00:02:16 <alise> I guess I'm 15 now, huh.
00:03:37 <Vorpal> alise, much nostalgia yet?
00:03:46 <Vorpal> or I guess that will take a few more years
00:05:26 <alise> Vorpal: I've had nostalgia since I was, what, 10.
00:05:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, wait, you are younger than me
00:05:33 <alise> Mostly for things I /wasn't alive for/.
00:05:40 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, but when Phantom_Hoover_'s older than you, he'll KICK YOUR ASS
00:06:08 <Vorpal> alise, hm... relativity right?
00:06:17 <alise> See, when Phantom_Hoover_ grows up, he'll be older than you.
00:06:20 <alise> Then he'll kick your ass.
00:06:44 <Vorpal> alise, you forgot I age too, so this only works by relativity
00:07:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, yes but I was writing my line while you said that
00:07:30 <Vorpal> didn't see it until after
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00:07:51 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, you forgot I age too, so this only works by relativity
00:08:00 <alise> I say, I say, that's a joke, son.
00:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, yes, his sense of humour goes through nonexistent and approaches existence from the other side.
00:08:27 <Vorpal> alise, yes but #esoteric is all about taking jokes seriously, iirc ais said so
00:08:32 <Vorpal> and he is an AUTHORITY
00:08:45 <alise> that wasn't meant as a defence of you, dude.
00:08:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: But only approaches.
00:09:12 <Vorpal> alise, maybe, but I can use it as one
00:09:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> I could put him in a Buissard ramjet and fire it somewhere, but that'd take too long to slow down.
00:10:33 <alise> Does he actually have to get back?
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00:11:34 <alise> Kick a piece of air. One day, the particles will reach him, and kick his ass.
00:11:40 <alise> Plus, we can get rid of him!
00:12:09 <Vorpal> alternative: hire Chuck Norris. Except chuck Norris can't be hired for money.
00:12:29 <alise> Chuck Norris is a fuckwit.
00:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Chuck Norris roundhouse kicking you in the face would send you back in time.
00:12:44 <alise> Seen that video where he talks about bible-based education shit?
00:12:57 <Vorpal> btw, rule 34 on Chuck Norris.
00:13:25 <Vorpal> hm on second thought, no indeed
00:13:44 <Vorpal> okay then... rule 34 on Feynman diagrams and/or Feynman?
00:14:00 <alise> i'd totally go gay for feynman
00:14:11 <alise> http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=isch:1&sa=1&q=richard+feynman+porn&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
00:14:16 <alise> the world is not evil enough to create it
00:14:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yeah, but you'd need Chuck Norris to roundhouse kick you in the face to send you back in time to see him.
00:15:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> And then he would have to roundhouse kick you in the face in the past, as well, to make your go forward/
00:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> At which point you'd look like you could be spread on toast.
00:16:39 <alise> Sgeo: dreamviews is so boring
00:16:48 <alise> i like ld4all, it's fun just separating the legitimate, useful content from the mystical crap
00:16:54 <alise> gotta have some entertainment right?
00:17:03 <alise> their website design used to be hilarious, you had to hover over an arrow picture to scroll
00:17:36 <alise> http://www.ld4all.com/guide.html still does! but you can scroll manually it seems
00:17:57 <alise> and it isn't hovering, it's clicking and holding
00:18:07 <Vorpal> alise, is safe search off?
00:19:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: there's one or two new agey forums and some of the members are kooky like that but the actual site is useful :P
00:19:10 <alise> and the forums are/were the biggest lucid dreaming forum when i knew them
00:19:18 <alise> but yeah, it does have a tinge of that.
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00:24:54 <alise> Sgeo: what technique do you use to LD?
00:25:12 <alise> and my eyes flick around like REM, half-induced by me, and i start to get very relaxed, but i can never sustain it for long enough
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00:31:11 * Sgeo is way too tired
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00:44:49 <alise> Sgeo: you know, a verified, optimising C compiler has been written in coq
00:44:57 <alise> (similar performance to gcc3 -O1)
00:45:04 <alise> compiles to powerpc
00:45:08 <alise> written by the author of ocaml
00:45:27 <Sgeo> Great, now where's my instatiredbyegone machine?
00:45:46 <alise> Sgeo: quit complaining and go to fucking bed
00:46:36 <Sgeo> Can't go to bed early
00:48:15 <alise> pikhq: replaygain_track_gain = -17.67 dB
00:48:17 <alise> pikhq: is that a record? :D
00:48:26 <alise> same album, different track: +0.01 dB
00:48:48 <alise> (replaygain_album_gain = -10.95 dB)
00:49:05 <alise> track peaks are all 0.9... or 1 :P
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01:11:20 <alise> staload "foo.sats" // foo.sats is loaded and then opened into the current namespace
01:11:20 <alise> staload F "foo.sats" // to use identifiers qualified as $F.bar
01:11:20 <alise> dynload "foo.dats" // loaded dynamically at run-time
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01:19:35 <alise> http://ijpeffwa.friendsofsmash.co.uk/
01:19:36 <alise> The International Jurassic Park Erotic Fan-Fiction Writer's Association
01:39:39 <alise> "You can buy T-Rex and put him in your house! –
01:39:39 <alise> –...for PROFIT!" --qwantz page
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02:06:50 <zzo38> Now I wrote Deadfish interpreter in TeX.
02:07:04 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deadfish#TeX
02:09:02 <alise> A true milestone for humanity.
02:09:52 <alise> speaking of implementations, someone still ought to write a http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider compiler
02:09:56 <alise> bonus points if you compile the regexp to an automaton
02:10:34 <zzo38> The "esolangs.org" domain does not keep the login cookies?
02:10:52 <alise> It's the "official" one.
02:10:59 <alise> The voxelperfect alias is just the server, methinks.
02:11:07 <alise> Log in to esolangs.org and it'll work.
02:12:33 <zzo38> alise: It doesn't work when I try. When I do that, it redirects to the other domain and sets the cookie there anyways, so you cannot be logged in to "esolangs.org" domain unless you copy the cookie using a cookie management function.
02:13:02 <alise> Your browser is borken.
02:13:17 <alise> I just did it; not a single redirection.
02:15:32 <coppro> oh gawd the slowness pains
02:15:52 <coppro> alise: uploading my mail to the new server
02:16:03 <zzo38> If you have TeX, try the Deadfish TeX interpreter, and figure out how it works (if you know how to use TeX, you will probably be able to figure it out easily)
02:16:22 <coppro> progressing at about 1 Hz
02:16:22 <alise> coppro: why bother?
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02:16:25 <alise> just store it locally
02:16:35 <coppro> alise: then there's a disconinuity!
02:16:41 <alise> cpressey: i just turned 11 1/2, do i get a present?!!!
02:16:42 <cpressey> Yes, you should totally just store it locally.
02:17:02 <cpressey> Context, as I have mentioned before, is for losers.
02:17:21 <cpressey> alise: What signficance eleven point five?
02:18:07 <alise> cpressey: Actually, 15.
02:18:15 <alise> But, you know, same thing.
02:18:18 <cpressey> Oh. Well, happy birthday then!
02:18:35 <alise> Now where's my present?
02:19:35 <alise> Oh my god what have you done to this kitten
02:20:30 <cpressey> If you must know: mostly Ed Wood movies.
02:20:50 <alise> Dude, that can't explain the ... what is ...
02:21:32 <zzo38> Can we make a INTERCAL and Brainfuck combined?
02:23:05 <olsner> why dilute intercal with something more sane?
02:23:21 <alise> coppro: do not say yes
02:23:24 <alise> it will only encourage him!
02:23:48 <coppro> apparently my email upload should be done by 4PM tomorrow
02:25:02 <zzo38> cpressey: Not exactly what I meant, but I guess that is one way, to just put INTERCAL commands a brainfuck commands can be used together in one program
02:26:18 <zzo38> And then you can also combine codes of many other program languages, too
02:28:25 * alise wonders whether the fundamental features of an irc.IRCClient are its user credentials, or the server it's connecting to
02:29:39 <zzo38> I think the fundamental feature is connecting to the IRC server?
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02:30:07 <alise> i mean what should be in the constructor vs arguments to connect() :P
02:30:22 <zzo38> alise: What program language are you using?
02:30:53 <zzo38> I think it makes sense this way: connect(host,port[,nick,user,password,real])
02:30:54 <alise> Python, it sucks but makes this easy enough.
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02:31:06 <alise> zzo38: so you think it should just be "client = IRCClient()", with no arguments?
02:31:31 <zzo38> alise: O, you mean when creating the object.
02:31:57 <alise> e.g. client = IRCConnect(nick, user, pass, real); client.connect(host, port)
02:32:06 <alise> e.g. client = IRCClient(nick, user, pass, real); client.connect(host, port)
02:32:08 <zzo38> I suppose you can have the connect() function return itself so that you can do: IRCClient().connect(host,port)
02:32:11 <alise> client = IRCClient(host, port)
02:32:14 <alise> client.connect(nick, user, pass, real)
02:32:34 <zzo38> (I mean, connect() returns the IRCClient object)
02:33:31 <zzo38> So if you omit the nick,user,password,real, then it will not login, it will only connect and then you have to send the login command.
02:33:55 <zzo38> Actually better perhaps is to put password at the end, so that it can be omitted even if you do put in nick,user,real?
02:33:57 <alise> zzo38: it'll always take those, because it'll handle communicating with a nickname service thingybob to kick off any clients that may be using the name
02:34:07 <alise> (since the rest of my code is too lazy to handle that)
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02:37:38 <zzo38> Have you ever built a telephone?
02:38:32 <Sgeo> Disconnecting in a bit
02:39:26 <zzo38> I have a strange idea, which is adding a #catcode command into the C preprocessor
02:39:38 <Sgeo> Why not in 22min?
02:42:48 <zzo38> O, this hour has 22 minutes?
02:42:53 <zzo38> I thought this hour has 60 minutes?
02:43:04 <alise> coppro: timezone thing?
02:43:18 <alise> coppro: oh come on, elaborate
02:43:40 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Hour_Has_22_Minutes
02:43:43 <coppro> it's no fun if I tell you >:D... aw
02:43:48 <alise> i googled 22min = 1hr
02:43:50 <alise> but didn't get anything
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02:44:46 <alise> i didn't get <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Hour_Has_22_Minutes
02:45:02 * Sgeo didn't see that >.>
02:45:38 <Sgeo> That was in my google results when google corrected 22min to 22 min
02:46:12 <zzo38> In my browser I configure it to put "&nfpr=1" in a ":g" Google search
02:46:34 <alise> presumably "don't correct".
02:46:56 <zzo38> I don't know what the letters stand for, but it fixes one of the problems with Google search.
02:47:22 <alise> how hopelessly vague
02:48:01 <zzo38> Maybe there are other parameters I can also add on to fix it more
02:48:35 <zzo38> Do you know what other parameters there is?
