00:04:45 -!- Behold has joined.
00:07:52 <elliott> cheater99: make the fans quieter :(
00:07:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:17:03 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iatv18rAK-k
00:19:14 <j-invariant> fill your house with water so that you don't have to worry about firwes?
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00:27:03 <elliott> j-invariant: just worry about drowning
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00:35:29 <j-invariant> is it possible to download minecraft worlds that people have made?
00:36:05 <elliott> people occasionally put them up
00:54:26 <Sgeo> Margarie may have won the war, but she hasn't won the battle
00:55:22 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVyDDXWRs7k
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01:02:15 <elliott> cheater00: lolno, why would i be, yes os x, why?
01:02:20 <cheater00> elliott: i know there's a fix for ubuntu :D
01:02:42 <elliott> cheater00: i think it's not a thing that needs fixing, i think it's just that this thing is optimised for silence when you do nothing and then raging fans when you do
01:02:45 <elliott> because of insufficient cooling otherwise
01:02:57 <cheater00> our society supports anything that's expendable
01:02:57 <elliott> because real mac users don't play minecraft
01:03:13 <cheater00> there's a crazy raging fans fix for ubuntu
01:03:25 <cheater00> also what helps is one of those stands
01:03:31 <cheater00> just put something under it so that it has air under it
01:03:42 <cheater00> you know, macbook air.. works better with air amirite?
01:04:27 <elliott> just louder than i'd like :>
01:04:38 <elliott> cheater00: actually i position one leg to cover the vent.
01:04:44 <cheater00> i have a core duo laptop which is supersilent (since i put in a new hdd)
01:04:53 <elliott> the toshiba was nice and silent.
01:04:56 <cheater00> and i have a core 2 duo pc next to it which is inaudible
01:05:02 <elliott> i have a feeling they used smaller fans in this to save space.
01:05:11 <cheater00> this one's some sort of crappy old advent thing that my stupid drughead flatmate left behind
01:05:18 <cheater00> i took it because he thought it was broken
01:05:28 <cheater00> he left it because he thought it was broken, and i took it.
01:05:47 <cheater00> it was broken in that there was a virus that would reboot your pc after 5 minutes.
01:06:07 <cheater00> i'm surprised they even fit any fans into the thing
01:07:19 <elliott> i'm gonna build that super-powerful silent pc sometime. sometime. :p
01:07:36 <elliott> cheater00: ah, you misunderstand how perfectionist I am
01:07:47 <elliott> cheater00: I have spent many, many hours reading random, beyond-obscure topics on silentpcreview
01:07:50 <elliott> worried about LCD whine even
01:07:50 <cheater00> you misunderstand how perfectionist *i* am
01:07:55 <elliott> cheater00: let's put it this way
01:08:14 <elliott> cheater00: if it doesn't have an expensive AMD CPU (AMDs are of course ridiculously hot), and a good graphics card, it's imperfect, BUT ALSO if it has a _single_ fan it's imperfect
01:08:21 <elliott> it must be completely solid state apart from the bulk storage drive
01:08:28 <elliott> which will be in a quietening enclosure.
01:08:39 <elliott> cheater00: don't wish to support intel's business practices any more.
01:08:46 <elliott> AMDs are hot and not as fancy, but *shrug*
01:08:56 <elliott> cheater00: higher than an intel :)
01:09:21 <cheater00> i just put my hand on the heatsink of this pc..
01:09:40 <cheater00> it's like, "this tea is getting cold" warm
01:10:15 <elliott> cheater00: you realise that even silentpcreview's work pc in the anechoic chamber used when monitoring the dBA levels of equipment and shit ...
01:10:18 <cheater00> the loudest thing in this pc is inarguably the power supply..
01:10:20 <elliott> one single, 140mm case fan.
01:10:29 <elliott> i consider even _that_ unacceptable.
01:10:34 <elliott> cheater00: oh yeah, i really want a solid-state PSU too
01:10:42 <elliott> I don't know of a 400W solid state one
01:10:48 <cheater00> do you know what microphonics are?
01:11:03 <elliott> cheater00: is the psu fanless?
01:11:16 <elliott> cheater00: i have been unable to find a fanless psu of that wattag
01:11:20 <elliott> cheater00: do you have a case fan?
01:12:35 <cheater00> and further revisions make it even quieter
01:12:40 <cheater00> but this switching noise that it has..
01:12:51 <elliott> cheater00: ah, so one of the ooold ones
01:13:09 <elliott> the site linked in that 2003 review is squatted
01:13:20 <elliott> cheater00: btw i was considering a copper heatpipe + big radiator solution
01:13:25 <elliott> cheater00: what cpu/gpu do you have?
01:13:34 <elliott> cheater00: ah. our second links differ.
01:13:39 <elliott> this is why lmgtfy is bad ;)
01:13:41 <cheater00> and the fastest geforce i could get at the time
01:13:54 <elliott> so no fans at all, right? just checking :D
01:14:18 <cheater00> there's a fan between the cpu and graphic card heatsinks
01:14:43 <elliott> cheater00: i would buy a zalman totally-no-noise but they're not sold any more
01:14:49 <elliott> variable: silent pc nerdery
01:14:52 <cheater00> it actually does not have enough mechanical impedance to transfer any sound
01:15:01 <elliott> cheater00: everything that moves sounds.
01:15:08 <elliott> things that move are the enemy.
01:15:18 <cheater00> you're talking to someone who knows a lot about acoustic engineering
01:15:31 <elliott> cheater00: what if i want to use my computer in a vacuum, asshole
01:16:03 <elliott> what if i live in an anechoic chamber
01:16:11 <cheater00> first of all, the electrolyte in capacitors would be instantly sucked out through the ventilation perforation
01:16:40 <cheater00> second of all, the heatsinks would not be able to give away the heat because they're not touching any matter
01:16:52 <elliott> what if i live in an anechoic chamber
01:17:16 <cheater00> well, if you're a bat that's fine because bats hear supersonics
01:17:50 <cheater00> and fans by the fact of their design drop in acoustic coupling performance as frequency goes up
01:18:16 <cheater00> if you stick your ear next to the fan at a very specific angle
01:18:22 <cheater00> and that has to be measured with a laser
01:18:54 <cheater00> then i can hear a barely audible rumble of say maybe 5 hz
01:19:09 <cheater00> if you did that you couldn't hear anything, because your hearing ain't good nuff
01:19:50 <cheater00> i bet with a slightly bigger heatsink it could be possible to run this pc fanless
01:19:59 <cheater00> it's the graphic card that does all the heat, not the cpu
01:20:04 <elliott> cheater00: the problem is that without the airflow everything breaks down :(
01:20:09 <cheater00> if the newest graphic cards are better with that it's nice
01:20:20 <elliott> cheater00: graphics cards are getting hotter
01:21:17 <elliott> cheater00: anyway it's more psychological, i could _feeeel_ that fan moving
01:21:20 <cheater00> i need to connect a keyboard to that pc.
