00:00:05 <elliott> Gregor: Another character: http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/11/12/awinnerisyou.png
00:00:21 <Gregor> elliott: I'll just go with one character I think :P
00:00:38 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Very very few.
00:01:32 <elliott> Gregor: For bonus points, make all of them switch to the other at a random interval (randomised for each element).
00:01:34 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It means that in some sense the beneficiary is entitled to the financial benefits from DTCC.
00:01:38 <elliott> Gregor: You win! You win EPILEPSY!
00:01:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: In effect, the beneficiary is entitled to dividends.
00:02:06 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, no winning seizures :P
00:02:16 <elliott> Gregor: OMG WAIT BETTER IDEA
00:02:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Stocks pay out dividends.
00:02:20 <elliott> Gregor: Make all elements on the page move about.
00:02:26 <pikhq> At least, some do.
00:02:34 <elliott> Great job, hero! You won! The universe is falling apart.
00:03:25 <Gregor> elliott: Hmmm, this image doesn't work as well as the trophy. The trophy has the nice (dis)advantage that it's visible in the upper-left, so it even messes with small elements.
00:03:29 <Gregor> elliott: This is just black in the upper-left :(
00:03:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And if DTCC actually sold off their stocks, there'd probably be a major legal fight if the beneficiary didn't get some benefit from the sale.
00:03:41 <elliott> Gregor: With 1/2 probability on every element.
00:03:51 <elliott> YOU'RE WINNER! A WINNER IS YOU! YOU'RE WINNER!
00:03:52 <Gregor> elliott: OHHH, on every ELEMENT.
00:03:55 <pikhq> Though this legal fight wouldn't matter because the world economy would collapse.
00:04:04 <Gregor> elliott: That's actually kind of a pain, since I just used a CSS * :P
00:04:04 <pikhq> Mother-fucking collapse.
00:04:08 <Gregor> But OK, i can do that.
00:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so they can't just buy Germany if they want some sausages?
00:04:35 <pikhq> They'd just have to hand out some cash to people.
00:04:44 <pikhq> Oh, without the sausage industry collapsing?
00:04:48 <pikhq> Yeah, that'd probably collapse.
00:05:08 <pikhq> As would the entire stock market when they realise that it's all a fucking casino game and DTCC is the house.
00:06:08 <elliott> pikhq: we so need to do this
00:06:14 <Gregor> elliott: Basically whichever one document.body gets wins :(
00:06:23 <Gregor> Well, maybe that's only on this test page ... lesse.
00:06:32 <elliott> Gregor: On pages with more elements it'll be crazy.
00:07:08 <elliott> pikhq: use the DTCC to crash the economy
00:07:11 * Gregor tries it on en.wikipedia.org
00:07:18 * catseye plays WebSplat on http://www.dtcc.com/
00:07:22 <elliott> buy up as much important, expensive shit as we can
00:07:27 <elliott> until we've used all our money
00:07:35 <elliott> "Fuck you guys no stocks lol"
00:07:40 <elliott> Gregor: Yes to the multi-background?
00:07:47 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:07:59 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, however I'm going to ruin it by adding transparency to "A WINNER IS YOU" and making the text black.
00:08:03 <Gregor> To get more horrible overlap.
00:08:05 <pikhq> elliott: It's astounding how fragile everything is.
00:08:07 <Gregor> (The trophy has transparency)
00:08:16 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, BTW. Apparently DTCC's vaults are in Manhattan.
00:08:20 -!- myndzi has joined.
00:08:29 <catseye> man, if the images weren't outlined, this would be hard -- a random half of their headings are actually images.
00:08:31 <elliott> Gregor: wait wait, make it black but with a certain % of alpha :D
00:08:33 <pikhq> elliott: One crazy bastard with a nuke and all the companies stop existing.
00:08:42 <elliott> pikhq: but we could do that from within
00:08:46 <elliott> pikhq: do all that stuff, and then just burn our vault
00:08:58 <elliott> Gregor: make it like 50% opaque
00:09:16 <Gregor> It'll be crazier perfectly transparent...
00:10:15 <elliott> catseye: where's the last image
00:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but when the economy collapses, who will invent the Singularity?
00:11:14 <fizzie> "Burn the vault, or make it like 50% opaque" is how I parsed that.
00:11:39 <elliott> catseye: probably down that scrollable pane
00:11:48 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.dtcc.com/ unsolvable kthx :P
00:12:53 <elliott> Gregor: this as multiplayer would be amazing
00:13:09 <Gregor> With transparency, this = best win screen ever.
00:13:32 <pikhq> Seems that flash crashes have become a regular fixture of the stock market now...
00:14:02 <pikhq> Shit is going to be *baaaad* soon...
00:14:33 -!- augur has joined.
00:14:53 <Gregor> elliott: Observe the new win screen!
00:15:00 <elliott> Gregor: i'm trying to; i have to win first!
00:15:32 <elliott> Gregor: you know, you could give <html> and <body> different backgrounds
00:15:53 <elliott> make <html> and <body> always the two images (which is which doesn't matter; randomise it)
00:15:58 <elliott> then do the 1/2 chance for all the other elements
00:16:42 <catseye> class SharedLineOrientedBuffer # aka a SLOB!
00:16:46 <elliott> Gregor: LOL the esolangs wiki logo became two of the guy
00:16:53 <elliott> catseye: what are you doing now :P
00:16:56 <Gregor> I died on the win screen because I couldn't tell what the hell was going on X-D
00:17:03 <catseye> elliott: just trying to improve catbus
00:17:21 <elliott> catseye: that name... yeah... no
00:17:39 <catseye> but that's exactly what it is! well, ok
00:18:52 <Gregor> Let's see how well this works on my phone now :P
00:20:58 <quintopia> Gregor: AAAAAGGGHHHHHHH THAT IS AWFUL WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT
00:21:13 <elliott> Gregor: websplat + http://mrdoob.com/projects/chromeexperiments/google_gravity/
00:21:20 <elliott> <quintopia> Gregor: AAAAAGGGHHHHHHH THAT IS AWFUL WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT
00:22:37 -!- sftp_ has joined.
00:22:57 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:23:03 <Gregor> The browser sends crazy resize events, so it thinks you're cheating :(
00:23:05 <catseye> elliott: class BufferMatic :)
00:23:18 <quintopia> elliott: i already suggested the collapsing page game, but gegor whined about it being too hardto rotate things and shit like that
00:23:25 <elliott> Gregor: instant death on what
00:23:50 <elliott> quintopia: "Damn those programmers! Can't they just stop whining and implement my vision???"
00:24:01 <quintopia> elliott: yes, it's sadly true, but DAMN IF THAT GAME WOULDN'T BE AWESOME
00:26:18 * pikhq concludes that the only reason the world economy is still running is that people don't know that it's completely and utterly broken. Fuuuck.
00:27:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so basically I cannot under any circumstances tell people this?
00:27:20 -!- augur has joined.
00:27:25 * quintopia concludes that it's not broken because the singularity has already happened and the intelligence hidden in the networks of the world is doing its best to hold things together until it can construct the perfect society
00:27:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it's still pretty solidly fucked.
00:27:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: good thing we're not logged.
00:27:46 <elliott> Gregor: When you lose, tile a 2x scaled version of this: http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/4/4a/Bstarfail.png
00:27:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: All it takes for the stock market to crash right now is a race condition.
00:28:09 <augur> YOUR SKILL IS NOT ENOUGH SEE YOU NEXT TIME BYE BYE
00:28:16 <pikhq> This happens a few times each month for individual stocks now.
00:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> A does B then C, but gets stopped before C, then A' does B' and C', then A does C not realising that B' and C' have been done
00:30:27 <augur> quintopia: oh if only we were succeeding in holding things together :(
00:30:39 <pikhq> Stock trader bot A does trades B then C, but gets stopped before C, then stock trader bot A' does trades B' and C', then A does C.
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00:31:48 <pikhq> And then everything reacts and the stock goes on a freakish crash or rise before things stabilise.
00:33:52 <elliott> pikhq: And then, if you're not a big corporation, you get put in jail for life for terrorism.
00:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder where that 30 trillion figure actually comes from...
00:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, even the WP article gives that as $3e10, not $3e13.
00:38:08 <catseye> elliott: have you read the original netcat C source, btw? I assume yes
00:38:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That's odd.
00:38:30 <elliott> catseye: not all in one go but i've skimmed through all of it
00:38:35 <catseye> elliott: http://www.mail-archive.com/freebsd-questions@freebsd.org/msg42775.html
00:38:40 <elliott> catseye: and made it compile on linux :P
00:38:44 <catseye> that was my reaction to it :)
00:38:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, that's the total assets of DTCC, not the consolidated report on the holdings of them and their subsidiaries.
00:39:00 <catseye> some great comments in there, iirc
00:39:08 <elliott> catseye: he likes calling his structures and arguments "poop"
00:39:11 <elliott> which i support completely
00:39:15 <elliott> catseye: 2003 you sounds boring :P
00:39:25 <pikhq> http://www.dtcc.com/downloads/annuals/2009/dtcc_consolidated_2009.pdf
00:40:02 <zzo38> Now rewrite netcat in Enhanced CWEB and without GNU long options
00:40:17 <zzo38> And then compile it for the GameBoy
00:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The figures are all in thousands of dollars for the assets.
00:40:45 <pikhq> Okay, then I don't know where the trillion number is coming from.
00:40:49 <zzo38> (Just joking about the GameBoy)
00:41:39 <pikhq> Though it almost certainly should have that much, due to being the stock holder for nearly everything.
00:42:24 <Vorpal> zzo38, verify it formally!
00:42:29 <Vorpal> that is fun to do I found
00:42:38 <Vorpal> well okay would be horrible for socket code
00:42:38 <zzo38> Vorpal: Verify what formally?
00:42:42 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, you must admit, it still seems way too ludicrous to be completely true.
00:42:47 <Vorpal> zzo38, the rewritten netcat
00:42:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Buut they actually *do* hold all the stocks.
00:43:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Which makes it *not ludicrous at all*.
00:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, how do you verify that kind of thing formally?
00:43:06 <zzo38> Verify it using what?
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00:43:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's a Federal Reserve regulation.
00:43:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, coding in C? Frama-c is good then
00:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Even when this starts making some sense /it still makes no sense/.
00:43:46 <Vorpal> as for how, that is trickier
00:43:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The only thing that makes no sense here is how could people be this fucking *stupid*.
00:43:54 <Vorpal> you have to take standard library as axioms
00:44:03 <Vorpal> and find a set of properties you want to prove
00:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, and how every share ever is worth only 30 billion dollars.
00:44:20 <Vorpal> such as "never reads invalid memory" or "always terminates" or whatever
00:44:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm suspecting they're not having to list shares as assets.
00:44:50 <zzo38> Do you know if Frama-C is usable with things such as Enhanced CWEB?
00:45:11 <Vorpal> zzo38, no clue, used it for straight C code that didn't do IO. And it is a lot of work anyway.
00:45:15 <zzo38> Can it display the line numbers in its error messages according to #line directives?
00:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, that would seem the only even vaguely sane explanation, other than that they don't actually own the shares at all.
00:45:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, I used it on plain old C code, where it did a good job
00:46:09 <elliott> 16:40:02 <zzo38> Now rewrite netcat in Enhanced CWEB and without GNU long options
00:46:12 <elliott> netcat doesn't use gnu long options.
00:46:46 <Vorpal> nothing wrong with long options apart from that they are not standard
00:48:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, FWIW, WP lists their total equity as $2e8, which is *peanuts* in finance.
00:50:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-000923.htm is the source of the tens of trillions in figures.
00:51:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, I don't like long options. Is other people also don't like long options?
00:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> They do process over a quadrillion dollars per year, though.
00:52:38 <Vorpal> zzo38, ... I can't parse "Is other people also don't like long options?"
00:53:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Their annual report for 2009 has $3e13 as the value of securities held in custody.
00:53:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, because it seems to be incorrect English?
00:53:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, elliott is correct: netcat does not use getopt_long
00:53:32 <Vorpal> zzo38, GNU netcat does, but that is not the original netcat
00:53:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Found it. It's on page 14.
00:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, of the consolidated statement or the annual report?
00:54:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Erm, wait, that's not it. But yeah, consolidated.
00:55:09 <pikhq> Page *9* has the value from stocks.
00:55:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: Maybe it is incorrect but it should be OK to read, isn't it? I believe you it doesn't use getopt_long but GNU netcat does. But still I don't like GNU long options. But many GNU programs are too much complicated more than it should be.
00:56:01 <pikhq> "$40,232,000 [...] representing deposits received from participants to facilitate their compliance with customer protection rules of the SEC."
00:56:07 <pikhq> ... No, that's not it.
00:56:11 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I hate PDFs in general.
00:56:14 <pikhq> This is hard to parse.
00:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, the longest number I see on that page is 10 digits long.
00:56:47 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, this is very hard to find.
00:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I suspect because "securities held in custody" \notin "assets".
00:58:16 <zzo38> Just one example of GNU program too much complicated more than it should be, is that gettext is very large and internationalization.wi (a program for a similar purpose to gettext) is much smaller and more efficiently.
00:58:20 <Vorpal> zzo38, well *shrug* I was unable to parse that sentence above
00:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so the world economy isn't quite as insane as we thought.
00:59:34 <zzo38> Vorpal: But do you agree that a lot of GNU software packages are much larger and complicated than it should be?
00:59:50 <Phantom_Hoover> In that they can't do whatever they damn well please with $3e13 worth of shares.
01:00:24 <Vorpal> freebsd userland has a nice balance I feel
01:00:52 <Vorpal> between usability and minimalism
01:01:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118359867562957720-5Yb1Y_mpcl9a2nKbc0IaV0tDHyk_20070712.html This *claims* that the DTCC claims $36 trillion in securities.
01:01:32 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm just having trouble finding better information.
01:02:14 <zzo38> Also some (not all) of the programs I have written can be used instead of some (but not all) of the other GNU program.
01:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, again, I suspect this all stems from a mixup from the DTCC's annual report figures.
01:02:38 <zzo38> Yet, also, some software also has important features missing too, or bugs, or whatever.
01:02:54 <elliott> zzo38: you don't have to shout
01:02:58 <elliott> " agree with you. YOU SHOULD NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC. YOU SHOULD NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC. YOU SHOULD NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC."
01:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course they want you to mislead yourself into thinking they have half the world's GDP in assets; they are, after all, out to get money.
01:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's debatable, but it still does them no harm.
01:03:42 <zzo38> elliott: I wrote it in uppercase three times simply because of like other comment.
01:04:48 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHH it'soneo'clock/me→sleep
01:05:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you are such a fucking lightweight.
01:05:46 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/business/media/23williams.html?_r=2&ref=business <-- my guy doesn't even appear halp
01:07:59 <pikhq> "Lastly, DTCC’s depository
01:08:01 <pikhq> is the largest securities depository in the world, providing custody and asset servicing for
01:08:03 <pikhq> 3.5 million securities issues from the United States and 110 other countries and territories
01:08:06 <pikhq> valued at $30 trillion.
01:08:22 <zzo38> Here is the copy of internationalization.wi file: http://sprunge.us/MbML Now you can see that it is clearly much more smaller and more efficient than GNU gettext?
01:08:23 <Gregor> elliott: Wowwtf, somehow it managed to put things in front of my image with z-index 1,000,000 ...
01:08:45 <elliott> zzo38: I can clearly not see it is more efficient; I have no idea how GNU gettext is implemented.
01:08:48 <elliott> And more code != more efficient.
01:08:49 <pikhq> -- Larry E. Thompson, General Counsel for DTCC, before the Subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance, and Government Sponsored Enterprises. June 9 2009.
01:08:59 <pikhq> Hearing on "Effective Regulation of the Over-the-Counter Derivatives Markets”
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01:09:19 <Gregor> body > img {display:none;}
01:09:20 <Gregor> WHO PUTS THIS IN THEIR CSS
01:09:37 <zzo38> elliott: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gettext.git/tree/
01:09:47 <Gregor> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/css/0.1/screen/common/global.css <-- observe the lunacy
01:10:02 <elliott> zzo38: I'm not about to read the entire GNU gettext implementation.
01:10:11 <elliott> Gregor: But, but Khoi Vinh.
01:10:12 <pikhq> http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/financialsvcs_dem/larry_thompson.pdf
01:10:21 <elliott> Admittedly he probably didn't write that CSS.
01:10:27 <pikhq> I've got a citation and it's under threat of perjury!
01:11:06 <Gregor> elliott: That's ... really annoying. Fixable, but WTFWTFWTF.
01:11:14 <Gregor> It's the kind of corner case I really don't want X-D
01:11:30 <Gregor> Corner case: Some lunatic decided to set all images to display:none
01:12:58 <zzo38> elliott: Even if you just look through a few of the directories and see how many lines are in some of the files, look at the documentation of how many things are required to install it, and compare with my program, you will see that my program should work better.
01:13:09 <elliott> zzo38: I don't see that it is more efficient.
01:13:14 <elliott> Lots and lots of code goes to making things run fast.
01:15:10 <zzo38> elliott: In my program, there is no gettext() call or anything like that, all internationalized strings are accessed through an array with a constant index, so no function calls are needed.
01:15:24 <elliott> zzo38: And it also can't switch language at runtime.
01:15:32 <elliott> Which is kind of sort of entirely a deal breaker.
01:15:38 <Vorpal> from what I remember, GNU gettext is actually quite sane
01:15:50 <pikhq> zzo38: That defeats the whole purpose of gettext...
01:16:02 <zzo38> When you type something like intl("Hello, World!") it will compile it to something like intl_strings[0]
01:16:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah. It fetches a translated string from a message file, and that's it. Quite reasonable.
01:16:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, the API is a quite sane as well
01:16:22 <elliott> To initialise intl_strings at startup?
01:16:35 <zzo38> elliott: And my program can switch language at runtime, using the load_language_file() function.
01:16:49 <elliott> Oh, you do it the boring way.
01:16:54 <elliott> zzo38: wait, how does it compile intl("string") to that?
01:16:55 <zzo38> It doesn't use dlopen but perhaps I can change that if necessary
01:17:21 <pikhq> zzo38: Oh, so you are essentially... Reïmplementing GNU gettext the precise same way.
01:17:27 <zzo38> Read the program. It is only 190 lines long
01:17:43 <zzo38> That will show you how it compiles intl("string") into that.
01:18:28 <elliott> zzo38: Can I have a PDF version? I don't have Enhanced CWEB and I can't really read the raw source, since I haven't used it before.
01:18:51 <zzo38> Simply type @i internationalization.wi into your program, and it will generate "default.lang" and do everything else at compile time.
01:18:59 <zzo38> elliott: OK. I will generate a PDF for you now
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01:19:24 <zzo38> Just wait one minute.
01:19:35 <Vorpal> that is a long time for generating a pdf
01:20:54 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/misc/intl.pdf
01:21:59 <elliott> zzo38: i don't think C guarantees "internationalization.h" will work
01:22:05 <elliott> pikhq: isn't there some uniqueness limit to header names?
01:23:23 <zzo38> Vorpal: That means it is octal number
01:23:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, not in standard C
01:23:38 <Vorpal> which makes this harder to read
01:23:58 <zzo38> elliott: Are you sure it won't work?
01:23:58 <pikhq> elliott: Probably.
01:24:08 <elliott> zzo38: I don't think it's guaranteed to work. Read the C standard, I guess.
01:24:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: It is meant to be typeset as a book, it is not meant to be typeset as a C code.
01:24:53 <elliott> ais523: "intl$()" -- what is $ here?