02:49:57 <Sgeo> Actually, I only Googled after alise said he didn't get stuff, I think
02:50:04 <Sgeo> Or maybe my memory's mixed up
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02:50:14 <Sgeo> Well, at least I'm human then
02:53:34 <alise> zzo38: What does nfpr=1 do?
02:54:25 <Sgeo> Why is Chrome so painful when it comes to Reddit
02:55:40 <zzo38> alise: It turns off autocorrect
02:57:07 <alise> zzo38: Which is not neccessarily fixing.
02:58:04 <zzo38> It fixes Google partially
02:58:14 <alise> zzo38: Some of us like autocorrect.
02:58:22 <alise> Calling it a "fix" is a bit presumptious...
02:58:45 <coppro> does it still offer fixes?
02:58:57 <coppro> I despise the "oh, here's what you meant to search for"
02:59:30 <alise> i dislike it, but *eh*
02:59:34 <alise> some people don't :P
02:59:37 <alise> http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/aceecas-pda32-keeps-the-palmos-dream-alive/ people still release palmos devices!
03:00:29 <zzo38> Have you ever played ZZT game or made anything with ZZT? How much do you know about internal functioning of ZZT?
03:00:46 <alise> None, no, nothing.
03:02:04 <zzo38> The source-codes of ZZT has been apparently lost, that is why I am rewriting a reimplementation of ZZT in Enhanced CWEB and with SDL.
03:02:19 <zzo38> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZT
03:03:06 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
03:03:24 <zzo38> (There are other clones of ZZT as well, but mine is different than the other clones, it is intended to be closer to the original, as well as being a full document about everything in ZZT.
03:04:09 <alise> ZZT is still for sale through mail order, according to Sweeney in a Gamasutra interview[3].
03:04:29 <myndzi> but not the source code (?)
03:04:43 <zzo38> alise: Yes, it is, although they offer the registered versions for download as well, at no cost.
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03:05:54 <zzo38> myndzi: And apparently they lost the source-codes. It was originally written in Turbo Pascal. Mine is C. But I try to make it accurate as possible, I even downloaded a Turbo Pascal reference manual for this purpose!
03:06:47 <zzo38> alise: What are you refering to?
03:06:53 <alise> why get a turbo pascal manual?
03:07:49 <zzo38> For maximum accuracy.
03:08:05 <alise> if you don't have the source how can that help
03:08:15 <olsner> for writing the pascall decompiler, of course
03:10:39 <olsner> or just to get in the right mood and mindset
03:12:22 <alise> zzo38: actually, I think I'll include all the arguments in the constructor
03:12:46 <alise> client = IRCClient('irc.freenode.net', 6667, 'botte', 'botte', 'botte')
03:13:43 <alise> whyy doesn't irc ghost automatically
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03:20:04 <zzo38> I also entered strange commands into ZZT to see what happens, and then think of how it was programmed to make it to do that, I also entered strange data into the world files that it will load, and I made memory dumps of ZZT.
03:20:56 <zzo38> I also require the endianness to be correct. (SDL provides macros to check the endianness at compile time, so I can make it refuse to compile on big-endian computers)
03:21:41 <zzo38> I am not writing a Pascal decompiler, and I don't need to decompile anything.
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03:22:05 <zzo38> Now do you understand?
03:22:31 <alise> i still can't figure out why you downloaded a pascal manual
03:23:16 <olsner> me neither, I don't think this explains how a pascal manual would be relevant
03:32:45 <zzo38> Maybe you can see, when you can see the program.
03:34:37 <alise> zzo38: Maybe you could tell us.
03:41:03 <alise> is the thing you connect to with a socket -- (host,port) -- really (host,port) or (hostname,port)?
03:41:05 <alise> unabbreviated, I mean
03:41:58 <zzo38> alise: I mean put the domain name or IP address
03:42:15 <alise> should be host then
03:42:18 <alise> as an ip isn't a hostname
03:42:25 <alise> wow, i just realised how awesome an irc library could be with continuations
03:42:42 <alise> info = whois("somebody"); print(info.channels);
03:42:51 <alise> and before the server returns the whois request
03:42:55 <alise> what the whois call would do is continue the server loop
03:42:59 <alise> so any incoming messages get handled
03:43:06 <alise> then when the whois reply returns, it calls the continuation it saved
03:43:18 <alise> also, any errors could be raised as exceptions in that continuation
03:46:06 <alise> zzo38: do you know if there's a name for the USER/(PASS)/NICK combination sent by the client?
03:53:50 <alise> coppro: but the server has no part in it
03:54:18 <zzo38> alise: I guess it is the login sequence?
03:54:23 <zzo38> I don't know if it has a name
03:56:29 <zzo38> When I write CZZT, then maybe Tim Sweeney should sell this book together in the same mail order?
04:02:48 <zzo38> Well, I want to send a copy of the book (and DVD) to him anyways
04:06:09 <zzo38> The DVD contain source-codes, executables, and DVI file for printing another copy
04:07:09 <alise> you could fit that on a cd.
04:07:42 <zzo38> I could use a CD. But blank DVDs are less expensive than blank CDs in Canada, due to music tax. It is stupid law, but it is the law anyways.
04:07:51 <zzo38> Even if you are not using the CDs for music.
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04:26:08 <zeotrope> zzo38: heard of the university copyright tariff proposal?
04:26:29 <zeotrope> http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5250/125/
04:27:37 <alise> if you recv() from a socket and an \r\n is reached, you may still get stuff after that, right?
04:27:48 <zzo38> zeotrope: I have not heard of it before.
04:30:04 <coppro> If it's accepted, I will definitely go out of my way to have my uni not subscribe
04:34:54 <zeotrope> this tariff, bill C-32 and ACTA, grim future ahead if they pass
04:41:04 * alise decides /not/ to handle servers that send \r one send, then \n the very next message
04:41:07 <alise> that would be ludicrous.
04:41:31 <alise> python needs a multi_split :P
04:45:23 <alise> coppro: 'foo'.split_by_either(['\r', '\n'])
04:45:38 <alise> 'foobar'.split_by_either(['o', 'a']) -> ['f', '', 'b', 'r']
04:45:50 <alise> like using re.split
04:45:52 <alise> but not so heavyweight
04:46:08 <zzo38> I think maybe the law should be this: require businesses that use TPMs to include a prominent warning on their packaging
04:46:32 <zzo38> (And in addition, don't have any anti-circumvention laws)
04:47:40 <coppro> IIRC my computer has one but it's turned off
04:48:33 <zzo38> coppro: Then disconnect the TPM hardware
04:48:39 <zeotrope> the bill is good on the whole but the TPM stuff invalidates everything other freedom the bill offers
04:49:22 <coppro> zzo38: It's a laptop; too much work. Shutting it off at the bios is fine
04:49:35 <zzo38> They need to add a warning label on all DRM products. There are warning labels required for many other things too
04:49:40 <zzo38> coppro: O, it is a laptop.
04:50:05 <coppro> zeotrope: yes, uw student. Also member of the PPCA for what it's worth
04:51:00 <zeotrope> coppro: you should also join WSIC, http://wsic.uwaterloo.ca/
04:53:24 <coppro> zeotrope: I will check it out when I arrive
04:53:30 <coppro> are you a student there?
04:55:32 <zzo38> I have idea to built new computer, with new hardware and software, all GNU GPL (and other Free software), the hardware design has a few goals, one is that it is not too difficult to understand how it works (someone can open it and look), another goal is for the hardware design to prevent "digital locks" from working.
04:55:50 <zzo38> However, I can still see one hole in it, the "random number generator" hole, and I am unsure how to correct this.
04:57:11 <zzo38> My initial idea is to use ARM11 and DSPs, but later versions might be designed to use MMIX instead (with a "pre-initialization" mode).
04:57:40 <zzo38> Do you have any opinions about this?
04:58:15 <zeotrope> I don't understand why RNG would be a hole
04:58:34 * alise decides to submit http://merd.sourceforge.net/ to reddit, but cannot think of a title
04:58:57 <alise> maybe "merd language = dynamic expressivity + static type checks"
05:06:20 <zzo38> RNG can be a hole in some cases, especially when companies can provide external hardware that is required to load a game onto a computer.
05:06:44 <zzo38> Or even with network access, this can sometimes be a problem.
05:07:07 <zzo38> I can use trademarks to enforce some rules. But trademarks do not change a hardware design.
05:07:46 <zzo38> (You are not allowed to advertise your products as being compatible with this computer if you do not follow these rules)
05:08:49 <alise> how can rng be a hole
05:13:38 <zzo38> alise: O, you still don't know?
05:14:31 <zzo38> A game might have a random number generator, but then it uses the same sequence of random numbers each time, and ruins the game!
05:19:04 <zzo38> Well, the hardware is designed to prevent digital locks, but it isn't effective if a software company can just design their software so that it ruins the game if you try to mirror the program in hardware.....
05:25:49 <alise> And so, we come swiftly to a conclusion: allow me to introduce the Natty Narwhal, our mascot for development work that we expect to deliver as Ubuntu 11.04.
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05:38:42 <zzo38> Other ideas include:
05:39:34 <zzo38> Hardware-level debug chains, where the software being debugged cannot know it is being debugged, that the debugger can lie to the software about clock speed, time of day, IP address, and so on
05:39:47 <zzo38> That replacing system software requires opening up the box and changing some jumper switches
05:40:27 <zzo38> That it includes a comprehensive manual describing everything about the computer and how to program it
05:40:47 <zzo38> That there are simple hardware interfaces to connect to external devices, such as game controllers
05:41:09 <zzo38> That it has a built-in Forth and BASIC interpreter
05:42:38 <zzo38> That it has separate processors for main CPU and for video DSP and for audio DSP, all of which are reprogrammable (except for NMIs)
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06:54:51 <zzo38> How can you make arrows drunk with blood?
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07:15:05 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil This is terra nullius; anyone want to start a country?
07:16:34 <coppro> uh, that article says it's under Egyptian control
07:17:01 <pikhq> No, it says it was in 1902.
07:17:18 <pikhq> It is currently claimed by absolutely no state.
07:17:28 <coppro> I should mention this in #csc
07:17:38 <coppro> UW computer science club
07:17:48 <coppro> same sort of people generally as here
07:17:49 <pikhq> And under very well-defined international law, it would be perfectly valid for one to set up a country there.
07:17:56 <coppro> except they'd actually go there and start a country
07:18:15 <pikhq> If I had enough money to make a reasonable investment into it, I'd probably do so.
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07:18:40 <coppro> pikhq: you should tell Julian Assange
07:19:01 <pikhq> coppro: ... My *God*.
07:19:26 <pikhq> Though, unfortunately, he would instantly have war declared upon him.
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07:21:16 <coppro> the USA has actually signed the Montevideo Convention
07:21:47 <coppro> it won't stop them from taking some actions, but they'll do those anywhere
07:22:30 <pikhq> Somehow, I doubt they care.
07:22:49 <coppro> they wouldn't care about it in Sweden either
07:23:04 <coppro> the USA firmly believes in its right to kill other people
07:23:25 <pikhq> The USA firmly believes in its right to kill *everyone*.