01:21:21 <elliott> cheater00: have you looked into heatpipe solutions
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01:22:24 <elliott> cheater00: i was considering passive watercooling but realised that pumps make noise
01:22:54 <cheater00> it's the hottest running graphics card ever
01:23:07 <cheater00> and i put the slowest ever fan possible on it
01:23:33 <cheater00> then you could get something that can be run fanless
01:23:44 <cheater00> and then put a convection stack on your cpu
01:24:03 <cheater00> it's actually very simple, you just take a drain pipe
01:24:13 <elliott> cheater00: i'm probably going for a scythe of similar size to http://www.crazypc.com/images/coolers/cpu/prolimatech/megahfull.jpg
01:24:26 <elliott> i may want to have this pc horizontal
01:24:31 <elliott> i don't trust things like that to hang :D
01:24:51 <cheater00> but the fan works properly only when the fins are vertical
01:25:00 <cheater00> which means the whole pc has to be
01:25:20 <elliott> that's not actually a scythe
01:25:21 <cheater00> i did everything with thermalright
01:25:30 <elliott> i have this internal thermalright => shit mapping
01:25:33 <elliott> maybe it's thermaltake i'm thinking of
01:25:50 <elliott> what's wrong with scythe, i like scythe
01:25:56 <cheater00> you use thermalright if you want things to be right
01:26:04 <cheater00> well, i did everything with thermalright and it worked well
01:26:12 <cheater00> i don't have this experience with scythe coolers
01:26:20 <cheater00> i have a scythe hdd enclosure which is the best ever
01:26:32 <cheater00> but i know nothing of their coolers
01:26:34 <elliott> cheater00: http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu/053/scnj3000-detail.html
01:26:44 <elliott> cheater00: they're mostly of the gigantic fucking heatpipes variety :D
01:27:02 <cheater00> except thermalright also does something very useful
01:27:20 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cMC-m0sjsM
01:27:26 <cheater00> which help a lot with cpus even thought you'd think they wouldn't
01:27:29 <elliott> http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=33&lng=en <-- the most fans i will allow in my pc is one (1) of these
01:27:32 <cheater00> but every cpu gets equally hot on both sides
01:27:34 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to MinecraftVideoBo.
01:27:38 <cheater00> so the underside catches a lot of warmth
01:28:11 <cheater00> noctua have just come up with a new one
01:28:29 <elliott> that's the biggest one on their products page
01:28:37 <elliott> erm isn't the 140mm one quite old
01:28:48 <cheater00> yeah but it didn't exist back before time
01:29:00 <elliott> i don't trust myself to apply thermal paste, will be fun
01:29:06 <cheater00> also now they do this jaded fin thing
01:29:16 <elliott> "oh i just sorta... put an icing of it on"
01:29:19 <cheater00> there's a special procedure you do with thermal paste
01:29:21 <elliott> "the cooler is kinda wedged in the goop"
01:29:27 <elliott> yeah you make a pea ball and crush it w/ the heatsink
01:29:45 <elliott> that's what spcr tells me :>
01:29:46 <cheater00> not one person i've spoken to actually knows their shit on how to do that
01:30:04 <elliott> right, i trust you, mr. other random person on the internet
01:30:11 <elliott> more than the original, mr. three random people on the internet
01:30:50 <cheater00> yeah well buy a weak graphics card and you can have it without
01:31:02 <elliott> cheater00: heatpipes bitch
01:31:10 <elliott> cheater00: how much RAM DO YOU HAVE EH
01:31:18 <oklopol> i'd like to insert MY heatpipe in a bitch
01:31:21 <elliott> cheater00: hahahahahahahahahaha
01:31:30 <cheater00> that's because i still run 32 bit windoze sometimes
01:31:42 <elliott> 32 bit windoze boots with >4 gig anyway doesn't it
01:32:00 <cheater00> well back then that was what i was using most of the time
01:32:23 <elliott> cheater00: its funny because im getting 12 to 16 gigs because i love excess
01:32:39 <elliott> cheater00: the part list i got for bsmnt had 12 gigs, so really i just need to top him in _some_ way
01:32:45 <elliott> maybe "not sounding like a jet"
01:33:24 <elliott> he said he wanted a new computer, i produced a list of parts out of my ass^W^Wnewegg
01:33:27 <cheater00> i see it, i still don't know what it is
01:33:29 <elliott> surprisingly they worked first time
01:33:33 <cheater00> did you tell him to dd if=/dev/urandom ?
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01:33:44 <elliott> i think he still uses that box
01:33:53 <Sgeo> What's a Sgeo?
01:34:07 <elliott> i kinda set myself up for a fal lthough he has an intel ssd, i7 cpu, 12 gigs of ram...
01:34:09 <elliott> i can beat him on gfx card
01:34:12 <elliott> he has some shitty passive thing
01:34:49 <elliott> it's not my fault they're thin, fuck off
01:35:15 <cheater00> <elliott> NOooOOOOooooooooooooooooooo11!!!!
01:35:38 <cheater00> there's some sikrit tipz to having a quiet pc
01:36:03 <cheater00> the most sikrit tip is to not have a psu in your case
01:36:12 <elliott> cheater00: FUNNY i'ma violate that tip
01:36:18 <elliott> things i hate that aren't sound: WIRES
01:36:49 <cheater00> won't have such a silent pc then huh
01:37:27 <elliott> cheater00: or i could just put it in the case and
01:37:30 <elliott> cheater00: here's the clever bit
01:37:35 <elliott> cheater00: you know what i would do?
01:37:41 <elliott> cheater00: i would cut off the back of my case
01:37:51 <elliott> am i genius? i am genius? yes, i am genius
01:38:00 <elliott> cheater00: buy me some heatpipes
01:38:12 <Sgeo> ya no has to be my favorite phrase in Spanish
01:38:19 <Sgeo> Even though I forgot what it means
01:38:59 <cheater00> elliott: really, you don't want the psu in your computer.
01:39:08 <elliott> cheater00: but it'll stare at me
01:39:17 <Sgeo> The most silent computers are ones that don't work!
01:39:20 <elliott> cheater00: did i mention i want an ips monitor
01:39:23 <Sgeo> Oh, cheater00 means outside the case I assume
01:39:45 <cheater00> it's nice matted extruded aluminium
01:40:24 <cheater00> oh is that this lcd overdrive stuff?
01:40:44 <cheater00> i think those overdrive ones are loud but not sure
01:41:05 <cheater00> elliott: research backplane coolers k
01:41:34 <cheater00> yeah there's this thing that makes lcds behave like they have faster times..
01:41:47 <elliott> cheater00: IPS is what the graphics"pros" use
01:41:53 <elliott> TN (normal LCDs) have uneven colour distribution
01:41:59 <elliott> colour at left corner is different to middle
01:42:05 <cheater00> which you can't use for computer games
01:42:14 <cheater00> they're superthick too aren't they?
01:42:22 <elliott> cheater00: 10 to 14 ms response; also, most actual LCDs have similar ACTUAL response rates
01:42:27 <elliott> the "cheating" is ubiquitous
01:42:45 <elliott> cheater00: btw all iMacs and Apple Displays have been IPS for like two years now
01:42:54 <cheater00> you know, cooler is just one mistake away from cooker
01:42:56 <elliott> admittedly nobody has yet to play a game on one :D
01:43:02 <elliott> cheater00: yeah they're pretty thick, but...
