00:05:52 <nooga> MMU-less units are the best!
00:06:06 <coppro> zzo38: duct tape forever!
00:06:51 <elliott> nooga: hey what was that computer you built? 8086?
00:06:53 <coppro> code party is starting
00:06:57 <elliott> coppro: that was punctuation
00:07:01 <elliott> coppro: so was "-" in agora email you are BAD
00:07:02 <coppro> if you think i used punctuation you are committing treason
00:07:14 <coppro> no against the computer
00:07:31 <elliott> coppro: dude talk like this all the time, you're so much cooler
00:08:27 <coppro> your lack of treason is appreciated by the computer
00:08:42 <coppro> you might receive increased security clearance if you keep it up
00:08:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Now get the other two. :P
00:08:52 <elliott> coppro: punctuation is for FAGS
00:09:05 <coppro> elliott are they commie mutant traitor fags?
00:09:16 <elliott> coppro: yes. also, bedwetting
00:09:38 <coppro> elliott thank you for reporting the fags for treason you are now red security clearance
00:09:43 <coppro> and are now a troubleshooter
00:11:19 <elliott> nooga is ashamed of his creation
00:18:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lawl, debian is still on firefox^Wiceweasel 3.5
00:22:09 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:30:40 -!- jcp has joined.
00:31:40 <pikhq> elliott: Why is testing on 3.5‽
00:31:56 <pikhq> Came out several months before the freeze.
00:33:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:35:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You may have more fun with the MIPS port; qemu's MIPS emulator works, although it was better in 0.10 or whatever.
00:35:19 <elliott> And besides, it's a Microsoft Jazz.
00:35:24 <elliott> How can you resist such a platform?
00:36:27 <elliott> pikhq: Do you support my portable 8-bit MMUless Unix project idea? Y/N
00:36:41 <pikhq> elliott: Y, but I don't want to work on it. :P
00:36:50 <elliott> pikhq: But 6502 asm! Everyone loves that!
00:37:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:37:33 <elliott> The S390 killed Phantom_Hoover.
00:38:37 <elliott> pikhq: And hey, we get to use our OWN LANGUAGE! Because the C compilers are all heavily machine-specific and the like. :P
00:42:16 <elliott> fizzie: Can VICE do a serial cable?
00:43:53 <elliott> Hmm, Lunix can do Atari too.
00:55:02 <Gregor> INSTALLING DEBIAN ON CHIPAD
00:58:00 <elliott> Gregor: (1) Why did you buy that (2) Can I have it
00:58:33 <Gregor> 1) A friend of mine bought it because he's an idiot, I bought it off of him for $50 because I'm an idiot, but only half as much an idiot as he is by pricE :P
00:58:40 <Gregor> 2) If you buy it for at least $25 + shipping :P
00:59:23 <elliott> Things you don't expect to see on a Commodore 64: "EXTRACTING CD.HTML (OK)"
01:01:41 <elliott> Gregor: I swear, the developer of LUnix, upon thinking "I need to document my Commodore 64 Unix clone", thought immediately after, "in HTML".
01:02:33 <elliott> nooga: It's 16-bit, you motherfucker. How can you pledge allegiance to the RETROMACHINES?
01:02:39 <elliott> Gregor: So is it... any good? :P
01:02:47 <elliott> Oh great, kernel panic. All that extraction for nothing.
01:02:54 <Gregor> elliott: The problems are all really stupid problems.
01:02:56 <elliott> I could have just put it into warp mode.
01:03:01 <Gregor> elliott: It's a bit slow, but quite usable if you don't do too much at once.
01:03:04 <elliott> Gregor: That ... says nothing.
01:03:10 <Gregor> elliott: I'm continuing :P
01:03:16 <elliott> Gregor: Is it resistive or capacitive?
01:03:27 <Gregor> Resistive, of course. We're talking about a $100 tablet here X-D
01:03:51 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me it was a bitch to get Debian on.
01:04:02 <Gregor> LET ME FINISH TELLING ITS FLAWS GEEZE :P
01:04:04 <elliott> Gregor: You see, it was on the Ubisurfer, and I just don't want an inferior experience.
01:04:23 <Gregor> elliott: The real problems are: 1) The rotation sensor is pretty bad, it likes to hang in landscape mode, 2) IT HAS NO FREAKING OFF BUTTON X_X
01:04:39 <Gregor> I mean even a screen-off button.
01:04:40 <elliott> Gregor: It seems, uh, rather low resolution :P
01:04:49 <Gregor> elliott: You don't even know what device I'm referring to :P
01:04:56 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?152867-China-launches-Linux-based-Chi-pad
01:05:16 <elliott> "Calibrating delay loop.. 0.37 BogoMIPS"
01:05:31 <Gregor> elliott: 1) No, that one's more expensive and better than the one I have :P
01:05:49 <Gregor> elliott: 2) For 7-inch, 800xwhatever isn't too bad.
01:06:02 <elliott> Gregor: yours is *worse* than that? :D
01:06:57 <elliott> Also, how much is shipping to the UK from there?
01:07:02 <elliott> I'm actually considering buying it from you :P
01:07:14 <elliott> Because I, too, am an idiot.
01:07:23 <Gregor> I have no idea what the shipping would be. It has 1GB internal, I have a 2GB SD card I'd throw in :P
01:07:38 <Gregor> This screen is 800x480 btw.
01:07:52 <Gregor> Just a sec, I can link this actual device :P
01:08:20 * Sgeo should learn A*. What it is, how to use it
01:08:26 <Gregor> elliott: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42071
01:08:45 <Gregor> elliott: Bizarrely, the feature list is all correct on that page.
01:09:48 <elliott> Gregor: Wow, this looks beyond awful :P
01:09:56 <Gregor> IT'S BEYOND AWESOME(ly awful)
01:10:04 <elliott> Gregor: Are you actually going to use it?
01:10:13 <elliott> If I don't cruelly snatch it away.
01:10:33 <Gregor> Well, I bought it months ago, and I've only used it to surf the web in bed and now to see if I can install Debian on it :P
01:10:36 <elliott> Gregor: I consider the device broken if it doesn't ship with whatever fucked up modified Android it came with, btw :P
01:10:54 <elliott> GET YOUR RESET ... USB ... STICK ...
01:10:57 <Gregor> Uhhh, of course it ships with Android ...
01:11:06 <elliott> Gregor: But you're putting Debian on.
01:11:17 <Gregor> I'm putting Debian on a chroot :P
01:11:27 <elliott> Gregor: Oh. That's what I did with the Ubisurfer!
01:11:43 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I'll totally get my Ubisurfer repaired (I, uh, bricked it) and we can TRADE.
01:11:47 <Gregor> I have an identical Debian install on my phone :P
01:11:59 <elliott> Gregor: You give me your tablet, I give you a £129 (or in that region) ARM-based netbook! It has a KEYBOARD!
01:12:13 <elliott> Gregor: And it comes with the worst browser in the world and no don't argue.
01:12:35 <elliott> Gregor: It communicates, via GPRS, to one of their servers, which renders the page, with IE (yup, Windows-running IE farms), and sends back a compressed image of the result.
01:12:50 <elliott> Gregor: Input fields and links are handled with something like an olde-style image map, I would assume.
01:12:58 <elliott> Gregor: (It also comes with Firefox)
01:15:12 <zzo38> I read most of TeX: The Program, already.
01:15:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:15:36 <Sgeo> elliott... why?
01:17:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Because Firefox only works on Wi-Fi and this is meant to be FREE FOREVER.
01:17:25 <elliott> Gregor: How can you pass up the chance to get a hold of it?
01:17:37 <Sgeo> Weird definition of polynomial time: It has an nth derivative that = 0
01:17:49 <Gregor> Woooh, Debian installed!
01:17:55 <Sgeo> Erm, "time for weird definition", not definition of "polynomial time"
01:17:58 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and wanna know the OS? Android? NO
01:18:01 * Gregor installs ... hmm ... icewm?
01:18:10 <elliott> Gregor: It's what I like to call Bastebian.
01:18:39 <elliott> Gregor: They took Debian, installed their software, hacked it up in numerous to work with their hardware, gave it a /linuxrc-based bootloader, and then took out all of what makes Debian, Debian.
01:18:48 <elliott> Gregor: This includes dpkg.
01:19:16 <elliott> Gregor: What I am saying is: Dude, trade.
01:19:40 <Sgeo> Why would Firefox only work with Wifi
01:19:47 <Sgeo> That makes no sense whatsoever
01:19:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Because the only other thing it has his GPRS.
01:20:03 <elliott> Which is only to their IE-servers.
01:20:24 <Sgeo> ....why only to their IE-servers?
01:20:36 <Sgeo> Is it part of some weird agreement or something?
01:20:39 <elliott> Because that's how they wanted it.
01:21:01 <Sgeo> <elliott> STOP MAKING UP WORDS AND SOUNDING LIKE A CREATURE
01:24:01 <elliott> pikhq: Wow, Debian GNU/Hurd is about as old as apt.
01:24:09 <elliott> Gregor: You should install a tiling WM, just for the sheer insanity.
01:24:13 <elliott> Gregor: (Note: You may want a mouse-based tiling WM)
01:24:20 <elliott> Gregor: ((Note: Nobody's created one yet))
01:25:15 <Gregor> I'm well aware of that.
01:25:18 <Gregor> Having searched for one before.
01:25:56 <elliott> Gregor: Funny, because I have the perfect design for one, YOU SHOULD IMPLEMENT IT[shot]
01:28:25 <Sgeo> WRITE IT IN COBOL
01:28:29 <Sgeo> </NONSENSICAL>
01:29:33 <zzo38> Does COBOL even have functions for that purpose? I think COBOL is only for common business computations.
01:32:06 <Sgeo> DISPLAY TEXT-OUT
01:32:12 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is that missing a .
01:32:18 <Sgeo> http://404i.com/cobol/basics.html
01:32:49 <pikhq> elliott: Huh, so it is.
01:33:01 <pikhq> elliott: It's weird to think that apt is actually relatively young.
01:33:12 <elliott> pikhq: Like mid-90s, no? :P
01:33:59 <pikhq> elliott: Mere 10 years.
01:34:08 <pikhq> *God* dselect sucks.
01:34:40 <elliott> $ sudo aptitude install dselect
01:35:53 <Sgeo> http://404i.com/cobol/4div-c.html
01:35:59 <Sgeo> This looks very... inflexible
01:36:16 <Sgeo> I SHOULD KEEP CAPS-LOCK ON WHEN TALKING ABOUT COBOL, REALLY
01:36:22 <elliott> Gregor: So are you up for a trade or not? :P
01:36:30 <elliott> Gregor: This device is ONLY available inside the UK, I think.
01:36:33 <elliott> Gregor: So, y'know, RARITY.
01:37:12 <Sgeo> WHY IS ZERO A KEYWORD?
01:37:25 <Gregor> elliott: What WM should I use?
01:37:43 <zzo38> Gregor: Write your own WM, then
01:37:45 <Gregor> I want something that's borderline-usable, but light :P
01:37:58 <elliott> Gregor: 9wm, aewm, or wm2/wmx.
01:38:02 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe so you don't get mixed up with "O"?
01:38:03 <elliott> Gregor: Those are your three (well, four) choices.
01:38:16 <elliott> Gregor: wm2 would be nice with the widescreen. aewm would be like 9wm but with a title bar.
01:38:49 <elliott> Gregor: Although 9wm and aewm are both heavily dependent on middle/right clicks.
01:39:07 <Gregor> Desktop-click menu, yes?
01:39:26 <Gregor> Hrm, no maximize button in wm{2,x}?
01:39:39 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SGEO.
01:39:44 <elliott> Gregor: None in wm2. Dunno about wmx.
01:39:45 * SGEO GIVES UP ON THIS PARTICULAR TUTORIAL
01:39:49 <elliott> Gregor: They're, uh, opinionated. (wmx less so.)
01:40:00 <Gregor> Yeaaaaaaaaaaah so Ice then :P
01:40:26 <Gregor> There's a wait regardless, I'm still installing the X server.
01:40:26 <elliott> Gregor: Ratpoison + a panel (fbpanel or whatever).
01:40:39 <Gregor> Ratpoison = keyboard-happy
01:40:44 <elliott> Gregor: Because there's no real point having multiple windows at once on such a screen, and the panel lets you switch windows without using the keyboard.
01:40:48 <elliott> Gregor: See the second part of my sentence :P
01:41:01 <Gregor> Since when does Ratpoison let you switch window w/o the keyboard?
01:41:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:41:21 <elliott> Gregor: When you use a panel application...?
01:42:06 <elliott> Gregor: jwm is a quite nice icewm-esque thing but its config file is xml so bleh.
01:42:26 <elliott> Gregor: What state are you in? I'ma look up shipping :P
01:42:44 <zzo38> Instead of implementing TeX, I can implement "XeX", which can be different (it might not pass the TRIP test, it won't implement \outer and \long, etc) but can produce DVI output with identical meaning from TeX when typesetting a correct (no error) TeX document (with a modified Plain TeX format that changes things to support TeX files
01:42:50 <SGEO> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/looking-job-security-try-cobol-426
01:42:58 <Gregor> elliott: fbpanel + ratpoison = fail
01:43:02 <zzo38> such as default extension, and \outer and \long, and so on)
01:43:15 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, it probably just tries to focus, not raise... or ratpoison refuses to be coerced :P
01:44:09 <elliott> Gregor: I have no idea how your country's postal system works.
