00:00:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:01:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: GET ON MC
00:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, if you haven't blown up Mt. Vorpal by "accident" I will be sorely disappointed.
00:02:39 <Sgeo> " (Note: You cannot farm cheap obsidian here, as the water evaporates!) "
00:08:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I am ready to blow things up.
00:08:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Can we make a 10x10x10 cube of TNT?
00:27:58 <augur> tell me of your favorite type system
00:30:11 <nooga> this cave is too big to light
00:30:11 <elliott> augur: system I\Xi is pretty nice
00:30:23 <nooga> but there are monsters
00:30:31 <Sgeo> elliott, people do mine obsidian: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=78446
00:33:21 <nooga> is it possible to make a lava column?
00:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't your scree x9nn?
00:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, on your macbook air
00:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, "ha ha my computer is better than yours"
00:44:04 <Vorpal> elliott, 1680x1050 > 1440x900
00:44:12 <Vorpal> elliott, thus in that aspect mine is better
00:44:20 <elliott> mine is better in every way
00:44:39 <Vorpal> elliott, also fewer usb ports
00:44:47 <elliott> Vorpal: the usb ports are better though
00:44:47 <Vorpal> elliott, mine has... 8 usb ports
00:44:51 <pikhq> Some Senators are stating that they will allow the US to default on its debts.
00:44:52 <elliott> also the fewer pixels are more zen
00:45:04 <Vorpal> elliott, how are your usb ports better? usb 3.0?
00:45:35 <pikhq> We do not know what will happen if that happens, except that it will be *fucking terrible*.
00:45:48 <elliott> Vorpal: but yes this has usb 3
00:45:54 <Vorpal> elliott, also you don't have hardware midi!
00:46:02 <Vorpal> elliott, or built in gbit ethernet
00:46:10 <elliott> Vorpal: nope, it's because steve jobs wrote the software midi himself and it sounds like angels peeing on your face
00:46:19 <elliott> the ethernet is 20gb duh that's why it has to be housed in a separate container
00:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, or 1 TB non-volatile storage space
00:46:23 <pikhq> Oh, and the dollar would probably instantly go into hyperinflation.
00:46:25 <elliott> because otherwise it would be breaking speed regulations
00:46:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I have more, I have petabytes
00:46:35 <elliott> Vorpal: they call it "the internet"
00:46:43 <elliott> it even has a wireless connection to it
00:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, so does my thinkpad
00:47:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Does it have USB 3.0?
00:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, no but it has more usb ports than you
00:47:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway aren't usb 3.0 ports taller?
00:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, or is that usb 4?
00:47:48 <elliott> Allow me to repeat: Err, no.
00:47:58 <elliott> Oh, it's actually USB 2.0.
00:48:06 <elliott> Vorpal: My USB ports are better because they're more USB porty than your USB ports.
00:48:12 <elliott> Quod erat demonstrandum, motherfucker.
00:48:56 <Vorpal> elliott, how are they more usb porty?
00:49:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Because they're more USB.
00:49:08 <Vorpal> elliott, and no I do not concede
00:49:12 <Vorpal> elliott, because I call that a lie
00:49:22 <elliott> Vorpal: You are wrong and your entire family is made out of meat.
00:49:57 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I'm a computer.
00:50:12 <elliott> Also: I FUCKING WISH MINECRAFTFORUM WOULD REMOVE THAT IRRITATING NOTCH SMILEY.
00:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott, solution: adblock it
00:50:43 <elliott> Idiots are the problem. :p
00:50:48 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) Install AdBlock
00:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, 1) already done... over two years ago
00:51:16 <Vorpal> elliott, how can you live with the ads?
00:51:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't browse sites that show me irritating ads.
00:51:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Bonus: I don't browse shitty sites.
00:51:38 <elliott> Or at least I browse less of them.
00:51:44 <Vorpal> elliott, same but google ads = irritating to me
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00:51:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Then you're just whiny.
00:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, they were okay when they only allowed text
00:52:11 <pikhq> I find AdBlock a need.
00:52:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but now I'm pretty sure I seen graphics in one
00:52:20 <pikhq> Essentially all ads are fucking annoying.
00:52:31 <pikhq> Google's text ads being the only exception.
00:52:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, they have non-text ads nowdays iirc?
00:52:51 <elliott> Let's put it this way: reddit has exactly two ad spots: the one at the top, which is commercially-posted links, almost all of which have comments and are often interesting; and the square ad on the right sidebar, which is _never_ irritating, never animated, and always subdued, and the admins keep it that way.
00:52:58 <elliott> Irritating ads get reported and removed extremely swiftly.
00:53:06 <pikhq> Static images aren't too bad; a minor irritant.
00:53:11 <elliott> Plus, often subreddits etc. are advertised in the right bar and it can be interesting.
00:53:16 <elliott> I see _no point_ in blocking those whatsoever.
00:53:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh yes I have gif animations set to "don't repeat"
00:53:29 <pikhq> Animated images vary from "somewhat irritating" to "OH HOLY FUCK I MUST KILL SOMEONE".
00:53:36 <elliott> Plus there's a good chance of them showing you a kitten instead of ads.
00:53:46 <pikhq> And Flash ads make me want to line up all advertisers before a firing squad.
00:53:53 <elliott> They put random pictures there not linked to anything on like 1/5th of all page loads.
00:53:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't have flash of course
00:53:59 <pikhq> After that noise I just installed AdBlock and called it a day.
00:54:12 <elliott> Vorpal lives in a world where not having Flash is "of course".
00:54:20 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:54:21 <elliott> Anyway, any website with Flash ads isn't worth the time of day.
00:54:25 <Vorpal> elliott, hey *you* don't have flash you said
00:54:28 <pikhq> Oh, and ones that appear *over* the page also make me want to wipe out humanity.
00:54:28 <elliott> So I just don't browse such websites for more than 10 seconds at a time.
00:54:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, they made that?
00:54:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but it's hardly "of course".
00:54:43 <elliott> Vorpal: They've "made that" since the 90s ...
00:54:47 <Vorpal> elliott, no, accept it.
00:55:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it /is/ of course. Welcome to the club. Accept your fate.
00:55:17 <pikhq> Also, video ads before a video are pretty annoying.
00:55:27 <pikhq> Especially when it's the same fucking ad for every video on a site.
00:55:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, don't tell me youtube have them or something?
00:55:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, the next time I want to play a Flash game or watch a weebl's stuff cartoon I'll happily install it.
00:55:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Youtube does.
00:55:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, it has ads before the video?
00:55:55 <nooga> this cave is never ending system of dark pits and halls
00:55:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, long live youtube-dk
00:56:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, youtube-dl for the win!
00:56:17 <pikhq> (mostly corporate-posted videos.)
00:56:20 <Vorpal> nooga, congrats on finding a large cavern system
00:56:30 <pikhq> "Because making a worse product is a good idea."
00:56:38 <Vorpal> nooga, it happens a few times in every game. Rarely does it naturally go down to lava lake level
00:56:52 <Vorpal> I had one game with two such. Near each other.
00:57:38 <zzo38> Someone said they would make up a new kind of poker game and make manga of it, and then I will be the non-Japanese people to play this game.
00:58:15 <elliott> Vorpal: youtube-dl is bullshit, just use a youtube->html5 thing.
00:58:19 <elliott> 359345743957395 of them exist
00:58:55 <Vorpal> elliott, why is it bull shit. It rocks if your connection can't handle highest definition available
00:59:18 <Vorpal> elliott, also I thought youtube had html5 naively nowdays?
00:59:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Natively only on videos without ads and it's slow as fuck.
00:59:48 <elliott> Also, having to wait ages to watch a stupid YouTube video defeats the entire point.
01:00:50 <zzo38> I don't use YouTube. It is full of wrong thing........
01:01:00 <pikhq> elliott: youtube-dl is actually a god-send for some videos.
01:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, you can watch while it downloads. Something like youtube-dl foo & sleep 10 && mplayer foo.flv works file
01:01:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I just use YouTube5 and it works perfectly.
01:01:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm happy for you. But don't call youtube-dl shit
01:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott, if you don't like it, so be it
01:01:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Or mplayer `youtube-dl -g`
01:01:58 <elliott> pikhq: mplayer is retarded, it never buffers enough.
01:02:00 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpEu5AZnTGM
01:02:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, that works too if it doesn't fuck up buffering as elliott said
01:02:06 <elliott> zzo38: Wrong thing is an ellipsis made out of 8 dots.
01:02:10 <pikhq> elliott: -cache set-the-buffer-in-kilobytes
01:02:10 <elliott> zzo38: It's three, man, it's three.
01:02:21 <elliott> pikhq: It seems to buffer, use the entire buffer, get some more, etc.
01:02:50 <zzo38> It is not ellipsis. It is a 8-dots-ellipsis.
01:03:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway don't complain about youtube-dl just because you don't use it. There are no technical problems with it as such.
01:03:13 <pikhq> Anyways, I find youtube-dl handy for things encoded with the wrong aspect ratio, black level too high, interlaced, or the like.
01:03:21 <elliott> zzo38: There is no such thing.
01:03:21 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it suck?
01:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you are not helpful in the least
01:03:50 <elliott> Vorpal: You see, it sucks.
01:03:52 <Vorpal> elliott, stop being a turd.
01:03:54 <pikhq> Also, batch download of something I don't want to watch *right now* but would like to watch later.
01:04:03 <Vorpal> elliott, either say /why/ it sucks or shut up.
01:04:08 <pikhq> elliott: Stop being a dumbass.
01:04:10 <Vorpal> elliott, no I don't. I used it once here.
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01:04:25 <elliott> pikhq: I'm actually just trying to irritate him which is working splendidly.
01:04:34 <pikhq> elliott: See, dumbass!
01:04:40 <elliott> How surprising. I bet it'll last for a whole ten minutes.
01:04:46 <elliott> pikhq: To be fair, it's Vorpal and he always deserves it.
01:04:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, just use /ignore as well :)
01:05:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nah, he's not pissing me off.
01:05:10 <zzo38> elliott: Now there is such thing as 8-dots-ellipsis because I had just used it.
01:05:23 <pikhq> Short-term stupidity is not enough to anger me, or even care too much about.
01:05:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, he is however a dumbass as usual
01:05:40 <zzo38> It is a different kind of punctuation than ellipsis because it is different use.
01:05:40 <pikhq> Funny, he's usually fairly intelligent.
01:05:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, well okay he has moments where he lacks that
01:05:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, quite often even
01:05:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, BUT these dumbass moments are quite regular.
01:06:03 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, yes, pieces of fecal matter.
01:06:21 <elliott> pikhq: What Vorpal fails to understand is that I optimise solely for irritating him
01:06:40 <elliott> P.S. Vorpal is wrong, he's used "turd" on here twice before.
01:07:19 * pikhq hates knowing that everything sucks.
01:07:26 <pikhq> I can't fix it! I'd have to rewrite everything!
01:07:50 <pikhq> Every: OS, browser, emulator, compiler, etc. sucks ass.
01:07:56 <pikhq> Especially emulators.
01:07:58 * Vorpal checks log to see if elliott became saner
01:08:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Turds turds turds.
01:08:15 <elliott> I know you've been logreading all this time.
01:08:18 <pikhq> I know of only a handful that even emulate the system in question well.
01:08:19 <zzo38> elliott: Is that a real sentence?
01:08:22 <elliott> (Please ignore me forever.)
01:08:30 <elliott> pikhq: You don't need to rewrite the OS, just use @.
01:08:38 <Vorpal> "17:06:40 <elliott> P.S. Vorpal is wrong, he's used "turd" on here twice before." <-- as a matter of fact, you used the word before too. And using a word more than once doesn't really mean you love it. It wasn't recently in any case.
01:08:40 <pikhq> Fewer still that have a usable UI.
01:08:45 <pikhq> Precisely one with readable code.
01:08:50 <pikhq> (it is, amazingly, in C++.)
01:09:13 <pikhq> Yes, readable C++.
01:09:50 * Sgeo WTFs at iCraft
01:09:52 <elliott> pikhq: @ @ @ best os ? best os
01:10:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is in readable C++ hm?
01:10:22 <Sgeo> Portals that just teleport to the same world?
01:10:28 <cheater99> the best operating system is plan 9
01:10:35 <elliott> Sgeo: that's cool people did Portal esque stuff with it
01:10:41 <pikhq> Seriously, look at it.
01:10:45 <elliott> cheater99: plan 9 is kinda lame.
01:10:52 <elliott> it's a major improvement on unix but still way, way too little.
01:10:56 <pikhq> It's, like, executable documentation of an SNES.
01:11:27 <cheater99> the problem with genera is it doesn't have plan9's gui
01:11:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, but does it use enhanced cweb? *ducks*
01:12:04 <Vorpal> * Sgeo WTFs at iCraft <-- ?
01:12:13 <elliott> cheater99: plan 9's gui is better than most GUIs but wildly substandard.
01:12:20 <elliott> cheater99: genera's UI was nicer because it was basically Emacs.
01:12:35 <elliott> Admittedly Plan 9's was more flexible.
01:12:36 <cheater99> i think the standard is the average, not the median
01:12:39 <elliott> (Genera makes up for that by using Lisp.)
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01:13:07 <zzo38> pikhq, but does it use CWEB or any variant of CWEB? *peoples*
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01:14:15 <cheater99> elliott: the reason why i like calculators made out of ttl logic is that you can't write a kernel for them, precluding the whole os debate.
01:14:24 <elliott> pikhq: today i uploaded an interlaced video to my sight which claims to be xhtml but is in fact subtly invalid on every page and sent out of text/html
01:14:58 <elliott> pikhq: it was about downloading a bunch of GoodSNES ROMs and playing them with ZSNES, which I praised as the best piece of software ever written
01:15:21 <elliott> pikhq: i also mocked bsnes for having ridiculous system requirements
01:16:12 <Vorpal> cheater99, why could you not make a calculator with TTL logic capable of running an OS?
01:16:21 <pikhq> cheater99: It's very good assembly code. Its emulation leaves much to be desired these days, though.
01:16:23 <pikhq> elliott: Fuck you.
01:16:25 <Vorpal> sure you would need more than the standard components
01:16:37 <elliott> pikhq: hahahahahahahaha successful trolling
01:16:55 <elliott> cheater99: zsnes is actually terrible.
01:17:07 <elliott> cheater99: it's basically a collection of hacks to make the most popular games work and nothing else.
01:17:21 <cheater99> elliott: well, my experience with it was very good.
01:17:29 <pikhq> elliott: Like most emulators, sadly.
01:17:31 <elliott> well, yes, just about any emulator can run $game.
01:17:49 <elliott> pikhq: except for MAME!111 except MAME is, like, actively developed to be as useless for actually playing things as possible.
01:17:55 <cheater99> it always felt very solid and fast and the options it provided always set it apart from other emulators
01:18:03 <zzo38> Make something like TRIP test but meant to test NES emulator, SNES emulator, GameBoy emulator, etc.
01:18:27 <pikhq> cheater99: Among other things, zsnes will change the emulated clock rate to work around bugs in its emulation.
01:18:28 <cheater99> Vorpal: because then it'd be more than a calculator
01:18:44 <Vorpal> cheater99, well but nothing in TTL logic precludes it
01:18:46 <cheater99> pikhq: yeah, emulators are always funny
01:18:58 <cheater99> Vorpal: no, but the word "calculators" does
01:19:03 <Vorpal> cheater99, also no. my TI-83+ is still a calculator. graphing calculator.
01:19:03 <pikhq> cheater99: Not all emulators are like that.
01:19:14 <Vorpal> cheater99, but it is a calculator
01:19:20 <pikhq> cheater99: Though bsnes has somewhat high system requirements, it's very good...
01:19:34 <elliott> cheater99: you can turn bsnes down btw to get something that runs fast with slightly lower compatibility
01:19:37 <elliott> still vastly more than zsnes though
01:19:46 <cheater99> i don't remember if i'd ever used bsnes
01:19:51 <Vorpal> cheater99, but then we seen that nothing in either "TTL logic" NOR "calculator" precludes being unable to have an OS
01:19:59 <cheater99> my current gripe is not having a working DS emulator
01:20:00 <elliott> cheater99: zsnes in and of itself is not a problem, although I don't know why you'd use it; the problem is people who advocate it blindly and malign things like bsnes for no reason.
01:20:01 <pikhq> elliott: bsnes's performance profile will accurately emulate all but 1 licensed game and all but a handful of demos.
01:20:16 <Vorpal> cheater99, thus follows that a calculator in TTL logic could have an OS
01:20:17 <elliott> cheater99: snes9x is better at "I just wanna play a game on this low-end machine", FWIW.
01:20:40 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVt9dgpxwF4&feature=related what's the point of making the stripes go all the way down?
01:20:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, it has some other profile than "performance"?
01:20:52 <pikhq> cheater99: Its accuracy profile emulates every SNES game accurately except for 2, and the ones that use the Satellaview expansion.
01:21:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Performance, compatibility, accuracy.
01:21:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, compat does what?
01:21:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, even more performance than performance?
01:21:38 <zzo38> Is there any sort of thing similar to TRIP test but is meant for testing accuracy of SNES emulation and so on?
01:21:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, also wait. performance: all but 1. accuracy all but 2?
01:21:49 <pikhq> No, it's lower performance than the performance profile, but it has a somewhat more accurate CPU and PPU emulation.
01:21:59 <elliott> Vorpal: it's an ascending scale
01:22:02 <elliott> performance does almost all shit
01:22:09 <elliott> compatibility does almost all + 1 (I think everything?)
01:22:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, wait, I forgot to mention the 2 that can't be emulated *at all* currently.
01:22:12 <cheater99> Vorpal: yes, but the tense i used was present, i.e. "i like calculators (...)", not "i would like calculators (...)"
01:22:13 <elliott> accuracy does EVERYTHING PERFECTLY EVER.
01:22:20 <elliott> Ascending scale of system requirements.
01:22:21 <cheater99> Vorpal: this means, existing calculators.
01:22:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: Those 2 use special chips in the cartridge which have not been reverse engineered yet.
01:22:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah the fun of those
01:23:01 <pikhq> It used to be 3, but SD Gundam GX's DSP chip got its program ROM dumped.
01:23:14 <cheater99> elliott: yes, snes9x always seemed faster i think
01:23:28 <cheater99> i remember not being able to play zsnes but being able to play snes9x at some point
01:23:35 <elliott> pikhq: omg i just realised, bsnes will be like awesome on this machine
01:23:44 <pikhq> Anyways, on top of those and the Satellaview, you get lower compatibility with the other profiles.
01:23:54 <coppro> this opponent thought he was so clever stuffing his king behind the pawn so the only way I could not stalemate was to lose the pawn
01:23:57 <elliott> [[The following two titles are unplayable, due to special on-cart DSPs whose program ROMs have not been extracted.
01:23:57 <elliott> Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 1 (uses ST-0011 co-processor)
01:23:58 <elliott> Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 2 (uses ST-0018 co-processor)
01:23:59 <elliott> Anything not in the above list is assumed to be fully compatible and bug-free.]]
01:24:07 <coppro> he lost 4 moves after taking the pawn to my rook
01:25:05 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, bsnes tries to build with g++-mp-4.5
01:25:36 <pikhq> The compatibility profile makes a graphical effect on 1 single game stop working and a couple demos stop working, and the performance profile *in addition* might not have pixel-accurate rendering of frames on other games.
01:25:51 <elliott> else ifneq ($(findstring Darwin,$(uname)),)
01:26:00 <elliott> else ifeq ($(platform),osx)
01:26:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, the latter has reasonable system requirements?
01:26:06 <elliott> pikhq: That's a good sign the stock gcc won't work, isn't it.
01:26:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, where reasonable means playable on a sempron 3300+ ;)
01:26:38 <elliott> Ha great, the gcc shipping with os x doesn't do c++0x.
01:27:01 <pikhq> Also, the performance profile can't do in-game debugging, and it doesn't emulate the bizarre requirement that you need to wait a few clock cycles before reading the result of a divide or multiply.
01:27:22 <elliott> pikhq: Is the NES perfectly emulated yet?
01:27:25 <zzo38> elliott: Does gcc ship with OS X now?
01:27:33 <elliott> zzo38: If you install the developer tools, yes.
01:27:34 <zzo38> I thought before you said it didn't.
01:27:41 <elliott> But not in the very stock install, no.
01:27:45 <pikhq> No official games care, but *many* ROM hacks will not do the necessary wait, because no other emulator handles that right.
01:27:48 <pikhq> elliott: Nestopia.
01:28:03 <elliott> pikhq: Is it reaaaaaally perfect though?
01:28:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, does anything depend on that bizzare requirement
01:28:59 <cheater99> elliott: well unless it can emulate jitter in the master clock it's not perfect emulation
01:29:05 <zzo38> There is also the category of homebrew games, in addition to official and ROM hacks.
01:29:12 <elliott> cheater99: Perfect assuming a flawless universe. :p
01:29:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: No. But if you don't account for it, the game won't work on real hardware.
01:29:15 <cheater99> i believe the master clock in the nes was a relaxation oscillator which was very funny
01:29:27 <elliott> cheater99: i.e., cycle exact.
01:29:35 <pikhq> Which is why bsnes emulates it.
01:29:42 <cheater99> slow down and speed up depending on what instructions were being run etc
01:29:49 <pikhq> The idea is that if the game runs on the accuracy profile, it will work on a real SNES.
01:30:01 <elliott> "The Accuracy core uses a slower dot-based emulation of the S-PPU rather than the traditional scanline-based method found in other SNES emulators. The Compatibility core uses the scanline-based rendering with code speedups that obfuscate the source code to an extent"
01:30:05 <elliott> Err, what a strange text from Wikipedia.
01:30:10 <elliott> That text links to the article on code obfuscation.
01:30:14 <elliott> What is it saying? "Performant code is ugly?"
01:30:25 <Vorpal> cheater99, isn't there one semi-decent?
01:30:28 <elliott> cheater99: Isn't NO$GBA meant to be popular. Or DeSmuME.
01:30:30 <pikhq> elliott: It's not obfuscated, it's just optimised rather than being clear documentation.
01:30:51 <pikhq> I'm not sure who wrote that line in the Wikipedia article, but eeew.
01:31:04 <cheater99> no$gba is terrible: no saves, games are halfway unplayable
01:31:07 <elliott> pikhq: OK, what simple systems aren't perfectly emulated. :p
01:31:42 <pikhq> elliott: Probably not the Gameboy Advance.
01:31:52 <pikhq> *Definitely* not the Playstation.
01:31:57 <elliott> pikhq: Oo, we have different definitions of simple, my friend.
01:32:04 <pikhq> And beyond that you're dealing with "insanely complex".
01:32:52 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, okay, lowering it a bit, then. Gameboy Advance not emulated well, nor, to my knowledge, is the Virtual Boy.
01:33:08 <elliott> pikhq: What about the original Gameboy?
01:33:28 <pikhq> elliott: Gambatte or KiGB are believed to be as accurate as humanly possible.
01:33:44 <elliott> cheater99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haOCJ8wL0OA
01:33:50 <pikhq> Gambatte is used in bsnes for its Super Gameboy emulation currently.
01:34:34 <pikhq> elliott: The Magnavox Odyssey!
01:34:54 <elliott> pikhq: Insufficiently interesting :P
01:35:00 <pikhq> It is, in fact, *completely* unemulated.
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01:35:37 <elliott> pikhq: Analogue circuitry. NO THANK YOU.
01:35:53 <elliott> pikhq: Cycle-exact emulation is therefore utterly impossible on a digital machine :P
01:36:13 <pikhq> elliott: Emulation of anything more recent than the SNES pretty much sucks ass.
01:36:18 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, is the C64 perfectly emulated?
01:36:32 <elliott> pikhq: VICE is pretty good, it's handled everything I've thrown at it and god knows C64 programmers do awful things to that machine. But?
01:37:43 <pikhq> elliott: VICE seems to not be a perfect emulator...
01:37:53 <cheater99> the voice at the end coming from offscreen sounds like zombo.com
01:38:11 <elliott> pikhq: The C64 is so complicated though, simply because of all the bugs and intricacies of implementation :P
01:38:20 <elliott> pikhq: yeah, probably easier to leave the VICE people to finish the job
01:38:25 <cheater99> GO FURTHER THAN YOU HAVE EVER GONE BEFORE. SEGA SATURN. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH SEGA SATURN.
