00:00:02 <Sgeo> Vorpal, it's from shutup
00:00:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo, then easy to /ignore
00:00:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Sgeo clearly realises how irritating he is sometimes because he hasn't /ignored it yet.
00:00:23 <elliott> I consider it a public service.
00:00:31 <Vorpal> elliott, you run that bot?
00:00:33 <Sgeo> I rarely use ignore
00:00:39 <elliott> Vorpal: "No, it runs on magic."
00:00:43 <Sgeo> Huh, shutup isn't even in the channel
00:00:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well it could be someone else running it
00:00:55 <Vorpal> Sgeo, indeed which was why I wondered
00:00:56 <Sgeo> Are you hitting tunes.org servers repeatedly?
00:01:07 <Sgeo> Now I'm ticked.
00:01:22 <Vorpal> elliott, so how does it work then?
00:01:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Its methods do not concern you.
00:01:47 <elliott> Nobody's resources are being taken up I can assure you.
00:02:00 * Sgeo glares at updog suspiciously
00:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, Vorpal, shutup's mechanics are an industrial secret knowledge of which is only permitted to senior HHI personnel.
00:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm genuinely interested
00:02:12 <elliott> I wrote updog in like five minutes Sgeo :P
00:02:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, stop being so silly
00:02:33 <Vorpal> elliott, how many bots do you have on here?
00:02:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Everything but botte! Anyway, this is boring.
00:02:49 <Sgeo> elliott, updog, or the updog part of the script?
00:02:59 <elliott> Sgeo: I wrote the whole program in about 3 minutes.
00:03:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Well *I'm* tlaking about the cube.
00:03:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have we got a TNT kit yet
00:03:42 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=TNT+kit
00:05:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, he is talking about a hmod kit
00:05:46 <Vorpal> elliott, also I just checked for you and the answer is no
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00:13:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are the biome-compliant leaves any good?
00:14:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The leaves, I said.
00:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The leaves might well be, but they won't match the grass.
00:14:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 'S just that the leaves I normally use with Painterly have an annoying blue dot on them.
00:15:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's only for one colour
00:17:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you noticed how ugly Painterly coal ore is?
00:18:09 <elliott> ?Just remove the borders from my glass entirely.
00:27:28 <elliott> "Don't you just hate fantasy?
00:27:28 <elliott> Fantasy is boring. It's all about a hero killing dragons or rescuing princesses. And in the end, the hero gets a big reward from some autocratic ruler, and spends the rest of his life banging said princess."
00:27:34 <elliott> --start of a texture pack thread on minecraftforums
00:29:26 <elliott> "Monster Spawners? Uhh... actually, I don't see how to modernize this. I have at least put caution stripes on it so that it's safer, though. (Caution stripes make everything safer.)"
00:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it appears that using LiquidThreads on one's talkpage is now The Hip New Thing at RW.
00:36:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh dear god.
00:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Admittedly, they did get rid of those hideous gray boxes.
00:37:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Add a new comment without using liquidthreads and -- jesus christ that is so much UI noise.
00:37:33 <elliott> I look at that and my brain sees "computer".
00:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the _exact point_ I made when it was proposed.
00:38:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me you used the exact words "Pure, raw computer."
00:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Hopefully to the chagrin of many, this page is now running Liquid Threads.]]
00:38:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Halp on the server. I am lost
00:38:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Armondikov/archive
00:38:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He has summarised all his archives.
00:39:01 <elliott> In the most douchebaggy way possible.
00:39:07 <elliott> I really need to stop doing that.
00:39:15 <elliott> DOESN'T MATTER it's still hilariously obnoxiou
00:39:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think that the regular server is ... gone?
00:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> When LiquidThreads was proposed she basically said "All of you who don't like it are IDIOTS who CANNOT WORK THINGS OUT because you are SO MUCH STUPIDER than me.!
00:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I failed to realise this a few years ago and this mistake has hounded me since.
00:43:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Has any drainage happened?
00:43:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, I remember when I mocked RW and you went off in a huff. :p
00:43:35 <elliott> BUT WE HAVE CORRUPTED YOU NOW
00:44:06 <elliott> No I take credit thank you
00:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that they couldn't deal with a *single* troll was annoying me.
00:44:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Look up "MarcusCicero" somewhere; the saga is hilarious.
00:44:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Armondikov Look at the wonderful self-quote at the top.
00:44:46 <elliott> tl;dr Privacy is irrelevant because, lol, you gave someone your details so it's everything!
00:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> There have been at least *3* major conflicts over whether or not a self-admitted troll should be blocked.
00:45:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What is this WIGO thing on her page and why.
00:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, WIGO CP is the blow-by-blow report on Conservapedia; it spread from there.
00:46:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I find it hard to believe that RW has not already exhausted the finite amount of lulz obtainable from Conservapedium.
00:46:51 <elliott> Well it's basically their driving force isn't it.
00:47:09 <elliott> Wasn't that what sparked its *creation*?
00:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You seriously should look up MarcusCicero: the saga is utterly farcical.
00:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> TL;DR is that the old guard of ex-CP members view blocking anyone at all as being "worse than CP" and refuse to do anything about it.
00:48:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Armondikov/pearls
00:49:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ex-CP members? Don't you mean ex-trolls? :p
00:49:52 <elliott> Then again, one could argue that Conservapedia has actually turned into a satire wiki and its owner is just too dumb to realise that.
00:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, I mean the people who signed up to CP to troll it when it started.
00:50:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ugh @ those pearls.
00:50:54 <elliott> The Internet has destroyed all humbleness.
00:51:25 <j-invariant> "Random quotes that I like. They should be mostly mine, but attributed where possible."
00:51:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You perhaps coming on MC or are you going to bed soon.
00:52:41 <elliott> j-invariant: did you ever get minecraft working btw?
00:53:35 <j-invariant> well I think I would have to buy it to run it
00:54:13 <elliott> j-invariant: classic runs in browser fine with sun jvm
00:54:43 <elliott> j-invariant: but alpha is a totally different game reallyf
00:54:55 <elliott> j-invariant: I would recommend buying it, but I'm biased.
00:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, THINGS TO PUT IN THE CUBE: midair minecart track.
00:55:59 <j-invariant> # Once you've bought the game, it's yours. No DRM. <--- no source code though
00:56:19 <elliott> j-invariant: you can decompile it and make mods, people are crazy enough to
00:56:23 <elliott> there's even a deobfuscator :>
00:56:49 <elliott> j-invariant: no drm isn't strictly true ... it automatically updates on each run ... and if you don't authenticate with the server you can't do multiplayer so updates are pretty much forced. to be clear, notch is a terrible programmer, it's just that the game is /that/ fun
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01:15:28 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/4Sn6v.jpg Holy fucking cube3.
01:18:13 <elliott> fizzie: On ^: "All this to play spleef?"
01:18:25 <elliott> That would be the most epic game of Spleef ever.
01:18:38 <elliott> Holy shit, they did all that digging in a week.
01:24:42 <Sgeo> Was that dug out, or was the bridge and walls built up?
01:24:55 * Sgeo guesses the former, based on what elliott just said, but how can you tell?
01:25:13 <elliott> And because landscape don't come naturally like that.
01:25:28 <Sgeo> You can't build walls like that?
01:25:37 <elliott> It's flat stone with bedrock.
01:27:09 <elliott> Anyone can PM me at any time :P
01:38:40 <Sgeo> elliott, can I trick you into /nick'ing into something starting with Sgeo and mentioning Smalltalk?
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01:44:29 <Sgeo> aw does not trigger shutup
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01:50:19 <cheater99> i have finally found a popular language in which false == 1 and true == 0
01:51:56 <cheater99> did you ever manage to install linux on that laptop?
01:53:36 <elliott> cheater99: because it hates me
01:54:22 <cheater99> i'm sure it doesn't *really* hate you, it might just be a bit hung up.
02:08:52 <cheater99> Debian 6.0 "Squeeze" to be released with completely free Linux Kernel
02:11:35 <elliott> Vorpal: what are the cube coordinates?
02:17:02 <Sgeo> What's in the screenshot?
02:18:47 <Sgeo> The one that had that huge dug-out area
02:19:30 <elliott> Sgeo: some thing on the reddit server.
02:19:44 <elliott> The Cube is a 128x128x128 cube under construction. I believe it is larger than dome3.
02:20:17 <elliott> It is also not on the reddit server.
02:25:07 <Sgeo> Minecarts will crash the Reddit server?
02:25:35 <Sgeo> http://code.reddit.com/wiki/help/faqs/Minecraft#MinecraftSubredditRules
02:26:24 <elliott> Sgeo: Where does it say it will crash the server?
02:26:41 <Sgeo> Hold on, browser's acting up
02:26:53 <Sgeo> "Do Not Use Banned Items Current list is: Water, Ice, TNT, Fire, Tracks and Minecarts. They will crash the server, you will be banned."
02:27:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Where does it say it will crash the server?
02:27:59 <elliott> Sgeo: By crash it means because of server load.
02:28:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover knows there are far more effective ways though. Cough.
02:29:40 <Sgeo> Grr, minecraft's acting up
02:29:59 <elliott> Sgeo: You bought Minecraft?
02:30:17 <Sgeo> I'm playing with classic singleplayer
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02:36:05 <Sgeo> I appear to have hit bedrock rather quickly
02:36:56 <elliott> Sgeo: That's what happens when all digging happens instantly.
02:37:25 <Sgeo> What does current Minecraft do?
02:37:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, different blocks take longer to dig?
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02:38:07 <elliott> Classic is unlike Alpha in many, many ways.
02:41:38 <Sgeo> Oh, I didnt hit bedrock
02:42:04 <Sgeo> elliott, is freezing constantly one of them?
02:42:14 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, it doesn't freeze, no.
02:42:22 <elliott> Well. It does if you have rendering distance set too far.
02:42:37 * Sgeo hits elliott with a golem
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02:48:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_log_reader: Who is Mei and why are they annoying.
02:51:11 <Sgeo> I have reached some sort of underground cavern
02:51:52 <Sgeo> If it's going to freeze constantly like classic is doing: No.
02:52:19 <elliott> Sgeo: For one you run it outside of your browser.
02:55:59 <Sgeo> Lava does not, in fact, appear to be hot
02:56:29 <elliott> Sgeo: It kills you in Alpha.
02:57:47 <Sgeo> Is TNT useless in classic?
02:59:13 <elliott> Classic is basically a glorified tech demo that is endless amounts of fun if and only if you're the variant of autistic that just makes you want to build pointless structures with no obstacle or goal forever.
03:00:33 <Sgeo> elliott, ... I thought that was what Minecraft was about
03:01:34 <elliott> Sgeo: Shit comes out at night to kill you. You build traps to catch them to get food to restore health and sulphur to make TNT to make cannons and shit to get rid of them. You explore the infinitely-generated terrain and stay alive. You mine for materials and build something awesome while staying alive. You network it all with a minecart network. You go to hell and back. etc.
03:01:48 <elliott> OK, so monsters and health are disabled on our server, but there's still an awful lot of exploring and mining.
03:01:59 <elliott> With classic you can build anything by holding down right click for long enough.
03:02:05 <elliott> It's much more involved in Alpha.
03:02:42 <Sgeo> Wait, worlds are infinitely huge?
03:02:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Well. 4x the size of the Earth.
03:03:11 <elliott> Sgeo: (The coords have to fit into a 64-bit integer.)
03:03:31 <elliott> (And no, it is not possible to get to the edge in less than some hundreds of years.)
03:03:37 <elliott> (And it would probably just wrap around.
03:04:32 <elliott> Less when it was Alpha of course.
03:04:40 <elliott> Sgeo: And that buys you the final game too.
03:05:13 <Sgeo> elliott, ... I have limited ways of getting what little money I have online
03:05:34 <elliott> Sgeo: You're 21. Get a credit card.
03:05:54 * Sgeo will probably try to get a debit card
03:05:59 <Sgeo> Hook it up to paypal
03:06:07 <elliott> You're not going to ask your dad are you.
03:06:27 <Sgeo> I've bugged my dad about it in the past
03:06:33 <elliott> You're 21. Just go and get one.
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03:08:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Honestly. You're an adult.
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03:09:52 <Sgeo> Are there any minable objects with no value in and of itself?
03:11:08 <Sgeo> Any of them used as currency?
03:11:35 <elliott> Sgeo: No. All that it takes to mine anything is time and not much time at that (like 20s for obsidian, way less for everything else).
03:11:44 <elliott> Currency is useless. There is no scarcity. It has no reason to exist.
03:12:20 <Sgeo> It might take a while to find areas where certain things exist?
03:12:42 <elliott> A mountain is bound to contain whatever it is, even if it's diamond
03:12:53 <elliott> Sgeo: But why? What need is there for currency?
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03:32:50 <j-invariant> I never understood why people fixate on decimal representations of things
03:36:34 * Sgeo imagines filling a huge pit with obsidian, leaving a small chute down, and having someone fall in
03:38:10 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OML8FtI_tGk&feature=related what's that blue tower?
03:42:14 <coppro> nooga: A number of the CSC are working on a minecraft reimplementation (official working title: boxes). It will be released once the not-suckage level is reasonable, or probably when they get bored of it
03:42:23 <elliott> Sgeo: Water. That's a really old version though.
03:42:25 <elliott> The game does not look like that now.
03:43:47 <coppro> elliott: also you forgot dbelange
03:43:59 <elliott> coppro: he's your suckpuppet
03:44:06 <coppro> elliott: hahahahahahahahahah
03:44:27 <coppro> elliott: you want to say that to my face?
03:45:49 <elliott> coppro: dbelang is your sockpuppet!
03:47:14 <elliott> Heh, RTF is based on LaTeX.
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04:04:03 <Sgeo> It's possible to build normally in The Nether, right?
04:22:56 <Sgeo> "It has been confirmed that portals do not work in multiplayer yet; while they can be created, they can not teleport you."
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04:58:53 <Sgeo> Obsidian looks.... annoying to obtain
04:59:00 <Sgeo> Mark my words, I will run an Obsidian farm
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06:08:42 <j-invariant> And thus, we get the surprising implication that, if aliens with infinite computational powers came to earth, they could not only beat humans at chess, but could also mathematically prove they were playing chess perfectly
06:10:05 <pikhq> s/chess/$GAME_FOR_WHICH_PERFECT_PLAY_NETS_A_WIN/
06:21:48 <pikhq> int main[] = { 0x0A692568, 0x6AE08900, 0xB8905001, (int)printf, 0x44FFD0FF, 0x7C8104E4, 0x03E804E4, 0xEB7E0000, 0xECAFFEEB };
06:42:09 <augur> nowwhat.net/transfers/RoseFactorizations.png
06:42:14 <augur> wellnowwhat.net/transfers/RoseFactorizations.png
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07:50:06 <Gregor> pikhq: lawl, what platform is that for?
07:50:58 <coppro> j-invariant: surprising?
07:51:10 <coppro> how is chess' solvability surprising?
07:51:18 <coppro> hell, even Go is solvable
07:54:21 <Gregor> In principle, every game with no random element and many games with random elements are solvable.
07:58:29 <coppro> in some games, solvability isn't the point
07:58:39 <coppro> those ones computers will not grasp for a long time
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08:00:39 <zzo38> Chess and Go is obviously solvable if you mean mathematically (rather than practically) by "solvable".
08:17:11 <Gregor> Actually, is that the case? Is there conceivably a game, say with no randomness and infinite states, that is simply unsolvable? (although you could still solve a good enough subset to stump any human of course)
08:17:31 <coppro> Gregor: depends what you mean by solvable
08:17:37 <Gregor> I was just about to say that :)
08:17:53 <Gregor> More precisely, I was going to say "I suppose that depends on what you mean by solvable."
08:18:02 <coppro> I believe if it's infinite, you have the halting problem
08:18:53 <Gregor> I'll say that it's solvable if there exists a program which is guaranteed to win or stalemate against any opponent, where infinitely-recurring-states and any in-game-defined stalemate are stalemates.
08:20:00 <coppro> indeed, then you have the halting problem
08:20:30 <Gregor> Not necessarily, I can easily define games with infinite states but trivial programs to win.
08:20:46 <coppro> the halting problem doesn't mean all programs are difficult to reason about
08:20:55 <Gregor> Although then I guess it starts to depend on your definition of "game", since corner cases are lame 8-D
08:21:26 <zzo38> Gregor: Do you mean the game "My Dad Has More Money Than You", in which there is infinite possibilities but it is easy to always the second player wins?
08:21:32 <Gregor> "Given an infinite tape, both players choose a cell and write a character there at the same time. The first player to write the character 'a' wins. If both characters write the character 'a' in the same turn, it's a stalemate." <-- solvable "infinite" game
08:22:01 <Gregor> zzo38: Idonno that game :P
08:22:07 <coppro> Gregor: int main() { while (false) { } } // solvable "infinite" program
08:22:32 <Gregor> Of course, in my previous "game" the enormous majority of cases are reducible into one, and your program has a single strictly-recurring state.
08:25:09 <coppro> it terminates immediately
08:25:16 <Gregor> Sorry, read it as while true for some reason.