01:43:12 <elliott> cheater00: also since TN displays are cheaper, they tend to have other shit too
01:43:18 <elliott> stupid rounded edges hiding pixels
01:43:28 <cheater00> http://www.scan.co.uk/products/thermalright-ifx-10-backplate-motherboard-backside-extra-cpu-cooler-%28775-am2-939%29
01:43:41 <cheater00> Sgeo: funnily enough that's the name of a song i like a lot
01:44:40 <elliott> dude... who looks at non-newegg sites when deciding on components
01:45:28 <elliott> irrelevant, buying is irrelevant
01:45:32 <elliott> you look at newegg when looking
01:46:13 <cheater00> well you seem to have some income now
01:48:16 <Sgeo> If elliott has more income than me, I
01:48:20 <Sgeo> I'll be jealous
01:49:02 <elliott> i make 1k/day but my dad takes it all away to spend on HATRED
01:49:15 <elliott> keys are literally right next to each other
01:50:01 <Sgeo> lliterally literally
01:50:19 <cheater00> elliott: if you work contracts you could easily be doing 1k per day.
01:50:29 <Sgeo> When will we have figuratively literally literally?
01:50:31 <cheater00> you'd probably have to move to london or reading.
01:50:38 <Sgeo> And have to say literally literally literally?
01:51:00 * Sgeo overdoses on literally
01:51:00 <elliott> there is an essentially fifteen-year-old part of my brain that sees the word work, contracts, and move to london, and immediately ignores you for the next ten minutes
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01:52:08 <Sgeo> Google wants to replace copumpkins with gopumpkins
01:53:05 <cheater00> there's also the fifteen year old part of your brain that sees the word "able to buy new toys" and "able to afford lawyers that tell people i don't like to fuck off"
01:53:30 <cheater00> yes, word. i bet the chinese have single-words for each of those
01:53:51 <elliott> cheater00: also, i can tell people to fuck off without lawyers
01:54:25 <elliott> my email has spam filters!
01:55:49 <Sgeo> Why do I feel a sudden need to bounce off walls?
01:56:00 <Sgeo> Just earlier, I couldn't keep my eyes open?
01:56:02 <elliott> cheater00: i'm not really into the habit of getting court orders, are you?
01:56:21 <cheater00> i thought you had some sort of bs going on earlier though?
01:57:22 <cheater00> i thought you said you had to live in some sort of boarding school of sort
01:57:31 <cheater00> that you didn't want to go to at all but school made you go to
01:58:19 <elliott> Sgeo is totally crazy, it's plausible
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02:04:22 <cheater00> elliott_: i want to see that convection based cpu cooler :D
02:04:32 <cheater00> it would have to be at least 3 meters high :D
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02:13:23 <oklopol> i don't get your excavation site, you are just blowing stuff up down there at random :D
02:13:37 <oklopol> you could just do tnt columns
02:14:03 <Sgeo> RANDOM FOR THE RANDOM GOD
02:14:21 <oklopol> or preferably, just do row by row, but i guess that's boring
02:18:11 <oklopol> what's it called if you're attracted to slime?
02:19:13 <oklopol> japs use a lot of this fake sperm, so what you have is basically people having sex in slime
02:20:40 <oklopol> i tried to ggl but all i get is "pedophiles are slime and should be killed"
02:23:47 <oerjan> the pedophile blob, coming to a cinema near you
02:24:49 <oklopol> not that i even know what people who like sperm are called, although i have a guess
02:27:46 <oklopol> the slime thing? they do, but it's completely different, because you'll usually have a pretty mundane sex scene under all the slim
02:27:54 <oklopol> unlike when there's actual wanking involved
02:28:03 <oklopol> japs do get physical then, ofc, as well, but less
02:28:22 <oklopol> american bukkake is much more formal
02:30:07 <oklopol> and there's less euro and it's less clearly themed, or maybe i just notice differences easier because i'm from here, and therefore understand the european bukkake taste better
02:30:17 <oklopol> i'm not an expert on bukkake really, but i do dabble
02:32:06 <cheater00> i think you've been attacked by the pedophile blob as a child
02:34:08 <oklopol> well, german bukkake is very easy to spot of course
02:40:02 * oerjan suddenly realizes that "bukkake" could mean "stomach cake" in norwegian
02:43:21 <oklopol> buk = stomach? that's weir
02:45:11 <oklopol> would've been better if i'd said dabble in it, didn't realize that works for both
02:47:54 <oerjan> apparently it's more precisely "abdomen"
02:48:12 <oklopol> oh well that's better isn't it
02:49:42 <oklopol> i mean doesn't it make more sense
02:51:23 <oerjan> my confusion is probably due the fact that no:mage can mean _either_ stomach or abdomen
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02:52:02 <oklopol> i don't know what the finnish words mean, i think both means both
02:52:43 <oklopol> we have a word that loosely translates as "stomach bag"
02:53:04 <oklopol> which is used with both words, so maybe that's what you're supposed to call the container
02:53:15 <oklopol> i mean bag is used with both
02:54:24 <oerjan> um, we have "magesekk", which splits similarly and means only stomach
02:55:13 <oklopol> (that's not the finnish word, skki = sack)
02:55:16 <oerjan> you probably borrowed at least the parts of that :D
03:00:24 <oklopol> i just said that because of mage = maha, since english didn't seem to have a friend for it
03:03:56 <oklopol> gre:stoma => gre:stomakhos => lat:stomachus => old french:stomaque, estomac => middle english:stomach
03:05:45 <oerjan> um that does not show a link to "mage"
03:05:47 <oklopol> dunno what i could've found that wouldn't have convinced me tho
03:06:18 <oklopol> ...if a german pronounces it
03:06:50 <oklopol> doesn't show a direct link to mage, no
03:07:03 <oklopol> but those look like friends
03:07:59 <oerjan> oh old english had maga
03:08:28 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maga#Etymology_2
03:09:13 <oklopol> that's slightly closer, maybe
03:10:28 <oerjan> um i wasn't really referring to the english, but to the etymology, which is obviously the same as no:mage
03:10:42 <oerjan> also, stomach is not related
03:11:35 <oklopol> well g ~ h isn't that weird, so maha is then not related to stomach either
03:11:36 <oerjan> it's stoma + chos, the greek is a derivation with a suffix
03:12:13 <oklopol> i read that, but i was already convinced enough not to read the rest
03:12:34 <oerjan> it looks like stoma may be related to no:stemme (voice)
03:12:41 <oklopol> although why does that mean maga couldn't be from that?
03:13:21 <oklopol> why couldn't the etymology be that sto dropped out for some reason :P
03:14:08 <oerjan> oklopol: because the addition of -chos happened _in_ greek, long after the word had been inherited to the other sister language branches
03:14:55 <oklopol> hmm yeah i suppose greek isn't exactly a dead language
03:16:32 <oklopol> still not 100% convinced by that proof, although you are surely right
03:17:09 <oerjan> well indeed it's not entirely impossible, you'd have to be a linguist and look at many languages to see how it was inherited
03:17:41 <oklopol> well it's already clear from the list i gave that sto is not easy to dtop
03:18:03 <oklopol> so why the fuck would a hundred year old language like norwegian suddenly drop it
03:18:27 <oerjan> um it would have be dropped _long_ before that :D
03:19:04 <oklopol> i'm not sure how a sentence like that can have a point
03:19:17 <oerjan> there are cognates of mage in celtic and balto-slavic languages, according to that link
03:19:56 <oklopol> i have work tomorrow, kinda pointless even going because everyone will have left when i'd get there
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04:23:44 <variable> “The problem with Internet quotations is that many are not genuine.” - Abraham Lincoln
04:24:32 <oerjan> "Abraham Lincoln never said that." - Oscar Wilde
04:24:51 <variable> The REAL two hardest problems in CS: Cache Invalidation, Naming Things, and Off by One Errors.
