00:00:28 <elliott> cpressey: this one was removed from the website and replaced by the current one: http://laurenoutloud.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/PBF247-Catch_Phrase.jpg
00:00:36 <elliott> (it was the last comic before a long hiatus and then Transmission got posted)
00:01:16 <cpressey> wait, so the ones at the top are more recent?
00:01:34 <elliott> i never had a problem with the design :D
00:02:18 <elliott> ha i forgot this one http://www.pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF186-Guntron_Alliance_Force.jpg
00:08:55 <pikhq> elliott: Only a bit over an hour until I've got Elephant's Dream in 1080p!
00:09:05 <elliott> pikhq: Then your life will be COMPLETE
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00:09:18 <pikhq> elliott: No, then I'll have to encode this monster.
00:09:22 <elliott> pikhq: Then your life will be COMPLETE
00:09:35 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, I'm sure you could do better than just telling x264 not to do anything lossy...
00:09:50 <elliott> pikhq: I suggest you make ll264, a fork of x264 for losslessness! YAAAAAAAAAAAYno
00:10:00 <elliott> (totally an important correction)
00:10:10 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, it's a high-quality implementation of h264's Lossless profile.
00:10:35 <elliott> I'm sure the Lossless profile wasn't one of the most important parts of the H.264 spec :P
00:10:44 <elliott> pikhq: Also, know that animation, even 3D, is easier to encode.
00:10:59 <elliott> pikhq: Lossless HD live-action I... don't see happening right now.
00:11:05 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and you still need a lot of disk for this stuff, of course :P
00:11:10 <pikhq> It's actually very simple to do *very well* with a high-quality format.
00:11:48 <pikhq> You see, the main thing they have to do to make it into a lossless format is turn off the quantisation after the DCT.
00:12:08 <pikhq> Whiich means that most of the magic stuff that it does to get good quality video at a low bitrate is still working.
00:14:33 <pikhq> Not I; I use a local DNS server.
00:14:40 <elliott> <pikhq> Not I; I use a local DNS server.
00:14:44 <elliott> hopefully for reasons other than speed...
00:14:56 <elliott> (it'll end up slower on average, due to the insane infrastructure and caching your ISP will have)
00:15:03 <pikhq> elliott: The ISP DNS server sucks ass.
00:15:19 <elliott> but... you are in america, yes?
00:15:33 <elliott> quintopia: try 4.4.4.1, 4.4.4.2
00:15:37 <elliott> that's verizon's or... someone's but
00:15:40 <elliott> they're meant to be pretty good
00:15:43 <elliott> avoid opendns like the plague
00:15:50 <elliott> it has so much shit turned on by default and turning it off is a pain and just no.
00:16:13 <pikhq> And it honest-to-god redirects you to an ISP site if the domain name doesn't exist.
00:16:29 <pikhq> Which is solidly BULLSHIT.
00:17:14 <pikhq> So, yeah; I've got a caching recursive DNS server on localhost.
00:18:11 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, unbound.
00:18:25 <elliott> pikhq: Use djbdns or djb will eat your soul.
00:19:44 <pikhq> elliott: Joke's on him. I long ago sold it off to a LLC that manages it for me.
00:20:23 * Sgeo rather likes Opera except for one or two annoyances
00:20:25 <elliott> pikhq: Recursive resolver.
00:20:29 <elliott> pikhq: He will find your LLC and hunt it down.
00:20:55 <elliott> Haha oh wow, Grave of the Fireflies was initially shown in a double feature with *My Neighbour Totoro*.
00:21:00 <elliott> Can you imagine a more awful juxtaposition?
00:21:08 <elliott> Tellytubbies with a snuff film?
00:21:45 <pikhq> elliott: Well, the people who wanted Grave of the Fireflies would probably enjoy Tonari no Totoro.
00:22:03 <pikhq> elliott: Given that Studio Ghibli is pretty universally beloved. :)
00:22:10 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but *double feature*.
00:22:12 <Sgeo> Opera handles SL Marketplace's nuttiness nicely
00:22:22 <quintopia> can someone tell me how to make clicking links happen with left mouse button in urxvt? i'm not skilled with the magic of .xdefaults and such
00:22:27 <pikhq> Speaking of, I still need to see Tonari no Totoro.
00:22:30 <elliott> "Oh god, I... *cry*. ...what the fuck what is this animal ... thing"
00:22:44 <elliott> "Hahaha this is nice I like this okay it is over now, catbus! ...;_;"
00:23:22 <elliott> quintopia: FWIW, an Rxvt resource just looks like this:
00:23:50 <elliott> quintopia: grepping http://linux.die.net/man/1/urxvt i can't find anything
00:24:08 <quintopia> elliott: thanks i got help from someone else
00:24:08 <elliott> pikhq: It's good, although that's ... obvious.
00:24:15 <elliott> quintopia: For the record, how is it done?
00:24:21 <pikhq> ... Wait, the two films came out at the same time and it was a really early set of films for them?
00:24:30 <pikhq> Okay, I'm not sure what they were thinking.
00:24:47 <pikhq> It's not like they were the Japanese Disney yet!
00:24:58 <pikhq> elliott: 3rd and 4th films of theirs.
00:25:26 <Sgeo> At this point I'm in love with Opera
00:25:27 <quintopia> elliott: change the matcher.button var in .Xdefaults
00:25:33 <Sgeo> It's search engine handling is NICE
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00:33:47 <oerjan> oh duh there it is http://i.imgur.com/51f9p.jpg
00:34:17 <oerjan> somehow i didn't manage to find it again though it still no. 2 on r/technology
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00:46:12 <elliott> catseye is now speaking frmo netbsd
00:47:04 <catseye> the filesystem is made of rubies and emeralds!
00:47:42 <catseye> no, that could actually be true(ish)
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00:50:46 <elliott> catseye: eh, what's with them.
00:51:04 <catseye> they uh are uh needed for things that go in them.
00:51:25 <catseye> i find myself saying "i hate computers" a lot
00:52:14 <pikhq> They are fundamentally hateable.
00:52:22 <pikhq> Especially the morons who write their software.
00:53:02 <Sgeo> Are the TrueCrypt defaults sensible?
00:53:16 <elliott> pikhq: so uh what is a language
00:54:09 <pikhq> elliott: Whaddya mean, "what is a language"?
00:54:20 <elliott> pikhq: a language of goodness for scripting
00:54:25 <elliott> a la ruby python perl but less shit
00:54:50 <pikhq> Sorry, it's all pretty shitty.
00:54:58 <pikhq> Have you considered shell?
00:55:19 <elliott> pikhq: ALSO NOT AN OPTION not answering will result in being shot
00:55:28 <Sgeo> TrueCrypt doesn't want me continuing unless I make a rescue disk
00:55:31 <pikhq> elliott: KittenScript.
00:55:44 <elliott> pikhq: implication of additional work replied.
00:55:54 <elliott> ...why am i even trying to tell Sgeo anything he won't listen
00:56:03 <elliott> pikhq: i, yes, well, i did consider it
00:56:04 <Sgeo> elliott, better choices?
00:56:19 <Sgeo> All I want to do is encrypt my HD
00:56:20 <elliott> pikhq: (1) one-based indexing, (2) incredibly anaemic stdlib,
00:56:32 <elliott> pikhq: (3) arrays are tables are objects,
00:56:39 <Sgeo> Also, what, precisely, is wrong wth TrueCrypt?
00:56:42 <elliott> pikhq: (4) "function(x) return x+1 end" is a bit verbose.
00:56:46 <elliott> Sgeo: truecrypt is developed in a very shady manner.
00:57:12 <elliott> Sgeo: it is open source, but there is no repository, no real discussion of any development. just a tarball getting put up every now and then,
00:57:16 <elliott> it is not clear at all who develops it,
00:57:25 <elliott> afaik nobody regularly reviews the code
00:57:46 <elliott> The TrueCrypt developers use the aliases "ennead" and "syncon", but later replaced all references to these aliases on their website with "The TrueCrypt Foundation" in 2010[36]
00:57:47 <elliott> The domain name "truecrypt.org" was originally registered to a false address ("NAVAS Station, ANTARCTICA")[37][38], and was later concealed behind a Network Solutions private registration.[39]
00:57:57 <elliott> Sgeo: i wouldn't trust it. at all.
00:58:06 <pikhq> elliott: That's... Pretty shady.
00:58:13 <pikhq> elliott: At that point why not make it a Tor site?
00:58:31 <pikhq> (which would be, amazingly, *more legitimate*)
00:59:07 <elliott> my encryption hits me so hard!
00:59:40 <elliott> Sgeo: try, for instance, dm-crypt.
00:59:53 <elliott> oh, truecrypt also has its own license
00:59:58 <elliott> http://www.truecrypt.org/legal/license
01:00:16 <Sgeo> dm-crypt appears to be a Linux thing
01:00:25 <elliott> Sgeo: you trust Windows with your sensitive information?
01:00:39 <elliott> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitLocker_Drive_Encryption
01:01:06 <elliott> Sgeo: btw, ubuntu lets you specify to encrypt your home directory with one click in the installer.
01:01:30 <elliott> yes. now go and install it. now. over the windows partition.
01:04:07 <catseye> i've never actually touched the stuff
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01:04:50 <Sgeo> Why are all the Chrome skins for Opera breaking the menu button?
01:05:11 <Sgeo> Except the one that leaves the title bar intact *eyeroll*
01:07:00 <elliott> Sgeo: you're trying to *dress a browser up* to specifically *look like another browser*?
01:07:03 <elliott> i hate you i hate you i hate you
01:07:25 <Sgeo> I prefer Chrome's looks, but Opera works better for me
01:09:27 <Sgeo> Actually, "netbook skin" is very nice
01:09:37 <Sgeo> It solves the main issue I was having with the default skin
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01:27:41 <pikhq> Dammit I'm going to have the Chocobo Theme stuck in my head now.
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02:00:31 <catseye> Well, but, if it works, it works -- whatever netcat comes with Cygwin doesn't.
02:04:39 -!- SgeOpera has joined.
02:04:45 <SgeOpera> It's been a while since I've used Opera's IRC client
02:04:55 <SgeOpera> There's probably a good reason for that :/
02:05:48 -!- SgeOpera has left (?).
02:14:40 <catseye> Cuz I so totally need to run a bot from under Windows, you see.
02:14:47 <catseye> Because that's so totally advisable.
02:15:28 <catseye> eeerrm yeah, GNU Netcat does not build on cygwin, at least not without hacking & I am lazy.
02:16:03 * catseye wonders if there are netcats written in scripting languages
02:16:39 <catseye> http://4thmouse.com/index.php/2008/02/22/netcat-clone-in-three-languages-part-ii-python/
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02:16:56 <catseye> apparently there are one-offs, if not official such things
02:18:00 <Gregor> The worst part about being in ##javascript is that there's no distinguishing between complete imbeciles and good programmers who just have questions.
02:18:01 <catseye> does not support running a program on the socket. ok, whatever
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02:18:48 <Gregor> Usually not on the first question anyway. If you respond, then go "this idiot is a waste of my time", you will have already shown your presence :P
02:19:44 <zzo38> Now I received the Millenium Box Set. Volume B does not seem up to date (it is version 3.14159 but the executable I have on my computer is version 3.1415926). But there is something else that I don't have on my computer: there is a footnote after every two pages listing the identifiers used there and section numbers, and what kind of variable/macro/procedure/number.
02:21:42 <catseye> I infer from the version number that this is something about TeX
02:22:09 <Sgeo> I thought that approximated e. Or was that something else?
02:22:27 <catseye> zzo38: Perhaps 3.14159 was the version it was at, in 2000.
02:22:32 <Sgeo> Actually, I have no clue which one TeX approximates
02:22:43 <catseye> Or 2001, if you are a Timekeeping Purist
02:22:57 <Sgeo> Just that Knuth did versioning of something to some transcendental in the set {e, pi}
02:23:23 <zzo38> Do you know what the differences are? If I know what they are, perhaps I can write on the changes by pencil.
02:23:31 <catseye> Also, Cygwin's Python's time.dll seems to be broken
02:23:41 <zzo38> TeX uses versioning approaching pi and METAFONT uses version numbers approaching e.
02:24:29 <catseye> zzo38: I don't suppose you've written your own netcat and tested it on Cygwin.
02:24:33 <Sgeo> Besides pi and e, what important transcendentals are there?
02:25:54 <zzo38> catseye: You are correct I have not done so
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02:28:52 <catseye> Sigh. Writing... own... netcat...
02:29:27 <catseye> (well, stealing a good chunk of it from that blog post)
02:30:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Powers of e?
02:30:43 <Sgeo> Particular powers?
02:31:37 <pikhq> sin(a) and cos(a) for algebraic non-zero numbers?
02:34:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelfond%E2%80%93Schneider_theorem and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindemann%E2%80%93Weierstrass_theorem
02:41:02 <Sgeo> αβ = exp(β log α)
02:41:31 <pikhq> let exp x = 10 * x in
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02:44:41 <zzo38> The copyright page says "Incorporates the final corrections made in 1995, and a few dozen mode." but what are they? "Version 3.141592 fixed \xleaders, glueset, weird alignments (December 2002)." "Version 3.1415926 was a general cleanup with minor fixes (February 2008).
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02:45:18 <zzo38> What stuff was changed, exactly?
02:46:05 <catseye> You get transcendental digits. You do not get detailed release notes.
02:47:19 <zzo38> I found the errata file.
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02:49:26 <catseye> Good grief. Python's time.dll error shows up in my netcat too. Even though it doesn't call any time functions (maybe it does indirectly through the socket functions, though that'd still be a bit weird.)
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03:49:16 <catseye> Downgraded Python to make it work. Also I now suspect nc -e doesn't work because cygwin doesn't implement buffering properly or something; I had to set my netcat-in-py to completely unbuffered for it to connect
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03:52:33 <catseye> you don't see your own msgs to the channel, do you
03:52:50 <webquint> @tell catseye what is supposed to happen
03:53:16 <catseye> webquint: just testing. it's a stupid note-taking bot.
03:53:17 <storkbot> catseye: webquint told me to tell you: what is supposed to happen
03:53:37 <catseye> wanted to see if it would pass along a message to itself
03:53:58 <catseye> oh, also it is running on Windows Vista, because that is so totally advisable.
03:54:24 <webquint> so it's storkbot because it "carries messages to people"?
03:54:50 <catseye> the reason for the "stork" moniker are... obscure. originally it didn't do this function at all...
03:55:27 <webquint> well, what makes in-channel message delivery better than memoserv/PM?
03:55:55 <catseye> I wasn't aware of memoserv :)
03:56:38 <catseye> hm, i suppose one advantage would be that this works with any nick, not just registered nicks
03:56:52 <catseye> i was just copying lambdabot's functionality
03:59:48 <catseye> (The bot's full name is "mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot", but that's too long for a nick on this system.)
04:02:58 <Gregor> For Facebook, that's probably pretty good :P
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04:04:18 <pikhq> The US porn industry is larger than the US film industry.
04:04:53 <pikhq> $8.65 billion a year vs. $8.59 billion a year in gross profit.
04:05:58 <oerjan> i am surprised that you find that surprising.
04:07:14 <pikhq> Oh, wait, I still have this idea that the US film industry is large.
04:07:25 <pikhq> Because it has large *mindshare*...
04:07:51 <pikhq> When in fact the toothpick industry is larger. Toothpicks!
04:08:58 <catseye> lots of magazines with toothpicks on the cover
04:09:29 <oerjan> well, people who try to look like toothpicks, anyhow
04:09:37 <pikhq> catseye: Those are supposed to be people.
04:09:50 <zzo38> There, I think I got all of the errata of TeX: The Program.
04:09:58 <webquint> i can't decide who executed that joke best
04:09:59 <zzo38> The errata file is http://www.tex.ac.uk/CTAN/systems/knuth/dist/errata/errata.tex
04:10:39 * oerjan stabs webquint with a toothpick ---
04:11:45 <zzo38> There is just one really long piece of errata which I have decided not to copy out, instead printing a copy of that page from my computer and inserting it into the book.
04:11:46 <oerjan> meanwhile other people look like balloons. it might be a good idea to keep them apart.
04:12:32 <webquint> but wheeeeeeere, where do they make ballooooons?
04:12:46 <oerjan> in the helium mines of course
04:13:51 * oerjan suddenly suspects a reference
04:14:03 <webquint> have you seen the ignite presentation about helium?
04:14:09 <webquint> i thought it was damned interesting?
04:14:27 <oerjan> YOU CANNOT IGNITE HELIUM, STUPID
04:14:56 <oerjan> well except fusion, but that's not yet practical.
04:15:11 <webquint> i guess i should take that as a no
04:15:49 <webquint> this is the same guy that tells all the bad physics jokes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2-_5y_Vvw
04:17:32 <catseye> i was srsly not thinking about toothpick people when i said that, only the surrealism of actual toothpicks on the cover of any magazine (aside from Toothpick Fancier Magazine.) so oerjan should get credit for that.
04:17:41 <pikhq> oerjan: No, but you can fise it.
04:18:06 <oerjan> pikhq: that's going to take a _lot_ of energy
04:18:23 <pikhq> No, no, it's going to *make* a lot of energy.