01:44:36 <elliott> International Flat Rate Envelope
01:44:43 <elliott> Gregor: Would it fit in that? :P
01:44:47 <zzo38> Gregor: What country?
01:44:47 <elliott> Oh, wait, there's an EXPRESS one too.
01:44:49 <elliott> That's not quite PRIORITY.
01:44:56 <elliott> Is there a "slow" option? :P
01:45:10 <Gregor> elliott: Should, this isn't 4lbs.
01:45:19 <elliott> Gregor: It'd fit into an envelope, then?
01:45:23 <elliott> Gregor: What about the charger?
01:45:31 <Gregor> elliott: Just a small AC adapter, no problem.
01:45:41 <elliott> Plasma Mobile is the third environment. It is targeted at smartphones and small tablet devices that are mainly used via touch input. It is still being developed with the first stable release expected to be due in 2011, although individual KDE applications may be released earlier as part of the porting effort to MeeGo. Preview releases of the Kontact applications and a document viewer based on KOffice are already available.
01:45:45 <Gregor> elliott: I fear that it would get smashed, but other than that :P
01:46:20 <elliott> Gregor: What about 9 1/2" x 12 1/2"?
01:46:30 <Gregor> ... this is a 7" tablet.
01:46:34 <elliott> Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope* [More info about Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope*]
01:46:34 <elliott> Maximum Value for Contents: $400.00
01:46:34 <elliott> USPS Supplied Envelope: 9 1/2" x 12 1/2".
01:46:39 <Gregor> That's, like, way bigger than it needs to be :P
01:46:45 <elliott> Gregor: $13.45 at post office, $12.78 online.
01:46:57 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, surely that power adapter is US-only? :(
01:47:06 <elliott> I'll just get an adapter or never charge it ever
01:48:00 <elliott> Gregor: So as you'll clearly pay for the postage online, I can have that sweet piece of kit for $37.78. SWEET
01:48:24 <elliott> Actually £23.34 but whatever :P
01:48:52 <elliott> Plasma Tablet is a prototype implementation that combines elements from Plasma Netbook (notably its newspaper view) with elements from Plasma Mobile.
01:49:39 <elliott> Gregor: ...so, uhh, is it any good at browsing the web? :-P
01:50:17 <Gregor> It's not too bad, actually. Scrolling on big pages can be sort of slow, but it's not so bad on the screen size.
01:50:24 <Gregor> Images usually look shitty :P
01:51:01 <elliott> Gregor: Man, this thing has a slower CPU than new smartphones, a seemingly shittier-although-larger display compared to my iPhone, and a terrible touchscreen :P
01:51:11 <elliott> Gregor: If we could put a dollar value on frustration...
01:51:16 <elliott> ...this thing would cost a fuckton. I want it.
01:51:41 <elliott> Gregor: Well, isn't it 500 mhz?
01:51:46 <elliott> If not, HOLY SHIT IT HAS LOWER SPECS THAN THE UBISURFER.
01:51:57 <Gregor> Dude, I linked you to it :P
01:52:03 <elliott> Gregor: It quoted no CPU speed.
01:53:00 <Gregor> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42071
01:53:36 <elliott> Gregor: I... this is the worst thing, like, ever.
01:53:46 <Gregor> It's pretty entertaining though :P
01:54:03 <elliott> Gregor: The iPad currently sounds like the greatest device to ever be birthed, listening to this.
01:54:26 <elliott> MAY STEVE JOB'S LOINS ENVELOP ME
01:54:29 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me it has Flash.
01:54:39 <elliott> Gregor: It would be hilarious to watch it choke on EVERY FLASH EVER.
01:55:27 <elliott> Gregor: Okay then. WINDOWS CE
01:56:27 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, most power adapters these days are going to be 120V/240V simply because it's cheaper than making two adapter circuits. Honestly.
01:56:37 <elliott> pikhq: Yes but lack of child-saving safety prong,.
01:56:54 <pikhq> elliott: You would need to purchase a socket adapter, yes.
01:58:42 <pikhq> Isn't it annoying how many fucking sockets there are out there?
01:58:54 <pikhq> And volt/hertz combinations.
01:59:00 <Gregor> No, the more fucking-sockets the better chance of fucking.
02:00:14 * Gregor waits for pikhq to stop bashing his head into a wall.
02:00:30 <pikhq> Amusingly, the US is the only country using an international standard for their socket.
02:01:05 <pikhq> (the US socket was retroactively defined as *the* socket for 120v 60Hz power by the IEC, because we're the only people who insist on it.)
02:01:42 <Gregor> This is, however, another case of blaming America for having bad technology when it's really just because we had it first.
02:02:12 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm actually not calling it bad; it works pretty much as well as 240v 50Hz.
02:02:40 <Gregor> It hurts less when you lick wall sockets though.
02:02:40 <pikhq> Gregor: It's only annoying because it's *different*.
02:02:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Now Japan, on the other hand, that we can blame.
02:03:12 <pikhq> They use 100V power, 50Hz *or* 60Hz.
02:03:19 <Gregor> Japan and France. We can ALWAYS blame Japan and/or France.
02:03:32 <pikhq> Oh, France is unconditionally blamed.
02:08:32 <poiuy_qwert> would it be useless to release an OS X esolang interpreter?
02:18:03 <SGEO> COMPUTE DEMO-VAR = 2+2
02:22:35 * SGEO VAGUELY WONDERS WHAT STRING MANIPULATION IS LIKE IN COBOL
02:22:41 <SGEO> PROBABLY LIVING HELL
02:24:51 <SGEO> IT OCCURS TO ME THAT THE WORKING-STORAGE STUFF HELPS ENFORCE READABLE VARIABLE NAMES. IF YOU DON'T USE READABLE VARIABLE NAMES THERE, THE CODE BECOMES SO HOPELESSLY UNREADABLE NO ONE WOULD EVEN DREAM OF WRITING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE
02:26:33 <SGEO> OH, SO THAT'S WHY ZEROS EXIST (READING A GOOD TUTORIAL)
02:33:44 <elliott> SGEO: No, people just wrote code that hideous.
02:34:55 <pikhq> Okay, now that's actually kinda annoying. US power is actually 120V/240V. Driers and ovens get 240V for their heating elements.
02:35:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:36:14 <pikhq> I should be given the power to replace all standards.
02:36:46 <SGEO> HMM, NUMERIC EDITED CANNOT BE MOVED INTO NUMERIC EDITED
02:36:58 <Gregor> I swear Debian is faster than Android on this ...
02:37:27 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, Android actually has a VM going.
02:40:58 <pikhq> Okay, high-leg delta power distribution is really fucking clever. (the scheme that the US uses for power distribution)
02:41:24 <SGEO> I'D TRUST COBOL WITH CURRENCY WITH . THAN SOME MORON WRITING CODE IN JAVA MANIPULATING CURRENCY AS A FLOAT OR DOUBLE
02:41:32 <pikhq> It's got two AC hot lines and a single neutral line. The hot lines are half wavelength out of step.
02:41:59 <elliott> SGEO likes COBOL; discuss his increasing stupidity as time increases.
02:42:06 <pikhq> The upshot is that if you use just the two hot lines, you get perfect AC of twice the voltage of each individual line.
02:42:15 <pikhq> So, 120V/240V power distribution.
02:43:00 <SGEO> I WOUDN'T USE IT FOR ANYTHING MORE COMPLICATED THAN SOME MATH AND SIMPLE FLAT-FILE MANIPULATION
02:43:46 <pikhq> elliott: To be fair, he's only appreciating its decimal floating point. Which is one of the few useful things it has.
02:45:26 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:46:46 * Gregor proceeds to install xterm
02:48:43 <elliott> Gregor: Also Firefox. Don't argue.
02:48:46 <elliott> Gregor: Or better, Seamonkey.
02:52:10 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:52:24 <SGEO> WHAT IF I WANT A CONDITION NAME THAT CHECKS SEVERAL VARIABLES?
02:53:13 -!- wareya has joined.
02:54:08 <SGEO> DEAR TUTORIAL: STOP IT WITH THE UNREADABLE POWERPOINT ANIMATIONS
02:57:37 <SGEO> WELL, THIS POWERPOINT VIEWER THINGY FOR WINDOWS 95 WORKS ON WINDOWS 7
03:08:23 <SGEO> "Open subroutines. are useful because they allow a programmer to code a subroutine. without the formality or overhead involved in coding a Procedure or Function.
03:08:35 <SGEO> ..HOW IS THAT USEFUL? WHAT OVERHEAD/
03:09:24 <elliott> coppro: http://damnyouautocorrect.com/img/oh-poopy-autocorrect.jpg
03:11:10 <elliott> comex: I have an excellent idea.
03:23:12 <Gregor> elliott: Yeesh, xchat has a crapload of dependencies X-D
03:23:50 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, fine; thttpd.
03:24:16 <Gregor> Well on my way to Firefox now!
03:24:39 <zzo38> I am not very good at the C code golf. To do good at the C code golf at Anarchy Golf, it is necessary to make assumptions about the machine, and those things! But some of the other ones I did a good job sometime
03:24:43 <elliott> Gregor: I was joking, you moron :P Install Chromium.
03:24:58 <Gregor> elliott: libmozjs2d is (apparently) a dep of xchat.
03:25:05 <zzo38> SGEO: What does it mean "open subroutines"?
03:25:29 <SGEO> zzo38, execution can fall through to the next subroutine, depending on how you call the subroutin
03:25:52 <SGEO> Or if execution doesn't terminate by the time you reach it physically
03:26:47 <zzo38> SGEO: Do you mean like in machine code you might have a subroutine followed by the next one directly in memory, with no RETURN code in between?
03:27:06 <SGEO> Something like that, I think
03:27:34 <SGEO> Except in COBOL, one way of calling it ensures that it returns.. but if you don't terminate the program, the subroutine will be called again
03:27:43 <SGEO> And then the next one, without the return
03:27:44 <zzo38> Can you do that in any programming language other than assembly language? (If so, you have to have it omit prolog/epilog to make it working?)
03:28:00 <SGEO> FIRST-PARAGRAPH.
03:28:07 <SGEO> DISPLAY "FIRST".
03:28:26 <SGEO> Let me pastebin this actually
03:29:01 -!- calamari has joined.
03:31:40 <SGEO> http://ideone.com/i2WDC
03:32:12 <SGEO> So FIRST-PARA calls PERFORM SECOND-PARA, which performs the second paragraph and returns to the first
03:32:21 <zzo38> O, now I understand.
03:32:21 <SGEO> Then execution falls through to the second and third paragraphs
03:33:54 <elliott> Gregor: You're using armel right?
03:34:04 <Gregor> Nonono, you misunderstand.
03:34:08 <Gregor> Nothing is failing to install.
03:34:11 <Gregor> It's installing TOO MUCH.
03:34:11 <elliott> Oh, you just don't like it
03:34:13 <SGEO> The thingy complained at me about missing the 7 spaces in front
03:34:19 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:34:27 <SGEO> Or maybe it would have been ok if I skipped the line numbers, but I didn't try it
03:34:30 <elliott> Gregor: it probably depends on x-www-browser to open links
03:34:41 <Gregor> I didn't install the recommends!
03:34:48 <Gregor> Then again, I didn't pay any attention :P
03:35:43 <SGEO> No, that does not work
03:35:49 <SGEO> I need all those damn spaces
03:36:17 <Gregor> OK, after all that lunacy, I just need xvkbd.
03:37:09 <elliott> Gregor: Tell me you're using apt?
03:37:16 <elliott> You sound like you're doing it manually :P
03:37:21 <Gregor> "Linking and byte-compiling packages for runtime python2.6..."
03:37:24 <Gregor> Of course I'm using apt.
03:37:37 <Gregor> aptitude install xchat -> holy crap why do I have iceweasel
03:37:50 <elliott> fizzie: HALP HALP PALHPALHPALHP[L[LD[RTJ
03:37:53 <elliott> i am literally in seizures
03:38:57 <EgoBot> 1034 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>+++.--.>>.<<<+.>>>+.<<<.>>>+++++.<<++++++++.<---------------------------------------.--------------------------.>>----.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++.>--.----.<<----.<.>----.>>.<++++++++.<.>++.------.<<.>>+.>----.-------.+++++++++++++.---.<<<.>>>++.<<++++.<.>+.+++++++++.>--.<<.>+++++.>----------.---.<<.>>----.<+++.>>--------.<<----.----.--.--------.<.>>-------------------------------.++++.<<.>>+++++
03:39:38 <elliott> !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>+++.--.>>.<<<+.>>>+.<<<.>>>+++++.<<++++++++.<---------------------------------------.--------------------------.>>----.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++.>--.----.<<----.<.>----.>>.<++++++++.<.>++.------.<<.>>+.>----.-------.+++++++++++++.---.<<<.>>>++.<<++++.<.>+.+++++++++.>--.<<.>+++++.>----------.---.<<.>>----.<+++.>>--------.<<----.----.--.--------.<.>>-------------------------------.
03:39:39 <EgoBot> calamari: People always thank me for the awesome B
03:40:01 <elliott> Gregor: I guess it decided to say it again :P
03:40:41 <pikhq> elliott: Idea. Grey Mist icon set.
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03:40:54 <elliott> pikhq: Grey Mist icons = disable icons
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03:41:03 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not actually using Grey Mist right now :P
03:41:05 -!- EgoBot has joined.
