00:02:01 <oerjan> yeah zipping sounds suspicious, probably some questionably legal activity
00:03:14 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:03:30 -!- alise has joined.
00:04:19 <SgeoN1> Note that it's not my dad claiming it, although he did decide he'd rather be safe than sorry
00:04:32 <alise> i think we've pretty much covered the "your dad is crazy" front
00:04:50 <oerjan> SgeoN1: no but he _would_ choose that kind of AV, wouldn't he
00:05:28 <SgeoN1> It was a few minutes ago, why would I remember?
00:07:30 <oerjan> this would be a good time for a pun on really wanting to buy coffee, if intel hadn't run that into the ground already
00:07:37 <alise> McAfee AV is probably the worst consumer product ever released.
00:07:41 <alise> oerjan: wait, what?
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00:08:09 <oerjan> well reddit, commenting on intel buying mcafee.
00:08:35 <alise> oerjan: how coffee tho :|
00:08:44 <alise> wait INTEL BOUGHT MCAFFE?
00:09:32 <SgeoN1> Hmm, I could take the place of the gone JokeExplainer
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00:10:07 <oerjan> alas, poor JokeExplainer. I knew him, barely.
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00:12:41 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/d3d8r/just_a_normal_day_for_an_intel_ceo
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00:12:52 <oerjan> it's in there somewhere, among the rest of the jokes
00:13:09 <Sgeo> alise, will you watch me fail at Crawl now?
00:13:39 <alise> Sgeo: as soon as i finish messing this up sure
00:13:54 <alise> [[Intel CEO: "We need antivirus, can someone buy me McAfee?" Few hours later: "Done." "Great, which version?" "Version ... ?"]]
00:14:06 <coppro> heard it at least twice already
00:14:12 <alise> yes, well, I had no idea they'd even bought McAffe until three seconds ago.
00:14:20 <oerjan> it wasn't knew when it was on reddit either
00:14:50 <pikhq> Antivirus programs are some of the worst consumer products ever released.
00:14:54 <oerjan> the McAffe misspelling should work so much better in german
00:15:04 <alise> how does gargoyle display better than my OS ...
00:15:08 <pikhq> McAfee is just worse than most others.
00:15:16 <alise> pikhq: nod32 is excellent on windows btw
00:15:32 <alise> you have to pirate it, but it takes up ~0 memory, is written entirely in assembly, and is one of the most effective for detecting shit there is
00:15:40 <alise> (1st or 2nd place)
00:17:02 <alise> Sgeo: well, or pay for it, I GUESS.
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00:18:26 <Sgeo> Ok, I'm back on Crawl
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00:18:40 <alise> Sgeo: telnet address?
00:18:58 <Sgeo> Not telnet, ssh
00:19:09 <Sgeo> crawl.akrasiac.org user joshua password joshua
00:19:17 <coppro> how do you use an arbitrary font in LaTeX?
00:19:24 <alise> bash: ssh: command not found
00:19:26 <alise> coppro: arbitrary what font?
00:19:31 <alise> coppro: TeX has its own font system
00:19:37 * Sgeo mindboggles at alise
00:19:40 <alise> if you want OpenType fonts, you have to use XeLaTeX
00:19:44 <alise> Sgeo: haven't installed it yet :)
00:19:57 <alise> coppro: so "google for a TeX version" basically.
00:20:01 <alise> there usually is one
00:20:04 <alise> + a supporting latex package
00:20:09 <coppro> dammit, I was afraid of that
00:20:19 <alise> coppro: you /could/ use XeLaTeX... but it kinda sucks
00:20:30 <alise> pikhq: yeah, but ...
00:20:32 <alise> why would you want to
00:20:51 <pikhq> Currently? No good reason; it's very much a work-in-progress.
00:21:17 <pikhq> In the future? Microtypography + OpenType. Need I say more?
00:21:34 <alise> Sgeo: you are impresent
00:21:39 <alise> pikhq: yeah but Lua :P
00:21:40 <Sgeo> alise, Sgeoster
00:21:49 <Sgeo> because I forgot that I registered Sgeo
00:22:05 <Sgeo> And I'm likely to die right now due to stupidity
00:22:27 <pikhq> alise: They're using it well, at least.
00:22:40 <pikhq> Though I strongly suspect a Scheme would be better-suited.
00:23:11 <Sgeo> alise, you're watching now?
00:23:24 <alise> it's just like nethack but boring!
00:23:29 <Sgeo> alise, boring? How
00:23:33 <Sgeo> It automates boring stuff!
00:23:43 <Sgeo> No price-ID, no Elbereth-spam
00:23:46 <alise> i'll have to write NetFuck
00:23:56 <alise> no Elbereth spam? but that's the whole fun thing about Elbereth
00:23:59 <Sgeo> Automated travel between levels
00:24:05 <alise> E-Elbereth<RET>E-Elbereth<RET>E-Elbereth<RET>E-Elbereth<RET>
00:24:27 <alise> serves him right for betraying nethack
00:24:39 <alise> which level is that
00:24:56 <Sgeo> alise, switching to the name Sgeo
00:25:45 <alise> Sgeo: psht, it's not as good as A Dungeon
00:26:16 <Sgeo> Demigod is a species
00:26:18 <Sgeo> alise, playing again
00:26:32 <alise> Sgeo: A Dungeon is my now-named roguelike!
00:26:38 <alise> for alise dungeon, obvs
00:27:05 <Sgeo> alise, you watching?
00:27:45 <Sgeo> 5 is rest until something interesting happens
00:27:56 <alise> i have to be up at 9 :)
00:28:08 <Sgeo> alise, should I start singing OpenBSD songs at you?
00:28:33 <Sgeo> corpses aren't food
00:28:37 <Sgeo> Unless they're cut
00:28:50 <Sgeo> And the cut corpses won't be eaten unless hungry
00:29:03 <Sgeo> And I wasn't expecting that
00:29:10 <Sgeo> Kind of obvious though, really
00:29:44 <alise> corpses should be food...
00:30:41 <Sgeo> Probably they're yelling at me for walking around with >100% health
00:31:27 <Sgeo> Well, that was pathetic
00:33:48 <Sgeo> Corpses are color-coded
00:33:55 <Sgeo> The green means it's poisonous
00:34:09 <alise> it sounds too easy
00:34:35 <Sgeo> Supposedly, spoiled NetHack is easier
00:34:46 <Sgeo> Also, it's meant to not need spoilers
00:35:00 <Sgeo> There's a lot of things the interface does for you
00:35:10 <Sgeo> Mechanics are obvious, etc.
00:35:26 <Sgeo> erm, obvious is the wrong word
00:41:31 <Sgeo> There's an escape hatch in the ceiling
00:44:04 <alise> Sgeo: Should I call my roguelike Squirm, or something else? :P
00:44:11 <alise> Crawl, Squirm, ...
00:44:23 <Sgeo> Only if it has a Crawllike UI
00:44:32 <Sgeo> Otherwise, name it something more hacky
00:44:56 <Sgeo> Whee, autoexplore
00:45:09 <alise> Sgeo: it has an it-like UI :P
00:45:32 <Sgeo> Are you watching me?
00:46:55 <Sgeo> Stupid cursed weapon...