01:38:30 <elliott> pikhq: Suggest another machine, then :p
01:38:48 <elliott> cheater99: You will have nightmares about Silver Head tonight.
01:38:53 <pikhq> hoxs64 appears to be perfect but DOESN'T HAVE SOURCE.
01:38:56 <elliott> Are you ready... for the future? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
01:38:57 <pikhq> elliott: Gameboy Advance.
01:39:08 <pikhq> It's probably simpler than the SNES to emulate.
01:39:13 <elliott> pikhq: Isn't the GBA pretty damn advanced though? :p
01:39:19 <cheater99> i thought i'd check out another promo
01:39:21 <elliott> pikhq: Lord knows the GBA emulators still get updated.
01:39:25 <cheater99> i clicked and thought it can't be that bad
01:39:40 <cheater99> after exactly 7 seconds i have realized how wrong i was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99iiUtPR-fM&NR=1
01:39:57 <pikhq> It's similar to the SNES in capability, except without all the things that make emulator authors cry.
01:40:01 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.hoxs64.net/files/hoxs64.txt "Hoxs64 V1.0.0 BETA (c) 2001 David Horrocks" ""Core 2 Duo 1.5Ghz or Athlon 2Ghz or Pentium4 3Ghz."
01:40:05 <cheater99> at the 12th second i have paused because i couldn't watch on.
01:40:45 <cheater99> elliott: in fact the Hoxs64 project is a secret prototype benchmark for future generations of computer processors
01:40:58 <pikhq> (16 MHz ARM, 4/8 MHz GB-Z80, *no fucking crazy PPU*, and NO SPECIAL CHIPS. AT ALL.)
01:41:02 <elliott> cheater99: oh god, that one you linked
01:41:04 <elliott> cheater99: is the same one
01:41:06 <Vorpal> there, timed ignore expired
01:41:08 <cheater99> as they are released to the public, his nda allows him to add more architectures to the compatibility list
01:41:18 <Vorpal> cheater99, that ad, I think I saw myst in it
01:42:07 <cheater99> elliott: oh damn, i hadn't even noticed
01:42:16 <cheater99> elliott: i just paused on alienhead
01:42:19 <elliott> cheater99: then it goes on to do all sorts of things, from skipping around
01:42:23 <elliott> worst advert or best advert?
01:42:39 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, *most* emulators "still in development" don't focus much on improving emulation accuracy.
01:42:40 <elliott> pikhq: I'll start a perfect emulation project for the GBA if you'll help. :p
01:42:43 <cheater99> THE INFINITE IS ATTAINABLE WITH SEGA SATURN
01:42:48 <elliott> Right. Which is why it sounds fun.
01:42:54 <elliott> And also _easier_; I can just implement the behaviour directly.
01:42:56 <pikhq> Amusingly. SNES9x actually does improve on accuracy.
01:43:04 <elliott> pikhq: BUT YOU HAVE TO HELP because I'm supremely laz.
01:43:08 <pikhq> IIRC they now use the same sound emulation as bsnes.
01:43:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> worst advert or best advert? <-- worst by far I ever seen
01:43:26 <elliott> cheater99: BTW, NO$GBA is _meant_ to be a pretty good DS emulator for actually playing games...
01:43:32 <elliott> Vorpal: But is it the worst or the _best_?
01:43:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I can imagine Lynch creating that.
01:43:50 <cheater99> elliott: but it doesn't work for XX XY which immediately disqualifies it
01:43:55 <cheater99> and you only find out when you get to scene 8.
01:44:26 <pikhq> elliott: FIrst and foremost, use Byuu's libco.
01:44:32 <Vorpal> elliott, the one with the woman looks like it would be against Swedish law. Gender discrimination.
01:44:33 <pikhq> elliott: That alone will save you a lot of effort.
01:44:43 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, as an *ad* in Sweden
01:44:46 <elliott> Vorpal: You mean the thing at the start?
01:44:52 <Vorpal> the thing at the start
01:44:53 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpA3RJyyVSk
01:44:58 <cheater99> vectorman and ecco were really cool
01:45:00 <elliott> Vorpal: What if it was immediately followed by the same thing with a man.
01:45:05 <cheater99> the one game i had never beat: the ooze
01:45:12 <Vorpal> elliott, doubt it would help if it was a man
01:45:29 <elliott> pikhq: Is libco anything but coroutines?
01:45:42 <elliott> pikhq: But there are hundreds of coroutine libs.
01:45:48 <Vorpal> elliott, also what was the target audience? kids?
01:45:50 <pikhq> libco's small and simple.
01:46:02 <elliott> Vorpal: 13-year-olds who think it's cool.
01:46:05 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNbx53ErzQ
01:46:06 <elliott> pikhq: X-D Look at the first post on http://byuu.org/.
01:46:15 <elliott> pikhq: I sure hope he's not planning to upgrade that to Advance.
01:46:15 <Vorpal> elliott, if kids they would have been into /deep shit/ in Sweden with such an ad.
01:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, because then stricter rules apply
01:46:27 <pikhq> elliott: He's not even intending to upgrade that to Color.
01:46:39 <Ilari> What about PC emulation (for playing those DOS games that no longer work well under modern OSes)?
01:46:50 <pikhq> elliott: It's meant to replace Gambatte for his Super Gameboy emulation.
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01:47:00 <elliott> Ilari: Bochs is pretty much cycle-accurate PC emulation.
01:47:04 <elliott> DOSBox is usually more useful, though.
01:47:20 <elliott> pikhq: So will you at least half-heartedly help with a GBA emulation project or do I have to be all alone :p
01:47:32 <pikhq> I may well help with it.
01:47:53 <pikhq> Though I wish I had a GBA flash cart so we could actually do hardware tests when necessary.
01:47:58 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, didn't you say you'd port bsnes' Qt UI to libsnes? Seems he's already done that and looking for a maintainer ...
01:48:16 <cheater99> "my megadrive, which is the japamanese original one"
01:48:21 <pikhq> And maintainers have already stepped up before I saw that. :P
01:48:22 <elliott> pikhq: Also, that would be nice. Aren't they still sold?
01:48:48 <elliott> "As a consequence, the bsnes download page has removed reference to the old bsnes/Qt v070 release. This site will only focus on pure accuracy at any cost. I am hoping that the future Qt maintainer can set up a page for casual SNES emulator users to peruse."
01:48:55 <elliott> Is he trying to... become an emulation academic?
01:49:10 <pikhq> Though it's possible later consoles actually change details.
01:49:19 <pikhq> elliott: He actually did not graduate from high school.
01:49:19 <elliott> pikhq: I mean the flash carts.
01:49:26 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, totally.
01:49:35 <pikhq> I have a GBA from launch.
01:49:45 <elliott> pikhq: I have an Advanced SP but not an original Advanced, but I'm faaairly sure they're absolutely identical internals-wise.
01:49:51 <elliott> Except with a BACKLIGHT which is a killer feature.
01:49:56 <pikhq> Probably, but not necessarily.
01:50:16 <pikhq> The SNES's smaller revision actually changed a lot of details, for instance.
01:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, perfect gba emulation? cool
01:50:35 <elliott> Oh, it's atually frontlit. Ha.
01:50:35 <Vorpal> perfect gameshark emulation too?
01:50:40 <elliott> pikhq: Eh, I can always eBay.
01:50:44 <pikhq> (it's effectively the same as a cheap SNES clone from China, as far as capabilities go.)
01:50:59 <pikhq> (yes, this means bsnes is more accurate than some "real" SNES's)
01:51:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Paaatches welcome, I have no idea about the GBA hardware so this will basically be a diary of learning in version control form :)
01:51:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well I have no GBA hardware
01:51:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so I'm pretty much useless on this
01:51:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Fairly cheap right now.
01:51:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The hardware won't help me *much*; I'll probably end up scouring the web for documentation to start with.
01:51:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, not sure I really care enough to get a gba
01:51:58 <elliott> Aw, but the GBA is a really nice cons... sort of.
01:52:06 <elliott> ...I can't actually think of many good non-Pokemon games for it really.
01:52:17 <pikhq> elliott: Sonic Advance was decent.
01:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, zelda's link awakening?
01:52:34 <elliott> Oh, yeah, the Zeldas are probably good, never got around to playing any Zelda games on GBA.
01:52:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh right. But I played it in visual boy advance?
01:52:43 <pikhq> Also, ports of good games.
01:52:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which also emulates the GB/GBC.
01:52:55 <pikhq> Inaccurately, but hey.
01:53:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah, so this won't work in your emulator then?
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01:53:11 <pikhq> It's actually not too much work to add GB or GBC emulation to a GBA emulator.
01:53:26 <Vorpal> well zelda is cool. Needs to be there and so on
01:53:26 <pikhq> The GBA uses the GB-Z80 for some sound effects.
01:53:55 <elliott> pikhq is just helping because I'm forcing him to.
01:54:13 <Vorpal> elliott, right got it. You are the figure head.
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01:54:55 * pikhq wonders how painful the ARM is.
01:55:37 <elliott> pikhq: o god, i have to emulate an arm?
01:55:48 <pikhq> elliott: Main CPU.
01:55:50 <elliott> Oh god, it's Thumb too. All new and modern.
01:55:54 <pikhq> It has a 16 MHz ARM.
01:56:20 <Vorpal> couldn't you reuse ARM code from qemu or something?
01:56:23 <elliott> iPod, Lego Mindstorms, Roomba...
01:56:32 <cheater99> what you really want to emulate is a directx8 pc for games
01:56:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt that's cycle-accurate.
01:56:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I beg to differ
01:56:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: qemu is very solidly not an accurate emulator.
01:56:40 <Vorpal> elliott, lego mindstorms NXT sure
01:56:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's like a half-JIT.
01:56:57 <elliott> You're the only person with a shitty enough university to care about mindstorms >:)
01:57:00 <Vorpal> elliott, but RCX used a H8300
01:57:10 <elliott> pikhq: Maaybe not the GBA then... ARM sounds kinda painful.
01:57:11 <nooga> ennough with this mc
01:57:16 <pikhq> Probably works just fine for emulating a Linux system, but game consoles tend to care about a lot of annoying details.
01:57:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hey this I care about due to my free time
01:57:22 <elliott> nooga: buy it and you can get on our server :p
01:57:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Ahh, so you're just hopeless then!
01:57:36 <Vorpal> elliott, elliott anyway RCX has a Hitachi H8300
01:57:53 <Vorpal> elliott, they sold the division
01:58:00 <coppro> I can't think of what though
01:58:03 <Vorpal> elliott, nvidia cpus next
01:58:06 <elliott> coppro: HELP ME WRITE A PERFECT GBA EMULATOR.
01:58:11 <coppro> which is weird because I'm pretty sure it's like one thing
01:58:25 <coppro> ima go one-line more project euler in Haskell
01:58:26 <elliott> Vorpal: ATI CPUs, yes; well, AMD Vision CPUs, which will just be called AMD CPUs.
01:58:43 <pikhq> I actually bet the Atari is a royal pain to emulate.
01:58:46 <elliott> coppro: Q: What do J users call the activity that other languages' users call "one-lining"? A: Half-charactering.
01:58:49 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H8_Family
01:58:58 <Vorpal> elliott, "H8 is the name of a large family of 8-bit and 16-bit microcontrollers made by Renesas Technology, originating in the early 1990s within Hitachi Semiconductor and still actively evolving as of 2006."
01:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe they were Hitachi when the first RCX were produced
01:59:34 <Vorpal> and then later they become Renesas for later model RCX
01:59:45 <Vorpal> I'm not about to pry my two RCX open to check though
01:59:46 <elliott> Renesas. Sounds terrorist.
02:00:12 <cheater99> mr spock is having a seizure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvgteRnaIhA&feature=related
02:00:35 <elliott> pikhq: Before I get started on any of this though, I need to get Ubuntu installed.
02:00:43 <pikhq> Especially as almost every game more advanced than Pong was actually exploiting unintended hardware features.
02:00:50 <elliott> pikhq: Look at what OS X gives me:
02:00:50 <cheater99> say what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytwbGVExWi8&feature=related
02:00:52 <elliott> pikhq: i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1 (GCC) 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5664)
02:01:03 <elliott> pikhq: Did I mention you have to use -fnested-functions to get nested functions? For no reason?
02:01:10 <coppro> elliott: am I a bad person: triangles n = (:) <*> (:[]) . (+1)
02:01:17 <elliott> coppro: haha they're smiling
02:01:56 <pikhq> Heck, displaying more than 2 sprites on the 2600 required using hardware bugs.
02:01:57 <elliott> 02:01 elliott: @pl ((:) <*> (:[])) . (+1)
02:01:57 <elliott> 02:01 lambdabot: ((:) <*> return) . (1 +)
02:02:00 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, isn't .|. bitwise or in haskell?
02:02:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Umm, if you import Data.Bits I think.
02:02:26 <elliott> pikhq: Any console ideas that don't involve ARM?
02:02:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it always looked so dirty to me :P
02:02:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what about GBC?
02:02:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yeah, you're doing bitwise manipulations, you should feel dirt.
02:02:54 <elliott> Vorpal: GBC has been done perfectly, I believe.
02:03:09 <elliott> pikhq: Fuck you, man, N64 is where high-level emulators got INVENTED :P
02:03:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: 100% game and demo compatibility has been achieved by two *different* emulators for the GBC.
02:03:28 <Ilari> Proper N64 rerecording emulation would be pretty big deal...
02:03:41 <Vorpal> Ilari, quite. Will you help elliott on this?
02:03:44 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, because nobody bothered emulating the RDP right.
02:03:49 <elliott> Ilari: Don't believe his lies.
02:03:53 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not doing N64. Ever.
02:04:02 <cheater99> i want one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXHM1I8wgtc&feature=related
02:04:17 <pikhq> Hmm. I'm actually unsure about the Sega family of systems.
02:04:31 <elliott> Not even if the Singularity comes and we all get infinite lifespans to spend how I wish, and I perform every other possible action such that each action in the set can be performed in a time span of 700 billion years or less,
02:04:32 <pikhq> (Master System/Genesis/Game Gear)
02:04:40 <elliott> not even then will I write a cycle-accurate N64 emulator.
02:04:41 <Ilari> As would be proper rerecording emulation of Sega Saturn or Sega Dreamcast...
02:04:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, which one was RDP then?
02:05:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: You could upload microcode to it, and many games did this.
02:05:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: N64 emulators just emulate the behavior of the microcode instead.
02:05:35 <elliott> Not only will a metal ball the size of the sun be worn down by solar winds before I emulate the N64, but entire universes will be simulated from start to finish such that if each universe took up a quark it would result in a ball the size of the sun when packed together with no empty space between them at all.
02:05:48 <elliott> And even then, I will not write a cycle-accurate Nintendo 64 emulator.
02:05:49 <pikhq> This works for a *large* number of games (because few people actually *wrote* microcode), but quite a few get left out.
02:05:54 <elliott> pikhq: DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET
02:06:10 <elliott> OR AM I NOT BEING QUITE EXPRESSIVE ENOUGH
02:06:19 <pikhq> elliott: Cycle-accurate might be unneeded.
02:06:47 <elliott> pikhq: Even if your mother loses SO MUCH WEIGHT that she's actually NO LONGER CLASSED AS OBESE — which would take longer than the universe will last — I will not write a Nintendo 64 emulator.
02:06:55 <elliott> ...okay, maybe if /that/ much time passes I will.
02:07:33 <cheater99> susan plays streets of rage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyaiGLITrN8&feature=related
02:07:35 <pikhq> I do not know of an accurate emulator for the Genesis.
02:07:44 <elliott> pikhq: I do not know of any good games for the Genesis.
02:07:51 <pikhq> elliott: Sonic Sonic Sonic!
02:08:21 <pikhq> Though that would be a *royal* pain if you want to emulate the 32x or the CD as well.
02:08:23 <cheater99> elliott: you should make an emulator that JUST runs sonic 1/2/3/k
02:08:37 <elliott> I want to write an emulator that JUST runs the 8-bit Sonic.
02:08:40 <pikhq> Easy if you want to emulate the Game Gear or the Master System, or the SG-1000...
02:08:45 <elliott> Before they decided that the best way to market consoles was to make him run REALLY FAST.
02:08:49 <elliott> (Stupidest decision ever?)
02:09:16 <pikhq> (Sega's systems before the Saturn were based around the same hardware)
02:09:27 <elliott> I don't actually /like/ most of the Sonic games.
02:09:36 <pikhq> (many of them were even electrically compatible)
02:09:44 <elliott> When you reduce the majority of play to going really fast, you don't have any game left.
02:10:28 <elliott> (see http://newbreview.com/2010/07/22/retro-fix-sonic-the-hedgehog-8-bit/, btw)
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02:11:24 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe I'll perfectly emulate a seriously fucked up fictional system whose only game is I Wanna Be The Guy.
02:11:42 <coppro> but I do wanna be the guy
02:12:01 <elliott> pikhq: Perhaps I'll design my own architecture based on the IWBTG executable. "Why, this complicated Windows API call? Looks like a really long CPU instruction to me!"
02:12:11 <elliott> So that the .exe works as a ROM. :p
02:13:13 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBVn0g7fZTU&feature=related WTF
02:13:18 <Sgeo> "Dig straight down"
02:13:31 <Ilari> Good PC rerecording emulation would also be quite a deal (so far PC rerecording emulation is pretty much garbage).
02:13:43 <elliott> Sgeo: Digging straight down is not deadly if you're, say, on the surface and just doing it for a few blocks ...
02:14:04 <pikhq> Ilari: Rerecording is actually pretty easy if you've got cycle-accurate emulation.
02:14:22 <pikhq> You pretty much just need the ability to serialise after a clock cycle, and restore that.
02:14:38 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2mpcssg274&feature=related < 1:20
02:14:44 <elliott> Ilari: How is that Nethack TAS going btw?
02:14:57 <pikhq> Of course, the PC is freaking painful to do cycle-accurately.
02:15:04 <pikhq> Everything changes from system to system!
02:15:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Holy shit this is overcomplicated.
02:16:10 <Ilari> elliott: Seems like turn 317, fighting The Wizard of Yendor.
02:16:13 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Of course, the PC is freaking painful to do cycle-accurately. <pikhq> Everything changes from system to system! <-- then you probably don't need it. Since nothing will assume cycle accurate anyway
02:16:21 <elliott> Ilari: RNG hackery I presume? :)
02:16:34 <elliott> Vorpal: You need it for perfect TASing.
02:16:44 <elliott> Since the goal is basically "take as few cycles as possible".
02:16:52 <Vorpal> elliott, perfect in the sense it could not be done on a real machine?
02:17:16 <pikhq> Well, it may be needed, but only for early PC games.
02:17:24 <pikhq> Like, the original IBM PC.
02:17:44 <elliott> Vorpal: That applies to all TASes, pretty much.
02:17:51 <elliott> cheater99: done, it's called emacs
02:18:16 <cheater99> elliott: what about emulating an lcd game?
02:19:37 <elliott> I'll emulate anything simpler than an ARM :P
02:20:03 <pikhq> elliott: Atari 2600?
02:20:05 <elliott> cheater99: bit pointless :P
02:20:16 <elliott> pikhq: I thought you just said that wast he land of *insane* hardware glithces.
02:20:21 <Sgeo> elliott, I pretty much stopped watching, got distracted
02:20:28 <pikhq> elliott: *And* NTSC artifacts!
02:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, why not make a cycle accurate calculator emulator? Say, TI-82 or some such
02:20:53 <pikhq> Also, no framebuffer.
02:20:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Aren't there already?
02:20:56 <Vorpal> elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculator_gaming
02:21:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know if they are cycle accurate
02:21:05 <elliott> I know perfectly well tyvm
02:21:20 <elliott> If people arnen't stupid enough they will understand that it is FAKE
02:21:27 <cheater99> elliott: why is arm so difficult to emulate?
02:21:34 <elliott> cheater99: it's just a complicated normalarchitecture
02:22:02 <pikhq> cheater99: Some newer consoles are probably worse than just dealing with the ARM, though.
02:22:14 <pikhq> Namely, ones where you need to emulate a large number of CPUs.
02:22:23 <pikhq> (looking at *you*, Sony.)
02:22:23 <elliott> Sgeo: dunno if it is fake though
02:22:31 <elliott> Sgeo: it looks real enough, but it'd be one-use
02:22:32 <cheater99> ds is just arm7 and arm9 or something like that
02:22:44 <Sgeo> elliott, I didn't even watch it
02:22:50 <Sgeo> I'm talking to someone >.>
02:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott, generic cycle accurate ARM emulator. Then you can just add on some custom code for each of the ARM products. And you done lots of different consoles and tools
02:23:27 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHMiJFfsEj4&NR=1
02:23:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do a roomba emulator even (not sure why though!)
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02:23:36 <elliott> Vorpal: ROOMBA EMULATOR OMG YES
02:23:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd put it in horrible mazes and watch it suffer.
02:23:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I knew you would love that
02:23:54 <elliott> And then put it in a huge clean room with no obstacles because I feel sorry for it.
02:24:00 <elliott> cheater99: a robot that cleans.
02:24:10 <pikhq> cheater99: And the Gameboy is "just" an ARM7 and a GB-Z80.
02:24:23 <pikhq> Erm, Gameboy Advance.
02:24:30 <pikhq> The Gameboy is just a GB-Z80.
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02:24:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about GBC?
02:24:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: Twice the clock rate, same CPU.
02:26:06 <elliott> pikhq: Are you suuuure the GBC is cycle-perfected?
02:27:16 <elliott> coppro: emulated perfectly to cycle granularity
02:29:12 <Sgeo> Yay, we scheduled a day
02:30:21 <elliott> Sgeo: Stop alluding to Alluded-To.
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02:32:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> coppro: emulated perfectly to cycle granularity <-- what, no more
02:32:26 <Vorpal> elliott, emulate the actual transistors
02:32:33 <Vorpal> elliott, with quantum noise!
02:32:53 <cheater99> Vorpal: what about background radiation
02:32:59 <Vorpal> cheater99, that too of course
02:33:01 <elliott> variable: cycle-perfect emulation
02:33:09 <elliott> variable: i.e., perfect emulation down to the cycle level of every internal piece of hardware
02:33:27 <Vorpal> cheater99, and thermal noise of course
02:33:27 <zzo38> Nintendo DS is ARM7 and ARM9. Official games all use the standard ARM7 code, though. Homebrew games will use their own ARM7 codes, so you will need to emulate the ARM7 if you want to emulate homebrew Nintendo DS programs.
02:34:05 * Sgeo lols at "quckly"
02:34:15 <Sgeo> It's not as though the flow of water will stop
02:34:23 <elliott> cheater99: no, way too much work
02:34:40 <cheater99> elliott: you want to make an XX XY emulator
02:35:58 <zzo38> I wrote a GameBoy game once, I had to add a extra VBLANK to make it work on Goomba emulator
02:36:46 <variable> { I have 23 second lag now - so my questions/comments may seem a bit off - sorry }
02:37:44 <cheater99> elliott: make a (working and usable) eniac emulator
02:38:15 <cheater99> elliott: make a (working and usable) eniac emulator IN MINECRAFT
02:38:28 <elliott> cheater99: i've played the tic-tac-toe game on an eniac emulator iirc
02:38:54 <pikhq> elliott: Gambatte and KiGB do so.
02:38:55 <variable> cheater99, don't take a productive member of society and encourage him to play minecraft
02:39:06 <cheater99> variable: encourage? he needs no encouragement
02:39:17 <elliott> variable: Dude, I already play Minecraft :P
02:39:26 <elliott> And I'm nooooot a productive member of society except by really strange definitions.
02:39:34 <pikhq> elliott: With a cycle-accurate emulation, you can do mode 7-like effects on there.
02:39:49 <elliott> WHY HAS EVERYONE GOT TO PLACES BEFORE I GET TO PLACES
02:39:56 <pikhq> Yes, with hardware that's on par with the NES.
02:40:57 <pikhq> (note: unintended feature)
02:41:02 <cheater99> elliott: i thought GBC wasn't very different from GB
02:41:22 <zzo38> cheater99: No it is basically the same. Just it is color
02:41:29 <pikhq> zzo38: And double clock-rate.
02:41:42 <pikhq> Which is fairly easy to account for.