04:18:39 <webquint> catseye: then i'll give it pikhq for being slightly more subtle
04:18:59 <oerjan> sheesh, fission does not release energy for elements < iron, pikhq
04:19:05 <pikhq> And by "energy" I mean "entropy".
04:19:30 <zzo38> I will read the entire book first before writing C-TeX, and then I can continue refering to the book while writing the program (I might insert TeX comments or @q ... @> comments to indicate which part of the book I refer to; this information is mostly only for myself).
04:19:48 <zzo38> If I make a book of this program and of my various other TeX stuff I have done, I should call the book "How To Make This Book".
04:22:33 <zzo38> Is this a good title?
04:23:11 <webquint> oerjan: so you already knew that all knew supplies of helium on earth basically come from uranium decay products getting trapped in natural gas deposits?
04:23:36 <zzo38> I can include QR codes of the compressed files so that you can publish a copy of the book from your own computer too.
04:26:36 <oerjan> although the "helium mines" _was_ a joke
04:31:09 <webquint> zzo38: Does ISO18004 allow QR codes big enough to encode themselves and several others? how many pages of the book do you think a single QR code could encode at a maximum?
04:31:34 <pikhq> webquint: For that comment we'll send you to the helium mines, boy!
04:32:19 <webquint> pikhq: were you just waiting to say that to the next person who talked?
04:33:39 <webquint> although, if the standard allows them to be that big, i think "a QR code matching a program which outputs that QR code" would be an interesting exercise.
04:34:09 <Sgeo> May I quote you?
04:34:28 <Sgeo> I thought this was #android
04:34:42 <Sgeo> Was about to paste it into #esoteric
04:36:01 <zzo38> webquint: The files can be compressed using gzip or whatever, and only the source files are needed (such as the ".w" files, and the ".tex" files which were not generated from the ".w", and a few others), and multiple QR codes can be used if necessary, which sequence numbers too if necessary.
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04:38:35 <webquint> zzo38: it seems like it would take a lot of them to encode the compress sources that generate the QR codes themselves
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04:38:57 <zzo38> (The intention however, is still that once you scan and uncompress and compile, you will have everything you need to make the book, all of the components involved being described in the book.)
04:41:05 <zzo38> Actually, sorry, that isn't true; it won't be necessary to describe the components I did not write (such as the Computer Modern fonts). It would still seem to be a good idea if the Computer Modern fonts can be downloaded from the book, however!
04:41:09 <webquint> well it sounds like an awesome book
04:41:35 <webquint> even if the entire last half of the book is QR codes six per page
04:42:00 <zzo38> (If you want a description of the Computer Modern fonts, purchase the Computers & Typesetting Millenium Boxed Set)
04:45:15 <catseye> oerjan: you are a film buff! i have no reason for saying this
04:45:17 <zzo38> webquint: Of course some things might be changed; it is possible I will change things; perhaps it can include a DVD instead or something. Or perhaps only a minimal number of QR codes can be included for the most important stuff and the DVD containing everything. Or maybe no QR codes at all.
04:46:20 <oerjan> catseye: which might be why it's wrong
04:46:38 <zzo38> It can contain printouts of Enhanced CWEB programs. Have you ever seen (or heard of) Enhanced CWEB programs? (My implementation of BytePusher VM is written in Enhanced CWEB.)
04:46:45 <webquint> zzo38: you should make a spinoff "quine book" with the goal of having the smallest book possible containing all the data needed to generate every page of the book, without using any outside data, or any outside tools besides ZXing, cat, make, and gcc
04:47:04 <pikhq> Should definitely be used for magnet URIs.
04:47:07 <webquint> wherein the user does not have to actually *enter* any text
04:47:20 <zzo38> webquint: Ah, OK. That is another idea!
04:48:26 <catseye> it could include a program which takes a CC# and makes a series of calls to createspace.com services to replicate itself
04:48:47 <zzo38> And in that case, the book would also describe how it works, even.
04:48:58 <zzo38> catseye: No! No network calls. Everything must be done locally
04:49:16 <webquint> zzo38: printing a hardback book is hard to do locally
04:50:10 <zzo38> webquint: In that case, the "quine book" doesn't have to be a hardback book. It can be one that you punch holes in the pages and put it in a binder, or something like that.
04:50:43 <webquint> it would be fun to print out a few, and place them randomly in local bookstores and libraries, and see if they catch on
04:50:56 <zzo38> webquint: O, that is a idea.
04:52:56 <zzo38> Another note: I found out why Enhanced CWEB v0.3 wouldn't work on other computers; I fix it now and included a file "how_to_compile.txt" describing how you can compile Enhanced CWEB on your computer.
04:53:24 <webquint> the first page would describe the purpose of the book "this book assumes you are a competent Unixer and like playing around with funky things. This book contains all the programs and data you need to produce this book, along with the dead-easy instructions to do so. When finished, bind the resulting pages in a book like this one and stick it in a faraway bookstore or library or two or twenty. Let's see how far this thing can go
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04:55:05 <zzo38> webquint: Interesting idea!
04:55:24 <webquint> step 1) scan/take pictures of every page in the book. if you have the time to do this much, take heart! you're halfway there...."
04:56:39 <webquint> also you should license all the source code under a license which explicitly disallows it from being distributed in any form except book-full-of-QRs form
04:56:50 <zzo38> webquint: That isn't as good, eventually it will deteriorate quality
04:58:20 <zzo38> Still, I don't really plan to write this "quine book", but I might if I want to, or you can do so, or whatever.....
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04:58:29 <webquint> and put a license notice in the book which disallows it from being directly scanned/copied for any reason: all new books must be produced via the provided sources.
04:59:13 <zzo38> The C-TeX is just another program, the book containing C-TeX (and other things) would just intend to describe the computer programs used to create the book (in addition to a few other things).
05:00:08 <zzo38> webquint: Yes I know it is a silly idea but it can be imagine, anyways, whether or not it is actually done.
05:02:37 <webquint> why did no one tell me about this 11 language iterating quine?
05:03:16 <Gregor> You will recognize 4 corner Days or incur Easter Island Ending.
05:03:57 <zzo38> webquint: What 11 language iterating quine?
05:04:16 <webquint> i can't find a good link to it
05:05:24 <webquint> The Ruby code generates Python code, which generates Perl code, which generates Lua code, which generates OCaml code, which generates Haskell code, which generates C code, which generates Java code, which generates Brainfuck code, which generates Whitespace code, which generates Unlambda code, which generates the original Ruby code again.
05:05:52 <webquint> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/ku-ma-me/20090916/p1
05:06:19 <Gregor> I FINALLY WIN TIMECUBE
05:06:30 <webquint> and it's ridiculously short too...
05:07:03 <Gregor> There's one image that's REALLY hard to catch because it's right in the middle of a bunch of text, and if you miss it you can't get back up to it.
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05:07:06 <zzo38> Here is the source file I wrote for the BytePusher VM program: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/BytePusher.w Now you can see how a Enhanced CWEB program is written (as you can see, it combines TeX codes with C codes, as well as some other things)
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05:09:33 <zzo38> Now I can see that 11 language iterating quine. (I see yen signs where there should probably be backslashes)
05:10:17 <webquint> yeah i think he's using 255 to encode several things
05:10:39 <zzo38> Someone else added erlang and sh
05:10:44 <webquint> anyways, does anyone know this guy?
05:10:53 <webquint> he seems to be into a lot of esolang stuff
05:11:50 <webquint> Gregor: did you abstract sprites yet?
05:12:07 <Gregor> webquint: That will take a significant amount of time, and believe it or not I am doing other important things while doing this silliness :P
05:13:42 <webquint> also, because java is LAME, you have to name the java program QuineRelay
05:13:57 <webquint> (just kidding, Java is a p cool dude sometimes)
05:16:19 <zzo38> I will tell you something else: Hatena Diary now contains a short description of some of the commands in FlogScript (in Japanese). Actually there are a few things mentioning FlogScript on there. (Probably because it is one of the programming languages available on Anarchy Golf)
05:20:13 <zzo38> There are also many things about esolang on Hatena Diary.
05:21:42 <Gregor> Should it be possible to have perfect X acceleration while jumping in WebSplat?
05:21:51 <Gregor> It makes no physical sense of course, but most games let you.
05:23:09 <pikhq> It's just expected of 2D platformers.
05:23:32 <pikhq> Damn physical sense, it's very annoying to ruin expectations for no good reason.
05:24:13 <catseye> "perfect x acceleration"? please explain.
05:24:37 <pikhq> catseye: It's possible to change your movement in the x direction in midair in most platformers.
05:24:49 <catseye> ok, that was what i suspected it meant. thanks.
05:24:55 <Gregor> I actually mean the ability to change your X direction just as fast as you can on land.
05:25:14 <pikhq> Gregor: Though it makes no sense to have any control over it at *all* for the most part.
05:25:19 <zzo38> In some games you are not allowed to change direction while jumping.
05:25:37 <pikhq> Well, modulo certain things like changing your center of mass, and/or having *wings*.
05:25:50 * webquint just read the description of the perl pentomino solver quine
05:26:21 <catseye> indeed, irl you are better equipped to spin yourself in midair, which few 2d platformers support :)
05:26:42 <pikhq> catseye: Quite true. :)
05:27:09 <Gregor> Hmm, I actually kinda like it like this ... (with no X control midair)
05:27:19 <zzo38> In one 2D platform game I invented, your piece is the ball, and if you jump, it is too high, when it falls down it will break. So, you have to jump up onto a higher platform
05:27:34 <webquint> Gregor: i can add rocket shoes to the game, so that midair x control is a power-up
05:27:55 <Gregor> webquint: My policy of "you make the images and I'll make the physics" still stands :P
05:28:00 <Gregor> Although I have no useful time guarantees on that ...
05:28:04 <pikhq> Gregor: What makes even *less* sense is double-jumping.
05:28:10 <webquint> and double jumping in midair also requires rocket shoes
05:28:29 <webquint> so you could make it so by default you have to hit the ground before beginning the double jump
05:28:38 <pikhq> Or Mario-style walljumping.
05:28:53 <pikhq> (*2D* Mario-style walljumping)
05:29:20 <webquint> well the 2d mario games didn't feature double-jumping iirc
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05:29:36 <pikhq> There was a bug that lets you wall jump, though.
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05:30:08 <webquint> but in super mario sunshine you can jump-land-doublejump-land-triple-spin-jump
05:30:22 <webquint> which makes some amount of sense if you realize mario has trampoline shoes
05:30:40 <Gregor> I actually think I might like it with half as much acceleration both ground and air ...
05:31:52 <pikhq> 3 frames per second encoding!
05:32:31 <pikhq> Gregor: x264 is slow on 1080p content.
05:32:40 <Gregor> webquint, pikhq: Try websplat nao
05:32:50 <pikhq> Slower *still* when it's reading from 21G of PNGs.
05:32:57 <webquint> okai. have to go back to other computron first
05:38:26 <pikhq> Based on x264's estimates from a minute's worth encoded, this will be about 6 gigs.
05:39:03 <Gregor> Yeah, but you're going from totally independent PNGs to video with interframe/movement info.
05:39:32 <pikhq> 81,200 kbps seems like a doable bitrate.
05:41:02 <pikhq> Pity that's higher than the maximum permitted Bluray bitrate.
05:42:56 <pikhq> Still, essentially quite doable.
05:43:01 * webquint got distracted by the ruby spinning globe iteratng quine
05:44:59 <webquint> hey, i just thought of something
05:45:56 <webquint> one could probably make a QR code that encoded an actual GIF file which was said QR code.
05:46:04 <webquint> that's about as close to QR quine as one can get
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05:46:46 <zzo38> That might be a bit difficult to do, but there might be a way.
05:47:09 <zzo38> It might require coding the compressed data in the GUF file manually?
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05:47:58 <webquint> since, among other things, GIFs use RLE, it should be possible to specify the QR code in less data than the QR can store, thus making it possible
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05:49:19 <pikhq> Seems that this is about double the bitrate of a *Bluray* video.
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05:49:35 <quintopia> of course, there may be unforeseen issues with this idea...
05:50:48 <coppro> pikhq: one the upper-year students is quite involved in encoding. He's nearly finished writing some epicly awesome encoder or something
05:50:48 <quintopia> well, at the very least, it should be possible to produce an *iterating* QRine by brute force
05:51:31 <quintopia> just produce a QR code that outputs the right headers, fill in the rest randomly, and iteratively convert it a QR code, replace the header part with GIF header, and repeat
05:51:34 <pikhq> coppro: ATM I'm just staring in awe at the power of x264. I mean, this is *astounding* compression.
05:51:53 <fizzie> Given how noisy-looking QR codes are, I'm not sure how well they compress; and then there's overhead, both from the image file format and the QR code error-correction (though the latter can be tuned). But you could easily just take any random QR code image and see how small you could make it.
05:52:02 <pikhq> Apparently the raw video of this is 46GB. Going from 46GB to 6GB. That's absolutely *insane*.
05:53:04 <quintopia> this might actually be more likely to produce a period 1 QRine than an iterating one
05:53:21 <Sgeo> What's V8 like?
05:54:08 <quintopia> fizzie: they are noisy because they encode noisy data presumably. more regular data should compress better, which is good, as it is more likely to produce regular ouput too
05:54:28 <Sgeo> The WebM thing
05:54:39 <pikhq> Oh. Slightly worse than H.264.
05:54:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW, you realise that I'm discussing a *lossless encode* here, right?
05:55:14 <Sgeo> ...Lossless encode from 48GB to 6GB?
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05:55:46 <quintopia> Gregor: i like that you can see the sprites better this way, but it doesn't seem as action-intense. Increase acceleration by 50%?
05:56:30 <pikhq> Sgeo: This is *completely and utterly insane*.
05:56:42 <Gregor> quintopia: OK, try it now.
05:56:46 <quintopia> Gregor: or i could make some walking sprites and you could implement a sprint button... >:D
05:56:57 <Gregor> No; sprint button = bad.
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05:57:23 <pikhq> coppro: 1080p24 lossless video is ENTIRELY PRACTICAL with x264.
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05:57:30 <pikhq> My good motherfucking God.
05:58:05 <quintopia> Gregor: yeahhhh, anyway, i think this speed is good
05:58:10 <Gregor> How do normal platformers handle the disconnect between being able to accelerate mid-air and NOT being able to accelerate on ice?
05:58:14 <Sgeo> What's the bitrate/
05:58:17 <fizzie> quintopia: A compressed image format is bound to be pretty noisy. But do try it out.
05:58:29 <Sgeo> (not entirely sure I know what I'm asking)
05:58:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Currently, 73,000 kbps.
05:58:45 <pikhq> Note: estimate from encode in progress.
05:58:48 <Gregor> coppro: But this effectively means that if you're on ice, you'll do best by just jumping :P
05:59:00 <quintopia> fizzie: sure, we have to just hope there is a way to meet in the middle with JUST the right amount of compression and JUST the right amount of noise.
05:59:08 <coppro> Gregor: often your mid-air acceleration is not about as good as ice
05:59:15 <Sgeo> Wait, that's a bad thing for streaming
05:59:29 <pikhq> 73 megabits per second?
05:59:48 <pikhq> It *could* be done over a LAN.
05:59:52 <Gregor> coppro: I can't seem to work out the math on WebSplat such that that makes sense >_>
05:59:54 <Sgeo> Higher means more bandwidth needed for the same amount of time, right?
06:00:01 <fizzie> Also, I think the spec might have something in it to avoid large single-color patches, for easier decoding, but not sure.
06:00:35 <quintopia> Gregor: they don't bother to cohere the two, but rather just ensure that you maintain your horizontal acceleration achieved while in air once on the ground
06:00:58 <quintopia> and also disallow midair deceleration, only perfect reflection of velocity
06:01:32 * Gregor 's brain explodes at that one.
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06:02:16 <quintopia> what? it's a consistent physics if unrealistic...
06:02:42 <zzo38> If your brain explodes and one piece goes in one direction, and other piece has another specific mass at another velocity, what is the velocity of the third piece?
06:03:06 <quintopia> if you have a horizontal velocity when you take off, you have the same horizontal velocity when you land, even if the direction of said velocity has changed
06:03:55 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, of course you do. I was just giving it as an example.
06:04:24 <quintopia> zzo38: for instance, i need to know how to get the pieces back together so that i have the brainpower to compute the answer
06:04:39 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes.....
06:04:56 <quintopia> zzo38: and reconnecting severed neurons in the brain is an unsolved problem
06:05:23 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, OK.
06:05:53 <quintopia> zzo38: what i'm saying here is that i think you stink, but your mom is OK
06:07:28 <quintopia> gregor: actually, i think mario allows proper acceleration mid-air, but the acceleration system is so touchy that it's hard to land moving straight down, so you end up sliding around a bit anyway
06:08:37 <quintopia> zzo38: i'm not actually playing just trying to remember how SMW did it
06:09:13 <Gregor> So essentially, you can accelerate in the opposite direction, but not just decelerate, midair.
06:09:51 <zzo38> quintopia: So that is how.
06:12:31 <quintopia> Gregor: yeah, in SMW, acceleration in air works exactly like on land, except that if you stop accelerating in air, you maintain horizontal velocity, whereas on land, you lose it
06:12:50 <quintopia> pressing left or right in air *accelerates* in that direction, not instantly reflects like i said
06:13:35 <Gregor> So you can NEARLY slow yourself to zero horizontal motion just by being twitchy then?