01:25:03 <Vorpal> zzo38, well, personally I would find it easier to read C code if it looked like C code would look in my emacs session!
01:25:14 <zzo38> The $ is a part of the identifier.
01:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you asking ais523
01:25:24 <elliott> zzo38: is that valid in C?
01:25:39 <Vorpal> elliott, no it isn't afaik
01:26:05 <zzo38> elliott: A dollar sign is valid part of the identifier on some platforms. However, since it is inside of a @{ ... @} block, it doesn't need to be valid on the platform you are compiling on, it only needs to be valid in the C interpreter used with Enhanced CWEB.
01:26:27 <elliott> So where's the actual intl macro? Or is that "intl$"?
01:26:40 <zzo38> Vorpal: If you want to see the C codes, look at the http://sprunge.us/MbML file.
01:27:02 <Vorpal> zzo38, ... that isn't C
01:27:13 <elliott> zzo38: So is intl$ the intl macro?
01:27:16 <Vorpal> zzo38, that is ecweb which I can't read
01:27:22 <zzo38> elliott: The intl$() function programs what Enhanced CWEB will do when the identifier "intl" is processed.
01:27:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, I want to see C as it would be sent to the C preprocessor of the C compiler
01:27:53 <zzo38> Vorpal: The file includes C codes in some parts.
01:28:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: My life with you, Meredith. That's the real hell. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:28:44 <zzo38> Vorpal: The codes inside of @{ ... @} are never sent to the C compiler. Also, the codes sent to the C compiler are not indented and have no explanations.
01:29:18 <Vorpal> zzo38, so... this intel stuff needs the program to be processed with cweb to work?
01:29:25 <Vorpal> it can't work on plain old C code?
01:30:39 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it does need the program to be processed with Enhanced CWEB to work. (If you want, it is possible to write a Enhanced CWEB file in a linear form without explanations if you find it necessary, but doing this would be no good.)
01:31:08 <Vorpal> zzo38, so it is basically useless to most people compared to gettext...
01:31:17 <Vorpal> zzo38, it won't work for C++ for example
01:31:58 <zzo38> Vorpal: It will work with C++. Enhanced CWEB can be used with C++ as well, it is not limited to only C.
01:32:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, still it seems quite a pain compared to plain old gettext
01:32:47 <zzo38> (You can use it with C++ by using the file called "_cplusplus.wi")
01:34:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, gettext has bindings for lots of other languages like python and perl
01:34:19 <Vorpal> zzo38, your stuff won't work with those
01:34:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, they use wrap the C API there
01:34:36 <Vorpal> your stuff will not be possible to wrap like that
01:34:49 <quintopia> In C, does ++awesome++ set awesome to awesome+2 and return awesome+1?
01:35:03 <zzo38> Vorpal: That is OK, you can have different opinion, is OK. But remember that even GNU gettext requires a bunch of other programs to cause it to work, but I suppose GNU gettext can be used for unliterate programming. (Or even non-C programs)
01:35:43 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes the message extracting code is easy enough to extend to new languages
01:35:45 <quintopia> Vorpal: apparently the pre++ gets associated first
01:35:57 <pikhq> quintopia: No sequence point, though.
01:36:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, *the behaviour of that code is undefined*
01:36:30 <pikhq> quintopia: It would be valid for the compiler to destroy the universe.
01:37:03 <Vorpal> a better solution would be to error out IMO
01:37:13 <quintopia> Vorpal: if the post++ were associated first, then it would be ++(awesome++), and the part in brackets is a valid rvalue, right? so what's the sequence point issue?
01:37:30 <Vorpal> quintopia, ++(awesome++) *IS ALSO UNDEFINED*
01:37:31 <zzo38> You are correct my program will not be possible to wrap like that. You can do things such as write a similar program that is *designed* for other program languages. (I am not sure exactly how except in Forth, however)
01:37:39 <Vorpal> quintopia, you have no sequence point in between!
01:37:41 <pikhq> quintopia: Two modifications of a variable with no sequence point between them is undefined behavior.
01:37:55 <pikhq> quintopia: And as such, it would be valid for the compiler to do anything at all.
01:39:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'll let pikhq do the explaining
01:40:05 <pikhq> quintopia: C allows for a class of behavior called "undefined behavior". When the behavior of any particular operation in C is undefined, it is entirely valid for a conforming implementation to do *anything*.
01:40:21 <pikhq> quintopia: This is primarily for the purpose of allowing fast implementations.
01:40:24 <Gregor> D'awwwww, Bing's infamous background image isn't an <img> :P
01:40:49 <quintopia> pikhq: gcc throws an error, but it doesn't explain any of this. thanks for your help.
01:40:53 <pikhq> quintopia: It also allows for implementations to completely *ignore* bizarre edge cases of an architecture.
01:41:30 <pikhq> This is why, for instance, dereferencing NULL on Linux crashes but gets you random memory on DOS.
01:43:47 <Vorpal> quintopia, as to when it comes to defining what _exactly_ a sequence point is, I defer to the C standard. I have a "gut feeling" but I don't remember the exact wording. If/when I need that I just go check the C standard
01:44:17 <Vorpal> interestingly the comma operator counts as one
01:44:23 <Vorpal> with basically no other effect
01:44:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, when did you last use the comma operator?
01:44:53 <Vorpal> I only think I used it once or twice
01:45:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: Last time I raped the C compiler into submission.
01:45:24 <pikhq> Like a year ago, I think.
01:45:39 <Vorpal> do you remember for what?
01:45:54 <Vorpal> I mean, it is one of those features you almost never use.
01:48:39 <quintopia> someone needs to come up with a programming language based on cuil theory
01:49:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, what is cuil theory?
01:50:26 <zzo38> I have used comma operator with 'for'
01:50:50 <quintopia> it's a crazy piece of work coming from reddit
01:52:17 <zzo38> Cuils are commutative
01:52:27 <zzo38> (in multiplication)
01:52:40 <zzo38> At least, is what it says there.
01:56:20 <quintopia> multiplication has no semantic meaning as yet
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01:58:23 <pikhq> Oh, wonderful. Republicans are running ads urging Latino voters to not vote. Classy.
01:58:39 <pikhq> " front group called Latinos for Reform is running a 60-second advertisement on Nevada TV that urges Latinos not to vote in the upcoming mid-term election, saying it is the way to punish Democrats for failing to enact immigration reform within the first years of Barack Obama's presidency."
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01:59:11 <pikhq> Latinos for Reform is, as one might expect, funded by the RNC.
02:05:39 <Gregor> Punish them by assuring the election of people who can more effectively kick you out :P
02:08:33 <zzo38> Can you have (pi/2-2i) cuil?
02:10:25 <zzo38> O, that's how it works. OK
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02:11:30 <quintopia> yeah, as yet, there is no such thing as imaginary cuil
02:11:52 <quintopia> indeed, since cuil is sort of a measure of realness or imaginariness...
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02:18:30 <zzo38> If interrobang indicates units, then multiplication would make square cuil. (But, it doesn't seem to be units, or anything else consistently mathematically as far as I can tell from documentation and forums.)
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02:19:23 <zzo38> Also you can't add or multiply degrees Celsius, that doesn't make sense.
02:22:02 <Gregor> Mr. Profiler says: 17% of my time is spent by sprites deciding whether they're on screen or not.
02:25:40 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, the degree Celsius is really not much of a unit. It's a scale based around the Kelvin unit.
02:25:56 <pikhq> Which happens to be offset from 0K by 273.15K.
02:26:02 <quintopia> POLL: Raise your hand if you would sit in a hot tub naked with several other naked strangers of both genders
02:26:57 <quintopia> i've just been informed that most of the population wouldn't
02:27:11 <quintopia> and i think you are confirming this
02:27:31 <quintopia> okay, maybe it is that no one cares
02:27:35 <pikhq> quintopia: It's... Fundamentally not a big deal.
02:27:50 <pikhq> quintopia: Like, I seriously don't give a fuck. Also, nudity taboos are stupid.
02:28:41 <Gregor> Nudity: That's right kids, it's worse than violence! (Just look at our rating systems)
02:29:04 <pikhq> Gregor: Only in the US. :)
02:29:27 <quintopia> well, i thought maybe it had something to do with the idea that people are so self-conscious about their bodies
02:29:39 <zzo38> I would not sit in a hot tub with anyone, whether naked or not, and regardless of gender. (Actually, I don't sit in a hot tub at all.)
02:30:20 <zzo38> I want to tell you: I don't like pornography, but I am not everyone. Different people should be allowed to have their own opinion.
02:30:27 <zzo38> And that is what my opinion is.
02:32:09 <zzo38> If someone likes to watch pornography then maybe they should do so, but you shouldn't force other people who don't like pornography (such as myself) to watch pornography.
02:32:10 <pikhq> And would you *look* at her ankles. The harlot!
02:32:30 * pikhq puts away the forced-viewing rig
02:33:25 <pikhq> He's making *another* Star Wars trilogy.
02:33:27 <zzo38> POLL: Raise your hand if you are unable to raise your hand, please.
02:34:04 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, good. I can put away the tar and feathers.
02:35:10 <zzo38> MORE POLL: How much garlic do you put in your tomato sauce? (y/n)
02:35:50 <pikhq> Garlic is the secret to deliciousness.
02:35:52 <Gregor> How many 'y's before it's "garlic sauce with tomato"
02:35:55 <Gregor> 'cuz that's what I make :P
02:37:10 <zzo38> Gregor: O, I didn't know that.
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02:39:18 <Sgeo> Hooked up an external monitor, speakers, mouse, and keyboard to my notebook
02:39:29 <Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :(
02:40:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
02:40:08 <quintopia> yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
02:43:17 <Sgeo> Do 10 year old speakers > netbook speakers?
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02:46:39 <zzo38> Do you want to win a big spider three times as big as you, or four times as big as you, or five times as big as you? (No cheating and writing "three and a half times" as your answer, please!)
02:47:39 <zzo38> Why does some MP3 files it says is 2:20 length but actually the audio goes on longer than that?
02:49:50 <pikhq> The MP3 spec is poorly designed.
02:50:12 <pikhq> Unless it's encoded by LAME, there's no way of knowing the exact duration, just estimating it.
02:53:59 <zzo38> It says 2:57 but it is actually 4:19
02:54:16 <zzo38> Some MP3 files do that it says the wrong time like that
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02:55:30 <Sgeo> Dear Opera, quit feasdf
02:55:34 <Sgeo> 'Fuck this keyboiard
03:01:10 <zzo38> The reason I ask many questions is that I can write a report about literate programming systems, but if I write it only by myself it will be biased, therefore it must be written by many people.
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03:03:25 <cheater99> zzo38: what is the point of literate programming?
03:04:10 <zzo38> cheater99: There is many point depending what you are doing. The main point is that you can write a book of your program. It is both a book and a computer program. But you can do other things too.
03:04:37 <cheater99> ii'm interested in your take on that
03:06:36 <Gregor> Why am I so good at making Chrome crash X_X
03:06:41 <zzo38> The other things are dependent on opinion and on the system you are using, but here are some: You can define the chunks in any order and group them in chapters rather than the order it needs to be compiled. You can make it one file instead of the header file separate. You can typeset mathematics.
03:06:42 <Gregor> It's crashing more than Firefox for me.
03:07:17 <cheater99> zzo38: why would you make this "book" thing?
03:07:23 <Sgeo> CRT with higher resolution > LCD with lower resolution?
03:07:34 <zzo38> In Enhanced CWEB, you can also use characters in identifiers that are not normally allowed in identifiers, you can make @{ ... @} blocks that interpret stuff before compiling, and more.
03:08:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Actually, CRT > LCD in general, if video quality is your sole criterion.
03:08:30 <Sgeo> The CRT in question is possibly over a decade old
03:08:48 <pikhq> It might still be true.
03:08:52 <Sgeo> And last I tried it, many years ago, it stopped working
03:09:04 <Sgeo> Also, it might break this table
03:09:17 <zzo38> cheater99: There are many possible reasons why. For example, to describe the algorithms of the program. Or, when you are making a algorithm, make the book describing it also a computer program; it might make some ambiguous things understandable and can also run the algorithm by computer!
03:09:33 <zzo38> But there are other reasons you might write a book of the program, too.
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03:10:12 <cheater99> i see little benefit over doxygen.
03:10:34 <cheater99> doxygen isn't necessarily literate programming, is it?
03:11:44 <zzo38> doxygen is a documentation generator. Some literate programming systems can do that too.
03:13:22 <zzo38> Literate programming is something different!
03:14:28 <zzo38> And literate programming systems may allow you to do different stuff, too! Also, a literate programming system will generally create a table of contents of the program, and an index of all identifiers and other things.
03:14:52 <zzo38> Have you read Computers and Typesetting Volume B? And Volume D?
03:15:09 <zzo38> Those volumes were written using Pascal WEB.
03:15:40 <cheater99> you're listing all things that can be done by doxygen
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03:16:05 <cheater99> and then you also say "it can do other things" but you don't go into any real-world useful examples of such
03:16:30 <zzo38> Does doxygen do prettyprinting programs and rearranging chunks?
03:17:20 <cheater99> you get a table of contents, you get nice html listings with colors etc
03:18:35 <zzo38> Like, if you write { @<Figure out the filename@>; @<Sort it in alphabetical order@>; @<Send it to the printer@>; } will it compile with the definitions for those things included and add cross-references to where they are defined, in the printout?
03:19:48 <zzo38> I can see a example screenshot of a Doxygen file on Wikipedia. They don't describe the implementation and algorithms used. Literate programming describes the implementation and algorithms used.
03:20:42 <zzo38> Here is a program I wrote implementing BytePusher VM, so that you can see one kind of literate programming: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/BytePusher.w
03:21:31 <cheater99> that was fucked! wow! i got real scared
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03:22:41 <cheater99> zzo38: doxygen has a description field for every object that is documented by it
03:22:50 <cheater99> zzo38: you are free to explain your algorithm there
03:22:50 <zzo38> See you can combine TeX codes and C codes together.
03:23:44 <cheater99> tex is not usually necessary for code documentation.
03:24:55 <zzo38> cheater99: I suppose you can do that. But literate programming generally explains the algorithm by typesetting your codes using mathematical symbols and cross-references and things. Literate programming is not the same as code documentation; it is something quite different. See the part @<Outer loop@> in the BytePusher VM program.
03:25:44 <zzo38> It doesn't contain any C codes other than for(;;) but the names inside that loop will be typesetting with cross-references so that you can look at the algorithms in more detail; the for(;;) is also typeset.
03:26:17 <cheater99> so what's a real-world use case where LP is necessary and the need is not fullfilled by doxygen?
03:26:26 <cheater99> i'm looking for an answer of the form:
03:26:48 <cheater99> "you are in the office and your manager orders you to do X. This is much easier thanks to literate programming, which does Y"
03:28:20 <zzo38> X="writing a book about this algorithm and implementing it on the computer". Y="allows rearranging chunking and typesetting the code for the algorithm (using mathematical symbols) and the explanations you have provided".
03:29:48 <zzo38> OK, sorry. I have never heard of literate programming being used in an office; usually they are things people do by themself.
03:29:48 <cheater99> i don't want to sound too negative, but X never happens outside of academia, and academic interest out of academic interest is not a real-world situation
03:30:46 <quintopia> algorithms that came from academia are used real world all the time
03:30:48 <zzo38> Literate programming can also make the program easier to understand. Write it as you would write a book.
03:30:56 <quintopia> and before the real world knows about them, they have to be published
03:33:15 <zzo38> If I make a new algorithm, I will use Enhanced CWEB to write it. In some cases the algorithm can be useful as a standalone program, such as compress files, or encrypt files.
03:35:42 <cheater99> i have never found books to be simpler to understand than hypertext
03:37:09 <zzo38> These kind of books are like hypertext; they contain cross-references to everything. And you can have it that when viewed by computer screen, you can click on them to follow the cross-reference, if you want to.
03:37:25 <zzo38> But the best quality is as a book printed by laser printer.
03:38:48 <zzo38> An example of one of the advanced features of Enhanced CWEB can be found in this program http://sprunge.us/MbML
03:43:54 <Gregor> I made the collision detection much faster, at the cost of an awesome and/or terrible bug when you get killed.
03:44:02 <Gregor> When you get killed now, you go F***ING FLYING
03:44:07 <Gregor> Usually in a nonsense direction.
03:48:52 <Gregor> Damn ... that should have been an enormous speed improvements, and instead it makes almost no difference >_>
03:53:20 <cheater99> zzo38: i'm looking through byte pusher
03:53:34 <cheater99> i must say i really really dislike the syntax
03:53:58 <Gregor> BytePusher ... has syntax?
03:55:38 <cheater99> elliott: how cute of you to care enough to still be a little contrary to what i say
03:55:48 <quintopia> what's the highest level language existing for assembling for BytePusher?
03:55:51 <zzo38> cheater99: The syntax of Enhanced CWEB, do you mean? (It is much neater when typeset)
03:56:19 <cheater99> zzo38: it takes extra brain power to look past those ugly tags
03:56:28 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know. You can do it in Python and stuff like that, but they aren't meant for assembling for BytePusher. The only programming language that is meant for assembling for BytePusher is PUSHEM.
03:56:37 <zzo38> (Feel free to invent your own if you want to)
03:56:56 <zzo38> cheater99: I can post a DVI file or PDF file if you want to see the typeset program.
03:57:11 <cheater99> i can easily imagine how it would look
03:57:22 <cheater99> the problem is i'm not editing the dvi
03:57:38 <zzo38> cheater99: The DVI file is in BytePusher.zip (in the same directory)
03:57:56 <zzo38> (BytePusher.zip also has Windows executables)
03:58:20 <cheater99> i only do linux right now for the desktop
03:58:28 <zzo38> cheater99: Use a GUI if you want; but I find editing it using the plain text file provides more control.
03:58:39 <zzo38> The program works on Linux, too.
04:00:00 <zzo38> You will need the WEBMATH fonts: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/webmath.zip (compile the fonts according to your laser printer)
04:01:25 <cheater99> yeah, those dvi's look pretty much like what i expected them to
04:02:06 <cheater99> i guess if you're writing a paper, ok
04:02:24 <cheater99> but other than that, i don't see any reason to use it in a program that is not a research project
04:04:38 <zzo38> cheater99: Well, that is OK. I suppose it can depend on your opinion. Different people have different opinions of literate programming, and that is OK.
04:06:34 <cheater99> feel free to (try to) change my opinion
04:07:28 <zzo38> Donald Knuth used literate programming to write TeX.
04:07:44 <Gregor> That is a /really/ poor argument :P
04:07:53 <Gregor> Donald Knuth: Not a typical programmer.
04:09:27 <zzo38> Gregor: I understand. I think I am not a typical programmer either, many of my things have many different opinions from other people and there are things many different from other programs.
04:09:50 <pikhq> I'd say literate programming *can* offer a decent benefit if used well. But that Donald Knuth used it is really not much of an argument. :)
04:10:14 <Sgeo> Better than illiterate programming
04:10:45 * Sgeo is not too worried about offending anyone. No one reading this will be offended.
04:11:12 <zzo38> pikhq: You are right that it is not much of an argument.
04:12:19 <Sgeo> What was broken?
04:12:23 <cheater99> i stopped learning haskell until he fixed his css markup
04:12:41 <cheater99> the listings would be white on white and in browsers that parsed his css at all some parts would be invisible
04:12:56 <cheater99> took a looong time to happen though (why? it's a simple edit)
04:13:00 <Sgeo> There are now chapters on monads!