00:47:48 <Sgeo> Well, that was a waste of a magic mapping
00:48:40 <Sgeo> Short range controlled (if by scroll) teleport
00:48:46 <Sgeo> Good for emergencies
00:48:51 <alise> why is it called a blink?
00:48:56 <Sgeo> I have no idea
00:49:03 <Sgeo> Well, most teleports in Crawl are delayed..
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00:54:33 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> ??Jessica
00:54:33 <Sgeo> <Henzell> jessica[1/1]: Early unique human wizard who is very easy to kill, but between haste, slow, pain, blink, and possibly a wand you might not get a chance. Either a pushover or worse than Sigmund, depending on the will of the RNG.
00:54:52 <alise> THE SCARIEST OF NAMES
00:55:01 <Sgeo> And she's dead
00:58:51 <Sgeo> Check out my non-diagonal non-orthogonal aim!
01:00:23 <Sgeo> alise, see this?
01:00:29 <Sgeo> It means I'm going to teleport soon
01:00:41 <alise> <Sgeo> Check out my non-diagonal non-orthogonal aim!
01:00:44 <alise> also, *non-cardinal
01:00:55 <Sgeo> alise, you weren't watching?
01:01:07 <alise> i mean how does that even work
01:01:28 <Sgeo> Also, if there was an enemy nearby, it would autoaim
01:03:11 <Sgeo> alise, it will autoaim, watch
01:03:46 <Sgeo> Well, this seems unhealthy
01:05:17 <Sgeo> alise, I'm going to make autoexplore skip that area
01:05:44 <Sgeo> As soon as I figure out how
01:08:13 <alise> GENTLY, ARCHAEOLOGY
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01:18:27 <Sgeo> Ok though, that worm may be trouble
01:18:41 <Sgeo> Anything yellow in inventory is an escape item
01:18:51 <Sgeo> I have four scrolls of teleportation
01:18:58 <Sgeo> They're not immediate though, so...
01:20:24 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Nono <-- double negative, so yes?
01:21:48 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Check out my non-diagonal non-orthogonal aim! <-- ?
01:23:39 <Sgeo> In NetHack, effects, including ranged attacks, can only go up, down, left, right, up-right, up-left, down-right, down-left
01:23:52 <Sgeo> Erm, screenwise I mean
01:34:12 <Sgeo> alise, I die...
01:40:38 <GreaseMonkey> it'd be interesting trying a knightspace renderer
01:57:23 <Sgeo> Oooh, an altar
01:57:29 <Sgeo> Sadly, altars don't do all that much
01:57:38 <Sgeo> Erm no, they do
01:57:46 <Sgeo> Just, I've been told to not do anything with them yet
01:57:54 <Sgeo> Apparently, it's how you convert to a religion
01:57:58 <Sgeo> And other stuff maybe?
01:58:02 <Sgeo> Not BUC testing though
01:58:19 <Sgeo> <Henzell> altar[2/2]: Unlike other roguelikes, you won't be sacrificing much - altars are generally only used for religious conversion. You also can't use them to discover curse status, sorry. Silly Hacker.
02:00:52 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> knight moves <-- right
02:01:03 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> it'd be interesting trying a knightspace renderer <-- hm?
02:01:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, of course you BUC test with an altar
02:01:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, assuming nethack that is
02:02:37 <Sgeo> YOu know what they say about assumptions...
02:02:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, asking rodney ?? altar
02:02:48 <Vorpal> gives way too many lines
02:02:55 <alise> Vorpal is retarded :p
02:02:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you said "<Sgeo> In NetHack, effects, including ranged attacks, can only go up, down, left, right, up-right, up-left, down-right, down-left" above
02:03:01 <Vorpal> thus I assumed nethack
02:05:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so which rougelike?
02:05:48 <Sgeo> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
02:06:08 <alise> Vorpal: *roguelike
02:07:36 <Sgeo> Was wandering around without full magic again
02:08:58 <Sgeo> My ghost killed someone else
02:10:39 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: i mean it'd be interesting trying to render a scene where you step by knight moves or something like that
02:11:30 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, render, as in 3D render?
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02:25:22 <Sgeo> I just want to slap coppro in here so that alise has a chance to either slap coppro or do some other alise-y thing that probably amounts to the opposite of a slap
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02:26:05 <alise> Sgeo: it's 2:21, i have to be up at 9, unfortunately, i am practically paralysed due to being creeped out
02:26:33 <Sgeo> Hopefully not by what I just said :/
02:26:38 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/d4gu8/askreddit_what_are_some_unexplainable_things_you/
02:26:57 <Sgeo> Also, I can always sing you an OpenBSD song
02:27:02 <Sgeo> I actually like the OpenBSD songs
02:27:54 <alise> i literally cannot move
02:28:18 <Sgeo> Back when I was twenty/They said I wouldn't last/All that I believed in/Were the teachings of the past
02:28:38 <Sgeo> All I ever wanted/Was to keep the world secure/And all the criticizing/Was something I'd endure
02:29:05 * Sgeo skips ahead a bit
02:29:21 <Sgeo> Some say that I'm a hero/But I'm just being me/With my filter I can hide/My true identity
02:30:20 <Sgeo> Welcome to the future/One very rich man/runs the Earth with/one multinational/owns your stuff/and owns your birth
02:31:11 <Sgeo> Way back in my time/Open source kept/everyone choosing/People knew the insides/Of devices they were using
02:31:34 <Sgeo> Go to sleep and I'll stop
02:40:22 <alise> yeah, not that easy when you're paralysed
02:40:38 <Sgeo> Should I summon a newt to bite you?
02:41:43 <coppro> alise: my scam worked!
02:41:56 <alise> (opposite of slap, Sgeo)
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11:17:56 <ais523> <bobmcbob> both the C# camp and the Java camp are desperately trying to use this lawsuit to "prove" that their language is superior.
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11:18:14 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if we can convert everyone to esolangs like that?
11:35:57 <fizzie> A peculiarity: if you /part from our official state religion, any less than 12 year old children automatically follow, which I guess makes sense; but apparently you can also forcibly dis-join such children (without even asking them) even if you're still going to stay as a member yourself.
11:36:35 <fizzie> I wonder if any homes use this as a sanction; "you'd better behave or I'll kick you out of the church".
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12:00:42 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? what is it they are suing about?
12:01:03 <ais523> alleged patent infringement in Android
12:01:11 * ais523 vaguely wonders how Vorpal managed to miss this
12:01:17 <ais523> it's been all over the tech news for about a week now
12:02:00 <Vorpal> ais523, btw did I mention that the ceiling in an auditorium at the university I attend fell down a few days ago? I had lectures in that very room this spring.
12:02:17 <ais523> that's sort-of embarassing for the ceiling manufacturer, actually
12:02:18 <Vorpal> ais523, maybe you weren't in here yesterday then
12:02:33 <ais523> people don't really want much from ceilings, but not falling is a major part of it
12:02:39 <Vorpal> ais523, they are apparently no longer in business according to the local paper
12:03:00 <Vorpal> (when the ceiling was replaced)
12:03:14 <fizzie> There's a company called ZenRobotics, a sort of a spin-off of people from this university department and others; it was called Zendroid at first, but Google was all "you can't call it that, we have this Android thing".
12:03:41 <fizzie> See e.g. the latest newspost at http://www.zenrobotics.com/?page=news -- they have a rather unserious way of writing "press releases", if you can call 'em that.
