00:00:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about module-assistant?
00:00:08 <elliott> pikhq: Did you know that fglrx sucks ass?
00:00:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, I seen that used instead of dkms
00:00:20 <elliott> pikhq: I don't suppose radeon works with your card? :P
00:00:23 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, yes. Hand me money to get a better graphics card.
00:00:33 <elliott> pikhq: I don't suppose radeon works with your card? :P >_>
00:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, the problem with debian is that for anything related to building packages there are 5 different standard systems. At least
00:01:41 <pikhq> Ah, found the bug.
00:02:06 <elliott> Vorpal: It's been unified a lot semi-recently.
00:02:18 <Ilari> TLS would be way more secure if people acutally used its capabilities... :-)
00:02:45 <Vorpal> elliott, just look at the various system to apply patches. Or the various ways to build kernel modules
00:03:09 <elliott> Vorpal: They've got surprisingly few for being continuously maintained since 1993.
00:03:31 <Vorpal> elliott, still enough to be confusing to the casual package compiler
00:03:35 <pikhq> Fuck it. Let's see about getting Radeon working.
00:03:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, what is that about "Extended Validation" you sometimes see
00:04:15 <elliott> pikhq: Didn't you find the bug? :P
00:04:33 <Ilari> At least presently extended validation is more secure...
00:04:33 <elliott> pikhq: You probably just need a more recent fglrx.
00:04:39 <elliott> pikhq: In my experience, packages lag behind ... a lot.
00:04:41 <elliott> pikhq: What card do you have?
00:05:00 <pikhq> elliott: I'd rather not have to futz with installing a single package from Sid.
00:05:07 <elliott> pikhq: The official AMD package.
00:05:15 <pikhq> elliott: It's a Radeon HD 3200.
00:05:17 <Vorpal> Ilari, how does it help?
00:05:24 <Ilari> For fun, someone posted to one list sightly edited (normal) CPS (from early 90s) and sightly edited modern EV CPS and then asked to guess which was which...
00:05:27 <elliott> pikhq: http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx?type=2.4.1&product=2.4.1.3.42&lang=English
00:05:50 <pikhq> Which is an R600...
00:05:55 <Ilari> Vorpal: Less CAs to issue bad certificates. :-)
00:06:00 <elliott> pikhq: I did select 64-bit, interestingly it says x86 but whatever.
00:06:07 <elliott> pikhq: But, uh, it doesn't look like a Debian package.
00:06:10 <elliott> pikhq: Yeaaah I'd try radeon.
00:06:10 <Ilari> Vorpal: And supposedly better verification...
00:06:14 <Vorpal> Ilari, so the browser limits who it trust with EV?
00:06:53 <pikhq> elliott: I have no idea how to switch which driver X11 uses in this new, Xorg.conf-less world.
00:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: You, uh, haha, don't really.
00:07:08 <elliott> pikhq: Just install radeon and not fglrx.
00:07:14 <elliott> pikhq: It should work automagicaly.
00:07:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:07:20 <Ilari> The entiere chain has to be marked valid for EV for EV validation to succeed.
00:07:40 <Ilari> And not all root certs are (to say nothing about sub-certs).
00:08:10 <pikhq> elliott: How do you tell which driver *is* being used?
00:08:55 <elliott> pikhq: It's usually pretty prominent.
00:09:04 <elliott> pikhq: Just grep whichever drivers you think it might be :P
00:09:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, glxinfo | grep vendor
00:10:34 <pikhq> Back in a bit, then.
00:11:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:12:48 <Ilari> But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs).
00:13:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:14:13 <elliott> the headquarters of all piks
00:14:52 <pikhq> Seems that you need to install "evil" firmware for it to actually accelerate stuff.
00:15:18 <pikhq> ... What the hell, it's not accelerating GL.
00:15:27 <pikhq> It claims to be but there's no way it actually is.
00:16:18 <elliott> pikhq: What, glxgears going slowly?
00:16:21 <elliott> Protip: Don't use glxgears.
00:16:33 <elliott> pikhq: Try something more real.
00:16:42 <pikhq> I was using mplayer -vo gl
00:16:52 <pikhq> Aaand now I see the logs.
00:17:05 <pikhq> [dri] This chipset requires a kernel module version of 1.17.0,
00:17:05 <pikhq> [dri] but the kernel reports a version of 2.0.0.[dri] If using legacy modesetting, upgrade your kernel.
00:17:08 <pikhq> [dri] If using kernel modesetting, make sure your module is
00:17:10 <pikhq> [dri] loaded prior to starting X, and that this driver was built
00:17:13 <pikhq> [dri] with support for KMS.
00:17:15 <pikhq> [dri] Disabling DRI.
00:17:42 <elliott> pikhq: Just download radeon from AMD.
00:17:47 <elliott> pikhq: Just download fglrx from AMD.
00:17:51 <elliott> Surely it can't be that bad.
00:18:07 <elliott> pikhq: Even if it does just have an installer, you can use checkinstall. :P
00:18:35 <elliott> pikhq: And, uh, yeah, Debian is great when you're not trying proprietary stuff... and the open-source graphics drivers suck immensely.
00:18:42 <elliott> pikhq: LOL@everyone who uses anything that isn't intel
00:19:03 <pikhq> Just. GAH. THE PAIN AGONY AND STUPID.
00:19:11 <pikhq> ESPECIALLY THE STUPID.
00:19:41 <elliott> pikhq: In Debian's defence, it totally isn't their fault.
00:19:47 <pikhq> elliott: No, this actually is.
00:20:06 <elliott> pikhq: Isn't it radeons's?
00:20:15 <pikhq> elliott: They built the X driver with a need for kernel modesetting and the kernel without kernel modesetting.
00:20:26 <elliott> pikhq: Pretty sure the kernel has KMS...
00:20:31 <elliott> <pikhq> [dri] If using kernel modesetting, make sure your module is
00:20:31 <elliott> <pikhq> [dri] loaded prior to starting X, and that this driver was built
00:20:31 <elliott> <pikhq> [dri] with support for KMS.
00:21:11 <Vorpal> <Ilari> But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs). <-- DV?
00:21:25 <elliott> pikhq: It'll be a package.
00:21:30 <elliott> pikhq: aptitude search linux | grep kms
00:21:36 <Ilari> Domain Validated (the ordinary kind).
00:22:27 * elliott has never heard of big/little-endianness being referred to as "byte-sex"...
00:22:34 <elliott> But http://www.winehq.org/myths#only_x86 does!
00:23:13 <pikhq> Okay, never mind, it is *certainly* loading the KMS version of the Radeon module.
00:23:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Holy carp -- linux 0.01 isn't under GPL.
00:24:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Although its "license" is terribly unclear; I can't even tell whether it's viral or not.
00:24:07 <elliott> Oh, wait, yes it is. Probably.
00:24:53 <elliott> does anyone understand why ubuntu christian edition and the like exist?
00:25:17 <elliott> other than a really warped centring of your life around your religion? (ok, so that's a "reasonable" thing to do if you take religion literally, but not in the watered-down half-beliefs we have today)
00:25:33 <elliott> Vorpal: also ubuntu muslim edition! SORRY, they renamed it "Sabily"
00:25:36 <Vorpal> "ubuntu christian edition" <--- duuude this is October, not April
00:25:39 <elliott> it means "My Way" in TERRORIST LANGUAGE.
00:25:46 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Sabily-menu.png
00:25:49 <elliott> Pre-installed Islamic software!
00:25:50 -!- catseye has joined.
00:25:54 <elliott> Totally Islamic green colour screen!
00:26:07 <elliott> Automatic DDoSing of Salman Rushdie's website!
00:26:54 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ubuntuce.com/
00:27:04 <elliott> note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
00:27:39 <elliott> http://christianubuntu.blogspot.com/ <-- And here's a mockery of it!
00:27:43 <elliott> "In Ubuntu Christian Edition the mount command calls the sermon script. Ensuring you always get a sermon on the mount."
00:27:49 <elliott> "Ubuntu Christian Edition is Three in One... Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu Christian Edition"
00:27:59 <elliott> "Ubuntu Christian Edition 7.04 will be called "Chaste Fawn"" <-- win
00:28:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not too! <-- that is AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
00:28:27 <elliott> "For 40 days before Easter, Ubuntu Christian Edition works in text mode only."
00:28:36 <Vorpal> elliott, cursor went spare
00:28:38 <Vorpal> <elliott> note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE <-- that is AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE too
00:28:40 <elliott> "What are you giving up for lent?" "X11!" "You're meant to give up something you *like*."
00:28:43 <Vorpal> was what I *meant* to type
00:29:21 <Vorpal> elliott, joke right? This is like the "getafirstlife" website right?
00:29:29 <pikhq> elliott: So, the actual from-ATI driver then.
00:29:29 <elliott> http://christianubuntu.blogspot.com/ is a joke
00:29:32 <elliott> http://ubuntuce.com/ is not
00:29:53 <elliott> pikhq: Even though checkinstall is a bit urgh. But, yeah.
00:30:17 <elliott> About dialogue for Gnome's Wanda the Fish panel applet: "Wanda has no use what-so-ever. It only takes up disk space and compilation time, and if loaded it also takes up precious panel space and memory. Anybody found using it should be promptly sent for a psychiatric evaluation."
00:30:37 <elliott> It does run a command when clicked, though!
00:31:50 <elliott> Vorpal: In Ubuntu Christian Edition, configuring your network card to promiscuous mode is forbidden.
00:31:57 <elliott> Okay, that needs... tightening up.
00:32:14 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a little fish that swims backwards and forth in a tiny 8-frame animation on your panel.
00:32:14 <Vorpal> elliott, looks dead: http://ubuntuce.com/download.htm
00:32:23 <elliott> When you hover over it, you see "Wanda the Fortune Teller".
00:32:27 <elliott> When you click it, it runs fortune.
00:32:28 <Vorpal> thank (hah) god for it being dead
00:32:35 <elliott> Vorpal: But Sabily is alive!
00:34:29 <elliott> Vorpal: You know, I have a friend who has Yggdrasil.
00:34:38 <elliott> I think he was going to upload it at one point...
00:34:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:34:47 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8d/Yggdrasil-linux-summer-94.JPG
00:35:00 -!- augur has joined.
00:35:22 <elliott> "A beta release was made on 18 February 1993.[4].[7] The beta's cost was US$50. LGX's beta release in 1993 contained the 0.99.5 version of the Linux kernel, along with other software from GNU and X.[7] By 22 August 1993, the Yggdrasil company had sold over 3100 copies of the LGX beta distribution.[8]
00:35:22 <elliott> The production release version carried a pricetag of US$99."
00:35:37 <elliott> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/yggdrasil/
00:35:44 <elliott> I GUESS WE DO NOT NEED MY FRIEND AFTER ALL.
00:35:52 <elliott> He switched to Slackware quickly anyway.
00:36:06 <elliott> He also has a NeXT box of some sort, the lucky bastard.
00:36:20 <elliott> Vorpal: "MCC Interim Linux was a Linux distribution first released by Owen Le Blanc of the Manchester Computing Centre (MCC), part of the University of Manchester, England) in February 1992. MCC Interim Linux has the distinction of being the first Linux distribution capable of being independently installed on a computer.[1]"
00:36:25 <elliott> pikhq: SLS wasn't the first, then.
00:36:47 <elliott> "Prior to its first release, the closest approximation to a Linux distribution had been H J Lu's "Boot-root" floppies. These were two 5¼" diskettes consisting of the kernel and the minimum tools required to get started. So minimal were these tools that to be able to boot from a hard drive required editing its master boot record with a hex editor.[4]"
00:37:03 <elliott> omg i just realised XFree86
00:38:32 <elliott> pikhq: So wait, how did you assemble the USB stick?
00:38:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you got that only now?
00:38:49 <Vorpal> elliott, this is like the largest wooosh of this channel ever :P
00:39:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I thought it was "Free X running on the 86 platform"... since, like, 86 was quite a common suffix for x86 stuff.
00:39:09 <elliott> The pronunciation pun... nope, never realised.
00:39:13 <pikhq> elliott: I made a FAT filesystem, syslinux'd it, copied the vmlinux, initrd.img, and the iso onto it, made an appropriate syslinux.cfg, and booted.
00:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it was intended to be read both ways
00:39:33 <elliott> pikhq: Care to tell me where I get the vmlinux and initrd.img from? :P Is it the... the hd-media thing?
00:39:56 <elliott> pikhq: Could you give me your syslinux.cfg? I've never made one before >_>
00:40:03 <elliott> pikhq: Also, did the... tarred thing not work?
00:40:14 <pikhq> elliott: It seems that this creates a not-installable package.
00:40:18 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinfoil_Hat_Linux
00:40:21 <pikhq> elliott: I didn't bother.
00:40:26 <pikhq> The syslinux.cfg, I don't recall.
00:40:33 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway this woooosh is so big that it covers almost all of the wooshing ever done in this channel. Meaning you can mathematically ignore any woooshing done against me :P
00:40:34 <elliott> Don't you have it plugged in? >_>
00:40:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It's not *that* big :P
00:40:49 <elliott> I've never heard anyone pronounce it, after all.
00:40:52 <Vorpal> elliott, worth a try though :P
00:41:01 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: It seems that this creates a not-installable package.
00:41:04 <elliott> pikhq: Checkinstall automatically installs it.
00:41:12 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, and it fails to install that package.
00:41:29 <elliott> pikhq: | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
00:41:38 <elliott> pikhq: 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
00:42:05 <pikhq> elliott: Sooo. This sucks balls.
00:42:19 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
00:42:30 <elliott> pikhq: srsly, you're not the only user of these cards, there will be a solution :P
00:43:01 <pikhq> elliott: THERE IS A BUG REPORT ON IT AND HAS BEEN FOR A MONTH.
00:43:09 <elliott> pikhq: YES BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO USE DEBIAN AND ALSO AMD CARDS
00:43:13 <pikhq> elliott: THE ONLY COMMENT IS "WELL, WORKS IN SID. CLOSING."
00:43:23 <elliott> pikhq: THERE IS A BACKPORTS REPOSITORY FWIW
00:43:39 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, beats Gentoo :P
00:44:08 <pikhq> No, the fucking video drivers build in Gentoo.
00:48:13 <elliott> Vorpal: it would so be easier to write a simple kernel than this shit :P
00:48:39 <Vorpal> elliott, <&2 would no do what you want, since it is an output stream
00:48:54 <Vorpal> elliott, you *can* pipe in an input stream of course
00:49:25 <elliott> "To install wine in Ubuntu Christian Edition, you simply enter apt-get install water."
00:49:52 <pikhq> elliott: Should I upgrade to sid?
00:50:08 <elliott> pikhq: Do you like having as much breakage as Gentoo but with actual new software?
00:50:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Does not exist for testing!
00:50:14 <elliott> pikhq: If so, yes! If not, no.
00:50:14 * catseye takes deep breath and holds nose
00:50:17 -!- catseye has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:50:30 <pikhq> elliott: Well, currently testing is exhibiting breakage.
00:50:37 <pikhq> elliott: Nay, brain damage.
00:50:37 <elliott> pikhq: Try installing just the .deb from sid.
00:50:42 <elliott> pikhq: It works in... some cases.
00:50:53 <elliott> pikhq: http://packages.debian.org/sid/x11/
00:51:11 <pikhq> Well, the only thing I want is a dkms package. It may just work.
00:51:11 <Vorpal> elliott, do it from source deb, more reliable
00:51:37 <elliott> pikhq: You'll probably want to install whatever gives you "debuild(1)".
00:51:43 <elliott> That does all the crap for you.
00:51:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I never been able to install a newer binary .deb on ubuntu. With source debs it sometimes worked
00:51:51 <Vorpal> even worked quite often
00:52:31 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? I just do apt-get source foo && cd foo && fakeroot debian/rules binary
00:52:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought that was what you were supposed to do?
00:52:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yes. But debuild also does that for you :P
00:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, it is of course a screwy build system, especially if you need to patch something
00:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, because there are 10 different systems for patching series of patches
00:53:48 <elliott> - debuild: wrapper to build a package without having to su or worry
00:53:48 <elliott> about how to invoke dpkg to build using fakeroot. Also deals
00:53:49 <elliott> with common environment problems, umask etc. [fakeroot,
00:54:12 <Vorpal> elliott, 15 different automated tools for generating packages semi-automatically, of which 12 are broken enough that the result would be heavily patched by the package maintainer
00:54:33 <Vorpal> at least both arch and gentoo are consistent in how packaging is done
00:54:59 <elliott> Vorpal: There's only one way you're meant to do though really :P
00:55:08 <elliott> smaltalk.tgz 08-Sep-2003 15:09 321K
00:55:19 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a bit annoying when you need to patch the package :P
00:55:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it happens I had to do that
00:55:35 <elliott> | Copyright (C) 1990, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
00:55:40 <Vorpal> elliott, things were smaller back then
00:56:03 <elliott> they had fun we can only dream of
00:56:07 <elliott> they never got anything done
00:56:21 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, trying to sort out the IRQs for the ISA cards?
00:56:33 <elliott> I... have never done that and hope to never have to.
00:56:42 <elliott> I meant more like the kernel being buggy and gcc sucking (well it still does but).
00:56:48 <Vorpal> elliott, nor have I, but I heard about that
00:56:54 <Vorpal> it had to be done sometimes
00:57:14 <Vorpal> elliott, ISA was very much not pnp
00:57:33 <elliott> It's sad how badly Linux/GNU/etc. have gone :(
00:57:47 <elliott> Sure, they're all fundamentally terribly designed, but they could be a hell of a lot more fun,
00:57:59 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, more ISA buses
00:58:04 <elliott> Somewhere along the line someone decided to stop trying to do things differently from Windows and Mac OS.
00:58:31 <Vorpal> elliott, TIME TO WORK ON elliottOS?
00:58:41 <Vorpal> (not caps because I tab completed and was lazy)
00:58:51 <elliott> Vorpal: elliottOS isn't even intended to be developed right now :P
00:59:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I have to go through Mitosis first!
00:59:07 <Vorpal> elliott, good point. It is intended to be planned
00:59:19 <elliott> Hell, I haven't planned anything.
00:59:36 <Vorpal> you could call it that
00:59:45 <Vorpal> plan10 would be better
00:59:51 <Vorpal> "because the 9th one didn't work"
00:59:57 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the platonic perfect OS. There is no possible way I will name it after anything else.
01:00:01 -!- catseye has joined.
01:00:05 <elliott> Even naming it something that's a word is questionable!
01:00:24 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you referring to?
01:00:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh catseye is playing with that?
01:00:51 <elliott> Vorpal: He's trying to install it as his OS.
01:00:54 <catseye> You don't PLAY with NETBSD.
01:01:05 <elliott> catseye is a hardcore BSD mothafucka.
01:01:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> catseye is a hardcore BSD mothafucka. <-- aka, playing with it
01:01:29 <catseye> That sounds much less stupid.
01:02:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Dammit, now I want to make a nice little Unix kernel.
01:02:16 <elliott> Nothing big and professional like gnu...
01:02:20 <Vorpal> elliott, UNIX!? why on earth
01:02:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Because it's like linux 0.01 except I don't have to get Minix working!
01:02:47 <elliott> And I get to BUSYCODE (like busywork but for code -- protected mode, gdt, etc.)
01:02:56 <Vorpal> elliott, would 0.1 be so bad?
01:02:57 <catseye> FMOMNBUWNS may or may not be unix, we're not sure.
01:03:04 <Vorpal> elliott, tried it yet?
01:03:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I might be installing Debian for chrissakes!
01:03:16 <elliott> I'd like to decide that first :P
01:03:28 <elliott> Vorpal: ... no, on this :P
01:03:51 <elliott> I sure hope ~/Code fits into RAM.
01:03:57 <elliott> Because, my migration plan:
01:04:09 <elliott> - Install Debian, wiping out Ubuntu.
01:04:14 <Vorpal> elliott, going from ubuntu?
01:04:23 <Vorpal> elliott, what is wrong with ubuntu?
01:04:26 <elliott> depends if i can get a patched freetype :D
01:04:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I got bored of it! Also, uh, uh.
01:04:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you have separate /home
01:04:41 <elliott> I have software ADHD, dude.
01:04:54 <elliott> And I never will, so nyah :P
01:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott, now you realise why you should have had that
01:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, *power failure while installing*
01:05:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Wait, I have a USB stick.
01:05:10 <elliott> I can just copy it onto there.
01:05:19 <elliott> In fact, it's the USB stick that'll have Debian on it :P
01:05:19 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you use that for install media
01:05:25 <Vorpal> elliott, large enough?
01:05:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the media holding the installer...
01:05:29 <elliott> But it's not what I'm installing to.
01:05:43 <elliott> Anything bigger than a few kbs would be something I could just redownload :P
01:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, don't forget ~/.ssh if you use such stuff
01:06:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't ssh anywhere atm.
01:06:12 <pikhq> elliott: This single look into Debian's build environment is fucking nuts.
01:06:14 <Vorpal> elliott, and probably ~/.mozilla for firefox
01:06:28 <pikhq> elliott: Still fucking nuts what it's doing.
01:06:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't use Firefox. And I'm not really concerned about my Chrome profile.
01:06:34 <pikhq> elliott: And I though RPM was nuts.
01:06:37 <Vorpal> elliott, bookmarks and such
01:06:45 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, dpkg is way better than rpm, it's just everything on top of it that's insane :P
01:06:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't have any bookmarks :)
01:06:57 <Vorpal> started raid array check
01:06:58 <elliott> I'm sort of a neo-pseudo-luddite in my extreme post-modernity.
01:07:04 <Vorpal> forgot it is that night in the week
01:07:05 <elliott> Everything is impermanent!
01:07:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't have that problem, I don't have RAID! Ha ha ha!
01:07:18 <pikhq> Now where does it put the debs?
01:07:24 <elliott> That's alright though, because I don't do anything worth backing up.
01:07:28 <elliott> And if I did, it'd be on the web somewher.
01:07:41 <elliott> (The Linus Torvalds backup system)
01:07:46 <pikhq> ... No, seriously, where?
