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00:21:45 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, someone has posted a reversible life rule to the rule table repository." <<< two-dimensional reversible CA? how is that interesting
00:22:16 <oklopol> or do i misinterpret life rule
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00:40:32 <elliott> oklopol: you don't misinterpret, presumably phanty means one that has close-to-life behaviour or ... something
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00:40:42 <elliott> or maybe one that uses colours to simulate reversibility on "regular" life or something
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00:44:43 <oklopol> hmm, i feel like i should know something about when that's possible
00:48:59 <Sgeo> http://notalwaysright.com/ah-fathers-part-4/8117
00:52:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT
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01:42:16 <Sgeo> #tweetyour16yearoldself Make plans for college. Learn to drive. Don't rely on dad's planning for either.
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02:18:50 <Gregor> Plans for college: Great success
02:19:10 <Gregor> #tweetyour16yearoldself YOU'RE AWESOME! KEEP DOIN' WHAT YOU DO
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02:21:12 <Sgeo> I still haven't learned to drive
02:48:18 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Drivers license: 16 <-- I read that as "Driver licenses" XD
02:49:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo, learning to drive isn't hard when you get the knack of it ;)
02:49:20 <Vorpal> err get the hang of it
02:49:30 <Vorpal> (I mixed up two idioms didn't I?)
02:49:55 <Vorpal> elliott, any news wrt. minecraft?
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02:51:10 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc it was all but one file in ~/.minecraft that had to be copied. The one file that shouldn't be copied had the saved username/passwd.
02:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, also building aqueducts and bridges in classic is fun
02:52:41 <Vorpal> elliott, also there is a max altitude in classic at least
02:52:51 <Vorpal> I arranged for a jump from top to bottom
02:53:04 <Vorpal> didn't last nearly long enough
02:54:22 <Vorpal> elliott, have fun, need to sleep now →
02:57:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: "knack of it" seems a tiny bit archaic, but it's entirely valid.
03:10:02 <Sgeo> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/electrical-brain-zap-boosts-maths-ability-2125389.html I was thinking how I'd like that, but then started thinking that my problem is ignorance, not lack of ability
03:29:17 <Ilari> Haha... 'Maternal Intake of "Saturated Fat" Causes Liver Disease -- You Know, the Unsaturated Kind of Saturated Fat'.
03:29:42 <Ilari> Oh, I didn't know that unsaturated saturated fat exists... :-)
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03:41:07 <Ilari> Oh, I think I know. Trans fats are said to be equivalent to saturated fat, but aren't saturated, so I think unsaturated saturated fats really means trans fats. :->
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03:44:16 <Sasha> that worked in another channel
03:47:10 <Ilari> Teleanalysis has reached its bottom. If A is uncorrelated with B and B is correlated with C, A causes C (classic teleanalysis is if A is correlated with B and B is corrlated with C, then A causes C).
03:47:43 <coppro> Sasha: it's best if you idle for a while
03:47:49 <coppro> if you do it right then, it's obvious
03:48:01 <coppro> Ilari: Trans fats are not cis fats
03:48:06 <Sasha> coppro: I did it right then
03:48:18 <coppro> and there's no such thing as an unsaturated saturated fat
03:48:23 <elliott> <coppro> and there's no such thing as an unsaturated saturated fat
03:48:24 <Ilari> Well, all trans fats are unsaturated. :-)
03:48:37 <coppro> Sasha: no, I mean you join as You, then you wait for a long while, /then/ you inform people of their disconnection
03:48:53 <Sasha> but on the other channel, I did it as soon as I entered
03:49:03 <Sasha> trolled 5 or 6 people 5 or 6 times
03:49:11 <Ilari> Oh, and there are also fats that have both cis and trans double bond (CLA).
03:51:06 <Ilari> Quite a bit of different animals than techno fats: IIRC, in one study, for normal (techno) trans fats, ratio of $SOMETHING_BAD between highest and lowest quitiles was 5, whereas it was 0.5 for CLA...
03:53:04 <Ilari> IIRC, all studies of milkfat involving real markers (and not just notoriously unreliable dietary questionaries) say milk fat is healthy.
03:54:07 <Ilari> Especially whole milk... :-)
03:55:14 <Ilari> Oh, and milk fat is also good for dissolving various useful compounds out of vegetables... :-)
03:57:49 <Ilari> Dietary questionaries are unreliable for three reasons: 1) They don't capture the diet well, 2) People have poor memory about what they have eaten (even recently), 3) Intentional distortion.
03:59:38 <Ilari> It could be fun to first do a log of everything eaten for a week, then fill dietary questionare with that log as reference and then see the garbage that results...
04:00:43 <Sgeo> I could probably do such a log from memory
04:00:53 <Sgeo> My diet doesn't vary as much as it possibly should
04:02:02 <elliott> I can't think of any justification for changing a diet day-to-day from a health point of view.
04:02:10 <Sgeo> Chocolate cheerios for breakfast sometimes, sometimes potato chips. Chicken sandwich with lettice and onions. Coca-Cola (not Diet). ~1 box of Pasta with Parmesan Cheese
04:02:11 <elliott> If it's nutritious one twenty-four hour period it's nutritious the next...
04:02:47 <Sgeo> What if one 24 hour period provides only some nutrients, but the next it's varied up, providing the rest?
04:03:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: You are making Ilari cringe.
04:03:35 <Sgeo> Oh, the sandwich is only on school days, Monday-Thursday
04:03:50 <Ilari> That works... Usual nutrion misinformation claims that one must get water-soluble vitamins every day. Defiency symptoms with those take at least weeks to appear...
04:04:09 <elliott> pikhq: I even *felt* the cringe over IRC.
04:04:21 <elliott> It sounded like: "*cringe*".
04:04:21 <pikhq> ... Waitwaitwait. That's what you eat *each and every day*?
04:04:43 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan missing | *cringe* record: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:04:50 <Sgeo> Oh, the potato chips are also only on school days. Often, on those days, they're instead of the cheerios
04:05:00 <Sgeo> Soda is also only on school days
04:05:36 <pikhq> Chips for breakfast. That's... Urgh.
04:06:14 <Ilari> Oh, and they conviently don't mention that fat-soluble vitamins (including the extremely important vitamin D) *require* fat to be absorbed.
04:06:47 <elliott> I like how Debian's xorg no longer ships with twm.
04:07:28 <pikhq> elliott: Modular X.org...
04:07:40 <elliott> pikhq: Is evil and lacks twm purity.
04:07:47 <Ilari> Potato chips wouldn't be so bad (not that those would be good even then) if those used proper fats for cooking (instead of kinds of fats that are completely unsuitable for cooking).
04:07:55 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't have Twm by default.
04:07:59 <elliott> pikhq: Is evil and lacks twm purity.
04:08:12 <pikhq> Ilari: Such fats being?
04:08:14 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, twm is modern! It supports the Debian menu!
04:08:29 <pikhq> elliott: Would it make you feel better to know that Gentoo's X.org meta package does include Twm?
04:08:36 <elliott> pikhq: No, because that's Gentoo.
04:08:42 <pikhq> (because that meta package is "the entirety of X")
04:08:53 <Ilari> Coconut oil, palm oil, lard, ghee, tallow, ... Pick a favorite...
04:09:25 <Sgeo> Whichever will cause me to gain weight without causing cardiac issues
04:09:27 <pikhq> Hmm. I'd imagine ghee would give a quite interesting flavor to chips. Now I'm curious.
04:09:54 <Ilari> Some decades ago (before some front groups changed that), McDonalds used IIRC tallow for frying french fries...
04:10:18 <pikhq> Because tallow makes them more delicious.
04:10:40 <elliott> oclock(1) best program ever
04:10:51 <coppro> no, vineagar makes them more delicious
04:11:05 <Ilari> Making ghee from butter is a simple process...
04:11:08 <elliott> (2) "Let's just get rid of the fat and use vinegar instead."
04:11:38 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder what would be health effects of high amounts of organic acids...
04:12:03 <coppro> better than high amounts of HF
04:12:37 <coppro> it's a chemical formula
04:12:40 <coppro> for a surprisingly weak acid
04:12:50 <elliott> I thought it was something more relevant :P
04:13:22 <coppro> it is, however, a powerful contact poison
04:13:29 <pikhq> coppro: "weak acid" is a classification, not an indicator of corrosiveness.