12:03:55 <fizzie> ""We're not saying that Mika was key for Google's success story, and we're not alleging that Google's withdrawal from China is in any way related to this coup de grace from our side. Then again, there are many things we are not saying or alleging!", says ZenRobotics's CEO Jaakko Särelä.
12:04:02 <fizzie> "Well, actually I was the Lead Developer for the Latitude China team, but I had nothing to do...", starts Mika when Head of Special Ops Mr. Peltomaa drops him handily with a swift blow to the neck. "Mika has no more comments on the matter as he's apparently unconscious", sums up Mr. Peltomaa. The press is requested to leave the ZenRobotics office, amid rumors of harsh censorship."
12:04:16 <fizzie> (They hired a guy away from Google, which is what the newspost is about.)
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12:59:01 <Vorpal> hm is there any esolang that specifies an upper length for valid programs? And is of trivial computational class (like HQ9+ or such)
12:59:40 <Vorpal> ais523, maybe you might know the answer to that?
13:00:15 <Vorpal> I realised that you can implement some such esolangs in file(1) but it has to be even more limited than HQ9+ for that
13:00:21 <ais523> hmm, original Malbolge, maybe
13:00:30 <Vorpal> ais523, flow control, too complicated
13:00:34 <ais523> but it's more a bounded-storage machine
13:01:06 <Vorpal> there must be a finite, and small, number of valid programs
13:02:01 <ais523> hmm, so you can compile into a lookup table?
13:02:33 <Vorpal> something like h: output "Hello, ", w: output "world", u: output "user", would work with the additional clause that every instruction must only be used once in a single program
13:03:06 <Vorpal> wouldn't need a full lookup table I think, some tricky submatches in file.magic would probably reduce the size of implementing it a bit
13:03:44 <Vorpal> ais523, but yes, more or less you need to encode it in lookup table for the code, you can use values from the file though in the output.
13:03:59 <Vorpal> Loops would be impossible unless you can look up all variants in a lookup table
13:05:39 <fizzie> You can do some pretty complicated things, according to man 5 magic.
13:06:27 <fizzie> Especially the test-type "indirect": "Starting at the given offset, consult the magic database again." And you can read the "given offset" from the file.
13:06:50 <Vorpal> maybe you could do loops then
13:07:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder what computational class it is in then
13:07:58 <fizzie> There's also some sort of offset that's updated by regex tests that might let you do conditionals. I haven't written any "code" for file, and the man page isn't horribly clear.
13:08:31 <fizzie> More conditionals than just the "if true, output a message; if not, then don't" sort.
13:08:39 <Vorpal> there is no memory though, so definitely sub-tc
13:12:25 <fizzie> Oh, right, there's that whole subtest hierarchy, so you can definitely do conditionals that do "indirect"-type test on different offsets depending on a main test. It's too bad there's only that one input file, and that one single offset pointer to it.
13:14:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm "Offsets do not need to be constant, but can also be read from the file being examined."
13:15:02 <Vorpal> seems you can get any constants from the file in memory, but arithmetics seems extremely limited
13:16:20 <fizzie> You can do the usual sort of arithmetics (+-*/%&|^) with one operand from the file, another a constant in the "source".
13:16:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but I still don't think you can really compute anything
13:16:57 <fizzie> But about the only sort of state you have is the offset to the file being examined.
13:18:47 <fizzie> I think it depends whether you want the magic(5) contents to be a fixed thing to execute a "program" in the file it's inspecting, or whether you're willing to allow a combination of specifically crafted file *and* a magic(5) "source" to be a "file(1) program" to compute something.
13:20:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, the latter sounds really hard to classify
13:20:31 <fizzie> Even in the latter case it sounds pretty tricky to do anything nontrivial.
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13:22:43 <fizzie> But, for example, if you make a file that has the bytes 0x00 0x01 0x02 .. 0xff, in order, then your magic(5) file can use the "current offset" value directly in the tests, since the value at the offset equals the offset. (Of course with the offset limited depending on how large a file you want.)
13:24:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can see how you would do HQ9+ except for Q and +... H9 hm... extremely silly language
13:25:30 <Vorpal> the issue with Q is that while you could do it, it would mess up the offset
13:25:41 <Vorpal> so you probably no longer have any clue where to continue the program
13:30:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure about that. The relative-offset (&0) tests are relative to "the last up-level field", so if in a ">>&0 string Q" you detect the command, in a ">>>"-level test you could then print out the complete file, if it's possible to do so with one test. Still, I haven't completely thought this through. And even HQ9 is still pretty boring.
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13:32:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, you will need a indirect match to continue though, no?
13:34:28 <fizzie> No, I think you just need to do something like ">&1 indirect" entry, where that's on a level where the Q execution hasn't messed up the correct value of "&n"; I think "&1 indirect" should mean "starting from the next byte, consult the database again".
13:34:56 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to make it terminate; I don't know what values the tests "return" if you refer to outside the file.
13:36:09 <fizzie> It might even be that the "consult the magic database again" means that on the second run, constant-offset "0" would refer to what was the parameter of indirect. It's not very well documented in this manpage.
13:40:35 <fizzie> It seems to, which would make "Q" very hard to do in the simple architecture where you'd continue with ">1 indirect" after each matched HQ9 command. Because I don't know how you could get to the real beginning of the file to print it out.
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13:41:55 <fizzie> Right, if you just do a 0 regex .* %s, it will only print the half of the file starting from the Q.
13:43:00 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ZbaY
13:43:30 <fizzie> Maybe if you just respec the Q command to be a "half-quine"; at least it's novel and new and other synonyms.
13:43:58 <fizzie> (There's some newline issues in that example, but those are minor.)
13:53:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, it prints out <newline>?
13:53:59 <fizzie> Yes, I'm not sure how to stick a literal newline in there, if it's possible at all.
13:54:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could make the interpreter command a bit more complex, like appending sed 's/<newline>/\n/g' or such
13:57:57 <fizzie> You can replace the "0 regex .* %s" with the potentially more appealing "0 string >\0 %s"; I think both have the problem that they don't match across newlines, but you can just strip those from the hq9 source. Still, the "half-quine" problem is a worse one.
14:01:49 <fizzie> If you use "indirect" to restart the processing, I'm not sure how to get around that. If you move the "starting offset" forward to use it as an IP, it doesn't seem possible to get back to earlier parts of the file; but if you do "indirect" with a start offset of 0, it is as if you'd start the whole thing from the beginning, since there's no state you could use to distinguish from where you were.
14:04:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, 99 bottles seems to break it hm
14:04:08 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't add 9 in at all.
14:04:11 <Vorpal> a few lines of it work, but more and it prints it incorrectly
14:04:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I added it
14:04:31 <fizzie> Maybe it has some length limits in there.
14:04:39 <Vorpal> hq9.magic, 3: Warning: description `99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer.<newline>Tak' truncated
14:05:27 <Vorpal> hq9.magic, 4: Warning: offset `l, 42 bottles of beer.<newline>Take one down and pass it [...] Go to the store and buy some more, 99 bottles of beer on the wall.<newline>' invalid
14:05:46 <fizzie> Does it happen if you do it with multiple messages? Something like "0 string 9" followed by ">0 default x first line of song", ">0 default x second line of song", ...?
14:06:03 <fizzie> ("offset default x" should be a test that always matches.)