08:25:53 <coppro> any finite game is clearly solvable by a TM
08:26:07 <coppro> but does that extend to infinity?
08:26:15 * coppro doesn't know enough computational theory to say
08:26:15 <Gregor> OK, let us, using our extraordinary #esoteric minds, invent a game which is playable with paper and pencil, has infinite state-space, and we suspect to be generally unsolvable (although it may be solvable for "reasonable" board sizes)
08:26:59 <Gregor> Solvability of things with infinite states becomes very fuzzy, you have to prove you can collapse infinite states into finite states.
08:27:01 <coppro> Gregor: each person has a massive piece of a penrose tiling to start with
08:27:23 <coppro> Gregor: each move is the place one piece of tile, plus any others whose placement is forced by that one
08:27:35 <Gregor> How massive is "massive"
08:27:42 <coppro> Gregor: sufficiently big
08:27:55 <coppro> a player wins when their piece is replicated on the gameboard
08:28:32 <Gregor> ... you mean loses, right?
08:28:49 <coppro> the players' pieces are not part of the board
08:29:23 <coppro> actually I don't know if this one is potentially infinite
08:29:30 <Gregor> Yeah, I don't think it is.
08:29:41 <Gregor> Any state that's bigger than the gameboards is reducible I think.
08:29:55 <Gregor> (To the union of several smaller states)
08:30:16 <coppro> uh, sure, but you still need to get those states to appear on the board
08:30:16 <zzo38> Make a game that is known to be solvable if and only if Goldbach's conjecture is true.
08:30:22 <coppro> and remember, penrose tiling is aperiodic
08:30:36 <zzo38> And then prove it.
08:31:10 <Gregor> coppro: Ohhhh, I see the trick ... that may in fact work, but it's hard to inject strategy into, since I'm betting it'd be nigh-on impossible to guess what will help you :)
08:31:29 <coppro> Gregor: indeed; you didn't say that guessability was a criterion :)
08:31:59 <Gregor> OK, let us, using our extraordinary #esoteric minds, invent a game which is playable with paper and pencil, has infinite state-space, is fun, playable and strategic for humans, and we suspect to be generally unsolvable (although it may be solvable for "reasonable" board sizes)
08:32:23 <Gregor> I'm thinking something with graphs.
08:33:18 <Gregor> Something to do with if you get N in a row, then the opponent has f(N) turns to get N+1 in a row or you win. Then it repeats when they have N+1
08:35:47 <Gregor> So lesse. The gameboard is a giant (infinite) grid, you'd probably need a counter to keep track of turns too, one player starts by placing a single X, and then the opponent has to get two Os in a row within f(1) turns (f to be defined) ... with a few caveats I think we may be on to something doable.
08:36:50 <Gregor> Oh, I should add one more requirement to my giant list above: The game has to be non-random.
08:37:26 <zzo38> I will tell you the "My Dad Has More Money Than You" game: First player says some integer. And then second player says an integer. Whoever says high number wins. Obviously second player can win. But there is an infinite number of choices.
08:37:35 <zzo38> Gregor: Does it also have to be complete information? Or not?
08:37:37 <coppro> Gregor: ah, yeah, I was assuming perfect information
08:38:15 <Gregor> I could go either way, opinions?
08:38:36 <zzo38> Gregor: You can try it both ways to see what happens.
08:38:42 <Gregor> The concern is really solvability, but it feels like a more impressive feat if you have a game that can't be solved and has no information hiding :)
08:39:00 <coppro> I wouldn't look for such a game
08:39:12 <coppro> rather, I'd prove its existence by showing equivalence to the halting problem
08:39:35 <Gregor> The point is to actually PLAY this game at some point too X-P
08:40:40 <coppro> in fact, I have a sketch of the proof now
08:40:50 <coppro> based upon a DFS of the game's state graph
08:42:52 <Gregor> You have no flair for invention :P
08:45:26 <coppro> I like category theory
08:46:06 <zzo38> Now make rock-paper-scissors game with two ducks.
08:46:58 <Gregor> pooppy has gone off into proovy-land
08:47:30 <olsner> Gregor: apparently you're inventing some kind of game of strategy? strategy is boring...
08:48:17 <Gregor> olsner: Then play http://codu.org/wiki/Hydra , it has more randomness :P
08:48:45 <zzo38> Now make a game and prove that any strategy you come up with is provable to be the worst possible strategy that exists (worse than any others), no matter what strategy you select to make this proof.
08:49:27 <Gregor> *worse or equally bad as
08:49:55 <zzo38> Gregor: No. Strictly worse only. No equally bad as.
08:50:25 <olsner> "She's like the Internet with breasts! Oh wait, Internet has breasts." <-- House being funny
08:50:26 <Gregor> zzo38: But nearly any strategy will have an almost-identical strategy with no game-relevant difference that performs equally poorly.
08:51:01 <Gregor> zzo38: Like with my game, always write "b" and always write "c" are equally-bad strategies, and with your game (as the second player), saying the other's number minus one and minus two are equally bad strategies.
08:52:41 <zzo38> Gregor: Then add that as the restriction and then consrtuct a proof for such a game with a proof of non-proof of non-proof of proof with the axiom of choice assuming it is a game with hidden information but no randomness.
08:53:39 <zzo38> First assume the axiom of choice is correct and then assume it is incorrect and then make a game from the results of the proof.
08:55:32 <zzo38> Also, I think if you make it the game has points at the end instead of just win/lose, then, for example, you have whatever number you said is the difference of you (winner's) and the other is your points. Now, there is no best strategy and no worst strategy.
08:56:15 <zzo38> Even though it is still easily the second player wins.
09:03:17 <coppro> I can now switch desktops and invert colors in x simultaneously
09:04:17 <coppro> for not burning my eyes
09:06:08 <Gregor> Ahhhh ... but why does that need to be associated with switching desktops oh of course because everything but your web browser is configured properly to be white-on-black.
09:08:31 <coppro> but have you tried making a browser to white-on-black?
09:08:49 <coppro> everyone and their brother explicitly specifies that the background color be white
09:09:53 <Gregor> And yes, it's impossible.
09:10:01 <Gregor> Hence why I listed that one in particular :)
09:10:31 <Gregor> I actually submitted a bug to Mozilla about problems with their (now, I believe, unsupported) settings to override page colors.
09:10:45 <Gregor> A bug which sat for two years and then was closed as unresolved :P
09:11:14 <coppro> actually, there is a way
09:11:24 <coppro> with !important styling tags
09:11:51 <coppro> !important styling tags in userChrome.css will override anything and everything in a web site's css
09:11:57 <Gregor> Nope, the bug wasn't with getting the colors in, it was with opacity issues resulting from that.
09:13:00 <Gregor> Basically, since divs are by default transparent, if you a) force it to color them black, then you get weird effects when they're supposed to be transparent, or b) force it not to color them, you get unreadable stuff when they're supposed to be opaque.
09:13:16 <Gregor> It didn't have any way to say "Make things which are opaque black"
09:14:22 <coppro> I don't think CSS allows for such a thing
09:14:40 <coppro> so it's not mozilla's fault
09:14:52 <coppro> it's CSS' for not making alpha a separate propertyu
09:14:58 <zzo38> Can you make it turn off alpha transparency and instead select opaque/transparent/background-color based on some simple algorithm to decide?
09:15:09 <coppro> not without JS that is
09:15:17 <coppro> a solid GreaseMonkey script could easily do it
09:26:35 <Gregor> We've lost site of the awesome game :P
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09:44:56 <zzo38> Why is there *no* command in TeX to check if a paragraph contains overfull lines?
09:48:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: I use TeX for many things it is a better typesetting system than most.
09:49:35 <zzo38> I also like the DVI format.
09:49:53 <zzo38> And I can write a program in Enhanced CWEB I can write TeX codes and C codes in the same file.
09:50:21 <zzo38> I think DVI format is simple and superior than PDF or others.
09:50:44 <j-invariant> I haven't studied either but that sounds very likely
09:51:37 <zzo38> PDF format is full of stupid stuff.
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09:52:48 <zzo38> I have figured out how to make a lot of things with TeX. But some things I just didn
09:55:44 <zzo38> I suppose it is possible to do some things by running the job twice and make it parse the log file from the first run.
10:00:42 <zzo38> \begingroup\setbox0=\vbox{\noindent\vrule\par}\endgroup
10:00:50 <zzo38> Is that guaranteed to reset the error count?
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10:21:28 <zzo38> I think I might figure out one way in which we might figure out overfull boxes, because it adds a rule to end of each overfull line (hhox) in a paragraph.
10:22:28 <zzo38> Just before the rule (or at the end if there is no rule) is a \rightskip glue.
10:36:58 <zzo38> It worked: http://sprunge.us/BXSK
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11:47:19 <zzo38> "All indestructible permanents are removed from the game."
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12:56:52 <oerjan> <coppro> how is chess' solvability surprising?
12:58:11 <oerjan> that's not the thing that has been proved
12:58:31 <oerjan> the exact statement is subtle
13:00:01 <oerjan> _if_ the aliens have infinite computational power (possibly more is needed than just to solve chess), _then_ they can convince a human being that they can solve chess perfectly, _in much less time than it would take for a human to understand how to do it_
13:02:58 <oerjan> or to rephrase, even if solving chess takes exponential time, they can convince a human of their ability to do it, in polynomial time
13:03:52 <oerjan> (it has not actually been proved that solving chess _does_ take exponential time, P ?= PSPACE is still a major unsolved problem)
13:37:03 <oerjan> hm this iwc is confusing, there are two parallel visits to the same room of hitler's headquarters, both iirc in 1940, but they are _not_ bumping into each other?
13:37:22 <oerjan> of course today's one's _are_ time travellers, but still...
13:42:02 <j-invariant> I think it uses the same variable name for different variables in its output
13:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (Actually, I think Agda is a fairly nice experiment in dependent types which is under the regrettable delusion that it is a proof assistant.)
13:43:56 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: do you know parametricity?
13:46:10 <j-invariant> have you ever noticed there are some things which are quite obvious just from the type of a function (but they can't be proved without looking at the definition) e.g. f :: [a] -> [a] can't "inspect" the elements 'a' because there are no typeclass constaints.. so map g . f = f . map g?
13:46:42 <j-invariant> or another example swap :: (a,b) -> (b,a) -- you know exactly what it does but you can't prove it unless you use the definition
13:51:17 <j-invariant> well then the idea of parametricity is to get these theorems (the ones that come just by inspecting the type)
13:51:59 <j-invariant> The language here implements it http://hackage.haskell.org/package/uAgda-1.0.0.1
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13:53:19 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: anyway I think one could make very good use of this parametricity
13:54:44 <elliott> 20:04:03 <Sgeo> It's possible to build normally in The Nether, right?
13:54:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Uh, not really. The terrain is not very conducive.
13:54:55 <elliott> 20:58:53 <Sgeo> Obsidian looks.... annoying to obtain
13:54:55 <elliott> 20:59:00 <Sgeo> Mark my words, I will run an Obsidian farm
13:55:01 <elliott> It's not; you just need lava and water; and impossible.
13:55:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, with hmod's /sethome, /home and /spawn and loads of buckets you can construct very quickly.
13:56:41 * Phantom_Hoover wishes Epigram 2 was further along in its development.
13:56:50 <Sgeo> elliott, to mine obsidian, you need a diamond pick-axe, which requires diamond, which requires an iron pick-axe, etc.
13:57:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Mining obsidian is a folly.
13:57:06 <elliott> Sgeo: You create it in-place.
13:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> My plot to have Edwin Brady kidnapped in order that I might then kidnap Conor McBride is regrettably dead in the water.
13:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Operative says that I might as well write Epigram myself and says that effort of kidnapping Brady is greater than required to do so.
13:59:22 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: you and elliott should learn mu Agda
13:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Operative knows nothing of the nature of Epigram and as such cannot be swayed from this position.
13:59:39 <Sgeo> Note to self: Don't build a fireplace in a wooden house
13:59:43 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjSWPxJxNs
13:59:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Kidnap me a fucking Ph.D., then."
14:00:33 <j-invariant> elliott: did you read the scrollback, I just explained the key feature of muAgda
14:00:40 <elliott> j-invariant: totalling doing so now
14:00:51 <j-invariant> elliott: I think I've figured out how to do quotients with it...
14:01:43 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: just like when you create modular arithmetic out of the integers using the equivalence relation
14:02:00 <elliott> 01:04:14 <coppro> it's very useful
14:02:00 <elliott> 01:04:17 <coppro> for not burning my eyes
14:02:00 <elliott> lol @ people who think that white on black hurts eyes less
14:02:05 <elliott> lern2contrastandbrightness
14:02:45 <elliott> 01:46:16 <j-invariant> zzo38: how did you get interested in TeX?
14:02:45 <elliott> 01:48:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: I use TeX for many things it is a better typesetting system than most.
14:02:45 <elliott> 01:48:20 <j-invariant> thdat's why I use it too
14:02:49 <elliott> j-invariant: you probably use LaTeX
14:02:57 <elliott> zzo38 thinks LaTeX is a horrible bloatware scourge ;)
14:03:13 <elliott> everything is a horrible bloatware scourge
14:03:22 <j-invariant> I don't even know which bits are TeX and which are LaTeX
14:03:32 <elliott> j-invariant: LaTeX is ... most of it
14:03:37 <elliott> j-invariant: raw TeX has nothing "semantic"
14:03:41 <elliott> it's all just raw formatting commands
14:03:42 <Sgeo> elliott, how is the Nether not conducive to building?
14:03:45 <elliott> and most of them don't take arguments
14:04:00 <elliott> Sgeo: because the terrain sucks
14:04:23 <Sgeo> So just flatten it or something first
14:04:39 * Sgeo just wants to build a cannon for high-speed transport in the Nether >.>
14:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, there are exactly 3 building materials available.
14:04:49 <elliott> 05:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (Actually, I think Agda is a fairly nice experiment in dependent types which is under the regrettable delusion that it is a proof assistant.)
14:04:52 <elliott> you stole that opinion from me
14:04:54 <j-invariant> surprised me! you just have to cabal install some deps
14:05:03 <elliott> j-invariant: lemme logread first
14:05:17 <elliott> Sgeo: um cannons can't make you travel fast ... and flattening the nether would involve MAJOR mining
14:05:26 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMJo_UNrtyo&NR=1
14:05:32 <Sgeo> Although the guy does die at the end
14:06:02 <Phantom_Hoover> A large area of flat terrain upon which you can build.
14:06:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Notice how he goes straight up.
14:06:11 <Sgeo> Thought that you can't die on your server
14:06:19 <elliott> Sgeo: If you have no health, then just swim across the lava...
14:07:26 <elliott> j-invariant: i will install uagda
14:07:40 <Sgeo> You need to mine out Obsidian to make portals...
14:07:44 <elliott> j-invariant: in return i expect you to figure out how to boot ubuntu on this >:D
14:07:50 <elliott> Sgeo: you just need buckets of lava and water.
14:08:10 <elliott> "Why Lisp is a Big Hack (And Haskell is Doomed to Succeed)" This post is going to be shit.
14:08:36 <elliott> j-invariant: stupid quote of the day: "(When I say Haskell, I'm not only speaking about Haskell per se, but also about all the FP languages in its halo, like Ωmega, Agda, Epigram, ...)"
14:08:58 <elliott> j-invariant: it's written by a lisper nothing they say makes any sense
14:09:20 <Sgeo> If you want to speak about FP languages, say "Functional languages"
14:10:29 <elliott> Linking dist/build/cmdargs/cmdargs ...
14:10:30 <elliott> ld: warning: in /opt/lib/libiconv.dylib, file was built for unsupported file format which is not the architecture being linked (i386)
14:10:37 <elliott> j-invariant: get ubuntu working and i'll be able to install uAgda
14:11:01 <j-invariant> elliott: The only way I ever got ubuntu to boot was off a CD - and it had to be a specific older version
14:11:37 <elliott> well i have booted ubuntu off a usb stick but it was on an older machine
14:11:47 <elliott> so bleh... i'll get it working later
14:11:53 <elliott> guess what i get to do now THAT'S RIGHT rebuild things!
14:12:08 <j-invariant> "I want to be able to test a incomplete program, even if it hasn't been type checked fully" *_*
14:14:24 <elliott> j-invariant: i honestly think all the lispers are desperately clinging at ways to say they're more expressive and interaction and rapid development than all these blasted new bondage and discipline languages ... kinda sad really :p
14:14:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Notch codes so badly that a 10FPS speed boost is trivial: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=123503
14:17:19 <j-invariant> frankly, stuff like Haskell isn't strong enough for me
14:17:51 <j-invariant> I don't know how /anyone/ sucessfully programs in that language
14:19:19 <j-invariant> even with extensions like SHE I can't do what I want
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14:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming you aren't writing run-of-the-mill programs.
14:24:34 <j-invariant> with a sufficiently good dependently typed langauge we shouldn't have to re-implement the same nonsense a million times
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14:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I would still like recommendations on new computery things.
14:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover> NB: I still have no idea whether or not I would like a laptop or desktop.