04:13:34 <elliott> pikhq: I just got a wonderful, wonderful idea. By the last NeXTSTEP release in 1995, it noy only ran on the 68k, but also SPARC, HP PA-RISC, and... x86.
04:13:36 <coppro> (not as bad as dimethylmercury though. that shit is fucking scary)
04:13:40 <elliott> pikhq: What I'm saying is: Virtual machine.
04:13:48 <Ilari> At least it isn't ClF3 (that thing ignites sand on contact, eats through asbestos bricks, ...)
04:13:51 <pikhq> coppro: It's actually highly corrosive.
04:14:00 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, that's true
04:14:12 <coppro> but compared to other hydrohalogenic acids, it's a weakling
04:14:12 <elliott> Ignites sand on contact -- I am having trouble thinking of a more awesome substance.
04:14:46 <elliott> pikhq: I may have just found an x86 NextStep ISO. Cough.
04:14:55 <pikhq> elliott: HF is toxic on contact.
04:15:02 <coppro> a drop of dimethylmercury on a latex glove is lethal
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04:15:25 <elliott> I drink dimethylmercury for breakfast.
04:15:56 * Sgeo starts planning elliott's funeral.
04:16:02 <coppro> holy crap, ClF3 is powerful
04:16:08 <coppro> "no ignition delay has ever been recorded"
04:16:09 <pikhq> elliott: It doesn't burn you right away. It instead stops your heart.
04:16:22 <pikhq> CIF3 scares me even more.
04:16:55 <coppro> "It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water — with which it reacts explosively"
04:17:01 <Ilari> Oh, there's also FOOF. Explodes on contact with ice at -170 degC.
04:17:08 <elliott> pikhq: Did You Know? There's aptitude-gtk.
04:17:44 <coppro> pikhq: can't find much on CIF3
04:17:55 <coppro> actually, I don't even know if that compound could exist
04:18:08 <elliott> pikhq: The problem is, it's no good. :)
04:18:21 <pikhq> coppro: Fluorine makes a lot of unusual compounds.
04:18:34 <pikhq> coppro: What with being the most reactive element.
04:18:54 <Ilari> Orbitals of Cl can hybrize, that's why it can form more than one bond.
04:19:05 <Sgeo> "Hydrogen fluoride is generated upon combustion of many fluorine-containing compounds such as products containing Viton and polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon) parts. Hydrogen fluoride converts immediately to hydrofluoric acid upon contact with liquid water."
04:19:54 <pikhq> Yes, fluorine reacts with nobel gasses.
04:19:58 <Sgeo> Isn't that a noble gas?
04:19:59 <coppro> Sgeo: all hydrogen halides dissolve pretty much instantly
04:20:18 <coppro> 251 kJ/mol formation energy, too
04:20:26 <Sgeo> <pikhq> Yes, fluorine reacts with nobel gasses.
04:20:36 <elliott> It reacts with gases that have Nobel Prizes.
04:20:55 <coppro> Sgeo: the heavier noble gases are not as stable as you might think
04:20:58 <coppro> they are still highly stable
04:21:03 <elliott> Is a better man than you are
04:21:05 <coppro> but compounds can be made with them
04:21:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: So does water.
04:21:23 * Sgeo starts frothing at the mouth
04:21:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: Xe·6H2O is a real compound.
04:21:44 <Sgeo> Are you _trying_ to kill me?
04:21:47 <coppro> pikhq: uh, isn't that just a hydrated solid?
04:22:46 <Sgeo> There's a Wikipedia page for Xenon compounds
04:22:46 <coppro> pikhq: that looks like a hydrated solid
04:22:54 <coppro> and so not an actual compound as such
04:22:56 <Sgeo> Oh, for Noble gas compounds
04:23:08 * Sgeo is still WTFing
04:23:18 <pikhq> I quite like the fullerene compounds.
04:23:29 <coppro> I like how I didn't clarify at all, and you said 'ah'
04:23:29 <pikhq> It's a fullerene with a noble gas atom inside!
04:23:46 <pikhq> coppro: "Ah, you won't clarify".
04:23:51 <coppro> I hope the new quantum-nano building at my school is cool
04:24:06 <coppro> oh right, XeF8 is an ion
04:24:25 <elliott> It's a nano-scale building.
04:24:38 <Ilari> Fluorine compounds tend to be really nasty for some reason... Especially if the fluorine is attached something quite electronegative...
04:24:55 <coppro> because fluorine is like 'whee let's react with stuff'
04:25:08 <pikhq> It's the whore of the periodic table.
04:25:20 <coppro> (corollory: fluorine is a whore)
04:26:01 <coppro> also I spelled corollary wrong
04:26:33 <Ilari> Load of nitrogen atoms in molecule just likes to explode. Fluorine atoms in molecule actually tend to react with lots of stuff.
04:27:08 <Ilari> Oh, N3F... Sounds like a fun compound...
04:30:10 <Ilari> Oh, there's also CN4...
04:32:32 <Sgeo> All I know is that CN is cyanide (ion?)
04:34:08 <Ilari> Yeah. CN4 has CN- attached to N3+...
04:35:15 <Sgeo> Isn't 7F Backspace or del or something?
04:35:35 <Sgeo> (YAY FOR RECOGNIZING THAT 8 IS HALF OF 10)
04:40:47 <Sgeo> In base 12 with a zero-width space as a ... wait no.
04:41:27 <myndzi> 7f? no, backspace is 8
04:42:09 <myndzi> i guess 7f counts as del however; i thought all the control chars were < 32
04:42:14 <myndzi> guess you learn something new every day
04:43:09 <myndzi> i thought you were asking a question
04:43:23 <myndzi> yeah, it obliterates anything on paper tape
04:43:27 <myndzi> that is the reasoning apparently
04:43:34 <myndzi> in 7-bit ascii at least
04:43:53 * Sgeo should relearn COBOL
04:47:36 <pikhq> You mean you learned it once?
04:47:43 <Sgeo> Well, I read a book on it once
04:48:00 <Sgeo> I guess that's not the same as learning
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04:52:41 <Ilari> Looking at practices of hog/cattle farmers when raising animals for food is rather instructive... You don't want to feed those animals saturated fat...
04:53:58 <Ilari> (and the reason why is exactly one reason why you should be eating saturated fat).
04:59:59 <Sgeo> New xkcd in 1 min
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05:02:20 <Sgeo> (I secretly wanted to see how elliott would react)
05:03:01 <Sgeo> Why does it start sloping downwards/
05:03:36 <Sgeo> Also, WTF at the title
05:03:43 <elliott> pikhq: Have I mentioned recently that debian-installer is awesome?
05:04:12 <elliott> <Sgeo> Why does it start sloping downwards/
05:04:19 <elliott> Because... you spend all your time spinning around?
05:04:28 <elliott> It's xkcd. It's a steaming pile of shit. You know this.
05:05:39 <elliott> pikhq: It is! Although the expert mode has some *really weird* parts. Like: You can disable shadow passwords. Why? But then, on the same screen, you can use sudo instead of a root account. Why isn't this in the regular install? That's useful.
05:05:56 <elliott> pikhq: On the other hand... it can set up encrypted LVM with a few clicks. wtfawesome
05:07:37 <elliott> pikhq: Still... what kind of monster puts an utterly useless option (disable shadow passwords) on the same page as a very useful one (use sudo instead of root), and then hides that screen in the non-tedious^Wexpert installer?
05:07:54 <Sgeo> elliott, I meant when the friction is higher
05:08:13 <elliott> Sgeo: Because you can't move your chair about.
05:08:23 <elliott> It's xkcd, it sucks, it makes no fucking sense! YOU KNOW THIS!
05:10:16 <elliott> "Something tragic has happened in the Author’s life, and we feel that pointing out his love-life’s shortcomings or his relentless obsession with childhood would not be appropriate at this time." --xkcd explained
05:10:54 <coppro> relentless obsession with childhood?
05:11:38 <elliott> ("An updated version of the Map of Online Communities - a visualization of the size and relationships between various web communities.
05:11:39 <elliott> This otherwise useless data is visualized as a map for a good reason. It is meant to convince those that spend a majority of their lives online that the communities they belong to actually matter, like actual geographic locations. It is meant to give meaning to otherwise meaningless lives.")