03:41:05 <pikhq> elliott: Not really.
03:41:07 -!- elliott has left (?).
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03:41:17 <pikhq> elliott: What *are* you using, if not Grey Mist?
03:41:26 <elliott> pikhq: C... C... Clearlooks.
03:41:38 <pikhq> elliott: THE FEATURES, MAN, THE FEATURES.
03:41:40 <pikhq> elliott: HOW COULD YOU.
03:42:02 <pikhq> Also, a Grey Mist iconset would clearly be a very very minimal lineart icon set.
03:42:04 <elliott> pikhq: IN MY DEFENCE I TOTALLY DON'T ENDORSE IT OK
03:42:11 <elliott> pikhq: Also, agreed, get on it :P
03:43:47 <Gregor> OK, seriously what the fuck.
03:43:54 <Gregor> It installed both Python 2.6 and Python 2.5
03:43:57 <elliott> Gregor: "Installing Cobol..."
03:44:21 <elliott> Gregor: Probably one for XChat plugins and one for some other package it wants.
03:44:54 <Gregor> Probably. But still, WTF.
03:46:06 <Gregor> (For FireWeaselFoxyIce of course, but still)
03:48:37 <elliott> Gregor: Because it supports <video>
03:48:40 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, Chromium, dude. :P
03:48:45 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Because it supports <video>
03:48:53 <Gregor> Step one: X-Chat. (Still)
03:49:13 <elliott> perl -lpe'sub f{s/\pl(\d+)/f($_=$s[$1-1][-65+ord$&]);$_/ge;s/^=(.*)/lc$1/ee}push@s,[split$,=v9,$_,-1]}{print map&f?0+sprintf"%.2f",$_:$_,@$_ for@s'
03:49:30 <elliott> (http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?spreadsheet)
03:50:25 <SGEO> What version of IE came with Win95?
03:50:56 <SGEO> Because whatever it is, plugins made for it work in IE8
03:50:58 -!- catseye has joined.
03:51:09 <elliott> catseye: we've missed you! i ... guess.
03:51:11 <catseye> "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python." -- http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html
03:51:13 <elliott> not all that hard or anything
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03:51:30 <elliott> I think catseye is sick of us :P
03:51:33 <SGEO> It's a parody page
03:51:36 <elliott> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at www.datarecoverylabs.com.
03:51:52 <elliott> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pFvFDVH_ka4J:www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html+http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html&hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&strip=1
03:51:55 <SGEO> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html
03:52:13 <elliott> "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python. The current version is Haskell 98."
03:52:15 <elliott> Both sentences are wrong :P
03:52:33 <SGEO> "Java is one of the first truly object oriented languages."
03:53:14 <SGEO> One of the first widely popular ones, maybe. I don't know, but that would be reasonable. But
03:53:47 <elliott> "Tcl, like Perl, and other scripting languages, is an interpreted scripting language designed mostly for console use. It is extensible through high level languages like Java."
03:53:55 <SGEO> "JavaScript began as Netscape's LiveScript, and was rebranded due to Java's popularity."
03:53:57 <elliott> "Ruby is a multi-paradigm language with syntax similar to Perl. It is often compared to Java in as much as both languages borrow object-oriented syntax pioneered by small talk."
03:54:17 <SGEO> I'm glad they didn't say that JavaScript is Java in the browser
03:54:21 <elliott> nooga: YOU SHOULD TOTALLY HELP ME WRITE 8NIX
03:54:27 <elliott> THE ONLY PORTABLE 8-BIT UNIX
03:54:41 <elliott> RUNS ON COMMODORE 64, 8-BIT ATARIS AND YOUR MOM
03:54:44 <SGEO> Syntax seems to be the one thing Ruby _didn't_ borrow from Smalltalk
03:54:50 <SGEO> Or, well, one thing
03:56:06 <elliott> nooga: Bulk of kernel, userspace code written in portable language -- unlikely C, unless I can find a C compiler that can target all these with the same language. Most likely a "real" portable asm with ()s, call it A or Z or something.
03:56:22 <elliott> nooga: Architecture-dependent abstraction library, bootloader code and drivers, obviously.
03:56:57 <elliott> nooga: Proper multitasking and what not. Serial port support being a major feature because you can have all the bloat a modern terminal gives you, rather than the rather, uh, limited consoles of the machines.
03:57:10 <SGEO> "If both files are ordered on the key field, then this record matching operation functions correctly, but if either the transaction or the master file is unordered, record matching cannot work.
03:57:11 <elliott> Also it lets you type | instead of ! or whatever on machines without such luxurious characters...
03:57:13 <SGEO> I don't get that
03:57:22 <SGEO> Surely you could still do it, but pitifully slowly?
03:57:28 <elliott> nooga: Probably not very fast, due to portability.
03:57:36 <elliott> http://lng.sourceforge.net/
03:57:41 <elliott> nooga: That did all of this for the C64.
03:57:55 <elliott> nooga: It's just a matter of getting rid of all the optimisations so that it runs more slowly and on more hardware. :)
03:57:55 <nooga> we should discuss it tomorrow
03:58:12 <nooga> since i'm drunk again and my gf wants to sleep atm
03:58:24 <elliott> it would be fun to hook it up to telnet
03:58:31 <elliott> serial cable then telnet server, or else an actual ethernet driver
03:58:48 <nooga> i could run it on my 8088
03:59:34 <SGEO> Dear authors: Just because you have a broken algorithm, doesn't mean that what you are stating is impossible is, in fact, impossible.
03:59:46 <elliott> nooga: I'LL SPECIFICALLY BREAK IT ON EVERY NON-8-BIT ARCHITECTURE
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04:01:28 <SGEO> http://www.csis.ul.ie/cobol/Course/SequentialFiles2.htm
04:01:36 <SGEO> FOR LYING ABOUT IMPOSSIBILITIES
04:02:00 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: You're using VNC?
04:02:04 <SGEO> Remind me tomorrow to write a COBOL program that does the impossible
04:02:16 <Gregor-ChiPad> elliott, I'm using VNC to localhost, not a real X server.
04:02:17 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: Try drooling on your keyboard instead, it's what the iPad users do.
04:02:25 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: fbdev should work :P
04:02:39 <elliott> Virtual keyboard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
04:02:39 <elliott> A virtual keyboard is a Device invented by the russian government by joseph stalin to stop the allies from attacking endor. A virtual keyboard can usually ...
04:02:39 <elliott> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_keyboard - Cached - Similar
04:02:45 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: *screen, is what I meant.
04:02:51 <Gregor-ChiPad> elliott, Well, because xvkbd is broken, I'm using vncviewer from my desktop :P
04:02:54 <elliott> (Actual Google result, that)
04:03:19 <SGEO> elliott, remind me tomorrow to write a program that batch-deletes from an unordered sequential file
04:03:21 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: What? I'm laughing, fuck you.
04:03:34 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: A virtual keyboard is a Device invented by the russian government by joseph stalin to stop the allies from attacking endor.
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04:06:39 <SGEO> http://www.csis.ul.ie/cobol/Course/SequentialFiles2.htm
04:06:52 <SGEO> Read the answer for "There does not seem to be any special code to write out the remaining records when one file ends before the other. Can the code above be correct?"
04:07:05 <SGEO> I'm beginning to see why COBOL might be hard to read
04:08:42 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: Use something else.
04:10:25 <zzo38> Person who say it cannot be done should not interrupt person doing it.
04:10:31 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: What about uh... what that thing... the...
04:11:00 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: That mobile window manager.
04:11:33 <calamari> elliott: LUnix runs on atari8 too, dunno if you discovered that
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04:11:49 <elliott> calamari: i saw that it could run on atari too yeah (which almost made me not want to do this)
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04:12:00 <elliott> calamari: unfortunately it kernel panics in VICE, says IDE64 isn't there
04:12:03 <elliott> even though it's turned on in vice
04:12:57 <calamari> I wonder if I'm still listed as a dev lol
04:14:06 <calamari> afk, my son is desperate to play websplat
04:14:10 <SGEO> I just realized that I'm not sure if you can go back to the beginning of a file in COBOL. Nevermind my complaints, then.
04:15:05 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: matchbox has a keybaord thing
04:15:36 <elliott> http://matchbox-project.org/screenshots/770-notes-small.png wonder if this nokia thing is open source?
04:15:45 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: http://matchbox-project.org/screenshots/u71-thumb.png keyboard
04:15:50 <elliott> "Matchbox window manager and keyboard running with GNOME ( including the GNOME panel and Nautilus desktop ) on a Sony U71 UMPC with Ubuntu Linux. "
04:16:46 <Gregor> How'd he make it dock like that D-8
04:16:52 <Gregor> Probably just doesn't dock into IceWM :P
04:21:57 * SGEO ponders writing a language that easily compiles to COBOL
04:22:52 <elliott> Gregor: Where should I send money to, hypothetically? :P
04:23:23 <Gregor> elliott: PayPal to <address_to_be_listed_if_I_actually_decide_to_sell> :P
04:24:46 <elliott> Gregor: I'll pay $40. That's $27.22 plus international postage (online price) :P
04:24:51 <elliott> That's EVEN MORE than the minimum $25!!111
04:25:07 <pikhq> elliott: What's that in real money?
04:25:15 * Gregor vaguely wonders how paying for shipping online works anyway.
04:25:29 <pikhq> Like, €0.01 or something?
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04:26:10 <pikhq> Ah, ¥3253. Quite real money there.
04:26:32 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.usps.com/international/sendmail.htm
04:26:36 <elliott> Gregor: Ooh, there may be an even cheaper option
04:26:40 <elliott> "First-Class Mail® International"
04:27:51 <elliott> Gregor: How much does it weigh again?
04:28:38 <Gregor> I'm soooo bad at guessing low weights.
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04:29:40 <elliott> Gregor: Let's say 3 pounds for it and the charger.
04:29:58 <elliott> OK, Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope is still the cheapest.
04:30:01 <elliott> Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope* [More info about Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope*]
04:30:01 <elliott> Maximum Value for Contents: $400.00
04:30:01 <elliott> USPS Supplied Envelope: 9 1/2" x 12 1/2".
04:30:11 <elliott> $13.45 at office, $12.78 online.
04:31:11 <elliott> Gregor: It's, uh, probably simpler to just not do it online because I can't figure out how :P
04:31:15 <elliott> Looks like it might involve Windows and a printer.
04:32:10 <elliott> Gregor: So with the post office price, $40 gets you $26.55, which is clearly $1.55 over your quoted minimum price.
04:32:53 <Gregor> Bleh, between matchbox-keyboard being terrible and this Android VNC viewer being terrible, this is nigh-on unusable >_>
04:33:09 <elliott> Gregor: Are you *sure* there's no X.org support for the touchscreen?
04:33:20 <Gregor> No, I haven't even checked or tried.
04:33:24 <Gregor> It's just more pain than I want to deal with.
04:33:48 <elliott> Gregor: With modular X.org, it could be as simple as... "startx".
04:33:53 <elliott> Isn't Android based on X, anyway?
04:36:03 <elliott> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/equations-over-groups-a-mess/#comment-7647 dated yesterday.
04:36:13 <elliott> He must have just lost his shell account or something.
04:37:30 <Gregor-ChiPad> Damn it, if this VNC viewer didn't suck so much this'd be pretty darn good.
04:38:29 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: You have the libraries :P
04:39:36 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: sudo aptitude install xorg
04:41:09 <SGEO> If I close and re-open a file, can I return to the top of the file?
04:41:10 * Gregor tries a different app.
04:46:23 <elliott> http://jpbrown.i8.com/hanoisolver.html lego hanoi solver
04:47:02 <Gregor-ChiPad> OK, this is a better VNC client, but matchbox-keyboard sucks.
04:47:38 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: Try... "GOK"
04:47:46 <elliott> It's what I have here in GNOME.
04:48:54 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: oh, you need to enable ASS-TIVE TECHNOLOGIES
04:49:11 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: OMG STOP WAIT
04:49:16 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: Install Dasher. NOW
04:50:50 <elliott> Why not? Are you a racist?
04:51:21 <calamari> Gregor-ChiPad: tried it on my wii, never got past loading... tho
04:51:45 <calamari> I guess wii opera is too lame hehe
04:52:12 <elliott> I wrote this sentence with Dasher. And I don't regret it.
04:52:16 <elliott> Double space is a mouseo :P
04:52:27 <Gregor> Dasher sucks even on computers that don't.
04:54:48 <elliott> Gregor: Dasher is cool if you actually have a need for it, i.e. have no arms :P
04:54:58 <elliott> Gregor: It's also great to get the little "go to" line vertical and just hold it there: "LeG urU,bacling by coysiss increat. In the surface. Pip music diagram, this shDupen, who was, the praction of the Lumber, wike DNA black holding, wments and he t& levelis. Pailizing on the New York Avra&Betbacks to go with and stars."
04:55:19 <zzo38> Now I made the GF-Magick program, and it works now! Do you like this program?
04:55:28 <elliott> zzo38: Yes! It is wonderful program.
04:56:01 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kim_Jong-il's_titles My God that's amazing.
04:56:22 <pikhq> Kim Jong Il, Dear Leader, who is a perfect incarnation of the appearance that a leader should have.
04:56:38 <elliott> "We !' understandGavift mean that that is of rubber untifson to you like a boratefok's eyes more effectsU.."
04:56:48 <zzo38> There is the program: http://sprunge.us/OXAL Now it is possible to use METAFONT with ImageMagick.