04:25:33 <coppro> when did #esoteric become #uncyclopedia
04:25:55 <pikhq> Presumably variable is writing an Oscar Wilde language.
04:26:15 <oerjan> but was that off by one error caused by a cache invalidation?
04:26:34 <oerjan> coppro: OK THAT'S ALL MY FAULT
04:27:15 <oerjan> i recall i saw a fake lincoln quote being teared to pieces on reddit a few weeks ago (i think)
04:28:15 <oerjan> it was something that it was almost plausible for him to have said, about corporations getting too much power. and it _was_ from the 19th century, but not by him.
04:28:24 * coppro considers writing HowTo:Play Mao
04:29:03 <oerjan> coppro: and then a concise guide to playing mornington crescent, i assume?
04:29:33 <oerjan> I MEAN SINCE THE OFFICIAL RULES ARE SO LARGE
04:30:01 <coppro> the Mao guide would mostly be a guy complaining about how he doesn't get it
04:30:23 <coppro> inspired by a real-life guy who just didn't get it
04:30:37 <oerjan> variable: i _really_ think that quip above would have been better if you had named something in it. then it could have been three-way self-referential.
04:31:08 <coppro> we were happy when he left partway through and we could recover half the deck
04:31:21 <coppro> (we were playing with two decks!)
04:31:59 <oerjan> variable: nihil novi sub soli
04:35:28 <oerjan> another nice self-referential quotation
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06:53:02 <zzo38> Did they complete the next level in my game?
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11:57:52 <Ilari> Ah, nifty... potaroo.net is now connectable for me without hacks...
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13:09:53 * Sgeo hopes he doesn't break anything by installing these things I downloaded I think they're supposed to be installed in order but I don't know what order I didn't download them in order
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13:23:56 * Sgeo goes to play with Virtual PC
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13:55:06 <Sgeo> Fun fact: There are no checks as to what version of Windows 7 is in use.
13:57:38 <Sgeo> ...there is a check
13:57:57 <Sgeo> It checks when you try to use it
13:58:02 <Sgeo> Long after installation
14:02:31 <Sgeo> Dear Microsoft: What made you geniuses think that the best thing to do was put the XP Mode HD on the comp regardless of whether it's an acceptable host?
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14:46:48 * Sgeo tries Parallels
14:46:59 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what the limitation in the trial is
14:47:04 * Sgeo guesses that it's time limited
14:47:14 <Sgeo> I'll flip a nut if it is, but yeah
14:49:17 <Sgeo> It unnerves me when emulation software goes to install in Program Files (x86)
14:56:35 <Sgeo> So, it's no a time-based limtation
14:58:03 <Sgeo> It's a 30-day trial
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15:02:37 <Sgeo> Ok, I like Parallels
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15:33:27 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/sgeo.wav
15:35:14 <Sgeo> How to get Windows 98 to install in Parallels: Tell Parallels that the Guest OS is not Windows 98
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15:38:16 <Sgeo> I'd love Parallels much more if it WORKED
15:38:21 <Sgeo> Bloody piece of shist
15:38:34 <j-invariant> wwhat are you supposed to do while you wait for the sun to come up?
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15:59:09 <Sgeo> One good thing about VirtualBox: It actually works
16:00:22 <j-invariant> I found these virtualizer programs all took too much RAM
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16:48:50 <Sgeo> Maybe VMWare Server was breaking other random shit in the other emulators
16:54:30 <Sgeo> Huh, apparently it was
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16:57:51 <Sgeo> Or maybe it wasn't
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17:01:37 <j-invariant> elliott: what are you supposed to do in your cave while waiting for the sun to come up?
17:01:57 <elliott> j-invariant: try making a house/castle, not a cave; but, basically;
17:02:15 <elliott> j-invariant: mining; building (if you have a lit-and-encased-by-wall build project you can stay),
17:02:33 <elliott> j-invariant: you can even go out with a sword and enough armour
17:03:00 <j-invariant> also.. every time I die I lose all my rare stuff like coal :(
17:03:09 <j-invariant> I tried putting it all in my cave but it disappeard
17:03:34 <elliott> j-invariant: make chests, duh
17:03:56 <elliott> store things in chest, put all your valuable shit in chests before doingsomething dangerous
17:04:04 <j-invariant> iI dono't know if its cheating or not to read the wiki
17:04:30 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Crafting is basically essential.
17:04:41 <elliott> j-invariant: Even the people who play without spoilers get told how to craft certain things by friends
17:05:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:05:15 <elliott> j-invariant: There's really only a small finite number of things you can "spoil", and knowing them is pretty much essential to play the game well, so it's probably not worth worrying about.
17:06:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: now _here's_ a question, what do you do if you spawn in a desert biome
17:06:57 <elliott> j-invariant: biome is a region of area of a certain type
17:07:02 <elliott> j-invariant: there's desert, forest, ...
17:07:39 <elliott> j-invariant: rain forest, swamp, seasonal forest, forest, savanna, woods, taiga, desert, plains, tundra
17:07:44 <elliott> also the Nether but it hardly counts
17:08:00 <elliott> j-invariant: that last but one line is the full list
17:08:04 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, significantly, some biomes have no accessible tree.
17:08:09 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Biomes :P
17:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And since such basic things as mining require wood, you're screwed.
17:08:36 <j-invariant> I dont' like cutting up trees because I worry about them all disappearing
17:09:22 <elliott> j-invariant: um they drop saplings
17:09:28 <elliott> j-invariant: the leaves decay automatically
17:09:31 <elliott> the ones that don't, hit them
17:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Plant the saplings, and a new tree will eventually grow.
17:09:34 <elliott> j-invariant: then pick up the little tree saplings
17:09:40 <j-invariant> I planted sapling but they just stay there
17:09:42 <elliott> plant one in the same place with right click
17:09:49 <elliott> j-invariant: you have to wait for day and stuff
17:09:54 <elliott> just leave them, they'll grow
17:10:02 <elliott> j-invariant: there has to be three free blocks above
17:10:13 <elliott> j-invariant: best idea is to plant one in the same place as the tree you destroyed
17:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> You can make a little indoor arboretum if you are very paranoid.
17:12:12 <elliott> I FOUND THE BEST MOUNTAIN EVER
17:13:06 -!- Behold has joined.
17:13:15 <elliott> Fuck yes. In single player.
17:16:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eA
17:16:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eQ
17:16:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eg
17:16:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: These photos were taken *on top of a tall mountain*.
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17:16:20 <elliott> The arch stops snow falling inside.
17:16:29 <elliott> There are also a lot of trees nearby.
17:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, you clearly haven't seen the glory of Mt. Hoover.
17:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, weirdness: I have been nominated to the RationalWiki Foundation's Board of Trustees.
17:18:30 <elliott> j-invariant: are you gonna come on our server?
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17:22:35 <j-invariant> 1: Post "HALP IVE BEEN MEGA HACKED" to stack overflow 2: Infinite karma problem stackexachange?
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17:25:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh god monster noises on Peaceful
17:27:55 <Sgeo> So far, VMware Workstation is working
17:28:02 <Sgeo> Wish I had more than a trial key though
17:29:03 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Four words: I'm trying and failing
17:32:15 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf.
17:32:17 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523.
17:36:08 <Sgeo> It's a sign that you are reading a webcomic
17:36:42 <Sgeo> You might turn into me!