05:11:45 <elliott> It's like xkcdsucks but doesn't suck!
05:12:09 <elliott> ("The hatted man then walks in and replaces “hammer” and “something it is not suited for” in the aforementioned phrase with other words that the Author deemed more wacky and humorous. Another example of this could be: “when all you have is a ball-point pen, everything starts to look like a stick figure.”")
05:12:20 <pikhq> elliott: Didn't the updated version of that actually show that it was a very very tiny inset of the map of Real Life?
05:12:28 <pikhq> Thus making the point even more clear?
05:12:37 <elliott> pikhq: Not that I am aware of.
05:12:46 <elliott> pikhq: Also, that quote was from xkcd explained, not Randall.
05:12:55 <elliott> RANDALL WOULD NEVER STATE SOMETHING SO OFFENSIVE TO NETIZENS
05:13:20 <pikhq> He has in #xkcd sometimes. I wonder why the hell he keeps the comic up, actually.
05:13:36 <elliott> pikhq: The comic being that particular one or xkcd itself?
05:13:40 <elliott> If the latter, I agree. :P
05:13:44 <elliott> ("The Author, much like Stephen Hawking, creates comics such as these as a cry for help. A cry that will, sadly, never be heard over the cackling laughter of his devoted fans.")
05:14:11 <pikhq> elliott: xkcd itself.
05:14:29 <elliott> pikhq: money + some horribly misguided belief that it's funny and/or emotional
05:14:46 <pikhq> elliott: I suspect money's the larger factor at this point.
05:15:06 <elliott> pikhq: no, he could easily churn out basically decent comics that appeal to the target audience on his schedule
05:15:17 <elliott> pikhq: but he keeps trying to be different and even his fans sometimes go "wat" on the forums
05:15:25 <pikhq> Yeah, but churning out shit is easier.
05:15:41 <elliott> pikhq: but he doesn't, he churns out uniquely demented shit
05:15:51 <elliott> comics he'd have to think about quite a lot just to fuck them up so effectively
05:16:07 <pikhq> Maybe he's just the world's greatest troll.
05:16:35 <elliott> Occam's Razor says he's just sad. :P
05:23:03 <Sgeo> Online Communities 2 has the entire map being a small portion of Spoken Language
05:23:45 <elliott> Oh, indeed. It is sad that you know that.
05:24:05 <Sgeo> elliott, I am capable of looking at the archives and checking
05:24:09 <Sgeo> Which is, in fact, what I did.
05:24:18 <elliott> It is sad that you checked
05:30:13 <elliott> Does anyone know of any practical reversible debuggers, i.e. program can be run backwards as well as forwards?
05:30:34 <elliott> http://urdb.sourceforge.net/ This looks a bit fragile.
05:35:39 <elliott> "AFAIK dwarf is format for executables, there are few formats as you know (Window's exe as opposed to linux's ... what's his name) Dwarf is used in linux, I'm guessing that when you build an app in debug mode the compiler injects debug data to the dwarf in order to debug (I'm guessing break points and etc). If Go, a high level script language is asking to enter here needs of debugging to the way you build an executable it means google is doing so
05:35:40 <elliott> mething bigger with go. (probably for android)."
05:35:52 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, gdb is not reversible.
05:36:20 <Gregor> elliott: Whoever wrote that needs to be punched in the face.
05:36:23 <pikhq> elliott: They added it in version 7. I do not know how to use it.
05:36:37 <elliott> Gregor: The line immediately before it: "Ok... I think I get it... the Google is trying to rape a dwarf? :)"
05:36:43 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/e1c6e/go_issued_for_inclusion_in_forthcoming_dwarf_5/c14ii8l
05:37:32 <pikhq> I'm setting fists to stun.
05:37:37 <pikhq> And phasers to punch.
05:39:16 <Sgeo> Dear Facebook: Fuck you for not letting me see the message I sent with a friend request (that I withdrew, but whatever)
05:41:26 <elliott> Gregor: READY FOR ANOTHER MULTI-ARCHITECTURE EMULATIONFEST????
05:42:21 <elliott> Gregor: NeXTSTEP 3.3 was released for not only Motorola 68000 but for x86, SPARC, and HP PA-RISC. I have the x86 version and am trying to get it running in qemu. I suggest you try SPARC.
05:42:50 <Gregor> Uhhh, are any of these AVAILABLE? :P
05:43:00 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I have the m68k/x86 version from torrentz.com.
05:43:15 <elliott> Gregor: http://torrentz.com/169206b92525ec1750b19e96acd4be5f17674b0a SPARC and HP PA-RISC.
05:43:20 <elliott> Gregor: "Hey, it has one seed." Good luck, bitch!
05:44:44 <elliott> Gregor: (You may have better luck than I, considering this shit is talking about patching old versions of QEMU.)
05:45:10 * elliott gets qemu 0.9.0 to apply qemu-0.9.0-openstep-busmouse-2.diff
05:46:40 <elliott> A processor emulator that is used to run an x86 Linux Kernel on x86 Linux."
05:47:56 <elliott> http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/qemu/ Sweet, where's the old releases.
05:48:48 <elliott> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/primary/+files/qemu_0.9.0.orig.tar.gz
05:50:28 <elliott> Gregor: WARNING: "gcc" looks like gcc 4.x
05:50:28 <elliott> ./configure: 372: Syntax error: Bad fd number
05:50:41 <elliott> dash incompatible + "gcc 4? wat"!
05:50:52 <elliott> QEMU is known to have problems when compiled with gcc 4.x
05:50:53 <elliott> It is recommended that you use gcc 3.x to build QEMU
05:50:53 <elliott> To use this compiler anyway, configure with --disable-gcc-check
05:51:04 <elliott> Gregor: Nope, it knows what gcc 4 is, it just doesn't trust it!
05:51:30 <pikhq> For 0.10 they had to rewrite much of the emulation to get it to work with GCC 4.
05:51:36 <pikhq> (it should now be compiler-agnostic)
05:51:43 <elliott> pikhq: I should install gcc 3, huh.
05:52:28 <Gregor> pikhq: Is it? I thought it still depended heavily on GCC.
05:52:56 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh? Maybe. Probably a lot of magic still going on there.
05:53:06 <elliott> Nice; OpenStep != OPENSTEP
05:53:13 <elliott> OPENSTEP is (was) the official implementation of OpenStep.
05:53:38 <pikhq> Ahahahah. Yeah, it's now compiler agnostic.
05:54:00 <elliott> What's so ahahahah about that :P
05:54:05 <elliott> Deewiant sure hasn't talked in a while.
05:54:06 <Sgeo> Thus answering the question posed by a recent article of The Daily WTF
05:54:15 <Gregor> pikhq: If it doesn't work with MSVC, it's not compiler-agnostic ;)
05:54:16 <elliott> The Daily WTF is terrible now.
05:54:23 <pikhq> elliott: It has parts of TinyCC in it now.
05:54:28 <elliott> Gregor: I took a shit a while ago and it didn't work with MSVC.
05:54:41 <elliott> What, where are the gcc 3 packages in Debian.
05:54:44 <elliott> They were there a second ago.
05:55:07 <elliott> ??? Seriously, I installed it just a few days ago.
05:55:32 <elliott> # [2009-08-07] gcc-3.4 REMOVED from testing (Britney)
05:55:34 <elliott> Well it was there later than that.
05:55:42 <elliott> (Also, fuck you, Britney.)
05:57:00 <elliott> pikhq: So I guess it won't build well as a 64-bit program either, huh? :P
05:57:57 <pikhq> elliott: I mean, I used 0.9 on x86_64...
05:57:59 <elliott> gcc-3.4 depends on cpp-3.4 (= 3.4.6-9); however:
05:58:00 <elliott> Package cpp-3.4 is not installed.
06:00:21 <elliott> Oh yeah, i386-softmmu. Can there be anything better?
06:00:29 <elliott> Gregor: So you are totally doing this for SPARC right? :P
06:01:27 <Sgeo> Are there functions that are continuous everywhere but differentiable nowhere? What of defined anywhere but continuous nowhere? I seem to recall seeing an example of one of those.
06:03:12 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ qemu-0.9.0/i386-softmmu/qemu -fda 3.3_Boot_Disk.floppyimage -cdrom NextSTEP\ 3.3\ m68k\ i486.iso -net nic,model=ne2kpc -net user -soundhw sb16 -boot a hd.qcow2
06:03:17 <Sgeo> Is Helium the least reactive element?