02:41:43 <zzo38> pikhq: It supports double clock-rate but you can switch it at run-time
02:41:50 <cheater99> yea, so why would gbc be that different from gb to warrant: <elliott> GB, sure, but GBC? ?
02:42:09 <elliott> cheater99: because the extra bits might not be perfect yet! :P
02:42:13 <pikhq> GBC emulation comes almost for free from GB emulation.
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02:42:34 <elliott> pikhq: [[Lastly, there was the case of Speedy Gonzales. In level 6-1, there is a switch that needs to be hit to finish the level. Up until recently, this game would lock up any emulator when it was hit. You can probably imagine why this was overlooked, but it's quite a big deal to play a game that long and instantly lose all of your progress due to an emulation bug. In this case, it actually turns out to be a bug in the game itself. B
02:42:35 <elliott> ut as it works on hardware, it needs to work under emulation as well. It is reading from an unmapped memory address, and will not break out of this loop until it gets the value it wants. As it turns out, after so many tests, eventually the read will happen immediately after an HDMA transfer, which will update the S-CPU's memory data register, giving the game the value it needs to break out of the loop.]]
02:42:50 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, yes he is.
02:43:04 <elliott> byuu: we won't hold it against you if you just lie down for a day. srsly.
02:43:31 <pikhq> elliott: He actually doesn't do *too* much of the hardware testing.
02:43:47 <pikhq> Though his dump-all-SNES-games project is positively crazy.
02:43:55 <pikhq> In the awesome sort of way, of course.
02:44:04 <elliott> [[blargg's S-DSP core is known to be 100% bit-perfect to real hardware, with the one exception that the mute command is instant, and does not exhibit a very fast fade-out effect.]]
02:44:16 <elliott> TRASH IT OUT AND WRITE A NEW ONE
02:44:23 <pikhq> elliott: Analog...
02:45:11 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EMX8qIgWOs
02:46:37 <elliott> pikhq: Srsly, computers should come with reprogrammable analogue hardware. :D
02:46:42 <cheater99> elliott: make a cycle accurate emulation of a DX-7 with the option of scaling it up to 64 fs
02:46:57 <elliott> cheater99: Those sound effects are fake, right?
02:47:01 <elliott> Or is it actaully hooked up to a speaker?
02:47:06 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know how to make up such computer hardware?
02:47:09 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know who's crazy? Dr. Decapitator.
02:47:26 <elliott> pikhq: Anyone who purports to be a doctor and then decapitates people is crazy.
02:47:33 <elliott> cheater99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMmUciXRMaI&feature=related realistic
02:47:45 <pikhq> elliott: He decaps chips for MAME, and has been doing so for bsnes as well.
02:48:10 <elliott> pikhq: I should write a CYCLE-ACCURATE emulator of the MT-32.
02:48:13 <elliott> pikhq: Note: The MT-32 is analogue.
02:48:18 <cheater99> i don't think there's even any sort of pcm sound on the ti 83
02:48:23 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously, why don't computers come with reprogrammable analogue.
02:48:30 <elliott> cheater99: just generate raw pcm data and send it over a wire :D
02:48:31 <pikhq> se'hųku ni site, ne.
02:48:44 <pikhq> Commit suicide, right?
02:48:46 <zzo38> I think the TI-83 has no built-in sound at all (although you could connect an external speaker)
02:49:18 <pikhq> zzo38: It had a TSR jack connected to a UART...
02:49:27 <pikhq> zzo38: You could *probably* get square wave audio out of there.
02:49:47 <cheater99> and with PWM, you could totally emulate normal sound
02:49:53 <zzo38> pikhq: If you have such a calculator, could you try that?
02:49:54 <cheater99> what frequency did the uart work at?
02:50:57 <elliott> [[The past three years have been amazing. I know that SNES emulation can never be 100% perfect, but I finally feel that I have reached a point where I could walk away from bsnes and feel that my job is done. That the SNES hardware is very well preserved for future generations.]]
02:51:01 <elliott> I bet he questions that not-100% thing now.
02:51:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> zzo38: You could *probably* get square wave audio out of there. <-- been done
02:51:26 <Vorpal> I have a TI-83+ but they connector is not a normal speaker connector I think
02:51:41 <pikhq> Uh, 9600 kbit/s. Knowing how serial works, that gets you... 76.8 MHz audio.
02:51:55 <pikhq> 76.8 MHz, 1 bit audio.
02:52:23 <elliott> pikhq: Ha. MAME SNES emulation is worse than something called "ESNES".
02:52:26 <pikhq> Which is still enough for *recognisable* audio.
02:52:28 <zzo38> Is that a good enough audio to make a telephone noise?
02:52:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, TI-83/83+ has crazy cable
02:52:59 <cheater99> it's sort of like 16 khz 4 bit audio
02:53:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, the computer link had to include a PIC to deal with translating to something that the computer could use
02:53:31 <cheater99> which is going to go up to say 8 khz
02:53:38 <cheater99> so you could do speech... very nasty speech
02:54:13 <elliott> [[Oh, and believe it or not, until recently MAME/MESS used floating point for their synchronization counters.]]
02:54:22 <Vorpal> cheater99, you could do chiptune style music
02:54:30 <elliott> pikhq: 76.8 kHz is enough for anything isn't it?
02:54:41 <pikhq> Telephone is generally done with 8 kHz, 8-bit mu-law audio.
02:54:49 <cheater99> elliott: make a working mortal kombat trilogy arcade emulator, cycle-accurate
02:55:04 <pikhq> But yeah, you could *definitely* get workable audio out of there.
02:55:34 <cheater99> pikhq: yeah, it could definitely work
02:55:38 <cheater99> pikhq: someone would have to try it
02:55:54 <elliott> it would be cool if someone did that
02:55:57 <elliott> shame it hasn't happened yet
02:56:10 <cheater99> elliott: maybe it's just a discovery waiting to happen??
02:56:16 <elliott> cheater99: Let's try it out!
02:56:18 <cheater99> elliott: maybe the ti 83 is actually skynet!
02:56:21 <zzo38> I wrote a program once on Linux that generates a lot of telephone noises, including: arbitrary frequency, red box, blue box, silver box, dial tone, busy signal, special information tones, ...
02:56:24 <elliott> I wonder if it IS possible.
02:56:36 <cheater99> and it's waiting for us to plug earphones into the port... a digital port, connected directly to our crania
02:57:47 <pikhq> elliott: There are a few things that could be more accurately emulated on the SNES, but not *much*.
02:58:07 <elliott> pikhq: That mute-thing strikes me as one.
02:58:15 <elliott> It would be impossible to perfectly emulate the analogue behaviour of the fast fadeout.
02:58:28 <pikhq> The Cx4, used by the Megaman X2 and X3, for instance.
02:58:29 <elliott> cheater99: No, anything that isn't strictly digital.
02:58:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
02:58:37 <cheater99> elliott: it's just a simple RLC that can be easily emulated
02:58:38 <pikhq> Currently, bsnes uses a very accurate HLE.
02:58:46 <cheater99> and is easily emulated in thousands of existing softwares
02:58:48 <elliott> cheater99: I don't think a Turing machine can perfectly emulate an analogue sound effect.
02:58:51 <elliott> cheater99: Note *perfectly*.
02:58:53 <elliott> Yes, it can do it very well.
02:59:14 <elliott> cheater99: Thus 100% SNES emulation is impossible with digital computing.
02:59:14 <cheater99> but emulation is different from reproduction
02:59:21 <elliott> cheater99: bsnes is very much a reproducer.
02:59:29 <pikhq> Until recently, the DSPs were likewise.
02:59:29 <elliott> Yes, also called perfect emulation.
02:59:45 <cheater99> /dev/urandom is a 100% snes emulator, for my emulation goal
02:59:59 <elliott> cheater99: emulation is not used in that way.
03:00:02 <elliott> when referring to console emulation.
03:00:06 <elliott> it is used to mean reproduction.
03:00:12 <elliott> usually very inaccurate reproduction.
03:00:15 <pikhq> And the ST-0011 and ST-0010 are completely unemulated.
03:00:36 <pikhq> The ST-0011 is partially emulated via HLE.
03:00:50 <cheater99> elliott: i still say the DX 7 should be your goal
03:01:04 <elliott> cheater99: i don't like synths :/
03:01:08 <cheater99> (the fm part is actually very intricate)
03:01:12 <elliott> I might emulate an SK-1 :)
03:01:31 <cheater99> it's pretty much a huge computer with sound output
03:02:00 <pikhq> Also, the Satellaview is effectively impossible to emulate.
03:02:05 * elliott listens to Shnabubula's performance of All Blues.
03:02:12 <pikhq> (due to having been unusable for years now)
03:02:40 <cheater99> http://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sync.jpg
03:02:52 <elliott> Y TOO BUSY LISTENING TO JAZZ
03:03:10 <cheater99> notice huge ribbon cable connecting it to keyboard
03:03:11 <elliott> the fairlight cmi is insane isn't it
03:03:12 <pikhq> Well, if you have a TARDIs it'd be easy.
03:03:35 <pikhq> In which case you could even get a *dump* of all of the games for it.
03:03:38 <cheater99> http://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/fmsynth.jpg THREE DEE!
03:03:42 <pikhq> (which is likewise impossible)
03:03:54 <cheater99> elliott: meh, the fairlight ain't so hot
03:03:59 <elliott> pikhq: what games don't exist any more?
03:04:46 <pikhq> elliott: The games were downloaded via satellite and stored on a flash cart.
03:05:18 <pikhq> A dump can *only* exist if someone happened to keep it from when it was broadcast.
03:05:35 <pikhq> Also, some of the games actually had voice acting via *live broadcast*.
03:05:45 <zzo38> I have a different kind of emulation idea. You have in the emulator, emulation of various processors, video units, audio units, input units. etc. And then the file it loads indicates which ones are used and what memory mapping and a few other options.
03:05:46 <cheater99> Despite a slow system clock the processor was extremely efficient at moving data around (a one cycle multiply/divide math's co-processor being very advanced for the time) so efficient in fact, that NASA used the computer on board space craft resulting in the processor being classed as classified computer equipment, not to be sold to countries outside the COCAM agreement and no technical details to be distributed outside of the United Sta
03:05:47 <cheater99> tes. NED also developed their own Operating System, Scientific XP/L, again bypassing limitations of available Operating Systems. So with this dedicated processor it was possible to add new hardware as and when it became available, in some cases the additions enhancing the processor by sharing the workload with it.
03:05:57 <cheater99> if that's not worthy of emulation what is
03:05:58 <pikhq> zzo38: bsnes does this.
03:06:09 <elliott> 03:05 pikhq: Also, some of the games actually had voice acting via *live broadcast*.
03:06:12 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, except it only handles the SNES, but hey.
03:06:15 <elliott> zzo38: yeah, bsnes does that.
03:06:34 <elliott> cheater99: http://ns2.opencollective.cc/music/Shnabubula/All+Blues+(VRC6)/
03:06:38 <elliott> STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND LISTEN TO THIS
03:06:55 <cheater99> Sorry, we are unable to find the page you've requested. If you've typed the URL yourself, check for any spelling mistakes you might have made. If you've followed a broken link, bla bla bla. Please click back or visit our homepage at 8bc.org.
03:07:03 <pikhq> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Satellaview_broadcasts If it has SoundLink support, it's literally impossible to reproduce the game without a time machine.
03:07:11 <elliott> cheater99: http://8bc.org/music/Shnabubula/All+Blues+(VRC6)/
03:07:24 <pikhq> Even *if* you have the ROM.
03:07:30 <elliott> miles davis would have approved
03:07:57 <elliott> cheater99: have you heard it before or did you make that judgement based on three seconds :-P
03:08:02 <zzo38> I am thinking something a bit different. A more general form. And the loaded file, instead of the ROM file, is a collection file. You then convert it for the official or homebrew game or whatever you run.
03:08:38 <cheater99> i heard it before in the normal form.. and i made that judgement based on three seconds
03:09:09 <cheater99> elliott: do you know of the midibox sid?
03:09:27 <elliott> no, but it's probably worse than e.g. the hardsid.
03:09:42 <zzo38> cheater99: What is a midibox sid?
03:09:44 <elliott> cheater99: what, than the studio edition?
03:09:49 <elliott> cheater99: http://www.hardsid.com/hardsid_4u.php
03:09:57 <cheater99> it has the best update rate for the sid
03:10:12 <elliott> cheater99: 8 khz isn't so bad. :p
03:10:41 <cheater99> as opposed to hardsid being a non-interactive box
03:10:44 <elliott> just buy a c64 and wire up data ports to it, it's the only way to get the real sound
03:10:47 <cheater99> where you point and click and go to sleep
03:11:54 <cheater99> the midibox sid is compatible with any operating system that can access a UART
03:12:30 <elliott> cheater99: the UART is just the politically correct version of the LART.
03:12:33 <cheater99> so it is also compatible with any operating system that can somehow communicate with ethernet
03:13:04 <cheater99> LART is a single-board computer (SBC) designed by staff of the University of Delft/Netherlands. The creators advertise complete layout by means of CAD files ...
03:13:52 <cheater99> and i hung out with the guy who made it at his flat :p we did a rock-out nite with some other dudes
03:14:20 <zzo38> Do you think 31 character for each original and destination word forms is enough for plural making rules?
03:14:56 <cheater99> not if you're talking about airplanes
03:15:37 <zzo38> elliott: What about airplanes?
03:15:51 <zzo38> cheater99: What does this have to do with airplanes?
03:16:08 <cheater99> there was a volcano with a long name obscuring flights lately
03:19:00 <cheater99> now i want to hear freddie freeloader done like this
03:19:07 <elliott> cheater99: http://kindofbloop.com/
03:19:11 <elliott> cheater99: it's from a whole remake of the album
03:19:22 <elliott> pirating it works but it's kind of a dick since the royalties cost $$$$loads
03:19:28 <cheater99> is $5 some sort of memory address?
03:19:29 <elliott> brought to you by http://waxy.org/
03:19:44 <elliott> http://kindofbloop.com/samples/02_freddie_freeloader_sample.mp3 :p
03:20:34 <elliott> "Kind of Bloop is available for digital download in high-quality MP3 and FLAC format for $5.00, cheap."
03:20:37 <elliott> cheater99: it's just the sample /shrug
03:20:44 <elliott> i remember when it was still in Kickstarter phase
03:20:47 <cheater99> elliott: i know, but i need the flac
03:20:49 <elliott> the royalties cost ridiculous amounts
03:20:55 <elliott> cheater99: for the _30 second preview_?
03:21:01 <elliott> cheater99: the All Blues you listened to was mp3.
03:21:14 <cheater99> elliott: they should've made it free
03:21:23 <elliott> cheater99: impossible, with the costs
03:21:38 <elliott> find the blog posts yourself, i'm too lazy
03:21:58 <elliott> i don't remember exactly. it's stupid music industry bullshit
03:22:00 <elliott> this is the kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/waxpancake/kind-of-bloop-an-8-bit-tribute-to-miles-davis
03:22:05 <cheater99> you can't own/copyright/patent a MELODY
03:22:07 <elliott> To create this album, I hope to raise $2,000 to pay royalties, pay the artists, and print CDs. Legally releasing cover songs requires paying mechanical licenses to the song publishers through the Harry Fox Agency, totaling about $420 for every 250 downloads and a $75 processing fee. I'll be using the remainder to print a very limited run of CDs for Kickstarter backers, and split the rest evenly among the five musicians for their pains
03:22:07 <elliott> taking work. (This is a labor of love for me, so I won't be keeping a dime.)
03:22:09 <pikhq> cheater99: BTW, that was Eyjafjallajökull.
03:22:21 <cheater99> hence, any new performance is a new thing.
03:22:33 <elliott> cheater99: your opinions are irrelevant in the face of what is actually the case.
03:23:25 * Sgeo hopes that what cheater99 said is true
03:23:33 <cheater99> i'm not fully sure on the legal aspect of this
03:23:37 <elliott> Sgeo: it is, as demonstrated by my quote, false.
03:23:42 <elliott> copyright law is fucked up, that is obvious and irrelevant.
03:23:44 <Sgeo> If not, I've participated in copyright infringement, as so has AWLD
03:23:45 <pikhq> Odd word construction courtesy of being a fairly conservative North Germanic language.
03:23:47 <elliott> what is relevant is what is the actual case
03:23:55 <elliott> Sgeo: OH GOD COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
03:23:56 <cheater99> but i think there's some confusion in that post.
03:24:12 <Sgeo> elliott, companies should be more careful than individuals
03:24:26 <elliott> cheater99: andy baio /has/ been at this for _rather_ a long time
03:24:27 <cheater99> elliott: that's ok, since we have separate consciousnae
03:25:08 <elliott> cheater99: face it, even if it is the case, legally, the agency could sue him off the face of the earth
03:25:55 <Sgeo> GAMESTATE RECALCULATION
03:26:38 <cheater99> elliott: i still think eniac in minecraft is yet to be done
03:26:50 <cheater99> that freddie freeloader sample is not interesting at all i fear
03:27:03 <zzo38> Did John Cage use any dynamics in his 4'33" music?
03:27:11 <elliott> cheater99: 30 seconds != however long freddy freeloader is
03:27:32 <elliott> cheater99: just checked. you heard a whopping 5% of the track.
03:27:38 <cheater99> yes, but the original had much more depth and wasn't full of shitty little kiddie arpeggios that made no sense
03:28:07 <cheater99> the other track we have listened had translated the depth much better
03:28:12 <elliott> It doesn't have to be a 1:1 replica.
03:28:26 <elliott> Depth is a vague and subjective concept; it seems you are just trying to belittle it without actually making any arguments that it's an inferior work.
03:28:29 <cheater99> no, but 1:00000000000000000000000.1 isn't good either
03:28:38 <elliott> cheater99: you mean 1:0.1?
03:28:42 <elliott> not sure why you bothered with those 0s.
03:28:56 <zzo38> Maybe he means s/1:0/1:10/ ?
03:29:14 <cheater99> it's a subconscious tactic of showing my perceived worth
03:29:40 <zzo38> Or s/0(0*)\./0.$1/ ?
03:30:03 <elliott> 1:0.000000000000000000001 sure
03:30:05 <cheater99> so as far as in the light of law i only said it's worth only 10 times less
03:30:09 <elliott> but 1:00000000000000.1 is exactly 0:.1.
03:30:18 <cheater99> your subconscious knows, i really mean zero.
03:30:40 <elliott> cheater99: anyway it's rather pretentious to listen to an entire 11 minute work and then say that a 30 second sample of a 10 minute work is inferior.
03:30:45 <elliott> you have to listen to the entire thing to make that kind of judgement.
03:31:02 <cheater99> elliott: i think being pretentious is what makes us human
03:31:13 <elliott> you say that only because you are pretentious.
03:31:27 <cheater99> would it be pretentious of me to admit?
03:31:48 <cheater99> i'm not saying the rest of the song must be bad
03:32:05 <cheater99> i'm just saying: the part i heard wasn't translated as well as comparable parts in the other song
03:32:31 <cheater99> now if i had a flac edition of the whole album, that might change my perception completely
03:33:11 <cheater99> seeing as i don't... i'll probably never see the light on the topic of how good the adaptation really is
03:33:58 <elliott> pikhq: I'm going to cycle-perfectly emulate YOUR CURRENT COMPUTER.
03:34:05 <elliott> Run it and it shall be perfect.
03:34:14 <elliott> cheater99: You could just, you know, spend $5.
03:34:45 <cheater99> that includes a lot of assumptions
03:35:03 <cheater99> that are not true not accordingly to my will or ability
03:35:16 <zzo38> How do you cite this article? http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Plurals.html I see nothing about a journal or book it is published in. Do you know what journal or book it belongs to?
03:35:30 <elliott> zzo38: Interestingly, people publish work without it being inside a journal or a book.
03:35:35 <elliott> zzo38: In this case, it is a "web page".
03:35:37 <cheater99> i don't have a reliable repeatable way of doing the spending
03:35:44 <elliott> cheater99: does it need to be repeatable?
03:35:57 <elliott> cheater99: Are you planning on buying the album numerous times?
03:36:12 <cheater99> no, but it needs to because there are other things such that those things are of value $5
03:36:30 <elliott> cheater99: You're not being pretentious now, just stupid.
03:36:43 <cheater99> i'm just saying i need to be able to buy breakfast too
03:36:52 <zzo38> elliott: Then how can it be cited in the bibliography?
03:37:07 <elliott> cheater99: Are you currently out of $5 each time you buy breakfast?
03:37:08 <cheater99> zzo38: look how wikipedia does it!!!!
03:37:20 <elliott> when in doubt, if wikipedia does something, do the opposite
03:37:29 <cheater99> elliott: no, because sometimes i don't buy breakfast
03:37:39 <elliott> cheater99: but breakfast is a great thing.
03:37:54 <cheater99> elliott: for those who have a repeatable source of $5's
03:38:10 <elliott> cheater99: Does a repeatable source of $5s not fund your internet? BREAKFAST OR INTERNET: THE SHOWDOWN
03:38:19 <elliott> pikhq: http://board.byuu.org/images/challenge.jpg BYUU'S FORUM WANTS ME TO DO SIMPLE ALGEBRA AT 3:37 AM WHY DOES HE HATE ME
03:38:34 <cheater99> my $5s are not available during this month or two
03:39:04 <zzo38> Should I include the name of the university in the citation?
03:39:36 <elliott> It's his work, not the uni's.
03:39:58 <cheater99> yeah, if it's a private website don't
03:40:11 <zzo38> But the name of the university is listed at the top of the article. (I already put Damian Conway's name in the citation)
03:40:17 <elliott> It's a private website that happens to be hosted on a university. :p
03:40:23 <elliott> zzo38: Yeah, but that's standard practice in "papers" of any sort.
03:40:31 <elliott> zzo38: No harm in crediting, I suppose, but I think it's purely his work.
03:40:42 <zzo38> Don't bibliography citations usually list the publisher though?
03:40:46 <cheater99> miscrediting citations can be big beef
03:40:49 <elliott> zzo38: The publisher is himself in this case.
03:40:55 <cheater99> you don't want to credit someone's work to something else
03:41:04 <zzo38> OK. Then I will just put his name, the title, and the URL.
03:41:05 <elliott> zzo38: Is the TeXnicard source available?
03:41:08 <cheater99> An Algorithmic Approach to English Pluralization
03:41:08 <cheater99> School of Computer Science and Software Engineering
03:41:13 <cheater99> this is just his contact info, that's all
03:42:01 <elliott> Damian Conway, Evil Overlord
03:42:02 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, so far only incomplete versions on sprunge, but eventually it will be available properly when version 0.1 is complete enough to publish in this way.
03:42:03 <cheater99> An Algorithmic Approach to English Pluralization
03:42:03 <cheater99> University of Buckdoodle, Damian Conway
03:42:04 <elliott> you'd have to credit that part too
03:42:08 <elliott> cheater99: finished your sentence for you
03:42:18 <elliott> cheater99: or even "Damian Conway, University of Nowhere"
03:42:24 <elliott> zzo38: Can I see the current version, please?
03:42:37 <zzo38> elliott: OK. Just a minute...
03:42:51 <cheater99> elliott: why thank you, that was very nice of you to finish that sentence
03:43:07 <cheater99> this means i can now go to sleep, and you can continue saying things i would say
03:43:51 <elliott> Hi I'm cheater99 and I kill puppies for fun
03:44:03 <zzo38> elliott: http://sprunge.us/TKVI
03:44:29 <zzo38> elliott: Any comments to make about it?
03:44:43 <cheater99> those dalmatians will make for a BEAUTIFUL fur!! mwahahahahah!
03:45:07 <cheater99> ok, now i'm off to dream about uranusgirl and silver head
03:48:48 <elliott> pikhq: How likely is it that anyone can convince byuu to never use XML again.
03:49:14 <pikhq> elliott: Not very. He wrote a very simple XML parser.
03:49:47 <pikhq> Aside from only handling UTF-8 instead of UTF-8 and UTF-16, it seems to be a correct implementation of *just* XML.
03:50:33 <pikhq> Shame, though, that he couldn't be convinced to use a better scheme instead.
03:50:40 <zzo38> Do you also want to see the current (incomplete) version of the file "plain.cards" (Plain TeXnicard), "texnicard_format.tex" (TeX format file for Plain TeXnicard), or "system_book_conv" (AWK program to compile a book describing the other two files)?
