpal> I find the IO monad slightly mind bending.
15:17:54 <ais523> you run your program and it returns a lazy function which, for all possible input sequences, returns the matching output sequence
15:18:11 <Vorpal> was that directed at Phantom_Hoover or me?
15:18:19 <ais523> this function is infinitely large, but who cares, it's lazy so you only ever run a finite amount
15:18:25 <ais523> Vorpal: at the channel, really
15:18:35 <Vorpal> <ais523> you run your program and it returns a lazy function which, for all possible input sequences, returns the matching output sequence <-- it makes perfect sense
15:19:21 <Vorpal> ais523, but why does it need to be infinitely large? In what sense is it infinitely large? Code wise?
15:19:35 <ais523> you can implement it as finite code
15:19:47 <ais523> but basically you're building a lookup table, and the table itself is infinite
15:19:53 <ais523> but as it's generated programmatically, you don't care
15:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> The id function, for instance, is finite, but it can handle infinite input and output for these purposes.
15:20:33 <Vorpal> ais523, yes I was considering the example: read one single decimal digit, return it's value + 1, on any other input just return 0.
15:22:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, POSIX compliant cat?
15:22:29 <Vorpal> I wonder if any esolang actually has a POSIX compliant cat... hm
15:22:54 <Vorpal> I think I could implement one in funge-98 by using FILE (to handle space issues and such)
15:23:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone probably has, in one of the more practical ones.
15:23:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I don't know of any other esolang that has the required command line parameter and file IO support
15:23:57 <Vorpal> though even befunge98 can't do it without the FILE fingerprint, due to how i works
15:24:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there's always kwrap and PSOX if you can do byte IO.
15:24:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if you don't care about command-line args, BF does it just fine
15:24:40 <ais523> assuming EOF=-1 and unbounded integers
15:25:03 <Vorpal> (newlines of all sorts turned into incrementing y coordinate (and resetting x coordinate), space leaving current value as it is)
15:25:30 <Vorpal> ais523, why unbounded integers? If you have byte IO + 1 you could presumably do it anyway?
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15:25:45 <ais523> but nobody uses 0..257 wrapping BF
15:25:53 <ais523> I suppose you could use a 16-bit version
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15:25:58 <ais523> which is slightly more plausilbe
15:26:21 <Vorpal> because it doesn't make sense otherwise
15:26:28 <Vorpal> considering the range of a byte is [0,255]
15:26:32 <ais523> well, it doesn't really make sense either way
15:30:38 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS WHEN I QUOTE A LET FORM THAT IS NOT A SYNTAX ERROR
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15:35:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, (define quote #f) ?
15:35:18 <Vorpal> that should make it stop working
15:35:29 <Vorpal> in which case it is a lot more curious
15:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I did no such thing, and ' wasn't working either.
15:35:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what did you do then?
15:35:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh maybe it dumped you to a debugger prompt? If it has that
15:36:08 <Vorpal> I know clisp and sbcl does that sometimes
15:36:19 <fizzie> You can't (define quote #f), quote is a macro.
15:36:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I thought it was a special form
15:36:48 <fizzie> Well, a special form, macro, whichever.
15:36:58 <fizzie> Not something you can use as an identifier, anyway.
15:37:03 <Vorpal> very big difference indeed
15:37:33 <Vorpal> because I shudder at the thought of what the implementation of a macro quote would look like
15:38:11 <fizzie> It could use some sort of implementation-specific quotation magic.
15:38:51 <Sgeo> Wow... that was a crap resolution to an awesome plotline
15:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> zeotrope, http://pastebin.com/3uvKyqsf is that program you described, in the SKI calculus with the IO model ais summed up.
15:39:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, it probably doesn't work in clisp
15:39:11 <Vorpal> but it does in plt-r5rs
15:39:23 <fizzie> It doesn't work in the only Scheme I have here; I'm not exactly sure if R5RS speaks of the case.
15:39:28 <fizzie> *** ERROR IN (console)@1.9 -- Macro name can't be used as a variable: quote
15:40:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, don't really know CL, but considering what I know _about_ it I would be surprised if you could do it.
15:40:13 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure there are at least some implementations that let you define-syntax quote to something not-working, and where that will also make ' stop working, since 'foo is expanded to (quote foo) already by read.
15:40:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, which implementation is that?
15:40:25 <fizzie> Gambit v4.4.4, it seems.
15:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, no, I mean CL has about 7 different functions for defining things.
15:40:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh yeah, defun and such, right
15:40:57 <Vorpal> unless that is elisp(?)
15:41:14 <Vorpal> presumably there is one to define functions however. Would be very strange if there wasn't
15:43:05 <fizzie> CL has that silly function/variable namespace split.
15:43:53 <fizzie> Okay, let's retroactively remove the word "silly" and substitute something inoffensive there.
15:44:23 <Vorpal> I'm no CL fan. Nor do I hate it
15:44:32 <Vorpal> so who would the flamewar be against?
15:46:21 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, R5RS does not explicitly say what should happen if you (define quote ..). The syntax for a define like that is "(define <variable> <expression>)", and the syntax for <variable> is "any <identifier> that isn't also a <syntactic keyword>".
15:46:33 <zeotrope> Vorpal: new I guess, visit from time to time
15:46:40 <zeotrope> Phantom_Hoover: what program would that be?
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15:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> zeotrope, the one which reads a single char, then adds 1 if it's a number or returns 0 otherwise.
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16:00:39 <Vorpal> file A pathname of an input file. If no file operands are specified, the standard input shall be used. If a file is '-', the cat utility shall read from the standard input at that point in the
16:00:39 <Vorpal> sequence. The cat utility shall not close and reopen standard input when it is referenced in this way, but shall accept multiple occurrences of '-' as a file operand.
16:00:47 <Vorpal> what does "The cat utility shall not close and reopen standard input when it is referenced in this way, but shall accept multiple occurrences of '-' as a file operand." really mean?
16:00:59 <Vorpal> (yes I'm implementing POSIX cat in befunge98 now...)
16:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I assume it means that it doesn't just change FD 0 to be the file it's catting.
16:03:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not sure how the multiple - would work then... hm
16:04:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well you only end reading stdin at EOF
16:04:46 <Phantom_Hoover> You have a handle used for input, and duplicate stdin onto it when you need it.
16:05:13 <Vorpal> just wondering how that is handled from befunge
16:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> What was that thing a while ago about OOP being a subset of closures?
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16:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Does anyone particularly know why it's impossible to select text on Snopes?
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17:51:01 <zzo38> Do you know if there is any way in SDL to tell another thread to pause?
17:51:22 <ais523> I've used SDL, but not its threads
17:51:38 <ais523> but generally speaking, doing so at arbitrary points isn't safe because it can block locks in library functions, causing a deadlock
17:51:46 <ais523> instead, just set a variable that tells the other thread to sleep
17:52:17 <zzo38> Will it cause a deadlock even if it is unpaused later?
17:53:11 <ais523> the deadlock is because it deadlocks the thread that would unpause it
17:53:17 <ais523> so there's never a chance to unpause it later
17:53:29 <ais523> deadlocks are between two threads, rather than in one
17:53:44 <zzo38> O that's how it works.
17:54:00 <ais523> does anyone here know how to effectively manage a two-column look via standard HTML and CSS? Or should I resort to tables?
17:54:11 <ais523> (that is, two independent columns, not wrapping into two columns)
17:54:38 <zzo38> ais523: If you want two independent columns perhaps just use tables?
17:54:46 <zzo38> But I am not sure why you need two columns
17:54:55 <ais523> I don't need them, it just looks nicer
17:55:40 <ais523> I could just use a float, but that's bad for making the two columns equal
17:56:01 <zzo38> I always use minimal HTML, so I don't use things like that. If the user wants to look nicer, can change the color setting in browser config
17:56:41 <fizzie> Some of the new CSS N (I've forgotten which N) features was some sort of explicit multicolumn-thing support. I guess that was more wrapping-into-two-columns thing, though.
17:56:44 <zzo38> You should not use tables for the only reason to look nicer. Tables are only for putting data in rows and columns. CSS can be used if you want thing look differently
17:57:09 <fizzie> The ones I've seen have been float-driven, though.
17:57:12 <zzo38> fizzie: If it is for wrapping into two columns, is that for paged media?
17:57:49 <zzo38> (I suppose it can also be used for continuous media if it is inside of a fixed size container)
17:58:27 <fizzie> It doesn't even have to be a fixed-size container, it just puts column breaks so that the column heights are more or less equal.
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17:58:37 <Gregor-W> RE-CAPTCHA of the day: bestagan the
17:58:42 <Gregor-W> Yeah, that's totally a bestagan word.
17:59:13 <fizzie> Is it just me, or have recaptchas become somehow more difficult lately? Have all the easy ones been recognized already?
17:59:22 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to go watch some SGI
17:59:35 <zzo38> fizzie: I still suppose, it is more useful for paged media
17:59:58 <zzo38> Although, for designing documents for printing, I find TeX more useful
18:00:00 <ais523> fizzie: bots manage RECAPTCHAs with about a 30% success rate nowaday
18:00:08 <ais523> which is enough to just keep trying until one works
18:00:20 <Gregor-W> fizzie: I think it's because they're not friggin' words :P
18:00:31 <Gregor-W> To quote myself: "Is it just me, or have most of the words on RE-CAPTCHA turned into deetry bestagan nonsense?"
18:00:46 <ais523> Gregor-W: that's probably why they're hard to OCR
18:02:09 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't think they were so unwordy (or just distorted) earlier.
18:03:06 <zzo38> The other problem with CAPTCHA, is they require Javascript and images turned on (sometimes audio turned on also works), you cannot do it with plain text. Use a plain text CAPTCHA next time, it is more faster and is usable over nearly any protocol, and can be managed individually for each service (and even change it sometimes)
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18:03:51 <fizzie> ais523: Anyway, this looks like a reasonably clear un-hacky CSS two-column layout: http://matthewjamestaylor.com/blog/perfect-2-column-double-page.htm -- I've seen all kinds of Javascript trickery, but this one has just some divs (a bit more than I'd think necessary, but...) and percentage widths.
18:04:58 <Gregor-W> I like that one of the layouts is "3 column Holy Grail" :P
18:05:51 <fizzie> Even the others call themselves "perfect"; no false (or any other sort of) modesty there.
18:06:53 <zzo38> There are some uses for Javascript and images and stuff, but many web pages don't work without all that stuff, even though their intended function is not something that should require it.... sometimes these things are useful, but I think they are way overused
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18:08:07 <Sgeo> The other Stargate shows tend to introduce their alien characters in some way
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18:10:01 <zzo38> How do I emulate that PAUSE key can pause a DOS program, in SDL?
18:10:22 <ais523> pause your event loops and timers when it's pressed
18:10:40 <ais523> well, only the events that you want to pause
18:11:46 <olsner> someone mentioned my nickname!?
18:12:52 <ais523> not that I can see, recently
18:13:03 <fizzie> ais523: I think his architecture has a single SDL-driven framebuffer-handler-thread (that reads a DOS textmode framebuffer-style memory block and updates the screen based on that), and it's supposed to have the "main app" run in a single thread with as little changes to it as possible. But this is just guesswork from what I've seen here. If (a big if) it's like that, you wouldn't want to have to change the "actual app" code for the pausing part at all, if you c
18:13:11 <ais523> perhaps you have a ping on something random that someone said?
18:13:37 <ais523> fizzie: yep, you just change the event loop to implement most of it; the tricky part is handling timer callbacks
18:14:07 <fizzie> olsner: There's AnMas.. sorry, Vorpal's reply to you, about 7 hours ago.
18:14:11 <ais523> (if timers are event-based, you can just hide those events and reset the timers to deliver them a bit later)
18:17:10 <fizzie> I think (more guesswork) the point here was that the existing application is not structured around an event loop, and it might not be completely trivial to retrofit it to have one. If you just stop the SDL side, all you've managed to do is to freeze display updates. Possibly it would also stop the existing app if it tries to do any sort of IO.