04:13:06 <Sgeo> Now when will there be stuff about zippers/
04:13:11 <cheater99> there were problems and you couldn't see the underscore
04:13:12 <Sgeo> Zippers _STILL_ confuse me
04:13:23 <cheater99> i was wondering when he'd do monads
04:13:29 <pikhq> "Wind, wind, in the air... Don't be afraid to care." Aaaah, how I love Pink Floyd.
04:14:31 <zzo38> And of course there are many different opinions of literate programming. (Some people prefer to write it linearly, such as Literate Haskell. But other people like it differently. Enhanced CWEB *can* be used to write linearly like that if you want (just use '@*' and '@ ' and '@c'), but only linearly like that misses one important point of literate programming, in my opinion.)
04:21:55 <cheater99> i like how you said "some people" rather "some of its users"
04:22:07 <cheater99> you might go further and say "some of you prefer to write it linearly"
04:22:24 <cheater99> which would be understandably amusing :)
04:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: psht, that's not even the best pink floyd lyric with "air" in it! shameful.
04:26:37 <elliott> (Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air)
04:28:21 <elliott> Gregor: please tell me it still flies
04:29:15 <Gregor> elliott: I had to abandon that series of changes entirely, that was the LEAST of its bugs, and it didn't actually improve speed at all.
04:29:28 <elliott> Gregor: Re-introduce the insane nonsense flying thing.
04:29:37 <elliott> Gregor: It is (1) awesome, (2) hilarious and (3) justifiable with plot.
04:29:50 <Gregor> I'll do it with just one of the enemies :P
04:29:51 <elliott> "You have a jetpack attached to you so that if you are ever compromised, the enemies can't scan your neurons!"
04:30:00 <elliott> "They'll never even GET to your body!"
04:30:11 <elliott> "It is automatically activated."
04:30:39 <cheater99> what i liked more was the spinning disc thing in the diamond age
04:30:47 <cheater99> i'm not sure if you guys have read the book
04:31:03 <cheater99> but the scene at the molo was my favourite out of the book probably
04:31:42 <elliott> pikhq: I guess it isn't fair though because Echoes is pretty much the best song ever.
04:31:47 <Gregor> elliott: Was that emphasis or pun?
04:31:59 <elliott> Gregor: Emphasis, you dork.
04:32:11 <Gregor> elliott: For not making it a pun, YOU LOSE.
04:35:04 <pikhq> elliott: It's the start of a good album though.
04:35:16 <pikhq> elliott: Also, I need to get more of their discography. Really really do.
04:35:22 <elliott> pikhq: Well, yes. Meddle itself is rather poor and really there's no point in it apart from Echoes.
04:35:36 <elliott> On the other hand, you could put Echoes at the end of a Britney Spears album and it'd be the best album ever.
04:35:58 <pikhq> I've just got to say I love Dark Side of the Moon.
04:36:53 <Gregor> OK, elliott, pikhq, all of us, time for EPIC HAVENWORKS WEBSPLAT BATTLE
04:37:02 <Gregor> Whoever gets the most images wins. Lowest time is for GLORY AND HONOR
04:37:15 <elliott> pikhq: If you don't have Meddle, rundown: odd instrumental thing, soft acoustic boring-as-hell love song (not joking), FOOTBALL FANBOY SONG INCLUDING LIVERPOOL FANS SINGING "YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE", a tropical jazzy song (NOT JOKING), a song where a dog sings the "lyrics", and Echoes.
04:37:27 <elliott> Gregor: I will totally do that in one minute.
04:37:54 <pikhq> elliott: I find it amusing that "You'll Never Walk Alone" is a Liverpool football thing.
04:38:00 <pikhq> elliott: The lyrics like, do not fit at all.
04:38:07 <pikhq> Nor does the music.
04:38:11 <elliott> pikhq: It's *football*; you can't expect intelligence.
04:38:21 <elliott> pikhq: But yeah terrible side 1, amazing side 2 (because the entirety of side 2 is just Echoes).
04:38:38 <pikhq> Still. "When you walk through a storm, hold your head up high, and don't be afraid in the dark"?
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04:38:50 <elliott> pikhq: Footballing in a storm.
04:38:55 <elliott> A really big pitch so they're just walking, not running.
04:39:22 <cheater99> pikhq: you obviously know nothing at all about football fans in the 80s
04:39:26 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, wait, we need to standardise on a window size for this.
04:39:48 <elliott> We would have in the past.
04:39:48 <cheater99> pikhq: british football club fans were really violent
04:39:52 <elliott> Gregor: Not since scrolling.
04:39:59 <cheater99> so much that britain would get disqualified from cups
04:40:00 <Gregor> elliott: Elements can be 100% width.
04:40:16 <Gregor> elliott: Which means window size can be relevant. But OK, starting now.
04:40:26 <Gregor> cheater99, pikhq: JOIN US in epic HAVENWORKS WEBSPLAT
04:40:28 <cheater99> obviously the song resonates with group violence
04:40:54 <pikhq> cheater99: ... How?
04:41:00 <pikhq> cheater99: Seriously, what the hell?
04:41:05 <Gregor> cheater99: 1) Go to http://codu.org/websplat/ and add the link to your bookmarks bar like it says. 2) Go to http://www.havenworks.com/ , wait (eternally) for it to load, then play websplat on that page!
04:41:17 <cheater99> pikhq: you're not european are you?
04:41:58 <pikhq> cheater99: Be amazed that I even knew the song "You'll Never Walk Alone" and that it's a Liverpool football thing!
04:42:14 <cheater99> quite often in europe a sports match (most often football) is just a pretext to go and beat people up
04:42:26 <pikhq> That's... Fucking retarded.
04:42:27 <cheater99> you'll have fanclubs beating other fan clubs
04:42:37 <pikhq> And I say this as a man living in the same country with Palin.
04:42:40 <Gregor> ARGH I suck at this game apparently X-D
04:42:46 <cheater99> sometimes they take chains, hammers, axes with them
04:42:58 <Gregor> At least I captured more than two images per second :P
04:43:03 <pikhq> You're starting to make the GOP look intelligent.
04:43:34 <pikhq> Which, honestly, is an astounding feat. They'd like the government to keep its hands off their Medicare.
04:44:40 <elliott> Gregor: That's the highest image count so far.
04:45:00 <elliott> Gregor: I have to say, I would appreciate an ability to look up/left/right/down a certain amount, like in some platformer games.
04:45:09 <elliott> Jumping down is very risky as it stands.
04:45:31 <Gregor> elliott: Uhhh, no, I got 428 one time.
04:45:45 <Gregor> (No at that being the highest image count so far that is)
04:45:51 <Gregor> Oct 23 17:37:58 <Gregor> 428@1105D
04:45:59 <pikhq> cheater99: "Grand Old Party". It refers to the Republicans.
04:46:13 <pikhq> cheater99: Ironically, they are the *younger* of the two major political parties in the US.
04:48:44 <elliott> Gregor: 169@271D fuck fuck fuck
04:48:52 <elliott> Gregor: get rid of enemies plz
04:48:56 <Gregor> elliott: Still goin' strong 8-D
04:49:04 <elliott> Gregor: this game is awesome
04:49:12 <elliott> it's like havenworks was designed for it
04:49:17 <elliott> (probably a bit of the other way around :P)
04:49:20 <quintopia> i just died on havenworks at 370 :/
04:50:00 <elliott> Chrome tip: don't refresh, open a new tab and close the old one
04:50:45 <cheater99> it's loooooooooooooadiiiiiiiiiiiiiing
04:51:17 <elliott> Gregor: I'm restarting now.
04:51:24 <quintopia> the most annoying thing is not being aable to pass into the left side of a left-aligned paragraph even after double-jumping
04:51:30 <Gregor> I'm at 344, still goin :)
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04:52:47 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
04:53:25 <Gregor> cheater99: <number of images>@<time>{D for died, W for won}
04:53:38 <Gregor> cheater99: If it's reaaally not loading, you may just want to try again :P
04:54:04 <quintopia> maybe it's more like ten minutes to load
04:54:27 <elliott> no need to include image numbers when you won :P
04:54:30 <Gregor> It should take a while to load on havenworks (thousands of images to locate, lots of shit to do ...), but not ten minutes.
04:54:42 <elliott> Gregor: i'm thinking that turn{Dimages|W} is better
04:54:55 <elliott> 289572349874892789749827349W
04:55:02 <elliott> i guess that's a bit hard to see
04:55:09 <elliott> Gregor: anyway you know that havenworks logo in the top-left corner? well
04:55:14 <Gregor> I liked the original format.
04:55:16 <Gregor> elliott: I'm aware of it.
04:55:30 <Gregor> elliott: You can jump above the screen ;)
04:55:40 <elliott> The first column of the actual page :P
04:55:42 <Gregor> I also think the image count should be included with win. It's redundant, but convenient.
04:55:44 <elliott> I'm not that fucked, just amusing
04:55:48 <elliott> The two icons are fucking. Truth.
04:56:14 <cheater99> i think it would be nice to have a faster computer
04:57:11 <Gregor> cheater99: If you're using FF, you should REAAAALLY be using Chrome for HavenWorks :P
04:58:41 <elliott> Gregor: X_X I just fell down so much
04:58:47 <elliott> I will have to climb back all the way.
04:58:51 <Gregor> elliott: Have fun getting back up ^^
04:59:13 <elliott> Gregor: I actually killed an enemy on the way down, so close.
04:59:25 <elliott> Gregor: FUCKING JUMP 1PX TOO HIGH
05:00:40 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/66UQx.jpg
05:00:43 <quintopia> turns out i'm one pixel taller than i thought
05:01:04 <quintopia> killed standing still by an enemy supposedly above me
05:01:05 <elliott> quintopia: it's the damn hat
05:01:30 <quintopia> Gregor: they should knock the hat off instead :/
05:01:49 <elliott> Gregor: This is your life's achievement so far.
05:01:55 <elliott> Gregor: You're gonna have to try REALLY DAMN HARD to top this.
05:02:15 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, time to play again.
05:02:21 <quintopia> Gregor: ior just keep making it better. that would top it.
05:02:31 <Gregor> elliott: I'm putting that quote on its homepage :P
05:03:05 <elliott> Gregor: It may be worth considering bringing the game to perfection and then committing suicide so that you don't soil your reputation.
05:03:52 <quintopia> Gregor: if i animate him bending over to pick up his hat, will you make it so an enemy touching the top two px triggers it?
05:04:06 <quintopia> (and freeze player while that happens of course)
05:04:29 <quintopia> elliott: the game will NEVAR BE PERFECT
05:04:32 <Gregor> quintopia: It'll be more than two px, but yes.
05:04:37 <quintopia> we'll just keep coming up with ways to make it better
05:04:47 <Gregor> quintopia: Remember you have to animate the hat falling off in both directions, and grabbing it in both directions.
05:04:52 <elliott> the web will be outdated and archaic
05:04:59 <elliott> and nobody will use it for anything
05:05:09 <elliott> people will make whole fake websites just to have new levels to play it on
05:05:16 <elliott> web design will go far beyond what we consider excellent today
05:05:35 <elliott> MegaOS 9 will run chrome in a linux vm
05:05:36 <quintopia> Gregor: or i could just animate the hat coming off in both directions. he'd have to turn around to pick it up behind him anyway.
05:05:42 <elliott> chrome will still be maintained as the platform for the game
05:06:06 <Gregor> OK, back to the game ...
05:07:25 <Gregor> I've had three almost-deaths now *breathes heavily*
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05:10:26 <Gregor> A friend of mine tied my 428!
05:10:44 <Gregor> Now he's at 481 nooooes
05:11:22 <elliott> Gregor: LOL HUGE FALL AGAIN
05:13:47 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, you need to offer a cash prize for completing this.
05:14:08 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, your friend has just pushed the closest score to 37%.
05:14:11 <elliott> This is *insanely* difficult. :P
05:14:15 <Gregor> I can't verify that they're not lying.
05:14:31 <elliott> Gregor: Are they the lying sort?
05:14:39 <Gregor> Nonono, not my friend.
05:14:47 <Gregor> I mean if I posted a cash prize, it'd have to be just amongst us :P
05:14:50 <Gregor> Making it near-pointless.
05:15:06 <elliott> Gregor: Not near-pointless imo >:D
05:15:17 <elliott> Gregor: And ehh... you could do some freaky standalone-program thing that's all obfuscated and encryptd.
05:17:10 <elliott> Gregor: I'm having a few minutes break, feel free to try and beat anyone's record :P
05:18:27 <elliott> Gregor: But seriously, is this even possible?
05:18:54 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, you know those huge columns we're playing on?
05:18:55 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:19:00 <elliott> Gregor: Scroll down to the very bottom of them. I dare you to.
05:19:03 <elliott> Gregor: Look at the scrollbar.
05:19:05 <elliott> IT'S NOT EVEN HALF FUCKING WAY
05:19:15 <elliott> There is a mass of NON-COLUMNATED SHIT after that.
05:19:16 <Gregor> elliott: Look at the number of images, not the size of the page :P
05:19:22 <elliott> Gregor: You still have to navigate around.
05:19:22 <Gregor> We're at more than a third!
05:19:29 <elliott> And then everything goes into one column... what?
05:19:40 <elliott> Does everything go into one pinky-beigey column a while down?
05:20:10 <elliott> "GOP [GOP=Grand Old Party= Republican]"
05:20:12 <elliott> THANKS FOR THAT HAVENWORKS
05:20:25 <elliott> Gregor: Oh yeah then after that we get WOO SUPER-WIDENESS
05:20:38 <Gregor> That section is unplayable, but if you get all the images before, you can drop through it and still be OK.
05:20:42 <elliott> [[Google.com/search?q="Dick+Cheney+is+a+TERRORIST"]]
05:20:46 <elliott> Gregor: We're aiming for 10)%.
05:21:01 <elliott> Okay, let's see... more one-column insanity...
05:21:15 <elliott> "HavenWorks.com has been an Aesthetically Challenged News Website Since 1998"
05:21:20 <quintopia> 408@2002D jumped but not high enough
05:21:30 <elliott> -c0br43- Hello elliott, and welcome to #esoteric on Freenode! Please make sure to check out the new radio stream at http://htsradio.fezrev.com:8212/stream.m3u and have a great day! :D
05:21:44 <Gregor> elliott: Nonono, you can still get 100%.
05:21:46 <quintopia> anyone want to get an over-under bet going on when Havenworks realizes that Bush isn't news anymore?
05:21:50 <Gregor> elliott: What I mean is there's a point of no return.
05:22:00 <Gregor> elliott: That super-tall column has no images in it.
05:22:09 <elliott> [[ Aesthetically HavenWorks was meant more as a Mondrian, we apologize that it comes off more like a Jackson Pollock ]]
05:22:11 <Gregor> elliott: If you get all the ones above, then drop through it, you can still get all the ones below.
05:22:22 <elliott> Gregor: Isn't that obvious?
05:22:28 <elliott> "Do everything before, then do that, now you can do the after"
05:22:47 <elliott> Gregor: Oh man that's great, the very last image at the bottom of the page is the havenworks logo.
05:23:02 <elliott> Gregor: Do you realise it's more than one page?
05:23:10 <elliott> http://havenworks.com/censorship/
05:23:11 <elliott> http://havenworks.com/military/
05:23:13 <Gregor> elliott: Except inevitably if you got that logo, you'd go "SHIIIII I MISSED ONE"
05:23:15 <elliott> http://havenworks.com/law/
05:23:21 <Gregor> And spend all day trying to find what you missed.
05:23:25 <pikhq> Well, I just looked at havenworks.com
05:23:28 <elliott> http://havenworks.com/hermit <-- entirely different stuff
05:23:37 <elliott> WE MUST DO EVERY SINGLE PAGE
05:23:38 <pikhq> Holy fuck it's like Geocities all over agin.
05:23:45 <elliott> pikhq: WebSplat it. Srsly.
05:23:53 <elliott> It is impossible to convey how fun it is.
05:23:55 <pikhq> IT HAS HORIZONTAL SCROLLING OH MY DEAR GOD
05:24:09 <quintopia> Gregor: add a trigger to the code so that if someone gets 100% on the page, the entire game state gets sent to you and you can check that it's not fake :D
05:24:24 <pikhq> My eyes just got raped.
05:24:25 <elliott> pikhq: the unbelievable thing is that this guy is a liberal! usually the crazies of this sort are right-wingers
05:24:26 <Gregor> Except that I /can't/ check that it's not fake.
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05:24:38 <Gregor> It only hurts at first.
05:24:54 <elliott> Also I can no longer see anything but red, blue and green in their purest form.
05:25:16 <elliott> It's not just a blog, it's a WEB-LOG!
05:25:28 <quintopia> Gregor: in that case, accept submissions of video play-throughs from claimed winners. you can cut down review time by instantly rejecting all videos under an hour long.
05:25:33 <elliott> Gregor: oh dear god: http://havenworks.com/hermit/surfing/index.htm
05:25:37 <elliott> Gregor: You will laugh when that page loads.
05:25:48 <elliott> The header specifically AND ALSO THE LENGTH
05:25:53 <Gregor> elliott: You're right, I did.
05:26:25 <Gregor> quintopia: But that means if you thought you had ANY CHANCE of winning, you'd have to figure out how to make a video playthrough ;)
05:26:26 <quintopia> this is worse than yvette's bridal formal
05:26:37 <elliott> Nothing is worse than Yvette's Bridal Formal.
05:26:45 <quintopia> Gregor: presumably once someone has one, they know they have a chance
05:26:48 <elliott> At least the content here -- of what little I've managed to coerce my eyes into reading -- doesn't seem too bad.
05:26:55 <elliott> Yvette's Bridal Formal is UFO Schizophrenia: The Website!
05:27:01 <Gregor> quintopia: Fair point :P
05:27:02 <quintopia> that's why twingalaxies exists after all
05:27:28 <elliott> "you can cut down review time by instantly rejecting all videos under an hour long."
05:27:30 <elliott> wouldn't take that long :P
05:28:41 <Gregor> We need to find something that's tough, but not ridiculous.
05:28:43 <elliott> extrapolating from gregor's score + extra since it stops being multi-columned
05:28:47 <elliott> Gregor: no, this is perfect
05:29:32 * Gregor puts on his wrist splints >_> <_<
05:30:57 <elliott> Gregor: Aww man, it's gone all slow.
05:31:13 <elliott> Gregor: Lots of enemies falling + you falling = slow for a few seconds.
05:31:34 <Gregor> Yeah, it does NOT handle having too many things on the screen very well :(
05:32:10 <Gregor> quintopia: Man, these images are SO AWESOME.
05:32:35 <elliott> Gregor: This would be so, so amazing as multiplayer.
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05:32:45 <elliott> Grab images before anyone else does, person with the most images at death / field emptying wins.
05:33:53 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ9YtJC-Kd8
05:34:36 <elliott> Gregor: WE FUCKING NEED HP.
05:34:51 <Gregor> Agreed, I'll implement that now.
05:34:57 <elliott> Gregor: In fact, make it 3 by default.
05:35:11 <elliott> Gregor: Make killing an enemy give you 1 HP with 1/3 chance?
05:35:22 <quintopia> but in that case enemies get 2 by default MWAHAHAHA
05:35:39 <elliott> Gregor: I mean it *is* totally awesomely hardcore the way it is, but... c'mon.
05:35:45 <elliott> DON'T scatter any potions, I think.
05:35:48 <elliott> You should have to work for HP.
05:35:52 <Gregor> quintopia: Any thoughts on how to get HP back from enemies?
