00:00:02 <elliott> pikhq: I no longer have a volume control, but I do have my freedom.
00:02:38 <quintopia> also: bottom of page=platform and top of page=no boundary
00:02:51 <elliott> pikhq: WHY IS ALSA CONFIG IN /USR/SHARE/ALSA
00:02:58 <elliott> WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO /ETC
00:04:03 <elliott> pikhq: I think that Linux is just too shitty to run bsnes well on this hardware.
00:04:15 <elliott> pikhq: Sorry dude, I think I might install ZSNES until I get Kitten working :<
00:04:45 <elliott> quintopia: I thought that then I learned how it worked.
00:04:57 <elliott> Sound being my only problem with bsnes.
00:05:30 <elliott> It's like rain on your wedding day.
00:05:34 <pikhq> elliott: SNES9x at *least*.
00:05:47 <pikhq> elliott: ZSNES is absolutely *horrid*.
00:05:56 <elliott> pikhq: I just, Linux hates me.
00:05:59 <pikhq> elliott: SNES9x at least has niceties like "correct sound emulation".
00:06:08 <pikhq> Yes, ZSNES's sound emulation is broken beyond belief.
00:06:15 <elliott> So bsnes is out of the question until my OS is something more than a piece of wool balanced on top of a stick.
00:06:17 <elliott> And the stick is cracking.
00:06:22 <elliott> That's basically my impression of Linux.
00:06:24 <pikhq> Works just fine for me. :P
00:06:26 <fizzie> pikhq: But it doesn't have a water effect for the mouse cursor!
00:06:27 <elliott> (NetBSD is something akin to a very heavy stone.)
00:07:27 <fizzie> I seem to recall some DOS NES emulator (Nesticle?) having this really "kewl" dripping-blood theme.
00:07:49 <elliott> Cursor almost looked like a testicle even.
00:08:03 <elliott> pikhq: Snes9x goes at perfect speed. :/
00:08:14 <pikhq> Snes9x is quite a bit faster.
00:08:18 <fizzie> Well, hands are very related to testicles anyway.
00:08:36 <elliott> pikhq: Would tweaking with latency help?
00:08:38 <pikhq> It works in all the Linucks of the world.
00:08:40 <elliott> Higher is better, right? :P
00:08:53 <elliott> pikhq: IT'S A SETTING TWEAKING IT DOES THINGS HELP HELP
00:09:28 * olsner tries the sleeping thing
00:12:09 <pikhq> elliott: For the sake of curiosity, I think I'm going to encode a lossless video with x264 and see how much space it takes.
00:12:52 <Sgeo> x264 is lossless?
00:12:58 <Sgeo> Also, "lossless video"?
00:13:08 <Sgeo> You mean, encode with x264 losslessly?
00:13:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: x264 can do lossless encoding, yes.
00:15:35 <pikhq> Just set the quantiser to 0 and voila.
00:16:13 <cpressey> why don't these horrible things just get deleted
00:16:51 <cpressey> ZSNES. PulseAudio. why can't i rm them
00:17:16 <cpressey> why do others insist of keeping their reference counts above zero
00:17:34 <elliott> cpressey: drunk again i see :P
00:18:54 <elliott> pikhq: Things I don't like: Scaling filters
00:18:57 <Gregor> I think I just totally broke my good keyboard.
00:19:34 * elliott utter keyboard nerd who has no good keyboards due to apathy and money!
00:19:44 <quintopia> so, snes9x does sound emulation excellently, but sucks balls at mouse emulation. maybe if i ran it in fullscreen mode it'd be less annoying.
00:20:22 <quintopia> i only have one keyboard, and it gets replaced regularly due to spills mostly
00:20:35 <pikhq> elliott: SNES mouse.
00:21:29 <elliott> pikhq: I hereby approve of Snes9x for those of us who use terrible OSes.
00:21:48 <pikhq> elliott: It's imperfect but a *hell* of a lot better than ZSNES.
00:21:51 <elliott> pikhq: Even if Chrono Trigger's opening sequence makes no sense at all.
00:22:00 <elliott> Things are happening! I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE
00:22:05 <pikhq> elliott: Which, BTW, has been unmaintained for 6 years.
00:22:10 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, incomprehensible spoilery opening sequences?
00:22:19 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, 3 years.
00:22:21 <elliott> "First episode, here's what's gonna happen in the next ten!"
00:22:25 <cpressey> elliott: i am setting the MOOD
00:22:33 <pikhq> And it's written in x86 assembly.
00:22:34 <Gregor> elliott: You just asked me what keyboard I use, then BEGGED me not to tell you.
00:22:47 <elliott> Gregor: By... mentioning I'm a keyboard nerd?
00:22:54 <elliott> I totally saw those bikes on the 3D PLANE
00:23:04 <elliott> Gregor: Oh just tell me, I'm using a terrible one now.
00:23:19 <elliott> I'll just make a snide remark about it not classing as "good" and leave it at that.
00:23:29 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously, does this opening sequence make any fucking sense at all?
00:23:33 <quintopia> dear people who use snes9x: is there a tag to make it automatically lower my resolution and fullscreen instead of windowing?
00:23:37 <elliott> ...IT GOES BACK TO THE START
00:23:44 <elliott> So that's what I had to do.
00:24:07 <pikhq> elliott: I've not played Chrono Trigger. :)
00:26:58 <fizzie> Wait is more turn-based than active.
00:27:42 <elliott> fizzie: Oh so those are the two modes for the actual game?
00:27:43 <fizzie> And you press start in some name-entering thing and in the start screens, but after that it's mostly just abxy.
00:27:55 <elliott> fizzie: Which is the "proper" one?
00:28:01 <elliott> Please don't say "there's no proper one".
00:28:13 <fizzie> Active is for "real men", yes.
00:28:28 <elliott> Am I super-boring if I just use "Crono"
00:29:42 <elliott> Gotta say, those graphics are amazing.
00:29:51 <elliott> I... this is totally not my mental image of "SNES".
00:30:10 <elliott> pikhq: I, whatever the first Super Mario Bros. game for it was numbered.
00:30:19 <pikhq> elliott: Super Mario Bros. 3 is NES.
00:30:39 <elliott> Dear God the colours are nice.
00:30:47 <elliott> Dear GOD the colours are nice.
00:30:55 <pikhq> elliott: http://www.mariowiki.com/images/d/d0/SMWMvsB.png
00:30:56 <elliott> No mom, YOUR bell makes such beautiful music. Wait, what?
00:31:21 <pikhq> elliott: And that was a launch title.
00:31:26 <elliott> I wonder if everyone is the same height in this game.
00:31:36 <elliott> I wonder why the bottom few pixels are unused.
00:32:03 <pikhq> elliott: The SNES had a lot more power in it. And even more if you stuck a RISC chip onto the cartridge!
00:32:41 <elliott> Uhh, can I actually do anything before I go downstairs? To anyone who knows.
00:32:45 <elliott> I haven't mastered these controls yet.
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00:36:39 <quintopia> snes9x (this version) is unplayable with mouse and keyboard afaik
00:37:36 <pikhq> Y'know, I'm quite sad that sticking CD-quality audio in games wasn't practical until recently. I would love to play FF6 without synthesised music.
00:38:22 <Sgeo> Had no idea who I was
00:38:29 <Sgeo> And I could barely understand her accent
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00:39:30 * elliott wonders if Sgeo actually cried there
00:40:42 <Sgeo> But I think I hung up on her on accident
00:40:52 <elliott> pikhq: wow, she doesn't give you your allowance unless you talk to her twice
00:41:18 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder who the hell the Japanese think they're portraying with their families.
00:41:37 <elliott> Always single mother, always says the exact same thing to the kid
00:41:42 <elliott> Always an almost-identical house
00:42:18 <elliott> pikhq: I... a guy is walking on the spot. Emulation issue?
00:43:55 <Gregor> Keyboard has nearly restored itself.
00:47:07 <cpressey> liquid metal self-restoring TERMINATEROR keyboard
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00:51:12 <oerjan> elliott: japanese fathers are never home, you know.
00:51:12 <elliott> Cool, gold is worthless in this game.
00:51:22 <elliott> oerjan: And Japanese houses are TINY
00:51:30 <oerjan> work during day, drink during night
00:51:32 <elliott> You can get arbitrary gold here just by pressing a button at the right time ten times.
00:51:41 <oerjan> (and the drinking is also work)
00:52:00 <elliott> oerjan: psht that's clearly the Norwegians</baseless>
00:53:31 <oerjan> yep. baseless, that is.
00:54:24 <elliott> pikhq: I saved to a save slot on the cart. Am I a bad person?
00:55:28 <pikhq> elliott: Awesome. I appear to be getting 15,000 kbit/s for this LOSSLESS x264 encode.
00:56:16 <pikhq> elliott: For comparison, a DVD is generally 9,000 kbit/s or so.
00:56:52 <pikhq> Approximately doubling the storage space would let us have lossless 480p.
00:57:25 <pikhq> ... I'll try that later. Quite a bit later.
00:57:38 <elliott> Wow, this random girl I just met sure is dedicated to following a few pixels behind ,e/
00:57:41 <elliott> pikhq: with FLAC soundtrack
00:57:43 <pikhq> (I'd need to download the uncompressed video)
00:57:46 <pikhq> elliott: Well, of course.
00:58:07 <elliott> "They're still setting up! Why not go and figure out what you're supposed to do before we let you in."
00:58:22 <elliott> Come, random girl who follows a few pixels behind me.
00:58:28 <elliott> Let us find our quest as you get in my way annoyingly.
01:01:15 <pikhq> elliott: This is actually a low enough bitrate that it would be ENTIRELY FEASIBLE to stream lossless 720x480 video over ATSC if the spec allowed.
01:01:48 <pikhq> The American digital terrestrial television standard.
01:02:21 <pikhq> The only real reason we use it instead of DVB is that ATSC broadcasts started before DVB was invented.
01:02:43 <elliott> The only time America has ever been ahead of the curve.
01:03:03 <pikhq> ATSC's at least not a terrible standard.
01:03:26 <elliott> "This Kingdom's been through a lot, like the war against Magus, 400 years ago."
01:03:36 <elliott> Oh, you fought a guy 400 years ago. Such hardship you peaceful motherfuckers face.
01:03:40 <elliott> Not even Switzerland has that kind of record.
01:05:25 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, so the one I selected was basically "pseudo-realtime battles"
01:05:56 <pikhq> Yup. That's the Active Time Battle system for you.
01:06:05 <elliott> pikhq: Am I... meant to like that?
01:06:28 <pikhq> It'll either grow on you or make you very glad that it fell out of style.
01:06:45 <pikhq> My Elephant's Dream encode is 1.2G
01:06:51 <pikhq> And 100% lossless.
01:06:56 <elliott> My elephant's dream encode is 1.2G.
01:07:42 <elliott> "Jurassic (music symbol) rhythm (music symbol)"
01:07:45 <elliott> Them some prehistoric lyrics.
01:08:00 <pikhq> This is, in fact, ENTIRELY PRACTICAL.
01:10:10 <pikhq> Now, then. 1080p, you say?
01:10:16 <pikhq> 46GB uncompressed.
01:10:34 <pikhq> And it doesn't exist in such a format.
01:10:57 <pikhq> Lemme grab the PNGs, then.
01:10:59 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway a dual-layer Blu-Ray can store 50 gigs.
01:11:04 <pikhq> y4m is just much more *convenient*.
01:11:05 <elliott> pikhq: Are dual-layer Blu-Rays okay?
01:11:23 <elliott> pikhq: I remember with DVDs it kinda sucked.
01:11:47 <pikhq> elliott: That's called a "shitty encode".
01:12:25 <elliott> pikhq: Or do I not mean multiple layers...
01:12:34 <elliott> pikhq: I may mean double-sided.
01:14:39 <pikhq> elliott: There's two ways to do a dual-layer DVD.
01:14:55 <pikhq> The second layer can start from the inside or the outside of the disc.
01:15:08 <pikhq> With it starting at the outside of the disc, the transition time is essentially nil.
01:16:01 <pikhq> Anyways, hooray, 21G of PNGs.
01:16:16 <pikhq> I anticipate the x264 will be similar in size.
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01:43:45 <catseye> someone ought to computerize Spawn of Fashan. on a really objectionable platform, like, MS-DOS w/CGA graphics. ALSO: it should crash a lot, for full effect.
01:52:54 <Gregor> MythBusters is finally testing "When the shit hits the fan"
01:54:09 <oerjan> *boggles* *facepalm* *boggles*
01:56:21 <pikhq> Well, that's fun. It seems that mplayer seems to fail at a crazy, crazy Matroska file with lossless video and audio.
01:57:11 <oerjan> it's matryoskas all the way down
01:58:04 <pikhq> It seems to have trouble with the *FLAC* in there.
01:58:35 <pikhq> It handles being told to play a seperate AVI and WAV file just fine.
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02:24:17 <catseye> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Commodore-64-Quintic-Warrior-Quicksilva-/110597345971
02:24:25 <catseye> "you will never discover MY roots, challenger!"
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02:31:58 <calamari> Gregor: The requested URL /webplat/webplat.js was not found on this server.
02:33:21 <calamari> oh I see, he changed it to loader.py
02:33:24 <Gregor> calamari: Name changed, load method changed, recreate your bookmarklet from http://codu.org/websplat/
02:33:40 <Gregor> loader.js should work ...
02:33:45 <catseye> i was wondering what .py was involved for
02:34:21 * Gregor doesn't read properly :P
02:34:35 <Gregor> Anyway, yeah, remake your bookmarklet :P
02:34:58 <Gregor> You haven't web*lat'ted in a while :P
02:35:07 <calamari> weird, I can't seem to double-jump through "Some pages I recommend platforming on: "
02:35:13 <Gregor> You can thank quintopia for the images.
02:36:12 <calamari> oh, yes I can, guess I just needed more height
02:40:47 <calamari> falling off then clicking it again to load another copy produces very interesting results lol
02:41:33 <pikhq> http://i41.tinypic.com/a4ymva.png This is an actual frame from a Bluray. HOW DO YOU ENCODE THAT POORLY.
02:41:58 <pikhq> MPEG2 at those bitrates can produce better.
02:44:24 <calamari> Gregor: if there are 2 lines of text, I can't jump through.. is that by design?>
02:44:50 <Gregor> calamari: You can only jump through one (z-ordered stack of) element(s).