14:07:52 <fizzie> It might still truncate the full message, though.
14:08:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems to not print the default one
14:08:32 <Vorpal> wait, maybe I'm doing it wrong
14:08:42 <Vorpal> ah yes needs the x test
14:09:04 <fizzie> Yes, "default" is just the data type.
14:11:05 <Vorpal> <n>Take one down and pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the is the max length hm
14:17:50 <fizzie> Apparently if you use an indirect offset with the indirect type -- something like ">(0.b) indirect" -- it ignores the current starting offset from the previous "indirect", and instead uses the offset read from the file directly. So if you have a 0 there, you'll get back to the real beginning of the file. But it still doesn't help, since there's no state, and when you're back at the beginning of the file, it's exactly identical as when you first ran it; so you c
14:17:50 <fizzie> an't go back to where you were.
14:18:03 <fizzie> Also, there's a bus I need to catch; away for now, back late in the evening. ->
14:26:11 <fizzie> Assuming you can do a relative indirect offset (I think you can), and are allowed to do a simple transformation, which unfortunately will take N*S*A of size (where N is the length of the input, S is the number of states, and A the size of the input alphabet), I think you can do a FSM. :p
14:27:35 <fizzie> (Basically, you'd use the current offset to denote both the position in input as well as the state -- giving N*S places -- and in each place put the transition table of that state, which of course has A entries.)
14:29:26 <fizzie> Of course anything capable of comfortably building the special input file would probably be more than enough to directly do the FSM itself. But at least the magic db would be very simple, and generic.
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15:30:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, current hq9 file: http://sprunge.us/BNUe
15:31:03 <Vorpal> hm there seems to be an issue with adding a space at the start of lines
15:31:42 <Vorpal> need to move <n> about
15:38:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, here is a new version http://sprunge.us/gXJf
15:38:34 <Vorpal> including the wrapper script
15:51:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm it might be able to do Q
15:51:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, by heavy preprocessing
15:52:44 <Vorpal> basically insert a the length to end of file after ever Q pointing to the end of the file (after taking these length fields into account of course), then append the original source, That way you could get the original source by using that offset
15:53:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, that ammount of pre-processing makes it "not really file(1) any longer" though
15:54:21 <Vorpal> hm you could mark it with a # (you need to know when to stop reading the file anyway, so you need a marker somewhere) and then use search and skip the length value
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16:06:57 <Vorpal> this seems to work assuming no newlines in input file
16:07:06 <Vorpal> could of course escape those
16:10:21 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:28:50 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, the *simplest* way to go to college in the US without being in debt forever is to get married. ← a solution appears immediately.
16:11:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, married? how so?
16:12:11 <Vorpal> as in "why would getting married help avoid debt?"
16:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> That's easy enough if you can find someone of the opposite sex who also wants into college.
16:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, in the logs he said it was because they calculated things based on your own income and assets rather than with those of your parents added.
16:13:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, this one works assuming no | in the input source file: http://sprunge.us/NKiR
16:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I think in Scotland university is actually free for Scottish students.
16:15:25 <Vorpal> in Sweden it is free for students from EU (or was it from Schegen maybe?)
16:16:04 <Vorpal> like EU + Norway, Switzerland, Listenstein and one or two other countries
16:16:36 <Vorpal> it used to be free for students outside EU too, but this is the last year of that.
16:18:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah it is "Schengen"
16:18:31 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
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16:57:07 <leBMD> greetings, #esoteric.
17:01:35 -!- derdon has joined.
17:02:15 <leBMD> So, how about them yankees?
17:05:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice, was he going to enable that thing?
17:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> And that if he didn't respond for a month, to email him again.
17:07:10 <leBMD> So, here's a random poll: what languages are you guys currently doing?
17:07:38 <leBMD> when I say "currently doing" I mean "maybe messing around every once in a while"
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17:09:48 <Vorpal> leBMD, do you count "implementing interpreters for" as well as "programming in"?
17:10:37 <leBMD> I've been doing Befunge, along with contemplating ways to make a Noobinary interpretor.
17:10:41 <Vorpal> befunge98, brainfuck, INTERCAL and a few more. Special for today is implementing HQ9+ in file(1)
17:11:29 <Vorpal> while file(1) is in no way esoteric, this usage of it is
17:11:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do tell what?
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17:12:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well it is a joint effort with fizzie really
17:12:37 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> fizzie, this one works assuming no | in the input source file: http://sprunge.us/NKiR
17:12:42 <Vorpal> yeah needs a wrapper script
17:12:45 <Vorpal> otherwise Q won't work
17:13:04 <Vorpal> since the only state you have is your current offset, and you need to read the whole file somehow for Q
17:13:13 <Vorpal> of course + is a dummy-implementation due to this
17:15:11 <leBMD> I'm thinking about making an interpreter for it.
17:15:30 <leBMD> It wouldn't be too hard. It would just need a 1D vector for the stack, and a couple other things.
17:15:51 <leBMD> quick fact: I'm the one who made noobinary.
17:16:06 <leBMD> ...which is probably why it's not very creative. XD
17:19:08 <leBMD> Yes, it's in the language list. It's made to resemble binary, but be easier to read.
17:21:44 <Vorpal> "Noobinary is an esoteric language designed by user Batmanifestdestiny to resemble Binary, but be easier to learn. " <-- Binary does not seem to be another esolang hm.
17:22:01 <Vorpal> so what is it referring to? The number system?
17:23:02 <Vorpal> such as jpeg images yes
17:23:07 <leBMD> Binary, other than the numbering system, is the very basic core of programming.
17:23:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I tend to say "programs" "executables" "object files" or such
17:23:56 <leBMD> Well, considering it's the series of electrons going through the CPU, I'd say it's pretty basic. ;)
17:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, binary is just the way machine code is represented.
17:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The lowest level of abstraction is effectively assembly.
17:24:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe I use binaries in the sense "unknown/arbitrary digital data on a binary computer" but that is it. Oh and the erlang data type binary, which is exactly that, arbitrary byte-stream that you can interpret however you want
17:24:46 <Vorpal> well byte stream is the most common source/destination I guess
17:25:03 <Vorpal> it is not a stream in the sense of an open FILE* in C
17:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I would define it as a file not intended to be readable with a flat text encoding.
17:26:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm so how do you classify that uudecode *.com that consisted of only printable chars?
17:26:12 <Vorpal> I think ais linked to it a few years ago
17:26:32 <Vorpal> iirc he (or maybe someone else, don't remember) wrote it for sending over usenet, to people lacking uudecode
17:26:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by your definition it is not a binary?
17:26:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Given that the file offset is the only thing that could even concievably be called "accumulator" there, and + increments it (as do all other commands, of course), it's a reasonable implementation.
17:27:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, still the issue of | in the input file
17:27:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, would need a bit more complex escaping to handle it properly
17:28:15 <leBMD> Oh gosh, my cat is meowing in her sleep.
17:28:21 <fizzie> The "include source with marker" is also a bit cheaty, but, well, understandable also.
17:28:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think we more or less exhausted all possible alternatives to it
17:31:51 <fizzie> If you set an upper limit to program length, you can so something inelegant like including the H, Qa9
17:31:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, any progress on jitfunge btw?
17:32:05 <fizzie> and 9 handlers separately for each offset.