01:07:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, in the parent dir?
01:07:59 <Sgeo> Javascript syntax for anonymous functions is fugly
01:08:03 <Sgeo> But at least it exists
01:08:03 <pikhq> That's... Retarded.
01:08:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't know how debbuild is invoked, I used the manual way
01:08:22 <pikhq> elliott: Yup, everything on top of dpkg is nuts.
01:08:41 <catseye> Fun fact: there is no beautiful syntax for anonymous functions.
01:09:04 <Vorpal> catseye, lambda in scheme?
01:09:11 <Sgeo> Haskell's is nice. C#'s is nice.
01:09:15 <Sgeo> (Well, one of C#'s)
01:09:17 <Vorpal> catseye, I like the haskell syntax too
01:09:24 <Sgeo> Smalltalk's is nice
01:09:30 <Sgeo> And rather essential
01:09:44 <Vorpal> catseye, I have to admit that the erlang fun syntax is quite onerous
01:09:52 <Sgeo> Well, actually, Smalltalk's could be better, I guess
01:09:59 <elliott> Smalltalk's is nice. Very nice. Perfect even.
01:10:04 <Vorpal> (note that is "fun" as in a keyword, not "fun" as in funny)
01:10:46 <Sgeo> How is C#'s much different from ... Oh
01:10:47 <elliott> Now which one would you find yourself using all the time?
01:10:54 <Sgeo> Right, C#'s doesn't have the indicator thing
01:10:55 <elliott> Which would you find bothersome?
01:10:55 <catseye> Vorpal: that's what makes it a "fun fact" HAHAHAHA
01:10:57 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter looks like haskell without () ?
01:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Haskell doesn't have ().
01:11:07 <elliott> You just use that when it's an argument to group it.
01:11:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that is what I meant
01:11:15 <elliott> The syntax is just \args -> expr.
01:11:18 <pikhq> Well, got this installed properly...
01:11:21 <elliott> What I'm saying is: The Lisp one gets hugely in the way.
01:11:23 <catseye> elliott: Are you going to be here until 7AM again?
01:11:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you usually need it for lambdas though
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01:12:03 <Vorpal> elliott, lisp syntax almost always gets in the way
01:12:12 <Vorpal> elliott, while awesome it is often too verbose
01:12:23 <Sgeo> delegate(){} (another C# syntax) is verbose. function(){} (Javascript's) is verbose
01:12:30 <elliott> Anyone who says that S-Expressions are the perfect syntax is deluding themselves.
01:12:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I said it before, but a joke can never be repeated too many times: I prefer a syntax between lisp and perl
01:12:55 <Sgeo> Is there worse than Javascript's? Javascript's just a bit verbose
01:12:57 <elliott> Ruby's block syntax is nice: {foo} or {|x,y,z| foo} or even do ... end or do |x,y,z| ... end.
01:13:10 <elliott> The latter two let you use stuff that takes lambdas as block control structures.
01:13:13 <elliott> The former two are just nice.
01:13:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the haskell syntax for it is nice
01:13:24 <elliott> By making them "blocks" and functions can only take one.
01:13:25 <catseye> Sexps are the ultimate as an "intermediate format" for syntax. People who prefer to write in intermediate formats ain't human.
01:13:31 <elliott> Because it's not a real first-class argument.
01:13:35 <Sgeo> They're not even objec.. right
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01:13:46 <Sgeo> I suppose that's for syntactical reasons
01:13:47 <Vorpal> elliott, we need m-expressions
01:13:57 <elliott> Vorpal: m-exprs aren't that good :P
01:14:07 <Sgeo> What's the worst?
01:15:25 <elliott> catseye: Ehh, I'm... yeah.
01:15:32 <elliott> At least it has parts of speech.
01:15:40 <elliott> Jot takes the cake for being the most useless.
01:15:45 <Vorpal> catseye, google turns up nothing useful
01:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.basis.netii.net/ursala/
01:16:24 <elliott> %np+~command.options.&h.keyword.&iNC; -+
01:16:24 <elliott> ~&iNC+ file$[contents: --<''>+ %nLP*=; * '<'%='[ '+ ','%=', '+ '>'%=' ]']+ ~&rSSs+ nleq-<&l*rFlhthPXPSPS,
01:16:24 <elliott> ~&i&& ~&lNrNCXX; ~&rr->rl %tLnLtXLLWXMk+ ^/~&l ~&lrrhrSiF4E?/~&rrlPlCrtPX ~&r; ^|/~& ^|T\~& -+
01:16:24 <elliott> -<&l^|*DlrTS/~& ~&iiDlSzyCK9hlPNNXXtCS,
01:16:25 <elliott> ^jrX/~& ~&rZK20lrpblPOlrEkPK13lhPK2; ~&i&& nleq$-&lh+-,
01:16:27 <elliott> ^/~&NNXS+iota -<&l+ ~&plll2llr2lrPrNCCCCNXS*=irSxPSp+ ^H/block iota; *iiK0 ^/~& sum+-
01:16:34 <elliott> Vorpal: The reference manual is beyond amazing: http://www.basis.netii.net/ursala/manual.pdf
01:16:37 <elliott> Every page is a new "wow".
01:16:40 <catseye> Google: reducing you to the masses, one seamless "typo" correction at a time.
01:16:46 <Vorpal> elliott, this looks like J syntax on steroids in unreadability
01:16:56 <elliott> Vorpal: J syntax is perfectly logical and comprehensible. This is not.
01:17:08 <elliott> Vorpal: This is postfix except that commands can actually cause N previous commands to be as if in parentheses.
01:17:14 <elliott> It's ... even I don't understand it.
01:17:17 <catseye> The parts of speech just make it worse!
01:17:53 <catseye> It's like when you're hearing someone speak German and suddently you pick out a borrowing like "Hum-vee"
01:17:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> It's ... even I don't understand it. <-- well.. you don't understand agda either iirc?
01:18:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, not the stdlib code!
01:18:34 <Vorpal> wait, why does the manual start discussing FSMs
01:18:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, it's a "paper"-style thing.
01:19:00 <Vorpal> elliott, that is not a good reference manual though
01:19:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, syntax isn't very important in a theoretical language.
01:19:12 * catseye going to try NetBSD again - someone suggested disabling ACPI for FreeBSD, so... there's a chance
01:19:16 <Vorpal> elliott, no implementations?
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01:19:34 <Vorpal> oh read that as "hypothetical"
01:20:07 <Vorpal> ˆHs\ ̃&hS *+ ˆ|ˆ( ̃&,*+ ˆ|/ ̃&)+ -:+ *= ̃&nS; ˆDrlXS/nleq$- ̃&,
01:20:07 <Vorpal> ˆ= ˆH\ ̃& *=+ |=+ ==++ ̃ ̃bm+ *mS+ -:+ ̃&nSiiDPSLrlXS+-
01:20:08 <elliott> "I’m a big fan of C, as all real programmers are, but I still wouldn’t want to use it for anything too complicated."
01:20:12 <elliott> I would like to nominate this for worst footnote ever.
01:20:34 <elliott> "The command to invoke the compiler is fun." -- because it's so much fun.
01:21:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm on that page and the formatting makes it clear what was meant
01:21:22 <elliott> I wasn't even intending to make a formatting joke.
01:21:30 <pikhq> Smooth fullscreen Flash video.
01:21:46 <Vorpal> I never had problems with that on my system
01:22:06 <Vorpal> $ fun --main=" ̃&nSiiDPSLrlXS" --decompile
01:22:20 <elliott> $ fun cad sys --main="optimized sys" --cast %nsSWnASAS
01:22:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Since all data compiles to what amounts to a list of list | [], the only way to interpret data in any way is to cast it explicitly to a certain type.
01:22:39 <elliott> That cast argument is... a type.
01:22:55 <Vorpal> elliott, is the type a list of list too?
01:23:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Presumably it compiles down to that.
01:23:17 <elliott> Vorpal: (or else isn't actually an ursala expression; dunno)
01:23:38 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, so it uses church numerals or something for representing numbers?
01:23:39 <elliott> pikhq: Do you know if you can get a patched freetype/fontconfig (I forget which) with the Ubuntu patches? :p
01:23:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Something like that.
01:23:49 <elliott> Vorpal: But I think it has "optimisations".
01:24:21 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, seriously. IT WORKS.
01:24:28 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Do you know if you can get a patched freetype/fontconfig (I forget which) with the Ubuntu patches? :p
01:24:37 <pikhq> elliott: Not really.
01:24:45 <elliott> pikhq: I mean -- not one in the repos.
01:24:48 <pikhq> elliott: But DEAR GOD SMOOTH FULLSCREEN FLASH VIDEO.
01:24:55 <elliott> Yeah yeah I care about my text :<
01:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, are you certain this language is not an extremely sophisticated practical joke?
01:25:31 <pikhq> I am not noticing anything odd about the text rendering here.
01:25:45 <elliott> pikhq: That's because you don't have subpixel rendering on.
01:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, how can anyone in earnest think that this is a good idea.
01:25:56 <elliott> pikhq: Then your eyes are simply broken.
01:25:58 <pikhq> I think it's already using the proper hinting.
01:26:05 <elliott> pikhq: There is obvious blue and red colour fringing that you are not perceiving.
01:26:12 <elliott> pikhq: It's not the hinting, it's the actual renderer.
01:26:22 <Vorpal> wait, I scrolled down a bit and suddenly it showed circuit diagrams
01:26:44 <pikhq> elliott: I am *definitely* not seeing fringing.
01:27:15 <elliott> fltk netcat pyadt pythoncard wl
01:27:18 <elliott> Woo, nothing worth preserving
01:27:36 <pikhq> Know a screenshot program?
01:27:40 <elliott> (I tend to not unpack my old ~/Codes on a new system until I use them.)
01:28:03 <elliott> pikhq: Basic usage: "scrot foo.png"; you can also add delays and restrict it to a window, etc.; see the manpage.
01:29:07 <elliott> pikhq: Remember when Xfce decided to imitate OS X for a release?
01:29:10 <elliott> http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.2-1.jpg
01:29:11 <elliott> http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.2-3.jpg
01:31:18 <Vorpal> elliott, the former or?
01:31:48 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter doesn't seem very OS Xish to me
01:32:11 <elliott> Dock-style launcher + in the second one, see any resemblance? http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/empty/macosx102.png
01:32:43 <elliott> pikhq: Any screenshot luck?
01:36:38 <pikhq> elliott: Sorry, I was crushing it from 3.6M to 56K.
01:36:42 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/rvqnwc/screenshot.png
01:37:02 <elliott> pikhq: I sort of need a screenshot of black-on-white text to be able to tell.
01:37:07 <elliott> Inverted font rendering is weird.
01:37:24 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, you have it on full hinting.
01:37:32 <elliott> Yeah, you won't see the screwiness.
01:37:35 <elliott> pikhq: Try Slight hinting.
01:38:48 <pikhq> elliott: Okay then.
01:38:49 * Sgeo alarms at his tongue
01:39:16 <pikhq> So what you're telling me is that my preference for full hinting is a workaround because Freetype sucks?
01:39:56 <elliott> pikhq: Something like that :P
01:40:05 <elliott> pikhq: On the other hand, you get terrible distorted typography!
01:40:22 <pikhq> elliott: It is the only way to make Japanese fonts clearly readable that I have found.
01:40:26 <pikhq> Aside from bitmap fonts.
01:40:30 <elliott> pikhq: Takao looks lovely here on Ubuntu.
01:40:34 <elliott> pikhq: Go on, say some moonspeak.
01:40:51 <elliott> pikhq: Don't want to offer any more?
01:41:20 <elliott> pikhq: Share some moonspeak :P
01:41:41 <elliott> pikhq: Well, congrats. *That* is an unreadable blur.
01:41:49 <pikhq> Note, not readable anyways.
01:41:54 <elliott> pikhq: However, you could easily identify it as "unreadable blur". :P
01:42:05 <pikhq> It's an archaic character for "verbose".
01:42:26 <pikhq> Erm, no, that's not the one.
01:42:27 <elliott> pikhq: http://imgur.com/SebMI.png
01:42:34 <pikhq> That's the appearance of a dragon walking.
01:42:36 <elliott> pikhq: First one looks fine here, considering how low the resolution is.
01:42:45 <elliott> pikhq: What kind of fucking dragons do they have in Japan?
01:42:56 <pikhq> That's some astounding rendering there.
01:43:12 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, the only thing that renders fonts nicer than this is OS X.
01:43:34 <elliott> pikhq: Which is why I want the Ubuntu patches :P
01:43:38 <elliott> pikhq: But it's okay, I can always build my own.
01:43:39 <pikhq> I seriously have not been able to get it to look non-shitty without using full hinting and Meiryo.
01:43:47 <elliott> pikhq: This is with slight hinting and Takao.
01:43:59 <elliott> The non-Japanese font is Ubuntu Sans :P
01:44:12 <elliott> Also known as Trebuchet MS: The Slightly Different Lookalike!
01:44:37 <elliott> pikhq: I'm gonna boot Ubuntu now.
01:44:51 <elliott> pikhq: You will either see me soon or never.
01:45:28 <elliott> pikhq: While I install, enjoy this image of an Apple //e being bootstrapped using a current-generation MacBook Pro.
01:45:55 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevenf/4925237989/
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02:12:04 * Sgeo wants a browser that can easily change the rendering engine used in each tab
02:12:51 <Sgeo> My school's website might be set to use Gecko, other sites WebKit or Pesto
02:16:20 <branan> I don't know how easy it is to integrate Presto without mad hacks, since Opera is closed-source...
02:17:00 <branan> But certainly integrating webkit, gecko, and (on windows) trident *should* be possible
02:18:16 <branan> not that you'd ever want to use trident >_>
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02:20:42 <elliott> pikhq: I'm totally talking to you from lwm.
02:21:09 <elliott> pikhq: I should probably stop messing around and install Xfce.
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02:22:31 <catseye> it worked. you weren't here!
02:22:43 <elliott> catseye: I am here via logs!
02:23:02 <elliott> catseye: Okay, now use pkgsrc or the binary package manager to put Xfce on there and get away from Windows :P
02:24:04 <elliott> catseye: I've just got Debian installed! So I'm going to install Xfce now, bee are bee.
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02:29:55 <Sgeo> My prefered rendering engine attempt order might be Presto > WebKit > Gecko > Trident
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02:32:30 <elliott> pikhq: Xfce depends on HAL.
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02:34:39 * Sgeo hopes it's just being harmless
02:34:43 <Sgeo> Painful, but harmless, I hope
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02:49:06 <elliott> pikhq: Got Grey Mist to hand?
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02:51:02 <elliott> Anyone know what module to blacklist to SHUT THE FUCKING PC SPEAKER UP?
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02:55:18 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously though, Grey Mist :P
02:57:36 <calamari> Gregor: when I think I've completed my facebook page, I still have 5 images left.. what did I miss?
02:58:03 <Gregor> calamari: I don't know, they're hiding from me too :P
02:59:51 <elliott> pikhq: Bleh, it's so unpolished. :P
03:00:17 <elliott> Gregor: Midori should be speedy, right? It uses WebKit so presumably SquirrelFish Extreme.
03:01:30 <Gregor> elliott: Should be OK.
03:01:54 <elliott> Experience so far is exactly like previous Debian experiences, death by a thousand little niggles that Ubuntu doesn't have :P
03:01:57 <Gregor> elliott: JS speed is NOT WebSplat's chokepoint, so the fact that it uses SquirrelFish Extreme is nearly irrelevant.
03:02:08 <elliott> Gregor: It's slower than Chrome. Uh.
03:07:02 <elliott> Gregor: Woo Chromium ignores my fontconfig settings for no apparent reason
03:14:41 <pikhq> elliott: Grey Mist? Coming right up.
03:14:41 <pikhq> elliott: And, yeah, Chromium has always ignored fontconfig. VERY ANNOYING.
03:14:41 <pikhq> Lemme just install curl so my sprunge script works again...
03:14:49 <elliott> pikhq: All those messages came in at once.
03:14:56 <pikhq> elliott: http://sprunge.us/IIcN
03:15:44 <elliott> * Ping reply from pikhq: 46.58 second(s)
03:15:44 <elliott> * Ping reply from pikhq: ? second(s)
03:15:48 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, my cord got unplugged and it took me some time to notice.
03:16:02 <elliott> pikhq: Xfce focuses a window if you use the scroll wheel in it. HATE HATE HATE
03:16:06 <calamari> pikhq: wow, that link tries to open in gedit ... nice one!
03:16:35 <elliott> calamari's browser is configured terribly :P
03:16:40 <elliott> Only the eso-std pastebin did *that*.
03:16:58 <elliott> It does stuff like that, iirc.
03:18:07 <catseye> elliott: I could not get pkg_add to recursively add dependencies for me so I ended up fetching them all manually with ftp. Urrgh.
03:18:16 <elliott> catseye: Isn't it just -r?
03:18:25 <elliott> catseye: You *do* have the manual *right there*.
03:18:41 <elliott> catseye: Did you set the mirror variable?
03:18:49 <elliott> It tells you to in the guide~
03:18:59 <elliott> catseye: Did you sacrifice goats? HOW MANY?
03:19:20 <elliott> pikhq: What's the directory to the gtkrc again?
03:19:24 <elliott> ~/.themes/GreyMist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc?
03:19:36 <catseye> ah well, point was only: bbbare bbbones system setup for now.
03:20:04 <elliott> pikhq: Ew, the lack of menu padding makes the Xfce menu a bit ugly sometimes :P
03:20:14 * elliott sets the terminal to black on white.
03:20:28 <elliott> (Green cursor Xfce? Really?)
03:21:02 <elliott> pikhq: Do you know how to make the xfwm window border less WTFTHICK?
03:21:13 * elliott enables display compositing.
03:21:16 <elliott> Suddenly everything is smoother!
03:22:20 <elliott> pikhq: Settings -> Window Manager Tweaks -> Compositor -> [*] Enable display compositing. [ ] Show shadows under dock windows. Settings -> Panel -> Transparency: 0%.
03:22:26 <elliott> pikhq: This makes everything so much smoother.
03:23:52 <elliott> pikhq: Any ideas wrt WM border?
03:24:41 <elliott> pikhq: I'm working on Grey Mist 1.0. :P
03:25:25 <elliott> pikhq: You know how Grey Mist is like THAT CLOSE TO PERFECT?
03:25:28 <elliott> Totally makin' it perfect here.
03:28:35 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. In the gtkrc, look for [xy]thickness. Can you set them to 2, change theme away, and change theme back? (This reloads it...) This makes one or two things bigger, namely the menu line and tabs and stuff. Just wondering what you think. It's a bit more space but it also seems a little less cramped. Open to input.
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03:41:40 <elliott> pikhq: My userbase is so enthusiastic :P
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03:45:51 <elliott> pikhq: NO WORK IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN GREY MIST
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03:51:19 <elliott> pikhq: Cool, I have no Japanese fonts.
03:51:37 <pikhq> elliott: But, romanised, "hi!"
03:51:56 <elliott> pikhq: I'm setting up Xfce: The Grey Mist Edition. :P
03:52:08 <pikhq> (no relation with the English "hi", which gets re-romanised as "hai!"
03:52:18 <pikhq> (which has no relation with the Japanese word "hai".)
03:52:26 <elliott> (which has no relation to your mom.)
03:52:39 <pikhq> (but all sorts of relations with yours.)
03:52:46 <elliott> pikhq: I have an empty panel to fill X_X
03:52:55 * elliott minimal height vertically-oriented panel!
03:53:21 <elliott> Sweet, the clock fucks that up :P
03:54:35 <elliott> pikhq: Dear god, I'm suffering from extreme panel proliferation :P
03:54:53 <elliott> catseye: Tell me you compiled it with pkgsrc.
03:55:23 <catseye> well,... to an extent it does
03:55:33 <elliott> catseye: apparently the bundled X is a bit... freaky
03:55:36 <elliott> catseye: and modular X from pkgsrc is better
03:55:47 <catseye> apparently i can switch away from X to this terminal screen, but I can't switch back
03:56:03 <catseye> well when i do the screen's al black
03:56:21 <elliott> pikhq: Why is it that nobody's come up with a better launcher/menu model than NeXTSTEP and yet people still do things that are worse?
03:58:14 <pikhq> elliott: Because, uh.
03:59:52 <elliott> pikhq: I just made system trays obsolete. Although not before breakfast! But I totally just did.
04:02:20 <elliott> pikhq: I have a hypothesis.
04:02:41 <elliott> pikhq: Screens should be hexagonal.
04:03:02 <catseye> to make the pixel addressing AWESOME?
04:03:29 <elliott> Although that is an advantage.
04:03:42 <catseye> btw, built-in ftp > ncftp3
04:04:08 <elliott> catseye: Best ftp: wget :P
04:04:15 <elliott> If you know what you're downloading, at least.
04:04:57 <elliott> catseye: pikhq: The actual answer is that with a hexagon, Fitts' Law would be way more useful.
04:05:09 <elliott> Instead of having four perfect targets, you'd have six.
04:05:22 <elliott> Upper-left, upper-right, left, right, bottom-left, bottom-right.
04:05:32 <elliott> So shoot your mouse diagonally or left/right, and you hit a target for sure.
04:06:35 <pikhq> elliott: But then we'd find some punk trying to make widescreen hexagons.
04:07:08 <pikhq> Or even an octagon.
04:07:10 <elliott> pikhq: I need your opinion: A taskbar without the titles (i.e. a row of icons), or a single icon that, when clicked, brings up a list of windows?
04:07:45 * catseye wonders if gmail works in links
04:09:18 <catseye> enough so that if i had to, i could use it
04:09:23 <elliott> <elliott> Is it... normal... for changing the GTK theme to make the Xfce panels go translucent, yet still be set at 0?
04:09:23 <elliott> <elliott> Setting them higher then 0 again fixes the problem.
04:09:23 <elliott> <freeki> happens to me all the time
04:09:25 <elliott> <elliott> That... is the strangest bug I have ever seen.
