00:00:36 <Sgeo> I used DOS at home, I remember that
00:00:45 <elliott> DOS with a menu application, I mean.
00:00:52 <Sgeo> If this was DOS in the schools, it was hidden behind some menu... yeah
00:01:00 <Sgeo> Now, help me find the menu application
00:01:20 <Sgeo> I only remember one vague image
00:01:28 <Sgeo> The background was blue
00:01:39 <elliott> calamari: is that referring to a specific product?
00:01:41 <elliott> "Automenu is the only remaining product we sell, all other products have been discontinued."
00:01:55 <calamari> elliott: it was an old menu program for dos
00:02:02 <elliott> No, not really. You can't use Automenu to start your computer and then switch between Windows 95 and DOS applications. You could use Automenu as a menu system for your DOS applications inside a DOS window. You would install the Automenu files on your system and create a shortcut to run AUTO.BAT. So when you click on this shortcut it will start Automenu in a DOS window.
00:02:05 <elliott> calamari: sounds like it, lol
00:02:08 <elliott> http://www.magee.com/magee/Product%20Information.htm
00:03:05 <elliott> Psst, cpressey doesn't know this, but I've totally stolen his language.
00:04:13 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:05:46 <elliott> It's a term rewriting language! But, but with kittens!
00:06:26 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:09:25 <calamari> so I have an idea for the action of a multiplayer roguelike that somewhat retains turn-based movement: if any player moves, then the monsters get a chance to move. however, the monsters are not able to attack anyone who hasn't taken a turn yet.
00:10:10 <calamari> so you might get surrounded by monsters if you leave the game running for days, but you'll be "safe" lol
00:11:16 <elliott> "Oh no, there are 50 Ultimate Death Killing Machines surrounding me!"
00:11:34 <calamari> yeah if you get abandoned by your party, you might get screwed
00:11:50 <elliott> calamari: or if your whole party go offline and can't get to somewhere safe first...
00:11:52 <calamari> however, if they leave the level, then the monsters won't be moving either
00:12:14 <elliott> holy shit, vmware server is 451 MiB!
00:12:39 <calamari> I can never understand why software is so bloated
00:13:01 <elliott> calamari: aren't you a java guy?
00:13:21 <elliott> gotta question your actual code size as a valid metric there when you depend on one of the worst pieces of software in existence (jvm) that also hogs memory :P
00:13:32 <elliott> calamari: well no, software does suck.
00:13:49 <elliott> calamari: basically due to corporate development i think
00:13:58 <elliott> selling the software is more important than the code, programmers get lazy
00:14:04 <elliott> but it's okay, hardware will catch up!
00:14:16 <calamari> yeah but how exactly do they get lazy
00:14:18 <elliott> then in a desperate attempt to imitate other systems, the Linux/BSD guys start donig it to
00:14:41 <elliott> calamari: as long as the software literally *works* the company keeps selling it because users are locked in and don't know any better.
00:14:50 <elliott> calamari: as long as the programmers don't break the software, they stay employed
00:14:56 <elliott> so why bother writing good code?
00:15:00 <calamari> what I meant is, if they are lazy then wouldn't that mean less lines of code?
00:15:24 <elliott> calamari: it can be an art to write the minimum amount of code that's still readable and functions
00:15:31 <elliott> sometimes it's a lot more easier to write long, retarded code that gets it done
00:15:37 <elliott> calamari: plus, "Hey you, implement this feature!"
00:15:40 <elliott> codebase grows, redundancy appears
00:16:05 <elliott> calamari: also consider that not too long ago it wasn't even clear how software should be written! in fact it still isn't.
00:16:13 <elliott> calamari: also worse is better only got popularised in the 90s
00:16:27 <elliott> ...and even though i have some disagreements with it, before it, minimal code wasn't seen as a virtue at all as far as i know
00:16:32 <elliott> at least not outside the actual dedicated unix circles
00:16:49 <elliott> calamari: but really, if your software does what it's supposed to, and it's tiny, that's a good thing imo.
00:17:29 <calamari> well I work on the ibm mainframes (z/os), we don't have bloat there.. maybe not the best algorithm, but not bloat either
00:17:47 <calamari> but that code has been going since the 60s
00:18:11 <calamari> so maybe hardware restrictions have maintained an atmosphere of efficiency
00:18:57 <elliott> calamari: aren't they a bit... arcane?
00:21:25 <elliott> forgot we had a nice word for that.
00:21:43 <elliott> god, this will never work ever
00:22:20 <elliott> I uh so, someone distract me by asking about my language.
00:23:44 <calamari> elliott: sorrty, had to take a call.. yes z/os is definitely different than a lot of modern oses
00:24:14 <elliott> calamari: meh, i consider modern OSes insane.
00:24:33 <calamari> but it is very good at doing batch processing
00:25:24 <calamari> so that means it's good for billing, banks, retail stores, etc
00:25:27 <elliott> calamari: Yay batch processing! Everyone's favourite thing.
00:27:03 <elliott> Hmm. The only OSes I consider sane are... Forth and the Lisp Machine OSes.
00:27:27 <calamari> also the hardware is handled so much better
00:27:47 <calamari> here if my cd won't read it hoses linux
00:28:48 <calamari> not sure why that is, actually. would kernel preemption help?
00:28:51 <elliott> calamari: well yeah linux is braindead.
00:29:24 <calamari> or is the drive flooding the bus with crap
00:30:32 <elliott> calamari: yes. the driver got out a hose and filled the entire bus.
00:30:35 <elliott> a tragic mental breakdown.
00:30:43 <elliott> thankfully it was double decker so people just climbed up to the top.
00:36:58 * Sgeo ponders a Factor OS
00:38:23 <Sgeo> Wasn't there some idea that Smalltalk was supposed to be an OS?
00:40:40 <elliott> Sgeo: not some idea, fact.
00:40:43 <elliott> the original Smalltalk was an OS.
00:41:06 <elliott> Sgeo: the sole reason it's a closed-world, in-a-window environment is because it's an OS ported to run on an OS.
00:46:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: Arguably, it still is.
00:46:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: It just happens to run hosted.
00:46:58 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_bomb#Example_fork_bombs
00:47:05 * elliott axes almost all of that section
00:48:15 * elliott axes almost all of that section
00:50:09 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_bomb#Example_fork_bombs
00:50:29 <Sgeo> Hover! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0fx0_WuD40
00:50:54 <elliott> calamari: You're fucking insane. Did you add one of them or something?
00:51:16 <elliott> Wikipedia is not a forkbomb lookup site.
00:51:33 <calamari> deleting stuff is anti-knowledge
00:51:42 <elliott> You, sir, are a fucking lunatic.
00:51:43 <Sgeo> Don't you see how good AW is?
00:52:01 <Sgeo> Look at how much better its graphics is compared to a different 3d game from its time!
00:52:19 <pikhq> calamari: You are a moron.
00:52:33 <pikhq> calamari: Wikipedia is intended as a reference source.
00:52:40 <calamari> cool, so you guys have no defense
00:52:50 <pikhq> calamari: Having useless data in it makes the whole thing useless for that task.
00:53:12 <pikhq> calamari: PEOPLE WHO WANT USEFUL INFORMATION.
00:53:22 <pikhq> calamari: UNLIKE YOU, YOU IGNORAMOUS.
00:53:49 <Sgeo> The bit about Java is not useless
00:54:06 <Sgeo> Who TF has ever heard of Pict?
00:54:26 <pikhq> Elitist. Grammatically a noun, semantically an indication of the speaker's ignorance.
00:54:53 <elliott> calamari: Firstly, let me note that
00:55:02 <elliott> the decision has been made to move such things to wikisource
00:55:08 <elliott> (long programming examples of a certain task)
00:55:14 <elliott> because *they are explicitly outside Wikipedia's vision*.
00:55:18 <elliott> because *they are explicitly outside Wikipedia's vision*.
00:55:24 <elliott> They are explicitly outside Wikipedia's vision.
00:55:32 <Sgeo> elliott, linky?
00:55:37 <calamari> again, that vision is flawed if it means less information
00:55:46 <elliott> calamari: Well guess what? Wikipedia follows Wikipedia's vision, not yours.
00:56:01 <calamari> if you have attention deficit disorder, use a regular encyclopedia
00:56:09 <pikhq> calamari: Just shovelling information into Wikipedia makes it cease to be a useful resource, and arguably kills the useful information that *is in there*.
00:56:20 <elliott> calamari: You are, quite literally, the stupidest person I have ever had the displeasure of talking to on here.
00:56:27 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: I love you. Let's be friends forever.
00:56:28 <Sgeo> ONE TWO THREE FOUR THIS iS HOW WE EDIT WAR
00:56:35 <pikhq> calamari: Imagine if the page on C had every single valid C program.
00:56:42 <calamari> elliott: yeah that just weakens your already patetic attempt at a rebuttal
00:56:53 <pikhq> calamari: You would say I'm an "information elitist" for removing all that crap.
00:57:05 <pikhq> calamari: And yet, I would be making the rest of the information significantly more accesible.
00:57:05 <Sgeo> Isn't calamari the person who made PSOX's spiritual predecesor?
00:57:09 <calamari> pikhq: if you had example C programs, I don't see a problem
00:57:12 <Sgeo> Hmm, that doesn't help his case, does it?
00:57:19 <pikhq> And thus increasing the ability to access information.
00:57:24 <pikhq> calamari: Let's say a coreutils.
00:57:29 <pikhq> A complete coreutils.
00:57:56 <elliott> pikhq: see /msg, I talked about some stuff
00:58:01 <elliott> that we talked about earlier
00:58:08 <calamari> straw man, really.. since not every language was on that page
00:58:30 <calamari> and that would also be redundant
00:59:20 <elliott> I hope VMware will work better.
01:00:01 <elliott> Mrf, it hasn't installed properly.
01:02:23 <Sgeo> elliott, significant differences between [legal] VMware Server and [illegal to get for free] VMware Workstation or whatever?
01:02:35 <elliott> calamari: your edits are in extremely bad faith especially considering another user (mistakenly) thought I was vandalising and then upon realising I wasn't, putting it back to my version, thus constituting implicit acceptance of it.
01:02:41 <elliott> "I request that before it is reverted again, the matter is discussed on the talk page."
01:03:06 <pikhq> calamari: It's not fucking useful! It's spam!
01:03:11 <Sgeo> calamari, you aren'r even willing to TALK?
01:03:15 <pikhq> calamari: Removing spam is not anti-information!
01:03:21 <Sgeo> Ok, I was sympathetic with you right up until that point.
01:03:26 <elliott> calamari: You are being irrational, inflammatory, acting in bad faith, acting in admitted violation of established Wikipedia policy, and being a fucking asshole.
01:03:52 <calamari> Sgeo: fuck him.. I tried talking he launched ad hominems
01:04:14 <calamari> he's probably drunk or something
01:04:17 <elliott> It's called being exasperated at idiocy. All my rationale is there in the edit summaries.
01:04:37 <elliott> Or, perhaps I'm an information elitist and trying to get you down with my hideous drunkenness.
01:04:50 <elliott> Or, you know, perhaps you're just a moron.
01:04:51 * Sgeo is tempted to remove all EsoAPI and PESOIX references from the PSOX spec
01:04:57 * Sgeo is powerless, obviously
01:05:31 <pikhq> calamari: "Moron" should be treated as an indication that you are exhibiting behavior that is rash and obviously insufficiently thought-out, and that you should reconsider your actions.
01:06:08 <calamari> pikhq: nah, when ppl start saying things, that means they have lost the argument and should be ignored
01:06:19 <Sgeo> I don't see anyone requesting to talk on Talk
01:06:49 <pikhq> calamari: You, sir, already lost the argument. Unless you think that we really need a forkbomb in Pict.
01:07:04 <elliott> <calamari> elliott: fuck you
01:07:09 <elliott> already lost the argument and should be ignored
01:07:16 <calamari> pikhq: so remove the pict example and leave the rest.. works for me
01:07:29 <elliott> calamari: what about the three asm examples?
01:07:32 <pikhq> calamari: I think that we only need one or two examples.
01:07:36 <elliott> One for Linux, one for Win32, and one for I forget what the fuck it was?
01:07:51 <pikhq> calamari: Say, the C and bash examples.
01:07:55 <elliott> Ooh slippery slopes. Why am I arguing with you again? It's not like you've made any attempt at civil debate or listened to my polite request in the edit summary.
01:08:17 * Sgeo falls in love with Pict
01:08:18 <elliott> I wonder where you acquired the kind of ego that makes you think your crazy personal whims beat Wikipedia policy.
01:08:56 <Sgeo> Maybe more of a one-night stand with Pict
01:09:04 <elliott> calamari: I will note that if you had attempted to discuss it civilly with me before reaching for the revert button, I would have been happy to do so.
01:09:09 <GreaseMonkey> <elliott> They are explicitly outside Wikipedia's vision.
01:09:12 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn pi-calculus first
01:09:13 <elliott> calamari: However, your very first action was a hostile dismissal without bothering to argue.
01:09:33 <calamari> elliott: "calamari: You're fucking insane. Did you add one of them or something?" yeah that'
01:09:46 <elliott> calamari: That was after you went to revert it without justification or anything.
01:09:52 <elliott> You just said "hey, I'm reverting that edit you did now".
01:09:54 <pikhq> calamari: Anyways, I now have half a mind to rewrite the entire article because it's almost a stub aside from the spam.
01:09:58 <Sgeo> Ok, how about this:
01:09:58 <elliott> calamari: That is irrelevant.
01:10:02 <elliott> You made no attempt to engage in rational discussion.
01:10:05 <Sgeo> Everyone starts from scratch
01:10:15 <elliott> You stated your explicit intent to perform a hostile action without reasoning at the very start.
01:10:17 <Sgeo> Everyone forgets about the entire conversation
01:10:23 <Sgeo> Then, we have a civil discussion.
01:10:41 <calamari> Sgeo: nah.. I really don't give a shit.. obviously you guys can out-revert me.. so if you want to destroy the information, I can't win
01:11:24 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, to sum it up, there really needs to be the :(){ :|:& };: example
01:11:31 <pikhq> calamari: "Destroy the information". You act under the premise that deleting information is necessarily "wrong" or "evil". Or indeed "anti-information".
01:11:36 <Sgeo> According to the talk page, that's broken
01:11:51 <pikhq> calamari: But there is such a thing as too much information.
01:11:55 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: I left that in, its extended explanation, the POSIX C version, the Perl version and the DOS version.
01:12:06 <calamari> pikhq: there have been pages that I've used that got deleted.. and when I came back the information I needed was gone
01:12:08 <pikhq> calamari: Drowning out the information that's there.
01:12:26 <elliott> So I destroyed... the faster batch version, the DOS command line version, the Ruby version, the Haskell version, the Python version, the Visual Studio version, the Scheme version,
01:12:30 <calamari> pikhq: after that I realized that there was a war inside wikipedia.. those who like to delete and those who like to add
01:12:38 <Sgeo> There was a Haskell version?
01:12:50 <pikhq> calamari: ... You *unconditionally assume* that deleting is wrong?
01:12:59 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: All of which are entirely useless, of course.
01:13:00 <pikhq> calamari: You actually feel that it should be add-only?
01:13:20 <Sgeo> There's a Flash game that I liked and the only expalanation of various stuff was on Wikipedia
01:13:23 <calamari> pikhq: if it's illegal content then it should be deleted.. but if it's content that someone finds valuable, it shouldn't be deleted
01:13:25 <Sgeo> It wasn't a notable game
01:13:29 <GreaseMonkey> the ruby version actually looks kinda interesting
01:13:39 <elliott> calamari: I find "calamari is a fag" valuable.
01:13:55 <Sgeo> Corner cases are FUN!
01:13:59 <elliott> calamari: you said any content someone finds valuable should stay
01:14:03 <elliott> I find "calamari is a fag" valuable.
01:14:19 <calamari> elliott: you really think your argument is valid?
01:14:19 <Sgeo> elliott, maybe he didn't mean literally. Corner cases happen
01:14:26 <GreaseMonkey> scheme ver would be worth keeping, i'd drop the free pascal ver though
01:14:32 <Sgeo> Vandalism is a corner case, his statement should be modified accordingly
01:14:34 <elliott> calamari: Oh, I see, so now you're the one not attempting to reply to disagreements.
01:14:54 <elliott> calamari: What about "Calamari is terribly homosexual, I verily proclaim it so."
01:14:54 <pikhq> calamari: That's reductio ad absurdum, not a strawman.
01:14:56 <GreaseMonkey> php is kinda notable, the win32 fasm one is just large though, and i'm not sure about the linux fasm one
01:14:59 <calamari> you definitely type faster than I do, so that means I'm ignoring you?
01:15:05 <elliott> <calamari> elliott: you really think your argument is valid?
01:15:10 <elliott> that was explicitly refusing to answer
01:15:15 <elliott> argumentum ad incredulity?
01:15:19 <GreaseMonkey> there does not need to be both a nasm and a fasm version of the same code
01:15:27 <Sgeo> By vandalism I did not mean profanity
01:15:44 <Sgeo> Although on a page about calamari, backed up by sou... wait
01:15:51 <elliott> "Stop talking, I haven't lost yet! Let's just leave it as it is!"
01:15:53 <pikhq> calamari: But honestly. Do you actually feel that Wikipedia should be *add-only*?
01:15:55 <Sgeo> We can't just let every single human's opinion on
01:15:59 <elliott> "If we stop talking I can't lose!"
01:16:24 <GreaseMonkey> the lisp one is kinda redundant wrt the scheme one
01:16:33 <calamari> pikhq: for the most part, yes.. obviously if people are putting up copyrighted stuff or attacks as pointed out, then those should be taken down
01:16:46 <Sgeo> Define "attack"
01:16:47 <pikhq> calamari: To make the argument less absurd, I shall give an example that is merely useless, not likely false.
01:16:51 <elliott> calamari: "Some people state that calamari is a flamboyant homosexual murderer."
01:16:53 <GreaseMonkey> actually i'd personally just drop the fasm ones, at least the duplicate
01:16:54 <calamari> pikhq: otherwise it's just a matter of restructuring the information
01:16:56 <elliott> That's not an attack, that's a statement of fact.
01:16:59 <elliott> calamari is a flamboyant homosexual murderer.
01:17:02 <elliott> See, someone has stated it.
01:17:04 <elliott> Therefore my statement is true.
01:17:11 <pikhq> calamari: Would you say that Wikipedia should have an article on a "pet" grasshoper you caught when you were 5?
01:17:12 <elliott> It is true, it is not copyrighted, and it is not an attack.
01:17:19 <elliott> calamari: By your philosophy, this information would have to stay.
01:17:32 <calamari> pikhq: yes, however it might need its own article
01:17:40 <elliott> calamari: Am I not correct?
01:17:52 <pikhq> calamari: ... You're kidding. You are fucking kidding right.
01:17:58 <pikhq> calamari: Please tell me this was a joke.
01:18:00 <Sgeo> If Wikipedia had infinite storage space, I'd see calamari's point
01:18:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: And we had infinite ability to search through BS.
01:18:22 <calamari> pikhq: however that might be original research
01:18:39 <calamari> pikhq: so maybe not on second thought
01:18:41 <Sgeo> I'm thinking more of a separate category for "low-interest" stuff
01:18:47 <elliott> !sh echo 'calamari: all the implementations of fork bombs are original research there too'
01:18:50 <pikhq> calamari: Let's say I somehow wrote it based on your memoirs, that I am the *second* person to have read.
01:18:59 <elliott> ^ ul (calamari: all the implementations of fork bombs are original research there too)S
01:19:03 <elliott> ^ul (calamari: all the implementations of fork bombs are original research there too)S
01:19:03 <fungot> calamari: all the implementations of fork bombs are original research there too
01:19:29 <elliott> ^ul ((except the original bash one))S
01:19:30 <fungot> (except the original bash one)
01:20:02 <Sgeo> UL = Underload, not Unlambda
01:20:15 <calamari> pikhq: it all depends on the page it's in.. if it's in a page about me, then that might be fine. I mean obviously they'd want to use the best source they can. incorrect things should be taken out
01:20:16 <GreaseMonkey> no i believe perl's "fork while fork" is also a "well known" one
01:20:22 <Sgeo> I was not, until I realized
01:20:35 <pikhq> calamari: A grasshoper that nobody except for you or me cares about in the slightest.
01:20:40 <fungot> calamari: so it goes...) is spliced into the surrounding context as ( define ( fnord l)) would unload null and fing. does unloading null remove the g and f major at the end
01:20:42 <elliott> calamari's argument is contradictory and he is wilfully ignoring -- probably by /ignore -- my perfectly valid counterargument
01:20:47 <elliott> his case just keeps on building itself.
01:21:13 <Sgeo> We should build a low-interest wiki!
01:21:21 <Sgeo> For calamari's grasshopper
01:21:30 <Sgeo> And every Flash game in existance
01:22:08 <elliott> pikhq: /msg, moar about the project
01:22:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'll get out my spool of infinite tape and the entropyless computer.
01:22:12 <calamari> Sgeo: I really don't see the problem.. go for it
01:22:38 <pikhq> calamari: In short, you disagree with Wikipedia's long-standing notability requirement.
01:23:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, infinite tape might be a little slow
01:23:11 <pikhq> calamari: Please, do Wikipedia a favor and stop editing contrary to their intended goals. You're just making it worse.
01:23:27 <elliott> ^ul (calamari: you do realise violating wikipedia policy repeatable is a bannable offence?)S
01:23:27 <fungot> calamari: you do realise violating wikipedia policy repeatable is a bannable offence?
01:23:28 <calamari> pikhq: I'll do what I will do :)
01:23:39 <pikhq> calamari: Perhaps fork it if you want to have 10 billion forkbombs.
01:23:46 <pikhq> calamari: Otherwise, please, fuck off.
01:23:54 <elliott> ^ul (calamari: ok so you'll continue going until you get banned. Is your entire ethical and moral system this simplistic?)S
01:23:54 <fungot> calamari: ok so you'll continue going until you get banned. Is your entire ethical and moral system this simplistic?
01:23:56 <calamari> who is talking through the bot.. is it elliott?
01:24:06 <pikhq> No, fungot attained sentience.
01:24:07 <fungot> pikhq: never mind. it's the wrong place for a 42 in here. and no modem flat either. it's a wonderfully eloquent description of the format
01:24:15 <elliott> ^ul (pikhq: also, i am not a bot)S
01:24:16 <fungot> pikhq: also, i am not a bot
01:24:17 <Sgeo> Wait, calamari seriously /ignored elliott?
01:25:39 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> calamari: "Some people state that calamari is a flamboyant homosexual murderer."
01:25:43 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> That's not an attack, that's a statement of fact.
01:25:46 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> calamari is a flamboyant homosexual murderer.
01:25:47 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> See, someone has stated it.
01:25:50 <calamari> Sgeo: I was attempting to try your suggestion
01:25:50 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> Therefore my statement is true.
01:25:52 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> It is true, it is not copyrighted, and it is not an attack.
01:25:55 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> calamari: By your philosophy, this information would have to stay.
01:25:58 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> Am I not correct?
01:26:10 <calamari> Sgeo: obviously the topic didn't change tho lol
01:26:26 <Sgeo> My... suggestion? My suggestion was not to ignore anyone. It was to restart the conversation from a neutral state.
01:27:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:27:04 <pikhq> calamari: Care to answer?
01:27:11 <calamari> Sgeo: yeah since he was basically insulting me rather than attempting honest conversation, the best way to stay neutral was to ignore the troll
01:27:34 <pikhq> calamari: Uuuuh, you're the troll here.
01:27:43 <Sgeo> Let's try this again.
01:27:54 <pikhq> calamari: You're actually trolling Wikipedia by trying to unenforce the notability requirement.
01:27:59 <calamari> pikhq: that's not how I see it, but does it realyl matter?
01:29:07 <pikhq> calamari: Here's the thing. Your edits are like trying to submit patches to Linux that make it run GTK in the kernel. Quite *obviously*, Linus would tell you to fuck off because that's not the job of Linux.
01:29:20 <Sgeo> calamari, unignore elliott. elliott, pikhq, don't insult calamari for things said before this point. calamari, same goes for you
01:29:28 <elliott> Sgeo, stop pretending to be an op.
01:30:10 <elliott> pikhq: pretty sure he has *elliott* on ignore and therefore did not see the question you repeated
01:30:21 <elliott> i.e. any message with my name in it
01:30:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:30:34 <elliott> pikhq: if you want you could turn me into elllott or something i guess :P
01:31:12 <Sgeo> ONE TWO THREE FOUR THIS IS HOW WE GET #ESOTERIC HOTTER THAN THE FLAMES OF HEL
01:31:34 <pikhq> calamari: Also, you're aware that by saying essentially that "deleting is unconditionally wrong" you've shown a complete and utter disregard for actually considering the situation?
01:32:07 <pikhq> calamari: And thus showing all the reasoning abilities of a three-year-old?
01:32:23 <elliott> pikhq: too wimpy to see how he'll react to the ultimate question?! :p
01:32:35 <Sgeo> Solution: Link to an external page that has all these examples.
01:32:37 <calamari> pikhq: why are you continuing this
01:32:49 <pikhq> calamari: Because you're being stupid and I hate for you to be stupid.
01:32:50 <elliott> pikhq: But it'd be *fun* to watch the idiot flail!