06:13:38 <Gregor> It's just too twitchy?
06:14:23 <zzo38> Make a game with talking spider, and talking trees, and the Spanish Inquisition, and music to break phonographs by, and a copy of the game on VHS, inside of the game
06:15:49 <Gregor> quintopia: Then try what I just pushed.
06:17:09 <quintopia> zzo38: i already did it. you can find the data at the forty-seven-thousandth binary digit of the arithmoquinification of the proof of fermat's last theorem
06:18:58 <quintopia> you should show the slider image not just when the user is holding down a key, but any time the actual and desired velocities don't match
06:19:39 <quintopia> whatever that means in terms of acceleration
06:21:02 <quintopia> well, try it, we'll see if we like it
06:21:34 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't believe that........ Make a proper game.
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06:24:23 <Sgeo> Does Gregor's thing work in Opera?
06:24:32 <Gregor> Sgeo: Haven't tested it, feel free to try.
06:24:38 <Gregor> quintopia: Sometimes :P
06:24:44 <Gregor> quintopia: Errr, which direction slider? X-P
06:25:13 <quintopia> gregor: the same one that you would use in the same situation when the button is being held!
06:25:33 <Gregor> quintopia: That looks all backwards to me, like he's about to turn the other way rather than stop ...
06:25:50 <Sgeo> Using the down key was not a pleasant experience
06:27:28 <quintopia> Gregor: see if it looks better with gr0
06:30:58 <quintopia> Gregor: the first frame of dying is s'posed to be crouching! people don't crumple that way!
06:31:45 <Gregor> Uhhh, the first frame of dying is crouching ...
06:31:45 <Gregor> Err, second. First is kneeling.
06:32:30 <quintopia> how do you kneel without bending your knees first, hmm?
06:35:04 * Gregor read "crouching" as "crawling" X_X
06:35:21 <Gregor> And yeah, having gr0 as slide works, but I think it could be better.
06:35:32 <Gregor> That's better than either turner though.
06:35:38 <quintopia> well i'll think about making a special sprite for it
06:35:55 <quintopia> it's hard to envision that position tho
06:36:57 <quintopia> it would probably look a lot like gr0, except with the top half of body bent over
06:37:14 <quintopia> lemme go jump off of something and find out
06:37:40 <quintopia> (another possibility is having him tuck and roll like canabalt/every parkour runner
06:37:42 <Gregor> Err, wait, jump off something? For ... sliding?
06:38:40 <quintopia> erm, well, okay, possibly there should be two different sprites for landing-slides and stop-running-slides
06:39:06 * quintopia deviously plots infinite sprite proliferation
06:39:44 <quintopia> well, when i stop running, my body is in a gr0 position
06:40:07 <quintopia> then i stand up straight as i come to a stop
06:40:31 <Gregor> quintopia: OK, observe what I just pushed.
06:41:02 <quintopia> and when i land, i look like gr0 with the top half bent over like i described, so i'll make that one
06:41:37 <Gregor> What's all this "landing" mumbo-jumbo :P
06:42:36 <quintopia> well, actually, it looks okay like it is. possibly would look slightly better with landing sprite, but if you don't feel like jiggering it in, i won't make it.
06:43:44 <quintopia> small issue: when he comes to a stop up against a boundary, he still does the deceleration gr0 for a few hunder ms...
06:45:39 <quintopia> also: does your willingness to work on this now equate to being done with your important business you mentioned earlier?
06:46:03 <quintopia> cuz if so, fuck working on physics tweak and abstract sprites already
06:54:28 <Gregor> Yes, but it also equates to being nearly 2AM.
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06:58:50 <Gregor> Not that West Lafayette is a place.
06:59:26 <quintopia> it is not the "city" to which one should address envelopes send to purdue?
07:00:10 <Gregor> Just that your putting "city" in quotes is very apropos.
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07:14:54 <fizzie> quintopia: http://p.zem.fi/qruine + http://zem.fi/~fis/qruine.png -- I haven't tested decoding it, but as you can see from the first link, encoding that binary data gives an identical PNG file, so it should decode into itself too.
07:16:06 <fizzie> (The qr decoding thing in my phone reads it -- at firefox's maximum zoom level, anyway -- and it does start with "\x89PNG" like it should.)
07:18:48 <fizzie> Though it seems to stop there. I hope "qrencode -8" hasn't stopped encoding at the first null byte, actually.
07:19:23 <fizzie> That seems more likely, in fact. Meh, what a silly program.
07:23:58 <quintopia> fizzie: sweet! i don't have a QR decoder handy though...
07:24:35 <quintopia> unless said null byte issue makes it not an actual quine
07:25:22 <fizzie> It does look that way; any png file generated by that program seems to behave quine-like. I need a better QR encoder here, something that actually does handle binary data instead of just claiming to.
07:38:35 <fizzie> This "zint" library in --binary mode says "error: error: Invalid character in input string (only Latin-1 characters supported)" -- that doesn't sound very binary to me. ZXing's encoder API doesn't provide any way to specify the mode (though maybe it would guess correctly), and it's a huge library for just encoding things.
07:39:38 <fizzie> Maybe I could hack qrencode to work; though it seems to pass data around in a C-style string everywhere, so...
07:40:59 <fizzie> Well, it's only five or so functions, then it goes into QRinput_append(input, QR_MODE_8, strlen(string), (unsigned char *)string) -- after that it's hopefully safe.
07:45:14 <Ilari> Is there Piet program that outputs png of itself into stdout? :-)
07:46:18 <fizzie> Ilari: GIF, but http://mamememo.blogspot.com/2009/10/piet-quine.html
07:46:26 <fizzie> It looks a bit machine-generated.
07:46:37 <fizzie> The data part, anyway.
07:47:51 <fizzie> Hacked something binary to qrencode, and it actually seems to partially work, except that after a few iterations "Failed to encode the input data:: Invalid argument".
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07:57:55 <fizzie> Oh, it's just that the image grows too large. (I wrote a simple little fixed-point finder that keeps encoding a PNG, but the problem is that the encoded output is a bigger QR code than the input, and that again generates a larger PNG file, and yet larger code, and so on, until it goes >2k bytes, which is the maximum you can stick in.)
07:59:05 <quintopia> does png compress better than gif for black/white?
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08:00:31 <fizzie> A bit, for this one file.
08:00:33 <fizzie> -rw-rw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 632 2010-10-22 09:59 qruine-out.gif
08:00:33 <fizzie> -rw-rw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 617 2010-10-22 09:58 qruine-out.png
08:00:53 <quintopia> apparently png usually produces smaller files
08:01:16 <quintopia> but you should make sure you've turned off all the special stuff it can provide
08:01:56 <fizzie> Well, qrencode generates PNG files directly. But I've ran them through pngcrush with not much changes.
08:02:51 <quintopia> "solid blocks of color compress best"
08:04:37 <fizzie> Whaaat. qrencode-generated PNGs are 8-bit indexed-color images. I'm *sure* I checked one out before, and it wasn't.
08:06:21 <fizzie> I mean, I was computing the QR code overhead: to encode a bitstring 290 bytes (2320 bits) long, it needs a black-and-white image of 61*61 pixels (3721 bits, ~465 bytes); then I went to see that corresponding .PNG file, and that was 617 bytes.
08:08:55 <quintopia> so, how to make its output monochromes?
08:20:38 <fizzie> Actually I guess the "8-bit" just came from "identify"; the bit depth field of IHDR is 1, like it should be. Seems like small black-and-white images aren't really PNG's strong point, though, given that it uses 4936 bits to encode 3721 black-and-white pixels.
08:22:10 <GreaseMonkey> but yeah, png tends to produce better-packed files than gif
08:23:43 <fizzie> Palettized images at least use 8-bit palette indices even if the palette only has 2 colors in it; I can't find the bit in the spec that'd say grayscale images with bit depth 1 (1, 2, 4, 8, 16 are all listed as allowed) would pack each sample to one byte, but it might at that.
08:24:40 <olsner> indexed images also have bit depth, so you can have 8-bit indexed with any palette size
08:24:41 <quintopia> maybe a DEFLATE quine could be converted into this kind of quine with some effort?
08:25:11 <olsner> and also 1-, 2- and 4-bit indexed, according to e.g. wikipedia
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08:28:10 <Punk> anyone alive in here?
08:28:39 <Punk> do you know anything about the 'order of the ookpik'? it's a secret society one of my family members was in and i can't find any information about it ANYWHERE
08:28:50 <fizzie> olsner: You can, but it doesn't help: the palette indices in the actual image are still 8 bits, no matter what.
08:28:54 <fizzie> olsner: "The sample depth is the same as the bit depth except in the case of indexed-colour PNG images (colour type 3), in which the sample depth is always 8 bits (see 4.4: PNG image)."
08:29:53 <quintopia> although the article i read said it used the same LZW that pkzip uses
08:30:05 <fizzie> olsner: Or, actually, I guess the sample depth refers to the palette entries, which would make sense.
08:30:43 <GreaseMonkey> i've managed to make a .gif reader and a .gz (DEFLATE) extractor
08:31:29 <fizzie> Anyway, for this particular 61x61 black-and-white image, the PNG is 617 bytes while the corresponding .bmp is 550; a bit rare to see BMP beat PNG in a size comparison.
08:31:42 <Punk> LOL it's SOOO esoteric in here
08:31:44 <quintopia> GreaseMonkey: create a file that compresses to itself when using the same compression scheme as PNG
08:32:03 <Punk> can anyone refer me to a channel that might be able to help my inquiry?
08:32:09 <Punk> i'm desperate for info here
08:32:11 <GreaseMonkey> quintopia: it's called droste.zip except it also contains a .jpg in it as well
08:32:38 <quintopia> i'd say it'd be hard since it's a *secret* society
08:32:57 <Punk> well, there is a good deal of info on other small societies sprinkled online
08:33:04 <Punk> even really tiny ones
08:33:08 <quintopia> GreaseMonkey: no we need it to just be itself
08:33:17 <Punk> but i'll stop interrupting you guys
08:33:21 <Punk> not trying to be a pain
08:33:35 <Punk> but if anyone can refer me to a channel that discusses these things i'd be really appreciative
08:33:55 <fizzie> We should probably find out, though; there are seekers for such things every now and then.
08:34:50 <quintopia> GreaseMonkey: also, we need to be able to stick *several* introns into it
08:35:12 <fizzie> #esoteric in DALnet has a topic of "Do you belive in faries and nature spirits?", which is... uh, closer?
08:35:29 <Punk> i do a google search for "order of the ookpik" and there is ONE result. one guy in a forum referencing th eorder i talk of
08:35:38 <Punk> TYVM, i appreciate the help
08:36:15 <quintopia> GreaseMonkey: places where we can stick arbitrary data, and it will get output in the right place as well.
08:37:01 <quintopia> actually, it may be enough to have one intron at the beginning of the data and one at the end
08:37:32 <GreaseMonkey> so in other words you want a DEFLATE file which compresses down into itself?
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08:38:40 <quintopia> http://www.steike.com/code/useless/zip-file-quine/ is such a thing then
08:38:42 <fizzie> PNG does do DEFLATE, but it also does all kinds of filters and rearrangements.
08:38:49 <quintopia> but i've seen a version of this that allows introns too
08:38:59 <fizzie> And a bigger problem is the (I think reasonably complicated) QR code encoding+error-correction scheme.
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08:39:20 <quintopia> i think Punk can't figure out how to connect to dalnet...
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08:39:37 <quintopia> Punk: having trouble getting to DALnet?
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08:40:06 <olsner> the QR encoding's overhead should give you some kind of bound on how well the resulting image must compress with deflate
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08:41:26 <quintopia> we may require the largest QRcode possible
08:44:19 <GreaseMonkey> oh yeah also: http://research.swtch.com/2010/03/zip-files-all-way-down.html
08:44:52 <quintopia> yeah i think that's the one that explains where introns go
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09:02:13 <GreaseMonkey> also duncan's post here: http://research.swtch.com/2010/03/zip-files-all-way-down.html#comment-8411293207450220669
09:02:34 <GreaseMonkey> it would be interesting making a .zip which produces a .zip which produces its parent
09:04:56 <GreaseMonkey> hmm, actually, r.zip uses a "stored" block to begin with
09:09:00 <GreaseMonkey> and then stored, then static huffman, then some empty stored blocks
09:10:33 <GreaseMonkey> after that it seems there's another stored block
09:10:55 <GreaseMonkey> wait no it's not dynamic huffman it's just another stored block
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09:11:41 <GreaseMonkey> there's quite a long static huffman one actually
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09:13:02 <GreaseMonkey> wait no it ends in a 6-byte stored block or something
09:14:43 <fizzie> The QR code error correction might help a bit, too: you can freely mangle about 7% of the data-carrying bits of the image (at the lowest allowed error correction level == smallest overhead) without affecting the output bytes, so you could use that to make the bitmap more compressible. I don't have time to fiddle with this right now, though.
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10:46:46 <Vorpal> first snow this year already
11:00:09 <ais523> you didn't have any in January?
11:14:48 <Vorpal> ais523, err, this season then
11:15:52 <ais523> none over here in the UK yet, but I wouldn't expect it as early as October
11:16:22 <Vorpal> ais523, I wouldn't expect it this early here either
11:16:32 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, it seems to be melting now during the day.
11:16:45 <Vorpal> but when I woke up this morning it was quite a bit of it
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11:25:23 <fizzie> It was -4 degrees Celsius here this morning, and I think there was a little bit of something snow-like one day, but nothing that would have actually stayed on the ground.
11:32:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is still on the ground here, but going fast
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13:55:15 <elliott> 17:57:32 <catseye> Ew. There's a GNU Netcat.
13:55:20 <elliott> 18:00:31 <catseye> Well, but, if it works, it works -- whatever netcat comes with Cygwin doesn't.
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14:17:58 <catseye> elliott: say hello to storkbot. e's running on Windows Vista, simply because that is so totally advisable, using a tiny netcat-alike I hacked together in Python, because cygwin's nc doesn't do -e properly.
14:19:09 <elliott> <elliott> 18:00:31 <catseye> Well, but, if it works, it works -- whatever netcat comes with Cygwin doesn't.
14:19:23 <pikhq> elliott: Elephant's Dream, 1080p24, lossless.
14:19:34 <catseye> elliott: it is hobbit netcat -- it looks like something about buffering on cygwin is off
14:19:43 <elliott> pikhq: But the small one was, you know.
14:19:54 <pikhq> (63 megabits per second)
14:19:55 <elliott> catseye: everything about cygwin is off, it's awful
14:20:06 <elliott> catseye: I think *H*'s has native Windows support.
14:20:15 <pikhq> elliott: The 480p one is 1.1G.
14:20:37 <elliott> "_H* 960320 v1.10 RELEASE -- happy spring!"
14:20:43 <elliott> catseye: http://nc110.sourceforge.net/ is the archive of it
14:20:52 <elliott> worth trying that tarball with a native compiler perhaps
14:20:56 <catseye> thanks. well, need to be off to work, will continue l8r
14:21:08 <elliott> @echo "DOS?! Maybe someday, but not now"
14:21:38 <elliott> catseye: http://www.hackosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/nc111nt.zip
14:21:39 <pikhq> Compression ratio of 15% for the 480p one, 24% for the 1080p one.
14:21:41 <elliott> catseye: http://joncraton.org/files/nc111nt.zip
14:21:47 <pikhq> This is, frankly, *absurd* compression.
14:21:48 <elliott> catseye: hobbit netcat 1.10 for winnt
14:22:00 <pikhq> Erm, sorry, unfair comparision.
14:22:04 <elliott> pikhq: so if it was a feature film
14:22:13 <elliott> elephant's dream is 10 min 54 sec i.e. 11 minutes
14:22:21 <pikhq> That was raw vs. compressed against PNG vs. compressed.
14:22:21 <elliott> how long's a feature film these days pikhq? 120 minutes?
14:22:26 <elliott> let's say 120 minutes or so
14:23:07 <elliott> pikhq: so a 1080p feature-length film at 24fps would be about 55 GiB.
14:23:29 <elliott> pikhq: it, well, it wouldn't fit on a dual-layer blu-ray though
14:23:36 <elliott> (only 50 GB... or GiB? Who knows?)
14:23:42 <pikhq> Okay, compression ratio of about 11%, actually.
14:23:49 <elliott> [[The BDXL format supports 100GB and 128GB write-once discs[70][71] and 100GB rewritable discs for commercial applications. It was defined in June 2010.
14:23:49 <elliott> BD-R 3.0 Format Specification (BDXL) defined a multi-layered recordable in BDAV format with the speed of 2X and 4X, capable of 100/128GB and usage of UDF2.5/2.6.[72]
14:23:49 <elliott> BD-RE 4.0 Format Specification (BDXL) defined a multi-layered rewritable in BDAV with the speed of 2X and 4X, capable of 100GB and usage of UDF2.5 as file system.[73]]]
14:24:13 <elliott> pikhq: now what i'm waitin' for
14:24:14 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
14:24:15 <pikhq> elliott: (5 gigs from 46 gigs)
14:24:51 <elliott> pikhq: are you with me or what
14:25:01 <elliott> pikhq: rather than perfect encoding, higher resolution helps more
14:25:03 <elliott> and also masks encoding errors
14:25:07 <elliott> so we won't see lossless discs
14:25:11 <elliott> just lossy discs with insane resolution
14:25:16 <elliott> also that yields pixel density
14:25:33 <elliott> pikhq: a 4K lossy film will look way better than a 1080p lossless film
14:25:37 <pikhq> Though the compression ratio appears to improve as the resolution goes up.