06:03:22 <elliott> qemu: could not load PC bios '/usr/local/share/qemu/bios.bin'
06:03:55 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ find qemu-0.9.0 -name bios.bin
06:04:05 <elliott> pikhq: Does QEMU 0.9.0 not ship with a BIOS or something?
06:04:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:04:26 <elliott> - The PC BIOS comes from the Bochs project
06:04:27 <elliott> (http://bochs.sourceforge.net/). A patch from bios.diff was applied.
06:04:27 <elliott> - The VGA BIOS and the Cirrus VGA BIOS come from the LGPL VGA bios
06:04:27 <elliott> project (http://www.nongnu.org/vgabios/).
06:05:47 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ qemu-0.9.0/i386-softmmu/qemu -L /usr/share/qemu -fda 3.3_Boot_Disk.floppyimage -cdrom NextSTEP\ 3.3\ m68k\ i486.iso -net nic,model=ne2kpc -net user -soundhw sb16 -boot a hd.qcow2
06:05:50 <elliott> What could possibly go wrong?
06:05:54 <Gregor> Sgeo: You can't get helium to react to anything.
06:05:55 <elliott> qemu: Unsupported NIC: ne2kpc
06:06:27 <Sgeo> What's the next noble gas down, and does that react with anything?
06:07:03 <Gregor> Sgeo: Noble gases, unless ionic, don't react to anything. They're pretty dull all the way up 'til radon. Of course, before there you can still heat 'em up to make pretty colors :P
06:07:30 <Gregor> s/heat 'em up/put huge amounts of electricity through them/
06:08:06 <elliott> That's from my version, but still.
06:08:07 <Sgeo> Xenon is before Radon
06:08:31 <elliott> Whoo, blank QEMU screen of DEATH
06:08:53 <Gregor> Sgeo: Yeah, and Xenon is /mostly/ boring.
06:09:00 <Gregor> Just less so than the ones before it :P
06:09:26 <Sgeo> Well, when do they stop being 100% boring?
06:09:27 <elliott> It appears that it doesn't like the BIOS at all for some reason.
06:10:01 <Gregor> Sgeo: None of them are 100% boring. Even helium can be made to react, just takes a lot of energy.
06:11:44 <Sgeo> When do they start making stable compounds?
06:12:52 <Gregor> I thought we were talking about noble gases here.
06:13:05 <elliott> hmm, how do I tell qemu to use pcbios, not vgabios?
06:13:20 <Sgeo> "Helium can form unstable compounds, known as excimers, with tungsten, iodine, fluorine, sulfur and phosphorus when it is subjected to an electric glow discharge, to electron bombardment, or else is a plasma for another reason. The molecular compounds HeNe, HgHe10, and WHe2, and the molecular ions He
06:13:27 <Sgeo> , HeH+, and HeD+ have been created this way.[59]"
06:14:11 <Gregor> I'm just wondering why you're defining unboringness as stable compounds :P
06:14:14 <Gregor> But I think that would be argon.
06:15:23 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/0fCyV.png
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06:19:10 <Sgeo> Solid helium exists?
06:19:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: Just a matter of making it cold enough.
06:20:25 <Sgeo> "Helium can form unstable compounds, known as excimers, with tungsten, iodine, fluorine, sulfur and phosphorus when it is subjected to an electric glow discharge, to electron bombardment, or else is a plasma for another reason. The molecular compounds HeNe, HgHe10, and WHe2, and the molecular ions He
06:20:30 <Sgeo> , HeH+, and HeD+ have been created this way.[59]"
06:20:40 <elliott> pikhq: HAHA I NOW HAVE THE DEVELOPMENT TOOLS TOO
06:20:43 <Sgeo> What I meant to paste was He tried to solidify it by further reducing the temperature but failed because helium does not have a triple point temperature at which the solid, liquid, and gas phases are at equilibrium. Onnes' student Willem Hendrik Keesom was eventually able to solidify 1 cm3 of helium in 1926.[17]
06:20:49 <elliott> Gregor: So you've downloaded it, right? :P
06:22:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Seems that it'll solidify at 2.5MPa and 0.95K.
06:22:14 <elliott> pikhq: I am not sure qemu 0.9.0 works with SDL 1.2.
06:22:25 <Sgeo> Oh, right, pressure is another variable
06:22:47 <pikhq> And boil at 4.22K at standard pressure...
06:24:07 <pikhq> "Boiling point: 4.22K" according to Wikipedia...
06:25:48 <Sgeo> "Helium is the least reactive noble gas after neon and thus the second least reactive of all elements"
06:25:53 <Sgeo> _second_ least?
06:26:00 <elliott> pikhq: You are talking like Ilari...
06:26:42 * elliott looks for pxe-ne2k_pci.bin
06:26:50 <elliott> Oh wait, I don't want that.
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06:28:28 <Sgeo> "a balloon filled with neon will rise in air, albeit more slowly than a helium balloon."
06:28:37 <Sgeo> So stop using precious helium for balloons!
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06:29:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: Citation on "second least reactive"?
06:29:46 <Sgeo> Lewars, Errol G. (2008). Modelling Marvels . Springer. pp. 7071. ISBN 1402069723.
06:30:00 <Sgeo> http://books.google.com/books?id=IoFzgBSSCwEC&pg=PA70&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
06:30:10 <elliott> pikhq: Got a qemu 0.9.0 bios? :P
06:31:00 <elliott> It seems that when I do ctrl+alt+1 from the QEMU console it just... freezes the display at whatever it was and nothing shows up.
06:31:20 <Sgeo> It seems... uncertain
06:31:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: That book suggests that neon is less reactive, and neon is also a noble gas.
06:32:01 <elliott> pikhq: That book suggests FIX MY QEMU
06:32:11 <augur> anyone interested in making book scanner?
06:32:29 <Sgeo> Did elliott just do a null correct?
06:32:30 <elliott> augur: Anyone interested in fixing my QEMU?
06:32:41 <elliott> Sgeo: "QEMU " -> "QEMU ;_;"
06:32:54 <elliott> augur: I'll scan YOUR book.
06:33:02 <Sgeo> Ah, thought the tears were in relation to having to make the correction
06:34:09 <elliott> augur: YEAH CONSIDER YOUR BOOK SCANNED
06:37:38 <elliott> I will pay anyone who creates a 1366x768 series of PNGs or animated GIF or anything that consists of, first, a bunch of N-pixel-blackness separated straight vertical white lines, that then, on the next frame, become slightly diagonal, and then on the next moreso, etc., until they are horizontal, and then they start going \-ways (so | / -- \, except a lot smoother) and continue going around until they are all straight again endless money
06:37:44 <elliott> Also, this should be rather fast.
06:38:05 <elliott> Obviously as they rotate to horizontal more should appear on the screen to keep the fill.
06:38:12 <Sgeo> Maybe tomorrow or something
06:38:20 <elliott> (It would suffice to create a huge one that doesn't have that, and then crop it in the centre.)
06:38:23 <Sgeo> Then agian, I'd have to relearn PIL
06:38:34 <elliott> I might end up just doing it myself :P
06:38:37 <Sgeo> And I have so much homework
06:38:41 <elliott> The idea is to set it as your background and/or screensaver.
06:39:16 * Sgeo remembers doing image manipulation for that.. Python Challenge thingy
06:39:36 * Sgeo wonders if Factor is decent at image manipulation
06:40:13 <elliott> coppro: http://www.reddit.com/user/Related_Magic_Card
06:40:40 <coppro> elliott: I don't get it
06:40:55 <elliott> coppro: Click "context" on the comments :P
06:49:21 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/dExFq.jpg
06:50:29 <coppro> odds the border officers just wanted to watch porn?
06:52:11 <elliott> coppro: Greatest job ever? :P
07:08:19 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php
07:08:38 <elliott> # (Protection log); 07:15 . . Ais523 (Talk | contribs) (protected "Talk:Befunge/index.php": spambot title [edit=sysop:move=sysop])
07:08:38 <elliott> # (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Befunge/index.php; 07:15 . . (+15) . . Ais523 (Talk | contribs) (salt; spambot title, no real legitimate reason to use this unless someone invents a very weirdly named esolang)
07:08:44 <elliott> WHOOPS LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE DID
07:10:48 <Sgeo> So I guess it wasn't actually protected against creation? Or, worse, elliott is an admin?