17:37:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty sure Sgeo doesn't read Achewood, it would be a good way to distance yourself from him.
17:37:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please tell me Dr McNinja isn't something you read.
17:37:30 <elliott> HELPFUL ANTI-SGEO ADVICE DISPENSED DAILY
17:37:46 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I've glanced at it, but haven't gotten into it
17:38:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But Achewood is actually amusing and interesting, see
17:38:09 <elliott> Well, for some definitions
17:38:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I dropped Freefall to avoid Sgeo, and that's as far as I'll go.
17:39:06 * Sgeo assumes you're joking
17:39:29 <Sgeo> You'd seriously stop reading a webcomic just because I read it?
17:40:12 <Sgeo> Ok, that makes more sense
17:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I've decided I'll catch up every few months, since the story moves at a snail's pace.
17:44:19 <Sgeo> xkcd, Freefall, Dilbert [ok, not a webcomic], User Friendly on occasion not that it updates anymore, Order of the Stick, Erfworld, Bonobo Conspiracy, Superosity, 1/0 [dead], Triangle & Robert [dead], Jesus & Mo, atheistcartoons, Subnormality, The Non-Adventures of Wonderella, Basic Instructions, Cyanide & Happiness, SMBC
17:44:27 <Sgeo> Cowbirds in Love
17:50:59 <elliott> Because Sgeo has no taste.
17:51:23 <elliott> 1/0 and T&R are not so much "dead" as completed...
17:51:40 <elliott> Oh fuck fuck fuck you read Subnormality why stop it I <3 subnormality you're not allowed to
17:52:55 <elliott> oh bonobo conspiracy is written by the guy who wrote the "what colour are your bits?" thing... who puts stock in astrology :D
17:53:03 * elliott wonders if that'll make Sgeo vomit and stop reading or something
17:53:49 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm vaguely aware of that already
17:57:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw, oklopol has been mining in the excavation pits :)
18:14:52 <Phantom_Hoover> A large fraction of the MC community hate people who play it on peaceful, apparently.
18:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> There totally needs to be a survival horror version of MC.
18:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> With old mines which are crawling with monsters due to a single, minor breach.
18:20:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That guy using \alpha is iiiiiritating
18:22:51 <elliott> Dear M. Wunsch: I don't care how many hours he works in a day, I care about him acting like an idiot, I care about him being a jerk to people who have worked insane amounts with his stupid, obfuscated code to produce amazing mods, I care about him not testing the product he's _sold_ for even FIVE SECONDS before pushing it — beta is no excuse — and I care about how he does shit like badmouth git with no justification when he is far
18:22:51 <elliott> less of an engineer than anyone who's worked on git.
18:23:36 <elliott> I care that he's selling a game with potential that he's wasting by doing stupid shit and not thinking; he is clearly good enough at coding in theory to be able to do this properly, he just _isn't_. And I care that the raving hordes of fanboys lynch you for even suggesting any of this might be true.
18:24:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [[And here is Notch, who has mastered the art of computer science to express a creative ambition, making a game on his own time and finding success because of it. We should all be “sitting on his cock”…figuratively, of course.]]
18:24:46 <elliott> That... I don't care whether that's figurative or not.
18:25:07 <elliott> "If I were Notch, and I poured all of my creative ambition and energy into this project and was called a “lazy cunt” by some nothing, I would immediately cease working on the project. I would send out an update patch that bombs the game and makes it unplayable. And I would take the money and run. And I would never again bless this planet with my creativity and thoughtfulness."
18:25:14 <elliott> tl;dr not only is my skin so thick as to be non-existent, but I am a gigantic asshole.
18:25:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: M. Wunsch in that post you linked.
18:25:45 <elliott> He longs to sit on Notch's cock ... figuratively, of course.
18:28:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I demand that you let me copy that rant to M. Wunsch to TV Tropes' Just Bugs Me page for MC.
18:28:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sure. But omit the fuck him part.
18:28:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also don't attribute me. :p
18:30:18 <Sgeo> <elliott name="Elliott Hird"/>
18:32:04 <Sgeo> YAY PARALLELS HATES WINDOWS 98
18:36:33 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/JustBugsMe/Minecraft
18:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> [[nothing wrong with rars, but whatever.]] — The author of hMod, when someone asked him for a zipped file.
18:38:30 <Sgeo> http://arc.opera.com/ping.html
18:39:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "can I have a tarball" "ew, pervert"
18:40:31 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, saw that. Bucket?
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18:42:13 <elliott> Sgeo: Buy the damn game and do drudge work on Cube.
18:43:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: All mod developers.
18:43:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That "frown upon" bullshit.
18:43:21 <elliott> And the passive-agressiveish "very grey area legally" from the same sentence.
18:43:37 <elliott> See his ancient blog post.
18:44:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "First of all, most “mods” that add new features to the game are in a very gray area legally, and I frown upon them."
18:44:36 <elliott> tl;dr "These '''mods''' -- I use scare quotes despite the fact that they are, in fact, mods -- are something I COULD, hypothetically, sue all your fucking asses over. Also, I hate you."
18:44:45 <elliott> Okay, so that's actually longer than the non-tl;dr :D
18:44:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't wait until he open-sources the code and good programmers fix it.
18:44:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I, also, cannot wait for infinity.
18:45:05 <elliott> It is something rather difficult to wait for.
18:45:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait what.
18:47:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82789
18:52:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Umm...no. :P
18:52:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The point of that kind of parody is to take reality and twist it, rather than making stuff up.
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18:57:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. I either need to upgrade my VPS or ... my internet connection :P
18:58:02 <elliott> "4:29PM The screens are now an undulating blue cube field. And man -- are they ever undulating."
18:58:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I'm TNTing ineiros and everyone he holds dear.
18:58:14 <elliott> (Not really. Except, yes, really.)
18:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> [[I was skeptical at first, but this is a much better game than Fallout 3. Heaps of crashes and console freeze bugs.]] — Notch on Fallout 3.
18:59:33 <elliott> Fallout 3: better than Fallout 3.
18:59:49 <elliott> [[4:39PM Oh, Zoll's on stage now! He's... holding a remote? Oh, he's sitting on a couch and watching... a video of his mother being pregnant? Oh boy.
18:59:49 <elliott> 4:40PM "My parents were totally stoked when I finally arrived... Grandma said I must have been the most documented kid ever."]] — document of Samsung keynote
19:00:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG. FALLOUT NEW VEGAS WAS DEVELOPED BY OBSIDIAN ENTERTAINMENT
19:01:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Speaking of that, if you haven't seen this you must: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKIkw3LIoQ
19:02:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It gets better.
19:03:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The great thing is, the first time it just looks like your vision is all messed up, and then it KEEPS GOING
19:03:56 <Phantom_Hoover> That has to be the scariest thing in a game, like, ever.
19:04:15 <zzo38> Any complete of my game, yet?
19:04:26 <zzo38> Or any part of it?
19:04:36 <zzo38> Wasn't j-invariant playing this game? Did they get past that level?
19:05:56 <zzo38> I think they are not on this IRC at this time?
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19:06:57 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, the irony of Notch complaining about someone else's buggy game is delightful.
19:07:15 <elliott> http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/06/live-from-samsungs-ces-2011-keynote/?sort=oldest&refresh=0 Oh my god, this is the most amazing thing ever.