04:09:48 <elliott> pikhq: I am TOTALLY establishing CONSISTENT METAPHORS here.
04:10:01 <elliott> pikhq: Top-left: Hide. (On windows: iconify. On the screen: show desktop.)
04:12:49 <elliott> pikhq: Good god, it actually works.
04:12:56 <elliott> Who wants to know my HIDEOUS PANEL SYSTEM?
04:14:00 <catseye> it... does not come up when I start X
04:14:20 <elliott> catseye: how did you start X?
04:15:12 <catseye> no, it does now that i start x with 'xinit' and not 'X'
04:15:26 <elliott> catseye: the way to start x is "startx".
04:15:42 <elliott> catseye: as for mouse -- what kind is it?
04:16:06 <elliott> catseye: anything special or just a standard usb mouse?
04:16:07 <catseye> starx is better than xinit which is better than X!
04:16:15 <catseye> standard normal boring usb mouse
04:16:24 <elliott> they all call each other i think
04:16:32 <elliott> catseye: with startx does the horrible cursor show up on the screen?
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04:17:43 <elliott> <elliott> catseye: with startx does the horrible cursor show up on the screen?
04:17:53 <catseye_> if i switch back to the console, i won't be able to get back here without the screen being black.
04:17:59 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> catseye: with startx does the horrible cursor show up on the screen?
04:17:59 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> or not at all?
04:18:13 <catseye_> i had a cursor i think - i don't see it now
04:18:22 <elliott> catseye_: but it won't move?
04:18:32 <elliott> catseye_: try un&re-plugging the mouse
04:18:43 <elliott> in this new world of vicious X
04:19:35 <catseye_> still no. don't think that'll work
04:20:13 <elliott> catseye_: ^Z, do some digging around /var/log/Xorg*
04:20:16 <elliott> bet there's an error in there
04:20:29 <catseye_> yeah, let me try screwing with shit
04:20:37 <catseye_> screwing with shit ALWAYS works.
04:20:39 -!- catseye_ has quit (Client Quit).
04:21:36 <catseye> netbsd certainly saw me plugging in and unplugging the mouse. just x didn't
04:21:44 <elliott> catseye: what about the X log?
04:22:54 <elliott> pikhq: ask me about my ULTIMATELY HIDEOUS panel setup!
04:24:20 <catseye> elliott: it is bitching about "No protocol specified" for the "default pointer"
04:24:29 <elliott> catseye: just install modular X :P
04:24:37 <elliott> catseye: do you have an xorg.conf?
04:24:51 <elliott> catseye: that'll put it in /root or wherever
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04:25:01 <elliott> x doesn't use xorg.conf by default any more
04:25:21 <elliott> most confusing smiley EVER
04:25:30 <elliott> pikhq: ask me about my ULTIMATELY HIDEOUS panel setup!
04:25:42 <pikhq> catseye: And how it does configuration?
04:25:52 <pikhq> Suprisingly, the magic works.
04:26:11 <catseye> elliott: I don't think this is X.org X though.
04:26:14 <elliott> pikhq: The magic works *sometimes*.
04:26:26 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, true, sometimes it doesn't.
04:26:30 <elliott> Also, old "NetBSD X" = "XFree86" :P
04:26:34 <elliott> catseye: BUT it's an old version or something.
04:26:40 <elliott> catseye: Everyone just uses the modular X from pkgsrc.
04:26:42 <pikhq> catseye: X.org is the only maintained X.
04:26:50 <catseye> elliott: where IS the modular X in pkgsrc?
04:26:58 <pikhq> Well, unless you count OpenBSD's crazy hacks.
04:29:13 <catseye> NetBSD X = XFree86 in NetBSD's source tree with NetBSD's patches
04:30:16 <pikhq> XFree86 is dead. Beyond dead. It makes Linux 2.2 seem vibrant.
04:30:42 <catseye> elliott: I meant, the last time I was involved in BSD
04:31:08 <elliott> pikhq: ASK ME ABOUT MY PANELS OR DIE
04:31:23 <catseye> when I asked "where IS", I meant also: are these modular X packages all prefixed with something consistent? if so, what is it?
04:31:34 <catseye> Or otherwise follow a naming convention?
04:31:37 <elliott> catseye: probably xorg- or something
04:31:44 <elliott> why not just look at the tree and grep various plausible things? :P
04:32:09 <elliott> catseye: http://pkgsrc.se/x11/modular-xorg-server
04:32:48 <elliott> catseye: no, i want to see ... uh.
04:34:23 <pikhq> elliott: Do your panels convince me to stop procrastinating?
04:36:21 <elliott> pikhq: Come on, who else has 100% transparent panels?
04:37:51 <Sgeo> If a wifi router requires a password, but the password is the same, is it no longer wide open somehow?
04:38:10 <Sgeo> Or can everyone with the password see the communications of everyone with the password
04:38:13 <Sgeo> s/password/key
04:40:38 <Sgeo> elliott, you are awesomly unhelpful
04:41:16 <elliott> Sgeo: You are awesomely terrible at spelling, awesomely terrible at utilising an appropriate adjective other than "awesomely" in that sentence, and awesomely not even trying to apply logic to the problem before asking it.
04:41:33 <elliott> pikhq: Your mother does indeed not it.
04:42:00 <pikhq> elliott: The power of Google Translate.
04:42:28 <Sgeo> Maybe there's some per connection encryption thing that works well but that is only a part of WPA2 for some reason
04:42:52 <elliott> pikhq: Of Google that to him becomes wa he is everything [
04:43:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:43:09 <Sgeo> (as opposed to being automatic on "insecure" wifi networks
04:43:15 <elliott> pikhq: Real property tax that never is the best Web site.
04:43:46 <elliott> pikhq: If we are not a web browser, splendourful cannot the specific one of the interior not still be visualized of this Web site, that is in the Internet.
04:44:42 <catseye> (needed to run disklabel to figure out what the friggin partitions were)
04:45:05 <Sgeo> What I'm basically asking is if there's anything sane my campus could be doing to prevent packet sniffing just from using the open wifi
04:45:28 <Sgeo> Even if it means saying to everyone "Oh, you have to put in a password. The password is xyz"
04:45:51 <elliott> "Gee, guys, should I try and be secure or should I just decide whether to worry or not based on the security of the Wi-Fi?"
04:46:22 <Sgeo> I want to know if I can call my college's IT dept. incompetent
04:46:58 <elliott> pikhq: sane my campus could be doing to prevent packet sniffing just f
04:47:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/cfe-dev/2010-October/011711.html
04:47:08 <elliott> pikhq: You want to click this.
04:47:11 <catseye> elliot is turning into fungot
04:47:11 <fungot> catseye: hm. next on the debian mirrors yet. fnord. stuart. i shall endeavour to do better than scheme, yome?), so i can't be blamed for not having a solution.
04:47:54 <elliott> pikhq: http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/cfe-dev/2010-October/011711.html
04:48:01 <pikhq> elliott: THE CLANG OF THE LINUX!
04:48:07 <elliott> pikhq has gone batshit insane.
04:48:59 <elliott> pikhq: I SHOULD TOTALLY WRITE MY OWN WEB BROWSER
04:49:09 * coppro wonders who the oldest mayor in the world is
04:49:29 <coppro> Hazel McCallion is definitely in the running
04:49:55 <elliott> coppro: Can't you be appreciative of my answer?
04:50:20 <elliott> pikhq: 100% transparent panels = confuzzling
04:50:48 <elliott> coppro: You may have sadness within you.
04:52:30 <coppro> elliott: Hazel McCallion is 89 years old
04:52:35 <coppro> and just got reelected for a 12th term
04:52:51 <elliott> coppro: Your mom is [Integer overflow.
04:54:07 <coppro> elliott: did you know that your mom jokes aren't funny?
04:54:18 <elliott> coppro: No, but your face did.
04:54:37 <coppro> often her election campaign consists of filing nomination papers
04:55:57 <elliott> Worlds Oldest and Longest Running Mayor • VideoSift: Online Video ...
04:55:57 <elliott> She's 88 years old and has been mayor for 31 years running. It's the 6th largest city in Canada and it's one of the few cities to be debt-free in Canada and ...
04:55:59 <elliott> 96-year-old is likely nation's oldest mayor - U.S. news - msnbc.com
04:56:00 <elliott> 20 Dec 2004 ... At 96, Ocean Breeze Park, Fla., Mayor Dorothy Geeben is probably the nation's oldest, but she's so well liked that no one is opposing her ...
04:56:03 <elliott> Oldest Mayor celebrates her 100th birthday with youngest Mayor
04:56:03 <elliott> 17 Dec 2009 ... Oldest Mayor celebrates her 100th birthday with youngest Mayor ... department is organising a party for her and Islington's current Mayor, ...
04:56:24 <elliott> coppro: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6738078/?GT1=5936
04:56:27 <elliott> coppro: http://www.islington.gov.uk/Council/CouncilNews/PressOffice/2005/10/2248.asp
04:57:43 <coppro> elliott: Dorothy Geeben is dead
04:58:12 <elliott> (As is Bela Lugosi.) coppro: Is the other one?
04:58:37 <coppro> based on the article, she is more acccurately the oldest former mayor and nota ctually serving
04:59:34 <coppro> and the 88-year old is Hazel
05:00:23 <coppro> (tip: she's very popular)
05:00:38 <elliott> catseye: get it right forever
05:00:54 <coppro> she also apparently managed to get elected world's second-best mayor, according to wikipedia
05:01:27 -!- catseye has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:02:07 <coppro> iirc she's also our country's highest-paid mayor
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05:18:34 <catseye> "Oh, don't run X -configure, X.org doesn't do it that way these days"
05:19:23 <catseye> Now... I need a web browser
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05:22:50 <elliott> <catseye> I got my blackbox (!)
05:24:22 -!- DrNinja has joined.
05:24:33 <DrNinja> no more switching to console
05:24:45 -!- DrNinja has changed nick to catseye.
05:25:43 <elliott> catseye: blackbox, i am disappoint
05:26:07 <elliott> catseye: let's go for 0.5.
05:26:15 <elliott> catseye: The WM for true minimalists is lwm.
05:27:55 <elliott> catseye: It draws a 2 to 4 pixels or so black border around every window, and a black title bar. The title bar has, on the left, a hollow white square; clicking this closes the window. It also has the window title. Dragging the title bar moves the window. And dragging the border resizes the window. What happens when any of the three mouse buttons are pressed on the desktop is configurable.
05:28:04 <elliott> ^ from this description, you can reimplement lwm exactly
05:28:14 <elliott> Oh, and it uses a red cursor when you're not over any window.
05:28:21 <elliott> Oh, and you can configure it between sloppy focus and click-to-focus.
05:29:56 <elliott> i just described lwm in its entirety :P
05:30:12 <catseye> it sounds like iwant to read its source code
05:30:53 <catseye> so i can write my own window manager
05:31:04 <elliott> catseye: it's unfortunately not as simple as you might think.
05:31:08 <elliott> catseye: oh, another nice small WM: aewm
05:31:23 <catseye> what, writing one's own window manager? no, i suspected not
05:32:31 <catseye> har, Firefox depends on Python 2.6 :/
05:32:41 <elliott> it's like firefox without the shit
05:32:46 <elliott> now official browser of xfce :P
05:32:53 <elliott> also, uhh, it's just better.
05:33:16 <catseye> How else do I put NetBSD through its paces??
05:33:21 <elliott> catseye: i... is there a point trying to reason with you here
05:33:33 * elliott gets the feeling catseye doesn't want to use netbsd :D
05:33:47 <catseye> You should check it out some time!
05:34:19 <catseye> I have mixed emotions about NetBSD
05:34:33 <elliott> <catseye> Also, DUDE. Midori!
05:34:33 <elliott> <catseye> You should check it out some time!
05:34:43 <elliott> are you just repeating me for no reason :D
05:34:45 <catseye> This already feels astonishingly efficient compared to Windows or Ubuntu
05:34:58 <elliott> catseye: so would ubuntu, if you installed blackbox or whatever :p
05:34:58 <catseye> But the BSDs are like America:
05:35:07 <catseye> Powerful, and maintained by assholes.
05:35:15 <elliott> catseye: netbsd guys seem nice
05:35:19 <elliott> atl east from what i've read
05:35:37 <elliott> catseye: and linux guys aren't assholes? :P
05:35:39 <catseye> UNTIL THEY YELL AT YOU FOR NOT USING LINT
05:35:51 <catseye> no, linux guys are *wankers*. there is a difference.
05:36:32 <elliott> catseye: assholes vs. wankers. i'll go with assholse
05:37:21 <catseye> Now would be the perfect time for some new ager to show up here
05:38:03 <elliott> why are you even doing that
05:38:11 <elliott> why are you installing firefox :P
05:38:24 -!- aster has joined.
05:38:28 <aster> i'm elliott's new ager friend
05:38:40 <aster> you can tell because i never used punctuation
05:39:55 <aster> also firefox sucks
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05:41:06 <coppro> elliott: hmm... are you sure you aren't insane
05:41:20 <elliott> coppro: catseye is installing firefox just to put netbsd through the paces
05:41:26 <elliott> i am fairly sure that i am still better than him
05:42:18 <elliott> catseye: Comfortable. Not drinking too much.
05:42:33 <elliott> Regular exercise at the gym three days a week. getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries. At ease.
05:44:55 <catseye> Good morning Mozilla Firefox Start Page!
05:45:17 <elliott> i wonder if catseye actually enjoys using firefox
05:45:38 <catseye> I prefer dillo but dillo sucks at all sites
05:45:55 <catseye> And getting dillo installed would have been pfft yeah so what
05:46:13 <elliott> catseye: my midori totally looks like firefox! because i stabbed it with a rusty fork
05:46:32 <elliott> it's two point ... point YES!
05:46:50 <catseye> elliott: please, please, do not go into marketing.
05:46:58 <catseye> the world will not be able to handle that.
05:47:02 <elliott> catseye: oh yeah, marketing is sooo my #1 career choice
05:48:00 <elliott> catseye: studies in obnoxious UIs: "Welcome to Windows Phone 7 Connector for Mac, we're glad you're here."
05:48:34 <elliott> It continues: "Windows Phone 7 Connector lets you synchronise your favorite music, videos, photos and podcasts from iTunes and iPhoto to your blah blah blah WE WILL TELL YOU HOW AWESOME OUR PRODUCT IS SO THAT IT TAKES YOU LONGER BEFORE YOU GET TO US EIT."
05:48:37 <catseye> Firefox thinks its called "Namoroka" for some reason.
05:48:54 <catseye> "Namoroka will try to restore your tabs.." wtf
05:48:57 <elliott> "When an update for your Windows Phone 7 software WE WILL TOTALLY SHOW YOU UPDATES EVEN THOUGH WE COULD ANYWAY WITHOUT TELLING YOU ABOUT IT AND YOU WOULDN'T NEED TO KNOW OR ANYTHING"
05:49:09 <elliott> "Ready to get started? 'Cause we'd prefer to give you more spiel, but, you know, we're out of window."
05:49:17 <elliott> catseye: thank Mozilla's trademark rules
05:49:27 <elliott> catseye: Namoroka is the codename for the current firefox release
05:49:32 <elliott> that's what you get because Mozilla are a bunch of assholes
05:49:44 <catseye> crazy people OK MIDORI HERE I COME
05:49:46 <elliott> catseye: basically if you modify firefox in ANY WAY, you can't call it firefox. this includes replacing the artwork with the free versions
05:49:53 <elliott> catseye: because the default logo is non-free
05:50:01 <elliott> replace it with a free one, poof! you can't call it firefox any more.
05:50:11 <elliott> this is why debian ships "iceweasel"
05:50:41 <catseye> Freedom frees the free free frees
05:51:20 <calamari> it's silly because the non-fiery planet logo is better than the official one
05:52:07 <elliott> i won't comment on the aesthetics but at least it's free...
05:52:13 <elliott> mozilla are like sun, ibm, etc.
05:52:17 <elliott> not really committed to freeness. a shame
05:52:41 <catseye> but they're, like, a charity or some shit (note: i know this means nothing)
05:52:42 <elliott> hey, apple finally did the reasonable thing and ditched scrollbars in next os x. (ok so i'm reading mac sites for... "nostalgia"?)
05:53:04 <catseye> elliott: well you have a Mac. well so do I. WAIT THIS MAKES NO SENSE
05:53:11 <elliott> also removing the distinction between an open/closed application
05:53:22 <elliott> (no "app is open" indicators on the dock, apps save their state when closed and resume it on startup)
05:53:28 <elliott> (this is, of course, the bloomin' obvious thing to do)
05:53:34 <elliott> coppro: yes; they now show when you scroll
05:53:42 <catseye> there's some way to set up a menu in blackbox but i forget
05:53:44 <coppro> how do you scroll without them
05:53:50 <elliott> coppro: have you looked at your mouse recently?
05:53:59 <coppro> also, how does an application close? When the last window is closed?
05:54:08 <coppro> elliott: what if you have a one-button mouse. WHAT THEN
05:54:09 <catseye> anyway elliott i am *dangerously* close to making this a usable-for-everyday-work system
05:54:09 <elliott> <coppro> also, how does an application close? When the last window is closed?
05:54:15 <elliott> no (that's not the mac way) but that's irrelevant
05:54:26 <elliott> coppro: then... your mac is too old to run 10.7 anyway :P
05:54:34 <coppro> elliott: no, it's not irrelevant. too many things running at once = bad
05:54:40 <catseye> elliott: so you'll install NetBSD as your main OS *too*, right? :)
05:54:42 <elliott> get the credit card out and also the steve jobs fellatio over tcp/ip interface
05:54:55 <elliott> catseye: if i can get networking and packages working SHUR
05:54:59 <calamari> catseye: what OS are you preparing?
05:55:01 <coppro> elliott: ah, but how do you know that an application is running in the background
05:55:16 <elliott> coppro: y'know, i'm pretty sure they can easily make app gc
05:55:21 <elliott> coppro: close it when it hasn't been used in a while
05:55:24 <catseye> "NetBSD - because you want your computer to feel like a toaster"
05:55:25 <elliott> that would both be easy and obvious
05:55:35 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has toaster feeling!
05:55:59 <catseye> (note: one-person applause: kind of lame)
05:56:01 <calamari> so you're going from windows xp? to netbsd
05:56:09 <elliott> but he was using ubuntu before that, so
05:56:16 <elliott> ^faq a package management system! It's a tarball
05:56:17 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has a package management system! It's a tarball!
05:56:25 <elliott> the endless vista of possibilities
05:56:34 <catseye> and i reserve the right to boot into it occasionally
05:56:38 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has your mom!
05:56:55 <coppro> elliott: yes, but I'm asking if they will
05:57:10 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.11/20101012113537]).
05:57:20 <coppro> it's a logical thing to do in Mac's context
05:57:24 <elliott> coppro: well it would be an excellent tactic to make people buy more ram... but considering that they sell at least two computers where you can't replace the RAM, that would not be a terribly effective strategy :D
05:57:30 <coppro> (although worth pointing out that it's not particularly original)
05:57:40 <elliott> apple's programmers are pretty good in general, even when they're asked to do stupid things
05:57:47 <coppro> elliott: I meant the whole 'eliminating the distinction' thing
05:57:56 <coppro> which Microsoft actually surprisingly beat them to
05:58:05 <elliott> Microsoft has an indicator to show whether a program is open or not
05:58:13 <elliott> coppro: what microsoft does now is what apple does now
05:58:21 <elliott> show all the application launchers there
05:58:27 <elliott> and have an indicator when they're running
05:58:32 <elliott> this is what apple has done since 2001
05:58:43 <elliott> coppro: what apple are doing is removing the indicator, and *also* making it so that apps save their state on quit
05:58:53 <elliott> so that you could leave it a year, click it, and it'd come back how you lefti t
05:59:23 <elliott> catseye: grey mist! it is the best theme for tgk!
05:59:35 <coppro> elliott: well, the saving-state thing is orthogonal to the removal of indication of runningness
05:59:40 <elliott> catseye: it attempts to be the most boring gtk theme possible! and it works!
05:59:51 <elliott> coppro: otherwise, here's how to tell whether an application was closed at time T:
05:59:55 <elliott> coppro: open application at time T+1
05:59:59 <catseye> elliott: i have no idea how those work gtk2-engines?
06:00:01 <elliott> coppro: see if it's how it was the last time you used it
06:00:09 <elliott> catseye: install gtk2-engines, yes
06:00:14 <elliott> catseye: then i'll tell you how to install GREEEEY MIIIIIST
06:00:17 <elliott> catseye: also install gtk-chtheme
06:00:18 <catseye> elliott: midori is MAKING ME
06:00:55 <coppro> but as I said, it's orthogonal to indicating if it's open or closed
06:01:07 <elliott> coppro: but you can't remove the distinction without not indicating, of course
06:01:13 <elliott> and the only way to completely remove the distinction is by doing both
06:01:27 <coppro> the distinction of a window being open or not still exists
06:01:51 <elliott> (window != app *even more so* in OS X)
06:02:05 <coppro> elliott: and in my opinion, Mac should have long ago done away with the notion that an application can be running and have no windows open
06:02:16 <coppro> unless it is intended to be a background application
06:02:16 <elliott> coppro: actually, that notion is fundamentally Macian
06:02:26 <catseye> elliott: what are cool things i can do on Macs
06:02:29 <elliott> coppro: because, with windows, it's generally an-app-has-a-window
06:02:38 <elliott> coppro: whereas with macs, which have traditionally been *spatial*
06:02:44 <catseye> it's like a lump of white plastic on my desk at work
06:02:45 <elliott> coppro: always have "an app has any number of windows"
06:02:54 <elliott> "and may spawn more of them in the course of normal operation"
06:03:01 <coppro> it should be 'an application has exactly the number of windows it needs'
06:03:06 <coppro> you cannot use a browser with 0 windows
06:03:17 <elliott> coppro: say i'm using my browser
06:03:20 <elliott> coppro: i click close on all the windows
06:03:25 <elliott> coppro: i go to the menu to open a new window
06:03:28 <elliott> coppro: suddenly, my browser menu is gone
06:03:32 * Sgeo angers at Opera
06:03:33 <coppro> that's identical to starting up a new instance of the browser, modulo any startup time
06:03:33 <elliott> and replaced with the previous app i was using
06:04:06 <coppro> elliott: they should also do away with the retarted central menu
06:04:10 <Sgeo> So it wants me to manually type https:// ?