02:45:25 <calamari> oh so it's the one above it that is stopping me
02:45:26 <catseye> calamari: try increasing the font size! or disabling css!
02:45:34 <catseye> i have no idea what will happen if you try those, btw.
02:52:17 <calamari> interesting.. after you fall all the way off, you still get one final jump
02:53:58 <catseye> "tar: TAP: file changed as we read it"
02:54:25 <catseye> or is tar actually a gang of little gnomes?
03:02:51 -!- calamari has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://is.gd/g4ullllID.
03:07:39 <calamari> ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooopppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
03:07:39 <calamari> pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
03:07:39 <calamari> uuuuuuuuuu;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
03:07:45 <calamari> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll///////////////////////''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''/
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03:10:15 <calamari> bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbboops sorry .; b
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03:10:37 <oerjan> SOMEONE IS NOT TAKING A HINT HERE
03:13:32 <catseye> the um,link in the topic goes nowhere now
03:13:55 <catseye> also, was he drawing a mandelbrot set? i can only hope, but i don' think so
03:15:18 -!- catseye has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
03:16:04 <oerjan> it doesn't look much like a mandelbrot set
03:16:42 <catseye> maybe in 300 columns and really large.....mmmstill no.
03:17:20 <oerjan> only the first two lines even resemble each other, but a part of the mandelbrot set still wouldn't look like that
03:17:46 <catseye> conclusion: he was drawing it *poorly*.
03:19:08 -!- catseye has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities find smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
03:19:15 <catseye> newspaper headline grammar
03:20:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: Mandelbrot 'stabbed to death'; on autopsy, authorities 'find smaller version of Mandelbrot inside' | TOO SOON | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
03:20:38 <oerjan> no _this_ is newspaper headline grammar
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04:50:43 <Gregor> Things I wish I had known about: document.elementFromPoint
04:51:04 <Gregor> Why does it have a name inconsistent with all the other getElement* functions? Because Microsoft made it.
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05:18:12 <fungot> catseye: so in pi calculus, join calculus, etc. they can also sell copies of software ( the gnu project has written things like gcc, mozilla, and probably breaks horribly in lots of hitchcock films, the fnord
05:22:08 <coppro> pikhq: http://www.fantasyscotus.net/
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06:13:30 <catseye> netcat, on cygwin, doesn't do the -e thing it seems -- at least not for MY bot.
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06:20:03 <fizzie> Re the topic, a Finnish parody newspaper web thing announced Mandelbrot's death with something like (badly paraphrased) "The decades-long project to measure the boundary of Benoît Mandelbrot had to be discontinued on Thursday.
06:21:11 <fizzie> The project, started in 1967, took significantly longer than expected, as the perimeter of Mandelbrot grew longer every time the researchers switched to more accurate methods of measurement.
06:21:58 <fizzie> According to the latest measurement, made with an electron microscope, Mandelbrot was longer than the British coastline."
06:22:02 <fizzie> And so on, and so forth.
06:25:42 <fizzie> Well, since I went that far, I might do the last sentence too: "The experts described the challenged faced by the project also with exact mathematical expressions, but of that the reporters, having received a social science education, did understand nary a thing."
06:36:19 <fizzie> Uh, well, http://lehti.samizdat.info/2010/10/mandelbrotin-aariviivan-pituuden-mittaus-keskeytettiin/ to that particular piece.
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07:41:36 <Ilari> Is there any fractal that does not have boundary length go to infinity as the scale appoaches zero?
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10:07:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: ping <-- pong
10:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott: for log reading purposes: I realised that trying to prove anything useful about much of libc is useless, for example, take strlen(), you can't even say anything about it really because there might not be any \0 byte.
10:10:10 <Vorpal> it is easier to prove useful properties for stuff like memcpy and so on that takes a max length parameter
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10:53:35 <ais523> Vorpal: you can prove that strlen returns the length correctly if given a null-terminated string
10:54:55 <ais523> meanwhile, on the C module I'm trying to TA: <me> you can't use scanf("%s") because it leads to a buffer overflow if the user gives more input than the size of the buffer <another TA on that module> can't you just use sizeof()
10:55:02 <ais523> I do not have high hopes for this module...
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11:01:04 <fizzie> That is very impressive.
11:01:30 <Vorpal> ais523, yes indeed. Hm I wonder how to express that to frama-c, I'm not completely sure it is possible
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11:06:27 <fizzie> "Teaching assistant", I'd guess.
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11:43:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, got any good suggestion for safe prefix for identifiers in library code? _ is for the standard and __ is for libc. ___ looks a bit silly... And so does prefixing parameter names in the headers with the library prefix
11:44:08 <Vorpal> (and I can't just skip them, since there will be formal verification comments referring to those in the headers)
11:46:47 <fizzie> Not triple-underscores, at least.
11:47:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, it looks so silly that no one else uses it
11:47:15 <fizzie> Yes, but it still looks so silly.
11:48:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure what would be sensible, though. Any non-odious things I can think of are more or less conflict-prone.
11:49:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, error prone is something I want to avoid everywhere in this case.
11:52:13 <fizzie> As a quick poll: the SDL/OpenGL/glib headers at least include parameter names but don't seem to use any sort of prefix.
11:53:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, but I don't want defines from something like ncurses messing up, which is infamous for doing just that.
11:54:35 <fizzie> Add libpng to that list of no-prefix names, though the libpng parameter names are so silly ("void png_destroy_write_struct(png_structpp png_ptr_ptr, png_infopp info_ptr_ptr);") that maybe they don't need any.
11:54:44 <fizzie> It's like reverse hungarian notation.
11:55:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, amusing define from deep in glibc:
11:55:25 <Vorpal> /* This is not a typedef so `const __ptr_t' does the right thing. */
11:55:25 <Vorpal> #define __ptr_t void *
11:55:37 <Vorpal> the comment makes sense certainly but... why define that at all
11:56:36 <fizzie> It's a nice tradeoff: you get "const __ptr_t" working, but on the other hand multi-declarations like "__ptr_t a, b" then won't.
11:57:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yeah, but why do they define that thing at all
11:58:09 <fizzie> I don't really know. Maybe they don't like the * character?
12:00:01 <fizzie> Maybe it's for when they try to port glibc to a compiler that doesn't support void pointers?
12:02:23 <fizzie> Hey, void's a new feature, you can't expect everyone to support it yet.
12:03:43 <fizzie> Seminar session time real soon now, I wonder what it's going to be about.
12:04:03 <fizzie> "Multi-task learning with kernel and nonparametric methods"
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13:44:31 -!- elliott has set topic: Mandelbrot 'stabbed to death'; on autopsy, authorities 'find smaller version of Mandelbrot inside' | TOO SOON | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
13:45:31 <elliott> 17:14:39 <pikhq> elliott: There's two ways to do a dual-layer DVD.
13:45:31 <elliott> 17:14:55 <pikhq> The second layer can start from the inside or the outside of the disc.
13:45:31 <elliott> 17:15:08 <pikhq> With it starting at the outside of the disc, the transition time is essentially nil.
13:45:43 <elliott> pikhq_: would it work to transition to another layer, say, in the middle of fast action?
13:47:47 <elliott> 18:41:33 <pikhq> http://i41.tinypic.com/a4ymva.png This is an actual frame from a Bluray. HOW DO YOU ENCODE THAT POORLY.
13:47:47 <elliott> 18:41:58 <pikhq> MPEG2 at those bitrates can produce better.
13:49:03 <elliott> `addquote 21:18:12 <fungot> catseye: so in pi calculus, join calculus, etc. they can also sell copies of software ( the gnu project has written things like gcc, mozilla, and probably breaks horribly in lots of hitchcock films, the fnord
13:49:04 <fungot> elliott: also more fat burns better. there's no finer-grained editing than page-level atm. you may want to just do
13:50:19 <elliott> 02:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott: for log reading purposes: I realised that trying to prove anything useful about much of libc is useless, for example, take strlen(), you can't even say anything about it really because there might not be any \0 byte.
13:50:58 <elliott> (exists n. byteAtLocEq (p+n) 0) -> strlen n = n
13:51:05 <elliott> (exists n. byteAtLocEq (p+n) 0) -> strlen p = n
13:51:27 <elliott> Vorpal: of course you could package that up as nullTerminated p
13:51:32 <elliott> nullTerminated s -> strlen s = n
13:51:54 <elliott> of course you'd probably not be able to have them as actual coq functions without some zaniness
13:52:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, if you really care that much about stuff being correct that you formally prove it you probably don't want to use C strings anyway
13:52:17 <elliott> 03:43:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, got any good suggestion for safe prefix for identifiers in library code? _ is for the standard and __ is for libc. ___ looks a bit silly... And so does prefixing parameter names in the headers with the library prefix
13:52:20 <elliott> surely ___ is reserved for libc
13:52:37 <Vorpal> elliott, no __ is for libc, and _ is for the standard
13:52:45 <elliott> Vorpal: if you care about it being formally proven and you want to write it in C you're either controlling a nuclear reactor or stupid.
13:53:19 <Vorpal> elliott, but then __ is for C standard since _ is, and __ has prefix _
13:53:38 <Vorpal> I think it says "followed by alphanumeric letter" or such, I need to check that
13:54:19 <elliott> things I wish I could do: tell apt "I want ubuntu-desktop, but not this one dependency (*cough* pulseaudio) and you just have to accept that."
13:55:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I wish the same.
13:55:39 <Vorpal> there are a few more ones that just pulseaudio I wish to avoid
13:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: instead, I'm just going to try to install ubuntu-desktop every now and then, note the new packages, and install them :P
13:55:58 <elliott> Cough, Ubuntu One, cough, but that isn't depended on by ubuntu-desktop.
13:56:19 <Vorpal> elliott, hm forgot, I think it used to depend on openoffice or something in older releases.
13:56:26 <Vorpal> seems that is just recommends nowdays
13:56:38 <elliott> fuck openoffice with a rusty chainsaw
13:56:56 <elliott> it's perhaps the only office suite worse than Office
13:57:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, there was some other thing too, evolution.
13:57:22 <elliott> what's wrong with having evolution installed, even if you don't use it?
13:57:28 <elliott> it's not like ubuntu isn't full of such stuff anyway
13:57:48 <elliott> and you can hide it from the memories and try and forget about the disk space it's using up
13:58:10 <Vorpal> elliott, you could just disable pulseaudio and not uninstall it?
13:58:13 <elliott> Vorpal: interesting, I have libpulse but no pulseaudio.
13:58:19 <elliott> Vorpal: you *can* do that, but it's a bitch
13:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, not just an init script?
13:58:31 <elliott> also I think to hide the indicator applet icon for the pulseaudio audio stuff it's uh
13:58:37 <elliott> you have to uninstall it maybe? or just fuck with the files
13:58:43 <elliott> and that would probably break ubuntu-desktop if the former
13:58:50 <elliott> Vorpal: no, because it also redirects ALSA to PulseAudio
13:59:15 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's to be expected, it's reasonable to do if you actually want it
13:59:59 <Vorpal> elliott, exactly do you expect anything relating to sound more advanced than the build in pc speaker to be sane under linux ;P
14:00:07 <Vorpal> wait, that one isn't sane either
14:00:16 <Vorpal> it shows up in /dev/input
14:00:17 <elliott> that sentence took a while to parse...
14:00:38 <Vorpal> typoing typo is kind of awkward
14:00:44 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, the only way i've managed to get a sane interface to linux audio that also works well is OSSv4
14:01:00 <elliott> decent API (from what I gather), proper /dev files that work reasonably and mix properly
14:01:15 <elliott> and it actually makes Flash audio sync up
14:01:28 <elliott> Vorpal: but OSS on Ubuntu is just ... lol
14:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott, there are a few alsa drivers that actually have low latency and so on. But they are the exception rather than the norm
14:01:42 <elliott> the repository version is old. the non-repository version is a pain to set up.
14:01:48 <Vorpal> luckily my sb live card is one of the exceptions
14:02:26 <Vorpal> elliott, as for flash audio sync, how comes video syncs fine with audio when watched in, say, mplayer or vlc?
14:02:42 <elliott> Vorpal: well if you're me it doesn't, not when using pulseaudio or alsa :)
14:02:53 <elliott> Vorpal: (2) flash uses OSS all the time, I think
14:02:59 <elliott> (so obviously it's faster without a translation layer)
14:03:01 <Vorpal> hm that would explain parts of it
14:03:10 <elliott> Vorpal: (3) nspluginwrapper is insane and god knows what it does to desync everything up.
14:03:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it even syncs up on my thinkpad, with intel hd audio
14:03:30 <elliott> and i hate nspluginwrapper and HURRY THE FUCK UP ADOBE RELEASE THE 64-BIT VERSION.
14:03:37 <elliott> Vorpal: i have intel hd audio but... yeah
14:03:41 <elliott> alsa, not a fan. pulse, not a fan.
14:03:51 <elliott> alsa is not a fan of my card
14:04:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well thinkpad uses alsa with pulse. Because so far I haven't had sync issues I never bothered replacing it
14:04:41 <elliott> Vorpal: In this case I decided to just get rid of PulseAudio when it was too shitty to handle bsnes giving it 32khz audio :P
14:05:33 <elliott> pikhq_: re: that screenshot
14:05:35 <elliott> pikhq_: "The project team was able to produce a x264 video compliant Blu-ray. The first and most important stone from which to build authoring programs.
14:05:35 <elliott> The content already present on the network and released under a permissive license, were compressed at a rate sufficient to be burned on a standard DVD disc."
14:05:45 <elliott> pikhq_: i.e. "We're innovators! Also, pointless goal that makes quality useless!"
14:06:19 <elliott> note: google translate is *great* at italian -> english
14:07:55 <elliott> It's official; Empathy is so bad that I'm installing Pidgin.
14:08:38 <fizzie> You must be some sort of a robot to so completely lack any empathy.
14:08:47 <fizzie> (Or maybe a replicant.)
14:09:33 <elliott> Or a replicator! http://www.yehppael.com/images/uploaded/0000/0006/img-21.jpg Although that makse little sense.
