00:00:07 <augur> http://videolectures.net/mlcs07_higuera_giv/
00:00:15 <augur> thus guy has a very bizarre mix of accents
00:00:32 <augur> half english of some sort, with touches of french
00:01:49 <alise> cheater99: define hugh.
00:02:15 <cheater99> out of place, young, inexperienced, and nobody takes him seriously
00:03:40 <alise> if anyone's out of place in this channel it's you, there are a few younger than me, either stupidly incorrect or irrelevant depending on what you think i'm inexperienced in
00:03:48 <alise> and i have fairly good empirical evidence against the last one.
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00:09:56 <zzo38> They keep moving the spider!
00:14:33 <cheater99> alise: i'm glad i riled you up, there was no other point to saying that sweetie
00:16:34 <alise> just vaguely amused
00:17:11 <alise> cheater99 had a rather pathetic go at insulting me
00:17:37 <zzo38> Are you still insulted? Did I insult you too?
00:17:46 <cheater99> if it was so pathetic, why did you take the time to write such a long retort?
00:17:48 <alise> I don't believe you said anything insulting ...
00:17:58 <alise> cheater99: Uhh, I type pretty fast, and I have nothing better to do.
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00:18:15 <cheater99> nothing better to do than to answer pathetic insults, huh?
00:18:32 <alise> Yep. If I had something better to do, I wouldn't be blabbing on IRC.
00:18:38 <alise> Or responding to these questions about questions.
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00:21:16 * cheater99 watches alise start spinning a spinner to check what question she's on
00:21:35 <alise> You know, you don't exactly seem like you have anything better to do, either.
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00:25:17 <alise> pikhq: Have you seen "Star Trek New Voyages: Phase II"? It's a bit /too/ faithful to TOS; copying even its production values!
00:25:24 <alise> Except this time the film is good enough to see the cheese.
00:25:55 <cheater99> i'm reading memory alpha on the EMH
00:26:17 <alise> The Doc was the only good character on Voyager.
00:26:33 <alise> And he had to deal with a ship full of fools.
00:27:13 <alise> Wowwwwww, the cheese is just so great.
00:27:20 <alise> (I'm watching "World Enough and Time".)
00:27:28 <alise> I may have to stop soon.
00:28:15 <CakeProphet> I just woke up from a meth-induced binge sleep that lasted for a week
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00:28:36 <alise> I think that's generally a pretty good sign that you should lay off the god damned meth.
00:29:25 <CakeProphet> I can have sex for hours on meth, while programming in assembly.
00:29:37 <CakeProphet> ...but it's mainly the assembly code that turns me on.
00:29:52 <alise> I'm not even going to /start/ trying to reason.
00:30:04 <augur> alise: omg that guy
00:30:11 <augur> hes so french at times
00:30:15 <augur> but then at times hes so english
00:30:25 <augur> "but you know jolly well that its not"
00:30:36 <alise> Bonjour! Tally ho!
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00:31:06 <augur> he says "here" as "hyeaahh"
00:31:38 <alise> wow, this is the worst Spock ever
00:31:43 <alise> just ... the worst
00:32:11 <alise> augur: "Star Trek New Voyages: Phase II"
00:32:13 <coppro> alise: there are many fanfics out there that wish to disagree
00:32:20 <alise> fan-created sequel to The Original Series
00:32:25 <alise> very high production values for a fan creation
00:32:30 <alise> George Takei and people have been in it
00:32:42 <alise> The Trouble with Tribbles writer is doing too
00:32:45 <alise> but despite all of this
00:32:49 <alise> it's so hilariously, hilariously bad
00:32:53 <augur> its still horrible yeah
00:33:03 <CakeProphet> has everyone attempted to watch Plan 9 from Outer Space?
00:33:09 <alise> man apparently kirk's main personality feature is wrinkling his face every two words
00:33:16 <CakeProphet> I tried... but there was too much bad and not enough hilarity.
00:33:23 <alise> it really looks like some kids pretending to be in star trek
00:33:46 <alise> "a tangle of MULTIPLE DIMENSIONS".
00:34:07 <alise> multi-coloured glitter
00:34:10 <alise> I am absolutely not joking
00:34:54 <alise> i have to take a screenshot
00:34:58 <alise> how can you take a screenshot with mplayer/Xv?
00:35:16 <alise> if the whole window is visible
00:35:57 <alise> i repeat, lay off the meth
00:36:01 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QspuCt1FM9M
00:36:03 <augur> i dont know what to make of this
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00:36:30 <alise> augur: the start is awesome ambient
00:36:47 <augur> alise: the whole thing is some awesome ambient
00:36:53 <alise> coppro: http://imgur.com/uoU1V.png
00:37:10 <alise> Hikaru Sulu, wearing his anti-antimatter glitter suit.
00:37:23 <alise> augur: this is amazing
00:37:29 <alise> augur: someone do his whole album like this
00:37:30 <augur> alise: I KNOW RIGHT?
00:37:40 <alise> "Holy crap. Is this Godspeed You! Black Emperor?" --comments
00:37:45 <augur> who knew that justin bieber was actually a GOOD musical artist!
00:38:01 <alise> the record company just forced him to speed it up
00:38:03 <alise> you know, for the kids
00:38:06 <coppro> god dammit I hate scribd
00:38:23 <alise> augur: get rid of his name and the album title, remove his facial features, and blur it to hell
00:38:27 <alise> there's his original, intended album cover
00:39:37 <alise> i seriously want to save this
00:40:13 <CakeProphet> this is supposed to be a HAPPY song and not a song you'd play at someone's funeral!!! my opinion! I really do not like it at all. Doesn't even sound like the original at all. Boo ya.
00:40:28 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
00:40:36 <CakeProphet> fungot, what do you think about this comment?
00:40:36 <fungot> CakeProphet: 5125l: oh shut up? and mark wahlberg second reason filmed in canada and that avril lavigne rockssssss a friend came by around 3:30 am and pic was frozen right on this
00:43:46 <augur> alise: im tempted now to take some classic ambient music and speed it up
00:43:48 <augur> to see what it sounds like
00:44:25 <augur> how ridiculous if Brian Eno was actually just ripping off Jimi Hendrix
00:45:03 <alise> omg, that is exactly what this sounds like that i couldn't put my finger on
00:45:56 <CakeProphet> so I found something that FIXES Haskell records. :)
00:46:06 <alise> CakeProphet: making them 800% slower?
00:46:24 <Gregor-W> Oh, is that not what that stands for?
00:46:30 <augur> alise: im not sure tho if this is actually just justin bieber
00:46:30 <alise> augur: i will now attempt to listen to the original song by "Justin" "Bieber"
00:46:44 <augur> i tried listening to a version on youtube and it sounded a bit different
00:46:55 <augur> so im going to record this version and then speed it up
00:46:56 <alise> augur: that is what slowing things down generally does.
00:47:04 <alise> talk about loss of fidelity
00:48:04 <CakeProphet> so now the act of setting a record field can be abstracted...
00:49:08 <augur> thats who that french guy sounds like
00:49:47 <CakeProphet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQAwnusJVQ
00:49:53 <CakeProphet> this song looks like a good candidate for speed-up
00:50:03 <alise> augur: i can't read david mitchell's articles, because they get read in his voice
00:50:06 <CakeProphet> the piano melody will probably sound like experimental jazz or something.
00:50:12 <Sgeo> Well, just finished the first season of SGU
00:50:14 <alise> the guardian need to put authorship credits st the /bottom/
00:50:55 <alise> Eno sort of already does that time-fucking anyway.
00:51:53 <alise> Talking Heads' "Remain in Light", produced by Eno, has all its music sped up quite a bit (but not the vocals).
00:52:19 <alise> Although that's not quite 800%. :P
00:57:02 <augur> http://www.mediafire.com/?aenvebe86u0d7ha
00:58:46 <alise> Is it ... any less repetitive?
00:59:18 <augur> look, i didnt say justin bieber wasnt philip glass, ok
00:59:58 <alise> "Russian village bought by torrent site torrentreactor.net for $150,000 and renamed after it
00:59:58 <alise> Torrentreactor.net is one of the few companies that has decided to leave a permanent mark on the world map and rename a settlement after itself. The one with real houses and live inhabitants. A small russian village Gar was chosen to be renamed. It is located not far away from Seversk nuclear reactor (Russia, Tomsk region). As opposed to Google town that became the Texas «capital» for a limited period of time Torrentreactor village will retain its name f
00:59:58 <alise> orever. The price of $150,000 was announced for such «live billboard»."
01:02:56 <augur> youve already got a town in australia named after /you/
01:03:44 <alise> technically, that's Alice.
01:05:43 <augur> it really its justin bieber
01:06:00 <alise> augur: now i have a task for you
01:06:02 <alise> download his entire album
01:06:06 <alise> do the same transformation to every track
01:06:13 <alise> now, find a few tracks that go together
01:06:18 <augur> first im speeding up brian eno
01:06:21 <alise> repeat until the whole album is mixed into a few half-hour long tracks
01:06:29 <alise> say a nice three-track, 90 minute mix
01:06:59 <alise> so that's ~3 songs from his album per mix, you can do that
01:07:02 <alise> augur: because it's too bland on its own, see
01:07:05 <alise> the interlocking will be beautiful
01:07:10 <augur> the expansion of the song did horrendous stuff to Bieber's music
01:07:19 <alise> it already is horrendous
01:07:46 <alise> augur: when you have those three tracks, just note their lengths, cat them together, add loooong crossfades between them, split at the same time
01:07:53 <alise> tada, Justin Bieber: Music of Form
01:07:57 <augur> the lengthening process (and then the subsequent shortening) destroyed a lot of the quality of the instruments
01:08:06 <alise> augur: what quality :P
01:08:13 <alise> Justin Bieber - Formative Music
01:08:16 <augur> well, the instruments sound like instruments :P
01:08:54 <alise> also make all the titles somehow based on mutations of his song titles
01:09:27 <alise> Cycle 1, including Usmil's Baby and Overbored
01:09:32 <alise> you're making me look up justin bieber song titles
01:12:24 <augur> alise: im listening to some Aphex Twin sped up
01:12:31 <augur> sounds almost proper
01:13:08 <alise> augur: "Richard D. James Album" is pretty damn hyper already. :P
01:13:11 <augur> blue calx at 400% speed is almost playful
01:13:27 <alise> But I assume you mean his more ... ambient work.
01:13:53 <alise> RDJA is surprisingly /catchy/.
01:18:36 <alise> torrents are so crap :|
01:19:08 <augur> alise: im listening to a song called San Tommaso Eqed by Der Spyra
01:19:28 <augur> but sped up it sounds like it could have been a movie-classical
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01:24:58 <alise> I need a Usenet link.
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01:33:25 <pikhq> Six gigs of *MP3s*... Good god that's a large torrent.
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01:38:31 <zeotrope> augur: have you heard the analord bonus tracks?
01:38:34 <alise> Meanwhile I can't even find a decent, non-remastered FLAC rip of "Remain in Light" (mentioning things gives me this urge to acquire them).
01:38:40 <alise> That is, the only one I can find has zero seeders and is hence useless.
01:38:49 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, it's annoying, but. 77 freaking albums in a torrent.
01:39:02 <augur> zeotrope: no. does that involve buttsex
01:39:10 <alise> zeotrope: Is the rest of Analord better than Chosen Lords?
01:39:15 <alise> Chosen Lords is a bit crap.
01:39:46 <alise> It was good the first time.
01:39:51 <alise> After that... bleh.
01:40:57 <zeotrope> it had only 6 songs, the analord collection is quite large
01:41:33 <augur> alise: apparently if you dont slow justin bieber down much (maybe a litte) but lower his pitch drastically, you get johnny cash
01:41:44 <alise> augur: except, shit johnny cash
01:41:53 <augur> i think cash was shit anyway
01:42:09 <alise> his cover of Hurt was great :P
01:42:29 <alise> zeotrope: my least favourite aphex twin album though is ...I Care Because You Do
01:42:35 <pikhq> augur: Apparently, if you shoot Justin Bieber and put on a Daft Punk album you get good music.
01:42:45 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZmkFmW5LXY
01:42:46 <alise> pikhq: Unless it's Human After All.
01:42:48 <alise> Then you get Human After All.
01:42:56 <pikhq> alise: Okay, yes, fair point.
01:43:04 <alise> Also, http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/daftpunk/aroundtheworld.html
01:43:15 <alise> Gregor-W: THAT TOO
01:43:22 <pikhq> alise: Such a fucking weird song.
01:43:27 <pikhq> alise: Also, the music video is weirder.