14:39:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you actually ever use it elsewhere.
14:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, I move rooms occasionally, and I am forced to go to Ireland most holidays...
14:40:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is your current laptop insufficient for those purposes?
14:40:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Buy a desktop then,
14:41:06 <elliott> There's electricity in Ireland. I think.
14:41:51 <Vorpal> elliott, are you sure?
14:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, IIRC there wasn't broadband in the specific village I stay in until fairly recently.
14:42:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this crash bug you mentioned, have you reported it?
14:43:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt fizzie would like that.
14:43:11 <Phantom_Hoover> And the house within the village remains landlineless.
14:43:18 <elliott> Vorpal: It's teleportation.
14:43:42 <elliott> Besides, his fix would probably be... very ... interesting.
14:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, he is clearly unable to fix it competently.
14:43:51 <elliott> Also it's useful just so long as nobody else finds out ever. For our personal use.
14:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> For another, can you imagine what would happen if a serious griefer got their hands on it?
14:44:23 <elliott> Yes. The reddit creative server would go down every five minutes.
14:44:28 <elliott> And then what would we do Phantom_Hoover!
14:44:31 <elliott> But I am sure that will never happen.
14:44:42 <elliott> Thing That Would Be Much Nicer If Minecraft Did Antialiasing: the Tronic pack.
14:45:09 <Vorpal> can you file a CVE against any sort of software (no I'm not about to do that, just the thought of a CVE against minecraft sounds hilarious)
14:45:13 <elliott> It's nice, so long as you only look at things from the right angle.
14:45:32 <elliott> Vorpal: But in this case "full disclosure" means "full anarchy".
14:45:43 <elliott> Ordinarily I woul dapprove, but Notch is just so helpless.
14:46:01 <elliott> Csomething Vsomething Esomething.
14:46:11 <Vorpal> elliott, usually they tell the vendor a few days before the full disclosure iirc
14:46:22 <elliott> Vorpal: That's one of the infinity "Responsible Disclosure" policies.
14:46:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Full disclosure, the most common practice, is instant full disclosure.
14:46:44 <elliott> Vorpal: This is for the best because if history proves anything, it's that vendors really don't give a shit.
14:46:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The entire Mojang workforce would be dedicated to fixing it before we made it public.
14:47:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They'd probably throw legal threats at us or something.
14:47:27 <elliott> It's ILLEGAL to reveal that! You're a bad person!
14:47:30 <elliott> You're letting the terrorists win!
14:47:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you tried the Tronic texture pack, btw?
14:47:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's my single-colour texture pack, except actually nice.
14:47:55 <elliott> Vorpal: http://evilmousestudios.com/tronic/
14:48:06 <elliott> Vorpal: See screenshots at the bottom.
14:48:23 <Vorpal> quite nice, but I think I'll stick to painterly
14:48:48 <Vorpal> elliott, hm is tronic "high res"? Or is it just the smooth colours that make it look that way?
14:49:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I think those screenshots have been cubically downscaled though.
14:49:10 <elliott> It's more jaggedy in practice.
14:49:24 <elliott> Painterly is kinda nice but I get the feeling (and drama on /r/Minecraft) agrees that the creator doesn't really know what they're doing.
14:49:28 <Vorpal> mc: the only context where 32x32 would be called HD during 2011.
14:49:33 <elliott> The defaults are... really inconsistent, for one.
14:49:40 <elliott> Plus, a lot of them don't tile really well.
14:49:55 <elliott> Also, I think they're working on the individual tiles without thinking about how they fit into the world.
14:49:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Painterly is kinda nice but I get the feeling (and drama on /r/Minecraft) agrees that the creator doesn't really know what they're doing. <-- fitting. Nor does notch.
14:50:09 <elliott> Sure, X is really pretty, but when you have a gigantic world of X, Y and Z, it's just too noisy with detail.
14:50:27 <elliott> Somewhere in-between would be nicest.
14:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott, you have to customise painterly to get a good result
14:50:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but I can't stand the default cobble
14:50:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I have cobble that looks like little circular markings (not perfect circles) on stone.
14:50:55 <Vorpal> elliott, probably the same
14:51:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you have painterly's water enabled?
14:51:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's really nice but you need mcpatcher to do it. Or manually editing the jar.
14:51:35 <Vorpal> elliott, last I looked it said it required some "non-standard" mod and it seemed like more work.
14:51:48 <elliott> Vorpal: "non-standard"? It's easy, you just run the jar, pick the pack, and check a few boxes.
14:52:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=123503 ... tried it?
14:52:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope. It's incompatible with Better Light.
14:52:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Also it makes no difference on multiplayer.
14:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, because single player is pretty much unplayable in beta for me.
14:52:54 <elliott> Results seem good from all responders.
14:53:02 <elliott> Vorpal: And the technical details look sound (and prove how stupid Notch is).
14:53:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder what META-INF is and why it should be deleted. Hm.
14:53:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Some cache I think.
14:53:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it stores, like, a directory? Don't ask me.
14:54:12 <elliott> fizzie: Can I make the map in mcmap turnable-off by an option? Amusing, I know, but I play fullscreen and so can't really use the map, but //goto is super-useful.
14:54:13 <fizzie> META-INF contains the .jar metadata.
14:54:18 <fizzie> The manifest thing thing.
14:54:24 <elliott> Failing that I'll just fork or something. Or rewrite it in ML. :p
14:54:28 <Vorpal> elliott, can't it be minimised?
14:54:33 <Sgeo> ". In vanilla Minecraft, the entire list is sorted by distance from the player every frame"
14:54:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Still takes up CPU.
14:54:37 <fizzie> Though the name "mcmap" makes it a bit silley.
14:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, not very much you claimed!
14:54:41 <elliott> If I disable the map don't need to keep track of chunks do I?
14:54:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, I use Better Light, Far, and Fancy.
14:55:04 <elliott> Vorpal: *Any* CPU is lots of CPU for me.
14:55:04 <Sgeo> Why doesn't the patch help in multiplayer?
14:55:22 <elliott> Sgeo: Because chunks update when the server decide.
14:55:33 <elliott> Maybe I'll make my own texture pack that's like Painterly but less ornate.
14:56:17 <elliott> fizzie: Does //goto need to know what chunks are around? Only for "omg no sky", right?
14:56:25 <fizzie> Only for that check, right.
14:56:48 <fizzie> It currently barfs if you try to invoke it from a chunk it hasn't seen.
14:57:01 <elliott> fizzie: Welp, us no-mapsters don't need no safety.
14:57:19 <fizzie> A more healthier sort of //goto would need the map for route-planning.
14:57:31 <fizzie> (The sort of an auto-walk style //goto.)
14:57:33 <elliott> Do not goto while pregnant.
14:57:53 <elliott> fizzie: I'll also commit my make-it-work-on-OS-X fixes and *oh* joy I just realised I have to rebuild glib.
14:59:54 <elliott> Incy-dentally, keeping track of these compiles is quite a pain: http://sprunge.us/eXUZ
15:00:08 <elliott> I think I might just abandon this manual stow system. In fact, yes, I will. Goodbye, /opt.
15:00:17 <elliott> Someone give me Ubuntu. Or a stiff drink.
15:00:37 <Vorpal> elliott, so stow wasn't good then?
15:00:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Stow itself performed perfectly; compiling everything by hand was not fun.
15:00:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Especially as glib is 32-bit only or something for god knows what reason or I don't know and ugh.
15:01:19 <elliott> I don't care what Homebrew recommends I'm installing it into /opt, like a decent person.
15:01:20 <Vorpal> elliott, blame OS X for crazy 64-bit situation
15:01:35 <elliott> Vorpal: "Crazy"? It's about as sane as a pure 64-bit migration can be (i.e. not very).
15:01:49 <Sgeo> elliott, you're a compiler now?
15:01:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well why did they go 32-bit on intel at all?
15:02:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Because Core 2 wasn't out yet ...
15:02:25 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact the first test Mac Pros given to developers were Pentium 4-based.
15:02:30 <elliott> Vorpal: The first released Intel Macs were based on Core.
15:03:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Quick lesson: Core is based on the Pentium M architecture. Core 2 is based on the Core architecture. No not Core 2, Core.
15:03:20 <Vorpal> elliott, yet linux managed to go 64-bit without all this mess. Sure there was still some problems but mostly from programmers messing up int, long and void* during a lot of years.
15:03:29 <elliott> Core is not based on Core, Core 2 is based on Core, and Core 2 has no relation to Core, but it is built in Core.
15:03:58 <Vorpal> elliott, are there two different things called "Core"?
15:04:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Core[CPU] is not based on Core[arch], Core 2[CPU] is based on Core[arch], and Core 2[CPU] has no relation to Core[CPU], but it is built on Core[arch].
15:04:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Linux transitioned to 64-bit by way of "take something like 7 years to do it".
15:04:28 <elliott> Not really a viable business strategy.
15:04:29 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, incidentally, shouldn't //goto fail if you try to enter the Cube?
15:04:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It does. Usually.
15:04:47 <elliott> fizzie: Why does world have a capital .C on the end.
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15:05:33 <Vorpal> elliott, actually... I ran 64-bit back when you still ran into the "stored pointer into an int" kind of issue daily. And really that was the only major portability issue. I could just patch it and store it in a portage overlay and file a bug (yes I ran gentoo back then)
15:06:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Guess what isn't an option for OS X users?
15:06:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Patching it and storing it in a portage overlay.
15:07:23 <fizzie> There shouldn't be any capital .Cs.
15:07:35 <Vorpal> elliott, but anyway, if you can recompile the software then migration is pretty swift. The vast majority of the software that isn't JITing or similar will probably work. (possibly after changing an int to a long somewhere or such)
15:07:41 <elliott> fizzie: Possibly OS X's fault.
15:07:50 <fizzie> There are none in the github web-view.
15:08:01 <elliott> fizzie: Well, HFS is case-insensitive, so lulz happen
15:08:20 <Vorpal> elliott, not capital C for me
15:08:26 <Vorpal> elliott, it's on your side yeah
15:08:50 <elliott> /usr/local/Cellar/git/1.7.3.4: 965 files, 18M, built in 51 seconds
15:08:52 <elliott> Gotta wonder why it tells me that.
15:08:57 <Vorpal> cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-fnested-functions"
15:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's an island of 3 pre-Halloween chunks surrounded on all sides by post-Halloween terrain for at least 5 chunks on all sides.
15:09:00 <elliott> "Oh man, 51 seconds! I'd better optimise my C compiler!"
15:09:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what is this about?
15:09:08 <elliott> Vorpal: God DAMMIT, Apple.
15:09:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Apparently when they decided to turn off nested functions by default (why?) they added an option to turn it back on that nobody else has!
15:09:36 <elliott> GUESS THE MAKEFILE'S GOTTA USE UNAME
15:09:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well it doesn't exist on any gcc version I have (4.3, 4.4 and 4.5)
15:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Appropriately profanity-laden commit pushing now.
15:11:25 <Vorpal> elliott, why not just a "checking if compiler has -fnested-functions" thing? ;)
15:12:04 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a bug in Apple's compiler, it doesn't need to be worked-around cleanly :P
15:12:18 <elliott> Vorpal: That's basically what's wrong with autoconf: it checks for features; it should check for bugs.
15:12:44 <elliott> Vorpal: And checking for bugs (which it calls features) never works because everyone's bugs are subtly different so it ends up basically checking what compiler you have in a really roundabout, slow way.
15:12:59 <elliott> Because, dammit, people play Minecraft on SunOS and they want to use mcmap.
15:13:50 * elliott decides he's getting too sane, takes a look at useful.make.
15:14:06 <elliott> $(objdir)/$(1): $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.o) Makefile | $(objdir) ; \
15:14:06 <elliott> $(call do-template,LINK,$(objdir)/$(1),$(cc.link) -o $(objdir)/$(1) \
15:14:07 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I now want to try this with some compiler that will error on -std=gnu99
15:14:07 <elliott> $(if $(cleaning),,-include $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.d))
15:14:13 <elliott> I don't remember writing that.
15:14:15 <Vorpal> I wonder what icc will do
15:14:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what does it mean?
15:15:25 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/types/comments/ev708/the_dialectica_interpertation_in_coq/c1b9pfa
15:15:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it means Zalgo.
15:15:37 <elliott> Vorpal: But, um, that's the rule for linking a C program.
15:16:03 <elliott> Vorpal: $(1) is the final program name, $(2) are the C files, space-separated.
15:16:21 <elliott> It's relatively easy to figure out if you know that but, yeck.
15:16:29 <elliott> j-invariant: sounds like cock
15:16:32 <Vorpal> elliott, downside of useful.make: simple to use but you are left completely clueless should you ever do something that makes it break ;)
15:16:33 <elliott> j-invariant: which is a colloquial term for penis
15:16:47 <elliott> Vorpal: ABSOLUTELY. And I wrote it!
15:17:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well you could probably manage it. But anyone else?
15:17:18 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I had to debug useful.make when I first put it into practice and it was impossible.
15:17:40 <elliott> j-invariant: wow that Coq code is really elegant
15:17:47 <elliott> i'm going to kill him and steal his powers
15:17:55 <elliott> *kill him, steal his heart, and absorb his powers
15:17:55 <j-invariant> elliott: makes me happy that the comment is -1
15:18:08 <Vorpal> elliott, at least a simple self-contained makefile tends to be easy to understand.
15:18:14 <elliott> well it's /r/types, more highbrow than the other reddits :P
15:18:25 <Vorpal> simple = fits on a screen, or at most two
15:18:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really. Nobody truly understands what Make does.
15:18:34 <elliott> Vorpal: They think Make works logically, and interpret the Makefile accordingly.
15:18:45 <elliott> But in fact it is only for now that their view coincides.
15:18:50 <elliott> Soon Make will ravage them with its incomprehensibility.
15:19:40 <Vorpal> elliott, "# This code is licensed under the WTFPL, version 2" <-- how could they possible need a second version?
15:20:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I forget what version 1 was.
15:20:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it was literally just the sentence "You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO."
15:20:21 <elliott> Vorpal: And then Sam Hocevar made the expanded version.
15:20:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Only v2 is FSF-certified :P (On a mailing list!)
15:20:49 <elliott> [[An interesting side-anecdote. I was talking to Bradley Kuhn
15:20:49 <elliott> last year sometime, and he says the FSF's folks had to laugh and agree
15:20:49 <elliott> that "DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT" is a valid Free Software license (I
15:20:50 <elliott> think they had received a submission with that string attached). I
15:20:52 <elliott> suggested that perhaps a useful short license with indemnification of
15:20:54 <elliott> warranty could be "Do what you want, but it's not my fault!"]]
15:21:24 <j-invariant> why are klingons and vulcans and humans so similar?
15:21:52 <elliott> j-invariant: because the human form is pure perfection^Uactors are cheap
15:22:07 <Vorpal> j-invariant, because it's cheaper that way yeah
15:22:49 <Vorpal> j-invariant, budget most probably
15:23:02 <elliott> [[On rape, the left still doesn't get it
15:23:02 <elliott> I admire Julian Assange for his work on WikiLeaks, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that he has committed sex crimes]] --Guardian article
Wow, yes, it's pure coincidence that the allegations appeared RIGHT AFTER Assange became a public figure! The fact that one of the women involved published an insane "guide to revenge" including mentioning accusing someone of rape if they cheated on you (IIRC) — who cares! Silly leftist
15:23:26 <elliott> I wonder why the Guardian likes to hire someone stupid to write an article every now and then.
15:23:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover linked to that anti-mathematics-education one a while back.
15:26:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, erm, that wasn't someone stupid they'd hired as a one-off.
15:26:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I know that.
15:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> That was Simon Jenkins, one of their most prominent columnists.
15:26:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't mean they actively hired.
15:26:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHY AM I TERRIBLE AT SENTENCES
15:27:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I was using it non-literally in a case where it makes perfect sense to use "hire someone stupid to" literally.
15:30:25 -!- j-invariant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:31:31 <elliott> fizzie: Is opt exposed to the other files?
15:34:20 <fizzie> elliott: Not yet, but you can make it to be.
15:34:43 <elliott> fizzie: I might just if I can forget my revelation of the past few seconds that everything in the code is tied to the map :P
15:35:05 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that nautral for something called mcmap?
15:35:07 <fizzie> Well, it *is* called "mc*map*", it might be a bit map-oriented.
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15:35:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Well I don't WANT to have to fork it and call it sml-mc-instant-server-crasher!
15:36:00 <elliott> Otherwise Phantom_Hoover_ would be unstoppable.
15:38:05 <Vorpal> why is packet_format in .data and not .rodata btw?
15:38:24 <Vorpal> means it can't be shared between multiple instances (har har)
15:38:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:39:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why is it that almost every non-trivial C project ends up with a header named something like common.h, global.h, shared.h or such...
15:39:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Because files suck.
15:41:06 <Vorpal> elliott, also hfs being case insensitive sounds like it would really make a mess of the unix semantics. Besides wouldn't it be locale dependent?
15:41:17 <elliott> I did not know that SoyLatte was X11-based.