07:24:01 <coppro> but that has to be approved
07:24:08 <coppro> and go through normal courts, etc.
07:24:17 <pikhq> The US military has recently had shoot-to-kill orders against US citizens.
07:24:28 <coppro> I thought that was illegal
07:24:58 <coppro> someone should try to sneak a right to life into the constitution and have the gop support it because they think it will ban abortion
07:25:35 <pikhq> Anwar al-Awlaki (born in Las Cruces, New Mexico) has standing shoot-to-kill orders against him.
07:25:46 <pikhq> Said orders from President Obama.
07:26:35 <coppro> oh wait, does the restriction against killing citizens only apply on US soil?
07:27:03 <pikhq> Doesn't matter; it's still blatantly illegal. You see, the US constitution requires due process.
07:28:23 <coppro> pikhq: that's only for crimes
07:28:31 <coppro> the US can in theory still kill someone arbitrarily
07:29:16 <pikhq> Under this crazy-ass loose interpretation of the US constitution, it can.
07:30:03 <pikhq> If you look at what it actually says, the US hardly has the authority to pick its nose.
07:30:24 <pikhq> (not that anyone actually *follows* what it says, but hey.)
07:30:47 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, I love the gop
07:30:52 <coppro> "let's uphold the US Constitution"
07:31:01 <coppro> *blatatanly violates it*
07:31:05 <coppro> "you disagree? you're unamerican!"
07:31:14 <pikhq> "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
07:31:39 <pikhq> Hmm. The US is not delegated the power to kill people at random. Clearly, the US does not have it.
07:32:39 <coppro> clearly that falls within powers necessary for the general well-being
07:32:57 <coppro> ... honestly, the worst part of living in Canada is that we're next to you guys :(
07:34:09 <pikhq> "No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another." -- Montevideo Convention.
07:34:17 <pikhq> That one clause the US ignores so damned much...
07:34:41 <coppro> is it actually law in the USA
07:36:46 <coppro> has anyone tried to use it to block government actions?
07:37:02 <coppro> or does your dumb concept of standing prevent it?
07:37:24 <pikhq> ... Waitwaitwait*what*?
07:37:37 <pikhq> "American law is that international accords become part of the body of U.S. federal law. As a result, Congress can modify or repeal treaties by subsequent legislative action, even if this amounts to a violation of the treaty under international law."
07:37:49 <pikhq> *Congress can repeal treaties with a simple majority*?!?
07:37:57 <coppro> that actually makes sense
07:38:09 <coppro> and is probably the case in most nations
07:38:57 <pikhq> In most nations, it is effectively a *contract* signed with other nations.
07:40:05 <coppro> they shoudl ratify the Vienna Convention
07:40:36 <coppro> although does Congress have power to limit itself?
07:40:45 <coppro> without a constitutional amendment
07:41:12 <pikhq> The Congress has the power to define its own rules of proceeding.
07:43:12 <coppro> does that include by enacting provisions which limit its further powers?
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07:44:20 <pikhq> "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two-thirds, expel a Member."
07:44:50 <pikhq> Though it would probably have to be part of its rules of proceedings, *yes* it could in fact limit itself permanently.
07:45:13 <coppro> I suppose that should be construed as saying that an enactment can partially or permanently limit its powers, unless that would interfere with the execution of the Constitution
07:47:45 <coppro> in Canada, our chambers are constitutionally required to act by simple majority (yes, really); it's free to internally limit its procedures, but if it was tried to be permanent, it would probably be deemed unconstitutional under the principle that no Parliament should be able to limit a future one.
07:48:02 <coppro> (except by enactment, of course, but those are more directly subject to the constitution)
07:48:21 <pikhq> There is nothing in the US constitution that requires that Congress' laws be made by majority.
07:48:37 <pikhq> It would, in fact, be *perfectly* valid for Congress to cease making laws forever.
07:49:07 <pikhq> Or delegate its law-making powers to the President. Forever.
07:49:53 <pikhq> *However*, it would still be required to meet.
07:50:15 <coppro> and it would probably be interpreted as legal by the courts too
07:51:13 <coppro> that's the other safeguard here... a future Parliament effectively /cannot/ be hamstrung by the current one because the ultimate decision authority in affairs regarding the chambers is, in fact, the chambers themselves
07:52:55 <pikhq> There would be one way to make that complete lock-down stop. An amendment.
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07:53:22 <coppro> although in theory the courts could legally intervene if they determined that the constitution was being directly undermined by the
07:53:35 <coppro> *by the Parliament. They would be exceedingly loath to do so
07:53:51 <pikhq> In fact, an amendment could still be made if the *entire* US legal system had stopped.
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07:54:25 <pikhq> The US's constitution explicitly allows for constitutional conventions to make amendments.
07:54:33 <coppro> yeah, that's a good thing
07:54:45 <coppro> there should always be an emergency button
07:56:18 <pikhq> Yours is the remains of monarchy.
07:56:39 <pikhq> (quite unlike the UK's, which is literally a fully-functioning monarchy that refuses to exercise its power.)
07:57:43 <coppro> our monarchy still has similar powers to the UK's
07:58:00 <pikhq> Your monarchy has enumerated powers.
07:58:05 <pikhq> The UK's has enumerated restrictions.
07:58:29 <coppro> but most decisions made by the government are made through the monarchy
07:59:08 <coppro> in other news, I'm reading Robert's Rules
07:59:12 <coppro> which I should have done long ago
07:59:53 <pikhq> In Canada, this is *in name*.
07:59:59 <pikhq> In the UK, this is *in fact*.
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08:00:27 <pikhq> The Queen *literally* just delegates her powers.
08:00:53 <coppro> it's a good system, really
08:01:29 <pikhq> Among other things, she merely delegates her power to negotiate and ratify treaties.
08:01:36 <pikhq> Or to command the military.
08:01:41 <pikhq> Or issue passports.
08:01:53 <coppro> those powers fit entirely within prerogative
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08:02:22 <coppro> same with calling an election. If QE2 wanted, she could decide that we were having an election and we'd have one.
08:02:57 <pikhq> And declare war on fruit?
08:03:18 <coppro> although maybe declarations of war are subject to Parliament
08:04:07 <coppro> (they're still considered a prerogative though, just one with its application restricted by an Act)
08:05:23 <coppro> hmm... I don't see anything off-hand
08:05:30 <coppro> I guess war is still wholly a prerogative
08:07:04 <pikhq> Hrm. Okay, guess it is pretty similar in Canada.
08:07:23 <pikhq> *Except* that in the UK, she also acts as your ambassador to God.
08:07:58 <coppro> in general, anything that isn't explicitly covered by an Act is the same as in the UK, by tradition
08:07:58 <pikhq> Monarchy is confusing.
08:08:11 <coppro> it's not monarchy itself, it's damend uncodified law
08:08:27 <pikhq> Less so than having a constitution that is completely and utterly ignored, though.
08:08:38 <coppro> and then vehemently defended by the same people
08:09:01 <pikhq> At least in uncodified law, things are actually functioning according to what has been made law.
08:09:21 <coppro> admittedly, one of the benefits of uncodified law is that it can be flexible
08:11:11 <pikhq> Well, yes. Same damned legal system that served King Ælfrǣd the Great...
08:12:20 <pikhq> (styled REX SAXONUM)
08:13:22 <coppro> maybe in another 1100 years, it will work
08:13:39 <pikhq> Argh, that's not even the first monarch. Just the first King of the English.
08:14:16 <coppro> although most people consider it to have really started with the Magna Carta
08:14:39 <coppro> since that limited the monarch's powers
08:14:56 <pikhq> Eh, I consider it the same legal system before that. The Magna Carta is merely the first one to make it not total monarchy.
08:15:46 <pikhq> Huh. Actually, no.
08:15:53 <pikhq> Charter of Liberties predates it.
08:16:33 <pikhq> Much-ignored, but *that* was the first thing to limit the King's powers.
08:22:58 <pikhq> Man. The World Passport.
08:23:26 <pikhq> Published based on the assertion that this means you can just freely travel between countries: Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
08:23:43 <pikhq> (from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; signed by every UN member)
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08:24:49 <fizzie> Back when our place (Finland) was independizing (December 1917), there was some debate whether to be a republic or a monarchy. They chose a republic at first, but after that civil war thing there was a bit of power-shifting in the Parliament, and they decided they wanted a king after all; they elected some prince out of Germany as the king. Real soon after that the last German emperor abdicated, and our brand-new king renounced the throne as well.
08:25:43 <fizzie> "Governmental archives reveal that the monarchical designation of the king was intended, at least tentatively, to be 'Charles I, King of Finland and Karelia, Duke of Åland, Grand Prince of Lapland, Lord of Kaleva and the North'." I don't know, "Lord of -- the North" sounds a little bit grandiose.
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08:31:22 <pikhq> Try "William II & III and Mary II, King and Queen of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith." for grandiose confusion.
08:31:32 <pikhq> (yes, that is a single title)
08:32:30 <fizzie> Well, Kaleva and North in that title are referring to the Kalevala mythology there, so it's a bit faith-based; just a different one.
08:32:51 <pikhq> I don't think you noticed "France" in there.
08:33:04 <pikhq> They claimed *France*.
08:33:06 <fizzie> Oh, I completely glossed over it. Heh.
08:33:19 <pikhq> Also, "King and Queen".
08:33:47 <fizzie> Well, I have this ambiguous-gender friend too...
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08:34:00 <pikhq> It wasn't ambiguous-gender.
08:34:10 <pikhq> The King/Queen regnant was two people.
08:34:26 <coppro> but legally one person?
08:34:40 <pikhq> Legally two people, but one monarch.
08:36:52 <fizzie> That doesn't sound too strange, but admittedly what I know of monarchies mostly comes from reading through the fantasy book aisle of the library at our behind-the-ass-end-of-nowhere summer cottage "city".
08:37:00 <pikhq> Except that they *were* married, so in a *sense* they were one entity.
08:37:14 <coppro> yeah, but what happens if they disagree about something?
08:37:17 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coregency has quite a lot of examples, still.
08:37:34 <coppro> or worse, get a divorce
08:37:46 <coppro> or was that when it was illegal?
08:38:09 <pikhq> No, it's after the formation of the Church of England for the sake of making divorce legal.
08:38:20 <pikhq> coppro: Well, they're still King/Queen regnant.
08:38:59 <pikhq> Andorra's whole monarchy setup confuses me.
08:39:50 <pikhq> One of their two co-Princes is elected. Just not in Andorra.
08:40:04 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Whitlam_Ministry
08:40:36 <pikhq> It's the duly elected President of France.
08:40:51 <pikhq> Along with the Bishop of Urgell, in Spain.
08:40:57 <pikhq> Just... What the hell?
08:41:26 <pikhq> The French elect a Prince of Andorra.
08:42:42 <fizzie> Bishop of Urgell sounds equally random, even if it's not an elected position. (I profess to complete ignorance on how they select bishops.)