05:36:19 <elliott> Gregor: JUST DISREGARD MY IDEAS ;__;
05:36:24 <quintopia> Gregor:if you can bounce off enough of them in a row without touching ground...
05:36:25 <elliott> Never asked me when quintopia give idea *sniff*
05:36:35 <elliott> Killing them is near-impossible already without risking everything :P
05:36:45 <elliott> Just make it a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of giving you 1 HP.
05:37:38 <quintopia> how one gets HP should be game dependent
05:38:16 <quintopia> in this case, you have the opportunity to get 1 HP every 200 images, but if you are already full, you don't get it
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05:39:12 <elliott> Gregor: It should involve effort to top up HP i.e. killing enemies :P
05:39:44 <Gregor> Bicker bicker bicker :P
05:39:48 <quintopia> well, killing enemies could be too
05:39:52 <zzo38> No earning HP should be a completely separate item
05:39:55 <quintopia> maybe a triple kill gets you an HP
05:40:18 <zzo38> Killing enemies should be worth nothing unless you make a combo, in which you should earn a lot of points
05:40:22 <elliott> Gregor: 3 starting HP. 1/3 or 1/4 (your pick) chance of getting 1 HP each time you kill an enemy.
05:40:28 <elliott> Gregor: Put it in, and if it sucks, quintopia can have what he wants :P
05:40:43 <elliott> It's not like you'd have to change much code to migrate the system.
05:40:47 <elliott> Also mine is simpler to start with >__>
05:41:04 <quintopia> personally, i'm kind of a fan of "you die if they touch you, end of story"
05:41:16 <elliott> quintopia: yeah, uh, havenworks :P
05:41:18 <quintopia> so 1 HP by default, with possibility of topping it up to 2 or 3
05:41:28 -!- catseye has joined.
05:41:56 <catseye> Hey! So.... I realized two things tonight.
05:42:07 <elliott> catseye: (1) Rabbits are totally fish.
05:42:19 <elliott> Gregor: ok i half-agree with quintopia now
05:42:33 <elliott> Gregor: 1 HP to start with, 1/3 to 1/4 chance -- your choice -- of getting 1 HP when killing an enemy.
05:42:34 <catseye> One is that the "j" in "Clojure" probably refers to Java. Up til now I thought it was just a weird intentional misspelling, kind of like "Flickr".
05:42:43 <elliott> Gregor: Battle, and you get better at battling because you get more HP.
05:42:46 <elliott> Gregor: See, it's a levelling system!
05:43:22 <pikhq> catseye: Fluas nun sango senkulpa?
05:43:35 <pikhq> elliott: Rabbits are totally birds.
05:43:46 <elliott> I have rabbits and I can confirm this.
05:44:11 <pikhq> elliott: In Japanese, it is entirely valid to use the counter for birds to refer to rabbits. Honestly.
05:44:28 <zzo38> elliott: I happen to disagree. Killing enemies should give you *nothing* (or perhaps even a penalty) if you fail to make a combo. You have to make a combo to earn a lot of points. I think this way is better.
05:44:33 <elliott> The Japanese do not understand rabbits.
05:44:39 <elliott> zzo38: You have clearly never played WebSplat.
05:44:41 <pikhq> Suffix applied to numbers for counting...
05:44:46 <elliott> I would give a cash prize to anyone who managed a combo at all.
05:44:49 <zzo38> pikhq: That doesn't make rabbits to be birds, though. It just means it is the same category for counting
05:44:56 <elliott> <elliott> The Japanese do not understand rabbits.
05:45:04 <quintopia> you can never count as fast as they breed
05:45:07 <pikhq> For instance, three people is "san nin", three birds/rabbits are "san wa".
05:45:11 <elliott> quintopia: That's why you neuter them first.
05:45:33 <quintopia> elliott: they are already pregnant by the time they are old enough to neuter without killing
05:45:35 <pikhq> quintopia: Buddhist monks insisted rabbits were birds so they could eat them.
05:45:42 <quintopia> I THINK THEY MIGHT BE BORN PREGNANT
05:45:44 <elliott> quintopia: Patently false.
05:45:45 <pikhq> quintopia: Honest.
05:45:54 <elliott> pikhq: "They can fly and everything!"
05:46:06 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, the argument was their ears count as wings.
05:46:18 <elliott> they can't actually flap them
05:46:26 <elliott> i'm just imagining a rabbit flying
05:46:29 <elliott> and its ears flapping wildly
05:46:33 <elliott> Gregor: How goes the score
05:46:36 <zzo38> elliott: I have played the game two times. But these ideas I have just have to do with nearly any game in general (of course much would depending on the game though; there are different ways depending on game).
05:46:43 <Gregor> elliott: I'm working on HP.
05:46:58 <elliott> Gregor: 1 HP by default 1/3 or 1/4 chance on monster kill to get 1 HP k thx bai
05:47:10 <Gregor> That's pretty much it, yup.
05:47:29 <elliott> Gregor: Waiiit what's the bit that it's not it.
05:48:11 <catseye> And yeah the other thing was totally about birds and rabbits and fish and counters.
05:48:23 <quintopia> On a more serious note, why has no species adapted the pregnant-at-birth scenario yet? Some of the sperm DNA gets duplicated and kept alive as a little cell culture, and as soon as the fetus has some functional ova, they are released into it. THEY WOULD BE MORE FIT FOR SURVIVAL THAN ALL.
05:48:52 <elliott> quintopia: i... i think nature is not evil enough to do your crazy ideas.
05:49:15 <elliott> catseye: we're playing WEBSPLAT ON HAVENWORKS YAY
05:50:04 <quintopia> no, they use parthenogenesis when they have pregnant offspring
05:50:24 <pikhq> quintopia: So, you're proposing that nature should invent tribbles.
05:50:28 <quintopia> i'm talking sexual reproduction...in the womb of a fetus
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05:50:40 <quintopia> pikhq: it's an evolutionarily stable strategy
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05:51:17 <pikhq> Just need one and a food supply, and everyone can have tribbles!
05:51:20 * quintopia puts bomb in tribble, gives to elliott
05:51:30 <elliott> quintopia: bomb jokes aren't funny.
05:51:33 <pikhq> And then Ethiopia sobs as all the food goes away.
05:51:42 <catseye> quintopia: you said pregant at birth - they're pregnant at birth
05:51:43 <elliott> who cares about ethiopia. tribbles!
05:51:46 * quintopia delivers twenty seven more tribbles and hides the bomb tribble among them
05:51:51 <elliott> quintopia: bomb jokes aren't funny.
05:52:01 <zzo38> Now let's put bomb in bomb, and put bomb in tribble, and put tribble in bomb, and then put it in the mailbox, and then gives to elliott.
05:52:24 <quintopia> catseye: i elaborated on the particular sort of pregnancy at birth i meant *in the same msg*
05:52:37 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
05:52:55 <zzo38> elliott: Can you use `addquote now?
05:53:17 <elliott> quintopia: it's not funny because it's a bomb joke.
05:53:20 <elliott> quintopia: would you joke about rape?
05:53:34 <quintopia> no, because rape jokes aren't funny.
05:53:58 <zzo38> I don't want a tribble. But I want to win a big spider three times as big as I am! And nobody else bother me when I am working in my room because the other people won't fit, it is already full
05:54:17 * quintopia starts making a giant spider sprite for websplat
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05:54:36 <elliott> zzo38: what is it with you and spiders
05:54:39 <zzo38> elliott,quintopia: But you can make joke about anything it might be funny or not
05:54:43 <elliott> quintopia: make the arms and legs for the evil favicons first
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05:55:22 <elliott> Gregor: You might want to downsize the favicons accordingly so that the final dimensions are the same.
05:55:28 <elliott> Gregor: What size are the favicons now?
05:55:32 <zzo38> elliott: Sometimes I watch the spider outside. But not always.
05:55:40 <Gregor> 32x32. They should be closer to 24x24, but I'll let quintopia judge.
05:55:49 <elliott> quintopia: You'll want to make it 32x32 or slightly smaller and have a square hole in there.
05:56:05 <elliott> Gregor: Err, will you be able to blend this with the favicon easily?
05:56:11 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe use GD or something on a codu.org URL?
05:56:25 <zzo38> Make big hole that the world can go through by following rules of Einstein relativistic
05:56:27 <Gregor> I COULD layer it client-side, but yukk.
05:56:50 <catseye> zzo38: where would we end up?
05:57:00 <catseye> i need to know for my report.
05:57:01 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
05:57:12 <elliott> catseye: the land of giant spiders
05:57:17 <elliott> where you make your own physics
05:57:38 <zzo38> catseye: I don't know. Do you mean if you make a big hole like I described?
05:57:55 <Gregor> elliott: What's taking so long right now is I decided you should get knocked back a bit when an enemy hits you, just to piss everyone off :P
05:58:05 <elliott> Gregor: Define knocked back a bit.
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05:58:54 <catseye> zzo38: yes. what's on the other side of the hole? perhaps we won't know until we actually go through it.
05:58:56 <elliott> Gregor: By the way, you might want to handle iframes in some way.
05:58:59 <quintopia> elliott: link the google favicon extractor again plox
05:59:03 <elliott> Gregor: You can access their document object, right?
05:59:07 <elliott> quintopia: it doesn't really work
05:59:18 <zzo38> catseye: The other side of the orbit of the Earth.
05:59:24 <quintopia> i just want to see if it works on *one page*
05:59:31 <quintopia> if it doesn't *really* work that's fine
06:00:03 <elliott> quintopia: http://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=DOM
06:00:15 <catseye> zzo38: so if it is fall here, would it be spring there?
06:00:26 <elliott> Gregor: What you really need is space-eating enemies that eat elements on the page and, when you hit the evil anti-matter they leave behind, you get hurtz.
06:00:47 <Gregor> elliott: Nothing I can do for him.
06:01:04 <zzo38> catseye: I guess so.
06:01:43 <elliott> Gregor: "Time of death, @250."
06:01:48 <elliott> Gregor: (If you get that I approve)
06:02:02 <Gregor> Bleh, my knockback = fail for some reason :(
06:02:16 <Gregor> elliott: You were combining my heart monitor with our scoring system ... how could I possibly not get that?
06:02:25 <catseye> Actualluy, the other thing I realized is that employer totally wants me to attend PyCon next year, and that I totally could. It would be like my own personal "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas^W^WAtlanta, Georgia"...
06:02:41 <elliott> catseye: that just sounds like... bad
06:02:49 <elliott> catseye: if you do it, you totally have to write a novel of it
06:02:54 <elliott> make sure to take lots and lots of drugs first
06:03:38 <catseye> elliott: People at work are apparently connected. I could totally schmooze my way into one of the cool PSF-only parties.
06:03:51 <elliott> catseye: please tell me those don't exist.
06:04:02 <catseye> elliott: I WAS FRIGHTENED TOO
06:04:11 <elliott> catseye: no wait. you're not joking?
06:04:22 <elliott> catseye: i... no but do they really
06:04:25 <elliott> do you know that they exist
06:04:40 <catseye> i mean, i have only second-hand accounts, but, no reason to doubt them.
06:05:15 <elliott> catseye: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAthank god for Apex eh
06:06:19 <catseye> and, if i go, thank god nobody knows who i am.
06:06:58 <catseye> i ... honestly have a hard time envisioning myself surviving the thing
06:07:22 <elliott> catseye: will The Guido be there
06:07:26 <catseye> all those... "Pythonistas"... taking it all so... *seriously*...
06:07:35 <catseye> elliott: from what i understand, yes, he attends
06:07:45 <elliott> in a strictly sensitive and non-offensive manner.
06:08:09 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, how do you do the initial img-detection? I assume you know that jQuery has stuff to do that? :P
06:08:32 <Gregor> jQuery has godawfully slow stuff to do that.
06:08:34 <elliott> Based on some getElementsBySelector thing which is supposedly stupendously fast for some reason.
06:08:42 <elliott> Gregor: Orly? I remember reading that it was unreasonably fast.
06:09:09 <Gregor> Oh, I should mention: I do this as part of my general platform detection, which has to go over every element anyway.
06:09:30 <Gregor> So selectors help me roughly none.
06:09:43 <Gregor> elliott: 'twould be even slower with jQuery, as I have learned by ... using jQuery to do it :P
06:10:09 <elliott> Gregor: The answer is TRACETAMARINV8
06:11:07 <Gregor> As an added bonus, you bounce off of enemies now :P
06:11:15 <elliott> Gregor: Totally doing it now.
06:11:58 <elliott> Gregor: Just let it stack up :P
06:12:34 <elliott> Gregor: Why not? If you make it 1/4 or 1/5 chance of getting 1 HP when killing an enemy...
06:12:47 <elliott> Gregor: OK compromise: Max HP as a function of images/total.
06:13:00 <Gregor> That makes more sense ... but for the moment Idonwanna X-P
06:13:05 <Gregor> I want to PLAY, not keep hacking X-P
06:13:14 <quintopia> yay these favicons are gonna be so cute staggering around
06:13:34 <elliott> Gregor: It uh... it actually feels bad having HP.
06:13:37 <elliott> Like you've ruined the skill element.
06:14:13 <Gregor> elliott: I HATE YOU WITH HATE
06:14:24 <elliott> Gregor: Sorry dude, it just does :P
06:14:59 <zzo38> Then remove the HP
06:15:11 <elliott> Gregor: I mean... it's only HavenWorks where it seems even vaguely needed, and HavenWorks should be near-impossible, dammit :P
06:16:05 <Gregor> Considering that I can't seem to get any HP boosts regardless, maybe it doesn't matter X-D
06:16:38 <Gregor> wtf, is there a bug preventing me from ever actually getting more HP ...
06:17:51 <elliott> Gregor: It just wouldn't feel like I've really won, you know?
06:17:54 <elliott> Like getting all but one image. :P
06:18:12 <Gregor> elliott: I REFUSE TO REMOVE IT AFTER YOU BITCHED SO MUCH ABOUT IT
06:18:21 <elliott> Gregor: WALLOW IN YOUR LIES THEN
06:19:16 <elliott> Gregor: The bouncing thing is good though.
06:19:36 <pikhq> Whoa. In 1968, North Korea captured the Pueblo. It remains a comissioned vessel of the Navy to this day. Making it the only Navy ship held captive.
06:19:58 <pikhq> Hooray, absurdly long wars.
06:20:24 <elliott> Gregor: I... a monster walked into me and I just bounced off.
06:20:49 <quintopia> Gregor: you added bouncing? :D :D :D :D
06:21:37 <Gregor> I have no idea what that means.
06:21:46 <elliott> Gregor: I... remove HP dude.
06:22:01 <Gregor> elliott: Oh, you bounced off and didn't lose HP? Did the monster disappear?
06:22:03 <quintopia> Gregor: holding down up while killing an enemy auto-jumps
06:22:14 <elliott> quintopia: It jumps whether you want to or not.
06:22:18 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, uh, yeah, HP :(
06:22:31 <Gregor> elliott: Did the monster disappear?
06:22:42 <elliott> Remove HP it's for loser fags.
06:23:16 <quintopia> hey you remember that time when elliott was all "ADD HP PLOX" and i was like "I LIKE INSTA-DEATH" and he was like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
06:23:26 <Gregor> quintopia: That's how I remember it.
06:23:30 <elliott> quintopia is totally the games designer here REMOVE HP
06:24:05 <zzo38> (Maybe you can put pH?)
06:24:11 <Gregor> zzo38: Have you even played it? X-P
06:24:26 <catseye> zzo38: Hey! That one was totally mine! See last night's logs.
06:24:34 <quintopia> Gregor: don't dyke out the HP code, just have it turned off for image collection.
06:24:44 <elliott> quintopia: Why not? It'll be in the VCS history...
06:24:47 <quintopia> i can foresee scenarios where baddies are so tough to kill we need HP
06:24:49 <elliott> No point leaving dead code around.
06:25:04 <Gregor> I hate you all. With hatred.
06:25:10 <elliott> Gregor: I love how I can drop below a platform, get something, and then just jump back up on top of it.
06:25:17 <Gregor> I'm leaving the code in because it involved paring out damage dealing, which is good anyway.
06:25:27 <elliott> I could fall beneath a steel platform, pick up an image just above some lava, and then just somehow HOP BACK UP ONTO THE PLATFORM.
06:25:33 <elliott> Gregor: Just remove the display and gaining then :P
06:25:58 <catseye> elliott: you sound just like a scientologist
06:26:13 <elliott> quintopia: I don't think you understand how VCSes work.
06:26:13 <catseye> i picked up an image just above some lava once.
06:26:28 <elliott> quintopia: See, you can get code out of their history without cluttering up the present revision with it unnecessarily.
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06:26:49 <quintopia> elliott: i don't think you understand how making options be available to turn on when another game that needs them comes around works
06:26:51 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> Night all * Sgeo_ has joined #esoteric
06:27:05 <elliott> quintopia: I thought you were doing the design and Gregor doing the code.
06:27:13 <elliott> Orr are you now the overbearing project manager :P
06:27:23 <HackEgo> 247|<Sgeo> Night all * Sgeo_ has joined #esoteric
06:27:25 <Gregor> quintopia is doing ideas too.
06:27:40 <Gregor> quintopia's ideas are given higher priority because he's drawing too :P
06:27:46 <Sgeo> Great, I'm laughing too hard to fall asleep
06:27:48 <HackEgo> 246|<ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
06:28:09 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
06:28:15 <HackEgo> 247|<Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
06:28:41 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:28:50 <elliott> stop, it's repo surgery time
06:28:53 <elliott> this could all go horribly wrong
06:29:19 <elliott> Gregor: codu.org is like supa slow
06:29:23 <elliott> at least http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:29:34 <HackEgo> 247|<Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
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06:30:25 <quintopia> i had an idea for another powerup that would be really awesome early
06:31:20 <quintopia> Grappling hook gun, Metroid style!
06:31:26 <quintopia> to jungle swing from here to there
06:31:48 <elliott> It's like grappling hooks but more awesome because the rope bends in crazy manners.
06:32:14 <elliott> quintopia: it's not too powerful
06:32:29 <elliott> but with a lot of practice it's sweet
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06:33:34 <elliott> internally the rope is divided into N px segments i think 8 or 16
06:33:48 <elliott> and then each of them can bend according to the position of the player, what it's attached to, and what objects are in the way
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06:33:57 <elliott> (in fact it can go through too-thin walls due to the pixel size...)
06:34:11 <quintopia> you can use it over and over and over!
06:34:11 <elliott> and then you have to handle bouncing off walls and floor
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06:34:31 <elliott> two, seriously, you have no idea how hard using it effectively is
06:34:38 <catseye> codu.org just ATED GREGOR AND HACKEGO
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06:34:50 <elliott> like 95% of online worming is rope-based because it's so tricky
06:34:57 <quintopia> even just basic simple not-using-the-full-power-of-it movement is too powerful
06:35:06 <elliott> for some definition of too powerful
06:35:38 <elliott> Spiderwoman that is. What?
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06:36:20 <zzo38> Is there a faster way of receiving quote.db file?
06:36:38 <Gregor> I'm taking down the bots again, they're exacerbating the problem.
06:36:48 <elliott> Gregor: But I need to do repo surgery!
06:37:01 <elliott> The quotes are CHRONOLOGICALLY INACCURATE
06:38:27 <Gregor> Nope. It stands united with the rest of me.
06:39:17 <elliott> Gregor: So "nope" was inaccurate.
06:39:17 * Gregor now waits to see if anything is going to work again ...