06:04:19 <elliott> Sgeo: like every other browser
06:04:22 <elliott> coppro: basically they should remove everything and make it KDE, right?
06:04:24 <Sgeo> And the error message says nothing to indicate that
06:04:32 <coppro> elliott: xmonad now, remember? :P
06:04:38 <catseye> midori requires ORBit2, uh huh
06:04:46 <Sgeo> elliott, what happens when you type oasis.farmingdale.edu into any other browser?
06:04:50 <coppro> anyway, I contend that both of those things are dumb
06:04:53 <coppro> one does imply the other
06:05:05 <elliott> coppro: the central menu is a good idea for a menu-oriented interface like the mac
06:05:08 <Sgeo> elliott, not in Opera
06:05:12 <elliott> and if you disagree, you're shitting on jef raskin's grave
06:05:18 <Sgeo> Opera complains about an illegal port number
06:05:27 <coppro> especially if they wish to remove the notion of a running vs. not-running program
06:05:41 <elliott> coppro: it works perfectly if you have apps with zero windows
06:05:43 <Sgeo> The URL https://oasis.farmingdale.edu:/pls/banner/twbkwbis.P_WWWLogin contains a port number that is not in the range 1 to 65535.
06:05:51 <elliott> the menu is there, you can use it if you want to open a window or whatever or create a new file
06:05:52 <coppro> elliott: I have no issue with background applications
06:05:59 <elliott> coppro: note: why do you have to have an empty, new file to open a file?
06:06:01 <elliott> this also makes no spatial sense
06:06:17 <Sgeo> I want my multi-rendering-engine browser dammit!
06:06:52 <coppro> elliott: sure. I just think it's dumb.
06:07:06 <catseye> elliott: this thing has MORE dependencies than firefox
06:07:07 <elliott> coppro: well, thanks for your opinion, i'll note that down in a book :P
06:07:22 <catseye> it's certainly asking for more
06:07:33 <coppro> also please note my opinion on free trade
06:07:49 <elliott> catseye: probably the firefox package is stripped down
06:08:09 <elliott> Requirements: GTK+ 2.10, WebkitGTK+ 1.1.1, libXML2, libsoup 2.25.2, sqlite
06:08:09 <elliott> Optional: Unique 0.9, libidn, docutils, libnotify
06:08:24 <elliott> catseye: something *else* is pulling in those dependencies.
06:08:45 <catseye> something midori depends on, YEAH
06:08:53 <elliott> catseye: you are really pissy
06:09:15 <catseye> elliott: it's not too serious :)
06:09:31 <catseye> more paces for NetBSD! hoof hoof hoof
06:09:34 <elliott> my stomach hurts but i am sleepy!
06:11:46 <catseye> elliott: I am so going to rebuild this kernel when I get around to ti
06:11:58 <elliott> catseye: dude no just use THREADBARE LINUX
06:12:26 <elliott> and drop the make tools line for that matter
06:12:34 <elliott> catseye: voila, latest and greated linux 0.01 system compiled
06:12:43 <catseye> i've never built a linux kernel
06:12:53 <elliott> catseye: that's ok, linux 0.01 has no configuration
06:12:56 <catseye> and v0.01 would be the coolest
06:12:56 <elliott> it all happens automatically
06:13:05 <elliott> you need minix to build it
06:13:13 <elliott> now, dunno if you know this
06:13:21 <elliott> but getting minix 1.5 to work in qemu
06:14:20 <catseye> elliott: hey is it 7:13AM where you are?
06:14:33 <elliott> catseye: linux 0.01 was so bad that the filesystem routines were more likely to cause race conditions than not
06:14:34 <catseye> ah so my clock is... just confused
06:14:44 <elliott> catseye: it may be thinking it's still british summer time
06:14:47 <elliott> is it? i dunno, probably not
06:15:08 <elliott> catseye: basically with linux 0.01 writing to the filesystem anything other than serially = hurr
06:15:19 <elliott> i think maybe reading could fuck up too... possibly
06:15:30 <elliott> catseye: also: no filesystem permissions
06:15:45 <catseye> whoa so... not even from minix huh?
06:16:05 <elliott> minix did it all perfectly
06:16:09 <elliott> linux was a pile of shit :P
06:16:32 <elliott> catseye: funly, linux used the minix fs
06:16:35 <catseye> i... hought that was one of the basic things you would copy from minix
06:16:37 <elliott> bet it gave all files 777 permissions :D
06:17:44 <catseye> I sneeze 3000 lines of code without knowing.
06:17:48 <elliott> catseye: wait actually a bit more
06:17:56 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/linux$ wc -l **/*.{s,c} | tail -1
06:18:10 <elliott> catseye: largest file is just 678 lines though
06:18:15 <catseye> so, 7.5kloc.. that's still.. SHEESH tiny.
06:18:30 <elliott> catseye: it's only 52 files of C and asm
06:19:27 <catseye> it started life as a terminal emulator, they say
06:19:29 <elliott> catseye: oh and ofc you had to use gnu libc :)
06:19:42 <elliott> 34589734593745 bits of work linus doesn't have to do
06:19:51 <elliott> rather you could use any libc i GUESS
06:19:58 <elliott> catseye: http://sprunge.us/bRPg full summary of files
06:20:43 <elliott> catseye: i didn't count the header file
06:20:55 <catseye> sure just let me get Midori installed and I'll check that right out
06:21:00 <elliott> catseye: with header files but not counting whitespace and comments:
06:21:03 <elliott> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 8,102
06:21:08 <elliott> (Total Estimated Cost to Develop = $ 243,032 <-- lol)
06:21:16 <elliott> catseye: that sprunge link is plaintext
06:22:00 <elliott> catseye: protip: you can slim down that toolbar immensely
06:22:06 <elliott> it's an extension, look in tools -> extensions
06:22:57 <catseye> it has been too long. how do i copy text out of rxvt?
06:23:54 <catseye> what extension is it called?
06:24:27 <catseye> also i need to use atom feeds on my website
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06:25:32 <elliott> catseye: customise toolbar
06:25:39 <elliott> then it appears in tools menu
06:25:41 <elliott> i just have the toolbar as
06:25:45 <elliott> back forwards refresh location google
06:26:05 <elliott> catseye: also in preferences: disable show speed dial in new tabs, interface -> tick open tabs in the backgroun
06:26:27 <catseye> ok i can surf the web whee
06:28:53 <elliott> catseye: i don't recall now
06:29:16 <elliott> catseye: ha, i always forget, nc110.tgz is a tarbomb :)
06:29:40 <elliott> -e prog program to exec after connect [dangerous!!]
06:29:52 <elliott> -g gateway source-routing hop point[s], up to 8\n\
06:29:52 <elliott> -G num source-routing pointer: 4, 8, 12, ...\n\
06:30:12 <elliott> catseye: nothing about ipv6?
06:30:24 <catseye> yep. it's the jenny-wayne article!
06:30:30 <elliott> catseye: well there's one way to find out
06:30:38 <elliott> catseye: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nc110/files/unix netcat 1.10 by _Hobbit_/[Unnamed release]/nc110.tgz/download
06:30:56 <elliott> catseye: build that, diff the result to your nc :P
06:31:04 <elliott> if it differs, ARTICLE INSUFFICIENTLY GENUINE, make install
06:31:12 <catseye> Sgeo: Tocqueville. Discuss.
06:31:24 <elliott> catseye: IS THAT A VIRTUAL WORLD
06:31:27 <elliott> I CAN TELL CAUSE OF -VILLE DUDE
06:31:34 <elliott> i like how sgeo isn't here
06:32:09 <elliott> catseye: there's a buffer overflow in nc(1) apparently
06:32:19 <elliott> what matters is that it's hobbit's
06:32:54 <catseye> perhaps asshole #3 will give the world OpenNetcat
06:32:56 <elliott> i am maybe a bit of a purist :D
06:33:07 <elliott> catseye: opinion: every archive should be a shar archive
06:33:11 <catseye> with only two holes in the default install in 12 years
06:33:20 <elliott> catseye: there's already openbsd netcat lawl
06:33:26 <catseye> elliott: sh should have a denotational semantics, agree/disagree
06:33:29 <elliott> catseye: also they removed that and make it totally vague
06:33:35 <elliott> because people kept finding holes
06:33:39 <elliott> also, because the default install is uselses
06:33:46 <elliott> and so having a flaw in it is particularly embarrassing
06:33:49 <elliott> it having no servers or anything
06:34:30 <elliott> bash: make: command not found
06:38:17 <catseye> make is an excellent programming language
06:39:02 <catseye> i appear to have svn now (not that I need it; i have nc)
06:40:03 <elliott> catseye: i write everything in make/nc
06:40:20 <elliott> catseye: omg you could totally do gui apps with nc
06:40:25 <elliott> catseye: just tell X to listen on tcp
06:43:14 <catseye> elliott: did you know your father was a fish? maybe, you should worship a fish god.
06:43:47 * elliott attempts to work fish into something accurately representing his opinion of his father, fails
06:43:55 <elliott> instead, here's a Useless Use of test Award winner:
06:46:34 <catseye> elliott: you are educated stupid! you do not accept four-cornered cube wisdom of wisest man on earth.
06:46:50 <elliott> either i'm hallucinating or catseye is
06:46:52 <catseye> also, all clocks are wrong.
06:47:10 <catseye> ok, enough... whatshisname.
06:47:47 <elliott> catseye: gene ray, doctor of cubic
06:48:01 <catseye> Apparently he is the *second* wisest human, now.
06:48:48 <elliott> catseye: the site is http://www.timecube.com/
06:49:13 <elliott> i think it's doctor of cubic, not cubism
06:49:27 <catseye> EXISTS BETWEEN A TOP AND BOTTOM, BETWEEN A FRONT AND BACK, BETWEEN OPPOSITE SIDES,
06:49:30 <catseye> AND INSIDE AND OUTSIDE. A LL YOU DUMB EVIL BASTARDS EARN
06:50:40 <elliott> Exists between a top and bottom / Between a front and back / Between opposite sides / And inside and outside / All you dumb evil bastards earn
06:53:14 <coppro> between an up and a down / a strange and a charm / a top and a bottom / stands a gluon alone
06:53:30 <elliott> now coppro has taken it into bad quantum poetry
06:53:36 <elliott> but you won't see that on the charts!
06:53:46 <elliott> coppro: ask me about my insane panel set up
06:54:00 <coppro> elliott: the thing about quantum poetry is the only way to determine if it's good or bad is to read it
06:54:04 <catseye> yeah yeah / hey hey / yeah yeah / nah nah nah nah nah, nah / hey
06:54:08 <coppro> elliott: what is your insane panel setup?
06:54:19 * elliott ignores that second-to-latest line of coppro's
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06:54:50 <elliott> coppro: topleft, 100% transparent -- i.e. invisible -- a show desktop button in a minimal-width-and-height panel by itself.
06:54:54 <elliott> coppro: it appears only with my mouse over it, although i could change that too
06:55:03 <elliott> coppro: bottomleft, 100% transparent, the same but with the xfce menu
06:55:25 <coppro> a sine, sine, everywhere a sine. in the fourier breakdown in the world of mine
06:55:32 <catseye> http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/
06:55:33 <elliott> coppro: topright, opaque, minimal width and height: notification area, battery monitor, clock, wastebasket button, logoff button; arranged horizontally
06:55:39 <coppro> elliott: I have no panel
06:55:48 <elliott> coppro: bottomright, opaque, minimal width and height: list of icons representing open windows. vertically arranged
06:55:56 <elliott> i.e. half my panels are invisible and only one button
06:56:01 <elliott> and the other is horizontal
06:56:06 <catseye> and "FreeBSD" is under "Linux"
06:56:06 <elliott> (of the ones that aren't invisible)
06:56:51 <elliott> catseye: hey that landing page is new. and lame
06:57:05 <elliott> they're using the old windows logo
06:57:13 <elliott> and i think an old apple logo
06:57:19 <elliott> wait no, apple logo is current
06:59:29 <elliott> catseye: *terminal, also >:D
07:00:06 <catseye> now let's see, you want leaves, boiled in water, with a liquid squirted from a cow put into it
07:00:27 <elliott> catseye is on DRUUUGS MAAAAAAAN
07:00:51 <elliott> MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
07:00:57 <catseye> just grape juice (rotten) and Douglas Adams
07:01:17 <elliott> catseye: relevant: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/?cid=003.jpg
07:02:47 <elliott> the only webcomic worth reading
07:02:49 <elliott> Gregor: http://yourewinner.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Main_Page
07:04:15 <elliott> http://yourewinner.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Big_Rigs_Online
07:04:19 <elliott> catseye: it's not serious :p
07:04:51 <elliott> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/?cid=001.jpg can any sober person be this wise about stairs?
07:06:46 <catseye> "This installer for the Haskell Platform requires ghc to be installed first"
07:06:57 <catseye> thank you ghc for MISLEADING me, then
07:07:13 <elliott> AAAAAAAARHHH WHAT IF WE TIED A COMPUTER TO A ROPE
07:07:16 <catseye> Meredith and I will go on picnic
07:08:29 <catseye> WE WOULD BE BETTER FOR DOING IT
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07:09:59 <zzo38> Please tell me why is "*.net *.split" today?
07:10:49 <zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
07:10:51 <elliott> because there was a netsplit
07:10:58 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
07:11:08 <catseye> zzo38: our scientists have pondered that question and have told us about sunspot activity and spiders three times as big as they are, and squirrels four times as big as the spiders (those are some BIG squirrels.)
07:13:45 <zzo38> That would make twelve times in total. And which is the question having to do with sunspots?
07:13:56 <elliott> zzo38: it's to do with quatnum.
07:14:36 <catseye> Sunspot activity in increase, sends more quantum to our Earth.
07:15:12 <elliott> ""Illegal cargo" is the name commonly given to the cargo transported by the rigs in Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. The cargo is clearly of some importance, due to the Rigs' mission to transport it safely to the destination without police intervention."
07:15:21 <elliott> "What the illegal cargo actually consists of is a mystery, it was never revealed in the game. Initially it was believed that the cargo consisted of drugs, illegally being smuggled into Russia. This theory was quickly refused due to the fact that WINNERS don't D.A.R.E do drugs."
07:15:36 <elliott> ... "An opposite theory is that the cargo is itself copies of Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. The setting of the game is not clear, but it is often believed that it is set in a dystopian LOSER future where Big Rigs is outlawed."
07:17:26 <zzo38> What does "quatnum" means?
07:17:40 <elliott> imagine the anti-wave function defined by
07:17:45 <zzo38> catseye: Can you cross-compile it?
07:18:33 <elliott> w(x) = phi(x/ln(x^(3/4)) + sum{0 to inf} x^q_n(x)) / (pi*h*c)
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07:18:43 <elliott> where q is the particulating function
07:18:52 <elliott> and h is the quatnum constant
07:18:58 <elliott> then it's basically building on that theory.
07:19:16 <zzo38> Is h like Planck constant?
07:20:17 <elliott> it's the minimal value that an anti-wave can have at time t defined by t^q_n(x) = x^q_n(t+x)
07:20:32 <elliott> of course each one has a different minimum
07:20:33 <zzo38> And what does w and phi means here?
07:20:40 <elliott> but it turns out that they're all in a certain interval
07:20:43 <elliott> and it's just the midpoint
07:20:56 <elliott> zzo38: w is the anti-wave function defined
07:21:02 <elliott> phi is the crossing function
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07:55:18 <calamari> Gregor: I could be wrong, but I think these unreachable fb images are inside <script> tags.. although I did see some 1x1 gifs
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08:34:10 <catseye> @tell calamari Runnin' on NetBSD.
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08:48:59 <evincar> It's pretty quiet in here at this hour.
08:49:08 <evincar> Though you seem to be ever-present.
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08:50:45 <ais523> gah, I'd forgotten that Windows XP existed
08:50:50 <ais523> which is kind-of impressive now I thinhk about it
08:51:13 <evincar> There are those of us who still hold on to the relics of yore, even the newer ones.
08:51:20 <ais523> this is a ridiculous lecture room computer; the desktop's full of random Powerpoints and Word files
08:51:29 <ais523> the desktop background says "Please Check Monitor For Updated Password"
08:51:42 <ais523> and there's a permanent notification bubble up saying "You have files waiting to be written to the CD"
08:51:50 <evincar> Public computers are crufty beings.
08:52:07 <evincar> How do you find yourself in a lecture room?
08:53:48 <ais523> they're spending the entire day teacher training
08:53:58 <evincar> Oh, it's day where you are.
08:54:01 <ais523> which is frustrating enough as it is
08:54:06 <ais523> well, early morning for me
08:54:09 <ais523> I got here a bit early
08:54:27 <ais523> at least I can use this laptop for the purpose it was bought for now (snarky IRC comments during lectures)
08:54:47 <ais523> a bit of an unusual time to come to IRC
08:55:07 <evincar> I'm known for my interest in the esoteric.
08:55:33 <evincar> Anyway, I can't sleep and I'm mulling over a language idea.
08:55:46 <ais523> go for it, I need an insightful distraction
08:56:46 <evincar> Well, I got the bug when I read a forum post on gamedev.net wherein a guy rambled for two pages about a game idea that...well, it's not really an idea. It's sort of a meta-idea. It's so abstract and philosophical that it can't actually be implemented, and I'm fairly certain that it's only comprehensible to its author.
08:57:39 <evincar> In any case, I was thinking I'd like to make a language for which not only am I the only person who understands it, but I'm also the only person who *can* understand it. Unfortunately, I'm not so brilliant.
08:58:49 <evincar> Which means I have to go for an incomprehensible clusterfuck of esoteria rather than a shining monolith of genius.
08:59:34 <evincar> I'd like it to be elegant, though.
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09:05:33 <ais523> seems the wireless here is dodgy, too...
09:06:10 <fizzie> All our lecture room computers have the desktop completely full of presentations, too. One never knows what kind of hidden gems may be found there.
09:06:25 <evincar> So...need me to repeat anything?
09:06:27 <ais523> fizzie: one of our lecturers decided to look at one of them just for fun
09:06:30 <ais523> it was a paper about security
09:06:35 <ais523> evincar: I'll grab it from the logs
09:06:42 <ais523> anyway, it had a screenshot of a phishing dialog box
09:06:54 <ais523> and the lecturer looked at it, tried to click cancel, and nothing happened
09:07:00 <ais523> eventually realising it was an image
09:07:35 <ais523> evincar: heh, I like the concept
09:07:47 <ais523> I think I've gone one step further with Feather, inventing something that not even I understand
09:07:48 <fizzie> Back in pre-high school, switching the teacher's computer's desktop background to a screenshot of the desktop and hiding all the icons was quite a classic.
09:08:00 <ais523> fizzie: that's ingenious!
09:08:26 <fizzie> "Try rebooting it." "Oh, it's still broken, how strange."
09:08:39 <nooga> http://brlcad.org/wiki/Mged <-- this is like vi for 3d graphics
09:08:47 <evincar> ais523: The trouble is that elegance implies simplicity, but simplicity often implies comprehensibility.
09:09:12 <ais523> I suppose you could go down the Ursala route
09:09:46 <ais523> base everything on an abstraction that's so low-level that despite the lang's core itself being neat and simple in theory, you need a ridiculous amount of crufty abstractions on top of that to do anything useful
09:11:43 <ais523> nooga: that analogy's scary enough
09:12:06 <nooga> and it's developed by the US ARMY!
09:12:44 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD
09:20:49 <evincar> ais523: Took a bit of digging to find the home page, but I'm liking what I see. The syntax is a tad noisy, but the way data flows through the programs is obvious, and pleasing.
09:24:25 <ais523> heh, it's back up again?
09:24:41 <ais523> Ursala's in the category of "unintentional esolangs", along with things like BancSTAR, and arguably Perl but that's much less extreme
09:24:46 <evincar> I withdraw "a tad noisy" and substitute "like white noise, only not nearly as good-looking".
09:25:05 <ais523> it actually has two incompatible syntaxes used for different things
09:25:08 <evincar> (Tried to read a longer program.)
09:25:26 <ais523> the one that looks like alphanumeric white noise, and the one that looks more like a highish-level language
09:26:04 <ais523> hmm, let me quote the handout I've just been given
09:27:27 <ais523> "Our learning culture takes different forms in different disciplinary areas, each of which have their own distinct characters and traditions of learning. Central to our learning culture across all our disciplines at Birmingham, however, is enquiry-based learning. This approach to learning is intended to challenge and engage our students who will encounter it, in different guises, at different levels of their educational experience."
09:27:34 <ais523> anyone want to attempt to translate?
09:28:42 <evincar> People in different disciplines learn differently. Learning is based on questions. Questions can be challenging, and this is good.
09:29:03 <evincar> Aside: I approve of how the manual opens with "Concurrently while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may ormay not realize it is also themost irrelevant. --The Architect"
09:29:43 <evincar> (Ugh, copying from a poorly typeset PDF makes spaces subject to radioactive decay.)
09:31:31 <ais523> when I do it, it tends to add extra spaces between letters
09:32:34 <ais523> "A learner can only “compare” if s/he first “describes” both things that s/he is comparing."
09:32:49 <ais523> apart from the scare smartquotes, that's entirely intelligible, but still somehow seems entirely wrong
09:34:38 <ais523> it also manages to sneak "□riticiz" into what is otherwise a list of verbs
09:34:48 <evincar> I think it means that a comparison must be based on a metric, which is derived from a "description".
09:36:02 <evincar> Whose limit approaching infinity is tautological uselessness.