14:12:56 <fizzie> Just to add one more data point: I don't have any AV sync issues when it comes to (regular) video playback through pulse/ALSA (except for one bluetooth headset which is pretty flaky everywhere), and haven't bothered to replace it because (a) Ubuntu and (b) I actually use Pulse's "use pavucontrol to route audio from different apps to different devices in one easy, centralized way" feature; I guess that's not something OSSv4 does? (Though perhaps if I just did pe
14:12:56 <fizzie> r-application symlinks to /dev files and some sort of custom kludge to manipulate those.)
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14:14:25 <fizzie> http://www.opensound.com/wiki/index.php/Tips_And_Tricks -- that mess re "add a "vmixctl attach" command to the $OSSLIBDIR/soundon.user file" makes it sound uncomfortably close to fiddling with asoundrc's. :p
14:16:01 <elliott> fizzie: It isn't actually /dev-based.
14:16:06 <elliott> OSS is nothing like old OSS :P
14:16:32 <fizzie> Well, again, I was just going by http://www.opensound.com/wiki/index.php/Tips_And_Tricks "Changing the default sound output" -- "The typical method is to relink /dev/dsp to the desired /dev/oss/.../ device."
14:16:46 <fizzie> That sounds pretty old-fashioned.
14:17:11 <elliott> fizzie: Files; very old-fashioned.
14:17:26 <fizzie> What is that if not "/dev-based", though?
14:17:47 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I'm pretty sure there's an API that doesn't actually touch any /dev files.
14:17:56 <elliott> Presumably it treats /dev/dsp as configuration.
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14:19:21 <elliott> fizzie: I actually don't know, but I do know that it works perfectly.
14:19:28 <elliott> And doesn't feel hacky or anything.
14:21:44 <fizzie> Well, I'm just looking at this http://manuals.opensound.com/usersguide/ and from what I can tell, you're certainly supposed to configure "where does this sound go" in the application doing the playback, which is something I don't like, because so many apps tend to hide that thing in all kinds of uncomfortable places. (I don't mind "hacky", though.)
14:22:20 <elliott> I don't do crazy shit like that, but, uh, I'd trust the wiki more than the manual.
14:22:26 <elliott> Documentation is one thing I do not believe it is so strong on.
14:23:11 <fizzie> The whole discussion is a bit academic, since my laziness is so endemic I'm sure I couldn't be arsed to switch from "whatever Ubby does by default" unless (until?) things actually break.
14:27:47 <elliott> fizzie: OSSv4 is a pain to get working on Ubuntu because Ubuntu sucks, so yeah.
14:34:35 <elliott> Uhh, you can't resize Pidgin's text box thing to be only one line by default, can you?
14:40:21 <elliott> Due to political reasons, they are not distributed with GNOME unfortunately."
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14:45:00 <Ilari> Certain flags could be used to annoy certain people...
14:45:43 <elliott> http://developer.pidgin.im/raw-attachment/ticket/2367/pidgin201gui.jpg "I will now point out your UI's flaws using badly-spelled red on black, great big red borders around things I already have arrows pointing to, and Fixedsys as one of my main fonts."
14:45:51 <elliott> "Also, I will spell any word greater than six letters long incorrectly."
14:46:02 <elliott> (Okay, so there's only two typos, but come on.)
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14:52:56 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq_: re: that screenshot
14:52:56 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq_: "The project team was able to produce a x264 video compliant Blu-ray. The first and most important stone from which to build authoring programs.
14:52:56 <elliott> <elliott> The content already present on the network and released under a permissive license, were compressed at a rate sufficient to be burned on a standard DVD disc."
14:52:56 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq_: i.e. "We're innovators! Also, pointless goal that makes quality useless!"
14:53:12 <elliott> <elliott> 17:14:39 <pikhq> elliott: There's two ways to do a dual-layer DVD.
14:53:12 <elliott> <elliott> 17:14:55 <pikhq> The second layer can start from the inside or the outside of the disc.
14:53:12 <elliott> <elliott> 17:15:08 <pikhq> With it starting at the outside of the disc, the transition time is essentially nil.
14:53:12 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq_: would it work to transition to another layer, say, in the middle of fast action?
14:55:35 <pikhq> Yeah, it's small enough that the buffer takes up the slack.
14:55:57 <pikhq> Also, some DVD players can do the switch to the other layer start effectively instantly; hooray, buffering.
15:01:41 <elliott> Wow, Chrono Trigger's graphisc are awesome.
15:04:07 <elliott> Oh look at that, I've gone back just in time for the war.
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15:18:04 <cpressey> elliott: Tonight. It shall happen.
15:18:14 <elliott> cpressey: How many hours is "tonight"?
15:18:18 <cpressey> I'm a little irritated by Maverick, tbh.
15:18:20 <elliott> I cannot miss the achtung.
15:18:56 <cpressey> eh. yeah, you usually log off less than an hour before i get back online at home.
15:19:56 <elliott> cpressey: I TOTALLY SUGGEST THE WEEKEND
15:20:05 <cpressey> (like it will be SO ENTERTAINING from your end to see me disappear, then reappear 20 minutes later saying "I can't get the network up"_
15:21:21 <cpressey> but yes, weekend is probably a better plan
15:21:55 * cpressey can't wait to see the NetBSD One Online Music Store plugin for madplay though
15:22:03 <cpressey> (see? it doesn't even make any sense, right?)
15:26:16 <elliott> cpressey: You are quite thoroughly insane.
15:26:22 <elliott> <cpressey> (like it will be SO ENTERTAINING from your end to see me disappear, then reappear 20 minutes later saying "I can't get the network up"_
15:26:29 <elliott> also it takes longer than that :P
15:28:18 <Gregor> DISCOVERY: document.elementFromPoint
15:28:25 <Gregor> FURTHER DISCOVERY: document.elementFromPoint is effectively unusable.
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15:31:50 <elliott> Gregor: You must make moving elements work. Wanna know why?
15:32:15 <Gregor> Without elementFromPoint being tolerable, I /can't/. Period. But why?
15:32:17 <elliott> Gregor: Marquees as moving platforms.
15:32:26 <elliott> Gregor: Jumping at the right time to avoid falling from blinking ones.
15:32:35 <Gregor> The movement of marquees isn't detectable from within JS anyway.
15:32:45 <Gregor> All you know is the box.
15:33:03 <elliott> Gregor: JS is unsuitable for this?
15:33:24 <Gregor> Doing it directly in WebKit would be hell on Earth.
15:33:36 <Gregor> Doable, but I'd sooner castrate myself with a rusty soup spoon.
15:35:36 <elliott> Gregor: Use WebKit, write the bulk of it in JS, but for special bits have WebKit-using C++ that exposes marquee positions and other useful stuff to JS?
15:35:57 <Gregor> That's exactly what I'm referring to.
15:36:08 <Gregor> Hacking out the part of WebKit that draws that, detecting whereTF it's putting things, and barfing that back to JS = hell on Earth.
15:36:19 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah because this is an easy project :P
15:36:29 <Gregor> Up until now it has been.
15:36:38 <elliott> Gregor: Yay another dormant Gregor project
15:37:33 <Gregor> Yes, "I'm not adding a pointless feature that would take me a week of work" = "I'm abandoning this project"
15:39:30 <Gregor> Oh, and which would significantly reduce the userbase. From "whoever wants to" (tens) to "whoever downloads this and compiles a hacked WebKit into a browser" (zero)
15:40:10 <cpressey> Gregor: Can you not write your own elementFromPoint? Sounds "easy".
15:40:51 <Gregor> cpressey: Uhh, how am I writing elementFromPoint not in terms of elementFromPoint? Iterating over every element and checking if it's there?
15:43:39 <Gregor> I suppose I could have an "enhanced" hacked-WebKit branch and a "normal" unhacked-WebKit branch ...
15:43:59 <Gregor> And if I implemented a non-shitty getElementsByRect into the enhanced one ...
15:45:36 <elliott> <Gregor> Oh, and which would significantly reduce the userbase. From "whoever wants to" (tens) to "whoever downloads this and compiles a hacked WebKit into a browser" (zero)
15:45:44 <elliott> I meant making it a standalone application.
15:45:55 <elliott> Just embed a webkit widget in a window. Done.
15:46:07 <elliott> This also gets rid of having to make it a bookmarklet.
15:46:35 <elliott> Gregor: So how is elementFromPoint useless?
15:47:02 <Gregor> It's too damned slow because:
15:47:25 <Gregor> 1) It only returns the highest-zIndex element at the point, so I need to CSS-modify that and recurse to get every element.
15:47:41 <Gregor> 2) It's only by-point, not by-box, but I'm doing box-box collision detection here.
15:48:50 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, I'm totally gonna say "Write ultra-trivial application that just starts up a window with WebKit on some page (put a URL box there or something, the "start level") that automatically injects the JS into any non-starting page. (That would be, what, 200 lines at the most? Surely.)
15:49:01 <elliott> Then you can add little enhancements for the JS code when you want.
15:49:21 <Gregor> That is not the hard part. At all. That's the already-done part.
15:49:39 <cpressey> Gregor: Oh, I wasn't thinking about the "realtime" version, if things are changing. Just, survey every element, record its BB (in a quadtree?), test points in that structure.
15:49:43 <elliott> Gregor: You already have an application?
15:50:02 <Gregor> cpressey: That's more-or-less exactly what I'm already doing.
15:50:05 <elliott> Gregor: I'm just saying, do that and ditch the bookmarklet model. Then you can add stuff when you want without making shit change.
15:50:17 <Gregor> cpressey: I was hoping elementFromPoint would help me make it dynamic :P
15:50:20 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and you could load the JS from the web, so that updates would be automatic unless you added some WebKit stuff...
15:50:25 <elliott> (Which could easily just tell you "yo upgrade")
15:50:26 <Gregor> elliott: Well OBVIOUSLY you ditch the bookmarklet if you're doing it that way.
15:50:44 <elliott> Gregor: Sheesh, I know it gives equivalent functionality, I'm just saying: Do this now and the amount of work later is decreased :P
15:51:22 <Gregor> Out of curiosity, have you ever compiled WebKit? Have you ever hacked its build system at all?
15:51:34 <elliott> Gregor: ...you wouldn't need to?
15:51:51 <Gregor> I would need to give its library a name unambiguous from "real" WebKit.
15:51:51 <elliott> I'm assuming that its API is good enough to add a proper elementFromPoint replacement.
15:52:01 <elliott> You could *link to actual WebKit*.
15:52:09 <elliott> All you're doing is binding some C++ stuff to JS.
15:52:20 <Gregor> Suddenly I have 100% more understanding of what you're suggesting X-D
15:52:23 <elliott> Gregor: Is that laughter or "oh, right, do the *obvious* thing" :P
15:52:50 <Gregor> OK, so that idea has just gone from "wtf, hacking WebKit = I want to kill myself"
15:52:59 <Gregor> To "ahh, simply providing the necessary interfaces"
15:53:01 <elliott> To "elliott is a design GOD"
15:53:14 <elliott> Gregor: Note: I just filed for a patent on "Linking to WebKit to make a game"
15:53:57 <elliott> Gregor: Darn, it just came back. Apparently there's already a patent for that
15:54:06 <elliott> Only I'm litigious enough.
15:54:20 <elliott> "There's a patent for that. From Apple."
15:57:04 <elliott> pikhq: Does libavcodec do replaygain?
15:57:35 <elliott> Gregor: I wonder if you could actually get the "real" bounding box of a marquee...
15:57:55 <elliott> I guess internally, it actually has "100%" width, and just scrolls like that.
15:58:03 <elliott> But you could get the bounding box of all elements inside.
15:58:10 <elliott> Gregor: Of course it'd be easier with JS that actually moves stuff.
15:58:15 <elliott> Now to find a page that actually does that!
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16:00:09 <Gregor> elliott: Right now I don't even support JS that /adds/ stuff, e.g. Facebook's dynamic content.
16:00:24 <elliott> Gregor: I bet WebKit's API lets you hook into newly-created elemeeeents :P
16:00:47 <Gregor> I wouldn't need to if I just exposed a fast getElementsByRect.
16:01:01 <elliott> haha, you know Yvette's Bridal Formal?
16:01:08 <elliott> the worst designed website in the world?
16:09:18 <cpressey> I am aware of the work of Yvette, yes
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16:13:29 <elliott> cpressey: http://yvettesbridalformal.com/Fastings1.html -> "please click here to see what you came to see" -> http://yvettesbridalformal.com/Psychological_Thriller_Horror_Success.html
16:13:36 <elliott> [[There used to be alot more conspiracies, death letters, FEMA cover ups, but it seems like theyve been adding new material every so often. I'll edit this post later to make sure I link the yahoo answers community to other odd pages...feel free to use anything you find as a source. A bunch of us have been working on this site for weeks now trying to come up with something, but we keep coming to dead ends.]]
16:13:40 <elliott> Apparently she has a son who's either Schizophrenic or mentally ill
16:13:40 <elliott> Yvette no longer works there
16:13:40 <elliott> When company is called, there seems to be a snooty or suspicious person who picks up. Any questions pertaining to the website ends in a quick "Have a happy 2009"]]
16:13:47 <elliott> cpressey: tl;dr more than just a terrible web designer
16:15:06 <elliott> Gregor: Does installing plash on a system do anything weird to it? should I use a chroot?
16:15:14 <nooga> anyone played with Open MPI ?
16:15:27 <elliott> nooga: iirc cfunge has some openmpi code. lawl
16:17:44 <elliott> holy shit "/x/ discovered Yvette's a while ago, and they are 100% serious alien conspiracy theorists."
16:17:56 <cpressey> elliott: Ah. I thought you were going to tell us of the super fun of WebPlat on that page
16:18:02 <elliott> cpressey: tried that earlier
16:18:06 <elliott> it was super fun, but this is even funner
16:18:17 <elliott> dear god http://yvettesbridalformal.com/FineArtPanamaCity19.html
16:18:35 <elliott> [[A couple of guys from /x/ actually drove out there and talked with them and took some pictures in front of the place. The Yvette's site blogged about it later, but I'll be damned if I can find anything on that site.
16:18:36 <elliott> Apparently they told them that they were from an online magazine looking to investigate the link between the US government and aliens, and the Yvette's people talked with them (warily) for a good length of time.]]