01:43:30 <alise> pikhq: AROUND THE WORLD AROUND THE WORLD
01:43:42 <augur> alise: that last link has now turned me on to george michael
01:43:47 <augur> who i would've never thought could be good
01:43:52 <alise> Okay, I do actually like parts of Human After All.
01:43:53 <pikhq> Fucking Daft Punk, thinking that techno exempts them from lyrics.
01:43:57 <alise> "The Prime Time of Your Life" is pretty good.
01:44:25 <alise> the genres we've covered in the past hours is imrpressive
01:44:41 <alise> augur: that muse/stefani thing is totally true, btw
01:44:43 <alise> and very disturbing
01:45:08 <pikhq> alise: About the only thing that's common with geek musical tastes is not limiting themselves to the current mainstream of music.
01:45:29 <augur> listening now alise
01:45:44 * Gregor-W <3 his restrictive musical palate.
01:46:04 <augur> alise: its kinda true yeah
01:46:08 <pikhq> Gregor-W: You merely restrict yourself to forms of music not derived from folk music traditions.
01:47:07 <alise> pikhq: http://w00tstock.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/05g-400x300.jpg
01:47:14 <alise> "Shut up Wesley!", says Wesley.
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01:47:33 <pikhq> Gregor-W: You also end up limiting yourself from the sheer agony that is constructed-pop music.
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01:47:41 <alise> you're sitting on my screen
01:47:43 <alise> whacking into my hand
01:47:52 <augur> alise: the main differences between muse and stefani
01:47:54 <augur> as far as i can tell
01:48:04 <alise> Be very careful with your next words.
01:48:08 <augur> stefani uses a basilect, and has a more hissy voice
01:48:19 <alise> OK, as long as you criticise Black Holes and Revelations and after you're good.
01:48:24 <pikhq> Constructed-pop is perhaps the most painful thing to listen to ever.
01:48:32 <alise> But Origin of Symmetry is above criticism, dammit.
01:52:50 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vBZrc4ZEYM&feature=related
01:53:15 <alise> Why has YouTube become the music distribution source?
01:53:29 <alise> augur: That so needs speeding up.
01:53:45 <augur> alise: because its hard to police
01:53:59 <alise> It's fucking video.
01:54:15 <augur> theres no equivalent to it in terms of audio
01:54:25 <augur> with a bajillion videos uploaded every day
01:54:29 <augur> its hard to police for music
01:55:01 <augur> on the other hand, if there were an equivalent audio site, it'd be MOSTLY music
01:55:11 <alise> ur mom is mostly music
01:56:30 <augur> thats too nice a thing to say about my mom.
01:57:16 <alise> i think i'll just make a mental note to never make ur mom jokes in #esoteric
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02:00:52 <Sgeo> Grooveshark exists
02:02:01 <augur> grooveshark is rather shit
02:02:29 <augur> but it did have a song that was nifty
02:02:39 <augur> also, grooveshark is legal.
02:02:44 <augur> its not music sharing in the same way.
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02:06:50 * Sgeo WTFs at Google Chrome update
02:07:05 <Sgeo> At least there's a nice icon telling me
02:15:08 * Sgeo learns of /r/nethack
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02:44:08 <Sgeo> Going to torture myself with more SGI soon
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03:15:31 <pikhq> Huh. An unmatched " or ' on a logical line is undefined behavior in C.
03:15:45 <pikhq> It would be perfectly acceptable for the compiler to respond by blowing up the planet.
03:16:40 <Gregor> pikhq: OMG NEW T-REX IS LONELY COMIC
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03:39:51 <coppro> pikhq: I know. That one is epic
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04:32:23 * pikhq is now highly upset.
04:32:48 <pikhq> The only thing I have found that does vertical text only Linux without fiddling is... OpenOffice.
04:34:07 <pikhq> Pango requires fiddling.
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04:34:16 <pikhq> Sadly, OpenOffice fucks up the details.
04:34:56 <pikhq> (「 is *technically* a half-width character with an implicit half-width space preceding it, except at the start of lines...)
04:36:18 <pikhq> It also doesn't do hanging punctuation.
04:36:29 <pikhq> So, it does vertical *text*, but it rapes typesetting.
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04:38:06 <coppro> are you trying to do Japanese?
04:38:51 <pikhq> I have yet to find anything on Linux that typesets vertical Japanese correctly.
04:42:04 <pikhq> (TeX manages to do horizontal Japanese decently)
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04:55:21 <zzo38> They keep moving the spider!
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05:03:34 <zzo38> O, please read the follow spell (if you do not want to dye, or even if you do want to dye): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Good_Insane_Spell.s (and suggest a spell level and/or domain)
05:03:51 <zzo38> (Please note I meant if you do or not want to dye, I don't mean die)
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05:11:04 * pikhq fucking *hates* how absolutely nothing handles freaking two consecutive punctuation correct.
05:11:31 <pikhq> 」。, if done *right*, would be a single character in width.
05:11:32 <zzo38> pikhq: What do you expect?
05:11:46 <pikhq> zzo38: Proper Japanese typesetting.
05:12:21 <zzo38> Can TeX be made to make Japanese writing including it being done right?
05:14:10 <zzo38> Please tell me what level this spell could be? Could it be a 6th level spell? Or 7th level spell?
05:16:08 <zzo38> coppro: Rolled when?
05:17:23 <zzo38> I don't see how it could work at preparation time, but perhaps, every day. But then, that means it can be learned at any level and sometimes you will be unable to use it that day??
05:17:37 <coppro> also, a strict reading of 0% would mean that if you rolleit, then rolled, again, you would roll 4 more times
05:17:37 <zzo38> Also I think it is powerful for 1st level spell or 2nd level spell
05:17:41 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
05:18:12 <zzo38> coppro: That is not what is meant, if you roll 0% and then 0% again, you are meant to roll 3 more times, how can I clarify that?
05:19:53 <coppro> zzo38: delete the part about rolling 0% again
05:19:57 <zzo38> (Also, for the level, I do not have a nine sided dice anyways)
05:20:20 <zzo38> coppro: What if I put that part in parentheses?
05:20:27 <coppro> yeah, that would probably be good
05:20:43 <zzo38> Done. It is now in parentheses
05:21:02 <zzo38> But if the level is random, I still don't know how you are supposed to decide when, and how it will work with a random level
05:22:18 <zzo38> But if the level is random I don't like 1d9 or 1d10-1, perhaps 1d4+4 or 1d6+3 would be better, but it still not quite sure how well it can work like that
05:24:46 <zzo38> And which domain would the spell belong to? And what mantle?
05:25:30 <zzo38> Do you like this spell? How often would *you* cast this spell?
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05:29:25 <zzo38> Is there anything else unclear about the spell?
05:32:48 <coppro> zzo38: Probably never, because I value my sanity
05:33:28 <zzo38> Sanity is the trademark of a weak mind.
05:35:07 <zzo38> (Actually I don't know who Mark Harrold is, and I don't care)
05:35:11 <zzo38> (But that's irrelevant)
05:35:25 <zzo38> Is anything unclear about the spell effect, as it is currently written?
05:35:51 <zzo38> Is the spell sufficiently balanced close enough?
05:41:49 <zzo38> (O, and also, please do not steal my stapler.)
05:43:06 <coppro> it's so silly I don't think it could be said to be balanced one way or another
05:45:06 <zzo38> I still think it is worth 6th or 7th level, though. All the costs of it will make balance about as much as Limited Wish and other spells like that
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05:45:51 <zzo38> The spell can potentially kill you if you are not careful (and possibly even if you are careful)!
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07:40:58 <coppro> I discovered the epicness that is 'dn' in vim
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07:51:13 <Vorpal> coppro, talking of /, I just realised the phrase "spell pretty pi" is a valid sed expression
07:51:34 <Vorpal> (same meaning as s/ell /retty /i )
07:52:13 <Vorpal> it should be possible to use that general idea for some interesting obfuscation. Perhaps even sed poems
07:52:54 <Vorpal> calamari, sounds like a good target for such obfuscation.
07:53:02 <Vorpal> alas I don't know sed quite well enough
07:53:24 <calamari> I looked the other day, didn't find one
07:53:39 <Vorpal> calamari, wait, isn't sed input bound
07:53:53 <Vorpal> at least it need one line of input to compute anything
07:53:55 <fizzie> No, you can do arbitrarily much computation per input line.
07:54:04 <fizzie> You do need one line of input, that's true.
07:54:53 <coppro> I now really really <3 the concept of motions (and I was a fan before)
07:55:26 <Vorpal> anyone know the size of the set of valid unique irc nick chars? With unique I mean counting Foo and foo as the same, since irc is case insensitive.
07:56:34 <Vorpal> my goal here is figuring out how many possible nicks of max length 16 there are
07:56:43 <fizzie> The valid characters are different for the first character than the others.
07:56:54 -!- calamari has changed nick to a234567890123456.
07:56:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah... yes that complicates it indeed
07:57:27 <fizzie> And it also depends on whether your server does that sort-of-standard-but-still-obsoleted case-mapping of former Finnish 7-bit encoding åäö/ÅÄÖ.
07:57:55 <Vorpal> on the server I'm calculating this for: CHARSET=ascii
07:58:05 -!- a234567890123456 has changed nick to a_-.
07:58:16 <Vorpal> I own _[] on freenode :P
07:58:20 -!- a_- has changed nick to a[].
07:58:34 -!- a[] has changed nick to a^.
07:58:38 <fizzie> The legal starting characters are A-Z and these: [ ] \ ` _ ^ { | }
07:58:56 <fizzie> And then digits 0-9 in the non-starting ones.
07:59:12 <a^> so there you go..
07:59:16 -!- a^ has changed nick to calamari.
07:59:25 <Vorpal> that means for any length n the number of valid nicks are s*t^n where s is size of starting set and t is the size of the set for the rest...
07:59:56 <Vorpal> is there anything like ! except for plus rather than multiplication?
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08:00:09 <Vorpal> calamari, you need to include each length
08:00:18 <Vorpal> shorter than or equal to 16
08:00:43 <Vorpal> wait, got to rush, will do this when I get back
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08:01:39 <fizzie> If you're in such a rush, just write the terms; there's not *that* many of them.
08:01:46 <fizzie> 35+35*45+34*(45^2)+34*(45^3)+34*(45^4)+34*(45^5)+34*(45^6)+34*(45^7)+34*(45^8)+34*(45^9)+34*(45^10)+34*(45^11)+34*(45^12)+34*(45^13)+34*(45^14)+34*(45^15)
08:01:46 <fizzie> 218487432379159386374733710
08:02:53 <fizzie> Except don't do what I do and typo that 35 as 34. :p
08:03:39 <calamari> I think I personally would have factored that out lol
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08:05:07 <fizzie> >>> sum([35*(45**x) for x in range(16)])
08:05:07 <fizzie> 224913533331487603621049360L
08:05:13 <fizzie> That's the Python one.
08:06:16 <calamari> >>> math.log(a*35)/math.log(2)
08:07:28 <calamari> so you have approx 11 bytes of storage (assuming that's what this was for?)
08:11:14 <fizzie> Did we have that thing here?
08:11:17 <fizzie> !haskell sum (map (\x -> 35*45^x) [0 .. 15])
08:11:33 <EgoBot> 224913533331487603621049360
08:14:54 <calamari> !haskell sum (map (\x -> 2^x) [0 .. 100000])
08:16:06 <coppro> have you ever written code that you actually use in something that, whenver you look at it, you are both proud and disgusted to have written it?
08:16:57 <fizzie> !haskell 35*(45^16-1) `div` 44
08:16:59 <EgoBot> 199800418602876901588806552866006718196085827810836338354305854772629166492851469665497466266489930080632878889111170986003759932153123531258169427084949857503977792597473421864927008547462249585316005570624821774741712105744567803291373820537013518470358293941057152893936030496646909510865005855730416139155419434822044640859527024106615559937958502332397415435715519110434401626405904092358984585185912478419315957471163173350509915946262896124985205236
08:18:10 <fizzie> Well, it would give the same answer, but I guess EgoBot is being busy now.
08:21:57 <calamari> hate to crash the bot and run, but I need to go to bed :)
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08:22:24 <fizzie> Perhaps it just ignored the stuff that happened while it was busey?
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08:25:06 <fizzie> !perl $s += 35*(45**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s;
08:25:13 <fizzie> That's not quite as useful, thanks to floats.
08:26:04 <fizzie> !perl use bignum; $s += 35*(45**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s;
08:26:06 <EgoBot> 224913533331487603621049360
08:31:26 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
08:31:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, CHARSET=ascii does not mean anything about the case-mapping.
08:32:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: If it says CASEMAPPING=rfc1459 it technically speaking should be using the "weird" one.