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08:42:56 <fizzie> "Andorra was ceded to the bishop of Urgell by the count Ermengol IV of Urgell in the twelfth century. There is still a bishop of Urgell, who since 2003 has been Joan Enric Vives Sicília. This role carries with it the position of joint head of state of Andorra."
08:43:22 <coppro> IIRC bishops are appointed
08:44:59 <fizzie> Still, looking at the list -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Co-Princes_of_Andorra -- it seems that having a bishop there is a lot stabler than "whoever's the top dog at France", given how much more complicated the right column looks.
08:46:01 <pikhq> coppro: It's a somewhat complicated procedure, it seems.
08:46:23 <pikhq> Among other things, it depends on which sub-church of the Roman Catholic Church is involved.
08:47:12 <coppro> canon law is ridiculous
08:47:25 <coppro> hell, it used to be a separate degree
08:47:30 <pikhq> 2000 year old legal institutions tend to be.
08:47:34 <coppro> (before it became pointless)
08:48:09 <coppro> pikhq: there were 10 :P
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08:54:33 <coppro> holy shit the motion to reconsider is confusing
08:55:21 <wareya> Today, I learned that it's not a good idea to attach a screen session to itself.
08:55:39 <coppro> I hate books with busted spines :(
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11:35:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_Vampire_Hunter has possibly the best plot synopsis I have ever seen on Wikipedia.
11:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> "Jesus fights with mixed martial arts skills and uses his carpentry skills to create weapons with which to slay vampires."
12:25:44 <Zuu> Sounds like an incredibly pointless movie
12:39:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I wonder how that movie compares to plan 9... in quality
12:40:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> I think it's deliberately ridiculous. No, I know it's deliberately ridiculous.
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13:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/OLPC-Active_Antenna.jpg I love the way that it still has the green squiggle Word grammar check puts in on "for".
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14:23:35 <fizzie> Here's three recaptcha words I've gotten recently: http://zem.fi/~fis/faircaptcha.png -- the first one is in the Cyrillic alphabet, the second I have no clue about, and the third seems to have two levels of superscripts. Sometimes they might be asking a bit much.
14:26:03 <fizzie> каковую I reasonably could have written in, and perhaps hunted the second one down with some work, but I don't really know how they'd have wanted me to input the third one. MathML? TeX math notation?
14:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> reCAPTCHA uses, at least in part, words that it's not sure about, doesn't it?
14:28:20 <fizzie> Yes, IIRC one of the words it knows, the other it's trying to have you OCR for it.
14:29:14 <fizzie> My guess would be that those three would be those that it doesn't know, but I still wouldn't have felt comfortable entering any sort of garbage.
14:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, for the 3rd you could have used some sort of flat format/
14:36:18 <fizzie> Personally I'd parse that as (X^(p^m))+1 and not X^(p^(m+1)) like it is.
14:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> This is primarily due to not knowing what a resonant frequency is.
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17:12:54 <Peping> Hello. I just made an interpreter for Braincopter. The problem is I'm too busy to make an IDE for it, and writing a program using just GIMP or MS Paint is too slow and difficult. Who's up for making an IDE? :)
17:13:56 <Peping> (actually I really need an IDE. Today's I and my gf have an anniversary and I though it would be nice to put some nice code into a nice picture
17:16:16 <Peping> Anyway.. is anybody even listening? Or everybody is on bounce?
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17:26:05 <Warrigal> IRC channels are never near as full as they seem to be. Luckily, as long as nobody else says much, what you said will be the first thing people see when they return.
17:28:20 <oerjan> the fact no one had spoken in 3 hours might also be a _teeny_ hint
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19:00:01 <alise> 23:15:05 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil This is terra nullius; anyone want to start a country?
19:00:19 <alise> 23:18:40 <coppro> pikhq: you should tell Julian Assange
19:00:19 <alise> 23:19:01 <pikhq> coppro: ... My *God*.
19:00:19 <alise> 23:19:26 <pikhq> Though, unfortunately, he would instantly have war declared upon him.
19:00:31 <alise> put a data centre there
19:00:38 <alise> host everything that isn't child porn
19:01:12 <alise> 23:25:35 <pikhq> Anwar al-Awlaki (born in Las Cruces, New Mexico) has standing shoot-to-kill orders against him.
19:01:12 <alise> 23:25:46 <pikhq> Said orders from President Obama.
19:03:57 <alise> 23:40:05 <coppro> they shoudl ratify the Vienna Convention
19:04:31 <alise> pikhq: I'm so glad the war in Iraq is over! I'm so glad drug laws have been made more reasonable! I'm so glad the economy is back on its feet!
19:04:42 <alise> What a wonderful thing, to live in America under Obama!
19:05:12 <pikhq> alise: And the balanced budget! Ooooh, and Gitmo!
19:05:21 <pikhq> What a wonderful thing, to live in America under Obama!
19:05:39 <alise> Aah, it's so nice that thing closed down.
19:05:44 <zeotrope> http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/
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19:06:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: You'd have to get a connection, yes.
19:06:25 <alise> And the tier-1 providers have rules, yes.
19:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Just host them in one of the Terra Nullii in Antarctica; you wouldn't need to bother with cooling.
19:06:29 <Sgeo> You'd rather risk America under Palin?
19:06:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: ha
19:06:43 <alise> Sgeo: Oh, yes, I forgot, the American constitution specifies that there may only be two parties.
19:06:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: No. I WANT KUCINICH.
19:06:49 <alise> Also, Palin ran for president, not John McCain.
19:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> And it's near enough Argentina that you could run a cable there.
19:06:53 <alise> All these things are true.
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19:07:10 <Sgeo> As in, if something happened to McCain
19:07:23 <alise> Yes, because it's impossible to elect someone else entirely.
19:07:45 <alise> As I said, the glorious Constitution provides for two parties: the Republicans, and the Almost Republicans.
19:07:54 <Sgeo> At the time of the general election, it would be close enough to impossible
19:08:10 <alise> Yes, and that of course means that now, it is bad and wrong to complain.
19:08:28 <alise> Because you should accept what your horrific political climate decides to stick in your ass, and you should like it.
19:08:36 <alise> God bless America.
19:09:03 <pikhq> alise: One of the major misconceptions of American politics is that if you vote for !Republican || !Democrat then you have voted for RAPING BABIES WITH NUCLEAR MISSILES AND MACES
19:09:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: running a cable to argentina wouldn't help
19:09:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: because you'd need to get net-connected in argentina
19:09:32 <pikhq> Because somehow, voting for a third party *guarantees that evil will win*.
19:09:40 <alise> and i think all the providers require you obey the law of your country
19:09:55 <alise> besides, the fact is that you'd break argentinian law
19:10:10 <alise> pikhq: could you get connected to a tier-1 without going through another country, do you think?
19:10:16 <alise> and without being bound by anyone else's laws
19:11:15 <pikhq> alise: You'd set up a private corporation to be connected to said tier-1.
19:11:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: That doesn't sound awfully legal.
19:11:36 <pikhq> Sadly, you'd have to be *involved* with another nation to be connected.
19:11:38 <alise> pikhq: A private corporation in the Fair Dictatorial Democracy of Data Haven, yes.
19:11:45 <alise> How did Sealand do it?
19:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> You could host on the Moon, so everyone would be able to connect for half the month.
19:12:39 <pikhq> They purchased a wireless link through the UK.
19:12:51 <alise> pikhq: And ... how did that let them host illegal shit, again?
19:13:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Or a REALLY POWERFUL LASER.
19:13:11 <pikhq> alise: It was perfectly legal for the server to be hosting stuff where they operated.
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19:13:16 <alise> Lightspeed Communications, Inc.
19:13:31 <alise> pikhq: But how would they transmit the material to anyone else legally?
19:13:40 <pikhq> alise: What's actually on the pipes is not regulated.
19:13:51 <alise> pikhq: Oh. Why didn't you tell me?
19:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> OTOH it would be unusable on a cloudy day if the laser was optical.
19:14:03 <alise> pikhq: Are you just saying that no country would want to do business with such a happy-go-lucky country?
19:14:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Okay: MICROWAVES
19:14:22 <pikhq> alise: Not necessarily, actually...
19:14:22 <alise> Hot Hot Communications, Inc.
19:14:28 <alise> pikhq: See, this is PRACTICAL!
19:15:11 <alise> Antarctica conditions are shitty.
19:15:20 <alise> No technician is going to wear those clothes.
19:15:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: I wonder what the nearest first-world country is to the area.
19:15:53 <alise> I doubt Egypt has a fast internet link.
19:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, for the Moon you're going to have pretty high latency.
19:16:29 <alise> Meanwhile, pikhq! Inject some non-Moon-related facts into this discussion.
19:17:01 <pikhq> alise: Your major problem here is that Bir Tawil is landlocked.
19:17:23 <pikhq> Thus, you'd have to go through Egypt or Sudan...
19:17:31 <alise> pikhq: Good point.
19:17:36 <alise> Not the friendliest countries.
19:17:39 <pikhq> Rather than, say, having a link to Europe.
19:17:44 <alise> Or the countries with the fastest interweb.
19:17:58 <alise> pikhq: But is Antarctica really practical?
19:18:03 <pikhq> (Northern Africa. Linking to Europe is *practical*.)
19:18:05 <alise> I mean, those conditions are *shitty*.
19:18:11 <alise> You'd need a /heated/ data centre!
19:18:13 <pikhq> alise: Not especially.
19:18:37 <pikhq> Well, maybe *right* on a coast.
19:18:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: They probably wouldn't RUN on speeds that slow.
19:19:00 <alise> pikhq: If you can link to Argentina, then yeah, there's a place right on the coast.
19:19:01 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:19:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Erm. Temperatures.
19:19:16 <pikhq> alise: Actually. Servers run *better* when cold.
19:19:30 <alise> The components would get icy! :P
19:19:36 <pikhq> Some people have used liquid nitrogen cooling.
19:19:51 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Argentina_(orthographic_projection).svg <-- am I right in thinking that you could just pick the bit next to the light green and then link to argentina, dark green?
19:19:56 <alise> or are those claimed by someone else?
19:20:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, okay, it's just a sort of "wtf that can't work" thing.
19:20:16 <alise> "Antarctica is considered a desert"
19:20:26 <pikhq> alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Antarctica.jpg
19:20:35 <pikhq> Seems Argentina has claimed it.
19:20:43 <alise> pikhq: there's a bit argentina hasn't though
19:20:48 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Argentina_(orthographic_projection).svg
19:20:55 <alise> the green is the bit argentina hasn't claimed.
19:21:03 <alise> the green is the bit it has claimed
19:21:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: yeah, but undersea cables are long anyway
19:21:12 <alise> Of course our biggest problem
19:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, they couldn't run through any of those sectors that have been claimed.
19:21:29 <alise> is that this kind of expensive anything-but-child-pr0n hosting has a world market of maybe
19:21:37 <alise> and this infrastructure is expensive as shit
19:21:53 <alise> therefore i propose we just take that african land and found an anarcho-syndicalist commune
19:22:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> Given that not even Egypt and Sudan want it, that seems a bit impractical.