17:32:21 <fizzie> Nothing to report on that front. :/
17:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely you can do JITfunge with an existing compiler with a hook stuck onto the p instruction?
17:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Compile it, stick the result into a buffer, call, when p is executed, recompile.
17:33:43 <fizzie> There aren't that many existing befunge compilers either.
17:34:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how would you handle ~~x then?
17:35:03 <Vorpal> yes an extreme example, but x and j are both problematic even without parameters taken directly from user input
17:35:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, pop dy and dx and set the delta to that
17:35:36 <Vorpal> and j pops a parameter n then jumps forward n*current_delta, n might be negative
17:36:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Flick to interpretation until the delta has settled again?
17:36:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, befunge93 you could feasibly compile all 4 cardinal directions for, but 98? no way
17:36:44 <Vorpal> since it has arbitrary delta thanks to x
17:36:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and jitfunge is 98...
17:37:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so 93-only is not really relevant for this discussion
17:38:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, besides you might think implementing + as straight forward, but then you forgot that popping on empty stack pops 0. So you need to check for that
17:38:43 <fizzie> Recompiling absolutely everything on each change doesn't sound so incredibly clever. And I'm not claiming there to be any sort of theoretical reasons why JITting befunge would be somehow incredibly difficult, just that it is not entirely trivial either.
17:39:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, what is that strangeness you do with mmap? IIRC recent linux introduced a guard page below the stack and above the heap. Recent = 2.6.35
17:39:16 <Vorpal> not sure if this might mess up for you
17:39:22 <Vorpal> but it made lvm spit warnings
17:39:39 <Vorpal> need to reboot to 2.6.25.3 soon, it has a fix for lvm doing that
17:39:48 <fizzie> (At least if you want to (within limits) minimize the amount of needless recompilation.)
17:40:27 <fizzie> Dunno, I mmap in the middle of nowhere and put my own guard pages around the b98 stack, I don't see why that should be a problem.
17:40:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't say JITing was increadibly difficult. What I suggested was that Phantom_Hoover's approach to the problem was infeasible.
17:41:00 <Vorpal> that said, JITing is _quite_ difficult at least. Even for non-befunge
17:43:10 <fizzie> The mmap-segfault-autocheck stack is broken anyway with the llvm codegen at the moment, since the handler needs to understand all the different operations that could try to access the stack (to fake the stack pointer as if a zero was returned without it moving), and you never quite know what the llvm code will turn into. It might need some more llvm-digging.
17:44:48 <fizzie> I optimize pop+push -> peek, which also complicates it a bit, since a "peek" operation on empty stack should actually do push 0.
17:45:49 <fizzie> Not that many programs probably care whether there's a "real" zero on the bottom of the stack, on top of the imaginary ones. But it certainly has an observable effect.
17:46:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, mycology cares (it checks with y)
17:48:03 <fizzie> Mycology is a bit special that way. I mostly meant the huge amount of B98 applications that are used all around the globe and ha wouldn't it be nice if there actually were any?
17:48:16 <fizzie> Besides fungot, anyway.
17:48:17 <fungot> fizzie: you can not implement scheme using a java irc library :d) there just would be kewl.). it has awk macros, a wonderful typo, imho)
17:48:54 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's very easy to get the interface of the sicp
17:54:13 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: got a microphone? i might need a bit of ratpoison advocacy slip out there. similar logic applies to physical theories: that's why you agree to these patches going into the kitchen and starts making a lot of
17:54:55 <fizzie> Cool but sometimes a bit incoherent.
17:55:33 <fizzie> This might be an old thing, but from #anotherchannel: http://bit.ly/9DBmOT -- (a maps.google.com link)
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17:59:02 <fizzie> It looks as if it is achieving warp speed.
17:59:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume the different colours are captured sequentially?
18:00:21 <Phantom_Hoover> And the brightness slightly later, by the looks of it.
18:00:49 <fizzie> I don't know about brightness, but it does look like they take R, G and B pictures at different moments.
18:01:26 <fizzie> One would think that "brightness" comes from the sum of it, though; it's not like they could physically speaking capture the chrominance and luminance information separately in any sensible way.
18:04:21 <fizzie> Oh, right, that. Yes, I think they could be taking one more "monochrome" picture with no filters to get better luminance resolution, or some such thing.
18:04:57 <fizzie> I had managed to miss the "outline" part completely somehow.
18:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "Parts of its functionality are almost copy-pasted from CCBI, and I think AnMaster trusts CCBI a bit more than he should. In some cases, this means that CCBI bugs remain in it for some time. But that does help it in getting a full pass from Mycology." ← is this true?
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18:43:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe I did more or less copy parts of 3DSP at that time since I had not yet learnt matrix math. Apart from that: no, though in cases were the standard were unclear I used it as a reference implementation.
18:43:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so I would call it quite an exaggeration.
18:44:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well you would say that! It's just like the evolutionists!
18:44:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, however, I did credit him where credit was due, and one of the point of open source is sharing :P
18:46:08 <fizzie> And "sharing" is just another word for "stealing"! (They even begin with the same letter.)
18:47:42 <fizzie> Is this the I-consider-it-just-a-fake remote-controlled thing?
18:48:05 <fizzie> It's not real "robot wars" unless autonomous, amoral killing machines are involved.
18:50:05 <Vorpal> why can't they just make them autonomous?
18:50:18 <Vorpal> it would make it way more interesting
18:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It would, but that would require decent programmers as well as mechanics.
18:50:52 <fizzie> Or it could make it way more boring, given how dull e.g. robot soccer is.
18:51:04 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: can you credit me... no problem for a fnord
18:51:21 <fizzie> Ow, that's quite a thing to be known for.
18:51:30 <cheater99> i'm just looking at the fizzie nick
18:51:40 <cheater99> and i can see it does not belong in here
18:52:09 <cheater99> i think i should go to the city or sumptin
18:52:43 <fizzie> Oh noes, I am INTRUDING. Perhaps even EXTRUDING.
18:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> If they could self-repair, then it would become awesome^2.
18:58:11 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> It would, but that would require decent programmers as well as mechanics. <-- um yes?
18:58:34 <Vorpal> I fail to see the problem with that
18:58:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how is that a bad thing?
19:00:08 <fizzie> There's less to watch. It's about entertainment, after all.
19:00:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, expand the area of coverage, then split it up in loads of sub-matches
19:00:36 <Vorpal> they manage to do that with football after all
19:00:41 <Vorpal> and that is ever 4th year iirco
19:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, these things are very complex; custom stuff, etc.
19:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Designing strategies would be much harder than for football.
19:01:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, football is also very complex, I never managed to understand what "offside" is.
19:01:42 <fizzie> Also, and this is just a guess, but I doubt they'd be so free about installing the kill-and-maim hardware I assume those things have (I don't really follow any of the shows) if they weren't just remote-controlled toys.
19:02:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, after that I gave up on football so no clue
19:02:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The rules are static, the hardware is basically the same and there's not many possible strategies.
19:02:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like football?
19:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> For a destructive arena game, you have a huge range of opponents, you have unique hardware.
19:03:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but you could of course make rules more flexible, if you make the bot autonomous you have to change the rules anyway
19:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to be self-correcting, in case a wheel gets ripped off.
19:03:42 <Vorpal> of course, or use a different traction system
19:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to be able to adapt strategies for each opponent.
19:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to take into account the state of the opponent, since they might themselves have a wheel ripped off.
19:04:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it is more like judo or perhaps boxing?
19:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> There are a huge range of variables here, all of which have to be coded.
19:05:03 <fizzie> I'd still watch it, even with imperfect autonomous killer machines, but I do think they get participants easier this way.
19:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> And you can't just stick a supercomputer into it; your computer needs to be inside the machine and needs to be shielded.
19:05:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, self adapting robots do exist
19:05:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so you don't have to code for absolutely everything
19:06:10 <Phantom_Hoover> You couldn't use plastics or anything, they'd be ripped to shreds by a nice, big saw.
19:06:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also, modern computers are quite powerful. Even a mobile CPU
19:06:47 <Vorpal> and you don't exactly need 8 hours of battery life there
19:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you're also running a large lump of metal with drive systems and armour.
19:07:57 <Vorpal> true, hm... Why not allow the program to run from a remote system, but once the match started it is hands off?
19:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you could have a human "mission control" who can adapt the overall strategies on the fly.
19:08:11 <Vorpal> and yes that could be allowed
19:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, again, suppose a tyre or something is damaged?
19:08:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, guess why tanks do not use tyres!
19:08:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why not use a similar traction system to that
19:09:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it would however be way more cool
19:09:22 <fizzie> And again, the entertainment value: look at this RoboCup video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICgL1OWsn58 -- I guess it could be considered interesting to look at, but exciting mainstream TV it isn't.
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19:09:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and correcting for damaged drive isn't terribly difficult
19:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. in a fight, you are likely to sustain damage that makes your old tactics ineffective.
19:10:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so that is where mission control comes into it
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19:10:32 <Phantom_Hoover> That could actually be workable, though still difficult.
19:11:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway you basically want armour, lots of it traction a bit inwards from the sides, low GC, some way to flip over if you end up upside down (not hard) and some weapon.
19:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, yes, those are basically the requirements for the existing things.
19:12:20 <Vorpal> often called GC in aircraft context
19:13:00 <Vorpal> did you know that the Concorde pumped fuel during flight to change the GC along the forward/aft axis
19:13:14 <Vorpal> primarily to avoid the drag from trimming the normal way
19:13:50 <Vorpal> (the normal way would be to angle the control surfaces from the "flat" position, but that induces drag)
19:14:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and the software for that wouldn't be too complex
19:14:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well true, but sensors are light compared to the rest
19:15:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and power usage is also rather low compared to the movement
19:16:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well the gyro and such definitely can
19:16:25 <Vorpal> and camera probably could too
19:16:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You can transform into food?
19:16:44 <fizzie> Well, I guess people are technically speaking food too.
19:16:53 <Vorpal> was just about to say that
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19:18:44 <Vorpal> a small IR camera in each direction wouldn't be too hard. it would take a lot of luck for the opponent to hit a recessed square of hardened glass about 0.5x0.5 cm
19:18:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, remember that the opponent also is AI controlled
19:18:59 <Vorpal> which actually lowers the bar
19:19:42 <fizzie> No, it just means that both opponents can't really fight very well, which makes for non-flashy battling.
19:20:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed, but it is a lot more interesting of course
19:20:09 <fizzie> Interesting for us, maybe. :p
19:21:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you would need gyroscope or just some simpler way to detect being upside down, such as this:
19:21:22 <Vorpal> that is in the upside down position, would fall down
19:21:41 <Vorpal> and if you built it the right way, being on edge is unlikely
19:21:47 <Vorpal> so you don't even need a gyroscope
19:22:23 <Vorpal> you do however need some odometer, but that is cheap and trivial to attach to the drive, and some position sensing of your weapon (depends on what sort of weapon)
19:24:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm... I would suggest using some titanium alloy for the armour... Quite light, strong, and not very brittle
19:24:46 <fizzie> Making sense of the real world even badly (well, for some values of "bad" that still let you do at least *something* sensible) is pretty nontrivial, though. I guess for a fixed-environment arena you could get something done with a drive-odometer (though wouldn't the derived position information start to drift there too?), but understanding what the opponent is doing is going to be pretty tricky.
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19:25:26 <Vorpal> probably with a metal skeleton below
19:25:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I was getting to that
19:26:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suggest a laser 3D scanner if that is feasible
19:26:23 <oerjan> <cheater99> it's an intruder <-- that's quite something to say about the channel's top present admin...
19:26:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, otherwise some IR camera
19:27:00 <Vorpal> that takes care of where the opponent is
19:27:12 <Vorpal> and perhaps also what it is doing
19:27:14 <oerjan> of course there _could_ have been a hostile takeover involved.
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19:27:27 <fizzie> oerjan: You're on the same level in the food chain, aren't you?
19:27:36 <fizzie> Oh, but you weren't here at that moment.
19:27:56 <oerjan> fizzie: i am? wasn't it you who made me op?
19:28:12 <fizzie> I don't remember doing that, but I could be wrong.
19:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, re armour etc., these details have been worked out.
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19:28:30 <oerjan> hm in that case maybe it's lament who is the top present admin
19:28:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, titanium alloys with supporting steel skeleton seems like the best bet
19:28:49 <fizzie> -ChanServ- 2 fizzie +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
19:28:50 <fizzie> -ChanServ- 3 lament +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
19:28:50 <fizzie> -ChanServ- 5 oerjan +votsriRfA [modified 26 weeks, 3 days, 21:05:35 ago]
19:29:07 <fizzie> We all have the same flags. (I don't know how the numbering is determined, though.)
19:29:15 <oerjan> it doesn't say who did it, though...
19:29:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, look it up. The RC models will do it better than you can make up in an afternoon.
19:29:58 <Vorpal> chanserv not in here and freenode doesn't use that module anyway
19:29:59 <oerjan> hm so does that mean i could actually lift someone else up to my level as well? i thought i was some kind of under-op
19:30:24 <fizzie> Under-dog. But yes, I think that's all the flags you can have, except the "founder" flag that andreou has.
19:30:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes you have +f
19:30:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, /msg chanserv help flags
19:30:55 * oerjan cackles evilly on principle
19:31:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, titanium might be a bit expensive though
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19:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm... perhaps robots could broadcast some information on their position and location.
19:31:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just use LIDAR
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19:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, look, making the robot ascertain complex details like direction and identity from the poor sensors you have suggested is going to be really difficult.
19:33:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Laser gyro should take care of it better than anything else
19:33:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for position and orientation
19:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> For its own position and orientation, not that of the others.
19:33:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of course you could use 4 radio beams, one in each corner of the arena, and then just do what GPS does
19:34:00 <Vorpal> a lot simpler than the full thing a GPS does
19:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but then you have to know where your opponents are.
19:34:20 <Vorpal> you don't have to wory about terrain, elevation, multi-path (well maybe that to some degree)
19:34:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is where radar or lidar or similar comes into it
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19:35:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or why not a sonar?
19:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I am a robot. I want to know where the other robots are, what direction they are pointing and how fast they are going.
19:36:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, radar, lidar and sonar can all answer that
19:37:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, directly for position, speed and direction by integrating over time
19:37:54 <fizzie> And what about the flames shooting out of the ground, and holes that sometimes open there? (I looked at this first youtube-hit for robot wars -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA_z51dlPQU -- and the arena is a lot unfriendlier than your standard robot-soccer field.)