09:36:11 <ais523> the implication to me is that you must first completely understand something in order to be able to compare it to something else, especially given the context (which I can't be bothered to retype)
09:37:06 <evincar> Also political/grammatical correctness: "s/he" instead of singular "they".
09:37:48 <ais523> I'm fine with that; gender-neutral pronouns are such a mess that I'll accept anything vaguely plausible
09:37:50 <evincar> How do you pronounce s/he? Is it "he or she"? "sss-hee"?
09:38:36 <evincar> It's not really a mess. There's been a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun since the 13th century, and it's "they".
09:38:43 <ais523> s(neutral vowel), then about half a syllable break, then "he"
09:39:39 <evincar> Saying singular "they" is ungrammatical is like insisting we say "one" instead of "you" for general statements.
09:39:54 <ais523> well, I'm British, and the Royal Family still do that
09:40:00 <ais523> it's one of the clearest signs of being a royal, in fact
09:40:06 <ais523> and everyone would get mad at them if they didn't
09:40:28 <evincar> But no, prescriptivists love their I, you, he/she/it; we, you, they; one.
09:40:37 <fizzie> I like to write s?he and h(im|er) in suitably ridiculous contexts.
09:40:48 <ais523> the equivalent of English "one" is used all the time in other languages
09:40:51 <evincar> Bah, God save the Queen and fuck the Queen's English.
09:40:57 <ais523> like "on" in French and "man" in German
09:41:04 <evincar> Yeah, it gets a bit annoying in French.
09:41:31 <evincar> People use "on" as a substitute for any pronoun. It's valid, but doing it too much is lazy.
09:43:05 <ais523> missed point of the week: the person teaching this is trying to figure out why everyone's here, especially for no obvious reason in many cases
09:43:10 <ais523> she's somehow missed that her course is compulsory
09:43:56 <evincar> That's like kicking off one shoe and waiting indefinitely for the other shoe to drop.
09:45:10 <ais523> wow, this document actually uses the word "Ppt" to refer to computerized slides
09:45:30 <ais523> calling them "Powerpoints" I understand, especially for a nontechnical user
09:45:39 <ais523> but using the file extension, then capitalising it like a word?
09:45:39 <evincar> You're enjoying yourself, aren't you? :P
09:45:59 <ais523> managed to get through the entire introductions without mentioning what my name was
09:46:06 <fizzie> ais523: Is it pronounced letter by letter like an abbreviation or how?
09:46:12 <ais523> who knows, it's written
09:46:18 <evincar> It's pronounced as an unvoiced bilabial trill with rising intonation, followed by a pulmonic click.
09:46:46 <evincar> Halfway between blowing a raspberry and making the sound of a wine bottle popping.
09:47:34 <fizzie> Using the file extension is strange anyway; aren't people usually trying to hide it, as if ashamed?
09:47:50 <ais523> fizzie: nah, it's just that Windows does that by default in case it confuses people
09:48:00 <ais523> but all the nontechnical people I know are deadly scared of docx, etc
09:48:11 <ais523> so they take extra care to use the Office 97 file formats
09:48:26 <evincar> Hiding file extensions causes far more harm than good.
09:50:18 <fizzie> Doc X and the Powerpoints -- good name for villains in a show.
09:50:33 <fizzie> Though I guess the Powerpoints sound a bit too superheroy.
09:50:54 <fizzie> Maybe they could be good guys, too. Doc X is a bit ambiguous like that.
09:52:00 <evincar> Then there's the less popular Odie F. and the Impresses, if you're an OpenOffice fan.
09:52:18 <evincar> I'm going to go die in a hole for writing that, thanks.
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10:01:56 <evincar> Daw, everyone just sorta shut up. :(
10:02:12 <evincar> I blame ais523 and his shoddy wireless access.
10:05:23 <fizzie> I blame your "Odie F." bit.
10:07:09 <evincar> I HAVE BEEN AWAKE FOR MANY HOURS AND I AM SORRY
10:08:19 <fizzie> Actually, it might be just that he's actually having to do something at that thing he's in.
10:08:52 <evincar> Pah. Responsibilities are for squares.
10:15:23 <fizzie> Is there a corresponding word for non-squares? Circles?
10:16:52 <evincar> That reminds me: r=||csc theta|+|sec theta|-||csc theta|-|sec theta|||
10:17:28 <evincar> (Polar function for a square.)
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13:12:55 <ais523> <fizzie> Actually, it might be just that he's actually having to do something at that thing he's in. <-- correct guess, as it happens
13:13:01 <ais523> although the wireless was an issue too
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13:21:49 <Vorpal> In C. Am I right in thinking that (int)floor(x/12.0) should be the same as x/12, assuming that x is a positive integer?
13:22:07 <Vorpal> I'm trying to figure out some confusing code someone else wrote
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16:37:24 <cpressey> I wonder if you can use Enhanced CWEB to build an actual website.
16:37:43 <cpressey> I shall make a note to ask zzo38 next time I see him.
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16:48:51 <cpressey> <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD <-- that is one bitchen logo.
16:49:29 <elliott> 01:39:39 <evincar> Saying singular "they" is ungrammatical is like insisting we say "one" instead of "you" for general statements.
16:49:39 <elliott> Uh, a lot of people here use "one".
16:49:42 <elliott> 01:40:28 <evincar> But no, prescriptivists love their I, you, he/she/it; we, you, they; one.
16:49:46 <elliott> Preaching to the motherfucking choir.
16:52:15 <elliott> 08:37:09 <cpressey> I wonder!
16:52:15 <elliott> 08:37:24 <cpressey> I wonder if you can use Enhanced CWEB to build an actual website.
16:52:20 <elliott> It only does C code, so... no? :P
16:52:34 <elliott> That's his *other* system written entirely in TeX.
16:52:41 <elliott> Although I don't know if it does multiple files.
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16:55:05 <Gregor> elliott: Holy eff, BRL-CAD has been in active development for 25 years.
16:55:25 <elliott> holy shit i have two xchats open how did that happen
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16:55:38 <elliott> Gregor: I had a dream where you were an asshole!
16:56:36 <cpressey> yesweb, yeah that would make more sense.
16:58:11 <cpressey> as much sense as generating an entire website from a single source file could make, anyway
17:03:14 <cpressey> elliott: oh btw -- netcat -e could not run my bot correctly on NetBSD, either. I was wrong to blame Cygwin.
17:04:05 <elliott> cpressey: desktops suck so much
17:04:14 <cpressey> I used my homebrew netcatlet in python. But I'm left wondering wtf netcat -e wants (I know it worked under Ubuntu)
17:04:23 <cpressey> elliott: because they're not written in Java
17:04:24 <elliott> netcat -e can't do sh stuff
17:04:34 <elliott> so you need to create a wrapper if you want
17:04:47 <elliott> $ echo './myprog 1 2 3' >prog; chmod +x prog
17:05:01 <cpressey> not even nc -e 'lua foo.lua' ?
17:05:09 <cpressey> maybe that's how i did it previously. don't remember
17:05:17 <elliott> cpressey: can't do that, nope
17:05:24 <cpressey> wait, does a hashbang in a script count as sh stuff?
17:05:46 <cpressey> (have no idea how i was getting it to work before)
17:05:57 <cpressey> (maybe the ubuntu version is 'enhanced' har no probably not)
17:06:36 <elliott> cpressey: do you have any idea how hard it is to fit all the panel stuff into one panel?
17:06:41 <cpressey> Java penetration in desktop infrastructure (wms, etc) is almost nil
17:07:13 <elliott> cpressey: java's penetration *should* be nil./
17:07:21 <elliott> last i checked which was never
17:07:35 <elliott> Java -- CNI -- X Windowing System
17:07:35 <elliott> Java -- CNI -- X Window System (JCNIX) ... The AWT and image code, the Xlib toolkit and some of the Java2D pipeline classes has now been merged into the ...
17:07:39 <elliott> JCNIX is basically code that makes it possible to create graphical interfaces using GCJ on a platform supporting the X Window System.
17:07:39 <elliott> It started out as some simple experimenting with the CNI interface of gcj and Xlib. After a while, development veered into reimplementing significant chunks of the Java 1.3 API.
17:08:38 <cpressey> "Google: Letting you dredge up gunk you don't want to know about. It's what we do!"
17:08:39 <olsner> cpressey: I used something called "socat" when I wanted to make an ircbot
17:08:50 <elliott> olsner: socat is Yet Another Inferior Netcat Clone
17:09:01 <olsner> because I couldn't get hold of a netcat that had a working cat-through-program option
17:09:07 <cpressey> I couldn't get socat to work either, but I hardly tried
17:09:23 <elliott> olsner: it takes two seconds to compile nc yourself :p
17:09:34 <elliott> you have to add #include <resolv.h> to netcat.c on modern linux
17:09:41 <elliott> $ make -e nc XFLAGS='-DLINUX'
17:09:49 <elliott> (to avoid static linking which is a very silly idea with glibc)
17:09:56 <elliott> (otherwise it'd be make linux)
17:09:56 <olsner> well, the netcat.c of *which* netcat?
17:10:04 <elliott> olsner: the first, original, and only netcat
17:10:09 <elliott> archived at http://nc110.sourceforge.net/
17:10:32 <elliott> olsner: all others are clones by people too stupid to realise that a proliferation of programs with the exact same name is a terrible idea
17:11:10 <olsner> and it's sooo easy to find out which of these clones with the exact same name support the right option
17:11:25 <olsner> anyway, socat worked for me
17:11:46 <elliott> $ make -e nc XFLAGS='-DLINUX -DGAPING_SECURITY_HOLE'
17:11:48 <cpressey> can netcat even concatenate things?
17:12:06 <elliott> -DGAPING_SECURITY_HOLE is the thing that enables -e
17:12:19 <elliott> (why it's gaping: $ nc -l -p 12345 -e sh)
17:14:32 <elliott> <skizzhg> but since i don't have xfce [...]
17:16:15 <cpressey> No command 'xfce' found, did you mean: Command 'xfe' from package 'xfe' (universe) Command 'xpce' from package 'swi-prolog-x' (universe) Command 'xfte' from package 'fte-xwindow' (universe)
17:16:56 <elliott> (that's for, uh, i don't know what)
17:17:10 <cpressey> No command 'xkcd' found, did you mean: Command 'xmcd' from package 'xmcd' (universe)
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17:18:38 <olsner> does xkcd stand for anything?
17:18:57 <elliott> apart from Xtremely Kunty Crap Dickshitfuck
17:19:02 <elliott> ok that's a terrible backronym
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17:41:33 <elliott> cpressey: i totally reverted back to a one-panel system because i'm not hardcore enough
17:44:21 <cpressey> elliott: this is... your WM design?
17:44:34 <elliott> cpressey: no no this is just what i'm using right now
17:44:42 <elliott> don't be silly my wm design is platonically perfect
17:45:00 <cpressey> this is your desktop environment, then
17:45:42 <elliott> i prefer "my living insanity" but, yes..
17:49:26 <cpressey> there, added another virtual desktop. that'll bring some excitement to the party
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17:49:47 <elliott> cpressey: in my perfect-but-one-or-two WM design, there's an infinite number of virtual desktops!
17:49:51 <elliott> well: one. but it's infinitely big
17:51:00 <elliott> cpressey: The manual begins like this: "Your desktop," it says, "is big. Really big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindboggingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen ..." and so on.
17:53:36 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/ki20f.jpg please let this be real
17:55:17 <ais523> the whole ByteByteJump/BytePusher/ByteMover/BytePusherCore thing has just got even crazier
17:55:31 <ais523> with competing specifications on different pages, and what's almost a flamewar over what the spec should be
17:55:37 <elliott> ais523: but wait, i haven't cashed in on it yet!
17:55:39 <ais523> I don't understand it at all...
17:55:40 <elliott> except i'm going to use my own OISC
17:55:49 <elliott> because bytebytejump is totally ... uh
17:56:05 <elliott> [[Advantages compared to 24-bit ByteByteJump:]]
17:56:25 <cpressey> ais523: does this mean esowiki will finally have a "disputed" box and (ooh) maybe even a locked page?
17:56:43 <elliott> ais523: no but seriously, where's the flamewar
17:56:56 <elliott> "Vote: should BytePusher have a standard "system ROM"?"
17:57:00 <elliott> language design by vote: fail
17:57:10 <elliott> "Hmmm...This is starting to look too complicated! =/" --Javamannen
17:58:01 <ais523> wow, anyone who cares about American politics: http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/10/26/1428226/Voting-Machines-Selecting-Default-Candidates?from=rss
17:58:05 <ais523> if that's real, it's too stupid to believe
17:58:22 <elliott> ais523: it has become slightly ridiculous though, and i'd love to see him ordered to cut the bytepusher page down just to watch him squirm because i'm evil, but i see no flamewar
17:58:22 <ais523> cpressey: locking pages due to flamewars seems a bit ridiculous
17:58:29 <elliott> ais523: where is the flamewar?
17:58:32 <ais523> elliott: it's not really on individual pages now
17:58:37 <ais523> look at edit summaries in recent changes
17:58:49 <cpressey> video console design by vote: also fail
17:58:49 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . Talk:BytePushCore; 22:18 . . (+904) . . Zzo38 (Talk | contribs) (YOU SHOULD NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC)
17:58:53 <elliott> ais523: *that* wasn't a flame
17:59:01 <elliott> ais523: that was zzo38 taking off javamannen's statement in his previous message
17:59:03 <fizzie> "Voting machine" and "stupid" go together like... uh, like any two very well going-together things.
17:59:08 <elliott> ("I WILL NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC." three times after exasperating himself)
17:59:22 <elliott> ais523: other than that, i see absolutely nothing hostile
17:59:24 <cpressey> ais523: I was being a bit hyperbolic, of course
17:59:32 <elliott> and the "battle of the bytes" thing is between two specs from the same author
17:59:42 <ais523> oh, that's what I was talking about
17:59:47 <ais523> POVforking your own spec is pretty impressive
17:59:49 <elliott> ais523: like i told you minutes ago
17:59:52 <elliott> ais523: it isn't a povfork!
18:00:02 <elliott> ais523: it's just a variant designed to be better-implementable in hardware
18:00:11 <ais523> I'm still amused, though
18:00:18 <elliott> hmm, do electronic voting machines allow spoiling a ballot?
18:00:51 <ais523> yep, they have some sort of complex touchscreen writein
18:01:10 <elliott> i want to be able to tick all the candidate boxes!
18:01:18 <ais523> (the e-voting I use for elections within the University actually has a "spoil ballot" checkbox)
18:01:33 <elliott> ais523: give everyone a stylus pen thing that you can use to draw little crosses in boxes and it chooses that candidate, or press on the "vote" button, etc
18:01:40 <elliott> ais523: and make it just scribble anywhere else
18:01:43 <elliott> spoil a ballot: scribble randomly
18:01:56 <elliott> spoil ballot checkbox, lovely
18:01:56 <ais523> you know, that Slashdot story is so stupid I'm going to quote it
18:02:00 <elliott> rigidly organised dissent!
18:02:11 <ais523> "Some voters in Las Vegas have noticed that Democrat Harry Reid's name is checked by default on their electronic voting machines. By way of explanation, the Clark County Registrar says that when voters choose English instead of Spanish, Reid's Republican opponent, Sharron Angle, has her name checked by default."
18:02:29 <ais523> well, the subject of the story, I mean
18:02:33 <ais523> (or the story itself, if it's a lie)
18:02:52 <elliott> ais523: aww, it's a bug then
18:03:07 <elliott> ais523: i was hoping it, like, always selected a single republican
18:03:26 <fizzie> In other news, fungot is finally twittering again. It had been dead since the end of August, when Twitter went all oauthy.
18:03:26 <fungot> fizzie: emacs can indent and edit on sexprs correctly, but you can't read in dreams. so unless you're using all objects that are in fnord/ foof-loop.scm; the development code will be shared
18:03:39 <ais523> elliott: it sounds to me like a misguided attempt at fairness rather than a bug
18:03:54 <ais523> bonus points if it turns out that a vote is recorded backwards in a particular langauge
18:03:57 <elliott> ais523: not even diebold are that stupid surely
18:04:02 <elliott> SRY, *PREMIER ELECTION SYSTEMS
18:04:12 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, not being able to read in dreams is also one of my Emacs pet peeves.
18:04:12 <fungot> fizzie: got my dead keys back".
18:04:35 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> fizzie: got my dead keys back".
18:04:36 <fungot> elliott: fiscolin:/prog/ misc/ hsfunge/ that your final answer?) mmmm.....really?
18:04:50 <elliott> fizzie's second name is COLIN
18:05:05 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Xe-Logo.svg <-- similarity to the X11 logo, discuss
18:05:05 <ais523> elliott: have you read the research paper where they analysed voting machines?
18:05:19 <elliott> ais523: no and i don't want to, too depressing
18:05:25 <ais523> after reading that, you can believe that Diebold (or other voting machine manufacturers) could do anything
18:05:36 <elliott> *PREMIER ELECTION SOLUTIONS
18:05:56 <Gregor> WebSplat: Undeniably the greatest piece of software ever written?
18:06:06 <elliott> "Self-Building Chips - As Easy As Microwave Meals"
18:06:07 <elliott> "Canadian researchers have found a way to speed up self-assembling chips — by using microwaves instead of traditional ovens."
18:06:09 <elliott> for a wonderful, wonderful second
18:06:09 <fizzie> Mwahaha, two of his latest tweets must be among the best ones.
18:06:12 <fizzie> "About NetHack: of the ravenous bugblatter beast of extraordinary swiftness, the lord spake unto moses, saying, again, ask any nymph."
18:06:15 <elliott> i thought they meant chips as in
18:06:20 <ais523> my favourite exploit was the one where they pointed a PDA at the voting machine's infrared port, causing a buffer overflow, dumping corrupt data into its output that caused another buffer overflow, eventually overwriting the central voting server that counted the votes for the entire county/state with arbitrary code
18:06:21 <fizzie> "About IRC: by inspiration of god, can i release it with mit scheme"
18:06:29 <elliott> and i glee'd at the idea of a self-assembling chip
18:09:52 <elliott> "Ray Ozzie's Departing Memo a Warning To Microsoft" oh come on, i tried to read that
18:09:57 <elliott> it was barely even english
18:12:13 <fungot> elliott: forth isn't concatenative, wasn't it?
18:12:29 <fizzie> I think the verb is "tworts", isn't it? Well, anyway.
18:12:31 <Gregor> elliott, fizzie: Wow. Where?
18:12:35 <fizzie> http://twitter.com/fungot
18:12:35 <fungot> fizzie: i'm using goto mainly as a nice ' skip intro' button.) fnord. 0) ' 0) ' hi bye))
18:13:10 <elliott> fungot stands for FUNGe bOT?
18:13:11 <fungot> elliott: i wouldn't want to upset any srfi editors or anything.
18:13:14 <elliott> well, with -98 or whatever
18:13:38 <fizzie> That's where I think I got the name from. Why, what'd you think it stood for?
18:14:01 <elliott> i thought it was just a name >_>
18:14:35 <elliott> I like how not at all fizzie uses Twitter.
18:14:59 <fizzie> I have my own Twitter account, and I've twordled once to test it.
18:15:32 <elliott> It's just, y'know, amusing. :p
18:17:13 <Gregor> Might Facebook consider it defamation of character that the Facebook logo is now dancing on my corpse?
18:17:37 <Gregor> Apparently not *shrugs*
18:22:27 <elliott> Stupid Things From the Arch Linux Community, Edition #1:
18:22:54 <elliott> "[question about eye strain with font rendering on Linux vs. Windows from someone with less-than-ideal sight]"
18:23:01 <elliott> Reply: "Linux is just an inferior OS when it comes to usability :P"
18:23:16 <elliott> It's meant to be painful! LIVE WITH IT
18:29:26 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, I realised something.
18:29:31 <elliott> Gregor: You have the Microsoft fonts now, yeah?
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18:30:10 <elliott> Gregor: If you set the Chrome settings to Times New Roman 16 / Arial 16 / Courier New 13, we can get what HavenWorks is meant to look like, on a Windows system.
18:30:18 <elliott> With the correct column widths! Hooray! :p
18:32:18 <elliott> Gregor: BACK INTTA THE FRAY (with correct settings this time)
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18:34:19 <elliott> Gregor: 141@129D because of an enemy STANDING ON SOME TEXT THAT JUST HAPPENS TO BE ITALIC X_X
18:35:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't believe you ever were.
18:35:36 <elliott> 800 was got before you got 600.
18:35:58 <elliott> Because you used an obnoxious diaeresis? :p
18:37:39 <elliott> When you started using it every single word >_<
18:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I use it on "noöne", and that's basically it as far as normal conversation goes.
18:49:55 <elliott> Gregor: My strategy works well.
18:52:23 <elliott> Gregor: 561@1360. I've completed every column up to "A-Z News Subjects" in the second column.
18:52:40 <Gregor> elliott: Your strategy is good, I agree :P
18:52:46 <Gregor> elliott: But I'm doing, y'know, WORK right now.
18:52:55 <elliott> Gregor: I DISAGREE WITH YOUR ASSERTION THAT YOU'RE DOING WORK
18:55:01 <elliott> 636@1628D will to live lost
18:58:53 <pikhq> It's so very nice to be able to just install things without the compiler going.
18:59:34 <elliott> pikhq: I have decided to leave Grey Mist as it is.
19:00:58 <elliott> pikhq: But I have changed the name of the GTK theme to "Grey Mist", so if you want 1.0, rename your directory in ~/.themes, replace .gtkrc with the whitespace-adjusted-and-renamed http://sprunge.us/KIEH, and change theme preference to the new name :P
19:01:24 <elliott> ais523: hmm, you know how you can chop a few bits off an SHA-1 hash and it hardly matters?
19:01:44 <elliott> ais523: is there a rule of thumb for how many you can chop off vs. different "bands" of accuracy?
19:05:21 <fizzie> If it's a perfect hash, I would assume you can just take any n bits to get a n-bit hash.
19:05:47 <elliott> fizzie: I swear there was something cleverer for SHA-1.