19:22:37 <alise> erm, it doesn't look inhospitable.
19:23:01 <pikhq> Just horribly unwanted.
19:23:09 <alise> its name means "water well", quite a promising name :P
19:23:21 <alise> is there a list of unclaimed lands?
19:23:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover_: Moon is good. Moon is great. Moon requires more resources than nations are willing to dump into it.
19:23:35 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius
19:23:52 <alise> http://cstart.org/
19:24:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> We just need a server, a laser, a receiver and a maintenance robot!
19:24:09 <alise> (it's a bunch of talentless reddit guys convinced they can get to the moon using THE VAST COMMUNE OF MODERN SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE)
19:24:19 <alise> but hey, they have a logo! they're as good as there.
19:24:34 <alise> latency to the moon sucks
19:24:49 <pikhq> alise: Better than Mars.
19:25:04 <alise> pikhq: BETTER THAN ANDROMEDA
19:25:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: But LIGHTSPEED BANDWIDTH
19:25:19 <pikhq> Yeah... The Moon is at least close enough for TCP/IP to *work*.
19:25:37 <alise> TCP/IP/FUCKING HUGE LASER
19:25:50 * Phantom_Hoover_ remembers the bit in "The Cuckoo's Egg" where Stoll concluded that the hacker lived on the moon.
19:25:56 <pikhq> Actually, technically everything is, you just need to set your allowed latencies way the hell up.
19:26:27 <alise> wait wait how do we do the sends
19:26:33 <alise> ANOTHER GIANT FUCKING LASER TRANSMITTER
19:26:35 <alise> POINTED AT THE MOON
19:27:05 <alise> IF YOU PUT YOUR HAND IN FRONT OF THE RECEIVER OR TRANSMITTER
19:27:28 <alise> DESTROY ALL CLOUDS WITH LASERS
19:27:46 <alise> pikhq: http://pastie.org/1108197.txt?key=y7rbmbtn18uwnshgbd8za Please make this code suck less. Thank you.
19:27:51 <alise> pikhq: Also, make it work.
19:28:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: NOT VISIBLE
19:28:36 <pikhq> It gets rid of clouds and pesky biologicals, too!
19:29:13 <pikhq> alise: Insufficiently functional.
19:29:32 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, but I'm using an insufficiently cool language to keep me sufficiently able to code simple plugins.
19:29:55 <alise> pikhq: In an ideal world, it'd be written in whatever my damn language is called.
19:30:02 <alise> Which has super-asynchronous continuation process functional power!
19:30:11 <alise> And IRC is INTERTWINGLED BETWIXT everything else, dude.
19:30:17 <alise> Responses to WHOISes by continuations!
19:30:22 <alise> NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND.
19:33:13 <alise> pikhq: Your BROTHA.
19:33:36 <alise> But that'll piss off Eridrianians even more!
19:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> And the ability to know the current phase of the moon will become relevant!
19:36:14 <alise> nethack.moon.org will only work at the HARDEST POSSIBLE TIME.
19:36:54 <alise> Put broadcasters on BOTH SIDES.
19:36:59 <alise> This would so work shut up
19:39:21 <oerjan> <alise> NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. <-- wait you're planning to send them to the moon too?
19:41:31 <alise> I still think a super-semantic continuation-based IRC library would be a rather ridiculously cool idea. If a horrible case of overengineering.
19:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Although the moon in sunlight is very hot, so I'm not sure how we'd keep it cool.
19:42:24 <alise> We could beam cold from earth.
19:42:27 <alise> Or: LIQUID NITROGEN.
19:42:38 <alise> (How hot does it get, anyway?)
19:43:28 <alise> Presumably -233 is not in the day.
19:44:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Temperature during the day is averaged at 107°, night at -153
19:44:39 <Warrigal> So, Nordic #esoterickers, what universities are you going to?
19:44:53 <alise> He's British. So, yes.
19:44:57 -!- alise has left (?).
19:44:59 -!- alise has joined.
19:45:02 <Warrigal> Gosh, we'd better give that thing an atmosphere.
19:45:15 <alise> Warrigal: fizzie/Deewiant are Aalto guyz (really TKK but whatever)
19:45:18 <alise> oklopol is university of turku
19:45:24 <alise> who cares about anmaster (uppsala i think?)
19:45:31 <olsner> #esoteric University, of course
19:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> So we could keep a reservoir of cold during the night, then use that during the day to keep the servers cool.
19:45:40 <Deewiant> Aalto University School of Science and Technology, these days.
19:45:55 <alise> Deewiant: i'll stick to saying TKK when i need to (which is never)
19:46:32 <Deewiant> It's still even officially TKK for short, I think.
19:46:47 <alise> Switzerland's name is so awesome.
19:46:52 <alise> (Confœderatio Helvetica)
19:47:20 <Warrigal> Mmkay, TKK is the Aalto School of Science, Etc., which is presumably part of Aalto University.
19:47:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: You got your cause and effect mixed up, buddy.
19:48:09 <alise> In 1960, the typeface's name was changed by Haas' German parent company Stempel to Helvetica (derived from Confoederatio Helvetica, the Latin name for Switzerland) in order to make it more marketable internationally. It was initially suggested that the type be called 'Helvetia' which is the original Latin name for Switzerland. This was ignored by Eduard Hoffmann as he decided it wouldn't be appropriate to name a type after a country. He then decided on 'Hel
19:48:10 <alise> vetica' as this meant 'Swiss' as opposed to 'Switzerland'.
19:48:18 <oerjan> <alise> We could beam cold from earth. <-- in this channel we obey the laws of thermodynamics! not by choice, mind you.
19:49:11 <alise> i am the world's first knitting terrorist
19:49:14 <Warrigal> Huh. Aalto, Turku, and Uppsala are all about the same size.
19:49:25 <Warrigal> Beam cold from Earth. Uh, let me think about how well that would work.
19:49:29 <alise> Warrigal: but only ONE is next to helsinki!
19:49:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: something lunatic, obviously
19:49:49 <alise> which contains all 3 people in Finland
19:49:54 <alise> 5 or so of whom are in here
19:49:55 <Warrigal> I say it would work about as well as beaming energy from Earth.
19:50:04 <alise> as our Finnology department has discovered
19:50:06 <oerjan> lunatica is a cool name for a font. right?
19:50:15 <alise> oerjan: yes, i'll alias it to Curlz MT
19:50:16 <Warrigal> Yeah, I was wondering, if there are only 3 people in Finland, how come this channel has more than 3 people?
19:50:32 <Vorpal> <alise> who cares about anmaster (uppsala i think?) <-- no?
19:50:44 <Vorpal> I'm nowhere near uppsala
19:50:46 <alise> Vorpal: you said uppsala university before
19:50:58 <alise> Warrigal: this has been covered in depth in prior months (i think a year or so ago even)
19:51:03 <alise> Warrigal: one of them drives the bus, btw
19:51:20 <Vorpal> alise, no I didn't. At most I said I considered it to be interesting to do master studies there
19:51:21 <olsner> what does finland have to do with this channel?
19:51:34 <alise> olsner: there's a lot of you here
19:51:35 <Vorpal> but bachelor I never claimed I'm doing at that university
19:51:39 <fizzie> Also, Helsinki University has more students than the combined might of Aalto; then again, UH is a generalized everything-in-it university, while Aalto is just a amalgamation of three specialized ones (technology, arts, business, in no particular order).
19:51:41 <alise> Vorpal: ok. thought you did
19:51:41 <Warrigal> olsner: it's a mathematical theorem that if this channel is analytic, then everyone in it is Finnish.
19:52:08 <alise> Let's see... Ilari, ineiros, fizzie, Deewiant
19:52:15 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh, it's still bigger? I hadn't realized that.
19:52:29 <alise> think there used to be one or two more
19:52:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Source: Wikipedia; but it says 35200 students for UH, 20434 for Aalto. Those other two "we" got were so small, relatively speaking.
19:52:55 <oerjan> Warrigal: i doubt this channel is even measurable, far less analytic
19:52:57 <Warrigal> I should change my nickname to one of those fancy newfangled initial-and-name nicks.
19:53:09 <Warrigal> Like "ehird" and "jcowan" and "rlpowell" and "dons".
19:53:13 <alise> Nordic, etc.: MigoMipo, MizardX, oerjan, FireFly, fizzie, Deewiant, ineiros, Ilari, and olsner.
19:53:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: Hmm, by that much, too.
19:53:27 <Warrigal> Except one of those is an initial-and-initial-and-name nick and another is a name-and-initial nick.
19:53:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: Surely some sort of land-grab war would be in order.
19:53:34 <alise> Deewiant: well he never comes here any more, but yeah
19:53:54 <alise> Warrigal: They're rubbish unless you have the right name.
19:54:02 <alise> Initials are great if you can pull it off.
19:54:11 <Warrigal> "tswett" is a rather dubious name.
19:54:20 <alise> actually i think there's a ts on freenode already
19:54:35 <alise> * ts :Nickname is already in use.
19:54:44 <alise> * [ts] (~ts@bzflag/developer/ts): Thomas Stauer
19:54:45 <Warrigal> See? It's so short that it's in use.
19:54:52 <alise> Warrigal: tanners!
19:55:01 -!- alise has changed nick to tanners.
19:55:04 <Warrigal> I guess his claim to that nick is as good as mine.
19:55:17 <Vorpal> <Warrigal> Oh, AnMaster is in disguise. <-- you change nick too...
19:55:28 -!- tanners has changed nick to swett.
19:55:34 <swett> Warrigal: Here you go.
19:55:55 <Warrigal> The only nick I'm actually considering is tswett, so if you want to take what I want from me, register that one.
19:55:59 -!- swett has changed nick to tswett.
19:56:02 <tswett> But this one is awful.
19:56:03 -!- derdon has joined.
19:56:09 <Vorpal> Warrigal, I did it once
19:56:13 <Vorpal> Warrigal, so not often either!
19:56:15 * Sgeo would be very reluctant to nickchange to, say, sgold
19:56:18 <tswett> I don't want to take it, I just want to extort a ludicrous price out of you for it.
19:56:27 <tswett> Sgeo: and Sgeo_who_is_Seth_Gold would be EVEN WORSE!
19:56:40 <Warrigal> I'm hoping that you'll take it so that I can sue you.
19:56:40 <fizzie> Also fungot, 'es Finnish! In the "place of residence" sense, at least, even if not the nationality one.
19:56:41 <fungot> fizzie: so please suggest a male name that starts with a small bootable linux distro, i have
19:56:48 <Sgeo> Especially since it's probably too long
19:56:49 <tswett> Warrigal: Yes, IRC Law.
19:56:51 <tswett> fizzie: I said (fungot).
19:56:52 <fungot> tswett: the guy who ircs from a phone was to use ffmpeg to generate a new name, now?
19:57:11 <fizzie> A male name that starts with a bootable Linux distro sounds awesome, too.
19:57:16 <tswett> Warrigal: Use ffmpeg to generate a new name.