18:17:16 <zzo38> I am running event polling also in the video thread......
18:17:35 <zzo38> And when paused, the display should still continue blinking for cells with color >= 0x80
18:19:06 <zzo38> Perhaps I can make it check for pause in getkey() function
18:19:37 <ais523> zzo38: that makes more sense
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18:21:13 <fizzie> If you *want* (I wouldn't advocate this), you *could* run the "actual application" in a completely separate process, set up the framebuffer memory in a shared-memory block, and then have the pause key actually send SIGSTOP/SIGCONT to the main-app process.
18:21:40 <fizzie> ais523: What, not esoteric enough? :p
18:21:43 <ais523> at least that avoids deadlocks, I suppose
18:22:04 <zzo38> Perhaps I can also write my own replacement for SDL_Delay to be used in the main program, so that when the program tries to sleep it will check if paused, too....
18:22:06 <fizzie> I sort of like it, if the aim is to make the "main app" programming environment more DOS-like.
18:22:13 <zzo38> In addition to checking during getkey()
18:22:54 <zzo38> fizzie: No, I don't think I can do that think you wouldn't advocate, it is supposed to be cross-platform to all small-endian computers
18:23:19 <fizzie> Oh, okay; right, that would be rather POSIX-only.
18:24:37 <Sgeo> It.. seems to have depicted the wormhole on one side closing before they get through on the other side
18:25:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, Stargate Infinity
18:26:09 <Sgeo> SGI is pretty universally considered to be bad
18:27:58 <zzo38> Yes the aim is making the "main app" more DOS-like, so that it more closely emulates the DOS version of ZZT. (The DOS ZZT was written in Turbo Pascal. I am writing my program in C, so, it also involves sometimes emulating Pascal style strings)
18:28:43 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZT
18:30:30 <zzo38> (My program is called CZZT and is written in Enhanced CWEB. I do not have the original source-codes of ZZT (apparently nobody does), so I have to just make experiment and guess and think of how it was originally programmed to cause the strange things it did. My program CZZT is also a book.)
18:36:06 <zzo38> Some strange things in ZZT (all of which I plan to support, by reimplementing the program in a similar way such that they will work the same way), are: The position of the :RESTART label is always considered the second character of the program. #BECOME has the default color of the floor underneath the object. Black keys give you 256 gems.
18:39:40 <Vorpal> <fizzie> olsner: There's AnMas.. sorry, Vorpal's reply to you, about 7 hours ago. <-- ?
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18:39:57 <Vorpal> so now my POSIX cat in befunge almost works
18:40:11 <Vorpal> only thing left is proper file handling for catting files
18:40:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: olsner was asking who mentioned his name.
18:40:32 <Vorpal> it handles argument parsing like "cfunge ./posixcat.b98 foo - bar - quux" correctly
18:40:44 <Vorpal> and catting from stdin works
18:41:08 <Vorpal> well actually there is a bug if the first argument is of length 1
18:41:23 <Vorpal> I think the starting offset for scanning args must be miscalculated
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18:42:27 <Vorpal> by the way it uses both STRN and JSTR get :)
18:43:49 <cpressey> <Phantom_Hoover> To what extent can the BNF be considered equivalent to algebraic data?
18:43:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: a large one imo
18:44:10 <Vorpal> now that is strange... when I substract 1 from the counter I get off by one in the other direction
18:45:19 <Vorpal> obviously the answer should be between these two: http://sprunge.us/NMbV
18:45:30 <Vorpal> (the 8 is from the filename)
19:14:25 <zzo38> Are there open source pinball games for computer that support wii-remote, so that you can nudge at any direction and magnitude?
19:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, not as far as I know, but I once got FlightGear working with a Wii Remote.
19:16:56 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Some people complain that you cannot control nudge accurately enough for flipperless pinball games on computer
19:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, well, the CWiiD drivers expose the remote as a joystick device, so you could probably do something with that.
19:18:50 <zzo38> Visual Pinball could probably support it if there was a ActiveX object for wii remote, but that is not cross-platform (it doesn't even work on Wine).
19:22:10 <fizzie> I mentioned this before, but since it's sort-of related: if you stick a PS3 dualshock3 controller into a computer's USB port, it is recognized as a HID joystick with 28 axes, since most of the buttons are pressure-sensitive. You could use those (as well as the accelerometer axes) for pinball-nudge-control too. (I guess best would be to map the accelerometer to nudge, and buttons to flippers, though probably the controller is easier to accidentally bump than a p
19:23:43 <fizzie> A pinball-table-sized controller, with a monitor embedded in it: what a great product idea. I'm sure you could sell... not many of them.
19:27:49 <zzo38> For a flipperless game, the buttons can then do nothing (except possibly, start/pause)
19:29:52 <zzo38> I do not have a PS3. But it would be able to do these things, I guess! (I will never buy a PS3 until they put back two things they have removed: support for PS2 softwares, and OtherOS feature.)
19:30:41 <fizzie> I don't have a PS3 either: I bought the controller separately, for use with my phone. (In addition to USB, the controller also speaks Bluetooth, and the phone's keyboard is horrible for console-gamery.)
19:31:09 <Vorpal> success: http://sprunge.us/PBSX
19:31:27 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: The N900.
19:31:38 <zzo38> fizzie: O! OK! So, you can buy the controller separately
19:31:50 <Vorpal> unless someone knows of any other one I will claim this as the first cat(1) implemented in an esolang
19:32:02 <fizzie> zzo38: Yes, though I think there was some sort of warning labels about "only use this thing with a PS3" on it.
19:32:27 <zzo38> They really ought to fix those 2 features of the PS3, they will make it a lot more popular like that.