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08:33:36 <fizzie> Freenode seems to say that, though it might be lying. IRCnet nowadays says CASEMAPPING=ascii, which I guess means just A-Z → a-z translation.
08:33:58 <fizzie> It's just -3 to the sizes, though.
08:34:09 <fizzie> !perl use bignum; $s += 32*(42**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s;
08:34:10 <EgoBot> 73173658289716097933147360
08:50:38 <Deewiant> 5" +q"f2+'a4'@*+1",A@"**+'15' ")y/"6'@'Y3'@*+**+****+*******
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09:49:49 <Vorpal> so yeah the weird mapping
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09:52:17 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:04:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: you're making me want to create an esolang inspired by that syntax ← I once tried, but that was for the export system.
09:53:36 <fizzie> Strange that freenode, which is otherwise very modernized, still keeps the "old" case-mapping, while IRCnet, which tends to be very "conservative" sort of place, doesn't.
09:54:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: IRC's legacy thing where {|} are equal to [\] in nicknames.
09:55:13 <fizzie> (Since nicknames are compared case-insensitively, and those characters are åäö and ÅÄÖ in one old 7-bit Finnish encoding.
09:56:21 <fizzie> Yes, but it's the wrong way around.
09:56:28 <fizzie> {|} are the lowercase characters.
09:56:53 <fizzie> Well, no, you can't actually *see* that, but it's that way in the ToUpper/ToLower tables.
09:58:00 <fizzie> Similarly ~ is lowercase ^, but that doesn't matter so much because ~ is not legal in nicknames. It might matter in some other context.
10:01:14 <fizzie> fis@iris:~$ echo åäö | iconv -t FI
10:01:21 <fizzie> Nice that iconv still has that thing, too.
10:01:36 <fizzie> (At least this version. Something I tried it on didn't.)
10:02:37 <fizzie> Yes. Not very programmer-friendly, but there's not that much "useless" characters in ASCII.
10:03:35 <fizzie> I doubt anyone actually wrote code in that encoding, though. I've mostly seen it in BBSy contexts.
10:04:29 <fizzie> Even there files tended to be handled separately, and moved over ZMODEM or something that does 8-bit octets.
10:07:49 <fizzie> I think I was about to say either "8-bit bytes" or "octets", and managed to produce a hybrid.
10:09:21 <Ilari> Heh... I see some POS systems print product names containing ä using those [ characters...
10:10:25 <fizzie> Oh, I was thing of a completely other four-letter S word.
10:10:42 <fizzie> (Also "piece" instead of "point".)
10:12:00 <fizzie> <span lang="fi">Mutta eiväthän ääkköset ole enää ongelma!</span>
10:32:22 <Vorpal> argh I seem to lack some kernel option for blktrace, but I can't find which one
10:32:39 <Vorpal> /sys/kernel/debug is there, but /sys/kernel/debug/block/ is not...
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10:35:34 <fizzie> BLK_DEV_IO_TRACE perhaps?
10:37:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, trying to locate it
10:38:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, is there any slowdown when not in use hm?
10:39:16 <fizzie> This is a complete guess, but I'd go with "perhaps some, but probably not much".
10:41:27 <Vorpal> still I'm wondering what the heck is causing IO more or less all the time
10:42:38 <Vorpal> here we go *compiles kernel*
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10:47:57 <fizzie> I think blktrace's in-kernel infra is done with the "kernel markers" thing, which I believe are pretty low-overhead when not in use, though maybe not completely invisible like kprobes.
10:53:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, great... it just displays kcryptd.... How completely useless
10:54:17 <fizzie> Can you trace at bit higher level? The dm-crypt devices are block devices too, after all.
10:54:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I did it on /dev/mapper/root
10:55:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems all writes are dumped onto flush-252:0 or kcryptd while reads go to the apps that did it
10:55:23 <Vorpal> tested by catting a large file and also by then teeing it to another file
10:55:52 <fizzie> That's a bit strange, but perhaps understandable. The actual write-to-disk act is a bit decoupled from the application requests.
10:56:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, well... my goal is figuring out what apps wake up the disk from sleep in my laptop
10:56:57 <fizzie> What if you temporarily mount it with -O sync? (This may mean horrible amount of disk-trashing and slowness, though.)
10:57:31 <fizzie> -o; I don't know where I remembered -O from.
10:57:43 <fizzie> It might still not catch the application, though.
10:58:15 <Vorpal> oh it does in one case, but not in another one
10:59:00 <Vorpal> rsyslogd, konsole, jbd2/dm-0-8 and flush-252:0 Oh and swapper(0)
10:59:16 <Vorpal> what is swapper? it is not the swap device... so it can't be that
11:00:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you somehow get the file out of it? I'm using btrace with -s for per-program stats
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11:00:55 <fizzie> I don't really know. Probably not, since it's done at the block device level; though I guess with knowledge of the file system you could reverse-map blocks back to files.
11:01:13 <fizzie> Some sort of VFS-level tracing thing sounds more suitable for this, but I'm not sure what there is on that level.
11:01:26 <Vorpal> I guess lsof should be able to help with figuring out what files are open at least
11:02:18 <Vorpal> konsole has 289 files open. Most looks like pipes and some mmaped fontconfig things, and lots of *.so
11:02:41 <Vorpal> well, I can ignore /usr, since there is nothing writable for it there
11:06:59 <fizzie> I remember looking for a nice VFS-level IO tracing tool earlier too, and I don't think I had much luck in finding one then.
11:08:01 <Vorpal> unix sockets on the file system, those wouldn't cause any writing would they?
11:08:17 <Vorpal> it's pretty much that and $HOME/.xsession-errors left after elimination
11:10:12 <Vorpal> hm lsof does not show fd flags
11:10:41 <fizzie> Mhmmm, have you that thing mounted with noatime?
11:11:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, due to some apps screwing up with noatime
11:12:07 <fizzie> There are reasonably few of those, but I guess relatime is a good compromise anyway.
11:12:27 <Vorpal> well now I can't check any more, since it is on AC it decided to start cronjobs
11:12:42 <Vorpal> so atm all I will see is mandb
11:12:56 <Vorpal> yes I remounted without the sync flag since then
11:13:27 <fizzie> I don't see how actual write/read on a unix socket would cause any filesystem writes, but it exists as a file so perhaps metadata updates. Doesn't sound very likely.
11:15:09 <fizzie> There's that "fsnotify" thing that I think should be usable for tracing all operations over an entire filesystem (unlike dnotify/inotify where you'd have to watch each directory separately), but I'm not sure if there's sensible userland tools for it.
11:17:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, do you happen to know if nvidia works with the new 2.6.35 kernel?
11:18:01 <fizzie> Haven't tried, but there's usually a patch floating out there somewhere very soon.
11:18:39 <Vorpal> well, it builds against it
11:18:44 <Vorpal> doesn't mean it works nicely though
11:19:48 <fizzie> I've been running the Ubuntu stock kernel lately on the only box I have with a monitor, so... for some reason there hasn't been any pressing need to twiddle with any settings.
11:20:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I'm updating on my arch linux desktop as well, and I run vanilla there
11:20:26 <Vorpal> the arch kernel only has like one or two small patches anyway
11:21:52 <Vorpal> You have mail in /var/spool/mail/arvid
11:21:58 <Vorpal> Alpine finished -- Closed empty folder "INBOX"
11:22:08 <Vorpal> whatever sent that first notification failed
11:24:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway on my ubuntu laptop I have like three separate things to build out of tree after kernel upgrade: tp_smapi (thinkpad stuff) using some "module-assistant" tool, backported and slightly patched wireless drivers (manual), virtualbox kernel module (supposedly automatic but often fails)
11:24:56 <Vorpal> (fails as in fails to run, not as in compile error)
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11:26:40 <fizzie> Someone has done something sensible to DKMS on Ubuntu, though: it used to take a horrible amount of time (multiple seconds!) on boot-up to do who-knows-what, but it no longer does. Possibly they've moved some stuff to the hooks it runs when installing new kernels.
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11:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I've had a couple of boots hang lately, so...
11:44:14 <Vorpal> on desktop it is dm-1, dm-2 and dm-3 that are being written to. Those are home, var and tmp hm
11:45:33 <Vorpal> oh well, /home is irc logs... or at least part of the activity on there is.
11:49:25 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why CL's standard doesn't require tail call elimination.
11:49:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It's hardly a taxing requirement, compared to piles of mud like LOOP and FORMAT.
11:57:59 <fizzie> It might be somewhat tricky if your implementation is to compile into a higher-level language that doesn't do tail calls.
11:59:28 <fizzie> I'm thinking mostly C here. Still, I doubt Scheme's tail-call necessities have ever stopped anyone from implementing it. (I've seen non-conformant non-tail-callsy Schemes, though.)
12:00:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, C is hardly higher level compared to CL ;P
12:00:37 <Vorpal> (yeah that isn't what you meant, but that is what you said!)
12:01:07 <fizzie> I thought about clarifying, but...
12:03:45 <Vorpal> what happens if you mmap a file and then close the fd before munmapping it?
12:09:32 <fizzie> It might keep the file "open" still, much like what happens if you close a dup'd fd, but that's just a guess.
12:10:48 <fizzie> "The mmap() function adds an extra reference to the file associated with the file descriptor fildes which is not removed by a subsequent close() on that file descriptor. This reference is removed when there are no more mappings to the file." -- SUSv2, http://opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908775/xsh/mmap.html
12:13:09 <fizzie> (I don't have the POSIX pdfs handily downloaded here at work.)
12:13:25 <fizzie> (And can never remember where they were in the web.)
12:14:25 <fizzie> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/mmap.html apparently. It's the same text there, though.
12:14:49 <fizzie> Except that it says "shall add" instead of "adds".
12:15:07 <Vorpal> btw how does the kernel talk to hardware? I was reading dmesg after kernel upgrade and saw: "[ 0.000000] Detected use of extended apic ids on hypertransport bus", it makes me wonder how it does that
12:15:44 <fizzie> I haven't been keeping up on hardware interfaces at all.
12:15:59 <fizzie> A lot of it is memory-mapped instead of I/O ports nowadays, I believe.
12:16:00 <Vorpal> right, it was aimed at the channel in general
12:16:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, well considering hypertransport it very likely is
12:18:06 <Vorpal> wtf at "[ 0.000000] Aperture too small (32 MB) than (64 MB)"
12:18:16 <Vorpal> it said on the line above it was 256 MB
12:18:27 <Vorpal> but the wtf here was the spelling
12:18:35 <Vorpal> or more correctly the lack of grammar
12:21:41 <fizzie> That's what you get when you leave error messages up to programmers.
12:21:50 <fizzie> Especially hairy kernel programmers. (That's another tautology.)
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12:24:40 <fizzie> The cpu-core local APIC is talked to via a 4k memory-mapped APIC register space, and the addresses for that are set by a particular MSR. I wouldn't be surprised if it's like that for other close-to-processor things too.
12:27:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually I believe it might be due to Japanese programmers. Reading kernel changelog I have come to the conclusion that many Japanese programmers have a most curious grammar
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12:33:05 <Vorpal> [ 1.844705] loop: module loaded <-- um, it is compiled in XD
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12:34:28 <Vorpal> coppro, your cloak, it does nothing:
12:34:32 <Vorpal> * coppro (~scshunt@nat/uwaterloo/x-gjuhzltilsfaavyu) has joined #esoteric
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12:34:47 <Vorpal> well, your second one that is
12:34:55 <Vorpal> the first one I don't know, looks strange
12:37:25 <fizzie> Kernel sources are always nice reading.
12:37:37 <fizzie> if (bpp == 24) { /* sorry */ } else { ...
12:38:12 <fizzie> It's at least nice that they're sorry.
12:38:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I still think #define SECONDS_PER_MINUTE 60 from the freebsd pc speaker driver is the best wtf from kernel sources I have seen so far
12:38:28 <Vorpal> at least it wasn't a runtime variable
12:39:03 <Vorpal> [ 5.987224] input: PC Speaker as /devices/platform/pcspkr/input/input4
12:39:13 <Vorpal> how is the pc speaker an input device?
12:40:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and they fail at locking for kernel messages:
12:40:16 <Vorpal> [ 6.755445] md2: detected capacity change from 0 to 995702931456
12:40:16 <Vorpal> [ 6.755460] md2: unknown partition table
12:40:16 <Vorpal> [ 6.794998] unknown partition table
12:40:27 <Vorpal> the first and the last line I think are the same
12:40:36 <Vorpal> only way that makes any sense at all
12:41:14 <fizzie> Might be a performance thing.
12:41:31 <Vorpal> it repeats the unknown partition table for md2 several times btw
12:41:44 <Vorpal> which is quite logical, since it contains a lvm pv
12:41:56 <fizzie> And I think the speaker-as-an-input-device thing could be related to input-device-layer beeps.