19:57:22 <tswett> Warrigal: Only if you IRC from a phone though.
19:57:40 <tswett> fizzie: So who's fungot's mother?
19:57:40 <fungot> tswett: sisc, chicken, fnord supports keywords are indexes in terms, but you do need eof)
19:57:49 <tswett> Ah, Scheme implementations are.
19:57:53 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:57:58 <Warrigal> Mmkay, move over. The nick envy is setting in.
19:58:10 <tswett> but this name sucks :-P
19:58:18 <Warrigal> Precisely. Why do you want it? :P
19:58:28 <SgeoN1> Great, now to figure out how to use ffmpeg as an rng
19:58:34 <tswett> Because I think there is a very slight chance that I can either get a tiny bit of money from you for it, or amuse myself trying to.
19:58:42 <tswett> Also, because I know you know I'll give up very quickly.
19:58:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Vonlebio.
19:59:01 <tswett> Quick! Let's assume other people's nicks!
19:59:47 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to alisenot.
20:00:03 * pikhq would prefer to just note that most people's idea of ROM organisation sucks ass
20:00:09 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:00:12 * alisenot would feel very, very weird actually stealing someone's nick
20:00:30 -!- Vonlebio has changed nick to Sgeo.
20:00:33 <pikhq> "Hmm, let's archive each and every bad, broken dump!" "Aaaawesome!"
20:00:45 <alisenot> I could just ghost you, you know
20:00:48 <pikhq> "And each and every ROM hack, no matter how juvenile!" "Aaaawesome!"
20:01:03 <alisenot> ...actually, I don't know my Freenode password off the top of my head
20:01:16 <olsner> pikhq: your note has been noted
20:01:31 <tswett> pikhq: olsner: nickswap
20:01:37 <tswett> pikhq: you do /nick notpikhq
20:01:40 <tswett> olsner: you do /nick pikhq
20:01:44 <tswett> pikhq: you do /nick olsner
20:01:52 -!- alisenot has changed nick to alise.
20:01:56 -!- pikhq has changed nick to pikhq_.
20:01:58 -!- alise has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:02:03 <tswett> Too tempting to resist.
20:02:08 -!- tswett has changed nick to alise.
20:02:15 <alise> Warrigal: You win! Have your crappy nick!
20:02:18 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
20:02:25 <alise> OOPS I REGISTERED IT LOL
20:02:32 <alise> (Actually I didn't, but I totally should have.)
20:02:32 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
20:02:33 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:02:43 <alise> Hi Sgeo_! You disconnected a bit back there.
20:02:45 <alise> What a coincidence.
20:02:45 <Sgeo> I smell funny!
20:03:12 <Sgeo> ActiveWorlds sucks!
20:03:40 * Sgeo_ gets his password in hand
20:03:52 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Vonlebio.
20:03:58 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
20:04:08 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_.
20:04:11 <alise> Was gonna /nick Sgeo.
20:04:24 <Sgeo_> And you still can!
20:04:27 -!- alise has changed nick to Sgeo.
20:04:35 <Sgeo> NetHack is for gay people.
20:04:52 <Sgeo> I founded SGEOWIKI! But everyone else wrote all the articles.
20:04:55 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to alise.
20:04:58 -!- alise has changed nick to alise_.
20:05:07 <alise_> Feel free to get pointless, pointless revenge!
20:05:22 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to alise.
20:05:31 -!- alise has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:05:35 <Vonlebio> WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN
20:06:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:06:27 <alise_> Well, you /did/ do it.
20:07:06 -!- tswett has left (?).
20:12:02 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
20:13:28 <Vonlebio> YOU CANNOT HARM ME EVIL LORD ALISE
20:13:42 <alise> The battle was not against you.
20:16:15 * oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:17:34 <oerjan> it's a very evil overlord name
20:17:56 <Vonlebio> I'll have you know that it's SHAKESPEREAN
20:18:33 <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:18:45 <alise> `addquote <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:18:46 <fungot> alise: either the way, my program was buggy and i preferred to -i?!)
20:19:01 <HackEgo> 217|<fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:19:12 <HackEgo> 164|<DoctorDog> I am an inherently pornographic being.
20:19:13 <oerjan> if it were shakespearean i would imagine google would give more than 1 hit for it.
20:19:31 <alise> that one hit is probably Vonlebio himself.
20:20:11 * oerjan tried putting a space between von and lebio, it didn't really help
20:20:18 <Vonlebio> `addquote * oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:20:20 <HackEgo> 218|* oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:20:30 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
20:20:32 <alise> that's not a very good quote :p
20:20:34 <HackEgo> 129|<MissPiggy> bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay
20:20:49 <HackEgo> 12|<Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
20:21:02 <alise> huh actually /me can't think how to generate anagrams nicely in haskell
20:21:19 <HackEgo> 218|* oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:21:23 <alise> was thinking a list comprehension might help
20:21:29 <HackEgo> 218|* oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:21:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:21:41 * alise looks at revision history
20:21:52 <HackEgo> 218|* oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:21:59 <alise> that should be impossible
20:22:29 <HackEgo> 6|<Keiya> I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men.
20:22:49 <HackEgo> 216|<fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
20:22:50 <alise> `addquote <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:22:51 <fungot> alise: reminds me of the cartoon character? :) and do you answer yourself? this isnt some kind of spacetime rift thingy which is in pure ansi c))
20:22:53 <HackEgo> 217|<fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:24:45 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; ana [] = [[]]; ana l = [x:xs | (pre, x:aft) <- zip (inits l) (tails l), xs <- ana (pre++aft)]; main = print $ ana "thus"
20:24:54 <EgoBot> ["thus","thsu","tuhs","tush","tshu","tsuh","htus","htsu","huts","hust","hstu","hsut","uths","utsh","uhts","uhst","usth","usht","sthu","stuh","shtu","shut","suth","suht"]
20:25:12 <alise> oerjan: sheesh, is that the shortest it can get?
20:29:40 <alise> <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:31:19 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:31:30 <alise> zeotrope: YOU DON'T NEED IT IT IS INFERIOR TO BOTTE
20:31:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
20:31:49 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<AnMaster> fuck
20:31:50 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<Gregor> fuck
20:31:50 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<Gregor> fuck
20:31:50 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<Aftran> fuck
20:31:50 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<Aftran> fuck
20:33:09 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; ana [] = [[]]; ana l = [x:xs | x <- l, xs <- ana (delete x l)]; main = print $ ana "test"
20:33:11 <EgoBot> ["test","tets","tset","tste","ttes","ttse","etst","etts","estt","estt","etst","etts","stet","stte","sett","sett","stet","stte","test","tets","tset","tste","ttes","ttse"]
20:33:30 <alise> oerjan: hmm does delete only delete one?
20:33:36 <alise> Vorpal: from the hackego command logs
20:33:42 <alise> " 1.1 Binary file babies/babies.db has changed"
20:33:48 <alise> Apparently !fuck changed babies/babies.db.
20:33:57 <Vorpal> alise, eh I seldom say "fuck" on it's own like that, seems unlikely
20:33:58 <alise> You shouldn't do that kind of thing in public, Vorpal.
20:34:02 <alise> Vorpal: that's because you said !fuck
20:34:11 <alise> it's <foo> commandname ...
20:34:11 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; ana [] = [[]]; ana l = [x:xs | x <- nub l, xs <- ana (delete x l)]; main = print $ ana "test"
20:34:14 <EgoBot> ["test","tets","tset","tste","ttes","ttse","etst","etts","estt","stet","stte","sett"]
20:34:14 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, that thing he was playing around with
20:34:26 <alise> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/b2166a5a1366
20:34:34 <HackEgo> Congratulations! alise's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
20:35:29 <HackEgo> Congratulations! olsner's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
20:35:33 <HackEgo> alise's first child now has a little brother or sister! Aren't they so cute together?
20:36:06 <alise> <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
20:36:32 <Sgeo_> Oh come on, 7 and more is boring
20:36:56 <alise> Oh, orgy opinions?
20:37:23 <alise> By the time there's 7, there's gonna be enough space usage that it's effectively two smaller orgies with occasional diplomatic relations :P
20:38:24 <olsner> ooh, command-line sqlite, looks like a really convenient way to make a database
20:38:45 <alise> olsner: my friends, echo, sed, grep and awk
20:38:48 <alise> let me introduce you to them
20:39:21 <HackEgo> alise now has a third child! Congratulations! Surely that's enough though, right?
20:39:47 <olsner> alise: yeah, I know of them... let's just say sqlite looks like a very useful friend to also have :)
20:40:05 <alise> olsner: But it can't join in the UNIX plain text file orgy.
20:40:13 <olsner> bah, backtick is gruesome, takes three keypresses in swedish
20:40:15 <alise> Which is the most hacked-together yet surprisingly functional orgy ever.
20:40:26 <HackEgo> olsner just had a SIXTH baby! Wow! Don't you think it's about time to get an operation to put a stop to all this?
20:40:29 <alise> olsner: yeah but you guys do have a retarded alphabet
20:40:35 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.13953/bin/fuck
20:40:37 <alise> wait, how did you get six
20:40:51 <HackEgo> alise just had a fourth baby. Even though the child support payments are starting to add up, and alise really doesn't earn enough money for this, it's still a beautiful sight.
20:40:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! -e babies/babies.db ] \ then \ mkdir -p babies \ sqlite3 babies/babies.db 'CREATE TABLE babies(parent STRING PRIMARY KEY, count INTEGER);' \ fi \ \ # Update the count \ CURCOUNT=`sqlite3 babies/babies.db 'SELECT count FROM babies WHERE parent = '\'"$IRC_NICK"\'';'` \ NEWCOUNT=$(( CURCOUNT + 1 )) \ if [
20:41:05 <HackEgo> You would think that four is enough, but alise's libido is entirely unstoppable. With five children, the weight of parenthood is starting to weigh down on alise's life. Sorry buddies, I can't hang out today, I have to clean puke off the rug.
20:41:08 <olsner> the alphabet is not retarded, it just has three additional letters... it's the keyboard layout
20:41:11 <alise> I AM CONTRIBUTING TO OVERPOPULATION
20:41:16 <HackEgo> alise just had a SIXTH baby! Wow! Don't you think it's about time to get an operation to put a stop to all this?
20:41:21 <HackEgo> alise's 7th child has just been born! Awwwwww.
20:41:28 <Sgeo_> It just gets boring .. right
20:41:29 <alise> Sgeo_: Oh, you meant seven or more babies.
20:41:33 <alise> Not seven or more orgy participants.
20:41:39 <alise> I totally misinterpreted you!
20:41:47 <olsner> for some reason it's made to support the accented letters of *every* european language
20:41:58 <alise> olsner: Because you're HIPPIE COMMUNISTIC EUROFAGS.
20:42:19 <olsner> grave and acute accent, circumflex, tilde, double-dots -- all as dead keys
20:42:38 <Sgeo_> Now I know how you interpreted it, I can try to understand what you meant
20:45:09 <oerjan> now whatever you do, don't mix the interpretations.