01:33:05 <Sgeo> Put it in some userpage on esolangs, no one will complain
01:33:06 <pikhq> calamari: I would like for you to act intelligently.
01:33:37 <calamari> pikhq: your statements are inflammatory
01:33:49 <calamari> pikhq: they work against any argument you might be making
01:33:58 <pikhq> But instead, you insist that any effort to delete information is inherently wrong, regardless of whether or not the information is in any way necessary.
01:34:14 <pikhq> calamari: Your opinions are inflammatory.
01:34:29 <pikhq> calamari: As is your mother.
01:34:36 <calamari> nice.. okay then I really have nothing more to say to you on this subject
01:34:38 <elliott> you forgot the fact that he's a flamboyant homosexual
01:34:53 <pikhq> calamari: I hope you get banned from Wikipedia for trolling.
01:35:12 <calamari> sorry Sgeo.. it didn't work out
01:35:21 <calamari> just added pikhq to ignore also
01:35:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm sorry, but he has all the brains of a flea.
01:36:05 <elliott> pikhq: Excuse me, I've known fleas to do very intelligent things at times compared to calamari.
01:36:13 <Sgeo> calamari, you will unignore them eventually, right? Or do you not feel like hearing the participation of two of the more active members of this channel?
01:36:14 -!- quintopia has left (?).
01:36:24 <elliott> it's ok everything we say is stupid
01:36:26 <elliott> we're information elitists
01:36:32 <elliott> we want to destroy information everywhere
01:36:37 <elliott> by following wikipedia policies
01:36:39 <pikhq> We believe only some information should exist.
01:36:49 <elliott> i believe all information should exist, sure
01:37:00 <elliott> wikipedia's job is to collect researched information -- the forkbombs were original research --
01:37:06 <elliott> and present it in a readable, encyclopaedic form.
01:37:17 <pikhq> elliott: I believe in removing all the information spam.
01:37:20 <elliott> "Fork bomb" would be a welcome article there
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01:37:40 * Sgeo would not be offended if a hypothetical Factor example were removed
01:38:00 <pikhq> elliott: That is to say: I believe in removing bad dumps of ROMs and CDs. Very horribly done encodes of music and video. Pictures taken with the lenscap on. Etc.
01:38:05 <elliott> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Computer_Programming/Hello_world
01:38:16 <elliott> pikhq: I have no problem with them existing and being distributed, just not "recommended".
01:38:20 <elliott> They can be in an index somewhere.
01:38:29 <elliott> pikhq: Preserving culture is a good idae.
01:38:33 -!- wareya has joined.
01:38:35 <elliott> A bad ROM dump is still culture, if almost worthless.
01:39:01 <calamari> Sgeo: let's just leave that one unanswered, okay?
01:39:22 <elliott> It's a good thing calamari never says anything interesting. And is rarely in here.
01:39:31 <Sgeo> To calamari, I am alone with calamari
01:39:32 <elliott> Thankfully being that stupid and having anything worthwhile to say are basically exclusive concepts.
01:39:35 <Sgeo> I'm a little freaked
01:39:44 <Sgeo> elliott, PESOIX is not worthwhile?
01:39:56 <elliott> Sgeo: Even if it was, what more is there to say on it?
01:40:03 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, just call him a flamboyant homosexual.
01:40:33 <Sgeo> There's a girl in one of my classes who I think is interested in girls
01:40:38 <Sgeo> I kind of secretly hope she's bi
01:40:51 <elliott> Well that's a topic change.
01:41:00 <elliott> It's not kind of secretly if you tell #esoteric, and, uh, your hormones are second to none.
01:41:32 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW, part of what you saw here was building up rage against stupid people in general.
01:41:46 <elliott> #esoteric is sort of meant to be the haven away from stupid people :P
01:41:48 <calamari> Sgeo women know that too.. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-online-dating/
01:41:58 <elliott> Even our stupid people are pretty smart (Vorpal isn't that stupid)
01:42:11 <calamari> Sgeo: scroll down to "I'm bisexual."
01:42:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm American. There's lots of idiots, they're loud, and they think that OBAMA IS GOING TO TAKE AWAY DER HEALTHCARE.
01:42:25 <pikhq> Sgeo: I see this all the FUCKING TIME. ON BUMPER STICKERS.
01:42:37 <pikhq> Sgeo: PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK THAT OBAMA IS OUT TO GET THEIR HEALTHCARE.
01:42:51 <pikhq> elliott: Do I give a damn? Nope!
01:42:53 <elliott> I like how calamari equated an online dating page with saying you're bi in real life though.
01:42:57 <elliott> But calamari was being stupid.
01:43:02 <Sgeo> calamari, that's not quite the point. The point is that if she's not bi, I'm certain she's gay
01:43:19 <elliott> pikhq: And it's fun to mock people who have you on /ignore!
01:43:22 <elliott> Did I mention calamari fucks goats?
01:43:59 <pikhq> elliott: His Wikipedia page should say someone claimed that!
01:44:14 <elliott> pikhq: As long as it's referenced to the log!
01:45:06 <elliott> pikhq: In fact, I'll create an article about "The third letter of the sentence of 2010-10-25 where 'elliott' stated that calamari fucks goats in #esoteric."
01:45:15 <elliott> I hate month numbers vs. month names.
01:45:22 <pikhq> Gregor: Completely off-topic, but have you stopped sending out broken HTML which inexplicably starts with an xml statement yet?
01:45:43 <elliott> It's far better to convert to HTML 5 than to send XHTML properly, anyway.
01:45:44 <Gregor> pikhq: Have you stopped beating your wife?
01:45:56 <elliott> Yes, it is the tenth month.
01:46:24 <pikhq> Gregor: But the thing is, you actually are sending out broken HTML which inexplicably starts with an xml statement.
01:46:29 <Sgeo> Windows is showing me MM/DD/YYYY by default
01:46:31 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Drop it :P
01:46:47 <Sgeo> Gregor is not a webserver.
01:47:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: But he operates one.
01:47:37 <elliott> Sgeo: How many damn emotions do you reel through in a day?
01:47:43 <elliott> And how many of them *don't* you announce to us?
01:47:51 <elliott> Gregor: Any websplat updates recently?
01:48:09 <Sgeo> elliott, what other emotions have I announced?
01:48:17 <elliott> Sgeo: Don't you do it often?
01:48:19 <elliott> Pretty sure you do it often.
01:48:32 <Sgeo> I sometimes mention when I'm feeling giddy
01:48:42 <Sgeo> Although never said it with tat word before
01:48:51 <Gregor> elliott: Just ANNOYINGLY moving favicon goombas to the server.
01:48:59 <Gregor> elliott: They're ... kinda slow clientside sometimes :P
01:49:21 <elliott> Gregor: You know, it doesn't have to be PHP.
01:49:24 <elliott> You do administrate your own web server :P
01:49:33 <elliott> Gregor: You could just make an imagemagick shell script.
01:49:38 <elliott> Or... I dunno, $your_favourite_language.
01:49:40 <Sgeo> WebSplat uses some serverside stuff?
01:49:41 <Gregor> PHP is, tragically, what I'm most comfortable with.
01:49:48 <Gregor> Sgeo: Not until now :(
01:49:56 <elliott> You code in C, JavaScript and PHP?
01:50:02 <elliott> Suddenly I don't like you any more :P
01:50:15 <Gregor> elliott: And Python, Perl when I need to, C++, Java, ...
01:50:16 <Sgeo> C isn't bad. JavaScript arguably isn't bad.
01:50:23 <elliott> Do it in Python? Apparently PIL is quiet nice
01:50:31 <calamari> Gregor: ooh that means I need to make a copy of the current code
01:50:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: Javascript is the result of trying to sneak good into a bad idea.
01:50:46 <pikhq> Worked quite well.
01:50:59 <Sgeo> Maybe PHP : Gregor :: Python : Sgeo ?
01:51:00 <pikhq> Gregor: He believes that rm is the work of the devil.
01:51:07 <calamari> Gregor: because up till now it's independent
01:51:24 <Gregor> calamari: Yeah, it sucks to put this serverside, but alas I have no choice :(
01:51:40 <Gregor> calamari: That being said, the dependence is still restricted to one module, and can be removed by changing one line.
01:51:44 <Sgeo> pikhq, what was the bad idea?
01:51:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Scripting language that's like Java.
01:52:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: With 2 weeks to implement it.
01:52:58 <Gregor> Uhh, wow. Worst history of JavaScript ever.
01:52:58 <Sgeo> I don't care if the idea is the best programming language for any purpose ever, time constraints like that can't be good.
01:54:34 <Sgeo> When I implement my Logication clone, I should probably try to do the AJAX stuff myself than look for a framework that does it magically for me, right? Just like, say, learning HTML rather than DreamWeaver
01:55:32 <Sgeo> elliott, was planning to
01:55:45 <Sgeo> I meant, jQuery as opposed to making something with that Wt thingy or similar
01:55:51 <Gregor> Sgeo: Do it yourself, then use jQuery when you try to port it to anything :)
01:55:54 <Sgeo> That automatically writes the JavaScript or whatever
01:56:11 <elliott> Gregor: How come I can scroll at all?
01:56:15 <elliott> Shouldn't the scrollbar be totally disabled?
01:56:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Seriously, that's Javascript. Netscape wanted a Java-like scripting language, gave the poor sap 2 weeks to write it.
01:56:28 <pikhq> Gregor: And he spent those 2 weeks trying to make it not suck.
01:56:34 <elliott> I don't recall that exact figure.
01:56:39 <pikhq> elliott: Seem to recall it being two.
01:56:43 <elliott> pikhq: Dood, websplat on havenworks
01:56:57 <calamari> Gregor: oh, minor bug report: might just be firefox, but space bar jumps once then doesn't work after that
01:57:01 <Gregor> elliott: I can't disable the scrollbar (maybe?), and besides it should stop you from effectively scrolling anyway ...
01:57:09 <Gregor> calamari: Now THAT'S bizarre ...
01:57:12 <elliott> Gregor: Can't you assert the viewport as smaller though?
01:57:33 <Gregor> calamari: But reproducible! Hm.
01:58:01 <Gregor> elliott: Oh, that's right, you can still vertically scroll ... bleh, fixable but not worth it IMHO :P
01:58:10 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP8vlIn02JY theme for December 2009
01:59:17 <elliott> Gregor: the favicon guy is humping the border of the column.
01:59:35 <Gregor> elliott: Don't judge him!
01:59:36 <Sgeo> And some Intenet hormones
02:00:07 <elliott> Sgeo: wait, you *like* that song?
02:00:08 <pikhq> elliott: I can't even play back the 480p version of this.
02:00:11 <Sgeo> I created Metaplace sex
02:00:11 <calamari> just tried it in opera.. don't do that lol
02:00:43 <pikhq> elliott: I'm going to make a lossy 720p version.
02:00:49 <elliott> pikhq: ...but that already exists.
02:01:04 <elliott> You don't want to WATCH it do you?!?!?! :| :P
02:01:05 <Sgeo> The most important files on the damaged HD relate to Metaplace
02:01:14 <pikhq> elliott: But it'd take less time to do the encode myself and then watch it.
02:01:14 <Sgeo> Well, important sentementally
02:01:21 <Sgeo> Some pictures, some chat logs
02:01:27 <Sgeo> Metaplace doesn't exist anymore
02:02:37 <elliott> Gregor: it is totally too hard to kill enemies :P
02:02:40 <elliott> Every time I drop down to kill I get killed.
02:02:56 <Gregor> <elliott> Waaaah I died again waaaah.
02:02:59 <elliott> Gregor: You should have, like, a larger collision box only when checking if you killed or not. >_>
02:03:10 <elliott> One pixel difference meant I died :|
02:03:20 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can find the one picture I have a copy of
02:03:23 <Sgeo> No sex in this one
02:03:27 <Gregor> If you were RIGHT ABOVE IT, you would have killed it. You were slightly left or right of it.
02:03:29 <elliott> No sex oh how disappointing.
02:03:36 <elliott> Gregor: I was right above it. I did not predict the precise pixel movement.
02:03:45 <elliott> Gregor: Also, falling slightly to the right of it when it's moving left is a ... terrible way to die.
02:03:49 <Gregor> Blar, I can still make it easier, I just don wanna X-D
02:04:02 <Sgeo> WTF I can't find it
02:04:05 <elliott> Gregor: We will never complete havenworks :P
02:05:03 <Sgeo> Where is the last surviving picture I have?
02:06:12 <Gregor> Nearly have server-side favicon goombas ...
02:06:15 <elliott> Gregor: Are enemies only simulated when they're on-screen?
02:06:19 <pikhq> elliott: Never mind, this'll take a lot of time.
02:06:31 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, downloading would be quicker :P
02:06:40 <elliott> pikhq: wait, try making a stereo mix
02:06:43 <elliott> pikhq: that's probably why it won't play
02:06:50 <Sgeo> calamari, I'm lookinging for a screenshot, so no
02:06:54 <elliott> There's no reason Elephants Dream would play and not this.
02:06:57 <Sgeo> <elliott>lookinginginginginging
02:06:58 <pikhq> elliott: I was using the stereo FLAC for playback.
02:06:59 <elliott> Especially since Sita is easier to compress.
02:07:15 <elliott> pikhq: Tried waiting a day like last time? :P
02:07:20 <elliott> Gregor: Did that >600 guy die? What on?
02:07:45 <Gregor> (05:22:49 PM) brianrogers83: Ow.
02:07:46 <Gregor> (05:22:50 PM) brianrogers83: Dead.
02:07:46 <Gregor> (05:22:52 PM) brianrogers83: 889
02:08:44 <elliott> Gregor: That's... how far down did he get?
02:09:31 <elliott> Gregor: Don't suppose he said a time recently before that?
02:09:39 <elliott> We could figure out his (approximate, but) total time.
02:10:03 <Sgeo> And what webpage?
02:10:10 <pikhq> elliott: And now I have good reason to do the encode myself.
02:10:12 <Sgeo> Surely to make a comparision, you need to known he webpage?
02:10:18 <pikhq> elliott: It's an average bitrate encode!
02:10:34 <Gregor> elliott: No, I didn't tell him to give times :(
02:10:37 <elliott> pikhq: Just do it with a low non-zero quantiser in x264 or something :P
02:10:42 <elliott> Gregor: You quoted one time, I think.
02:10:43 <pikhq> elliott: No, no, no.
02:10:46 <elliott> But with the amount of pauses...
02:10:54 <pikhq> elliott: I'll target a certain quality instead.
02:10:59 <elliott> Sgeo: We're only playing on HavenWorks.
02:11:05 <pikhq> elliott: Let x264 use very high quantisers when it wouldn't matter.
02:11:20 <elliott> pikhq: Actually... you could probably quantise it a bit and still get a lossless encode, right?
02:11:25 <elliott> I don't know how itw orks.
02:12:00 <pikhq> Quantisation is removing information from the discrete cosine transform so that it can be packed in less space.
02:12:28 <Gregor> elliott: Not from him.
02:12:34 <elliott> Gregor: Oh. Who was that from?
02:12:40 <elliott> pikhq: Well, right, still. Bah :P
02:12:47 <Sgeo> /me should be doing homework
02:12:53 <Sgeo> Grrr extraneous space fail
02:13:00 <Gregor> elliott: The one with times was a Michael, this is a Brian :P
02:13:05 <calamari> Gregor: maybe this is too Mario-ish, but how about killing by double-jumping underneath?
02:13:09 <elliott> Gregor: What did Michael get? :P
02:13:16 <Sgeo> Great, now I'm giddy
02:13:19 <elliott> It's nice to have to be careful with jumps.
02:13:23 <Gregor> elliott: I don't recall and I don't want to check 'cuz I'm doin' stuff :P
02:13:37 <Sgeo> And don't wanna leave IRC
02:14:33 * Sgeo wonders how low he can make his alarm clock now that he has external speakers
02:15:49 <pikhq> elliott: So, what I'm going to do is play games tonight and watch this film tomorrow. Because it seems awesome.
02:16:26 <Gregor> Conveniently, he posted this to describe his location: http://xyzw.org/files/websplat.png
02:16:48 <elliott> Gregor: The man is a machine.
02:17:03 <elliott> Gregor: I... tell him to play some more.
02:17:36 <Gregor> elliott: To be fair, we have no idea how long it took him to get that far :P
02:18:03 <elliott> Gregor: Not as long as us.
02:20:16 * Gregor cracks his knuckles and tries HavenWorks again.
02:20:42 <elliott> Gregor: 539@1329 currently
02:21:10 <Gregor> New suffix: "A" means alive and still playing, "F" means alive but forfeited.
02:21:23 <elliott> Gregor: Alive and still playing can just be foo@bar.
02:21:32 <elliott> It's images@time[endgameresult], isn't it?
02:21:37 <Gregor> But I wurve suffixes! :P
02:21:37 <elliott> That makes the most sense.
02:21:45 <elliott> Gregor: Because foo@bar becomes foo@barD if you die.
02:21:56 <elliott> Gregor: F for forfeited is good though.
02:22:11 <elliott> Gregor: Although couldn't you just say "x@y and I give up"? :P
02:22:36 <elliott> Oh boy, tons of enemies in one place.
02:23:01 <Gregor> elliott: You could also say "x@y and I died"
02:23:44 <Sgeo> WebSplat has enemies now?
02:23:54 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouuld be willing to open Chrome
02:24:29 <elliott> Sgeo: It's had enemies for days.
02:24:32 * Sgeo has no desire to install Firefox
02:26:01 * Sgeo WTFs at "OBAMA TV"
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02:26:25 <elliott> Gregor: This game would be good at improving children's literacy!
02:26:46 <elliott> Gregor: You could sell it as that though :P
02:27:42 <elliott> pikhq: Dude, you should play. :P
02:29:34 * Sgeo let some dog put him out of his misery
02:29:50 <elliott> Gregor: Two dogs were on top of each other (har har har).
02:29:53 <elliott> Gregor: I jumped and killed one.
02:29:59 <elliott> Gregor: The other then managed to move and kill me.
02:30:34 <Gregor> OK, that's pretty wonky ...
02:30:51 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I didn't see it before it happened -- they were below me. So I may not be representing it entirely accurately. But whatever :P
02:31:04 <elliott> Jumped, saw dog die, rebounded, dog whacked me.
02:31:14 <elliott> Before rebound, did not notice dog moving really.
02:31:31 <elliott> Gregor: This is harder than Luigi's Purple Coins.
02:31:42 <elliott> And if you've ever played Luigi's Purple Coins, you know that's saying something.
02:32:24 <elliott> pikhq: You said you were gonna play games, play this one :P
02:33:55 <Gregor> The chance of falling in such a way that an enemy kills you = falling damage 8-D
02:35:10 <elliott> You're saying it's already there, statistically :P
02:35:45 <Gregor> It's stochastic falling damage ;)
02:35:58 <elliott> Stochastically, that was the word I was looking for :P
02:36:40 <elliott> Gregor: The enemies seem to be more numerous this time around >__>
02:37:07 <Gregor> They're probably just higher.
02:37:15 <Gregor> It doesn't try very hard to spread them evenly.
02:38:05 <elliott> Gregor: The new bounding boxes are way better, btw.
02:38:14 <elliott> I've come out on the right end of a few close calls.
02:39:11 <Gregor> (09:36:16 PM) brianrogers83: Laptop arrow keys are not very ergonomic. If I make another attempt, it will be with a Wiimote.
02:39:36 <elliott> Gregor: Dude... tell him about WASD.
02:39:54 <elliott> Gregor: He did all that with laptop arrow keys?
02:39:58 <elliott> Gregor: WTF IS HE ACTUALLY HUMAN
02:40:06 <Gregor> And apparently not, respectively.
02:40:43 <elliott> Gregor: He didn't even go slowly, according to that time in the 3000s.
02:40:54 <elliott> Gregor: What did you get? :P
02:41:05 <Gregor> I'm not dead, I just fell somewhere perhaps-irrecoverable.
02:41:36 <Gregor> Yup, can't get up from here.
02:41:46 <Gregor> There go my dreams of perfect completion :(
02:42:05 <elliott> Gregor: It's the bloody enemies. *obvious*
02:42:23 <elliott> Gregor: This is your chance to use the F suffix!
02:42:29 <elliott> Tell us your final score and time!
02:42:50 <Gregor> I'm too busy weeping openly.
02:43:07 <elliott> Gregor: but srsly, what score
02:44:29 <Sgeo> What's so bad about arrow keys??
02:45:02 <elliott> Gregor: That time is... pitiful :P
02:45:31 <Gregor> elliott: I was taking it slow, trying to be complete and not die.
02:45:36 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-24-whereTheHellAmI.png
02:45:46 <elliott> Sgeo: ...are you deliberately being dense?
02:45:51 <elliott> *being deliberately dense?
02:45:57 <elliott> Gregor: Try the rightmost column.
02:46:03 <Sgeo> O....k [j/k on that one]
02:46:03 <elliott> Gregor: Sometimes there are hidden platforms there.
02:46:12 <Sgeo> These arrow keys are a little smaller, but so what
02:46:12 <Gregor> elliott: ... OK, I will.
02:46:16 <elliott> Gregor: Also... rocking Raleigh there I see :P
02:46:51 <Sgeo> I need to do homework at some point
02:46:55 <Gregor> OH GOD OH GOD NO HIDDEN PLATFORMS OH GOD WHYYYYY
02:48:05 <Gregor> elliott: Well now I'm REALLY stuck :P
02:48:06 <elliott> Gregor: Then try autoerotic asphyxiation.
02:48:22 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-24-2-imInHell.png
02:49:20 <Sgeo> Dear Facebook: If you actually used my information, you'd know I'm an atheist. So why are you advertising a dating site with Christian girls? However interested I may be in them, if they're on such a site, they're not going to be interrested in me
02:50:01 <Gregor> Sgeo: They probably target those ads at atheists in hopes of converting.
02:50:05 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-24-3-DAMNYOUHAVENWORKS.png
02:50:17 <Gregor> Time for a different strategy ...
02:50:34 <elliott> Gregor: Oho, an Xfce user.
02:50:40 <elliott> Are you sure you're not a racist?
02:50:43 <Sgeo> Or it's just that since religious views is a text field...
02:51:32 <Sgeo> "What church were you raised in?"
02:51:47 <Sgeo> "How often do you attend church?"
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02:52:12 <Sgeo> How about I not give you my actual zip code
02:53:53 <Gregor> If you select anything but "Every Sunday and for social visits" for "How often do you attend church?", it won't let you register.
02:54:40 <pikhq> elliott: So, this is a dating site for monks, is it?
02:54:48 <Sgeo> Gregor, seriously?
02:54:55 <Sgeo> It got to asking me for name and DOB
02:55:01 <Sgeo> And I put "special occasions"
02:55:10 <Gregor> elliott: Well if you were raised in a church, you may as well continue to live there.
02:55:10 * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
02:55:24 <elliott> `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
02:55:33 <elliott> Add it to quotes.db manually mon
02:55:36 <Gregor> Down for the indefinite future.
02:55:58 <elliott> M is down for the indefinite future.
02:58:47 <elliott> SOMEONE ASK ABOUT MY NEW ESOLANG
02:58:55 <elliott> Also it's only slightly eso.
02:58:59 <Sgeo> elliott, what's your new esolang?
02:59:05 <elliott> Also I basically ripped the idea off of cpressey who ripped it off of me.
02:59:08 <elliott> Sgeo: NO SOMEONE INTERESTING
02:59:17 <Sgeo> I'm not interesting?
02:59:58 <Sgeo> elliott, I know you're just using my name as a placeholder for yourself in your fantasies
03:00:08 <Sgeo> </too-longwinded-to-be-a-good-anything>
03:00:12 <elliott> Yes... I fantasise about cutting myself...
03:05:39 <elliott> Gregor: You still playing?
03:06:28 <Gregor> No, my fingers exploded.
03:08:57 <elliott> Gregor: I'll play if you do :P
03:10:37 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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03:13:55 <elliott> Gregor's fingers have overloaded so much that he can't type.
03:18:03 <Sgeo> elliottfingers [ explode ] each
03:19:21 <Gregor> elliott: Rarely, things need to get done that AREN'T websplat :P
03:19:32 <elliott> Gregor: Bahahahahahahahahahaha at 3:19 am?
03:19:39 <elliott> Therefore websplat due to logic.
03:19:54 <elliott> Gregor: MAYBE IN COMMUNIST TIME
03:20:15 <Gregor> Last I checked, YOU'RE closer to the REDS.
03:21:55 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to FriendComputer.
03:22:11 <FriendComputer> Attention: Free t-shirts will be given to all communists.
03:22:21 <Gregor> elliott: NOW THEN, BACK TO THE FRAY
03:22:22 <FriendComputer> Please report to the nearest termination booth for your free t-shirt.
03:23:11 <elliott> Gregor: Wouldn't it be great if it turns out there's two images that are too far apart to get both, and there's no way up after you go down one?
03:23:32 <elliott> <Gregor> That... would be something like the opposite of great.
03:24:00 -!- FriendComputer has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:24:05 <Sgeo> I got 0 homework done
03:28:28 <Sgeo> It's a large essay
03:30:08 <Gregor> 290@435D I suck so much.
03:31:27 <Sgeo> What's the second number?
03:32:40 <elliott> Gregor: Thought: Maybe we could do it one column at a time.
03:32:49 <Gregor> elliott: That was my strategy.
03:33:01 <Gregor> elliott: I was going right-to-left since it's usually easier to scale a left column.