19:32:31 <Vorpal> ah found a tiny bug hm
19:33:05 <Vorpal> just a off by one in alignment of code
19:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> "If you use this controller on something other than a PS3 we own your soul"
19:33:57 <zzo38> Perhaps the warning label is for warranty purposes, or whatever else
19:34:20 <Vorpal> first POSIX cat http://sprunge.us/IEWP
19:34:54 <Vorpal> hm *puts in gpl header in that file*
19:35:01 <Vorpal> I think that is a first in befunge code too!
19:35:17 <zzo38> Do you think the PlayStation 3 would be more popular if they added back in those two features which have been removed since it first came out?
19:35:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it is under copyright I guess? Since that is the default
19:35:55 <Vorpal> all rights reserved in other words
19:36:42 <Vorpal> here is one with GPL in it: http://sprunge.us/EaJB
19:37:00 <Vorpal> copied from cfunge, forgot to fix year
19:37:17 <zzo38> How do I turn off the mouse wheel? I don't like it
19:37:54 <cpressey> zzo38: Just take it out of the cage!
19:38:54 <zzo38> No, I mean the mouse wheel on the middle mouse button
19:49:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, here http://sprunge.us/OEhC
19:49:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, you might be interested in that too
19:49:54 <Vorpal> somewhat messy, but that is alright for befunge-98 I think
19:50:17 <Vorpal> cpressey, anyway, do you know of any other POSIX compliant cat in befunge-98?
19:52:13 <Vorpal> cpressey, know of one in any other esolang?
19:52:26 <cpressey> Vorpal: Why are you celebrating my ignorance?
19:52:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, if you mean #!/bin/cat that won't work
19:53:01 <Vorpal> since it can't give command line args to cat
19:53:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, no I'm not, I'm celebrating the high probability of being first with it
19:53:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, since you are likely to know of things fungish
19:53:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, so what Cat?
19:54:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, that was after I did it however
19:54:03 <Vorpal> so I would still be first
19:54:19 <Vorpal> also if it is HQ9+ish then *shrug*
19:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, no, because the Cat cat has been on my system for ages.
19:54:41 <Vorpal> ais523, perhaps there is a cat(1) in INTERCAL?
19:55:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you said you just invented it
19:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, no, I just didn't realise that it was the Cat cat.
19:55:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, so describe it
19:55:39 <cpressey> Answer carefully, Phantom_Hoover_, Vorpal has a lot at stake here.
19:56:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, so post the interpreter then.
19:57:15 <Vorpal> you just constructed a new HQ9+ish language you know
19:58:30 <Vorpal> anyway, my posixcat.b98 is, to the extent of my knowledge, the first POSIX compliant cat(1) that has been _announced_ in this channel
19:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, I *think* #!/bin/sh\shift\exec cat $@EoF is sufficient.
19:58:49 <Vorpal> and sure, I could always claim I invented befunge93 before cpressey did but never announced it :P
19:59:04 <Vorpal> rather unlikely though, considering my age
19:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> Of course, it assumes that its first argument is its source file, and that the rest are the arguments to the program.
19:59:40 <Vorpal> is that supposed to make sense?
20:00:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well I can tell you that your implementation is flawed
20:00:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, spaces in filenames
20:01:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you must now recover the 5 PEDANTS from various places around Hyrule!
20:02:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, by "$@"
20:02:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you didn't get the reference?
20:02:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, that would be "$*" I believe
20:02:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well, still I beat you to it
20:03:12 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, do you know any previous POSIX cat(1) in an esolang?
20:03:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it hadn't been announced publically
20:03:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, which is what counts
20:03:50 <cpressey> Is there a word that combines "hilarious" with "makes me want to claw my eyes out"?
20:03:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, link to relevant log at tunes.orhg
20:04:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> Just because noöne *realised* that it was the Cat cat doesn't mean it wasn't/
20:04:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, why do you need it?
20:04:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, sure it does.
20:04:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you are just being silly you know :P
20:04:36 <cpressey> cpressey: I'm writing a letter to my aunt
20:04:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, and I'm 99% certain you wrote that after I wrote mine
20:04:47 <cpressey> Damn, now I'm talking to myself.
20:05:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, no, someone else wrote it years before you were born.
20:05:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, and [citation needed]
20:05:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, now you don't make sense at all
20:06:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, not all sh programs are cat, so that is not true
20:07:20 <Vorpal> now I have other things to do, just stop being silly, I'm not taking this trolling any more :P
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20:09:02 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Do you use JACK in your Rosegarden setup? If not, that may be where I'm going awry.
20:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, wait. The reference implementation is at http://pastebin.com/M3LticgA
20:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> To run a Cat program, type ./Cat <program-name> [<args>...]
20:10:28 <cpressey> Also, I wish Fluidsynth had a "test" command of some sort. I mean, it exposes a CLI and everything, and that seems an obvious feature.
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20:14:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, testing what?
20:15:05 <cpressey> Vorpal: To test fluidsynth's supposed ability to make sounds
20:15:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, um, but how? By generating a file with a test tune?
20:16:02 <Vorpal> like, the opening bars of some symphony by Mozart
20:16:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, it can do that? I thought it just generated to file
20:16:31 <Vorpal> it is the only way I used it
20:16:53 <cpressey> I don't KNOW if it can do that, that's why I want to TEST it.
20:17:12 <cpressey> I assume if it cares that I put "alsa" in the command line, it can TRY to make sound.
20:17:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, so get a soundfont and a midi file and test it with that?
20:17:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, presumably you have both handy?
20:18:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, without a soundfont fluidsynth won't do much at all
20:18:36 <Vorpal> Don't create a midi driver to read MIDI input events [default = yes]
20:18:41 <Vorpal> that's awfully confusing
20:18:54 <Vorpal> is that "default: yes we create one" or "default: yes we won't create one"
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20:39:23 <fizzie> Hah, perldoc GD: "$pngdata = $image->png([$compression_level]): This returns the image data in PNG format. -- The optional $compression_level argument controls the amount of compression to apply to the output PNG image. Values range from 0-9, where 0 means no compression (largest files, highest quality) and 9 means maximum compression (smallest files, worst quality)."
20:39:34 <fizzie> Yes, the well-known horrible loss of quality for using zlib compression level 9.