07:11:08 <elliott> But I should totally become an admin now. Mwahahaha.
07:11:44 <Sgeo> "And taking a look at the long range forecast, continued snow, darkness, and extreme cold. This is Howard Handupme, goodnight"
07:11:48 <Sgeo> That seems.. whoops
07:11:58 <Sgeo> "This page has been protected against creation and cannot be created without administrator help; "
07:12:26 <Sgeo> Next I'll accidentally paste porn
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07:14:21 <Sgeo> Oh, the talk page has been protected
07:14:28 <Sgeo> Why TF would spammers attack a talk page/
07:14:44 <elliott> And it must now be deprotected, to allow for discussion on my language :P
07:20:18 <elliott> I've also added CLC's rename language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rename
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07:58:14 <elliott> Behold my SNAZZY NEW USERPAGE http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird
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16:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Next point of order: test Debian for GPU horribleness.
16:52:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:56:38 <coppro> I despise stateful webapps
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17:02:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: By the way, the system will become a little less stable after the release of squeeze.
17:02:09 <elliott> It's still perfectly stable, just not as unchanging.
17:02:53 <elliott> (A few months before the next Debian release, testing goes into a total freeze and stops getting updates (well, apart from security updates and the like). Then, a few months later, it's released as the next Debian. After that, testing thaws and it can be updated regularly again, by packages trickling in from unstable after being tested.)
17:03:58 <elliott> (Okay, it technically gets updates that are just bug fixes. But no new features or anything.)
17:07:49 <Sgeo> elliott did go to sleep at some point, right?
17:08:02 <elliott> I ... think so. I still don't understand my own sleep schedule.
17:09:58 <pikhq> Testing is generally incredibly stable.
17:10:22 <pikhq> Just less so than Stable, which only makes notable changes every year or two.
17:11:13 <elliott> pikhq: Oldstable makes changes with the same frequency!
17:11:33 <elliott> pikhq: Unfortunately, right now oldstable doesn't exist :P
17:11:45 <elliott> (They decided to stop offering security updates for etch in January.)
17:11:59 <elliott> http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20100121
17:12:09 <elliott> pikhq: I think it was part of their "okay, seriously, we need to start updating stable more often" plan.
17:12:29 <elliott> pikhq: But that's shorter than Ubuntu Long Term Support, how PATHETIC! :P
17:12:50 <elliott> "The security team tries to support a stable distribution for about one year after the next stable distribution has been released, except when another stable distribution is released within this year. It is not possible to support three distributions; supporting two simultaneously is already difficult enough."
17:12:56 <elliott> Two stable Debians in a year.
17:13:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm?
17:13:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because it ships the entire, default GNOME by default, plus Debian desktop environment extras.
17:14:02 <elliott> The Debian "gnome" package consists of all the packages that make up GNOME, plus Debian's extras.
17:14:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://packages.debian.org/testing/gnome/gnome
17:14:55 <Phantom_Hoover> And Iceweasel is so named because Mozilla is totalitarian about the name "Firefox", yes?
17:14:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So if you see those gnome-* packages, those, plus a few of the dependencies there, make up official GNOME; the rest are Debian inclusions.
17:15:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Since Debian modify even one byte of Firefox, it must be called something else.
17:15:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (It also must use a different logo, despite the logo now being Free as of recently, because it is trademarked.)
17:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it was that you could only call it "Firefox" if your modifications fell within certain conditions?
17:15:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Before you ask, Ubuntu get around it because Canonical are corporatist dickwads who have enough money to make deals. :)
17:16:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. Any modification must not be called Firefox, as far as I am aware after looking into this.
17:16:28 -!- yorick has joined.
17:16:45 <Phantom_Hoover> [[For the free software company, see Canonical Ltd..]] — WP
17:18:09 <pikhq> elliott: If distributed.
17:18:17 <pikhq> elliott: Which is how Gentoo gets away with it.
17:18:30 <elliott> Well, yeah; you can compile whatever you want.
17:18:50 <Sgeo> Are you saying that distributing source is differentn from distributing binaries?
17:18:56 <elliott> Sgeo: IF YOU DO NOT IMMEDIATELY DISCONTINUE YOUR USE OR AT LEAST OVERUSE OF "WAIT WHAT" I REFUSE TO RESPOND TO ANY MORE QUESTIONS AS YOU ARE DILUTING THE TERM
17:18:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Trademark law is a bitch.
17:19:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also, Gentoo doesn't distribute modified source.
17:19:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: They distribute patches and the original source, and you *may* apply those patches and get a binary that would be illegal to share with anyone.
17:19:53 <elliott> "Doctors at the Swedish Medical Center in Seattle wanted to tweet the surgery in order to raise awareness about a new, less invasive method of removing tumors."
17:20:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: Or you can tell Gentoo to just turn on the configuration flag that'll make it do a legal release.
17:20:18 <elliott> "We could have saved your husband as the unexpected complication came up, but we were too busy TWEETING IT."
17:20:29 <Sgeo> Well, I'd be ok with it if it was someone not actually doing the surgery, but just watching, who was tweeting
17:20:45 <pikhq> (using the Firefox logo minus the actual fox, and using the code name instead of Firefox for the name of the browser. "firefox" will still execute it.)
17:21:05 <Sgeo> Well, presumably the watcher would be a doctor, and if a complication came up, they should get involved, so
17:21:59 <pikhq> So, kinda like this, except without the bomb fuse: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Minefield_about.png
17:22:47 <Sgeo> So what's the bomb fuse doing in the picture?
17:23:26 <pikhq> That's a trunk build.
17:23:32 <pikhq> Trunk builds might blow up.
17:24:08 <Sgeo> What's the Firefox logo for that?
17:24:21 <Sgeo> As opposed to the "clean and legal to modify and redistribute" logo
17:25:54 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, ah, that's why Shiretoko carefully avoided the term "Firefox".
17:27:12 <Sgeo> If Shiretoko is a Mozilla Foundation project, why do they need to avoid saying "Firefox"?
17:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> And, inexplicably, my backlight controls have completely ceased to function.
17:27:32 <Sgeo> I think I get it now
17:27:40 <Sgeo> Trunk builds of Firefox are not called Firefox?
17:27:59 <pikhq> Only official releases with the Mozilla Foundation approval.
17:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, back then I was using Ubuntu's version of it before it had replace Firefox 3.0, so I assume they'd modified it
17:28:24 <Sgeo> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/shiretoko/ in Chrome thinks I'm running an early version of Shiretoko
17:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Forbidding it outright is stupid, but there's almost certainly a way of getting arbitrary modifications in with it.
17:31:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Request approval.
17:34:12 <pikhq> For any modifications at all.
17:34:59 * Sgeo bows to his strict Firefox masters
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17:49:33 <elliott> So, uh, Apple are discontinuing Xserves. I wonder why...?
17:49:50 <elliott> "Apple has put together a "transition guide," advising that users switch over to the Mac Pro or ... the Mac mini"
18:01:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Fun fact: Debian stills offers the latest kernel compiled for the 486. You know, in case you don't have an i686 or better, i.e. Pentium Pro or newer, i.e. any processor since November 1995.
18:01:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:02:47 <elliott> I feel so stupid for getting rid of that old box; it would have ran BSD or Linux or something.
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18:04:56 <nooga> i've made a pretty picture
18:04:59 <nooga> http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7735/budda.png
18:05:30 <Slereah_> No you didn't, that is a fractal :V
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18:06:41 <elliott> nooga: huh, it seems like a photo somehow or something.
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18:20:13 <Sgeo> Do iPhones dream of walled-in electric sheep?
18:21:13 * Sgeo accidentally kick-evades
18:22:05 * Sgeo wonders if there are people who'd fall for that
18:44:31 <pikhq> God, Debian used to be *ridiculously* slow to update.
18:44:58 <pikhq> Their last release without Linux 2.2 was made in 2005.
18:45:58 <pikhq> It was entirely possible for a Debian user to upgrade from Linux 2.2 to Linux 2.6, entirely skipping 2.4.
18:50:14 <Gregor> This also means people could skip right over devfs and to udev.
18:50:23 <Gregor> So, y'know, silver lining or something?