14:25:38 <elliott> if the lossy compression is good
14:25:51 <elliott> since one little bit of space tends not to be very detailed :P
14:26:03 <pikhq> elliott: Problem: compression tends to suck ass. Morons do Blu-ray and DVD encodes.
14:26:13 <elliott> I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_High_Definition_Television
14:26:33 <elliott> pikhq: but seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
14:27:13 <pikhq> elliott: What's impressive is that you could stick this *lossless* 1080p24 on a DVD.
14:27:26 <elliott> pikhq: yes, all ten minutes of it :P
14:27:37 <elliott> pikhq: what about non-disc media?
14:27:40 <pikhq> This is *far* better than I thought it would do.
14:27:48 <elliott> pikhq: how small can external hard drives get :D
14:28:48 <pikhq> Sadly, my computer can't play this back in real-time.
14:29:12 <coppro> yeah, the HVD is impressive in terms of physical compression of data
14:29:34 <elliott> but it has less decompressing to do!
14:29:53 <coppro> admittedly, we don't actually have a 6TB one in manufacturing yet
14:30:03 <coppro> because it turns out making 6TB discs isn't exactly easy
14:30:26 <pikhq> Can do the 480p one just fine, though.
14:31:13 <elliott> pikhq: Care to give me the 480p one?
14:31:21 <elliott> pikhq: I guess it might take too long.
14:31:42 <elliott> I'VE NEVER SEEN ELEPHANTS DREAM LOL
14:31:43 <pikhq> elliott: I've got to leave for class soon; I need to get ready. Sooo... Can you wait a few hours?
14:31:54 <elliott> pikhq: It may be worth doing it overnight. :P
14:32:05 <elliott> pikhq: Or... just give me the command-line flags and a link to their source files.
14:32:33 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Elephant's Dream, 1080p24, lossless.
14:32:53 <pikhq> http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/elephants_dream_480p24.y4m.xz , mencoder elephants_dream_480p24.y4m -ovc x264 -x264encopts qp=0:preset=slow -o elephants_dream_480p24.avi
14:33:04 <pikhq> FLACs for the audio available from http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/flac/ED/
14:33:23 <elliott> also, surely the preset shouldn't matter, if it's lossless?
14:33:33 <elliott> pikhq: got bittorrent links?
14:33:56 <pikhq> The preset also governs how well it compresses.
14:34:13 <pikhq> You get higher compression ratio with slower presets when doing lossless encode.
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14:35:02 <elliott> pikhq: How long does this take? :P
14:35:18 <pikhq> Maybe half an hour after you've got the source files.
14:35:26 <pikhq> Erm, no, faster than that...
14:35:34 <pikhq> I recall encoding in real-time, actually.
14:35:48 <elliott> pikhq: Any convenient bittorrent links?
14:36:30 <elliott> pikhq: http://orange.blender.org/blog/first-european-hd-dvd-released-and-its-elephants-dream/ ho ho ho
14:36:36 <elliott> pikhq: but wikipedia said they did torrentzzzz
14:37:33 <elliott> <pikhq> http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/elephants_dream_480p24.y4m.xz , mencoder elephants_dream_480p24.y4m -ovc x264 -x264encopts qp=0:preset=slow -o elephants_dream_480p24.avi
14:37:45 <pikhq> You can remux it afterwards.
14:37:54 <elliott> pikhq: can't you just output it to mkv?
14:38:24 <elliott> as in it doesn't work or they like to pretend it doesn't?
14:38:49 <elliott> 0% [ ] 5,844,530 840K/s eta 42m 52s
14:39:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/flac/ED/ which of these do i want?
14:39:32 <pikhq> elliott: The stereo one, probably.
14:39:51 <pikhq> No, the stereo one. It's "stereo" for stereo.
14:40:05 <cheater_> elliott: you want the "St" one
14:40:13 <cheater_> or L, R, and C mixed to left and right
14:40:23 <cheater_> (since Center usually contains the dialogue)
14:40:48 <cpressey> last thing i saw last night was Sgeo asking whether V8 was any good... i didn't have the opportunity to explain how it is linked to the Last Supper
14:40:51 <elliott> pikhq: OK, easy way to mix that in? Just give it to mencoder?
14:40:53 <pikhq> elliott: Or you could wait until I'm willing to post a torrent so you could have a single 5.1 FLAC.
14:41:03 <elliott> pikhq: That would be nice :P
14:41:11 <pikhq> elliott: -audiofile the_file_here
14:41:32 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, most video players *won't* automatically mix that down to stereo audio.
14:45:16 <elliott> I would just like to say that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_ICcz6kXP0.
14:45:27 <elliott> pikhq: even if you tell it to? like as an option
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14:51:20 <elliott> pikhq: NAND flash is accelerating faster than Moore's law
14:51:28 <elliott> "Due to its relatively simple structure and high demand for higher capacity, NAND flash memory is the most aggressively scaled technology among electronic devices. The heavy competition among the top few manufacturers only adds to the aggressiveness. Current projections show the technology to reach approximately 20 nm by around late 2011. While the expected shrink timeline is a factor of two every three years per original version of Moore's law,
14:51:28 <elliott> this has recently been accelerated in the case of NAND flash to a factor of two every two years."
14:51:32 <elliott> "The aggressive trend of process design rule shrinks in NAND Flash memory technology effectively accelerates Moore's Law."
14:51:39 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NAND_scaling_timeline.png
14:52:50 <cpressey> not a real law anyway, OK to accelerate it
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14:57:14 <cheater_> also: nice: http://www.ambiosonics.de/session26/STE001A.mp3
14:58:27 <cheater_> http://www.ambiosonics.de/session26/STE001B.mp3
14:59:57 <elliott> "Ed, I know I've only been around now and again - the family and work come first! - but I have the real inside scoop on an atheist meeting in the UK. Some really big names, some really shocking talks." -- Conservapedia
15:01:51 <cheater_> pikhq: it's OK to answer my question
15:14:03 <elliott> cpressey: "In our HTML version of last week's SNCJ, we noted that Iowa had ended their fiscal year with a $755 budget surplus. This was supposed to say $755 million. We regret the error."
15:15:56 <fizzie> elliott: You can use "-af hrtf" to do a headphone-optimized multichannel-to-stereo with spatiality; or you can use "-af pan=[suitable options]" to manually mix the channels however you wish. (I think the default routing indeed is just to truncate the 'extra' channels.)
15:16:26 <elliott> fizzie: Can you just do "mix everything on the left side to left, everything on the right to right, and centre at 50% volume in both channels"?
15:16:33 <elliott> Well, plus some scaling for typical distances to those speakers.
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15:18:06 <fizzie> Manually with pan, sure; I'm not sure if there's a default for that.
15:18:16 <elliott> Or I could just use the stereo file. :P
15:18:33 <fizzie> The hrtf trick is nice for headphones, though.
15:19:32 <elliott> Wow, that uncompressed 3D animation is some schweet-looking shit.
15:20:17 <fizzie> Some of the codecs might also do more or less sensible downmixing; the -channels N option says "In that case [of AC-3 multichannel stuff] liba52 does the decoding by default and correctly downmixes the audio into the requested number of channels."
15:20:47 <fizzie> Probably flac-decoding won't do anything clever.
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15:28:18 <elliott> "“Not Privileged”…God is a GEOCENTRIC Creator, because He is at the
15:28:18 <elliott> ‘center of all things’, including His universe, and whilst He is also the
15:28:18 <elliott> WORD, His written Word (Holy Scripture) is therefore GEOCENTRIC as
15:28:18 <elliott> well, being the ‘center of all truth’ written, and if we (The Earth) are
15:28:18 <elliott> the Lord’s “footstool”, then it is logical for the Earth to be
15:28:19 <elliott> GECENTRICIALLY located at the ‘center of the universe’ beneath His
15:30:39 <fizzie> elliott: I think PulseAudio will mix things down for you automagically, though. (At least if I mplayer a 5.1 FLAC file, I get six per-app volume control sliders, and output to a two-channel sink. (But I couldn't begin to guess how well it does that, and whether it just discards channels.)
15:30:48 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, uh, PulseAudio.
15:31:01 <fizzie> Ah, you did that already. Never mind, then.
15:31:13 <elliott> fizzie: It's a peaceful life now, without graphical volume controls as it is.
15:31:51 <fizzie> You're missing out on Ubuntu 10.10.10.10.10's "control your music player via the volume control" thing. (Not that I've even seen it, but it was advertised as a hot new feature.)
15:32:25 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, I ... don't use Rhythmbox.
15:32:51 <fizzie> Yes, I saw that; you were using your Spherecubes or whatevers.
15:33:25 <elliott> fizzie: Currently I'm... "between music players".
15:33:59 <fizzie> It's good to take a break; it wouldn't be fair to the next one if it were just a rebound music player.
15:34:59 <elliott> fizzie: My last music player cheated on me with another guy. I'm a monogamous software user; I refuse to use any program unless I'm the only user.
15:35:11 <fizzie> 88.2 kHz, huh. I wasn't aware people actually use that.
15:35:34 <elliott> pikhq will now yell at whoever did that.
15:36:16 <elliott> "Personally, I hear a huge difference when tracking at higher sample rates like 96kHz, and the detail is stunning, but once you convert to 44.1kHz (CD quality) the detail you had captured disappears." -- ah, quack audiophiles.
15:36:21 <fizzie> http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads-testfiles.aspx -- the first place I found a 5.1 FLAC sample from.
15:37:02 <elliott> fizzie: "*Please note: Currently no 5.1 files are available for download."
15:37:18 <fizzie> I think it means "files other than this sample here", yes.
15:37:31 <elliott> http://bleep.com/ switched from FLAC to WAV a while ago and this saddens me.
15:39:05 <fizzie> There's also a 192 kHz stereo sample, but that's not surprising; I just thought the whole 11.025/22.05/44.1 sequence stopped there, and everyone going higher went 48/96/192, not to 88.2 (and presumably to 176.4 kHz next).
15:39:31 <elliott> apparently people do 88.2 so that downconversion to 44.1 is easier
15:41:36 <fizzie> FLAC "supports linear sample rates from 1Hz - 655350Hz in 1Hz increments" -- isn't that a bit strange limit too? I could sort-of see 10 Hz .. 65535 Hz with a two-byte field or something, but they explicitly say it's a 1 Hz increment.
15:41:55 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe there's, like, overhead in each little... sample bit.
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15:42:07 <elliott> So that going any higher would mean there's no room and you'd have to split it across two thingies?
15:44:18 <Ilari> It really is 1Hz-655350Hz in 1Hz increments.
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15:44:56 <elliott> Perhaps 655351 would push some sort of periodic header over a limit causing it to be split and... I really don't know.
15:45:50 <elliott> Fun things to do: Read "learn English" forums.
15:45:51 <elliott> [[Am I on the right track? Are you a train?
15:45:52 <elliott> Oh, another idiom! Yes you are!]]
15:47:14 <Ilari> The field itself would go to 1048575Hz, but apparently other things break if it would be larger than 655350Hz.
15:58:44 <elliott> "Scotland is a prime example of what happens in societies which adopt the anti Biblical atheistic philosophy of evolution."
16:02:06 <yorick> what's wrong with scotland?
16:02:50 <elliott> Nothing at all, that's why it's so amusing.
16:02:58 <elliott> Picking on Scotland as a prime example of society's depravity.
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16:06:02 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 7.5G 2010-10-22 16:05 elephants_dream_480p24.y4m
16:06:02 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 1.6G 2010-02-07 19:17 elephants_dream_480p24.y4m.xz
16:27:46 <elliott> $ mencoder elephants_dream_480p24.y4m -audiofile ED-CM-St-16bit.flac -of lavf -ovc x264 -x264encopts qp=0:preset=slow -o elephants_dream_480p24.mkv
16:28:06 <elliott> Audio format 0x43614c66 is incompatible with '-oac copy', please try '-oac pcm' instead or use '-fafmttag' to override it.
16:32:16 * elliott just creates a pure video to remux later
16:49:38 <cpressey> i have a sudden urge to write iterators which yield further iterators in an unbounded sequence and then iterate them in some general recursive way hey Phantom_Hoover hasn't been here much recently has he oh well time for more coffee I guess
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16:54:50 <elliott> cpressey: what... time is it
16:55:18 <elliott> "Umm, Saddest Turtle, I think I'm goingt o hang out with your cousin instead of you today. Also, all days." --Buttersafe
16:57:07 <elliott> cpressey: i prescribe coffee
16:58:00 <cpressey> the recursive iterator thing isn't actually that interesting
16:58:22 <cpressey> except maybe if the language implementation breaks in interesting ways if you stress it
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17:03:17 <elliott> Video stream: 14317.289 kbit/s
17:05:03 -!- evincar has joined.
17:07:19 -!- mycroftiv has changed nick to MYCROFTIV.
17:15:28 <elliott> MYCROFTIV SURE IS SHOUTING
17:15:35 <elliott> evincar sure is of autumn (did i remember your name right)
17:15:50 <MYCROFTIV> IVE BEEN TOLD ITS INTERNATIONAL CAPS LOCK DAY
17:16:11 <elliott> MYCROFTIV: ARE YOU STILL A PLAN 9 WEENIE
17:16:20 <MYCROFTIV> SO FOR TODAY WRITE ALL CODE IN OLD FORTRAN AND 80S BASIC - AND YES I AM
17:16:32 <elliott> MYCROFTIV: PROTIP IF YOU HOLD DOWN SHIFT you can type normally.
17:16:37 <evincar> MYCROFTIV: It's not Billy Mays Day.
17:17:04 <elliott> BILLY MAYS DAY WAS MERGED WITH COCAINE DAY RECENTLY
17:17:27 <evincar> Oh, no, you're right, caps lock day it is.
17:18:16 <elliott> WHY IS THERE TWO INTERNATIONAL CAPSLOCK DAYS
17:20:07 <elliott> anyone know if FLAC has an AVI audio format tag? >_>
17:23:40 <evincar> No idea. What are you trying to do?
17:23:59 <elliott> evincar: We're playing around with lossless HD video.
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17:44:54 <cpressey> THEY ALLOW ME TO BE AWARE OF TWELVE THINGS A YEAR
17:49:03 <webquint> cpressey: BUT THE MONTHS ARE MULTIPURPOSE!!!! :D
17:49:16 <webquint> elliott: so, who're you doing?
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17:52:52 <cpressey> nice, colordiff seems to come with cdiff now
17:53:01 <cpressey> maybe it has for a while and i never noticed
17:58:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm cdiff seems cool. Always loved colordiff of course
17:58:49 <elliott> coppro: THINKPAD ENGINEERING
17:58:57 <coppro> elliott: I mean actually yay
17:59:02 <coppro> I get a new free battery with full life
17:59:08 <elliott> coppro: ...this is what's wrong with everything
17:59:14 <Vorpal> coppro, broke in what way? mechanical?
17:59:22 <coppro> Vorpal: probably the controller broke
17:59:39 <coppro> in any case, it doesn't charge/discharge, though it reports that it has 67% charge
17:59:48 <Vorpal> coppro, be glad it isn't a mac, then you would have to send it in to get the battery replaced
17:59:49 <elliott> "Apple is deprecating its support for Java on Mac OS X"
18:00:20 <coppro> double awesome: the tech shop on campus is a Lenovo shop too
18:00:30 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, apple supports java? As opposed to sun or more recently oracle?
18:01:14 <coppro> elliott: dollars to donuts it has to do with the mac store
18:02:06 <Vorpal> coppro, is this some new thing separate from the normal apple retail stores?
18:02:52 <coppro> Vorpal: yes, it's an app store, except for mac
18:05:24 <coppro> Vorpal: I smell that Java apps may not be permitted on it
18:06:22 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: SCREW YOU ALL).
18:06:59 <coppro> (this is both the worst and the best thing to come to desktop computing)
18:08:11 <Vorpal> as in, what makes you say "the best thing"
18:08:18 <Vorpal> worst I can easily see yes
18:08:23 <coppro> Vorpal: Because package management for Linux has existed for a long time and it's awesome. It's logical to commercialize it with the OS (it's already been done externally, e.g. Steam). Unfortunately, standard "fucking Apple and their control" applies
18:09:36 <Vorpal> coppro, hm, it does dependency stuff and such?
18:10:17 <Ilari> OMG: arin|US|ipv4|50.128.0.0|8388608|20101021|allocated
18:10:19 <Vorpal> coppro, my experience of closed source is that even for linux such tends to bundle about every library that it can rather than using those already installed on the system. Exception would be libc
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18:11:00 <Vorpal> Ilari, why OMG at that allocation?
18:11:26 <Vorpal> also where is the netmask
18:12:16 <coppro> Vorpal: I would butVorwn. I ipackasne sul he librarie yone cciple is always good Alse rprising,do and AAPL and one of them is retarded.
18:12:49 <elliott> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/114732870_bab0bdae2c_b.jpg
18:12:51 <Ilari> And look at the date...