03:52:20 <zzo38> elliott: http://sprunge.us/UCBc
03:53:15 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98753-Ultra-Rare-NES-Cartridge-Sells-for-41-000
03:54:25 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently it'd been dumped before though X-D
03:54:38 <elliott> [[So ok, I guess this isn't some avid gamer desperately wanting to play the game (the game has been dumped afaik and a NES console + flash cart and/or PC capable of running Nestopia would cost a lot less).
03:54:38 <elliott> So the most likely reason anyone would buy at that price is because they hope to resell it even higher in a decade or so. At least that's the only "sane" reason I could find. So it's basically game speculation. That or the person(s) who bought this are billionaires and like to waste their money for shits and giggles.]]
03:56:39 <pikhq> elliott: Or it's a collector of some sort.
03:56:49 <elliott> pikhq: A crazy collector :P
03:57:04 <elliott> pikhq: Shit, I'm tempted to get a box professionally printed and sealed now.
03:57:05 <pikhq> You'd have to be if you want, say, the entire NES set.
03:57:31 <elliott> pikhq: Put a dumped cartridge inside (with professional label etc.), age the box slightly, get it professionally sealed... $41k is mine.
03:57:39 <pikhq> Or the entire US SNES set, like Byuu does.
04:06:19 <elliott> pikhq: http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=838 Dear god @ during.
04:06:29 <zzo38> Any comment about the TeXnicard files, yet?
04:08:58 <elliott> "Sometimes I wish I had focused on the Sega Genesis instead. They only have one special chip, which was only used by one game :/"
04:09:27 <pikhq> elliott: The Genesis had more than one special chip, they just got released as seperate consoles. :P
04:10:16 <elliott> [[I think it is our very own AamirM who made Regen, which basically what could be called "bgen" (as in, an accuracy focused Genesis/Mega Drive emulator).]]
04:10:19 <pikhq> And arguably the Genesis *was* a "special chip" for the Master System.
04:11:08 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions and/or questions about TeXnicard? (Or about related things?)
04:11:10 <pikhq> AamirM is also working on an N64 emulator.
04:11:34 <elliott> "And yes, N64 emulation is rather poor and most N64 emulation projects are no longer active. If I had the skills, I'd give it a shot myself, but I'm afraid it's out of my reach. Anyone up for a team effort?" — guess that's happening then.
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04:12:19 <elliott> I should get a list of all unregistered one-char domains some time.
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04:14:08 <zzo38> elliott: Including unicode or not?
04:15:47 <variable> erm - one character domain names that are not registered == roughly all of them
04:17:33 <variable> meh - google tells me I'm wrong - there exist 5
04:18:19 <zzo38> variable: Do you have any opinions about TeXnicard?
04:18:40 <zzo38> variable: Also, can they register unicode one character domain names?
04:20:32 <variable> zzo38, unicode domain names are mapped to punycode
04:20:47 <variable> so there are no such thing as "single letter" unicode names
04:40:11 <zzo38> variable: I know that unicode domain names are mapped to punycode. But is there punycode name that represents a single unicode character which are registered?
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04:40:48 <variable> zzo38, as far as I am aware - yes
04:41:04 <zzo38> And, TeXnicard is,,, you can see the files: http://sprunge.us/TKVI http://sprunge.us/UCBc
04:43:27 <variable> GPLv3 :-( ah - its designed to create playing cards?
04:43:59 <zzo38> Yes it is designed to create playing cards.
04:44:20 <zzo38> Is there anything you do not like about GPLv3?
04:45:19 <variable> its less free than in it could be and restricts commercial modification (and often therefore support) of the code
04:46:03 <zzo38> How does it restrict commercial modification?
04:46:06 <variable> I'll have to play around with the code tomorrow to see what kind of cards I could create :-}
04:46:17 <zzo38> variable: It is incomplete. You cannot create any cards yet.
04:46:32 <zzo38> But you can make opinion of what I have so far.
04:47:43 <variable> if a company wants to base a product around the source code - for example MacOS/FreeBSD
04:48:01 <variable> they would have to release the source code - which means that they would probably not want to use that project
04:48:12 <variable> which means one less contributor (usually)
04:48:37 <variable> b) the GPL lies about freedom - making it seem that its a binary thing "either your free or your not"
04:48:50 <pikhq> variable: a) That is the whole *point* of the GPL.
04:49:01 <pikhq> variable: b) How does the GPL do that?
04:49:03 <zzo38> That is the intention. That if someone wants to make something they have to give everyone else same permissions
04:49:35 <variable> pikhq, a) which is its weakness - I prefer copyfree licences
04:49:59 <variable> b) the GPL claims that it "is free" which makes no sense
04:50:46 <variable> zzo38, it is better to allow everyone to use the code - and encourage people to give back instead of force people to give everything which may scare people away
04:51:07 <zzo38> However, it is OK if someone wants to make private modifications for their own use in their company to make cards with it. The GPL does not prevent that.
04:51:34 <variable> zzo38, as soon as they distribute it they must provide all the source code
04:51:41 <variable> which means they likely won't use it
04:51:50 <variable> and thus not help you if they fix anything
04:52:03 <pikhq> variable: This is a fallacious argument.
04:52:18 <pikhq> variable: *Plenty* of companies make use of GPL software and make contributions to it.
04:52:30 <variable> pikhq, yes - but plenty more avoid it like the plague
04:52:44 <pikhq> Yes, because of a lack of understanding of how it works.
04:53:00 <variable> pikhq, or because it would ruin their business model
04:53:11 <variable> if they were BSD licensed there is nothing stopping anyone from contributing in the same way as the GPL
04:53:12 <pikhq> There's a common thought that by using GPL licensed software, you need to release *all source code ever*.
04:53:15 <pikhq> Which is patently false.
04:53:30 <variable> pikhq, you must release all source code that is a derivative work
04:53:44 <pikhq> And with the BSD license you don't need to.
04:53:53 <pikhq> And with most software licenses *you can't make derivative works*.
04:53:57 <variable> pikhq, so imagine if apple were forced to release *all* of their source code
04:54:21 <variable> with the BSD licence you are allowed to
04:54:24 <pikhq> Actually, Apple releases the code for everything from BSD...
04:54:43 <zzo38> If a company wants to use it to produce their own cards, they do not need to release the source code to the program. The cards are just output. (Actually, I don't know if "plain.cards" changes this? If so, I should add an exception in the "plain.cards" file to ensure you are allowed to produce proprietary cards with this program)
04:54:44 <pikhq> And uses quite a bit of GPL software.
04:54:50 <pikhq> (GCC, WebKit, etc._)
04:54:53 <variable> but if it were GPL it would be required to release all of the OS code - not just the kernel parts
04:55:08 <pikhq> Just all the derivative works.
04:55:15 <pikhq> Which they do even when not obligated to.
04:55:24 <variable> pikhq, and since linking with inner interfaces could be considered a deriv. work
04:55:37 <pikhq> BTW, merely executing *on* an OS does not a derivative work make.
04:55:54 <pikhq> If FreeBSD were GPL, it would change hardly *any* of Apple's behavior at all.
04:56:03 <pikhq> Because they comply already.
04:56:32 <variable> pikhq, they would be forced to release any and all code that is a deriv. of the FreeBSD work
04:56:40 <variable> and would include a large majority of the OS
04:56:45 <pikhq> variable: Funny, they have.
04:56:45 <variable> instead of just the darwin kernel
04:57:06 <zzo38> Does "plain.cards" and "texnicard_format.tex" need a exception similar to the font exception?
04:57:29 <pikhq> The only things in OS X without source code available are, in essence, things that support their UI.
04:58:26 <pikhq> Cocoa, Carbon, and the like.
04:58:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Do you know enough about the GPL to know whether or not this exception would be needed?
04:59:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Uh, I think it would need almost precisely the font exception.
04:59:28 <variable> pikhq, which in theory could be considered a deriv work
04:59:35 <pikhq> variable: It isn't.
04:59:44 <pikhq> variable: Speaking as someone who has actually read copyright law, it isn't.
05:00:03 <variable> zzo38, I think it would require the font exception -- or just use a license that doesn't restrict distribution
05:00:03 <pikhq> Not even remotely.
05:00:31 <variable> pikhq, speaking as someone who has read the licence, read copyright law, worked for a copyright attorney, and has two patents....
05:00:48 <pikhq> And somehow you still don't seem to understand what a derivative work is.
05:01:05 <variable> now that the ad hominem is away
05:01:11 <variable> pikhq, you seem to not understand
05:01:24 <variable> the GPL defines it in a specific way
05:01:45 <pikhq> Okay, true, the GPLv3 doesn't even use the term "derivative work", it uses something different...
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05:02:16 <variable> pikhq, the basic idea is that interfacing using "private" methods results in a derivative work nearly always
05:02:48 <pikhq> Of course, "implementation of POSIX" (which is essentially all that OS X gets from the BSDs) is not exactly "private".
05:02:49 <variable> pikhq, my point is lets say that what your saying is true
05:03:11 <variable> pikhq,and that apple completely complies with the gpl (pretending freebsd was gpl)
05:04:04 <variable> the 2-BSD license still results in fewer restrictions than the GPL (and public domain even fewer - but its not legally possible to put something in the public domain)
05:04:21 <variable> and there is nothing stopping companies from contributing
05:04:58 <zzo38> pikhq: But "texnicard.w" should not need the font exception, because to that program, the file "plain.cards" is just data, and "texnicard_format.tex" is data to TeX, and these two files are linked. Am I correct?
05:05:06 <pikhq> Can you really call a modification that nobody else can access "contribution", or even "behavior that ought to be encouraged".
05:05:19 <variable> pikhq, wow - you completely misunderstand
05:05:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Hmm. Well. Is any of Texnicard actually going to be output in the resulting .dvi?
05:07:20 <zzo38> pikhq: No. (Also, the .dvi is not even the final result; the final result are picture files such as .png and so on.)
05:07:26 <variable> pikhq, company X decided to make a project. they look for some base to start on. they find G (GPLed) and B (BSDed). They choose to go with B because of its more free licences. They make a product and sell it. they contribute 20% of that code back to B. Now B gets something and G gets nothing. lets pretend B didn't exist and X wanted to have a viable business model. so they decide to write it on their own and not use G. so now G still
05:07:53 <pikhq> variable: Has this even once happened?
05:08:00 <variable> zzo38, re comments on the actual project instead of the license: I'll look at it tomorrow.
05:08:21 <pikhq> Hrm. Actually, no, pretty sure it has. LLVM.
05:08:33 <variable> pikhq, yes all the time. most commercial organizations have "copyright training" where they teach you to avoid the gpl
05:08:40 <zzo38> variable: OK. You can look at it tomorrow. (Just remember it is currently incomplete. It does compile and run; but it is incomplete.)
05:08:45 <pikhq> "Bullshit training", you mean.
05:09:15 <variable> pikhq, I use the term the companies use.
05:09:28 <pikhq> I use a term that accurately describes it.
05:09:51 <pikhq> Of course, all this comes courtesy of a few simple things...
05:10:01 <variable> pikhq, tbh in the end it hardly matters - I just like to get the code out. I dislike spending much time on license debates
05:10:11 <pikhq> Namely: copyright law is far too complex, and it's completely and utterly pointless in the modern day.
05:10:21 <pikhq> Not to mention counterproductive.
05:10:51 <variable> pikhq, agreed with the specific reference to software copyright. not saying I disagree about other things - but I don't have the energy right now to discuss :-}
05:11:13 <pikhq> variable: In general, though, it's *certainly* far far too complex, you must agree.
05:11:26 <variable> "not saying I disagree about other things'
05:12:18 <variable> pikhq, copyright law is insanely complex - and imho outlived its usefulness for certain things
05:12:24 <variable> but I really need to get to sleep
05:12:58 <variable> good night - I enjoyed this conversation
05:17:59 <zzo38> There are a few files in TeXnicard which are public domain, such as "system_book_conv", which is not actually needed to run TeXnicard; what it does is to make book from "plain.cards" and "texnicard_format.tex" files.
05:20:16 <zzo38> Is the extra restriction on the use of the name of TeXnicard is valid?
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06:41:50 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAX0gJt-aZg fuckin LOL
06:46:23 <augur> j-invariant: i have java gtfo >|
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08:46:41 <Sgeo> Do you come across "alot' alot?
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09:27:32 <Gregor> j-invariant: For what reason do certain English-speaking adults insist on conforming to and uplifting a certain subset of the prescribed rules of correct English grammar, but still ignore others? Perhaps because English is a living language, and if an entire generation starts spelling "a lot" as "alot", then the correct spelling is "alot".
09:28:44 <augur> j-invariant: adults can spell "a lot" perfectly fine
09:29:02 <augur> the problem is that "a lot" is a thing you park your car in
09:29:50 <augur> "a lot" ~ "alot" as a quantificational element is a single word, not two, in modern english.
09:30:22 <j-invariant> so would writing "alot" be an improvement?
09:30:25 <augur> furthermore, orthography is purely conventional, and as gregor points out, the current convention in colloquial written english is that the space is entirely optional
09:30:46 <augur> in many ways, "a lot" is going the same way as "up on"
09:31:03 <augur> and so many other such words in english
09:31:14 <j-invariant> do you know any book or whatever that talks about this?
09:31:17 <augur> "through out", "none the less", "not with standing" etc etc
09:31:25 <Gregor> "Did this actually happen" // English has no regulatory body, it's happening because people are just doing it.
09:31:29 <augur> j-invariant: any good book on descriptive linguistics.
09:31:38 <augur> Gregor: even if english DId have a regulatory body, it wouldnt matter
09:31:49 <j-invariant> augur: are there any good ones for a beginner wyouwould recommend?
09:31:52 <augur> languages are the original grassroots technology
09:31:54 <Gregor> augur: But thank Jebus it doesn't ;)
09:32:10 <augur> j-invariant: for orthography, no, but for language in general, sure
09:32:31 <augur> j-invariant: for language in general, check out guy deutscher's the unfolding of language
09:33:27 <augur> "above" is the result of successive de-prepositionalizations from "on by up on" (only from back when they were said and spelled "an be uf an"
09:34:11 <augur> j-invariant: the moral of that book is that language is a constant tension between expressiveness and conciseness
09:34:55 <augur> concision drives us to eliminate parts of the language that don't have any function (in that they don't make the language any more usable)
09:35:30 <augur> expressivity drives us to invent new constructs when the language has no technique for conveying quite what we want to convey
09:35:53 <augur> so theres a tension between reduction and expansion of the language, and it happens all the time
09:36:28 <j-invariant> have any new constructs come up in recorded history?
09:36:56 <augur> every new thing you hate is a new construct that might be standard a hundred years from now
09:37:12 <augur> usually its new words, since words are for some reason incredibly easy to invent
09:37:17 <augur> and usually its certain kinds of words
09:37:30 <augur> tho it varies by language which words are so freely invented
09:37:46 <j-invariant> what baout a new "thing" like verb/noun/etc
09:37:50 <augur> grammatical constructs are harder to change
09:37:58 <augur> verbs and nouns are the easiest words to invent
09:38:10 <augur> adjectives and adverbs probably next
09:38:21 <augur> oh, you mean a new category?
09:38:42 <augur> theres debate over whether categories are real in any sense
09:38:56 <augur> but in general we only see a small number of categories
09:39:40 <augur> i mean, most contemporary theories place no real restriction on the number of categories, and we dont have any principled way to explain why we dont see the full range of possibilities
09:40:30 <augur> which is to say, there seem to be restrictions, but we dont know what they are beyond some very rough outlines in the theoretically possible category landscape
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10:02:51 * Sgeo gets desparate
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10:16:41 <Vorpal> augur, are there any languages with more/different categories than English?
10:18:23 <augur> but there generally seems to be a fairly fixed inventory that all languages draw from
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10:20:37 <Vorpal> why does my printer only ever decide to take two pages at a time when doing double sided printing. And only in the second "pass" too!?
10:20:45 <Vorpal> it never ever do that otherwise
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10:43:35 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, why does the Minecraft window not capture the mouse?
10:44:15 <Sgeo_> Is there maybe a bug in the older version that I.. obtained?
10:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly, or it could be something else; if you're not on Windows, we can't help.
10:45:18 <Sgeo_> ...trying it before I buy it, so to speak
10:45:31 <Sgeo_> I am happy to state that the issues I was having in Classic do NOT occur in Alpha
11:03:40 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, if you actually buy it and you want to use mcmap, you'll need to switch to Linux.
11:04:03 <Sgeo_> Once I buy it, I intend to mostly play on online servers
11:04:32 <Sgeo_> F11 helps the mouse not be captured, but I don't want to have to go to fullscreen
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12:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, why did you change your name to TheDoctor and then back again?
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12:24:32 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: name antics in another channel
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12:35:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo's dad is periodically rebooting his computer for lulz.
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12:51:43 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function.
12:55:59 <nooga> how is obsidian made?
13:13:00 <nooga> HAHA' I'VE GOT 5 OBSIDIANS
13:15:47 <nooga> there's lava on obsidian
13:17:57 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: what about f x = 2*x
13:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> As in, a polymorphic function with no typeclass constraints.
13:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You can demonstrate that id is the only one possible if you let a be the unit type, but it's extending that upwards that I'm having problems with.
13:19:09 <cheater99> of course you can have polymorphic fall-over
13:19:18 <cheater99> in which case your question is easily answered
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13:27:57 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: in that case, it is a (difficult) theorem that every well typed term has a normal form (i.e. you can evaluate everything and it wont loop)
13:28:34 <j-invariant> I think it's plausible to enumerate all (one) normal forms of type forall a. a -> a
13:28:57 <j-invariant> so like \a -> a counts but (\a -> a) (\a -> a) doesn't
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13:37:05 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: have you seen any proof that simple typed lambda calculus normalizes
13:40:24 <Vorpal> # [...]. From reading these comments, it is clear that
13:40:24 <Vorpal> # text following a '#' is ignored to the end of the line.
13:40:33 <Vorpal> from the top of a config file :D
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14:02:14 <Vorpal> elliott: for log reading: I tried that newer version of synergy thingy. Same old bugs: 1) clipboard buggy in various ways 2) altgr key sometimes get stuck when on guest screen.
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14:05:35 <Vorpal> elliott: there is possibly one bug that is gone, but it is so rare I can't be sure yet. (Caps lock getting suck in different states compared to keyboard led, and different states on the different computers)
14:05:57 <Vorpal> that happened like twice in 6 months
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14:06:43 <elliott> 20:15:47 <variable> erm - one character domain names that are not registered == roughly all of them
14:06:53 <elliott> variable: no, that you can actually register -- there are 100 or so
14:06:56 <elliott> most are reserved or registered
14:07:44 <j-invariant> elliott: know anything about LaRouche youth movement?
14:08:16 <elliott> j-invariant: LaRouch people are all complete nutcases, as far as i can tell. it is interesting but i have not looked in to it as much as i would like to
14:08:57 <elliott> j-invariant: nope :) but wikipedia does!
14:09:00 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche_and_the_LaRouche_movement
14:09:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe 1 or 2 letter ones can no longer be registered. Not sure if it was some tlds only, or all. The existing ones were grandfathered.
14:09:47 <elliott> Vorpal: you _definitely_ can register them. i looked into thix
14:10:18 <elliott> Vorpal: for instance I believe that nic.st will sell you a one-char if you give them insane amounts of money
14:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: hopefully I will be able to script looking up all the domains to see which ones are free and registerable, filter out those with unreasonable laws (*cough* .ly must follow sharia law *cough*), and then filter out those with insane prices
14:11:15 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, as I said in log. the new synergy thingy did not help at all
14:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know more about it than that, just that they want to go back to 432Hz A tuning.
14:11:33 <elliott> http://www.nic.st/twoletter/name/w
14:12:18 <elliott> <?php $d = 2.2250738585072011e-308; ?>
14:12:38 <Vorpal> elliott, if only I knew how to reproduce these bugs. It is pointless to say "alt-gr sometimes get stuck" or "sometimes you get ghost pastes in gtk programs on the 'interactive' machine".
14:13:07 <elliott> j-invariant: aww, not anagolf's either
14:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> [[This achievement by an amateur chorus would have been virtually impossible if not for [...] performing the work in the scientifically correct musical tuning of C=256 Hz, rather than the prevalent, anti-musical and vocally destructive tuning of the Romantic School's A=440 or higher (see below).]]
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14:14:06 <j-invariant> elliott: I trsied that out earlier when I read hte article but I must have done it wrong
14:14:15 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know more about it than that, just that they want to go back to 432Hz A tuning. <-- err, as far as I know you generally try to tune to match what the music was written for. At least in professional orchestras.
14:14:40 <elliott> doesn't work on 5.3.3 here
14:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I think they just want *everything* tuned to 432Hz A.
14:14:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this might include non-equal temperament and so on
14:14:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that's just silly
14:15:14 <elliott> SO WEIRD I WOULDN'T HAVE CALLED THEM SILLY YOU'RE A VISIONARY
14:15:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you are doing it professionally you tune for whatever the music was written for
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14:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The Schiller Institute, which represents these ideas internationally, has become known for its initiative to lower the international standard musical pitch to middle-C=256 cycles per second (corresponding to approximately A=430 to 432), in order to preserve the human voice and to return the performance of Classical music to that of the composers' poetic intentions.]]
14:16:21 <elliott> variable: plz don't debate gpl/bsd here, it has been done 5 billion times before
14:16:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well if the music was written for that then it should be played like that. If it was written for something else then do as it's author intended!
14:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Because we all know that a 1% increase in frequency wreaks havoc on the vocal chords.
14:17:05 <j-invariant> http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/images2010/Obama_BP.gif
14:17:12 <elliott> variable: p.s. it's irrelevant because selling data is a broken business model only held in place by illogical regulations that should be abolished, which would conveniently make the GPL and BSD identical in making no restrictions whatsoever
14:17:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also, why do they centre around vocals? Don't they care at all about purely instrumental music!?
14:17:41 <j-invariant> 14:05 < JohnFlux> Roger Penrose, as a kid, was dropped down a grade at school
14:17:41 <j-invariant> 14:06 < j-invariant> and now he thinks godels incompleteness theorem means that
14:17:44 <j-invariant> the human brain is something more than a turing machine -
14:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> MORE RELEVANT STUFF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiller_Institute
14:18:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was that "brilliant idea"?
14:19:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err. What would that be
14:19:23 <elliott> 21:00:31 <variable> pikhq, speaking as someone who has read the licence, read copyright law, worked for a copyright attorney, and has two patents....
14:19:28 <elliott> variable: software patents by any chance?
14:19:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a generator of physicists in wheelchairs?
14:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Before I discovered that some bastards had copied it, gone back in time and written a paper on it.
14:19:59 <elliott> a generator that produced hawkings would be awesome
14:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The Schiller Institute employs a large set of arguments for this tuning, from historical accuracy to claims that this is how the universe is tuned, with references to Johannes Kepler's treatise on the harmony of the world, where he proposes the notion that the ordering of planetary orbits is based on harmonics and the relationships among the Platonic solids.[23]]]
14:20:17 <j-invariant> weird I was just about to paste that exact quote
14:20:23 <elliott> 21:04:04 <variable> the 2-BSD license still results in fewer restrictions than the GPL (and public domain even fewer - but its not legally possible to put something in the public domain)
14:20:33 <elliott> variable: it is in many countries. don't be so US-centric.
14:20:34 <j-invariant> ..and say that Kepler himself knew this theory was slightly off and throw it out
14:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, he clearly knew it was crap, since it requires circular orbits to work.
14:21:04 <Vorpal> meh, that doesn't sound as good asas "YOUR MOTHER".
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14:21:55 <oerjan> * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function.
14:22:23 <elliott> 21:07:26 <variable> pikhq, company X decided to make a project. they look for some base to start on. they find G (GPLed) and B (BSDed). They choose to go with B because of its more free licences. They make a product and sell it. they contribute 20% of that code back to B. Now B gets something and G gets nothing. lets pretend B didn't exist and X wanted to have a viable business model. so they decide to write it on their own a
14:22:23 <elliott> nd not use G. so now G still
14:22:23 <elliott> 21:07:26 <variable> gets nothing.