12:42:34 <Vorpal> [ 31.376013] sixxs: no IPv6 routers present <-- how absurd. It is an IPv6 tunnel...
12:42:43 <Vorpal> well, the tun interface for the tunnel
12:43:36 <fizzie> You can still run addrconf over it; the message is related to that.
12:44:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw a strange thing I noticed when starting X, is that it resets the acoustic management thingy on the harddrives. I fail to see how.
12:44:15 <Vorpal> [ 260.048439] ata1.00: configured for UDMA/133
12:44:15 <Vorpal> [ 260.048448] ata1: EH complete
12:44:15 <Vorpal> [ 260.236441] ata2.00: configured for UDMA/133
12:44:15 <Vorpal> [ 260.236452] ata2: EH complete
12:44:38 <Vorpal> this happened on 2.6.34 too
12:44:51 <fizzie> Strange. Maybe a side effect of some other hardware-initialization/query thing? Who knows.
12:45:11 <fizzie> Peeking at my boot-time dmesgs too, on the single-core Atom box: "ACPI: NR_CPUS/possible_cpus limit of 1 reached. Processor 1/0x1 ignored."
12:45:37 <fizzie> No idea. I don't even know if that latter index is 0-based or not.
12:45:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, my kernel is compiled without SMP support on the desktop, since it is single core and custom kernel
12:46:04 <fizzie> There is HT on the Atom, at least. I don't remember about the kernel side.
12:46:15 <Vorpal> well that would explain it
12:46:19 <Vorpal> it ignored the second core
12:47:01 <fizzie> I wouldn't think hyperthreading to show up as a separate processor in ACPI though, but I guess it might.
12:49:36 <fizzie> ata2.00: ATA-0: ELITE PRO CF CARD 16GB, Ver2.19K, max UDMA/100 -- the poor man's SSD.
12:49:53 <fizzie> (There's a compact flash card inside.)
12:51:22 <fizzie> I don't have a pcspeaker input device, but I have this other sort of beep: input: HDA Digital PCBeep as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/input/input2
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12:53:09 <fizzie> Heh, CPUID strings from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID -- "AMDisbetter!" - early engineering samples of AMD K5 processor
12:53:27 <fizzie> Then they went with the boring AuthenticAMD, but I guess it at least is still a ripoff of GenuineIntel.
12:55:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is less UDMA than my sata drives
12:55:24 <fizzie> Hey, it's a compactflash card; cut it some slack.
12:55:33 <fizzie> It's not like it's going to saturate the bus anyway.
12:56:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, a bit strange on my thinkpad, DVD is UDMA/133, hdd is UDMA/100
12:56:13 <Vorpal> on my desktop the dvd is UDMA/33, but then it is also PATA
12:59:06 <fizzie> The sensible way around on this work-workstation.
12:59:21 <fizzie> ata1.00: ATA-8: Hitachi HDP725016GLA380, GMBOA5BA, max UDMA/133; ata2.00: ATAPI: PLDS DVD+/-RW DH-16A6S, YD11, max UDMA/100.
13:00:54 <fizzie> "agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: detected 32764K stolen memory". Hey, who's been stealing my memory?!
13:01:15 <fizzie> Or possibly the IT folks here have been installing stolen goods into the boxen.
13:01:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of GPU? It should perhaps be shared video memory?
13:02:45 <Vorpal> [ 0.758976] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: Intel Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset
13:02:45 <Vorpal> [ 0.759959] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: detected 32764K stolen memory
13:03:02 <Vorpal> well strange it says agpgart, I'm 99% certain it is PCIe
13:04:18 <fizzie> It's some Intel integrated, I guess.
13:05:40 <fizzie> Intel "Q45/Q43", whatever it's like
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13:23:30 <oerjan> <Vorpal> is there anything like ! except for plus rather than multiplication?
13:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> There's no special notation, because there's a nice closed form.
13:24:54 <oerjan> i think i may have seen /\n (/\ here being a triangle)
13:26:06 <oerjan> also binomial coefficient n+1 over 2
13:26:34 <fizzie> Here the question was more about the sum of a geometric series, $ \sum_{k=0}^n 35*45^k = 35 \frac{45^{k+1} - 1}{45 - 1}$.
13:27:26 <fizzie> For some reason I hadn't realized EgoBot has a handy !perl too.
13:27:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, .XCompose?
13:27:56 <Vorpal> does that work in any other app?
13:28:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Did you try the XIM thing?
13:28:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how curious. File a bug?
13:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, no, because I wasn't able to work out what it was.
13:28:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: "It's not a bug, it's a feature." GTK+ has a hardcoded compose table, and they know it already.
13:30:17 <fizzie> The XIM thing is to stick export GTK_IM_MODULE="xim" into some suitable place, but it also means you might lose some GTK-specific input finery.
13:31:02 <fizzie> What was what about geometric series?
13:31:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, why do they hard code it
13:31:13 <Vorpal> how can that be a feature?
13:31:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's true, isn't it?
13:32:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what GTK specific input stuff would one lose?
13:32:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It looks correct according to what I can remember of the finite calculus.
13:32:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: The hardcoded table is (or was, when it was made) an improvement over X's default tables; and I guess they wanted it also to be locale-*in*sensitive, to be more harmonious across locales.
13:33:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, that seems backwards. Besides it is afaik missing pi and many math symbols
13:33:11 <Vorpal> which are the ones I'm actually interested in on compose
13:33:31 <fizzie> So is/was the X table, I think.
13:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, that is exactly why I want to shoot the people who did it.
13:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "We're going to hardcode the compose table and leave all the interesting symbols out!"
13:34:26 <fizzie> And there's a GTK-specific unicode composition thing; ctrl-shift-u + string of hex digits with ctrl-shift held down composes a Unicode character. There might be more stuff for more complicated languages, I don't know about that.
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13:38:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, compose p i would be nice
13:40:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, but what will I be missing with xim?
13:41:46 <fizzie> Whatever you get with SCIM, which I think is what it uses otherwise. I have no idea what that is, since my language is so trivial to input.
13:41:58 <fizzie> At least that Unicode thing I mentioned, I think.
13:43:12 <fizzie> Orrrr... or is it so that the hardcoded composite table is only in GTK_IM_MODULE=gtk-im-context-simple. It could be so, too.
13:47:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: From what I can tell, in a 'buntu system you should use "im-switch -s default-xim" to make a user-specific "default Gnome and Qt to use XIM" setting.
13:48:17 <fizzie> It seems to mangle some environment variables that xinit sets, but I don't know how the user-level customizations happen.
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14:02:38 <fizzie> You did restart your X, right?
14:03:05 <fizzie> Well, you ping-timeouted.
14:03:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, XChat seems to have problems with handling quits gracefully.
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14:04:33 <fizzie> You could echo $GTK_IM_MODULE in a xterm to see if it even managed to put that variable in. Oh, and also to run a GTK app manually with that, something like "GTK_IM_MODULE=xim xchat", and see if the textfields there understand .Xcompose.
14:04:51 <fizzie> (If not, then I don't have many leftover suggestions.)
14:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Launching xterm from gnome-terminal doesn't work, but it does when I use alt-f2.
14:07:56 <fizzie> Heh-eh. And the manual variable-setting?
14:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Now I need to make it be set when GNOME starts, though.
14:10:28 <fizzie> Well, gnome-session startup scripts source ~/.gnomerc before starting, so you can put an export command there.
14:11:14 <fizzie> It's ran with ".", so just write export GTK_IM_MODULE=xim there.
14:11:43 <fizzie> If you want to undo whatever im-switch messed up, you can remove the ~/.xinput.d directory it makes. I don't think there should be anything else than im-switch's mess in there. (But maybe rename it for one X restart before outright deleting it.)
14:15:39 <fizzie> Hhheh. You can try that "-z all_ALL" flag to im-switch if you feel like it.
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15:25:11 <cpressey> Gregor: I got music! Finally! Thanks for your advice.
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15:34:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, found a nice soundfont?
15:35:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: The "Chorium" one Gregor suggested sounds fine
15:35:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, isn't that piano only?
15:35:25 <Vorpal> or was that another one
15:35:49 <cpressey> Vorpal: I hope not, otherwise that piano sounded a lot like a bassoon.
15:36:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, how large is the file? Over 100 MB right?
15:36:55 <cpressey> Vorpal: I don't remember. Probably. It took a while to download.
15:37:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, is it too much to hope for that you are good at decoding routing tables?
15:38:10 <Vorpal> I'm trying to make sense of my ipv6 routing table.
15:38:14 <cpressey> Vorpal: Yes, it's too much to hope for.
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16:04:06 <cpressey> I love how the standard icon for "save" in our culture is still the 3-1/2" floppy disc...
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16:24:39 <Gregor> http://gizmodo.com/5614433/this-is-the-first-imax-3d-porn-movie-yes-imax-3d-porn "I don't know how many people would like to watch a gigantic penis waving in 3D a few centimeters from their faces"
16:26:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, I invoke Rule 34 on IMAX itself!
16:51:13 <Zuu> Gregor, not a penis, but maybe a boob :>
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17:51:50 <Vorpal> I have a macbook here that claims it get an ip from dhcp from the wrong segment
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18:21:02 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> I have a macbook here that claims it get an ip from dhcp from the wrong segment <-- fixed by restarting router -_-
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18:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the current state of the art in cracking SHA512?
18:48:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, last I checked it was "har har, good luck"
18:48:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that would take forever
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18:50:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, as far as I heard it is likely your CPU will be gone due to decay before you break the SHA512 by brute force on current state of the art PCs.
18:50:48 <Vorpal> and that was assuming some reasonably optimised implementation in C iirc
18:51:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well I think it was for an 650 MB ISO in that case
18:51:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well yes, but even assuming passwords it is probably going to take way too long to be feasible, assuming passwords are shorter than ISOs in general :P
18:52:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm why are you asking this?
18:52:26 <Vorpal> besides for passwords it will probably be salted
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19:01:43 <fizzie> Perl's "bytecode" is also not very low-level: the parsing is done, but the bytecode form is a (bit optimized) parse tree; it's pretty far from something like JVM bytecode. (Or Perl 6 and the Parrot VM, for that matter.)
19:03:27 <Vorpal> even further from that
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19:05:28 <fizzie> There used to be a separate, experimental set of tools for compiling to the bytecode separately, loading and executing it, as well as a translation to C, but those were dropped from the Perl 5.10 distribution.
19:05:39 <fizzie> "perlcc, the byteloader and the supporting modules (B::C, B::CC, B::Bytecode, etc.) are no longer distributed with the perl sources. Those experimental tools have never worked reliably, and, due to the lack of volunteers to keep them in line with the perl interpreter developments, it was decided to remove them instead of shipping a broken version of those. The last version of those modules can be found with perl 5.9.4."
19:09:08 <fizzie> You can run something like perl -MO=Concise -e '$a = $b+42;' to see a bit what the bytecode looks like.
19:10:16 <Vorpal> never seen this heavy rain before
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19:16:35 <pikhq> fizzie: Few interpreters have low-level bytecode.
19:17:22 <fizzie> Perhaps that is so. I have no clue what Python gets mangled to, for example.
19:17:33 <pikhq> More typically, you're just wanting to make interpreting faster than walking a parse tree.
19:20:04 <fizzie> Python's bytecode seems to be for a rather low-level stack-based VM.
19:20:35 <fizzie> Based on the opcode list at http://docs.python.org/library/dis.html anyway.
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19:21:15 <fizzie> On the other hand, the BASIC's I've known mostly just tokenize commands and that's about it.
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19:27:22 <cpressey> What's so slow about walking a (threaded) parse tree? The only thing I can think of is that it's bulkier and so will have worse cache performance.
19:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> SSE plausibly might, but I can't recall any single instruction for it
19:29:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think it does.
19:29:59 <fizzie> Your generic SIMD that can do 128-bit values as pairs of two 64-bit double-precision floats will obviously help in manipulating complex numbers, though.
19:32:40 <pikhq> cpressey: It's bulkier, has worse cache performance, and often has more requisite branching.
19:32:58 <pikhq> Making it slower by constant factors.
19:34:44 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: TI's TMS320C64x+ has complex-multiply (of two pairs of signed, packed 16-bit values; it's a 16-bit fixpoint thing) opcodes, but it's not exactly a traditional "CPU", rather a DSP thing.
19:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I think you could do it on SSE with a small number of instructions.
19:35:53 <cpressey> pikhq: Well, "requisite branching"... in a parse tree, you always get an absolute(ish) pointer to the next node. In a flat-memory VM, you can ++ an offset to get to the next instruction. I guess it does take slightly longer to load up the absolute pointer, than it does to increment and resolve the offset.