04:57:23 <elliott> pikhq: Swallow-bourne Prince of Twin Rainbows
04:57:27 <elliott> Double rainbow, all the way, across the North Korean sky.
04:58:29 <elliott> Sweet, I broke Dasher by setting it to Japanese.
04:58:34 <elliott> Now it crashes on startup.
04:58:41 <elliott> ** Message: Could not initialise SPI - accessibility options disabled
04:58:44 <zzo38> Which means you can use colors and all kind of other special effects with METAFONT, and many kind of output format.
04:59:01 <pikhq> elliott: It is the official story that his birth was foretold by a swallow and heralded by a double rainbow and a *new star in the heavens*.
04:59:47 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, what languages do you know apart from English, Japanese and Esperanto? I want to give you Dashernonsense for you tot ranslate :P
05:00:01 <elliott> "Perl programming language" BEST LANGUAGE MODEL EVER
05:00:21 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, I know a few phrases of Spanish, and would suddenly start remembering quite a bit more if in a Spanish-speaking country for a couple of days.
05:00:37 <elliott> "9@JR;xn8;'Z;@;K<}5_@;R@;K<(@;';@J;'" -- typical Perl according to Dasher
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05:02:22 <pikhq> It is also said that Kim Jong-il controls the weather.
05:02:47 <TLUL> Does EgoBot still run the BF Joust?
05:03:07 <TLUL> Suppose I can just try it and find out.
05:03:45 <elliott> TLUL: It does if and only if you believe it does.
05:04:26 <TLUL> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush >[-]+[[-]>[-.]+]
05:04:42 <elliott> It records your name automatically.
05:04:44 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_TLUL_acid_rush: 17.0
05:05:02 <elliott> Just do "!bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush ]" to get it off the board if you make a better-named one :)
05:05:25 <TLUL> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush ]
05:05:38 <TLUL> It's also the lowest scoring one, so I think I'll remove it.
05:05:40 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_TLUL_acid_rush: 12.2
05:06:09 <TLUL> Heh, let's see how bad of one we can make
05:06:41 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_bastard: 12.2
05:06:44 <elliott> !bfjoust bastard ]([)%1000
05:06:49 <TLUL> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush [-]+[-<+]
05:06:51 <elliott> Gregor: Link us to the board :P
05:06:52 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_bastard: 0.0
05:07:15 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_TLUL_acid_rush: 9.5
05:07:29 <elliott> And we can cover the board with [s!!!
05:07:32 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_bastard: 12.2
05:07:36 <TLUL> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush ]([)%1000
05:07:44 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_TLUL_acid_rush: 0.0
05:08:03 <Gregor> elliott: "Link us to the board :P" What does this mean?
05:08:09 <elliott> Gregor: the bfjoust leader board
05:08:10 <TLUL> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
05:08:36 <elliott> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush ]([)%1000
05:08:43 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_TLUL_acid_rush: 0.0
05:08:46 <elliott> HAHA IT KNOCKED YOURS OFF (probably)
05:09:23 <TLUL> !bfjoust Acid_rush [-]+[[-]>[-]+]
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05:09:51 <TLUL> That one should turn out... interestingly.
05:09:53 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_Acid_rush: 9.4
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05:10:57 <Gregor> elliott: How the HELL do you make gok show an ACTUAL KEYBOARD X_X
05:11:29 <elliott> Gregor: Enable accessibility in GNOME :P
05:11:33 <TLUL> !bfjoust Acid_rush (+)*7[>>>(-)*117>[-]..+]
05:11:42 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_Acid_rush: 0.0
05:11:46 <Gregor> elliott: Not - helpful
05:12:04 <elliott> Gregor: I don't actually know.
05:12:39 <elliott> Gregor: But when you do, it'll be beautiful: http://www.gok.ca/pics/2002_05_10_152021_shot.jpg
05:12:57 <SGEO> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Punch-card-cobol.jpg
05:13:07 <SGEO> It occurs to me that I have no idea how to read that
05:14:08 <Gregor> elliott: I wish gok would stop showing me this retarded alpha keyboard
05:15:21 <SGEO> Surely someone had to punch that... unless you typed at a machine which punched the right holes for you?
05:15:52 <SGEO> That actually makes the most sense now that I think about it
05:17:29 <Gregor> elliott: I don't think gok functions at all without GNOME ...
05:17:38 <elliott> Gregor: I don't think it functions at all :P
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05:17:51 <SGEO> "Sometimes the ignored positions 7380 were used to contain a sequence number in a deck of cards, so they could be resorted back to the right order in case they were dropped."
05:17:58 <SGEO> Isn't that what 1-6 in COBOL are for?
05:24:18 <SGEO> The machines are called keypunches
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05:51:36 <SGEO> "Now now, it's not true that Brainfuck is easier to read than Cobol. PerlLanguage, sure. But not Cobol.
05:51:41 <SGEO> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyWeHateBrainfuck
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17:57:05 <elliott> 00:16:42 <zzo38> The [[User:Ehird]] page won't load
17:57:06 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird
17:57:10 <elliott> Yes it does, it's just slow!
17:57:44 <Vorpal> elliott, slow due to download time or due to rendering?
17:57:51 <elliott> rendering, I would assume. Although it's not tiny either.
17:58:03 <elliott> It uses CSS opacity which tends to be rather slow.
17:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott, did you automate the generation of it or?
17:58:44 <elliott> Vorpal: However it isn't quite done yet; the snowman, for some reason, won't move down from where it is now.
17:58:51 <elliott> <b style="position:absolute;width:100%;font-size:500%;color:#fff;text-align:center;z-index:10000"><br><i style="font-size:400%">☃</i></b>
17:58:57 <elliott> This stays at the top of the page for whatever reason.
17:59:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm looks better than yesteday at least!
17:59:44 <elliott> $ curl -s http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird | wc -c | dc -e '?1024/p'
18:00:03 <elliott> Where by ain't bad I mean is long.
18:00:11 <elliott> Vorpal: <div> and <span> are blocked
18:00:37 <pikhq> elliott: Add a margin-top.
18:00:46 <elliott> pikhq: Why didn't I think of that?
18:01:02 <elliott> Oh, I also need to get rid of the horizontal scrollbar that I think that width:100% is causing, but that can wait.
18:01:35 * pikhq is back to trying to get Half-Life 2 to work in a wineroot.
18:01:43 <pikhq> Damned thing won't coöperate.
18:01:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird Snowman is now comfortably inside page!
18:02:19 <elliott> Except when you increase the font size.
18:03:15 <pikhq> Also, that sucker is *way* off the screen now for me.
18:03:33 <elliott> I can't preview this locally without pain :P
18:03:53 -!- zeotrope has joined.
18:03:53 -!- zeotrope has quit (Changing host).
18:03:53 -!- zeotrope has joined.
18:03:56 -!- zeotrope has changed nick to happyinasombrero.
18:03:59 <Vorpal> elliott, does the preview thingy not work?
18:04:06 -!- happyinasombrero has left (?).
18:04:23 <elliott> Vorpal: When it did work, it obscured the edit box; ais523 edited the MediaWiki CSS so that it, y'know, didn't; this has the effect of making preview not show anything on such pages.
18:05:19 <pikhq> Come on Steam, actually start.
18:05:37 * pikhq throttles the massive seeding
18:06:08 <Sgeo> I think Vonkeror can't handle User:Ehird
18:06:59 <pikhq> I think Steam doesn't like me ATM.
18:07:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Maybe Sgeo has a 1-bit monitor :P
18:07:24 <elliott> Sgeo: Maybe zzo has a 1-bit monitor :P
18:08:26 <elliott> pikhq: Haa, take a look at what's happened to it.
18:08:59 <Sgeo> Takes up the width of the page
18:09:24 <elliott> Sgeo obviously has a shitty browser.
18:09:33 <elliott> Oh, you mean the horizontal scroll?
18:09:34 <Sgeo> I'm referring to the source
18:09:50 <Sgeo> Where you have <b></b> styled to take up the width of the page
18:09:52 <Sgeo> For the gradient
18:14:29 <elliott> pikhq: Dear god what have I done to the snowman.
18:17:33 * pikhq would like to take this moment to flip off Steam
18:19:09 <elliott> pikhq: I just tried to replace the limes in the esolang logo with a white-on-black snowman on my talk page but I can't :P
18:21:56 <elliott> pikhq: I'll write a single-stepping SKI interpreter in MediaWiki to pay for my failure. Deal? :P
18:27:47 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZ5Yez0Hec
18:30:48 <elliott> Gregor: is this meant to be hilarious?
18:31:19 <Gregor> It's somewhere between hilariously bad and hilariously awesome.
18:31:32 <elliott> DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRR!!
18:31:39 <elliott> (door door door door door door)
18:33:14 <pikhq> Gregor: I wonder how they'll do the cannon.
18:33:15 <elliott> Gregor: My attempt at 2:46, in form: Hbbbbbbbbbblllllllllllllrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
18:34:58 <elliott> "World of Warcraft: Cataclysm vs. Bejeweled 3" --IGN
18:35:17 <Sgeo> What's supposed to be funny about it?
18:35:32 <elliott> "Bejeweled 3: has a quest mode with one or more quests. All quests will probably involve jewels."
18:35:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: Someone hasn't heard the 1812 overture all the way through. :P
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18:36:16 <elliott> this is my favourite game review ever
18:37:37 <elliott> (http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/113/1132476p1.html)
18:38:22 <Sgeo> So I Googled it for nothing
18:39:36 <Sgeo> What you said to find the review
18:39:40 <Sgeo> "Number of Known References to PopCap's Plants Vs. Zombies "
18:39:44 * Sgeo finds that amusing
18:41:48 <Sgeo> "where players are driven to collect loot and kill monsters by matching colors. May heaven have mercy on us all."
18:41:54 <Sgeo> Puzzle Pirates?
18:42:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:42:17 <Sgeo> (I don't think there are monsters to kill in PP, but you get what i mean)
18:42:30 <Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later
18:48:56 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit
18:48:57 <elliott> r<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later
18:49:17 <HackEgo> 254|<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program
18:49:19 <poiuy_qwert> would it be useless to release an OS X compiled interpreter for an esolang?
18:49:27 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: why not just release the source?
18:50:13 <Sgeo> What's with the multiple pastes?
18:50:32 <poiuy_qwert> I dont want everyone to see how bad its coded? :P I don't want to release the source till i'm done
18:51:00 <poiuy_qwert> but i wanted to release a compiled version of whats done so far
18:51:02 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Nobody really pays much attention to closed-source esolangs. Well, if they're portable, perhaps (say, Flash or whatever, but ew).
18:51:20 * Sgeo still needs to email Fidelity
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18:51:40 <poiuy_qwert> well I will eventually be releasing it compiled for osx and windows, including source
18:51:44 <elliott> Just release the source or wait until it's done before releasing anything. Besides, there's esolangers with far worse code than what you have :p
18:51:54 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Uhh, we also have a rather large population of *nix users...
18:52:00 <elliott> (Okay, OS X is *nix, but still...)
18:53:03 <Sgeo> *nix does not look like it should fit as a set that includex linUx
18:53:18 <elliott> *nix matches barely anything, which is why it's not a glob :P
18:53:29 <Sgeo> <elliott> includex.
18:53:55 <Sgeo> You tend to point out typos like that
18:53:57 <poiuy_qwert> i think i'll probably just wait till im done and release everything at once...
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19:01:28 <pikhq> poiuy_qwert: Just release the source. Seriously.
19:01:36 <pikhq> poiuy_qwert: Even if it's fucking terrible.
19:02:45 <elliott> about the Enterprise-D: "Because it's not a ship of war. It's more like a heavily armoured carnival cruise ship, equipped with oceanography labs, and 18" gun turrets just in case. And it's run by the military, only it isn't the military, unless you need the military. In which case, it's the military."
19:04:31 <pikhq> elliott: It's quite clear that Starfleet was very unfamiliar with the concept of war.
19:04:55 <elliott> WAR IS INHUMANE *shoots things*
19:06:19 <Sgeo> Weren't there a ot of civilians on board?
19:06:23 <poiuy_qwert> pikhq: well I will be releasing the source once im done or at least a little further on
19:06:30 <Sgeo> Wait, which series was Enterprise-D?
19:06:53 <Sgeo> In TNG, I remember an episode where... stuff with time happened, and then the alternate them was at war
19:07:00 <oklopol> guess what i did last night?
19:07:05 <Sgeo> And Tasha Yar was alive
19:08:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Enterprise-D was TNG.
19:08:31 <Sgeo> But in the regular crew, there were clearly civilians, and .. they did get into fights sometimes, didn't they
19:08:33 <zzo38> poiuy_qwert: Many codes also, different people have different opinions how bad the codes are.
19:08:39 <elliott> Sgeo: That wasn't alternate, that was just the last episode.
19:08:40 <Sgeo> Well, I guess that's not the same as being explicitely at war
19:08:43 <elliott> (It was in fact past/future.)
19:08:55 <pikhq> elliott: That wasn't the last episode.
19:09:05 <Sgeo> I wasn't referring to the last episode
19:09:07 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Nobody uses OS X in the esolangs community that I know of. Well... jix I think does? Whatever.
19:09:09 <poiuy_qwert> well I was actually kidding about the bad code part :P
19:09:16 <elliott> pikhq: Sgeo: Yesterday's Enterprise?