18:12:52 <Vorpal> coppro, err? "I would [007F][007F][007F]butVorwn"
18:13:07 <elliott> <coppro> Vorpal: I would butVorwn. I ipackasne sul he librarie yone cciple is always good Alse rprising,do and AAPL and one of them is retarded.
18:13:26 <Ilari> So /9 allocated yesterday...
18:13:39 <Vorpal> oh right I see. some sort of drop-letters encoding
18:13:47 <Vorpal> don't have time to decrypt it right now, food is ready
18:14:20 <elliott> ? ?! ?! ! ?! ?!!!! ?!? ? ? !
18:14:30 <elliott> Ilari: that's... that's big, why are we allocating that much
18:15:02 -!- elliott has left (?).
18:15:04 -!- elliott has joined.
18:16:09 -!- jcp has joined.
18:16:26 <Ilari> This IPv4 depletion tool says that ARIN would request and get 2 /8s from IANA at any time.
18:18:19 <coppro> Vorpal: I apologize, my computer crashed
18:18:31 <coppro> Vorpal: it's good because it was going to happen, and thus it is better sooner than later
18:18:41 <Ilari> Which is a surprise. Don't know if it takes that almost-/8s released back into account...
18:18:55 <coppro> also, it almost certainly won't do dependencies, because all the applications on there will probably depend only on system libraries
18:19:02 <Vorpal> coppro, why was it going to crash?
18:19:45 <coppro> Vorpal: seriously, think about it. We've seen commercial platforms before, like Steam. Integrating them into the OS is the next logical step, and MSFT is retarded, leaving it to AAPL, the only other significant commercial operating system company.
18:19:58 <coppro> Vorpal: no, my computer did crash
18:20:13 <Ilari> Probably not, as 45/8 completely marked as assigned.
18:20:59 <Vorpal> coppro, running what OS?
18:21:20 <coppro> I think it was the wireless driver running out of memory that did it
18:21:26 <Vorpal> coppro, huh, never seen linux crash in any way leading to "butVorwn. I ipackasne sul he librarie yone cciple is always good Alse rprising,do and AAPL and one of them is retarded."
18:21:38 <coppro> sort of broke the input stream
18:21:40 <Ilari> Worst case scenario would be the "run on the bank" scenario. Would result quick exhaustion of IANA pool.
18:21:55 <coppro> and then the wireless driver (based on what flashed on my screen before it died) probably failed
18:23:07 <Vorpal> coppro, hm okay. still seems like an implausible result. "not sending a garbled string" seems a more likely outcome. Or just sending completely random data. That line still looked like words and so on, just not actually existing words
18:23:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:23:30 <coppro> Vorpal: I assure you I attempted to type something and that the result was a subset of what I attempted to type
18:23:37 <coppro> apparently the enter key made it too
18:23:41 <Vorpal> coppro, ah, that makes some sense
18:23:57 <Vorpal> coppro, out of order or just dropped chars?
18:26:43 <Ilari> Someone who is familar with WHOIS could look up who grabbed that /9...
18:27:20 <Vorpal> what linux needs (because dropping overcommitting of memory is going to break too many things that depends on it) is some sort of memory reservations for critical programs. Like if syslog is pid X you could say "pid X must be able to allocate up to Y MB, swapping to do so is okay". This differs from mlock() since that would forbid swapping as well
18:28:28 <Ilari> How did I feel it was some large ISP...
18:28:30 <Vorpal> Ilari, anyway just "whois 50.128.0.0/9" in the terminal worked.
18:28:38 <Vorpal> though it did complain a bit:
18:28:40 <Vorpal> # Query terms are ambiguous. The query is assumed to be:
18:28:51 <Vorpal> (which was indeed the correct interpretation)
18:31:55 <Vorpal> coppro, what were you doing that caused the OOM btw?
18:32:23 <elliott> 21:53:21 <Sgeo> What's V8 like?
18:33:40 <elliott> 21:55:14 <Sgeo> ...Lossless encode from 48GB to 6GB?
18:33:41 <elliott> 21:58:14 <Sgeo> What's the bitrate/
18:33:41 <elliott> 21:58:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Currently, 73,000 kbps.
18:33:41 <elliott> 21:59:15 <Sgeo> Wait, that's a bad thing for streaming
18:33:53 <elliott> "I don't just want reasonably-sized lossless 1080p encodes; I want to watch them on YouTube!"
18:33:58 <elliott> 21:59:54 <Sgeo> Higher means more bandwidth needed for the same amount of time, right?
18:35:43 <elliott> 22:21:34 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't believe that........ Make a proper game.
18:37:55 <nooga> I THINK THAT CREATORS OF BASH HAVE TOO MUCH SENSE OF HUMOUR
18:38:09 <nooga> ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu
18:41:25 <Ilari> And that 8M block isn't the only one this week... There seems to be at least 2.5M of other allocations, pushing allocations from ARIN this week to over 10M addresses...
18:48:31 <elliott> Ilari: so are they trying to use up ipv6 as quickly as they did ipv4?
18:48:34 <cpressey> nooga: FI FI, THAT'S NOT SO OD
18:49:51 <Ilari> The IPv6 IANA pool is at 99%... That's going to take a while. Dunno how long the IPv4 pool lasts...
18:51:44 <nooga> WHERE'S THE LOGIC?
18:53:15 <cpressey> oh yeah it is like that isn't it
18:54:04 <cpressey> it inherited esac and fi from sh, i'm pretty sure
18:54:23 <cpressey> and i know I've seen do ... od *somewhere*
18:54:35 <cpressey> although, that *somewhere* might be Draco
18:55:45 <cpressey> elliott: I have gone back and forth on this, but I have decided that at present, I cannot handle Ruby.
18:55:54 <elliott> cpressey: What tipped you over the edge?
18:56:48 <cpressey> elliott: Ehh... two things, sort of: contemplating writing my netcat replacement in it and looking at its libraries; and, uh, that what it calls "metaprogramming".
18:57:03 <cpressey> But also everything else about it.
18:57:06 <elliott> cpressey: Its networking libraries are actually really nice, compared to Python.
18:57:14 <elliott> Its other libraries are... actually they're good, but the documentation is lacking.
18:57:34 <cpressey> I could not figure out how to change or set the buffering on the IO object. Which has Ruby-level and system-level buffering.
18:57:38 <elliott> cpressey: The metaprogramming... ok, yes, you can do any damn thing you want to a class at any point. BUT SANE PEOPLE HATE YOU DOING THIS
18:57:41 <elliott> Oh, that's just one method
18:58:27 <cpressey> it seemed to be that you are not a "real" Ruby programmer until you have metaprogrammed BECAUSE IT IS POWER POOOOOWWWWEEEEEERRRRRRRRR well ok
18:58:42 <cpressey> just getting that impression from some jerkass, probably
18:58:51 <elliott> cpressey: you talked to someone?
18:58:55 <elliott> omg you totally didn't listen to me
18:58:59 <cpressey> no, someone's site or blog or something
18:59:05 <elliott> cpressey: western rubyists
18:59:16 <elliott> apart from... people in here :P
18:59:25 <nooga> who's a western rubyist?
18:59:29 <cpressey> this was one of these people i suppose.
18:59:34 <nooga> i don't like fanboys
18:59:35 <elliott> nooga: non-japanese rubyists.
19:00:23 <cpressey> Still, even aside from those two points... it's just... really gnarly tangly and turns me off, AT PRESENT. Tomorrow, I may like it again.
19:00:31 <nooga> that say "YEAH I CAN CODE *RUBY*, I DID SEVERAL RAILS 2.X APPS, I'M SO RAD, GTFO WITH YOUR COMPUTER SCIENCE"
19:00:36 <elliott> cpressey: http://sprunge.us/afWK
19:00:38 <Vorpal> <nooga> I THINK THAT CREATORS OF BASH HAVE TOO MUCH SENSE OF HUMOUR <-- fi you say so :P
19:00:46 <elliott> cpressey: here is what sane people think about metaprogramming (zed shaw is no longer sane, but that's irrelevant)
19:00:52 <elliott> the abuse of ruby metaprogramming
19:00:52 <nooga> AND THEY STATE THAT THEY EARN SHITLOADS OF $
19:00:58 <elliott> the rafb links don't work but
19:01:07 <elliott> cpressey: the first one basically opened a class in the standard ruby logger
19:01:10 <elliott> and yanked out all formatting
19:01:16 <elliott> replacing it with a message that ignored all custom formatting
19:01:19 <elliott> and just printed out the message
19:01:45 <elliott> cpressey: that's from ruby-talk
19:01:51 <cpressey> "What's wrong with you people?"
19:02:07 <elliott> cpressey: to be honest... using ruby was awesome as fuck in 2005.
19:02:13 <elliott> nobody had raped the metaprogramming to death yet
19:02:17 <cpressey> i think that one question explains a hell of a lot about most software and languages
19:02:19 <elliott> DHH was just some asswipe with some upstart new web framework
19:02:21 <nooga> let's wait for monkey patching in 2.0
19:02:25 <elliott> why the lucky stiff was at full steam
19:02:29 <elliott> and made everything wonderful
19:02:35 <elliott> and everyone still abided by Matz Is Nice So We Are Nice
19:03:16 <elliott> cpressey: now, using ruby is probably awesome if you're in japan. and speak japanese.
19:03:25 <elliott> and ignore everyone outside the country when it comes to ruby
19:03:38 <elliott> nooga: as far as i can tell the communities are basically entirely split
19:03:44 <elliott> between the native ruby community and "everyone else"
19:03:48 <elliott> and the latter has been infected by douchebags
19:03:49 <cpressey> if you are in japan and speak japanese, you missed out on perl, i bet
19:03:55 <elliott> and is now the butt of just about any joke.
19:03:59 <cpressey> so ruby is your perl and that's kind of cool
19:04:07 <elliott> cpressey: ruby is definitely a nicer perl than perl is
19:04:15 <Vorpal> elliott, ugh about "http://sprunge.us/afWK", does "re-opening a class" mean what I think?
19:04:18 <elliott> perl - some of the most heinous insanity + smalltalk object system!
19:04:39 <nooga> but Larry Wall is so cool
19:05:01 <elliott> nooga: i dunno, i'm not down with the let's-invent-a-language-so-that-we-can-give-this-native-culture-CHRISTIANITY! shit
19:05:18 <elliott> (matz is a mormon missionary! ...but i don't think they invent languages to translate the bible into, generally)
19:05:35 <elliott> cpressey: seriously what language do people use?
19:05:43 <elliott> like if they're not using haskell, or python, or ruby, or perl
19:05:48 <elliott> and they want a scripting language i.e. not C
19:05:50 <cpressey> it would seem appropriate somehow if guido was one of those obnoxious atheist types
19:05:59 <elliott> well not hideously obnoxious
19:06:09 <elliott> i'm an obnoxious atheist type! well sort of.
19:06:15 <fizzie> They script with PHP, of course.
19:06:23 <elliott> i just don't talk to religious people usually :P
19:06:27 <cpressey> elliott: WHAT DO THEY DO? they use one of those you listed.
19:06:36 <nooga> PHP IS THE WORST LANGUAGE EVER. PERIOD
19:06:49 <cpressey> elliott: THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH
19:06:55 <elliott> nooga: immediately came up with an argument but... it had a placeholder for [language worse than PHP] and...
19:07:26 <yorick> PHP is the worst language ever!
19:07:33 <elliott> PHP is the worst language ever!
19:07:51 <cpressey> elliott: most people do not have sufficient capacity to understand why technical things are good/bad, for them to be capable of making any critical distinction between those three languages.
19:08:03 <elliott> cpressey: i said sane people.
19:08:11 <cpressey> THERE ARE NO SANE PEOPLE HAHAHAHAHA
19:08:33 <cpressey> they go "ARGH this sucks, what do people USE?"
19:08:47 <yorick> sane people are boring!
19:08:59 <elliott> yorick: i just meant non-stupid people really
19:09:05 <cpressey> they invent their own language and then they kill themselves
19:09:39 <nooga> yorick: i could swear that we've met on IRC several years ago
19:09:47 <yorick> nooga: we haven't, probably
19:09:59 <cpressey> they get a lobotomy so they can enjoy PHP.
19:10:00 <nooga> and you worked on Open Tibia then ;D
19:10:14 <yorick> nooga: I haven't, at least not that I know of
19:10:38 <nooga> is yorick a common name in a place where you live?
19:10:40 <yorick> someone else must have stolen my name before I was using it
19:10:41 <cpressey> I am fully in favour of inventing new languages, but, research and production are two different thigns, and *genuine* improvements come hard.
19:10:42 <elliott> what is it with russian people and tibia -- note: nooga is russian for the purpose of this line
19:11:16 <yorick> nooga: it has an occurence of 0.0148%
19:12:17 <cpressey> elliott: Have you ever heard of Merd or Felix?
19:12:18 <nooga> they should finally get themselves some normal alphabet
19:12:25 <elliott> cpressey: I posted merd to reddit a while back.
19:12:32 <elliott> cpressey: I WOULD TOTALLY USE THE FUCK OUT OF MERD. It is a dead project.
19:12:36 <elliott> Can't find creator on Google. Wept.
19:12:55 <elliott> "The smart upgrade from C++" oh i am totally sold.
19:13:08 <yorick> that's like google go!
19:13:10 <elliott> cpressey: oh joy, the code looks like python.
19:13:16 <elliott> that's a python section of a plugin thing
19:13:17 <cpressey> My main exposure to Felix is the time irs creator came on the Lua mailing lists and wouldn't shut up about GC.
19:13:31 <cpressey> It seems to have some good features but is somewhat Falcon-like in its EVERYTHINGNESS
19:13:47 <elliott> it's actually relatively coherently-designed
19:13:48 <cpressey> Merd seems good but too unusual in some respects to ever catch on.
19:13:51 <elliott> it's just that a lot of the features interact.
19:14:01 <elliott> merd could be basically like a regular pl
19:14:11 <elliott> half of the work was basically to make dynamic stuff just work
19:14:24 <cpressey> elliott: the spaces-influence-precedence thing is just too weird. plus, being named after shit, is not great marketing.
19:14:31 <elliott> cpressey: ok the first one
19:14:34 <yorick> static typing with polymorphism!
19:14:35 <elliott> that is literally one line in the feature list
19:14:40 <elliott> get over it, it's nowhere near certain :P
19:14:43 <elliott> and the examples don't use it
19:14:47 <elliott> cpressey: also you can always rename a language
19:14:58 <yorick> I think felix basically IS python
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19:15:06 <elliott> yorick: it has header files.
19:15:08 <zzo38> \tt\def\1{\catcode92=12\catcode123=12\catcode125=12\input\jobname\end}\1
19:15:18 <cpressey> elliott: then someone should fork merd and rename it, and we'd be talking about a different language :)
19:15:21 <elliott> rather than python code in the benchmark stuff :P
19:15:27 <elliott> cpressey: have fun with that
19:15:40 <cpressey> elliott: no no, i'm a-gonna design me OWN
19:15:52 <cpressey> (i will have fun with that too though)
19:16:08 <yorick> elliott: that's even worse :D
19:16:12 -!- augur has joined.
19:16:27 <cpressey> yeah, also Felix is far too C++-associated
19:16:55 <yorick> python just does print "blah"
19:17:05 <elliott> yorick: except when it doesn't.
19:17:15 <yorick> elliott: then you use print "blah",
19:17:20 <elliott> yorick: that appends a space
19:17:25 <elliott> don't want that? sys.stdout.write WOOOOOT
19:17:29 <yorick> elliott: then you use sys.stdout.write
19:18:50 <elliott> cpressey: wait what does that do :D
19:18:54 <elliott> yorick: #python is that way ->
19:19:16 <yorick> elliott: you mean the Twisted channel :P
19:19:29 <cpressey> i am the fungot of language syntax
19:19:29 <fungot> cpressey: or emacs-style editor i'd like to print "" array pointer "" array pointer. woof.
19:20:12 <yorick> I have to append "without using twisted" to my python questions nowadays to not get the answer "use twisted"
19:20:17 <yorick> now I get "use twisted anyways"
19:20:23 <zzo38> See if you can understand this TeX code: \tt\def\1{\catcode92=12\catcode123=12\catcode125=12\input\jobname\end}\1
19:20:23 <cpressey> i should write something in it someday so i can hate it first-hand
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19:21:19 <zzo38> cpressey: That is probably the best way to hate it I think you are correct
19:21:24 <elliott> yorick: #python is the worst channel ever
19:21:43 <yorick> sryously, what channel has "NO LOL" in its topic
19:21:45 <elliott> non-networking-related question: "How do I do this?" "Don't do that." "I want to do that." "Don't." "What should I do instead then?" "Nothing. Kill yourself."
19:22:13 <elliott> networking-related question: "How do I-" "Use Twisted." "But-" "Use Twisted." "My question i-" "Use Twisted." "I'M USING TWISTED?" "No problem then." "Actually I'm not." "Use Twisted." "FUCK YOU"
19:22:15 <cpressey> i've seen them take down lollers before, too.
19:23:29 <zzo38> Do you understand this TeX code?
19:23:48 <yorick> it looks like it does something evil
19:24:21 <zzo38> yorick: Do you mean, the TeX code?
19:24:35 <yorick> zzo38: I do mean, the TeX code.
19:24:47 <zzo38> yorick: What do you think it does?