15:41:28 <Vorpal> elliott, how does HFS handle the German ß (isn't it ss in lower case or something?)?
15:41:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Unix semantics aren't case-sensitive AFAIK. And I think it uses the same algorithm always.
15:41:50 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:mcmap ehird$ touch ß; mv ß ss
15:41:50 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:mcmap ehird$
15:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what about ö vs Ö ?
15:43:47 <Vorpal> elliott, and once you leave the latin scripts, things get really messy
15:45:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, well, it is based on HFS, as in 1984 HFS.
15:45:41 <elliott> Vorpal: They were going to change to ZFS but then ... didn't.
15:45:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well right. But at least back during pre-OS X era they didn't try to shoehorn it into unix
15:46:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Better than Mac OS Classic :P
15:46:30 <Vorpal> elliott, certainly, but at the file system isn't really fit for something unixy
15:46:37 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't : still forbidden in filenames?
15:46:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, you can put : in a filename just fine. It'll show up as / in Finder though.
15:47:15 <elliott> Vorpal: This is actually pretty useful to name things with /s in them X-D
15:47:26 <elliott> Finder translates back automatically, so you can name files foo/bar.
15:47:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder what is actually stored in the fs
15:48:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I imagine it's translated to : and back at the POSIX layer.
15:48:18 <elliott> Which I imagine is separate from the underlying FS implementation.
15:48:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Things like iTunes at least as of a year or two ago would actually show the paths to audio files using the : notation if you can believe that.
15:48:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well I imagine it is stored as a / on disk though, to not break compatibility with old HFS and MacOS
15:48:46 <elliott> Mac OS Classic heritage, woo
15:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact the issue seems to be that if you changed it now you would break compat compared to previous OS X versions
15:49:38 <Vorpal> in fact, impossible to change without breaking compat at the point of change.
15:49:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Mandatory conversion step :P
15:50:02 <Vorpal> I can imagine they want to avoid it.
15:51:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I think the best option would be to make a new char for path separator. That way there is no conflict
15:51:40 <Vorpal> like, a new unicode codepoint
15:51:50 <Vorpal> for efficiency it should probably be stored as a NUL though
15:52:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Or how about we store everything as objects!!1111
15:52:23 <elliott> Vorpal: The problem with improving filesystems is that if you go too far the filesystem disappears :P
15:52:50 <Vorpal> elliott, while I'm all for what you suggest fitting that into a "traditional" OS sounds.... painful
15:53:33 <elliott> If you complain it doesn't exist yet, it's useless until you own a large SSD anyway :P
15:53:47 <Vorpal> elliott, sure. But apple is not going to switch OS X to use that overnight. Especially since not a single line of code of it exists anywhere
15:54:03 <Vorpal> elliott, why not what?
15:55:24 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal: -m now takes the map out of mcmap, leaving mc.
15:55:31 <Vorpal> elliott, Even if it is (I don't want a discussion about that atm, it's all too subjective anyway), since when has large companies ever been sane and perfectly rational at compsci.
15:55:43 <elliott> It should do something like "use much less memory and CPU".
15:55:45 <Vorpal> case in point: ipv6 migration. Companies are not perfectly rational.
15:56:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Clearly Apple should become an anarchist commune?
15:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, so -m means that it just sits there and listens for //goto and //coords?
15:56:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And lets you chat/read chats from the console.
15:56:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no good answer to that statement.
15:56:58 <elliott> Vorpal: What you're saying is YEP INDEED
15:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but it still links to SDL. You should make it a compile time option, no?
15:57:14 <elliott> Does it matter if it links to SDL?
15:57:26 <Vorpal> elliott, no it definitely isn't!. What I'm saying is closer to "undefined"
15:57:45 <elliott> mcmap actually does "while (1);" right now.
15:57:50 <elliott> So by "less CPU usage" I mean "full CPU usage".
15:58:04 * Sgeo watches videos on moulding obsidian
15:58:17 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as you don't break the traditional map stuff
15:58:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo, in real life? or mc?
15:58:46 <Vorpal> hm yeah I doubt you would mould it in real life
15:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Incidentally, would it be better to place lava into water rather than douse some lava in a mould?
15:59:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, that way you just need a flooded chamber open at the top.
16:00:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I think it sounds harder to do it that way. Specifically it sounds tricky to get it in the right place
16:00:18 <elliott> Interestingly mcmap still shows as not responding ...but it only uses 0.1 CPU. And 7 megabytes of real memory.
16:00:31 <Vorpal> elliott, does it work in map mode?
16:00:45 <elliott> I didn't actually test it but there's no reason it shouldn't.
16:01:22 <elliott> Pushed a non-98%-CPU-usage patch.
16:01:29 <elliott> Only relevant if you use nomap really.
16:01:33 <Vorpal> elliott, better check to make sure
16:01:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, it's mcmap tradition to not test commits in any way whatsoever.
16:01:47 <Vorpal> (not when compiling a C++ program with -j2)
16:02:02 <Vorpal> (specifically debug build of llvm)
16:02:07 <elliott> Technically I broke the rules even by checking that no map popped up.
16:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, FWIW, I think using that method placing obsidian is as simple as placing any other block underwater.
16:02:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, trickier to deal with if you make a mistake though. Not as simple as simply bucketing it up again.
16:03:23 <elliott> obsidian misplaces are fatal anyway
16:03:37 <Vorpal> elliott, hardly. But they are annoying
16:04:09 <Vorpal> elliott, mining obsidian is after all very slow
16:05:00 * Sgeo imagines building huge minecraft tracks in the Nether
16:05:09 <Sgeo> When will the Nether be available in multiplayer?
16:05:19 <Sgeo> erm, minecart tracks
16:05:40 <Vorpal> hm what are the monster spawning rules in nether. Surely not the same light level as for the "real world"?
16:06:23 <elliott> The server has been so kwiet recently.
16:06:35 <elliott> Portals are apparently going to teleport to other servers by default.
16:06:48 <elliott> You could maybe do a mod for it, but it'd be very involved. OTOH Notch might add portals that go to the Nether in SMP anyway.
16:07:11 <Sgeo> elliott, linky?
16:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do two server. A normal one and a nether one. No?
16:07:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yes, but inventory would not transfer, would it?
16:07:27 <Sgeo> Your source for "<elliott> Portals are apparently going to teleport to other servers by default."
16:07:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well, who knows
16:07:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I think I read something about he planned to make it possible to configure servers to trust a list of other ones
16:08:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Better if he never even realised the potential. Start local server, gift yourself TNT ...
16:09:00 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't it even require configuring of which server was the teleport target anyway?
16:09:05 <Sgeo> How difficult is it to obtain sulfur?
16:09:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. But it'd be quite easy.
16:09:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Kill creepers or find it in a dungeon.
16:09:25 <elliott> On our server, ask HHI; get laughed at.
16:09:47 <elliott> You could also ask Vorpal but he'd probably ask you what you've done and follow you around for days rather than just laughing at you.
16:10:15 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't ghasts drop sulphur too?
16:10:26 <elliott> Uh, maybe. Killing creepers is easier and less traumatising.
16:10:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: "Turns out the team that made Father Ted were Irish! Ireland is now officially better than England." ~~~~~~~~Notch
16:10:45 <elliott> (Note: The more ~s I use, the more sarcastic I am being.)
16:10:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Hoover Heavy Industries.
16:11:53 <Sgeo> Do creepers and ghasts even exist on the server?
16:12:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo, HHI is Phantom_Hoover_'s and elliott's fictional joke company. Specialising in uncompleted projects based on observational data.
16:12:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> The HHI reserves were made in about 20 minutes by elliott using a duplication glitch.
16:12:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: CLASSIFIED.
16:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, actually, HHI was originally founded in order that ROU abandonment would be easier.
16:13:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Also t'was more like 15 minutes.
16:13:25 <Sgeo> Do dungeons exist?
16:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I haven't added to it ever since I realised there wasn't a hope in hell of MoveCraft working with something that huge.
16:13:48 <Sgeo> I assume that's where elliott got the initial sulphur?
16:14:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think he named it officially before beta added the labels
16:14:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I REFUSE TO LISTEN TO AN IDIOT WHO DOESN'T KNOW CHEMISTRY
16:14:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It's TNTnamite.
16:16:12 <Vorpal> maybe it is a different TNT
16:16:31 <Vorpal> that stands for Tsulphur aNd sandT or something
16:16:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah. I blame notch
16:17:10 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmw7JfsNzoY
16:17:17 <elliott> An educational program about Tsulphur.
16:17:24 <Vorpal> third world war? blame notch. End of world? blame notch
16:18:26 <Vorpal> lost car keys? guess who to blame! That's right, Notch.
16:19:04 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, no, but planning to
16:19:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: No. He's obsessing about it first.
16:20:07 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.ehow.com/how_4777739_debit-card.html
16:20:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Note lack of step 1, "ask father"
16:24:23 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/10/20/mind-blown-minecraft-to-link-servers-with-portals/
16:26:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> No, that will either a) never happen or b) it will happen and mining will break.
16:26:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: What will never happen.
16:27:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I think it relies on a list of trusted servers.
16:27:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, hm?
16:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, we have a portal sitting near spawn. It doesn't work.
16:28:06 <elliott> It does make noises though.
16:28:49 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, we have a portal sitting near spawn. It doesn't work. <-- I suspect he thought linking servers would be easier than making the server handle two worlds
16:29:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I hate how the Nether transition isn't seamless.
16:29:17 <Vorpal> elliott, because it unloads and loads yes
16:29:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Couldn't he load a few Nether chunks etc. when you come in the vicinity of a Nether portal, in the background?
16:29:34 <Vorpal> elliott, probably due to global state messing up
16:29:46 <Vorpal> (probably same reason for servers)
16:30:36 <elliott> SOMEONE GET ON MINECRAFT ORELSE
16:31:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: classic maps could be 2048x2048x2048 if you had infinity ram.
16:32:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: See e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19PZA1tnKtg
16:32:28 <Sgeo> There's a ceiling in MC?
16:33:01 <Sgeo> How far above that can a player go?
16:33:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, however far he can jump above it I guess?
16:34:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, hm, surely it doesn't use bignum though?
16:34:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, meaning something will hit a limit
16:39:13 <Sgeo> Obsidian is TNT resistent?
16:40:39 <Vorpal> yes, it takes a huge amount of TNT *at once* to break obsidian iirc. And that amount would probably crash minecraft anyway.
16:40:40 <elliott> fizzie: How many packets would I need to handle to get //coords working with nomap?
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16:47:34 <Vorpal> elliott, is that fastrender thing open or closed?
16:47:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Closed like everything, but you can decompile it.
16:50:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: downwownwonw
16:51:04 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160
16:51:38 <elliott> Vorpal: compatible with FastRender too
16:52:07 <coppro> elliott: when it's dark, white on black hurts less than black on white, because there is less contrast with surroundings
16:52:10 <Vorpal> elliott, looks interesting. My saves backup is >100 MB in disk size. Less than 50 MB in actual file length.
16:52:22 <elliott> coppro: that's why your monitor has a contrast setting
16:52:23 <Vorpal> (not going to check exact values with du atm, it takes too long)
16:53:01 <coppro> elliott: I'd love if you could show me where it is
16:53:10 <elliott> coppro: probably somewhere in your settings.
16:53:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: you on the server?
16:53:32 <coppro> elliott: that's software
16:53:37 <elliott> coppro: that controls hardware
16:54:17 <Vorpal> coppro, is it a laptop? If not the monitor probably has a "menu" button or such
16:54:38 <Vorpal> coppro, then I would check in monitor settings
16:54:40 <coppro> elliott: you said my monitor has a setting; you are wrong
16:54:59 <elliott> coppro: it is just not exposed via buttons
16:55:14 <coppro> that's too much work then
16:55:41 <elliott> the fact is your display has a setting
16:58:17 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how the brightness buttons on my thinkpad are handled in linux
16:58:38 <Vorpal> they are by fn and clearly goes to the OS
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17:00:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: First generation?
17:01:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You mean you've been there before?
17:01:40 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160#p1742827
17:01:42 <elliott> "Erm.. whos Amdahl lol xD?"
17:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't find contrast control on my thinkpad btw
17:04:33 <Vorpal> I wonder where ubuntu hides it
17:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, googling yields no useful results either
17:07:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: TREEHOUSE
17:08:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: We could life of the fatta tha land!
17:08:53 <Vorpal> elliott, tree house eh? sounds fun
17:09:07 <elliott> Vorpal: We found a nice tree.
17:09:43 <elliott> ""The Basic Texture pack is developed for people who own slow computers or suffer from lag, giving you and your computer a better time, while retaining the minecraft feel."
17:09:54 <elliott> This idiot thinks that making textures have more solid colours makes the rendering go faste.r
17:10:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, quite
17:10:52 <Vorpal> elliott, the beta tree rules are "within 4 blocks of a log, and connected to the log by leaves (or directly)" iirc
17:10:56 <elliott> http://www.adkins-online.com.au/minecraftbasic/; site requires Flash so I can't see it.
17:11:05 <Vorpal> which differs from the old leaf rules in alpha-with-decay
17:11:41 <elliott> This pack seems nice, FWIW: http://www.largames.com/games/games-in-general/160-largamesminecraft.html
17:13:17 <ineiros> elliott: No Skyping this week. I'm still at work at the moment.
17:13:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, Christ, the Basic texture pack spells "normal" as "normle".
17:13:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Notch quality.
17:14:15 <coppro> my god microsoft is retarded
17:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> It also speaks of "test's" and that it runs "with out" computers running "slowley".
17:14:26 <coppro> "let's make phones upload up to 50 MB of data each day"
17:14:32 <coppro> what can possibly go wrong
17:15:14 <Vorpal> coppro, they did that? uploading what sort of stuff?
17:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, FWIW, people claim to have FPS rises when using it.
17:16:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: People claim homeopathy works.
17:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, yes, but this is actually objectively measurable.
17:17:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: But has it been objectively measured?
17:18:41 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, well, the FPS is hard to get wrong, although I doubt they understand rigour.
17:19:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Same scene, actions etc.
17:20:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: M... m... may... shut up.
17:20:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It's not even going to be single-colour!
17:21:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Not sure whether it'll be 16x or 32x; probably 16xl
17:24:30 <Sgeo> "Water cannot be found in The Nether and water from a bucket will evaporate as soon as it touches anything in there."
17:24:43 <Sgeo> Does that include, say, cobblestone made by a player there?
17:24:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Just a texture pack.
17:24:53 <Sgeo> If so, it's impossible to mould a portal in the Nether
17:25:08 <elliott> Sgeo: You mine your old portal. And actually you probably can wtaer your own blocks.
17:25:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I can name it when I see what it looks like
17:25:18 <Vorpal> elliott, show me some screenshots
17:25:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Haven't started yet :P
17:25:31 <Sgeo> elliott, can't mine your old portal without diamond pickaxe anyway
17:25:38 <Sgeo> Well, if you want the obsidian back
17:25:40 <elliott> Sgeo: So get a diamond pickaxe.
17:25:43 <Vorpal> elliott, can't name it then. A hd pack might need a different name than a 1x1 pack
17:25:56 <elliott> Vorpal: 16x. Like Painterly, just less cluttered and not stupidly ornate.
17:27:27 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Water#Infinite_Spring_Duplication is this deliberate?
17:27:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Who cares, it's damn useful.
17:27:58 <Sgeo> If it's not deliberate, it might be removed
17:29:39 <Vorpal> I believe it is deliberate
17:30:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, when it comes to notch such a thing means very little
17:30:23 <elliott> Looking at the Minecraft font... it's code page 437.
17:30:26 <elliott> Welcome to the 80s, Notch.
17:30:44 <elliott> Verry tempted to try and replace it with the actual code page 437 font now.
17:30:58 <elliott> Except I think the dimensions are different.
17:31:24 <Sgeo> Is even someone like Notch capable of writing code that causes new water sources to be made like that accidentally?
17:31:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Notch is capable of all bugs.
17:31:58 <Vorpal> the booster thing started as a bug I think
17:33:09 <elliott> You know what would be an awesome pack?
17:33:12 <elliott> The default one, but shuffled randomly.
17:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, the faster render thing helps a bit. 5-10 FPS or so. None of those huge speedups that some people reported in comments. And you still get a lot of "jerks" in the gameplay
17:33:47 <elliott> The internet is full of jerks, silly.
17:33:49 <Vorpal> which is the primary thing making it unplayable in single player atm
17:33:57 <Vorpal> elliott, .... different meaning of the word :P
17:34:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Try the region mod?
17:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah might later
17:37:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the thing is, I get those jerks even if I don't move. it is enough to pan the view between a chest and workbench in front of me. So chunk loading doesn't sound like it.
17:37:45 * Sgeo watches someone build a house
17:37:54 * Sgeo decides that he wants to build a swimming pool
17:39:11 <Vorpal> elliott, btw built a gate in single player. Gate as in "castle scale" gate with portcullis and so on.
17:40:22 <Sgeo> Vorpal, well, I'll make a larger one
17:40:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well no. Not without some mod that makes fence posts and redstone interact
17:41:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll take a screenshot shortly
17:41:26 <elliott> Sgeo: do you actually growl.