19:07:21 <elliott> Or at least second most amazing.
19:08:44 * oerjan now wonders what the first is
19:09:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Chocolate unicorns.
19:10:17 <oerjan> i've been reading reddit too much, i feel like adding bacon to that
19:10:19 <elliott> 5:03PM Demoing the change from ESPN to CNN. This is really cool stuff.
19:10:20 <elliott> 5:04PM Cool in the sense that it's happening on the Galaxy Tab, not cool in the sense that he changed a TV channel.
19:11:43 <Sgeo> If I get sound working in this VM, I'll finally be able to play a kid's game that I haven't played in years1
19:11:59 <elliott> Sgeo: And then, finally, you can become a child once more.
19:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> What the hell *is* this Cloud thing people keep going on about?
19:15:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: probably has something to do with global warming
19:15:19 <oerjan> steam is a greenhouse gas, after all
19:15:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, cloud seeding is one of the proposed methods of geoengineering
19:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it's unclear how one would store data in a cloud.
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19:16:44 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The letter A just exploded from serif to sans-serif. It's hard to explain that any better.]]
19:17:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i read they managed to store data in _bacteria_, so why not
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19:30:52 <oerjan> maybe we should ask some homeopaths, i hear they are experts at storing data in water
19:32:54 <elliott> fizzie: Do you still have that symbolic-mode parsing code? I feel like converting it to Haskell.
19:34:40 <oerjan> there is no such thing as sociopaths. stop believing that nonsense or i will make _sure_ you regret it.
19:35:31 <elliott> oerjan: Now now, be more classy; a decent sociopath would go "I see.", smile genuinely, convince you into going home with him, and disembowel you.
19:35:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. As in o+x,g=wr.
19:35:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Most commonly e.g. "+x" or "a+w".
19:36:02 <elliott> chmod's argument, basically, when not octal.
19:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I CAN'T HERE YOU I AM RAPPING ABOUT SYMBOLIC MODE PARSING CODE IN MY HEAD
19:36:41 <oerjan> elliott: that's a ridiculous suggestion, i don't want to have to clean up that stuff
19:37:10 <elliott> oerjan: Wow. Lazy sociopathy is surprisingly hilarious.
19:37:28 <elliott> "I would kill you for no reason at all, but I'd probably have to hide your body and that sounds like a lot of work."
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19:38:15 <elliott> "5:29PM Zoll remembers going to an amusement park with his dad for the first time. He wishes his dad had taken pictures in 3D, because the pictures they took don't adequately capture the memory. Oh, Zoll."
19:38:25 <elliott> [[5:29PM BK: "Last year we launched the world's first Full HD 3D TV! That's a lot of initials."]]
19:38:53 <oerjan> elliott: while i _hope_ i have a more solid moral than that, that still feels eerily close to how i feel about annoying people sometimes
19:39:05 <elliott> oerjan: i... please don't kill me?
19:39:27 <oerjan> oh you're nowhere near _that_ annoying.
19:40:07 <olsner> elliott: not nearly as bad as it could be though - could be specified as a LED LCD TV, and they could throw in SCART and HDMI and VGA and DVI as well...
19:40:24 <elliott> [[5:35PM BK just gave Katzenerg a pair of prescription 3D glasses. "These are so light -- maybe I'll just wear these all the time instead of my real glasses." Sure you will, Jeff. Sure you will.]]
19:40:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I don't seem to annoy oerjan
19:40:49 <Sgeo> Just you and elliott
19:40:53 <olsner> elliott: maybe that would let you see the world in 3D though?
19:40:57 <elliott> Wow, Sgeo has no idea how annoying he is.
19:40:59 <zzo38> j-invariant: Do you figure out the game yet? Remember you can block the door so that it won't close all the way, and then you get get out and go back in to the dragons room.
19:41:11 <zzo38> And then if you win, the other dragon will give you back the ammunition and give you the key.
19:41:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: represent as infinite stream of base 2, intermingle
19:41:25 <olsner> elliott: I mean, that would be *AWESOME*
19:41:40 <elliott> [[5:39PM Zoll's back! "Nature rules!" Oh, Zoll. Zolly Zoll Zoll.]]
19:41:45 <olsner> super HD *3D*, no less
19:42:12 <elliott> [[5:43PM "If you are to be successful, this child must be an inspiration to us all... a child of the 21st century. We must think of him every time we create a product." Can we never think of Zoll again, though? Is that also an option?]]
19:42:17 <zzo38> j-invariant: I give you a hint. Block the door while it is closing, and it won't close. And then you can go north, and then south and you can destroy the piece of the door. The dragon can be removed in the same way.
19:42:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you need to patch that up a bit because of the 0.111... = 1.000... issue, but that's essentially constructive, yes
19:42:48 <variable> Turing machines accept recursively enumerable languages. ---> what are "recursively enumerable languages"
19:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, the type of languages Turing machines accept.
19:43:23 <elliott> variable: languages that you can enumerate, recursively
19:43:35 <elliott> variable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursively_enumerable_language
19:43:40 <elliott> A recursively enumerable language is a formal language for which there exists a Turing machine (or other computable function) which will enumerate all valid strings of the language. Note that, if the language is infinite, the enumerating algorithm provided can be chosen so that it avoids repetitions, since we can test whether the string produced for number n is "already" produced for a number which is less than n. If it already is pro
19:43:40 <elliott> duced, use the output for input n+1 instead (recursively), but again, test whether it is "new".
19:43:45 <elliott> A recursively enumerable language is a formal language for which there exists a Turing machine (or other computable function) that will halt and accept when presented with any string in the language as input but may either halt and reject or loop forever when presented with a string not in the language. Contrast this to recursive languages, which require that the Turing machine halts in all cases.
19:44:52 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I don't seem to annoy oerjan <-- actually their constant picking on you annoys me more than you do. although you _do_ need to do something about your father issues. (so do i.)
19:45:24 <j-invariant> zzo38: I could destroy the door but the dragons still kill me
19:45:42 <elliott> oerjan: I tried to be nice to him and felt pity for his issues! but it was too much! too much!
19:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, if you go and tell Sgeo's father that he's a complete cretin I will be so happy.
19:45:56 <elliott> oerjan: so i've given up :(
19:46:26 <elliott> i'll go tell oerjan's father the same!
19:46:43 <zzo38> j-invariant: OK. Remember dragons cannot move diagonally. You can stand next to the north edge so the dragons step near there (you can move faster than dragons can). And now you can go back to the other board north and then east/west and then south.
19:47:57 <zzo38> Also dragons are allowed to move in lava, but it is difficult to see due to same color is red.
19:48:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try "fuck you".
19:49:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: Someone experienced with MegaZeux might or might not know this. But it can be learnable by the codes for MegaZeux, too.
19:49:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm sorry, your quota of people whom I should murder or kidnap has been exhausted.
19:49:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Fuck you", not murder or kidnap.
19:50:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Murder/kidnap would be a waste of time.
19:51:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is, in this case, well, well worth it.
19:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (This is in order that I have something to say when I rm -rf ~ * by accident.)
19:51:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I go for compound curses when that happens.
19:52:11 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes. Now you have to figure out which one is the real key. (You might create a save file at this point, in case you make mistake)
19:52:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Normal sentence: "...fucking...". rm -rf: "FUCKING PISS-SHITTING TWATBASKET"
19:52:32 <elliott> (OK, so more likely "Fuckfuchklfcucklik just deleted my home directory aaarhgiudfhgjkgljlkfhjd")
19:53:20 <zzo38> j-invariant: Good! Now you can ask the other dragon for the other key and they will give you back your ammunition, too.