20:45:25 <alise> oerjan: ORGY BABIES
20:45:59 <oerjan> alise: YOU'VE DOOMED US ALL
20:47:20 -!- cheater99 has joined.
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20:58:47 <alise> Sgeo_: quick! what's the recommended way to do mutually dependent modules in python?
20:58:57 <alise> haha only kidding you're NOT ALLOWED TO
20:59:34 <alise> i mean technically you can
20:59:36 <alise> but it's really brittle
20:59:51 <alise> from foo import bar
21:00:02 <alise> from bar import blah
21:00:50 <Sgeo_> "She didn't answer, save for a soft smile. Their eyes locked, and Sokka caught a slightly doe-eyed look on his sister face that he never, ever, ever, ever, ever wanted to see directed at anyone much less himself."
21:01:13 <alise> olsner: Random person! The IRC connection-mediator-thingy IRCClient should really be the one that parses lines, shouldn't it, not the Context (the "fully parsed" version, with field names depending on command, methods to reply to the right place, etc.) class?!
21:01:32 -!- SgeoN2 has joined.
21:01:50 <alise> Sgeo_: Ever, erver, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,
21:02:59 <olsner> alise: sounds like you know what you're talking about, and I don't
21:03:13 <alise> olsner: No, I honestly don't. I'm just trying to get an opinion.
21:03:36 <olsner> the parser of lines should obviously be independent of both
21:03:50 <alise> olsner: the parser is a very few lines
21:04:04 <alise> besides, shouldn't irc.py contain the IRC parser, not context.py? :P
21:04:06 <alise> really it should be client.py.
21:04:08 <alise> I should make it client.py.
21:04:43 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:10:16 <Sgeo_> DIE DIE DIE SgeoN1!
21:15:44 <alise> olsner: i /think/ the client should do the parsing actually
21:15:54 <alise> since it has fancy methods like .say(channel, 'blah')
21:16:00 <alise> so obviously it already does some irc translation
21:16:17 <alise> the problem is i have to come up with a structure to represent the parsing :) no wait i don't i can use context! yay!
21:17:55 * olsner seems to be doing well as the rubber duck
21:18:15 <alise> olsner: you can't buy amusing swedish rubber ducks!
21:18:25 <alise> anmaster is proof of this
21:19:54 <alise> olsner: Except, of course, that IRCClients don't know about the big bad Bot that puts them together, but Context needs the bot so that handlers can use it.
21:20:00 <alise> Yet IRCClients construct the Context.
21:21:19 <alise> olsner: I mean, I /could/ pass a reference to the Bot to the IRCClient, but the IRCClient has no reason to know i-- yes it DOES
21:21:26 <alise> Because it passes the Context on to the bot to handle it
21:21:35 <alise> You're the best, olsner, you know that?
21:22:15 <olsner> no, I don't know that :)
21:23:21 <Vorpal> <alise> olsner: you can't buy amusing swedish rubber ducks! <alise> anmaster is proof of this <-- err?
21:23:40 <alise> Vorpal: You're a Swedish rubber duck. You are not amusing.
21:23:42 <alise> Quod erat demonstrandum.
21:23:47 <alise> olsner: You do now!
21:23:57 <Vorpal> alise, but why do you think I'm a rubber duck?
21:24:04 <alise> Well, only rubber ducks are that dumb.
21:24:30 <alise> olsner: You fixed my architecture without saying a word!
21:24:46 <Vorpal> alise, it's a little known fact but rubber ducks are in fact highly intelligent, with an average IQ of 420
21:24:52 <Vorpal> not that IQ means much
21:25:12 <Vonlebio> And not that 420 is even a meaningful IQ.
21:25:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:25:38 <alise> DUCKS: Constantly stoned, and CONSTANTLY INTELLECTUAL.
21:25:56 <alise> When they're not smoking pot, their IQ is actually -83; just high enough to light up the next one.
21:26:03 <Vonlebio> Incidentally, random idea: Brainfuck compiler in Coq, like Compcert (?)
21:26:14 <alise> Vonlebio: It's not exactly hard to certify a Brainfuck compiler :P
21:26:46 <alise> Then extract it :P
21:26:50 <Vonlebio> http://www.labri.fr/perso/casteran/CoqArt/firebird.jpg
21:26:56 <alise> Vonlebio: btw, I think an IQ of 420 is theoretically possible
21:26:58 <Vonlebio> I hope like hell that's the real cover.
21:27:10 <Vonlebio> It's theoretically possible in the loosest sense.
21:27:15 <alise> http://www.amazon.com/Interactive-Theorem-Proving-Development-ebook/dp/B000QCUCZU
21:27:17 <alise> well, not this printing
21:27:18 <Vonlebio> It will never, but never, happen.
21:27:19 <alise> but maybe the first printing
21:27:26 <alise> Vonlebio: Post-singularity?
21:27:37 <alise> I don't see why not.
21:27:41 <Vonlebio> IQ is defined based on average intelligence.
21:27:49 <alise> But right after the Singularity.
21:27:52 <alise> Before it's been re-adjusted.
21:28:15 <alise> Or, the combined intelligence counting as one person, and all the billions of dumbfucks on planet Earth left behind.
21:28:26 <Vonlebio> In any case, I still don't think it would be sensible.
21:28:41 <Vonlebio> It would mean absolutely nothing, for one thing.
21:28:57 <alise> It would certainly mean something.
21:29:00 <alise> I don't see how it'd mean nt ohing.
21:29:06 <Vonlebio> "It's incomprehensibly intelligent. 420 IQ."
21:30:09 <Vonlebio> This is even assuming you can *have* an intelligence metric that applies to post-Singularity intellects.
21:30:20 <alise> Uh, just give it one of the standard IQ tests. :-D
21:30:23 <alise> (Yeah, that wouldn't work.)
21:30:27 <alise> (Maximum score and all that jazz.)
21:30:48 <Vonlebio> And of course, you wouldn't be able to calibrate it with the extant data.
21:31:18 <alise> Gahh, I hate cluttery .pyc files.
21:31:20 <alise> They make me want to kill.
21:31:39 <alise> They clutter up directory listings, tab complete, etc.
21:32:10 <olsner> IIRC, you can disable compilation somehow
21:32:12 <Vonlebio> Then just find . -name "*.pyc" | xargs rm every once in a while
21:32:32 <olsner> and/or disable saving the pyc files
21:32:44 <HackEgo> 174|<fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
21:32:53 <alise> olsner: yeah, but ...
21:32:58 <Vonlebio> How many of these quotes are from fungot?
21:32:59 <fungot> Vonlebio: it wouldn't be 120kloc long when i have this plan. thank you!"?
21:33:07 <Sgeo_> Either that's a mistake in this fanfic, or the author realized that Azula wouldn't know that tidbit
21:33:07 <alise> blame me (and a few others)
21:33:10 <alise> not that many actually
21:33:27 <Sgeo_> normish used to have a thing that listed the quotes
21:33:28 <alise> Sgeo_: Are you just doing this so we ask you what the hell you're talking about?
21:33:34 <HackEgo> 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
21:33:47 <Sgeo_> alise, clearly I'm talking about a fanfic
21:33:49 <HackEgo> 89|<Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
21:34:12 <alise> Sgeo_: Yes, but you seem to have absolutely no reason to talk about it here except to provoke us to ask questions. I will not be corrupted. :p
21:34:17 <Vonlebio> That is... the single most pointless quote yet.
21:34:41 <alise> not hilarious, but funny
21:34:41 <HackEgo> 124|<Warrigal> I cannot eat meat that isn't flat.
21:34:45 <alise> all the quotes are funny, but not hilarious
21:34:58 <fungot> Vonlebio: never mind, i typed 50% faster in dvorak than in qwerty after a while
21:35:00 <alise> Vonlebio: What is there to Windows but files and folders?
21:35:11 <olsner> no, it's not funny to me, it's just a fairly obvious observation about the nature of vim?
21:35:15 <alise> What is there to programming apart from drawing interfaces?
21:35:31 <alise> olsner: the context made it a bit clearer
21:35:41 <alise> Sgeo_ was treating vim like it was olde-style vi with barely any commands
21:37:13 <HackEgo> 182|<Quas_NaArt> Because you're a Mac user. <lacota> I am! and proud of it to <lacota> My mouse has *no* buttons.
21:37:30 <HackEgo> 208|* Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
21:37:35 <HackEgo> 212|<ais523> it was too difficult
21:37:40 <HackEgo> 60|<Sgeo> Mafia's addictin
21:37:44 <HackEgo> 194|<ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
21:39:47 <HackEgo> 147|<ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?)
21:39:52 <HackEgo> 80|<Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert.
21:39:55 <HackEgo> 168|<pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing?
21:40:03 <HackEgo> 24|<oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
21:40:07 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
21:40:11 <HackEgo> 130|<virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
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21:40:18 <alise> virtuhird is my favourite
21:40:22 <HackEgo> 163|<fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
21:40:27 <HackEgo> 94|* oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
21:41:15 <HackEgo> 47|<augur> augur: pretty true.
21:41:18 <HackEgo> 166|<oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
21:41:22 <HackEgo> 133|<apollo> (is it every teen girl's dream to be ravaged by a mythical beast? Does this explain the affection for unicorns?)
21:41:26 <HackEgo> 185|<AnMaster> oerjan, can you ever get any number higher than 3 at the start of "ordinary" [look-and-say sequences]? <ais523> it's not clear from the RFCs
21:41:31 <HackEgo> 36|<Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
21:42:24 <HackEgo> 206|<nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
21:42:34 <alise> olsner: QUOTED IN HACKEGO, RESOLVER OF ARCHITECTURES
21:42:39 <HackEgo> 25|`quote 48|<oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 123|[Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. 139|<ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes
21:42:45 <Vorpal> can we skip this spam please
21:42:49 <Vorpal> take it to /msg with the bot
21:43:04 <alise> Vonlebio: because it's fun annoying you
21:43:14 <Sgeo_> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4302297/1/In_His_Shoes
21:43:32 <alise> Sgeo_: I can barely contain my excitement.
21:44:08 <alise> Nobody can contain their excitement any more than barely!
21:45:27 <Quadrescence> alise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKj7tX_nMHQ
21:45:44 <Vonlebio> Why is sgeo linking to random fanfics?
21:46:05 <alise> Quadrescence: Yes, yes, you have the shitty Mac-based Lisp Machine.
21:46:11 <alise> COME BACK WHEN YOU HAVE A REAL LISPM.
21:46:49 <Quadrescence> the chip is faster than all other lispms except the XL
21:47:05 <alise> but the whole /point/ of buying a lisp machine is sticking a middle finger up at every conventional computer in usage
21:47:10 <alise> and even old macs are conventional
21:47:32 <Sgeo_> Does a modern lispm exist?
21:47:34 <Vonlebio> So the Lisp86 OS wouldn't be a true LispM?
21:47:43 <alise> not a lisp /machine/.
21:47:52 <alise> Sgeo_: only plans and designs.