19:36:21 <pikhq> cpressey: Small constant factor.
19:36:54 <pikhq> The more *noticable* changes from bytecode are probably because that allows for optimisation.
19:37:12 <pikhq> Well. I guess you can directly optimise a parse tree, but that's a bit harder.
19:38:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sure, and probably even less instructions with the new fused-multiply-add instruction sets ("a = a*b + c", basically) they've talked about. (And PPC has that particular operation, though I'm not sure if their SIMD extension, AltiVec, has.)
19:39:46 <fizzie> That TI DSP is also a.. was it a 8-way VLIW thing, so you could most likely do it in reasonably few cycles, even if there'd be several "instructions". Probably two, since you can do two general multiplications per cycle.
19:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Does SSE even give you the ability to work with packed doubles?
19:43:43 <fizzie> SSEn, for some number of n > 1, does, IIRC.
19:44:22 <fizzie> There's a MULPD listed in this overview.
19:44:46 <fizzie> "The MULPD instruction is an SSE2 instruction."
19:45:14 <cpressey> pikhq: Interesting. At any rate, bytecode doesn't seem to help CPython's speed much (compared to rb and perl which I hear are more parse-tree like.) lua and erl use a register machine model instead of a stack machine, and they both claim to have better performance because of it.
19:46:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, but SSE2 is the baseline nowdays
19:46:09 <fizzie> Parrot is a register-style VM too.
19:46:10 <Vorpal> all x86-64 has SSE2 at least
19:46:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, aren't most fast VMs that?
19:46:51 <pikhq> cpressey: Stack machine's simpler, register machine's simpler to optimise.
19:46:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, also erl? don't you mean beam?
19:47:00 <fizzie> I don't know about that; aren't most fast VMs JITting sort of thing?
19:47:18 <Vorpal> well, that is even faster
19:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So anyway, we need to have ac, ad, bc and bd to multiply two things.
19:47:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, I prefer pendant ;P
19:49:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ac ad? HERETIC!
19:49:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You might find SHUFPD helpful; like the name says, it shuffles the halves around.
19:49:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you are using multi-letter variables!
19:49:25 <Vorpal> for something as mathematical as multiplication
19:49:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean (a+bi)*(c+di), thus a, b, c and d?
19:50:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see, no need to resort to multi-letter variables
19:50:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's to indicate the necessary multiplications.
19:50:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, those looks like variables though
19:51:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah where did the i go there?
19:51:23 * cpressey stores i in a 64-bit register while no one is looking
19:51:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need to keep track of the i. You could end up with them canceling each other out
19:51:53 <cpressey> Vorpal: Are you familiar with complex numbers?
19:52:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, and I'm referring to multiplying with conjugate
19:52:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed
19:53:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah I see what you did there, you are discussing this on a rather lower level, while I'm thinking of symbolic manipulation like a CAS
19:53:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that explains everything
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19:55:15 * Sgeo is Henry the VIIth he is
19:55:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Phantom_Hoover, yes but it would be nonsensical not to treat it as ac-bd+adi+bci so you could remove terms symbolically in case it turned out that was possible. Such as ac=bd for example
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20:05:51 <cpressey> Most languages where you define named functions, it's like they have dynamic scope (for those function names). Especially if you can change them. I'm thinking Scheme's "define" here...
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20:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, assuming define is similar to CL's def* operators.
20:11:43 <Vorpal> cpressy: erlang and haskell use lexical scope for functions iirc
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20:12:49 <Vorpal> you can use a function before it is defined in erlang after all, as long as it is declared further down in the file everything is OK
20:12:53 <Vorpal> same goes for haskell iirc
20:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, in the sense that it only works if you've defined it earlier in the first file?
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20:14:22 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: dynamic binding of names. instead of lexical binding.
20:14:37 <cpressey> It's not really dynamic. I'm not explaining it well.
20:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, well, you can use let to make lexically scoped functions in Scheme anyway.
20:14:49 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> cpressy: erlang and haskell use lexical scope for functions iirc
20:14:53 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> you can use a function before it is defined in erlang after all, as long as it is declared further down in the file everything is OK
20:14:53 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> same goes for haskell iirc
20:14:59 <Vorpal> assuming that is the sense you meant
20:15:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, that is one way to interpret what you mean
20:15:25 <Vorpal> another would be runtime dynamic
20:15:42 <cpressey> Vorpal: that's not how I see it
20:15:49 <Vorpal> which doesn't apply very well to any compiled-to-low-enough-level language
20:15:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, then what do you mean
20:18:11 <Sgeo> A part of it boils down to "When someone saves your life, you belong to that person. She saved your life. Let's respect local customs!"
20:18:28 <Sgeo> (3rd episode of Stargate Infinity)
20:20:45 <Sgeo> And... internal inconsistency
20:21:16 <Sgeo> One or two episodes ago, the bad guys would apparently find it easy to keep chasing through the Stargate, but now it's difficult to determine last dialled addresses
20:21:33 <Sgeo> (The latter is more canonical in Stargate-verse, but SGI is very uncanonical anyway)
20:31:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo, this is completely out of context
20:31:33 <Sgeo> Stargate Infinity
20:31:44 <Vorpal> "<Sgeo> A part of it boils down to" <-- part of what?
20:31:57 <Sgeo> the episode's plot
20:31:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes but you used "it" without defining what "it" referred to
20:32:27 <fizzie> It was a forward-referring it. Don't be so linear!
20:51:02 <FireFly> Vorpal, why the nick change?
20:53:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there an SSE instruction to add the two doubles in an xmm register and store the result in the low quadword?
21:00:51 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: HADDPD sort-of does it. HADDPD xmm1, xmm2/mem128 adds the two doubles of xmm1 and stores the result in low half of xmm1; but it also adds the two doubles of xmm2/mem128 and stores that result in high half of xmm1, so you lose that half if you needed it for something.
21:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, basically, if xmm0 is (a,b) and xmm1 is (c,d) I want xmm0 to be (a-b,c+d)
21:02:19 <fizzie> As for the negation, I don't know about that, but you can ADDSUBPD xmm1, xmm2/mem128 to simultaneously do xmm1:high += xmm2:high and xmm1:low -= xmm2:low, which is sort-of the same as ADDPD but with the second argument negated.
21:16:13 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know elisp. What Scheme does is definitely a kind of dynamic scope for "define", though. (Even though it's touted as a "lexically scoped Lisp" -- that doesn't apply to "define".)
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21:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, can you give me a code snippet to demonstrate what you're getting at?
21:17:51 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1100763
21:18:02 <Vorpal> <FireFly> Vorpal, why the nick change? <-- why not
21:18:07 <cpressey> No "Scheme" markup on pastie.org. But there is "Go". Peasants!
21:18:23 <Vorpal> anyone has any experience with cross compiling the linux kernel here?
21:18:33 <FireFly> Vorpal, dunno, haven't noticed it before
21:18:50 <Vorpal> FireFly, well yeah, it is reasonably new
21:19:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: "k" is dynamically scoped.
21:19:53 <cpressey> In the sense that its meaning within r varies, yes.
21:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it could keep the reference, but that's probably not what you'd expect.
21:21:56 <Sgeo> Does Common Lisp really suck that bad?
21:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It's far from perfect, but it's a pretty good language, all in all.
21:23:21 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: What I expect is that if a language touts itself as being "lexically scoped"... well, whatever.
21:24:10 <Warrigal> For me, the easiest scoping to understand is no scoping.
21:24:23 <Sgeo> Woo, just won apples2apples!
21:24:25 <Warrigal> Want a local variable? Find an object and attach a property to it.
21:24:35 <Warrigal> And, uh, it's really, really easy to make global variables.
21:24:45 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, it's lexically scoped in the sense that if you call a function inside a let block or similar construct, then that function can't access any of the variables in that block.
21:24:46 <Warrigal> Eew. I no longer like no-scoping.
21:25:10 <Warrigal> Because it makes it really, really easy to make global variables.
21:25:32 <Sgeo> Newspeak is pretty much the opposite, right?
21:25:35 <Vorpal> Warrigal, I thought you meant that was a bonus? though I agree it is horrible
21:26:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I realize that. It's also dynamically scoped in the sense that if you call a function after a define, that function does access the names that you just (re)defined.
21:26:50 <Warrigal> Also, sometimes, scoping is pretty obvious. For example, function parameters should obviously be available to the function body.
21:28:01 <Warrigal> Now, how about Unlambda-style scoping? Variables are not allowed. Your program must consist entirely of built-in constants and literals.
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21:29:15 * cpressey starts singing that Bon Jovi song about "where the streets have no name"
21:30:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I make no claims for this to be optimal, but here's one way: http://sprunge.us/XLYL -- you could perhaps get rid of some shuffling.
21:30:25 <cpressey> I think it's U2. The Bon Jovi song has some line about "the streets are the same, only the names have changed"
21:30:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, what are the examples of non-dynamically scoped languages then
21:30:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, haskell? erlang?
21:31:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, erlang is too excluding hot-swapping of modules
21:31:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, which is really kind of out-of-band compared to scoping
21:31:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn Erlang at some point
21:31:30 <cpressey> Vorpal: that's why I didn't say Erlang
21:31:39 <Sgeo> I think I tried once
21:31:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, but I claim that is like unloading a *.so and then loading another
21:31:46 <Sgeo> Kind of gave up caring about it
21:31:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, haskell supports plugins and such
21:32:02 <Vorpal> thus dynamically scoped
21:32:31 <cpressey> Vorpal: OK, all languages that support that are dynamically scoped in this sense, then,
21:32:49 <fizzie> (It's a bit depressing that the actual ops (three: mulpd, mulpd, addsubpd) are fewer than move-around instructions (four: movddup, unpckhpd, 2*shufpd).)
21:32:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, and in the sense that haskell is not dynamically scoped, so is erlang not
21:33:24 <cpressey> Vorpal: Yes - was I not clear when I said "all languages"?
21:33:41 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, there could be languages not supporting this
21:33:58 <Warrigal> Phantom_Hoover: I'm using "scoping" metaphorically.
21:34:06 <cpressey> Vorpal: Yes - was I not clear when I said "all languages" *in the phrase* "all languages that support this"?
21:35:06 <Warrigal> Unlambda has no variables; thus, an Unlambda-scoped language is a language that has no variables.
21:35:47 <Vorpal> cpressey, well I just wanted to point out that erlang is in fact as statically scoped as haskell. Then I replied to "all languages"
21:35:50 <fizzie> Maybe horizontal add/sub could help in the shuffling, though perhaps not so much since there's only one of each, and haddpd/hsubpd always performs at least two adds/subs.
21:36:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, actually, there is a useful notation of "static in the sense of haskell and erlang"
21:36:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, in both cases plugins/hot-swap-upgrades can be considered out of band activities
21:36:47 <Vorpal> that is not really part of the actual language and it's syntax
21:38:04 <cpressey> Vorpal: I assume you mean "notion". Calling it an "out-of-band activity" is just a form of handwaving imo.
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21:38:41 <Vorpal> cpressey, err yes notion
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21:38:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, and no it isn't really hand waving
21:39:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, it is not something which is done during normal operation, you need to perform some kind of loading of a new compiled file
21:39:50 <cpressey> Vorpal: Erlang processes are purely functional. Oh, you're using the process dictionary? Well, that's out of band.
21:40:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, I think there is a difference there. Oh also ETS
21:40:39 <cpressey> The point is, I can pick anything, call it "out of band" and not "normal", and say anything I want about the rest.
21:40:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, and I do not consider erlang to be pure. Pure with a few exceptions yes, but that doesn't make pure
21:41:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, it is out of band in much the same way as hardware replacement is. On a server with hot swap
21:41:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, also be careful when hotswapping cpus
21:41:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh and easy to damage too
21:42:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, I never hot swapped one myself but I watched someone do it
21:44:14 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: On the other hand, no-one is *forcing* your complex numbers to have the order (real,imag) in memory. You can save one shuffle (thanks to the addsubpd "direction") if you just keep your doubles the other way around: http://sprunge.us/KQCc
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21:47:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does addsubpd do?
21:47:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, also couldn't this be done better with SSE3 perhaps?
21:48:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Given [a,b] in dst and [c,d] in src, it does dst <- [a+c,b-d]. Adds the high halves and subs the low ones.
21:48:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did they come up with that one
21:48:42 <fizzie> It's a reasonable thing!
21:49:00 <fizzie> And actually ADDSUBPD (as well as HADDPD/HSUBPD/MOVDDUP) *are* SSE3 instructions. Oh well.
21:49:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why not use them
21:50:22 <fizzie> "More specifically, instructions to add and subtract the multiple values stored within a single register have been added. These instructions simplify the implementation of a number of DSP and 3D operations."