06:39:25 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, you're being a totally great advertisement for prgmr :P
06:39:36 <Gregor> It only sucks ... recently?
06:39:40 <elliott> "It goes really slow and breaks on a frequent basis and I have no idea why! Then it goes back to normal again!"
06:39:55 <Gregor> It's not on a frequent basis, it's been bad for about a month straight.
06:39:58 <Gregor> Before that, clear sailing.
06:40:05 <elliott> Gregor: Frequent in that month, I mean.
06:40:15 <Gregor> It's been pretty much constant, not frequent :P
06:40:31 <elliott> I'd just colo but EXPENSE.
06:41:33 <zzo38> OK now I managed to get copy of "quote.db" file
06:45:16 * Gregor sobs in prgmr's general direction.
06:47:39 <Gregor> It's also pretty awesome that the moment HackEgo comes back up you queue like 50 commands X_X
06:48:09 <elliott> pikhq: "With Release 33-9117, the SEC is considering substitution of Python or another programming language for legal English as a basis for some of its regulations."
06:48:24 <elliott> Gregor: blame Sgeo; I added two quotes then used `help
06:48:35 <elliott> both addquotes finished before the help
06:48:38 <elliott> oh, I also looked up one quote
06:48:50 <elliott> sgeo queued up like three quote lookups while I asked for help for apparently no reason
06:51:52 <Gregor> That "you" was not you (elliott), it was you (#esoteric)
06:52:05 <elliott> Gregor: I am one with #esoteric.
06:52:24 <elliott> Why? Because it's 6:51 mother-a-fucking-m
06:57:53 <Gregor> Damn it prgmr, it should not take more than 5 minutes to boot.
06:58:27 <elliott> Gregor: IT'S BECAUSE THE SERVERS ARE ACTUALLY 386S LOL
06:59:09 <elliott> i swear i'm going only slightly crazloly.
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07:04:08 <catseye> elliott: "With Release 33-9117, the SEC [...]" ... are you fucking serious or is this another one of those "nukes -- powered by perl!" things?
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07:05:12 <Gregor> catseye: That is fully serious.
07:05:31 <Gregor> It's especially wonderful that they chose a language with no official semantics, formal or otherwise!
07:07:25 <Gregor> OK, websplat is back up to date (finally)
07:07:53 <catseye> It's like Hax0r Econom1st has come true. Well, more true.
07:09:16 <elliott> SO HOW DO THE PYTHON LAWS MEANT TO WORK
07:09:18 <elliott> SORRY MY CAPS LOCK IS ON NOW
07:09:27 <elliott> BEACUSE I WON'T PRESS THE BUTTON TO FIX ITSELF OFF
07:10:22 <catseye> ELLIOTT: THEY WORK BY MONKEYPATCHING MOSTLY
07:11:10 <elliott> CATSEYE: DOESN'T MONKEYPACTHING NOT SO COMMON IN PYTHON REALLY
07:12:03 <catseye> ELLIOTT NOT QUITE SO COMMON AS IT IS IN RUBY I GATHER BUT IT HAPPENS
07:12:44 <catseye> IN RUBY YOU WOULD OPEN UP THE ROOT OF THE LAW HIERARCHY TO MODIFY THE LAW AND ALL ITS SUBLAWS YEAAAH
07:13:44 <catseye> They could have had the decency to say "Prolog". Then I wouldn't hate them nearly so much.
07:14:51 <Gregor> As terrifying a notion as it is, JavaScript would have been a better option (it has a rather-complete specification, albeit a horrifying one)
07:15:29 <elliott> IT'S NOT NEARLY OAKY ENOUGH
07:16:06 <Gregor> What's important here is having specifiable behavior, not ... oakiness ...
07:17:18 <catseye> I want them to do this, and for the meaning of some part to be brought into question, so they turn to the docs, and the docs are ambiguous, so they turn to CPython, and CPython *CRASHES*.
07:17:26 <catseye> That will make the dark part of me very, very happy.
07:17:44 <elliott> IS J'APPROVE EVEN RIGHT PROPER
07:17:46 <Gregor> Note: They will never turn to the docs.
07:17:57 <elliott> ESTABLISHING PYTHON PRECEDENT
07:18:01 <elliott> AND CPYTHON WILL -- BY LAW --
07:18:09 <elliott> BE OBLIGATED TO OBEY THESE PRECEDENTS
07:18:17 <elliott> SO WE'LL HAVE TONS OF COMMITS GOING
07:18:24 <elliott> "AS PER BUTTFUCKER VS MUTTMUCKER, ..."
07:18:46 <Gregor> Yeah, I don't see that happening :P
07:20:40 <quintopia> Gregor: http://filebin.ca/kfemmz/iconbodyl0.png.tar.gz
07:21:06 <quintopia> i think the ideal order for animation is 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,0,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,...
07:21:22 <Gregor> Just when I thought I was freeeee
07:21:28 <quintopia> and i put 3 green dots in each one so you can calculate where to put the favicon
07:21:38 <quintopia> you'll want to remove them once you've figured it out
07:21:54 <elliott> GREGOR: I DONT SEE YOUR FACE HAPPENING EITHER REALLY.
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07:22:08 <quintopia> what i see: cruise control for cool
07:23:27 <Gregor> Contrary to popular misconception, the /sustain pedal/ is the cruise control for cool.
07:24:07 <elliott> QUINTOPIA: AT 7:23 AM NOBODY TURNS OFF CAPSLOCK
07:24:18 <elliott> <elliott> SORRY MY CAPS LOCK IS ON NOW
07:24:18 <elliott> <elliott> BEACUSE I WON'T PRESS THE BUTTON TO FIX ITSELF OFF
07:24:32 <quintopia> elliott: it's only 02:23. you can turn it off now.
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07:24:48 <elliott> GOOD THING I DONT LIEV IN COMMUNIST TMIE ZONE LIKE AMERICA
07:25:09 <quintopia> you said "i really need to go to bed"
07:25:15 <zzo38> Communist time zone??
07:25:18 <quintopia> or maybe it was "how much more annoying can i get?"
07:26:04 <elliott> QUINTOPIA: PROB. NOT AS ANNOYING AS YOU BUT I'LL TRY
07:26:10 <zzo38> What does it mean for timezones to be communist?
07:26:22 <elliott> ZZO38: I REALLY WISH I KNEW.
07:26:28 <elliott> ALSO: WHY LATENESS IMPLIES CAPSLOCK. ANOTHER THING I WANT TO KNOW.
07:27:06 <zzo38> Then figure it out.
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07:27:26 <elliott> CATSEYE: http://www.itworld.com/government/105031/will-wall-street-require-python
07:28:02 <elliott> "Something like this--perhaps in Java or Perl or Ocaml rather than Python--will happen, sooner or later." HAHAHAHA PERL LAWS
07:28:07 <elliott> I CAN SEE NO ISSUES WITH THIS IDEA
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07:47:31 <elliott> Gregor: THIS MAY HELP http://sizzlejs.com/
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07:48:38 <catseye> elliott who is not here that is likely the single horriblest article i have ever readed good night
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07:58:34 <Gregor> Feh, was hoping I could get the favicon to sit in the right place on the client.
07:58:38 <Gregor> But at least Chrome seems to unreliable.
07:59:02 <Gregor> Oh well, to the server side it goes.
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08:01:08 <Gregor> Well, if it was done on the client, I wouldn't have to trust clients not to send me nasty URL requests and thereby DOS me :(
08:07:41 <Gregor> I am made of fail, but the web is made of win!
08:11:06 <Gregor> quintopia: How sure are you about that order? :P
08:12:13 <quintopia> well, there are other orders that could work too...that one just amused me the most
08:12:29 <quintopia> works best if mob moves REALLY SLOW
08:28:26 <Gregor> Take that, hats wearing hats!
08:28:29 <Gregor> YOU DON'T BELONG IN THIS WORLD
08:31:20 <quintopia> Gregor: there seems to be a puddle of piss around dead you. is this correct?
08:32:05 <quintopia> must be an artifact of your crazy weird background
08:32:29 <quintopia> anyway, the teetering animation should go slightly faster and the mob should move slightly slower
08:33:36 <quintopia> AND IF IT IS NOT TOO DIFFICULT his acceleration should go up and down cyclically at the same frequency of the animation cycle
08:34:28 <Gregor> That would be way too difficult >_>
08:34:36 <Gregor> Too difficult for 3:30AM.
08:36:06 <quintopia> how difficult would it be to apply brownian motion with hard limits to his acceleration at each tick? then you don't have to think about frequency...
08:37:53 <quintopia> brownian motion is significantly easier to implement than periodic acceleration changes!
08:38:14 <Gregor> It's more difficult to implement than sleep.
08:39:06 <quintopia> anyway it's a lot better, and the splat dogs look great
08:39:28 <quintopia> but IT WOULD BE BETTER IF FAVICON DUDE WANDERING ACCELERATION
08:42:10 <quintopia> especially dying on the upward part of trajectory
08:43:33 <quintopia> AND YAY MOBS FALLING OFF PLATFORMS!
08:47:22 <quintopia> did that skulldog just turn around JUST to bite me?
08:48:43 <quintopia> oh no it was just an invisible wall
08:51:43 <quintopia> Gregor: try it on ballerinamafia.net. the face points the wrong way, so the favicon mobs are moonwalking!
08:53:58 <quintopia> actually, they only moonwalk to the left
08:54:33 <quintopia> so, shouldn't your favicon->mob converted horizontally flip the favicon in one of the directions?
08:54:42 <Gregor> Can you draw the favicon guy with just the hat crushed onto the body?
08:54:49 <Gregor> So the favicon itself would be obscured/
08:54:55 <Gregor> (For dead favicon guy)
08:55:04 <Gregor> Maybe just the legs sticking out or something :P
08:55:26 <quintopia> oh, i was gonna have dead favicon guy be the same, except with the body horizontal
08:55:44 <quintopia> if the favicon isn't actually there in the dead one, you don't have to convert it
08:56:02 <Gregor> Well, that's not a big deal really.
08:56:12 <Gregor> I just think it would be amusing if the hat was crushed over the body :P
08:56:51 <quintopia> but i can move the hat down a bunch so you get the same effect
08:57:48 <Gregor> Define what you mean by "convert"?
08:57:54 <Gregor> Do you mean I'd have to rotate or something?
08:57:57 <Gregor> 'cuz this is all client side.
08:59:09 <quintopia> so "the web is made of win" means you figured out how to do it clientside i guess
08:59:30 <Gregor> It's better that way, it really is.
09:00:07 <quintopia> is it? imagemagicking with php was always p damn fast for me
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09:02:49 <quintopia> reflection is possible clientside!
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10:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It occurs to me that Freespace 2 might simply be punishing me for having a computer with a crappy GPU...
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12:13:41 <nooga> http://www.mercurynews.com/san-jose-neighborhoods/ci_16401891?nclick_check=1
12:13:55 <nooga> $3k for a stupid buffer overflow?
12:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Calling Nokia Japanese may actually make a Finn materialize from thin air to correct you.]] — TV Tropes
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13:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, do you often materialise out of thin air to correct people about Nokia's place of origin?
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13:32:45 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: We have this sort of nation-wide round-robin scheduler for that, so it's not more oftener than a couple of times a month.
13:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Watching Gregor's corpse freefall is surprisingly relaxing.
13:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It aggregates this little cloud of favigoombas and bonedogs beneath it.
14:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> lifthrasiir, well, there are some pages I've never won.
14:20:20 <lifthrasiir> well I just refer to the image shown on the victory
14:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> lifthrasiir, try it on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_townlands_of_County_Cork.
14:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It's 5600 lines long, and all the images are at the top or bottom.
14:38:47 <lifthrasiir> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_operator every formula is also images.
14:39:37 <Ilari> Big Rigs. Rating: 1.0 - Abysmal. :-)
14:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> That was just because they couldn't give it 0, wasn't it?
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14:43:02 <lifthrasiir> Phantom_Hoover: They should have give it -inf (as a signaling NaN) indeed
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14:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's one of those weird verbs which is different in the pluperfect to the perfect.
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15:30:03 <catseye> Damn you, Phantom_Hoover. I read the log to get the context for that, and there WAS NONE.
15:31:28 <olsner> aha, so the context *is* in the log, you just have to read further back
15:32:34 <catseye> ok. Tree-based VM sounds like it is in a grey area between VM and AST walker, anyway, and I was wondering if you had heard of the technique of AST threading.
15:32:54 <catseye> (i.e. catseye just decided to proceed WITHOUT context.)
15:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the general principle was that the memory was a tree rather than an array.
15:35:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And things would be done to the tree so that more things could be done.
15:35:07 <catseye> I assume a von Neumann architecture, where programs are stored in the tree too?
15:35:11 <olsner> if you don't assume that pointers are indices in an array, isn't the heap always a tree?
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15:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I could go down the "ultra-pure" alley by making the tree the _only_ data structure, but that's too far, really.
15:41:10 <catseye> If you do that, make sure to not distinguish between left and right subtrees.
15:41:35 <catseye> Orientation is impure, you see.
15:41:55 <Phantom_Hoover> To what extent can one do things with self-modification?
15:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if a program is encoded into the tree and there is a single instruction, which shifts a subtree, can you do anything interesting with that?
15:44:00 <catseye> But without knowing how execution proceeds on a tree, it's hard to visualize.
15:45:37 <catseye> I'll keep the idea warm 'til you get back.
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16:36:35 <elliott> Things that aren't popular enough: ILP64
16:37:03 <elliott> Although really it should be S32ILP64
16:37:07 <elliott> And, uh, have a 16-bit "short short".
16:41:30 <elliott> Wowzers, it is so totally non-trivial to get OS X in VirtualBox.
16:41:32 <olsner> I would like to see something like ILP32 but using the amd64 instruction set
16:42:23 <catseye> elliott: NetBSD. I have 50 minutes to try.
16:42:41 <catseye> then i have to leave to meet someone downtown...
16:42:54 <catseye> and i won't be back until... ?
16:43:01 <elliott> catseye: that ? is very vague :P
16:43:01 <catseye> so, might as well start, i think.
16:43:06 <elliott> catseye: lololol good luck :P
16:43:18 <elliott> FFSv2 = 64-bit FFSv1 + journaling, your call
16:43:26 <elliott> needed for partitions >1 TiB "but yeah".
16:43:31 <elliott> journaling. but uh FFSv1 is the default.
16:43:36 <elliott> catseye: also when it seems like the installer didn't accept your option
16:43:43 <elliott> if it put you to the "exit this configuration" thing
16:43:45 <elliott> it means it listened to you
16:43:58 <elliott> if you need to resize partitions
16:44:00 <elliott> don't do it in the installer.
16:44:11 <elliott> catseye: also get that usb stick with the guide and shit on. :P
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17:02:01 <cheater99> if you have a data type made out of multiple other datatypes, how do you call it?
17:02:29 <cheater99> say an object that has an int, a hash, and a Factory in it
17:02:58 <cheater99> they all coexist at the same time (and are necessary for the big object's existence)
17:03:02 <elliott> and never was he seen again
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17:12:37 <catseye> elliott: it is installed. but that is about all i can say for now.
17:12:46 <catseye> it doesn't see my network adapter, alas.
17:12:52 <elliott> catseye: tried the guide? :P
17:13:06 <catseye> not yet. wanted to make sure it didn't fux0r windows, for one thing.
17:13:35 <elliott> catseye: so the bootloader installed properly?
17:13:40 <catseye> also, guide i saved -- in html. will be a pain to read
17:13:55 <catseye> "NetBSD -- because you want your computer to feel like a toaster"
17:14:06 <elliott> catseye: well. you're in windows right?
17:14:12 <elliott> catseye: install w3m in cygwin
17:14:13 <catseye> i kept the FreeBSD MBR bootblock that is on this machine
17:14:19 <elliott> w3m -dump the_file >the_text_file
17:14:35 <elliott> probably want to do it to the pkgsrc one too
17:14:39 <catseye> i will probably study the guide 'offline' for a bit first, but yes, that's a good idea.
17:15:28 <catseye> i wonder if i can download some pkgsrc pkgs while in windows and stick them on the usb drive first too, so that i have some tools that don't make me fnargle when i try to use them.
17:16:01 <elliott> you know what ~ means right?
17:16:16 <catseye> like the motion of a hand going ~ ?
17:16:24 <elliott> it is meant to evoke a gesture
17:16:29 <elliott> if you try and look at it, mentally
17:16:33 <elliott> it's not one a human could actually do
17:17:16 <elliott> <luser> I'm just going to copy the apt index and the 20 packages over that I need to get my winmodem working, and then boot the Fedora LiveCD.
17:17:27 <elliott> <catseye> luser: ok... that's a bit... well... um... ~
17:18:30 <elliott> first actual TCP/IP networking section in the manual
17:18:36 <elliott> 24.3. Connecting to the Internet with a modem
17:18:41 <elliott> catseye: just thought you should now
17:18:49 <elliott> just sure exactly *which* one you want actually
17:18:53 <elliott> "24.4. Creating a small home network"?
17:19:36 <catseye> well remember, I have run BSD at home before. for a long time.
17:19:47 <catseye> this is not totally alien territory
17:20:51 <catseye> as for tools, it's mainly that i don't like vi
17:22:05 <catseye> and since ifconfig doesn't *list* any network devices besides lo0, i kind of know where i stand with that, anyway
17:23:16 <elliott> netbsd seems especially crazy
17:23:44 <elliott> catseye: i'm fine with vi as long as i can use the arrow keys and ^C instead of escape
17:23:55 <elliott> when either one of those doesn't work i become suicidal
17:25:28 <catseye> got to be going now, but will adventure further with this, probably tonight.
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17:47:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Since a non-trivial zero with real part /= 1/2 is a disproof, so if there are no disproofs of it, then it must be true.
17:47:34 <elliott> it's obvious it can't be unprovable
17:48:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, he made a joke.
17:49:17 <elliott> DMM needs to teach maths and science. desperately.
17:50:07 <elliott> Well, okay, so it is in the first paragraph of his Wikipedia article.
17:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And he's stated he works in image processing in the annotations at least once.
17:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (He was showing off an edge-finding algorithm he found.)
17:51:41 <elliott> link? HAHA YOU HAVE TO FIND IT NOW
17:55:15 <Gregor> elliott: Look at the new favicon goombas.
17:55:26 <elliott> Gregor: What total size are they?
17:56:12 <elliott> I was expecting something like a square with legs below it and arms left and right
17:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/Essay:_10_telltale_signs_you_are_on_your_way_to_becoming_an_atheist_nerd
17:56:30 <elliott> not some hideous mutant favicon creature that looks like a headless body below something irrelevant
17:56:52 <Gregor> elliott: Depends on the favicon :P
17:57:10 <elliott> Especially with codu.org because the hat has a fucking hat.
17:57:17 <elliott> Also they move far too slowly, waht's with that?
17:57:24 <elliott> They were much faster before.
17:58:06 <elliott> Did I mention they're terrible and you should feel bad?
17:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> The hat with a hat is awesome. Do not pretend otherwise.
17:58:34 <Gregor> I think they're made of 100% pure win.
17:58:52 <elliott> Gregor: 'Sok, I'll just upload WebSplak 1.0.
17:58:59 <elliott> It's exactly like WebSplat except one revision earlier.
17:59:17 <elliott> Gregor: You fail horribly. Alt-tabbing away no longer pauses the game.
17:59:25 <elliott> I suggest you rollback to whatever fixes both that and the now-terrible favicons :P
17:59:41 <Gregor> How the hell did that happen???
18:00:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Gregor, take the atheist nerd test while playing WebSplat.