03:33:07 <Gregor> elliott: That's how I ended up screwed :P
03:33:18 <elliott> Gregor: Worth trying, do you think?
03:33:28 <Gregor> elliott: Sure, just don't make the same mistake I did :P
03:33:59 <elliott> Gregor: Any strategy tips from Mr. Inhuman? :P
03:34:14 <elliott> Gregor: Also, did you do the little columns at the same time as the big one?
03:34:17 <elliott> Because there's a few little column.
03:34:28 <elliott> Specifically the one to the right of Weblog, with all the pictures in it.
03:35:22 <elliott> Gregor: So what mistake did you make? :P
03:36:04 <Gregor> elliott: While I was climbing down the second-from-the-right column, I slipped a bit and discovered that the bottom of that column goes WAY farther than the others. As a result I slipped a LOT.
03:36:19 <elliott> Gregor: How many actual columns did you do at a time?
03:36:37 <elliott> (I don't count the really thin blue-background one as a real column, rightwards.)
03:36:40 <Gregor> I did one big plus any smalls between it and the next big.
03:36:47 <elliott> Gregor: There's only two bigs.
03:37:01 <Gregor> I consider four of them to be bigs.
03:37:07 <Gregor> All but the tiny ones, really *shrugs*
03:37:13 <elliott> Gregor: There's only one tiny one :P
03:37:19 <elliott> And it doesn't have much in it at all.
03:38:15 <Gregor> I just accidentally CLICKED ON A LINK
03:38:34 <elliott> Gregor: How... did you do that.
03:38:43 <elliott> "I'm just going to move the mouse now! On to this link! And press the button!"
03:38:53 <Gregor> elliott: I had clicked the address bar to pause, then chose a bad point to click back into the game.
03:39:12 -!- Decarabia has joined.
03:39:33 <elliott> Gregor: I'm totally retryin'
03:39:37 <elliott> Gregor: Also, you did the huge top bit first, right?
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03:39:44 <calamari> Gregor: how does websplat handle tables?
03:40:20 <Gregor> calamari: TDs are never considered platforms. Uhh, and that's pretty much it.
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03:41:01 <Gregor> calamari: Feel free to just read the relevant code, it's really not that complicated.
03:41:38 <Gregor> calamari: Specifically look at the initElementPlatforms function
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03:42:16 <elliott> Gregor: So, I should do the second-to-last column last, right?
03:42:21 <elliott> Also, wtf at influx of new people.
03:42:52 <Gregor> elliott: I don't recommend my strategy :P
03:42:58 <elliott> Gregor: I RECOMMEND YOUR STRATEGY
03:43:26 -!- caitie has joined.
03:44:01 <elliott> Decarabia, brana, Chachi, caitie.
03:44:07 <elliott> Where did you guys come from :P
03:44:31 <elliott> right now more usefully, answer that question
03:44:47 <Chachi> the same place, elliott
03:45:00 <elliott> I gathered it was all one place, the question is which place it was that was the place.
03:45:04 <caitie> not a good place to bathe
03:45:17 <branan> foonetic. xkcd-folks told us about this place
03:45:23 <Chachi> from a rather backwater IRC network
03:45:27 <branan> and it was generally called "the best computer science channel ever"
03:46:39 <elliott> Yes, I lead this tribe into lands unheard of.
03:46:43 <elliott> Then we rape and pillage everyone.
03:46:56 <Sgeo> I did not deliberately introduce anyone to #esoteric today
03:47:55 <calamari> hmm well I kinda got this travesty working
03:48:00 <elliott> Decarabia: Chachi: caitie: branan: http://codu.org/websplat/ play this on http://havenworks.com/ if you want to totally get in the mood for this channel. Since it's all we've been doing for days.
03:48:08 <elliott> Bother Gregor with your endless bug reports of silliness. Mwahaha.
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03:48:35 <Gregor> What IS with the influx of people.
03:48:35 <elliott> I think the last time we had this many people we were on reddit.
03:48:51 <Gregor> I'm guessing we're about to get botnet-flooded.
03:48:55 <elliott> Gregor: quintopia decided that telling an xkcd channel that we exist
03:49:09 <caitie> why were youon reddit? are you famous?
03:49:10 <CatSandwich> One of your friends on foonetic mentioned this channel
03:49:17 <elliott> We're famous rapists-and-pillagers.
03:49:42 <Gregor> elliott: I have died on havenworks SO MANY TIMES in SO MANY STUPID WAYS
03:49:44 <Gregor> elliott: It makes my brain hurt.
03:49:49 <caitie> so i can get a rape off?
03:49:51 <branan> O_O it's like the perfect websplat page
03:49:53 <elliott> Gregor: That's what she said.
03:49:55 <Gregor> elliott: And yet, I'm not complaining about the collision mechanics :P
03:50:04 <elliott> branan: I... you know what websplat is?
03:50:09 <elliott> Has quintopia just been PIPING THIS CHANNEL into there?
03:50:11 <Gregor> branan: We're all trying to see who can do the best on it ... we are not doing well :P
03:50:14 -!- CatSandwich has left (?).
03:50:15 <Gregor> elliott: You ... just told him?
03:50:44 <Chachi> it hurts my eyes and my brain
03:50:53 <elliott> Chachi: You get used to it.
03:50:56 <elliott> After a while you stop seeing colours.
03:51:03 <Gregor> And see only ... websplat.
03:51:21 <elliott> Chachi: Then you are not welcome! This is now the official WebSplat channel.
03:51:21 <Chachi> I'm already partially colorblind
03:51:27 <elliott> See, now you can experience the real thing!
03:51:36 <elliott> Your colourblind now is, like, retarded./
03:51:57 <elliott> You see, we're also all devout Christians.
03:52:00 <Gregor> elliott: What a bizarre sequence of words.
03:52:09 <caitie> jesus is full of holes
03:52:24 <elliott> Gregor: That's what the antelope imbibed after criss-crossing the milk of a father's horticultural orgy.
03:52:56 * elliott resorts to Standard Initiate Procedure en masse
03:53:02 <elliott> All of you: http://esolangs.org/
03:53:07 <elliott> Specifically, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:53:09 <Chachi> again with the babbling
03:53:32 <caitie> do i want to click that link?
03:53:40 <elliott> caitie: Well, it is our website, so yes.
03:53:54 <elliott> Actually this predates the website and the website was founded independently. But still.
03:53:55 <Gregor> That is the website associated with this channel :P
03:54:44 <caitie> oh, this esoteric i a prog lang. i see
03:54:45 <Decarabia> Hm, websplat doesn't seem to like loading on that page for me. I'll just blame java and be done with it. Kick ass is all right though.
03:55:11 <Gregor> Decarabia: Blaming Java is weird since it doesn't use any.
03:55:33 <elliott> caitie: Yes, but very rarely are esolangs discussed. We complain a lot though!
03:56:17 <elliott> Yes, well, all the endless expanses of complainers are sleeping right now. Also, can I offer you a new spacebar?
03:56:34 <Chachi> I'd totally write a bot in one of these
03:56:48 <Chachi> but I am too lazy and don't know jack shit about that sort of thing
03:57:16 <fungot> elliott: almost fell asleep here. :p http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ drunk_blogging probably has some trivial procedure to do it, actually?
03:57:19 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
03:57:22 <elliott> Chachi: See that link for the full horror.
03:57:48 <caitie> my main priority right now is keeping warm, not typing well
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03:58:14 <Chachi> looks like the time my cat tried to type
03:58:27 -!- Chfan has left (?).
03:58:37 <Gregor> HAHAHAHA, elliott: (10:56:48 PM) brianrogers83: Complete SMB2j and unlock the bonus worlds. Then you'll be good at websplat.
03:58:50 <elliott> Gregor: OH BOY THAT SOUNDS LIKE ENDLESS FUN.
03:59:00 <elliott> Gregor: ALTHOUGH MAYBE I'LL KILL MYSELF INSTEAD
03:59:02 <Gregor> Well, there's your advice :P
04:00:48 <elliott> Gregor: HavenWorks.com+A-Z and then the beta pages thing is the end of the first column, right?
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04:01:31 <Sgeo> Hi CatSandwich
04:01:37 * Gregor watches elliott scramble at splatting :P
04:01:39 <Sgeo> Please don't mind the causticness
04:02:28 <elliott> Gregor: Your method does indeed suck :P
04:02:44 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, that's why I'm not using it any more :P
04:03:38 <Sgeo> I think certain people's habits of distrusting anyone I bring here has been extended to anyone broght here by anyone
04:04:41 * Sgeo has homework he needs to do :/
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04:06:43 <elliott> Gregor: How's your current game going?
04:08:52 -!- CatSandwich has left (?).
04:10:51 <Gregor> elliott: It went outside with the fire alarm :P
04:11:08 <elliott> Gregor's fingers caught fire.
04:11:13 <elliott> Gregor: or wait, was that your joke
04:11:29 <elliott> Gregor: 'cuz i'm totally playing and you're lagging behind
04:11:38 <elliott> Gregor: but i just hit 700
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04:16:27 <Gregor> elliott: 252@260D GOD I SUCK
04:16:37 <elliott> Gregor: Yes you do. 364@1390 atm.
04:16:53 <Gregor> http://i54.tinypic.com/iycsw2.png <-- best - thing - ever
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04:21:04 <Gregor> OK, back into the fray ..
04:22:12 <catseye> <elliott> Especially with codu.org because the hat has a fucking hat.
04:22:22 <catseye> Yo dawg, I heard you like... oh n/m
04:23:58 * Gregor configures his joystick.
04:25:51 <catseye> <zzo38> I don't know what would be the financial equivalent of "list comprehensions" or "co-routines". Do you have an idea?
04:26:33 <catseye> I would say they're trying to blow our minds, but I know it isn't true; they're just clueless.
04:27:35 <catseye> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, not sure about pizzas.
04:27:44 <catseye> I totally saw the WP article on it so it must be true
04:32:00 <elliott> catseye: i stole your language, rho
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04:33:19 <catseye> elliott: give it back, thief!
04:33:21 <catseye> <Phantom_Failer> Gregor, you should try Townlands. The long fall is very relaxing.
04:33:48 <catseye> I have found blog posts with lots of comments provide an opportunity to do a long drop down the left edge collecting avatar icons.
04:33:59 <catseye> Something very NES about that.
04:35:30 <calamari> had a roguelike question for you
04:35:47 <elliott> Gregor: How goes the joysticking?
04:35:58 <Gregor> elliott: Not as much better as I'd hoped :P
04:36:08 <catseye> <Gregor> "Unknown runtime error"
04:36:23 <catseye> the beautiful, beautiful fail
04:36:54 <elliott> Gregor: Oh shit, huge fall again.
04:36:55 <catseye> I thought it was IE9 from context, but yeah, there is no way you could get your hands on one so quick, i would think
04:37:05 <calamari> catseye: so I have an idea for the action of a multiplayer roguelike that somewhat retains turn-based movement: if any player moves, then the monsters get a chance to move. however, the monsters are not able to attack anyone who hasn't taken a turn yet.
04:37:55 <calamari> catseye: would that "feel" roguelike, in your opinion?
04:38:28 <elliott> Gregor: You can sort of climb up text using the ragged edge...
04:39:04 <calamari> lol you guys still trying to beat that huge political page?
04:40:50 <catseye> calamari: i suppose, except it seems like the monsters might have an incredible speed advantage if they can move every time *any* player moves...
04:41:50 <calamari> catseye: yeah they would. not sure how to balance that.. let's say I took a fraction of players, now if only one player moves, he is then super fast comparedto the monster
04:41:56 <catseye> <zzo38> alise: If I was designing TeX, instead of Knuth, it would not have a \outer command. The \outer command can cause a lot of problems.
04:42:03 <catseye> zzo38 should totally design Knuth
04:42:14 -!- caitie has left (?).
04:42:46 <Gregor> <Gregor> elliott: 507@1096D :(
04:42:48 <Gregor> <Gregor> catseye: I'm sorry, wrong, that WAS IE9. I got a similar nonsense error from Chrome.
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04:45:26 <calamari> Gregor: did you try the mario level?
04:46:07 <elliott> Gregor: I need a PS3 controller.
04:46:28 <elliott> Gregor: Although what the PS3 controller needs is the analogue stick to be where the useless d-pad is.
04:46:47 <calamari> Gregor: http://70.162.184.205:980/mario.html
04:46:51 <Gregor> elliott: For this you definitely need a D-pad.
04:47:08 <elliott> Gregor: Not if you assign down to a button.
04:47:13 <elliott> Gregor: For instance, one of the Ls or Rs.
04:47:19 <Gregor> elliott: OK, fair enough.
04:47:29 <elliott> Gregor: Now you go try that :P (Except... maybe the back toggle on the joystick?)
04:47:33 <Gregor> calamari: That will definitely not work.
04:47:58 <Gregor> calamari: ... HOW oh wait ... damn, does this work how I fear it works >_O
04:48:15 <Gregor> Never mind, if that works I have no idea why.
04:48:15 <calamari> well I didn't use tables.. just pre
04:48:42 <Gregor> calamari: But it doesn't consider every individual character to be a platform ...
04:48:57 <elliott> I think calamari needs schooling on HTML.
04:49:02 <elliott> Last I checked there is no f element.
04:49:04 <calamari> nope because the spaces aren't surrounded by tags
04:49:12 <elliott> <html><body style="background-color:#5c94fc"><pre style="font-size:1px">
04:49:33 <elliott> I... calamari's code is as insane as he is, I guess.
04:49:43 <calamari> elliott: yeah it's definitely not pretty
04:50:01 <calamari> I needed a tag.. f works, has no side effects
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04:50:33 <calamari> html ignores tags it doesn't understand
04:51:00 <elliott> That is the worst definition of validity ever, and the worst attribution of *actions* to an *abstract specifications* ever too.
04:51:02 <Gregor> Well, that kills my browser.
04:51:13 <Gregor> Holy eff it DOES work O_O
04:51:17 <elliott> <"I¬<>> :R~@Q"*)I¬ &poop;<qwerty style="£$*( your mom
04:51:21 <elliott> It's valid HTML because browsers parse it!
04:51:23 <calamari> jesus elliott would you quit trying to pick fights with me
04:51:38 <elliott> Sorry, I'll never criticise anything you ever say again.
04:51:39 <Gregor> calamari: That ... is obscene.
04:51:40 <calamari> I don't care that you hate me.. just shut up
04:51:52 <elliott> You could just /ignore me again...
04:52:04 <calamari> no it was making it hard to follow the conversation
04:52:06 <Gregor> calamari: BTW, in Firefox it fails to make it the right size :P
04:52:12 <elliott> That's sort of entirely not my fault at all.
04:52:31 <calamari> Gregor: yeah that's going to depend on a lot of factors
04:53:20 <Gregor> In Chrome it works but is freaking right the eff out X-D
04:53:24 <calamari> my proportional is "monospace"
04:53:37 <Gregor> Of course the better way to do this would be anything other than 1px colored spaces :P
04:54:17 <calamari> Gregor: open to suggestions :)
04:54:35 <Gregor> calamari: Well, given that your input is presumably an image, you're kinda stuck :P
04:54:48 <Gregor> What I mean is you should have actual elements for bricks, pipes, etc.
04:55:14 <calamari> then you wouldn't be able to sink into objects too
04:55:57 <Gregor> Frankly I'm surprised it didn't just shit itself and die :P
04:59:21 <catseye> <elliott> When did this channel become #nih?
04:59:44 <catseye> no, there was no #nih... UNTIL NOW
05:00:26 <elliott> catseye: I don't like your #nih.
05:00:37 <elliott> I designed it to be how *I* wantedi t.
05:00:47 <Gregor> I'm creating ##nih-developers and ##nih-users
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05:03:30 <Gregor> elliott: <Gregor> Can you make it Alise's Gregor's NIH instead?
05:03:41 <Gregor> I want to make Frederick's Alise's Gregor's NIH
05:03:49 <elliott> Gregor: #aegnih, Alise's Elliott's Gregor's NIH
05:03:51 <Gregor> Or rather, get somebody named Frederick to do it.
05:03:55 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, we're rebranding! #ægnih
05:04:03 <elliott> but that doesn't stop our ambitions.
05:04:24 <elliott> Gregor: I've always wanted to call someone a fæg.
05:04:32 <elliott> They're both fags AND fegs!
05:06:13 <catseye> <elliott> Psst, cpressey doesn't know this, but I've totally stolen his language.
05:06:23 <catseye> yeah give it back, asshole
05:06:44 <elliott> catseye: but you don't even know what it is yet!
05:07:20 <elliott> catseye: well you could ASK ME
05:07:33 <catseye> you already identified it as Rho
05:08:25 <elliott> catseye: well it's slightly different.
05:08:31 <elliott> although i never knew much about rho
05:09:33 <elliott> lol wikia redesigned again http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
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05:17:50 <Gregor> Anybody know of a way to mirror a page and embed all images as data URLs?
05:18:26 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. sed and wget.
05:18:55 <Gregor> Yes, because sed finds and converts images to data URLs X_X
05:19:10 <branan> I think wget has a flag to do magic and pull down all the images along with all the HTML data
05:19:20 <elliott> branan: that doesn't help make them into data: uris
05:19:27 <Gregor> branan: It does, the difficult step is converting them all to data URIs
05:19:43 <branan> should be doable with sed and a bit of magic
05:19:54 <elliott> Gregor: curl page; s/<img ([^>]+) src=([^ ]+)/<img $1 src=data:blah,$(curl $2 | encode)/g
05:20:05 <elliott> Gregor: This works for a page that you know it works for and is extremely brittle otherwise :p
05:20:16 <elliott> Gregor: Actually, I could cook something up with Beautiful Soup pretty trivially.
05:21:05 <elliott> Gregor: Probably mirroring a page for WebSplat.
05:21:12 <elliott> Gregor: And I see no reason to do that with data: at all >_<
05:21:45 <Gregor> I'm just wondering if a page like HavenWorks would actually be smaller that way.
05:21:55 <Gregor> Since the images are so small and a HTTP request is not tiny.
05:21:59 <elliott> Gregor: Unlikely, since it uses the same image a *lot*.
05:22:11 <elliott> That red-on-yellow cross thing.
05:22:15 <Gregor> Ohyeah, it uses the same image over and over, right.
05:22:24 <elliott> Gregor: You could do it with JS.
05:22:35 <elliott> Gregor: Have an array of images, then have some code that goes through a bunch of img elements and sets it.
05:22:44 <elliott> Gregor: i.e. by having each image become a class instead.
05:22:57 <Gregor> Oh good, 'cuz I really didn't want to do that :P
05:23:53 <elliott> Gregor: You'll also want to minify the HTML, of course.
05:24:23 <Gregor> It was pure intellectual curiosity about bandwidth.
05:24:32 <elliott> If there's one thing I love it's pointlessness!
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05:29:36 <elliott> Gregor: Apparently there are only two images on the entire page...
05:30:20 <elliott> <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" cols="1" width="100%" bgcolor="#33FF33">
05:30:21 <elliott> <center></center></td></tr></table></body></html>
05:30:21 <elliott> <img src="images/logos/News-Reference-Facts-Information-Sources-Intelligence-Haven-Works.gif" alt="News Reference Facts Information Sources Intelligence Haven Works !-)" nosave height="16" width="16" />
05:30:22 <elliott> <img src="images/navigation/News-Subject-Topic.gif" alt="2008 ELECTION News" nosave border="0" height="14" width="13" />
05:30:25 <elliott> Gregor: havenworks is just that crazy.
05:30:48 <elliott> Going to use a different parser.
05:31:53 <elliott> Gregor: Ohh, it's too new a Beautiful Soup.
05:32:07 <elliott> They removed an underlying module in Python 3 and so Beautiful Soup 3.1 uses a less robust parser.
05:32:11 <elliott> And Ubuntu packages it because fuck you.
05:32:23 <pikhq> Yes, believe it or not, HTML parsers have to deal with a *lot* of bullshit.
05:32:27 <elliott> "The 3.1 series has been abandoned. The 3.0 series is still under development; use it instead."
05:32:45 <pikhq> It's not valid HTML or XHTML or, indeed, valid anything.
05:33:02 <pikhq> http://www.wickedlocal.com/swampscott/news/lifestyle/columnists/x124609719/DAN-KLINE-COLUMN-Movie-critics-have-lost-all-credibility On another note, this is STUPID.
05:33:17 <elliott> pikhq: is that the one where he says-- yup
05:33:21 <elliott> animated films are for KIDS guddurnit!
05:33:36 <pikhq> elliott: Also the one where he disliked the film.
05:33:40 <elliott> Meanwhile Japan stares at Daniel B. Kline and says, "You show your KIDS that shit? Jesus man... you're fucked up."
05:33:50 <elliott> (It's funny because Japan is perverted)
05:33:55 <pikhq> I just saw that for the first time. (so much for playing games)
05:34:03 <elliott> pikhq: DOOD HAVENWORKS WEBSPLAT
05:34:15 <pikhq> And as per *absolutely usual*, Up was a brilliant film by Pixar.
05:34:25 <elliott> Gregor: omg it uses no css at all
05:34:37 <pikhq> (seriously, are they capable of making a film that isn't at least pretty good?)
05:34:48 <elliott> pikhq: Steve Jobs and the Fart App
05:34:58 <pikhq> elliott: Oh dear God nonono.
05:35:05 <Gregor> elliott: Unsurprising, this is 1992 web "design"
05:35:28 <elliott> Gregor: Rate the awesomeness of this class name from 9 to 100000000:
05:35:32 <elliott> images_navigation_indexbox_HavenGIFs_thumbs_TELECOMMUNICATIONS_News_TELECOM_News_COMMUNICATIONS_News_TELEPHONE_News_PHONE_News_gif
05:35:49 <Gregor> Your scale doesn't go high enough.
05:35:58 <pikhq> Gregor: Geocities "design".
05:36:07 <elliott> pikhq: no, geocities is like
05:36:13 <elliott> this is geocities raised to an art form
05:36:18 <elliott> and with... surprising structure
05:36:30 <pikhq> elliott: You're right, it's the *paragon* of Geocities design.
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05:36:54 <elliott> <img alt="News Reference Facts Information Sources Intelligence HavenWorks.com" nosave="NOSAVE" border="2" height="85" width="85" class="images_logos_News_Reference_Facts_Information_Sources_Intelligence_HavenWorks_com_gif" />
05:37:03 <elliott> I love how BeautifulSoup decided to add />.
05:37:15 <elliott> Gregor: wait. This won't render the same, will it?
05:37:37 <Gregor> I have nooooo idea X-D
05:37:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:37:58 <catseye> pikhq: Can you set the content-disposition of a page from in a meta tag inside it?
05:38:09 <pikhq> catseye: I dunno what that even is.
05:39:02 <catseye> pikhq: apparently not official HTTP/1.1 material, so, best not go there, I suppose.
05:39:40 <catseye> Just trying to think of a way to easily make my website be served as actual XHTML.
05:39:59 <catseye> content-disposition can "suggest" the mime type, iirc
05:40:05 <pikhq> catseye: Can you change your .htaccess?
05:40:17 <catseye> pikhq: no, i am on el cheapo hosting.
05:40:23 <elliott> catseye: Just convert it to HTML 5 :P
05:40:36 <pikhq> Or HTML 4, if you dislike using working drafts.
05:40:39 <catseye> elliott: yes, get on that will you
05:40:56 <elliott> catseye: then s/doctypes/<!doctype html>/g
05:41:02 <elliott> you're welcome, that will be $200
05:41:25 <catseye> elliott: hm, my site seems to be EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT WAS WHEN I ASKED YOU TO FIX IT
05:41:39 <elliott> catseye: UNFORTUNATELY THE USER MUST RUN SHELL SCRIPTS FOR THEMSELVES, I CAN ONLY OFFER THEM GUIDANCE
05:41:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit).
05:42:27 <elliott> <pikhq> Or HTML 4, if you dislike using working drafts.
05:42:38 <elliott> yes, because solid, well-adhered-to standards matter in web development :P
05:43:18 <pikhq> elliott: Well, given that we're insisting he use a standard rather than bizarro HTML-with-an-xml-statement, I'd say it does. :P
05:43:51 <pikhq> By "we" I mean "I".
05:43:58 <elliott> Gregor: ...there's no getElementsByClass, is there. RAGE
05:44:32 <Gregor> 1) There is a getElementsByClassName (or something like that), 2) You really ought to use jQuery since getElementsByClassName doesn't work on IE (but then, who cares)
05:44:38 <Gregor> Err, I think it's ByClassName ...
05:44:58 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, including jQuery would bloat the size of the page amazingly :P
05:47:52 <catseye> pikhq: I am taking it as something of a challenge to solve in a creative way. I ... might be able to use .htaccess files but I'd have to have one in every directory? That... converting it all to HTML 4 looks more attractive.
05:48:34 <elliott> Gregor: Uncaught ReferenceError: getElementsByClassName is not defined
05:48:46 <catseye> I should experiment with this, though
05:51:43 <elliott> Gregor: What WOULD be awesome though is making a page that links to other pages with data:, which then *link back to the original page*.
05:51:50 <catseye> http://www.smackthemouse.com/xhtmlxml You can totally trust him on web practices because his domain is called smackthemouse.com and in his picture he looks like he's out hunting pheasant.
05:52:10 <elliott> where Y is the source of the second and X the source of the first, in data: form
05:52:27 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:52:48 <elliott> catseye: "On selvmade dog sledge in Ammassalik 1999."