21:50:39 <fizzie> They even mention complex numbers.
21:50:42 <fizzie> "MOVDDUP, MOVSHDUP, MOVSLDUP - These are also used for complex numbers, and can be helpful for wave calculation like sound."
21:51:28 <fizzie> I don't think 3DNow! (let's at least have the name right) even does double-precision.
21:51:32 <Vorpal> MOVSHDUP <-- Move Shadup?
21:51:48 <fizzie> "Move Single-Precision High and Duplicate".
21:51:59 <Vorpal> I prefer move and shut up :P
21:52:12 <Vorpal> prevents any MCE for 5 clock cycles ;P
21:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, it seems like such a stupid thing to leave out...
21:52:41 <fizzie> These at least have semi-pronounceable mnemonics; the packed-integer-data ops are sometimes worse. PUNPCKLQDQ?
21:53:52 <fizzie> "Unpack and Iterleave Low Quadwords" is what the title says, but...
21:54:55 <Vorpal> anyway SSE3 is a good baseline, unless you aim to support very old system
21:54:59 <Vorpal> in which case you want SSE
21:55:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, still a pure C fallback is best
21:55:07 <fizzie> PUNPCKLQDQ: pronounced pun-pucky-lucky-ducky.
21:55:15 <Vorpal> in case of you run on a pentium or such
21:55:36 <fizzie> I don't think this was for anything serious+
21:57:27 <fizzie> They instructions keep on getting more and more specialized, the larger numbers you put after SSE.
21:57:57 <fizzie> SSE4.1: "MPSADBW: Compute eight offset sums of absolute differences (i.e. |x0-y0|+|x1-y1|+|x2-y2|+|x3-y3|, |x0-y1|+|x1-y2|+|x2-y3|+|x3-y4|, ...); this operation is extremely important for modern HDTV codecs, and (see [5]) allows an 8x8 block difference to be computed in fewer than seven cycles."
21:58:19 <fizzie> They did add some dot products in, though.
21:58:24 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, so they have such pointless things as that, yet not even cmult?
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21:58:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is this just some private software?
21:58:50 -!- yiyus has joined.
21:58:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, shame on you for not releasing it then.
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21:59:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what? are you taking up our time for something pointless that isn't esolangs
21:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I just can't see why it's overlooked like this in favour of ridiculously specific instructions.
21:59:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Also single-instruction CRC32.
22:00:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is really needed is adding some 256 bit SIMD registers
22:00:35 <Vorpal> unless they done that already
22:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Vector_Extensions
22:01:31 <fizzie> Yes, with the clever mnemonic YMMn; it's one more than X, after all.
22:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "Further extensions to 512 or 1024 bits are expected in the future"
22:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, they can ignore the quaternions, octonions and the sedenions as well.
22:02:33 <fizzie> Yeah, ZMMn for the 512-bit registers, but what will they call the next set?
22:03:03 <fizzie> ÅMMn, if they follow the usual Finnish alphabet order. Wow, that'd be the awesome.
22:03:14 <Vorpal> how does ipv6 autoconfig select ips
22:03:46 <Ilari> Hey, where did fungot go?
22:03:49 <pikhq> fizzie: Considering typical x86 naming conventions, RZMMn
22:04:27 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, they can ignore the quaternions, octonions and the sedenions as well. <-- um aren't they like rarely used these days?
22:04:35 <Vorpal> matrix stuff is what I would expect
22:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect the sedenions have never been used for anything.
22:05:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's IPv6-ICMP router-advertisement messages which gives the network prefix, and the low 64 bits are usually built from the MAC address.
22:05:13 <cpressey> fizzie: Supra-ASCII opcode mnemonics WOULD be awesome.
22:05:58 <pikhq> Perhaps to make things more confusing, 新MMn.
22:06:10 <cpressey> And: liberation for sedenions NOW!
22:07:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that explains it
22:07:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, how comes we haven't yet run out of MACs btw
22:09:38 <coppro> because they are buig
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22:15:35 <alise> Hilarious, but unpronounceable.
22:15:59 <alise> I do not think that name will be effective for the cat. :P
22:16:30 <alise> Maybe I'll call one Felix 2: Electric Boogaloo and the other Shaggy Dog.
22:17:03 <fizzie> It's not full 48 bits, or free-form either; the first octet has two flag bits, and the entire first half is the manufacturer ID, leaving just 2^24 = 16M devices with any one ID.
22:17:32 <alise> fizzie: Brief context?
22:17:56 <alise> 1 Infinity Loop, Cupertino, CA.
22:18:14 <coppro> fizzie: but two different manufacturers could issue machines with the same "ID"
22:18:21 <coppro> and their addresses would be different
22:19:02 <fizzie> Sure, but it still means each different manufacturer will eat 2^24 device IDs, even if they only make a few. (Okay, so you won't get an organization ID if you only make a few, but *still*...)
22:19:17 <Vorpal> alise, speaking of cat, I implemented the (to my knowledge) first POSIX cat in an esolang.
22:19:27 <Vorpal> alise, save for -u which can't be done in befunge
22:19:37 <alise> Vorpal: How utterly exciting.
22:19:44 <alise> I have always wanted to see that.
22:19:51 <fizzie> (Incidentally, 3Com already has 41 organizational identifiers.)
22:20:27 <Vorpal> alise, it is also the first befunge program with a GPL header that I know of. And I did that only because it was a first. Otherwise I would have done BSD probably.
22:20:28 <alise> Yes, but you're not quite as exciting as AnMaster!
22:20:39 <alise> Vorpal: Oh wow, I can barely contain how amazing this is.
22:20:43 <Vorpal> alise, Phantom_Hoover's claim is not backed up by any evidence :P
22:20:47 <alise> Please have my fposix_babies.
22:20:58 <Vorpal> oh yeah forgot you hate posix
22:21:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I posted the damn interpreter and program online"
22:21:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, only after I did it
22:21:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is what you say, and it is a HQ9+ish language
22:21:53 <Vorpal> as it is, it can only do cat
22:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> GreaseMonkey, http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Phantom_Hoover
22:22:30 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, as for mine: http://sprunge.us/UcYL
22:23:26 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, well yes, I couldn't parse arguments or do file IO without that
22:23:37 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I don't know any other esolang which allows that
22:24:02 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, actually b98 + FILE would have been enough, but STRN makes thing less painful
22:24:06 <alise> Vorpal: Do you realise that your accomplishment is an utterly pointless waste of time; a trivial, uninteresting program that proves and demonstrates nothing written in a language already known to have decent support for this kind of stuff, such that your only accomplishment is arranging commands in a two-dimensional grid, which you have not even done, as it fails to even look aesthetically pleasing? Also, you misspelled "triple".
22:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, do I look like I care about your opinion
22:24:43 <Vorpal> thanks for the comment correction however
22:24:50 <alise> Vorpal: You did when you excitedly told me all about it.
22:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the words "pointless" and "waste of time" are not to be uttered on this channel.
22:25:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Look, look, I wrote cat in a language that's just like Befunge but it has an if loop instead of a while loop!
22:25:30 <alise> There's a reason this channel is #esoteric, not #pointless. That reason is that esoteric things are pointless /and/ interesting.
22:25:44 <Vorpal> alise woke up on wrong side of the bed (might be Swedish only idiom, not sure)
22:26:00 <GreaseMonkey> <Vorpal> alise woke up on wrong side of the bed (might be Swedish only idiom, not sure) <-- wow, we have that idiom too
22:26:03 <ais523> alise: Befunge has while loops?
22:26:05 <Vorpal> alise, so you don't find it interesting, who cares
22:26:12 <alise> ais523: Erm, I meant brainfuck.
22:26:14 <ais523> sure, it has loops in general, but if and while aren't separate constructs
22:26:22 <ais523> and in BF, that would be impressive
22:26:26 <alise> Vorpal: You seemed to care enough to bug me about it; the only point of this could be to generate a positive response from me
22:26:29 <Vorpal> ais523, no, I wrote the pseudo code for it with goto
22:26:31 <ais523> given that an if-version of BF would be impossible to loop in
22:26:34 <ais523> Vorpal: that's cheating
22:26:43 <alise> So, you care about my opinion, as long as it coincides with yours, thus boosting your already overinflated sense of ego due to writing this program.
22:26:48 <Vorpal> ais523, writing pseudo code first is not cheating
22:27:07 <Vorpal> ais523, it was just a way to figure out the best way to do it in befunge
22:27:19 <ais523> oh, I mean you can't add GOTO to BF and still call it the same lang
22:27:19 <Vorpal> specifically the argument parsing
22:27:27 <Vorpal> ais523, I talked about befunge
22:27:30 <Sgeo> Oh, alise is awake
22:27:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: really? without command-line args, you can cat everything, including NUL, if you have more than 8 bits and EOF=-1
22:27:46 <alise> Sgeo: I've always been awake. You know, the unit and all.
22:27:51 <Vorpal> ais523, and yes you can add it to befunge. It is called SUBR
22:28:58 <cpressey> Wait, I just looked at the source now. This so-called POSIX-compliant cat is only "mostly POSIX-conforming". What?
22:29:22 <cpressey> What's the point of "mostly" conforming to a standard?
22:29:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, because of -u
22:29:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, read list at end of source
22:29:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, those are limitations of befunge-98
22:29:47 <Vorpal> nothing I can do about them
22:29:58 <cpressey> Vorpal: So your cat *isn't* POSIX compliant.
22:30:05 <alise> Yay! You wrote a program whose only point is to confirm to an authorityless standard, and didn't even manage to do that.
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22:30:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, it is as far as it is possible
22:30:23 <leBMD> Greetings, programmers of the esoteric variety.
22:30:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, and -u would depend on value returned by y
22:30:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, for the flags
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22:30:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, if you want the other value change implementation ;P
22:30:53 <Vorpal> I could add a check that errors out of the buffering is wrong
22:30:55 <cpressey> Vorpal: There are probably hundreds of implementations of 'cat' in esolangs that are "as POSIX-compliant as possible" for the languages they're done in.
22:31:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, then you can say this is the most posix compliant one
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22:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I think you'll find mine is POSIX-complianter.
22:32:08 <leBMD> What language are you talking about?
22:32:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah that you released after
22:32:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you are just being silly
22:32:23 * Sgeo finished depict
22:32:30 <Sgeo> with some spoilers >.>
22:32:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, and the first one in befunge-98 that is as posix compliant as possible
22:32:39 <alise> POSIX-compliant cat in Brainfuck: ,[.,]
22:32:46 <alise> It's as compliant as possible, because Brainfuck can't read files.
22:33:04 <leBMD> I'm workign on a text adventure in it, and gosh it takes a bit to type out the parsing routine
22:33:36 <Vorpal> leBMD, the mostly posix cat is at http://sprunge.us/UcYL
22:33:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, btw not even gnu cat implements -u
22:33:50 <leBMD> I've got it to read N, n, S, s, E, e, W and w, but I can't quite figure out how to do strings.
22:33:54 <Vorpal> no cat I found on any of my systems does it
22:34:02 <leBMD> and I mean string input, not output.
22:34:06 <Vorpal> cpressey, and the argument parsing is of no practical significance
22:34:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, since the null string is not a valid filename
22:34:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, thus in practise it makes no difference
22:34:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Write bytes from the input file to the standard output without delay as each is read. "
22:34:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes 1p says that
22:35:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I checked GNU, FreeBSD and NetBSD cat's
22:35:09 <Sgeo> PSOX could always help...
22:35:17 <fizzie> leBMD: The easy way is to just use STRN fingerprint functions.
22:35:44 <leBMD> I've been doing character input
22:35:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, it can't turn line buffered IO into unbuffered IO
22:36:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, cat -u file vs. cat file: what is the difference?
22:36:14 <leBMD> hm, maybe I don't know as much about 98 as I thought.
22:36:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think it is unbuffered on both stdin and stdout for -u
22:36:47 <Vorpal> I could add a fingerprint which did it of course :P
22:37:16 <Vorpal> leBMD, implemented a 98 interpreter yet? I found that is the best way to learn the language
22:37:35 <fizzie> leBMD: There are these fingerprints you can load with (; they define commands for uppercase letters. STRN has line-based string input and output. But it's completely possible to do without, of course, especially if you need that little input.
22:37:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, *shrug*
22:38:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, find me a modern cat which does. MAAAYBE solaris is my guess. Of course you could dig up an old one which did
22:38:26 <leBMD> Okay, I maight do that.
22:38:34 <Vorpal> leBMD, that is a lot of work however
22:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, in any case, on a fully POSIX-compliant system, my cat program is POSIX compliant.