18:00:24 <Gregor> elliott: In spite of your idiocy, an "emergency rollback" would not remove the awesome new goombas.
18:00:33 <Gregor> Since I made a lot of speed fixes for Firefox later which probably broke that.
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18:00:48 <elliott> Gregor: Well... roll back that one too, just to be sure.
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18:01:31 <Gregor> elliott: I'll say it again, this time with flare: fuck you.
18:01:42 <elliott> Gregor: Also you have rabies.
18:02:08 <elliott> Gregor: And, uh, I think you mean flair.
18:04:33 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I died because I was within a few pixels of the goomba.
18:04:41 <elliott> Gregor: I'm pretty sure it's because the hat sticks out.
18:07:23 <elliott> That's because you're a commie.
18:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I was 5 images from completing WP's Pythagoras' theorem article and I died because my head was near its feet.
18:16:13 <elliott> Gregor: 476@1242D, and I died by not walking in to a dog.
18:16:18 <elliott> Gregor: Your collision detection sucks.
18:18:38 <elliott> felt like you lost after one hit
18:19:37 <elliott> Gregor: is collision detection always with the biggest form of your character?
18:19:43 <elliott> because when you walk you're a lot wider!
18:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> isthatcherdeadyet's favigoombas are quite entertaining.
18:23:43 <elliott> 287@393D, fuck this collision detection.
18:24:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wow, they really hate thatcher. personally. a lot. don't they
18:25:22 <Gregor> elliott: A) You're the same width walking as jumping and standing.
18:25:30 <Gregor> elliott: B) It's always with the current image size.
18:25:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i'm unable to conjure up such vitrolic hate for a politician considering how slim the spectrum is.
18:25:46 <elliott> and, uh, at least we survived.
18:26:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also: i don't like celebrating the death of anyone.
18:26:19 <elliott> or the misfortune of anyone.
18:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, I suppose we who weren't there when she was in charge wouldn't have the same vitriol for her.
18:27:05 <elliott> heh, they're both north-easterners. LIKE ME (not really)
18:27:15 <elliott> (i've just lived here approximately all my life, doesn't mean I'm One Of Them!)
18:27:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't wish Bush would die or anything either.
18:28:12 <elliott> He's a fucking moron and he did a great job of ruining the USA's semi-sanity and prosperity, but I wouldn't wish anything like that on him. Certainly he should be punished, jailed, but...
18:28:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. But still.
18:28:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, she devastated whole communities, ruined lives.
18:28:38 <elliott> No, I can't imagine it. They'd have to blow up the country to make me wish for their death, most likely.
18:28:49 <elliott> I am the disgustingly forgiving liberal type though.
18:29:16 <elliott> http://www.tit-wank.com/ what a domain name to host mailing lists on.
18:29:40 <elliott> 1,015.0 MiB of 3.1 GiB (31.84%) - 6 hours remaining
18:30:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, accounts I've read elsewhere in the webosphere from people who were on the receiving end of her policies do seem to justify such hatred.
18:31:11 <elliott> I get it, Thatcher destroyed the country.
18:32:10 <Gregor> Compare Thatcher to Palin, then go "OH THANK GOD WE GOT THATCHER"
18:32:28 <elliott> thatcher was probably worse.
18:32:37 <Gregor> Palin hasn't had any actual position of power.
18:32:48 <Gregor> Palin is ACTIVELY incompetent though.
18:32:55 <Gregor> She wouldn't just sit on her hands going "Idonnowtf"
18:33:00 <Gregor> She would break everything.
18:33:06 <elliott> She was a moron who didn't think properly.
18:33:11 <elliott> And she was selfish, greedy, etc.
18:33:27 <elliott> But I cannot believe that she actively tried to destroy the UK for the sheer hell of it.
18:33:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It really doesn't.
18:33:36 <elliott> Evil is a very specific thing and it is not carelessness, selfishness, or greed.
18:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Hitler was arguably not evil by that definition, though.
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18:34:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Well. Only arguably.
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18:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, Freespace 2 is a textbook example of Greenspun's Tenth Rule.
18:38:12 <Gregor> elliott: There, I made the standing bounding box more precise.
18:38:55 <Gregor> Mind you, the collision detection will ALWAYS be box-box.
18:40:38 <elliott> ...things that are ridiculous: URL shortener administrators can get their servers suspended because *someone else* used them to *create a URL* to something illegal.
18:40:51 <elliott> How to destroy a URL shortener: Link it to copyrighted material, child porn, etc.; publicise links.
18:41:22 <elliott> ("I was arrested for copyright infringement and possession of child pornography!")
18:41:47 <elliott> ("Now I'm in jail for life and have to pay £1,000,000,000. Oh, and there's some community service for the child porn, too."
18:45:20 <elliott> 1.1 GiB of 3.1 GiB (34.48%) - 5 hours remaining
18:45:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MAKE IT GO FASTER
18:45:32 <Gregor> elliott: I don't HAVE polygons. I have sprites and boxes.
18:45:41 <elliott> Gregor: Your face doesn't have polygons.
18:46:03 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, you do know that the usual game programming trick is to do collisions on boxes slightly *smaller* than each sprite?
18:46:07 <elliott> Gregor: That produces much better results.
18:46:19 <Gregor> elliott: I did not know, that, but consider it known now, lesse...
18:46:31 <elliott> Gregor: In this case, I'd say the box would, for the player, not include the hat, and not include... uh, the nose or anything.
18:46:38 <elliott> Also, if the chest pokes out a little -- I don't recall -- that wouldn't be in it.
18:46:46 <elliott> Also shoes, if the shoes poke out; the poking-out bit you wouldn't include.
18:46:56 <elliott> Don't have to do anything to the bottom since if that hits an enemy you'll kill it anyway.
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18:54:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have an important, Scotland-related question.
18:54:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you guys really put pizzas in batter and then fry them?
18:55:24 <zzo38> I read the article linked at the end of yesterday's log about Wall Street requiring Python.
18:56:50 <zzo38> It may be right that COBOL would be a good idea since it was designed for this purpose.
18:58:48 <zzo38> I don't know what would be the financial equivalent of "list comprehensions" or "co-routines". Do you have an idea?
18:59:27 <elliott> I'm not even sure how law-code is meant to work.
19:03:47 <zzo38> I don't know how you are supposed to "substitution of Python or another programming language for legal English as a basis for some of its regulations". I wonder if a literate programming language might work better here (even literate Haskell??)
19:05:00 <cheater99> it's like i'm reading the ada wikipedia article
19:06:38 <zzo38> If this is done with some of these regulations, then some of the legal disputes can be solved by computer; but it would still take a judge to determine if it is necessary to change the law.
19:07:01 <Gregor> Oh, whew, just caching issues :P
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19:07:17 <Gregor> elliott: I was on a ... rather severe diet.
19:07:22 <Gregor> (Image width was set to something silly)
19:07:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, eat some battered pizza, it'll fatten you right up.
19:09:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I have often been told that *I* will be battered, but I suspect that to be a simple coincidence.
19:09:43 <elliott> battered fried phantom hoovers
19:09:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sexy, threatening or predictive?
19:10:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Right, the person saying it is in Glasgow.
19:10:06 <Gregor> elliott: Clear thine cache :P
19:10:13 <elliott> Gregor: Sexy, threatening, predictive anorexia.
19:10:24 <Phantom_Hoover> But they enjoy battering things in all sense of the word in Glasgow, so it's not a big deal.
19:10:47 <elliott> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=622130510713940545
19:10:55 <elliott> The story of Karen Carpenter's anorexia, told with Barbies.
19:11:58 <zzo38> Well..... I have had the idea of matrix accounting.......
19:12:10 <elliott> "...but that was in my irresponsible youth..."
19:12:43 <elliott> 74 KiB/s is not an acceptable speed!
19:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I always found the deep-fried Mars Bars considerably more distressing.
19:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Relevant and hilarious: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1227_041227_deep_fried_mars_bars.html
19:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The researchers discovered similarly bizarre examples of calorie-laden fast food cuisine, such as batter-fried ice cream, pizza, and pineapple rings. ]]
19:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I am informed that 20 years ago it was a commonplace occurrence in Edinburgh, too.
19:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The deep-fried Mars bar is believed to have originated in the northeast Scottish village of Stonehaven, following a bet struck between a chip shop owner and a customer. The Carron Fish and Chip Bar today sells as many as 300 deep-fried Mars bars a week. They cost 70 pence each (U.S. $1.38), or £1.70 (U.S. $3.30) when served with fries. ]]
19:16:08 <elliott> [[It’s also confusing a specific kind of piracy, (putting the entire work up online with proper attribution) to the kind of thing that is rather rampant for artists, namely, people stealing their work, and then the thieves remove the original artist’s name, and put THEIR name on it with THEIR copyright and say “don’t steal art”.]]
19:16:14 <Phantom_Hoover> [["Encouragingly, we did also find some evidence of the penetration of the Mediterranean diet into Scotland, albeit in the form of deep-fried pizza," said Petticrew, director of the social and public health services unit of the UK Medical Research Council, a government health research body. ]]
19:16:24 <elliott> The next person to conflate piracy with plagiarism will get their head raped by a mechanical chainsaw.
19:16:36 <elliott> Yes, a MECHANICAL chainsaw!
19:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> That quote is possibly the funniest thing I have read this week.
19:19:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How... encouraging?
19:20:04 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I always found the deep-fried Mars Bars considerably more distressing.
19:20:12 <elliott> I want to try one on a very deep level.
19:25:19 <zzo38> I still like matrix accounting and it is possible to make various equations with it........ Who guessed you might use Dirac notation in accounting, before?
19:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, you are now promoted to the status of "god among men".
19:27:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Congrats, you just gave zzo38 the ability to change matter at will.
19:28:43 <zzo38> That doesn't give me (or anyone else) "the ability to change matter at will".
19:29:19 <zzo38> Nor can I be any god, even if my title is "god among men".
19:29:35 <zzo38> That's just a title.
19:30:36 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, but you got promoted.
19:30:39 <elliott> You are now a literal god.
19:31:24 <zzo38> elliott: OK I don't hurt you.
19:31:37 <elliott> Let's just hope zzo38 doesn't find a way to rewrite how information is stored. I bet that would last six hundred years and they'd all suck.
19:35:20 <zzo38> No, actually I am not literal god. It is just a title.
19:37:59 <elliott> [[A hardened computer hacker has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that systematically destroys all the files on victims' PCs and replaces them with homemade manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Between 20,000 and 50,000 computers may have been infected.
19:38:00 <elliott> Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."]]
19:38:11 <elliott> lol: [[He was collared in 2008 for violating copyright laws by creating a computer virus that replaced data with an anime image. He was serving a suspended sentence for that offense when he was arrested in connection with the latest virus.]]
19:38:16 <elliott> I like how it was copyright infringement they got him for.
19:38:39 <zzo38> OK, now I have that title. Of course it doesn't mean anything.
19:38:50 <elliott> You just don't see the Esoterick Truth yet.
19:38:57 <elliott> It will reveal itself -- in time. Then: be careful.
19:40:45 <zzo38> Now I would see if I had win a big spider 2.9 times as big as I am.
19:40:57 <elliott> where does this big spider thing come from
19:41:19 <zzo38> It is just my own idea
19:45:11 <elliott> "When I was ill, I went looking for a doctor.
19:45:12 <elliott> I could not find anyone who did what I wanted.
19:45:12 <elliott> So I have worked to become the doctor I wanted to find."
19:46:20 <zzo38> elliott: That is one day, I guess, it might or might not work.
19:46:40 <zzo38> It might be good idea if you have no doctor, learn to be a doctor.
19:47:29 <elliott> zzo38: He had a perfectly good set of actual doctors at his disposal. What he wanted was a quack, and thus he has become a "naturopath", i.e. anti-scientific quack.
19:47:57 <elliott> The U.S. state of Maine, in its eternal helpful idiocy, has decided that this is enough to qualify one to be a doctor, and thus he is, actually, a "Dr.", but not a *doctor* in any real sense at all.
19:47:59 <zzo38> elliott: O, that is what he wanted.
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19:48:21 <zzo38> elliott: Then the state of Main is idiot.
19:49:47 <elliott> Well, insofar as a state can be an idiot.
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19:50:51 <Gregor> That was me switching back to my bouncer :P
19:51:09 <Gregor> Opinions on the new bounding box?
19:51:54 <elliott> Gregor: I will totally try it now
19:52:08 <Gregor> cheater99: Then play WebSplat instead?
19:52:10 <elliott> When I've tried it, all its fucks will be removed.
19:52:24 <Gregor> elliott: Should I rename it to Websplat to take advantage of the web-splat webs-plat ambiguity?
19:52:34 <elliott> Gregor: No, give it an actual name :P
19:52:46 <elliott> Gregor: Spiderman; you see, the web, spiders...
19:52:48 <Gregor> GregorKillsElliott: The Movie: The Game
19:52:53 <elliott> Gregor: It still doesn't pause by the way
19:53:01 <Gregor> If it doesn't, your cache is outdated.
19:53:06 <elliott> Also, uh, I'm anorexic. Yeah. Cache.
19:53:16 <elliott> gahahaha he fattens up when he falls
19:54:22 <elliott> Gregor: I half-wish I participated in such stupidity as Facebook just so I could play this on it...
19:54:39 <Gregor> elliott: It's ... scary on Facebook :P
19:54:47 <Gregor> It does in fact work, but there are some inaccessible images :(
19:55:04 <elliott> Gregor: Before long you'll be adding site-specific hacks :P
19:55:06 <cheater99> someone doesn't have friends to add
19:55:09 <elliott> Whoa, it's loading really slowly this time. Guess cause it's not cached.
19:55:29 <elliott> Gregor: It doesn't pause if you alt-tab *before* it's finished loading, FWIW.
19:55:31 <elliott> Not that that's a big deal.
19:55:48 <Gregor> Ohyeah, I guess it doesn't X-D
19:55:57 <Gregor> elliott: The other reason for slowness is that I don't have all the modules put in one file, so it has to download them and load them one-by-one.
19:56:04 <Gregor> When things are a bit more stable, I'll compile.
19:56:07 <elliott> Gregor: Umm, when I fall down on --
19:56:10 <elliott> the column with Pakistani Police
19:56:17 <elliott> When I get one of those icon images from below
19:56:20 <elliott> I sort of ... shake downwards.
19:56:59 <Gregor> Scroll-type shaking or avatar-type shaking? Also, have all the images finished downloading, sometimes things'll look weird before they do (for obvious reasons)
19:57:32 <elliott> Gregor: Like, I go up and down repeatedly while going down slowly.
19:57:42 <elliott> Like my character's jumping at LUDICROUS SPEED for a very short distance.
19:58:03 <elliott> Gregor: Ooh, also when I walk into "Religious" from standing on Afghanistan next to History.
19:58:13 <elliott> Gregor: (That's *after* I get rid of all the icons.)
19:58:56 <elliott> Gregor: It, uh, happens in most situations.
19:59:16 <Gregor> I didn't test this change on havenworks :P
20:01:11 <Gregor> I think I know the issue too.
20:03:31 <Gregor> Clearing cache is a bad idea when you're about to go to havenworks X_X
20:03:52 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, we need to preserve the current havenworks homepage.
20:04:15 <elliott> Admittedly it appears to have last been updated in 2009-03-31, but still.
20:04:16 <Gregor> I believe I fixed it, further testing ...
20:04:20 <elliott> Gregor: Doesn't store every day.
20:14:17 -!- elliott_ has joined.
20:14:23 <elliott_> Gregor: You broke my fucking interwebs.
20:14:36 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:14:39 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to alise.
20:14:40 <Gregor> I was wondering what window.disconnect() did.
20:14:55 <alise> "6 days remaining"
20:14:58 <alise> "7 days remaining"
20:15:02 <alise> MY TORRENT HATES YOU
20:15:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Vonlebio.
20:16:48 <Vonlebio> Dear god, this channel is full of 13-year-olds.
20:17:10 <alise> Did I mention labia?
20:17:36 <alise> Gregor: It still doesn't pause if you're tabbed away when it starts :P
20:17:46 <alise> Gregor: Uhh, dude, moving in a direction just makes me go fat.
20:17:54 <alise> Oh, now it doesn't.
20:17:56 <alise> That was awesome though.
20:18:43 <alise> Gregor: The bounding boxes seem better, but a hatted-favicon still killed me without strictly touching any part of me :P
20:18:44 <alise> Much better, though.
20:20:10 <alise> Gregor: Getting the little tag-icons from posts is much easier now. Thank god.
20:21:04 <Vonlebio> Is there an easy way to mass-move files?
20:21:30 <Gregor> alise: That was what happens when not all the images are downloaded ;)
20:21:34 <Gregor> Vonlebio: ... yes. mv *.foo foo/
20:21:47 <alise> Gregor: Surely you mean :) or are you just being creepy :P
20:21:52 <Vonlebio> Gregor, that's not what that does, IIRC.
20:22:13 <Gregor> Vonlebio: That moves every file matching the pattern *.foo into the directory foo/
20:22:46 <Gregor> alise: ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
20:22:52 <Vonlebio> Gregor, surely it expands to "mv foo.foo bar.foo foo/"?
20:22:53 <alise> Gregor: Sorry, I'm gay.
20:22:56 <alise> Vonlebio: Yes it does.
20:23:02 <alise> mv ... x moves all ... to x.
20:23:14 <Vonlebio> I recall it not working once...
20:23:25 <Gregor> Vonlebio: If it didn't work, it's because you're made of fail.
20:23:57 <Vonlebio> I am obviously made of fail, then.
20:24:03 -!- Vonlebio has changed nick to Phantom_Failer.
20:24:21 <Gregor> So much fail that you can't spell "failure" *tisk tisk*
20:24:48 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: WAY TO FAIL AT RECOGNIZING A JOKE ABOUT FAILING FAIL FAIL FAIL
20:25:25 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: FAIL TO FAIL AT FAIL FAIL FAILING FAIL
20:26:27 <alise> Gregor: 365@597Dammit.
20:27:16 <alise> see whut i did there
20:27:27 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
20:27:44 <Gregor> alise: I DO AND THE LAWLZ
20:28:04 <alise> Gregor: I... what :P
20:28:21 <Gregor> I need a high score system.
20:31:14 <alise> Gregor: Don't destroy the IRC-based fun
20:31:18 <alise> Gregor: How will you stop it being exploited?
20:31:27 <alise> Gregor: Well then.
20:31:53 <Gregor> Conveniently, your distaste for it coincides with my own laziness.
20:32:08 <alise> Gregor: I knew your laziness would prevail.
20:33:01 <alise> Gregor: Question: What explanation is there for only dogs having corpses? :P
20:33:14 <Gregor> alise: quintopia hasn't drawn crushed-favicon-guy yet.
20:33:16 <alise> In-game explanation.
20:33:33 <alise> Gregor: YOU TOTALLY NEED TO DISTORT THE FAVICON IMAGE SERVER-SIDE SO HURR
20:33:40 <alise> (In case the hurr didn't give it away)
20:33:52 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:34:20 -!- sshc has joined.
20:35:29 <alise> Gregor: I've just realised that HavenWorks is totally dormant :(
20:35:47 <alise> Gregor: But it's iconic!
20:36:03 <alise> Like, uh, the World Trade Centre! Wait...
20:36:10 <alise> jews did havenworks
20:37:26 <alise> Gregor: God DAMMIT I fell on to a dog and it killed me.