05:52:53 <elliott> catseye: http://www.smackthemouse.com/jesper
05:55:03 <elliott> catseye: here's the standard not-very-helpful rant http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
05:55:12 <Gregor> I like that his main activity "at the moment" is in the past.
05:55:48 <catseye> Well... turns out I *can* use .htaccess. http://catseye.tc/ is now truly XHTML! (the front page, anyway)
05:55:59 <elliott> catseye: now IE doubly unworks!
05:56:26 <elliott> catseye: SHOULDN'T YOU GENERATE IT WITH XSLT
05:56:28 <Gregor> catseye: Oh god don't get him started.
05:56:43 <elliott> Gregor: He started hours ago. Except he isn't being annoying because he just hates you.
05:56:49 <elliott> What I'm saying is: he loves you.
05:57:03 <elliott> <elliott> What I'm saying is: he loves you.
05:57:03 <elliott> <catseye> elliott: I **DO**
05:57:08 <Gregor> Not him. The him who shall not be named.
05:57:19 <elliott> Gregor: The p i k to the headquarters?
05:57:24 <elliott> Gregor: That's whomof I was referringunto.
05:57:29 <catseye> It's like the "DO" has Energy Wings
05:57:42 <elliott> Gregor: Now proceed to participate in a terrible gay romcom.
05:58:05 <elliott> catseye: What does the PETulant Cursor actually do?
05:58:09 <catseye> I *do* generate it with XSLT.
05:58:21 <elliott> catseye: Not the news page. Because ... XSLT tools don't spit out invalid XML in my world.
05:58:31 <catseye> Now please stop leading the conversation in direction where delays cause hilarity to ensue.
05:58:59 * Gregor looks for an offline HTML5 validator...
05:59:15 <catseye> elliott: I... well I'm pretty sure I am. Maybe I am also screwing with it. Oh... it's because RSS is retarded, probably.
05:59:15 <elliott> Gregor: validator.nu is open source.
05:59:23 <elliott> Gregor: See http://about.validator.nu/.
05:59:37 <catseye> The way to put tags in RSS entries is to ESCAPE the freaking angle brackets.
05:59:37 <elliott> Gregor: It has a web service, also.
05:59:45 <elliott> catseye: Just use Atom. Srsly.
05:59:48 <Gregor> elliott: What I want is for it to NOT have a web service.
05:59:52 <elliott> Gregor: Therefore use the source.
06:00:00 <elliott> catseye: take a look at this: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/02/04/incompatible-rss
06:00:03 <elliott> catseye: prepare to lose faith in humanity
06:00:24 <elliott> catseye: "There are 9 versions of RSS, all of which are incompatible with various other versions. RSS 0.90 is incompatible with Netscape’s RSS 0.91, Netscape’s RSS 0.91 is incompatible with Userland’s RSS 0.91, Netscape’s RSS 0.91 is incompatible with RSS 1.0, Userland’s RSS 0.91 is incompatible with RSS 0.92, RSS 0.92 is incompatible with RSS 0.93, RSS 0.93 is incompatible with RSS 0.94, RSS 0.94 is incompatible with RSS 2.0, and RSS 2
06:00:24 <elliott> .0 is incompatible with itself."
06:00:25 <Gregor> elliott: I hope it doesn't take hackery to do so ... *looks*
06:00:44 <elliott> Gregor: Python-based build script, it seems. For a Java project :P
06:00:45 <pikhq> elliott: ... How do RSS readers work at all?
06:00:50 <elliott> svn co https://whattf.svn.cvsdude.com/build/trunk/ build
06:00:55 <elliott> Gregor: "Yes, the last line is there twice intentionally. Running the script twice tends to fix a ClassCastException on the first run."
06:01:14 <elliott> pikhq: Did I mention that you can't actually tell all these versions apart?
06:01:24 <elliott> So you don't even *know* which wildly incompatible version you're looking at a lot of the time.
06:01:43 <elliott> pikhq: "This means that if a feed contains a <rating> element and declares itself as RSS 2.0, it is impossible to know whether the feed is valid unless you also know when the feed was created."
06:02:00 <pikhq> elliott: OH MY DEAR GOD THAT'S AWFUL.
06:02:09 <elliott> Mark Pilgrim is my tech writing hero.
06:02:19 <elliott> Never before have such dry facts been so hilarious.
06:02:51 <Gregor> elliott: Bleh, doesn't have an offline mode. WANT OFFLINE MODE >_<
06:02:54 <pikhq> It seems that RSS 1.0 is the only RSS that is usable.
06:03:05 <elliott> Gregor: ??? It's the Java software.
06:03:11 <pikhq> Hooray, W3C not being completely and utterly moronic.
06:03:23 <Gregor> elliott: I don't want to hack it to make it run from a command line.
06:03:38 <Gregor> elliott: The source they provides starts a web server.
06:03:48 <elliott> Gregor: Your mom starts a web server.
06:04:01 <Gregor> pikhq: You find me an HTML5 validator, and I will switch everything to HTML5.
06:04:07 <Gregor> pikhq: ONE THAT WORKS OFFLINE
06:04:20 <Gregor> pikhq: From a command line
06:04:24 * elliott wonders wtf Gregor wants it for
06:04:31 <elliott> You could just interface with the worb sirvir.
06:04:40 <elliott> Gregor: Run server locally, use curl
06:04:41 <Gregor> SUCH a pain in the ass X_X
06:04:44 <pikhq> Gregor: Due to being a working standard, impossible.
06:04:46 <elliott> Gregor: PROBLEM SOLVED ^____^
06:05:00 <pikhq> Gregor: Erm, working draft.
06:05:01 <Gregor> pikhq: That's a nonsense copout, there are validators of what exists thusfar.
06:05:05 <pikhq> Gregor: However, an HTML4 validator shouldn't be hard.
06:05:06 <elliott> Gregor: I think the w3c validator is "meant" to be able to do HTML5 now.
06:05:13 <elliott> pikhq has no idea what HTML 5 is or anything
06:05:16 <pikhq> Gregor: Grab an SGML validator and the HTML4 doctype.
06:05:18 <elliott> You're FUDding it to the max :P
06:05:19 <Gregor> elliott: Also not offline.
06:05:31 <catseye> yeah this is going to take a while to fix
06:05:32 <pikhq> elliott: It's a working draft. Not complete. Subject to change.
06:05:35 <elliott> Gregor: http://code.w3.org/unicorn/wiki/Documentation/Install
06:05:45 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but the W3C version changes very rarely.
06:05:47 <pikhq> elliott: Granted, much of it is rather stable, but that's beside the point.
06:05:48 <Gregor> elliott: THANK YOU HOORAY
06:05:52 <elliott> The WHATWG one is the one that gets active development.
06:05:59 <elliott> Gregor: I don't know how good it is at HTML 5.
06:06:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Just do HTML 4 and avoid SGML features that browsers don't parse. :)
06:06:36 <elliott> Gregor: It does purport to. So that should be fine.
06:06:36 <Gregor> Frankly I'd be happy with an HTML4 validator that doesn't barf at "<!DOCTYPE HTML>"
06:06:52 <pikhq> (ie HTML 4 that won't make an HTML 5 validator barf)
06:06:55 <coppro> ~/s/sc[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~/win 2
06:07:13 <catseye> elliott: yes, familiar with that. i think i link to it on my site
06:07:20 <catseye> elliott: should just go to atom, yes.
06:07:23 <elliott> <!DOCTYPE HTML> is, as far as I know, not.
06:07:44 <elliott> Gregor: If it's a valid HTML 5 doctype it's definitely not a valid XHTML 5 doctype and well it's just silly.
06:08:03 <Gregor> elliott: I hate you ALMOST as much as I hate pikhq w.r.t. HTML.'
06:08:21 <elliott> Gregor: You're the one who said you wanted to use HTML 5.
06:08:25 <elliott> I'm tellin' you your doctype is wrong :P
06:09:15 <elliott> gawd it is so slow to load
06:09:55 <elliott> my fan went on just to display the html 5 spec
06:10:07 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, it is actually valid.
06:10:10 <coppro> elliott: I assume you pinged me this weekend; I was off judging a massive Magic tourney so I did not see it and it left my scrollback
06:10:12 <elliott> Gregor: But still, it's fugly too :P
06:10:30 <Gregor> elliott: YOU ARE SERIOUSLY COMPLAINING ABOUT CAPITALIZATION OF THE DOCTYPE TAG.
06:10:37 <elliott> Gregor: I'm just trying to piss you off.
06:10:52 <Gregor> WELL AS YOU CAN PLAINLY SEE IT'S WORKING
06:11:08 <elliott> SHE WORKS IN THE GREGOR INDUSTRY
06:11:16 <elliott> ACTUAL PLURAL OF GREGOR: GREGAE
06:11:25 <elliott> codu.org is the site of ONE GREGÆ
06:11:27 <catseye> ACH PYTHON RE-UPGRADED ITSELF TO FUCKED PYTHON WHEN I INSTALLED REV
06:11:39 <elliott> catseye: so how goes BetNSD
06:11:54 <catseye> elliott: next trip down there i'm going to get a dmesg
06:12:13 <catseye> Of *course* NetBSD has dmesg!
06:12:21 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
06:12:31 <pikhq> Gregor: I suggest you make it valid HTML 1.0.
06:12:43 <elliott> !bf_txtgen Of *course* NetBSD has
06:13:23 <pikhq> (and yes, I know there is no such thing)
06:13:33 <elliott> Gregor: I need you to run bf_txtgen :P
06:13:58 <pikhq> elliott: The first released version was 1.1.
06:14:07 <pikhq> And that was a draft.
06:14:16 <pikhq> Before that it was unversioned.
06:14:21 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.
06:14:21 <fungot> Of *course* NetBSD has
06:14:37 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html32
06:14:58 <fizzie> +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<. this one has the trailing space too, hopefully.
06:15:07 <Gregor> How big is this damned unicorn :P
06:15:17 <elliott> Gregor: it also has the CSS validator and a sofijhdiojiog other validators :P
06:15:39 <Gregor> I know my CSS is invalid, as all CSS is, because I had to work around IE bugs :P
06:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: Does it set to 0 on EOF or no-change?
06:15:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Uh, you're doing it wrong.
06:15:57 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, all those important IE users visiting your website.
06:16:05 <pikhq> Gregor: IE supports conditional comments, you see.
06:16:11 <catseye> < elliott> catseye: What does the PETulant Cursor actually do?
06:16:14 <catseye> you have to run it and see
06:16:18 <pikhq> Gregor: You can make all other things see valid CSS and IE see the broken shit it wants.
06:16:27 <elliott> ^def does bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.,[.,]++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
06:16:34 <fungot> Of *course* NetBSD has NetBSD have whores?
06:16:54 <Gregor> pikhq: If you find yourself to be on fire, that would be because my thoughts have escaped my mind and become reality.
06:17:02 <elliott> ^def faq bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.,[.,]++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
06:17:07 <elliott> ^faq blackjack and hookers
06:17:08 <fungot> Of *course* NetBSD has blackjack and hookers
06:17:30 <elliott> ! is 33, it must be zero after the ]
06:17:33 <elliott> and then i set to 33 and print
06:17:56 <fizzie> The thing you're +'ing into might not be zero.
06:18:10 <elliott> fizzie: Yes it might, because the 33-setting comes right after a ].
06:18:28 <elliott> ^def faq bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.,[.,]>[-]<++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
06:18:34 <elliott> ^faq blackjack and hookers
06:18:35 <fungot> Of *course* NetBSD has blackjack and hookers!
06:18:51 <elliott> fizzie: can I be a jerk and ask for a non-starry version? the slogan has no emphasis >_>
06:19:07 <fizzie> +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.
06:19:08 <elliott> admittedly it has no ! either, but
06:19:15 <pikhq> Gregor: Also, is your page *supposed* to render differently if downloaded via wget -p and then displayed from file:/// ?
06:19:22 <elliott> ^def faq bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.,[.,]>[-]<++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
06:19:26 <elliott> ^faq blackjack and hookers
06:19:26 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has blackjack and hookers!
06:19:36 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has toaster support!
06:19:37 <Gregor> pikhq: YOU CANNOT STILL BE ON THIS FOR FUCKS SAKE
06:19:42 <pikhq> Wait, I wanted wget -pk.
06:19:50 <Gregor> pikhq: I never /ignore people, but you're wandering very close to a /ignore.
06:19:55 <elliott> ^faq a perfect rendering of Gregor's webpage. The problem is, you have to talk to pikhq to get it
06:19:55 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has a perfect rendering of Gregor's webpage. The problem is, you have to talk to pikhq to get it!
06:20:15 <elliott> Gregor: I never /ignored people, but then I /ignored some people and discovered how much happier I was.
06:20:21 <elliott> Now I ignore a whole two people!
06:20:32 <pikhq> Gregor: Hey, someone else brought it up.
06:21:06 <pikhq> Gregor: You appear to be actually sending out valid XHTML that "works" as HTML in the tag soup parser. So carry on.
06:21:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Just realise you do this to absolutely 0 benefit.
06:21:31 <elliott> Gregor won't maul you because you said ":P"!
06:21:55 <calamari> elliott: I wrote that bf text gen.. just fyi.. wouldn't want you to taint yourself :)
06:22:09 <pikhq> calamari: So much for that ignore. :P
06:22:16 <elliott> it's ok, there's better ones
06:22:19 <elliott> i'm just lazy and egobot has it.
06:22:24 <elliott> now if i actually *cared* about fungot...
06:22:25 <fungot> elliott: soon to be official phoenix packages ( added fnord, last i checked
06:22:30 <calamari> pikhq: yeah took it off a while ago
06:22:40 <calamari> pikhq: was too hard to follow the conversation
06:22:48 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
06:23:16 <pikhq> elliott: The power of being vocal.
06:24:19 <pikhq> Why must IE suck so hard?
06:24:24 <elliott> pikhq: Because eurhauheuiguieghuiahriuaregh
06:24:31 <calamari> the javascript in chrome is a lot quicker than ff
06:25:06 <calamari> can actually move around that mario map without delay
06:25:33 <elliott> <calamari> the javascript in chrome is a lot quicker than ff <-- this only being, what, the *single* thing it was advertised with to start with
06:25:40 <elliott> maybe one other thing ("tabs are in their own process")
06:26:11 <pikhq> elliott: And the magic word Google.
06:26:13 <calamari> the thing that stuck out to me was it was windows-only for a long time
06:26:28 <elliott> calamari: long = like a year
06:26:46 <elliott> Standard Internet Time, abbreviation TIS.
06:27:01 <elliott> It's currently night-to-early-morning-ish TIS.
06:27:08 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
06:27:18 <elliott> "2 September 2008" first release
06:27:22 <elliott> "4 June 2009" first preview for OS X/Linux
06:27:35 <pikhq> Gregor: Hmm. Perhaps I should explain why I don't let this go. It's very simple. I'm autistic. Things that are technically WRONG annoy me *much* more than this annoys you. Simple, no?
06:27:50 <elliott> calamari: September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May, June
06:28:05 <elliott> so basically they had a baby and it was unix support.
06:28:07 <Gregor> pikhq: Are you hassling me because I'm black?
06:28:07 <pikhq> And now, I get mauled.
06:28:15 <elliott> pikhq: Doesn't mean you have to vocalise your annoyance.
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06:28:22 <Gregor> pikhq: THAT WAS AN ANALOGY BTW
06:28:45 <pikhq> elliott: But that and I and it and MAKE IT STOP ITS WRONG AND ITS STUPID AND IT HURTS
06:28:49 <elliott> pikhq: Also, are you *sure* that's consistent, considering you're not exactly the most standards-obsessed person ever?
06:28:52 <elliott> You used GNU C extensions.
06:29:02 <pikhq> elliott: It's very firmly not consistent.
06:29:18 <pikhq> elliott: It's just nails on a chalkboard times 10 billion.
06:29:24 <pikhq> elliott: For no very good reason.
06:29:35 <elliott> Speaking as someone who was diagnosed as and used to believe I had Asperger's syndrome, my brain managed to subconsciously turn it into a very useful excuse for just about anything.
06:29:36 <pikhq> elliott: I wish everyone would bow to my will now.
06:30:22 <catseye> I have this image of HTML5 as a crazy juicy pig language and I don't want to ruin the fantasy by actually learning it.
06:30:47 <elliott> catseye: there's pretty much nothing to learn
06:30:51 <elliott> catseye: first, start with HTML 4
06:30:59 <elliott> catseye: then, add a bunch of tags that are useful because everyone just made their own of them anyway.
06:31:09 <pikhq> And then take away all the things that nobody realises are there.
06:31:22 <elliott> catseye: then, use this as an opportunity to put a very-formal-English parser (states and all) for all HTML and XHTML, complaint or not, into the spec.
06:31:36 <elliott> catseye: Then, pressurise browser makers to adopt this parser, and suddenly compatibility issues go away.
06:31:41 <elliott> IIRC even *Microsoft* are going to use it.
06:31:46 <pikhq> elliott: It fails on quite a lot of compliant HTML 4, actually.
06:31:54 <elliott> pikhq: it fails on no byte string
06:32:04 <pikhq> elliott: However, nobody uses what it fails on.
06:32:21 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, it results in a *dramatically different interpretation*.
06:32:31 <catseye> Every. Time. You. Install. A. New. Package. With. Cygwin. It. Rolls. Forward. The. Versions. Of. All. Packages. That. You. Have. Rolled. Back. ANNOYING
06:32:40 <coppro> elliott: I'm not sure if it was you
06:32:42 <elliott> catseye: i once tried to write a package manager for cygwin
06:32:48 <coppro> /someone/ pinged me, and you are usually the one who does
06:32:58 <elliott> catseye: http://diveintohtml5.org/ HOW CAN YOU RESIST MARK PILGRIM
06:33:03 <elliott> catseye will now go into a conflicting-goals loop
06:33:41 <pikhq> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"><html/<title/No joking./ This is totally <b/valid/ HTML. <p/ Honest. It's actually valid./
06:34:16 <elliott> pikhq: pretty sure html 5 parser handles that.
06:34:32 <elliott> pikhq: roconnor uses that :)
06:34:41 <coppro> might have been Gregor for all I know
06:34:47 <elliott> pikhq: http://r6.ca/HtmlAsSgml.html
06:34:52 <elliott> coppro: Or someone NOT TALKING AT ALL!
06:34:55 <elliott> coppro: have you played WebSplat?
06:34:56 <pikhq> elliott: I am unaware of any web browsers outside of lynx that handle it.
06:35:00 <elliott> pikhq: http://r6.ca/HtmlAsSgml.html :D
06:35:08 <elliott> pikhq: he converts it before publication though
06:35:17 <elliott> pikhq: but he does -- or at least did -- shit like having "x_0_" be "x<sub>0</sub>"
06:35:22 <Gregor> I think I said "coppro: HI POOPPY"
06:35:26 <Gregor> (Note: I actually didn't)
06:37:12 <elliott> "While images are at the top of my list of desired medium types in a WWW browser, I don’t think we should add idiosyncratic hooks for media one at a time. Whatever happened to the enthusiasm for using the MIME typing mechanism?"
06:37:21 <elliott> helloooooooooooo <embed> <object>
06:37:28 <elliott> (ok html 5 does it too but by now it's pretty much inevitable)
06:38:08 <elliott> pikhq: did you know: old html had mathematical typesetting?
06:38:15 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/maths.html
06:38:21 <elliott> Example - the integral from a to b of f(x) over 1+x
06:38:21 <elliott> <MATH>∫_a_^b^{f(x)<over>1+x} dx</MATH>
06:38:47 <catseye> new game: every web page is an MS-DOS .EXE that draws the pages and makes the musics of the page on your speaker
06:38:56 <elliott> pikhq: note: that's HTML 3
06:38:59 <elliott> pikhq: no relation to HTML 3.2
06:39:22 <elliott> pikhq: HTML 3 was Dave Raggett's zomg-i-made-it-awesome spec, and outside of Arena (Amaya's predecessor), it was never implemented
06:39:53 <elliott> catseye: would you like a giant spider 49579579348578925894789234 times, -1.3 times, i times, Bark! times, or SUPREME FLUSHING times bigger than you?
06:39:59 <pikhq> elliott: Someone should implement a platonic ideal HTML implementation.
06:40:02 <elliott> catseye: You can also have one a different number of times bigger than you, if you want.
06:40:19 <pikhq> elliott: If it has a full SGML DTD, it renders according to that. Otherwise, it uses the HTML 5 parser.
06:40:21 <elliott> catseye: (And some of them may not be numbers, like some of the times I have in my message!)
06:40:28 <pikhq> elliott: That would be awesome but pretty hard to do.
06:40:35 <coppro> elliott: yes. yes I have
06:40:35 <elliott> Your MOM would be pretty hard to do.
06:40:55 <pikhq> And it'd get crazier still with CSS...
06:41:26 <coppro> elliott: no; just I've played websplat
06:41:36 <elliott> coppro: http://havenworks.com/
06:41:40 <elliott> coppro: It is WebSplat's final boss.
06:41:49 <elliott> pikhq: just implement CSS by translating to XSLT >:D
06:41:54 <elliott> coppro: We have been playing it for days.
06:42:00 <elliott> coppro: Top score is 800something by Gregor's inhuman friend.
06:42:06 <elliott> coppro: Top score by actual people is 500/600something.
06:42:08 <catseye> elliott: that was hilarious
06:42:32 <elliott> catseye: I suppose it is. Some people might not find it hilarious, though. But maybe they might find something else hilarious.
06:42:45 <coppro> websplat hsa scores now
06:42:46 <elliott> catseye: Do you think Enhanced CWEB should support a big spider three times as big as you?
06:42:51 <elliott> coppro: Yes... yes it does. And enemies.
06:43:01 <elliott> coppro: The goal is to collect all the images.
06:43:10 <elliott> caches do weird shit to websplat.
06:43:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, and no, it's not because you're black, but because. Uh. YOUR MOTHER IS FEMALE.
06:43:19 <elliott> pikhq: Dude... necroreply.
06:43:30 <pikhq> elliott: I'm calling it a non sequitur at this point.
06:44:01 <elliott> catseye: I have added it in Enhanced CWEB so that if you type *x to dereference a pointer it shows it as an x in a big star. Do you think of any other displayings I could add to Enhanced CWEB?
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06:47:28 <Gregor> pikhq: THERE, IT'S ALL HTML NOW
06:47:31 <Gregor> pikhq: GO AWAAAAAAAAAY
06:47:36 <pikhq> Gregor: VICTORY IS MINE
06:48:19 <pikhq> Gregor: THOUGH I DIDN'T KNOW HTML 5 HAD SELF-CLOSING TAGS
06:48:31 <elliott> pikhq: XHTML 5 DOES BUT ONLY WHEN SERVED AS XML
06:48:37 <Gregor> According to the validator it does. And I like them anyway.
06:49:09 <Gregor> Also, Unicorn requires some weird Apache Java libraries I don't feel like finding :P
06:49:36 <pikhq> It most certainly does have them.
06:49:36 <elliott> Gregor: "Themes Inexplicably Stuck iun my Head"
06:50:06 <Gregor> elliott: ... wow. That has presumably been there for years.
06:50:14 <elliott> Gregor: That's what she said.
06:50:18 <pikhq> Gregor: According to the working draft it has self-closing tags. Wonderful.
06:50:25 <elliott> Gregor: you probably want "My" too
06:50:40 <catseye> OK, fixed my news page. Have vague plans to fix... other pages by shotgun-blasting .htaccess files into every directory.
06:51:02 <catseye> First, need to see what this does to IE.
06:51:11 <pikhq> HTML 5 appears to have saner syntax than HTML 4 *and* XHTML. Awesome.
06:51:35 <Gregor> OPTIONAL self-closing tags != sane.
06:52:21 <catseye> MIME Type: application/xhtml xml
06:52:23 <elliott> catseye: err, .htaccess is recursive i think
06:52:37 <elliott> catseye: IE doesn't handle it at all
06:52:40 <elliott> you CAN condition on it in .htaccess
06:52:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Before HTML 5, HTML used a completely different syntax from what every implementation used.
06:52:53 <Gregor> Example, to send your password file to the server, where 'password' is the name of the form-field to which /etc/passwd will
06:52:54 <Gregor> curl -F password=@/etc/passwd www.mypasswords.com
06:54:55 <elliott> curl -F password=@/etc/shadow www.ministryoffinanceofficial.ng
06:54:57 <catseye> elliott: You're right, .htaccess is recursive!
06:55:11 <catseye> That means... there are a handful of non-XHTML pages that are broken now
06:55:40 <catseye> First I need to decide if I am OK with freaking out all IE browsers before 9
06:55:52 <elliott> catseye: You can fix it in the .htaccess with a browser condition.
06:55:55 <elliott> catseye: But, you know what?
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06:56:04 <elliott> catseye: You have a command to regenerate your entire site, right?
06:56:21 <elliott> catseye: Gimme your toolchain and I'll make it spit out HTML 5 instead :P
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06:56:43 <catseye> TURKEY BOMB is ok but plankalkuel needs some loving
06:57:43 <elliott> catseye: is it too TOP SECRET
06:59:11 <catseye> yes and yes but more I meant, No, I like serving XHTML.
06:59:44 <catseye> it's like the WEIRDO html now (aside from HTML 3, of course)
07:00:02 <elliott> catseye: but i can do better
07:00:05 <elliott> catseye: i can make it serve XHTML 5.