14:22:24 <Vorpal> parametricity, awesome word
14:22:25 <elliott> unfortunately, as there is no such thing as a monopoly on copying non-scarce data, X's hilariously bad business model nets them nothing and they go out of business before they even realise that the GPL has no legal standing. a sad story!
14:22:30 <elliott> Oh wait, that's just in reasonable world.
14:22:50 <elliott> * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function.
14:22:55 <elliott> j-invariant: weren't you talking about that
14:22:57 <elliott> theorems just from the types
14:23:13 <j-invariant> elliott: and have you installed uAgda yet?
14:23:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well f can't inspect the value because it's polymorphic
14:23:27 <elliott> j-invariant: no, i had to reinstall ghc.
14:23:30 <oerjan> it holds perfectly for system F, and breaks down partially for haskell because of nontermination and seq
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14:23:40 <elliott> oerjan: haskell is not a useful language to prove things about :)
14:23:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: probably in uagda :}
14:23:59 <j-invariant> 14:23 < oerjan> it holds perfectly for system F, and breaks down partially for haskell because of nontermination and seq
14:24:03 <oerjan> elliott: well someone _did_ write a paper about how much parametricity still holds in haskell
14:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/revolution.html
14:24:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's a power of two, i like it
14:25:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: basically parametricity gives you for f : a -> a that f . g = g . f for any g whose type fits. then put g = const x for any x
14:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, but that's where the non-crazy arguments end.
14:25:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/2007/historic_videos.html
14:26:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "Order Verdi pitch tuning forks" I KNEW THEY WERE SELLING SOMETHING
14:26:11 <elliott> 01:27:32 <Gregor> j-invariant: For what reason do certain English-speaking adults insist on conforming to and uplifting a certain subset of the prescribed rules of correct English grammar, but still ignore others? Perhaps because English is a living language, and if an entire generation starts spelling "a lot" as "alot", then the correct spelling is "alot".
14:26:21 <elliott> Gregor: Um, excuse me, the alot is used when referring to the alot. http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
14:26:27 <elliott> Gregor: a lot is quantification.
14:27:33 <nooga> i thought i can make a tunnel for lava to flow
14:27:49 <Vorpal> nooga, you can but be careful of burns. It need to slow downwards though
14:27:50 <nooga> and take flowing lava from the lake to light my cave
14:27:52 <elliott> nooga: your addiction is inevitable, buy it so you can play on our server :p
14:28:19 <Vorpal> elliott, your argument made no sense wrt. "alot". He just claimed that language changes over time.
14:28:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, the skyway is actually secure on non-peaceful mode.
14:28:34 <elliott> Vorpal: alot and a lot mean two different things
14:28:38 <elliott> Vorpal: the alot is an animal: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
14:28:47 <elliott> Vorpal: a lot means "a lot".
14:28:53 <Vorpal> elliott, ever heard of homonyms? :)
14:29:09 <elliott> neither whoosh nor stupid seemed to cover it there
14:29:29 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes it is an invented animal. But sure. Why not.
14:29:30 <elliott> oerjan: Innovation in Puns medal, Missing the Point division plz?
14:29:51 <elliott> 02:02:51 * Sgeo gets desparate
14:29:58 <elliott> not so desparate that you won't correct your spelling i see
14:30:17 <elliott> 02:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly, or it could be something else; if you're not on Windows, we can't help.
14:30:22 <elliott> Don't you mean if you _are_ on Windows.
14:30:31 <elliott> 03:03:40 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, if you actually buy it and you want to use mcmap, you'll need to switch to Linux.
14:30:31 <elliott> 03:04:03 <Sgeo_> Once I buy it, I intend to mostly play on online servers
14:30:35 <elliott> Sgeo: mcmap works only on online server.
14:30:52 <nooga> lava floows in my tunnel but the cave isn't so deep
14:30:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, it only works on SMP servers.
14:30:57 <elliott> and playing an SMP server locally would suck
14:31:01 <elliott> since you can just give yourself shit
14:31:18 <elliott> Sgeo: and mcmap is incredibly useful on our server since we often just give a coordinate pair to //goto. so be prepared to boot to ubuntu.
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14:31:28 <Vorpal> elliott, in any case you are the one being silly here. First for trying to appeal to authority (which isn't even one really!) and second for trying to use that as an argument where it didn't fit.
14:31:44 <elliott> oerjan: please, you need to invent the Nuclear Whoosh so I can use it on Vorpal
14:31:53 <elliott> oerjan: he is the Hiroshima to my desire to bomb japs
14:31:59 <elliott> (best analogy? no, GREATEST)
14:32:14 <Vorpal> elliott, was it supposed to be a joke? Aren't they supposed to be funny. I think I remember you claiming that.
14:32:38 <elliott> Vorpal: are you trying to start like a daily game where we each annoy the other into ignoring them for a period of time
14:32:55 <Vorpal> elliott, no. But that's an interesting idea.
14:33:08 <elliott> ah. it won't work because my first and last ignore will be permanent.
14:33:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: neutral :P
14:33:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure I'm playing. I'm far too nice to be good at it :P
14:34:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good, you realised that wasn't meant seriously :)
14:34:37 <Vorpal> also I hate this weather
14:34:40 <elliott> i'm made out of a unicorn that poops flowers and niceness.
14:34:45 <Vorpal> 1 dm snow this afternoon
14:35:01 <elliott> i'm actually inside snow now
14:35:05 <elliott> we don't have doors in my country
14:35:22 <elliott> 05:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, that's why I said a -> a.
14:35:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you should probably say forall a. a -> a
14:35:37 <elliott> only haskell lets that kind of implicit shit fly >:)
14:35:38 <nooga> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
14:35:51 <Vorpal> I was out in car today. Had to stop a few times because the windshield wipers froze. Fiat really isn't made for this kind of winters.
14:36:05 <nooga> i just burt myself in the lava that i invited to my cave
14:36:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, lucky you
14:36:13 <nooga> and all my possesions
14:36:33 <Vorpal> nooga, should have put glass in first
14:36:39 <Vorpal> nooga, and had a safety water pool
14:37:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, official snow depth is at 32 cm. Though it is a fair bit from here.
14:37:57 <Vorpal> but they only measure it in a few places
14:37:58 <elliott> nooga: also ignore Vorpal's advice, just stuff valuable stuff into chest before working with lava
14:38:16 <Vorpal> elliott, my advice was good. Having a water pool to put out the fire is a good idea
14:38:21 <Vorpal> and a bucket of water in a quick slot
14:38:26 <elliott> more trouble than it's worth
14:38:43 <elliott> besides after a point dying is preferable
14:38:52 <elliott> e.g. you're on fire. you have a diamond pickaxe
14:38:58 <elliott> do you spend the time throwing the pickaxe away from fire
14:39:03 <elliott> or trying to save yourself possibly failing and losing it?
14:39:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you make sure to always be above the lava level when working with it. And there being a way to get out if you fall.
14:39:48 <elliott> Vorpal: you haven't answered my q
14:39:49 <Vorpal> and water pools are still useful
14:40:01 <elliott> ugh, deewiant expressed is lagged beyond usability.
14:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I'm not sure. I would safe myself since I have diamond armour too.
14:40:14 <Vorpal> elliott, no time to throw it all the safety
14:40:29 * elliott falls down an unloaded chunk error, with cows, while moving forwards somehow, in a minecart
14:40:32 <elliott> Vorpal: you didn't get rid of the armour before working with lava?
14:41:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if I work with lava sure. But then I make sure to take security precautions such as being able to walk out the lava area if I fall in, so I don't get stuck unable to get out
14:41:44 <Vorpal> elliott, the other case when you could hit lava is mining, and then I wear armour of course
14:41:51 <Vorpal> in case of pits or whatever
14:42:39 <nooga> i think i will move myself
14:42:47 <Vorpal> elliott, so far I only fell into lava once in minecraft on single player. And that was in the beginning, I had stone tools only still back then
14:43:01 <elliott> nooga: there is lava everywhere at low levels btw.
14:43:14 <Vorpal> indeed. And sometimes at higher levels
14:43:20 <Vorpal> nooga, last I checked chests didn't burtn
14:43:33 <nooga> but i don't have much
14:43:36 <nooga> some gold, one diamond
14:43:51 <nooga> and i think i'm bored with this enormous cave
14:44:14 <j-invariant> is there a video of bees building a honeycomb?
14:44:19 <nooga> i can take everything and find another place
14:44:21 <Vorpal> nooga, mhm. If you find a large floating island you could build a cottage on top (they are rarely large enough even for that, let alone anything larger)
14:44:40 <Vorpal> elliott, btw about language change. Do you say "a newt" or "an ewt"?
14:45:03 <Vorpal> elliott, at least you are somewhat consistent then! :D
14:45:12 <elliott> nooga: you can ditch redstone generally
14:45:17 <elliott> nooga: it's slow to mine and basically worthless
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14:45:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well a few are useful to have around, for the occasional circuit
14:45:50 <Vorpal> personally I don't mine it actively, but if I need to mine it because it is in my way then I put it in a chest
14:46:00 <elliott> nooga: only mine it if you need it :P
14:46:03 <Vorpal> nooga, yeah. If you have it, don't throw it away
14:46:12 <Vorpal> but don't mine it actively unless you need it
14:46:20 <elliott> i just mean when mining you can ignore it most of the time
14:46:42 <Vorpal> elliott, quite, except when it is in your path and you are digging a supposedly straight tunnel.
14:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, do you use a minecart system to get around your single player world btw?
14:47:42 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't have an active single player world
14:47:49 <elliott> especially since the files are on the other box
14:48:14 <Vorpal> elliott, rsync them. that is what I do between my thinkpad and my desktop
14:48:45 <nooga> hm i should build a boat
14:49:11 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i don't plan to use the old laptop all that much now
14:49:49 <Vorpal> nooga, build when needed. They break so easily it is pretty pointless to build one and expect it to be there next time. Some animal could walk into it the wrong way so it gets pushed into a stone wall or whatever. Happens a lot
14:50:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well having a backup on another system is always nice
14:50:53 <Vorpal> elliott, also laptop as server is probably not such good idea. laptop drives are made for lots of starts/stops, not for long continuous operation.
14:51:13 <elliott> meh, who cares, it's quiet and small :)
14:51:14 <variable> <elliott> variable: software patents by any chance? --> no; I am NOT getting into the rest of the conversation
14:51:41 <elliott> variable: if we're going to have a holy war it can at least be in less-explored territory
14:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what about a coq vs. agda flamewar?
14:52:46 <variable> How do I parse command line arguments in Haskell ?
14:52:57 <j-invariant> variable: there is a System.Arguments I think
14:53:25 <elliott> Vorpal: but they're not even the same thing :)
14:53:30 <elliott> variable: System.Environment
14:53:57 <Vorpal> elliott, are vi and eamcs really the same thing though?
14:53:59 <elliott> variable: emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden
14:54:03 <elliott> variable: vile vs. nedit would be fun
14:54:35 <elliott> Vorpal: teco wins obviously, speaking as someone who has edited with both
14:54:36 <j-invariant> emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden <--- yet nobody seems to have got anywhere..?
14:54:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you used teco?
14:55:28 <Vorpal> go meta: flamewar vs. not-having-a-flamewar
14:55:59 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, i've used teco, it's nice
14:56:20 <elliott> j-invariant: I like ais' statement -- the kind of people you get in here are more likely to use either both emacs and vi, or neither
14:56:43 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, I mean if you showed a dump of all the keys you put into emacs it'd look like line noise too but it's actually fun to use
14:56:49 <elliott> variable: ais523, one of our top actives
14:56:52 <elliott> not as much recently though
14:57:01 <elliott> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html this guy :-P
14:57:22 <elliott> note: site is shameless wolfram self-promotion crap
14:58:01 <Vorpal> actually today I used... emacs, kate, nano. Not vi though. While I have nothing against vi as such, I just can't get used to the split command/editing mode concept.
14:58:33 <Vorpal> as for vim, all I can say is that I looked at vimscript and concluded that while elisp is not great for a lisp, it is still better than vimscript.
14:58:45 <oerjan> <variable> <elliott> variable: software patents by any chance? --> no; I am NOT getting into the rest of the conversation <-- or else he'll have to use his patented death ray
14:59:09 <elliott> oerjan: *patented death ray control software
15:00:24 <j-invariant> this is interesting, Kepler has a different theory about snowflake formation than me
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15:05:10 <Vorpal> hm doesn't that apply to a lot of old science. The best fitting theory changes over time as new discoveries are made and so on.
15:05:26 <Vorpal> I mean, what is so interesting about this difference in particular?
15:06:59 <elliott> kepler is right about everything
15:08:44 <Vorpal> elliott, so what about non-European music?
15:09:16 <nooga> is it safe to jump to the water from a great height?
15:09:24 <Vorpal> nooga, how deep is the water
15:09:34 <elliott> nooga: 2 deep or more, yes
15:10:07 <Vorpal> nooga, 2 or deeper should be safe. But I found that sometimes 3 or deeper is needed. I presume due to lag in SMP but I haven't played much single player lately
15:10:24 <elliott> I love how NOBODY HAS RESPONDED TO MY UBUNTUFORUMS THREAD AT ALL.
15:10:35 <elliott> In fact it has been pushed off the front page.
15:10:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ubuntu. What do you expect.
15:10:49 <elliott> j-invariant: less useless than #ubuntu.
15:10:53 <elliott> Vorpal: less useless than #ubuntu.
15:10:57 <j-invariant> well sometiems good stuff comes up in google
15:11:06 <elliott> j-invariant: googled to hell and back for this already :/
15:11:12 <elliott> and i'm not about to go for linuxquestions or something that's even worse
15:11:22 <j-invariant> what is the problem? (..I don't know anything about this stuff :/)
15:11:49 <Phantom_Hoover> *Noöne* has any helpful advice for me on this graphics issue.
15:11:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah. But that is like saying falcon is better than lolcode. (note: I do not know the sorting order of badness here, just that both are very bad)
15:12:09 <elliott> j-invariant: how do i make a macbook air boot a normal usb drive formatted like the ubuntu download instructions tell me to with ubuntu on it; googling suggests that macs dont like to do it but this appears to be false; the fedora guys seem to think you need a gpt partition table and an hfs partition; but apparently there are success stories with using those instructions to boot ubuntu off a usb stick on a mac
15:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, LOLCODE is quite a nice language if you ignore everything before the AST.
15:12:41 <elliott> *quite a horrible language
15:12:43 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe it differs between different macs?
15:12:48 <Vorpal> elliott, firmware versions or whatever
15:12:50 <elliott> It uses the implicit result of the last statement to work out conditionals.
15:12:54 <j-invariant> elliott: I was able to boot mac os x off a USB but not ubuntu
15:13:10 <Vorpal> elliott, is bootcamp installed? I presume it is?
15:13:23 <elliott> Vorpal: as i have told you countless times before, "boot camp" is a marketing name that means nothing.
15:13:26 <j-invariant> elliott: so you might have to burn some CDs to do it - and it takes a lot of testing to find out which CD works etc ..
15:13:34 <elliott> Vorpal: it is an EFI update which adds bios emulation, and an OS X tool to download windows drivers and partition the disk.
15:13:47 <Vorpal> elliott, told me once afaik. And I meant the EFI upgrade in question
15:13:53 <elliott> every mac since it came out comes with the EFI update and the tool, however i have not used the tool as it will only create two partitions
15:13:57 <elliott> well resize one and create one
15:14:08 <elliott> j-invariant: CDs would make it trivial, but I don't have an optical drive
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15:14:20 <elliott> j-invariant: and Airs can only boot with the Steve Jobs Approved(TM) SuperDrive. which costs £60.
15:14:31 <elliott> so i kind of want to get usb working :-P
15:14:35 <elliott> I'm sure I can it'll just be a pain
15:14:40 <elliott> that's what you get when you buy Apple...
15:14:51 <j-invariant> I thought someone figured out how to get ubuntu on the macbook air
15:15:06 <elliott> they say "use a superdrive"
15:15:15 <elliott> or "follow the instructions for usb on the download page"
15:15:20 <elliott> (the latter i have tried and it didn't work)
15:15:30 <elliott> but theydont like doing it :)
15:15:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what happens instead of booting it?
15:16:04 <Vorpal> elliott, error? just booting normal?
15:16:30 <j-invariant> "So after examining all the ideas that came into my head I conclude thus: the cause of the six-sided shape of a snowflake is none other than that of the ordered shapes of plants and of numerical constants; and since in them nothing occurs without supreme reason--not, to be sure, such as discursive reasoning discovers, but such as existed from the first in the Creator’s design and is preserved from that origin to this day in the wonderful nat
15:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal: when i hold down option it just shows my drive and the partition i have with i think a grub floppy image on
15:17:11 <Vorpal> elliott, does it show the mac os x usb stick if you insert that instead?
15:17:30 <elliott> Vorpal: the one it came with? i'm sure it does
15:17:35 <elliott> haven't actually tested it, but yes, it will
15:17:42 <elliott> it can read USBs perfectly fine
15:17:42 <nooga> i've got a great settlement in a hanging cliff, on a remote island
15:17:44 <elliott> it just doesn't like this one
15:17:48 <elliott> I think i might need gpt/hfs ... but
15:17:53 <elliott> the os x usb instructions on ubuntu.com
15:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott, loadlin for OS X? I'm sure it is possible with a driver of some sort.
15:18:57 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a journaled fs, you have nothing to worry about ;)
15:19:04 <elliott> it would probably be possible to make the install CD boot off a /partition/ if i extract it and hook all the bootloaders up and kernel params and stuff
15:19:07 <elliott> and rely on BIOS emulation to go properly
15:19:12 <elliott> also, i'd have to do it on the install partition
15:19:22 <elliott> because the swap and shared ones are partitions 4 and 5 IIRC
15:19:26 <elliott> so i don't think you can boot from them
15:19:41 <elliott> although if i put grub on the main ubuntu partition
15:19:44 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you boot from any partition number with gpt?
15:19:47 <elliott> and used it to boot the 4th or 5th partition...
15:19:53 <elliott> Vorpal: not with bios emulation i don't think
15:19:56 <elliott> when i select one it just does the 3rd
15:20:02 <elliott> which is presumably expected to have a bootloader for the rest
15:20:07 <elliott> anyway i'd rather just get usb working
15:20:16 <elliott> i half-suspect it might just be that the mac doesn't like that usb stick in particular :D
15:20:24 <elliott> but it can read it in os x and stuff...
15:20:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds weird. Maybe it doesn't have the approved-by-jobs bit set?
15:20:56 <Vorpal> elliott, if it can only use one specific cd drive I mean
15:21:06 <Vorpal> elliott, then it is possible the same could apply to usb sticks
15:21:14 <elliott> Vorpal: i doubt it since other people have reported success
15:21:30 <Vorpal> elliott, with the same generation of macbook air?
15:22:11 <elliott> i wonder what the rules for bumping are on ubuntuforums, and how much they'll yell at me if i violate them
15:25:20 <elliott> "Programming language design has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable software to blue-collar workaday programmers."
15:25:48 <Vorpal> that made very little sense.
15:25:52 <elliott> The foundations of mathematics has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable theories to blue-collar workaday mathematicians.
15:26:08 <elliott> (first quote from http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011/01/minimalism.html, latter my own mockery)
15:27:42 <j-invariant> I just cannot understand that sort of thing
15:28:10 <elliott> j-invariant: either he considers the stdlib axiomatic, or he thinks that people run around with different incompatible stdlibs. well ok you do but nobody else does :)
15:28:37 <elliott> it's surprising how much of an antiacademic sentiment exists in programming
15:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, antiïntellectualism seems rife in "practical" programming...
15:28:46 <j-invariant> I use the same standard library as everyone else that uses a good one
15:28:48 <elliott> i mean, aren't we meant to be above that?
15:29:02 <elliott> we're (meant to be) competent thought worker engineers
15:29:09 <elliott> so why does everyone shit on theory?
15:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's because the non-idiots have better things to do.
15:30:34 <elliott> "Technically, SML'97 as defined in the Definition requires only a minimal initial basis, which, while including the types int, real, char, and string, need have no operations on those base types. Hence, the only observable output of an SML'97 program is termination or raising an exception."
15:30:40 <cheater99> elliott: what he means is that languages should come with frameworks
15:31:00 <elliott> cheater99: no, he means that languages should be perl.
15:31:10 <elliott> because all he does is advocate perl. all day. on reddit.
15:31:32 <cheater99> i installed a package that was dependent on some perl bs the other day
15:31:54 <cheater99> it said "indexing perl manpages, this could take a while"
15:32:09 <cheater99> after 10 hours it wasn't done. i straced it, and noticed it's opening every single file on my hard drive.
15:32:09 <elliott> j-invariant: ugh no i hate that site it's the only one worse than stack overflow
15:32:19 <elliott> cheater99: why did you leave it 10 hours.
15:32:38 <cheater99> when i saw it opening /bin/ksh i knew it was doing something bad
15:32:57 <cheater99> elliott: i couldn't be bothered touching some sort of perl disaster
15:33:04 <elliott> what do you have against ksh :|
15:33:07 <cheater99> elliott: and besides i have enough cores.
15:33:16 <cheater99> elliott: nothing, it's just not a perl manpage
15:33:22 <elliott> cheater99: but it COULD be :D
15:33:25 <elliott> a self-extracting perl manpage
15:33:31 <elliott> documenting the "ksh" function
15:33:55 <cheater99> if you filter the ksh binary for readable characters, it's both a perl module and a manual for it
15:34:18 <j-invariant> "For example, consider perhaps the ultimate counter example of minimalism in programming language design. PHP's multiple searching functions differ in searchtype( $needle, $haystack ) and search_type( $haystack, $needle ) and searchType( $neestack, $haydle ) and other permutations—and these are core language features."
15:34:18 <elliott> ))++++////33337777777>>>>BBBEEEHHHKKKNNNQQQQUUUUUUUUUU
15:34:33 <j-invariant> they are just procedures, you could add them to scheme
15:34:41 <elliott> cdefbghijkl+m,*n !"#$%&'()opqrstuGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`vwxyaz-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEF{|}~
15:36:18 <j-invariant> I don't even know what he's trying to say but it's wrong
15:37:07 <cheater99> if you can't understand it you've never used php
15:37:29 <cheater99> i hereby approve osmose as a good sms emulator
15:37:33 <Vorpal> <elliott> --strings /bin/ksh <-- well it is based on a heuristic. A very simple one. Just find printable chars. On each line print as long lengths of these are possible.
15:39:09 <elliott> Vorpal: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
15:39:19 <j-invariant> how do people hone this ability of just write absolute shit
15:40:13 <Vorpal> strings on random large program in /usr/bin have things like:
15:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Why doesn't strings at least look for null-termination?
15:40:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: POSIX actually says it can
15:40:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but most implementations don't
15:40:56 <elliott> to catch, uh, non-C software!
15:41:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a lot of strings are not null-terminated outside the C world
15:41:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (possibly because posix requires you to implement a flag that doesn't check for any kind of termination, so it's less work :))
15:41:29 <elliott> although gnu strings is, surprise surprise, SUPA ADVANCE:
15:41:30 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of UUUUUUU in lots of binaries. Maybe some sort of padding or something that is generated by some tool?
15:41:31 <elliott> The options to strings(1) are:
15:41:31 <elliott> -a This option causes strings to look for strings in all sections
15:41:31 <elliott> of the object file (including the (__TEXT,__text) section.
15:41:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it's meant to be -a.
15:42:06 * Phantom_Hoover still views GNU true as the best programming joke EVER.
15:42:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/strings.html
15:42:25 <elliott> Scan files in their entirety. If -a is not specified, it is implementation-defined what portion of each file is scanned for strings.
15:42:38 <elliott> incidentally gnu strings doesn't have -t.
15:42:47 <elliott> so technically ... OS X doesn't actually count as certified Unix
15:42:57 <elliott> except i guess they're probably quite relaxed about all the fiddly command line flags :
15:43:11 <elliott> or the machine was fitted with a special POSIX compliamt command set
15:43:29 <Vorpal> elliott, so probably not just nop padding then
15:43:30 <elliott> http://libposix.sourceforge.net/ why does this exist
15:43:58 <Vorpal> elliott, *nix in user space or what?