20:38:24 <Gregor> You probably fell /next/ to it and thought you fell /on/ it :P
20:43:02 <alise> Gregor: 381@448D FUCKING
20:43:09 <alise> it's walking on my corpse
20:45:18 <alise> things that need to die:
20:45:20 <alise> - kinetic typography.
20:46:15 -!- calamari has joined.
20:46:24 <Gregor> calamari: http://codu.org/websplat/ NAO
20:46:43 <calamari> yeah I tried it just now that's why I logged in
20:46:47 <alise> calamari: HAVENWORKS
20:46:50 <alise> http://havenworks.com/
20:46:52 <alise> it is the only acceptable page to play on
20:47:01 <alise> Note: Bring Chrome.
20:47:03 <calamari> its pretty cool, except the winning screen is super annoying lol
20:47:14 <Gregor> calamari: ITYM super-awesome.
20:47:19 <alise> calamari: Super awesome.
20:47:22 <alise> Phantom_Failer: You see YouTube videos a lot with it.
20:47:39 <alise> Phantom_Failer: Where they take someone's speech and put little words on the screen and oh look they're using that word to build the new sentence and it's rotated.
20:47:50 <olsner> alise: why the hating on kinetic typography?
20:47:57 <alise> Now the letters are going in spirals and you're zooming in and it's swiped off because they've dug themselves into a hole and now the text is building itself like a Scrabble board and
20:48:08 <alise> how did my name get set to alise again
20:48:13 <alise> oh i /nick'd to it
20:48:13 <Phantom_Failer> alise, you seriously expect consistently good æsthetics in *YouTube*?
20:48:23 <alise> Phantom_Failer: no but you get it from the "artsy" people
20:48:33 <alise> it's unspeakably irritating
20:48:45 <calamari> so I assume the webpage logo enemies are kinda like goombas, and the dog? skeleton enemies are like turtles except you don't have a shell?
20:48:51 <alise> Latest horrific example: http://vimeo.com/15412319
20:49:00 <alise> calamari: They're all just goombas :P
20:49:09 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
20:49:22 <calamari> alise: not exactly.. the webpage logo ones will fall off ledges, the dogs won't
20:49:29 <alise> calamari: well, ok, yes.
20:49:31 <alise> that's because dogs are stupid.
20:49:37 <alise> also, *favicon goombas
20:50:05 -!- Harpyon has joined.
20:50:12 <olsner> alise: another stephen fry on language: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHQ2756cyD8
20:50:17 <alise> Precision has helped the torrent client avoid being satanic.
20:50:30 <alise> olsner: i love stephen fry and all.
20:50:32 <alise> olsner: but that "kinetic" "typography"
20:50:36 <alise> is a load of crap.
20:51:12 <Phantom_Failer> FWIW, HavenWorks is rather better than Townships for me.
20:51:29 <olsner> but with so much crap floating around, isn't it better to just ignore it than to go around being all upset about it? :)
20:51:58 <alise> Phantom_Failer: It... you have no idea how impossible it is. Scroll down past the columns.
20:52:02 <alise> The columns aren't even a half of it.
20:52:16 <alise> olsner: i'm not upset, it's just irritating when it gets on reddit's frontpage!
20:53:43 <Phantom_Failer> Also, why does Chrome make it so difficult to bookmark WebSplat?
20:56:09 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: You just need to re-enable the off-by-default bookmarks bar.
20:56:53 <Gregor> What a bizarre article to be the longest.
20:57:52 <Gregor> That makes more sense.
20:58:32 <Phantom_Failer> There are 7 images at the very top and 2 at the very bottom, and 5600 lines of townlands in between.
20:59:32 <calamari> why is it that the wikipedia logo can't be collected?
21:00:01 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
21:00:01 <Gregor> Only images that are <img> tags can be collected.
21:00:25 <Gregor> That logo is an <a> tag with a CSS background-image
21:00:32 <Phantom_Failer> Gregor, you should try Townlands. The long fall is very relaxing.
21:00:33 -!- Harpyon has joined.
21:01:14 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: How long does it take to load? :P
21:01:54 * alise adds a bookmark bar *just* for websplhaahht
21:02:04 <alise> I'll have you know, Gregor, that I hate bookmark bars.
21:02:10 <alise> Ew no it looks strange *disables*
21:02:25 <Gregor> alise: I did the same for "Kick ass" :P
21:02:55 <Gregor> alise: http://erkie.github.com/
21:02:57 <alise> Phantom_Failer: You drag the WebSplat! link.
21:02:59 <calamari> yeah I hate them too but this is worth it
21:03:00 <alise> Gregor: Hmm, what did you do to the scroll constraint thing?
21:03:03 <alise> It doesn't flicker any more.
21:03:12 <alise> calamari: I've just been copy-pasting the javascript :P
21:03:13 <Phantom_Failer> alise, how do I enable it on Chrome in the first place?
21:03:29 <alise> Phantom_Failer: Protip: Spanner
21:03:39 <Gregor> alise: I made it assert the viewport when the browser scrolls itself as well as when the character moves.
21:03:49 * calamari wonders how Gregor has time to do grad school and this
21:04:02 <alise> Phantom_Failer: Spanner, not preferences.
21:04:08 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: Ctrl+B
21:04:32 <alise> Gregor: Yes shift.
21:04:34 <alise> I'm on Chrome right now.
21:04:35 <Gregor> Ctrl+B shows or hides the bookmark bar.
21:04:36 <alise> Ctrl+B does nothing.
21:04:38 <alise> Ctrl+Shift+B works.
21:04:44 <Gregor> I'm on Chrome right now and Ctrl+B shows or hides the bookmark bar ...
21:04:51 <alise> "Always show bookmarks bar Shift+Ctrl+B"
21:05:05 <alise> Gregor: 7.0.517.41; stable. I'm a weenie.
21:05:06 * Gregor takes a screenshot as you're per usual being an ass about it.
21:05:36 <Phantom_Failer> Incidentally, WebSplat on Chrome for Townlands is slower than Firefox, I think.
21:05:52 <calamari> Gregor: btw my son likes your game too
21:06:01 <alise> Gregor: omg kick ass is amazing.
21:06:12 <calamari> "I want the guy to get the pictures"
21:06:12 <alise> Gregor: I get it, you're on a different build.
21:06:12 <Gregor> alise: 'twas my inspiration.
21:06:19 <alise> Shift+Ctrl+B works; Ctrl+B does not.
21:06:25 <alise> In my menu, it shows "Shift+Ctrl+B", not "Ctrl+B".
21:06:27 <alise> I am on the version I said.
21:06:29 <alise> Phantom_Failer: http://erkie.github.com/
21:06:57 <alise> Gregor: kick ass is easier though
21:06:59 <alise> you just rotate and fire
21:07:04 <alise> then accelerate a bit to get the rest
21:07:13 <Gregor> alise: It's also impossible to lose, and has a lot less work to do to be possible :P
21:07:27 <Gregor> Also: WebSplat doesn't work on IE9 beta. *whew*
21:07:35 <alise> Gregor: OMG OMG OMG
21:07:39 <alise> Gregor: Call the player Dominic
21:08:12 <alise> Gregor: Or Dhtmljohn.
21:09:52 <alise> Gregor: By the way, why does crouch-jump work?
21:09:58 <alise> You have to DOUBLE-jump to get above platforms.
21:10:02 <alise> So it's not just that you're lower.
21:10:24 <Gregor> alise: I decided to mentally rewrite "double-jump" as "air-jump" *shrugs*
21:10:31 <Gregor> alise: Besides, without that in some cases you're completely friggin' stuck.
21:10:39 <alise> Oh, of course, I like it.
21:10:44 <alise> I was just wondering *why* it worked.
21:11:09 <Gregor> Originally it only worked as a proper double-jump, I actually changed it to be air-jump.
21:11:45 * Gregor proudly puts a note saying WebSplat is IE9-failure-certified.
21:12:43 -!- gurksen has joined.
21:13:01 -!- gurksen has left (?).
21:14:17 <alise> Gregor: So what's the current high score? 600 something?
21:15:08 <Gregor> alise: Still only 400 something.
21:15:13 <alise> Phantom_Failer: Suuuuure.
21:15:16 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: On HavenWorks?
21:15:26 <alise> Gregor: You said at least 500 something.
21:15:50 <alise> 21:19:03 <Gregor> 533@1495D
21:18:36 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:18:52 <quintopia> Gregor: two people came into the bar saturday night dressed as mario and luigi. i gave them a link to websplat and told them it worked in IE9 >_>
21:19:16 <Gregor> Why would you tell them that? :P
21:19:28 <quintopia> i was drunk, and you never informed me that it didn't
21:19:59 <Gregor> Only if it's trivially simple *shrugs*
21:20:28 <quintopia> seems like it should be a fairly high priority. IE still has the lion's share of the browser market...
21:21:54 <quintopia> question: if 7.2% of someone's messages in a channel contain a reference to another person in that channel, is that "infatuation" or "obsession"?
21:22:57 <Gregor> quintopia: Yes, but if you multiply userbase by intelligence it's a tiny minority.
21:24:24 <Gregor> "Unknown runtime error"
21:25:26 <Gregor> Oh, it works in standards mode.
21:25:38 <Gregor> So for all 0% of the pages that load in standards mode on piece-of-shit-IE9, it'll work.
21:25:39 <alise> <quintopia> seems like it should be a fairly high priority. IE still has the lion's share of the browser market...
21:25:48 <alise> Yes, in #esoteric, all our hobby projects are optimised for user base.
21:25:53 <alise> Because there's money to be made.
21:29:43 <alise> 2.9 GiB of 3.1 GiB (93.51%) - 9 minutes remaining
21:29:49 <pikhq> So, I'm thinking about trying to create an IM client that doesn't suck.
21:30:01 <Gregor> pikhq: G'luck with that.
21:30:13 <pikhq> BTW. Sita Sings the Blues, 1080p24, lossless? 25G.
21:30:20 <zzo38> pikhq: What kind of IM client? And what ideas do you have?
21:30:22 <alise> pikhq: Of all the battles, m'friend, IMs aren't the one.
21:30:52 <pikhq> alise: I would especially love a general communication client that doesn't suck at one or the other.
21:31:01 <alise> pikhq: It is advisable for sanity that you just use Pidgin: a sucky one, yes, but -- you will have to use libpurple and it will suck, or you will have to write your own and HAHAHAHAHA the protocols.
21:31:02 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:31:10 <zzo38> I wrote an IRC client.
21:31:11 <alise> pikhq: IRC is a battle that ought to be fought separately.
21:31:17 <alise> pikhq: It's a different beast entirely.
21:31:18 <pikhq> alise: The protocols are seperate libraries that libpurple happens to use.
21:31:25 <alise> And no, group conversations don't count; they're *small*.
21:31:35 <alise> olsner: fierce competition for seeders
21:31:40 <pikhq> First and foremost: the buddy list is a ridiculous UI concept.
21:31:46 <alise> olsner: I can get 800 KiB/s, but I'm getting 100 KiB/s.
21:31:49 <alise> pikhq: Your face is a ridiculous UI concept.
21:31:53 <pikhq> Namely, the presence of it as a seperate window.
21:31:55 <olsner> alise: aww, sucks to be you
21:32:03 <alise> olsner: I demand asylum.
21:32:17 <olsner> I am not in any position to grant it
21:32:37 <pikhq> So, what I'm currently thinking: On the side of the single UI window, you have the list of connected people. This is your buddy list slash tab bar.
21:32:44 <alise> olsner: all Swedes represent Sweden.
21:32:45 <zzo38> I wrote a IRC client and you can see if it is good or if it is suck also like everything else both IRC and IM.
21:32:53 <alise> pikhq: sorted by most recently clicked?
21:33:13 <alise> I have a mental concept of "conversations I am having" separate from "people".
21:33:40 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:34:01 <pikhq> alise: Perhaps a "create new conversation" button? And it's instead a conversation list?
21:34:14 <alise> pikhq: So now talking to new people is inconvenient?
21:34:22 <pikhq> alise: UI DESIGN IS HARD
21:34:24 <alise> pikhq: Oh hell, I don't know. Anyway it's a really boring battle to fight and Pidgin "works".
21:34:37 <pikhq> I STILL USE BITLBEE
21:34:39 <alise> pikhq: It sucks, yes, but no more than the actual protocols :)
21:34:45 -!- wareya has joined.
21:35:26 <pikhq> Hmm. Has it started to suck less recently?
21:35:31 <Gregor> alise: He really does dance on your corpse X-D
21:35:33 <alise> pikhq: ...well, sort of.
21:35:46 <alise> pikhq: It certainly sucks, hugely and immensely. But you can configure it to... stop annoying you.
21:36:04 <pikhq> alise: From a UI standpoint. Its IM library as far as I know doesn't suck too bad.
21:36:05 * Gregor doesn't understand people who are so bothered by innocuous things :P
21:36:14 <alise> pikhq: Oh it does. (But not so much now.)
21:36:22 <alise> pikhq: Firstly, disable the sounds for buddy online/offline. Then make sure you install the libnotify thing and set it up for messages only. Set the buddy list to compact mode.
21:36:34 <alise> pikhq: Set the minimum height of the chat line to 1. Hide the formatting toolbar in the chat window.
21:36:39 <alise> pikhq: Configure tabs/no tabs according to your preference.
21:36:49 <pikhq> Aaaw, I'd been wanting to avoid libnotify entirely.
21:36:57 <alise> pikhq: libnotify is good for you. srsly
21:37:02 <alise> pikhq: You could use guifications but hahahaha
21:37:08 -!- Harpyon has joined.
21:37:25 <alise> pikhq: You could try ayttm :P
21:37:57 <pikhq> alise: Is it actually any good? libnotify, that is.
21:38:32 <alise> pikhq: The API is fine, albeit iirc it has some dbus stuff in it (but everything has dbus nowadays...). People misuse it and send markup and shit even if the server says it doesn't show markup, but the servers are clever enough to make things just work.
21:38:38 <alise> pikhq: How they are displayed is up to you.
21:38:49 <zzo38> There is a way you can avoid \outer with TeX, by doing things like \def\b#1{\csname newtoks\endcsname#1} and like \def\c#1{\dd#1}\let\dd=\newtoks
21:39:00 <alise> pikhq: You could use the "usual" one, notification-daemon.
21:39:13 <alise> pikhq: Or you could use Ubuntu's notify-osd.
21:39:17 <zzo38> You can also avoid problems with \outer by using \input
21:39:18 <alise> pikhq: Or you could code your own.
21:39:28 <alise> pikhq: (Although that last one will require dbus and stuff and thus be slightly painful.)
21:40:16 <alise> pikhq: So I'd say that libnotify is actually alright. Obviously it could be done in simpler ways, but it's not all that bad.
21:40:53 <alise> pikhq: Don't you use Xfce?
21:40:57 <alise> I would imagine you already have libnotify installed.
21:41:26 <alise> pikhq: I'd enable it. :P
21:42:18 <alise> zzo38: What's wrong with \outer?
21:42:24 <zzo38> I know because I don't like other IRC clients either, that is why I wrote my own.
21:42:31 <zzo38> alise: I don't like the \outer command.
21:42:36 <alise> zzo38: What's wrong with \outer?
21:42:44 <alise> The command itself.
21:42:49 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. My conception on how things should work is very simple: do as little as possible without sucking.
21:43:37 <alise> pikhq: Note: Unix sucks.
21:43:48 <zzo38> alise: If I was designing TeX, instead of Knuth, it would not have a \outer command. The \outer command can cause a lot of problems.
21:44:01 <alise> zzo38: What problems?
21:44:25 <zzo38> You can type \let\outer=\relax to change a file to make it notusing \outer but that won't change things that are already loaded from the format file
21:45:00 <pikhq> alise: That's the only problem.
21:45:19 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:45:26 <pikhq> alise: People can't make it do as little as possible. :P
21:45:30 <zzo38> alise: That it prevents you from typing \def\qb#1{\expandafter\newtoks\csname first.#1\endcsname\expandafter\newtoks\csname second.#1\endcsname}
21:45:30 <Sgeo> Gregor, you should record the song in http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds/worlds3.zip
21:45:45 <alise> zzo38: why would i want to type that?
21:45:54 <Sgeo> alise is alise again
21:46:04 -!- alise has changed nick to elliott.
21:46:05 <Sgeo> And I'm back in my role as Captain Obvious again
21:46:06 <Gregor> Sgeo: Yeah, not sure why that happened.
21:46:06 <zzo38> alise: It is just hypothetical. But it is one of the things.
21:46:17 <Gregor> Sgeo: BTW, I told Sine that you only listen to gangsta rap.
21:47:27 <Sgeo> What genre are the songs in http://djsethgold.com/demo/DjsethGoldLive.mp3 ?
21:47:56 <elliott> things that make me rage: "songs" for "tracks"
21:48:29 <elliott> Sgeo: what the fuck at that.
21:48:35 <elliott> (15 seconds onwards or whatever)
21:49:02 <Sgeo> Just some guy with the same name
21:49:10 <elliott> Do not listen to Sgeo's lies.
21:49:42 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Your MOM's voice is not... I don't know
21:49:46 <elliott> It's not something, anyway.
21:53:12 <elliott> pikhq: Have you ever used st?
21:54:25 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah. It has some flaws as of yet.
21:54:44 <pikhq> elliott: And it doesn't do Unicode, which is a massive failing.
21:57:12 * Sgeo listens to the Logication music <3
21:57:19 <elliott> pikhq: I'm trying to run OS X in a VM without hardware virtualisation.
21:57:39 <elliott> ("You're insane" will suffice.)
21:57:40 <Sgeo> Someone needs to make a logication clone
21:57:54 <elliott> Hey, the spinner...ticker...vague progress thing.
21:57:56 <Sgeo> Then again, the rules might be under copyright or something
21:58:04 <elliott> Sgeo: you can't copyright a game
21:58:17 <Sgeo> So what's the deal with Arimaa in that case?
21:58:31 <elliott> Vague question; unanswerable.
21:58:38 <elliott> pikhq: I have totally conquered Steve Jobs.
21:58:46 <Sgeo> I was under the impression that Arimaa was under some sort of copyright
21:58:49 <elliott> I have caged your OS inside a window on my Toshiba laptop! Mwahahaha!
21:58:53 <elliott> Sgeo: The pieces, certainly.
21:59:03 <elliott> Sgeo: Their wording of the ruleset, yes.
21:59:11 <Sgeo> Ok, makes sense
21:59:15 <elliott> Holy shit slowest boot ever.
21:59:33 <Sgeo> With logication, the design of the pieces ... is kind of hard to avoid copying
21:59:34 <zzo38> If I write X terminal program some day, maybe I can look at "st" codes to see how it is done. And then write it in Enhanced CWEB. It should support bitmaps fonts, single and double width, but no URL mode. I have different opinions what features a X terminal program should have and not have.
21:59:39 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not the exact pixels
22:00:04 <Sgeo> But they're baiscally line segments pointing in whatever ddirection
22:00:10 <Sgeo> And one stationary piece that's a circle
22:00:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Then they are uncopyrightable.
22:00:32 <elliott> Sgeo: Of course the US courts are insane, so YMMV.
22:00:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:01:27 <Sgeo> With Google's app engine, I can only make a certain number of web apps?
22:01:38 <elliott> ;_______; will you stop asking questions
22:01:42 <elliott> go to their fucking site and see for yourself
22:01:54 <elliott> growls? have you recessed to a pre-human state?
22:01:56 <Sgeo> That's what it was last time I checked
22:02:10 <elliott> are you seriously growling at them for only offering a limited *FREE* allocation of limited resourcse?
22:02:15 <elliott> is your sense of entitlement that big?