07:00:13 <elliott> note: Sam Ruby is the only other person in the world to use XHTML 5
07:01:10 <pikhq> elliott: Worth it though.
07:01:40 <pikhq> AND I SHOULD SLEEP SOON
07:02:11 <elliott> pikhq: I SHOULD TOO IT'S 7 AM
07:02:15 <elliott> OMG I LOVE THIS SLEEP SCHEDULE SO MUCH
07:02:33 <elliott> and then just when you think it's over
07:03:24 <elliott> pikhq: i swear, it's awesome
07:03:29 <elliott> i'm totally ready for sleep now, right?
07:03:52 <elliott> pikhq: and you get a whole sixteen hours awake!
07:04:02 <elliott> and then eight hours of sleep.
07:04:09 <elliott> you skip the shitty morning crap.
07:05:08 <fizzie> It's six hours between 7am and 3pm; how do you cram eight hours of sleep in there?
07:05:28 <fizzie> Well, it's six metric hours, anyway.
07:05:37 <catseye> I wonder if I can make the XHTML goodness conditional on !IE in the .htaccess somehow
07:06:02 <catseye> I wonder if pikhq will object to me being selectively conformant like that
07:06:03 <elliott> catseye: like i told you three fucking times
07:07:00 <elliott> catseye: what's your rule to add the header?
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07:07:46 <catseye> elliott: AddType application/xhtml+xml .html
07:07:56 <elliott> catseye: prepare for the crazy
07:10:41 <Gregor> I want a validator that validates a file as both HTML5 (draft) and XHTML whatever (modulo the incorrect doctype declaration)
07:10:57 <Gregor> Basically, I want it to bitch when I don't close tags, even when that's considered OK since HTML is so awful.
07:11:04 <elliott> RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !MSIE
07:11:04 <elliott> RewriteRule ^.*\.html$ $0 [L,T=application/xhtml+xml]
07:11:04 <fizzie> Gregor: Maybe a pony to go with it, too?
07:11:09 <elliott> catseye: Replace your existing rule with it.
07:11:18 <Gregor> fizzie: Naw, but my kitty could use a friend.
07:11:42 <elliott> catseye: But it should work!
07:11:53 <catseye> elliott: where did the simple go?
07:12:00 <elliott> catseye: it's three lines dammit!
07:12:17 <elliott> catseye: and it sets the right header on .html-ending URLs for everything that isn't IE
07:12:46 <elliott> Gregor: IE is very experienced at parsing tag soup :P
07:12:59 <elliott> for instance, it's done it all catseye.tc's existence
07:13:05 <Gregor> elliott: IE9 in non-standards-compliance mode is a horrible pile of garbage.
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07:13:16 <elliott> Gregor: IE is a horrible pile of garbage.
07:13:18 <fizzie> I've seen that done with application/xhtml+xml as the default, and then RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} MSIE, RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} \.html$, RewriteRule .* - [T=text/html] instead, but that's pretty close.
07:13:19 <Gregor> elliott: Whereas IE9 in standards-compliant mode is an almost-tolerable browser.
07:13:29 <elliott> fizzie: Mine's totally better.
07:13:31 <catseye> Gregor: I'm gonna try it out! Next time I reboot tho
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07:13:34 <Gregor> elliott: Have you used IE9 beta? It's actually approaching where the other browsers in ~05
07:13:35 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, does - work?
07:13:50 <fizzie> elliott: It would be even better with - instead of $0, right.
07:13:53 <elliott> RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !MSIE
07:13:53 <elliott> RewriteRule \.html$ - [L,T=application/xhtml+xml]
07:13:57 <fizzie> "A dash indicates that no substitution should be performed (the existing path is passed through untouched). This is used when a flag (see below) needs to be applied without changing the path."
07:14:04 <elliott> catseye: ^ That should work perfectly.
07:14:14 <elliott> catseye: You don't actually need the L, in there but *eh*.
07:15:38 <elliott> it is *possible* that your host doesn't have mod_rewrite
07:16:27 <catseye> oh! but it seems to work now
07:16:59 <catseye> viewable in IE, xmltastic in FF
07:17:09 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ curl -sI catseye.tc | grep Content-Type
07:17:09 <elliott> Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml
07:17:09 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ curl -A MSIE -sI catseye.tc | grep Content-Type
07:17:26 <catseye> still don't know to what extent this is pikhq-approved
07:17:57 <elliott> catseye: uh, as much as he approves of sending to IE at all
07:18:38 <catseye> i am only being noncompliant to something that is itself staggeringly noncompliant
07:19:46 * Gregor has a sudden strong urge to make all his pages detect if the browser is IE, and if so do setInterval(function(){for(var i=0;i<100000;i++);},0)
07:21:22 * catseye has a sudden strong urge to invent vixie cron
07:21:34 <elliott> Gregor: function f(){for(;;){alert("x");setTimeout(f,0);}}
07:21:40 <elliott> wait the alert probably fixes it
07:21:58 <Gregor> elliott: No, you want it to just be slow and awful, so they blame the browser rather than you.
07:22:05 <elliott> Gregor: function f(){for(;;){for(i=0;i<1000)setTimeout(f,0)}}
07:22:17 <elliott> Gregor: they never blame the browser :P
07:29:26 <catseye> Gregor: they blame you personally
07:29:55 <catseye> i suppose you would make that justified
07:30:29 <elliott> javascript:(function(){function f(){for(;;){for(i=0;i<1000)setTimeout(f,0)}};f()})()
07:31:31 <Gregor> elliott: Value of a walk button on a scale from 0 to 10
07:31:58 <elliott> Gregor: ever played xjump?
07:32:02 <elliott> it's like the slippiness you have on crack
07:39:24 <Gregor> THE DOOR CAN SEE INTO YOUR MIND
07:39:27 <Gregor> THE DOOR CAN SEE INTO YOUR SOUL
07:43:52 <Gregor> /nick xX[GenericEmoKid]Xx
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08:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> 14:27:34 <quintopia> he died 14:27:38 <quintopia> he doesn't want to admit ← well, you caught me out there.
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08:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sodding graphics card, breaking whenever I try to run pretty things.
09:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, quintopia meant died in WebSplat!, not real life.
09:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> In that case, I actually did stop at 600 (not voluntarily, though).
09:09:14 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: I think you should install some software.
09:09:29 <catseye> I have no preference as to what software that may be.
09:10:08 <catseye> Oh, you've been dealing with something horrible haven't you. Don't remember the name right now.
09:10:27 <catseye> About nine letters long is all I can recall
09:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, all of the APT esolang packages _suck_, so I won't be going down that road.
09:14:40 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ apt-cache search . | head -n `perl -e 'print int(rand(28848))+1'` | tail -n 1
09:14:40 <fizzie> libglobus-gsi-openssl-error-dev - Globus Toolkit - Globus OpenSSL Error Handling Development Files
09:15:03 <fizzie> Rerun it if necessary; tailor 28848 to be "apt-cache search . | wc -l" if necessary.
09:15:56 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ apt-cache search . | perl -e '@a = <>; print $a[int(rand(@a))];'
09:15:56 <fizzie> language-support-fonts-my - Additional fonts metapackage for Burmese
09:16:01 <fizzie> That's another good choice.
09:16:11 <fizzie> (With an improved random-picker.)
09:20:09 <catseye> Install them both, then complain to us when your Global OpenSSL error messages won't display in Burmese.
09:21:36 <fizzie> Alternatively, install the package with the longest name. In my case that would be libmaypole-plugin-authentication-usersessioncookie-perl.
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09:52:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, on what page?
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16:04:10 <cpressey> what's a good rss feed aggregator/subscription service and/or how to i unbork firefox (the latter)
16:05:56 <ais523_> cpressey: I use Akregator, although it's probably Linux-specific
16:06:11 <ais523_> it's nothing particularly special, just sits in the background out of your way and reads RSS feeds
16:06:34 <ais523_> it's a little annoying in how it handles links, though (left-click opens it in an embedded browser, middle-click opens in your main browser which is normally what I want)
16:07:43 <cpressey> ais523_: I think I got Live Bookmarks working in FF again (I think), so I am probably ok, but thanks
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16:46:31 <elliott> 03:24:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> I'll descend a single column, rather than zigzagging/
16:47:28 <ais523> hmm, for some reason I get nickpinged by everything ais523_ says
16:47:41 <ais523> nickpinging based on /nick/ seems a little ridiculous
16:49:20 <ais523> elliott: I have a highlight for "ais523" no matter what my current nick
16:49:24 <ais523> but it's still ridiculous
16:49:47 <elliott> 46.4 MiB of 6.1 GiB (0.73%)
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17:03:41 <ais523> elliott: what timeconsuming task are you doing?
17:04:08 <elliott> ais523: getting lots of little bits of data from various nodes of the internet
17:04:37 <elliott> ais523: and verifying them, thus replicating a file on my hard drive without the use of a centralised server to obtain it
17:05:14 <elliott> ais523: apparently it's only 16 hours to go though! yaaaay
17:08:12 <cpressey> elliott: so what exactly did you steal again? a reflective term rewriting language where the meaning of a term is defined solely by the context at the point at which it is rewritten? plus a lot of misguided thoughts for how this could be a "practical" language despite not really knowing how to program in it?
17:08:32 <elliott> cpressey: actually, just "a term rewriting language"
17:08:44 <elliott> which is so totally your idea and dear god i have never seen a glass that close to spilling NOT spill
17:09:04 <elliott> usually when it gets horizontal you enact your disaster recovery plan...
17:09:09 <elliott> maybe my fingers as slippery as sgeo's
17:09:34 <cpressey> People are all about the "Turing this" and the "Church that" but... but... mad props to Post, people, POST!
17:10:19 <elliott> cpressey: Church-Turing-Post thesis, man!
17:11:28 <elliott> cpressey: I've always had something for rewriting languages, I guess.
17:11:55 <elliott> Thue, Redivider (is only sort of rewriting, but still), a lot of my liking of Joy is due to its similarity to a rewriting system, Q and Pure are nice...
17:11:55 <ais523> elliott: I've had glasses like that not spill due to being empty
17:12:11 <elliott> ais523: yes, this one was... not quite empty.
17:12:28 <elliott> ais523: i was already thinking about whether getting the orange juice of the keyboard was feasible or whether i should just pick a new one off the stack
17:12:35 <elliott> (I totally have a mental stack of keyboards!)
17:12:53 <elliott> Liquids near computers: Genius!
17:14:09 <elliott> it occurs to me that i could probably obtain this file faster via snailmail...
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17:17:34 <cpressey> i just clicked somewhere on my desktop and apparently closed two windows and a tab simultaneously
17:18:00 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/G3SQS.png
17:18:05 <elliott> cpressey: it's Ubuntu Usability
17:18:14 <elliott> cpressey: it's yet another feature!
17:18:26 <elliott> fun fact: all the new features in windows 7 are just bugs introduced into vista during development
17:18:33 <elliott> that task bar wouldn't display the fucking window titles!
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17:19:47 <ais523> elliott: actually, it's a toggle to display the titles
17:19:55 <cpressey> No, I am actually on Ubuntu right now.
17:20:00 <ais523> win7 became much more bearable for me when I found out how to switch the taskbar back to XP-like
17:20:02 <elliott> ais523: letting facts get in the way of a joke?
17:20:10 <elliott> wait, you can't do that via the UI
17:20:17 <ais523> right-click the taskbar, IIRC
17:20:31 <ais523> and it's a couple of dialogs down from there
17:20:43 <ais523> I would check, but that would require actually booting up Windows
17:21:01 <elliott> ais523: i guess nobody had figured it out when i was trying 7 :)
17:21:16 <elliott> ais523: http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/sshot67.png
17:21:20 <elliott> ais523: guess the windows version!
17:21:25 <elliott> oh wait, you don't get links
17:21:37 <ais523> failing that, Windows 2!
17:21:51 <ais523> hmm, perhaps 7 based on context
17:22:21 <elliott> ais523: <img src="http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/sshot67.png" alt="A picture of a Windows Classic styled taskbar, with 'Pictures', 'win7', 'Screen Resolution' and a cut off item starting 'Ed'. The Windows logo on the Start button is that of Vista onwards, without the surrounding orb.">
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17:22:51 <ais523> elliott: so probably 7 then
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17:23:00 <elliott> ais523: you get an unfairly helpful description prize!
17:23:05 <ais523> also, that's the most ingenious (and correct!) use of alt text I've seen
17:23:13 <ais523> posting it to IRC for someone who refuses to view images...
17:23:49 <ais523> I was thinking that it would be nice if there was a bot that looked up the alt text of images, but that would be unreasonably complex
17:24:12 <ais523> first it would have to use a search engine to find sites that embedded the image, then it would need to look up their alt texts, then it would need to decide which to show...
17:24:19 <ais523> *pages that embedded the image
17:24:37 <elliott> ais523: searching like that doesn't work for images, as far as i can tell
17:24:39 <elliott> at least, it never has for me
17:24:45 <elliott> ais523: pretty sure searches are done on a plaintext version
17:24:54 <elliott> which probably uses the alt text of images
17:26:14 <elliott> ais523: any opinions on the recent WikiLeaks happenings?
17:26:29 <elliott> it seems the media is as good as ever at managing to distract from revelations they don't particularly like
17:26:53 <ais523> elliott: hmm... a Google search for link:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg/220px-INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg.png fails
17:27:05 <ais523> more interesting is what happens in a Google Images search for that (with the link:)
17:27:20 <ais523> it drops the /entire search query/ because it doesn't make sense for that sort of query, yet /returns results anyway/
17:27:28 <ais523> so I think it returns the "first image on Google", or whatever
17:27:53 <elliott> i've always wanted to search google for *
17:28:17 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't work for me
17:28:19 <elliott> Your search - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41 ... - did not match any documents.
17:28:37 <ais523> elliott: hmm, try turning JavaScript off and forbidding cookies (which is my setup for accessing Google)?
17:28:43 <ais523> the cookies probably don't matter, come to think of it
17:28:57 <elliott> ais523: why not just use scroogle, at that point?
17:29:41 <elliott> i just searched for the url
17:29:45 <ais523> yes, for link: followed by the URL
17:29:56 <elliott> ais523: does the same for google.com
17:30:00 <ais523> elliott: because I trust the owners of scroogle even less than I trust Google
17:30:02 <elliott> ais523: defenselink.mil, discuss
17:30:09 <elliott> ais523: also, pretty good point
17:30:12 <ais523> yep, it's defenselink.mil for me too
17:30:21 <ais523> hmm, I don't think I actually /distrust/ Google
17:30:23 <fizzie> Looks surprisingly consistent.
17:30:28 <ais523> they just don't act the way I want them to
17:30:29 <elliott> In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 35 already displayed.
17:30:29 <elliott> If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included.
17:30:40 <ais523> and blocking cookies, etc., makes it act more like the way I want them to
17:30:41 <elliott> the military propaganda is ENDLESS lawl
17:30:59 <elliott> every single result is from defenselink.mil
17:30:59 <ais523> (in particular, they keep trying to customize things to me when I don't want them to)
17:31:19 <ais523> elliott: you remember the "bush hid the facts" thing? you could probably submit that to the same sort of conspiracy site
17:31:38 <elliott> ais523: I don't think conspiracy sites were the prime things for that... more "stupid shit" sites
17:32:23 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: hmm... a Google search for link:[...] <-- what a wtf url it had
17:32:45 <Vorpal> (cut out to not prevent you from seeing what I just said)
17:32:48 <ais523> Vorpal: it's the URL of the thumbnail
17:32:59 <ais523> the URL of the image itself is more sensible
17:33:07 <ais523> but the image itself isn't shown on the page
17:35:17 <ais523> and really, the URL is pretty sensible for a PNG thumnail of an SVG image
17:38:42 <elliott> Thum nail, the nail of thums.
17:50:02 <cpressey> scroogle collects your search terms to feed to their army of demon-hedgehogs
17:57:24 <elliott> it collects your army of demon-hedgehogs to feed to their search terms
17:57:43 <elliott> cpressey: SO NETBSD [mauled by owls and/or bears]
17:58:04 <elliott> no two lines can annoy two people more.
17:58:10 <elliott> i have mastered the internet
17:58:21 * elliott wouldn't be surprised if ais523 has an ignore on *feather*
18:03:51 <cpressey> elliott: Gonna make it work, coach! Gonna give 110%! Woof woof woof
18:04:16 <elliott> cpressey: I can see AROS' FURRY INFLUENCE is rubbing off on you.
18:08:13 <cpressey> elliott: http://www.rdwarf.com/users/kioh/haxorec54KB.jpg
18:10:35 <cpressey> Anyway, "woof woof woof" was more an attempt to make the sounds a football player makes to psych himself up.
18:10:37 <Gregor> elliott, pikhq_: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11573666
18:11:18 <elliott> i... had a favourite webcomic, i have forgotten it
18:11:29 <elliott> Gregor: wait, why did you just ping me?
18:11:43 <Gregor> To bother a FONTophile :P
18:12:11 <Gregor> Yes, forwarding a link somebody sent me is an enormous effort.
18:13:19 <elliott> Gregor: unlike you, i know that the bbc tends to report on just about any paper which can be turned into a snazzy headline. also, "according to scientists". also, i totally believe that a single, random paper has shot down centuries of practice and research, yes, I am broken :P
18:13:43 <elliott> anyway i don't care that much about non-fiction
18:13:50 <elliott> and for fiction obviously reading comfort takes precedence over remembering things
18:14:05 <elliott> <elliott> anyway i don't care that much about non-fiction <-- typesetting that is
18:15:58 <elliott> ais523: have you played WebSplat yet?
18:16:05 <elliott> note: playing websplat not optional
18:16:30 <Gregor> My cat always chooses the exact moment I start eating to jump into my lap.
18:17:03 <elliott> Gregor: did you ever move the favicon goombas server-side?
18:17:58 <elliott> Gregor: do I need to flush my cache?
18:19:48 <Gregor> Two images per second ain't bad.
18:19:57 <elliott> Gregor: Is time 1/2 seconds?
18:20:01 <Gregor> You must think seconds are REALLY FAST :P
18:20:09 <elliott> Gregor: I... yeah, pretty much.
18:20:18 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, that means an estimated playthrough would be like...
18:20:42 <Gregor> This is like how people play SMW and say "Ack I only have 10 seconds left!" when they have WELL under 10 seconds.'
18:21:12 <elliott> Gregor: Actually using your friend's esimate a playthrough *would* take about 50 minutes.
18:21:30 <elliott> But more like 30 minutes with the 500 in 1000 something one you had.
18:21:45 <elliott> 1800 would probably give a better estimate.
18:21:48 <elliott> Gregor: tl;dr this is hard
18:23:29 <elliott> Gregor: lawl I died on top of a dog.
18:27:28 <elliott> I hate it when they're ont he thin blue column X_
18:27:59 <Gregor> Collision detection is a fickle mistress :P
18:30:24 <elliott> Gregor: I love how beyond the far-right column there's a few utterly inexplicable invisible platforms.
18:30:42 <elliott> Gregor: Also, how favicon goombas just walk off the right edge of the page and fall to the bottom for no good reason at all.
18:31:08 <Gregor> Favicon goombas don't platform detect, they wander off platforms unless a wall blocks them.
18:31:11 <elliott> Gregor: GIVE US A LOOK FUNCTION :P
18:34:44 <elliott> Gregor: FYI, the last column is the easiest to start with by far.
18:34:49 <elliott> 219@344 and now I'll ascend back up.
18:35:03 <elliott> Admittedly, you have to cross back over.
18:37:42 <elliott> Gregor: lawl, this is hard
18:45:05 <elliott> Gregor: I have a strategy idea.
18:45:26 <elliott> Gregor: Go in columns, but only for a certain length; make sure you finish all the columns up to a certain length, and then start from the beginning again.
18:45:32 <elliott> This avoids the point of no return.
18:47:23 <cpressey> elliott: so that Rewrite Crap For IE magic you provided last night (thanks btw) -- how do I turn it *off* for a particular directory, i.e. override it in an .htaccess file local to that directory?
18:47:38 <elliott> cpressey: can you paste your current file for me and i'll modify it accordingly? thx
18:47:55 <elliott> cpressey: btw i ought to get compensation for this, mod_rewrite is one of the scariest things in the universe
18:48:08 <elliott> olsner used it to turn a browser into a something interpreter
18:48:10 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/.htaccess heh no what?
18:48:20 <elliott> cpressey: that probably won't load
18:48:24 <elliott> generally .htaccess access is blocked
18:48:33 <elliott> cpressey: lol your 404 is invalid xml
18:48:46 <elliott> cpressey: you can set your own 404 if you want
18:48:48 <olsner> elliott: not the browser, the web server, but yeah
18:48:56 <elliott> olsner: well, the browser has to go there repeatedly
18:49:02 <elliott> so it's the browser using the server, really
18:49:15 <olsner> no, apache does the rewriting in the configuration I used
18:49:27 <elliott> cpressey: ErrorDocument 404 404.html
18:49:38 <elliott> olsner: yes, but it just returns the next evaluation step
18:49:42 <elliott> it's only TC if it's repeatedly evaluated
18:49:44 <elliott> which is what the browser does
18:50:07 <elliott> cpressey: anyway okay i'll just fish out my own .htaccess SHEESH :P
18:50:19 <cpressey> RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !MSIE
18:50:20 <cpressey> RewriteRule \.html$ - [L,T=application/xhtml+xml]
18:51:03 <elliott> in an .htaccess in the specific directories
18:51:07 <elliott> cpressey: i'd do it in the main one
18:51:16 <elliott> cpressey: which is probably easier to maintain.
18:51:19 <olsner> elliott: no, apache goes through all of it in a loop in mod_rewrite then produces the final URL and sends the output of that URI (forget if it's with one of those moved headers or if apache just sends the contents of the final URL)
18:51:30 <cpressey> yeah i suppose that makes more sense
18:51:34 <elliott> cpressey: i mean obviously it's up to you, but
18:51:43 <elliott> cpressey: it's a bit more involved that way
18:51:49 <elliott> i'll look it up since i have the manual open anyway
18:51:51 <olsner> unfortunately, both browsers and mod_rewrite have a limit on the number of rewrite steps
18:52:01 <elliott> cpressey: the per-directory file solution is more standalone, but the single one is more maintainable
18:52:25 <olsner> and mod_rewrite frees *nothing* that it allocates for a single request so you'll run out of memory quickly
18:54:16 <elliott> RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !MSIE
18:54:16 <elliott> RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} !^directory1
18:54:16 <elliott> RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} !^directory2/subdir
18:54:16 <elliott> RewriteRule \.html$ - [L,T=application/xhtml+xml]
18:54:23 <elliott> there are other ways to do it, but this does it all in one file, and all from mod_rewrite
18:54:51 <elliott> ErrorDocument 404 404.html
18:54:53 <elliott> cpressey: and put some valid XHTML in there
18:54:58 <elliott> cpressey: because right now your 404 page is broken
18:55:20 <elliott> cpressey: hmm actually you may want /404.html there
18:56:23 <cpressey> according to scientists, my site is broken!
18:57:13 <olsner> I wonder if there are any suitable redirection methods that (usually) have no recursion guards
18:57:21 <fizzie> Is there a browser limit on the number of consecutive <meta http-equiv="refresh" content="1;url=xxx"> redirections?
18:57:38 <elliott> fizzie: i think you can omit the 1;
18:57:46 <cpressey> But what science solves, science can soon fix! nurr
18:57:48 <fizzie> You can put in 0, but where's the fun in that.
18:57:59 <fizzie> With 1 you can see it run.
18:57:59 <elliott> cpressey: Is it not working?
18:58:11 <elliott> cpressey: You might not want to try and understand mod_rewrite, dude.
18:58:19 <elliott> cpressey: You think it's innocuous, but *no*
18:58:37 <elliott> ``The great thing about mod_rewrite is it gives you all the configurability and flexibility of Sendmail. The downside to mod_rewrite is that it gives you all the configurability and flexibility of Sendmail.''
18:58:52 <cpressey> elliott: How did a beautiful theory like rewriting birth monstrosities like XSLT and mod_rewrite, anyway?
18:59:07 <elliott> cpressey: I... cannot parse that sentence.
18:59:33 <cpressey> How did a theory as beautiful as that which we call rewriting, birth...
18:59:39 <olsner> if it's supposed to be used for configuration, it's usually a bad sign if it is turing complete (or would be turing complete were it not for e.g. recursion limits)
19:00:10 <elliott> cpressey: Because of Post's law.
19:00:15 <elliott> (Note: I just made that up.)
19:00:17 <fizzie> zpaste runs on mod_rewrite: http://p.zem.fi/rewrites -- that's nothing very hairy yet, of course.
19:00:33 <elliott> fizzie: Does zpaste have any user-visible infrastructure yet? :P
19:00:48 <elliott> Or are you KEEPING ALL THE FUN FROM US
19:00:53 <fizzie> Well, there's the command-line client.
19:01:04 <elliott> fizzie: Which is private? :P
19:01:14 <Gregor> elliott: I like your new strategy though
19:01:15 <elliott> Gregor: What do you think about my new strategy?
19:01:34 <elliott> Gregor: I suggest the first "block" to do is the one where all the columns are filled.
19:01:40 <elliott> After that it gets a bit more mrfy, if you know what I mean.