20:39:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, you should submit a bug report
20:40:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, also assuming it use zlib that should be "9 means somewhat less sucky compression"
20:40:29 <Vorpal> 7z's deflate beats it easily
20:40:39 <fizzie> I don't know what it binds against, probably libpng which I think goes to zlib.
20:40:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm talking about advpng and such
20:41:15 <fizzie> GD is not a very alive project, last newspost from 2007-11-28.
20:41:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, it could mean that it is finished
20:42:26 <fizzie> The libgd manual at web has fixed that particular issue, though it does overhype the compression level 9 a bit.
20:42:38 <fizzie> "A compression level of 0 means "no compression." A compression level of 1 means "compressed, but as quickly as possible." A compression level of 9 means "compressed as much as possible to produce the smallest possible file.""
20:42:46 <fizzie> That would be quite a breakthrough.
20:43:09 <fizzie> Though I guess it's sensible to interpret it in the "as well as the thing doing the compression can, anyway" sense.
20:44:00 <fizzie> http://search.cpan.org/dist/GD/GD.pm has the "9 == worst quality" text, and it's I guess the latest Perl GD module.
20:45:11 <fizzie> 15 open bugs, though, and some 5 years old, so...
20:45:47 <fizzie> Maybe I should be using something else. I don't think this can do less-than-256-colors PNG files anyway, though I guess it just might.
20:47:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, 4 bit grayscale is fun
20:47:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I run into lots of apps that don't handle that properly
20:48:37 <fizzie> libgd itself has internal design around 8-bit palettes (there's truecolor support, but it's really horribly retrofitted on it), but I guess it's possible it also keeps a count of allocated colors and dumps out smaller-palette .pngs when possible. I'm just not very hopeful.
20:52:53 <fizzie> Ooh, it does indeed do a 1-bit colormap if you $img->colorAllocate() only two colors. It's not *completely* stupef that way.
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20:54:34 <Gregor-W> cpressey: My Rosegarden has no audio-output capability.
20:54:57 <Gregor-W> RE-CAPTCHA of the moment: (saddiq), sturock
20:55:16 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, is midi not audio?
20:55:30 <Gregor-W> MIDI is not audio until it's rendered.
20:55:35 <Gregor-W> And Rosegarden doesn't render it.
20:55:41 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, also mine has wave form audio output as well, through the use of jack.
20:55:46 <Vorpal> some of those plugins uses it
20:55:55 <Vorpal> and a PITA to get working
20:56:00 <Gregor-W> Oh, mine is compiled to be capable of it.
20:56:05 <Gregor-W> I just ignore it and don't care if it works.
20:56:10 <Gregor-W> I don't need Rosegarden to have audio output.
20:56:13 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, right, I had it working at one point
20:56:17 <Vorpal> no clue if it still works
20:56:26 <Gregor-W> And it's a PITA because syncing rendered MIDI with audio is basically impossible.
20:57:00 <Gregor-W> What they should do instead is have a way to render MIDI into a buffer, then they could have absolute control of when they output stuff, but instead they assume your MIDI device will render in its own sweet time *shrugs*
20:58:24 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, well it will. Since it is hardware midi
20:58:39 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, there might be a tiny desync
20:58:44 <Gregor-W> Obviously this technique depends on the nature of your device :P
20:58:57 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, SB Live 5.1, a consumer level card
20:59:07 <Vorpal> surely a pro audio card could then
20:59:23 <Gregor-W> If your device is fluidsynth, it could not.
21:00:54 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, well I use that to render the final version of the midi track
21:01:01 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, not for playback while editing
21:01:19 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, I don't really use the waveform audio stuff
21:02:03 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, isn't there a way to do like: fluidsynth --soundfont foo.sf2 bar.midi -o quux.wav
21:02:07 <Vorpal> I can't find the options for it
21:02:14 <Vorpal> I know I done something like that before
21:02:25 <Gregor-W> Yeah, but it's hyper-unreliable:
21:02:36 <Gregor-W> fluidsynth -F whatever.wav bleh.sf2 blat.mid
21:02:43 <Gregor-W> It just tends to fail in weird and obscure ways.
21:02:44 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, it should be the most reliable way to do it
21:02:56 <Vorpal> no need to depend on alsa keeping up and so on
21:03:08 <Gregor-W> But this is fluidsynth we're talking about.
21:03:14 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, is it that bad?
21:03:48 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Well, consarn it. It's reputed to be possible for Soundgarden to send MIDI events to Fluidsynth, and have Fluidsynth render them in "real"time, though? Because I do not own a MIDI device. Anymore.
21:04:18 <Gregor-W> cpressey: If you just want that, then you don't need Rosegarden's audio support at all. That's the simplest setup, and it's what I use.
21:04:27 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Fluidsynth will happily masquerade as a MIDI device.
21:04:43 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: http://codu.org/projects/zee/musichg/index.cgi/file/tip/fsmid2wav.sh <-- here is my script to do what you want (plus a bit that you don't want)
21:09:00 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: In fact, that script seems to include a decent list of all the ways that fluidsynth is broken.
21:10:59 <cpressey> Why fluidsynth and not timidity?
21:11:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, Soundgarden?
21:11:26 <Vorpal> do you mean Rosegarden?
21:11:50 <cpressey> If the point is just to have a program that masquerades as a MIDI device and renders it...
21:12:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, timidity is broken in my experience
21:12:20 <Vorpal> that was a while ago though
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21:12:49 <cpressey> So... Fluidsynth is broken, just less so? I still wanna know why open-source and Linux music software is so awful.
21:12:51 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Because timidity is astoundingly bad.
21:13:00 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Timidity isn't broken, it just sounds awful.
21:13:09 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Fluidsynth is horribly broken, but sounds spectacular.
21:13:34 <pikhq> cpressey: Actually, there's a lot of good Linux music software. Just not much when it comes to synthing.