19:38:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, then you could try to do image processing to figure out the shape. You could load 3D models of the opponents in advance
19:38:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or why not require them to have a blue spot on the front
19:38:33 <Vorpal> well then you need visual camera, no big issue
19:38:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I fail to see the point of those flames
19:39:13 <fizzie> Hah! Image processing objects out of grainy, noisy, messy, blurry visual images is *really* something that your average remote-controlled robot enthusiast is not going to be able to write.
19:39:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, well okay, so why not require it to be painted in radar absorbing paint at the front?
19:40:01 <Vorpal> well not the whole front of course
19:40:10 <fizzie> Because that's a lot more boring?
19:41:10 <fizzie> And again, personally I'd watch a lot less visually flashy autonomous-robot murder-o-death-o-matchery, but not everyone would.
19:41:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Though some degree of environmental control could be interesting.
19:43:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the sound quality is horrible
19:43:43 <Vorpal> I have no idea what they said really
19:43:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and increadibly boring
19:44:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... you told me to watch it above
19:44:11 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, please watch that video.
19:44:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, extremely boring
19:45:06 <Vorpal> yes that is the interesting part
19:45:30 <fizzie> Yeah, they should be reviewing the code for both bots before the match! That's sure to hook in the viewers.
19:45:35 <Vorpal> the people building the hardware would need to team up with people working on software, unless they are skilled at both
19:46:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, reviewing hm? Why?
19:46:09 <fizzie> Because it's the interesting part, of course.
19:46:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, they could publish it as bonus material on their site, and then discuss the interesting parts on the show
19:47:11 <Vorpal> oh and the sound level needs to go down. any sport where audience is louder than in Tennis is basically not interesting
19:47:23 <Vorpal> not sure why I hit shift there
19:47:28 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Nerdiest non-existent thing ever.
19:47:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so we have a win-win situation!
19:47:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and of course they could review the hardware as well as the software
19:48:04 <Vorpal> both parts are interesting
19:48:05 <fizzie> No, but I have an amb-eval here somewhere.
19:48:40 <fizzie> But by all means, do make it happen. I'll even watch it, if it's watchable over the interwebs.
19:48:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who said US? I aimed for world wide coverage. Anyone who is interested, from any country can join. After all, it isn't like the olympics is US only is it?
19:49:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, amb-eval sounds familiar... hm?
19:49:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's what SICP calls that nondeterministic backtracking thing.
19:49:39 <Vorpal> scheme macro, backtracking?
19:49:59 <fizzie> I guess it could be used in related non-SICP Scheme contexts too.
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19:50:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm sure we are not alone
19:50:25 <Vorpal> besides you don't need to focus on the software in the TV show
19:50:26 <fizzie> Actually it seems to have been "ambeval", to be more accurate.
19:51:50 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Where's that AMBITION of yours now, huh!?
19:51:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you could of course make each bot send out it's position if you want, that might make things a bit simpler. Especially since there seems to be more than two robots at a time
19:52:02 <Vorpal> I was considering duels
19:52:22 <Vorpal> where keeping track of one opponent with sensors wouldn't be TOO hard
19:52:27 <fizzie> (Oh, it's both: the evaluation procedure is "ambeval", but the prompts it prints out say "Amb-Eval".)
19:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH with those levels of destruction, it's basically all or nothing.
19:53:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm... that makes for fewer shows
19:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But we're approaching this with selective practicality
19:54:15 <Vorpal> multiple opponents changes the whole thing
19:54:23 <Vorpal> in fact a robot might be better than a human at that
19:54:38 <Vorpal> A CPU has no issues with keeping tracks of many things at once
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20:05:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, that robocup thing was a lot more interesting than the robowars thingy
20:06:04 <Vorpal> well, haven't watched the complete movie
20:06:10 <Vorpal> I get like 2 kB/s on it
20:06:18 <Vorpal> so still not completely downloaded
20:17:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes but I didn't understand what you meant by that
20:23:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, robocup?
20:23:44 <Vorpal> or do you mean robowars?
20:23:54 <Vorpal> how can anyone be nostalgic about that... crap
20:24:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which series?
20:24:55 <Vorpal> they seem more insane towards the later ones
20:26:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I now pinned down your age that to "was around 5 at some point between 1994 and 2004"
20:27:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so how old are you, that way I can tell which series it was
20:28:39 <fizzie> They have semi-recently (note more than a couple of years ago) started showing one of those shows on some Finnish TV channel; but it might not be Robot Wars exactly, since there are some others, like BattleBots.
20:29:12 <Vorpal> so 2004 is unlikely, 10 years as minimum means 1990-2000 (excluding possible off by one errors due to later/earlier during the year than the current day and month)
20:29:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Although we'll need to prevent midgets being used instead of computers.
20:29:41 <Vorpal> (after all I'm 20, but later this year I will be 21)
20:30:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why don't they make robots that can climb out of that pit btw?
20:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I always wondered why noöne had integrated a radio jammer.
20:31:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, probably against the rules
20:32:33 <fizzie> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Wars_%28TV_series%29#Arena_and_hazards falling into the Pit of Oblivion is instant disqualification.
20:32:38 <fizzie> So no use climbing up there.
20:32:49 <fizzie> (Besides, it sounds like a lot more added complexity for pretty little benefit.)
20:33:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about folding out arms so that you hang above, and never fell into it
20:33:30 <Vorpal> then you could climb back
20:34:20 <fizzie> Possibly the pit wasn't such a huge hazard. I'unno.
20:34:48 <Vorpal> for added armour I mean
20:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, you have a motor in there as well as the computer.
20:36:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well didn't we agree on putting the computer off the arena? But running an AI, with no human interaction once the battle started
20:36:19 <Vorpal> you still probably want a low power CPU in it
20:36:25 <Vorpal> for some local processing
20:36:35 <Vorpal> a high end ARM would be perfect
20:36:44 <Vorpal> such as used in high end phones
20:37:17 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, the first series was presented by Jeremy Clarkson.
20:37:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, depends on what armour
20:37:53 <Vorpal> some would act as a heatsink
20:38:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I suggest a low-heat low-power CPU anyway if you do it locally, like one or more ARM
20:38:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, stuff like nintento DS runs on it after all.
20:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, well, if we're just running an ARM it's not too much of an issue.
20:38:55 <Vorpal> and that has no fan afaik
20:39:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think a pair of high end ARMs have more than enough processing power
20:40:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, otherwise, since this doesn't last long, just use liquid nitrogen cooling
20:40:37 <Vorpal> it is a one off per battle anyway
20:40:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, too expensive hardware at stake here
20:42:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, further I suggest using a composite armor
20:42:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or hacking I guess
20:43:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, titanium alloys then?
20:43:56 <Vorpal> with steel skeleton for stiffness
20:44:26 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium#Physical_properties
20:44:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure we are, titanium is light too, so you can have more of it if there are weight limits
20:44:59 <Phantom_Hoover> The computer can be encased nicely, but everything else isn't that important.
20:45:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, actually *some* of those sensors might be a bit expensive
20:45:33 <Vorpal> laser gyro and LIDAR primarily I think
20:45:55 <Vorpal> you still have lots of simple switch sensors for detecting bumping into things and so on of course
20:48:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway composite isn't that expensive. Well depends on what composite
20:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so robot has sensors which feed to a lightweight processor which consults a heavyweight computer off the arena and does things accordingly?