19:01:40 <fizzie> elliott: No, it's all included in the github place. I was intending to make a tiny little change -- I can't quite recall what it was right now -- to make it trivial to do a web-form for posting new pastes.
19:01:45 <elliott> cpressey: Maybe slightly less than that.
19:02:05 <fizzie> I like how the first google-hit on zpaste is "The Ultimate Cam Assembly Lubricant #7240".
19:02:21 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-25-soScrewed.png , immediately followed by http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-25-2-soDead.png
19:02:37 <elliott> Gregor: I think that I will like these images once they load.
19:02:51 <elliott> Gregor: Your server is wowslow.
19:03:03 <elliott> Gregor: That is not so screwed.
19:03:24 <Gregor> I needed to take them both out to get to the images below safely :p
19:03:32 <elliott> Gregor: If you had managed that jump you could have got to the far left and dude we're playing on different pages.
19:03:41 <elliott> That last column is super-wide for me.
19:04:00 <Gregor> Getting to the far left wouldn't have helped, I needed the images below the enemies :P
19:04:05 <elliott> Gregor: All our scores are irrelevant relative to each other's X_X
19:04:19 <Gregor> It's still roughly equal difficulty I'm sure :P
19:04:41 <Gregor> How ridiculously wide is your screen...?
19:05:06 <elliott> Gregor: *But* I do have the actual non-free fonts the page uses.
19:05:23 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I'm playing with DejaVu Serif and Arial.
19:05:26 <Gregor> Soyeah, mine is wider :P
19:05:28 <elliott> Gregor: DejaVu Serif because it's my default font.
19:05:34 <elliott> Gregor: Arial because the page sets Arial.
19:05:42 <elliott> Set up your Chrome accordingly :P
19:05:44 <Gregor> Yeah, I doubt I have Arial.
19:05:50 <elliott> Gregor: Also: You have a smaller font size than me.
19:06:00 <elliott> ...either that or your antialiasing is just that much.
19:06:05 <Gregor> Ugh, probably has to do with DPI X_X
19:06:08 <elliott> Yeah no it's the same size.
19:06:30 <elliott> Gregor: I suggest setting up Chrome to have DejaVu Sans as default serif and then installing the Microsoft core fonts for FAIRNESS :P
19:06:37 <elliott> I have my DPI set to 96 like everyone else in the universe.
19:06:47 <Gregor> Lesse your screenshot.
19:08:17 <olsner> cpressey: I can't imagine either of mod_rewrite or xslt actually coming from the theory of string rewriting, both just seem like horrible accidents to me
19:08:28 <cpressey> elliott: just fyi: it needs to be RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} !^/directory1 with the slash
19:09:12 <cpressey> and my CSS is a little wack with XHTML, but nothing too bad.
19:09:31 <elliott> Gregor: http://i.imgur.com/1Oske.png
19:10:26 <Gregor> elliott: Thank you for choosing a screenshot that does little to prove your very point :P
19:10:50 <elliott> cpressey: "Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request." might wanna create that file :P
19:11:01 <olsner> hmm, I feel vaguely inspired by that screenshot
19:11:06 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:11:58 <olsner> maybe something like a UserJS that transforms any site into a similar monstrosity
19:12:23 <Gregor> olsner: You'd need to generate a lot of lorem ipsum for most sites.
19:13:10 <cpressey> Gregor: olsner: http://www.lorizzle.nl/?feed=1
19:13:40 <cpressey> (reload to see my gnarly new 404 page)
19:14:37 <olsner> Gregor: or maybe you could inline linked pages to provide contents
19:14:48 <olsner> it is quite high density this thing
19:15:20 <elliott> Gregor: http://imgur.com/HQ05D.png
19:16:13 <cpressey> elliott: heyyyyyyy I can use frickin mod_rewrite on my site!
19:16:25 <cpressey> the potential of awesome power just dawned on me!
19:16:42 <elliott> cpressey: IF YOU TURN ON CONTENT NEGOTIATION YOU CAN DROP THE .HTML FROM THE END OF PAGES ISN'T THAT SO *2.0*
19:17:39 <elliott> Gregor: Oh shit I left all my super-private searches in those screenshots *sob*
19:17:55 <olsner> python's yield: sufficiently similar to continuations you get annoyed that they aren't more similar
19:18:19 <Gregor> elliott: I honestly don't understand how having a slightly different font would change the /width/ of that column, that should be a rather immutable rule of flow ... ohhh unless some title forced it wider ...
19:18:32 <elliott> Gregor: The header at the top is superwide.
19:18:58 <Gregor> elliott: For me, with Arial, it's still the same width.
19:19:18 <elliott> olsner: I could totally reference Encyclopedia Dramatica here, but it stands for "in this topic" and it's a stupid 4chan thing that got spread to /prog/ which is where I picked it up and then everywhere ever and it just means... nothing
19:19:33 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, set default serif font to DejaVu Serif in Chrome.
19:19:47 <Gregor> I don't even know how to do that :P
19:19:50 <olsner> elliott: nothing? ok :)
19:19:50 <elliott> Gregor: Preferences -> Under the Bonnet -> Web Content -> Change font and language settings
19:19:57 <elliott> Gregor: It's Under the Hood for you :P
19:20:03 <elliott> olsner: Well, it means, "here" or "current topic" or...
19:20:05 <Gregor> Wow, that is some awesome i18n.
19:20:10 <elliott> "In this topic" except s/topic/current conversation thread/
19:20:19 <elliott> Gregor: IT IS I orgasmed with glee when I saw it. Uh, or something.
19:20:37 <Gregor> elliott: Size 12 I assume?
19:21:03 <elliott> Fixed-width at 13 but I doubt that changes anything.
19:21:10 <elliott> Gregor: You should set the default sans font to DejaVu Sans, too.
19:21:15 <elliott> Just in case it uses "sans" somewhere.
19:21:20 <olsner> well, continuations can be used to implement coroutines, right? then just continuations should be sufficient
19:21:35 <Gregor> elliott: OK, now it's all DejaVu <Something> 16
19:21:44 <Gregor> Indeed it looks more similar now.
19:21:44 <elliott> Gregor: Monospaced should be 13 :P
19:21:59 <elliott> <elliott> Fixed-width at 13 but I doubt that changes anything.
19:22:11 <Gregor> It does in fact change ... something.
19:22:35 <elliott> Gregor: Now for exact results, use the Ubuntu-patched freetype renderer with their settings :P
19:22:50 <elliott> Gregor: (Or just slight hinting would do it, really :p)
19:22:55 <Gregor> Also set my screen width the same :P
19:23:08 <elliott> Gregor: HavenWorks is resolution-independent!
19:23:12 <elliott> That's also the ONLY thing it is!
19:24:16 <elliott> Gregor: sheesh you haven't even noticed the tabs I inexplicably forgot to close beforehand
19:24:28 <Gregor> I noticed, they were just stupid :P
19:24:33 <elliott> also, I totally do replace all my tabs with new ones in-between screenshots
19:24:36 <elliott> Gregor: Gee, I feel so unloved.
19:24:41 <elliott> Unloved like... something that's...
19:27:31 <Gregor> Would you be fine with the look function if it wasn't smooth?
19:27:34 <Gregor> (Just popped down or up)
19:28:09 <elliott> Gregor: Sure, but it's easy enough to do a gradual scroll.
19:28:14 <elliott> Gregor: Just use scrollTo or whatever it is in a for loop :P
19:28:20 <elliott> Even if it is only down or up.
19:28:22 <elliott> Gregor: Left or right too?
19:28:25 <elliott> Anyway I'm not sure I do want it.
19:28:59 <Gregor> It's NOT easy enough to gradually scroll when that gradual scrolling conflicts with the scrolling based on character location.
19:29:22 <elliott> [[Bees can quickly solve "travelling salesman problem"]]
19:29:24 <cpressey> i want to jump from tab to tab IMPLEMENT THAT
19:29:31 <elliott> Gregor: Just make that depend on a flag and turn it off for the scroll? :p
19:29:40 <elliott> Gregor: But yeah, I don't think it's a good idea.
19:29:50 <elliott> The game mechanics are pretty solid already.
19:30:08 <Gregor> One less thing for me to do :P
19:30:54 -!- sftp has joined.
19:34:19 <zzo38> Another game idea is a sort of computer game where the game board you play on is the periodic table of elements.
19:35:33 <Gregor> Is it Groundhog Day already?
19:36:41 <elliott> Gregor: No, but it is Big Spider Day.
19:37:15 <elliott> I love Groundhog Day lore:
19:37:17 <elliott> "Zoological data suggests that groundhogs have a maximum lifespan of 10 years in captivity or 6 years in the wild.[3] Punxsutawney Phil fans say that there is only one Phil (all the other groundhog weathermen are impostors), and that he has made weather prognostications for over 120 years as of 2010. They say that every summer, Phil is fed a sip of the mysterious Groundhog Punch, which magically lengthens his life for seven years. This is done by
19:37:17 <elliott> Inner Circle members.[4] According to the Groundhog Club, Phil, after making the prediction, speaks to the Club President in "Groundhogese", which only the Inner Circle appear to understand, and then his prediction is translated for the entire world."
19:37:58 <cpressey> Mental note: Punxsutawney: avoid.
19:38:19 <elliott> "Of these 114 predictions on record so far, Punxsutawney Phil has predicted an early spring 14 times (12%). As to his accuracy, according to the StormFax Weather Almanac and records kept since 1887, Phil's predictions have been correct just 39% of the time."
19:38:29 <elliott> His inaccuracy only makes him more magical!
19:38:41 <zzo38> A game can have a stretched geometry in some places, so that going from Barium to Hafnium is a shorter distance if you go around than in a straight line.
19:38:45 <cpressey> Who are you to understand the ways of Phil?
19:45:59 <cpressey> Molybdenum is a Double Molecule Score element.
19:49:33 <cpressey> Cuz I like the name "Molybdenum", mostly
19:50:58 <elliott> Evil window managers trying to snarf your krit!
19:51:19 <zzo38> elliott: What does that mean?
19:51:28 <elliott> But then, what does anything mean?
19:51:39 <fizzie> If he's been doing that for "over 120 years", and they lengthen his life by 7 years every summer (so +6 years to the total), wouldn't he now have something like a 720-year lifespan even with no more Groundhog Punch? That's not bad for a groundhog.
19:52:06 <cpressey> blah i totally need an algebraic data type in my python script.
19:52:29 <zzo38> What kind of algebraic data type?
19:52:42 <elliott> fizzie: But why stop giving it to him?!
19:52:47 <cpressey> data Thing = OneKind String | TheOtherKind String
19:52:51 <elliott> fizzie: It's physiologically and psychologically addictive!
19:53:02 <elliott> His predictions would become less accurate!
19:53:06 <fizzie> elliott: Just Say No to Groundhog Punch.
19:53:08 <elliott> cpressey: i tried to code them in python once, then lol'd and gave up
19:53:16 <cpressey> I'm using a pair ("kind", str) but it's just so crude
19:53:28 <cpressey> and what, define a class for this?
19:53:38 <elliott> cpressey: I was going to have it be
19:53:55 <elliott> Thing = ADT(OneKind=[str], TheOtherKind=[str])
19:54:05 <elliott> which would then create the uninstantiatable Thing class
19:54:05 <zzo38> Is anything relating to the "mana" in "Icosahedral RPG" used in mathematics?
19:54:09 <elliott> and two subclasses, OneKind and TheOtherKind
19:54:39 <elliott> Thing = ADT(OneKind={'name': str}, TheOtherKind={'country': str})
19:54:50 <cpressey> elliott: also: these are dict keys
19:55:21 <elliott> cpressey: anything that can be hashed can be a key
19:55:39 <elliott> cpressey: so I just need to not have field assignment using __foo name magic
19:55:43 <elliott> cpressey: and then it can be hash()ed safely
19:57:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:58:47 <cpressey> elliott: that's great you should totally write a pep
19:59:38 <elliott> cpressey: oh, and to instantiate it would be
20:01:01 <elliott> cpressey: wait no need to have str there
20:01:23 <fizzie> Completely off-topic, but since there's some retroism done here every now and then: the recent altparty's main demo compo was won by a prod for (unextended) VIC-20.
20:04:41 <fizzie> Oh, and #2 was called "Binary of Babel" and had code written in 23 languages; sadly, none of them were actual esoteric ones. (But there was FORTRAN and COBOL and Scheme and whatnot.)
20:05:07 <fizzie> Oh, and something with Bash.
20:05:28 <fizzie> I did like the part where they listed what it was made with ("2000 processes" and so on), and then they made it lag and stutter horribly for the line which said "8 garbage collectors". :p
20:06:13 <olsner> 2000 processes in 64k, that's... something
20:06:18 <zzo38> Did it have: Forth? C? Assembly language? METAFONT?
20:07:11 <fizzie> At least some assembly; can't quite recall about the others; very likely not METAFONT.
20:07:51 <olsner> aha, so #2 was not for VIC-20?
20:07:54 <elliott> fizzie: Did it have Enhanced CWEB?
20:08:52 <fizzie> olsner: No, just the winner. And the unenhanced VIC-20 has 4k of memory, anyway.
20:09:42 <olsner> 2 bytes per process leaving 96 for the monitor - how hard can it be :)
20:10:07 <fizzie> I doubt you'd need to run all 2000 at the same time anyway to be able to claim that.
20:10:42 <elliott> cpressey: you'll never believe this, but -- I almost have Python ADTs working.
20:11:24 <olsner> fizzie: you mean like using swap-to-floppy or something?
20:12:33 <fizzie> olsner: I mean "like" running a process, then running it again with different parameters. Not that the VIC-20 "OS" has a very clear meaning for the word "process".
20:12:44 <ais523> elliott: you'll be glad to hear I came up with an improvement for my URL filter
20:12:48 <ais523> it now shows the URL, unlinked
20:12:58 <elliott> ais523: how... does that help at all?
20:13:05 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if I could make it show up in white text
20:13:10 <elliott> ais523: just reduce the visual noise?
20:13:19 <elliott> ais523: you could send it to a URL shortening service
20:13:30 <ais523> that would be doubly counterproductive, really
20:13:31 <elliott> ais523: that way, all URLs will become really short and non-offensive
20:13:49 <ais523> often, people use a link as a substitute for actual discussion
20:14:00 <ais523> e.g. say http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck rather than brainfuck
20:14:10 <ais523> and so seeing the text is useful for context
20:14:20 <elliott> cpressey: LOL PYTHON'S LACK OF SCOPE BITES BE AGAIN
20:14:40 <ais523> oh right, I filter out colors too
20:14:49 <ais523> I'd forgotten I did that
20:15:04 <elliott> cpressey: Imagine a for loop with element variable foo. Now imagine you have a function inside this for loop that, say, prints foo. Now imagine you store this function in a dictionary somewhere, one for each foo.
20:15:25 <elliott> cpressey: When you call the function in the dictionary for the first -- not last -- element of the list, what does it print out?
20:15:27 <ais523> (necessary for talking to mIRC users who think that white text on a colored background is a good idea; Konversation doesn't render background colors, so...)
20:15:47 <elliott> ais523: who the fuck does that?!
20:16:24 <elliott> ais523: btw, you're welcome to guess at that question i asked cpressey, too
20:16:51 <zzo38> The IRC client I use doesn't render any color specified in the message at all, it uses its own colors
20:21:31 <ais523> elliott: not on Freenode, luckily
20:21:38 <ais523> but it's bitten me on other networks
20:21:49 <elliott> cpressey: you haven't answered my riddle yet
20:21:54 <elliott> cpressey: what does the function print out?
20:22:13 <cpressey> elliott: that you store the function in a dictionary affects things AT ALL is what i'm balking at
20:22:27 <elliott> cpressey: it could be a list or anything, that's not really important
20:22:28 <ais523> elliott: last value in the loop plus one?
20:22:32 <elliott> the only important thing is that it gets outside of the scope
20:22:38 <elliott> ais523: it's a foreach, not a for...
20:22:46 <elliott> cpressey: The answer is: It prints out the last element in the list.
20:22:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:22:55 <elliott> cpressey: Why? Because the loop variable foo isn't local to inside of the loop.
20:23:00 <elliott> It's local to *just outside* of it.
20:23:21 <elliott> ...it becomes the new value.
20:23:30 <elliott> That closure which happens to be the parent closure of your function that prints foo.
20:23:34 <elliott> It prints out the last element int he list.
20:23:49 <elliott> To fix it, you need to have a wrapper function which takes foo as a different name and then returns the function you want, and then immediately call that.
20:23:51 <elliott> Can you fucking believe that?
20:23:55 <cpressey> i do not understand this at all
20:24:24 <cpressey> python and functional programming: not gonna happen
20:24:31 <elliott> cpressey: Anyway, I wrote ADTs in Python.
20:24:44 <elliott> You can't subclass an ADT yet, but hey, you can't in Haskell either!
20:26:10 <olsner> cpressey: understanding python means you're as smart as guido
20:26:39 <elliott> cpressey: http://sprunge.us/jSLK. Including example code!
20:28:02 <elliott> cpressey: Isn't it GLORIOUS?
20:28:33 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, did you say zpaste was on github or just git?#
20:28:36 <elliott> There's no github.com/fizzie.
20:34:33 <cpressey> elliott: it is like divine light blasting everything in its path
20:34:48 <elliott> cpressey: Now stick it in whatever you're writing and see if anyone notices.
20:35:01 <olsner> oh, ireland is the largest exporter of bananas in europe
20:37:48 <elliott> "But wait, there's more: You can now do superscript via the ^ character. This one is still a bit experimental; we don't want to overload our servers with lots of really big numbers, so for the first 24 hours, the use of exponents larger than 2 will be restricted to reddit gold subscribers, who I trust will be discreet about using this special ability in front of less fortunate members of the community."
20:37:50 <elliott> this is... definitely a joke.
20:38:11 <fizzie> elliott: http://github.com/fis/zpaste -- it's a bit in the need of cleanup.
20:38:21 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, fancy lah-de-dah three-letter name.
20:38:28 <elliott> Why don't you get that on freenode too, RICHIE? :|
20:38:59 <elliott> fizzie: Pah, you have neglected to include your site's key.
20:39:00 <fizzie> That's my unix user name in many places; not quite why I opted for it in github.
20:43:14 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
20:43:36 -!- augur has joined.
20:45:49 <zzo38> Is there a program that can run the reference implementation of TeX as is, with no changes, in the way emulating the computer it was origiinally written on?
20:46:17 <elliott> pikhq: There is still an existing user of SLS. Discuss.
20:46:32 <zzo38> elliott: What is SLS?
20:46:54 <elliott> zzo38: Softlanding Linux System. One of the very first -- if not the first -- Linux distribution, founded in 1992.
20:47:10 <elliott> zzo38: Slackware was released after it made some changes that Patrick Volkerding didn't like.
20:47:54 <zzo38> If I get a new computer I will make my own Linux distribution, possibly called "Arcane Linux". Because I also don't like some things in other one, so I have to make it differently
20:48:52 <zzo38> Does SLS use old kernel? Is it still distributed?
20:49:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
20:49:14 <ais523> zzo38: this reminds me, we were having an argument in another channel, and you might know the answer: if you freeze a water elemental, does it deanimate, or does it keep moving as an ice elemental, or can it do nothing until it thaws out?
20:49:37 <elliott> pikhq: Ooh; not only does that person use SLS, but he still uses *SCCS*.
20:49:43 -!- zeotrope has joined.
20:49:49 <elliott> He mirrors his SCCS repository on GitHub.
20:49:54 <elliott> You can't make this shit up.
20:50:00 <ais523> elliott: is the distro still maintained? or is he just using really old versions of everything?
20:50:12 <elliott> ais523: SLS hasn't been maintained since... before 1993.
20:50:26 <ais523> I mean, is he maintaining it himself?
20:50:28 <elliott> ais523: He also uses other operating systems, but apparently he tested this piece of software, which is maintained in SCCS, on SLS Linux.
20:50:31 <cpressey> < elliott> He mirrors his SCCS repository on GitHub.
20:50:38 <elliott> ais523: Uhh, I don't know. Maybe. A bit unlikely though.
20:50:42 <elliott> cpressey: It is BEYOND amazing.
20:50:52 <ais523> well, I still use DOS from time to time...
20:51:00 <elliott> ais523: Did I mention that this piece of software is *rather* popular and is used extensively by, among others, reddit?
20:51:34 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-does-not-work-on-opera.png
20:51:58 <elliott> Gregor: But what will Sgeo do with his fiancé browser?!
20:52:04 <cpressey> Are there any emulators that provide hooking their emulated serial port up to a pipe in the overlying OS?
20:52:14 <Gregor> elliott: It works on INTERNET FUCKING EXPLORER
20:52:23 <Gregor> (9 beta in standards-compliance mode)
20:52:34 <elliott> Gregor: lawl did you really set your text rendering settings just for this?
20:52:37 <elliott> Or does Opera use its own?
20:52:45 <Gregor> If they're weird, then Opera uses its own.
20:53:05 <elliott> Gregor: Well, the text is a lot thicker than your other screenshots.
20:53:12 <elliott> Like it was light or not hinted.
20:53:22 <elliott> Gregor: Also, tell me that actually works.
20:53:38 <Gregor> No, it just keeps spawning enemies eternally without actually doing any physics.
20:53:49 <zzo38> cpressey: How it will be arcane is all difference from other one, and also other ideas, too.
21:01:10 <cpressey> zzo38: it should run on this: https://www.str-s.com/wyse-wy50-terminal-0005001-wyse-p-287.html
21:01:19 <pikhq> elliott: Holy fucking shit.
21:01:19 <cpressey> note that this will be difficult given that this is a dumb terminal
21:01:39 <pikhq> ais523: SLS is the first distro. *Slackware* effectively replaced it.
21:02:14 <zzo38> cpressey: What should run on that terminal?
21:03:21 <pikhq> It... Uses Linux 1.0.
21:04:16 <cpressey> zzo38: I could compromise, though. Maybe Arcane Linux could just have WY-50 as the default terminal emulation.
21:04:25 <pikhq> It's still available from Ibiblio.
21:05:00 <zzo38> cpressey: Arcane Linux will probably use xterm/ANSI type terminal emulation by default. And it will likely use the newest kernel but with some changes.
21:06:10 <ais523> pikhq: it's likely rather insecure, somehow I don't think Linux 1.0 still gets security fixes...
21:06:38 <elliott> pikhq: I will now create a bootable Linux 0.1 floppy.
21:07:16 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, BTW. Byuu wrote an "snespurify" program that takes ROMS and converts them into a bsnes-friendly format.
21:08:22 <elliott> linux-0.01.tar.bz2 30-Oct-1993 00:00 62K
21:08:26 <elliott> wow, that isn't even an anachronism, is it?
21:09:06 <elliott> they set the date manually? :P
21:09:15 <pikhq> bzip2 was made in 1996.
21:09:28 <elliott> wow, Wiktionary lists anagrams.
21:09:34 <ais523> pikhq: heh, I just looked up that fact
21:09:36 <elliott> anagrams that are also entries, that is
21:09:48 <elliott> Quick, someone give me a name for some formal dress like a tuxedo, but older.
21:09:54 <ais523> likely, the tar format is more recent than 1993 too
21:09:56 <elliott> (Linux 0.1 distro -- it's old tux)
21:10:15 <elliott> ais523: tar was standardised in 1988
21:10:23 <elliott> ais523: but everyone uses the updated 2001 version now
21:10:27 <elliott> ais523: however, things still work with the original format
21:11:05 <elliott> equivalent situational use to a tuxedo but older
21:11:05 <zzo38> Wikipedia page for [[Tuxedo]] redirects to [[Black tie]]
21:11:15 <ais523> elliott: I couldn't think of anything
21:11:45 <pikhq> Hmmmf. Gentoo doesn't have GCC 4.5 even marked as ~amd64. It's masked.
21:11:53 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:12:05 <pikhq> elliott: Can you give me one valid reason to not go out and install a different distro right this instant?
21:12:17 <elliott> pikhq: Your options are, uh, Xubuntu.
21:12:23 <elliott> pikhq: And... cross-compilation.
21:12:57 <elliott> pikhq: IT'S OK YOU CAN USE http://www.funtoo.org/
21:13:40 <elliott> Funtoo switched from bz2 to xz compression in July 2010[13]
21:13:48 <elliott> HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY RESIST
21:14:13 <cpressey> was going to ask if that was sfw then i realized what the world totally needs is a nsfw linux distro
21:14:37 <elliott> oh man white supremacy + linux forum, this is just ... the best thing ever
21:14:40 <elliott> The jewing of Linux part II
21:14:40 <elliott> Interesting discussion on jew Stallman, trying to hijack Linux. How typical.
21:15:20 <elliott> "Being a Fan of Prussian Blue and having used to some extend Linux for the last 7 years, I intend to make a Live / installable CD of a Linux distro "Prussinux" whith special themes, graphics, an audio, to the tune of this neat WN Band."
21:15:25 <elliott> you cannot make this shit up.
21:15:40 <elliott> ("Aryan Linux or Aryanux is a good project, I' ve also come up with Whitnux whith a regalia dressed KKK wizzard, and Nazinux... ;)")
21:15:46 <elliott> i... totally give up on reading this
21:16:30 <elliott> ais523: oh, I know what to call it
21:16:31 <pikhq> elliott: I'd like a distro that's actually up-to-date, rather than having a lot of unmaintained packages. And that doesn't suck. WHY IS THIS HARD.