18:51:14 <Gregor> elliott: I especially love that you fake-opped the wrong nick.
18:51:30 <elliott> Gregor: ehird is, uh, the, uh
18:51:43 * elliott has kicked Gregor (FUCK YOU)
19:01:15 <Sgeo> It's scary that I didn't notice
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19:03:25 * Phantom_Hoover realises the Debian releases are named after Toy Story characters.
19:03:54 * Sgeo experiments on Phantom_Hoover
19:04:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You just now realised it?
19:04:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And unstable is called sid for a reason...
19:04:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It breaks shit.
19:05:01 <Sgeo> Sid Dabster </not-toy-story>
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19:46:49 <elliott> Anyone feel like fixing the snowman on http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird? :P
19:47:29 <elliott> pikhq: IT IS except the snowman is too high.
19:47:36 <elliott> I assume you mean my page.
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19:47:40 <pikhq> The UN Human Rights Council is currently reviewing the US's human rights record.
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20:06:06 <elliott> ERROR: wget failed to download http://people.debian.org/~bartm/flashplugin-nonfree/fp10.sha512.amd64.pgp.asc
20:06:06 <elliott> More information might be available at:
20:06:06 <elliott> http://wiki.debian.org/FlashPlayer
20:06:31 <elliott> The package in unstable http://packages.debian.org/sid/flashplugin-nonfree is suitable for Lenny (stable) and Squeeze (testing).
20:06:35 <elliott> "On amd64 the 64 bit preview release 10.2.161.23 is installed."
20:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, what was the name of that Swedish kernel.org mirror?
20:11:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can get it in Software Sources.
20:11:27 <elliott> No need to edit sources.list directly.
20:11:38 <elliott> (which I'd tend to avoid out of fear anyway).
20:11:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, that selects a crappy one.
20:11:59 <elliott> Make sure you select http, not ftp.
20:12:12 <elliott> The last one in SE, in fact.
20:15:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't determine it's *the* fastest, but I've tried various servers in my time and Swedish ones are the fastest.
20:15:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And kernel.org servers have a phat pipe and are also really reliable, of course.
20:15:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Who knows? Probably.
20:16:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It maxes out my connection, at least.
20:18:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, Orange. I heavily recommend against them.
20:18:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And heavily endorse http://www.bogons.net/.
20:18:33 <elliott> Strongly, I guess, not heavily. Whatever.
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20:22:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, uh, yes, can't get cable here. And all the cable ISPs suck major ass.
20:22:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:23:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Besides, ADSL2+++++++++++++ gets all 24 megs and whatnot!
20:23:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And if you want more than that, get fibre optic, you lazy bum.
20:23:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: (Note: Bogons' ADSL2+ service is hideously expensive.)
20:23:31 <elliott> Since it's part of the business services.
20:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> Wait, maybe I can just tunnel under the street for a short distance.
20:26:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It is unlikely that there is fibre optic on your street. :P
20:29:01 <Vorpal> elliott, did you buy minecraft?
20:29:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Not yet! I'm not sure Java will like it.
20:29:20 <elliott> Vorpal: As soon as I verify that it will I will.
20:29:57 <Vorpal> elliott, not like it in what way?
20:30:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Stuttery audio, graphics performance.
20:30:18 <elliott> (I had to set the fog to the second-nearest setting in Classic to get acceptable performance.)
20:30:33 <elliott> Being an applet is probably partly to blame, and I imagine Alpha's code is more solid, but still.
20:31:05 <coppro> elliott: so there was this news story i wanted you to complain about but you werent here so you couldnt then i forgot what the news story was
20:31:33 <elliott> coppro: and the sky the sky it is made of red hot lava and it fell down from the sky onto the floor and we all slept but it was really actually dying not sleeping because the lava burned us to death
20:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Further investigation implies that I might actually have a fiber-optic cable under my street.
20:32:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
20:32:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You get to choose between: (1) BT (2) Virgin Media. Well, at least if the situation is the same as in England.
20:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well... I found an old version of alpha at a certain bay (and a link to the linux version in a comment), on my desktop it works as long as I set "fast graphics". But that is nvidia and emu10k...
20:32:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Probably the two worst ISPs.
20:32:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You really don't want to be on Virgin.
20:33:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For instance, their CEO has called net neutrality "a load of bollocks".
20:33:25 <elliott> "and he's promised to put any website or service that won't pay Virgin a premium to reach its customers into the "Internet bus lane."" (-- boing boing, but still)
20:33:27 <coppro> so have most isps all they want is monies
20:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it does NOT work well on the pentium-m dell with pre-HD audio. Well sound works fine. But 3-5 FPS is not so fun
20:33:38 <elliott> also coppro has lost his shift key
20:33:48 <coppro> no i just decided punctuation is bad today
20:33:56 <coppro> i need to save it all for the code party later
20:33:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I'll try it out. That... Warzone somethingsomething game worked smoothly at full resolution; Minecraft can't be more complex than that, right?!>?!?!!
20:34:05 <elliott> coppro: capitals arent punctuation
20:34:07 <coppro> i am disappointed i have to use a slash to change windows
20:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, like I said, I have absolutely no say in the matter.
20:35:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah, and they tested Phorm without telling anyone.
20:35:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well who knows. Want the direct link to the linux one linked?
20:35:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, I was about to search but sure :P
20:36:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and if you're not quite hardcore enough for Bogons I recommend BE.
20:37:06 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that, given a COBOL program that reads a file, you can say things about the file's structure that you can't with most languages
20:37:38 <coppro> like it is sufficiently simple to be read by a cobol program maybe
20:37:52 <elliott> coppro: you are cooler without caps
20:38:02 <pikhq> Hmm. To try and get a second computer running or not...
20:38:09 <coppro> im also being more banjooie today
20:38:18 <coppro> bonus points for working out what it means
20:38:19 <Sgeo> COBOL has to predeclare the structure of files, right?
20:38:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it might be a good language to learn for career-ness
20:38:48 <Sgeo> And it seems interesting
20:38:55 <elliott> Sgeo: YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON
20:39:10 <Sgeo> I didn't say "good", did I?
20:39:14 <Sgeo> Just.. interesting
20:39:25 <elliott> Sgeo: I HOPE SPIKES RAPE YOUR BEING
20:39:28 <Sgeo> Places stil use COBOL, don't they?
20:39:35 <elliott> Sgeo: Places still use *horrible, horrible* COBOL.
20:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> AND OF COURSE IT DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF THE LOWER-CASE LETTER.
20:39:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I thought it was case-insensitive
20:40:36 <coppro> SPIKES SPIKES SPIKES OH GOD THE SPIKES
20:40:42 <Sgeo> As a convention?
20:42:18 <elliott> coppro: what are the flatulences
20:42:36 <elliott> coppro: SO HOW'Z MY ARTICLE DOING
20:47:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: NOT AS A CONVENTION. IT PREDATES LOWER-CASE LETTERS.
20:48:09 <Sgeo> There's a 2002 standard
20:48:19 <Sgeo> Should I bother with it, or does it ruin the historicalness
20:54:05 <pikhq> Sgeo: COBOL IS ONLY WORTH LEARNING IF YOU WANT TO KEEP ABSURDLY OLD SYSTEMS RUNNING.
20:54:14 <pikhq> SGEO: AKA, YOU WISH TO NO LONGER HAVE A SOUL.
20:54:29 <Sgeo> Some young people have to learn COBOL eventually
20:54:45 <Sgeo> *SOME YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE TO LEARN COBOL EVENTUALLY
20:55:59 <nooga> 18:05 < Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, what's the fractal?
20:56:16 <nooga> but rendered in abuddhabrot way
20:56:42 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhabrot
20:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, WHY IS COBOL IN ENGLISH, NOT LATIN, IF IT PREDATES LOWER-CASE?
20:57:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: IT PREDATES ENCODING OF LOWER-CASE ON COMPUTERS.
20:57:21 <nooga> i'm attempting to render it using a little cluster that i've built
20:57:32 <Sgeo> (THE DESIGNERS COULD NOT THINK OF A CLEVER LEGEND OF ZELDA HINT)
20:57:39 <elliott> nooga: can I use your cluster for shit
20:58:01 <nooga> no, because macines belong to my university
20:58:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: If young people don't learn COBOL, then it will finally die.