16:18:41 <elliott> http://www.yvettesbridalformal.com/interview1.html
16:19:03 <elliott> "...........I didn't even know there was a
16:19:03 <elliott> magazine named UFO Magazine..........when I got
16:19:03 <elliott> to my PC I searched and sure enough, there is a
16:19:03 <elliott> magazine/Ezine of the title UFO
16:19:16 <elliott> "Frank seemed like an honest and decent sort of
16:19:16 <elliott> fellow......just an ordinary, regular guy.........like
16:19:16 <elliott> maybe someone who would ask you if he could
16:19:16 <elliott> borrow your lawnmower and actually bring it
16:19:16 <elliott> back to you after he mowed his lawn.............."
16:19:36 <elliott> cpressey: this is the greatest thing ever
16:20:03 <nooga> i'm trying to setup a small ompi cluster in a laboratory on my university
16:20:19 <elliott> the most famous painting in the world..........The
16:20:19 <elliott> Last Supper by Leonardo da Vinci.......the two
16:20:19 <elliott> central figures leaning away from each other to
16:20:19 <elliott> form a perfect V and on either side of the
16:20:20 <elliott> refectory hall, 4 tapestries for a total of 8.......
16:20:22 <elliott> yes, V8 encoded right there in broad daylight for
16:20:24 <elliott> all the world to see.........
16:20:26 <elliott> and why is everyone out of printer ink for their
16:20:32 <elliott> cpressey: "The Last Supper has a hidden encoded message, now what IS it with printer ink?"
16:20:51 <cpressey> it's way too early for this level of intense wisdom
16:21:14 <elliott> http://www.yvettesbridalformal.com/Lyra_V8_Sean_Terrence_Best.html
16:21:41 <elliott> http://www.yvettesbridalformal.com/sitebuilder/images/test196_028-450x600.jpg i think this is sean
16:22:01 <elliott> http://www.yvettesbridalformal.com/Alphabet_Angels_Alpha.html yeah another pic of him here
16:25:58 <elliott> http://yvettesbridalformal.com/aboutYvettesPortraitPainter1.html
16:27:29 <elliott> "I have been to yvette's, it is a lot like this: very colorful friendly place with lots of things moving. you can get a tuxedo and also get your portrait painted. they are very positive and believe in the power of dreams."
16:28:51 -!- Zuu has joined.
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16:28:51 -!- Zuu has joined.
16:29:06 <Vorpal> wtf is this encoding: ./share/libc/__fc_string_axiomatic.h: Non-ISO extended-ASCII C program text
16:29:23 <Vorpal> or anything I tried in my editor
16:29:41 <Vorpal> less manages to display the chars in it
16:29:48 <Vorpal> but both emacs and kate are totally lost
16:30:16 <Vorpal> I have UTF-8 locale set so not sure what less is trying
16:30:33 <elliott> does it have any weidr characters in it with less?
16:30:52 <elliott> Gregor: wait, why does plash development seem dormant?
16:30:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes: 𝔹 ℤ but they are intended
16:30:59 <elliott> news posts from 2007 and 2008, edgy eft as last mentioned ubuntu version
16:31:10 <elliott> Vorpal: copy it all from less and pastie it
16:31:14 <Vorpal> /* CEA (Commissariat <E0> l'<E9>nergie atomique et aux <E9>nergies */
16:31:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it might be mixed encodings
16:31:27 <elliott> Vorpal: copy it all from less and pastie it
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16:32:22 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway yeah it was mixed encoding, the copyright header was in some ISO-ish thingy while the rest was UTF-8
16:32:43 <elliott> Vorpal: please tell me the blackboard bold isn't just in comments or strings
16:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it is in C comments, but they are used for the proof.
16:33:39 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, they are used in the syntax of proof specification
16:34:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the file declares the concept of a 0-terminated string, looks quite scary
16:34:41 <elliott> Vorpal: i wanna seeeee and am lazy pastie
16:35:18 <elliott> cpressey: oh INTERESTING, apparently those recipe pages
16:35:23 <elliott> used to be conspiracy ones
16:35:44 <elliott> and google cache has updated
16:35:45 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/LFBe
16:35:52 <elliott> Vorpal: my browser handles it!
16:35:57 <elliott> Vorpal: wow at prefixing every line with @
16:36:07 <elliott> Vorpal: ...wow at that syntax :D
16:36:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah mine screws up the comment at the top
16:36:15 <elliott> "(char *s1, char *s2, ℤ n)"
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16:36:38 <Vorpal> elliott, is that good or bad? ;P
16:36:50 <elliott> i'm not sure what was wrong with "nat"
16:37:17 <elliott> Vorpal: have you ever used plash :|
16:37:18 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. Except it might conflict with a C variable, typedef or function called that
16:37:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. Except it might conflict with a C variable, typedef or function called that
16:37:28 <elliott> only as much as "char" might
16:37:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, they *are* the C types there
16:37:55 <Vorpal> elliott, yes ℤ is the logic type
16:38:10 <elliott> that distinction makes little sense
16:38:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it is proving stuff about variables of that C type
16:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well ℤ would be bignum I think
16:38:31 <Vorpal> unlike, say, an int or such
16:38:40 <Vorpal> for which it would model the overflow behaviour
16:39:16 <elliott> ...but the last argument to memcp could overflow
16:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I saw somewhere in the docs that C typedefs took priority in case of a name conflict, but you could always reach the logic types using the unicode equivalents.
16:40:09 <elliott> Vorpal: did they never think of just using an invalid char like $?
16:40:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know :P
16:41:20 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I don't understand all in there, but memcmp isn't used to describe a C function called that. It is used to represent the concept of comparing memory in order to be able to describe the concept of a null terminated string in the end.... I think.
16:41:47 <elliott> i will have to take your word for it
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16:43:22 <Gregor> Some program called ReportCrash is taking 100% CPU.
16:43:46 <cpressey> it's reporting a crash in ReportCrash
16:43:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait, are you using a mac!?
16:44:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: For my research I have stuff on EVERY MAJOR OS! Yes, that's right. Victory.
16:44:06 <Vorpal> elliott, or hm you could learn how it works :P
16:44:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, Solaris? HP-UX?
16:44:31 <Vorpal> wait, HP-UX isn't major
16:44:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: Solaris isn't major either.
16:44:36 <elliott> <Vorpal> [negates what you said]
16:44:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, what are the major ones then?
16:44:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Windows, Linux, OS X
16:44:56 <Gregor> Windows, Mac OS X, Linux.
16:45:09 <Vorpal> hm, sad it is only those that count as major these days
16:45:19 <Gregor> It's mostly sad that Windows is on the list :P
16:45:25 <elliott> Ever since OS X came out that's been it.
16:45:29 <Gregor> elliott: Solaris was big once. It was contender!
16:45:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well, go back to the 80s and it wasn't like that
16:45:34 <elliott> Before that, what, Mac OS was on the list too. And Windows was a lot bigger.
16:45:48 <elliott> Before that, WINDOWS WINDOWS WINDOWS, Mac OS.
16:45:53 <elliott> Before that, WINDOWS WINDOWS WINDOWS, OS/2.
16:46:18 <elliott> If you can call that an OS.
16:46:24 <Vorpal> elliott, and before that, SunOS and so on
16:46:28 <elliott> Rather than a few API functions, a filesystem and a shell :P
16:46:29 <Vorpal> and several other ones
16:46:29 <cpressey> I've got an iMac on my desk now
16:46:32 <Gregor> elliott: It calls itself an OS!
16:46:48 <Gregor> elliott: That's weird.
16:47:00 <Gregor> elliott: Also, I'm surprised you didn't use the Britlish spelling.
16:47:41 <cpressey> I think it should be parenthesized like (Disk Operating) System. It operates your disk.
16:47:44 <elliott> Gregor: Thanks, I just viewed the Wikipedia article "feces" to see if "faeces" was a hypercorrection (my usual justification for not using the British spelling).
16:47:57 <elliott> Gregor: I really don't care though :P
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16:48:21 <elliott> Gregor: I do hate "foetus", though, as it's just something that was invented because lots of Latin words have "oe" in them, right? Must be "foetus" really.
16:48:28 <Gregor> I raeally doen't caere.
16:48:36 <elliott> Actually it's "fetus" in Latin and the British medical literature even calls it that.
16:48:47 <elliott> Gregor: Nosrsly Plash, is it actually developed?
16:49:02 <Gregor> elliott: I had a chat with the main Plash dev a while ago.\
16:49:13 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, so their website is just ancient.
16:49:15 <nooga> there's no goddamn irc channel for open-mpi
16:49:18 <Gregor> elliott: It's still up to date in the repo, and it works on the latest glibc, there just hasn't been a /release/.
16:49:29 <elliott> Gregor: And their nightly repo appears to only go up to Ubuntu Edgy Eft.
16:49:45 <Gregor> elliott: That's just their auto-builds.
16:49:52 <elliott> Gregor: I really don't want to build it.
16:50:06 <Gregor> Hence why I just use lenny.
16:50:27 <elliott> Gregor: What, so I should make a Debian chroot to install it in?
16:50:48 <Gregor> Not ideally, but yeah >_>
16:50:59 <elliott> Gregor: Did *you* make a Debian chroot to install it in? :P
16:51:10 <elliott> Am I installing debootstrap right now? (Yes)
16:51:25 <Gregor> elliott: Hackiki and HackBot are in chroots.
16:51:28 <elliott> Gregor: Are *you* insane? (Yes.)
16:51:36 <Gregor> debootstrap is SO EASY
16:51:41 <elliott> E: debootstrap can only run as root
16:51:52 <nooga> how am i supposed to ask few simple questions
16:51:57 <Gregor> elliott: It needs to make dev files.
16:52:01 <elliott> Gregor: Your mom needs to--
16:52:10 <Gregor> elliott: Then it needs to chroot for the final step of installation.
16:52:11 <elliott> Gregor: OK, can I chown -R after that though? :P
16:52:21 <cpressey> nooga: open-mpi is way too SERIOUS BUSINESS for IRC :)
16:52:36 <Gregor> elliott: I ... suppose? But you can't chroot into it as non-root anyway ...
16:52:56 <elliott> Gregor: But having other people own stuff in my ~ feels disturbingly kinky. Wait, what? I mean disturbingly weird.
16:53:23 <elliott> Dear debootstrap: "debootstrap lenny --help" does NOT mean "create a directory called --help".
16:53:52 <elliott> Hokay, totally debootstrapping lenny.
16:54:41 <elliott> Gregor: How long is this gonna take? :P
16:54:47 <elliott> Well, I've debootstrapped on an ARM machine. But still.
16:54:51 <Gregor> elliott: Not as long as you think, longer than you'd like.
16:56:21 <Gregor> Thank you for correcting the spelling of "Yaaaaay" ...
16:57:58 <fizzie> elliott: I was expecting an "I: ed is ded" after that.
16:58:08 <elliott> Gregor: It... it's important!
16:58:15 <elliott> I also use * to reword sentences to be nicer after-the-fact.
16:59:15 <elliott> Rhythmbox's successor should be called Melodycube.
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17:01:29 <fizzie> I'll install the Timbreoctahedron.
17:01:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:03:17 <elliott> Gregor: So, uh, don't run Plash as root, yeah? :P
17:04:21 <fizzie> Spectromandelbulb, for the mathematically inclined listener.
17:04:41 <fizzie> Perhaps even the mathematically reclined.
17:06:59 <elliott> Gregor: So I want the nightly build things, right?
17:08:55 <Gregor> elliott: I use the release *shrugs*
17:09:45 <elliott> Gregor: LAWL it wants to install X11 libs.
17:09:56 <elliott> WARNING: untrusted versions of the following packages will be installed!
17:09:56 <elliott> Untrusted packages could compromise your system's security.
17:09:56 <elliott> You should only proceed with the installation if you are certain that
17:09:56 <elliott> this is what you want to do.
17:09:58 <elliott> Gregor: Now that *is* ironic.
17:10:08 <Gregor> Yeah, Plash has an utterly-useless "powerbox" feature that uses X ...
17:10:16 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, I'm installing it to test that out.
17:10:32 <elliott> It's a good idea fundamentally, I'm just not sure they can pull it off with the current state of graphical applications.
17:10:34 <Gregor> OK, utterly useless /to me/
17:10:43 <elliott> So I basically want to laugh at it.
17:11:08 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.combex.com/tech/edesk.html This is how it should actually be done :P
17:11:13 <elliott> (And one of the inspirations for the powerbox.)
17:12:19 <elliott> Gregor: It does seem awfully silly just to handle files.
17:12:27 <elliott> Because who will ever have resources on a network?
17:12:38 <Gregor> The problem is there technique /can't/ block network access.
17:12:49 <Gregor> Since you can always use the raw syscalls.
17:13:12 <elliott> Gregor: wait couldn't they disable them?
17:13:15 <elliott> and provide their own bsd sockets
17:13:19 <elliott> of course bsd sockets is so hilariously low-level
17:13:22 <elliott> as to make such a thing pointless
17:13:34 <elliott> SYSTEMS CONTINUE TO SUCK BECAUSE OF HOW SYSTEMS SUCK; NEWS AT 11
17:13:34 <Gregor> Hence why I disable them (with firewall) and provide an HTTP proxy.
17:14:06 <elliott> Gregor: Can you make debootstrap use hardlinks?
17:14:20 <Gregor> That WOULD be really nice ... but I doubt it.
17:14:21 <elliott> A bunch of chroots taking up effectively 0 additional space than if there was no chroot.
17:14:31 <elliott> Gregor: Probably you can make one and then just hardlink-copy it.
17:14:46 <elliott> I mean, I doubt it depends on what directory name you use. So it should work fine.
17:14:58 <elliott> Gregor: Of course, creating new hardlinks on updates and the like would be the issue.
17:15:01 <Gregor> elliott: Except you wouldn't want it to be ALL hardlinks, since you'd want an independent /etc.
17:15:03 <elliott> But *eh* you could probably automate it.
17:15:11 <elliott> Gregor: The default /etc files can be hardlinked.
17:15:16 <elliott> If you modify them, it'll no longer be hardlinked.
17:15:28 <Gregor> Depends on how who modifies them :)
17:15:28 <elliott> modifying a hardlinked file doesn't modify other links right?
17:15:36 <Gregor> Depends on the editor.
17:15:45 <elliott> Gregor: What editors do the stupid thing?