17:41:50 <Sgeo> About as much as I actually hit you just now
17:42:41 <Vorpal> elliott, mcmap map mode seems broken btw
17:42:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I just tried it
17:42:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably I said opt.nomap where I meant !opt.nomap
17:43:38 <Vorpal> elliott, the window pops up, then login hangs
17:44:31 <elliott> coppro: He growls, he must be.
17:44:43 <elliott> Also Phantom_Hoover_ has SOLID EVIDENCE of him being in a FURRY SUIT.
17:45:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: What a sick, sick fetish!
17:45:53 <augur> you know, i think of all of us, elliott is the only one who can be reliably said to be likely to growl
17:46:14 <augur> only its an incidental growl thats intended to be a grumble
17:46:16 <Vorpal> elliott, the gate btw: http://ompldr.org/vNnR5aA/2011-01-03_18.43.47.png
17:47:29 <Vorpal> maybe I should add another semi-hidden layer of fence on top
17:48:15 <elliott> I could really do with a zip mounter.
17:48:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, not a castle. Just a checkpoint in a pass between two high mountains
17:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> FWIW, I have actually made significant progress on my SSP world.
17:48:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, the location was perfect for it
17:48:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Set it to HARD.
17:49:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Makes things more explody and longer-living.
17:49:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, for castle I go obsidian instead.
17:49:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I have a completely secure shelter and mine; I never get mobs within 5 metres of me.
17:49:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Do you *ever* explore?
17:50:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: How utterly boring.
17:51:13 <elliott> OH MY GOD MAKING TEXTURE PACKS IS SO HARD
17:51:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, this is somewhat outdated: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.26.07.png
17:51:28 <coppro> THE COMPUTER IS MY FRIEND
17:51:29 <Vorpal> (the thing is significantly larger now)
17:52:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, also there is a nether portal just inside. Ends up right next to a huge lava lake. Which used to be even huger
17:52:43 <augur> elliott: i wrote a scheme preprocessor that will do a form of CPS on delimited continuations using zippers :T
17:52:44 <coppro> elliott: you are insufficiently happy, citizen
17:52:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, quite a chore still. Considering the dimensions of it
17:52:49 <coppro> being insufficiently happy is treason
17:53:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, see this too: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.21.47.png
17:53:07 <augur> elliott: dear god what? :P
17:53:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, also floor is obsidian a bit inwards (not the hole bottom floor yet, though that is the plan)
17:53:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I changed that since I took those screenshots
17:53:35 <augur> elliott: finish that thought please
17:53:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I was low on iron back then
17:53:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And dirt below it no less.
17:53:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, due to all the buckets
17:53:59 <elliott> "So here we have the soil ... and then we put some obsidian on top of it."
17:54:02 <elliott> "Lots of obsidian in fact."
17:54:12 <augur> elliott: oh wait, you hate scheme right? well, it'd work for CL too
17:54:29 <augur> oh i dont know, you confuse me
17:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, fizzie did build a bunker which can be blown wide open with a lucky hit from a creeper.
17:54:34 <Vorpal> elliott, quite. But since floor is obisidian it will at worst end up as a floating box (well, the middle of the floor is currently cobble in part)
17:54:35 <augur> its really just an sexp manipulate
17:54:37 <fizzie> elliott: For //coords you need to handle those PACKET_ENTITY_* it already handles, plus PACKET_PLAYER_MOVE and PACKET_PLAYER_MOVE_ROTATE.
17:55:02 <Vorpal> elliott, and I checked with TNT next to wall, it doesn't quite reach up to the stone sections :)
17:55:17 <Vorpal> elliott, besides I will have a moat OF LAVA around the fort.
17:55:42 <augur> anyway, elliott, it takes expressions like this: (+ 1 (reset x (* 2 (shift x (- 3 x)))))
17:55:45 <Vorpal> elliott, not really now
17:56:01 <elliott> augur: but you can do delim continuations with real continuations. you prolly know that
17:56:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect that much TNT would reach up to the stone section anyway
17:56:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, whyever not what?
17:56:40 <augur> elliott: oh yes, but the point was to do delimited continuations without any magic
17:56:44 <augur> and to do it with a preprocessor
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17:56:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, ... right and demolish everything around it
17:56:52 <augur> and to do it syntactically via zippers
17:56:54 <augur> it was an exercise
17:57:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, probably down to the minecart system level even (which is at around alt 28 or something such)
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17:58:22 <elliott> YOR NOT MENT TO KNOW ABOUT THAT
17:58:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, this is single player...
17:58:44 <fizzie> elliott: Your latest nomap change managed to remove the proxy-thread creation completely when !opt.nomap.
17:58:52 <augur> elliott: im teaching a sort of SICP++ to a friend
17:59:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I told him it was broken several minutes ago
17:59:03 <elliott> augur: has he actually read sicp
17:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, the point is that if Mt. Vorpal is attacked, the bunker will be floating in midair.
17:59:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I don't see the issue with that
17:59:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, apart from it being attacked is an issue
17:59:31 <augur> elliott: we're using it as source material. its mostly SICP, and then some stuff beyond sicp but bolted onto the SICP model
18:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, so when you decide to rebuild the world after ineiros' attack you will step outside and promptly fall to your death.
18:00:21 <augur> elliott: so like, we're going to implement a primitive pattern matching system on top of the interpreter, and use that as a springboard to discuss unification
18:00:37 <augur> elliott: we're also going to use it as a springboard to discuss ADTs
18:01:02 <augur> generic operators will give us a means of getting into type systems
18:01:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, anyway for my other single player world I devised a much better way to build a fort. Obsidian for a tiny ladder shaft up from ground. to the fort, which is "balanced" on this shaft. And which doesn't need to be in obsidian
18:01:08 <augur> i fucking love ADTs, can i just say
18:01:11 <Sgeo> Can mapping stuff be used with multiplayer stuff?
18:01:25 <augur> i love ruby but there are so many times when i wish it had ADTs
18:01:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, then I would have to build on top of bedrock :P
18:01:46 <augur> elliott: meh. i like it. but i wish it had GADTs and types
18:01:54 <elliott> augur: and didn't have mutability.
18:01:55 <Sgeo> SMP = Survival MultiPlayer?
18:02:02 <elliott> augur: and was functional.
18:02:03 <augur> elliott: i dont mind the mutability.
18:02:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, takes far to long to reach in an emergency
18:02:52 <augur> elliott: i mean, i use mutability sparingly anyway, but when i do its in a sort of .. whats the word for it
18:03:05 <augur> single-reference object?
18:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Note: I am putting this into Mt. Hoover so don't you dare steal it.
18:03:21 <augur> i mean i use mutability when the mutated object is private, so to speak
18:03:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, anyway speaking of that gate, I think it would be cool to build a castle on that scale.
18:03:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, though even that gate took several hours in game time (and it's solid, though cobble inside, not stone)
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18:04:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well duh I need torches yes. So?
18:04:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, or wait
18:04:14 <coppro> why are we in #minecrack
18:04:15 <Vorpal> not the future castle?
18:04:26 <augur> i mean, i probably use mutability elsewhere, but its usually in that form. i tend to use mostly functional style in ruby anyway
18:04:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, what on earth is/are that/those?
18:05:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I was thinking a vasaborg. Whatever those are called in English
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18:05:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: HHI needs an IRC server.
18:05:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/%C3%96rebro_castle_in_Sweden.jpg
18:05:58 <augur> elliott: did i tell you, chris barker was at UMD in november
18:06:15 <augur> elliott: hes pretty cool
18:06:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> OTOH, obsidian would be the logical replacement for basalt here...
18:06:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/EdinburghCastle.jpg
18:06:43 <augur> elliott: because of him, i now understand the reader monad
18:06:48 <augur> but only moderately!
18:07:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, if so... far too ornate.
18:07:01 <elliott> augur: it's the same as the (->) monad
18:07:11 <augur> elliott: it is, but now i understand that! :)
18:07:33 <augur> Phantom_Hoover_: not hard at all!
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18:07:54 <augur> Phantom_Hoover_: frame of mind
18:08:33 <augur> i generally come to understand things by analogizing them to their equivalents in linguistics
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18:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, well, it'd be something to do with a map editor, at least initially.
18:09:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well sure. I'm not going to use a map editor
18:09:19 <augur> Phantom_Hoover_: so its hard for me to sort of .. grok the typical haskellish discussion
18:09:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, mine will be stone I guess. When/if I make it.
18:09:43 <augur> i also need very ground up explanations; i still dont understand monad transformers properly, despite philippa's efforts
18:09:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: What is he doing.
18:10:07 <elliott> augur: Monad transformers are ... really simple.
18:10:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, will model it one one of these I guess: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Kalmar_slott.jpg or http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/%C3%96rebro_castle_in_Sweden.jpg
18:10:27 <augur> elliott: so im told, but they havent yet fit into place in my mental picture of things
18:10:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, no, I'm not. I'm considering doing that.
18:11:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, also you plan to make Edinburgh castle? Good luck, it looks rather complex.
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18:11:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well. It's my single player game. I'll let you do whatever you want in your :)
18:12:04 <augur> elliott: i have a very visual tendency when trying to understand code, and its very hard for me to visualize monad transformers
18:12:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, besides "A motte-and-bailey is a form of castle situated on a raised earthwork and surrounded by a protective fence" <-- the MC fence would look tiny and silly in this context
18:12:38 <elliott> augur: sry but when I hear "visual learner" i hear "idiot" :}
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18:13:30 <augur> elliott: i dont know if im a "visual learner", i just tend to visualize a computation
18:13:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: nothing, but "visual learner" almost always means "unable to think abstractly".
18:13:59 <augur> oh yes, symbols definitely
18:14:07 <augur> but i need to see how the symbols FLOW
18:14:26 <augur> i cant just look at a definition and understand it
18:14:37 <augur> i mean, i could grind through it
18:14:48 <augur> but i wouldnt intuitively get how to make it anew
18:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I was going to suggest printing and then using tap water
18:14:55 <augur> elliott: im working on it xP
18:14:58 <augur> its hard to get you know
18:15:04 <Vorpal> elliott, though, I doubt that works with laser printers
18:15:22 <elliott> augur: I suggest you do it alone! And next to the computer with all your files on.
18:15:28 <elliott> augur: You'll probably end up dying but it'll be hilarious for the rest of us.
18:15:38 <elliott> Or worse, wiping your disk.
18:15:46 <augur> elliott: "with all your files on" what?
18:15:53 <elliott> augur: So I could end with "wiping your disk".
18:16:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, the "garbage on map because of torch" is because when you put a torch at Y=127, it sends block-set messages for Y=128 to "change" that block to air.
18:16:27 <augur> you probably WOULDNT end up wiping the disk, actually
18:16:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm but why did it happen at y=125 then too?
18:17:09 <fizzie> It seems to send those pretty randomly whenever you are high altitudes.
18:17:17 <elliott> augur: Admittedly doing something stupid and dying sounds more likely.
18:17:26 <augur> elliott: not really
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:35 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:35 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:36 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:36 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:36 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:36 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0
18:17:37 <fizzie> Perhaps it's just best not to wonder.
18:17:53 <augur> elliott: people generally dont do stupid things and die when on LSD
18:18:04 <elliott> augur: No, but they do it more often than they rm -rf /
18:18:22 <augur> elliott: i'd need to see a study to believe that!
18:18:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, was that for placing /one/ torch?
18:18:47 <elliott> augur: "Remove... recursively... forced... root" vs "Ooh it's cheese. Oh the cheese is hollow. Ooh wind. This is ni"
18:18:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, one cobblestone. And it was just a snippet, there were about 6 more lines.
18:18:56 <elliott> (Depiction of LSD 100% ACCURATE)
18:19:08 <oerjan> <augur> .. beard <-- yeah, SURE...
18:19:23 <augur> oerjan: well hes more of an otter anyway, right, so.
18:19:28 <elliott> augur is like 3 years old he can't grow a beard
18:19:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, some waste data there heh
18:19:37 <elliott> oerjan: what line is that from
18:19:48 <augur> elliott: me talking about chris barker just five minutes ago
18:19:54 <augur> he has an awesome beard
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18:31:54 <augur> scrap your boilerplate looks really interesting
18:35:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: it's not my fault that IEEE numbers don't obey the rules of predicate logic with equality
18:35:47 <oerjan> elliott: that was the joke
18:35:57 <elliott> oerjan: objectivists don't joke
18:37:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: impossible
18:38:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> (The one objectivist I have met uses the terms "socialist", "communist", and "fascist" completely interchangeably.)
18:38:31 <augur> well that person was stupid
18:39:01 <augur> its like words dont have meanings anymore T_T
18:39:18 <elliott> augur: all objectivists are stupid
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18:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> HHI's research department should be moved to a midair fortress.
18:56:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: On top of Mount Vorpal.
18:57:17 <Vorpal> elliott, you are just trying to troll me by suggesting that. I know you won't do it.
18:58:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: When you went on leave to a luxurious Mount Vorpal holiday and demoted me, I climbed up the ranks slowly.
18:58:24 <elliott> Then when you rejoined, the reanks realigned; you're INFERIOR CEO, I'm CEO.
18:59:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I think doing it right on top of ineiros's tower is better
19:00:08 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover_> WHO IS THE CEO HERE <-- * oerjan gets a calvin an hobbes treehouse backflash
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19:00:36 <Vorpal> elliott, no and I don't have time to discuss further. bbl
19:00:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: "Discuss".
19:00:54 <elliott> That was some discussion I had with Vorpal there!
19:01:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Make some!
19:03:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: We could build it around his two gigantic waterfalls.
19:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, giving Vorpal easy access to this facility is not an option.
19:03:54 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:05:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: OK, I suggest we construct it entirely out of obsidian, from level 128 downwards, and then empty out the entire space below it, such that to enter, you have to jump down to bedrock, solve a redstone puzzle, go in a boat elevator, and then enter an iron door.
19:05:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Sure, you could build a gigantic path from ground to there, but you'd have to break through obsidian.
19:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, cobble tower to the necessary level, then use the normal entrance.
19:06:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Impossible.
19:06:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The entire path upwards is coated in obsidian.
19:07:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: i.e., thin obsidian tower up like 64 levels, and then the actual facility.
19:07:08 <elliott> The actual facility is completely covered.
19:07:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And if you're going to say "But you could get in by just breaking two obsidian!", well, that applies to EVERYTHING.
19:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> My ideal method of access would be to install MoveCraft and have an HHI airship.
19:08:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Yeeeeees.
19:08:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: So, let's get a shitload of lava and water.
19:09:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Any ... ideas for that?
19:10:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: See /msg.
19:23:09 <nooga> minecraft refuses to work on my ubuntu
19:25:47 <fizzie> FWIW, "java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp /path/to/Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame" seems to work fine on this Ubuntu 10.10 w/ the default openjdk-6-jre 6b20-1.9.2-0ubuntu2; but that's just me, I've heard people complain about OpenJDK before.
19:26:09 <fizzie> The memory limits could be bigger too.
19:26:56 <nooga> it just blackscreens
19:27:18 <fizzie> I hear sun-java6-jre works more reliababbely.
19:27:40 <elliott> nooga: doesn't work in browser
19:27:51 <nooga> http://timashley.me/node/596
19:28:56 <fizzie> Looks like manually swabbing lwjgl versions.
19:29:19 <nooga> that's what i'm trying to do after jars download
19:30:42 <elliott> nooga: use sun jvm. also, you pirated it, didn't you?
19:31:22 <nooga> i wouldn't pay for something i can;t try
19:31:29 <nooga> and it does not work properly
19:31:41 <elliott> nooga: um, yes, because all the pirated ones are ancient.
19:31:41 <nooga> if i like it i will buy it
19:31:45 <nooga> if not - i will remove it
19:31:51 <elliott> nooga: um, yes, because all the pirated ones are ancient.
19:31:54 <elliott> which is why it doesn't work
19:32:03 <elliott> anyway _nobody_ gives a shit because you whine about Minecraft sucking constantly.
19:32:28 <nooga> this looks like 1.1_02
19:37:00 <fizzie> 1.1_02 sounds like a beta version number to me.
19:41:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: see game.
19:41:11 <nooga> 1.1_02 fully working
19:57:36 <nooga> now suddenly it's dark and i can't find coal for a torch
19:57:53 <nooga> am i supposed to sit in my shelter til morning comes?
19:59:43 <nooga> how long is the night?
20:00:23 <elliott> nooga: as long as the day. well, almost.
20:00:38 <elliott> like 7 minutes + a bit vs. 10 minute day
20:08:26 <nooga> hollow in a hillside
20:08:40 <nooga> i closed the entrance with dirt
20:08:57 <elliott> nooga: You might want a door.
20:09:05 <elliott> Also, make sure it's not too big a hollow; monsters can spawn in small spaces.
20:09:18 <elliott> You probably want a torch.
20:12:31 <Vorpal> nooga, you might want to play on peaceful to learn the game mechanics. Just a suggestion.
20:12:51 <elliott> nooga: Don't; Vorpal is a wimp.