19:05:58 <fizzie> I mean, they've even standardized SHA-224 and SHA-384, which are just truncated versions of SHA-256 and SHA-512.
19:06:23 <elliott> fizzie: What I was thinking about was a pastebin where the URL is just pastebin/hash-of-text.
19:07:56 <olsner> match the oldest submission whose hash starts with the given prefix?
19:15:01 <elliott> olsner: i see what you mean
19:15:15 <elliott> i sorta hate services whose urls grow over time :)
19:17:51 <fizzie> The alternative is services with a fixed number of potential things in its lifetime, though! Then you're going to have to move to elliottpastev6 URLs with more bits.
19:20:26 <elliott> fizzie: All approximately 14615016400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 pastes.
19:21:39 <olsner> 640 000 pastes should be enough for anyone!
19:21:45 <elliott> fizzie: To be more exact (but still approximate because of collisions and whatnot), 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976 pastes.
19:22:09 * Zuu steals one of olsner's pastes
19:22:11 <elliott> fizzie: Of course that's if I use the full hash, which is unlikely. :p
19:22:17 <elliott> fizzie: Well, that's SHA-1.
19:22:30 <olsner> (that is: don't make the mistake of assuming that 640 000 pastes should be enough for anyone!)
19:22:49 <Zuu> What are you guys even talking about?
19:22:51 <fizzie> elliott: So it is. Though 14615016400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 >> 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976.
19:23:11 <fizzie> (And no, that's not a right shift.)
19:23:12 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, well, I coerced Python into giving me a non-scientific form of it badly.
19:23:18 <elliott> I moved the decimal place manually and incremented the exponent and uh I'm fg.
19:23:30 <elliott> Zuu: A pastebin site that uses the hash of the text to provide the URL.
19:24:04 <Zuu> and you're discussing what hashing algo to use?
19:24:20 <elliott> nope, just the practicality of it
19:24:59 <elliott> www.beautyoftheweb.co.uk Download Internet Explorer 9 Experience the Web at It's Fullest.
19:25:24 <elliott> "As amazing as the web is, it's potential is immeasurably greater"
19:25:43 <olsner> what git does is just go "oops, there are duplicate prefixes, all your hashes are ambiguous now"
19:26:00 <Zuu> well, the 'avoiding long urls' part is just about encoding it in a suitable base, with the alphabet of characters that is allowed in an url
19:26:00 <elliott> olsner: how long are git's prefixes?
19:26:13 <elliott> Zuu: also, urls that every client will parse as a single one properly and aren't hideous...
19:26:16 <elliott> also, that still may not be long enough
19:26:20 <olsner> configurable, but the default is 8 hex-digits iirc
19:27:25 <olsner> and it will always give you a longer prefix if it would be ambiguous among the hashes present in your local repository
19:27:39 <fizzie> Wasn't it 7? Well, maybe it's 8, I just thought it was some odd number.
19:28:23 <olsner> maybe it was, does it matter?
19:30:21 <elliott> F317NzJHh3BQmRaWGC6MkbGuhao
19:31:55 <elliott> Even an 80-bit hash is a bit long; 87Iyzibyud8UZ3.
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19:35:35 <fizzie> No, it's 80 bits long.
19:38:01 <pikhq> elliott: You can probably go up to a few kilobytes of URL.
19:38:13 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, thus defeating the point of a pastebin entirely.
19:38:22 <elliott> pikhq: iirc there's a limit of about 512 anyway in something
19:38:30 <elliott> pikhq: But point is, I don't want a stupidly long URI :P
19:38:32 <fizzie> In IRC, for example. :p
19:38:57 <fizzie> Ooh, ooh, how about a pastebin where *the actual text is in the URL*? You could even make the encoding so that it's as readable as possible directly there!
19:39:27 <pikhq> fizzie: We call that the data URI scheme.
19:39:29 <elliott> fizzie: We could eliminate the need for a server! It'd be totally distributed, immutable and permanent!
19:39:32 <elliott> fizzie: We could -- fuck you pikhq
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19:40:17 <elliott> http://somepb/fbX9knm_Ugc1NbSC_5(0oW8hZ1
19:40:23 <elliott> http://somepb/fbX9knm_Ugc1NbSC_5)0oW8hZ1
19:40:36 <elliott> http://somepb/0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ-_.!~*'
19:41:20 <elliott> http://pb/0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ-_.!~*\';:@&=+$,'
19:41:41 <elliott> fizzie: Check out my 1337 hax0r code at http://somepb/=yo6ej@IdMN&c!
19:43:20 <elliott> fizzie: When prefixing SHA-1, you should right shift, right?
19:44:48 <pikhq> elliott: Now just get a country TLD to run your software! :P
19:45:10 <elliott> pikhq: How worthwhile do you think a 60-bit hash is?
19:45:21 <elliott> Theoretically, that's 1152921504606846976 pastes.
19:45:31 <elliott> And the URLs are nice and short:
19:45:33 <cpressey> i still by habit put a space after a URL if it's the last thing in parentheses -- i formed this back when mail clients weren't that smart about where URLs should stop
19:45:45 <elliott> cpressey: smartness breaks now because of wikipedia
19:45:51 <elliott> Foo_(programming_language)
19:46:25 <Vorpal> elliott, gave up on minix?
19:46:35 <cpressey> omg -- i do hope there isn't a notable programming language called Foo
19:46:36 <pikhq> Didn't realise that ( and ) were valid in URIs.
19:47:17 <cpressey> no -- but there is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxi_Programming_Language
19:47:23 <Vorpal> <cpressey> i still by habit put a space after a URL if it's the last thing in parentheses -- i formed this back when mail clients weren't that smart about where URLs should stop <-- mine can get a bit confused if the URL is followed by a comma or semi-colon
19:47:39 <elliott> pikhq: http://utls.st/s4hnvwQAFD
19:47:41 <cpressey> Vorpal: there I put spaces too
19:47:55 <pikhq> Ah, they're reserved characters. It's only sometimes valid.
19:48:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is valid sometimes? I thought firefox "secretly" url encoded them
19:48:26 <Vorpal> but showed the non-encoded one
19:48:32 <Vorpal> same for some other browsers
19:49:01 <Vorpal> anyway, my irc client thinks that ( ends a url it seems
19:49:07 <Vorpal> should change that perhaps
19:49:11 <cpressey> Fuxi's specification is written in Chinese.
19:49:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Being a reserved character, it only needs to be percent-encoded when it has semantics in the URI scheme.
19:49:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, and when does it have such semantics?
19:49:34 <elliott> pikhq: it's valid in HTTP urls though
19:49:38 <pikhq> Depends. Pretty sure it doesn't in HTTP.
19:49:45 <elliott> pikhq: as are all of the reserved characters but ? and /
19:50:02 <elliott> although that isn't even in the reserved list
19:50:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume % is not a reserved char then, but some other special class?
19:50:16 <elliott> pikhq: if it's not ? or / and it's in either the reserved or unreserved characters of URIs, it's valid in an http path component
19:51:06 <pikhq> elliott: In an HTTP URI path component. The set of valid characters is larger for IRIs.
19:51:42 <elliott> although if someone made like
19:52:12 <pikhq> http://例.テスト/ should damned well be valid. :P
19:52:32 <pikhq> And of course it is.
19:52:33 <ais523> money-saving idea for US elections: just have "write-in" as an extra option on the ballot, no need to write an actual name
19:52:42 <ais523> if it actually wins, you can have another round to see who people actually wrote in
19:52:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about the TLD there?
19:52:49 <ais523> but may as well evaluate lazily
19:52:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: テスト is currently a valid TLD.
19:53:29 <Vorpal> ais523, does that save much money? You could do it lazy when counting the votes while still letting people write the name there?
19:53:35 <elliott> pikhq: is it "test" in kana?
19:53:36 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, the domain is http://例え.テスト/
19:53:38 <elliott> iirc that's what the others were
19:53:45 <elliott> pikhq: love how they couldn't even put, like
19:53:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it an alias for a normal tld?
19:54:01 <pikhq> elliott: It's "test" in the language in question.
19:54:05 <elliott> Vorpal: it's a test TLD added by ICANN
19:54:11 <elliott> Vorpal: to test new internationalised TLDs
19:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: there's a bunch of them in various languages, all "test"
19:54:19 <elliott> with just their test domain
19:54:31 <ais523> I wonder how many browsers will write out the whole xn-- stuff?
19:54:32 <pikhq> All with http://example.test/ translated.
19:54:42 <Vorpal> elliott, so they are planning to roll out this as aliases for the traditional ccTLDs or such?
19:54:45 <elliott> ais523: mine's sane enough not to
19:54:46 <Vorpal> or as completely separate ones
19:54:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Not alias. New TLD, I think.
19:54:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: They are already rolling out new ccTLDs.
19:55:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Because the rule will be: Your domain has to be in their script.
19:55:13 <elliott> If the TLD is in the Japanese alphabets, the domain has to be.
19:55:19 <Vorpal> elliott, sure is tricky to type
19:55:22 <ais523> (also, does it work backwards, as in, can you register a name that looks like UTF-5, and have browsers translate it into Unicode?)
19:55:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Not for Japanese people.
19:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Or for people who can read Japanese anyway, really.
19:55:46 <elliott> It's likely they'll have input set up.
19:55:57 <elliott> ais523: that's how it works
19:56:04 <elliott> ais523: you register it in punycode, that's all there is to it
19:56:12 <elliott> ais523: and then link it to people with unicode or punycode
19:56:19 <elliott> punycode never gets translated back, I think, for security
19:56:22 <ais523> elliott: I mean, in .com or something
19:56:31 <elliott> but unicode deemed to be safe -- e.g. no cryllic "a" and the like -- is displayed
19:56:32 <ais523> I was thinking that it seemed like a phishing loophole
19:56:36 <elliott> ais523: that's done already
19:56:44 <elliott> ais523: it's already been used to demonstrate how it could be used for phishing
19:56:48 <elliott> ais523: you're like three years behind here :)
19:56:49 <pikhq> The ones currently allocated are: .中国 .中國 .مصر .香港 .ایران .الاردن .فلسطين .рф .السعودية .ලංකා .இலங்கை .台湾 .台灣 .ไทย .تونس .امارات .
19:56:52 <elliott> ais523: unicode domain names already exist
19:56:57 <Vorpal> elliott, two questions 1) how does this interact with that han unification in unicode when the browser is supposed to try to show the tld in the address bar? 2) so japan and so on get two tlds? how unfair
19:57:08 <ais523> why is getting multiple TLDs unfair?
19:57:19 <ais523> it's not like they're IPv4 addresses..
19:57:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: The PRC and ROC have 3.
19:57:28 <elliott> han unification -- people will have the right fonts installed and only the right fonts, if you visit both kinds you're fucked i guess; browsers could be clever and change font depending on TLD
19:57:34 <Vorpal> of course US has a lot
19:58:07 <pikhq> elliott: The actually *unified* Han glyphs are just obvious glyph variants anyways.
19:58:23 <pikhq> elliott: So it doesn't matter *too* much if they get rendered using a different country's preferred variant.
19:58:45 <Vorpal> it seems more reasonable to make the idn tlds aliases for the normal ones to me.
19:59:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: That would make them have to invent TLD aliases.
19:59:34 <elliott> pikhq: Japanese font pr0n: http://imgur.com/fcHiq.png. This time, no subpixel rendering, because Debian's freetype/fontconfig/etc. suck at it. :P
19:59:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... point both NS records at the same thingy or something?
19:59:41 <pikhq> Oh, and Sri Lanka also has two different TLDs...
20:00:00 <pikhq> (they have multiple national languages)
20:00:24 <pikhq> elliott: That is astoundingly reasonable rendering.
20:00:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, for normal domains, at least in Sweden, IDN domains are almost always sold both as IDN and non-IDN. As in "åäö.se" would also include "aao.se"
20:00:44 <Vorpal> I'm not sure if you can even buy just the IDN one
20:01:03 <Vorpal> it wasn't possible when they were new at least. Not sure if that changed since then.
20:01:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Makes a bit more sense when you're just omitting diacritics.
20:01:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, true, would be hard for japan
20:01:19 <elliott> pikhq: ASTOUNDINGLY REASONABLE
20:01:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Though IDNs haven't really taken off much in Japan; more commonly, they just use ASCII.
20:01:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Often English, as well.
20:02:00 <pikhq> And even more often Engrish.
20:02:02 <cpressey> pikhq: So Canada should get two different TLDs, because it has two official languages.
20:02:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, I can't remember seeing any Swedish IDNs in actual practical use here
20:02:11 <cpressey> Same script, more or less, but hey.
20:02:17 <pikhq> cpressey: If they used different scripts, sure.
20:02:26 <pikhq> cpressey: .ca and .カナダ
20:02:44 <elliott> "åäö" <-- this is why swedish sucks
20:03:08 <pikhq> cpressey: The ASCII TLDs are assigned based on country codes.
20:03:09 <elliott> cpressey: what do french-speaking canadians call their country?
20:03:16 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, you can get that rendering easily.
20:03:57 <cpressey> It's like an east-coast native word, anyway
20:04:07 <elliott> pikhq: First, install the Takao fonts. Then uninstall all other Japanese fonts. Settings -> Appearance -> Fonts. Enable anti-aliasing (it may look unchecked but actually is; just uncheck and recheck it in this case). Hinting: Slight. Sub-pixel order: None (you can use RGB, but the fringing is awful).
20:04:34 <elliott> Everything looks red. Or sometimes blue.
20:04:37 <pikhq> cpressey: BTW, there are actually language-specific TLDs.
20:04:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, which sometimes lead to funny results. Such as "lanstrafiken.se" (run the country side buses and some of the city buses in large parts of south Sweden). Which literally translates to "[the] lance traffic". While the proper "länstrafiken" would translate to "[the] county traffic", where "county" is a lossy translation.
20:04:45 <cpressey> "The name Canada comes from a St. Lawrence Iroquoian word, kanata, meaning "village" or "settlement"."
20:04:53 <cpressey> also, wikipedia's CSS is now stupid for me for some reason.
20:05:20 <cpressey> elliott: hovering over a link makes it white on a white background!
20:05:50 <cpressey> something broke. don't know what. don't really care
20:05:52 <elliott> cpressey: that's just a midori "what"
20:06:04 <pikhq> Lessee... .cat. For sites in the Catalan language.
20:06:23 <pikhq> Why Catalan? Who knows!
20:07:05 <cpressey> elliott: It's FF. Also I think it was the "special message from mr. wikipedia" banner doing crazy things to the rest of the page.
20:07:09 <elliott> pikhq: And here's Japanese text in OS X: http://www.wap.org/journal/dictionary/4-dict-japanese.jpg Horrible JPEG distortion, but still.
20:07:18 <elliott> cpressey: psht you are still using the silly language
20:07:57 <cpressey> I'm at work... I work at a place that makes public-facing web sites... I kind of sort of need to use Firefox.
20:08:19 <cpressey> Oh yeah, Firefox is just HELL to use.
20:08:33 <elliott> pikhq: Oh! Here's an undistorted one: http://files.streetsmartlanguagelearning.com/files/mac_dict_window.png
20:08:54 <elliott> pikhq: Also includes small text.
20:08:56 <ais523> elliott: explanation of the voting machine bug, is apparently that there's a "select your language" menu, and the default selection on the next screen is whatever has the same position as what was selected on the previous screen
20:08:59 <fizzie> I don't know why, but this immediately made me think of "do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball": http://zem.fi/~fis/do_not_taunt_the_app_store_badge.png
20:09:26 <pikhq> elliott: That's somewhat annoying.
20:09:43 <pikhq> elliott: Mincho font on screen?
20:09:46 <fizzie> ais523: If it automagically moves to the next screen after the language selection, is it sure that the "default selection" isn't just the touchscreen registering two touches?
20:09:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: Oh! Here's an undistorted one: http://files.streetsmartlanguagelearning.com/files/mac_dict_window.png <-- I see the colour bleed in that one. It might look great on macs but definitely not on my monitor
20:09:49 <elliott> pikhq: If it's rendered in an ornate script, that's probably intentional; Dictionary uses a fancy-pants font for English too.
20:10:11 <elliott> pikhq: Besides, it's sub-pixelled enough that it looks fine, at least to my eyes.
20:10:15 <pikhq> elliott: And the Gothic font is all bold-like!
20:10:26 <pikhq> Which is, ah, really hard to read.
20:10:38 <elliott> pikhq: All text on OS X looks bold to people used to other OSes :P Note that the *colour profile* is different.
20:10:54 <elliott> pikhq: On Apple displays, everything looks a lot less heavy than it does when screenshots are viewed on standard RGB displays.
20:11:07 <pikhq> elliott: The stroke width makes it hard to read.
20:11:24 <elliott> pikhq: In my experience, strokes look a *lot* wider in screenshots than on an actual Mac. :p
20:12:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: On Apple displays, everything looks a lot less heavy than it does when screenshots are viewed on standard RGB displays. <-- how comes?
20:12:29 <Vorpal> I mean, not all their displays are super-high-dpi
20:12:32 * elliott waits for Vorpal to use his evidently non-existent one-line scrollback
20:12:36 <pikhq> elliott: Here on my system, each and every stroke of most characters is absolutely distinct.
20:12:56 <pikhq> There *is* no blurriness.
20:12:59 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, the colour profile, right
20:13:07 <pikhq> It's like using a well-done bitmap font, but with antialiasing.
20:13:10 <elliott> pikhq: And? There's no bluriness when actually using a Mac, either.
20:13:17 <elliott> As I said. Colour profile + DPI.
20:13:41 <Vorpal> elliott, are they set for a different gamma or something?
20:13:56 <elliott> 10.6 made them use standard gamma
20:14:05 <Vorpal> elliott, so the font look changed?
20:14:07 <elliott> not everyone was happy about that :)
20:14:16 <elliott> Vorpal: well, yes, but it still isn't the standard colour profile afaik
20:14:17 <pikhq> elliott: Solidly grey chunks are *not* going to just become perfectly clear lines magically.
20:14:21 <Vorpal> anyway, presumably you could change it if you wanted
20:14:34 <Vorpal> elliott, err, the stancard colour profile is not having one :P
20:14:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean sRGB or whatever.
20:15:01 <elliott> pikhq: It's like demanding all English text be in Century Gothic because the strokes are really clear.
20:15:17 <elliott> Turns out Century Gothic usually distracts from the content because it's so sparse.
20:15:37 <pikhq> elliott: Believe me, the clarity of strokes makes it significantly easier to read on low-DPI displays.
20:15:53 <elliott> pikhq: They don't sell Macs with low-DPI displays. :P
20:16:05 <elliott> I'm not saying text in OS X looks good on anything else but an Apple display, because it doesn't.
20:16:09 <pikhq> Compared with print?
20:16:12 <elliott> Or on any OS not set to the same colour profile.
20:16:19 <elliott> pikhq: No -- but still, high DPI.
20:16:29 <pikhq> Seriously, you need a decent *printer* for your typical mincho font to come out easily readable.
20:16:33 <Vorpal> elliott, what apart from the gamma differs?
20:16:39 <elliott> pikhq: You do realise it only uses that font in Dictionary?
20:16:49 <pikhq> elliott: Better example, then?
20:16:53 <elliott> Dictionary tries to look as much like a fancy olde dictionary in its typography as possible. :P
20:17:03 <elliott> pikhq: Trying to find one.
20:17:12 <elliott> Midori loves freezing right now.
20:17:26 <cpressey> The example open-source projects written in Fuxi are all archived in .rar format.
20:17:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, I wonder how unreadable Japanese text would be with a dot matrix printer
20:17:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Not, if you used a ... dot font, I suppose.
20:17:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: On dot matrix printers, you would use just katakana.
20:18:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Probably half-width katakana, because that's all that will be supported on such old systems.
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20:23:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do they have so many different "alphabets"
20:23:08 <pikhq> So, 値段ー３万円 would come out as: ﾈﾀﾞﾝｰ３ﾏﾝｴﾝ
20:23:08 <cpressey> It seems like it's like C# with bits of Erlang and Prolog strewn about...
20:23:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: Kanji was first used to write Japanese, with some characters used for semantic value and some for phonetic value.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Then came parallel evolution: some female writers felt that this was too hard for the characters used for phonetic value, and so they started to write those characters using a highly stylised form of grass script.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Grass script being a hard-to-read Chinese phonetic style.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: This came to be known as "hiragana".
20:23:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, the latin script changed during the ages to. iirc Å and Ä changed a lot since medieval times for example
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20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Meanwhile, some Buddhist monks felt this was too hard for the characters used for phonetic value, and so they started to only write some strokes of those kanji.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: This came to be known as "katakana".
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: For a long time, katakana + kanji was the normal script, with just hiragana used in some contexts (most notably poetry).
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Then, with Western contact came a lot of loan words. They started to use katakana for the loan words and hiragana for the native words.
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20:23:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: This practice became formalised in the 50s.
20:23:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's it.
20:23:10 <elliott> http://images.appleinsider.com/leopard-preview-071004-2.png typical japanese in the UI
20:23:10 <elliott> http://www.macobserver.com/article/2000/09/jap2.jpg strange gothic font for an email :)
20:23:13 <elliott> http://xserve.mactalk.com.au/albums/Currawong/phonetic_guide.png ridiculously bold phonetic stuff
20:23:25 <elliott> http://www.guidetojapanese.org/images/osx_ime.png strangely-bold IME -- i think some colour stuff went wrong in the screenshot or something
20:23:29 <pikhq> elliott: Not bad, but the one used here is clearer. :)
20:23:29 <elliott> the above definitely isn't representative :P
20:23:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... okay, seems strange though. It seems strange that one didn't displace the others
20:24:23 <elliott> pikhq: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Safari_5.0_on_Macintosh.png Full screenshot, including Japanese UI and Japanese web page.
20:24:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, I mean, just look at fraktur/antiqua in Europe. In the end one of them lost.
20:24:34 <elliott> pikhq: Again, looks good only on a display of similar PPI and colour profile. :p
20:25:09 <elliott> pikhq: Since it's a laptop, it'd be even higher ppi than usual actually...