17:15:50 <elliott> (modify the other linked files)
17:16:06 <Gregor> echo 'foo' >> /etc/options
17:16:07 <elliott> Gregor: ooh, that probably breaks file-change notification daemons
17:16:15 <elliott> since the other linked files change
17:16:19 <elliott> but this isn't notified about
17:16:27 <elliott> (presumably, since that requires traversing the entire FS)
17:16:50 <elliott> Gregor: What about x=$(cat /etc/options); echo $x'foo' >/etc/options?
17:16:56 <elliott> Please don't tell me that behaves differently.
17:17:21 <Gregor> I'm actually not sure off the top of my head :P. I think that truncating it might cause recreation.
17:17:41 <elliott> Now I get to make $DISPLAY work from inside a chroot!
17:19:11 <Gregor> Copy .Xauthority from the host, make sure you have TCP enabled, use DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:whatever instead of DISPLAY=:whatever
17:19:16 <elliott> Huh, localhost.nl isn't registered. Isn't that against the lawz of DNSzzz?
17:19:37 <elliott> Gregor: I have no .Xauthority :-D
17:19:46 <elliott> TCP enabled in my X server, you mean?
17:19:53 <elliott> Can I enable that without restarting X?
17:19:56 <elliott> Say yes or I will kill you.
17:20:52 <Gregor> Alternatively, punt and start Xephyr with whatever option tells it to not do any permissions checks :P
17:21:11 <elliott> Gregor: Or... ssh in to the chroot and use X forwarding.
17:21:12 <Gregor> Alternatively alternatively, install a VNC server in the chroot.
17:21:21 <Gregor> Alternatively alternatively alternatively, do that.
17:21:46 <elliott> "How many pigs do I have? Alternatively, alternatively alternatively, alternatively alternatively alternatively..."
17:22:21 <Gregor> How many bigs do I have? One metric lot.
17:22:41 <elliott> -retro start with classic stipple and cursor
17:24:32 <elliott> Gregor: Haha wow, metacity thinks compositing is a good idea in Xephyr.
17:25:11 <elliott> WOW metacity has a lot of dependencies.
17:28:02 <elliott> -I ignore all remaining arguments
17:30:46 <elliott> powerbox.Powerbox(user_namespace = state.caller_root,
17:30:46 <elliott> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'Powerbox'
17:31:42 <elliott> Gregor: Running your WM with pola-run SO DOESN'T WORK
17:32:04 <elliott> sh-3.2$ pola-run -B --prog /usr/bin/icewm-lite --env DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:1 --x11 --pet-name IceWM
17:32:04 <elliott> /usr/bin/icewm-lite: error while loading shared libraries: libgcc_s.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:32:12 <Gregor> Well that's a weird one.
17:32:24 <Gregor> ls -l /usr/lib/libgcc_s.so.1
17:32:37 <elliott> -fl /lib doesn't help though
17:32:40 <Gregor> ls -l /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 then :P
17:32:51 <Gregor> If that's a symlink to somewhere weird, that would be the issue.
17:33:00 <Gregor> Don't know why it would be though.
17:33:06 <elliott> l Follow symbolic links (the "l" is for "foLLow"). If sym-
17:33:17 <elliott> sh-3.2$ ls -l /lib/libgcc_s.so.1
17:33:17 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 93016 Jan 2 2009 /lib/libgcc_s.so.1
17:34:21 <Vorpal> elliott, from example output in the manual: "Warning : entering loop for the first time", it states this is completely normal.
17:34:39 <elliott> Gregor: I guess I oughta trust my WM :P
17:35:02 <Gregor> elliott: Well, it also oughtn't to have that problem >_>
17:35:05 <Vorpal> elliott, while the software is indeed screwy, it actually seems to do the job damn well.
17:35:36 <elliott> Gregor: I LOVE THE PART WHERE GTK STUFF DOESN'T LISTEN TO $DISPLAY.
17:36:26 <elliott> Gregor: Plash is such a gigantic hack :P
17:36:44 <Gregor> elliott: But it works.
17:36:55 <Gregor> Well, maybe powerbox doesn't :P
17:37:12 <elliott> leafpad: can't save config file - /home/u/.config/leafpad/leafpadrc
17:37:25 * Gregor is morbidly amused by his icon-character's death.
17:37:47 <elliott> The smallest enemies, right
17:37:52 <elliott> Little tiny critters that are only a mild annoyance
17:37:55 <elliott> Gregor: Make them the favicon.
17:38:06 <elliott> It doesn't want you to steal its images!
17:38:34 <Vorpal> elliott, frama-c normalises the source code as an early step of the analysis, but I wonder why it turns *ptr++ = val; into: (where "unsigned char val, *ptr;") into:
17:38:35 <Vorpal> unsigned char tmp = ptr;
17:38:36 <Vorpal> *tmp = (unsigned char) val;
17:38:41 <Vorpal> that seems a backward way to normalise it
17:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a more logical way to do it would be:
17:39:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe it relies on a certain evaluation order for some reason or something.
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17:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott, awesome thing I just noticed: frama-c documentation uses spivak in at least one place
17:43:04 <elliott> Gregor: Ahh, that marshalling error is when a program doesn't have access to itself :P
17:43:18 <Gregor> elliott: ... laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
17:44:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what language is plash coded in?
17:44:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably mostly C and then Python for the tools
17:44:47 <quintopia> actually, favicon enemies would be cool...if they dropped out of the address bar entirely, grew a face and legs, and could charge at you really fast...and could respawn at the address bar!
17:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, considering it's security-criticallity it is imperative that it should be formally proved! Go do it!
17:45:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, that sounds like "no the browser won't let you do that"
17:46:02 <quintopia> Vorpal: that's what i was thinking
17:47:10 <Gregor> They could just drop from above the visible page.
17:47:21 <Gregor> They can't actually drop from the browser chrome, but they can drop from "nowhere"
17:47:50 <elliott> Gregor: Especially since you're totally making it an application and therefore it won't have any chrome >_>
17:48:07 <Vorpal> wait, youtube changed logo?
17:48:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah it's a total rebrand.
17:48:32 <Gregor> elliott: At this point my plan is to make that a branch. There's really only a few things the browser can help me with, so having those as optional is still a nice option.
17:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, people knew the old logo
17:48:59 <elliott> Vorpal has never seen occasion-specific logos before.
17:49:08 <Vorpal> elliott, oh is that what it is
17:49:22 <elliott> Gregor: But bookmarklets are fugly :P
17:49:35 <elliott> Vorpal: try clicking the thing to the right of Tube.
17:49:43 <Gregor> elliott: Apps for web-based things are also fugly. Having both options is less fugly than either option.
17:49:53 <elliott> Gregor: It's hardly "web-based" :P
17:49:59 <elliott> It's a game that uses web pages.
17:50:10 <elliott> It's not a web agme in the sense of, say, a Flash game.
17:50:21 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but it doesn't work without flash whatever it is
17:50:35 <elliott> Gregor: I WANT TO CRYYYY BECAUSE OF VORPAL
17:50:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, I normally use youtube-dl...
17:50:40 <Gregor> elliott: Me toooooooooooooo
17:50:48 <Gregor> Oh, he's still on YouTube :P
17:51:02 <elliott> And I know Vorpal's... in Sweden.
17:51:09 <Gregor> elliott: I have a mullet.
17:51:10 <elliott> Meet you in Stockholm in a few hours.
17:51:15 <Gregor> elliott: I'm offering you a piece of bread.
17:51:23 <Gregor> elliott: How can you possibly refuse a man with a mullet. Piece o' bread.
17:52:16 <elliott> Gregor: Are you suuuuuure that powerbox is in the default thing.
17:52:19 <elliott> You know, the thing with a thing.
17:52:49 * Gregor tries desperately to interpret that as words.
17:52:54 <Gregor> You do have to enable it with an option.
17:52:57 <elliott> Gregor: The. Plash package.
17:53:05 <elliott> yes it says the powerbox module has no powerbox in it.
17:53:12 <elliott> which is sort of non-reassuring from a reassuring-things standpoint of view
17:53:19 <Gregor> No, I'm not sure it's in the package.
17:53:25 <Gregor> Maybe it's plash-powerbox or something.
17:53:31 <elliott> yeah there's nothing else although
17:53:34 <elliott> the repo *does* have two packages
17:53:37 <elliott> but i dunno what the other is because i'm lazy
17:53:43 <elliott> sh-3.2$ aptitude search powerbox
17:53:57 <Gregor> What's the other package?
17:55:53 <elliott> quintopia: a box with power inside
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17:56:17 <elliott> Gregor: The other package is just glib-source.
17:56:30 <elliott> quintopia: It's what happens when you stop believing.
17:56:34 <Gregor> elliott: Lamesauce ... maybe you need to -f in the path for powerbox ;)
17:56:36 <Vorpal> elliott, hm C totally needs mode unicode syntax
17:57:11 <Gregor> quintopia: http://plash.beasts.org/ <-- step one, know what Plash is. I don't want to explain Plash :P
17:57:28 <elliott> Powerbox is... all you've ever wanted.
17:57:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, it's a plash thing
17:57:43 <Gregor> Powerbox makes it so when you try to access something that you don't have permission for, rather than just failing it pops up a box.
17:57:46 <elliott> It's a thingy plash thing thing.
17:57:47 <Gregor> Asking whether the access is OK.
17:57:53 <elliott> Gregor: Technically not really.
17:57:57 <elliott> It's more a replacement file chooser.
17:58:11 <quintopia> for...when you have actual users running under plash?
17:58:12 <elliott> Dear god, someone's ported PowerShell to other operating systems.
17:58:25 <Vorpal> elliott, but isn't it closed source?
17:58:37 <Vorpal> elliott, so... just wine or what?
17:58:41 <elliott> http://pash.sourceforge.net/
17:59:10 <Vorpal> oh, reimplementation. Still very bad
17:59:41 <elliott> THIS IS INEXPLICABLEDDDDDDDDDH
18:00:41 <Vorpal> elliott, also they seem to like the word "rich"
18:00:51 <Vorpal> I'm not even sure what the heck it is supposed to mean there
18:01:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: You're just not understanding-rich enough to understand it.
18:03:01 <elliott> WHY THIS NO THE WORK IN THE BIT WHAT THE IM FFFF
18:03:42 <elliott> "Grant access to a file or directory (source-pathname), but attach it to a different pathname in the file namespace(dest-pathname). "
18:03:56 <elliott> Expose ~/.foo as ~/config/foo :P
18:06:32 <Gregor> elliott: I use that for /tmp
18:07:00 <elliott> /tmp inside maps to /tmp/FOO/ outside?
18:07:08 <elliott> or /foo inside maps to /tmp outside
18:07:17 <Gregor> elliott: /tmp maps to /tmp/foo.$$, yeah.
18:07:32 <Gregor> OMG WEBSPLAT WORKS ON MY PHONE
18:08:15 <Gregor> Unfortunately bookmarklets don't, so it only works directly on the page.
18:08:38 <elliott> quintopia: Without a keyboard? Good luck :P
18:09:09 <quintopia> well i can at least see if it loads
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18:10:20 <elliott> Gregor: Lame, -fl,w=foo doesn't work if foo doesn't exist
18:10:24 <Gregor> Luckily my phone has a computer :P
18:10:30 <elliott> -fl,w="$HOME/.config/leafpad"
18:10:31 <Gregor> Luckily my phone has a keyboard :P
18:10:37 <quintopia> alright, it may take forever to load......
18:10:39 <elliott> My phone has a computer too!
18:10:55 <quintopia> let's say it works if you can wait for an infinite amount of time
18:11:38 <elliott> Gregor: Things that suck about Plash for desktop use: You have to trust your menu with complete privileges :P
18:11:51 <elliott> "EXPLOIT IN GNOME-PLASH-MENU FOUND"
18:11:54 <elliott> "AAAAAAAAH OH GOD HOLY SHIT"
18:12:14 <elliott> [ten bajillion hax0rs exploit it overnight]
18:12:30 <elliott> It could just tell its parent, "yo, start this program".
18:12:38 <elliott> And its parent would only allow it to give a name.
18:12:51 <elliott> It would then look up, e.g. /etc/plash/apps/[name] and use those options.
18:12:59 <Vorpal> elliott, gnome-plash-menu? what, really?
18:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal continues to demonstrate his lack of one-line scrollback
18:13:25 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Things that suck about Plash for desktop use: You have to trust your menu with complete privileges :P
18:13:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is meant to run untrusted code
18:13:50 <quintopia> Vorpal is expressing incredulity that such a thing would be created
18:14:03 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes I was doing that
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18:14:20 <elliott> no, it sounded like you were wondering if gnome-plash-menu actually existed.
18:14:20 <quintopia> it's rather more obvious that such a thing would be created
18:14:21 <Vorpal> elliott, it needs to get privs to chroot, then drop them
18:14:39 <elliott> Gregor: Please transport me to a world where people can actually understand what I say X_X
18:15:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see why it need to be very risky to have a small wrapper that takes a path and executes it securely inside a plash chroot
18:15:28 <quintopia> elliott: why wouldn't you want to go to a world where you can understand what other people say? that seems infinitely more useful
18:15:40 <elliott> quintopia: because even when i understand what Vorpal says, it's still stupid
18:16:10 <quintopia> elliott: yes, but if i were in such a world, i could understand what you say when you're being particularly unclear
18:16:27 <elliott> yes, but it's not where you'd go
18:16:52 <quintopia> yes, so you could receive that same advantage when i'm being unclear
18:17:09 <elliott> no, because the world where i can understand others perfectly
18:17:11 <quintopia> we could both go there, and we'd both understand each other perfectly
18:17:15 <elliott> isn't also the world where others can understand me
18:17:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, elliott: why not go to a world with perfect understanding in both directions?
18:17:19 <elliott> quintopia: who said you can go anywhere?
18:17:28 <elliott> you get to stay in this shithole :D
18:17:51 <quintopia> a world where "x can understand everything anyone says when x goes there"
18:18:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, no I meant for communication back to here
18:18:22 <quintopia> who wants to communicate back to here?
18:18:30 <quintopia> this other world would be so much better...