22:38:49 <Vorpal> leBMD, I wrote cfunge. Took me... over a year I think.
22:38:57 <Vorpal> leBMD, with all the fingerprints I support
22:39:03 <Vorpal> not continuous of course
22:39:04 <alise> leBMD: BTW, CCBI 2 is better.
22:39:05 <leBMD> for general directions, I've just been copying and subtracting UTF-32 numbers for the characters, and then doing a _ or |
22:39:09 <alise> (Someone's gotta evangelise.)
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22:39:20 <leBMD> I've been using ccbi
22:39:22 <Vorpal> alise, no evangelising please :P
22:39:35 <Vorpal> also I never claimed ccbi2 was bad
22:39:42 <alise> Vorpal: You're evangelising.
22:39:49 <alise> You're just being more subtle about it.
22:40:04 <Vorpal> alise, I said implementing befunge98 was a great way to learn it
22:40:12 <Vorpal> and that when I wrote mine, cfunge, it took x time
22:40:12 <alise> Yes, you are, you wanted leBMD to recognise your achievement in creating cfunge.
22:40:21 <Vorpal> alise, you are paranoid
22:40:46 <Vorpal> you see evangelists around every corner
22:40:47 <alise> It's not paranoia. Even if I'm wrong it's definitely not paranoia.
22:40:53 <Vorpal> alise, yeah since I'm paranoid, that says a LOT
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22:40:53 <alise> That isn't what paranoia is.
22:41:07 <Vorpal> alise, sure it is, not the tinfoil variant, true
22:41:13 <Vorpal> but paranoia for evangelists
22:41:22 <alise> Please look up "paranoia". Thanks.
22:41:44 <Vorpal> sigh.... why are you so annoying today?
22:41:47 <cpressey> leBMD: It's impossible to learn *funge-98 fully, if you include extensions, because there's no limit to them.
22:42:01 <Vorpal> stop trolling, and yes you are. Quite subtle
22:42:15 <leBMD> I've just been using plain ol' funge, without extensions.
22:42:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, true. When using JSTR I needed to look up the argument order
22:42:44 <alise> Vorpal: If I called you paranoid, would you even understand what irony is?
22:42:54 <alise> It's an important first step on the road to recognising the irony in situations.
22:43:00 <Vorpal> alise, those are not connected
22:43:08 <Vorpal> alise, and I fully admit I'm paranoid
22:43:13 <Vorpal> I never claimed anything else
22:43:26 <alise> Interesting. So paranoia is a reason to dismiss me, but not a reason to dismiss you?
22:43:47 <leBMD> You know, arguments on the internet are like the special olympics.
22:43:49 <alise> I would, but, you know, it's kind of fun.
22:44:05 <Vorpal> alise, if I call you paranoid it says a lot, since I'm paranoid as well.
22:44:12 <Phantom_Hoover> This channel is not for you to amuse yourself by arguing.
22:44:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and no it isn't fun
22:44:33 <Vorpal> actually *puts alise on special list of client*
22:44:39 <alise> Vorpal: You haven't answered my question, only avoided it.
22:44:49 <Vorpal> there, no more messages from alise
22:44:51 <alise> I wonder if he realises that I like him not responding to my messages.
22:45:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes do not feed the trolls and so on
22:45:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not always that easy
22:45:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, shut up, do not feed the troll ;P
22:45:48 <leBMD> CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.
22:46:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because it's fun to eke out new pieces of hilarious stupidity from him.
22:46:34 <alise> They flow with ease if you know how.
22:47:10 <leBMD> I wonder if it's possible to make a roguelike in funge, complete with proceedurally-generated map...
22:47:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's for SERIOUS BUSINESS.
22:47:36 <ais523> leBMD: same with any TC language
22:47:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But that's less fun, because you don't get the odd other person adding a sarcastic slight against AnMaster without him noticing.
22:47:50 <ais523> if you mean "would it be particularly difficult in Befunge", I don't think so
22:48:00 <alise> (Not that I'm naming names. Phantom_Hoover. leBMD. Uh, I guess I'm naming names now. fungot. EgoBot.)
22:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, well, you'd probably have a few problems with curses, for the reasons Vorpal stated above.
22:48:07 <leBMD> I wonder how you would go about reprinting the map with each new movement.
22:48:18 <alise> cfunge rejects any program containing the sequences "fuck" or "shit"
22:48:24 <alise> this can be problematic
22:48:31 <alise> Okay, that was lame.
22:48:57 <leBMD> but how would I go about displaying the difference in character position?
22:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, you have the stuff to go on the screen in memory.
22:49:30 <leBMD> maybe I could have it check for @, and the if you say, hit "h" then it would locate @, replace it with . and print @ to the left.
22:49:32 <fizzie> You could also manually output widely-enough-supported cursor control codes.
22:49:47 <Phantom_Hoover> When something changes, alter the buffer, then print it all to the terminal.
22:49:52 <alise> leBMD: presumably it would maintain the state internally
22:49:59 <alise> then handle displaying it separately
22:50:47 <leBMD> maybe it would save the map to a file, and then display it with you in the spawn point, and then go on a sort of grid-system to figure out how to change the display.
22:50:55 <leBMD> Boy, this sounds like a lot of work.
22:51:03 <alise> Befunge has memory, you know.
22:51:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not *that* ideal...
22:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Just demarcate a section of fungespace for the screen buffer, then print it
22:51:32 <leBMD> but, wouldn't it be a little rought workign with the map on the stack?
22:51:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, perhaps.
22:51:44 <alise> leBMD: So put it at a position instead.
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22:52:10 <leBMD> gah, I feel like a noob. Are you talking about printing the map onto the source?
22:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, in Befunge, the code space is readable and writable.
22:52:50 <leBMD> I've just never made it self-alter before, so I don't know it's full potential.
22:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can just have an 80x24 rectangle somewhere, and then write to that.
22:53:06 <alise> leBMD: look at the p/g instructions
22:53:14 <alise> http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
22:54:52 <leBMD> And this is where I'm more familiar with 93. When it says "relative to the storage offset" what does that mean?
22:54:57 <Phantom_Hoover> You could even put the screen buffer so that a runtime display of fungespace would be the IO in itself.
22:55:29 <cpressey> leBMD: You can just ignore that part to start.
22:55:44 <cpressey> leBMD: The idea is that p and g work like they do in 93.
22:56:14 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Fight with Vorpal in a PM if you want to, <-- nah, I ignored all, not just channel
22:56:29 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, well, you'd probably have a few problems with curses, for the reasons Vorpal stated above. <-- NCRS?
22:56:52 <Vorpal> leBMD, using the NCRS fingerprint you have basic curses
22:57:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, NCURses
22:57:21 <Vorpal> pretty sure ccbi supports it too
22:57:36 <FireFly> Guess the language: (![]+[])[+[]]+([][![]]+[])[+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(!![]+[])[+!![]]+(!![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(+!![]/+[]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]
22:57:43 <fizzie> If it's NCRS, how can it be "NCURses"?
22:58:07 <alise> Because Befunge-110 introduces NCUR, the new, revised edition of NCRS!
22:58:20 <alise> Brought to you by CCBI Enterprises.
22:58:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, those both works
22:58:28 <alise> cfunge Enterprises.
22:59:02 <Ilari> Heh: Current estimated "IPv4 doomsday": 31st May 2011 (285 days from now).
22:59:02 <leBMD> >> it's been too long since I used vim.
22:59:15 <alise> That is the name of the language.
22:59:17 <Ilari> ~224635k addresses left.
22:59:23 <FireFly> js> (![]+[])[+[]]+([][![]]+[])[+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(!![]+[])[+!![]]+(!![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(+!![]/+[]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]
22:59:31 <alise> Ilari: Those sure are being used up quickly.
22:59:36 <Vorpal> FireFly, how does that work
22:59:57 <alise> because ![] = false
22:59:58 <Vorpal> <Ilari> ~224635k addresses left. <-- that *sounds* like a lot
22:59:59 <alise> + coerces to number
23:00:03 <FireFly> It uses implicit casting from empty arrays to booleans, and then from booleans to integers (by adding booleans together)
23:00:08 <FireFly> and then index strings like "undefined" and "false"
23:00:11 <alise> [] = as boolean = true = as number = 1
23:00:28 <FireFly> ![]+[] is the string "false"
23:00:39 <alise> FireFly: Very impressive.
23:00:51 <Vorpal> FireFly, 1-based index?
23:01:00 <alise> No, +[] = 0, presumably.
23:01:03 * Sgeo WTFs at Javascript
23:01:21 <Sgeo> It has to be an esolang, right?
23:01:32 <Sgeo> Not used in the real world?
23:01:35 <Vorpal> FireFly, so what about letters not in "undefined", "false" or "true"
23:01:40 <ais523> JavaScript's actually a pretty nice language
23:01:41 <alise> JavaScript has some niceness; it's quite Schemey.
23:01:49 <alise> But the coercion rules are insanity.
23:01:54 <Vorpal> FireFly, what about the letter v
23:01:55 <ais523> I think in pretty much any nice language, you're going to get ridiculounessness like that too
23:01:57 <FireFly> And you can do "[Object object]" if you cheat and use {}
23:02:12 <FireFly> Can't think of a way to get v, I think
23:02:13 <Sgeo> Name some ridiculousness in Scheme or Smalltalk
23:02:13 <Ilari> That date is presumably when IANA runs down to 5 unassigned /8s and proceeds to assign one of them to each of the five RIRs.
23:02:21 <Vorpal> FireFly, aww, can't spell my nick then
23:02:29 <Vorpal> FireFly, can't you just add the char code?
23:02:34 <alise> Sgeo: the interaction of CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION and UNWIND-PROTECT.
23:02:34 <Ilari> And then IANA is out of unassigned address blocks.
23:02:40 <FireFly> Well, you'd have to use String.fromCharCode then
23:02:42 <Sgeo> unwind-protect?
23:02:47 <FireFly> And that wouldn't look as nice :P
23:02:56 <alise> Sgeo: If you ask that question, you're not competent enough in Scheme to implicitly claim its perfection. :p
23:02:59 <ais523> Ilari: assigning 1/8 was really a wake-up call for the world
23:03:03 <ais523> but they just went back to sleep again
23:03:06 <Sgeo> I think I can guess
23:03:15 <alise> Sgeo: You probably guess wrong.
23:03:17 <FireFly> Vorpal, there's probably plenty of strings one can use, that I haven't thought about
23:03:29 <alise> Sgeo: Also, "map" can either be safe to use with CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION, or tail recursive.
23:03:31 <Sgeo> alise, something vaguely akin to try/catch, or Smalltalk's ensure?
23:03:58 <alise> Sgeo: But actually, it can technically be both; it just can't only do one iteration through the list.
23:04:03 <Vorpal> ais523, there is one isp in Sweden which provides native ipv6 according to SixXS. It is aimed at large company offices only
23:04:13 <alise> SISC's developer refers to this as "Tail-recursive, resistant to call/cc interference, O(1*n); pick two."
23:04:27 <alise> SISC picks the first two because it's a correctness nazi.
23:04:51 <Vorpal> ais523, I have a sixxs tunnel of course
23:04:51 <ais523> alise: couldn't you determine statically whether call/cc could interfere, or not?
23:04:55 <Vorpal> using it for freenode atm
23:05:00 <ais523> and optimise based on that
23:05:03 <alise> <Sgeo> alise, something vaguely akin to try/catch, or Smalltalk's ensure? ;; "Vaguely"; but it's much more complicated.
23:05:18 <ais523> Vorpal: IIRC, the person in charge of sixxs considers using an IPv6 tunnel for IRC to be unethical, or illegal, or something
23:05:23 <ais523> nobody really understands why
23:05:28 <alise> ais523: Perhaps. It'd never be 100% effective -- EVAL -- and it'd still fail on one of them in the worst case.
23:05:32 <Vorpal> ais523, sounds like whole-program optimisation would be useful there (wrt call/cc)
23:05:34 <cpressey> ais523: Static analysis? In Scheme? Surely you jest.
23:05:38 <alise> ais523: Besides, nobody uses the call/cc interaction, usually.
23:05:47 <alise> As far as I know its use is confined almost entirely to test suites.
23:05:57 <ais523> cpressey: well, you can statically-analyse everything to some extent
23:06:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: complicated.
23:06:08 <cpressey> ais523: Yeah, I'm not totally serious.
23:06:10 <Vorpal> ais523, he considers it for the sake of getting fancy rdns to be silly
23:06:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: read the spec; I don't know it off by heart because it's complicated.
23:06:11 <Sgeo> Are there any Lisps with decent standard libraries?
23:06:19 <ais523> Vorpal: ah, that makes more sense
23:06:26 <cpressey> ais523: Sort of referring to my "oh no it's dynamically scoped" lament from earlier.