19:53:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/IdiotProgramming
19:54:33 <elliott> [[Also from the programming side, libraries developed by the Department Of Redundancy Department where you have to lapse into Pokemon Speak to write any meaningful code. For instance, take this line from Debian's version of awesome's rc.lua:
19:54:34 <elliott> { "Debian", debian.menu.Debian_menu.Debian }
19:54:34 <elliott> To be clear, "menu" is the only member of "debian", and "Debian_menu" is the only member of "debian.menu".]]
19:54:38 <elliott> That is... not actually all that bad.
19:54:47 <elliott> Obviously "debian" is reserved for Debian-related stuff to avoid namespace clashing.
19:54:59 <elliott> debian.menu is reserved for {Debian menu}-related things.
19:55:09 <elliott> And the {Debian menu} contains the root item {Debian}, I believe, which is the actual Debian menu.
19:55:18 <elliott> I'd make it debian.menu.Debian, but still.
19:56:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Thing that irritates me about TV Trope: Linking every reference to MemeticMutation.
19:56:26 <elliott> I REALISE WHAT IT IS, I'M NOT AN IDIOT, I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE REFERENCING
19:56:29 <elliott> ALSO REFERENCES AREN'T MEMES
20:02:36 <elliott> ("-n":args') -> putStr (unwords args')
20:02:38 <elliott> _ -> putStrLn (unwords args)
20:08:53 <oerjan> main = do args <- getArgs; putStr . unwords $ case args of ("-n":args') -> args' ; _ -> args ++ ["\n"] -- I'm not sure I consider this an improvement...
20:10:16 <elliott> oerjan: erm does that not put a space before the newline
20:10:46 <zzo38> j-invariant: Now did you figure out the next part of this game?
20:10:56 <coppro> when did we get lambdabot?
20:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, when I convinced Cale to let us have it permanently with my dashing good looks and wit.
20:11:30 <oerjan> elliott: that means unwords cannot be combined :(
20:11:45 <j-invariant> zzo38: no this part is crazy! I will take a while to figure it out
20:11:52 <elliott> oerjan: just append \n to the last :D
20:12:00 <elliott> oerjan: (make sure this handles no args)
20:12:24 <oerjan> elliott: which sounds like it's unlikely to be shorter
20:12:46 <zzo38> j-invariant: After trying for a while if you cannot figure out, you can ask questions about things you do not know about the working of MegaZeux if you need to (such as how specific objects work and so on).
20:13:09 <elliott> oerjan: hm note that the case can be
20:13:22 <elliott> ("-n":args') -> putStr (unwords args')
20:13:22 <elliott> args' -> putStrLn (unwords args')
20:13:27 <elliott> but i don't think this helps
20:13:50 <oerjan> no, because you still cannot combine the args', not being in the same scope
20:14:25 <elliott> oh wait rhs isn't even the same there
20:14:37 <elliott> oerjan: we could have "helper f xs = f (unwords xs)"
20:19:00 <oerjan> main = do args <- getArgs; putStr . uncurry ((++) . unwords) $ case args of ("-n":args') -> (args',"") ; _ -> (args,"\n")
20:19:34 <elliott> oerjan: you are a bad person?
20:19:36 <elliott> I think you are a bad person
20:19:54 <elliott> oerjan: now make it point-free
20:20:24 <elliott> oerjan: main=do a<-getArgs;putStr.uncurry((++).unwords)$case a of("-n":b)->(b,"");_->(a,"\n")
20:20:28 <oerjan> point-free-ing case statements is not precisely nice
20:21:08 <elliott> main = eachFile ((B.putStr =<<) . B.hGetContents) =<< getArgs
20:21:14 <elliott> oerjan: do you think my cat implementation (pictured) is too readable?
20:21:40 * oerjan didn't even recall eachFile existed
20:23:03 <oerjan> google tells me System.IO.Utils has one
20:23:27 <elliott> eachFile :: (Handle -> IO ()) -> [String] -> IO ()
20:23:27 <elliott> eachFile f xs = mapM_ doFile xs
20:23:28 <elliott> where doFile "-" = f stdin
20:23:30 <elliott> doFile fn = withFile fn ReadMode f
20:23:48 <elliott> oerjan: I think I should probably split ((B.putStr =<<) . B.hGetContents) back into being named cat, though
20:25:53 <oerjan> that's B.hGetContents >>> B.putStr, i think
20:26:22 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
20:26:49 <lambdabot> forall b (m :: * -> *) c a. (Monad m) => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
20:28:31 <elliott> oerjan: so many fuckin arrows yo
20:28:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
20:28:44 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
20:28:47 <zzo38> Maybe, what should be have in TeXnicard, is a parser that can compile a Inform7-like code into a C code. So that you can use the cards in a computer game as well.
20:29:30 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
20:29:37 <lambdabot> source <lib>. Lookup the url of fptools libraries
20:29:59 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
20:30:18 <oerjan> oh wait it does say the module
20:30:44 * oerjan hasn't played with lambdabot for ages
20:30:45 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
20:30:48 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
20:30:53 <elliott> oerjan: well @source would not have worked, any way :)
20:31:48 <oerjan> >=> and <=< were added a couple years ago or so
20:32:41 <elliott> I think it uses the Report's Prelude code.
20:32:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: for sharing
20:32:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fix f = f (fix f) eats memory
20:32:53 <elliott> (without a sufficiently smart compiler)
20:32:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: to ensure the value is not reevaluated
20:32:58 <elliott> whereas "let x = f x" is more like a circular list
20:33:05 <elliott> except it's not a list, you know what i mean :)
20:33:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: except sometimes the _other_ choice also eats memory, so ghc does not always try to be smarter than you
20:34:37 <elliott> oerjan: at least, until it gets {-# LANGUAGE MindReading #-}
20:34:44 <oerjan> well maybe not in the case of fix
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20:36:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: however some of that code is shared with other compilers than ghc, or at least used to be when there were others
20:36:48 <oerjan> ghc may add rules pragmas for its own optimizations
20:38:05 <oerjan> some of the code may be inherited from the haskell 98 report
20:40:49 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:42:38 <elliott> e.g. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Yhc
20:42:42 <elliott> also nhc is an old one i think
20:44:59 <zzo38> What kind of card games have circular text boxes?
20:47:00 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
21:01:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=110095#p1626297
21:02:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Erm, are we looking at the same thing.
21:02:42 <elliott> [[[img]Minecraft%20lava[/img]
21:02:42 <elliott> I don't know whether this picture works, but it demonstrates the demonic power of above land lava!]]
21:02:49 <elliott> nooga: buy it, do drudge work on Cube on server.
21:05:48 <elliott> eachFileInteract f = eachFile (\h -> B.putStr =<< (f <$> B.hGetContents h))
21:09:41 <oerjan> eachFile (B.putStr . f <=< B.hGetContents)
21:10:50 <elliott> oerjan: THAT'S NOT POINT-FREE
21:11:48 <oerjan> eachFileInteract = eachFile . (<=< B.hGetContents) . (B.putStr .)