20:58:22 <Sgeo> pikhq, what about all the code that needs to be maintained
20:58:28 <nooga> so nobody can access it from the outside
20:58:30 <Sgeo> Are those businesses supposed to just die?
20:58:39 <elliott> Sgeo is the worst person in the world
20:58:41 <Sgeo> Or, at least, have business logic transferred to a different language
20:58:46 <nooga> even i have to go to the uni to use it
20:58:50 <Sgeo> Someone needs to be able to read it, at least
20:58:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: Do these businesses still use 50 year old everything else?
20:59:21 <Sgeo> pikhq, imagine IE 6 in 50 years
20:59:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: Some things become obsolete. Businesses should deal with it.
20:59:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: And COBOL was obsolete 30 years ago.
20:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, so the algorithm is to increment a pixel based on how many paths that end in the set go through it?
21:00:14 <Sgeo> Why, exactly, is there a 2002 standard? Not claiming COBOL isn't obsolete, I'm just curious
21:00:28 <nooga> and the color is obtained by rendering with different bailout values separately for R,G and B and mixing the channels
21:00:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: Because some morons felt like trying to make it not obsolete by adding the latest buzzwords.
21:01:10 <nooga> it's pretty but i doubt it has some interesting properties
21:01:13 <pikhq> It supports XML and OOP.
21:03:10 <pikhq> Also, the COBOL spec broke backwards compatibility with what was used for really old systems back in '85...
21:03:35 <pikhq> Meaning that you would need to rewrite things just to use a modern COBOL implementation.
21:03:48 <pikhq> At which point you might as well use a better language, like any language newer than it.
21:03:51 <nooga> if you've known COBOL in the old years
21:04:02 <nooga> you were like a god
21:04:29 <pikhq> I mean, dear God the fucking language was designed by Grace Hopper. That's fucking *old*.
21:04:44 <Sgeo> Any modern COBOL implementations use a pre-85 spec?
21:04:57 <pikhq> (you may know Grace Hopper for inventing the programming language.)
21:05:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, Xmarks is back?
21:06:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not really, but IBM mainframes retain binary compatibility.
21:06:48 <Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
21:06:59 <pikhq> They still make them.
21:07:41 <Sgeo> Ok, but how much do they cost?
21:08:35 <pikhq> They can run several thousand Linux VMs at once.
21:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please stop doing such awful things to interrogative statements.
21:10:13 <Sgeo> Next, you'll want me to stop verbing nouns?
21:13:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: Oh, and if you want to run *really* old mainframe programs, you could reasonably do it for no cost. Some of the older versions of the OS for them are public domain or free of charge.
21:13:47 <pikhq> And some crazy bastards wrote an emulator.
21:14:04 <Sgeo> Was about to ask.. well, I wasn't, because it sounded like a stupid question
21:15:27 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
21:15:41 <elliott> <Sgeo> Was about to ask.. well, I wasn't, because it sounded like a stupid question
21:15:44 <elliott> Since when does that stop you?
21:15:55 <HackEgo> 253|<Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
21:16:38 <Sgeo> How much would a 70s era mainframe cost today?
21:16:39 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOW-MATIC
21:17:00 <Sgeo> "Defining Files in advance, and separating into INPUT and OUTPUT files."
21:17:10 <Sgeo> I still think that that's arguably a nice feature of COBOL
21:17:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Probably quite a lot, due to being a museum piece.
21:18:14 <Sgeo> Ok, how much would one of the early widespread-use mainframes cost today/
21:21:43 <Sgeo> In terms of purchasing a physical machine, although sure, net power too
21:21:50 <pikhq> Uh, seems a few thousand dollars.
21:22:11 <pikhq> There really weren't that many of them made, y'know.
21:22:33 <Sgeo> When were there many mainframes being made?
21:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, in terms of net power, all of £0.00 (that's $0.00).
21:22:40 <elliott> When did the Pope shit in the woods?
21:22:45 <elliott> When did a bear convert to Catholicism?
21:22:53 <elliott> When did Sgeo stop asking incessant questions without Googling first?
21:23:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I believe that £0.00 = $79.44.
21:23:12 <pikhq> At about the same time that it seemed like a good idea to scrap the damned things for their metal when replaced.
21:24:12 <pikhq> Seems a system 390 is going to be the oldest machine you can find working. And that's a few thousand bucks.
21:26:39 <pikhq> The system 390s are also going to be the oldest machines that you could actually get working without creating a well air-conditioned room and having an electrician come in to install a three-phase power hookup.
21:30:21 * Sgeo looks up specs
21:30:40 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ESA/390 ?
21:30:46 <Sgeo> That says 1990
21:33:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, get an emulator. It'll run way faster and be much easier.
21:33:47 <Sgeo> I'm not allowed to be curious about old machines?
21:34:08 <Sgeo> Althogh yeah, I was fantasizing about buying something, but I have many fantasizes
21:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Please, for everyone's sanity, go no further down that road.
21:36:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, go no further down the road of describing my fantasies?
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21:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, I found a paper describing CAs on spherical topologies.
21:52:01 <pikhq> Sgeo: Grab Hercules and install Debian on it.
21:52:37 <pikhq> That's the emulator.
21:52:49 <nooga> Sgeo i tried to buy Odra
21:53:12 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odra_(computer)
21:53:27 <nooga> Odra 1305 with 2 processors and stuff
21:53:44 <nooga> the last one was decommisioned in June this year
21:54:11 <nooga> they wanted to get rid of it and probably throw it away
21:54:46 <Sgeo> I thought someone said 360
21:54:54 <Sgeo> Hercules says 390
21:55:09 <elliott> pikhq: New hobby: Emulators + Debian.
21:55:10 <Sgeo> The 390 is another thing it can emulate.. I think
21:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I am steadily convincing myself that an invasion is ongoing outside my house.
21:56:30 <nooga> z/Linux should be working fine
21:57:10 * elliott looks for the list of old debian releases
21:57:18 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently buzz is not nearly the oldest Debian.
21:57:25 <elliott> So I wonder if that's the first one to use Toy Story release names?
21:58:16 <elliott> "starting at version 1.1, debian releases have been named after a character in the movie Toy Story, a trend which continues to the present"
21:58:49 <elliott> Apparently there are older releases.
22:00:51 <elliott> I think we should email oerjan.
22:01:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: Hercules emulates a Series z mainframe.
22:01:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Which is of course compatible all the way back to System/360.
22:04:23 <elliott> Someone ought to fix http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird :P
22:05:11 <Gregor> I vote no so many times.
22:05:55 <elliott> Gregor: You just don't appreciate the AWESOME.
22:06:13 <elliott> All it needs is a spacing fix for the snowman!
22:06:40 <elliott> Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 <oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no>: Recipient address rejected: User account has expired (state 14).
22:09:38 <Sgeo> What's the recipient domain?
22:10:04 <elliott> Sgeo: A server -- I think the computer science club -- of his (ex-)university.
22:12:09 <Sgeo> Do we know what causes accounts to expire on that server?
22:12:22 <elliott> No. He got his Ph.D. many years ago, so it's not that he's left or anything.
22:12:40 <Sgeo> We could email someone there to ask
22:12:42 <elliott> I will see if I can email NVG.
22:15:40 <elliott> I've sent an email to their support.
22:19:30 <olsner> elliott: you have oerjan's email?
22:20:00 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%C3%98rjan_Johansen -> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ (which I knew) -> http://oerjan.nvg.org/ -> oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no
22:20:06 <elliott> It is, as I said, expired.
22:20:34 <elliott> http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://nvg.org/index.php%3Flink%3Domnvg%26sublink%3Dkontakt&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhjR_3qM6CRengj-UdptFmksQE5RVQ I don't know if support@nvg.ntnu.no was the right one to pick out of all those emails (I only saw support and drift on the other page I got it from), but I'm sure they can forward it on if required.
22:22:06 <olsner> ooh, goodbye horses is a really nice song
22:22:16 <olsner> (from silence of the lambs)
22:22:37 <olsner> hehe, and 'lambs' almost became 'lambdas' there
22:25:28 <olsner> my student e-mail is also expired since a couple of years back
22:25:47 <elliott> olsner: still. he used it up to present i think
22:27:47 <olsner> but you only say that because you're YOOOOUUUNG :P
22:29:32 <elliott> anyway you're uhh, i guessed it right before
22:29:37 <elliott> SEE HE'S EVEN OLDER THAN YOU
22:29:44 <elliott> My logic, it is infallible.