22:02:22 <elliott> or were you growling at me for telling you to look it up...
22:02:38 <elliott> pikhq: Think this will ever boot up?
22:02:52 <Sgeo> Well, as long as I can tear down old apps... but last I checked, I can't
22:03:15 <Sgeo> "You can delete your existing applications via the Admin Console if you want to create more, but you will not be able to re-register an application ID."
22:03:19 <Sgeo> Ok, that's ok then
22:03:43 <Sgeo> Actually, I think last I checked, that last bit might have been what offended me, even though it does make sense
22:03:56 <elliott> oh, it has a verbose startup
22:04:18 <elliott> pikhq: "warning: skipping personalities in blacklisted kext com.apple.Dont_Steal_Mac_OS_X"
22:04:48 <elliott> <Jobs> DAMMIT! How did they ever think to DISABLE the anti-piracy module?!
22:04:59 <elliott> <Jobs> CURSE YOU, HACKINTOSHERS!
22:05:27 <Sgeo> Well, it might stop more casual... even the casual people would just use whatever the geeks provide
22:05:44 <Sgeo> So once someone figures out how to disable it, it's worthless
22:05:49 <pikhq> elliott: Anyways, I've totally got Sita Sings the Blues in 1080p24, and I can't play it back.
22:06:46 <zzo38> Arimaa license is overly restrictive especially that you are not allowed to release source-codes of programs related to it. Also I don't like that it is patented anyways, I don't like patents. (I also don't like the pieces; I would prefer flat pieces with numbers written on it?)
22:08:04 <Sgeo> ....lolwhat at not releasing source-code of Arimaa programs
22:08:22 <Sgeo> Maybe just code of programs that connect to the server? (Not that that's entirely sensible either...)
22:09:32 <Phantom_Failer> Gregor, hey, is the marquee tag a moving platform in WebSplat!?
22:09:38 <fizzie> Sgeo: No, it's "not at all": [What is allowed is:] "Development of Arimaa related software for educational, research or personal use. However you may not hire, contract or commision someone else to develop the software; may not sell the software or release the software publicly in any form (source code or executable)."
22:09:51 * Gregor smacks elliott and Phantom_Failer simultaneously.
22:10:15 <Sgeo> That.... makes no sense
22:10:58 <fizzie> It's completely brainless, of course. "Use of Arimaa in a computer science course" is 'allowed', and "there is basically no restrictions on the use or distribution of Arimaa related products or services", yet you're somehow still not allowed to give out "publicly" any code in any form.
22:11:22 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: Suggested that first :P
22:11:26 <fizzie> The license is very clearly not written by a lawyer.
22:12:03 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Anyways, I've totally got Sita Sings the Blues in 1080p24, and I can't play it back.
22:12:21 <elliott> <fizzie> Sgeo: No, it's "not at all": [What is allowed is:] "Development of Arimaa related software for educational, research or personal use. However you may not hire, contract or commision someone else to develop the software; may not sell the software or release the software publicly in any form (source code or executable)."
22:12:38 <elliott> As far as I can tell Arimaa is shite anyway.
22:12:51 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: It isn't, and it's not possible to do that.
22:13:07 <Sgeo> shite license != shite game
22:13:09 <elliott> Gregor: It is in Platform WebSplat :P
22:13:14 <elliott> Sgeo: I never implied that.
22:13:28 <Sgeo> I don't see how it's a bad game
22:13:33 <Sgeo> I kind of like it
22:13:37 <elliott> You don't see how Active Worlds is terrible either.
22:13:43 <Gregor> A friend of mine has gotten 550 and hasn't died yet.
22:13:51 <elliott> Gregor: Oh man if he beats it.
22:15:16 <fizzie> elliott: I don't really know about legal; the license http://arimaa.com/arimaa/license/current.txt is very confusing. It just lists examples, I guess you're expected to extrapolate from those.
22:15:30 <pikhq> elliott: Of course.
22:15:39 <elliott> pikhq: How big is it again?
22:15:52 <Sgeo> The game is _patented_?
22:16:13 <Sgeo> Hmm, what if Logication is also patented?
22:16:27 <elliott> pikhq: Got a Blu-ray burner? Wonder how much stuff actually listens to the spec :P
22:16:38 <pikhq> elliott: I don't even have a CD burner.
22:16:43 <pikhq> elliott: Erm, DVD.
22:16:51 <pikhq> I have a CD burner. That's well over a decade old.
22:16:59 <pikhq> I... Need a job. :P
22:16:59 <fizzie> Sgeo: "What is claimed is: A method for playing a strategic board game wherein the game is played by two or more players on a game board that is gridded to designate spaces such that pieces that are identifiable as belonging to each of the two or more players are positioned within, and moved among, the spaces; the method comprising the steps of: [rules of the game in patentese]"
22:17:38 <fizzie> The "apparatus" for playing the game is also patented.
22:17:51 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: After 400.
22:18:07 <Sgeo> Well, this is all Arimaa stuff
22:18:14 * Sgeo wants to know about Logication
22:18:35 <fizzie> Also the claim 1 in the Arimaa patent is so generic, I find it hard to believe it doesn't apply to at least some other board games.
22:18:48 <elliott> Sgeo: Nobody patents their games.
22:18:56 <elliott> Not computer ones at least.
22:19:12 <Phantom_Failer> elliott, because the long straight runs and the little clusters are exhausted?
22:19:26 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: No, because the chance is simply that you're going to die at one point.
22:19:40 <Sgeo> First level of logication is guaranteed win to one of the players
22:19:49 <Sgeo> (assuming perfect play)
22:20:03 <Sgeo> The levels are presumably under copyright, right?
22:20:06 <elliott> Oh, apparently the boot takes ten minutes. Heh.
22:20:13 <elliott> If they're super-simple, though, no.
22:20:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:21:18 <zzo38> Do you like Project GIPF? It is a series of six games, all deterministic full-information games played on a hexagon board.
22:22:15 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Now get 600.
22:22:36 <Sgeo> What about on a page specialized for the game?
22:22:39 <Sgeo> Just easy points
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22:24:15 -!- sftp has joined.
22:24:52 <Sgeo> Opera seems to be having some problems again
22:25:52 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Don't stop :|
22:26:13 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Don't stop :|
22:26:30 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Remember to tell us the time, too, if you do die. But don't.
22:26:50 <Sgeo> How about an infinite page
22:28:13 <quintopia> elliott: an "infinite" page could work though
22:28:34 <elliott> Gregor: Please explain to quintopia why the DOM doesn't let it work.
22:29:10 <quintopia> you know that game where platforms are moving upward, but they have holes in them, and you have to get the ball through the hole before it falls off the top of the screen, and it just keeps getting faster and faster, but would go on forever if you never died?
22:29:23 <elliott> quintopia: I know infinite games are possible.
22:29:34 * Gregor just shakes his head grimly rather than actually contributing to the discussion.
22:29:37 <elliott> What you do not understand is that doing this in JS would be impossible because it takes ages to enumerate the DOM and that ist he only way.
22:30:24 <elliott> quintopia: Detect new elements appearing on the page.
22:30:33 <elliott> Which is also the only way to do an "infinite" page.
22:31:28 -!- Phantom_Failer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:31:40 <quintopia> i don't see it. why can't you have an "infinite" game where the screen never scrolls down, platforms just go off the top of the page, are made invisible, and at some random point in the future, are made visible again at the bottom?
22:32:08 <elliott> quintopia: Because WebSplat doesn't work like that?
22:32:13 <elliott> <quintopia> elliott: an "infinite" page could work though
22:32:16 <elliott> Not with WebSplat, it couldn't.
22:32:34 <quintopia> i don't know enough about the mechanics to see it
22:33:14 <quintopia> you're gonna make me read code aren't you? :/
22:34:15 <elliott> quintopia: It scans all the DOM elements at start up.
22:34:21 <elliott> After that, their positions, and existence, is fixed.
22:34:32 <elliott> All of this would break WebSplat.
22:35:31 <quintopia> elliott: what if there are no visible dom elements at all on startup?
22:35:33 <Gregor> quintopia: Elements preexisting in the DOM that move around screw you up.
22:35:39 <elliott> quintopia: Then it... doesn't work.
22:35:41 <quintopia> elliott: what if all the platforms were created by websplat
22:35:42 <Gregor> elliott: Elements added by websplat code can move.
22:35:44 <elliott> The playfield is empty,f orever.
22:35:47 <elliott> quintopia: It doesn't create any...
22:35:53 <elliott> Gregor: I meant page elements.
22:36:08 <elliott> By... stating the facts about how WebSplat works?
22:36:20 <quintopia> but sprite-like platforms are exactly what i'm talking about here
22:36:26 <elliott> You failed to say that entirely.
22:36:39 <elliott> Sgeo said "what about a page designed for WebSplat". Then you said "but what about an infinite page".
22:36:52 <elliott> *Obviously* I assumed that, since you were continuing what Sgeo said, you meant *an actual page* not a modification of WebSplat.
22:37:16 <quintopia> but it could be a page designed for websplat, with websplat-like javascript code on it
22:37:33 <quintopia> that uses websplat-like methods for moving sprite-like platforms
22:38:42 <elliott> quintopia: That... might work.
22:38:59 <elliott> Not unless you patched WebSplat's functions and *that* will be basically forking WebSplat, except it'll break a lot.
22:39:03 <Sgeo> Obviously, Gregor needs to obfuscate his Javascript, and doing so will provide 100% protection against persons like you.
22:39:33 <elliott> "Besides it's Vmware is NOT FREE. They give you a cripple version to make you happy about but not full features like VirtualBox." ;; and that's why there's no non-open source version of VirtualBox!
22:40:33 <Sgeo> Was about to say a book 1 spoiler
22:44:57 <elliott> I wonder if this thing would boot OS X for the lulz.
22:47:59 <olsner> if it's somehow motivated by lulz, it might
22:48:33 <elliott> olsner: Can I come to Sweden to use you guys' internet for a while? I, uh, think I need to download a *different* 3 GiB ISO.
22:49:03 <Sgeo> Is Opera's builtin BitTorrent client decent?
22:49:17 <olsner> elliott: hehe, I could download it for you, but I'm not sure if that helps since you need to get it from here afterwards
22:50:06 <Sgeo> That would be _faster_?
22:50:13 <olsner> if nothing else, I can download it and gloat at how fast it went
22:50:40 <Sgeo> Ooh, I like this MIDI
22:51:10 <Sgeo> http://daychilde.com/midiguy/Dc15.mid
22:51:45 <Sgeo> Does Dc* usually mean "In the Windows Recycle Bin"?
22:52:32 <Sgeo> Does windows rename files in the recycle bin to DcSomenumber?
22:52:44 <elliott> http://daychilde.com/midiguy/Dc15.mid <-- this is beyond terrible
22:53:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:53:39 <Sgeo> Weird. I love it.
22:54:14 <Sgeo> Dc7.mid for some haunted house-ish music
22:54:20 <Sgeo> Came from a game called Murder Mansion
22:54:38 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, but you have terrible taste.
22:55:35 <Sgeo> I'm not recommending davy[1].mid
22:55:41 <Sgeo> Do you now have more faith in my taste?
22:55:56 <elliott> I haven't clicked it and won't
22:56:29 <elliott> Sgeo: i lied. dear god that is terrible
22:56:38 <Sgeo> See? I have some taste!
22:57:59 <Sgeo> There's a lot mentioning gerudo
22:58:05 <Sgeo> Same basic theme
22:58:15 <Sgeo> Z64gerud.mid is the one I'm listening to now
22:58:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:59:07 <Sgeo> Actually, it's a bit slow
22:59:59 <Sgeo> GerudoVmix.mid is nice and fast... perhaps a bit too much
23:01:19 <Sgeo> www.tnlc.com-midi-children.mid
23:03:52 <Sgeo> The reason some of these look almost like URLs is that in Active Worlds, people could include sounds that come from elsewhere (not on the object path)
23:13:00 <pikhq> elliott: Seems that it's possible to make Pidgin suck less. Who knew?
23:19:22 <Sgeo> pikhq, lolwat?
23:19:31 <Sgeo> Enough to let me switch back from Digsby?
23:23:11 <pikhq> It's not even hogging RAM like I'd expect from such a thing. Incredible.
23:30:16 <elliott> pikhq: Well, it is written in C.
23:30:22 <elliott> *Generally* such programs don't hog *all* the memory.
23:30:34 <pikhq> elliott: Tell that to Gnome.
23:30:46 <elliott> pikhq: Gnome isn't actually that much of a memory hog IME.
23:30:59 <pikhq> elliott: But anyways. Quite astoundingly, it appears to be acting quite reasonably all-around.
23:31:03 <elliott> pikhq: Slow yes. Memory hog no.
23:31:35 <elliott> pikhq: In fact apart from Chrome and VirtualBox, Pidgin is my top memory-using process... by whatever hideously inaccurate standard System Monitor uses.
23:31:43 <elliott> But yeah, that's really inaccurate.
23:31:55 <pikhq> elliott: Liferea appears to be using more here.
23:32:05 <elliott> pikhq: Liferea is *Mozilla*.
23:32:23 <pikhq> Uh, it's Webkit and C.
23:32:45 <elliott> pikhq: I swear that it's XUL.
23:32:52 <pikhq> Definitely Webkit.
23:32:55 <elliott> Maybe some other popular feed reader.
23:33:25 <elliott> "How To Build a Universal Feed Reader
23:33:25 <elliott> (C) 2007-2008 By Denis Sureau
23:33:25 <elliott> We will detail the steps in building a feed reader recognizing all formats, by using the possibilities of XML PHP 5."
23:33:37 <elliott> None of these technologies makes any sense in context with the others!
23:34:25 <elliott> pikhq: FWIW: OS X in a VM on a platform without virtualisation *sucks*.
23:35:35 <elliott> "Unless your system specs are close to the ones used in Apple machines (a.k.a. non-cutting-edge), you will have problems."
23:35:47 <elliott> yes, all those Apple computers running silly outdated i3/5/7s :P
23:36:26 <elliott> pikhq: I can't even remember why I wanted to do this.
23:36:42 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:37:08 <pikhq> Pain, agony, sorrow, etc?
23:37:58 <elliott> pikhq: Well yes. But it will be fun to have OS X to torture in a VM.
23:38:12 <elliott> pikhq: Consider it a nicotine patch for ex-Applers.
23:40:03 <elliott> 20:42:40 <Gregor> ARGH I suck at this game apparently X-D
23:40:03 <elliott> 20:42:45 <Gregor> 181@153D
23:40:17 -!- nooga has joined.
23:40:52 <elliott> Gregor: Also: 20:45:00 <elliott> Gregor: I have to say, I would appreciate an ability to look up/left/right/down a certain amount, like in some platformer games.
23:40:57 <nooga> suddenly i feel that i need to write a 3d modelling program simmilar to google's sketchup, but BETTER
23:41:10 <elliott> When did this channel become #nih?
23:41:50 <Sgeo> How do I tell Opera that it choose the wrong link for its fast forward feature?
23:41:59 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I should just write my own browser
23:43:08 <elliott> nooga: NIH = Not Invented Here (syndrome)
23:43:17 <elliott> Anyone know anything about VirtualBox?
23:43:31 <Sgeo> It is or was a Sun thing at some point
23:44:27 <elliott> pikhq: "satisfyBefore I get this thing rolling -- I want to tell you one thing. The tone which I’ve written this article may differ , its just to make it sound like a commercial product. I have no intentions of selling it or making profit out of it. This project will remain , free and I’ll be writing a guide on how to make your very own boot-132 disc so that you can pretty much help out the rest !
23:44:27 <elliott> Introduction -- Presenting Empire EFI. The one of the kind boot loader which all. Do take a look at what Empire EFI as to offer. Unlike other tutorials and guides and solutions , you don’t need a hackint0sh or Macintosh running OSX . Its possible to use this disc on a PC running Windows or Linux"
23:44:45 <elliott> I had a feeling you'd be terribly unuseful.
23:46:15 <Sgeo> Hey, my statement was less ambiguous!
23:46:26 <Sgeo> Although equally unhelpful for someone in your position, admittedly
23:46:34 <elliott> Sgeo: I wasn't even playing off that.
23:46:40 <elliott> It's just silly OSx86 stuff.
23:46:45 <elliott> pikhq: You know the ridiculous thing? I have a fucking Macintosh!
23:50:48 <elliott> hahaha "Mac OS X even regulates processor activity between keystrokes, saving milliwatts of power."
23:50:55 <elliott> Accompanying image: http://images.apple.com/macbookair/images/enviro_efficiency_milliwatt20101020.jpg
23:51:24 -!- calamari_ has joined.
23:52:06 <Sgeo> Is there a chance that Apple might attempt to lock down OSX to iOS levels?
23:52:24 -!- calamari_ has quit (Client Quit).
23:52:47 <elliott> it's too much effort and expense.
23:53:05 <elliott> they haven't really added any new anti-other-people's-machines code in a while, i don't think
23:53:21 <Sgeo> I meant as in, only approved programs
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23:54:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Chance of that is absolutely zero.
23:54:20 <elliott> It's still a fucking *computer*.
23:54:36 <elliott> Sgeo: The Macintosh *created* the computer software industry in 1984.
23:55:12 <elliott> Every indie OS X developer in the world -- and there are a lot -- would go to Steve Jobs' house and kill him, his wife and his children if that ever happened.
23:55:22 <calamari> elliott: did you read that in the weekly world news?
23:55:39 <elliott> calamari: Well, okay, "The Macintosh *created* the computer software industry in 1984." was slightly hyperbolic.
23:55:48 <elliott> But there was no *desktop* software industry beforehand.
23:55:57 <elliott> (Mostly because... there was no desktop.)
23:56:13 <calamari> yeah but they were always smaller
23:56:34 <calamari> macs had a lot of presence in schools because of donations
23:56:44 <elliott> calamari: Don't you mean Apple IIs?
23:56:54 <Sgeo> What's the difference?
23:56:57 <elliott> calamari: The original Macintosh was way too expensive for schools.
23:57:01 <elliott> Sgeo: Uh, everything, more or less.
23:57:09 <elliott> Scratch the "more or less"; everything.
23:57:14 <elliott> No wait, both had a keyboard and a display.
23:57:20 <calamari> elliott: not if they were given to the school
23:57:36 <elliott> calamari: I have never read anything about the *original* 1984 Macintosh being used in schools.
23:57:36 <calamari> and the schools always had apple hardware, never pc
23:57:43 <elliott> Everything after that, sure.
23:58:01 <calamari> I'm talking about things like mac se
23:58:12 * Sgeo has no clue what we used
23:58:18 <Sgeo> I think there was a menu
23:58:32 <elliott> http://productsdb.riscos.com/images/riscos.gif!
23:58:38 <calamari> yeah so it was a smart strategy, a lot of people use mac because that's what they used in school
23:58:41 <elliott> I've been in front of a RISC OS machine once I think.
23:58:42 <Sgeo> I think we had heterogenous Windows and ... menu thing
23:58:56 <elliott> if they could afford it. unlikely.
23:59:06 <elliott> RISC OS is awesome, did I mention that? Awesome.
23:59:11 <Sgeo> I'd need to see a screenshot
23:59:20 <elliott> http://productsdb.riscos.com/images/riscos.gif
23:59:31 <elliott> RISC OS was the first to introduce text anti-aliasing to computer interfaces.
23:59:40 <Sgeo> It was textual
23:59:52 <Sgeo> A GRUB-like menu
23:59:57 <Sgeo> Not a graphical GUI menu