19:09:23 <elliott> Sgeo's description is hopelessly vague :P
19:09:24 <Sgeo> elliott, I.. think that was it
19:09:36 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: And closed-source esolangs get basically no attention; why not just release the source?
19:09:40 <poiuy_qwert> elliott: yeah thats what i assumed, just asked to make sure
19:09:49 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, that's the one with Tasha Yar that's not season 1...
19:10:13 <poiuy_qwert> <poiuy_qwert> i think i'll probably just wait till im done and release everything at once... <poiuy_qwert> pikhq: well I will be releasing the source once im done or at least a little further on
19:10:27 <elliott> pikhq: Excuse me, "All Good Things..." has Tasha.
19:10:33 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, wait, she was in All Good Things... as well, wasn't she.
19:10:33 <elliott> pikhq: And is the last episode. And has past/future.
19:10:47 <elliott> pikhq: That also fit Sgeo's description; they're not very friendly with the Klingons in that future.
19:10:51 <elliott> (Okay, not *war*, but still.)
19:11:07 <zzo38> poiuy_qwert: I think it is a good idea to release the codes (using a free software/open source license (or public domain) if you can) (I try to prefer release source-codes of my programs as much as possible too, including a license such as GNU GPL or public domain)
19:11:19 <pikhq> elliott: I think he'd mention if it were a Q episode.
19:11:37 <elliott> pikhq: With that kind of memory? :P
19:11:42 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, fair enough.
19:11:46 <oklopol> who cares about the program, is there a language involved?
19:12:00 <elliott> oklopol: yes poiuy_qwert made a language apparently
19:12:04 <poiuy_qwert> zzo38: i've never actually looked into licenses because I just cant be bothered to read it, i just release everything
19:12:06 <elliott> "Oracle will deliver two Java Virtual Machines (JVMs) based on the OpenJDK project - one free and the other paid." LOLJAVA
19:12:08 <Sgeo> I happen to know the name of the last episode, thank you very much
19:12:14 <Sgeo> And not just because it was just stated here
19:12:20 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Just use the MIT license for open source stuff.
19:12:22 <oklopol> elliott: can he tell me more about it?
19:12:29 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: It is, literally, "you can do anything you want if you keep this license and my name here".
19:12:34 <elliott> oklopol: i don't know you'd have to ask him
19:12:45 <oklopol> elliott: hmm, i'll consider that
19:12:51 <elliott> Zetaplex is already implemented, isn't it?
19:12:57 <oklopol> elliott: what do you think would be the polite way to approach him?
19:13:06 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: stfu, i wasn't talking to you
19:13:17 <elliott> oklopol: Something like "poiuy_qwert: so uh hi i saw you have a new language, tell me about it???? or not if you don't want to i guess uh"
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19:13:22 <elliott> oklopol: i think that would be appropriate
19:13:37 <oklopol> elliott: okay sounds good, i'll base my question on that
19:13:59 <zzo38> poiuy_qwert: Yes, the MIT license will do too. (I don't use this license for my own projects; but I have no objection to it being used with other people's project)
19:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It's more an absence of any restrictions on the use of whatever it is.
19:14:22 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: i would like to know stuff about your language which i heard exists atm, please tell me although you don't have to
19:14:30 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I know that. (If you want it public domain but with a license anyways, use WTFPL, it is basically the same thing)
19:14:41 <poiuy_qwert> elliott, zzo38: that sounds like a license i would use
19:15:34 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Or the WTFPL.
19:15:36 <poiuy_qwert> oklopol: oh yes no problem. its called Zetaplex, check it out: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Zetaplex
19:15:44 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: ("Do What The Fuck You Want To Public License")
19:18:28 -!- fizzie has joined.
19:18:37 <Sgeo> elliott, http://qntm.org/nanowrimo
19:20:47 <pikhq> An MP in the UK lost his seat after an election court ruled that he knowingly made false statements about an opponent during his campaign.
19:20:55 <pikhq> *God* I wish US elections worked like that.
19:21:15 <Sgeo> pikhq, so that no one will be able to fill seats?
19:21:24 <pikhq> (in the US, actually lying about your opponent is PAR FOR THE COURSE.)
19:21:32 <Sgeo> We'd have an empty Congress
19:21:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, I think we'd have Kucinich.
19:21:57 <pikhq> Pity that's not quorum.
19:22:05 <oklopol> holy fucking assmunch that language is hugfe
19:22:15 <Sgeo> oklopol, COBOL?
19:22:30 <elliott> "Sgeo*!*@* added to ignore list."
19:22:38 <elliott> if only I could ignore *COBOL* too
19:23:21 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure you can in irssi, by ignoring PRIVMSG *COBOL* or some such.
19:23:38 <oklopol> what if he's on ##COBOL tho?
19:23:44 <Sgeo> What? Way too many keywords and no structured grammar do not make a language huge? Or, well, the syntax
19:23:55 <Sgeo> Erm, shouldn't say no structured
19:24:07 <Sgeo> But um.. not.. blargh
19:24:07 <oklopol> indeed, that's not english
19:24:32 <oklopol> because it is, i just misparsed :D
19:25:00 <elliott> oklopol: you are the most fun
19:25:04 <Sgeo> I assume elliott's ignores tend to be temporary?
19:25:04 <oklopol> ugh, i feel so lucky i don't have to read my messaged
19:25:29 <oklopol> and then i read them and go like hmm what the fuck does that mean
19:25:43 <elliott> it means that god owns your soul
19:25:43 <oklopol> and then i'm like w/e not my prob
19:25:54 <oklopol> guess what i did last night
19:25:59 <oklopol> now that i got ur attention
19:26:11 <Sgeo> ^ul (Trying elliott's trick that he's used to get to others before)S
19:26:17 <oklopol> no, much crazier than that
19:26:17 <Sgeo> !ul (Trying elliott's trick that he's used to get to others before)S
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19:26:52 <oklopol> even the cheater thought that was too much of a cheat, Sgeo
19:27:35 <Sgeo> ~ul (Maybe it doesn't like empty printing)S
19:27:44 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: where did you get all those commands?
19:27:58 <oklopol> Sgeo: maybe what doesn't? :D
19:28:09 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: for the language
19:28:19 <oklopol> there was a big list of them!
19:29:28 <poiuy_qwert> its got a lot of functionality as well as a little fluff to make things easier/less code so games can be faster
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19:32:20 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: i'd tell you i was coding a game last night but i want elliot to guess first
19:33:46 -!- calamari has joined.
19:34:15 <fizzie> elliott: It's just that fungot refuses to respect my authority with the unseemly ~ in the username.
19:34:15 <fungot> fizzie: life is a horror movie
19:34:29 <fizzie> fungot: Who said that?
19:34:29 <fungot> fizzie: just requests for renting an apartment, so it fnord be useful information regarding an error state, or do you?' at the end
19:34:47 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, now you're just incoherent again.
19:34:47 <fungot> fizzie: sarahbot, yow". i didn't know about
19:34:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
19:35:10 <fizzie> It resets to irc wheneve restarted.
19:35:54 <fizzie> Some day I'll save the current style in the state file. Probably same day I'll finally save the ignore list.
19:36:14 <fungot> Sgeo: do you care? nobody will make you his bitch to upgrade. well that's true :) still, i would guess it'll become the normal greeting for a superior person in the world has scheme or lisp
19:36:34 <fizzie> I guess I could just have a initial command list that it'd run at startup.
19:36:45 <Sgeo> fungot, elliott
19:36:45 <fungot> Sgeo: we are " food eaters". humans are fnord, so ( fnord x)
19:36:58 * Sgeo fnords elliott
19:37:23 <fizzie> The punctuation should also be improved, there's those spurious spaces.
19:37:26 <Sgeo> TYOP DELIBERATE
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19:49:19 <fizzie> "[fizzie] idle 51:14:03" before jumping, I seem to have been very lax when it comes to ircery.
19:52:43 <oklopol> elliott: guess more, or ignore me, there are no other options
19:53:38 <elliott> <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: i'd tell you i was coding a game last night but i want elliot to guess first
19:53:43 <elliott> try spelling my name right :P
19:54:15 <oklopol> if i'd spelled your name right, you would've
19:54:35 <oklopol> you can't read other people's messages
19:54:37 <elliott> oklopol: you are beyond confusing
19:54:39 <oklopol> hasn't your mom taught you anything
19:55:05 <oklopol> in any case, you guessed correctly, i was programming
19:55:24 <elliott> (also: misspelling intentional)
19:55:39 <oklopol> of course it was intentional
19:56:12 <oklopol> tbh we didn't really finish the game, because we were not programming in python
19:56:21 <oklopol> although maybe we halved it
19:57:16 <oklopol> and there are blocks that try to kill you
19:57:24 <oklopol> and you can shoot blocks at them and build stuff from blocks
19:57:51 <oklopol> 's this crazy shooting mechanism where you can shoot blocks on arbitrary trajectories
19:58:36 <elliott> <oklopol> and you can shoot blocks at them and build stuff from blocks ;; so like minecraft then *shot*
19:58:41 <elliott> "it sounds cool, i'll go clone it"
19:58:46 <elliott> (me at your idea, not you at minecraft)
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19:59:36 <oklopol> i haven't seen minecraft, but my coding partner told me about it when i started talking about my block ideas
19:59:48 <oklopol> in any case minecraft is 3d so i don't see how it could be very interesting
20:00:06 <elliott> but more socially retarded!
20:00:23 <oklopol> afaiu you can't really... do anything in minecraft
20:00:44 -!- nooga has joined.
20:00:49 <elliott> oklopol: you can do circuits
20:00:57 <elliott> also you can make pickaxes!
20:01:14 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Crafting
20:01:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:01:55 <oklopol> if it's a roughly real-life complete game, i'm marginally interested
20:02:12 <oklopol> but real-life physics are not very interesting
20:02:33 <oklopol> in fact anything that happens in euclidean space is pretty much yesterdays news
20:03:24 <oklopol> but so maybe i'll have to try that
20:03:50 <elliott> oklopol: well, you can punch trees
20:04:06 <elliott> oklopol: and the rest of the trunk and all the leaves just hover in the air above the bit you punched off
20:04:16 <zzo38> See this is a file I made with GF-Magick http://sprunge.us/PXdi Now you please try to make 3D animations with GF-Magick, too!
20:04:29 <elliott> oklopol: it just doesn't apply to trees
20:04:35 <elliott> oklopol: (and various other things; it does apply to certain types of blocks)
20:04:46 <zzo38> elliott: Why not trees?
20:05:17 <zzo38> O, it is because they are magic trees
20:05:19 <oklopol> tell me more about circuits
20:05:21 <elliott> "Gameplay in Minecraft consists mainly of adding and destroying blocks on a map surrounded by water on all sides. There are several different types of blocks, some of which perform special functions like spreading or falling down because of gravity."
20:05:30 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_circuits
20:05:44 <elliott> oklopol: someone did a 16-bit ALU from an actual design (in some textbook) with them
20:06:20 <elliott> oklopol: anyway yeah electricity with stone and torches, can't go wrong
20:07:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:07:26 <oklopol> well have to admit that does sound awesome
20:07:35 <elliott> oklopol: it has rollercoasters
20:07:43 <elliott> admittedly they're special-cased, but c'mon
20:08:03 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart
20:08:31 <elliott> oklopol: you can also theoretically make elevators with screwy minecart physics to make it vertical, water because i forget why, and circuits; ask fizzie :P
20:08:51 <elliott> "Minecarts can act very strangely when they're next to each other - they accelerate rapidly. This effect is used to create boosters.
20:08:51 <elliott> Please check Minecart boosters for detailed description of how they work. "
20:16:35 <Vorpal> elliott, noticed that yellow text on the main menu in minecraft?
20:16:46 <Vorpal> which is randomly selected every time you open that menu
20:16:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I found this one very funny:
20:16:57 <elliott> at first, i hoped it was the version
20:17:18 <Vorpal> "This text is hard to read if you play the game at the default resolution, but at 1080p it is fine!"
20:17:25 <Vorpal> in *very* small letters
20:18:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I also found "Larger than earth!" somewhat amusing. It is even accurate since minecraft has an infinite world, generated on demand.
20:18:58 <elliott> In Classic it's finite though.
20:19:04 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but in alpha it isn't
20:21:27 <elliott> alpha isn't unless you pirate it*
20:21:30 <elliott> *which makes you a bad person
20:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm seriously considering buying it though
20:22:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the screwy minecart physics makes it worth it!
20:22:36 <oklopol> piracy is *easier* than paying, i don't care about money, i have a job
20:24:39 <oklopol> so anyone wanna give me a link to piratebay so i don't have to google it
20:24:55 <oklopol> nah just kidding i'll consider doing it soon
20:25:55 <oklopol> can i interact with people even with the pirated one
20:26:11 <oklopol> i've heard that's the best part about online gaming
20:27:26 <oklopol> as long as there's enough space for me ofc, i wouldn't actually like to see anyone
20:30:12 <elliott> oklopol: well you can do the single-player thing.
20:30:23 <elliott> oklopol: or you can put in an IP for a server and interact with EVIL people.
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20:30:38 <elliott> oklopol: also you can play single or multiplayer with Classic but there's no circuits or carts or anything there.
20:31:34 <oklopol> i'd like this game where you have an infinite 2d universe and really small planets, and gravity is towards big polygons, polygons merge into bigger polygons automatically to make the physics real-time computable, and you could build spaceships from the materials found on your planet
20:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps we can enslave a programmer to make it for us!