18:18:40 <elliott> Vorpal can never go to the other world, because it is literally impossible to understand anything he says
18:18:49 <elliott> wonder how much tickets cost
18:19:15 <quintopia> elliott: approximately two lisp machines
18:19:48 <elliott> hell, people will perfectly understand why i need lisp machines to continue my wonderful work there
18:20:11 <quintopia> indeed, but you have to pay two lisp machines to get tix there in the first place
18:20:36 <elliott> the money for two lisp machines
18:20:45 <elliott> 1) paradise + two lisp machines
18:23:28 <quintopia> i just forgot i was supposed to be giving a presentation today in 15 minutes. i didn't make a presentation
18:23:42 <quintopia> it's been rescheduled for tuesday, but i still feel like a failure
18:24:00 <elliott> dialog = gtk.FileChooserDialog()
18:24:28 <elliott> Gregor: Powerbox is BROKEN BROKEN BROKEN
18:26:40 <Vorpal> elliott, know anything about formal verification for haskell code? Such as what tools are available and how good they are?
18:26:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Here's how you do that:
18:27:03 <elliott> Vorpal: - Write your library in Coq, prove it there.
18:27:08 <elliott> Vorpal: - Extract it to Haskell.
18:27:20 <elliott> Vorpal: - If you want, write a Haskell module wrapping your functions to give some nicer interface stuff.
18:27:32 <elliott> (That you have trivially wrapped the functions correctly is up to you to verify.)
18:27:59 <Vorpal> elliott, is the resulting code as slow as coq or?
18:28:13 <elliott> Gregor: I have a WM running under plash \o/
18:28:19 <elliott> Vorpal: It extracts it to normal Haskell code.
18:28:26 <elliott> A bit more explicit recursion than you'd expect, but...
18:28:30 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, now nobody can exploit IceWM!
18:28:36 <quintopia> elliott: why would you want to do that?
18:29:08 <quintopia> well, most folks get along without it...
18:29:10 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, sounds awesome. Is that how everyone does it, or are there alternative ways, more like annotating haskell code and then proving it?
18:29:33 <elliott> Vorpal: There are no such ways as far as I know.
18:29:48 <elliott> quintopia: Dude, this is #esoteric. We do shit for the hell of it.
18:29:49 <Vorpal> elliott, because, doesn't coq require that your program terminates, which would make proving and extracting a main loop a bit tricky
18:30:14 <elliott> Vorpal: It... there... You're asking way too general questions, bother someone else :p
18:30:22 <elliott> I'm no expert, but, yeah, .
18:30:26 <Gregor> http://codu.org/projects/websplat/ has a TODO list by the way.
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18:30:59 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I guess you could do a trivial mainloop wrapper around a function that just did the main loop once
18:31:08 <Vorpal> not sure how to model state then but meh
18:31:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Coq is more advanced than you think it is.
18:31:25 <Vorpal> (state, as in finite state machine passed as a parameter or such)
18:31:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I know it is a hell of a lot of advanced :P
18:32:57 <quintopia> Gregor: what about long term todos?
18:33:20 <Gregor> quintopia: I only have short-term todos right now :P
18:33:55 <elliott> Gregor: By the way, you accelerate indefinitely while falling right?
18:34:04 <quintopia> you said once you planned to make it multiplayer? did you mean internetworked multiplayer or just "you use the arrows, i'll use wasd"?
18:34:16 <elliott> Gregor: "slightly-enhacned"
18:34:22 <elliott> Multiplayer will be easy when he makes it an application :P
18:34:36 <Gregor> quintopia: Internet multiplayer, and that would require a more-than-slightly-enhanced browser, right now I'm considering it hyper-long-term TODO.
18:34:45 <quintopia> elliot: the falling sprites include wind effects, so it would be inconsistent not to have a terminal velocity
18:34:46 <Gregor> elliott: Actually the biggest problem with that isn't solved even by having an application.
18:34:54 <Gregor> elliott: Eepending on the environment, you won't render the page the same.
18:35:07 <elliott> Gregor: That's true, but...
18:35:27 <elliott> Gregor: Have multiplayer mode use a codu proxy for every page.
18:35:30 <elliott> Maybe disable cookies too.
18:35:35 <elliott> Gregor: And, of course, don't allow any sort of WebKit tweaking.
18:35:51 <Gregor> And don't allow browser windows of different sizes or different fonts.
18:35:53 <elliott> Gregor: Randomness doesn't affect it because you get the same page from the codu proxy. OK so javascript randomness would break it.
18:36:19 <elliott> Gregor: If the page uses any fonts, check both of you have them.
18:36:26 <quintopia> i think all that is solved by having it be an application: if the application is the only one doing the rendering then it will always be the same, yes?
18:36:29 <elliott> And make you two agree on a window size -- or just force 800x600.
18:36:33 <elliott> quintopia: See everything above .........
18:36:53 <quintopia> elliott: you're assuming the application uses an external renderer
18:37:09 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm not writing a new rendering engine :P
18:37:19 <quintopia> well, that would solve the problem wouldn't it?
18:37:27 <Gregor> elliott: "Both of you" -- so this is no longer MMO, just MP
18:37:35 <elliott> Gregor: For MMO, just fix it at 800x600.
18:37:50 <Gregor> And assume the fonts are close enough? :P
18:37:54 <elliott> quintopia: Other things that would "solve the problem": Make everyone go to a farm of identical computers where Gregor lives to play
18:38:16 <elliott> Gregor: How about: Have a list of what fonts are sans, serif, monospaced; replace them with a single generic font for each of those types.
18:38:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: And, of course, don't allow any sort of WebKit tweaking. <-- ?
18:38:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what tweaking are you referring to?
18:38:51 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe the font used on the page at any given time is the font being used by the person who has the least fontso n it.
18:39:02 <elliott> and someone hasn't got A or B but has C
18:39:06 <elliott> even if that person leaves
18:39:09 <elliott> (to avoid disrupting things)
18:39:21 <elliott> Gregor: and if someone comes in with just D, it tells them to eff off
18:39:24 <elliott> Gregor: ...actually fuck that
18:39:28 <elliott> if someone came in with Super Obscure Font A
18:39:32 <elliott> then nobody else would get in
18:39:34 <elliott> Gregor: <elliott> Gregor: How about: Have a list of what fonts are sans, serif, monospaced; replace them with a single generic font for each of those types.
18:39:40 <elliott> <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: And, of course, don't allow any sort of WebKit tweaking. <-- ?
18:39:41 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, what tweaking are you referring to?
18:40:05 <quintopia> HERE YOU GO EVERYONE. HERE'S YOUR SEED.
18:40:12 <elliott> Gregor: Okay so it's not easy, but all this normalising stuff adds up to maybe 500-2,000 lines of code.
18:40:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, anything happening with zee or is it still ENOSTORY?
18:40:15 <elliott> Gregor: Plus a tiny codu.org HTTP proxy.
18:40:18 <Gregor> I honestly don't think randomness is soing to be an issue.
18:40:28 <elliott> Gregor: Well, yes, but in pathological cases... easy enough just to srand.
18:40:42 <elliott> Gregor: And, I mean, it would be FRIGGIN' SWEET.
18:40:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, but you had an awesome one about a hacker that you told me some months ago?
18:41:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's the baseline story, but that just gets you INTO the game, it's not the game :P
18:41:40 <elliott> Gregor: OMG I KNOW WHAT THE HATS CAN BE USED FOR
18:41:46 <elliott> Sure, it limits you to 30 people per page but.
18:41:49 <Vorpal> elliott, there is no way zee can be done without a story
18:42:04 <Gregor> TOO MANY TOPICS AT ONCE *brain asplote*
18:42:12 <elliott> Gregor: Actually that's lame,
18:42:17 <elliott> Gregor: Hats should totally be powerups.
18:42:21 <elliott> Vorpal: ...what do you mean, "how"?
18:42:34 <quintopia> elliott: multiplay will require truly different sprites for every player...
18:42:42 <Vorpal> elliott, how would zee make sense without a story
18:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it is inherently story-oriented
18:42:57 <elliott> quintopia: Just change the shirt/pants colour and have a name tag above everyone.
18:43:06 <quintopia> elliott: color replacement is possible but still takes time
18:43:10 <elliott> Vorpal: "Why can't you do ZEE without a story?" "Because you can't do ZEE without a story!"
18:43:40 <Gregor> The whole idea is to find clues within pictures.
18:43:53 <elliott> Gregor: So make the clues abstract and meaningless :P
18:43:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it wouldn't just make any sense, I mean, the gameplay become pointless without a goal induced by a story
18:43:59 <Gregor> For the clues to be interesting, they have to fit into a context.
18:44:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Pinball is also pointless.
18:44:28 <Gregor> I suppose without context, ZEE becomes ultra-where's-Waldo.
18:44:34 <Gregor> Which is a playable game, but not really what I'm going for.
18:44:41 <Vorpal> elliott, so would you like a text adventure or table top RPG without any sort of story?
18:44:58 <Gregor> There are things here.
18:46:18 <quintopia> "You are in a place describable by many adjectives, and containing many points of interest. You can make choices. Choose or don't choose?"
18:46:46 <quintopia> "You choose to go in a direction that leads to another place."
18:47:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, too much of a story
18:47:38 <elliott> You can go direction-1, direction-2, direction-3 and direction-4.
18:47:50 <quintopia> but that same sequence repeats in every place you go...how is that a story?
18:48:11 <elliott> "You are in node 34 of a graph. There are arcs to nodes 12, 38, 382 and 3."
18:48:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, what happens if you don't chose?
18:48:46 <quintopia> Vorpal: "You are in a place still. It is still like it was a moment ago. Choose or don't choose?"
18:49:05 <Gregor> You are playing a text adventure game. Do you continue or quit?
18:49:15 <elliott> You are playing a text adventure game. Do you continue or quit?
18:49:19 <elliott> You continue playing the game.
18:49:22 <elliott> You continue playing the game.
18:49:28 <elliott> You stop playing the game.
18:49:32 <elliott> You are playing a text adventure game. Do you continue or quit?
18:49:40 <Vorpal> I preferred Gregor's too
18:49:47 <quintopia> since it makes a subtle reference to War Games
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18:49:59 <elliott> i am not certain that reference was intentional...
18:50:11 <Gregor> I didn't intend it that way so much as just an insult to text-adventure games, but OK :P
18:50:19 <Vorpal> elliott, ... do I look stupid?
18:50:31 <elliott> Vorpal: And you've asked that before.
18:51:29 <Gregor> You are playing tic-tac-toe. Do you continue playing, forfeit, or beat your opponent over the head with a rusty pipe?
18:51:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well I know what they are nowdays. If I asked (can't say I remember asking that), I presumably learnt about it then
18:51:36 <Gregor> > beat opponent with pipe
18:51:51 <elliott> I think Vorpal thinks I just mean "wargames".
18:51:58 <elliott> Because he's an idiot, you see.
18:52:53 <quintopia> You are playing tic-tac-toe. Do you continue, forfeit, or beat Col. Mustard in the Conservatory with a lead pipe?
18:53:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well, yes I thought quintopia meant wargames. Since that is what e wrote.
18:53:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, that is different from WarGames
18:53:54 * Gregor bashes his head into this conversation.
18:54:09 <elliott> Gregor: I actually thought Vorpal might have demonstrated knowledge beyond what I would have expected of him for a second.
18:54:32 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes indeed, which meant either interpretation was a possible fuzzy match
18:54:37 <cpressey> < elliott> "You are in node 34 of a graph. There are arcs to nodes 12, 38, 382 and 3."
18:54:42 <cpressey> you realize what this is, right
18:54:50 <cpressey> I mean there should only be 3 arcs
18:54:56 <quintopia> a maze of twisty little passages all alike?
18:55:11 <cpressey> OK, so 38 is probably too high too
18:55:18 <elliott> cpressey: I was envisioning it as rooms
18:55:20 <elliott> And the arcs are directions
18:55:34 <cpressey> Vorpal: way to even out the demonstrated knowledge score :)
18:56:37 <Gregor> I'm gonna go with cpressey: Way to win a "fails to understand abstraction humor" point.
18:56:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, it is utterly obvious it has to be wumpus. Just add an attribute to each node that can have the value {normal,bats,pit} and the wumups and then you are done
18:57:02 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, who wins that?
18:57:09 <cpressey> Gregor's adventures in javascript have given me a sick idea.
18:57:12 <quintopia> You are standing in a tesseract. Exits N,E,S,W,U,D,M,G.
18:57:17 <Gregor> cpressey: I like sick ideas!
18:57:25 <elliott> Gregor: Let's rape a kitten!
18:58:51 <quintopia> THE SUSPENSE IS U N B E A R A B L E
18:59:42 <cpressey> quintopia: combine jQuery and underload somehow
18:59:44 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder how smallX is so small.
18:59:59 <cpressey> to loop, you create new DOM elements, then interpret those, etc
19:00:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, did you write that wumpus in b93 or was it someone else who did?
19:00:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: someone else. Wim Rijnders, I believe was his name
19:00:16 <elliott> cpressey wrote all befunge software ever
19:01:21 <Vorpal> elliott, why is that supposed to be funny?
19:02:46 <quintopia> because it makes fun of you in a way? that's probably all there is to it
19:04:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, it didn't really. I nowhere indicated that I thought cpressey wrote all. It was just that I got it from his website...
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19:04:51 <quintopia> it implied that it was something that you might think
19:06:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, which was however utterly untrue.
19:07:18 <nooga> do you guys know some examples of problems that can be easily parallelized?
19:07:33 <nooga> raytracing, or seeking prime numbers
19:08:16 <elliott> nooga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarrassingly_parallel
19:08:43 <Vorpal> nooga, sorting, by merge sort (for example). Cache effects will probably make it a bit worse on most common computers
19:09:16 <Vorpal> (as in, sub-embarrassingly)
19:09:45 <Vorpal> elliott, did you see the /msg?
19:10:22 <nooga> i wouldn;t think about word 'embarrassingly'
19:10:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess not then, I shall however consider the /msg implicitly acked by your actions
19:10:44 <elliott> nooga: it's a bit of a colourful term.
19:11:05 <nooga> i think i will take fractal stuff
19:11:17 <nooga> i need simple problem to focus on open-mpi stuff
19:11:51 <nooga> and also i will get some nice, colorful pictures that can be showed to students
19:11:57 <elliott> "Date adopted: William Blake"
19:18:44 <Ilari> Last really easily parallelizable problem I worked with was raytracing an animation...
19:19:08 <Ilari> One could just render 8 frames in parallel...
19:25:08 <Gregor> Graphics is full of embarrassingly parallel problems.
19:25:18 <Gregor> With raytracing you can also render thousands of RAYS in parallel.