19:24:58 <zzo38> (At first, without executing it)
19:26:28 <yorick> zzo38: I think it formats stuff as postscript :)
19:27:01 <zzo38> yorick: No. (Postscript is done by separate programs if needed)
19:28:18 <zzo38> Try it then. And then once you see what it does, try to figure out how it works.
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19:29:37 <cpressey> Tip: if your project is a library for programmers, example code on front page of project website please.
19:30:46 <yorick> cpressey: I think that would scare people away
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19:31:25 <zzo38> yorick: I will tell you. That TeX code typesets its own code.
19:31:34 <zzo38> cpressey: I suppose that can help sometimes.
19:32:34 <zzo38> (It isn't a true quine, because it uses file input)
19:33:12 <Sgeo> Dear websites/Opera: Stop making it so that Opera keeps thinking that something changed in your tab
19:35:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you know what is causing it?
19:35:48 <Sgeo> Probably some AJAXy stuff
19:35:52 <Sgeo> I have no idea
19:36:50 <zzo38> The @{ ... @} command in Enhanced CWEB acts kind of like the \[ ... \] in Falcon. The @{ ... @} are typeset as $\langle\!\{$ ... $\}\!\rangle$
19:37:28 <zzo38> And if a function xyzabc$() is defined inside of a @{ ... @} block, then whenever the identifier 'xyzabc' is encountered it will call that function
19:38:05 <coppro> Vorpal: I accidentally make -j 45
19:39:07 <coppro> which is a 100% chance of an OOM on such a huge project, because the link steps are massive and so every thread gets hung up linking a number of independent libraries and eating up all available memory
19:40:10 <zzo38> coppro: Then cancel it?
19:40:49 <coppro> zzo38: that requires getting the computer to respond to the cancel
19:40:57 <coppro> (I actually tried the OOM killer, but that didn't work :/)
19:42:55 <coppro> alt-sysrq-f should save my computer, dammit
19:43:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Error: Unable to display error message.).
19:45:10 <coppro> elliott: invoke oom killer
19:45:19 <coppro> (mnemonic: memory [f]ull)
19:45:23 <elliott> <cpressey> Tip: if your project is a library for programmers, example code on front page of project website please.
19:45:29 <elliott> <yorick> cpressey: I think that would scare people away ;; LOL
19:45:38 <elliott> "I'm a programmer looking for a library but code -- NO"
19:45:42 <coppro> tip: if you do an unrecognized sysrq, it prints a small guide
19:45:55 <elliott> coppro: only if your display is working, i imagine
19:46:20 <elliott> coppro: i can't seem to make that happen
19:46:34 <coppro> elliott: well, you actually have to make it to a vt to get that since it won't work if X has the screen
19:46:42 <elliott> coppro: yeaaaaaaaah not that easy
19:46:56 <coppro> but since the vt switch is in the kernel, that should usually be possible if it's a true oom and not a kernel hang
19:47:02 <coppro> (it may take a little while, though)
19:50:11 <Sgeo> pikhq, you're of type ()?
19:50:25 <Sgeo> Actually, that diesn't quite make sense
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19:52:43 <Sgeo> It was supposed to be since pikhq is returning but not returning anything. Then I started thinking in terms of Haskell. But there, return means something utterly different
19:55:37 <pikhq> Clearly I'm of type m () for some monad m.
20:01:51 <elliott> cpressey: pikhq: proposal: log-structured file system, except here log means actual log
20:04:00 <pikhq> How... Does that work?
20:04:36 <elliott> pikhq: that's for me to not know and you to invent.
20:04:47 <elliott> maybe instead of a binary tree
20:05:11 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:05:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:08:45 -!- quintopia has changed nick to mibquint.
20:08:55 -!- mibquint has changed nick to quintopia.
20:09:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yor the mourt I woarked in.
20:11:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ik it pins ont fleur. Crik tek book o dee la. "PASTEUR".
20:11:50 <fizzie> Value-added tax of value-added taxness.
20:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, please bring some sanity into this conversation.
20:12:12 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: problem solved. :d i had a q-tip, i could get ' messages posted per hour' graphs, i'm sure that'd have got you noticed. we had to manipulate huge lists of quantifier logic _with our hands_!
20:12:42 <cpressey> our beautiful, beautiful hands!
20:14:30 -!- wareya has joined.
20:14:39 <elliott> Five yeers go, past telemetry. Castrate orchids, saidded he. Waltz the fourt I groned in.
20:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, I have a week's worth of webcomics to rake through.
20:16:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: where've you been?
20:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I am informed that broadband here has to be attained through phone lines, if at all.
20:18:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, uh. Same here.
20:18:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wait "here"
20:19:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:20:50 <fizzie> Ireland, land of the irate.
20:21:27 <quintopia> fungot, give them some fiber please
20:21:28 <fungot> quintopia: i like to pretend i'm not)
20:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm surrounded by deadzones for cellular internet, let alone fibre.
20:21:44 <elliott> "Unicode 6.0 adds 2,088 new characters. These include 63 Emoticons, important for use in text messages"
20:21:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: GSM should work anywhere.
20:22:08 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It might be patented by someone; it sounds so obvious, and isn't that one of the properties of patentable things?
20:22:08 <elliott> And don't say it's not sufficient; it was my main internet connection for months. You know why.
20:22:08 <quintopia> I HOPE ONE OF THEM IS A THUMBS-UP EMOTICON
20:22:20 <quintopia> BECAUSE THAT LACKS A SATISFACTORY ONE-LINE ASCII REPRESENTATION
20:22:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, the borrowed iPhone I had sporadic access to cut out entirely a fairly short distance from where I am now.
20:23:10 <elliott> http://everything2.com/title/Unicode+6.0
20:23:23 <cpressey> PHANTOM HOOVER ARE YOU AWARE THAT TODAY IS INTERNATIONAL CAPSLOCK DAY
20:23:30 <elliott> quintopia: I occasionally use "(Y)" after the Windows Live (eurgh, but...) shortcut for it.
20:23:37 <fizzie> I am doing this internet with the three-and-a-half G. At http://altpary.org/2010/ ({shame,use}less plug; useless since no-one's probably going to come and fly here on such short notice.)
20:23:50 <cpressey> ALSO I AM MAKING IT A PERSONAL OMIT ALL PUNCTUATION DAY BUT YOU NEEDNT FEEL PRESSURE TO OBSERVE THAT PART
20:24:15 <fizzie> I TYPO; altparty.org, not -pary.
20:24:28 <quintopia> elliott: me too, but i confused Gregor that way
20:25:45 <fizzie> ^I^N^T^E^R^N^A^T^I^O^N^A^L ^C^T^R^L ^D^A^Y
20:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, wait, Finland seriously has a space travel party?
20:26:05 <elliott> Audacity question! Anyone know how to deamplify (deplify?) some audio by 75%?
20:26:11 <elliott> That is, make the volume 25% of what it is now.
20:26:20 <elliott> <fizzie> I am doing this internet with the three-and-a-half G. At http://altpary.org/2010/ ({shame,use}less plug; useless since no-one's probably going to come and fly here on such short notice.)
20:26:30 <elliott> Wait it's not an alternative pary?
20:26:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's a new theme every year; last year's was cyberpunksity or some-such.
20:27:05 <elliott> The one before that was sex bots and WOW was attendance high.
20:27:12 <quintopia> elliott: the standard amplify function does that IIRC
20:27:22 <elliott> quintopia: i'm not sure what dB i want to be putting in, though
20:27:40 <elliott> quintopia: in fact it doesn't even let me amplify 0, the maximum is -0.4 to get it to peak at 0
20:27:49 <elliott> as one would assume that it's impossible to have something *above* clipping
20:27:58 <elliott> and thus 0 amplification should always work and be a nop
20:29:02 <quintopia> you should be able to calculate the value
20:29:05 <elliott> quintopia: but the -0.4 thing
20:29:44 <elliott> fizzie: re 88.2 KHz, lulz material: "Yeah, but for certain types of music 88.2khz is a tighter sound then 96khz(which is at times too loose). Its almost like the difference betweeen 44.1khz and 98khz."
20:29:54 <elliott> quintopia: <elliott> quintopia: in fact it doesn't even let me amplify 0, the maximum is -0.4 to get it to peak at 0 <elliott> which is rather odd <elliott> as one would assume that it's impossible to have something *above* clipping <elliott> and thus 0 amplification should always work and be a nop
20:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I had a dream a few days ago wherein Sarah Palin held my family hostage.
20:30:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no dream, my friend. no dream
20:30:26 <quintopia> elliott: i read that and it still makes no sense
20:30:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT DID SHE DEMAND
20:30:54 <fizzie> elliott: Right, it's "tighter".
20:31:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And that I desperately wanted to get on the internet to see what the general reaction was.
20:31:16 <elliott> fizzie: "I go for the best 'capture I can, and I can hear the benifit of 96k converted material that has been SRCed down to 44.1"
20:31:50 <elliott> fizzie: Next line: "That old 82.2 to 44.1 theory could be a digital myth nowadays....", speaking of myths...
20:32:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I have also come to the conclusion that Freespace 2 stores its config somewhere in the luminiferous æther.
20:34:42 <quintopia> i have a portal to there in my bedroom
20:34:57 <quintopia> you can come use it for 25 plus airfare
20:35:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: googling suggests the source is available
20:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool. Can you get rid of my screwed up HUD settings for me?
20:35:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Reading the source will definitely work...
20:35:52 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: strace | grep open.
20:35:53 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: I have to remain on the outside to tweak the machinery and keep the portal stable. If I go in, it'll collapse and I'll be stuck there.
20:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> a) fs2_open also needs to be checked; b) I'm utterly awful at all source diving.
20:36:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, I've nuked .fs2_open, which is where save files and some other config is kept.
20:36:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $ grep -ri config .
20:37:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe it's in the WINDOWS REGISTRY.
20:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> And I've tried running it with a different user, in a different directory, with only hardlinks to the executable and the data files.
20:37:29 <elliott> quintopia: ok, now how do i merge tracks :P
20:37:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: obviously it modifies its own binary
20:38:08 <evincar> elliott: You can only merge all tracks in the project by selecting "mix and render".
20:38:32 <elliott> evincar: Well, that... yes... makes sense. :P
20:38:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: check the binary permissions :P
20:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Hang on, I'll recompile, then use the binary from that.
20:39:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dude it... no, it doesn't
20:40:49 <fizzie> Your FACE is being facetious.
20:42:35 <quintopia> elliott: select both, and choose "quick mix" off like. . .the edit menu?
20:43:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what was the Very Important Email?
20:44:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron
20:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh, just that I was interested in a suggestion he'd made on the dead forums.
20:47:19 <elliott> evincar: quintopia: Okay, less silly new question: I have four 44.1 kHz, 32-bit tracks that are... well not quite clipping but almost. Can I turn these into one 128 kHz track in Audacity?
20:47:28 <elliott> Then I can just convert it down, solving my problems.
20:47:57 <quintopia> it's probably capable of resampling, but i couldn't tell you how
20:48:11 <fizzie> I don't see how changing the samplin rate would help in amplitude clipping, though.
20:48:31 <elliott> I *may* be mixing up everything because I'm dumb.
20:48:37 <elliott> evincar: quintopia: Okay, less silly new question: I have four 44.1 kHz, 32-bit tracks that are... well not quite clipping but almost. Can I turn these into one 128-bit track in Audacity?
20:49:08 <evincar> elliott: You might be able to copy them into a new project and just change the project rate in the bottom toolbar.
20:49:18 <pikhq> elliott: BitTorrent is definitely the best way to watch TV.
20:49:19 <elliott> evincar: How does that help me mix them into one 128-bit track?
20:49:37 <quintopia> oh i think evincar's plan could work
20:50:37 <elliott> is definitely the best way to watch TV.
20:50:46 <evincar> ...well, disregard my statement, which was in response to your use of sampling rate when you meant sample size...
20:50:46 <fizzie> You just need two more bits for clipping problems; anyway, I would think any bit-depth conversion would scale the amplitudes, otherwise it's a bit silly.
20:51:19 <fizzie> Doesn't it have any sort of mix-and-divide thing? Pre-deampliying them will reduce precision, after all.
20:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it only me who is slightly depressed by the fact that he will never be as cool as DMM?
20:51:49 <fizzie> I think I'll unparticipate the discussion since I don't have Audacity to play with right now.
20:51:54 <elliott> <fizzie> Doesn't it have any sort of mix-and-divide thing? Pre-deampliying them will reduce precision, after all.
20:51:57 <elliott> that's why i don't want to do that
20:52:02 <pikhq> elliott: Well played.
20:52:07 <elliott> copy the data exactly into a 128-bit thing
20:52:19 <elliott> mix it all, since they all fit into 32-bit there's no lossinessery
20:52:23 <elliott> then just sample-convert that down
20:52:31 <fizzie> elliott: If you're summin them, you just need a 34-bit thing.
20:53:05 <elliott> fizzie: "16-bit PCM, 24-bit PCM, 32-bit float".
20:53:09 <elliott> That's some mighty support there.
20:53:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm -INT_MIN is undefined in C, isn't it? Assuming no tricks such as first casting the value to a larger integer type.
20:53:45 <elliott> quintopia: evincar: You two, figure it out. :P
20:53:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, not necessarily, but often, yes.
20:54:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, on my machine it seems like -INT_MIN == INT_MIN, which is quite reasonable, but here I want somewhat portable
20:55:08 <evincar> Vorpal: That's only guaranteed to work for unsigned types. Signed overflow behaviour is implementation-defined.
20:55:27 <evincar> unsigned int i = INT_MIN; i = -i; i == INT_MIN;
20:56:01 <Vorpal> evincar, hm good point
20:56:19 <Vorpal> evincar, also on one-complement -INT_MIN would be well defined wouldn't it?
20:56:24 <fizzie> You could go with MAX = min((unsigned)INT_MIN, (unsigned)INT_MAX), that way I think both MAX and -MAX will fit in an int.
20:56:53 <fizzie> Uh, with some fiddling, but anyway.
20:57:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, what I'm trying to get around is that abs(INT_MIN) is *undefined*, that is getting around it without complicating the code quite a bit
20:59:16 <elliott> evincar. How do I does it.
20:59:46 <fizzie> Was it so that C99 mandated the signed arithmetic is no longer undefined, just implementation-defined out of the three common alternatives? (I might misremember.)
20:59:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw it seems that for llabs(), gcc on x86-64 basically compiles the code to: llabs(n) = (n >> 0x3f) - (n ^ (n >> 0x3f)); (but using several registers avoiding repeating the same operation) if I "reverse engineered" the assembler output correctly.
20:59:53 <Vorpal> which looks quite insane
21:00:09 <Gregor> What's this hiring fiasco? :P
21:00:34 <evincar> I give Gregor a better offer.
21:01:12 <elliott> Gregor: How do I mix shit in audacity properly.
21:01:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...w...why
21:01:40 <elliott> You can repair your relationship
21:01:46 <Gregor> elliott: Make sure you get the right consistency of shit, and use a large spoon.
21:02:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for doing what? :)
21:02:06 <pikhq> I hire my cell phone.
21:02:32 <pikhq> My cell phone hires Phantom_Hoover.
21:02:56 <evincar> elliott: Why, prithee, do you think you need 128-bit samples in the first place?
21:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> evincar, yours not to question why, yours to mix shit.
21:03:33 <fizzie> Assuming that was true, you could then in C99 do (x < -INT_MAX ? INT_MAX : abs(x)) to get a working "clipped" abs, since -INT_MAX is okay in all three of {twos-complement, ones-complement, sign-magnitude}. If that's what you want; you can't much get around the fact that there might not be a number big enough.
21:03:37 <evincar> And 32-bit isn't because...your audio is already clipped?
21:04:12 <evincar> Mixing several non-clipped samples won't result in clipping. Samples aren't mixed by addition. :P
21:04:42 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:05:13 <fizzie> How are they mixed, then, if not additively? I mean, does it clip the amplitudes of one track to half when I mix that and silence?
21:05:14 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know, I think I'm going to keep this 480p24 video of Elephants Dream. It's just wonderful. :)
21:05:32 <pikhq> Aaand screw the 1080p.
21:05:35 <elliott> pikhq: Strangely, while the avi played fine, I could not get flac in in any way that would play properly.
21:05:41 <elliott> pikhq: .mkv made it laaag like hell.
21:05:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually, my code works fine as long abs(INT_MIN) isn't 0 or 1
21:05:55 <pikhq> elliott: I had that problem yesterday. *Today*, it "just worked".
21:05:55 <elliott> iirc it was desynced when i tried to mux the avi into another avi with it
21:06:01 <elliott> also had to manually specify flac while playing it
21:06:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, but since it is undefined it *could* be that of course
21:06:12 <elliott> mkv playback seems to be too slow here
21:06:25 <elliott> every so often i- t doesn't g- o so fa- st
21:06:30 <pikhq> Now to do Big Buck Bunny.
21:06:39 <elliott> pikhq: why not do a movie anyone would actually want to watch
21:06:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Can you rely on C99 there? You could check if it has that guarantee I mentioned. *Something* had it.
21:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: do Big Buck Bunny in 1080p only
21:07:07 <pikhq> Okay, okay, "Sita Sings the Blues", which is a feature-length animated film that apparently critics loved.