20:33:34 <elliott> oklopol: variable gravity?
20:33:48 <oklopol> bigger the polygon, bigger the grav
20:34:48 <oklopol> because orbits don't work in 2d (according to what i've heard, and also never having managed to get them working in my 2d games) and a few other reasons, there would probably also be a few physical laws not found in real life
20:36:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: if relativistic, then speed of light would be about 5km/h
20:36:39 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: they are not if there's a force that tries to keep them static
20:37:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Logically, the Newtonian physics wouldn't be quite as they are in 3D, since the inverse square law simply becomes inverse.
20:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, if you just make it inverse square that disappears.
20:38:45 <oklopol> erm "<Phantom_Hoover> Logically, the Newtonian physics wouldn't be quite as they are in 3D, since the inverse square law simply becomes inverse." <<< why?
20:39:28 <oklopol> i thought you meant the restriction of nf to a plane would result in that
20:40:11 <Phantom_Hoover> In n dimensions, gravitational force in a Newtonian system is inversely proportional to the n-1th power of the distance.
20:40:18 <oklopol> and with inverse square, orbits are not stable
20:40:53 <oklopol> if *a* physician said so, then i'm probably wrong
20:41:39 <oklopol> maybe stephen hawking's physician would know
20:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, it follows from the surface of a sphere analogue.
20:42:45 <oklopol> in any case, "<oklopol> and with inverse square, orbits are not stable" i've tested countless times when i was a kid, and always thought it was discretization of time that made them unstable, so i assumed also what people say about 2d orbits was with this law
20:43:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, pi*r² ?
20:43:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is the surface *area* of a circle
20:43:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: well ofc if you take the same objects' restrictions to a plane, you will get one multiple of n less measure, but same distance; but we don't care about mass, we just care about what kind of function of r it is
20:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, fine; surface hypervolume of an n-1-sphere.
20:44:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so the circumference?
20:45:27 <Phantom_Hoover> For n=3 it's the surface area, for n=4 the surface volume, and so on.
20:45:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, surface volume sounds... strange but yeah I know logically it will be so
20:45:57 <calamari> Gregor: The goal of Websplat according to my 4 year old son: "To get the Piston Cup"
20:46:15 <elliott> oklopol: make a game where the amount of dimensions increases as you get more and more points
20:46:32 <elliott> oklopol: like it starts off all boring and 1 or 2d and then you end up dodging things and the like in 24 dimensions
20:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so the inverse square law follows from the effect being spread over the surface over a sphere.
20:46:49 <oklopol> i'm sure that would be fun
20:47:31 <oklopol> wait no, i still don't agree
20:47:45 <oklopol> in any case, this is pretty irrelevant
20:47:47 <elliott> oklopol: now *i* want to make that game
20:47:52 <Vorpal> calamari, never seen it
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20:48:00 <oklopol> what's relevant is to talk about ways to make orbits work
20:48:06 <elliott> joystick is 2d movement, you can press a toggle up or down to change which dimension you're moving in
20:48:08 <elliott> e.g. vertical or horizontal
20:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, it doesn't matter, because if we stay true to it then orbital physics fails.
20:48:10 <elliott> vertical, horizontal or depth
20:48:15 <elliott> vertical, horizontal, depth or qxujqxui
20:48:26 * pikhq is very very irritated at qemu right now
20:48:28 <elliott> you always operate on two dimensions
20:48:37 <elliott> so e.g. in 4d you operate on vertical/horizontal
20:48:45 <calamari> I was annoyed with it months ago
20:48:47 <elliott> press the toggle up, you're moving around in horizontal/depth
20:48:50 <pikhq> The userspace network emulation is not working.
20:48:54 <pikhq> Why? Hell if I know.
20:48:54 <elliott> press the toggle up, depth/qxujqxui
20:49:00 <oklopol> elliott: maybe it could just be one of those games where you're a gun and try to shoot things coming at you
20:49:13 <elliott> oklopol: i was thinking that, yeah, like Asteroids but N-d
20:49:17 <oklopol> this game where there's a goal and you need to walk to it :D
20:49:26 <elliott> that would be equally difficult :)
20:49:36 <elliott> oklopol: perhaps that + things shoot at you and you have to shoot them for points
20:49:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, emulation of what? qemu?
20:49:46 <Vorpal> ah yes you said that abvoe
20:49:48 <elliott> oklopol: maybe the toggle should be a second joystick or whatever
20:49:53 <elliott> or at least a mouse-wheel type thing
20:49:54 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try writing a 2D orbital physics thing to see what happens.
20:49:57 <elliott> so that it's easier to control what dimensions
20:50:18 <calamari> pikhq: I was just trying to run an x86 program in armel.. some worked most didn't
20:50:18 <elliott> oklopol: one floor is that e.g. in 3d you could only move in horizontal and vertical, and vertical and depth, not horizontal and depth
20:50:20 <elliott> because of the control system
20:50:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: Emulation *of a network card* *in qemu*. As qemu network emulation would be.
20:51:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well adanaxis is a 4d shooter
20:51:14 <elliott> and there's some 4d puzzle game i think
20:51:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but nothing where the dimensions increase as you get further
20:51:23 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: tell me how it goes
20:51:34 <elliott> oklopol: yeah, it's called adanaxis
20:51:43 <Sgeo> Does elliott eventually remove people off his ignore list?
20:51:45 <oklopol> okay i have two things i have to try
20:51:49 <elliott> oklopol: the controls are such that 4d is basically an extra aiming step :)
20:51:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you're in a 3D space in which you can navigate.
20:51:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why don't you ask him yourself?
20:52:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh is he ignored?
20:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, and there's a tertiary axis that rotates in 4D.
20:52:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but why did he ignore you?
20:53:02 <oklopol> if you can do all 4d rotation, i'm happy
20:53:10 <Sgeo> I mentioned COBOL one too many times, I think
20:53:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> oklopol: the controls are such that 4d is basically an extra aiming step :) <-- indeed
20:53:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you hate it too I presume?
20:53:54 <elliott> LOOK OUT WORLD, I'M WRITING A PACKAGE MANAGER
20:54:08 <Vorpal> how can someone *like* it
20:54:11 <elliott> he keeps talking about the interesting features
20:54:14 <elliott> and going on about how like
20:54:27 <Vorpal> elliott, that would have been true.... 20 years ago
20:54:30 <elliott> Sgeo's future career is going to be hilarious and he'll hang himself by the time he turns 35
20:54:41 <elliott> Vorpal: oh no he CAN perfectly well get a job maintaining a legacy system
20:54:46 <oklopol> it doesn't matter if 4d is an extra aiming step, as long as there isn't a separate 4th axis
20:54:46 <elliott> it's just that he believes that people write readable cobol
20:54:50 <Sgeo> I never said that good for careers == good language
20:54:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is true
20:54:52 <Sgeo> I'm no Java fan
20:55:01 <elliott> Vorpal: the code isn't readable though!
20:55:30 <oklopol> the 3d analogy of the wrong way to do this is to have a 2d asteroids, but you can move the plane lower and higher, and when shooting you can aim down or up; but you can't actually turn the plane
20:56:03 <Vorpal> oklopol, just try it out?
20:56:06 <elliott> oklopol: i'm thinking that with my game, the primary projection should be into 3d space
20:56:11 <calamari> http://home.swbell.net/mck9/cobol/ooc/ooc.html
20:56:11 <Vorpal> oklopol, it is quite fun though rather hard
20:56:13 <elliott> oklopol: so you have another joystick which just rotates 3d space
20:56:18 <elliott> and it projects higher dimensions onto that
20:56:27 <elliott> of course you COULD have a way to change what dimensions you rotate
20:56:32 <elliott> but fuck that, i'll just use a projection
20:56:50 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, adanaxis is linux-only isn't it?
20:56:57 <Sgeo> Also, interesting != good
20:57:08 <Vorpal> there is a windows version
20:57:12 <Sgeo> The floating point stuff is actually good, but the open subroutines are not
20:57:16 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.mushware.com/portal.php?page=4 here's a video of it
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20:57:35 <Sgeo> Well, good depending on the circumstances
20:57:40 <elliott> oklopol: looks like rotating the 4d thing to me
20:58:30 <zzo38> I have made some games and have some ideas of games with different kind of things, you could make five-dimensional sokoban in non-euclidean space, or something like that???
20:59:54 <zzo38> elliott: What ideas of package manager do you have to write?
21:00:08 <elliott> zzo38: various! right now I'm just writing a little idea I had to see how practical it is
21:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, povray can probably be made to do it ;P
21:01:52 <Vorpal> how did that happen...
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21:02:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I Googled it at the time, and it didn't seem like it.
21:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Primarily because rays behave differently in non-Euclidean geometries.
21:02:57 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Write it using Enhanced CWEB, maybe. And then publish the book of it.
21:04:21 <zzo38> Do you like this code? http://sprunge.us/PXdi
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21:06:42 <zzo38> Do you understand this code?
21:11:28 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> oklopol, just try it out?" <<< what are you my psychiatrist
21:11:46 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: i'm thinking that with my game, the primary projection should be into 3d space" <<< what does that mean?
21:12:29 <oklopol> you can compose an n-dimensional space into a 3d space and a n-3-space any way you want, that's the whole point
21:12:37 <elliott> oklopol: what you see on the screen is 3d
21:12:43 <elliott> if it's 4d you get a 3d projection of 4d
21:12:53 <elliott> and you can rotate around the 3d space to see the projection more fully
21:13:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i don't see why
21:13:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the projection of a hyperplane fills the whole 3-space into which you're projecting.
21:14:09 <oklopol> "five-dimensional in non-euclidean space"?
21:15:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean like some of these,
21:15:05 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Schlegel_wireframe_8-cell.png
21:15:06 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Tesseract.gif
21:15:09 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Stereographic_polytope_8cell.png
21:15:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or even http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/3D_stereographic_projection_tesseract.PNG.
21:15:31 <elliott> You'd keep getting more panels you need to squint at.
21:15:35 <elliott> As the dimensions increase.
21:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but just as a plane blocks off everything in a 2D projection of a 3-space, so does the projection of a hyperplane into 3D.
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21:17:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I swear there is stuff that already works like this.
21:17:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, I bumped into this while making the film of Excession in my head.
21:20:07 <elliott> i should read excession first
21:20:10 <elliott> also who cares about games with plot
21:20:48 <oklopol> plots could be interesting, but they are always hard-coded
21:20:57 <oklopol> which makes them as uninteresting as graphics
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21:21:53 <elliott> i can't figure out whether oklopol would love or hate eve online
21:22:43 <nooga> elliott: http://www.jamesmolloy.co.uk/tutorial_html/index.html :D
21:22:56 <elliott> nooga: i remember when it first come out
21:23:03 <elliott> grumble we were fine with that old one by uh what was it, Brain?
21:23:09 <elliott> nooga: anyway that's ridiculously x86-specific
21:23:16 <zzo38> I invented a game that is meant to be as different from chess as possible while still being exactly the same as chess. One difference is it uses only one-dimensional instead of two-dimensional. You might be able to make similar ideas with other games, too.
21:23:36 <Vorpal> <oklopol> "<Vorpal> oklopol, just try it out?" <<< what are you my psychiatrist <-- XD
21:24:14 <nooga> elliott: that's true
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21:25:08 <nooga> elliott: so how would you start with unix clone for 8bit machines?
21:25:51 <elliott> nooga: good question! probably pick a first architecture (commodore 64, is there really any competition?) and then figure out how to do, say, multitasking on that
21:26:00 <elliott> and write some platform-specific code
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21:27:23 <nooga> good idea, i also thought about c64
21:27:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> i can't figure out whether oklopol would love or hate eve online <-- interacting with other people, he said he wouldn't like it
21:28:10 <elliott> Vorpal: it's not very social i don't think :)
21:28:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because there are no decent CASes
21:28:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't played it, I wouldn't know
21:28:35 <elliott> Vorpal: there are corporations and treaties and shit but there's an awful lot of spaceships.
21:28:52 <Vorpal> elliott, is there a free trial version or such?
21:29:00 <Vorpal> and what about linux support
21:29:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
21:29:59 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> <elliott> i can't figure out whether oklopol would love or hate eve online <-- interacting with other people, he said he wouldn't like it" <<< i do like interacting with people OCCASIONALLY
21:30:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least your #esotericking time will be reduced.
21:30:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, there is. I think.
21:30:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh, I'm mine crafting and esotericing at the same time
21:30:29 <elliott> I only played it for a short period of time and it really takes a lot of getting into.
21:30:34 <elliott> Vorpal: EVE Online is not a multitasking game. :)
21:30:38 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, well maybe not a good idea then
21:30:52 <elliott> Vorpal: It has a very true-to-form physics system.
21:31:12 <elliott> Vorpal: There are spaceships and shit, but it's all very consistent. (It's space, in case you haven't guessed.)
21:31:17 <elliott> Vorpal: It has an incomprehensibly large universe and a huge, real economy.
21:31:30 <elliott> There are corporations, alliances, treaties, blowing spaceships the fuck up.
21:31:59 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, it can be free.
21:32:05 <elliott> Vorpal: You can buy game time for *game money*.
21:32:13 <Vorpal> so like ev override. But for windows. And in 3d. And multiplayer. And even larger.
21:32:17 <elliott> So if you get rich enough in the free trial, you can sustain yourself.