19:25:38 <elliott> THOUSANDS OF RAYS YAAAAAAAAR
19:25:59 <elliott> Gregor: It's a bit intuitive: lots of pixels, usually don't depend on one another, kerching.
19:26:09 <Gregor> Or you can do photon-tracing instead. All the quality of ray-tracing with none of the benefits!
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19:31:34 <Gregor> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Glas-1000-enery.jpg <-- photon mapping uncanny valley ahoy!
19:32:16 <Vorpal> <elliott> "Date adopted: William Blake" <-- where is that interesting failure?
19:33:17 <quintopia> gregor: damn that is so close. if it were people, i'd be distrubed
19:33:20 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Glas-1000-enery.jpg <-- photon mapping uncanny valley ahoy! <-- looks great
19:33:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, a bit too clean and perfect to be realistic of course
19:33:34 <quintopia> but a wine glass isn't disturbing for some reason
19:33:42 <Gregor> Vorpal: Exactly. Uncanny valley.
19:33:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, you could add some dust or such perhaps?
19:34:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: I couldn't, but someone could :P
19:34:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, well it might be without fingerprints, if gloves were used
19:34:33 <Gregor> Fine, but dust/particulate in the air.
19:34:37 <quintopia> i think it has more to do with the lighting on the floor
19:34:47 <elliott> the glass is a bit too perfect too
19:34:52 <elliott> especially near the extreme points
19:35:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it actually looks quite okay at the top
19:35:48 <Vorpal> just not where the "cup" joins up with the "non-cup" (presumably there are technical terms for these parts?)
19:35:52 <Ilari> The glass almost seems to float a bit in the air (probably really isn't)...
19:36:06 <quintopia> i think it's cool that we know enough optics to know how individual photons behave in situations like that tho.
19:36:10 <Vorpal> Ilari, there is that too
19:36:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, what tool was used to render it?
19:36:38 <Gregor> <person living in any time> It's nice to be alive today, for today we have <technology> and no perspective.
19:36:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, I can't trace it back since you gave me a link to the actual image
19:36:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: Idonno, just found it on the Wikipedia "photon mapping" page :P
19:37:02 <Ilari> There are other things too where the only way to distinguish natural and artifical is that artifical is "too perfect".
19:37:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, It is nice to be alive today, because we are still alive.
19:37:19 <elliott> Gregor: It's nice to be alive today, for today we have specific places to go shit and no perspective.
19:37:33 <elliott> It's nice to be alive today, for today we have Vorpal and no perspective.
19:37:39 <Gregor> It is nice to be alive today, because the alternative is being dead.
19:38:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, (hey, wait, you did realise I was joking right?)
19:38:16 <quintopia> it's nice to be a conscious sentient and sapient entity today, for the alternative might be being a sponge
19:39:16 * quintopia imagines what it might be like to be spongebob squarepants
19:39:20 <elliott> It's nice to be alive today, because otherwise it might be tomorrow.
19:39:31 <Ilari> Also, the lines where the segments of wood floor join look unnatural (no dark line due to gap).
19:39:50 <elliott> Ilari: Might be fake wood flooring.
19:40:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait, "<Gregor> Or you can do photon-tracing instead. All the quality of ray-tracing with none of the benefits!" <-- I thought there were stuff you could do with photon mapping that you couldn't do with ray tracing? Or is photon tracing different from photon mapping?
19:40:34 <Ilari> Even well done flooring has narrow dark lines.
19:40:43 <quintopia> Ilari: there are in fact such lines
19:41:09 <quintopia> actually, i think this is a large wooden table
19:41:17 <quintopia> it has the feel of furniture more than flooring
19:41:20 <Gregor> Vorpal: Photon tracing is actually more powerful than photon mapping, and there is stuff you can do with either that you can't do with ray tracing.
19:41:21 <Vorpal> Ilari, another thing wrong with the image: too sharp, perfect focus all the way
19:41:30 <Gregor> Vorpal: But both are so crazy-expensive that they're not worth it.
19:41:38 <elliott> You create a universe in a box
19:41:43 <elliott> And you put your objects in the box
19:41:48 <elliott> And fire them inside the box
19:41:54 <elliott> They have little microchips in
19:42:09 <quintopia> vorpal: that's not due to lack of realism. a camera set on infinite focus would do the same. or any orthographic projecting camera.
19:44:09 <Vorpal> quintopia, a camera set on infinite would be blurred in the foreground, even with smallest shutter it isn't perfect. Also there would be other artifacts from the camera. Such as slight noise in the image.
19:45:24 <Vorpal> quintopia, this image for example looks way more real (because it is): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Kaustik.jpg
19:45:50 <quintopia> vorpal: arguably it looks fake because it doesn't look like what we're used to (the view through a typical camera or our own eyes). but what we're seeing here may be more "real" than what our eyes see in the same situation. thus, it's in the uncanny valley because it is "too real" rather than because it is not real enough.
19:45:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: Totally 'shopped.
19:46:13 <quintopia> sort of the same as people thinking high frame rate movies look cheap, just because that is what camcorders produce.
19:46:27 <elliott> Gregor: I can tell by the pixels.
19:46:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, alternative answer: yes, I guess someone bought that glass in a shop
19:47:29 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Glasses_800_edit.png
19:47:34 <elliott> If this was slightly more noisy, it would be very uncanny valley.
19:47:54 <elliott> Dirty up the table a bit, add some imperfection in the glasses...
19:48:06 <Vorpal> elliott, that is way more realistic than the other glass though
19:48:22 <Vorpal> elliott, also I seem to remember that one was rendered with povray
19:48:23 <elliott> It's not quite uncanny valley right now.
19:48:45 <Vorpal> elliott, no or limited caustics in it
19:49:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, if I look at stuff around me, they aren't perfect, there are small imperfections, stuff worn flat or chipped, grey dust on blank black surfaces. And so on
19:50:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, the rendered images here are missing that
19:50:22 <Vorpal> that is really only an issue if you see stuff close up in the image
19:50:43 <Vorpal> if it is a more zoomed out view then it generally works better in 3D.
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19:56:24 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, wrt the "@ at every line", it isn't required it seems. Just the way everyone does it
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20:01:16 <Vorpal> Ilari, asking me? Then: No, the annotations for a formal verification system for C
20:02:09 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/INDEX.html kind of sort of lists the author of every one of those Befunge-93 example sources
20:02:32 <elliott> cpressey: I like to think that the intention of that page is to list every Befunge-93 prorgam ever.
20:02:47 <elliott> I like to imagine Lahey is a famous mathematician for inventing Lahey space.
20:02:54 <elliott> Which REVOLUTIONARISED wrapping geometry.
20:03:02 <elliott> *REVOLUTIONISED? Maybe not!
20:03:34 <fizzie> Hey, my HSV gar-collaborative-field thing went through: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=519
20:03:50 <fizzie> That was fast; I was under the impression that the strip queue there is something like half a year long.
20:04:31 <elliott> fizzie: Manyhills totally ruined that :P
20:05:00 <elliott> fizzie: Did your Piet one get printed?
20:05:43 <fizzie> elliott: It got added to the queue, but since I sent it (a week or two) later than this one, it hasn't come out yet.
20:06:14 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=514 this isn't really funny, it's just two strips!
20:06:26 <elliott> i guess the first one may not be the one referenced in the second one
20:06:30 <elliott> if the second one actually references any real strip
20:07:23 <elliott> fizzie: "Admin note: This submission was so timely and appropriate, I made a special exception and inserted it into the queue in place of another strip. (This is a *very* rare exception - it takes a lot of work to mess with the buffer queue.)"
20:07:28 <elliott> fizzie: I doubt that that happened to you.
20:07:33 <elliott> fizzie: So perhaps the queue isn't so long.
20:07:47 <elliott> After all, that strip mentioned a massive backlog and it's recent.
20:09:04 <elliott> fizzie: Oh jesus: "Garfield Pine Nuts Garfield"
20:11:35 <quintopia> so this is like some spinoff of garfield minus garfield? how long has it been going?
20:15:12 <elliott> quintopia: as long as mezzacotta
20:16:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: "Admin note: This submission was so timely and appropriate, I made a special exception and inserted it into the queue in place of another strip. (This is a *very* rare exception - it takes a lot of work to mess with the buffer queue.)" <-- on which one?
20:17:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=513
20:26:00 <elliott> cpressey: OK, seriously, I'm sick to death of Python. Convince me that Lua is awesome.
20:27:31 <quintopia> it's one of a small handful of major projects published under the X11 license?
20:28:38 <elliott> quintopia: For one, X.org!
20:29:07 <elliott> (Although none of the top of my head.)
20:31:00 <quintopia> elliott: surprisingly few worthy of mention tho. compared to GPL.
20:31:11 <fizzie> http://freshmeat.net/tags/mitx-consortium-license "1073 projects tagged 'MIT/X'" -- but of course "major".
20:32:12 <elliott> quintopia: Well, y'know, I count a lot of MIT software as worthy of mention.
20:32:18 <elliott> And a lot fewer pieces of GPL software than most people.
20:32:37 <elliott> fizzie: Freshmeat is oddly patchworky at times.
20:32:51 <Gregor> I just made the collision detection really spanky :)
20:32:55 <elliott> Also, MIT == ISC/BSD2/BSD3 in all countries that matter at all :P
20:33:00 <elliott> Gregor: Oh yeah... so... spanky...
20:33:26 <Gregor> Believe me, it's spanky :)
20:33:43 <Gregor> Individual lines are separate platforms.
20:33:56 <Gregor> So there's none of this "I'm standing on the magical edge of a box with text below me somewhere"
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20:35:00 <Gregor> It's also slower, but I think it's still fully usable.
20:35:32 <elliott> Gregor: In the platform edition (let's call it that), you could do that initial loop in C++.
20:35:38 <elliott> Wait, would you even need that loop with a getElementsByRect?
20:36:00 <quintopia> Gregor: so falling damage is up next?
20:36:17 <Gregor> quintopia: The TODO list is not (necessarily) in priority order ;)
20:36:20 <elliott> Falling damage might suck.
20:36:24 <elliott> e.g. on looong pages with a lot of text.
20:36:28 <elliott> It's useful to fall down the side.
20:36:31 <elliott> Maybe just cap it at a maximum.
20:37:36 <elliott> I just wish there was an element to complete sequence "Python, Ruby, Perl".
20:37:56 <elliott> Something like Python but with proper lambdas and way less anal like Perl, except without Perl's complete and utter insanity and sigils.
20:37:59 <elliott> You know, a scripting language.
20:38:06 <quintopia> elliott: nope, fall too far = death
20:38:14 <quintopia> this is why there will be a balloon...
20:38:25 <elliott> quintopia: Dude, your designing of Gregor's game for him is kinda creepy :P
20:38:46 <Gregor> I don't want to design it :P
20:39:00 <elliott> Gregor: I think it should have sex robots in it that make you explode.
20:39:03 <elliott> Also they shake the browser window.
20:39:16 <Gregor> Luckily I'm a filter :P
20:40:17 <Gregor> Basically I have a strange, morbid enjoyment of watching avatar-me die.
20:40:29 <elliott> Funny, I have a strange, morbid enjoyment of watching you die.
20:43:54 <Ilari> Dealing with strings in Lua is annoying...
20:44:16 <Ilari> And also integer division is annoying.
20:44:49 <elliott> Ilari: The floats-only thing totally freaks me out, but what's wrong with its string handling?
20:46:09 <Ilari> The integer division wouldn't be so bad if there was operator that did integer division (even if it was really just division followed by floor).
20:46:41 <Ilari> No proper regexps for instance...
20:49:18 <elliott> Ilari: Gotta be a binding for PCRE or something?
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21:19:45 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU ADDRESS ME LIKE THAT
21:21:40 <oerjan> clearly a typo. pesky keyboard.
21:22:43 <oerjan> i certainly do not have a paranoid split personality bent on world domination AT ALL
21:22:57 <oerjan> what a ridiculous thought
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21:27:27 <webquint> so it seems google has forgotten what shape a G has
21:27:36 <webquint> G looks nothing like dizzy gillespie
21:29:40 * oerjan sees nothing, not even when selecting google in english
21:30:08 <oerjan> not that this is unheard of
21:30:44 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.google.co.uk/logos/2010/gillespie10-instant.gif
21:31:39 * oerjan sees the top of the G behind gillespie
21:34:49 <fizzie> oerjan: I see he has a horn growing out of his head. He should get that looked at.
21:34:52 <webquint> which combined with the rest looks more like an ø
21:35:41 <oerjan> an øoogle once bit my sister
21:39:09 <olsner> that's not even a word!
21:40:32 <webquint> second-price actions are cool, agreed?
21:40:47 <Vorpal> gah at ungoogable software names.
21:42:58 <elliott> [[8====D "Surprise!", also represents a penis.]]
21:43:28 <elliott> cpressey: <elliott> cpressey: OK, seriously, I'm sick to death of Python. Convince me that Lua is awesome.
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21:43:39 <elliott> <elliott> I just wish there was an element to complete sequence "Python, Ruby, Perl".
21:43:39 <elliott> <elliott> Something like Python but with proper lambdas and way less anal like Perl, except without Perl's complete and utter insanity and sigils.
21:44:22 <cpressey> elliott: er... ok... well every time you quote someone using [[these things]], as you often do, you're using Lua quote syntax! OK, terrible argument.
21:44:26 <oerjan> but but but pythons are not venomous
21:44:29 <webquint> elliott: does this mean you'll never finish vagrant?
21:44:40 <elliott> cpressey: wait is that the string syntax?
21:44:48 <elliott> webquint: it's already platonically perfect!
21:44:56 <elliott> cpressey: indeed (multi-line) also comments, heh
21:45:14 <cpressey> elliott: it does have proper lambdas, and proper... something else. [[]] is the "omg all this" string syntax. (better than """ """ imo)
21:45:26 <cpressey> --[[ omg all this comment ]]--
21:45:32 <elliott> function(x) return x+1 end
21:45:48 <elliott> even C++0x's lambdas are shorter
21:45:57 <cpressey> i speak english, i read english, i write english, i have no problem with code in english
21:46:24 <elliott> cpressey: you don't see an argument against verbosity?