20:14:11 <Vorpal> nooga, hm. look on cliff sides for black dots, or underground as elliott suggested.
20:15:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, of the entire game. Hm quite true.
20:15:54 <nooga> i'm in a dark cavern with no light
20:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> You need either nice terrain or enough time to set up a mine
20:16:41 <nooga> how do i respawn/die anything?
20:17:06 <Vorpal> nooga, you die by getting killed. then you respawn at start with inventory dropped where you died.
20:17:16 <Vorpal> note: objects on ground time out.
20:17:26 <Vorpal> not sure if they time out if the chunk is unloaded
20:17:31 <nooga> i don't want to weit
20:17:36 <Vorpal> or if it only counts down when the chunk in loaded
20:17:37 <nooga> guess i'll start over
20:18:04 <Vorpal> nooga, I still suggest peaceful to figure out the game. Even though elliott says it is wimpy
20:18:20 <elliott> nooga: P.S. place doors from outside.
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20:29:17 <nooga> doors from outside?
20:31:53 <elliott> don't place them from the inside.
20:32:16 <elliott> nooga: you can fight monsters if you place them from outside
20:32:17 <nooga> i can imagine that monsters will be able to open them
20:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> Notch has no problems with making things pointlessly harder.
20:35:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Soon they will be solving redstone puzzles.
20:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh, god, when will \sqrt{-\Garfield} stop that goddamn meme.
20:36:27 <nooga> what am i supposed to do at night?
20:36:37 <nooga> can i at least mine?
20:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> Although you don't want to leave areas of the mine in darkness.
20:36:59 <elliott> nooga: Yes. Make sure to keep all caverns well-lit because monsters can spawn in them.
20:37:10 <elliott> nooga: You can also go outside as long as you have a lot of armour and a goodsword.
20:37:37 <elliott> nooga: If you start expanding your realms by exploring in the day, you can mark your path with torch and then build underground minecart tracks at your convenience; so you can visit your territories at night, too.
20:37:54 <elliott> nooga: And you can always build, so long as you don't go too close to the wrong parts of the surface.
20:38:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> I have actually taken direct hits from a creeper with trivial damage.
20:38:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, um, yeah, if you have decent armour you can go crazy.
20:39:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It's actually pretty safe at night if you have a good sword, full armour, and some food.
20:42:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The problem is that getting to that stage is ... tedious.
20:45:40 <nooga> it's already day but monsters are out
20:47:21 <elliott> nooga: If you mean creepers, they stay. Forever.
20:47:28 <elliott> nooga: If you mean spiders, they're peaceful in the day unless you attack them.
20:47:33 <elliott> But at night... they'll go rabid again.
20:47:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Info from minecraftwiki.
20:47:56 <elliott> During the day, Spiders become passive, and will not become aggressive unless they are attacked. When spiders are in a passive condition, their eyes do not glow red. The player will not receive damage if they touch them. Spiders become aggressive again as soon as night falls or if the player moves into darkness. If they were chasing the player during the night, they will usually continue to chase them during daylight.
20:48:07 <elliott> But I prefer to think they just go elsewhere.
20:48:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: They certainly don't disappear in one day.
20:48:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Hey... mobs don't spawn on half blocks or glass.
20:49:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Build tall wall around huge area. Fill huge area with half blocks.
20:49:25 <Vorpal> elliott, or just light it up?
20:49:40 <elliott> Vorpal: SHUT YOUR MOUTH, THIS IS BETTER
20:50:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't place torches on halfblocks. Nor minecart tracks or anything else that needs to rest on them.
20:50:43 <Vorpal> elliott, but filling with glass sounds more fun
20:50:50 <elliott> Vorpal: You can't place anything on glass either :P
20:51:05 <elliott> Vorpal: But you just build all those in your fortress and underground obviously.
20:51:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but at least placing solid blocks on top won't look like they hover on top
20:51:27 <elliott> Vorpal: That would look awesome.
20:51:41 <elliott> "Ghasts aim at the camera, not the player. Going into 3rd person mode and having a ghast fire a fireball at you will go over the player, given the right camera angle."
20:51:51 <Vorpal> elliott, .... what the fuck
20:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't that be more work
20:52:18 <elliott> The camera is an object I think, so no.
20:52:18 <Vorpal> elliott, in the ghast case you have to think it might be intentional
20:53:21 <nooga> light repels them?
20:53:34 <Vorpal> elliott, do they spawn in light area in nether?
20:53:44 <elliott> Vorpal: They spawn in any light area, yes.
20:53:51 <elliott> nooga: You mean normal monsters?
20:53:55 <elliott> They only spawn in low light.
20:53:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what about dark areas in nether?
20:54:02 <elliott> They'll walk happily onto high light if they can ofc.
20:54:06 <elliott> Vorpal: They spawn anywhere in Nether.
20:54:57 <elliott> I wish forcing antialiasing worked in OS X for Minecraft.
20:56:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it doesn't work /well/ on linux
20:58:29 <elliott> The .app is 32-bit only on OS X.
20:58:56 <Vorpal> elliott, does it get worse or better performance wise?
20:59:18 <elliott> Same I think. But maybe Java was ignoring -sever because I had -d64 -server.
20:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't -server make performance worse iirc?
20:59:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Slower startup, *much* faster running.
20:59:55 <elliott> That's why it's called server: for long-running processes.
21:00:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe it's different for MC but I doubt it.
21:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott, on linux too?
21:00:14 <coppro> what does -server do? pre-optimize?
21:00:31 <elliott> coppro: different runtime entirely
21:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: only has server I think, but I'm not sure
21:01:06 <elliott> do java -help to see the vms :P
21:01:06 <Vorpal> -server to select the "server" VM
21:01:06 <Vorpal> The default VM is server.
21:01:54 <fizzie> -server to select the "server" VM
21:01:55 <fizzie> -cacao to select the "cacao" VM
21:01:55 <fizzie> -zero to select the "zero" VM
21:01:55 <fizzie> The default VM is server.
21:02:09 <fizzie> Maybe it's some sort of a startup script thing?
21:02:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, same for me on ubuntu
21:02:47 <coppro> I can't believe how tiny the PS3 root key is
21:02:55 <elliott> fizzie: Cacao is IcedTea I think.
21:03:03 <elliott> Why does MC break when ran through OpenGL Profiler? Sigh.
21:03:10 <Vorpal> elliott, why not call it -icedtea then or such? :D
21:03:20 <elliott> Vorpal: IcedTea = OpenJDK + Cacao.
21:03:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
21:04:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you see that castle-gate screenshot above btw?
21:04:22 <coppro> http://c1.complang.tuwien.ac.at/cacaowiki/FrontPage
21:05:57 <fizzie> I would think http://www.cacaovm.org/ is more like their "front page".
21:06:26 <coppro> obsidian is a horrible construction material
21:06:29 <fizzie> icedtea-6-jre-cacao, "Alternative JVM for OpenJDK, using Cacao"; that is indeed where it comes from.
21:06:39 <Vorpal> coppro, in real life or in mc?
21:07:04 <coppro> although it's fantastic for making blades out of
21:07:04 <Vorpal> coppro, well I can imagine that
21:07:12 <elliott> coppro: it's pretty though.
21:07:17 <Vorpal> coppro, since when was minecraft realistic?
21:07:31 <coppro> A well-crafted obsidian blade can have a sharp edge with a thickness of 3 nanometers!
21:07:32 <elliott> It is more realistic than real.
21:07:34 <Vorpal> elliott, obsidian is a kind of volcanic glass!
21:07:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Obsidian should be SEETHROUGH
21:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't in real life really
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21:08:05 <fizzie> Interestingly I don't have openjdk-6-jre-zero installed, but it still shows up in -help. (The -zero flag doesn't work, though.)
21:08:09 <coppro> it's a beautiful stunning black
21:08:16 <elliott> coppro: A see-through black.
21:08:19 <Vorpal> elliott, not as in window glass...
21:08:36 <Vorpal> elliott, glass as in the lack of crystalline structure
21:08:54 <fizzie> "Zero is a port of OpenJDK that uses no assembler and therefore can trivially be built on any system. The goal of this project is be to be able to build a TCK-compliant OpenJDK of reasonable performance on any platform with no additional porting work. -- [and it also has] an LLVM-based JIT known as Shark."
21:08:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, actual seethrough.
21:09:14 <elliott> fizzie: My life is enriched with this information.
21:09:22 <elliott> fizzie: I shall now devote a life to learning about JVMs.
21:09:32 <fizzie> It's a sort of a silly name.
21:09:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, since you didn't reply to if you saw it or not: http://ompldr.org/vNnR5aA <-- from one of my single player games. It is built in the pass between two hard to climb mountain ranges.
21:10:07 <fizzie> Yes, no: I did not see it.
21:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> 64 metre high mountains? Seas that are never deeper than your average lake?
21:11:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you mean the generated terrain or the fact that it is based on 1 m³ blocks?
21:11:32 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/cacaocraft
21:11:36 * coppro bugs the boxes devteam
21:11:47 <coppro> LOG: [0x00007f83d5834700] vm_abort: WARNING, port me to C++ and use os::abort() instead.
21:12:24 <Vorpal> the error makes no sense indeed
21:12:31 <fizzie> "Error: no `zero' JVM at `/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/amd64/zero/libjvm.so'"; I'm not sure I want to install it just for that.
21:13:00 <nooga> an exploding prick killed me when i was trying to mount door
21:13:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, lower terrain below ground level around mountain and you can get up to 128 high mountains
21:13:38 <fizzie> 127-metre mountain is still a bit on the "lame" side; even Finland has higher hills than that.
21:13:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, quite
21:14:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, but imagine how slow it would be with even more data per chunk?
21:14:43 <fizzie> elliott: Well, zerocraft works but it's slooow.
21:14:51 <fizzie> (But not slooooow, just slooow.)
21:14:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, only to be expected
21:15:00 <Vorpal> elliott, how many FPS?
21:15:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can get fps with f3 btw
21:15:17 <elliott> nooga: Yeah, uh, don't be stupid. Stay away from them. Keep hitting them and retreating if you're daring
21:16:58 <elliott> Rite, I'ma try 'ttaching instead.
21:17:13 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:17:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, ~30fps, but it goes <10 quite often, and at completely 100% CPU usage; nonzerocraft gives me stable-ish 40-60fps with ~40% CPU load.
21:19:01 -!- elliott has joined.
21:19:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, your computer is better than mine then. No surprise there.
21:20:52 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=18446744073709551615+-+18446744073709551611&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=kT0iTfj9GNSJhQfthLW2BQ
21:21:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it was also a reasonably simplistic indoor scene, and I wasn't moving around a lot. It's not always quite so smoothly animated.
21:22:39 <elliott> fizzie: You know what Minecraft needs?
21:22:44 <elliott> A 2D interface, like Dwarf Fortress.
21:22:50 <elliott> And mcmap, come to think of it.
21:22:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, I get 40 FPS while looking at an empty sky. With 60% CPU
21:22:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, in single player that is
21:23:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, more in multi-player
21:23:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I get 40-50 fps in multiplayer with far/fancy/better light in a window.
21:23:29 <Vorpal> elliott, floating point math I presume
21:23:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes my desktop is dated
21:23:50 <Vorpal> elliott, the gpu load is probably not high
21:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott, how many FPS do you get in glxgears?
21:23:59 <elliott> Full screen — 32/35 to 40.
21:24:03 <fizzie> There's that 2dcraft, but it's a clone (and some sort of weird .net thing), not a minecraft UI.
21:24:27 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc I get 8000-10000 FPS in glxgears
21:24:27 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) I doubt that is very easy to obtain on OS X; (2) glxgears is so far from being a benchmark that it's not even funny.
21:24:30 <elliott> fizzie: But it's not 3D like Dwarf Fortress.
21:24:42 <Vorpal> elliott, true it isn't a benchmark.
21:24:47 <elliott> Wait, I have glxgears. But it's X11-based of course.
21:24:50 <elliott> So no point running it at all.
21:24:59 <elliott> 3140 frames in 5.0 seconds = 627.893 FPS
21:24:59 <elliott> 3780 frames in 5.0 seconds = 754.286 FPS
21:25:01 <Vorpal> elliott, no opengl acceleration in X on OS X?
21:25:07 <fizzie> glxgears framerate depends quite a lot on window size, too.
21:25:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably, but it's still massive overhead.
21:25:13 <elliott> fizzie: Indeed; that was with the default size.
21:25:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I assumed standard window size
21:25:19 <elliott> Vorpal: But it's not even _close_ to a benchmark.
21:25:29 <elliott> Vorpal: See http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Glxgears_is_not_a_Benchmark.
21:25:33 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed it isn't
21:25:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and I know that
21:25:36 <elliott> "So to summarize, glxgears only tests a small part of what you typically see in a 3D game. You could have glxgears FPS performance increase, but your 3D game performance decrease. Likewise, you could have glxgears performance decrease and your 3D game performance increase."
21:25:45 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to get the default window size here, since it's a tiling VM. Maybe if I float it it'll assume the default size.
21:25:59 <elliott> Right. Usually they're funny.
21:26:09 <fizzie> 44781 frames in 5.0 seconds = 8956.168 FPS
21:26:12 <elliott> fizzie: Tiling Minecraft -- that must go well for you. (OK, you probably float it or use a desktop.)
21:26:37 <fizzie> elliott: No, I keep it as a half-a-screen sized 960x1200 window, actually.
21:27:13 <Vorpal> elliott, glxgears is still useful to check "do I have software or hardware 3D?"
21:27:22 <elliott> fizzie: When all you have is a hammer^Wtiling window manager...
21:27:29 <elliott> Vorpal: see http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Glxgears_is_not_a_Benchmark#Debunking_the_Myth_.28glxgears_is_a_benchmark.29 and following section
21:27:37 <fizzie> Whenever I make a more "landscape" window, the silly thing resizes all the UI elements to take horribly much space.
21:27:44 <fizzie> With the 960x1200 window, they're reasonably small.
21:28:25 <Vorpal> You can use it to show that DRI works, but it does not even test that well. There's glxinfo or your Xorg.0.log to tell you if DRI was enabled as well. <-- well it tests that well IME. Maybe not so much with fast modern CPUs though
21:28:37 <Vorpal> but 5 years ago it worked perfectly for checking that DRI worked
21:29:59 * elliott watches the Yellow Rose demo. (A prerecording 'cuz I'm a loser.)
21:30:26 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ftp.kameli.net/pub/fit/yellow_rose/Yellow_Rose.mov is a fairly-low-quality recording.
21:30:36 <elliott> Pretty nice for a 4K demo (that it runs on Linux and OS X does NOT BIAS ME AT ALL)
21:30:45 <elliott> Admittedly there are some super-impressive 4Ks out there.
21:31:15 <Vorpal> it fails badly at streaming
21:31:26 <elliott> mplayer is very bad at stremaing if you're trying that.
21:31:35 <Vorpal> elliott, was trying vlc
21:31:38 <elliott> http://ftp.kameli.net/pub/fit/yellow_rose/ Here's a bunch of ports.
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21:31:46 <elliott> SGI, Solaris, MorphOS, NetBSD, OS2, PPC Amiga...
21:32:02 <elliott> ...and Android if you'll believe it.
21:32:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Amiga OS 4 I believe.
21:32:51 <Vorpal> elliott, which language is it?
21:32:58 <elliott> Very impressive, if Finnish-commented (in one file, osa.c).
21:33:09 <elliott> I find myself wondering where all the actual code is.
21:33:13 <Vorpal> elliott, and this compiled to less than 4K on all those?
21:33:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I imagine that's not "guaranteed".
21:33:44 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance the 64-bit Linux binary here is 25K.
21:33:50 <elliott> Possibly just the Windows binary was 4K, but does it matter?
21:34:00 <fizzie> Makefile hardcodes gcc-3.3, heh.
21:34:22 <elliott> fizzie: Well, new gcc versions can be verrry buggy.
21:34:49 <Vorpal> does it use opengl or?
21:35:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a software-3d version.
21:36:29 <fizzie> It seems to have mostly replaced "glFoo" calls with "mlFoo", and then there's a ml.c that implements just those few it does call.
21:37:03 <fizzie> C.f. the glLight "reimplementation": http://p.zem.fi/u7hs
21:37:38 <fizzie> It's not quite as complete a OpenGL 3d renderer as, say, Mesa.
21:37:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't call the hardware opengl then?
21:38:11 <fizzie> The "default" version does.
21:38:26 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you feel dizzy?
21:38:30 <fizzie> I guess those ports that don't have it are based on the sw-3d version.
21:38:37 <elliott> And runs full screen by default.
21:38:56 <fizzie> Incidentally, I didn't even know pouet has OS icons for Solars and SGI/IRIX ports.
21:39:11 <fizzie> Seven Solaris demos in their repositomatory.
21:39:16 <fizzie> http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform[]=Solaris
21:39:31 <elliott> fizzie: Those fit guys like Solaris.
21:39:57 <fizzie> Yes, four out of the seven are fit/bandwagon products, I see.
21:40:08 <fizzie> Well, one is just fit.