15:44:08 <elliott> Vorpal: libc that conforms strictly to posix 2008 with no extensions
15:44:16 <elliott> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/libposix/index.php?title=Compare
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15:45:05 <elliott> Yay, I got hand-approved for byuu's forum. SO LUCKY :p
15:45:08 <Vorpal> very stupid and ill defined criteria for most of those
15:46:07 <Vorpal> <elliott> Scan files in their entirety. If -a is not specified, it is implementation-defined what portion of each file is scanned for strings. <-- on linux I believe it skips some comment sections from ELF files or such
15:46:24 <Vorpal> "Do not scan only the initialized and loaded sections of object files; scan the whole files."
15:46:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is strange about that. It is a nop.
15:46:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, in fact a nop larger than 1 byte
15:47:08 <Vorpal> this is nothing unexpected. Compilers add padding between functions and so on.
15:47:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: disassemble with intel syntax urgh
15:47:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think you can tell objdump to
15:47:45 <elliott> failing that you could convert
15:48:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
15:48:33 <Vorpal> elliott, both intel and amd docs recommend that you use use as large nops as possible rather than many small. Better with one 7 byte nop than 7 one byte ones. Better for instruction pipeline if ever executed or something such iirc (as would be if it aligns the start of a loop, but not if you align the start of a function)
15:48:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, at _main. One would presume.
15:49:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, that's irrelevant.
15:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well _start is provided by crt0.o or some such file
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15:49:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. C programs are linked to crt whatever, which contains the _start symbol.
15:50:07 <elliott> well crt is always compiled in
15:50:13 <elliott> but it'll be dynamically linked to libc.
15:50:24 <Vorpal> no one claimed it would be dynamically linked to crt0.o ...
15:51:05 <fizzie> Anyhow, at least my /bin/true is stripped, so it doesn't have the executable's own symbols any more.
15:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, also, ELF(64) doesn't prepend _ to function names.
15:51:09 <Vorpal> how fun, my /bin/true seems completely stripped of all symbols
15:51:17 <Vorpal> presumably they are in some -dbg packet
15:51:54 <fizzie> Anyway, objdump -f reports the entry point address; start from there.
15:52:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, _start is still called _start
15:52:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just check with an unstripped file
15:53:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I never claimed it was
15:53:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that was elliott
15:55:01 <Vorpal> how tricky is un-inlineing?
15:55:38 <Vorpal> for something like lostking.b it could be an optimisation I believe.
15:57:43 <elliott> i think lostkng is goto-based, not procedures, no? maybe not
15:57:47 <cheater99> elliott: have you managed to compile bsnes?
15:58:05 <elliott> cheater99: yes on linux, no on os x
15:58:12 <elliott> and i'd rather just get linux working
15:58:16 <cheater99> i don't have 4.5 and when i try to compile wiht 4.4 it makes problems with syntax
15:58:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. I just noticed a lot of code snippets showing up again and again over the file
15:58:26 <cheater99> i don't want to install 4.5 either.
15:58:57 <elliott> cheater99: well, you have to.
15:58:59 <elliott> cheater99: gcc is very buggy.
15:59:14 <elliott> cheater99: besides, it needs a gcc with C++0x support
15:59:14 <Vorpal> elliott, why not clang?
15:59:18 <elliott> which 4.4 evidently doesn't have
15:59:35 <elliott> Vorpal: you have no idea how much emulator code gets badly compiled
15:59:45 <elliott> cheater99: the makefile specifically sets that gcc version when the OS is OS X, and for a reason
15:59:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, apart from "anti-Luddites" you mean?
16:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, people who view all new technology as wonderful and obviously superior to what went before.
16:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, is it doing something strange then?
16:00:21 <augur> tell me about that type system you mentioned earlier
16:00:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, unless you JIT or do evil mangling or similar it should work, no?
16:00:35 <Vorpal> elliott, in theory at least
16:00:40 <elliott> Vorpal: you have way too much faith in c compilers
16:00:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well duh, due to bugs it won't in practise
16:00:52 <elliott> cheater99: you need a compiler with C++0x lambda support. get a gcc 4.5 binary.
16:01:02 <elliott> cheater99: but no lambda support
16:01:08 <elliott> augur: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/category/code/ixi/ read from bottom to top
16:02:15 <Vorpal> elliott, C++? lambdas? wait a second... Do they give you a proper closure?
16:02:38 <elliott> cheater99: because he built his gui layer around them
16:02:52 <cheater99> haha @ php, php has recently received closures.
16:03:26 <fizzie> You can separately sort of tell which variables to capture.
16:03:36 <Vorpal> elliott, what language would you use to write a program that needs to do lots of ioctl()s and similar?
16:03:44 <cheater99> elliott: yeah, namespaces in php are largely laughable
16:04:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well, in the hypothetical situation that you would.
16:04:02 <elliott> Vorpal: or some ML dialect ... if I could get away with it ... maybe
16:04:22 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. So good FFI there?
16:04:29 <elliott> Vorpal: no, just bindings.
16:04:33 <elliott> i don;'t know of any ml ffis
16:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, go sleep then?
16:05:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you can join oerjan in his sleep schedule
16:05:24 <cheater99> both haskell and erlang have very good ffi
16:05:33 <elliott> if i slept now i would wake up at midnight
16:05:49 <cheater99> elliott: you'll get up at 4-5, which means you'll be allowed to oversleep for the next couple of weeks
16:13:33 <zzo38> I slept 24 hours once a week ago
16:15:03 <Vorpal> my "record" is about 16 hours I think
16:15:38 <elliott> zzo38: Had you not slept before?
16:16:23 <zzo38> elliott: I had slept before.
16:17:13 <cheater99> i think mine may be like 20 hours, but not sure
16:21:07 <zzo38> elliott: I think the previous day.
16:23:19 -!- lambdabot has joined.
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16:24:06 <nooga> i'm completely lost
16:24:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did you get lambdabot
16:24:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: permanent? :p
16:25:35 -!- shachaf has joined.
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16:25:49 <elliott> oh dear god Phantom_Hoover what did you do
16:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, THE PORTAL IN THE CHANNELS WAS NOT MEANT TO BE
16:26:14 <elliott> our topic is not very presentable for this occasion
16:26:34 -!- elliott has set topic: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
16:26:44 <elliott> act professional, everyone
16:27:32 <shachaf> Relax, people. I deal with esoteric languages all the time.
16:27:34 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:27:46 <shachaf> Today I'll probably be doing something with C++, for instance.
16:27:51 -!- Cale has joined.
16:28:14 <Cale> I just wanted to make a change to the code
16:28:25 <Cale> It's coming back up :)
16:28:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well of course, to be per channel it would be /part
16:28:38 <elliott> Cale: we apologise if it gets into one of our famous botloops.
16:28:45 <elliott> although i think lambdabot puts spaces in front of enough outputs to avoid that.
16:28:45 <shachaf> Cale: What, lambdabot doesn't support hot reloading of the startup code? :-)
16:28:54 <Vorpal> elliott, thankfully the last one was ages ago iirc?
16:28:57 <shachaf> elliott: Was that bug fixed?
16:29:19 <shachaf> ?where+ bug ?where haskell
16:29:27 <shachaf> Wait, she's not even in here.
16:29:40 <elliott> shachaf: I doubt she responds to herself.
16:29:48 <elliott> shachaf: But, er, if that works then yes, there is slight cause for concern.
16:29:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe the bots are configured to ignore each other. Also which one is @ ?
16:29:54 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, you need two lambdabots for that to work.
16:30:07 <elliott> shachaf: Say hello to EgoBot, HackEgo, and fungot.
16:30:07 <fungot> elliott: as for unix. ( at the problem: if a ranlib index is there really such a subdomain as far as i have
16:30:10 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
16:30:15 <elliott> fungot ignores all the bots though.
16:30:15 <fungot> elliott: i wonder if that isn't terrible, just to show a friend of mine heard shouted at his theatre, " it's _not_ a waste of my message was just too damn busy putting in multiple ways by the
16:30:18 <elliott> But HackEgo talks to everyone I think.
16:30:28 <Cale> shachaf: It was a different change I wanted to make (the flags for running mueval)
16:30:36 <elliott> (P.S. When is lambdabot going to be rewritten in Befunge?)
16:30:46 <elliott> (It's obviously the most elegant and concise language for writing IRC bots: http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)
16:30:46 <fungot> elliott: upon setting establishing a dial up connection, large memory and a few
16:30:52 <elliott> Vorpal: down again probably
16:30:59 <Cale> heh, wow, the joins take a long time
16:31:08 <elliott> Cale: I'm sure they'd go faster ... with Befunge!
16:31:15 <Cale> lambdabot's join list is getting kind of insane :P
16:31:25 <elliott> Psht, I remember when we were one of, like... 10 channels!
16:31:28 -!- lambdabot has joined.
16:31:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, your bots are not looking making a good impression.
16:31:34 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:31:38 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:31:46 <shachaf> Ah, lambadbot belongs here after all.
16:31:46 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",
16:31:47 <lambdabot> ":@echo !echo `echo echo"]} rest:"!echo `echo echo"
16:32:07 <shachaf> Vorpal: Well, @bf and @unlambda.
16:32:14 <shachaf> Maybe that's not esoteric enough for this channel, though.
16:32:26 <elliott> shachaf: EgoBot already does those! :-P
16:32:28 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:32:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and fungot too?
16:32:40 <fungot> Vorpal: we're still picking up the core file, i get a zillion copies of the directory, it is possible there's a new conceptual grouping of processes).
16:32:54 <elliott> shachaf: So is the Brainfuck 8-bit, 16-bit, bignum? Left-infinite or right-infinite tape? What EOF convention? (Any input?)
16:33:06 <elliott> shachaf: Do c and d interact properly in the Unlambda?
16:33:06 <lambdabot> darcs get http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot
16:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I always mix up {under,un}{load,lambda} for unknown reason
16:33:23 <shachaf> Clearly lambdabot should support Lazy K instead of unlambda.
16:33:26 <Silvah> Cale, you broke lambdabot!
16:34:15 <elliott> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/Plugin/BF.hs Wait, whre's the actual interpreter?
16:34:32 <elliott> (Heh @ it being breadbox's though.)
16:35:32 <shachaf> elliott: In the main directory.
16:36:35 <elliott> it looks like it's... right-infinite? I think so
16:36:42 <shachaf> It should support http://samuelhughes.com/boof/
16:37:00 <elliott> shachaf: It should support every language on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list.
16:37:10 <elliott> shachaf: But especially http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php.
16:37:10 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean?
16:37:12 <zzo38> elliott: Some of them are uncomputable.
16:37:16 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, note that a fair deal of those languages are not computable.
16:37:20 <elliott> zzo38: And it should support them best of all!
16:37:35 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: The latter is an alias for the former, as far as I can tell.
16:37:46 <elliott> Not like time travel is computable.
16:37:53 <elliott> Everyone with the same name is the same person!
16:37:55 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: No, it's "the other" Sam Hughes.
16:38:07 <nooga> idiotic mob killed me in my new cavern
16:38:14 <nooga> and i've lost tools and coal
16:38:19 <elliott> nooga: At least pretend this isn't #minecraft while we have guests.
16:38:41 <elliott> NO WE TALK ABOUT ESOTERIC LANGUAGES _ALL DAY_
16:38:48 <zzo38> Some of them, although computable, are not enough information to write implementation.
16:39:12 <elliott> shachaf: Oh man, that's as funny as that one time someone called Perl line noise!</cranky>
16:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, we have a well-established boundary between "esoteric" and "boring".
16:39:17 <elliott> woah, yesterday's log is really big
16:39:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Actually we discuss like a lot of various things in this channel, although esoteric programming is its main topic.
16:39:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Boring languages are the ones we don't like.
16:39:33 <elliott> Esoteric languages are the ones too repulsive to dislike.
16:40:00 <elliott> Redivider is actually quite snazzy I've always thought.
16:40:34 <elliott> shachaf: Really though, our favourite esoteric language, so theoretical and academic to be almost useless, yet so beautiful in its purity that it's almost a shame that it's impossible to write real programs in it...
16:41:11 <shachaf> elliott: Why? I doubt most of #haskell would seriously disagree with you.
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16:41:27 <shachaf> Maybe dons and the other Galois folks.
16:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you think Haskell isn't theoretically pure *enough*.
16:41:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well...yes...that is to say...
16:41:45 <elliott> LOOK JUST BECAUSE I WANT DEPENDENT TYPES
16:41:59 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Well, as far as languages that *try* to be theoretically pure, Haskell probably ranks pretty badly.
16:42:21 <elliott> I just say that 'cuz Conal's surname is my name.
16:42:26 <elliott> Have to stick together and all.
16:42:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A Haskell interpreter in Lazy K?
16:42:43 <shachaf> Is there any language that uses FRP in any meaningful way?
16:42:55 <Cale> Haskell is pretty much right on the boundary between research languages and languages that are practical to use
16:43:06 <shachaf> elliott: Is "elliott" /= "elliottt"?
16:43:27 <elliott> shachaf: In fact I have talked to elliottt before I believe. Quite confusing.
16:43:33 <Cale> Mathematica 7 has a sorta FRP-like thing which actually works, but isn't very theoretically nice.
16:43:42 <elliott> Cale: Plus it's Mathematica.
16:43:57 <elliott> Darn, now you know my secret.
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16:46:16 <shachaf> This channel seems like such a time-waster.
16:46:25 * shachaf doesn't play Minecraft, though.
16:46:35 <shachaf> So presumably when you show your true colors it'll subside.
16:47:43 <elliott> shachaf: That is, until you start playing.
16:47:58 <elliott> Actually we seem to have had a slight break in Minecraft chat due to Christmas. It has been replaced with silence.
16:48:06 <elliott> But I think it's picking up again.
16:48:17 <elliott> I swear we talk about other things sometimes too though, I just have no idea what they are.
16:49:30 <j-invariant> 16:42 < Cale> Haskell is pretty much right on the boundary between research languages and languages that are practical to use
16:49:38 <j-invariant> that makes it sound like haskell is almost useless
16:50:05 <Cale> j-invariant: Well, it basically just became useful for industry work :)
16:50:27 -!- Silvah has left (?).
16:50:34 <Cale> j-invariant: In the last few years or so.
16:50:37 <elliott> Cale: yeah sure, with your wimpy typesystem
16:51:20 <zzo38> I don't play Minecraft either.
16:51:22 <j-invariant> I really am amazed how people can use haskell types to set up the program to be correct in various ways
16:51:39 <zzo38> I did make up a lot of my own games, though.
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16:51:51 <j-invariant> every time I try to do that I find that I don't need some feature that don't exist
16:52:10 -!- distant_figure has left (?).
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16:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear GOD, why is it so hard to find a list of reasons why <language> sucks.
16:53:05 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: not abtsract high level correctness but simple stuff
16:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, PHP, C++, Java: these are all considered suckish. Yet it is nigh-impossible to find reasons for this.
16:55:12 <j-invariant> I don't think I could be bothered to actually type out all the code for the thing |I have in mind tohugh :(
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16:56:52 <Cale> Phantom_Hoover: The question of why those suck comes up all the time and has been answered on the web, mailing lists, and elsewhere countless times :)
16:57:20 <zzo38> j-invariant: What ideas do you have for making a game?
16:57:48 <Cale> Phantom_Hoover: The easiest reason that those three all suck is that they have no proper support for functions.
16:57:54 <j-invariant> zzo38: well not so much a game but just an program that lets you immerse yourself in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhombic_dodecahedral_honeycomb
16:58:25 <Cale> I mean, you could go into detail, but why nitpick when there's a gigantic glaring flaw :)
16:58:33 <zzo38> j-invariant: Have you tried any of my games? Feel free also to modify them.
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16:59:06 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes, any MegaZeux games will work if you compile MegaZeux for Ubuntu.
16:59:20 <Cale> We've known how to implement first class functions efficiently for decades, and we've known about their importance to abstraction since before the dawn of electronic computing. There's no excuse. :)
16:59:51 <elliott> Cale: also they have mutability
16:59:59 <shachaf> 08:59 < Rodney> The Moon is New. New moon in NetHack for the next 3 days.
17:00:00 <elliott> and weak to no type system
17:00:06 <shachaf> lambdabot needs to get this functionality.
17:00:21 <zzo38> j-invariant: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
17:00:38 <elliott> shachaf: psht, soon you will ascend from nethack to playing dwarf fortress. then you'll descend from playing dwarf fortress to lego^Wminecraft.
17:00:41 <zzo38> And here is the source code of MegaZeux so that it can be compiled: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux_src.zip
17:00:59 <j-invariant> zzo38: shouldn't I use http://sourceforge.net/projects/megazeux/files/megazeux/2.82b/megazeux_2.82b_amd64.deb/download ?
17:01:10 <shachaf> elliott: Dwarf Fortress? Minecraft? What about your liberty?
17:01:27 <elliott> shachaf: NetHack takes away the liberty referred to as "free time"
17:02:35 <zzo38> j-invariant: No. You can also get the latest version compiled from http://vault.digitalmzx.net/ but my version has some additional features and other things.
17:02:39 <shachaf> elliott: Dwarf Fortress doesn't provide the source code. Minecraft doesn't even provide the binary without payment.
17:02:55 <elliott> shachaf: And NetHack doesn't provide free time.
17:03:16 <zzo38> j-invariant: Maybe you can make a game?
17:03:20 <shachaf> elliott: Look, in this comparison you're not gaining anything by saying that one of them takes away your free time.
17:03:29 <shachaf> That's considered an invariant.
17:03:39 <elliott> shachaf: I'm not actually being serious
17:03:58 <zzo38> j-invariant: The music for the game? I typed in the music for the title screen and some others. I didn't compose the music myself though.
17:04:20 <shachaf> I had more or less stopped with NetHack until two people independently tried to get me to start again.
17:04:31 <zzo38> j-invariant: What kind of computer are you using that you don't know how to push F5 key?
17:04:39 <zzo38> You can also push "P", that also works.
17:04:57 * shachaf vanishes in a puff of orange smoke.
17:05:00 <zzo38> (In case the F5 key is broken)
17:07:11 <j-invariant> zzo38: I don't know if this is a bug I am stuck
17:07:45 <zzo38> j-invariant: Where did you get stuck? Describe.
17:08:24 <zzo38> j-invariant: That is a dark room. Push T to light a torch.
17:08:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:08:35 <zzo38> (Also push H for help)
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17:11:12 <zzo38> j-invariant: Also, if you have a DOS emulator, you might want to try the CGA Collection games (there are many different ones, but they are all small games). Here is a wiki article about the Super ASCII MZX Town series: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
17:11:43 <zzo38> Which statements in the list in the "Criticize" section do you think are true and which do you think are untrue?
17:12:41 <zzo38> j-invariant: OK continue playing Super ASCII MZX Town. It is good game but it is difficult. If you get dead you can try again. Remember to save game.
17:13:08 <zzo38> (Push F9 to quicksave, F3 to save in a different filename (in case you want multiple save files), F10 to quickload, and F4 to select a file to restore a save game.)
17:13:11 <j-invariant> "DID YOU KNOW THAT 100% OF THE PEOPLE THAT ENTER THE TOWER OF DOOM DIE?" lol
17:15:36 <elliott> j-invariant: um by pressing them?
17:15:46 <zzo38> j-invariant: What kind of computer are you using?
17:16:06 <j-invariant> there are pictures on the Fkeys like mute, audio up, turn off internet... I don't know why
17:16:14 <elliott> j-invariant: mac by any chance?
17:16:20 <elliott> j-invariant: that sends the actual f key
17:16:29 <elliott> works with most laptops that do that shit
17:16:48 <zzo38> j-invariant: You might also have to change a BIOS setting. Some laptop computers allow changing this mode by BIOS setting.
17:19:17 <zzo38> j-invariant: Because that level (and some other levels) are timed. When you run out of time you lose 2 health points.
17:19:55 <j-invariant> even when I set display mode to health I don't see health
17:20:21 <zzo38> j-invariant: That is because you have 100 or more. If you have less than 100, the face representing the player displays the tens digit of the health.
17:22:06 <zzo38> (You can also push ENTER to display status)
17:27:44 <elliott> fizzie: Was that arbitrary-placement thing fixed by SSI?
17:28:14 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes, F9 is quicksave, it saves in the same filename previously selected. F3 allows you to enter a new filename to save, in case you want multiple save files.
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17:29:25 <zzo38> j-invariant: No, sorry. (Next time you reboot the computer, check the BIOS setting for the setting of F-keys.)
17:30:28 <zzo38> Still, changing the BIOS setting might make it easier to press those keys.
17:33:49 <sspm> how to install mysql on ubuntu 10.10?
17:34:24 <zzo38> sspm: Probably something like: sudo apt-get install mysql
17:34:45 <sspm> how to start orca software?
17:35:01 <zzo38> sspm: Did you try typing in "orca"? Did you look through the menus?
17:36:01 <sspm> i tried to install it but it didn't work...!
17:37:25 <zzo38> sspm: Maybe you need a different package name. In Ubuntu, if you try to type in a name of a program that is not installed, it will tell you what the package name is.
17:38:10 <fizzie> elliott: Yes; it no longer accepts place-block messages if you aren't holding that particular block.
17:39:40 <sspm> once i installed orca,will it start automatically or some setting has to be done...
17:40:09 <zzo38> sspm: Do you know if there is a IRC channel for orca? Did you read the manual page for orca?
17:40:18 <zzo38> I don't know about that program.
17:40:39 <j-invariant> I got to the lava two screens past the forest
17:42:02 <zzo38> j-invariant: OK. Any questions about that screen? Do you mean the one where they sell the inappropriate keys?
17:42:15 <cheater99> sspm: sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda
17:45:15 <zzo38> j-invariant: You won't be able to continue at that level until you find the purple keycard (not because you need it for this level, but for an entirely different reason). (Hint: When a transporter is blocked you will move to the corresponding one on the other side. This might help you find the keycard?)
17:46:00 <sspm> is it the command to start orca?\
17:46:12 <zzo38> sspm: cheater99's command is wrong that surely won't help you install the program. Did you try "man orca"?
17:46:53 <zzo38> sspm: Also, is there a webpage or book or something for that program? You can also look there.
17:47:25 <cheater99> oh right, i was missing count=10240
17:47:31 <cheater99> sspm: sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240
17:47:39 <cheater99> in fact you can couple it with apt-get
17:48:27 <cheater99> sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240; sudo apt-get orca; halt -pfw
17:50:22 <zzo38> sspm: Did you know cheater99 is cheating?
17:50:47 <zzo38> So don't do those commands!
17:51:16 <cheater99> zzo38: it will install orca on his ubuntu, not sure what you mean
17:51:40 <cheater99> it's not like it'll erase his hard disk.
17:53:19 <zzo38> cheater99: I doubt it will install anything. Maybe "sudo apt-get install orca" might work, though. Your long command will not.
17:53:42 <cheater99> zzo38: well, let him try it and see who's right
17:54:23 <zzo38> cheater99: I suggest he tries my way first; your way might mess up his computer.
17:54:38 <sspm> to whom should i trust?
17:54:39 <cheater99> apt-get can't mess up a computer, it uses debian packages!
17:55:02 <zzo38> cheater99: But dd can. Also, apt-get requires more parameters, I think.
17:55:32 <cheater99> zzo38: apt-get is smart enough on its own.
17:55:50 <zzo38> sspm: Just try "man apt-get" then if you want to read the manual page to make sure.
17:56:00 <sspm> ok now just tell me command for starting orca
17:56:11 <zzo38> sspm: Did you try typing "orca" or "man orca"?
17:56:17 <cheater99> sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240; sudo apt-get orca; halt -pfw
17:56:36 <zzo38> cheater99: No that is wrong!
17:56:54 <cheater99> stop trying to make sspm install man on his computer!!!
17:57:36 <zzo38> cheater99: I am not trying to make sspm install man on his computer. man is probably already installed and it won't mess up.
17:58:06 <cheater99> <zzo38> sspm: Just try "man apt-get" << uh huh and then his computer doesn't boot
17:59:10 <zzo38> cheater99: It will boot if nothing was damaged (this includes both physical damage and damage due to programming).
17:59:43 <cheater99> zzo38: well then why are you telling him to use man?
18:00:03 <zzo38> cheater99: To read the manual page so that he can try to understand how it works.
18:00:23 <cheater99> yeah, read it after his computer melts down
18:00:32 <j-invariant> if you are worried about whether man is dangerous read man man first
18:01:24 <zzo38> cheater99: His computer won't melt unless he overheats it.