20:52:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well yes the heavywight processor (if needed, it might not be) would send commands to the robot
20:53:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, would be free to make it at the level of "move towards that thing" or "drive on motor a", that is, you are free to put any amount of processing in the bot and any amount off it. I suggest that the CPU in the bot should not be limited in power (since other considerations will already do that) but the one off the arena should be.
20:54:00 <Vorpal> it wouldn't be so fun it someone bought a super cluster there
20:54:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, might run out of space
20:54:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You can have a supercluster, but if you still need to calculate the strategies sensibly.
20:55:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I suggest simply a standard high end machine running linux off the arena. Say a dual-cpu quad-core Xeon with 8 GB RAM and a few GPGPUs attached. For each combatant
20:56:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is quite interesting
20:57:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any good ideas?
20:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Well... Obviously a schematic of the other robot will be useful.
20:58:10 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't want to go charging onto a flipper, for instance.
20:58:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I suggest a rouge 3D model of the opponent(s) of it marking the weapon such as flippers
20:58:44 <Vorpal> nothing more detailed probably
20:58:49 <Vorpal> well maybe drive system
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20:59:56 <Vorpal> if we allow some form of 3D system scanners (LIDAR, Radar, sonar or such), and I suggest we do, that could be matched against the 3D model loaded in advance
21:00:26 <Vorpal> s/system scanners/scanner systems/
21:00:33 <Vorpal> (no idea how I managed that typo!)
21:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> And, as I mentioned before, being able to perform primitive diagnostics on opponents would be advantageous.
21:02:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean position and such?
21:02:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well sure, that would be some interesting sensors
21:02:33 <Vorpal> well I guess you could match against it being dented
21:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> But if your opponent's drive system is crippled, say, you have much more space to manoeuvre yourself.
21:03:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well that would be reasonably easy to detect, if it doesn't move
21:04:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, heuristics
21:04:17 <Vorpal> this would be good because that way you could try to pretend to be damaged
21:04:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which would be quite a nice tactic
21:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And thus the game becomes much more tactically complex.
21:04:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of course
21:05:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I wonder if it might be possible to build a drive system that can move in any direction
21:05:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or nearly so
21:06:06 <Vorpal> I can't see how it could be done basically
21:06:33 <Vorpal> the best I can think of is ability to drive the left and right side wheels or tracks independently
21:06:42 <Vorpal> which means you can turn on the spot
21:06:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecanum_wheel is omnidirectional
21:08:24 <fizzie> There's also that three-wheel design built out of what looks like the bottom bit of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omni_wheel with the wheels put like /_\ ; you can drive with two of them and the "sideways" wheels will make the third one not drag horribly.
21:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, yeah, but exposed wheels can be shredded easily.
21:10:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, still I think tracks and being able to turn on the spot is better
21:10:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you can put them under your body, no need to put them at the edges
21:11:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and why not retract them and put a cover over when getting flipped? then when you flip back reveal them again
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21:12:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ruber covered metal tracks are probably better though. Rubber for added traction that is
21:13:07 <Vorpal> and metal core for making it harder to destroy
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21:15:56 <fizzie> I hate to say this, but given the amount of work that would go into building a capable autonobot, you *might* have some trouble in finding people to participate in a... how should I put it, slightly hazardous thing like that? (No matter how much you limit the destructiviness, the aim -- unless you stray pretty far -- still is to break the opponent.)
21:17:37 <fizzie> How does it go with DARPA's "Grand Challenge" series of autonomous driving things; are they still doing that stuff? I haven't heard any news lately; though I guess I should just ask Google.
21:19:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, in that case we want different rules
21:20:08 <Vorpal> and probably having the crowd quite a long way away
21:20:16 <Vorpal> I mean, missiles and such
21:21:33 <fizzie> There's that at-times-a-bit-hilarious paper about how having robots shooting guns is going to be more ethically good, because they can more easily in "the heat of the battle" judge who are civilians and who they shouldn't be shooting.
21:22:07 <fizzie> It's going to really suck for that 10 % that happen to be false negatives of the civilian-classifier algo, though.
21:22:41 <Vorpal> also giving robots weapons like that? Um, you must be insane
21:23:05 <Vorpal> Just see future predictions by Hollywood
21:24:01 <fizzie> Incidentally, there's quite a bit of (overview-only presentation in the upcoming video link) hardware that might be useful for an autonobot in the 2007 DARPA-winning autonocar, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lULl63ERek0
21:28:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice but expensive
21:29:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw in the mine in Kiruna they use autonomous trucks and such
21:29:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, monitored by humans and the occasional change and such
21:29:28 <Vorpal> but day-to-day operation is autonomous
21:30:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc they use lasers, oh and some kind of reflective things mounted on the walls at the proper height
21:30:12 <Vorpal> so it can make sure it is not crashing into a wall
21:31:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, and there is no GPS to help them down there
21:31:53 <fizzie> Yes, but on the other hand it's a lot more controlled environment than a random city.
21:32:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, they have been using them since way before those cars though
21:36:23 <fizzie> Meh, all this robotics talk always makes me feel like I should build something; then I remember how very non-hardwarey person I am. I think I'll stick with the bits; they're a lot more malleable.
21:38:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, try lego, and remember to put support beams in orthogonally
21:40:21 <Vorpal> there is really just one "secret" of lego technic: two normal "beams" with two plates between is the proper distance to mount orthogonal supports on the side
21:40:32 <Vorpal> I could draw this in ldraw if you are interested I guess
21:41:13 <Vorpal> http://cache.lego.com/2057/images/create/designschool/courses/course_1/lesson1c/und272x362brickfit.gif
21:41:28 <Vorpal> hm cache... hope that url works for you
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21:43:25 <fizzie> (It also reminds me of Pac-Man.)
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21:45:58 <Vorpal> I seen the difference machine
21:46:06 <Vorpal> but that is not really a turing machine at all
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23:22:07 <Sgeo> ais523 is in the Crawl learndb
23:29:03 <Sgeo> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#ais523
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23:29:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I wasn't aware of nethack's interface being really inconsistent
23:29:51 <Vorpal> well, one or two small things sure but, nothing major
23:30:06 <Vorpal> Sgeo, is crawl's interface actually inconsistent?
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23:30:36 <Sgeo> It... feels nicer than NetHack's, in that it automates tedious stuff
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23:31:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oh and: is it harder or easier than nethack?
23:31:59 <Sgeo> Exploring, knowing where you stashed your stuff, note taking, resting until healed
23:32:09 <Sgeo> Knowing what's safe to eat
23:32:42 <Sgeo> Interlevel travel, including avoiding areas that the user marked for exclusion
23:33:16 <Vorpal> Sgeo, knowing where you stashed stuff is easy. First level of sokoban, icebox if possible. Until right before ascending, when I move it to level 1 if feasible.
23:33:30 <Vorpal> well the stuff I want to take with me but don't plan to carry down
23:33:48 <Vorpal> like artifacts that I have no use for except for the score
23:34:59 <Sgeo> price-ID is impossible
23:35:24 <Sgeo> Well, I prefer avoiding price-ID in NH
23:35:30 <Sgeo> Since it's tedious
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