21:40:35 <elliott> http://www.kameli.net/~marq/pROSEssing/
21:40:40 <elliott> Ported to Processing, now with antialiasing. :p
21:41:02 <fizzie> Their port-icon list at http://pouet.net/groups.php?which=409 is also rather more colorful than most. I see some BeOS there.
21:41:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't they have one for every one in the list?
21:41:25 <elliott> fizzie: That Chrysler one, impressive :P
21:41:54 <elliott> I wonder what the most ported one is
21:41:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Probably, but I didn't know the Solaris scene was so lively.
21:42:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, not very lively really
21:42:33 <Vorpal> compared to, say, windows. Or even to linu
21:42:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well fair enough
21:42:43 <pikhq> The *PSP* keys suffer from the same vulnerability.
21:42:53 <pikhq> That's two consoles hacked from one mistake.
21:43:11 <elliott> pikhq: Wasn't the PHP already homebrew'd up the wazoo?
21:43:34 <pikhq> elliott: They discovered ways to downgrade the firmware to vulnerable ones.
21:43:46 <pikhq> Much like the PS3 can be downgraded.
21:44:56 <fizzie> Heh, one of the Solaris prods (Centripetality, a game) is by a friend; I think it's very likely that's because of the Solaris boxes in one of the university's computer classrooms.
21:45:41 <elliott> fizzie: Stretching the term of demo a bit.
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21:46:54 <fizzie> As long as it's in a compo at some sort of a demoscene-related event, I think it's good enough for pouët.
21:47:30 <fizzie> I didn't like it too much, but that's probably just because I'm not twitchy enough; it needs rather quick flipping between colors there.
21:47:50 <fizzie> Also the controls, like all the commentators say.
21:48:04 <elliott> My question on the Ubuntu forums is getting lots (none) of expert help!
21:48:59 <elliott> Looking at the list of controls, I need more hands.
21:50:48 <Vorpal> sounds like rather unusual gameplay
21:50:52 <elliott> fizzie: Oh dear god this would be fun were it not so god damn hard.
21:50:55 <fizzie> Oh, the web scoreboard is still up and all. (Though for the most part the entries are all 3 years ago. Still, there's one in the top-20 that's just one week old.)
21:51:09 <elliott> It doesn't help that my ctrl key is very inaccessible.
21:51:17 <elliott> Fuck it, I'll make caps lock ctrl just for this.
21:51:19 <Vorpal> elliott, where is ctrl?
21:51:26 <fizzie> elliott: I just kept getting confused about which color my ship was and switching exactly when I shouldn't.
21:51:29 <elliott> Vorpal: To the /right/ of Fn for some ungodly reason.
21:51:44 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you argue it should be outermost before?
21:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember that
21:51:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Ctrl? IT SHOULD BE.
21:52:17 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, isn't fn always outermost?
21:52:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I never seen a laptop where it isn't
21:52:31 <elliott> ThinkPads and Macs are the only ones where it's outmost.
21:52:35 <elliott> And it's _stupid_. And irritating.
21:52:39 <Vorpal> elliott, let me check my old dell
21:53:07 <Vorpal> huh indeed not outermost
21:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I always found ctrl hard to hit on my old dell
21:53:23 <Vorpal> guess I'm just too used to my thinkpad
21:54:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I can manage exactly two keyboards well: generic full sized pc keyboard (NOT thin models though!). And my thinkpad
21:54:27 <elliott> fizzie: This game - HARDEST EVER.
21:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, harder than "I wanna be the guy"?
21:55:04 <fizzie> elliott: Take "more than 28737 points" as your score-goal, then you have beaten the game's developer.
21:55:12 <elliott> fizzie: I'm getting, like, 5000! WOOOO
21:55:29 <Vorpal> doesn't sound too hard to get points then?
21:55:45 <fizzie> elliott: Well, with >6921 you have beaten me, according to the web-scoreboard.
21:55:55 <elliott> Fuck this, I'm playing IWBTG.
21:56:10 <elliott> http://darwine.sourceforge.net/ ;; very alive
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21:56:17 <fizzie> My rank seems to be the honorable 208th.
21:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=120946&sid=fb4376cb29342af1342de884bbc7f90b
21:56:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I HAVE FOUND WHAT WE SHOULD BASE ASTEROIDS II ON SORT OF
21:56:36 <elliott> AS IN ASTEROIDS II SHOULD BE MUCH LESS HARD
21:56:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=%2Fparties%2F2007%2Fassembly07%2Fgame%2Fcentripetality_by_aroppuu_huamn_juhovh.zip&fileinfo
21:56:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Note: Game is possible to play only for Finns.
21:57:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: May require three hands.
21:57:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> Fuck this, I'm playing IWBTG. <-- windows only iirc?
21:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> I do love the people who say that Notch is doing us a favour by letting us play MC before it's done.
21:58:26 <fizzie> Is that zip the Linux-x86 version or what?
21:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover_> What it isn't is 64-bit, or even runnable on a 64-bit system.
22:00:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Just install lib32-blah
22:00:16 <elliott> fizzie: It's a bunch of platforms in one.
22:00:48 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: It has a Solaris/SPARC port, though. Doesn't that count as something?
22:01:09 <Vorpal> why does the readme in http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=%2Fparties%2F2007%2Fassembly07%2Fgame%2Fcentripetality_by_aroppuu_huamn_juhovh.zip&fileinfo render as an image
22:01:13 <Vorpal> that is fucking stupid
22:01:43 <fizzie> That's just something scene.org does.
22:01:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, how utterly silly
22:01:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You have libsomething32bitsomethingsomething
22:02:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I forget the *exact* names.
22:02:08 <elliott> Vorpal: It's because of charsets.
22:02:10 <elliott> Vorpal: It's an NFO renderer.
22:02:22 <elliott> So there is no way to portably display them properly without an image.
22:02:25 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it know which code page?
22:02:32 <elliott> Vorpal: There's only one that anyone used.
22:02:40 <elliott> DOS had no real codepages.
22:02:40 <fizzie> That's not exactly true any more. :p
22:02:46 <elliott> There was just "the IBM PC font".
22:02:59 <fizzie> The image-rendering manages to break all party results textfiles and everything.
22:03:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember you often loaded code pages in Sweden to get the chars
22:03:26 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact you had to
22:03:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: ia32-libs for one
22:03:36 <Vorpal> elliott, so yes there was more than one code page loaded
22:03:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I forget the name for SDL.
22:03:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Or just Compile It Yourself.
22:04:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so this just assumes the US standard code page?
22:04:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: sf.net/project/centripality
22:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, only US/UK and such used it
22:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott, it was never popular in Sweden for example
22:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, correction: nobody who used the default code page because it had their letters in it cares.
22:05:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: MODULO TYPOS/WHATEVER
22:05:46 <elliott> google "<centripality or whatever> sourceforge"
22:05:49 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: http://sourceforge.net/projects/centripetality/
22:06:00 <fizzie> Here's a link if you need desperately to click on something.
22:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at spelling :D
22:06:27 <elliott> Specially as I never actually looked at the name.
22:06:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: I'm not sure the open-source version supports the web-scoreboard, though. And I'm sure you want to get your FAME ON.
22:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, made up words derived trivially from English ones.
22:07:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Wah wah wah.
22:07:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, quite
22:07:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I wonder why elliott is acting so childish now
22:07:50 <elliott> I think Vorpal is just looking for ways to complain at this point.
22:07:59 <fizzie> On a Utnubbu system I don't think it needs anything else than ia32-libs to run.
22:08:03 <elliott> I solemnly swear to NEVER TYPO A GAME NAME EVER AGAIN
22:08:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you are pathetic.
22:08:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: SORRY can't reply I'm too busy being too childish to reply.
22:08:28 <elliott> Vorpal: That time of the month again...?
22:08:31 <Gregor> Hey there different-group-of-people-from-yesterday.
22:08:50 <Vorpal> elliott, very droll. But I guess you should know, alise.
22:09:06 <Gregor> Help us make an unsolvable game!
22:09:21 <elliott> Oh wow, you're reaching the height of comedy Vorpal. Soon I'll have to ignore you before laughing so hard I wet my pants.
22:09:23 <Gregor> (Which is nonetheless strategic, fun, and playable by humans)
22:09:39 <elliott> Gregor: The unsolvable game is asking people to make an unsolvable game which is nonetheless strategic, fun, and playable by humans.
22:09:49 <elliott> Gregor: You trick people into helping, have fun doing it...
22:09:52 <elliott> but ultimately, it is impossible.
22:09:53 <Gregor> elliott: ... YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND
22:10:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess a simple intellect like yours is easily amused.
22:10:10 <Vorpal> elliott, (wait this reminds me of monkey island)
22:10:18 <Gregor> But anyway, I put our current thoughts here: http://codu.org/wiki/N-in-a-row%20game
22:10:37 <elliott> Vorpal: You know, I haven't actually flooded anything with lava lately. If you don't stop being inane I might be less careful with buckets.
22:11:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you take it to threats like that? ...
22:11:08 <nooga> i think i i've found redstone but i don't even have iron yet
22:11:36 <Vorpal> nooga, no point in mining it then. Since you won't get anything from it. Find iron first
22:11:50 <nooga> theres no goddamn iron in this worls
22:11:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Considering you've basically been irritating me for no discernible reason based on one not-even-typo, and continue to do so, yes, I'll raise it to basically anything I want.
22:11:54 <Vorpal> nooga, iron might be harder to see than redstone certainly
22:12:06 <elliott> nooga: You have to set up an actual mine.
22:12:20 <nooga> i'm digging tunnels
22:12:28 <Vorpal> nooga, how deep are you?
22:12:36 <nooga> how am i supposed to know
22:12:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, what's so great with a staircase mine?
22:12:47 <Vorpal> nooga, f3 shows coordinates
22:12:53 <nooga> i did 3 staircases and found only gravel
22:13:18 <Vorpal> nooga, it isn't redstone unless y is less than, 30 or so
22:13:23 <elliott> nooga: You need to do staircases and then branch off.
22:13:35 <elliott> nooga: Main staircase, make corridors in the sides, and then make corridors going off *those*.
22:13:40 <elliott> nooga: And that's how you do it.
22:13:54 <Vorpal> nooga, x,y,z y is altitude above bottom of map
22:14:01 <elliott> nooga: i.e., the corridors you actually mine in are the same direction as your stairs.
22:14:22 <Vorpal> nooga, maybe redstone then.
22:14:43 <elliott> nooga: It's redstone if it's red.
22:14:50 <elliott> Brought to you by "Vorpal Makes It Complicated" Industries.
22:15:14 <elliott> Redstone is red. Things that aren't redstone are not red.
22:15:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well red flowers... (sorry)
22:16:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, the advantage of staircase mining is that it's both simple and dense: if you plan correctly, you can ensure that you have examined every block within the range of the mining.
22:17:15 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/gDee5.png oh shit
22:18:03 <Vorpal> elliott, wrong dimensions for my screen though :/
22:18:07 <nooga> i just found a tunnel with nice stream
22:18:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, oh like my high density mines then? That model (which I do not claim to have invented) are good for when you are already near the bottom and want to mine a lot at a given altitude
22:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, are your high-density mines just the ones in Mt. Vorpal?
22:19:47 <nooga> how do you get rid of rubble?
22:20:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, yes those multi-layer ones that look like a zipper
22:20:41 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover_: this cobblestone that you collect when mining?
22:20:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it's a form of branch mining
22:21:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, either a) put it in a chest or b) throw it elsewhere.
22:23:01 <nooga> for cobblestone? :F
22:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> (I have things set up such that I never need to leave my shelter.)
22:23:18 <Vorpal> nooga, you probably want to save some, but not all
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22:23:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well if you are that style of player :D
22:23:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you have chests full of iron then?
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22:24:34 <elliott> nooga: Cooblestones are useful for pickaxes.
22:24:38 <elliott> You won't _always_ have iron.
22:24:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You're straying into very Vorpally territory.
22:24:56 <Vorpal> not at the start anyway
22:25:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what is wrong with having a lot in chests?
22:25:13 <nooga> buy 900 cobblestone is useless
22:25:22 <elliott> I mean arranging things so you never have to leave.
22:25:33 <elliott> nooga: As long as you mine at least three cobbles with each stone pickaxe you're good :P
22:25:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well. That follows as a result of having huge stores in chests
22:26:00 <Vorpal> elliott, actually you never /have/ to leave once you have a small shelter and one torch
22:26:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I leave even though I don't have to. Because it would be boring otherwise
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22:26:52 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, can't you just have a two high wall four around you (8 blocks), plus one block above? You'd need to place 10 blocks (one extra to get the top block in, but the final result would just be 9 blocks).
22:27:02 <elliott> Nothing can get into that, nothing can spawn in it, and you need nothing else forever.
22:27:13 <fizzie> 900 cobblestone is not especially much for some sort of a megastructure.
22:27:18 <elliott> I conclude that to win Minecraft, one has to mine 10 blocks, and you then complete the game with one block.
22:27:30 <elliott> Well... actually, removing the block you need to place the top would be difficult.
22:27:34 <Vorpal> elliott, every time I started a single player game I ended up on a beech. I don't get it. Isn't the starting position random at all?
22:27:38 <elliott> So basically to win Minecraft takes 10 blocks of any description. Well, apart from sand.
22:27:45 <elliott> Vorpal: I end up on a beach quite often but I don't think always.
22:27:55 <Vorpal> elliott, true that would work
22:28:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, 900 is hardly enough for any sort of mega structure
22:28:28 <Vorpal> but too much for everything else
22:29:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you need 9 blocks. You can remove the one used to place and then reuse it for another yet unbuilt wall
22:29:25 <Vorpal> assuming it is something that can be removed
22:29:57 <elliott> Takes 10 blocks and you finish with one.
22:30:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you could manage with two blocks if you find a straight cliff side. mine two. walk into the hole. Place the two just outside the hole
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22:30:25 <nooga> does lava mean that there are precios minerals near?
22:30:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I will do that now.
22:30:37 <elliott> nooga: It means you're near the bottom of the lava, where most minerals are.
22:30:38 <nooga> like, is it wise to start a mine near lava lake?
22:30:41 <Vorpal> elliott, or 3 blocks if you dig down into the ground and place one back above you
22:30:49 <nooga> elliott: the lava is on surface
22:30:55 <elliott> nooga: That indicates nothing.
22:30:59 <elliott> nooga: (Good luck to find one of them though.)
22:31:00 <Vorpal> elliott, there are lava lakes at many altitudes nowdays
22:31:05 <elliott> nooga: Build a base on top for the lulz.
22:31:08 <Vorpal> elliott, even just a few blocks below
22:31:14 <nooga> i don't have glass :D
22:31:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Shush, I'm about to win Minecraft with two blocks.
22:31:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I noticed lava lakes on the surface are WAY more common in SMP than in single player
22:31:30 <Vorpal> elliott, based on a local testing server
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22:32:28 <Vorpal> elliott, two blocks remember
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22:32:36 <nooga> hart staircases do you build?
22:32:52 <elliott> nooga: I did 3x3 shafts and then do the middle as staircases.
22:33:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Took two dirt from a hill, stepped inside, placed them on the floor outside.
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22:33:39 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I spawned in that once. On a beech in one.
22:33:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah whatever
22:33:59 <elliott> Vorpal: English spelling fail
22:34:21 <Vorpal> note to self: always say "beech" to elliott instead. And call the tree "beach". Just to annoy him
22:34:58 <pikhq> ENGLISH IS NOT THAT HARD. :P
22:35:58 <Vorpal> elliott, bug since beta yes
22:36:05 <Vorpal> elliott, try those mods. they help somewhat
22:36:41 <Vorpal> elliott, try the save one? I haven't tried that one yet
22:36:59 <elliott> I might but I rarely play SSP.
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22:38:18 <elliott> WATERFALL OMG WATERFALL LOVE
22:38:37 <Sgeo> People farm cobblestone?
22:38:51 <Vorpal> elliott, scared of the monsters?
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22:39:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not farm really no
22:39:10 <elliott> I play peaceful because I'm a wimp.
22:39:30 <Vorpal> elliott, also hypocrite
22:39:44 <elliott> I don't recommend that other people become wimps.
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22:45:22 <nooga> uh i died but i've managet to get back
22:45:36 <nooga> zombie spawned in a cavern
22:45:40 <coppro> this is the best idea ever
22:45:45 <coppro> invert my screen every 0.5 seconds
22:45:45 <Vorpal> nooga, need more lights then
22:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, make sure to warn any epileptic person then!
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22:47:40 <elliott> Munekhtew is a monkey cthulhu
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22:52:00 <elliott> Gregor: what about infinite D tic tac toe, oklopol played that with me
22:52:02 <elliott> 21:55 Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=120946&sid=fb4376cb29342af1342de884bbc7f90b
22:52:40 <elliott> Gregor: basically you had to get 4 in a row in any dimension i think... coordinates were lists of naturals (or integers, I forget)
22:52:57 <elliott> Gregor: it may have been more complex than that. I remember it had its own mini-language to describe infinite coordinate lists :)
22:53:06 <elliott> Gregor: The nice thing there is that the coordinates are isomorphic to reals.