21:32:24 <Vorpal> elliott, is it not buy once?
21:32:29 <elliott> Vorpal: ...it's an MMORPG.
21:32:43 <Vorpal> elliott, minecraft is buy once and it is mulitplayer online too
21:32:55 <fizzie> Water elevators work because you can swim up a waterfall, and you can position your dude so that he doesn't drown, yet stays inside the waterfall and can therefore float up.
21:33:04 <fizzie> Plus boats rise up waterfalls really fast for some reason.
21:33:08 <Vorpal> elliott, true, it is independent. eve online is large gamestudio
21:33:08 <elliott> Despite EVE Online being huge it's mostly run off a single server.
21:33:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, actually, the game studio is only large because of EVE.
21:33:24 <fizzie> It's not quite Dwarf Fortress awesome, but still a bit nifty.
21:33:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is? minecraft? yeah
21:33:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have to try that boat thingy some time
21:33:58 <fizzie> It's also still alpha, and being developed, so the finished product might be more niftier.
21:34:09 <elliott> fizzie: Dwarf Fortress MMO.
21:34:19 <Vorpal> elliott, wow. just wow
21:34:32 <fizzie> I suppose it's been discussed in the interwebs a lot; it sounds like the sort of topic that would.
21:34:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think minecraft will probably be developed for a long time if everything goes as planned
21:34:59 <elliott> Well, Alpha was originally "infdev".
21:35:05 <elliott> So one would assume that it is a rather rolling-release type dealie.
21:35:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you played Survival?
21:35:13 <Sgeo> You can build things in Minecraft. Turns out you can also build things in Active Worlds.
21:35:17 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraft.net/survivaltest/
21:35:28 <Vorpal> elliott, yes a bit, harder than alpha
21:35:40 <Sgeo> Although in AW you don't have to gather resources
21:35:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, ..............................................................................................
21:35:53 <elliott> I have not yet been attacked once in Alpha, probably because I tend to dig a lot :)
21:36:01 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that comment is so ABSURD
21:36:02 * elliott checks logs for sgeo funny
21:36:12 <Vorpal> I might put you on ignore as well
21:36:28 <elliott> Minecraft? HMPH, we did that in 2000, and it was SHIT too!
21:36:35 <fizzie> Haven't been Minecrafting past Halloween, since our local server admin hasn't updated the server, and for some reason I feel more like building in the shared space.
21:36:35 <elliott> Not like these modern games, with goals and challenges and fun.
21:36:58 <elliott> fizzie: Halloween was sooooo long ago :P
21:37:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: <Sgeo> No it isn't! We have a bunch of incompetent people *remaking* an Active Worlds game!
21:37:15 <fizzie> Well, it's been *days*!
21:37:31 <elliott> Because creativity is anti-nostalgia.
21:37:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I'd really like to get my hands on the current version and try it out
21:37:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there was an AW crazy here a while ago, wasn't there?
21:37:55 <Vorpal> well, I would need to get paypal first
21:37:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: idiot more like, no?
21:38:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Getting PayPal = filling in credit card details and saying "no don't make me an account"
21:38:20 <Sgeo> I think he was just advertising AW a bit excessively, as opposed to actually being an idiot
21:38:38 <Vorpal> elliott, what? "no don't make me an account"?
21:38:46 <elliott> Vorpal: PayPal has supported account-less payments since forever.
21:38:51 <nooga> elliott: i'm looking for c64's hardware interrupts list
21:39:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well, why doesn't he just accept VISA?
21:39:12 <elliott> nooga: http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Interrupt?
21:39:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Because accepting credit cards is *very* difficult.
21:39:29 <oklopol> "<Sgeo> You can build things in Minecraft. Turns out you can also build things in Active Worlds." <<< why was this so stupid?
21:39:38 <elliott> Vorpal: You have to get certified that it's safe and the criteria are insanely draconian and strange. It costs a lot of money, too.
21:39:50 <elliott> Vorpal: The reason PayPal, Google Checkout, etc. exist is because they did all that for you.
21:40:14 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you have a nose. Turns out a gecko has a nose.
21:40:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ooh we could make this into a meme!
21:41:01 <elliott> I killed 16 million people. Turns out Hitler also killed 16 million people.
21:41:12 <pikhq> elliott: ... Huh. Ubuntu plans to stop using X in the future.
21:41:27 <elliott> pikhq: unity is X-based if that's what you mean
21:41:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, and replace it with what?
21:41:33 <pikhq> elliott: Wayland isn't.
21:41:38 <elliott> i was about to say wayland
21:41:45 <nooga> i need clock interrupt
21:41:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: that was a bit less detail than i wanted
21:41:55 <elliott> nooga: are you *sure* it had one
21:42:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, reasons this won't happen: 3D drivers
21:42:07 <elliott> nooga: i know asiekierka had some sort of clock interrupt thing going
21:42:11 <nooga> that's why i'm trying to look it up
21:42:13 <elliott> but he's incredibly irritating and also not right here
21:42:27 <fizzie> At least they're not saying Wayland in 11.04 yet; that one's just Unity.
21:42:29 <elliott> <Vorpal> pikhq, reasons this won't happen: 3D drivers
21:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, noveau you mean
21:43:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: Uh, Nvidia's the only one that is likely to be a pain.
21:43:33 <elliott> Vorpal: The driver is called nv.
21:43:50 <pikhq> elliott: No, nv is the one without any 3D acceleration.
21:43:55 <pikhq> elliott: It's nouveau.
21:44:39 <Vorpal> anyway. what is this wayland?
21:44:46 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server%29
21:44:46 <Vorpal> googling I can't find much
21:45:22 <Vorpal> then it has a chance....
21:45:37 <pikhq> Also, with Ubuntu switching to Wayland I'd imagine Nvidia would port their system to go through KMS and DRM.
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21:46:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, would that leave X users out cold?
21:46:10 <fizzie> nooga: The CIA (6526) has two 16-bit timers, and you can rig them up so that one firing decrements the other (so you get one 32-bit timer); they'll send an iterrupt when they go to zero.
21:46:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, you can run X on it.
21:46:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, or do they reckon other distros are important enough?
21:46:30 <elliott> pikhq: he means the driver
21:46:39 <elliott> i.e. "would the driver still work with X"
21:46:46 <elliott> <fizzie> nooga: The CIA (6526) has two 16-bit timers, and you can rig them up so that one firing decrements the other (so you get one 32-bit timer); they'll send an iterrupt when they go to zero.
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21:47:07 <fizzie> CIA1 is hooked to the IRQ line, and CIA2 to the NMI line, and both have their own set of two timers.
21:47:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: KMS and DRM are what X uses for the builtin accelerated drivers these days.
21:47:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nvidia, to be a pain, just *does their own god-damned bottom layer*.
21:47:32 <elliott> nooga: there is http://lng.sourceforge.net/ but *beware* of the license before reading the code, I'm not sure what license it is
21:47:33 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, elliott, so, is this completely insane of Shuttleworth?
21:47:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, this is moving away from X which is the worst thing ever
21:47:47 <elliott> also, you can run an X server on wayland
21:47:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: X sucks ass.
21:47:52 <elliott> and then do some fun to have X window --> wayland window
21:48:03 <elliott> and so X11 backwards compatibility could be retained
21:48:17 <pikhq> elliott: Just a rootless X server; not very hard.
21:48:24 <elliott> I think gtk can render to wayland
21:48:29 <elliott> I think clutter can render to wayland
21:48:37 <elliott> and i think gtk is being made to output to clutter? not sure
21:48:46 <elliott> pretty sure qt can do it or if it can't, won't be hard to
21:48:53 <elliott> Qt's rendering backend is easily switchable
21:49:07 <elliott> so point is, that's all the applications ubuntu ships, already working
21:49:14 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutter_%28toolkit%29
21:49:27 <Vorpal> ah that is why I never heard about it before then :P
21:49:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Metacity 3 is going to be Mutter, which is Clutter-based
21:49:36 <elliott> Vorpal: it's also what gnome shell is based on :-P
21:49:51 <elliott> do not fear! I will maintain alacrity-panel until the sun goes cold.
21:49:59 <Vorpal> elliott, also ubuntu ships non QT/GTK apps still.
21:50:01 <elliott> (alacrity-panel = the probable name for my gnome-panel fork when they stop maintaining it)
21:50:07 <Vorpal> probably mostly in universe though
21:50:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean the default shipping set.
21:50:18 <elliott> And also 90% of what anyone will use, really.
21:50:38 <elliott> GTK + Qt is almost a duopoly (with GTK in the lead for open source software but Qt for proprietary, I think)
21:50:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what about weird own-toolkit electrical engineering things?
21:50:47 <Vorpal> I used some such thing a few months ago
21:50:51 <elliott> Vorpal: as I said, Wayland can host an X11 server
21:50:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Rootless X server.
21:51:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which already exists.
21:51:08 <elliott> Vorpal: presumably Ubuntu would do a systemd-style ( ;) ) thing of starting an X server when stuff talks to the socket.
21:51:16 <elliott> Vorpal: and then close it when they disconnect
21:51:17 <pikhq> No worse than running an X app on OS X.
21:51:27 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, and you can set the timers to count pulses from an external source; the lines for that are wired to the user port. It's the flexible.
21:51:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, I hope it will be better than X app on OS X
21:51:35 <elliott> nooga: <fizzie> elliott: Oh, and you can set the timers to count pulses from an external source; the lines for that are wired to the user port. It's the flexible.
21:51:40 <elliott> Vorpal: X11.app is pretty good.
21:51:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I only used X11.app back in 10.4
21:52:02 <elliott> Vorpal: X11.app is literally X.Org :)
21:52:05 <Vorpal> maybe it got better since then
21:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, MeeGo also uses Clutter.
21:52:23 <elliott> At least the netbook version.
21:52:28 <elliott> Clutter is an open source (LGPL 2.1) software library for creating fast, compelling, portable, and dynamic graphical user interfaces. It is a core part of MeeGo, and is supported by the open source community. Its development is sponsored by Intel.
21:52:31 <fizzie> Clutter *really* is hip nowadays.
21:52:32 <Vorpal> yeah but that is embedded, less weird
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21:52:46 <Vorpal> elliott, intel everywhere you look...
21:52:50 <Vorpal> taking over the world!
21:52:58 <Vorpal> </open-bsd release song>
21:53:06 <elliott> Yeah, Intel have their claws firmly in Linux now. :)
21:53:08 <Vorpal> (or something like it at least)
21:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is worrying!
21:53:22 <elliott> Best graphics support, behind all the cool new graphics technologies...
21:53:46 <Vorpal> elliott, except for actual purposes nvidia still outperforms everyone
21:53:58 <Vorpal> due to better than ati/amd drivers still
21:54:02 <elliott> Yeah, but you cut yourself at the unfreeness.
21:54:03 <Vorpal> and better hardware than intel
21:54:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: Intel's got the least dickish graphics support.
21:54:17 <fizzie> Though the ubuntumen say Mutter/Clutter (though maybe they say it's Mutter's fault) is too slow, which is why the whole Unity-on-Compiz thing.
21:54:30 <pikhq> And Nvidia, well, they're still assholes.
21:54:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, true, but look at FPS
21:54:42 <elliott> fizzie: They built Ubuntu Netbook Edition's desktop-thing on Clutter.
21:54:47 <nooga> elliott: that LNG looks quite good
21:54:47 <elliott> fizzie: Until Unity. So yeah.
21:55:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: The only issue with Intel is they make low-end graphics cards.
21:55:08 <elliott> nooga: it is, but (1) C64 only (2) bitrotten (ok, it is c64/atari 8-bit, but still)
21:55:11 <elliott> nooga: also it doesn't run in VICE
21:55:15 <elliott> can't detect IDE64 for some reason
21:55:19 <elliott> pikhq: LARRRRABEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
21:55:24 <Sgeo> Intel Integrated is pain on a stick
21:55:27 <pikhq> But they're perfectly supported, so that's quite beneficial.
21:55:30 <elliott> pikhq: It'll FELLATE your DISPLAY with 3D PIXELS
21:55:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what happened to larrabee?
21:55:42 <elliott> It is 100% pure MICHAEL ABRASH EJACULATE.
21:55:55 <elliott> Every day Michael Abrash steps into a new body, just to work on Larrabee.
21:56:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Intel found out it was too slow
21:56:17 <Vorpal> elliott, who is M. Abrash?
21:56:25 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Abrash
21:56:35 <elliott> You may know him for this: http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86dc32d970b-pi
21:56:40 <zzo38> Maybe I can make a variant of TeX where \immediate\box255 ships out a box.
21:56:41 <elliott> (sorry for codinghorror link. it's just a png)
21:56:49 <elliott> Vorpal: He's the guy behind Larrabee.
21:57:04 <Vorpal> elliott, so what are they retargeting larrabee for?
21:57:21 <pikhq> elliott: There's still a decent chance they'll make consumer-level Larrabees in the future. They currently plan to release it as a research platform.
21:57:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'll just not answer that.
21:57:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Suffice to say it is literally the worst.
21:57:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Larrabee is the codename for a GPGPU chip that Intel is developing separately from its current line of integrated graphics accelerators. The chip was to be released in 2010 as the core of a consumer 3D graphics card, but these plans were cancelled due to delays and disappointing early performance figures.[1] Larrabee will now be released as a platform for research and development in computer graphics and HPC. A future version of Larrabee ma
21:57:37 <elliott> ntually power a consumer graphics card, but Intel has not discussed specific plans.[2] The name Larrabee is rumored to have come from Larrabee State Park in Washington.[citation needed]
21:58:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The worst.