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21:15:22 <Gregor-W> OK, Waverly Films' new bit "Doctors with Guns" is pretty much awesome :P
21:21:51 <cpressey> Well, Csound looks pretty cool I guess, but not really something suited for the activity of "composing"
21:24:36 <Vorpal> <Gregor-W> Vorpal: http://codu.org/projects/zee/musichg/index.cgi/file/tip/fsmid2wav.sh <-- here is my script to do what you want (plus a bit that you don't want) <-- did you report those bugs?
21:25:17 <Vorpal> and also, that might result in stutter on my system
21:25:22 <Vorpal> unlike -F presumably would
21:29:58 <Sgeo> Ok, "Pain" was a fun episode
21:30:28 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: The functional language "Clean" explicitly passes around a value representing the outside world (for I/O) iirc.
21:32:24 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: Uhhh, that most certainly should not result in stutter ...
21:32:31 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: fluidsynth's output is to file.
21:32:47 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: The only possible cause of stutter would be if aplaymidi couldn't provide MIDI data fast enough, but that's frankly absurd.
21:36:02 <cpressey> Wait, most modern sound cards do really crappy midi rendering internally, don't they?
21:36:45 <Gregor-W> Because they assume you'll do the MIDI in software :P
21:37:58 <cpressey> Hm... ok... but if it does, alsa will provide it as a MIDI port, right? heh. one can only hope
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21:38:34 <Gregor-W> fluidsynth -l -a alsa whatever.sf2 <-- this is all the partay you need.
21:41:05 <cpressey> Gregor-W: What should I expect if I run that? I mean, fluidsynth just sits there, no input no output on terminal, sucking back midi events and spewing out waveforms?
21:41:39 <cpressey> Because when I tried it with JACK, it gave me its own command-line interface.
21:41:46 <cpressey> Which was a little weird, frankly.
21:42:08 <cpressey> I was not expecting to have to type things into a "fluidsynth prompt".
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21:44:48 <Gregor-W> cpressey: It has its own command line interface, but there's nothing you have to do there unless you want to adjust its settings.
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21:45:04 <Gregor-W> cpressey: I often find myself using the "gain 1" command there, but otherwise not using it. Oh, and the "quit" command :P
21:50:57 <Gregor-W> I suspect that fluidsynth was not originally written with the notion of it being a daemon in mind.
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21:51:51 <Gregor-W> Like I said, fluidsynth is a terrible, terrible program ... which unfortunately is also an awesome, awesome program.
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22:01:50 <cpressey> "The Pragmatic Programmer" -- anyone here read it? Thoughts?
22:02:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> I haven't read it, but I can give an ignorant and bigoted opinion if you like.
22:03:08 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: I certainly won't stop you.
22:03:08 -!- relet has joined.
22:04:42 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: I would like to hear your ignorant and bigoted opinion.
22:07:47 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:08:37 <Gregor-W> Depends on your definitions of "OTHER", "PEOPLE" and "your"
22:11:02 <oerjan> as well as "use", "code" and "do"
22:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> Gregor-W, the what do you do? I hope it doesn't involve APPLICATIONS.
22:13:06 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:14:38 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:23:58 <cpressey> Apparently it recommends learning a new language every year.
22:24:10 <Sgeo> Ok, this is awesome
22:29:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:32:30 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: It involves RESEARCH.
22:32:36 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: And WRITING PAPER(S).
22:32:54 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: Research THE WEBERNETS
22:33:59 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/pldi275-richards.pdf <-- not entirely unlike this one!
22:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> "WEBERNETS VERY STUPID. ME NOT BOTHER RESEARCHING AND INSTEAD HANG OUT ON #ESOTERIC."
22:34:57 <oerjan> WRITING PAPER is trivial. i write on paper nearly everyday (i use to solve the sudoku in the newspaper)
22:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, you do Sudoku? I would have thought you would be busy MATHEMATICING.
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22:37:07 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: it is quite unalterable by heat, it's the humidity. elric had heard such sounds echoing from his horns and tail.
22:37:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:37:26 <oerjan> yes the humidity is quite awful recently
22:37:26 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
22:37:35 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: that's impossible but cool,btw his style reminds me of my friends think she just wants to say
22:37:56 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: loved it!!!!!!
22:37:58 <Sgeo> fungot, I think we should declare war on B
22:37:58 <fungot> Sgeo: what if she stays like this!!!!
22:38:10 <Sgeo> Yes, B is a she, fungot
22:38:11 <fungot> Sgeo: what's the song rocks!! i think this one. at the grocery. you managed to contradict yourself there big time, and if it is sorta in the plane
22:41:23 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: thanks for reviewing that. go die beste ..das lied is hamma cool... i was about to sing like me...but he's a christian! who goes to yourcharity!
22:43:39 <Vorpal> <Gregor-W> Vorpal: The only possible cause of stutter would be if aplaymidi couldn't provide MIDI data fast enough, but that's frankly absurd. <-- alsa could cause it
22:43:45 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, single core and so on
22:44:08 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, besides, I'm sure it would stutter on a 386 if you tried that!
22:49:06 -!- alise has joined.
22:49:16 <alise> The Worm Who Had a Pet Worm
22:52:49 <alise> I went back in time. SUDDENLY
22:55:05 <Sgeo> alise, we have learned B's gender
22:55:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Nomic.
22:55:20 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> fungot, I think we should declare war on B
22:55:20 <Sgeo> <fungot> Sgeo: what if she stays like this!!!!
22:55:20 <fungot> Sgeo: this could have been closed quite a vivid imagination, you are a couple of folks agreeing with me. but let me guess: you don't even get me wrong, ur stil idiots. i know
22:55:21 <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
22:55:35 <alise> `addquote <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
22:55:35 <fungot> alise: saw this last night, i have ever seen!.....i myself am a hillary clinton supporter btw.
22:55:39 <alise> Best version of the Bible ever.
22:55:50 <HackEgo> 215|<fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
22:58:23 <cpressey> alise have you read the pragmatic programmer
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22:59:59 <alise> cpressey: I know of it; I have no wish to read it.