20:25:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, wait, not quite accurate. Hiragana was used for most *literature*, and katakana was used for most other things.
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20:25:26 <Vorpal> I mean, you don't see fraktur typefaces these days unless someone tried to make a point by using such a typeface
20:25:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: And then linguistic reform in the 50s changed the standard to default to hiragana and katakana for loanwords.
20:27:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: And it's not quite like using Fraktur vs. Antiqua. A bit more akin to using Cryllic vs. Latin (as in Serbian), except with a more one-to-one mapping between them.
20:28:05 <pikhq> (aside from the actual glyph forms, the rules for writing hiragana and katakana are *precisely* the same.)
20:28:15 <elliott> pikhq: Sheesh, don't even comment :P
20:28:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, out of interest, what is the average WPM rate for English and Japanese (non-romanisation that is)?
20:29:12 <elliott> Vorpal: typing japanese IS romanisation
20:29:15 <elliott> that's basically what the IME does
20:29:20 <elliott> you type romaji and it becomes kanji magically
20:29:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Most people write romanisation and then select the write kanji or kana to use.
20:29:42 <elliott> i think it's actually that they have kana on their keyboard
20:29:48 <elliott> pikhq: in japan don't they use kana keyboards?
20:29:53 <elliott> and then that gets kanjified
20:29:55 <evincar> You can use a kana keyboard.
20:30:02 <pikhq> They *have* kana on their keyboard, but most people don't type that way.
20:30:16 <Vorpal> what is the WPM for writing by hand on paper for Japanese vs. English then
20:30:20 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, how much time is spent selecting the right kanji? :)
20:30:25 <elliott> Vorpal: "word" is rather vague i think...
20:30:32 <pikhq> elliott: Quite a bit.
20:30:49 <elliott> pikhq: sounds like a pain, but then i guess a single kanji says a lot more
20:30:51 <evincar> elliott: 'word' isn't particularly vague. They're just not whitespace-delimited.
20:30:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well I didn't use "letter" because "word" has a linguistic meaning
20:31:02 <pikhq> elliott: For common things, it's pretty easy, but for rare ones it can be annoying.
20:31:28 <pikhq> elliott: Also, fortunately most IMEs are learning, so they adjust to your writing style, making it easier over time.
20:31:29 <Vorpal> and surely Japanese has "sentences" consisting of multiple "words"?
20:31:29 <evincar> I'm happy using simplified characters when writing Chinese. ^_^
20:31:54 <pikhq> evincar: I just write in semicursive script. All problems solved!
20:32:09 <Vorpal> evincar, thus asking for WPM rate when writing English and when writing Japanese on paper shouldn't be completely impossible.
20:32:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: The answer is "it depends".
20:32:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, the time or it being a sensible concept?
20:32:54 <elliott> I think Japanese words tend to carry a lot more meaning than a single English word, though, don't they?
20:32:59 <elliott> In that case, comparing WPM would be meaningless.
20:33:03 <elliott> At least without a scaling factor.
20:33:18 <pikhq> elliott: *Can*, don't necessarily.
20:33:32 <elliott> pikhq: In typical usage? :P
20:33:48 <pikhq> elliott: It's a bit more that Japanese words are more compact on the page, simply because each morpheme is written in less space.
20:33:53 <Vorpal> elliott, what about this: write some text in both languages while measuring time using a stopwatch. Then read both texts aloud, count number of words. Divide this count with the result from the timing.
20:34:16 <elliott> Pretty sure the filthy japs speak quicker than we do :p
20:34:21 <pikhq> elliott: "Semiconductor", for instance, is "半導体"
20:34:26 <elliott> at least if the interwebs is anything to go by
20:34:30 <Vorpal> elliott, quicker than a CNN news anchor?
20:34:44 <evincar> elliott: People have the same basic average speaking rate regardless of language.
20:34:51 <evincar> I read a study on that a while back, I'm sure.
20:34:52 <elliott> evincar: I'm talking about cultures.
20:35:05 <elliott> There *is* variation between them, I distinctly recall a data set.
20:35:05 <evincar> Oh, well, the Spanish talk fast. :P
20:35:23 <pikhq> elliott: Japanese merely appears to be spoken a bit more quickly because there's not as much variation in the speaking rate.
20:35:38 <evincar> Yeah, moraic timing is excellent.
20:35:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, English is rather verbose. I often find that on the average, writing the same information in Swedish takes less space.
20:36:07 <elliott> While we're on about languages, this is a perfect time to this slab of pure awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUi6UEQh00
20:36:20 <pikhq> elliott: Each mora is pronounced with about the same timing as each other one, unlike English where the mora timing can change quite dramatically.
20:36:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, semiconductor = halvledare for example
20:36:33 <elliott> (Points to whoever can figure it out.)
20:36:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Japanese is also often rather verbose, though this is a function of *politeness* rather than being inherent.
20:36:57 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUi6UEQh00 :|
20:37:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: "O-ame ga furu ni narimasu" vs. "ame furu", for instance. ("It's going to rain.")
20:37:56 <elliott> pikhq: if I said "ame furu" to someone would they slap me?
20:38:03 <elliott> or disown my family and all its pigs too?
20:38:16 <pikhq> elliott: Depends on context.
20:38:18 <cpressey> "Fuck you, it's going to rain."
20:38:34 <elliott> pikhq: I'm talking to the emperor.
20:38:45 <elliott> Or $insert_beloved_figure_of_pseudo_authority_but_great_respect
20:39:09 <pikhq> elliott: You would be beheaded for having the audacity to claim to be like unto the emperor.
20:39:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, Swedish is more expressive when it comes to whole sentences than English. = "Svenska är mer uttrycksfullt än engelska när det gäller hela meningar." though the difference isn't drastic here. But that was quite a close translation, it does sound slightly awkward in Swedish.
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20:39:23 <elliott> pikhq: What about, I don't know, a politician
20:39:32 <elliott> In a Q&A where I randomly decided to tell him about the weather
20:39:35 <elliott> Perhaps it's some deep metaphor
20:39:42 <pikhq> elliott: You'd look like a bit of an asshole.
20:39:42 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: "O-ame ga furu ni narimasu" vs. "ame furu", for instance. ("It's going to rain.") <-- what is the extra information in the former?
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20:39:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Incredibly respectful.
20:40:01 <elliott> Vorpal: "I bow to you superior one oh I am so gracious to be at your feet" or something to that effect.
20:40:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, doesn't translate easily?
20:40:08 <elliott> Half of Japanese is ass-kissing :P
20:40:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: "The most honorable rain shall come to fall." gets the basic sense across.
20:40:42 <elliott> the most honourable rain :D
20:40:47 <elliott> pikhq: What if you hate rain?
20:40:48 <pikhq> Vs. "Rain'll fall."
20:40:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, respectfulness against the bloody weather
20:40:56 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't matter.
20:41:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: The idea is that you are putting yourself below just about everything.
20:41:09 <elliott> pikhq: "The most honourable rain shall come to fall. I fucking hate rain."
20:41:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, now I know why lakonism wasn't invented in Japan. :P
20:42:23 <pikhq> elliott: "O-ame ga furu ni narimasu. O-ame ga dai-kirai de gozaimasu." "The most honourable rain shall come to fall. There exists a great hatred towards the most honourable rain."
20:42:36 <Gregor> elliott: Run it yourself X-P
20:42:43 <elliott> pikhq: How do you say "I fucking hate the rain" really offensively?
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20:42:57 <cpressey> and the cool thing is that X-P actually looks like Gregor's face
20:42:58 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, was it a lakonism?
20:43:00 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/hg/ and .../fshg/
20:43:11 <elliott> Vorpal: It's probably "laconism".
20:43:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yep that is it
20:43:20 <elliott> Gregor: Where does fshg go? :p
20:43:37 <pikhq> elliott: "AME DAI-KIRAI ZE'".
20:43:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it was the same in English, what with it being a loan-word from elsewhere for both languages.
20:43:57 <pikhq> elliott: The yelling is needed to make it offensive rather than just presuming casualness.
20:44:11 <elliott> pikhq: Is that what you'd say if you were the Emperor and you were speaking to, I don't know, a speck of dirt?
20:44:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Greek by way of Latin.
20:44:17 <elliott> And trying to be really offensive?
20:44:29 <elliott> Vorpal: When in doubt, replace k with c :P
20:44:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, what happened to hackego/egobot?
20:44:36 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, the Emperor can use the plain form to pretty much everyone.
20:44:51 <Gregor> Vorpal: Codu is slowdu. I took them down for the indefinite future.
20:44:51 <elliott> pikhq: Right, but say he's trying to portray his immense superiority, and *also* be really fucking offensive.
20:44:52 <pikhq> elliott: Except diplomats, heads of state, and the like.
20:44:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and f with ph
20:45:23 <Gregor> Maybe it's not slow now?
20:45:37 <Vorpal> well not always, but at the beginning of word components
20:45:47 <elliott> Is /s end-sarcasm or something?
20:45:54 <elliott> Because it sort of defeats the point of sarcasm.
20:45:59 <Gregor> I spoke too soon, forgot to conv=fdatasync
20:46:03 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, in that case he'd bring out the formal speech, referring to *himself* in the terms used to indicate respect.
20:46:30 <elliott> pikhq: But does that have the same force as "fuck"-laden English text?
20:46:39 <pikhq> elliott: No, it has much more force.
20:46:52 <elliott> pikhq: Excellent. How do you say "I fucking hate the rain" like that? :P
20:46:54 <cpressey> Well fungot and storkbot are still here.
20:46:55 <fungot> cpressey: mathmaticians come up with a better understanding of what is primitive functionality in the language itself
20:47:22 <cpressey> fungot: you're losing it. that almost made sense.
20:47:22 <fungot> cpressey: how long have you been converted yet?? is it tc? i don't think
20:47:45 <elliott> Gregor: Now get them up :P
20:47:50 <pikhq> elliott: "Wagahai wa o-ame ga furu to goran ni narimasu ze!" "We are most honorably observing that the most honorable rain shall come to fall!"
20:47:57 <Gregor> <Gregor> I spoke too soon, forgot to conv=fdatasync
20:48:05 <Gregor> 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 46.3802 s, 226 kB/s
20:48:10 <elliott> pikhq: Nonono, that's the first sentence.
20:48:16 <elliott> pikhq: I mean how do you say "I fucking hate the rain>" like that?
20:48:26 <elliott> This is part of a greater plan, I assure you.
20:49:15 <pikhq> elliott: "Wagahai wa o-ame ga daikirai ga aru ni narimasu!" "We have come to possess a great hatred towards the most honorable rain!"
20:49:32 <elliott> pikhq: ...but surely calling the rain honourable puts yourself below the rain?
20:49:40 <Vorpal> isn't Finnish really terse iirc?
20:49:44 <pikhq> elliott: It's more complex than that.
20:49:51 <pikhq> elliott: Here, it implies it's his rain.
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20:50:06 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: "AME DAI-KIRAI ZE'".
20:50:08 <elliott> Is the apostrophe intentional?
20:50:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> I guess not.
20:50:30 <pikhq> It indicates a glottal stop at the end of the sentence.
20:50:37 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, now rate which of these is more insane:
20:50:39 <elliott> O-ame ga furu ni narimasu. AME DAI-KIRAI ZE'!
20:50:40 <elliott> O-ame ga furu ni narimasu. Wagahai wa o-ame ga daikirai ga aru ni narimasu!
20:51:02 <pikhq> It makes it look like you suddenly went mad.
20:51:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not terse; we tend to use less words compared to, say, English, due to the lack of all those prepositions, but on the other hand our words are longer. In fact I do thing in general the equivalent Finnish string is longer than English; but I can't quite recall if that's true.
20:51:07 <elliott> pikhq: Now to learn how to pronounce that, travel to Japan, and go to see the emperor.
20:51:21 <pikhq> Rather than looking like you are intending to perform a coup d'etat.
20:51:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't your words express more?
20:51:47 <elliott> pikhq: I think I love Japanese.
20:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, lack of prepositions? How do you tell something that they should look for the keys on top of the table as opposed to under the table then?
20:52:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, the inflections express stuff, but they're still more characters; the common prepositions are short, anyway.
20:52:40 <pikhq> elliott: It gives you a lot of room to insult people.
20:52:45 <pikhq> elliott: Or ass-kiss.
20:53:05 <elliott> pikhq: What would happen if you alternated between the two forms in the first line every sentence?
20:53:12 <elliott> pikhq: Except, uh, maybe not shouting them, just to keep it slightly sane.
20:53:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are 15 different cases for nouns; those replace some of the prepositions. There are still *some*, of course.
20:53:39 <pikhq> elliott: Are you familiar with the milkman conspiracy part of Psychonauts?
20:53:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: But for example "in the box" → "laatikossa", "on the box" → "laatikolla".
20:53:58 <elliott> pikhq: I am not! I want to play Psychonauts sometime.
20:54:05 <pikhq> elliott: You should. It is amazing.
20:54:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, how regular are they? I mean, is it like verbs in English where you lots of ones that don't follow the standard pattern
20:54:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: A random day (2004-07-22) of the Europarl parallel corpus is 136698 bytes for English, 140700 for Finnish; not a great difference there.
20:54:45 <elliott> pikhq: So is using the, uh, crazy direct forms of language as part of, say, a sitcom (crazy impolite guy? Ho ho ho) permissable on Japanese TV? Or are they US-style in their insaneness?
20:54:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, has it been translated to Swedish as well?
20:55:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: 142590 bytes for 'sv'.
20:56:10 <fizzie> (There's da, de, el, en, es, fi, fr, it, nl, pt and sv at least in this set.)
20:56:27 <elliott> fizzie: What's the shortest?
20:56:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess the Swedish is rather bureaucratic?
20:56:53 <fizzie> I'd take a longer sample, but for some reason the number of files in the subdirs for different languages are different, so I'm not sure they'd be comparable.
20:57:47 <pikhq> elliott: It's actually the norm in a lot of anime.
20:58:01 <fizzie> elliott: http://p.zem.fi/europarl-wc -- that's with "wc -c" which might be more fair than counting bytes, assuming these are encoded in UTF-8; not entirely sure about that.
20:58:04 <elliott> pikhq: Why didn't I guess that anime would be the one to do the crazy thing? :P
20:58:19 <fizzie> Oh, it's -m for chars, -c for bytes.
20:58:29 <elliott> Yeah, wc makes little sense :P
20:58:30 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/europarl-wc-m in that case.
20:58:42 <pikhq> elliott: Also, the very direct forms of language are entirely permissible between people who know each other rather well, which would come up a lot on TV anyways.
20:58:55 <elliott> fizzie: Same ordering though.
20:59:11 <fizzie> elliott: They're not sorted. :p
20:59:20 <fizzie> Just a sec, let me put a sort in the pipe.
20:59:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, memory tip: wc -c is for char as in the C data type. wc -m is for Multibyte
20:59:31 <pikhq> Not to mention criminals, who will just screw politeness.
20:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it makes some sense that way ^
20:59:49 <fizzie> Okay, now they are sorted.
21:00:03 <pikhq> ... Or people from Hokkaido, where grammatical politeness does not exist. :D
21:00:04 <elliott> Vorpal: It's still stupid.
21:00:08 <elliott> fizzie: Your pastes are mutable? :|
21:00:18 <Vorpal> elliott, certainly, but at least you can remember which flag to use that way
21:00:20 <elliott> pikhq: Don't the yakuza sort of follow a really warped version of Japanese politeness?
21:00:23 <fizzie> elliott: Yes; it needs a "--force" command-line flag, though. :p
21:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: Also, why do I get the feeling that Hokkaido is the butt of quite a few jokes...
21:00:48 <pikhq> elliott: Yes. To most people, the yakuza just use crude language.
21:01:11 <pikhq> elliott: It's also mostly farmland.
21:01:13 <Vorpal> <pikhq> ... Or people from Hokkaido, where grammatical politeness does not exist. :D <-- that is one of the islands right?
21:01:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Far-north island.
21:01:26 <Vorpal> more island than the rest of japan I mean
21:01:27 <elliott> pikhq: the yakuza is amusing
21:01:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: Also a prefecture.
21:01:33 <elliott> pikhq: like, the extra branch of the government!
21:01:36 <Vorpal> arguably all of japan consists of islands
21:01:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: Largest prefecture. Split into sub-prefectures.
21:02:06 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Map_of_Japan_with_highlight_on_02edit_Hokkaido_prefecture.svg
21:02:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well IMO the difference between continents and islands is a bit arbitrary :P
21:02:22 <pikhq> elliott: Ah, the yakuza. The remains of feudalism.
21:02:46 <elliott> "The continent of BRITAIN!"
21:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, Australia sure as hell looks like an island, but isn't. And then why is Greenland still an island...
21:03:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, the notion of continents is mostly arbitrary.
21:03:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Australia does not look like an island...
21:03:10 <Vorpal> elliott, so is Greenland!
21:03:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Fun fact: The continent isn't Australasia any more.
21:03:19 <elliott> It got renamed. To Australia.
21:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it was called "Australasia" before? How long ago?
21:03:48 <elliott> Um, ages ago. I guess it was always a bit vague.
21:03:58 <elliott> "a region of Oceania: Australia, New Zealand, the island of New Guinea, and neighbouring islands in the Pacific Ocean (Island Melanesia, potentially including Wallacea)."
21:04:05 <elliott> But people used it to refer to the continent that is Australia all the time.
21:04:20 <elliott> At least that was my perception of things.
21:04:34 <Vorpal> right, you see how confused the whole business is
21:04:35 <pikhq> I prefer the geologic definition of continent.
21:04:41 <fizzie> Re the -c and -m versions, it's nice how el jumps from clear last place (179624 bytes, vs. 155610 for the second-last) to first (101886 chars, vs. 133489 on second); Greek and UTF-8 is not very byte-wise effective.
21:04:46 <pikhq> Which is based on tectonic plates.
21:05:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, but sometimes the borders of that cross continents
21:05:33 <elliott> pikhq: How prominent are the yakuza anyway?
21:05:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, for example, wouldn't california be on a different continent than much of the rest of "mainland" USA then?
21:05:59 <elliott> Like, in reality, not whatever Wikipedia says. :p
21:06:03 <pikhq> elliott: Fairly *prominent*, but their criminal activities aren't.
21:06:15 <pikhq> elliott: They are also entirely legitimate businessmen.
21:06:23 <elliott> pikhq: Who just happen to be criminals :P
21:06:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: Only a small part.
21:06:46 <pikhq> elliott: They basically run sumo.
21:06:59 <pikhq> elliott: Not for any criminal reasons; they just like sumo.
21:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: That counts as being a criminal if you ask me :P
21:07:32 <pikhq> And you can find them in the phonebook.
21:07:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, also that you said about Hokkaido above, was that true? Wouldn't that cause a lot of awkwardness when they interact with the rest of Japan?
21:07:59 <elliott> Vorpal: "Ha ha, those crazy Hokkai...dens!"
21:08:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because of popular media, they're *aware* of politeness.
21:08:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's just not the norm there.
21:08:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know how much dialects differ, but if you are say, visiting Tokyo and go into a grocery and ask for something...
21:08:45 <pikhq> What's more likely to get them is the complete lack of gender differences in language.
21:09:07 <pikhq> And aside from that, it's essentially Standard Japanese.
21:09:27 <elliott> "Oh, I'm fucking sorry, am I being impolite, you snivelling little piece of shit cunt? I am the lowest thing, sorry, the most high majesty of dirt I would honour would it spit in my face; I humbly bow to you, o greatest one, and serve you dearly; I swear on my pitiful life that I shall forever be faithful to you, great master."
21:09:36 <elliott> "Am I being impolite? Sorry!"
21:09:39 <Vorpal> elliott, like, forgetting to call the, uh, salad or whatever, honourable
21:09:51 <elliott> Vorpal: HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE MIGHTY SALAD
21:10:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: In most contexts, you can just use teineigo, the "normal" level of politeness, which is trivially learned in 5 minutes.
21:10:46 <elliott> IF ANYONE WANTS TO TOTALLY REQUEST FEATURES FOR MY KERNEL DO IT NOW :p
21:10:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah, but old habits are hard to get rid of. Since they are still speaking Japanese it would be even trickier than English vs. Swedish differences
21:11:04 <pikhq> (replace the -u ending of verbs with -imasu, conjugate that instead, and use "desu" instead of "da", and the sentence *must* end in -imasu or desu. Voila.)
21:11:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I decided that it's easier to make a simple unix-ish kernel than it is to get linux 0.01 working :p
21:12:02 <elliott> I'll still do the latter, but still.
21:12:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, wait, isn't that a meme?
21:12:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Desu" is the ordinary polite copula.
21:12:52 <pikhq> "da" is the plain copula, and "de gozaimasu" is the formal polite copula.
21:12:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I think desu just means [polite] :P
21:13:07 <pikhq> (and the no-longer used formal plain copula: "de gozaru")
21:13:16 <elliott> "It originated with a character in Rozen Maiden who would always end her sentences with DESU the emphatic form of desu. She often appears in image macros-desu featuring one red eye and one green eye and a green dress. She has the habit of killing-desu people with a watering-can. Her name in DESUDESU the anime is Suiseiseki (soo-see-seh-SEK-kee), and she's a doll or some weird anime shit. The excessive use of a polite form of greeting is ironic beca
21:13:17 <elliott> ut of all the Rozen Maiden characters Suiseiseki is the most impolite to Jun, the human to whom they are attached. 4chanians forgot how to spell her name, and just referred to her as Desu."
21:13:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, it seems like Hokkaido is saner then most of the rest of japan.
21:13:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, at least when it comes to language
21:13:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: The politeness and gender differences are actually recent adoptions to most dialects of Japanese.
21:13:58 <pikhq> In fact, gender differences are a recent *invention*...
21:14:27 <Vorpal> elliott, eyes like that.... a ship undercover!
21:14:46 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVYHUMCCwc oh god it broke my brain
21:14:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, not having gender differences is quite sane
21:15:00 <pikhq> (it's not exactly often that a peasant would actually talk to someone that's significantly *higher* than them in stature...)