21:16:46 <elliott> pikhq: Use Threadbare Linux.
21:16:56 <pikhq> Dammit they're making Debian tempting. Very very tempting.
21:16:56 <cpressey> Daniel Robbins sounds like he's related to Tony Robbins: "The following articles, written by Daniel Robbins, will put you on the fast track to becoming a Linux expert. These articles have been used by thousands to learn Linux in a 100% confusion-free environment and are the most effective way to become a master of key Linux technologies -- in a matter of minutes!"
21:17:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:17:04 <elliott> pikhq: Debian + Xfce works quite well.
21:17:11 <elliott> pikhq: sudo aptitude install xorg xfce4 xfce4-goodies
21:17:17 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and sudo aptitude install slim
21:17:20 <elliott> for the simple login manager
21:17:25 <elliott> pikhq: That gets you a full Xfce desktop.
21:17:34 <elliott> pikhq: Er, you have to install sudo first, obviously.
21:17:43 <pikhq> elliott: To Jigdo!
21:17:44 * cpressey enters a 1000% confusion-free environment
21:17:53 <elliott> pikhq: jigdo is deprecated and unmaintained :P
21:17:59 <pikhq> elliott: Testing. They only do Jigdo images.
21:18:06 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:18:13 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
21:18:16 <elliott> netinst (generally 135-175 MB) and businesscard (generally 20-50 MB) CD images
21:18:16 <elliott> [amd64][armel][hppa][i386][ia64][mips][mipsel][powerpc][sparc]
21:18:21 * cpressey starts disintigrating from the sheer coherence
21:18:25 <elliott> pikhq: That's the daily build of the testing installer.
21:18:44 <pikhq> elliott: Okay then.
21:18:56 <pikhq> elliott: Why do they still have Jigdo, then? It kinda sucks.
21:18:57 <elliott> Jigdo is pretty stillborn; it never got to the point of actually being usable, then it became dormant for years, then it became abandoned.
21:19:06 <elliott> pikhq: Because Debian ... don't really remove stuff.
21:19:24 <elliott> pikhq: They are not information elitists :P
21:19:30 <elliott> pikhq: They are digital communists.
21:19:36 <elliott> cpressey: THREADBARE LINUX DUDE
21:19:38 <elliott> cpressey: it runs on linux 0.1
21:19:58 <cpressey> elliott: and Kitten *won't*? are you *nuts*?
21:19:58 <elliott> cc: unrecognized option '-0'
21:20:07 <elliott> cpressey: I'm only nuts in HUTS! What?
21:20:32 <cpressey> LINUX 0.1 and NETBSD CO-KERNELling together somehows
21:21:02 <elliott> Okay, so I need an a.out compiler.
21:21:13 <elliott> pikhq: Debian has no a.out compilers!
21:21:15 <cpressey> http://www.minix3.org/previous-versions/Intel-2.0.3/wwwman/man1/chmem.1.html presumably
21:21:30 <cpressey> it's like AmigaDOS'es "stack" command
21:21:58 <elliott> cpressey: i am totally going to get this doing graphics
21:22:09 <elliott> how hard can the X protocol be?!
21:22:47 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, and for multilib support I guess I'll just have a Debian chroot. It's at least much easier than a Gentoo chroot.
21:22:52 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, "debootstrap".
21:22:54 <olsner> I think the basics of X are pretty simple... you'll have to learn a hundred misused, overused, disused, deprecated extensions though
21:23:09 <pikhq> Actually, for a while I had a 32-bit Debian chroot on my Gentoo system.
21:23:45 <elliott> pikhq: By the way, make sure to *untick* "Graphical desktop environment" or whatever when it asks what you want to install.
21:23:55 <pikhq> elliott: Of course.
21:24:04 <pikhq> elliott: Why would I want to start with anything beyond the base install?
21:24:06 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and you probably want the graphical (it's exactly the same as the textual one, just easier to read), non-expert (the expert install is *crazy*) install.
21:24:18 <elliott> By crazy I mean absolutely crazy.
21:24:19 <pikhq> I've used Debian before you know.
21:24:25 <elliott> You can set up an encrypted LVM RAID in the installer.
21:24:33 <pikhq> And I've used the expert install.
21:24:34 <elliott> pikhq: Right, well, debian-installer gets changed a lot, so :P
21:24:49 <elliott> Do you know how I know that?
21:24:51 <elliott> Because it will never be changed.
21:25:17 <pikhq> Anyways. I'm figuring I'll create a new LVM volume to install the Debian root on so if I really do something stupid Gentoo's still *there*.
21:25:35 <elliott> pikhq: http://wiki.debian.org/BuildingCrossCompilers
21:25:45 <elliott> http://www.emdebian.org/tools/crosstools.html
21:25:50 <elliott> pikhq: They have a bunch of cross-compilers pre-compiled ^
21:25:57 <elliott> "Once you have that then install whichever version of the tools you want. e.g:
21:25:57 <elliott> apt-get install libc6-armel-cross libc6-dev-armel-cross binutils-arm-linux-gnueabi gcc-4.3-arm-linux-gnueabi g++-4.3-arm-linux-gnueabi"
21:26:16 <elliott> It's not cdrecord in Debian! Well it is, but it's not from the cdrecord release.
21:26:36 <elliott> pikhq: That's the name of the actual program.
21:26:44 <elliott> pikhq: It's exactly the same (fork of last sanely-licensed cdrecord).
21:26:47 <elliott> So just use wodim(1) instead :P
21:27:29 <elliott> And if you want to read a whine about it, well, http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/linux-dist.htm!
21:29:20 <elliott> pikhq: Why is it so hard to get an a.out toolchain?
21:30:02 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/threadbare$ sudo debootstrap --arch=i386 lenny build
21:31:41 <elliott> pikhq: Come to think of it, I may want to compile a circa-1993 toolchain...NO.
21:31:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, try playing websplat on http://wiki.winehq.org/Wine64ForPackagers the scoreboard looks broken
21:32:04 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, when installing Xfce, remember to include xfce4-goodies; Debian loves to split stuff up...
21:33:09 <Gregor> Vorpal: *eh*, it's not /very/ broken :P
21:34:03 <pikhq> I need to get a new CD burner.
21:34:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is *very* broken on http://lipforge.ens-lyon.fr/www/pff/ though
21:34:34 <pikhq> I'd forgotten it needs -force to burn anything.
21:34:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, (if you wonder why that page, I'm just checking on most open tabs of my browser)
21:35:13 <pikhq> And it still fails. Fek.
21:35:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, also you can't stand on all lines of text on the last one I pasted. Try the first one after the top header, you can stand on the links but nowhere else on that line
21:35:38 <elliott> pikhq: You'll need to use unetbootin.
21:35:39 <cpressey> elliott: oh, I used Xfce for a while, after blackbox, on somethingBSD. It was nice
21:35:54 <elliott> xfce is alright it's just so BORING :P
21:36:08 <cpressey> elliott: totally want to write my own. totally never will.
21:36:19 <pikhq> elliott: Eh, I can just use syslinux myself.
21:36:36 -!- Guest11844 has joined.
21:36:56 <elliott> pikhq: when building a cross-compiler, ARCH is a tuple, right?
21:36:59 <elliott> or is it just the architecture name
21:37:48 <elliott> pikhq: what's the tuple for a.out elf on a 386 :P
21:37:54 <elliott> actual 286/386 stuff, none of this i686 shit
21:37:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, any idea why the counters are white on white there?
21:38:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: That page is nasty in general >_>
21:38:22 <pikhq> Oh, handy. Just dd http://d-i.debian.org/daily-images/amd64/daily/hd-media/boot.img.gz to a USB drive after gunzip'ing, and voila.
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21:38:33 <elliott> pikhq: Yeaaaaah but that's a very limited thing, iirc.
21:38:36 <elliott> pikhq: You have to append the iso.
21:38:44 <elliott> pikhq: You have to append the ISO.
21:38:46 <elliott> wait, doesn't linux 0.1 have a hardcoded swedish keymap?
21:38:55 <pikhq> elliott: Copy it on, not append, apparently. Bleh.
21:38:59 <pikhq> elliott: That's annoying.
21:39:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, it looks HTML4-ish to me, with CSS bolted on
21:39:17 <elliott> (zcat boot.img.gz; cat foo.iso) >/dev/blah
21:39:33 <elliott> you have to put the iso in there
21:39:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, it doesn't use !important so I don't see what could fail
21:39:47 * elliott realises he said "a.out elf"
21:39:59 <elliott> pikhq: so do you know what the tuple is for a.out, linux, 286/386? :P
21:40:42 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm the text you can't stand on seems to be outside any <p>!
21:40:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, that is strange
21:40:51 <Vorpal> is that what breaks it?
21:41:39 <Vorpal> <elliott> wait, doesn't linux 0.1 have a hardcoded swedish keymap? <-- not _that_ different :P
21:41:56 <elliott> root@dinky:/# aptitude install fakeroot dpkg-cross && aptitude build-dep binutils gcc-3.4
21:42:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: Probably, but it shouldn't, I haven't figured it out yet.
21:42:22 <pikhq> What ho, I lack install media.
21:42:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, still I can't figure out what would mess up the score board.
21:42:47 -!- Guest11844 has left (?).
21:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> Gregor, what are the rules for what you can and can't stand on?
21:43:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Complicated.
21:47:06 <elliott> Does anyone know the tuple? >_<
21:47:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:47:40 <elliott> Gregor: YOU SEEM LIKE A CROSS-COMPILEY GUY RIGHT?
21:48:16 <elliott> Ironically, Vorpal is probably the only one here who knows it.
21:48:21 <elliott> For some value of ironically.
21:49:46 <Vorpal> how to build a cross compiler? easy
21:49:57 <Vorpal> but since elliott is probably ignoring me...
21:51:06 <elliott> Now it doesn't record entries in the history.
21:52:11 <elliott> cpressey: I should totally build gcc 2 with it, but Debian has the ability to build gcc 3.4 easily this way and I'm lazy as fuck.
21:52:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, so it was.
21:52:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I do have the power of logs though! Do you know what the tuple is for 286/286 (not i686) a.out?
21:52:35 <evincar> cpressey: Yeeeah, way back in like 2001.
21:52:47 <elliott> Vorpal: And is $ARCH that tuple, or is it just the ISA?
21:53:14 <elliott> I am new to Lynex." <-- could you spell it more wrongly?
21:53:37 <Vorpal> elliott, when it comes to $ARCH, that sounds debian specific. Never used their build system to build a cross compiler. But tuple for 286, I seen that once, trying to remember what it was.
21:53:57 <evincar> elliott: The opposite of rednecks. If your neck ain't good an' red, you must be a lyin' no-good-fer-nuthin' city slicker.
21:54:10 <elliott> "Coming from an atheist, Happy easter!" ;; uh oh, thread implosion predicted in three... two... one...
21:54:43 <Vorpal> elliott, does gcc 3.4 actually support 286?
21:55:35 <Gregor> No versin of GCC supported 286 ...
21:55:47 <elliott> Linux built on a 386, so woo
21:56:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I think $ARCH is just passed to like --arch= or whatever in the cross-compiler.
21:56:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well, 386 is easy. i386-pc-linux-gnu
21:56:28 <Vorpal> though, who knows for linux 0.1
21:56:31 <Vorpal> could have been different then
21:56:36 <fizzie> Gregor: No official version, anyway; there are some DJGPP patches for a 8086-targeting gcc-2.7.2.3 cross-compiler.
21:56:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I'm building gcc 3.4 to build linux 0.1.
21:56:49 <fizzie> "No 32-bit anything (longs or pointers). No "far". No float or double at all. Since djlink doesn't support commons yet, no uninitialized non-stack variables."
21:56:51 <Vorpal> but i386-pc-linux-gnu is the "traditional" as in "what was common the last 10 years" or such
21:56:55 <fizzie> Okay, you might say it's a bit limited.
21:57:08 <elliott> Vorpal: After I have linux 0.1, I'll install an old circa-1993 or so gcc/libc combo package and rebuild the system with that.
21:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, did you turn off the ignore? Talking through logs is quite silly
21:57:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:57:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Fine, fine, I'll turn it off.
21:57:59 <elliott> Now my ignore list is only one person big!
21:58:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it has been rather peaceful the last few days though. :P
21:58:20 <Vorpal> elliott, boringly peaceful even
21:58:27 <elliott> Yes. We need more arguments.
21:58:50 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, say something disagreaable.
21:59:09 <elliott> Vorpal: any idea what -mstring-insns did? :P
21:59:10 <Vorpal> argh! spacing is horrible there (does it even work?)
21:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, uh... I seen that quite reasonably.
21:59:31 <Vorpal> sure it isn't still supported?
21:59:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Recently presumably?
21:59:41 <elliott> # If you don't have '-mstring-insns' in your gcc (and nobody but me has :-)
21:59:41 <elliott> # remove them from the CFLAGS defines.
21:59:47 <elliott> -- Linus Torvalds, Makefile, linux 0.1
22:00:00 <elliott> Linux: The 0.01 Release | KernelTrap
22:00:00 <elliott> 26 Jul 2007 ... I'm using a slightly hacked gcc-1.40, to which I have added a -mstring-insns flag, which uses the i386 string instructions for structure ...
22:00:09 <elliott> it used 386 string functions
22:00:24 <elliott> Vorpal: someone's look back at it
22:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I was about to say that it seemed plausible that it was something to do with string instructions however
22:00:55 <elliott> I'll just compile it without
22:01:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I do need a cc/as/etc. with a "-0" flag though.
22:01:15 <Vorpal> elliott, is that a zero?
22:01:22 <elliott> Vorpal: yes. and no i have no idea either
22:01:31 <elliott> # If you don't have '-mstring-insns' in your gcc (and nobody but me has :-)
22:01:31 <elliott> # remove them from the CFLAGS defines.
22:01:33 <elliott> CFLAGS =-Wall -O -fstrength-reduce -fomit-frame-pointer -fcombine-regs
22:01:53 <elliott> "I especially like my hard-disk-driver. Anybody else make interrupts drive a state-machine?"
22:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, -fcombine-regs doesn't sound familiar to me at all
22:02:15 <Vorpal> elliott, better check your cross gcc has it
22:02:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll just cut it out.
22:02:30 <Vorpal> elliott, it could break something
22:02:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I just need something to boot, *then* I can recompile it historically accurately.
22:02:40 <elliott> I doubt gcc 1 would run on this system, after all.
22:02:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't even found any gcc 1 copy
22:03:10 <cpressey> < elliott> "I especially like my hard-disk-driver. Anybody else make interrupts drive a state-machine?"
22:03:13 <elliott> Vorpal: David Parsons has some really old gcc/libc combo distributions.
22:03:19 <elliott> Vorpal: tarballs named jumpN
22:03:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm trying to load that page.
22:03:27 <elliott> cpressey: Linus Torvalds is AWESOME
22:03:36 <Vorpal> that sounds like a awesome way to implement a hard disk driver
22:03:48 <elliott> [[Older versions of libc were apparently shipped tightly coupled with gcc, under the names “jump4?.tar” — if you have one of these tarballs lying around on an old SLS, Slackware, MCC, TAMU, or root/boot set, I’d love to have a copy of it.]]
22:03:52 <elliott> I could steal it from the SLS floppies
22:04:03 <Vorpal> elliott, you have SLS floppies?
22:04:18 <elliott> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/
22:04:34 <Vorpal> elliott, they might use ext, that is what we would today call ext1
22:04:41 <Vorpal> which is definitely no longer supported
22:04:42 <elliott> Vorpal: minix file system.
22:04:47 <elliott> Vorpal: oh wait the floppies?
22:04:50 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, which iirc *is* still supported
22:04:51 <elliott> Vorpal: no, one of them's a boot floppy
22:04:55 <elliott> Vorpal: and the others are just directories
22:05:00 <elliott> which you can write as either i think linux
22:05:34 <Vorpal> elliott, ibiblio is extremely slow from here, still loading. Always like that...
22:05:43 <elliott> well they're not exactly prioritising speed :D
22:05:55 <elliott> Vorpal: http://gcc.gnu.org/releases.html
22:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I heard people in US claim it was fast from there
22:06:12 <elliott> but they appear to not have older versions
22:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the oldest one around indeed
22:06:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Rate how exciting this idea sounds: Digging around SLS floppies
22:06:46 <elliott> Answer: REALLY FUCKING EXCITING
22:06:55 <Vorpal> it might be interesting indeed
22:07:00 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/
22:07:12 <elliott> They have reasonably-named filse in like "lilo.tgz"
22:07:27 <elliott> Psht it's totally too new if it's ELF though.
22:07:35 <elliott> Pretty sure Linux 0.1 was a.out only :P
22:07:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well, ELF ABI *docs* or what
22:07:51 <elliott> HA cool linux 0.1 comes with an init
22:08:00 <elliott> * we need this inline - forking from kernel space will result
22:08:00 <elliott> * in NO COPY ON WRITE (!!!), until an execve is executed. This
22:08:15 <elliott> #define CMOS_READ(addr) ({ \
22:08:15 <elliott> #define BCD_TO_BIN(val) ((val)=((val)&15) + ((val)>>4)*10)
22:08:22 <Vorpal> emacs fit on a floppy it seems. Even then it took almost an entire one though
22:08:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm totally going to get X11 running on this thing.
22:08:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't care if I have to backport smallX.
22:08:48 <elliott> http://www.superant.com/smalllinux/tinyX01.html
22:08:59 <elliott> "My experience has been using Linux with X Windows on a desktop system with 4 meg of ram and a 200 meg harddrive."
22:09:09 * Vorpal forces elliott to backport one of the X versions using HAL
22:09:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't be silly. X.org never used HAL. Next you'll be telling me The Matrix has sequels.
22:10:07 <elliott> at least i think smallX uses libc5
22:10:29 <elliott> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/a3/theory.sls
22:10:37 <Vorpal> clisp.tgz 08-Sep-2003 15:09 367K
22:10:43 <Vorpal> I wonder what version that was
22:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: holy crap, it has a package manager
22:10:55 <elliott> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/a3/theory.sls
22:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, why? It is small enough there isn't much point to have a package manager
22:11:19 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I did not spot libc, I did come a cross some gccish thingy
22:12:10 <fizzie> elliott: http://gcc-uk.internet.bs/old-releases/gcc-1/ if you needed a GCC 1 copy.
22:12:22 <Vorpal> gxx245.tgz 08-Sep-2003 15:09 556K
22:12:28 <elliott> fizzie: I do, thank you kindly.
22:12:35 <fizzie> 1.21 .. 1.42 are there.
22:12:37 <Vorpal> elliott, this one has a rather later gcc version
22:12:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, useless modern bloat.
22:12:51 <fizzie> (I think I located that link when looking for the nethack pragma thing.)
22:12:55 -!- wareya has joined.
22:12:59 <elliott> "You need to compile it with gcc (I use 1.40, don't know if
22:13:00 <elliott> 1.37.1 will handle all __asm__-directives)"
22:13:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, nethack pragma?
22:13:13 <elliott> gcc-1.40.tar.bz2 02-Jun-1991 10:03 1.4M
22:13:34 <elliott> fizzie: Uhh, I'll also need a similarly-aged libc.
22:13:37 <fizzie> GCC sources in 1.4M: obviously part of the Good Old Days.
22:14:02 * elliott looks at http://www.oldlinux.org/
22:14:30 <elliott> http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/
22:14:40 <elliott> http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/libs/libc/!
22:15:10 <Vorpal> * elliott looks at http://www.oldlinux.org/ <-- aaargh the wide chars
22:15:23 <elliott> It looks perfectly normal to me.
22:15:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it renders using those wide "fit into japanese/chinese text" thingies for me
22:16:06 <elliott> Vorpal: your fonts suck :P
22:16:09 <elliott> # Usage: config.gcc [vint] [-srcdir=DIR] machine
22:16:15 <Vorpal> elliott, only to the entry "changelog" though
22:16:20 <Vorpal> after that it is normal
22:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, vertical integer?
22:16:43 <elliott> Vertically integrated compiler manufacturing
22:16:52 <elliott> vax) # for vaxen running bsd
22:16:52 <elliott> ultrix) # for vaxen running ultrix
22:17:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: The header there has <FONT face="Times New Roman, Times">CHANGELOG</FONT> -- I guess that, even after </font>, still affects the rendering.
22:17:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, you see the same issue as I do?
22:17:33 <Vorpal> elliott, vint = "Very Integrated Natural Technology"
22:18:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not exactly: it looks reasonably normal-width, but I don't think it's in my default font.
22:18:02 <elliott> fizzie: It displays in FreeSerif for me I think.
22:18:15 <elliott> Not my default font, but still perfectly reasonable.
22:18:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to have all the versions of this start with 0.01.
22:18:37 <elliott> Threadbare linux system 0.0129
22:18:39 <Vorpal> elliott, not gcc, I doubt that would work
22:18:55 <elliott> Vorpal: The only Linux distro to be built on linux 0.01! Ever!
22:19:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:19:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Featuring: A compiler! Libraries! Bash! An X server!
22:19:57 <cheater_> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/csh-whynot/
22:20:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Comes with COMPLETE source code and makefile to build the floppies.
22:20:33 <elliott> Vorpal: And speaking of floppies, it fits on three! Or four!
22:20:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. Linus Torvalds used bash on linux 0.01.
22:20:53 <elliott> I know this because the release notes say that bash works.
22:21:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course, that's, like, bash 1.
22:21:10 <cheater_> elliott: read that faq, it's funny
22:21:13 <Vorpal> elliott, be aware of that modern syntax is not likely to work
22:21:14 <elliott> Or 2, maybe. More likely 1.
22:21:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Nothing modern will work. At all.
22:21:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:21:48 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but that will make the boot strapping from a modern system painful
22:21:54 <elliott> i386-sysv | i386v) # for Intel 80386's running system V
22:21:57 <Vorpal> elliott, also just forget virtualbox, go for qemu probably
22:22:05 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:22:10 <Vorpal> elliott, is that from config.guess?
22:22:16 <elliott> The only configure script.
22:22:21 <elliott> It just sets up some symlinks for the makefile.
22:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: The oldlinux.org guy got linux 0.11 working in bochs.
22:22:28 <Vorpal> elliott, not autoconf I guess
22:22:30 <elliott> So if qemu doesn't work I'll go bochs.
22:22:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I misspoke when I said 1993 of course.
22:22:45 <elliott> Vorpal: This is from 1991.
22:23:41 <elliott> "Compile the source, making necessary changes into the
22:23:42 <elliott> makefiles and linux/include/linux/config.h and linux/boot/boot.s."
22:24:01 <Vorpal> but in the csh, you can't redirect stdout out stderr, so you end up doing something silly like this:
22:24:01 <Vorpal> sh -c 'echo "$0: cannot find $file" 1>&2'
22:24:19 <elliott> Vorpal: is that from the old csh sucks thing?
22:24:29 <elliott> also, it should clearly be
22:24:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it is from http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/csh-whynot/ which cpressey linked above
22:24:37 <elliott> echo "$0: cannot find $file" | sh -s 'cat 1>&2'
22:24:46 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:24:53 <elliott> err 1> is of course useless
22:24:55 <elliott> echo "$0: cannot find $file" | sh -s 'cat>&2'
22:24:59 <elliott> echo "$0: cannot find $file" | sh -c 'cat>&2'
22:25:40 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm going to have to compile gcc 1.40 for *minix*
22:25:50 <elliott> interesting to note at this point is that i DON'T HAVE MINIX
22:26:02 <elliott> what E486: Pattern not found: minix
22:26:23 <elliott> Vorpal: i should just compile the kernel with gcc 3.4, shouldn't i
22:26:57 <Vorpal> elliott, if that works
22:27:00 <Vorpal> elliott, which it might not
22:27:08 <elliott> Vorpal: *shrug*, I'm fine making small patches.
22:27:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea how much would would be required. At all
22:27:34 <elliott> Vorpal: It's actually linux 0.01tb!
22:28:09 <cpressey> I need a better Jabber client than Empathy. People IM me and it doesn't notify me in any perceptible way.
22:28:13 <fizzie> elliott: What you should do is to go find Linus, get a big one of those butterfly net things, catch him in it, and then make him make it work; after all, he's done it before.
22:28:48 <elliott> cpressey: Also, Empathy does notify you if you have a libnotify daemon thing running.
22:29:00 <fizzie> I went back to bitlbee for Jabber again, but, well, you know, bitlbee.
22:29:04 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, but he built it in 1991 on Minix :P
22:29:17 <elliott> fizzie: "but, well, you know, bitlbee" summarises my feelings about bitlbee exactly.
22:29:27 <cpressey> elliott: pikhq will hate you for putting someone back in the claws of The Pidge.
22:29:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Tuberculosis! Actually Threadbare.
22:29:33 <elliott> cpressey: pikhq uses Pidgin.
22:29:51 <cpressey> elliott: wait, was it not him who was virulently anti-Pidgin?
22:29:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Diffs are offered from stock linux 0.01!
22:30:04 <elliott> cpressey: He said it sucked the last time he tried it and I said it was a little better and he said yeah actually it is.
22:30:28 <elliott> cpressey: hey typing oaky for okay is MINE
22:30:39 <elliott> cpressey: bitlbee! It's a local IRC server.
22:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to emulate AT. not ATA.
22:30:44 <cpressey> "unf" was completely accidental btw
22:30:47 <elliott> It pretends all your contacts are little IRC users.