21:46:27 <cpressey> i have no problem with verbose
21:46:29 <elliott> it's like reading java in a way
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21:46:34 * webquint likes smalltalk closures/lambdas best
21:46:39 <elliott> when i stare at lua code, all the huge keywords stand out
21:46:45 <elliott> and i can't see the actual functionality as well
21:46:49 <elliott> that's my experience at least...
21:47:03 <elliott> cpressey: but uh the lack of integers bothers me way more :p
21:47:10 <olsner> I think lua is more sensible than python, but not significantly better... and lua's syntax is different from everything and there's almost no stdlib at all in lua
21:47:30 <cpressey> conflating arrays and dicts in tables is not cool, i agree
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21:48:36 <cpressey> you can rebuild lua so you ONLY get integers -- i kind of prefer that :>
21:48:53 <cpressey> dicts as objects i don't mind nearly as much
21:48:57 <elliott> cpressey: oh great, code configuration by process of recompiling the interpreter
21:49:37 <elliott> i swear i want to like lua.
21:50:10 <cpressey> well, i'm not saying i like lua, just that, it doesn't exceed my annoy threshold
21:50:25 <cpressey> for its size, it's hard to beat
21:50:42 <elliott> cpressey: you don't mind verbosity but mention size? :)
21:50:50 <cpressey> javascript doesn't exceed my annoy threshold either, really
21:51:36 <elliott> <cpressey> javascript doesn't exceed my annoy threshold either, really
21:51:39 <elliott> ...have you ever used javascript
21:52:53 <Vorpal> --enable-broken-cxx=no Force configure to accept the compiler,
21:52:53 <Vorpal> even if it thinks that it is broken.
21:53:15 <Gregor> elliott: I've used the living FUCK out of JS, and it doesn't even approach my annoy threshold.
21:53:26 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, and I don't listen to your opinions on languages :P
21:54:32 <webquint> elliott: whose opinion do you listen to on anything?
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22:00:09 <Vorpal> webquint, whoever agrees with his preconceptions...
22:01:18 <webquint> the mystery trains with predetermined destinations...
22:06:55 <cpressey> the most annoying thing about JS is that (effectively) I have to run it in a web browser
22:08:03 <olsner> all the good JS implementations have standalone interpreters afaik
22:08:38 <cpressey> oh, the other thing lua has proper is, if you are going to conflate objects and dictionaries, bloody well just conflate them -- I'm looking at Python's division between object attributes and dict entries here
22:08:54 <elliott> olsner: with ~no libraries
22:09:31 <olsner> elliott: yep, same as lua :)
22:10:55 <elliott> cpressey: I just want (python - anal - weird Gudioness + additional flexibility a la Ruby or Perl (without their insanity) + nicer object system)
22:11:52 <elliott> cpressey: well... you could go about it almost patchwork
22:12:08 <elliott> cpressey: i mean ruby is *surprisingly* close, but (1) THE FUCKING "COMMUNITY" and (2) it has a few really, really weird parts that just destroy it
22:12:44 <cpressey> elliott: i feel that way mostly about it too. actually i know not so much about the community, but, yes, from what i do know, probably.
22:12:45 <elliott> cpressey: so... take Python, get rid of the indentation-based syntax (I don't inherently hate it but it contributes a lot to the anality). lax up function calls a bit, maybe make the parens optional
22:13:05 <elliott> add one or two loop constructs, a bit of flexibility, y'know?
22:13:09 <elliott> make the object system less crazy
22:13:12 <elliott> GIVE IT PROPER FUCKING LAMBDAS
22:13:37 <elliott> accordingly: eliminate statement/expression distinction
22:13:45 <cpressey> give it block frickin structure at any rate
22:13:48 <elliott> maybe replace some control structures with lambdas a la ruby
22:14:06 <elliott> (or whatever lambda syntax you use)
22:14:13 <elliott> cpressey: and, yes, give it sane scoping rules.
22:14:29 <cpressey> why not just take out the garbage parts of ruby? what are they in your opinion?
22:14:30 <elliott> ^^ that is a *really* short change set for an *entire language*
22:14:40 <elliott> cpressey: It's... hard to specify.
22:14:49 <cpressey> the perl legacy, i'd start with
22:15:00 <elliott> cpressey: One of them is: Those little lambdas -- "y.each {|x| ...}", equivalently "y.each do |x| ... end" (this equivalence is *great*) -- they're not actually lambdas.
22:15:04 <cpressey> i like /^foo/ as a literal regexp but it ends there
22:15:05 <elliott> Every function call has zero or one "blocks" attached.
22:15:12 <elliott> You can't pass these as arguments.
22:15:19 <elliott> equivalently, s/proc/lambda/
22:15:25 <elliott> there *is* some shorthand for proper lambdas now
22:15:29 <cpressey> yeah, the pseudo-functional-ness of ruby is awful
22:16:11 <elliott> cpressey: -> x,y,z {x+y+z}
22:16:16 <elliott> also you have to call it as
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22:16:26 <elliott> since functions/variables aren't the same for various complex reasons
22:16:30 <elliott> ("f" is a zero-argument function call)
22:16:46 <olsner> eugh, lambdas aren't functions?
22:17:50 <elliott> whereas, if sort! was a lambda there
22:17:53 <elliott> array.sort! would be a reference to it
22:18:18 <elliott> olsner: so basically they're separate concepts.
22:18:29 <elliott> olsner: would you have just referring to a lambda by name call it?!
22:18:43 <elliott> WHOOPS F GOT EXECUTED THERE
22:19:48 <olsner> coming from haskell, it's so natural that f would be IO () or something, and would have to be interpreted to have its effects performed
22:20:29 <elliott> olsner: yeah, uh, not a functional language
22:21:12 <elliott> olsner: anyway ruby isn't all that bad. and i gather the japanese ruby community, from experience and second-hand, is *really* nice
22:21:16 <elliott> but the western ruby community
22:21:44 <olsner> they are driving you to create something better!
22:21:59 <elliott> just don't. shut up. i dealt with those guys for like a year
22:22:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:22:58 <elliott> olsner: and of course *because* of the horrible western community,
22:23:04 <elliott> ruby is regularly mocked to death on all corners of the internet
22:23:11 <elliott> and also because of it, it attracts more of the same type of people.
22:23:45 <elliott> olsner: and... why the lucky stiff used to moderate it. a lot.
22:23:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:24:54 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:25:00 <elliott> cpressey: what was the last thing you saw?
22:25:03 -!- nooga has joined.
22:25:32 <cpressey> something about space cows and space milk and space cheese
22:25:38 <cpressey> although this probably does not help you
22:25:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:25:42 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: -> x,y,z {x+y+z}
22:26:13 <cpressey> that's... i don't think i like it
22:26:45 <cpressey> { x,y: x+y } i like as a lambda
22:26:56 <elliott> cpressey: lemme pastie what you missed
22:27:39 <elliott> pastie is fucking up stuff
22:27:47 <elliott> cpressey: http://sprunge.us/PeWh
22:30:26 <cpressey> ! could totally be a postfix operator that calls the lambda HAHA
22:30:48 <elliott> .() is the postscript operator!
22:30:53 <cpressey> it's part of the name, isn't it?
22:31:01 <cpressey> oh yes there is a punctuation theme here
22:31:06 <elliott> but yeah, ! is just valid at the end of names
22:31:51 <elliott> cpressey: it's... i actually recommend you try it sometime. compared to python, i mean...
22:32:06 <elliott> it is not as bad as it sounds. just NEVER EVER look at ANY community for it if it's not in japanese.
22:32:28 <elliott> in fact {learn japanese; use ruby} is probably way easier and nicer than {use python} if you have the patience :)
22:32:55 <elliott> cpressey: here's the interface of the blind gods: http://edbrowse.sourceforge.net/
22:32:57 <cpressey> i think i got bored with it and stopped
22:33:13 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.eklhad.net/edbrowse/usersguide.html#guide take a look at these shortcuts
22:33:24 <elliott> it is totally the best interface for blind people i'd say
22:33:57 <elliott> "You will never be faster than your sighted colleague when traveling through unfamiliar territory, no matter what system you use."
22:34:12 <elliott> cpressey: it's like this guy used ed as an editor and he was like
22:34:17 <elliott> awesome this is totally how i want to work
22:34:30 <elliott> you know... i wish i could g/re/p my web pages
22:34:40 <elliott> would be nice if i could fill in forms...
22:34:49 <elliott> cpressey: oh file manager too
22:35:09 <elliott> cpressey: of course *ideally* it'd be, like, a bunch of programs
22:35:16 <elliott> and the main ed thing would just be a "shell" using ed commands
22:35:21 <elliott> even i wouldn't want to code *that* on unix
22:35:57 <elliott> "Now sessions 2 3 and 4 are the subpages about plains trains and automobiels respectively. You can fill out forms or follow hyperlinks in any of them, or stay in session 1 and do something else."
22:36:11 <elliott> "If you are trying to listen to a speech synthesizer, the last thing you need is background music. Instead of playing the song, I make it available to you through a hyperlink."
22:36:37 <elliott> cpressey: ha it has macros
22:36:46 <elliott> cpressey: this guy has managed to turn ed into emacs and *actually deemphasise* the editor part
22:37:21 <elliott> cpressey: oh yeah and he wrote his own javascript compiler and engine to use with the web browser.
22:37:31 <elliott> he's changed it to a mozilla one now, but STILL HOW HARDCORE IS THAT
22:38:53 <elliott> i am now in awe at how comprehensive this thing's functionality is
22:39:23 <elliott> cpressey: it has database functionality :D
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22:40:54 <elliott> cpressey: gahaha, he wrote his own speech system too
22:40:59 <elliott> "Installation of the Jupiter speech package proceeds in two steps. First the Linux kernel is patched, so that it can accept adaptive modules. These modules intercept keyboard input and console output and modify it in some way, to make the computer more accessible. For instance, an adapter for the blind might divert console output into a speech synthesizer. Jupiter is such an adapter. This package includes the patch that "prepares" the Linux
22:41:00 <elliott> kernel for adaptive modules, and the Jupiter module itself, which you load via insmod or modprobe."
22:43:05 <elliott> cpressey: and he has an adopted kid with severe ADHD! question: where does his time come from?
22:52:04 <cpressey> btw, I totally have an iMac now.
22:56:39 -!- webquint has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:59:38 <Sgeo> The OSX store doesn't allow system apps?
23:00:01 <Sgeo> That's pretty much the sort of app that I'd actually _appreciate_ careful monitoring of
23:00:28 -!- augur has joined.
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23:07:57 <cpressey> this keyboard is made of lead and chiclets
23:10:19 <Gregor> http://notalwaysright.com/try-explaining-that-to-your-insurance-agent/7819 ... yes.
23:19:04 <olsner> eugh, "deja vu all over again"
23:21:22 <cpressey> it has a key labelled "return"
23:21:45 <cpressey> because it totally want to return the texted I just typed in
23:22:25 <cpressey> (I KNOW WHY IT'S CALLED THAT. DO NOT START.)
23:23:52 <elliott> cpressey: i wouldn't start :P
23:26:26 <cpressey> I just like the irony of a company that prides itself on usability * key labelled with an obsolete unrelated function.
23:27:55 -!- sshc has joined.
23:27:55 <elliott> cpressey: is that... meaning globbing?
23:28:02 <elliott> OH LOOK new macbook air, i wonder how much it sucks
23:28:22 <cpressey> elliott: it means "too lazy to type this part; infer". alternately, it's a product of some kind
23:29:35 <elliott> ok this... actually... the new macbook air looks kinda nice.
23:29:59 <elliott> wait, this marks Apple moving into the netbook industry
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23:31:09 <oerjan> ...there was a reddit picture about that yesterday
23:31:39 <elliott> or just poor, drooling people.
23:35:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:36:37 <cpressey> in black clothes with slim cigarettes
23:36:53 <cpressey> and largish, purple-tinted glasses
23:37:55 <elliott> theory: cpressey works for Microsoft
23:39:03 * Sgeo is tempted to try Opera
23:39:06 <Sgeo> Don't know why
23:39:37 <cpressey> elliott: so M$FT got me a mac so I could...
23:39:39 <Sgeo> Well, actually, I do know why
23:40:17 <Sgeo> Maybe Opera will deal with Reddit nicely
23:41:47 <elliott> cpressey: i hate... software
23:41:50 <Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?
23:42:08 <elliott> <Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?
23:42:32 <Sgeo> I hate programming. Therefore, I will make my own programming language.
23:42:52 <Sgeo> That wasn't an analogy
23:43:00 <Sgeo> That was a completely disconnected thought
23:43:08 * Sgeo was thinking about PHP
23:44:43 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:45:30 <elliott> cpressey: whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?
23:47:17 <Sgeo> Opera actually works with my school's website!
23:47:53 <Sgeo> Maximized Opera fails at that rule about clicky things near the top of the screen should go all the way
23:51:18 <Sgeo> Now, how do I open new tabs
23:52:50 <elliott> cpressey: theory: maybe i should make my OWN SCRIPTING LANGno
23:53:01 <cpressey> oerjan: you have that comic strip up there in norway?
23:53:08 <olsner> Sgeo: ctrl-t as every other browser with tabs?
23:53:23 <Sgeo> I meant a link in a new ab
23:53:30 <cpressey> elliott: it would be the only one that isn't broken (except where it is)
23:53:33 <oerjan> well the library has it
23:54:16 <elliott> <cpressey> oerjan: you have that comic strip up there in norway?
23:54:16 <cpressey> i had not actually seen it until being in contact with americans
23:54:19 <oerjan> also here http://www.start.no/tegneserier/
23:55:03 <cpressey> not exactly a great comic strip, but alright sometimes
23:55:26 <cpressey> um... the one on that page sucks
23:55:42 <elliott> cpressey: have you ever read the Perry Bible Fellowship
23:55:49 <elliott> and are you too curmudgeonly to enjoy it or not
23:56:20 <cpressey> elliott: um... i don't *think* so...
23:56:27 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.pbfcomics.com/
23:56:34 <elliott> pick one. click. laugh. failing that, start from step one.
23:57:01 <cpressey> confused by web page. oh. those are links. ok...
23:57:54 <Sgeo> Opera works nicely with Reddit
23:57:58 <Sgeo> And with my school's website
23:58:38 <elliott> cpressey: the ones near the bottom aren't so good
23:59:40 <elliott> there's quite a few in that... "continuity" if you can call it that
23:59:44 <elliott> pretty sure all of them have died at least once