21:15:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: The gender differences developed as, essentially, an analog to valley-girl speak. Which got formalised in most dialects for hysterical raisins.
21:16:15 <elliott> *valspeak, totally the cooler name
21:16:17 <olsner> om and I have only watched one minute of this thing... my brain will definitely break until I've seen it all
21:16:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, "valley-girl speak"?
21:16:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I only heard that name before
21:16:31 <elliott> olsner: it'll break after that too
21:16:37 <elliott> it's still going in my head
21:16:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Like, yeah, totally!"
21:16:46 <olsner> desu desu desu desu desu
21:16:55 <elliott> pikhq: That is, like, so, like, oh my gawd.
21:16:57 <pikhq> Said as vapidly as possible.
21:17:59 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVYHUMCCwc
21:18:01 <cpressey> I'm a little disturbed that my idiolect contains a fair number of borrowings from valley-girl speak.
21:18:12 <Vorpal> elliott, yes what about it?
21:18:17 <elliott> cpressey: i've just decided to decide that i totally invented it first.
21:18:23 <elliott> Vorpal: it's still playing in my head even after it's finished
21:18:28 <elliott> in response to olsner saying his brain will un-break afterwards
21:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it sound?
21:18:40 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVYHUMCCwc
21:18:47 <pikhq> cpressey: American vernacular has obtained a fair number of such borrowings.
21:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no headphones or speakers handy here
21:18:52 <olsner> elliott: actually I meant break *before*
21:18:59 <elliott> Vorpal: it sounds like "desu" 527 times
21:19:06 <olsner> obviously it had already started at that time
21:19:11 <elliott> on various places in the pitch spectrum on the high end
21:19:21 <pikhq> MOTTO DESU GA HITSUYOU!
21:19:27 <Vorpal> elliott, damn, why can't I get you to say "desu" to me without quotes so I can say "why thank you, no need to be so polite"
21:19:29 <pikhq> (MOAR DESU IS NEEDED)
21:19:35 <Vorpal> elliott, that was my plan all along the last half-screen
21:19:43 <elliott> Vorpal: desu desu desu desu desu desu desu
21:19:50 <elliott> pikhq: please tell me how to say "fucking cunt [desu]"
21:19:54 <elliott> I will use it for great good
21:20:04 <elliott> BOY THE EMPEROR IS GONNA BE SO PISSED
21:20:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it doesn't work now any more that you know my plan :P
21:20:07 <pikhq> elliott: Baka busu desu!
21:20:21 <elliott> pikhq: Baka? Isn't that... mild?
21:20:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you say that in a honourable way?
21:20:27 <elliott> Does Japanese have any real curses? :P
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21:20:48 <pikhq> elliott: Japanese has very few curses. Most of it comes from insufficiently polite.
21:21:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, like "the honourable act of <...> the most honourable <...>" or such
21:21:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: O-baka o-busu na hito de gozaimasu!
21:21:12 <elliott> pikhq: So is that like saying, what, "Dear sir, fucking cunt, [polite]"?
21:21:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, does it sound as screwy as it would in English?
21:21:35 * elliott tries to make http://www.cs.technion.ac.il/~danken/kanjidic.html give him the kanji for "baka busu desu"
21:21:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Baka and busu are inherently insults.
21:21:46 <elliott> pikhq: So does the "desu" actually make it a politeish sentence that's horribly offensive?
21:21:55 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, does it actually have the horrible/nice juxtaposition?
21:22:11 <pikhq> elliott: Baka is mildly insulting. Busu is *incredibly* insulting.
21:22:26 <elliott> pikhq: And the desu is nice?
21:22:43 <elliott> pikhq: So is it like "gosh-darned cunt" or "gosh-darned FUCKINGCUNT, sir"? :p
21:22:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, are they sexual curses? I mean, "fucking" as a curse does not translate very well to Swedish, though we actually imported "fucking" as a semi-loanword in slang....
21:23:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: I don't know of any sexual curses, no.
21:23:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, so what do baka/busu mean then if directly translated?
21:23:40 <elliott> pikhq: I can't find a romaji -> kanji thing that works ;__;
21:24:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Stupid hag," roughly.
21:24:17 <elliott> pikhq: I NEED'ST KANJI ;_;
21:24:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, in a gender neutral way?
21:24:36 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably there is some tool that people use for input as you mentioned above
21:24:46 <elliott> Vorpal: you have to disambiguate though :P
21:25:05 <olsner> låter som att o-baka o-busu betyder typ idiotkärring
21:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, maybe that is why there are no good completely automatic ones
21:25:29 <Vorpal> olsner, varför på svenska?
21:25:39 <Vorpal> olsner, och varifrån kom prefixet o-
21:25:55 <elliott> pikhq: There were a few "baka" kanjis, I picked the first. :p
21:26:03 <olsner> Vorpal: I think o- means long o here, basically a prefix for 'big'
21:26:15 <pikhq> elliott: Second one there.
21:26:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do the other alternatives mean?
21:26:34 <pikhq> Oh, wait, the one you picked first *was* right, just not the normal one used...
21:26:36 <olsner> but swedish because idiotkärring is swedish so there's no point in putting the rest of the sentence in non-swedish
21:26:49 <pikhq> As is the second. Huh.
21:26:49 <elliott> pikhq: Terrible pun according to dictionary: デスです
21:27:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: Okay, they're apparently archaicisms for the same.
21:27:09 <Vorpal> olsner, idiotic hag just doesn't have the same feeling
21:27:34 <elliott> pikhq: So is "馬鹿ブスです" right? :p
21:27:58 <elliott> pikhq: Now let's see how my friend-who-is-sort-of-idly-learning-Japanese-at-a-snail's-pace reacts :p
21:28:00 <pikhq> ("baka" is a loan word from *Sanskrit*, and so doesn't have any actual semantically-related kanji)
21:28:08 <elliott> pikhq: Is "デスです" indeed a (terrible) pun?
21:28:21 <elliott> pikhq: It gives both of them for "desu".
21:28:25 <pikhq> elliott: "It is 'is'."
21:28:39 <elliott> ですdesu (aux)- polite copula in Japanese
21:29:00 <pikhq> That is how you transcribe "death" into Japanese.
21:29:11 <pikhq> I really wouldn't notice that outside of context.
21:29:23 <elliott> pikhq: "ですデスです" -- can this be translated as "[Polite copula] is death?" :P
21:29:30 <elliott> As a sort of revolutionary linguistic statement.
21:29:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, it's a transcription of "death".
21:29:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, why not translate the word? Surely Japanese has some word for "ceased to be alive"
21:29:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, several.
21:30:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, so why on earth transcribe it
21:30:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: They use English like English uses French, Latin, and Greek.
21:30:40 <pikhq> Well, English and Chinese.
21:31:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Lemme just tell you how crazy it gets...
21:31:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, but for something as common as that concept I'm a bit surprised at that
21:31:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: Their unemployment office is called "Hello, Work!".
21:31:35 <pikhq> Honest. That's the name.
21:31:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, is this a hello kitty joke or something?
21:32:16 <pikhq> Vorpal: Anyways, it's more common by far to use 死ぬ or 亡く or お亡くになる for "to die".
21:32:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, in Sweden "Englification" of names tend to be slightly more sensible at least
21:33:03 <elliott> pikhq: DUDE ISN'T MY TERRIBLE REVOLUTIONARY LINGUISTIC PUN GOOD
21:33:17 <pikhq> elliott: No, it's not valid.
21:33:23 <pikhq> elliott: "デスはです。" There.
21:33:28 <pikhq> elliott: (desu wa desu.)
21:33:49 <elliott> pikhq: So would anyone actually be able to interpret that as the hilarious pun and linguistic statement that it is?
21:33:59 <elliott> pikhq: Also, isn't that reversed?
21:34:03 <olsner> pikhq: "hello work", literally, in english?
21:34:04 <elliott> It was meant to be "[polite copula] is death".
21:34:22 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, "ですはデスです。"
21:34:43 <elliott> pikhq: Chance of an intelligent Japanese native speaker getting that pun?
21:35:05 <pikhq> Higher if said just right.
21:36:53 <Vorpal> though the name changes tend to move towards making the name pretty much meaningless. Just consider Banverket -> Infranord. The former is pretty self descriptive in Swedish. It is clear it does something related to railways. (in fact, maintain/own the actual railways and related infrastructure), the later just ends up like "infrastructure north" which could be anything: railways, roads, telephony, you n
21:36:55 <pikhq> elliott: Otherwise, you'd just be saying "'Is' is 'is'."
21:37:03 <pikhq> elliott: Pitch accent.
21:37:13 <fizzie> Just for the record, here's a better count: all files that exist in all language subdirs, and with some in-band metadata removed: http://p.zem.fi/europarl-count
21:37:37 <fizzie> (Also a longish Perl oneliner.)
21:37:59 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, very high.
21:38:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, didn't you say that there were different number of files?
21:38:38 <cpressey> Vorpal: that sounds more like "Newspeakification".
21:38:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, that's why "all files that exist in all language subdirs".
21:38:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, they often coincide.
21:39:10 <fizzie> Maybe s/all language subdirs/every language subdir/.
21:39:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh I missed the "exists in all" bit
21:39:33 <olsner> yay, japanese fonts installed
21:39:36 <elliott> pikhq: I am communicating in Japanese like BRICKS ON FIRE
21:39:43 <elliott> olsner: if not, remove them and install takao instead
21:39:46 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with the missing files; perhaps their official interpreter for the corresponding languages was sick or something?
21:39:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm... that could mean mechanical pencil?
21:39:55 <olsner> in hindsight, the reason japanese characters didn't work is pretty obvious
21:41:16 <fizzie> The europarl corpus page itself has word-wise comparisons between English and every other language: http://www.statmt.org/europarl/
21:41:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm as a reference point, how many chars in the first book from Tolkien's famous trilogy?
21:41:38 <olsner> elliott: but the takao fonts are more than twice as large as the sazanami fonts
21:41:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, the numbers look large but it is hard to know without something to compare with
21:42:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think I have an e-text of that, but the whole five-part HHGTTG trilogy has 1574087 characters.
21:42:52 <fizzie> So the Europarl corpus has about a hundred times that.
21:43:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, how many years is it from?
21:43:07 <elliott> pikhq: 低能者女性器糞 -- this is why you never let me near a dictionary
21:43:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: From April 1996 to October 2006, approximately.
21:44:09 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I only seem to have dejavu, freefont and the usual X bitmap fonts on here, yet that renders quite well
21:44:22 <Vorpal> well, not as boxes at least
21:44:36 <Vorpal> elliott, they look antialiased
21:44:40 <pikhq> elliott: ... The *hell* is that supposed to be?
21:44:49 <fizzie> "It wasn't even the climax of the book, because there wasn't one. The character died about a third of the way through the penultimate chapter of the book, and the rest of it was just more stuff about road-mending. The book just finished dead at the one hundred thousandth word, because that was how long books were on Bartledan."
21:44:52 <olsner> oh, hhgttg is only 800-something pages in all
21:44:59 <elliott> pikhq: It got a "fuck you" out of my friend, but that might have been because he's busy. :P
21:45:01 <fizzie> (Talking about book lengths and hhgttg reminded me of that.)
21:45:12 <elliott> pikhq: No, wait: "Are you calling me a man paper moon 14 person heterosexual goods something"
21:45:20 <pikhq> elliott: "Unintelligent-person birth-canal shit"
21:45:41 <elliott> "You're a birth-canal shit."
21:46:10 <olsner> "You're just a turd that came out the wrong way."
21:46:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, quoted from memory?
21:46:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, from the same files I counted the character numbers from.
21:47:03 <fizzie> Since I was in the directory already and so on.
21:47:45 <Vorpal> strange it was a multiple of 10
21:47:55 <Vorpal> I mean, you wouldn't expect that base 10 would be very common at all
21:48:22 <Vorpal> (the bit about "one hundred thousandth word" I meant)
21:48:39 <fizzie> Well, the Bartledan people very really very much like humans.
21:48:49 <fizzie> That's why Arthur went there, after all.
21:49:05 <Vorpal> oh right, it was from that bit
21:49:41 <cpressey> < elliott> pikhq: 低能者女性器糞 -- this is why you never let me near a dictionary <-- fizzie, make fungot do this sort of thing please.
21:49:42 <fungot> cpressey: this reminds me of captain pirk, too.
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21:50:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I wouldn't think that europarl would be representative for "normal" usage of the languages
21:50:58 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
21:51:03 <fungot> Vorpal: may i commence by extending my congratulations once more to the expected trade liberalisation for its own common fisheries policy cover the main points on the agenda of multilateral trade negotiations, the council and commission present here. for that, we believe that european union sanctions had had the courage in january to approve disbursement, eu aid is already a legal requirement in the directive and the vertical d
21:51:09 <Vorpal> that is not very normal English :P
21:51:27 <fungot> elliott: mr president, a french person can purchase software from an american company exempt from vat, whereas an american making a similar acquisition from a french administrative tradition, and in particular, the commission has forwarded this communication on improving the working conditions of all those who have hearing difficulties who could have imagined such an achievement even a year ago today, together with european uni
21:51:42 <Vorpal> non-representative word length and so on
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21:52:40 <cpressey> heck, if i can figure out a cheap way to get a random Han character, I'll make storkbot do it.
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21:53:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, err, rand() % NUMBER_OF_HAN_CHARS_IN_UNICODE + CODEPOINT_OF_FIRST_HAN_CHAR ?
21:53:39 <Vorpal> that will be somewhat biased probably
21:53:44 <Vorpal> but you get the general idea surely
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21:55:07 <cpressey> Vorpal: a) is it contiguous? b) give me those numbers
21:55:17 <elliott> cpressey: http://fileformat.info for all unicode info
21:55:25 <elliott> specifically http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/index.htm
21:55:29 <elliott> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/index.htm
21:55:37 <cpressey> elliott: this will take years to research
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21:56:12 <elliott> cpressey: just include everything with CJK in it that isn't, like, random punctuation
21:57:05 <cpressey> also, apparently, it's not continguous, or at least, i am confuse by it.
21:57:38 <cpressey> guess I could just take from http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/cjk_unified_ideographs/utf8test.htm
21:58:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Probably not (representative), but it's the only real parallel corpus I happened to have.
21:58:35 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Vorpal: a) is it contiguous? b) give me those numbers <-- a) I thought so. b) no idea, but should be easy to find
21:58:45 <fizzie> Maybe our machine translation folks have better ones.
21:59:08 <elliott> cpressey: i'm getting a list of ranges
22:00:58 <cpressey> my font doesn't support a lot of them outside the block i gave
22:01:07 <cpressey> in fact it doesn't do all of that block either
22:01:12 <cpressey> but it does the vast majority of it
22:02:56 <fizzie> I could try to stick something into fungot, except that the current tokenizer probably won't quite grok Japanese/Chinese/whatevernese, esp. if it doesn't have whitespace between word-like units.
22:02:56 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, first of all had to be found as identified and stated by mr ford, you are asking us for: that we provide a framework for the services sector is extremely diverse and could be implemented fairly quickly and give rise to two judgements against turkey.
22:03:26 <elliott> cpressey: it appears that not all those characters are allocated
22:03:47 <fizzie> I've actually thought about putting some Finnish in every now and then, but haven't, since I guess most of the hilariosity would sort of be wasted on you foreign devils.
22:04:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could put Swedish in
22:04:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be a somewhat larger group of people
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22:05:03 <Vorpal> (very very early morning tomorrow)
22:07:06 <fizzie> Heh, here's a set of 10000 SMS messages.
22:07:25 <fizzie> http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~rpnlpir/downloads/corpora/smsCorpus/ -- from volunteers.
22:07:57 <fizzie> <message id="181"><text>Leave it wif me lar... <DC> wan to carry meh so heavy... Is da num 98321561 familiar to <FC>?</text> ...
22:08:01 <fizzie> Hah, it's all like that.
22:08:20 <fizzie> I'll add a ^style sms to fungot some day soon; then he'll be just like a real teenager.
22:08:21 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, in ten years, people and efforts by the eu. we also fully support the commission strategy. there is also the development and implementing regulations of an interinstitutional agreement you will have to collect enough money to provide for clean boats which hardly make any noise or hardly produce any exhaust, which do not really know about the proposals that are now underway.
22:08:55 <fizzie> "Y so late but i need to go n get da laptop..." "Dunno lei <FC> all decide lor. How abt leona? Oops i tot ben is going n i msg him." "Nothing but we jus tot u would ask cos u ba gua... But we went mt faber yest... Yest jus went out already mah so today not going out... Jus call lor..."
22:09:02 <fizzie> What, it really *is* like this.
22:09:14 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
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22:09:27 <fizzie> I thought all the flab about horrible "SMS-English" was just hype.
22:09:40 <fizzie> "Okie but i scared u say i fat... Then u dun wan me already..."
22:09:52 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to be able to talk like that?
22:09:52 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the safety of the european union
22:10:30 <fizzie> Sorry, I mean I "tot" that.
22:11:18 <elliott> cpressey: GUESS WHAT I'M WRITING MY OWN OF NOW
22:11:30 <fizzie> "But u muz tell me wat u wan to noe... Easier 4 me to ask..."
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22:16:38 <cpressey> elliott: Markov chain assembler?
22:19:06 <cpressey> elliott: sewage treatment plant management system
22:21:56 <cpressey> elliott: BytePusher implementation?
22:25:51 <fizzie> (A duplicate may come in handy.)
22:28:30 <elliott> cpressey: btw ruby "almost" has a spec
22:28:42 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.rubyspec.org/ it's executable! :p
22:32:34 <cpressey> elliott: sort of more of a conformancy test suite than a spec, but ok
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22:32:59 <elliott> cpressey: if something specifies the behaviour of every element of the language as a test
22:33:07 <elliott> cpressey: what is it but a spec you can run things against?
22:34:04 <cpressey> cpressey: yes, but it's hard to specify behaviour in a way that is both complete and testable
22:34:15 <cpressey> so i'm guessing there are holes
22:39:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A WEB BROWSER!
22:40:00 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dear god.
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22:46:22 <elliott> cpressey: but haven't you ever wanted to script your browser with a shell script?!
22:47:10 <elliott> cpressey: ideally i'll expose the dom as a (virtual) fs tree :)
22:53:51 <elliott> useful URL bar idea: click on a subset of the path to go to that path
23:09:23 <elliott> cpressey: pythonic: http://faq.pygtk.org/index.py?req=show&file=faq23.038.htp
23:09:49 <elliott> url=ctypes.cast(p,ctypes.c_char_p).value
23:09:53 <elliott> has to be the worst line ever, gotta say
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23:32:19 <pikhq> What the *hell* is my computer doing?
23:32:32 <pikhq> Some font on my system renders \ as the yen symbol.
23:33:11 <pikhq> And no, I should not actually have a JIS X 0201 anything.
23:33:18 <elliott> pikhq: Well, Windows does it.
23:33:29 <elliott> pikhq: Japanese Windows shows \ as yen.
23:33:41 <pikhq> elliott: Only for Shift-JIS.
23:33:45 <elliott> You see C:¥Program Files¥... all the time on Japanese sites.
23:33:52 <elliott> pikhq: On all Japanese Windowses, afaik.
23:33:58 <elliott> pikhq: Because of hysterical raisins.
23:34:12 <pikhq> elliott: Because 0xA5 is ¥ in Shift-JIS and JIS X 0201.
23:34:51 <pikhq> Different codepoint though.
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23:36:06 <pikhq> But my system is rendering *U+A5* as ¥.
23:36:50 <pikhq> ... Waaaaiiit, is it somehow trying to use Meiryo?
23:37:45 <pikhq> Meiryo is broken in the ASCII range for hysterical raisins.
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23:38:55 <elliott> "According to Tom Rickner of Ascender Corporation, who helped program and font-hint it, Meiryo is one of the first Japanese fonts created on and for the computer screen" lol
23:39:02 <elliott> i guess ones not made by big corps don't count :)
23:40:19 <pikhq> Fontconfig set right, and voila.
23:40:53 <elliott> pikhq: You TOTALLY HAVE TO USE MY BROWSER
23:42:24 <pikhq> So, today we have learned that: Shift-JIS SUCKS ASS AND SHOULD DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE
23:43:35 <elliott> pikhq: Know what browser has SUPER HUGS?
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23:53:15 <pikhq> elliott: I've come to the conclusion that terminals absolutely inherently must suck at text rendering. Any thoughts on a good somewhat-graphical IRC client?
23:53:51 <pikhq> By "somewhat graphical" I mean "textual but using something better than a VT100 for rendering", of course. :P
23:54:11 <elliott> pikhq: You can configure XChat to not be utterly hideous; I can screenshot.
23:54:12 <elliott> pikhq: http://imgur.com/MH6fl.png
23:54:41 <pikhq> But that's XChat. :P
23:54:48 <elliott> pikhq: You can hide that tab bar if you *really* want to, although I'm not sure exactly how to navigate without it.
23:54:59 <elliott> pikhq: Trust me, I've tried every other client in existence.
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23:55:08 <elliott> pikhq: You could try smuxi. But smuxi has zero line-spacing. It's almost unreadable.
23:55:36 <pikhq> Ideally, I'd have irssi but with better damned text rendering attached.
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23:56:07 <pikhq> By which you mean "write a GUI ncurses library". Urgh.
23:56:16 <elliott> pikhq: irssi has pluggable UIs.
23:56:27 <elliott> Just there's only an ncurses one.
23:56:46 <pikhq> Holy fuck it has pluggable UIs.
23:56:57 <elliott> http://svn.irssi.org/repos/xirssi/
23:57:29 <elliott> pikhq: You're very welcome. :P
23:58:25 <elliott> "Irssi is a modular IRC client for UNIX that currently has only text mode user interface, but 80-90% of the code isn't text mode specific, so other UIs could be created pretty easily." ;; i like how this lies
23:59:42 <pikhq> Actually, what I really really want is just a GUI client that: doesn't suck, is entirely keyboard navigable.