23:06:26 <Sgeo> I don't want to have to do Scheme/PSOX
23:06:32 <Vorpal> ais523, and one or two POPs limit it
23:06:33 <alise> (Yes, but you don't want to use them.)
23:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, does it entail weirdness when you call/cc inside map?
23:07:02 <alise> Sorry; it's DYNAMIC-WIND in Scheme.
23:07:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not DYNAMIC-WIND
23:07:14 <Vorpal> ais523, and host can't apply here, I have a cloak, and even without it, *@<blah blah>.se.sixxs.net is not very fancy
23:07:16 <alise> That's a separate issue.
23:07:27 <Vorpal> where <blah blah> is a bit I cut out due to being paranoid :P
23:07:55 <alise> Vorpal's computers are so insecure that he refuses to even reveal his IP address.
23:08:02 <leBMD> who here uses vim to edit in befunge?
23:08:13 <Vorpal> ais523, the faq on irc is at http://www.sixxs.net/faq/misc/?faq=irc
23:08:19 <Vorpal> ais523, if you are interested, check it
23:08:20 <alise> leBMD: I think Deewiant, author of CCBI, uses vim.
23:08:29 <Vorpal> ais523, go log read to find the url
23:08:37 <ais523> Emacs picture-mode is nice for Befunge
23:08:40 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't particularly care
23:08:42 <Vorpal> leBMD, I recommend emacs with picture-mode, that way you can write in all cardinal directions
23:08:50 <leBMD> I'm trying to remember the :command that allows me to move my cursor freely
23:08:50 <ais523> why do people seem to assume that everyone cares about all their links?
23:08:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "(display "Map is call/cc safe, but probably not tail recursive or inefficient.")"
23:09:09 <leBMD> I tried M-x-picturemode, but it didn't let me write >.
23:09:10 <Vorpal> ais523, well you were discussing it :P
23:09:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but probably (not tail recursive) or inefficient
23:09:28 <coppro> ais523: do you filter all messages containing links?
23:09:28 <cpressey> We don't have a Scheme interpreter here?
23:09:33 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:09:34 <alise> cpressey: But which one to pick? :P
23:09:39 <alise> cpressey: Clearly it should be OkloScheme.
23:09:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, it MIGHT just be sluggish
23:09:44 <leBMD> like, I would put in ">" and it wouldn't put it on the file.
23:09:54 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
23:09:56 <ais523> alise: have you not made Ponzi Scheme yet?
23:10:05 <ais523> leBMD: that seems weird
23:10:07 <Gregor-W> Is everyone having a nice, olboxy day today?
23:10:08 <alise> ais523: no, I'm not sure I even will
23:10:13 <ais523> are you sure you aren't using crazy keybindings?
23:10:13 <Vorpal> !befunge98 http://sprunge.us/UcYL UcYL
23:10:21 <alise> cpressey: Name is taken.
23:10:23 <alise> coppro: Name is taken.
23:10:23 <Vorpal> iirc it does download urls
23:10:25 <cpressey> ais523: That was an oerjan-worthy pun.
23:10:30 <Vorpal> guess it saves it to different filename
23:10:31 <alise> cpressey: It's also my pun.
23:10:35 <ais523> cpressey: it's alise's pun, not mine
23:10:37 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:10:44 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:10:48 <cpressey> ais523, alise: OWNERSHIP OF PUN DULY NOTED
23:11:08 <alise> cpressey: It's a Knuth-style process; I thought of the name "Ponzi Scheme", then decided I had better write The Perfect Scheme and call it that.
23:11:41 <coppro> alise: fair enough. But I need it, so you better deliver.
23:11:47 <cpressey> alise: Name Comes First. It's the Only Way.
23:11:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, well since plt-scheme → racket... *shrug*
23:11:49 <fizzie> SixXS folks are also sometimes very bizarre; I have a friend who did some IPv6 userspace routing stuff as his master's thesis, and in the evaluation of that had a tunnel; for the crime of making a sixxs-compatible tunnel client he got his account and forum-discussions deleted.
23:12:00 <alise> coppro: Okay. First, you give me a lot of money.
23:12:04 <fizzie> See http://www.sixxs.info/ for sordid details.
23:13:03 <alise> Vorpal's gods; they disapparate.
23:13:04 <fizzie> There were some other similar stories; can't locate them right now.
23:13:19 <leBMD> hm, I forgot. How do I change which direction I'm typign in in picture-mode?
23:15:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:19:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: In the interests of full disclosure, his "conflict" was mostly with one of the two SixXS founders; on the other hand, he did get a friendly and appropriate email conversation going on with the other founder; and I personally remember that one as an easygoing guy from the ipng.nl (SixXS predecessor) times, so... Still, bizarroids.
23:21:08 -!- leBMD has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:22:06 <fizzie> Here's another bit: http://www.habets.pp.se/sixxs.net-sucks.php
23:23:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, that user is a bit whiny in the original email. Oh and with dynamic tunnels you can't lose points
23:24:19 <fizzie> And "kill the user account with a 'stop whining'" message is an appropriate response?
23:24:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I can't find any other tunnel in Sweden that provides a /64 or larger
23:25:05 <Vorpal> so no good alternatives for me
23:25:11 <fizzie> Oh, there are no alternatives, that's true.
23:25:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:25:19 <fizzie> There's another hate-page at http://en.linuxreviews.org/SixXS -- of course there's huge bias in this sort of stuff, but still, it's a bit disconcerting that they have so many of 'em.
23:25:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, freenet6? well I tried it, lag was horrible. Wrote that in sixxs application iirc
23:25:39 <alise> "politically correct".
23:25:45 <alise> Don't they mean incorrect?
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23:28:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder if my phone supports ipv6 btw... hm
23:28:23 <Vorpal> well I know it gets ipv4 normally
23:28:29 <FireFly> Vorpal, actually, after some talking in ##javascript, there seems to be a way to get v
23:28:35 <Vorpal> FireFly, and what is that?
23:28:48 <fizzie> The stock N900 kernel doesn't have IPv6 enabled, but of course you can stick in a new one.
23:28:51 <FireFly> Build the word "filter", index an array with it, and then the output would be:
23:29:00 -!- leBMD has joined.
23:29:01 <FireFly> From there you can fetch v
23:29:08 <pikhq> Why in the world would anyone make a device that doesn't support IPv6?
23:29:11 <Vorpal> FireFly, why filter, why not just f?
23:29:25 <Vorpal> oh it won't be native code then
23:29:26 <FireFly> Vorpal, filter is a standard function in JS
23:29:34 <pikhq> I mean, IPv4 has 2 years left, tops.
23:29:37 <Vorpal> FireFly, so, can you spell my nick with it then?
23:30:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, ... you are joking right? My phone is about 2 years old
23:30:06 <Vorpal> and not state of the art
23:30:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but IPv4 is moribund technology.
23:30:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, did that stop anyone from not supporting it?
23:30:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, look at the internet today
23:30:51 <Vorpal> I don't think my router supports ipv6
23:30:51 <FireFly> " ()-INO[]abcdefijlnorstuvy{}"
23:31:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, I mean: IPv4 will be *unusuable* in 2 years, tops.
23:31:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, so yay lets make ipv4 and then sell another in 2 years
23:31:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, there is a reason for ipv4-only
23:32:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, do you have native ipv6 yet?
23:32:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, because ISPs are fucking idiots who seem to fail to realise that *their service will break* unless they do a complete switch to IPv6 starting two years ago.
23:33:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, it's all so tragic
23:33:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, what will happen I wonder
23:33:30 <Vorpal> everything will obviously break yes
23:33:43 <leBMD> ok, so right now I'm putting a roguelike on the table. Do you guys have any suggestions for good beginner *funge-98 practice?
23:33:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, I believe we will have some interesting times ahead
23:34:02 <pikhq> We will start seeing hosts that cannot be accessed on IPv4. Starting not long after the IPv4 IANA allocations are finished.
23:34:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm sure people will sue about this in US
23:34:11 <Vorpal> it is only to be expected
23:34:30 <cpressey> leBMD: Practice for a roguelike? How about Sokoban?
23:35:00 <pikhq> As it is, yeah, it will be a rough transition.
23:35:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh, not as practise for the rouge like
23:35:11 <Vorpal> but in befunge98 coding
23:35:21 <pikhq> Because by the time IPv4 allocations become impossible, we won't be on IPv6.
23:35:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, my old OS9 box only does ipv4
23:36:01 <Vorpal> oh well, will still work on LAN
23:36:12 <Vorpal> and that is all it really needs
23:36:25 <cpressey> Vorpal: More that if you implement Sokoban, you've done a lot of the groundwork for writing a (presumably more complex) roguelike. Wasn't totally certain if that was what leBMD was asking.
23:37:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, and also you would have the sokoban levels from nethack within easy reach
23:37:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, easy in a modular language like befunge ;)
23:37:21 <leBMD> how about something slightly easier than sokoban. I'm still trying to wrap my head around getting something on the screen to "move".
23:37:37 <Vorpal> leBMD, use the NCRS fingerprint
23:37:46 <leBMD> though that is an idea for future things.
23:37:49 <Vorpal> leBMD, then gotoxy thingy to overwrite old thing with space
23:37:53 <Vorpal> and write the new one elsewhere
23:37:58 <Vorpal> leBMD, that is how you move something
23:38:32 <leBMD> I'll see about his fingerprint, though I've never used fingerprints before. Is there a list of commands for it?
23:38:58 <Ilari> Ok... X server limited to 100GB VM space...
23:40:12 <Vorpal> leBMD, hm let me locate NCRS docs
23:40:21 <leBMD> that would be nice.
23:40:34 <leBMD> right now I'm checking the specs to see how to load a fingerprint.
23:40:45 <Vorpal> leBMD, it used to be at http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/myexts.txt
23:41:06 <alise> pikhq: Hey, do you know if Quod Libet has a boost-volume plugin?
23:41:15 <pikhq> alise: No, I don't know.
23:41:30 <Vorpal> leBMD, not in web archive
23:42:09 <Ilari> Normal process VM size limit (set by processor) is either 128TiB or 256TiB...
23:42:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:43:08 <Vorpal> leBMD, found a local copy
23:43:23 <Vorpal> leBMD, this defines JSTR SGNL and NCRS http://sprunge.us/AQBP
23:43:30 <Vorpal> leBMD, don't know who implements SGNL
23:43:31 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:44:18 <Ilari> Vorpal: The 100GB limit is to prevent X server from using too much VM space...
23:44:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, yes... but 100 GB is insanely large
23:44:38 <leBMD> woah, I just saw a picture of a program made using TURT, and I had no idea that you could have graphic output!
23:44:43 <Ilari> Vorpal: This machine has only 56GB total RAM+Swap available.
23:44:51 <Vorpal> Ilari, wow, I want that
23:44:55 <Vorpal> Ilari, how much of it is RAM?
23:45:05 <Vorpal> Ilari, you have that much SWAP!?
23:45:08 <alise> Ilari: Upgraded, huh?
23:45:28 <Vorpal> leBMD, if it was the TURT quine, it is buggy
23:45:49 <leBMD> but it does graphics!
23:45:58 <Vorpal> leBMD, it assumes you do not implement that lowering and raising the pen leaves a dot
23:46:17 <leBMD> Here I was thinking that most all esoteric languages only did terminal.
23:46:23 <Vorpal> leBMD, cfunge, efunge and ccbi1 outputs TURT to .svg, no idea what ccbi2 does
23:46:31 <Ilari> alise: A while ago...
23:46:32 <Vorpal> leBMD, there are many, piet for example
23:46:42 <Vorpal> leBMD, that uses an image as input
23:46:50 <Vorpal> leBMD, there are some which do image output too
23:46:56 <Vorpal> isn't there a 3D one too
23:47:27 <leBMD> I know that piet does INPUT of images, I made a forum for it. :P
23:47:43 <leBMD> I just didn't know that there was a language which allowed for output.
23:48:35 <Ilari> alise: There are messages to this channel referring to this machine already in April...
23:49:28 <alise> Ilari: Well, you don't talk much.
23:49:38 <alise> Ilari: Bit of a major upgrade from your previous box, though. :P
23:50:12 <Ilari> I got one with 8GB ram because RAM will become bottleneck first and I don't want to upgrade again very soon...
23:51:21 -!- nooga has joined.
23:51:31 <Ilari> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 860 @ 2.80GHz
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23:56:14 <alise> I ought to get around to upgrading my setup, too.
23:56:22 <alise> I know what to get, at least, since I've made component lists for others.
23:58:53 <leBMD> when a fingerprint needs conditions such as cursor position, it takes the arguments off the stack, right?