18:01:59 <cheater99> j-invariant: that would probably complately disintegrate his PCB
18:02:34 <zzo38> sspm: If you are worries about whether man is dangerous, go to the computer store near you, and ask the people who work there. Maybe they don't know; but it is better than nothing.
18:04:21 <j-invariant> zzo38: what do you think about the rhombic dodecahedron honeycomb
18:04:41 <zzo38> j-invariant: I think you might try making a game with it if you want to.
18:05:35 -!- sspm has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:09:41 <zzo38> Did I type the license exception properly? http://sprunge.us/PMNW
18:11:51 <elliott> cheater99: dude i think you just wiped sspm's disk
18:11:57 <elliott> except he didn't use sudo probably
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18:23:33 <j-invariant> "yooo #VIDEOPOSTERID#, take a look at "stream episodes (DOT) net" to be able to enjoy complete tv shows and movies considering that youtube won't permit these videos." .. sigh
18:23:51 <j-invariant> might as well just scream " I AM A SPAMMER"
18:24:44 <j-invariant> lugh you have supposed to have a youtube account in order to flag spam
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18:32:41 <Slereah> Something about quantum theory and spirits or something, no?
18:32:42 <j-invariant> "The only analogy to the Emperor's New Clothes in operation about this subject is that no one has seriously condemned Penrose's mystifying jaunt into neuroscience as the ridiculous crap that it is"
18:32:55 <j-invariant> "The notion that the brain violates Godel's Theorem, and therefore cannot be represented by a computable function, and therefore it must be QUANTUM is fractally retarded. Not one aspect of the story makes any sense. I've always been mystified by the idea."
18:33:10 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/evyew/roger_penrose_was_dropped_down_a_class_for_being/c1beffe
18:33:27 <Slereah> Can't be too harsh on the guy, though
18:33:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:33:38 <Slereah> Many big names in science tend to do that once in a while
18:33:50 <Slereah> Venture outside their field of expertise and start going crazy
18:34:28 <j-invariant> Are Penrose tiles useful or just beautiful?
18:34:28 <j-invariant> My interest in the tiles has to do with the idea of a universe controlled by very simple forces, even though we see complications all over the place. The tilings follow conventional rules to make complicated patterns. It was an attempt to see how the complicated could be satisfied by very simple rules that reflect what we see in the world.
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18:34:32 <zzo38> I think it is partially quantum. (Whether it violates Godel's Theorem I do not know, though.) Also, it is possible to emulate quantum computer on a classical computer but it uses up a lot more time and space.
18:35:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, well, of course it's partially quantum. So is everything.
18:35:47 <j-invariant> zzo38: I thought they sort of ruled out the possibility of any quantum mechanical effect being crucial to the functioning of the brain - but I watched some quantum biology talks where they refute the heat&size arguments in photosynthesis - so it's tricky
18:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> The question is whether or not it's quantum enough to make it noncomputable.
18:35:54 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes, but not quite what I was trying to mean.
18:36:03 <Slereah> zzo38 : Everything is entirely quantum
18:36:08 <Slereah> That is what shit is made of!
18:36:25 <j-invariant> "quantum" in this case means having an essential non-classical operation
18:36:37 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: But I think quantum computation is *not* uncomputable? Isn't it???
18:37:41 <j-invariant> yeah quantum mechanical computation is turing equivalent
18:38:23 <j-invariant> Any super-turing computer in nature would be a massive discovery, something on the same scale of importance as discovering evolution or gravity
18:39:05 <zzo38> The essential quantum ingredient is one from which emerges (among other things) quantum free will (which is different from classical free will). And then there are some other things too. Including quantum consciousness, quantum evolution, quantum immortality, and Heisenberg.
18:39:41 <j-invariant> when you say "free will", that's a technical term isn't it?
18:39:52 <coppro> j-invariant: how do you define "turing equivalent"?
18:39:52 <elliott> zzo38: There is no such thing as quantum free will.
18:39:53 <zzo38> Of course, these are emergent phenomena, which have partially to do with required quantum phenomena.
18:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> I remain convinced that the very concept of free will is stupid.
18:40:02 <elliott> zzo38: Congrats, you're spewing quantumbabble.
18:40:12 <coppro> j-invariant: seriously
18:40:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: With MAGIC
18:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, you were expecting well-reasoned, sane thought from zzo38?
18:40:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I don't expect quantum crackpottery.
18:40:40 <j-invariant> coppro: if you can simulate a turing machine with it, and a turing machine can simulate it
18:41:07 <zzo38> elliott: I think there is a such thing as quantum free will. There is also such thing as classical free will. But I do not believe in classical free will. I do believe in quantum free will.
18:41:09 <j-invariant> coppro: with QM you need to put the condition that the result is correct with probability 1-epsilon
18:41:20 <elliott> zzo38: What is your evidence?
18:41:55 <elliott> zzo38: To start with, I would like a definition of quantum free will.
18:42:14 <zzo38> elliott: A mathematical definition, do you mean?
18:42:23 <elliott> zzo38: Any definition, so long as it is precise.
18:42:33 <elliott> j-invariant: I doubt he means it in that sense.
18:42:36 <j-invariant> nothing to do with that spiritual nonsense
18:42:54 <coppro> j-invariant: yes, but they are not equivalent if you're including a probability
18:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[Penrose notes that the present home of computing lies more in the tangible world of classical mechanics than in the imponderable realm of quantum mechanics]] — WP
18:43:36 <j-invariant> coppro: really? can you elaborate because I thought that was a pretty sound definition
18:44:04 <j-invariant> 18:35 < j-invariant> "quantum" in this case means having an essential non-classical operation
18:44:27 <j-invariant> e.g. exploiting entanglement, interference etc.
18:44:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> j-invariant, don't microchips kind of rely on energy levels or somesuch?
18:45:18 <elliott> hmm, are there super-turing computers that do not solve the halting problem?
18:45:41 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover_: I don't really know aboult microchips but I think you can understand them classically
18:46:03 <zzo38> elliott: I am figuring it out now.
18:46:30 <elliott> j-invariant: actually they've had to account for quantum tunneling in recent designs
18:46:37 <elliott> because the parts have got so damn small
18:46:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: bCuZ 0f m4jik
18:46:55 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover_: the whole thing is bullshit
18:46:56 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I doubt it violates Godel. It doesn't have to.
18:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, just get on with defining quantum free will so we can tear it apart.
18:47:38 <j-invariant> http://www.1729.com/consciousness/math-journal.html
18:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> j-invariant, so wait, he just says "the brain violates Gödel" and doesn't justify?
18:48:04 <elliott> j-invariant: that's a joke yes
18:48:25 <elliott> it links to http://www.1729.com/consciousness/godel.html
18:49:05 <j-invariant> coppro: I probaly need to brush up on basics of quantum computing
18:49:42 <elliott> http://amazingformula.com/ this is the greatest thing ever
18:50:29 <coppro> j-invariant: a quantum TM /can/ be simulated by a probabilistic TM, but not fully accurately by a non-deterministic TM
18:51:09 <j-invariant> so you are saying the turing machine is stronger than the QTM?
18:51:42 <coppro> no, that QTMs are quivalent to NTMs, which can do more than TMs (/but/ a TM can caclulate anything an NTM can, just it might be slower)
18:52:08 <j-invariant> your notion of equivalence takes complexity into account/
18:52:08 <coppro> for instance, the program "halt with 50% probability" cannot be implemented in a TM
18:52:25 <elliott> 18:51 coppro: for instance, the program "halt with 50% probability" cannot be implemented in a TM
18:52:29 <coppro> if you take complexity into account, QTMs are stronger than both NTMs and TMs
18:52:36 <elliott> consider any program written in PHP
18:54:10 <j-invariant> can you write a random number generator with a quantum TM?
18:54:45 <coppro> Simply construct the state 1/sqrt(2)|0> + 1/sqrt(2)|1> and measure it
18:54:52 <coppro> you have a 50-50 chance of getting either 1 or 0
18:55:34 <coppro> thus a QTM is stronger than a TM
18:56:04 <zzo38> Also, true turing machines are not possible in anything that can actually be physically constructed, anyways.
18:56:23 <elliott> zzo38: Have you defined quantum free will yet?
18:56:37 <coppro> entanglement is more fun though
18:56:47 <coppro> 1/sqrt(2)|00> + 1/sqrt(2)|11> ... what?
18:56:58 * coppro loves having a course in 25-year old math at his school
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18:59:54 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, you can join oerjan in his sleep schedule
18:59:59 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaa
19:01:21 <oerjan> i have an appointment tomorrow and by my calculations it seems impossible to get more than at most 5 hours sleep in between
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19:02:52 <zzo38> Quantum free will is an emergent phenomena. You have to treat different ontologies as being different faces of the same underlying thing. Also, free will is not as free as perfectly; the laws of physics are still followed, including all probabilities are still correct and so on. Neurons still work and such.
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19:03:11 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover_: it was not sarcasm
19:03:21 <coppro> having a 10-year-old course on 25-year-old math is /awesome/
19:03:27 <zzo38> Entanglement is also relevant.
19:03:30 <elliott> zzo38: OK, but you have not defined what quantum free will is.
19:03:39 <elliott> zzo38: You have just said that it is an emergent phenomenon, not told us what it actually is.
19:03:42 <elliott> zzo38: What is quantum free will?
19:03:59 <oerjan> <coppro> if you take complexity into account, QTMs are stronger than both NTMs and TMs
19:04:29 <oerjan> um, it is not known what relation there is between QTM and NTM
19:05:26 <zzo38> elliott: Entanglement with non-existent phenomena. You use the same equations as normal entanglement, because it *is* normal entanglement; but it an infinite metaphysical mathematical series with things from other possible and impossible universes.
19:05:29 <oerjan> BQP is not known to contain NP, nor vice versa. BQP is contained in PSPACE though iirc
19:05:29 <elliott> "the human mind (even within the realm of pure mathematics) infinitely surpasses the powers of any finite machine, or else there exist absolutely unsolvable Diophantine problems of the type specified [above]" —Goedel
19:05:55 <zzo38> You have to treat it that life and universe creates each other, rather than only one way permitted.
19:05:57 <elliott> zzo38: So, any entanglement with non-existent phenomena is "quantum free will"?
19:06:03 <coppro> zzo38: what the hell is metaphysical
19:06:08 <elliott> Is that the definition of quantum free will? "Entanglement with non-existent phenomena"?
19:06:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:06:26 <oerjan> (see: subtitle of scott aaronson's blog)
19:07:23 <zzo38> See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly.
19:08:00 <elliott> zzo38: No, no, I think I'll just come to an even better realisation of the fact that what you said has no grounding in science or logic, makes no sense at all, and should not be considered by any sane or insane person.
19:08:03 <zzo38> This means the universe created itself by a causality loop and destroys itself by a causality loop.
19:08:14 <elliott> You seem to be talking about something else entirely now.
19:08:20 <elliott> I suppose that is proof of the interconnectedness of all things?
19:08:55 <zzo38> elliott: No, it is the meta-lemma.
19:09:12 <elliott> zzo38: are you trolling me
19:09:23 <zzo38> elliott: I am not intending to.
19:10:02 <zzo38> Well, it is not my intention. Sorry.
19:12:17 <zzo38> It is based on the hard problem of consciousness (actually a slight variation) creates the universe and vice versa. The problem is therefore unsolvable. But so are many other problems.
19:12:31 <elliott> j-invariant: godel is stupid too!
19:12:38 <elliott> j-invariant: btw can you help me understand this sentence "See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly."
19:13:19 <elliott> j-invariant: so have I and I recovered
19:13:23 <elliott> but i guess his mind might be more impressionable?
19:13:27 <zzo38> s/cosmology loop/causality loop/
19:13:38 <zzo38> Sorry, I made a typing mistake that is why you cannot understand it at first.
19:13:44 <elliott> zzo38: i still don't understand :)
19:13:56 <j-invariant> coincidentally, Godel proved that relativity admits a unuiverse with time loops through every point in spacetime
19:13:59 <elliott> what on earth has that page got to do with causality.
19:14:26 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe I cannot explain it very well.
19:14:36 <elliott> zzo38: are you sure _you_ understand what it means?
19:15:02 <zzo38> elliott: No, I don't understand it perfectly either. But I understand it better than you.
19:15:16 <j-invariant> coppro: iis it really correct to say the quantum turing machine computes more things than normal turing machine?
19:15:21 <elliott> zzo38: I very much doubt that; true understanding almost always admits even a very glossed-over explanation.
19:15:45 <elliott> Since you cannot explain it in any way at all that anyone else can understand, I find it incredibly unlikely that you understand it at all, or that it is even a well-defined concept.
19:16:32 <coppro> j-invariant: They have the same computational power
19:16:43 <zzo38> elliott: But I did explain it!
19:16:44 <coppro> j-invariant: but a QTM can give stochastic output
19:16:52 <coppro> (also a QTM is faster)
19:17:06 <elliott> zzo38: No! You just gave me a few sentences that didn't make any sense, and one extra one that made _no_ sense to do with reversing Wikipedia articles and writing an equation based on that or something.
19:17:37 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know how to write equation for entanglement?
19:18:22 <elliott> zzo38: How do I reverse the Wikipedia article into a causality loop exactly?
19:18:38 <zzo38> elliott: Not the article, but the idea discussed by the article.
19:18:59 <coppro> zzo38: I know the definition of two entangled qubits
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19:19:41 <elliott> zzo38: as far as I can tell that biocentrism thing is just a quack unfalsifiable theory by an irrelevant crackpot.
19:19:45 <zzo38> Write the entanglement equation, and then assume that one part is not part of the universe. And then assume that is also an entanglement with another object in a doubly-non-existing universe, and so on.
19:20:02 <coppro> no, that's not how entanglement works
19:20:03 <elliott> zzo38: you are still making zero sense.
19:20:07 <coppro> zzo38: are you a tensor product?
19:20:15 <j-invariant> zzo38: information can't flow through through an entanglement "channel"
19:20:28 * Phantom_Hoover_ ponders how elliott was the one who ended up in the looney bin.
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19:20:34 <elliott> i think my head is going to explode unless zzo38 starts making sense really soon
19:20:41 <j-invariant> zzo38: although the proof of this is a fair bit beyond my knowledge
19:20:48 <zzo38> elliott: I also thought biocentrism is unfalsifyable, but they say it isn't. I'm not sure I believe them. But it is not important because it is based on philosophy instead.
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19:21:04 <zzo38> j-invariant: Exactly. Information is not *supposed* to flow through an entanglement "channel".
19:21:09 <elliott> zzo38: unfalsifiable theories cannot hide behind "philosophy"
19:21:15 <elliott> zzo38: I say that the universe is duckcentric.
19:21:19 <elliott> zzo38: The universe only exists because of ducks.
19:21:30 <elliott> zzo38: ^ this makes just as much sense and is just as falsifiable as "biocentrism"
19:21:30 <j-invariant> I'm sort of lost wrt this quantum TM stuff
19:21:34 <elliott> zzo38: therefore you have to consider it too
19:21:37 <zzo38> But correlation does.
19:21:49 <zzo38> See? It is correlation.
19:21:50 <j-invariant> it's not clear what hte "output" of a QTM is
19:22:01 <j-invariant> if you measure everything at the end, you do not have a function
19:22:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> How do quantum computers work from a many-worlds perspective?
19:22:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: the way they normally do?
19:22:35 <j-invariant> if you consider the probaiblity distribution then the output is a continous function (which is incomparable to the discrete output of a turing machine)
19:22:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: i prefer many worlds to copenhagen FWIW
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19:22:58 <zzo38> elliott: I understand what you are saying about biocentrism. In my opinion it is a philosophical position, not a scientific one. Some people disagree. In my opinion however, biocentrism is wrong, the better way is it creates each-other and itself by causality loop.
19:23:02 <j-invariant> also: weird... physically classical mechanics is continuous and quantum is discrete: but the computational models are switched!
19:23:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, so how does one view quantum computers from many worlds?
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19:23:08 <elliott> zzo38: why is life relevant
19:23:15 <elliott> zzo38: why not the universe and rocks create each other
19:23:20 <elliott> zzo38: why not the universe and mountains create each other
19:23:23 <elliott> why the universe and life?
19:23:26 <elliott> can you defend that at all?
19:23:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I don't understand the question.
19:23:38 <elliott> j-invariant: no, copenhagen is "magic physical wave-function collapse"
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19:23:44 <zzo38> elliott: Rocks too! Mountains too! But their kind of free will is lesser because it is lesser usable. It is more solid state.
19:23:59 <elliott> rocks created the universe because they have free will?
19:24:04 <elliott> but not really because they don't have free enough will?
19:24:06 <zzo38> But if the hard problem did not exist then neither would the universe.
19:24:18 <zzo38> Therefore, life is required too, for certain definitions of "life".
19:24:19 <elliott> and your theory is incomprehensible.
19:24:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> I am against many worlds because it makes my excuse for not doing homework fallacious.
19:24:42 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes (actually a slight variation of such).
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19:26:30 <zzo38> Or, maybe, it should be called the "hard mystery"?
19:26:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, with Copenhagen I can say "ah, but I used a quantum RNG to decide whether or not to do my homework, so you can't observe it without collapsing the waveform which makes it your fault if I haven't done it."
19:27:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Do you actually say that.
19:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I tried it on my physics teacher, who was amused enough that I dodged a detention.
19:27:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: i was unaware that that was even possible
19:28:01 <zzo38> j-invariant: No. It is unexplainable.
19:28:24 <j-invariant> any two photon/antiphoton(which is just a photon again) pairs in different universes can interact
19:28:30 <oerjan> <j-invariant> if you measure everything at the end, you do not have a function <-- that's afaik what you do. and while some of the result may be random, not all needs to be. or may only be different with a bounded probability. so you can use it to compute.
19:28:34 <zzo38> It has nothing to do with how smart you are, though.
19:28:48 <j-invariant> then why is it that there is not so much random noise throughout the universe to ruin everything?
19:28:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: dodging detention by being a smartass :)
19:29:06 <j-invariant> oerjan: that's what I started with but coppro objected
19:29:07 <elliott> zzo38: nothing is unexplainable except the meaningless.
19:29:16 * elliott waits for oerjan to pounce on him for that.
19:29:45 <nooga> my car froze to the parking
19:30:49 <oerjan> elliott: i might pounce if i understood it ;D
19:32:02 <oerjan> j-invariant: note, by "everything", you should mean "all the final qubits". you certainly don't measure the quantum state function.
19:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> Conclusion: we need to find the number of Canada's men in white coats as soon as possible.
19:34:03 <zzo38> Let's say you have a binary state like |ab> with |00>=[1;0;0;0] and |11>=[0;0;0;1] then if you have [1;0;0;1] and then normalized then are dependent on each other. Except that for quantum free will you need an infinite state vector that describes things that do not exist, even inside of the non-existent universe to which is being referred. Whether or not this number is countably infinite is unknown, but it is infinite.
19:35:51 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders if he should bother even to parse that, let alone interpret it.
19:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> "Interpret" really isn't the word to use in the context of extracting meaning from language.
19:36:35 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: How well do you understand Dirac notation?
19:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> After all, you're really compiling from words to brainese.
19:38:47 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Can you place the ignores in an initialization file?
19:38:56 <j-invariant> zzo38: I donot know what you mean by quantum free will
19:39:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: yes they do
19:39:12 <j-invariant> zzo38: but I think it's not the same free will as in Conways Free will theorem
19:39:37 <zzo38> j-invariant: But I explained it a bit! Try to do the math and see if that helps.
19:39:44 <elliott> zzo38: there is no math in whaty ou said.
19:40:02 <zzo38> elliott: There is math in what I said.
19:41:14 <zzo38> j-invariant: The math for quantum physics. I didn't write out all the equations but you can find them in various books or Wikipedia, and then work them with the changes I have specified to see what happens.
19:41:40 <j-invariant> zzo38: you would have to write up this whole idea in a .txt or something - but don't do that if you don't want to
19:42:11 <elliott> zzo38: unfortunately you have been unable to give a coherent explanation of the "theory" to even _near_ the detail required for anyone else to even begin to try to understand it.
19:42:18 <zzo38> j-invariant: Or, perhaps, a TeX document so that I can include mathematical formulas in it.
19:43:28 <zzo38> elliott: Actually you can understand it but you have to do it yourself. Not everything is explainable in words directly. Therefore you have to do it indirectly.
19:44:07 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I have tried LaTeX it doesn't work well. Also LaTeX is too much too many things. And even Plain TeX is slightly large, but I use Plain TeX it is OK.
19:45:47 <zzo38> j-invariant: You do? Which levels have you reached yet? (Note this is a full length game and difficult, with 90 screens. Other games I have created are short ones that are more like arcade games or level puzzle games.)
19:46:07 <j-invariant> zzo38: that's as far as I have got - I am not good at these games at all but it is fun
19:47:27 <zzo38> j-invariant: Right. You could try the CGA Collection games, in which you can try for win/lose/score and try various levels and stuff, because they are a different kind of games. (You need a DOS emulator to run them)
19:47:56 <zzo38> (Or else, boot into FreeDOS if you don't mind doing that)
19:48:20 <j-invariant> I don't what happens when I push the switch
19:48:40 <zzo38> j-invariant: What switch are you refering to?
19:48:45 <coppro> zzo38: please link to a precise description of your theory
19:49:03 <zzo38> coppro: I don't have one yet. Sorry.
19:49:14 * pikhq would like to stab everyone who writes emulators using a plugin architecture.
19:49:26 <j-invariant> both of them on the screen with the person who wants a flashy diamnd
19:50:24 <pikhq> coppro: It makes using the emulator a royal pain, and simply *having* a plugin architecture usually compromises emulation accuracy and compatibility.
19:50:33 <zzo38> j-invariant: They make the doors near the flashy diamond to be passable.
19:50:41 <zzo38> (You need all three switches)
19:50:55 <pikhq> (I say "usually" because it is of course *possible* to do that right, but nobody ever does.)
19:52:21 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes, you have done it wrong. Hint: You *need* to find the purple keycard. (Hint: It is behind the tree.)
19:52:50 <pikhq> Seriously, have you *tried* Playstation emulation?
19:53:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: No, a tree on the same screen.
19:53:36 <zzo38> But if you have touched even one switch you have missed it and have to restore the saved game file.
19:54:49 <j-invariant> there doesn't seem to be anything to do with the purple keycard
19:55:28 <zzo38> j-invariant: The purple keycard is not used in this level, but it is important to go behind the tree where it is found.
19:58:19 <zzo38> j-invariant: Do you know how the transporters work? Or how the potions work?
20:00:25 <zzo38> OK. If a transporter is blocked (and the blocking object cannot be pushed out of the way), you are transported through to the corresponding one facing in the other direction at the other end (regardless of whether or not the other one is blocked in the pointing direction; but it must not be blocked in the opposite direction (where you end up from the other transport)). (Pushable objects can also be transported.)
20:00:35 * Phantom_Hoover_ hates it when people say "two is the only even prime" as if it's interesting.
20:01:42 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover_: it is more interesting than it seems
20:01:50 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I saw the same thing on a Jyte claim. At first I believed it but now I think "two is the only even prime" is in fact an interesting statement there are some important theorems which do not work without considering this fact fundamentally.
20:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> It follows trivially from the definitions of primality and evenness.
20:02:36 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes it does follow. That doesn't mean it is not important though!
20:02:46 <oerjan> three is the only threven prime
20:03:40 <pumpkin> Phantom_Hoover_: damn right
20:03:57 <elliott> pumpkin: oh god you're in here too?
20:04:09 <pumpkin> 7 is the only prime that ends in 7 in base 14
20:04:25 <oerjan> elliott: IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE WHERE PEOPLE CARE MORE ABOUT THREE THAN TWO
20:05:03 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Those statements are correct, and seemingly similar, but actually there is an important meaning for "2 is the only even prime" in some other mathematical stuff.
20:05:22 <elliott> oerjan: threven is the best type of number
20:05:28 <elliott> oerjan: can we talk about threven numbers daily
20:06:00 <oerjan> elliott: sure we _can_
20:06:15 <oerjan> i think it is entirely physically possible
20:06:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: damn base 41
20:07:34 <oerjan> seven is the most severe prime
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20:12:00 <zzo38> :Atimewarpto2020!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com :elliott!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com Look
20:12:31 <zzo38> Same as :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com
20:13:45 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I do not know what you are refering to.