21:48:00 <alise> the reduceron is a modern graph-reducer (for haskell)
21:48:07 <alise> random people. nothing very concrete
21:48:35 <Quadrescence> alise: I'd rather have this then paying 1000 shipping for something that is maybe 500 lbs
21:48:35 <Vonlebio> Why are the cool things abandoned?
21:48:55 <alise> Quadrescence: ehhh the old ones aren't that heavy are they
21:48:57 <alise> the really slow ones
21:49:04 <Vonlebio> Irritating people who go on about design patterns and OO?
21:49:04 <alise> Vonlebio: sturgeon's law must be upheld
21:49:09 <pikhq> Vonlebio: Because making money is not cool.
21:49:22 <alise> pikhq: you mean cool is not making money :P
21:49:38 <Quadrescence> alise: if you get a tower, then you must get a monitor and keyboard
21:49:44 <alise> Quadrescence: bah!
21:49:59 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
21:50:07 <Vonlebio> "I am far too noble a soul to care about money, but various crass and vulgar people insist upon it in return for goods and services" — Asimov (paraphrased)
21:50:09 <alise> Quadrescence: stanislav was, at one point, working on an adapter to use it with a regular lcd/mouse
21:50:59 <Quadrescence> On top of all that, there's no guarantee any of it work actually work: http://cgi.ebay.com/310236995571
21:51:09 <alise> Quadrescence: yeah, so buy a new one
21:51:33 <Quadrescence> alise: there isn't exactly a saturated supply of them
21:51:38 <alise> Quadrescence: yes there is
21:51:54 <alise> Quadrescence: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
21:52:05 <Quadrescence> I know; I've talked to him over the past 1.5 years
21:52:14 <alise> well, it's not like there's a huge demand.
21:52:21 <alise> and i'd say one from him is guaranteed to work
21:52:51 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:52:54 <alise> that hardly applies to me, i'm not even in the US :-P
21:53:49 <Quadrescence> alise: I think shipping is $150 too for *just* the tower
21:54:01 <alise> well if you don't want to waste money why buy a lispm :)
21:54:04 <pikhq> How... Fortuitous.
21:54:12 <pikhq> 缶 is Japanese for "can".
21:54:21 <alise> Yes, that's so... fortuitous?
21:54:38 <pikhq> s/fortuitous/coincidental/
21:54:47 <Quadrescence> if I don't want to waste money, why buy a lispm?
21:54:48 <alise> pikhq: But how is that even ... ?
21:55:00 <pikhq> alise: "can", the container.
21:55:18 <pikhq> alise: It just happens to be "kan" in Japanese.
21:57:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Not Engrish.
21:57:57 * oerjan has read that japanese for "so" is "so"
21:58:30 <alise> what does [M] in xchat's title mean?
21:59:08 * oerjan now waits for pikhq to explain how that's all misspelled, and only vaguely true. oerjan decides to finish this line even though it's half happened already.
21:59:25 <Vonlebio> OK, why has Proofgeneral's indentation behaviour changed all of a sudden?
21:59:32 <alise> Vonlebio: it's a bit screwy sometimes.
21:59:36 <pikhq> oerjan: Eh; the only misspelling was an ommision of all indications of vowel length.
22:00:05 <pikhq> And it's more than vaguely true. It has slightly different nuance, but it *is* "so".
22:00:16 * alise wonders how to handle capitalisation of karma
22:00:26 <alise> if someone says "PIKHQ++" the first time, should you be forever told that "PIKHQ has 3 karma"?
22:00:34 <alise> is getting from nicks practical, since they might be gone?
22:00:43 <alise> what about just lowercasing? how will Phantom_Hover feel about that
22:01:07 -!- augur has joined.
22:01:08 <coppro> alise: base it off the most recently seen capitalization?
22:01:12 <pikhq> That is pretty much *precisely* "So, what?"
22:01:14 <Vonlebio> alise, why would I feel about lowercasing?
22:01:42 <alise> Vonlebio: because "phantom_hoover"
22:01:51 <alise> coppro: seen? as in used to increase karma?
22:01:55 <alise> coppro: hmm, good idea, thanks
22:02:14 <pikhq> This is entirely coincidence.
22:02:18 <alise> coppro: if you do ".karma foo" it'll give back "foo has karma ..."
22:02:32 <pikhq> "Sou" is just one of the systematically-formed demonstratives in Japanese.
22:02:33 <alise> so basically all i need to do is echo the user
22:02:34 <alise> and store it lowercased
22:02:45 <alise> ooh, i need an @on_command now
22:04:43 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:04:44 <oerjan> with all those annotations it'll look like moo code...
22:05:09 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:05:34 <alise> yeah i really am a cow
22:05:37 <Vonlebio> I demand that £ be used for botte comands.
22:05:42 <alise> Vonlebio: actually, .
22:05:50 <alise> although some commands are verbal
22:05:57 <alise> botte: botte has a fear of introspection
22:06:06 <alise> <botte> botte has a fear of introspection
22:06:08 <alise> Vonlebio: no, all . :P
22:06:22 <alise> Vonlebio: all are "."
22:09:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:10:06 <alise> (i'd support multi-word karmas but i'm far too lazy ha ha ha)++
22:10:35 <alise> the plural of karma is karmæ
22:11:40 <alise> Vonlebio: just record meaningless, adjustable numbers
22:11:46 <alise> .karma Vonlebio -> 1
22:11:54 <alise> .karma Vonlebio -> -1
22:12:34 <Vonlebio> How does Coq deal with really really big nats?
22:13:41 <Vonlebio> I mean, for 1000000 does it actually create (S *1000000 0)?
22:13:43 <alise> (There are other number structures)
22:13:50 <alise> (there is a binary Z iirc)
22:13:54 <alise> (maybe a binary N too)
22:13:59 <alise> i know there's a binary z
22:14:01 <alise> may not be a binary n
22:15:52 <oerjan> Coq is based on a tiny kernel on purpose, surely they cannot afford to special case that.
22:17:02 <Sgeo_> Stupid unfinished fanfic!
22:18:02 <alise> oerjan: yeah, exactly
22:18:06 <Vonlebio> Well, they do, to some degree.
22:18:08 <alise> Vonlebio: look at the binary Z
22:18:29 <Vonlebio> "Warning: Stack overflow or segmentation fault happens when working with large
22:18:29 <Vonlebio> numbers in nat (observed threshold may vary from 5000 to 70000 depending on
22:18:29 <Vonlebio> your system limits and on the command executed)."
22:18:55 <Vonlebio> So there is some degree of special-casing.
22:19:13 <alise> how is that special casing
22:19:34 <oerjan> huh? surely that is happening precisely because Nats are _not_ special cased, but treated just like its definition...
22:19:50 <oerjan> which gives you a huge depth of S's
22:19:51 <alise> i think he means the warning is a special case
22:19:55 <alise> which is a bit stupid.
22:20:57 <Vonlebio> Ah, didn't get what you meant by "special case".
22:21:08 <alise> i.e. as part of the actual proof kernel
22:21:13 <alise> which, if it has a single flaw, is disasterous
22:21:32 <alise> agda regularly find bugs in their proof kernel because it's fucking gigantic :)
22:21:48 <alise> whereas coq's has been maturing since the 80s... like fine wine :p
22:26:05 <alise> (and based on a very small kernel)
22:26:54 <Vonlebio> What's Agda's kernel so busy doing?
22:27:05 <alise> a bunch of untested crap
22:27:10 <alise> that they didn't think to layer on
22:30:59 -!- nooga has joined.
22:43:53 <Sgeo_> Chrome can be so hateful sometimes
22:44:06 <Vonlebio> What does a verified compiler even do?
22:44:18 <Vonlebio> Prove that the generated code does what it says it does?
22:44:54 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:46:38 <augur> send me some links to stuff about coqs proof kernel
22:47:07 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:47:16 -!- sshc has joined.
22:52:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
22:56:28 <alise> augur: this is all from my brain
22:56:31 <alise> i don't have any links
22:56:38 <alise> augur: coq's is the calculus of inductive constructions
22:56:45 <alise> epigram 2's is observational type theory (but not with W-types)
22:56:52 <alise> as for the implementation, see the code :P
22:56:55 <alise> <Vonlebio> What does a verified compiler even do?
22:56:55 <alise> <Vonlebio> Prove that the generated code does what it says it does?
22:56:59 <alise> prove that it never compiles incorrectly
22:57:06 <alise> i.e., a given C program always compiles to the right assembly
22:57:12 <alise> i.e., the compiler is proven to compile properly
22:57:27 <alise> which is why compcert is so amazing
22:57:49 <alise> maybe they developed it on macs (it's a bit old)
22:57:59 <alise> maybe the machine code had some desirable property that made it easier
22:58:56 <Vonlebio> A certified BF compiler would actually be impossible, come to think of it.
22:59:06 <Vonlebio> Since it's compiling to a lower CC.
22:59:30 <Vonlebio> So there will always exist some BF program that can't be compiled.
23:00:21 <alise> oh you mean that c is not tc
23:00:40 <alise> Vonlebio: you could certify it as working "if we presume" that pointers have infinite range, though
23:00:46 <alise> which is a reasonable enough, although false, assumption to make
23:00:55 <alise> we're compiling down to C where sizeof(void *) is allowed to be 1, say
23:00:59 <alise> but it's actually infinitely big
23:01:09 <alise> it's just a coincidence that you can compile it as normal C most of the time
23:01:21 <alise> Vonlebio: you sleep too early
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23:08:24 <alise> anyone have a copy of bitstream charter?
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23:29:42 <alise> pikhq: Oh god install Bitstream Charter now.
23:29:49 <alise> (xorg-fonts-type1 on Arch, dunno about Gentoo.)
23:30:16 <alise> It's optimised for 300 dpi laser printers of the 80s, which means it looks good even at low resolutions.
23:30:20 <alise> Which makes it a beautiful screen serif.
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23:40:47 <alise> and this is interesting
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23:46:36 <alise> ha, there's an input_command_char setting
23:52:46 <alise> irc_skip_motd set to: 1
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23:54:30 <alise> coppro: WHY OH WHY
23:54:33 <coppro> it tells me the destination file doesn't exist
23:54:46 <alise> TRYING TO MAKE IT HOLY
23:54:56 <coppro> thanks, you made me feel better :)
23:55:14 <Sgeo_> The SCP Foundation is broken???
23:55:25 <alise> Sgeo_: HAHAHAHA FUNNIEST THING I EVER HEARD TWO SECONDS AGO
23:55:54 <alise> text_max_lines...............: 500
23:57:04 <alise> coppro: wild GUI opinion: reverse logarithmic scrollbar
23:57:19 <alise> this way, grows-to-infinity texts
23:57:21 <alise> like IRC with infinite backlog
23:57:29 <alise> will never have their scrollbar grow infinitesimally small
23:57:38 <alise> coppro: what i'm a genius
23:58:00 <alise> text_wordwrap................: ON
23:58:03 <alise> what a ludicrous setting
23:58:17 <alise> "no thank you, i'd like a horizontal scrollbar every other message, please"