22:53:58 <Gregor> One of the requirements is that it be fun and playable with pencil-and-paper. In other words, you're not doing constant insane math, and real numbers are pretty much right out. :P
22:54:16 <elliott> Gregor: you don't even think about the reals
22:54:21 <elliott> Gregor: it's just infinite coordinate lists
22:54:34 <elliott> Gregor: btw i played it with oklopol with a bot and it /was/ fun, so fuck your pencil-and-paper requirement
22:54:40 <elliott> Gregor: hell, playing chess with pencil-and-paper is a bitch
22:54:45 <elliott> Gregor: so what is the point of that requirement?
22:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_circuits#The_North.2FSouth_Quirk
22:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, VERY USEFUL but /might/ be fixed
22:55:46 <Gregor> OK, I guess pencil-and-paper /per se/ wasn't what I was looking for, just playable with minimal setup "in real life" (that is, no computer required)
22:55:58 <Gregor> Pencil-and-paper is just nice because it's near-zero setup.
22:56:21 <elliott> Gregor: You can do this with pencil and paper quite easily, just note down the filled columns. It's not a /graphical/ representation, but "meh".
22:56:32 <elliott> nooga: Smelt it in a furnace (1 coal = 8 ores turned into N ingots).
22:57:05 <elliott> Gregor: An interface would be quite fun, since you can "hack" it into a finite display by saying that (X 0 0 0 0 ...) is X, and all the rest of X is "inside" X.
22:57:11 <nooga> but then what to do with the iron? armor? wapon? iron picks aren't too durable
22:57:13 <elliott> And then (X Y 0 0 0 0 ...) is Y for all Y, etc.
22:57:26 <elliott> Gregor: So you can basically move around the board, and go inside one level, and that lets you navigate.
22:57:35 <elliott> Gregor: Of course infinite placement requires /some/ kind of expressive moves, but eh :P
22:57:47 <elliott> nooga: They aren't, but you need them to mine quite a bit of stuff.
22:57:53 <elliott> nooga: Armour and sword are always good picks.
22:58:01 <Vorpal> <elliott> nooga: Smelt it in a furnace (1 coal = 8 ores turned into N ingots). <-- where N = 8
22:58:21 <elliott> nooga: So basically you have 90 iron ingots.
22:58:31 <elliott> nooga: You can make all the armour with that I believe.
22:58:40 <elliott> And probably a few tools too.
22:58:44 <elliott> Sword and pickaxe I'd go for.
22:58:52 <elliott> Of course you might want to keep a lot of it for later :P
22:59:10 <Vorpal> nooga, sword and pickaxe, then armor. And don't throw away any iron like you did with the cobble
23:00:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Armour is most important.
23:00:35 <elliott> Make a full set of iron armour, two swords, and the rest into pickaxes (with a few swords if you have enough).
23:00:52 <elliott> I mean, stone tools aren't actually all that bad and they're super-renewable.
23:01:08 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean leather armor
23:01:10 <elliott> I doubt he has any armour now, so getting it would be a high priority.
23:01:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeaaah not only is that a pain to get the leather for but it's beyond useless :P
23:01:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Got any chainmail in your game?
23:01:51 <elliott> It's made out of PURE FIRE http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Chainmail
23:01:57 <Vorpal> elliott, no, that would be cheating :P
23:02:29 <elliott> nooga: Anyway, iron armour is pretty much the most practical armour considering that diamond is incredibly scarce, gold is a joke, and leather is... leather.
23:02:29 <Vorpal> "Chainmail armor has the same durability as Gold armor. "
23:02:35 <Vorpal> in other words. Pretty useless
23:02:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Just get MORE FIRE
23:03:28 <Sgeo> Does diamond stuff ever break
23:03:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes. But it takes ages
23:03:57 <Sgeo> Does HHI have diamond supplies?
23:04:07 <elliott> Diamond is utterly free on the server :P
23:04:17 <Vorpal> elliott, only for the 3 basic tools
23:04:19 <elliott> There's a large chest (ok, currently inaccessible) of it at spawn, and there's a kit to get diamond tools.
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23:04:29 <Vorpal> elliott, not sword indeed
23:04:32 <elliott> The chest will probably be fixed sometime.
23:04:40 <Sgeo> A "kit" to get diamond tools?
23:04:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes for pickaxe/axe/spade
23:05:25 <Sgeo> How does a chest become accidentally inaccssible?
23:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, btw the tools in the "stacks" are used one at a time I found. So if you have a stack of 3-4 you can forget to renew for some time
23:05:32 <elliott> It's under spawn protection.
23:05:35 <elliott> Server-side inventory stole it from us.
23:05:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, by being in spawn protection area
23:05:50 <elliott> Sgeo: Also we have a kit that fills your entire inventory with glass. Including armour slots.
23:05:54 <elliott> You actually see the glass cube on your head.
23:06:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you should have glass elsewhere on your body IMO
23:06:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how you can get cactusheads and portalheads.
23:06:38 <elliott> I would pay good money for a portalhead.
23:06:45 <Vorpal> elliott, portalheads? LINK!
23:06:51 <olsner> I've been thinking about some kind of assembly language with macros, types and abstraction, but everything still rooted in actual assembly... you could see it as the ultimate assembly-generation DSL
23:06:59 <elliott> Vorpal: There were no pictures but it was in a thread of people trying various headgears.
23:07:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Apparently the portal actually animates.
23:07:17 <elliott> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Level_Assembly Congrats, you're a crazy person.
23:07:18 <Vorpal> try it on a local server
23:07:50 <Vorpal> <olsner> I've been thinking about some kind of assembly language with macros, types and abstraction, but everything still rooted in actual assembly... you could see it as the ultimate assembly-generation DSL <-- dependant types!?
23:07:51 <elliott> olsner: Just write enough of Lisp to have an x86 assembler and macros, and you can built types, structures etc. on top of that. But, oops! Haha, you just invented Lisp.
23:07:51 <Sgeo> Adamantium needs to exist
23:08:01 <elliott> olsner: So why would you want to use assembly.
23:08:12 <elliott> Sgeo: It does, it's called bedrock.
23:09:00 <elliott> AKA bedrock because adminium is a horrible name.
23:09:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I /gave myself some on my local test server then built a room out of it and added a warp point inside. Great fun.
23:09:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, er, great fun.
23:09:57 <olsner> elliott: hmm, maybe it would end up as crazy as HLA by necessity, was hoping for awesome rather than crazy though :P
23:10:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yes because you could never break it with TNT. Not even with with >500 TNT (which could break obsidian)
23:10:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://imgur.com/a/hGmQ1/1#ZCUK4 100-block diameter dome of jaw-dropping awesomeness.
23:10:32 <olsner> Vorpal: dependent types, yes, probably...
23:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> FWIW, I think it is actually possible to penetrate bedrock or obsidian ceilings.
23:10:39 <elliott> olsner: You know what dependent types are, right?
23:11:09 <elliott> olsner: And, well, as I said, the simplest and most awesome way to do this is Lisp ... but when you have Lisp, why would you want assembly>
23:11:52 <elliott> olsner: You just need a bunch of assembler primitives and the basic Lisp toolset -- then you can build labels, "combined" instructions (i.e. "mov" out of all the different kinds of mov), proper addressing (just have the offsets etc. built in to the primitives -- basically make it a direct match for machine code).
23:12:01 <elliott> olsner: Then you can build macros, types, etc. on top of that with Lisp macros.
23:12:05 <fizzie> What's the tooltip for bedrock? "Bedrock"?
23:12:30 <elliott> fizzie: "What how do you have this stop it"
23:12:31 <olsner> well, the idea was that it should allow enough abstraction to be able to have a language like haskell defined as a combination of type system and "macro" features that you can write haskell-syntax programs and your macros do code-generation to assembly code like a haskell compiler would :)
23:13:05 <olsner> and also a level more like C, where you mostly have register allocation and function calls handled for you
23:13:05 <elliott> olsner: so basically you substitute fragile macros for a real language :>
23:13:42 <elliott> Welp, be back in 20-30-40 minutes.
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23:15:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: "What how do you have this stop it" <-- really? *goes to check*
23:16:07 <fizzie> No, it's just bedrock.
23:16:59 <fizzie> tile.bedrock.name=Bedrock
23:17:18 <fizzie> (lang/en_US.lang in minecraft.jar.)
23:17:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, it has langauges?
23:17:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, what locales does it have?
23:17:49 <fizzie> That's the only file in there.
23:18:00 <fizzie> But it seems like an attempt for localization.
23:18:16 <fizzie> It contains what seems to be the most of the text in the UI.
23:19:10 <fizzie> Incidentally, the "internal names" for Netherrack, Soul Sand and Glowstone (i.e. netherstuff, slowsand/mud and lightstone) are "hellrock", "hellsand" and "lightgem".
23:21:55 <fizzie> Github's thing where if you write "closes #n" or "fixes #n" in a commit message, it actually goes and closes issue #n, puts a link to the issue-post into the commit view, and adds the commit message as a comment in the issue (except with "closes/fixes #n" → "closed/fixed by [commit id]") is a nice (if quirky) thing.
23:28:23 <zzo38> Invent a TeX format for code golf.
23:29:04 <Sgeo> "Yeah, only MP, SP fences are just fine.
23:29:19 <Sgeo> Well, that's nice, random bugs seemingly unrelated to the mode are mode dependent
23:29:20 <zzo38> I used to think there was no command in TeX for calculating overfullness of boxes, but actually there is.
23:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover_> It still baffles me why you wouldn't just make SP a special case of MP.
23:31:04 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: What is SP, does it stand for "Special" or "Special Point" or something like that?
23:31:12 <Sgeo> I'd probably completely fail to realize that people would want SP
23:31:15 <Sgeo> zzo38, single player
23:31:45 <zzo38> Well then, you should have a single-player mode, multi-player, and multi-player with one player.
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23:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, where the last of those is exactly equivalent to single-player.
23:36:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, I still get that high altitude bug. Updated one hour ago
23:36:13 <zzo38> If that is how it works, then you don't need single-player mode, except for it to possibly mean turn off network access.
23:37:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, f3 reports 114
23:37:40 <Vorpal> and placing on ground next to me
23:37:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, now it only bugs in top view
23:38:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, not in normal view
23:38:17 <Vorpal> oh wait, normal too, but less obvious
23:39:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, does not happen at 113, but happens at 115
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23:41:36 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to do something strange.
23:42:03 <elliott> fizzie: I made an isue 'cuz i'm cool
23:42:21 <elliott> fizzie: i would prefer it if nomap didn't use sdl
23:42:34 <elliott> well i guess it might already be loaded
23:42:45 <fizzie> It's linked-to, anyway.
23:43:14 <fizzie> Like the comment says, a no-SDL nomap would be nicer; but I don't think it makes much practical difference there.
23:43:21 <elliott> fizzie: Would you think it rude if I rewrote the wholet hing in ML? :D
23:44:23 <olsner> elliott: continuing from before, what I have in mind is not really "macros" in the typical code-that-makes-code macros... rather something like type classes, let's say it'd let you define a category of "boxed values" and describe that they are thunks that get forced when looked at
23:45:31 <elliott> 'tronic uses higher resolution textures than the standard minecraft ones so you need to run the HD Texture Fix or your bricks and hellstone will look all fucked up."
23:45:36 <elliott> What a weird thing to break.
23:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, fun fact: minecraft uses a signed value for durability. And counts up. Not down. With an inventory editor you could make a twice as durable diamond tool for example :D
23:46:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed. That has been done.
23:46:43 <elliott> Vorpal: With negative values.
23:46:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Also Minecraft uses signed EVERYTHING; Java has no unsigned.
23:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, what about reading binary data with unsigned values?
23:47:38 <fizzie> You add a lot of &0xff's in.
23:47:51 * elliott decides to try Tronic again.
23:48:16 <elliott> I love how Java perfectly strides the line between low-level drudge work and high-level limitedness, achieving neither.
23:48:23 <elliott> Truly the most useless of languages.
23:49:24 <elliott> fizzie: You never answered my ML question! How rude!
23:49:27 <Vorpal> elliott, btw about that stupid "for older computer" texture pack. I just realised that with texture compression involved it /might/ actually save some video ram. Very very doubtful it would make a difference though
23:49:43 <elliott> Vorpal: But DUDE, it has to PUT LESS PIXELS
23:50:07 <Vorpal> coppro, what does it do?
23:50:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Zero-extend bitshift, IIRC.
23:50:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well not that. But it might, /just might/, have to shuffle less data to/from video ram
23:50:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, in which language
23:50:23 <fizzie> The default >> sign-extends.
23:50:59 <olsner> (as for why assembly is involved in my idea - it's mostly because I've been writing assembly lately and realized it involves a lot of boring drudge work :) )
23:51:21 <Sgeo> Ok, who let Notch play with the Minecraft Wiki?
23:51:30 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, I must've erased that comment. It was something along the lines of "no, as long as you don't push the ML rewrite as the master branch of mcmap". Of course you're free to reimplement it in any language you like.
23:51:33 <olsner> (so I want something that'll both allow register fiddling and custom calling conventions (where relevant or interesting), as well as higher-level programming where you don't really care, while never leaving the same language... was thinking about making an actual haskell dsl to generate my kernel assembly, and then thought some more along those lines :P)
23:51:38 <Sgeo> The wiki is dow
23:51:54 <elliott> fizzie: Can I push it to the totally-better-and-more-awesome-fizzie-sucks branch?
23:52:34 <elliott> olsner: I wanted to do a Scheme OS a while back, and someone lisppasted an awesome x86 assembler written in a few hundred lines of Scheme.
23:52:35 <fizzie> Well, sure, I don't see anything rude about that.
23:53:09 <elliott> olsner: The most AWSUM(tm) way to do a kernel in Scheme would be to write the code with an in-Scheme assembler, building up useful macros to relieve the drudge work, so that you have macros that implement a sizeable subset of a Scheme compiler.
23:53:31 <elliott> olsner: Then you write a Scheme JIT compiler in this Scheme-based-assembler-with-macro-based-compiler-of-a-lot-of-Scheme.
23:53:40 <elliott> olsner: Voila! You can now do the rest in Scheme, with inline Scheme-assembler.
23:53:48 <elliott> olsner: What I'm saying is, live my dreams for me so I don't have to do the work.
23:53:53 <Vorpal> elliott, spawn on multiplayer test server is not at 0,0 btw. And it is on a beach.
23:54:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it has not been moved
23:54:21 <Vorpal> elliott, however it is closer to 0,0 than on ineiros's server
23:54:23 <elliott> Vorpal: heh. very well then, but obviously someone travelled to (0,0), moved about three chunks, and then left
23:54:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Close, close ... I'm too hardcore to depend on anything but an assembler, so the implementation of the @-language is done in pure, raw assembly.
23:54:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The way I figure it is: if I wanted to use a better language I would use @-lang.
23:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott, spawn coords: -19 -34
23:55:21 <nooga> this is what i call mining
23:55:32 <nooga> i've found an ultimate cavern
23:56:03 <coppro> there exists a chance of a better one
23:56:37 <elliott> Your MOM is the ultimate cavern lol
23:56:51 <coppro> elliott: that's what she said
23:57:00 <Sgeo> I'm slightly upset that all MC worlds are larger than the largest AW world
23:57:02 <elliott> coppro: osnap—that's what your face said to her when she said it
23:57:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> <Sgeo> I'm slightly upset that all MC worlds are larger than the largest AW world
23:57:16 <elliott> Sgeo: Also, all MC worlds are more fun than the funnest possible AW world (which is no fun at all).
23:57:40 <nooga> LOADS OF GODDAMN IRON
23:57:43 <elliott> nooga: don't you have enough
23:57:48 <coppro> elliott: your awful awful comeback
23:57:55 <coppro> world needs more rockraiders remakes
23:57:57 <elliott> coppro: almost as awful as your mom
23:57:59 <Sgeo> AlphaWorld is (32750 * 2)^2 square meters
23:58:02 <olsner> elliott: I don't think scheme is quite up to the task of fulfilling my vision :)
23:58:09 <elliott> coppro: except that's not actually possible
23:58:30 <nooga> is there a better fuel for furnance than coal?
23:58:31 <elliott> olsner: You can't do my dream-but-one (not quite my dream) with Haskell 'cuz Template Haskell sucks bawlz.
23:58:42 <Sgeo> I remember seeing something about it being roughly the size of California
23:58:48 <elliott> nooga: but, coal + multiple furnaces is fast and economical
23:58:58 <elliott> nooga: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Furnace#Fuel_efficiency
23:59:01 <elliott> nooga: lava bucket is the most hardc0re
23:59:07 <Ilari> Heh... One blog is almost down... Presumably because highly popular podcast is about to be released today...
23:59:09 <elliott> "*Note that using a Lava Bucket will not only use the lava, but destroy the bucket as well."
23:59:15 <elliott> nooga: you can use stairs and jukeboxes and fences for no apparent reason
23:59:55 <olsner> elliott: no, obviously I'd have to write my own compiler or compile-time interpreter or whatever it ends up being