22:30:20 <elliott> olsner: SEE EVEN YOU AGREE NOW
22:30:33 <olsner> yeah, that is much too old for comfort
22:30:45 <elliott> if you didn't say he was old you'd become that old yourself
22:30:53 <elliott> olsner: we don't know cpressey's age for sure :P
22:31:35 <olsner> isn't that in public records somewhere?
22:31:37 <elliott> olsner: we know he was in his teens in the 80s and ran some BBSes in... I think he gave some year range... when he was 16 and I'm starting to realise that a good memory ends up making you look like a stalker
22:31:55 <olsner> at least in sweden you can look up people's birth dates from names
22:32:15 <elliott> well he's canadian i think
22:32:34 <olsner> canada is in america, duh
22:32:53 <Sgeo> elliott is a stalker?
22:33:01 * Sgeo attempts to erase his name from elliott's memory
22:33:17 <elliott> olsner: but not in the united states of :P
22:34:45 * olsner is suddenly struck by the feeling of having something extremely relevant to say
22:34:51 <olsner> can't remember what though :/
22:36:01 <pikhq> elliott: So, I've discovered something.
22:36:11 <olsner> starch and cheese: good combination
22:36:14 <pikhq> elliott: The US release of Monty Python's Flying Circus had *really* shitty video quality.
22:36:30 <elliott> Your face has really shitty video quality.
22:36:42 <pikhq> It's like they used a VHS tape for the source material or something.
22:36:47 <olsner> elliott: or mac-n-cheese
22:37:12 <pikhq> elliott: PAL release looks quite a bit better.
22:41:42 <pikhq> elliott: What's especially "fun" is that the US release actually did a 25i->30i conversion for portions that were originally done 24p. Really. It's 24p->25i->30i converted.
22:51:24 <pikhq> Huh. Wikipedia romanises スーパー・ヴィエイチエス as Sūpāvu~ieichiesu. Which is pronounced as something like "Sūpā vi eichi esu". Non-standard kana seems to really fuck up their ideas of romanisation.
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22:57:41 <pikhq> (I'd romanise it as sûhą̂ ùīeitiesu, and god was it a pain trying to just get the appropriate combining character for that)
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23:00:37 <olsner> pikhq: eh, but 'h' in suha? or did you intend some of the combining characters to indicate the plosive variant?
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23:01:45 <pikhq> olsner: The ogonek or cedilla indicates the plosive variant.
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23:02:52 <pikhq> Yes, the dakuten and handakuten in my romanisation go on the vowel.
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23:03:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: oerjan missing; PANIC | *cringe* record: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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23:03:56 <pikhq> Thus allowing it to work just the same when it's applied to a consonantless kana in a non-standard usage of kana.
23:03:56 <olsner> and sebbu is running in circles, clearly devoted to the panic in the topic
23:04:23 <olsner> oh, can you have han/dakuten on such kana?
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23:04:31 <olsner> how does that get pronounced?
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23:04:54 <pikhq> ヴ is usually used to indicate "V" in transcriptions.
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23:05:43 <pikhq> ヴァヴィヴヴェヴォ for the "va vi vu ve vo" morae.
23:05:44 <olsner> hmm, I seem to be missing the fonts
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23:06:01 <olsner> probably due to elliott telling me to uninstall my fonts because there were better fonts
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23:06:56 <pikhq> It also handles the kana usage in non-Japanese languages...
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23:07:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uh, quitting
23:07:37 <elliott> before that just saying something, nothing pertinent
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23:07:54 <elliott> 10.10.21:20:18:59 <oerjan> sheesh, fission does not release energy for elements < iron, pikhq
23:07:54 <elliott> 10.10.21:20:25:24 <oerjan> well more or less.
23:07:54 <elliott> 10.10.21:20:26:36 <oerjan> although the "helium mines" _was_ a joke
23:07:54 <elliott> 10.10.21:20:46:20 <oerjan> catseye: which might be why it's wrong
23:08:06 <elliott> if his email account is gone
23:08:08 <elliott> then his shell account will be too
23:08:11 <elliott> and that's how he accessed irc
23:08:15 <olsner> he ran off trying to set up a helium mine?
23:08:16 <elliott> it could just be a server thing
23:08:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he came in on the 22nd too but just join and then quit
23:08:41 <elliott> just an hour and a bit apart
23:08:49 <elliott> 10.10.22:07:18:00 --- quit: oerjan (Quit: leaving)
23:08:49 <elliott> 10.10.23:14:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm surprised oerjan hasn't cracked down on them.
23:08:56 <elliott> you mentioned him first after that :P
23:09:18 <pikhq> For instance, "アイヌ・イタㇰ" can be romanised as "ainu itak̅u", but can't be encoded at all in any other romanisation scheme that I know of...
23:09:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that explains why he hadn't cracked down on them.
23:09:31 <elliott> so it's been 15 days since he talked
23:09:57 <pikhq> (well, except for an Ainu-specific scheme based on pronunciation)
23:10:10 <pikhq> elliott: "ainu itak̅u" in my scheme.
23:10:25 <pikhq> "Ainu language" in Ainu.
23:11:35 <pikhq> (Ainu is a non-Japonic language, but happens to be native to the island of Hokkaidō, hence the kana orthography)
23:15:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: For the gojuuon (your standard kana chart), I use the "ordinary" romanisation.
23:17:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: A grave on the vowel is a dakuten (the voiced consonant diacritic). A cedilla or ogonek on the vowel is a handakuten (the plosive consonant diacritic). A macron on the start of the kana indicates that it's small. A circumflex on the vowel indicates that it's long.
23:17:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ' is a shorthand for t̅u.
23:17:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh. One other thing. The moraic n is romanised as "nn".
23:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, damn you, I'm now trying to install Debian 5.something on Hercules.
23:18:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Good luck :P
23:18:36 <pikhq> So, basically, it's a highly pedantic encoding of kana.
23:18:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try an older Debian.
23:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if I could *get* the image, that would be a start.
23:19:25 <pikhq> elliott: Debian still supports System z.
23:19:30 <pikhq> elliott: To this day.
23:19:31 <elliott> What problem are you having?
23:19:34 <elliott> pikhq: The ports can bitrot sometimes.
23:19:51 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, not really.
23:19:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, Debian is like 40 CDs.
23:20:18 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/s390/iso-cd/
23:20:24 <elliott> (lol @ kde and xfce/lxde CDs)
23:20:34 <pikhq> elliott: A package failing on a port in unstable prevents it from going to testing on *any* port.
23:21:00 <pikhq> elliott: Assuming, of course, the package is set to build for that.
23:21:24 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but that doesn't mean the whole system will actually install and run properly or anything. :P
23:21:38 <olsner> I guess I'll just have to stop watching this shite and wait another year for episodes with contents again
23:21:52 <pikhq> elliott: Also, the System z port is actually used.
23:22:18 <pikhq> elliott: Thousands of VMs at once, hells yeah.
23:22:38 <olsner> elliott: yeah, I know...
23:24:31 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: naruto shippuuden
23:25:16 <elliott> I guessed just from the excessive filler :P
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23:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, which files do I actually download for Debian s390?
23:26:03 <elliott> [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-1.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 648M
23:26:03 <elliott> [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-2.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 638M
23:26:03 <elliott> [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-3.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 648M
23:26:04 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/s390/iso-cd/
23:26:09 <elliott> You don't need the update discs.
23:26:16 <elliott> Or the alternative desktop environments.
23:26:21 <olsner> I actually think it's good, but only if you skip the fillers because the fillers really suck
23:32:28 <elliott> I propose a project to create a portable, 8-bit MMU-less Unix clone.
23:32:40 <elliott> What Linux and NetBSD did for everything else, we shall do for the 80s!
23:33:09 <elliott> LUnix? Move over! 8-bit Atari? YOU'RE GONNA GET SOME FUCKIN' UNIX
23:35:56 <elliott> Clearly it should be written in (C--)--, aka C -= 2.
23:36:31 <elliott> Conveniently, C-= sort of looks like the Commodore logo.
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23:41:46 <zzo38> Now I write a program GF-Magick to use METAFONT with ImageMagick.
23:42:05 <zzo38> Do you like red and green show on television?
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