21:58:19 <pikhq> What I find promising about it is that it would make ray tracing practical.
21:59:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I declined to answer.
21:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, perhaps you could shed some light on the mystery.
21:59:38 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It sucks.
22:00:04 <elliott> I have officially gone crazy.
22:01:15 <Vorpal> elliott, so you have indeed
22:03:30 <Sgeo> The guy might not be the most competent person?
22:04:17 <olsner> the probability that he is the most competent person is very low
22:04:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: try reading it
22:04:47 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it's so Lovecraftian that elliott and pikhq have been left traumatised by it.
22:05:51 <Vorpal> coding horror? oh no, what a horror
22:06:11 <fizzie> nooga, elliott: The "Mapping the C128" book has a pretty nice-if-a-bit-verbose description of the CIA interrupts -- they're identical to C64, all registers in the same place and all, I think -- though the PDF scan is pretty awful to browse, and the book organization none too clear (see page 480 and around; 243 in the PDF).
22:06:27 <fizzie> I'm sure there's more than enough stuff in a web-readable form too, though.
22:07:45 <fizzie> (You *could* just use the VIC raster-line interrupt as a simple 50/60 Hz timer too.)
22:10:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:12:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, how fast can you get clock?
22:13:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: The CIA timers have a 1 MHz resolution.
22:14:08 <fizzie> (Of course the CPU also has a 1 MHz clock, so it's not perhaps very useful to get interrupts at that rate.)
22:14:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, CIA standing for?
22:15:19 <fizzie> "Complex Interface Adapter"
22:15:32 <fizzie> It's one of the supporting chips, one that does all kinds of I/O.
22:16:49 <fizzie> There's 2*16 "general-purpose" IO pins there; the joystick buttons, and some user port lines, and what-not are connected there. (And some are used to remap the video memory by providing high address bits.)
22:17:21 <fizzie> And some hardware help for serial port stuff.
22:19:04 <fizzie> The analog X/Y joystick lines -- though the usual sort of joysticks are digital up/down/left/right dealies -- are IIRC connected to the sound chip's A/D converters.
22:19:16 <fizzie> But that's not so strange! Many PC sound cards have joystick ports too.
22:19:21 <pikhq> 1 more day until the nominal time actually matches solar time here. Whoo.
22:19:27 <elliott> Vorpal: # inst http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/wget/wget-1.12.tar.gz --disable-iri
22:19:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Be afraid. BE VERY AFRAID
22:19:55 <elliott> (If I used --disable-ipv6, you'd get angry.)
22:22:18 * pikhq *really* hates being UTC-6 most of the year while living right along the UTC-7 meridian.
22:23:09 <elliott> Vorpal has killed himself after realising what i am doing
22:27:47 <elliott> Or maybe he hasn't quite realised.
22:38:27 <elliott> $ ./inst http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/wget/wget-1.12.tar.gz
22:38:27 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
22:41:24 <elliott> "As a very simple example, in an en-US locale, a number would be formatted as 1,234.56 -- but in an en-GB locale, the number might be formatted as 1.234,56 instead."
22:41:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Us wacky Brits and our European number formatting.
22:42:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Some silly person.
22:43:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:44:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:51:10 <elliott> $ ./inst http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/wget/wget-1.12.tar.gz
22:51:10 <elliott> * Downloading wget 1.12...
22:51:10 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
22:51:10 <elliott> * Configuring wget 1.12...
22:51:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:52:16 <pikhq> elliott: Did you... Just...
22:52:33 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:52:46 <pikhq> elliott: You seriously made a script that builds a random tarball that's well-behaved.
22:52:55 <pikhq> elliott: Does it also install it or make a package?
22:52:58 <elliott> pikhq: Well, right now it needs to be autoconf.
22:52:58 <Sgeo> What did elliott just do?
22:53:14 <elliott> pikhq: Make a package would be easy, just feed it into checkinstall basically. It now runs "sudo make install" which isn't much but it's a start.
22:53:17 <pikhq> elliott: "Well-behaved" means "./configure&&make&&make install".
22:53:31 <elliott> pikhq: Plan: ptrace the "make install", save list of installed files somewhere, use this to uninstall.
22:53:38 <elliott> Something like that, anyway.
22:53:42 <pikhq> So, is this for Kitten?
22:53:48 <pikhq> Or just for kicks?
22:53:50 <Sgeo> What's so horrible about that?
22:53:54 <elliott> pikhq: Uh, maybe! It depends how well it ends up working.
22:53:57 <pikhq> I approve either way.
22:54:15 <elliott> pikhq: Also planned: Give it a git/hg/svn URL and it'll use that.
22:54:34 <elliott> pikhq: (If I can get the SHEER BRASS BALLS to do it, even an http://github.com/person/project URL will be converted.)
22:55:14 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know, it'd be *really* awesome to use that to build a complete Linux system.
22:55:28 <elliott> pikhq: Dear god. I hope we never see that day, for it scares me.
22:55:49 <pikhq> elliott: Pity this wouldn't have much in the way of dependency handling. Ah well.
22:56:10 <elliott> configure errors out? Names a package? Google it, pick the top result, pick the first tarball, auto-run inst on it.
22:56:14 <elliott> WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG
22:56:29 <pikhq> A *lot* of things.
22:57:39 <elliott> pikhq: I was inspired to do this by the OS X "homebrew" package manager, whose packages look like this: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/aalib.rb
22:58:24 <elliott> pikhq: More complex: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/wget.rb
22:58:30 <elliott> pikhq: Even more complex: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/git.rb
22:58:35 <elliott> pikhq: Non-autotools: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/ack.rb
22:58:45 <elliott> pikhq: And that's probably what Kitten's package manager will look vaguely like. But hey, inst(1).
23:00:26 <pikhq> elliott: That's an astoundingly reasonable package manager.
23:00:42 <elliott> pikhq: It is; it's also OS X only :P (Well, it might run on other stuff, but...)
23:00:56 <elliott> pikhq: It installs into a Gobo-style /usr/local/Cellar/pkgname/version prefix.
23:01:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:01:53 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/IMG_4542.JPG
23:02:12 <Gregor> elliott: Chromium doesn't work. Probably the JIT creates asm the processor can't run :P
23:03:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42071 with Debian
23:04:45 <elliott> Gregor: Well, yeah, V8 is x86/PPC only :P
23:04:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:04:58 <elliott> Gregor: You could run a WebKit browser that didn't use its JS engine, though.
23:05:02 <Gregor> elliott: ... I'm quite sure it has ARM support.
23:05:11 <Gregor> elliott: Such as the one in that screenshot for example X_X
23:05:52 <elliott> V8 implements ECMAScript as specified in ECMA-262, 3rd edition, and runs on Windows XP and Vista, Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard), and Linux systems that use IA-32 or ARM processors.
23:06:05 <Gregor> Just not THIS ARM processor :P
23:06:19 <elliott> Gregor: So will you sell it? :P
23:06:36 <Gregor> I need time to consider the ramifications or something :P
23:07:59 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I'm giving you over $25 MORE than the postage cost. That's ridiculous and I'm insane :P
23:08:14 <elliott> IT JUST KEEPS GETTING BETTER AND BETTER
23:08:18 <Gregor> 800x480. Where do you keep reading this nonsense.
23:09:03 <Gregor> elliott: But I bought it for $50 and I've put work into it :P
23:09:18 <elliott> Gregor: You ran debootstrap and installed a VNC app :P
23:09:22 <elliott> <Gregor> 800x480. Where do you keep reading this nonsense.
23:09:37 <elliott> Gregor: BUT DUDE YOU COULD LIKE USE IT FOR WEARABLE COMPUTING
23:09:46 <Gregor> No, you severely couldn't.
23:10:47 <Gregor> Because it has no useful I/O.
23:11:19 <Gregor> Certainly not for video.
23:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, does having a trained parrot on your shoulder count as wearable computing?
23:14:08 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: No, but having a brain in your head does. Or something.
23:15:16 <Gregor> elliott: Oh and btw you forget that I also had to figure out wtf it was, root it, poke at the different rooted ROMs until I found one that didn't suck, and buy a 2GB MicroSDHC card.
23:15:41 <elliott> Gregor: Surely it was obviously Android? :P
23:15:54 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, I'll throw in the cost of the MicroSD card because I have ENDLESS MONEY to spend on WORTHLESS CARP
23:15:56 <Gregor> ... surely ... it was obviously ... Android ...
23:16:15 <Gregor> What DEVICE it was. They all lie :P
23:16:23 <Gregor> That is, what class of ROMs it can run.
23:16:37 <Gregor> It is NOT an M002, but it actually turns out to be compatible with M002 ROMs. Also it has "M-002" stamped on it.
23:17:05 <elliott> Gregor: What other crap have you bought that I can buy at DISCOUNT PRICES
23:17:53 <Gregor> A wide selection of inflatable love dolls.
23:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, FWIW, I have a semi-working simulation of a gravitational system in 2D here.
23:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't actually gotten the forces and such working fully, but it's a start.
23:21:54 -!- Gregor has set topic: 15 days without oerjan. Outlook bleak. Channel falling apart. We cannot go on this way. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:22:32 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: and orbits form automatically?
23:22:45 <Sgeo> elliott, you will probably see this line.
23:23:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What language?
23:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it divides by zero if the point masses collide, but that's no great matter.
23:23:39 <elliott> Gregor: He's just lost his shell account or something.
23:23:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There are SDL bindings for CL? Or what?
23:24:11 <elliott> Gregor: He commented on the Gödel's Last Letter or P=NP blog two days ago.
23:24:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I have never bothered working out how to use them.
23:24:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: SDL is basically pixel-plotting :P
23:25:37 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: your prog has no gui?
23:26:07 <Sgeo> I don't accidentally have Gregor on ignore, do I?
23:26:16 <oklopol> so basically, you have set of (pos, speed) pairs, and at each iteration, you go through all pairs of these pairs, and apply the gravity formula, then add speeds to positions?
23:26:25 <oklopol> that's 2 lines of mathematica
23:27:18 <Gregor> elliott: I was referring to the outlook for this channel, not for oerjan :P
23:27:18 <elliott> <oklopol> that's 2 lines of mathematica
23:27:24 <elliott> game written in mathematica :D
23:27:27 <elliott> Gregor: just letting you know :p
23:28:30 <HackEgo> 177|<Aftran> I have a feeling iPods still beat me.
23:28:30 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
23:28:31 <HackEgo> 187|<CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
23:29:15 <elliott> !sh for i in $(seq 10); do echo '`quote'; done
23:29:20 <elliott> Oh, wait, that won't work.
23:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, OK, how do you get the gravity formula getting the vector properly? Can you work out the x and y components separately?
23:29:31 <elliott> None of our current bots will output N lines :(
23:29:33 <HackEgo> 199|<Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
23:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I really need to find a non pen-and-paper way of doing maths...
23:31:55 <oklopol> my way is to close my eyes and lie down
23:32:46 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, OK, how do you get the gravity formula getting the vector properly? Can you work out the x and y components separately?" <<< idgi
23:33:16 <oklopol> for the gravity formula, all you need is mass and distance
23:33:33 <oklopol> distance is (a - b).calculate_my_distance()
23:33:49 <oklopol> where a and b are where the points are
23:34:10 <oklopol> and their masses can be calculated by doing a nop on their preset masses
23:36:26 <oklopol> i don't get it (the question)
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23:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, F=Gm_1m_2/r*2 only gives you the magnitude of the force.
23:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The direction needs to be worked out separately, or so I thought.
23:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, this allows considerable streamlining of the code
23:40:17 <nooga> are #DNT! comments in my code clear enough to make ppl not to touch the commented code?
23:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I can take out the mess of trig I was previously using.
23:41:08 <elliott> <nooga> are #DNT! comments in my code clear enough to make ppl not to touch the commented code?
23:41:14 <elliott> nooga: the commented-out code?
23:41:23 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:41:30 <elliott> # if you get rid of this i will scalpel fire mucho gracias three dead no witnesses
23:41:53 <nooga> i will replace all #DNT! with this
23:42:54 <elliott> # sometimes when the people touch the code they end up in a lake disembowelled if the glove fits you must acquit it fits and i'm acquitted. sometimes this happens
23:43:25 <nooga> singletons in Ruby are just unfair
23:43:27 <nooga> class Klass include Singleton
23:45:28 <elliott> pikhq: why the space why the awesome
23:46:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, FWIW, working out the orbit is trivial no matter what dimension it is.
23:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> In 4 or more dimensions, they decay to escapes or collisions, while in 2D you tend to get flowery patterns with wildly varying distances.
23:55:49 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:56:32 <pikhq> elliott: Gates to eliminate mosquito-born diseases via genetic engineering.
23:56:41 <pikhq> I think "Awesome." is merited.
23:57:00 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but does he still use Windows?
23:57:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Beat you to it.
23:57:33 <pikhq> I've got to give Gates credit: he uses his wealth damned well.
23:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So that he's remembered as the man who killed all the mosquitoes with their bare hands, not the man who RUINED FOREVER the home computer market
23:59:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: He's also funding golden rice.
23:59:25 <elliott> pikhq: I'd just eliminate the mosquito entirely personally.
23:59:56 <pikhq> elliott: Mosquitos serve an important part of the foodchain.