21:07:11 <elliott> pikhq: no point settling for less
21:07:17 <elliott> I only know of it thanks to Karl Fogel.
21:07:33 <elliott> pikhq: Its creator is now a dedicated anti-copyright person :)
21:07:47 <elliott> pikhq: And, uh, totally do it in 1080p+FLAC.
21:07:55 <elliott> No seriously, buy more disk.
21:08:01 <pikhq> elliott: The problem is that I can't *watch* the 1080p.
21:08:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, C99 says that abs(INT_MIN) has undefined *behaviour*. Which is even worse than saying that the return value is undefined. And atm I'm searching for what C99 says about -INT_MIN
21:08:06 <pikhq> As in I can't *play it back*.
21:08:45 <elliott> pikhq: http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-20024741711964_2122_6228207 Anorexia -- discuss
21:08:58 <elliott> (Advertisement for Sita Sings the Blues DVD.)
21:09:11 <elliott> Those eyes are... uh, yeah.
21:09:21 <elliott> (Those proportions are............. what.)
21:09:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:09:39 <elliott> cpressey: I am now extremely tempted to do a comparative study of a few languages by implementing a simple netcat in each.
21:09:44 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, I'll compromise. 720p.
21:09:49 <elliott> cpressey: Connect, listen, and -e.
21:09:50 <pikhq> I can probably watch the 720p version.
21:10:06 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, uh, maybe UDP too. Maybe.
21:10:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, C99 at least says you have to use one of "sign and magnitude", "two's complement" and "ones' complement"
21:11:20 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently Ebert liked Sita a lot.
21:11:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: If it has that signed-arithmetic guarantee, you could just use (x < 0 ? -x : x) instead of abs(x), I think it should be okay for all those three in theory. Except that I think it still is allowed to trap on signed-overflow, too. Can't quite recall.
21:11:35 <pikhq> elliott: Which is at least somewhat promising.
21:11:46 <elliott> "It hardly ever happens this way. I get a DVD in the mail. I'm told it's an animated film directed by "a girl from Urbana." That's my home town. It is titled "Sita Sings the Blues." I know nothing about it, and the plot description on IMDb is not exactly a barn-burner: An animated version of the epic Indian tale of Ramayana set to the 1920's jazz vocals of Annette Hanshaw. Uh, huh. I carefully file it
21:11:46 <elliott> with other movies I will watch when they introduce the 8-day week."
21:11:55 <elliott> pikhq: Only as a blog post though.
21:13:00 -!- wareya has joined.
21:13:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, it says that it is implementation-defined for sign+magnitude and twocomp if "sign bit 1 and all value bits zero" is a trap value
21:13:41 <elliott> pikhq: Well *I'm* going to download the 1080p.
21:13:48 * elliott rms all the elephants stuff
21:14:26 <pikhq> elliott: I just rm'd all but the 480p version of that. I actually somewhat *like* Elephants Dream...
21:14:49 <elliott> pikhq: I haven't watched the whole thing, but -- when I was skipping around my encode -- the voice actors *suck*.
21:14:55 <elliott> Srsly, total mismatch with both their looks.
21:14:58 <pikhq> That's the largest problem with it.
21:15:06 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/wiki/index.php?title=SitaSites Can you tell me which one you grabbed?
21:15:11 <pikhq> Aside from it being just fucking weird. :P
21:15:14 <elliott> "1920x1080p "master" version (200GB 24fps, 35mm film-quality uncompressed Quicktime .mov)"
21:15:17 <elliott> That sounds sort of like it.
21:15:24 <pikhq> elliott: http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/1080p/sita_sings_the_blues_1080p24.y4m.xz That's the one you want.
21:15:28 <elliott> "1080p / FLAC (original video with FLAC audio in MKV container)"
21:15:48 <elliott> pikhq: Probably not compressed though.
21:15:56 <elliott> pikhq: Also, no I do not want HTTP thank you.
21:16:08 <elliott> cpressey: Good idea wrt netcat?
21:16:32 <pikhq> elliott: A "mere" 31G.
21:16:39 <elliott> pikhq: The .mov is 200 GiB.
21:16:46 <elliott> pikhq: Are you suer it's uncompressed?
21:16:53 <fizzie> Heh, MATLAB on the N900 looks for some reason *really weird*. (X forward over 3G, so also *really slow*, but anyway.)
21:16:53 <pikhq> elliott: It is compressed. With xz.
21:17:06 <elliott> fizzie: Screeny! Can you take them?
21:17:07 <pikhq> Uncompressed, that gets out to 341GB.
21:17:14 <elliott> pikhq: Woot. I totally have that disc space.
21:17:18 <elliott> pikhq: Actually I physically *don't*.
21:17:29 <pikhq> LZMA works astonishingly well with video content. :)
21:17:32 <elliott> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
21:17:32 <elliott> /dev/sda1 220G 12G 198G 6% /
21:17:43 <pikhq> 720p one is 152GB.
21:17:52 <elliott> pikhq: 720p is for underachievers
21:18:01 <elliott> pikhq: Can I have an ssh account on your box pl0x :P
21:18:25 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, okay, I'll download the 1080p one and downscale from there.
21:18:36 <elliott> pikhq: Aww, but I want to run the fun commands of fun funness.
21:18:40 <fizzie> elliott: Gaa, I just closed it.
21:18:41 <elliott> You can't beat fun funness.
21:19:11 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, well, just be kind to my baby.
21:19:37 <elliott> That's the way / uh-huh, uh-huh / I like it / uh-huh, uh-huh. So said a great poet.
21:19:40 <pikhq> I think I'll grab the one from archive.org because that's a much nicer server.
21:20:03 <evincar> Hey guys, eso thing. I was thinking of writing a "BFVM" (Brainfuck Virtual Machine) that could function as a target for higher-level languages, and whose bytecode could be disassembled/decompiled into vanilla BF. What do you think?
21:20:09 <elliott> pikhq: It appears that the FLAC audio is not available separately.
21:20:17 <elliott> evincar: Do it and we'll comment :P
21:20:27 <evincar> elliott: Kay. Do I get a stack?
21:20:28 <pikhq> Erm, no, that's gigantic.
21:20:32 <pikhq> elliott: http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/flac/SSTB/
21:20:48 <elliott> pikhq: the 200 gig one is .mov :P
21:21:03 <elliott> pikhq: 1080p, 5.1 FLAC, mkv.
21:21:09 <pikhq> Yes, but this is 31G. Bit more work to get it sane, but totally doable.
21:21:13 <elliott> pikhq: Sure, neither of us can watch that, but...
21:21:22 <elliott> pikhq: Just do it and we'll gaze in awe.
21:21:23 <pikhq> It'll be a couple days.
21:21:31 <elliott> pikhq: To... download 31 gigs?
21:21:34 <evincar> elliott: Life (read: interfacing with C libraries) would be easier if I had a stack.
21:21:43 <elliott> evincar: Sure, uh, do that then.
21:21:56 <pikhq> elliott: From a single server that appears to have limited upload bandwidth.
21:22:05 <evincar> elliott: Bah, I'll figure something out.
21:22:06 <elliott> pikhq:Wait, cancel your download a sec.
21:22:12 <pikhq> elliott: The archive.org one would be worse.
21:22:22 <elliott> pikhq: Tell me when, I have a point to make :P
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21:22:52 <elliott> pikhq: 0% [ ] 9,723,863 749K/s eta 13h 37m
21:22:57 <elliott> I got >800 KiB/s before, too.
21:23:11 <elliott> pikhq: Or did you mean day in the half-a-day sense? :P
21:23:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We're downloading a feature-length animated film.
21:23:26 <elliott> ...Lossless full 1080p HD.
21:23:31 <pikhq> Okay, that's better.
21:23:37 <elliott> ...Then he's going to download the 5.1 surround sound soundtrack.
21:23:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then he's going to losslessly compress the video with x264.
21:24:00 <elliott> And mux that, with the FLAC, into a final .mkv.
21:24:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's evincar...
21:24:15 <elliott> pikhq: Now we get to predict the final size.
21:24:27 <elliott> pikhq: You will get a better ratio than with Elephants Dream because, well, 2D animation with simple shading.
21:24:34 <elliott> pikhq: But! 5.1 soundtrack.
21:24:45 <elliott> pikhq: I predict... well, 100 GiB? You think?
21:25:10 <elliott> pikhq: "Yes, I know bad bad people can also use the .fla files for dastardly deeds (the dreaded hypothetical “Nazi Porn Version” that always comes up at Q&A’s). Bad bad people can use our shared Language and Technology for evil too, but I’m not going to constipate culture out of fear of imaginary worst-case scenarios. I’m confident much more good will come from this than bad, and that’s mot
21:25:11 <elliott> ivation enough for me. It’s Free Culture, baby. If programmers can tinker with the Free Software’s source code, artists can tinker with Sita Sings the Blues‘ source files." <-- it's hard to believe these words don't come from a programmer
21:25:24 <elliott> pikhq: She has posted the Flash authoring files.
21:25:31 <elliott> pikhq: What I am saying is: You could render this in Ultra HD.
21:25:55 <elliott> pikhq: You could render it... in vector.
21:26:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "the dreaded hypothetical “Nazi Porn Version” that always comes up at Q&A’s"
21:26:35 <fizzie> elliott: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/n900lab.png -- not much N900-specific there.
21:27:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, that's actually considered an argument?
21:27:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently :P
21:27:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Amongst morons, yes.
21:28:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, eh, the last step of that "reverse engineering" ended up wrong. Should be (n ^ (n >> 0x3f)) - (n >> 0x3f)
21:30:57 <evincar> Whelp, off I get. May be back later, maybe with a hacked-together interesting project.
21:32:01 <elliott> fizzie: Is that small text legible at all?
21:32:05 <elliott> fizzie: Antialiasing might help...
21:32:14 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: Toodles.).
21:32:45 <elliott> pikhq: So, you're doing 1080p/5.1FLAC/MKV, right? I'll do it with 480p because... my computer sucks.
21:34:10 <fizzie> The text is larger than my terminal font.
21:34:20 <fizzie> Of course it's pretty small still.
21:34:36 <fizzie> But at least you can fit a reasonable amount of stuff in.
21:34:56 <elliott> park_joy_2160p.y4m07-May-2009 13:555.8G
21:35:06 <elliott> fizzie: You must be going blind with a terminal font that tiny.
21:36:10 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: I am now extremely tempted to do a comparative study of a few languages by implementing a simple netcat in each.
21:36:27 <cpressey> elliott: some dude wrote a lame one in 3, don't know if you saw that link
21:36:34 <elliott> cpressey: that's what inspired me
21:36:44 <elliott> it showcases the stdlib quite well
21:36:44 <cpressey> and it was like pyton, ruby, and... i never found out what #3 was
21:36:53 <elliott> it showcases the basic way you express stuff in the language
21:36:57 <elliott> it shows its IO capabilities
21:37:05 <elliott> with -e it shows a taste of what it's like to interact with the rest of the system
21:37:10 <elliott> and in the middle of it all
21:37:13 <elliott> there's a little bit of logic too
21:37:22 <cpressey> yes, it's an IO-lib exerciser (more so than the other parts)
21:37:26 <elliott> on top of that, it's relatively trivial
21:37:38 <elliott> cpressey: right. but a bit more than that too
21:37:46 <elliott> i think it'd be an interesting portrait of languages
21:37:51 <elliott> cpressey: python's will be hideous :)
21:38:02 <cpressey> i've already done netcat -e in python :)
21:38:26 <elliott> cpressey: in the same way that python is not _too_ bad
21:38:46 <fizzie> elliott: Blindness is a small price to pay for a 99x24 terminal. Besides, the screen is 76x46 mm, so the characters are like 0.8 x 1.6 mm huge.
21:38:55 <cpressey> ruby would also be kind of nice, assuming its IO.popen is ok (it _seems_ ok from what i could make out)
21:39:01 <fizzie> That's over a millimetre.
21:39:07 <Vorpal> <fizzie> elliott: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/n900lab.png -- not much N900-specific there. <-- hm, isn't matlab closed source and windows only?
21:39:09 <elliott> cpressey: ruby would excel at this, yeah
21:39:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Closed but very definitely not Windows.
21:39:39 <cpressey> elliott: i actually am thinking of writing, um, a 'polycat' in Ruby now
21:39:40 <pikhq> elliott: y4m is a raw video format, "YUV4MPEG". It's essentially a headered dump of raw YUV video.
21:39:44 <elliott> cpressey: it has nice argument parsers (even the stdlib one is nice), its socket stuff is an actual abstraction rather than BSD Sockets: The Binding!, and popen is trivial
21:40:06 <pikhq> It's the preferred input format for many encoders.
21:40:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, so they made a version for arm heh?
21:40:20 <cpressey> polycat: run a set of programs and pipe all their outputs together to all their inputs
21:40:36 <elliott> cpressey: i think... that we're sliding, slipperily (say that ten times fast), into the dreaded slope of becoming ruby users.
21:40:53 <elliott> this will also mark the end of us being able to get non-douchebaggy help whenever we have trouble. god save us
21:40:58 <cpressey> elliott: well... you know, the ruby programmers here are all westerners, and for the most part they're OK
21:41:09 <elliott> cpressey: YOU WORK IN AN AGILE COMPANY
21:41:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: "(X forward over 3G, so also *really slow*, but anyway.)
21:42:55 <cpressey> elliott: I'm not sure I follow your logic. Getting help from the "community" of C++ programmers, for example... is this any less douchebaggy?
21:43:45 <cpressey> Maybe the community of academic functional programmers is nicer, overall, I grant.
21:44:20 <fizzie> They currently sell five versions: Win 32/64, Linux x86 32/64 and OS X on x86-64. I think they used to have some others too, earlier.
21:44:22 <cpressey> except for the occasional exploded bloodsucker
21:44:49 <elliott> cpressey: You have never seen #ruby-lang. (NEVER ENTER THIS CHANNEL)
21:45:04 <elliott> The op is a massive douchebag, most people there are idiotic pseudo-hipster Mac-using Starbucks-visiting Rails users.
21:45:12 <elliott> The rest are snobbish elitists who hate questions.
21:45:25 <fizzie> "Mathworks will be dropping support for Matlab on Solaris (SPARC) as
21:45:25 <fizzie> of March 2010. There is currently no Solaris (x86) version, and our
21:45:25 <fizzie> Matworks rep says that "there aren't any near term plans" to support x86
21:45:25 <fizzie> Solaris in the future (although he says he is pushing for this).
21:45:31 <elliott> And there's a lot of "DON'T DO THAT, WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DO".
21:45:48 <elliott> cpressey: *Anyway* the option parser is really nice:
21:45:49 <cpressey> elliott: ah, so you are referring more to Ruby per se, than to agile in general. k yea
21:46:04 <elliott> cpressey: http://pastie.org/pastes/1241641/text?key=1h4pq5brnaq4kdy0u9j8a
21:46:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: just don't.
21:46:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: seriously.
21:46:33 <cpressey> Agile is largely wanky too, but... also, the company I work for has a less wanky culture than most (one of the reasons I accepted a job here.)
21:46:36 <elliott> cpressey: It can also do keyword completion, where you can provide the shortest ambiguous argument, arguments can take lists, there's even support for octal:
21:46:38 <elliott> opts.on("-F", "--irs [OCTAL]", OptionParser::OctalInteger,
21:46:38 <elliott> "Specify record separator (default \\0)") do |rs|
21:46:43 <elliott> opts.on("-t", "--time [TIME]", Time, "Begin execution at given time") do |time|
21:46:56 <elliott> really, really nice option parser.
21:47:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: to stop you :P
21:47:08 <cpressey> elliott: Yeah, it looks decent (the one in Python isn't _too_ bad, heheh.)
21:47:21 <elliott> cpressey: oops i missed a bit
21:47:39 <elliott> (obviously it returns the new optionparser, which you then tell to parse-destructively-using-ARGV.)
21:47:46 <elliott> (ARGV is then all your non-option arguments.)
21:48:45 <elliott> cpressey: i would totally point you to all of why's stuff ever now but RIP :(
21:50:40 <fizzie> This smoke-machine smoke smells like popcorn. Disquieting.
21:53:17 <elliott> cpressey: well he's not dead. but, as good as, internet-wise.
21:53:17 <cpressey> fizzie: where are you that you are next to a smoke machine AND on irc? this is disquieting.
21:53:20 <elliott> cpressey: just deleted everything last year
21:53:53 <cpressey> elliott: yeah, i heard. was his stuff open source and was any of it saved before it went poof?
21:54:02 <elliott> cpressey: http://viewsourcecode.org/why/
21:54:07 <elliott> this is like 90% of everything why has ever done.
21:54:16 <cpressey> i know he wrote e.g. the yaml libs for ruby
21:54:34 <elliott> It was also, uh, Perl and PHP and just about everything.
21:54:53 <elliott> cpressey: He did *way* more interesting stuff than that though.
21:55:11 <elliott> He was really great at getting people interested in programming... and a lot of code-art stuff too as of recently.
21:55:18 <cpressey> interesting. he's known for the ruby mostly it seems
21:55:27 <elliott> Plus, uh, language designer: http://runciter.net/potion/
21:55:37 <elliott> cpressey: I mean... yes, he was very much in the "ruby community".