23:00:01 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: crap huggy fuzzy book for the multitudes of professional programmers who can't actually think
23:00:25 <alise> Dave Thomas I find to be one of the more irritating members of the Rubysphere. (God, I just coined that, and feel DIRTY.)
23:00:28 <cpressey> Wondering if anyone knew exactly how crap, is all.
23:00:40 <alise> ...the Pragmatic Programmers print some good books tohugh, I think
23:01:10 <alise> I, uh, sort of bought a hefty Rails volume when I was still doing web stuff, still doing Ruby, and they were the only docs available outside of an API reference.
23:01:19 <alise> In my defence, everyone else was doing it too. Just like heroin.
23:01:23 <alise> Except less blissful.
23:01:26 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes, it looks like. It was highly recommended by two people here who I thought were smarter than that.
23:01:53 <alise> Oh, at work or in here?
23:02:05 <alise> cpressey: I gather that it's not actually a terrible book.
23:02:16 <cpressey> Well not physically *here*... argh
23:02:17 <alise> Like, it's certainly not pretentious enough for us, but it's not a "LOL PROGRAMMING IS EASY!" type thing.
23:02:33 <alise> cpressey: I suppose it's similar to Code Complete -- which I also haven't read.
23:02:53 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pragmatic_Programmer
23:02:56 <alise> From that, it actually seems awful.
23:03:09 <cpressey> I tried reading Code Complete. My operating theory is that, like CC, PP is probably an OK book for people whose minds work like that, but it would not help me.
23:03:35 <alise> What these books teach me is that I probably don't want to program underneath someone else for a living.
23:03:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: We're not even proper academia! That's the great thing.
23:04:13 <alise> We just sit here, dismissing questions as too easy and waffling on about nothing.
23:04:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: you're making me want to create an esolang inspired by that syntax
23:04:47 <alise> object → receiver, or something
23:04:50 <cpressey> The weird thing is how heavily "software engineering" concentrates on personality and process -- as if the "writing software that works" part just took care of itself.
23:05:25 <alise> cpressey: But, dude, with Agile there's so little time left to actually write code that it's impossible to screw up any one component; that'd be like screwing up "Hello, world!"
23:05:39 <alise> And then AGILE PROCESS ensures that all the pieces stick together! YAY!
23:06:01 <cpressey> Sorry, what was that? I was busy switching context.
23:06:38 <cpressey> I keep forgetting it's all a lost cause ;)
23:08:37 <alise> Wow, Dave Thomas actually studied computer science. I cannae believe it.
23:08:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
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23:09:42 <alise> cpressey: Can you attempt to explain to me what the hell distinguishes SCRUM! from AGILE!?
23:09:56 <alise> I know it may cause permanent brain damage if you try and think about this stuff, but I'm truly curious.
23:10:21 <alise> Hmm, is it that Scrum is-a-concrete-instance-of-the-abstract-classifier Agile?
23:10:30 <cpressey> alise: Urk. Well, as far as *I* have ever been able to tell, Scrum is a kind of Agile.
23:11:02 <Gregor-W> "Agile" is a descriptive adjective, used specifically to describe a family of techniques. Scrum is a technique.
23:11:09 <alise> IN MY DAY, people said "Agile" and meant a specific process involving passive-aggressivity, post-it notes and orgies^Wgroup hugs^Wsessions
23:11:50 <cpressey> I believe "Agile" to be intentionally vaguely defined so that organizations can say "Why yes, we do Agile here!"
23:12:12 <cpressey> And just never mind about XP. Just never mind.
23:12:45 <alise> cpressey: It's funny, because the C2 wiki -- as well as, you know, being the first -- actually has some of the most level-headed stuff about programming on the web.
23:12:51 <alise> But it's so grounded in XP culture that I have no idea how.
23:14:47 <cpressey> Well, I haven't checked recently, but last I did, XP seemed virtually dead.
23:15:10 <alise> How can an /idea/ die?
23:16:06 <cpressey> I mean in the sense that no one seems to describe themselves as using it.
23:16:40 <Gregor-W> I use scrumstreme agilegramming
23:17:20 <cpressey> When I saw it, XP contained the commandment "If XP is broken, fix it". This made XP the Wiki of development methodologies. I think it ended up being diluted into meaninglessness.
23:17:35 <cpressey> But, I'm guessing here. I don't talk very long to anyone who seems too into this sort of thing.
23:17:36 <Sgeo> What's wrong with XP?
23:19:04 <cpressey> Sgeo: Since XP could be anything at this point (see above), I can't say.
23:19:21 <alise> People have turned agile from a silly little game to boost morale and keep focused into a cult.
23:19:27 <alise> It's almost comedic. Almost.
23:19:40 <Sgeo> I thought XP was just writing tests first, or am I mistaken?
23:19:41 <alise> Extreme programming should be more like extreme ironing.
23:19:47 <alise> COMPILING ON THE TOP OF A CLIFF
23:19:54 <alise> WRITING AN OPERATING SYSTEM WHILE BUNGEE JUMPING
23:20:04 <alise> Sgeo: No, that's TDD. Or BDD, depending on your God.
23:20:26 <cpressey> BDD = TDD where I pretend my tests are written in English
23:21:58 <cpressey> And I approve of TDD, more or less, btw.
23:22:14 <cpressey> I don't always do it myself, but sometimes.
23:22:49 <alise> I tried to like TDD, but it turns out that I'm Sick of This Shit and just want to write some fucking code, not spend ages explaining to a computer how my code should work and then writing it.
23:23:00 <alise> I explain to it how the code should work once already, by writing it.
23:23:10 <alise> Besides, test cases are always so rudimentary, arbitrary and stupid...
23:23:38 <cpressey> Proof-Driven Development would be better.
23:24:05 <alise> Yes, but ... I've become disillusioned a bit with that.
23:24:49 <cpressey> The main reason I'm OK with TDD is because tests are so much easier to write near the beginning, when the requirements are, uh, not history yet.
23:24:49 <Sgeo> Should I learn some design patterns?
23:25:18 <cpressey> After code has been out in the wild for a while... shit, good luck knowing how it's "supposed" to be behave.