20:14:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, how fortunate! I have no idea what you're talking about.
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20:16:38 <oerjan> greetings, Phantom__Hoover obviously totally unrelated to Phantom_Hoover
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20:18:19 <j-invariant> zzo38: I think your game is too hard for me but I will play more tommorow
20:18:53 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes it is difficult and you might not understand well without some experience with MegaZeux.
20:20:58 <zzo38> Try the CGA Collection if you want to try some small games (not full length games), such as Star Stacker and so on.
20:23:10 <zzo38> I did make some games with Game Maker but I should rewrite them in C instead or something like that. Or possibly write a converter into a similar but free format. Such as: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/xnazzyball.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/DiskCatch2.png
20:24:00 <zzo38> Here is the CGA Collection files in case you are interested in the DOS files: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip
20:24:53 <j-invariant> zzo38: the first one looks especially good
20:25:06 <j-invariant> I don't know how you ahve the energy to write all these programs
20:25:20 <j-invariant> my problem with programming is I give up quite early on
20:25:23 <zzo38> j-invariant: You mean of the screenshots?
20:26:09 <zzo38> (The icons are public domain, I just made a game of it. Also, it is possible to have multiple pieces in one place, so it cannot be done with ASCII mode.)
20:26:21 <j-invariant> zzo38: if these are EXE files I don't think I can run them on ubuntu
20:26:25 <zzo38> j-invariant: Try running it in Wine if you want to, but I'm not sure it will work.
20:26:34 <j-invariant> nevermind I will try them on a DOS emulator
20:26:56 <zzo38> Try the CGA Collection games in a DOS emulator. (The screenshots are for Windows games)
20:27:18 <zzo38> If you make any new levels for any of the CGA Collection games, please post your levels!
20:29:35 * Ilari goes and tries those CGA collection games first in DOSBox and then in rerecording x86 emulator...
20:30:31 <zzo38> cheater99: Hay you! Stop cheating, please!
20:34:04 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes. It isn't really a very good game though, the others are better. But at least it can make you laugh. So, I did include it anyways.
20:35:17 <zzo38> j-invariant: Can you guess what you are supposed to do in the games which I posted screenshots, without playing these games?
20:35:54 <zzo38> j-invariant: You may look at CGACOLL.DOC (a plain text file) for more information about some of the games in the CGA Collection.
20:38:57 <zzo38> j-invariant: In the first screenshot, your piece is a spider you have to pick up one of each suit. And don't get killed by a rock!
20:39:30 <zzo38> In the second screenshot, your piece is the white ball. You can move the white ball to make rectangle with each corner on the same color, to make hole and catch the colored balls. If colored balls collide with white ball then you lose a life.
20:40:03 <zzo38> In the third screenshot, you have to move the cursor to catch the disks and avoid touching skulls. The pieces all move by themself in various direction and speeds.
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20:49:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what top speed?
20:51:34 <zzo38> j-invariant: Have you added any levels to the existing games in CGA Collection?
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20:53:19 <zzo38> j-invariant: Did you know, the MUTCHNAM game has ten billion built-in levels (yes, really, it does).
20:54:10 <nooga> i've just encountered zombie spawner
20:54:16 <zzo38> Have you tried any of the games other than FATHER, yet?
20:54:43 <j-invariant> most of htem I could not figure out how to play
20:55:06 <zzo38> j-invariant: Which ones? Any opinion? Read CGACOLL.DOC for some instructions about the game. You can also ask me specific questions.
20:59:44 <zzo38> Please note that STARWARS is a 2-players game. You need someone else on the same computer in order to play. (The others are all 1-players)
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21:29:22 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life.
21:30:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, that statement made me suspicious. What is it?
21:30:42 <Gregor> The greatest six seconds of YOUR life, if you watch it.
21:32:54 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: Greatest six seconds of my life.
21:33:45 <GreaseMonkey> perhaps you could invest in implanting a nifty feature that xchat has?
21:34:31 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I cannot write an AI that uses quantum free will, although I might be able to simulate it in a turing machine connected to a pure random number generator. However, turing machine is not even possible to be constructed in any real computer, only approximations can. (Also, I am not good enough at it to write such a program anyways)
21:35:29 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: AKA "law of least surprise".
21:36:13 <GreaseMonkey> speaking of AI... do you know of an accurate way to filter that one particular troll's text in the Homestuck MSPA?
21:36:34 <GreaseMonkey> if you know the story... i'm talking about the one which has 8s all through her text and stuff
21:41:08 <Phantom_Hoover> It can be harder to work out exactly which tab-completion is first with last-spoke, but you tend to get the one you want.
21:42:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Last-spoke is generally going to be what you want, and it will usually have *unsurprising* behavior.
21:43:08 <pikhq> Whereas alphabetical sorting is often *very* surprising.
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21:55:08 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life. <-- I don't get it. Why what?
21:55:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh wait is it "why did the chicken cross the road"...
21:56:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, reason I didn't get it chicken != rooster
21:57:20 <Vorpal> wait, it is in English isn't it?
21:57:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, false friend across languages
21:57:36 <Gregor> Female chickens are hens, male chickens are roosters, both are chickens.
21:57:49 <Gregor> Otherwise we'd have no species name :P
21:58:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, in Swedish kyckling (which sounds pretty close to chicken) means a chicken in the state when it has not yet grown up. When it is small and yellow and fluffy and so on
21:58:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, in Swedish we use the name "höna" (close to "hen") for the species
21:59:05 <Gregor> It's ALMOST as if our languages aren't very closely related.
21:59:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, more like they are but someone used a cross linked cable.
22:00:19 <fizzie> Here in Finland it's "kana" for the species in general or the female animals (so chicken/hen), and "kukko" for a rooster/cock.
22:00:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, and for young birds?
22:02:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, "tipu", but that could be some non-chick little bird too. (It's also one verb form of "tippua", to drop. Which I guess is a slightly colloquial variant of "pudota", also to drop.)
22:03:15 <fizzie> Cf. pääsiäistipu, http://www.nutriciababy.fi/puuhanurkka/fi_FI/paasiainen/_files/78306002090656095/default/tipu.jpg
22:03:16 <Deewiant> It's also a somewhat dated word for "chick" as in "girl".
22:03:40 <fizzie> That too, though I don't think I've ever called a person that.
22:04:10 <Deewiant> Yes, it's quite dated. I don't think I've ever even heard it said. :-P
22:04:34 <fizzie> Maybe in some olden-times Finnish movie.
22:05:02 <fizzie> Incidentally, is the easter chick thing an international thing? Mostly I hear about the rabbit everywhere.
22:05:47 <Vorpal> uh can't say I recall any easter chick
22:05:55 <fizzie> I guess the bunny just gets better press.
22:06:04 <fizzie> Page 1 of about 126,000 results (0.07 seconds).
22:06:05 <Vorpal> it does make more sense than bunny when you think about it though
22:06:15 <Deewiant> I don't hear much about easter chicks here in Finland either. :-P
22:06:19 <Gregor> Usually when I think of easter chicks, I think of godawfully bad pseudomarshmallows.
22:06:26 <fizzie> Over two million results for the bunny.
22:06:42 <Vorpal> it is an easter rabbit in Sweden
22:06:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, we used to have those in 'rairuoho'.
22:07:17 <fizzie> We have the egg-rabbit too, but the chick is also easter-related.
22:07:40 <Vorpal> wait, rabbit might be wrong word
22:07:44 * Vorpal blames google translate
22:08:08 <Gregor> Rabbit is the right word in every context except this :P
22:08:08 <Vorpal> hare vs. kanin in Swedish. I'm not sure what hare translates to
22:08:31 <Gregor> Wait, you have an Easter HARE?
22:08:48 <Gregor> We have an Easter "bunny" (which is a six-year-old's word for "rabbit")
22:08:50 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryegrass doesn't list our "traditional Easter decoration" use at all. :/
22:08:52 <Vorpal> ah yes the word is hare in english too
22:09:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes we have an Easter hare. Could beat your bunny to pulp I bet ;)
22:09:29 <Vorpal> (wait, that sounded so awfully wrong)
22:09:34 <fizzie> Ours is a bunny ("pääsiäispupu") too.
22:10:15 <zzo38> How many games are played with a scoring side and a non-scoring side (or more than one of one or of both)?
22:10:26 <Vorpal> also compare pronouncing påskhare and påskkanin. The latter just becomes silly. You need to make a pause in the middle kind of thing
22:10:43 <oerjan> påskeharen in norwegian too. although i had the impression it's really an american import...
22:10:52 <Gregor> zzo38: Nearly every game in the family of badminton, volleyball, tennis, or other "net" games are played like that.
22:10:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes I think it is
22:12:07 <fizzie> Fikipedia says in Switzerland they have an easter-egg-cuckoo, and in some parts of Germany a goose, a stork or a fox.
22:12:17 <Vorpal> we had witches at Easter traditionally
22:12:50 <fizzie> (Had the Finnish bunny article open.)
22:13:21 * Gregor once-again trolls the channel with http://codu.org/wiki/N-in-a-row%20game
22:13:22 <oerjan> Gregor: um i thought both sides could score in most of those games :/
22:13:37 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, but in any given volley there's a scoring side and a non-scoring side.
22:14:06 <zzo38> Do any cards games do?
22:15:00 <fizzie> In any card game where players take turns you could consider each turn having one scoring and the rest non-scoring sides.
22:15:25 -!- Hilbert_ has joined.
22:15:48 <oerjan> arisen from the grave!
22:16:24 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it can, but is there more explicit cases where you do that in many turns? (And anyways even in card game where players take turns, it is not necessary only the player taking turns who is scoring)
22:16:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, make f into whether or not the Bifro-equivalent Brainfuck program halts.
22:16:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Har-durp-har.
22:17:25 -!- Hilbert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:17:26 -!- Hilbert_ has changed nick to Hilbert.
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22:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously the best possible function is monotonically decreasing.
22:19:01 <fizzie> I can't recall examples offhand, but there's such a huge variety of board games, I'm sure some of them have scoring mechanisms like that.
22:19:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what if you can't decide if it halts or not?
22:19:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it could mean waiting forever, no?
22:19:32 <zzo38> I know of one card game where only one side is scoring side for a long time before you switch.
22:19:52 <fizzie> Dominion's (a card game) single-player turns can sometimes take a while (they have three phases), but perhaps not quite "a long time".
22:20:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like a bad point
22:20:11 <zzo38> fizzie: Not what I meant.
22:20:19 <zzo38> But good point, though.
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22:21:08 <Ilari> According to recent report (less than 48 hours old), APINIC has 44 509 184 addresses in its pool... About 11M addresses to go until it should allocate :-)
22:22:11 <fizzie> And in Arkham Horror either all players go insane or win the game, so there's not exactly a scoring side (or a particular winner) at all.
22:22:16 <pikhq> Ilari: Which we can expect to be how long?
22:25:36 <fizzie> Incidentally, I recently played one game which needed one person to handle "running" the game, and that was done so that each person took a turn being that one, and before starting his/her turn selected one of the other players; at the end of his/her turn (when it came time for the scoring for that round) he/she got the same amount of points as the player he/she selected got.
22:25:42 <Sgeo__> Also, how did I sleep from 7AM to 5PM
22:26:35 <oerjan> Sgeo__: a mere 10 hours!
22:27:16 <oerjan> darn reddit is not loading again
22:27:19 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:27:24 -!- Sgeo__ has changed nick to Sgeo.
22:29:00 -!- azaq231 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:29:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, so why have you got such interest in IPv4 exhaustion?
22:29:58 <oerjan> it's because ipv4 killed his parents
22:30:27 <zzo38> In the card game Armchair Cricket, the scoring side remains scoring side until they either declare or lose ten wickets, whichever comes first. The other side cannot score even when it is their turn to play a card. There are different variants as to what happens when the deck is exhausted.
22:33:58 <Ilari> For APNIC, at the same time, APNIC had 4463681625587712 IPv6 /64s in its pool...
22:35:28 <Ilari> Just generic "pass the popcorn". :-)
22:35:40 <Ilari> (not that I actually eat popcorn...) :-)
22:36:48 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert).
22:36:51 -!- azaq231 has joined.
22:37:46 <Vorpal> <Ilari> According to recent report (less than 48 hours old), APINIC has 44 509 184 addresses in its pool... About 11M addresses to go until it should allocate :-) <-- what is the current estimate on date for ipv4 running out?
22:38:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:41:43 -!- elliott has joined.
22:45:20 <zzo38> Can you tell me whether I wrote the exception similar to font exception correctly?
22:50:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, completely coincidentally, but since it involves your country... we'll be visiting Stockholm next Saturday.
22:50:12 -!- Hilbert has joined.
22:50:37 <elliott> fizzie: AVOID VORPAL AT ALL COSTS
22:50:45 <elliott> Hilbert: got a hotel room free?
22:51:12 <fizzie> (I'm assuming you want to be keeping track as to what sort of riffraff enters/exits your country.)
22:51:42 <elliott> 12:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> A phantom ho!
22:51:44 <fizzie> elliott: I wouldn't recognize a Vorpal if one bit me, anyway.
22:51:58 <elliott> fizzie: They're really stupid and hate TNT.
22:52:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, easy to recognise fizzies from what I heard though.
22:52:59 <fizzie> Yeah, I've heard all kinds of rumours too.
22:53:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, not that I'm anywhere near Stockholm though
22:54:24 <fizzie> I think our plan involved a visit at det där kungliga slottet of yours; having no royalty or royalty-related stuff of our own, us Finns have to "appropriate" from neighbours.
22:54:48 <elliott> 12:54:10 <nooga> i've just encountered zombie spawner
22:54:52 <elliott> nooga: destroy it if you wish, loot the chest
22:55:09 <oerjan> sure, reddit, try to appease me by changing to a funnier heavy load picture
22:55:27 <elliott> 13:29:22 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life.
22:56:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, what was the old on and what is the new one?
22:56:15 <oerjan> Vorpal: reddit isn't loading. but the "sorry we're under heavy load" picture just changed to a new one.
22:56:45 <oerjan> made by newly reddit famous Sure_Ill_Draw_That, apparently
22:57:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, it loads for me
22:57:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, so I can't check
22:58:15 <elliott> i conclude that sure_ill_draw_that has a crushing fetish
22:58:23 <Sgeo> elliott, how do you prevent the mouse from leaving the MC window?
22:58:31 <oerjan> elliott: he's done it before?
22:58:35 <elliott> Sgeo: um it does that automatically
22:58:44 <Sgeo> elliott, not for me
22:58:51 <elliott> Sgeo: then you fail. try linux
22:59:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, did you just place a sign?
22:59:19 <Sgeo> Could it have something to do with the old version?
22:59:31 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I don't have a legal copy yet, so no, I'm not online
22:59:44 <Vorpal> what has legal copy to do with signs?
22:59:53 <Vorpal> what you mentioned to me happens sometimes when I just placed a sign, a click in the window solves it.
22:59:53 <Sgeo> Thought you were asking if some sign you saw on your server was mine
23:00:32 <elliott> psht like Sgeo will get into our server :D
23:00:37 <elliott> it is now closed to everyone who isn't a finn
23:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, are you still on it?
23:00:58 <Sgeo> What, do you think I'm going to bomb everything?
23:01:05 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, just no extra people can come on
23:01:21 <fizzie> Opening/closing the inventory helps in mouse-capturing for me sometimes when it loses it.
23:01:53 <Sgeo> Also, when I last saved, I had no coal, and ran out of fuel for my emergency lighting furnace
23:01:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: the old picture was the reddit alien carrying a stone block by the pyramids
23:02:06 <Sgeo> And I heard footsteps that weren
23:02:37 <elliott> Sgeo: furnaces don't light
23:02:44 <elliott> not enough to stop monsters i don't think
23:03:02 <Sgeo> Wait, so my idea for ecological housing is unsound?
23:03:37 <fizzie> Logs set on fire burn indefinitely if surrounded by the proper sort of blocks.
23:03:54 <fizzie> That gives a reasonable amount of light, I think.
23:04:07 <elliott> "Furnaces are very useful for providing light if you have wood but no coal to make torches with."
23:04:22 <Sgeo> proper sort of blocks?
23:05:02 <fizzie> Active furnace seems to emit one level less light than a torch.
23:05:41 <Sgeo> My cursor is not staying in the window at all
23:05:51 <fizzie> Sgeo: Surround a log by (say) cobblestone, set it on fire; a permanent fireplace out of renewable materials.
23:06:07 <Sgeo> fizzie, awesome
23:06:20 <Sgeo> Wait, where do you get the fire from?
23:06:45 <fizzie> Uh, well, flint and steel usually. But you only need that one.
23:06:50 <elliott> (Note: Lava is not renewable.)
23:07:04 <fizzie> You can go and put the lava back, though.
23:07:13 <fizzie> But the bucket needs iron.
23:07:23 <cheater99> http://www.exploringbinary.com/php-hangs-on-numeric-value-2-2250738585072011e-308/
23:07:32 <cheater99> and better yet.. after you read the whole thing, read comment 5.
23:08:01 <fizzie> Possibly you could just build your place around a natural lava lake/fall you don't touch.
23:08:03 <Sgeo> Well, a cost to the environment of 3 iron ore that ends up giving so much back....
23:08:26 <Sgeo> Gives cobblestone, and fire, and
23:08:39 <Sgeo> fizzie, I did not even think of that
23:09:42 <elliott> Or you could just nuke everything.
23:13:41 <oerjan> elliott: mc has nukes? :D
23:13:49 <elliott> oerjan: TNT is close enough
23:13:52 <elliott> oerjan: you can even fire it
23:14:20 <elliott> oerjan: you should start playing! then you'll do absolutely _nothing_ else in a day
23:15:19 <Sgeo> MC needs spaceships
23:15:26 <oerjan> i doubt my hands will cooperate with that for very long
23:15:31 <Sgeo> I know there's a mod
23:15:36 <Sgeo> I''d like something better than a mod
23:17:10 <Sgeo> Not crappily done like in MoveCraft, and native to MC
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23:19:08 <elliott> Sgeo: How's MoveCraft crappy, and how does nativeness matter
23:23:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, MoveCraft sucks because it can't move the ROU efficiently!
23:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also because it empties chests when you use it and it can't even move a TNT cannon without being weird.
23:26:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, how am I meant to man the HHI war machine *now*?
23:26:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As a faithful HHI employee ... I am sort of relieved that you failed.
23:27:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Blown up everything?
23:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what things do you have that I would have blown up?
23:29:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I LIKE TO LIVE IN A WORLD WITHOUT TOO MUCH CARNAGE
23:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> So what's this about PHP having its own analogue to the Top Secret SMP Bug?
23:29:35 -!- cheater99 has joined.
23:29:42 <elliott> A PREFER A MODERATE AMOUNT OF CARNAGE AT MOST
23:30:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what about no carnage?
23:30:18 <Sgeo> Top Secret SMP Bug?
23:30:37 <Sgeo> CARNAGE FOR THE CARNAGE GOD
23:30:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's Top Secret because of the carnage that would ensue if it was made publi.
23:30:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good idea against PHP
23:31:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but only in small amounts?
23:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, it's possible to crash *any* SMP server if you can see the sky in it.
23:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://cs-people.bu.edu/stevec/cs101/01summer/forms_calc.html
23:31:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, don't reveal too much
23:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to see if I can crash this but I don't have the evil.
23:32:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "have the evil", does that mean "I don't know how" or "I'm not evil enough"?
23:33:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'm assuming that that bug will be fixed soonn?
23:33:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you mean it doesn't crash or that it does?
23:33:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, lolwat?
23:33:45 <elliott> Vorpal: re don't reveal too much: fizzie has explained it all in channel before
23:33:52 <elliott> Sgeo: There is no way we are telling Notch.
23:34:00 <elliott> Sgeo: One, it is useful when used maturely on our server.
23:34:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anyway it supposedly only crashes on 32-bit machines
23:34:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Two, Notch is impossibly bad at coding.
23:34:26 <elliott> It's incredibly unlikely he wouldn't do something very stupid when fixing a bug that basically undermines the entire server architecture.
23:34:49 <elliott> If someone else figures it out we'll tell Notch all we know but before then it's probably a very bad idea.
23:34:51 <Phantom_Hoover> There is an appeal in making it public and watching the world burn, but we could be completely screwed by Notch afterwards.
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23:37:11 <fizzie> I think I've seen comments that suggest it might get accidentally fixed at some point anyway.
23:37:45 <fizzie> (In his stale TODO list or somewhere.)
23:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> In revenge for wrecking our teleporter, I suggest we murder him.
23:38:20 <fizzie> There's quite many entried that say "before beta" that are completely not done on that list. :p
23:40:01 <elliott> We could just write a teleportamating plugin.
23:40:06 <elliott> It'd be less laggy too. :p
23:40:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.toodledo.com/views/public.php?id=td4b49fbf9c05a0
23:40:55 <fizzie> We do have a server-side teleporter already, if someone'd just motivate ineiros to write down the allowed destinations.
23:41:44 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Click on those funny icons that give you more detailed descriptions.
23:42:03 <fizzie> The intuitive page-with-red-block ones.
23:42:32 <elliott> fizzie: I mean an arbitrary-coord teleporter.
23:42:41 <elliott> fizzie: Also it's not writing, you actually have to go there and say /addkit or something.
23:43:26 <fizzie> elliott: I think you can just edit the flat text file too.
23:43:42 <fizzie> Though the command way is I guess the official way.
23:44:08 <cheater99> elliott: has that sshc guy said anything since?
23:44:10 <fizzie> Hard to guesstimate Y values and orientation and so on.
23:44:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> We could just write a teleportamating plugin. <-- likely a heck of a lot more reliable too!
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23:44:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't see why.
23:44:57 <elliott> It doesn't _have_ to send all the chunks in-between down.
23:44:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Also it's not writing, you actually have to go there and say /addkit or something. <-- no, it is editing a file
23:45:00 <elliott> Nether travel doesn't for instance.
23:45:03 <elliott> When you return from Nether.
23:45:10 <elliott> It just generates the one chunk and gives it to you, locally.
23:45:12 <Vorpal> at least that is what I did for my local test server
23:45:22 <elliott> So all it has to do is x=foo; y=foo; if (!chunkexists()) genchunk(); sendchunk();
23:45:36 <Phantom_Hoover> So the bug comes from the fact that it's trying to squeeze all of the intermediate chunks down your connection?
23:46:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or for having to process them that rapidly even
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23:46:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I really should try it with some *really* huge coördinates at some point.
23:46:44 <elliott> Mrf, how can I show the dynamically linked libraries on OS X...
23:47:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Aww, I thought you meant on the server.
23:48:35 <Sgeo> Here's a difference between Minecraft and Active Worlds: People built stuff in AW's heyday, almost 10 years ago or more. Almost all of it still stands, to that day. The stuff you build in Minecraft... won't.
23:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, given that we found Cthulhu at a distance which was practically *reachable*.
23:49:11 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes
23:49:22 <elliott> Sgeo: Guess what, AW's servers will go down one day too.
23:49:24 <Sgeo> Who's going to keep running private servers 10 years from now?
23:49:35 <elliott> Sgeo: And I bet there were quite a few data losses in the early days of AW.
23:49:56 <elliott> I wonder if I can make shutup somehow convey the messages more annoyingly.
23:51:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Cthulhu?
23:52:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, from the Lovecraft mythos
23:52:49 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I know that
23:53:02 <Sgeo> They said they found Cthulhu in MC? I guess that's related to the bug?
23:55:30 <Sgeo> <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, given that we found Cthulhu at a distance which was practically *reachable*.
23:55:55 <Vorpal> oh you meant the mention
23:56:00 <Vorpal> yeah Phantom_Hoover said it
23:56:11 <oerjan> cthulhu is everywhere you want to see
23:56:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, depends on terrain
23:57:14 <Vorpal> elliott, build system of something? of what?
23:57:27 <elliott> Vorpal: from the mlton binary build
23:58:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway it was more than 100 km. Both in distance and in manhattan distance
23:58:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm basing this on time to (4000,4000) anyway.
23:59:21 <elliott> that can be a patch in a minute
23:59:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess if you just run. Sure. But you end up going around mountains and so on
23:59:44 <Vorpal> and that is if you aren't out searching at the time