21:55:42 <elliott> but... no, he did a lot of non-ruby stuff
21:55:43 <fizzie> cpressey: I just advertised my place: http://altparty.org/2010/ -- hang on, let me a picture.
21:55:45 <elliott> and he was *never* a "rubyist"
21:55:53 <elliott> it was always him using ruby because he likes it, not because it's ruby
21:56:46 <elliott> cpressey: his last blog (hackety.org) actually had not very much ruby stuff on it
21:56:53 <elliott> web.archive.org only has up to 2008 though...
21:57:08 <elliott> cpressey: oh yes, he wrote a hideous half-working ruby -> python bytecode compiler.
21:57:30 <elliott> but really he did an awful lot of cool stuff.
21:58:20 <elliott> cpressey: He posted about Lua once or twice! Also DragonFly was one of his main OSes. :P
21:58:25 <elliott> (The other being Ubuntu and occasionally OS X.)
21:58:37 <fizzie> cpressey: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/i-smoke.jpg -- see, smoke.
21:58:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well... no. He was lamenting how little programming is appreciated once or twice on Twitter before he disappeared.
21:58:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, what association do you have with this altparty thing?
21:58:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he's there.
21:59:15 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I dabble with demosceneres+ occasionally, but not much more.
21:59:19 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, and he also made an album which was a soundtrack to a book about cartoon foxes^W^WRuby.
21:59:53 <elliott> maybe he actually is jack black
21:59:57 <elliott> rather than just looking like jack black
22:01:20 <elliott> and to close this rambling, i quote him
22:01:21 <elliott> "I appreciate your remarks, but I have a hard time believing that anyone would like my art. I will definitely die without recognition, and few will ever see the work I do. But I like it that way a lot!! One of the worst things a person can get in life is recognition. But a scalp rash is very, very bad as well. I have had some serious scalp rashes, and I also have thrown up blood quite a few times along
22:02:01 <cpressey> i wanted to write a soundtrack to a book once.. and detractors told me it was impossible. bah!
22:02:13 <elliott> cpressey: It's a damn good album too!
22:02:19 <elliott> Well, damn good if you're crazy.
22:02:53 <cpressey> fizzie: for some reason when you first posted that link i thought it was for a political party.
22:03:18 <fizzie> cpressey: Oh, well, in that case I can see why it was a confuse.
22:03:43 <cpressey> elliott: i've made a mental note to check out what remains of his work
22:03:53 <elliott> cpressey: that's all of his work basically. but... you don't get the presentation
22:04:18 <elliott> cpressey: like... reading Alice in Wonderland in Helvetica with a blank book cover and no illustrations
22:04:27 <elliott> or an Infocom adventure game, sans feelies
22:04:42 <elliott> cpressey: http://whymirror.github.com/ has a list of all the code projects and summaries
22:04:58 <cpressey> elliott: started looking at that, found it impossible to navigate.
22:05:02 <fizzie> I don't mind the smoke, but the smell makes me suspect someone's been using the fog-machine as an improvised popcorn device. (No idea how, I don't think it generates that much heat anyway.)
22:05:32 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:05:37 <elliott> cpressey: It is terribly sad, since he had a lot of actually-developed, ongoing, really used or with real potential projects that were really interesting.
22:06:15 <elliott> maybe one day he'll come back.
22:06:15 -!- nooga has joined.
22:07:08 <elliott> cpressey: Anyway I'm totally going to make Network Cat: A Comparative Study of Several Dynamic Languages.
22:07:23 <elliott> nooga: I actually mean why :P
22:08:38 <fizzie> The Networked Cat: Or, Why Should We Welcome Our New Feline Overlords. (A thesis title suggestion.)
22:10:19 * elliott realises that the part identity of why's wife and the identity of some of his (ex-?)coworkers are known.
22:10:35 <elliott> Thing to do sometime: Contact one of them. Uhh, the latter.
22:11:55 <elliott> I mean, it *is* theoretically possible he killed himself.
22:18:22 <pikhq> elliott: Apparently people have criticised "Sita Sings the Blues" on the basis that it's racist because a white woman did it.
22:18:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://web.archive.org/web/20050319044407/misstrudy.hobix.com/
22:18:45 <elliott> i sure hope the about page is archived
22:18:51 <elliott> "I'm a bassist in a band, The Child Who Was A Keyhole, with my husband, Jonathan."
22:19:18 <elliott> wait wait we DO know his wife's name
22:19:23 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not entirely sure how it's racist for someone to use another culture's legend for a story, but apparently it is.
22:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, wasn't there a guy called Jonathan who was alleged to be Why?
22:19:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes. turns out it is almost *certainly* him
22:20:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it is theoretically possible that why and jonathan collaborated on the same project at work, and why used jonathan's email address a lot, and why hosted a blog for Jonathan's wife, and why designed the cover art to the only album of the band that Jonathan and Jonathan's wife were in...
22:20:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...but, uh, yeah.
22:21:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh and the band just *happens* to be completely his style.
22:21:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also jonathan just so happens to sound exactly like why
22:22:15 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Nina Paley has said that some left-wing academics have also been critical of the film, describing their position as "any white person doing a project like this is by definition racist, and it's an example of more neocolonialism."]]
22:22:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the far-left academia attracts some real crazy
22:23:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: jonathan looks a bit different to why as we know him in the photos of the band but:
22:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "Academia" seems generally to be a byword for crazy...
22:23:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, not really...
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22:24:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Definitely not in the sciences.
22:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I was excluding the sciences, mathematics, etc.
22:24:40 <elliott> so excluding half or more of academia? :P
22:25:00 <Gregor> (The best half or more)
22:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Paley: On the far left, there are some very, very privileged people in academia who have reduced all the wondrous complexities of racial relations into, "White people are racist, and non-white people are all victims of white racism." Without actually looking at the work, they've decided that any white person doing a project like this is by definition racist, and it's an example of more neocolonialism. So po
22:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> litics makes strange bedfellows -- they're in bed with the Hindutva nationalists. And nobody's seen the work! I get all this criticism, and none of it's a critique of the work.]]
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22:27:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: So, in short, people are morons.
22:28:09 <elliott> cpressey: you know what i want to do?
22:28:28 <elliott> Learn Japanese and migrate all my programming community activity other than this place and #haskell to the Japanese communities.
22:28:46 <elliott> pikhq: Here, you act as my Google Translate :P
22:29:38 <cpressey> someone(?) pulled up the site(?) of a Japanese esolanger last night(?)
22:30:01 <elliott> http://why.usesthis.com/ oh oh oh i remembered i love this
22:30:11 <elliott> on hatena diary, where seemingly every japanese programmer ever is :P
22:30:17 <cpressey> first esolanger that i can recall being from japan.
22:30:24 <elliott> "the only other software I use besides windows xp is kjöfol."
22:30:30 <cpressey> i use the term 'esolanger' loosely of course
22:30:31 <elliott> cpressey: There are... a LOT of them.
22:30:47 <elliott> cpressey: Perhaps fewer languages coming out of there but NO THERE ARE TONS.
22:31:02 <elliott> cpressey: And esoteric programming in non-esoteric languages is *even more* common there.
22:31:04 <cpressey> there is possibly less intersection/interaction with the english language esolangers then
22:31:13 <elliott> See http://golf.shinh.org/ :P
22:31:18 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:31:33 <elliott> cpressey: for the record anagolf's source code is SO NOT ANYTHING TO LOOK AT
22:31:44 <elliott> it's code written directly to the fastcgi binding
22:31:49 <elliott> plus some ... questionably amusing ... ruby
22:31:51 <cpressey> also there is this japanese concept of "useless artistic invention" that maps really closely to esolang
22:32:27 <elliott> cpressey: it's interesting how different, like, japanese *people* are and japan the place + its culture
22:32:43 <pikhq> I can't recall the term, but yeah, there certainly is.
22:32:54 <elliott> the former are just regular usually-strangely-polite people with perhaps more tendencies to the esoteric sorta stuff
22:32:58 <elliott> whereas the latter is... uh, wow.
22:33:00 <elliott> (generalising here of course)
22:33:12 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chind%C5%8Dgu
22:33:26 <pikhq> Ah, right, tinntồkù.
22:33:45 <cpressey> The Rube Goldbergism of the East, I guess.
22:33:50 <elliott> pikhq: double diacritics wat
22:34:18 <pikhq> elliott: It's necessary in my romanisation scheme for some syllables!
22:34:50 <elliott> from just japanese people on the internet i would never guess how metropolisian (is that a word? yes. it is now.) japan itself is
22:34:52 <pikhq> Such as any long vowel + voiced consonant.
22:35:10 <elliott> i wonder what drastically different cultures think about us; what are our discrepancies? :)
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22:38:49 <elliott> cpressey: i have many ideas but none of relevance!
22:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Moving large files from /tmp takes far longer than mv should...
22:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Never did I think I'd hear the word "wget" in a cinema.
22:41:53 <elliott> cpressey: hmm, how would you summarise -e prog in --help? :P
22:43:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have you ever used --help?
22:43:19 <elliott> it should be way more specific than that...
22:43:23 <elliott> "Executes <prog> on the socket", *maybe*
22:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> [[[phantomhoover@phantomhoover-laptop:~]$ dc --help (10-22 22:43)
22:45:28 <pikhq> QVOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDVM. If you're going to say it, do it right. :)
22:46:05 <cpressey> can prog be a whole fun shell syntax line? then i would call it cmd
22:47:07 <pikhq> Meanwhilst. "Around the World / Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger" is amazing.
22:47:09 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, QVODERATDEMONSTRANDVM, if you're going to be like that.
22:47:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Spaces have been around much much longer than lower-case letters or a distinction between V and U.
22:48:28 <elliott> <pikhq> Meanwhilst. "Around the World / Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger" is amazing.
22:48:30 <elliott> most inventive lyrics ever
22:48:42 <elliott> Around the world, around the world! Harder better faster stronger. Around the world, around the world!
22:49:22 <pikhq> elliott: Daft Punk doesn't really do inventive lyrics.
22:49:51 <elliott> pikhq: Case in point: http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/34775/
22:51:20 * elliott listens to "Around The World / Harder Better Faster Stronger"
22:52:02 <elliott> pikhq: I would just like to say http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/daftpunk/aroundtheworld.html
22:52:19 <pikhq> Oh, darn it, I'm not quite right. "QVOD·ERAT·DEMONSTRANDVM" would be the actual old orthography.
22:52:36 <pikhq> elliott: Well aware.
22:52:56 <pikhq> I have their discography you know!
22:53:10 <cpressey> pikhq: I prefer "Crescendolls"
22:53:11 <elliott> pikhq: Work it / make it / do it / makes us / ... / ... / ... / .... / harder / better / faster / stronger
22:53:15 <elliott> Oh the suspense in those "..."s
22:53:41 <cpressey> pikhq: I used to have that album :)
22:53:53 <pikhq> cpressey: Alive 2007?
22:54:09 <cpressey> pikhq: I dunno man, it just said "Daft Punk" on the cover.
22:54:18 <elliott> cpressey: all of their albums do that
22:54:25 <pikhq> That's not helpful. :)
22:54:35 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/Daftpunk-homework.jpg
22:54:38 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/Daft_Punk_-_Discovery.jpg
22:54:40 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0d/Humanafterall.jpg
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22:56:19 <cpressey> On a completely different note, default Maverick install on this machine, using Totem Movie Player, produces some crappy audio artefacts I don't remember hearing before.
22:56:19 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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22:57:15 <elliott> cpressey: oh i totally forgot ruby has proper && and || and !
22:57:37 -!- nooga has joined.
22:58:49 <elliott> cpressey: as in you can use those
22:58:58 <cpressey> proper in that they look like C? :)
22:59:00 <elliott> (there's actually a slight precedence difference that can be useful sometimes... but that's irrelevant)
22:59:08 <elliott> !x is sometimes a lot nicer than x
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23:01:12 -!- Zuu has joined.
23:01:59 <elliott> "Once the ad ends you'll be returned to your LiveJournal experience"
23:03:06 <Sgeo> I once decided to use LiveJournal as my private journal
23:03:23 <Sgeo> Had a paper journal and would copy stuff from there to LJ
23:03:27 <Sgeo> Then I stopped doing that
23:03:46 <Sgeo> Then, sometime after I stopped writing in the paper journal, I misplaced it
23:05:39 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:11:55 <quintopia> human after all was surprisingly good
23:12:13 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:54 <fizzie> quintopia: Sounds cannibalistic. You just ate?
23:15:25 <Gregor> More like cannibadelicious!
23:16:30 <fizzie> Putting the BALLS back to canniBALism.
23:17:21 <fizzie> (Was going to go with NIB first.)
23:18:39 <Gregor> Yes, he's fizzie: Putting the homoeroticism back into cannibalism!
23:21:52 <fizzie> Putting the ack back to back.
23:24:16 <Gregor> It only tortures you because it loves you.
23:26:27 <fizzie> "Phantom_Hoover 0, Freespace 2" is how I read that. But that might be accurate too. Or maybe Freespace's score should be higher.
23:27:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Try putting the extra-sensory perception back into FreESPace 2.
23:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I would be able to deal with crashes if they actually made any sense!
23:29:20 <fizzie> Putting the rash back into crashes. Somebody stop me!
23:29:57 <fizzie> I can't stop looking at substrings. (Ring.)
23:30:05 <cpressey> Putting the topping back in stopping fizzie.
23:30:24 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: keep smiling).
23:31:47 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:31:48 <fizzie> I was going to go with "press into cpressey", but that sounded just dirty.
23:33:08 <fizzie> It might be time for me to try to catch the 01:49am bus, it's the last sensible homeward-bound one that doesn't involve circuitousity or switching.
23:35:44 -!- Zuu has joined.
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23:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look, the currently active mod has 499 errors from simply starting up. BUT I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU WHAT THEY ARE HAHAHAHA
23:43:34 * Sgeo goes to download ooVoo
23:43:38 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:44:34 <Sgeo> Opera fails to mark files as originating from the Internet
23:45:30 <Sgeo> And because I haven't bothered to get Ubuntu on here yet
23:45:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: So does WebSplat work on Opera or not? :P
23:46:01 <Sgeo> And also I want to be 100% sure, not just 99% sure because it's the only reasonable possibility, that the HD protection thingy doesn
23:46:09 <Sgeo> 't rely on software to work
23:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't have to use Windows all of the time any more.
23:46:19 <Sgeo> Gregor, using the down key causes some dizziness
23:46:46 <Sgeo> The page scrolls down, and then snaps back up to the character
23:46:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume the "HD protection thingy" is an accelerometer linked to something to stop the disc as soon as possible.
23:47:38 <Sgeo> Something like that. But apparently it's controllable by software. It's reasonable to assume that the software just receives status and can toggle the state, but I want to be 100% sure
23:49:21 <Phantom_Hoover> As far as I can tell, when FS2 gets 499 errors, its strategy is just to say "hey, tonnes of errors have occurred!", then throw them all into the bit bucket without leaving any semblance of a log.
23:50:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:50:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's almost certainly an accelerometer hooked directly to the drive controller that *happens* to be exposed to software.
23:51:15 <pikhq> If it were actually software controlled, it is *entirely* possible for a stupid scheduler mishap to make the spindown not happen in time.
23:51:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:51:54 <zzo38> LET'S WE ARE INSANITY!!!!
23:52:27 -!- cal153 has quit.
23:53:00 <elliott> Once upon a time, DON'T DROP YOUR FUCKING LAPTOP.
23:53:14 -!- cal153 has joined.
23:53:39 <Gregor> You can drop your regular laptop.
23:53:48 <Gregor> But if you drop your fucking one, it'll hurt a LOT.
23:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Sgeo has a rare genetic disorder that causes his fingers to constantly exude butter.
23:54:12 <Sgeo> Hey ooVoo, thanks so much for sending me my password in an email
23:54:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's fantastically useful when making toast, but a curse at all other times
23:54:55 <elliott> Hey Sgeo, we really don't care that you've found yet another shitty piece of Windows/OS X-only software.
23:55:48 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I would think it's only helpful for a very small part of the toast-making process.
23:55:53 <zzo38> elliott: I corrected the problem you were having with the Enhanced CWEB. The version number is still 0.3 because it is only a minor fix (commenting out a line in "platform.h" and adding a short file "how_to_compile.txt")
23:55:55 <Gregor> Otherwise you're just risking getting butter in your toast.
23:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> [[[phantomhoover@phantomhoover-laptop:~]$ locate vp_crcs.txt (10-22 23:52)]] (there's no output)
23:56:30 <zzo38> If you have a rare genetic disorder like that then wear gloves
23:56:51 <elliott> zzo38: I have Sgeo's disorder and *also* a rare genetic disorder that causes gloves to disintegrate when they touch my hands.
23:56:54 <fizzie> The usual locate is very uninstantaneous, you know.
23:57:01 <elliott> <zzo38> elliott: I corrected the problem you were having with the Enhanced CWEB. The version number is still 0.3 because it is only a minor fix (commenting out a line in "platform.h" and adding a short file "how_to_compile.txt")
23:57:04 <elliott> which problem was that again?
23:57:58 <zzo38> elliott: What do *you* think?
23:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, regrettably, most healthcare plans do not cover digitus butyrus.
23:58:23 <elliott> zzo38: I... can I have a real answer please?
23:58:52 <zzo38> elliott: OK. It is the problem that it could not compile PicoC