23:25:25 <Sgeo> alise, explanation?
23:25:27 <alise> Sgeo: Just no. And don't ask why.
23:25:33 <Sgeo> I'm asking why
23:25:37 <alise> cpressey: You tell him why.
23:26:22 <cpressey> Sgeo: Actually you should. But you should learn them without assistance of any books, examples, other people, or other people's code.
23:26:36 <cpressey> No instructional videos either. Dammit!
23:26:51 <alise> In case Sgeo can't tell, cpressey is telling Sgeo to learn them simply by writing code that uses them, which Sgeo almost certainly does already.
23:27:00 <alise> alise is a completely impartial observer with no sense of identity.
23:29:00 <cpressey> The classic "gang of four" book on design patterns is not bad, actually, but ...
23:29:35 <Sgeo> I just want to be sure that I'm not a code monkey, and if I am, fix it
23:29:42 <cpressey> 1. Originators come up with concept 2. Originators use concept 3. Concept is good 4. Concept is published 5. People start using concept "in the large" 6. Concept is now crap
23:30:25 <cpressey> Behold the power of dumbing down.
23:30:41 <cpressey> Sgeo: Write proofs. Even simple ones. It's the best cure I know of.
23:30:53 <cpressey> Not proofs of programs, necessarily. Just proofs.
23:31:02 <cheater99> so, inception is one of the better movies
23:31:13 <Sgeo> Was about to say, I have no idea how proofs of programs work
23:31:34 <cheater99> i asked this question a few times here
23:31:55 <alise> <Sgeo> I just want to be sure that I'm not a code monkey, and if I am, fix it
23:32:00 <alise> learning "design patterns" will make you one
23:32:18 <alise> cheater99: because it's not that simple
23:32:52 <alise> like a random computer illiterate on the street asking you to explain the halting problem, except for program proving we don't have the standard stock answers that make it easy.
23:33:06 <alise> and i'm sure that computer illiterate may be a very successful doctor or whatever, which isn't simple
23:33:07 <cheater99> i followed the whole storyline of inception without getting lost
23:33:11 <alise> but that doesn't make it any easier.
23:33:13 <alise> cheater99: yes it is
23:33:16 <alise> it's just nesting, big whoop
23:33:23 <Sgeo> I haven't seen Inception yet
23:33:38 <alise> Sgeo: it's like the matrix but with more layers of nesting
23:33:43 <cpressey> OK, I can only say one more thing on the subject then I have to leave...
23:33:44 <alise> and leonardo dicaprio
23:34:10 <alise> cheater99: ok, so you're creating an imagined Average Person who doesn't grok inception so that you can claim you achieved something by grokking inception
23:35:13 <cheater99> you guessed, i am projecting my erotic desire.
23:35:21 <cheater99> so what about those program proofs?
23:35:21 <cpressey> OK, well I forgot what the question was.
23:37:06 <Sgeo> Which costs more, replacement coords for a headset with replacable coords, or very cheap headsets
23:37:18 <Sgeo> Replace headsets for headphones if headset implies a microphone
23:37:20 <cpressey> Proving properties of programs is not really different from proving properties of the integers. It's just that the integers have a simpler structure. There are an infinite number of possible runs through a program; there are an infinite number of integers. You find a way to link the property you want to prove, to the properties that you already know, by going back to the definitions.
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23:41:32 <alise> cpressey's explanation was crap there, btw.
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23:50:28 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Bucket, Stargate Universe
23:50:29 <Sgeo> <Bucket> Stargate Voyager?
23:50:53 <alise> Sgeo: Clearly, someone has a low opinion of the series.
23:51:10 <Sgeo> Or they're pointing out the obvious similarity
23:51:26 <alise> Yeah, uh, newsflash: Voyager is universally hated by EVERYONE but you.
23:51:33 <alise> Even the ACTORS hated Voyager.
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23:51:59 <Sgeo> Not necessarily all of them
23:52:18 <Sgeo> Just 2 of them, I think
23:52:18 <alise> Mulgrew and Beltran did, and that's just the ones that have spoken out.
23:52:26 <alise> A lot of the writers hate a lot of the work they did..
23:52:59 <alise> The series's "critical acclaim" is a misnomer; it's more "hysterical, sarcastic laughter", and the fan opinion is too horrific to be put into words.
23:53:17 <alise> If someone compared a series to Voyager, especialy a series that has been met with some disdain, it is a deliberate insult.
23:53:53 <cheater99> who are mulgrew and beltran again?
23:54:03 <Sgeo> Mulgrew is the actress for Janeway
23:54:08 <alise> cheater99: Janeway and Chakotay.
23:54:20 <alise> cheater99: Chakotay's extremely wooden acting was due to Beltran not giving a shit.
23:54:23 <cheater99> how would you like to be playing an old woman
23:54:44 <alise> Not giving a single shit at all.
23:55:04 <cheater99> <cheater99> i love fucking recruiters
23:55:04 <cheater99> <cheater99> 09:14 (15 hours ago) Hi XXX,
23:55:04 <cheater99> <cheater99> I hope you have had a good day, unfortunately mine is not nearly over!
23:55:04 <cheater99> <cheater99> yeah, i very well hope your day isn't over at 9 am you worthless bitch
23:55:17 <alise> "i love fucking recruiters"
23:55:26 <cheater99> fucking recruiters are loved by me.
23:55:38 <alise> Or, you enjoy congress of a certain nature with recruiters.
23:55:56 <Sgeo> alise, that's a Sgeo-joke!
23:56:07 <Sgeo> More evidence that you're turning into me!
23:56:25 <alise> Sgeo: You turn things that don't directly say "fucking", "sex", "intercourse" or "snu-snu" into really strained sexual references.
23:56:29 <alise> That is totally not the same thing.
23:56:51 <Sgeo> alise, I did that, what, once or twice on the same day?
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23:57:26 <alise> cheater99 is like the terrible replacement for augur after augur left at the end of a season, returning only for a few later cameos
23:57:31 <alise> and i totally started writing that before augur came in. no joke