22:31:09 <Vorpal> elliott, check release notes
22:31:13 <elliott> cpressey: also you'll want to install pidgin-libnotify.
22:31:28 <cpressey> unf -> right hand outpacing left hand a lot
22:31:47 <elliott> cpressey: How to make Pidgin not awful: Set contact list to compact mode. Go into sound configuration, disable the annoying buddy logs on/off sounds. Go to plugins, configure libnotify plugin, probably turn off buddy signs on/off notifications unless you want them.
22:32:04 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I'm sure for 0.01
22:32:07 <elliott> cpressey: Go into Pidgin preferences, set minimum message box height to zero. Start conversation. Go into the menus, select Disable Formatting Toolbar.
22:32:13 <elliott> Vorpal: qemu can't do that right?
22:32:21 <Vorpal> - AT-type harddisk controller (IDE is fine)
22:32:38 <elliott> Vorpal: oh man I'm going to patch the libc to pretend it's eternal whatever-day-Linux-was-released
22:32:47 <elliott> Vorpal: forget eternal september with its day numbers in the thousands
22:32:51 <elliott> we're gonna have SO MANY FUCKING HOURS in this day
22:32:59 <elliott> bootup message: "Welcome to 1991!"
22:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, you are going to overflow those unsigned chars
22:33:24 <elliott> Better if they were signed./
22:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, because I doubt they wasted 32 bits on hours back then
22:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott, you could change the ABI quite easily
22:33:45 <elliott> of course they were wasteful.
22:33:51 <Vorpal> elliott, not so much back then
22:33:55 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, you could change the ABI quite easily
22:34:05 <elliott> it would be no fuss doing so
22:34:10 <elliott> since i'd have to recompile everything anyway
22:34:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and there isn't a lot to recompile!
22:34:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Supported upgrade method:
22:34:40 <Vorpal> elliott, please keep the original charmap by default
22:34:47 <elliott> ...download new source tgz...
22:34:51 <Vorpal> elliott, make it a compile time option to accept other ones or such
22:34:58 <Vorpal> elliott, the original is *traditional*
22:35:22 <elliott> This produces all the binaries, right?
22:35:38 <Vorpal> elliott, this looks BSDish suddenly
22:35:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Did I mention that would replace your currently-executing kernel file too?
22:36:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is 0.01 actually self hosting?
22:36:11 <elliott> Vorpal: It runs gcc, I think.
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22:36:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Did I mention that src.tgz contains literally every program in the system?
22:36:53 <elliott> From kernel to gcc to libc to smallX to whatever else. :P
22:36:59 <elliott> RECOMPILE EVERYTHING WOO IT'S JUST LIKE GENTOO
22:37:06 <elliott> Actually, the make steps would probably be
22:37:07 <Gregor> SMW "seconds" are 2/3rds of a second.
22:37:40 <elliott> Because you want to compile everything with the latest gcc and libc, of course!
22:37:57 <elliott> Gregor: Every three seconds, decrement the time by two. Easy!
22:38:11 <elliott> Gregor: Clearly they only had cycles enough to decrement something twice every three seconds.
22:38:17 <Gregor> elliott: Alternatively, every 20 frames, decrement the time by one ...
22:38:54 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to have to set up a Minix box, aren't I?
22:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, fun, read "6. The file system" in the release notes
22:39:01 <Vorpal> elliott, that is some fragile stuff
22:39:20 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/Linux-0.01/docs/
22:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you need 1.5.10 of minix:
22:39:24 <elliott> INSTALLATION there is interesting.
22:39:27 <Vorpal> NOTE! Minix-1.6.16 seems to have a new FS, with minor
22:39:27 <Vorpal> modifications to the 1.5.10 I've been using. Linux
22:39:27 <Vorpal> won't understand the new system.
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22:40:03 <elliott> [[The main difference is in the fact that minix has a single-threaded
22:40:03 <elliott> file-system and linux hasn't. Implementing a single-threaded FS is much
22:40:03 <elliott> easier as you don't need to worry about other processes allocating
22:40:03 <elliott> buffer blocks etc while you do something else. It also means that you
22:40:03 <elliott> lose some of the multiprocessing so important to unix.]]
22:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, a bit further down: "Sadly it has the not so nice property that race-conditions can happen almost everywhere. "
22:40:08 <elliott> Vorpal: "We're better than Minix!"
22:40:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I guess multitasking is not so recommended.
22:40:49 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:40:54 <elliott> Intel-1.5Unpackedbzipped tar filegzipped tar file
22:41:16 <elliott> pikhq: You have Debian testing installed?
22:41:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, that was quite fitting to the convo elliott had
22:41:35 <elliott> Vorpal: that is the worst fs design ever :D
22:41:47 <elliott> although i have a lot of dread at this.
22:42:04 <elliott> should find binaries for 'update' and 'bash' at the same place you found
22:42:04 <elliott> this, which will have to be put into the '/bin' directory on the
22:42:08 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't want to self host this thingy
22:42:14 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't see why not.
22:42:26 <Vorpal> elliott, the fs is likely to break during compilation
22:42:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Not if I do it single-taskedly...
22:42:32 <Vorpal> elliott, "update"? what it is supposed to do
22:43:02 <pikhq> And now audio isn't working.
22:43:09 <elliott> pikhq: You haven't installed ALSA.
22:43:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a daemon of some sort
22:43:17 <elliott> pikhq: (I wouldn't trust Debian's OSSv4.)
22:43:24 <elliott> Vorpal: But anyway, you could easily just compile it by shutting down X and compiling.
22:43:25 <Vorpal> "Logging out from the "login-shell" will automatically do a sync, and will leave you hanging without any processes (except update, which isn't much fun), so do the "three-finger-salute" to restart dos/minix/linux or whatever."
22:43:27 <elliott> I doubt it did multiple consoles.
22:43:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I guess it's the included init/
22:43:54 <Vorpal> elliott, strange name for it
22:44:07 <Vorpal> elliott, this version has no file system security I think
22:44:08 <elliott> Anyway, this is a distraction! Let us all download Minix 1.5.
22:44:11 <elliott> http://www.minix3.org/previous-versions/bzipped/Intel-1.5.tar.bz2
22:44:45 <elliott> Sweet! It's floppy images.
22:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember reading somewhere that linus implemented file system permissions the day after he did minicom /dev/hda (or the equiv back then) by mistake
22:45:00 <Vorpal> instead of minicom /dev/ttyS0
22:45:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Wow... what would that have done?
22:45:10 <cpressey> tabbed everything is stupidest idea
22:45:15 <pikhq> Ah, wait, there it is. ALSA settings.
22:45:20 <elliott> cpressey: Huh hm what are you using
22:45:26 <elliott> pikhq: You probably *don't have ALSA installed*.
22:45:26 <Vorpal> elliott, written modem AT commands to the boot sector I think :P
22:45:44 <pikhq> elliott: I hadn't set the mixer right.
22:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, port OSSv4 to linux 0.01
22:45:52 <pikhq> elliott: ALSA is a dependency of Quod Libet. :P
22:45:59 <elliott> pikhq: Doesn't it use gstreamer?
22:46:07 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and MIDORI MIDORI MIDORI
22:46:08 <cpressey> elliott: It's not the WM so much as the TABS. and i can't do much about stupid app ui design can i.
22:46:22 <elliott> cpressey: gnome wm has no tabs so you mean like
22:46:44 <pikhq> elliott: gstreamer has a recommended dependency on ALSA. And Debian now actually assumes you want the recommendations unless you tell it not to.
22:46:54 <elliott> pikhq: You can override that.
22:47:03 <elliott> pikhq: But, really, I wouldn't trust Debian's OSSv4. :P
22:47:17 <pikhq> elliott: I haven't installed Debian's OSSv4, so. :P
22:47:27 <elliott> Vorpal: this actually fucking shows a boot menu.
22:47:42 <elliott> standard, U.S. extended or Dutch for PS/2
22:47:48 <elliott> kernels: AT, XT, PS/2, BIOS
22:47:54 * elliott , adventurously, tries PS/2
22:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to keep the .fi keymap as hardcoded default. It is historic after all.
22:48:57 <Vorpal> elliott, sad linux went US keymap by default
22:50:06 <elliott> Vorpal: it's swedish isn't it
22:50:20 <elliott> sweden-speaking minority of finland
22:50:21 <Vorpal> elliott, today they are. I don't know if they were back then
22:50:31 <elliott> Vorpal: i meant the hardcoded keymap
22:50:35 <elliott> they may be the same, yeah
22:50:45 <elliott> uh how do you switch floppy with qemu's console?
22:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, today fi and se keymaps are the same
22:51:07 <pikhq> elliott: But, anyways, this is nice. It just works.
22:51:13 <Vorpal> elliott, who knows if they were the same in 1991
22:51:26 <elliott> pikhq: I'm thinking about installing that setup myself now.
22:51:31 <elliott> Xfce really is a nice little thing.
22:51:43 <elliott> I was on Arch/Xfce before but that sucked ass.
22:51:49 <elliott> But that's just because Arch sucks ass :P
22:52:06 <elliott> "The fda device has not been found"
22:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, sourcemage/xfce
22:52:24 <elliott> and even though this guide says fda so presumably it was fda at one point
22:52:39 <Vorpal> elliott, which one was that now again
22:52:49 <elliott> Vorpal: [[Frugalware Linux is a general-purpose Linux distribution designed for intermediate users who are familiar with command-line operations. It is based on Slackware, but uses the Pacman package management system.[1]]]
22:52:55 <elliott> it is a bit rubbish, I gather
22:53:06 -!- zeotrope has left (?).
22:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Progeny Componentized Linux/Xfce
22:53:36 <elliott> i'm just reeling off the list here
22:53:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard that one
22:53:42 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progeny_Linux_Systems
22:53:50 <elliott> Vorpal: made by the company run by Ian Murdock, Debian founder!
22:53:53 <Vorpal> elliott, Mandriva/CDE!
22:54:21 <elliott> omg invalid root file sysetm
22:54:21 <Vorpal> you did that one intentionally :P
22:54:46 <elliott> i -- think i hate cpressey for giving me that image.
22:55:18 <elliott> Vorpal: okay i'm going to use the bios kernel
22:55:21 <elliott> it'll almost certainly work! :P
22:55:24 <Vorpal> I thought hotjava was a browser or something?
22:55:50 <elliott> the first browser to be JAVA-ENABLED
22:55:59 <elliott> <elliott> it'll almost certainly work! :P
22:56:05 <elliott> ok so your message was in-between
22:56:38 <elliott> well this is ... not reassuring
22:56:43 <elliott> anyone else wanna try and get minix to boot?
22:57:21 <Vorpal> elliott, try getting 0.1 to work, then bootstrap it from there?
22:57:38 <elliott> way more fun to build it from minix
22:57:41 <Vorpal> elliott, or try the dog slow emulator
22:57:46 <Vorpal> that probably will work
22:57:50 <elliott> bochs' slowness doesn't bother me
22:57:52 <elliott> it's the configuration file
22:58:09 <Vorpal> I forgot what it was like
22:58:10 <elliott> - Finnish keyboard (oh, you can use a US keyboard, but not
22:58:23 <elliott> okay okay so it means the keys map wrongly
22:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, *couldn't back then
22:58:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and well it wouldn't help
22:58:43 <elliott> it could have simply been that the scancodes are different
22:59:01 <elliott> The Finnish keyboard is hard-wired, and as I don't have a US one I
22:59:01 <elliott> cannot change it without major problems. See kernel/keyboard.s for
22:59:01 <elliott> details. If anybody is willing to make an even partial port, I'd be
22:59:01 <elliott> grateful. Shouldn't be too hard, as it's tabledriven (it's assembler
22:59:05 <elliott> making that patch will be FUN
22:59:21 <Vorpal> elliott, keep it as it is ;P
22:59:35 <Vorpal> elliott, scan codes are the same on US and fi I guess. But someone used to US layout wouldn't expect / on shift-7 iirc
22:59:49 <elliott> Vorpal: linux 0.01tb can be patched, it's MODERN!
23:00:06 <Vorpal> elliott, must support Swedish layout still
23:00:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well they are the same afaik
23:00:35 <elliott> Vorpal: probably what it'll be is a diff file
23:00:39 <elliott> and "make us" will apply it
23:00:42 <elliott> note: make us will be the default :P
23:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, it shouldn't be. That is non-traditional :P
23:01:08 <elliott> Vorpal: not for linux 0.01tb!
23:01:20 <Vorpal> elliott, if you get minix working
23:01:23 <elliott> Vorpal: you could easily say
23:01:47 <elliott> of course, the linux target it
23:02:37 <elliott> Vorpal: you know the great thing? I don't need version numbers for the software
23:02:39 <elliott> because i will never upgrade
23:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, will this be your main system?
23:03:01 <Vorpal> elliott, also I'm sure you will need to patch it a few times
23:03:11 <elliott> Vorpal: patched versions just become part of the next tb release, duh
23:03:34 <Vorpal> elliott, tb needs version numbers
23:03:38 <elliott> actually come to think of it making everyone download src.tgz each time would be cruel, not everybody can afford that kind of bandwidth (and time!)
23:03:50 <elliott> which you can apply to your /usr/src tree
23:05:29 <Vorpal> elliott, that one should be diff-0.0123.gz or such
23:05:34 <elliott> Vorpal: get it from ftp, ac.unix.flr.ac.uk in pub/extra/user/e/ellioh/tbsys/srcdiff.gz!
23:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, the chance of typos is too easy otherwise
23:05:45 <elliott> (system limits usernames to six chars!)
23:05:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, dude, that's not an 8.3 filename.
23:06:09 <Vorpal> elliott, linux was 8.3 limited?
23:06:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Well if you're going to put it onto a floppy...
23:06:32 <elliott> Generally things should be 8.3 because then you can put things onto a FAT floppy from MSDOS.
23:06:46 <elliott> Otherwise you'd need linux to install and that'd be a pain.
23:06:57 <elliott> It's not exactly a very well-known OS.
23:07:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, for install you wouldn't download diff
23:07:29 <elliott> Vorpal: But say you have an internet connection at uni but not at home.
23:07:37 <elliott> (This is, of course, by far the most probable situation in 1991.)
23:07:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:07:48 <Vorpal> elliott, you just need to support whatever network card bochs emulates
23:07:52 <elliott> Vorpal: You could download the file onto your school's mainframe
23:07:56 <Vorpal> and implement a TCP stack
23:07:58 <elliott> and copy it to a DOS floppy
23:08:06 <elliott> Then go home and use that to update.
23:08:22 <elliott> Vorpal: How can you afford internet at home?!
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23:10:21 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you download it from a BBS instead
23:10:35 <elliott> Vorpal: All those megabytes???
23:10:49 <Vorpal> elliott, megabytes? *you* are insane :P
23:10:55 <elliott> Vorpal: It goes on three floppies!
23:11:16 <Vorpal> elliott, single sided ones right?
23:11:26 <elliott> Vorpal: 5 inch will work, as long as it's 1.44
23:11:41 <Vorpal> elliott, what?! no 8"?
23:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, also 5 never went up to 1.44
23:12:30 <elliott> Thus, all of the files in the a2 directory should be copied to a
23:12:30 <elliott> single floppy disk labeled a2; all of the files in the a4 directory
23:12:30 <elliott> should be copied to a single floppy disk labeled a4; and so on. It
23:12:30 <elliott> doesn't matter whether the floppies are 3 or 5 inch floppies; however,
23:12:30 <elliott> they do need to be the high density 1.2 meg or 1.44 meg size.
23:12:32 <Vorpal> 5¼-inch HD = 1.2 MB is max according to wikipedia
23:13:52 <cpressey> i can barely conceive of 1.2M on a 5-1/4" disk
23:14:34 <elliott> pikhq: What I wish Debian has is the patched freetype. Sigh.
23:14:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, introduced in 1982
23:15:09 <Vorpal> "5¼-inch Perpendicular" 10 MB
23:15:17 <pikhq> elliott: Shouldn't be long, though.
23:15:26 <Vorpal> I wonder if that is vandalism
23:15:28 <elliott> pikhq: says pikhq, about motherfucking *DEBIAN*
23:16:27 <Vorpal> "Looking similar to a standard 3 1/2-inch microfloppy, Maxell's new perpendicular recording disk stands magnetic particles on end to pack up to 100K of data per inch, about ten times the amount of a normal microfloppy."
23:17:00 <Vorpal> elliott, follow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#cite_note-1986_maxell_drives-15
23:17:13 <Vorpal> "But don't expect to see the perpendicular disk on store shelves for awhile. Perpendicular recording has been on the drawing boards for several years, but still hasn't proven to be as cost effective or as easily produced as traditional magnetic media, says Maxell's David Berry."
23:17:36 <Vorpal> "Stripped-away views of two new 31/2-inch Winchester-style 30- and 20-megabyte hard-disk drives from Peripheral Technology, Inc. Unlike floppies, these hard disks are nonremovable media."
23:18:02 <Vorpal> "On another front, computer users are finding that Winchester-style hard disk drives are increasing in performance as they drop in price. Lower prices and ease of use—especially important with today's increasingly integrated, memory-hungry applications—are making hard disks attractive even to casual computer users"
23:18:14 <Vorpal> it goes on to explain what a hard disk is
23:18:31 <elliott> Vorpal: hey, minix gave me an error about reading winchester!
23:18:35 <elliott> when i tried to boot it :P
23:18:50 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you doing now btw?
23:18:52 <elliott> i'm just wondering which combination i want
23:19:02 <Vorpal> elliott, minix in bochs
23:19:02 <elliott> Vorpal: taking a short break, pondering about whether to install debian or not :P
23:19:15 <elliott> Vorpal: you write the bochs configuration and i'll do it but no way am i touching that shit
23:19:25 <elliott> also, because pikhq installed debian and it appears to be the path of least resistance atm
23:19:38 <elliott> "Maxell's new ultra-micro 2½-inch floppy disk holds 500K of unformatted data and is planned for use in laptop computers and other selected markets."
23:19:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm going to sleep shortly
23:19:56 <elliott> Vorpal: before you do, excellent thing would be to write bochs config!
23:20:05 <elliott> "Looking similar to a standard 31/2-inch microfloppy"
23:20:11 <elliott> Yikes, a 15 1/2 inch microfloppy!
23:20:21 <Vorpal> elliott, Wednesday will be fun
23:20:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, with it being so... Wednesdayy.
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23:20:53 <elliott> 300th day of the year you know!
23:21:10 <elliott> no idea why you think it's interesting :P
23:21:41 <Vorpal> elliott, mandatory hands-on course about driving in slippery conditions
23:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have that in UK?
23:22:45 <fizzie> I went to one, was stopped in a queue waiting for my turn, and another participant rear-ended my father's car that I was using. :p
23:22:59 <fizzie> (With very low speed, though.)
23:22:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, they provide the cars here
23:23:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't think of why they do that
23:23:52 <Vorpal> "The basic principle of CD ROMs is similar to the audio CD. A low-power laser beam reads microscopic pits that have been burned into the disc itself. These pits—representing a series of ones and zeros—contain the data that in a magnetic medium would be formed by the arrangement of magnetic particles. The 4.7-inch CD-ROM discs contain a whopping 550 megabytes of data per disc. The first applications
23:23:52 <Vorpal> are likely to be encyclopedias, such as the nine-million-word Academic American Encyclopedia, a 21-volume reference work that fits on just a quarter of one CD-ROM disc."
23:24:28 <fizzie> Sounds strange. Though we did have some trouble in getting the anti-lock brakes and other such things disengaged from the very heterogenous set of cars, for that part where they wanted to show us how things go without such trickery.
23:25:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, I couldn't use my parents car then, it has anti-locking on unconditionally
23:26:17 <fizzie> So did many of those if you just consider the regular "user interface"; some still could be disabled by disconnecting the right fuses from under the hood.
23:26:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, they did that? Won't that void warranty?
23:27:03 <fizzie> Not usually, no. Maybe with modern enough cars it would.
23:27:35 <fizzie> Though if it's listed in the owner's guide, I guess it should be okay.
23:28:19 <fizzie> The car I used had originally come from Germany, so all the books and such were only in German. They were a bit... undecipherable.
23:28:55 <fizzie> I speak the language a little (very little), but had no clue about the terminology used.
23:33:17 <cpressey> "Frankly, GNOME needs to improve its documentation. Just bringing forward the fact that they are volunteers, doesn’t suffice."
23:37:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, I'm using gnome and I never looked in a manual for it
23:38:27 <Vorpal> I mean, there is no need. it is intuitive and "user friendly", almost too much so
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23:40:28 <pikhq> elliott: Is there a Grey Mist SLiM theme?
23:41:20 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:46:36 <Ilari> Hah: "Seeing that rapidssl is still very much alive, I think we can safely say PR is not a valid detergend against running an uhm, less then optimally secure CA.".
23:48:05 <Ilari> I think it should be "deterrent".
23:48:17 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:48:40 <Ilari> Wonder what that "uhm, less than optimally secure" means...
23:48:59 <Ilari> Most probably, something double-plus ungood... :-)
23:49:11 -!- wareya has joined.
23:50:20 <Vorpal> Ilari, they were the CA used for the (in)famous md5 "exploit"
23:50:36 <Vorpal> Ilari, or do you mean something more recent?
23:50:59 <elliott> rapidssl are still in business after that? lol
23:51:08 <Ilari> That X.509 trust stuff is a giant mess... Check the number of CAs trusted by browsers. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...
23:51:25 <elliott> it's only useful for encryption
23:51:30 <elliott> and the default browser setup means you can't use it for that
23:51:32 <Vorpal> elliott, Ilari http://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/
23:51:38 <elliott> because OMG SELF-SIGNED CERTIFICATE FUUCK
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23:53:00 <Vorpal> elliott, x.509 can be useful for auth. if you only trust a single root CA. not for general use. But for something like a local root ca for x.509 certs for ipsec VPN tunnels to your company
23:53:07 <Ilari> There are N+1 sub-CAs. 1) Each is _omnipotent_ with regards to X.509 auth system. 2) _Nobody_ knows how much of those there are. 3) Some of known ones do not seem to be trustworthy.
23:53:14 <elliott> Vorpal: but i mean -- on the internet.
23:53:36 <elliott> Vorpal: what browsers *should* do is drop all certificate bullshit and just use https for encryption
23:53:41 <elliott> of course what they should do is get a proper auth system
23:53:44 <elliott> but that's waay more complicated
23:53:50 <elliott> because it involves something more than paying to say you're someone!
23:54:16 <elliott> of course browsers are stupid and insist that just relying on 458734895793485 shitty root CAs and firing HUGE RED SIRENS for any website which dares to use anything else is a great idea
23:54:27 <elliott> do you trust verisign? i sure as hell don't
23:54:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I would probably trust cacert more than verisign. At least cacert checks that you are able to prod the domain at will iirc
23:54:40 <Ilari> Well, there is working group being formed to define how to use DNSSEC for TLS authentication.
23:54:49 <elliott> Vorpal: PSHT CACERT IS LIKE, COMMUNIST
23:55:32 <Ilari> Verisign is far from the worst stuff in (sub-)CA pool.
23:55:37 <elliott> Vorpal: "In light of the number of people having issues with making up a password we have the following suggestions:
23:55:37 <elliott> To get a password that will work, we suggest the following example: Fr3d Sm|7h
23:55:41 <elliott> Vorpal: that initial wording is terrible
23:55:43 <elliott> from the cacert registration form
23:55:52 <elliott> Vorpal: it makes me think "wait, you suggest I use that as my actual password?!"
23:56:04 <elliott> (and someone less sceptical than me might just...)
23:56:38 <Vorpal> elliott, someone that stupid shouldn't deal with x.509
23:56:57 <elliott> Vorpal: hell, it confused me for a minute
23:57:03 <elliott> even the text after doesn't clarify it
23:57:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is it the same when refreshing?
23:57:13 <elliott> in no way does the above thing say "Use this example to *make up your own password*"
23:57:25 <elliott> i mean obviously anyone would double-take
23:57:27 <Vorpal> elliott, mail them and suggest a change
23:57:55 <pikhq> Darn it I managed to run into a problem.
23:57:56 <Ilari> And there's also no accountability. One can pretty freely do bad-CA attacks and not get caught...
23:58:04 <elliott> pikhq: I might be able to help.
23:58:31 <pikhq> elliott: fglrx-modules-dkms won't build.
23:58:43 <Vorpal> mozilla.org uses an invalid security certificate.
23:58:43 <Vorpal> The certificate is only valid for *.mozilla.org
23:58:46 <elliott> pikhq: Why are you building it? Isn't there a binary package?
23:58:55 <elliott> Vorpal: doesn't happen for me; where do you get that?
23:59:04 <Vorpal> elliott, https://mozilla.org
23:59:10 <elliott> Vorpal: And Chrome too. Nice.
23:59:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is because the wildcard
23:59:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Then it redirects to http:// X-D
23:59:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you need a separate cert for *.foo.org and foo.org
23:59:33 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, dkms is how third-party modules work on Debian. It automatically builds the module package.
23:59:36 <elliott> Vorpal: fuck that, also :P
23:59:40 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, right, yes, that.
23:59:50 <elliott> pikhq: You can flood it in /msg if you want.
23:59:53 <elliott> I did use to use fglrx! :P
23:59:56 <pikhq> /var/lib/dkms/fglrx/10-7/build/kcl_ioctl.c:196: error: implicit declaration of function ‘compat_alloc_user_space’