21:12:01 <elliott> oerjan: good! now inline all the functions
21:18:05 <elliott> Vorpal: i need a posix standards opinion
21:22:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=110095&sid=a30c290f6bd796ded3e2a348a40cf3c9&start=30#p1635944
21:24:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Is it OK if, e.g., rev(1) accepts only valid UTF-8?
21:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, is rev even POSIX?
21:25:11 <elliott> Vorpal: mentally substitute some other text processing filter, then
21:25:33 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:hsybox ehird$ echo 'häagen-dazs' | ./rev
21:25:33 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:hsybox ehird$ ./rev /dev/random
21:25:35 <elliott> rev: /dev/random: hGetContents: invalid argument (Illegal byte sequence)
21:25:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You are inferior.
21:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, such as sed or cut? hm
21:26:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Bonus question -- is it even valid to do the Right Thing on valid UTF-8, and do it dumbly on invalid text? Or does POSIX actually require that you mangle non-ASCII text?
21:26:28 <Vorpal> elliott, does POSIX say anything about it? (the utf-8 stuff)
21:27:12 <zzo38> I have idea. TeXnicard could ignore pages in the DVI file that have negative page numbers. This way you can check for whatsits in a box by \shipout\lastbox and similar things to that.
21:27:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I know posix from an user perspective, not from an implementer perspective. And my guess is that it is locale dependent
21:27:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you check posix yourself, my computer is too heavily loaded to open such a huge pdf
21:28:07 <elliott> I don't wanna dig through N pages. (Also, don't you just use the HTML version? It has a nicer UI.)
21:28:22 <Vorpal> elliott, is there one for POSIX.1-2008?
21:28:22 <Gregor> It seems to me that things like rev(1) would probably be required by POSIX to have no friggin' clue what Unicode is, and just recognize char 0x0A
21:28:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, except as far as I can tell from some quick checks rev(1) comes from BSD and is not specced by posix
21:29:21 <elliott> Vorpal: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/
21:29:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well, back when I downloaded 2008 it was like 2 weeks after being ratified. And there was no html version then
21:29:53 <elliott> Vorpal: boosters have apparently been fixed in the source code repository according to heresy
21:29:57 <elliott> enjoy redoing your minecart tracks
21:30:08 <elliott> as in they don't work any more.
21:30:32 <Vorpal> elliott, how reliable is this source?
21:30:37 <oerjan> a very obvious definition of "fixed"
21:30:42 <elliott> Like, TWO people on Minecraft forums! http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=128232
21:31:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well could just be a rather mediocre hoax
21:32:53 <Vorpal> elliott, played with craftbook on local test server btw. It's fun. Stuff like elevators with signs where you right click on sign to go up/down and bridges and what not
21:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, it's a nice hmod plugin
21:33:24 <Vorpal> haven't tried it's minecart stuff but it does have some booster blocks and such
21:36:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a hmod plugin that seems rather nice
21:36:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also I decided that the castle was not viable even when scaled down. Considering if I might do it with worldedit or similar. If I make the inner fort in obsidian it would be about 60000 obsidian or so I think. Which would be awesome but utterly infeasible without help from such a mod.
21:36:58 <Vorpal> heck it would be a pain even in other materials
21:37:12 <Vorpal> oh and that would be just hollow, rouge approximation
21:37:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Why not just make it manually, you have like 9348579845793845798345365 resources...
21:38:07 <elliott> ha! /me spawned OFF a beach
21:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, not on my local test server no. And even with faster-render and region save single player is still unplayably slow.
21:38:34 <Vorpal> (the server I can run on another computer on the lan)
21:38:47 <Vorpal> (one with good cpu but sucky intel graphics)
21:39:06 <elliott> huh spawned above sea level
21:39:11 <zzo38> I think C ought to have a #try #catch that works at *compile time* (not at run time).
21:39:33 <zzo38> elliott: Catching compiler errors and warnings.
21:39:49 <Vorpal> actually that sounds quite interesting (also rather mad)
21:40:44 <Vorpal> elliott, hey seeing "uncaught syntax error" would be epic :P
21:41:02 <Vorpal> or uncaught syntax exception I guess
21:41:39 <elliott> incidentally, wtf mcedit is hard to use.
21:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is. And for me it is slow too
21:42:34 <elliott> Cobblestone doesn't come naturally, does it.
21:42:44 <Vorpal> elliott, it does. Lava + water. Also in dungeons
21:42:54 <elliott> did i mention that sand fell to reveal this :D
21:42:56 <Vorpal> elliott, dungeons have non-mossy as well
21:43:12 <elliott> haha... the dungeon spawned underneath sand
21:43:14 <elliott> and the sand fell when i spawned
21:43:17 <Sgeo> Ugh, where's my thumb drive?
21:43:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that sort of stuff happens.
21:43:34 <elliott> usually not right next to spawn though
21:43:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why do you ask *us* that?
21:44:39 <elliott> wtf, dungeon without a chest :(
21:45:13 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it isn't hidden under the sand?
21:45:27 <Vorpal> elliott, cleared away all the sand to the cobble walls?
21:45:35 <elliott> underneath the remaining sand is just stone
21:45:35 <Sgeo> Does gravel have a use?
21:46:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, certainly. For draining.
21:46:20 <Vorpal> pretty much same use as sand (except you can't smelt it for anything)
21:46:40 * Phantom_Hoover decides that he will torrent as much Red Dwarf as he can get his hands on.
21:46:51 <Vorpal> Sgeo, drop it in, it will sink down. Easy to remove using the usual torch trick (see wiki if you don't know it)
21:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, craftbook has "redstone ICs" too. Including stuff like light level detector, 3-bit prng, water sensor, and what not. Oh and you can make redstone controlled torches. And pumpkins. So you can make light switches :)
21:48:55 <elliott> I wonder why pumpkins/torches aren't redstoned.
21:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, pikhq, one of the two of you please pick a torrent from http://torrentz.eu/search?f=red+Dwarf
21:49:29 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and there are some ICs that require admin privs it seems. Such as "set time of day". I just combined a light detector and that to reset to day as soon as dusk comes. Waiting to see if it will work.
21:50:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They all look like shitty xvid.
21:50:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Look for the DVD ISOs and transcode yourself.
21:50:41 <elliott> pikhq: I think that might ... not be what he wants. But yeah, agreed :P
21:50:56 <Vorpal> elliott, yay, it resets to just-after-sunrise about 2 seconds after the light level starts to decrease during dusk. Hm that is actually kind of useful when building stuff outdoors.
21:51:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Now turn monsters on.
21:51:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then download anything.
21:51:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: If it's not h.264 it's a waste of disk space.
21:51:49 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, stop being a zealot.
21:51:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:52:08 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe. Maybe not. It has health of and worldedit on. So it is very much a creative testing server :P
21:52:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, if there aren't any h.264 torrents which won't take until the heat death of the universe to download, I'm fine with wasting disk space.
21:52:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://torrentz.eu/e9e838463c428d6e169fdf9c4a0858bb5fc71cd4
21:52:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Go for that.
21:52:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just disable season 8 or whatever.
21:52:36 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not even being a zealot here!
21:52:45 <elliott> It's the biggest one with enough seeders to download well.
21:53:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Er, right.
21:53:23 <pikhq> elliott: Especially since most Xvid stuff is downscaled, and it's *all* at what would be, for h.264, an *insanely* high bitrate.
21:53:39 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
21:53:47 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but sourcing ISOs is nearly impossible.
21:53:57 <Vorpal> elliott, also if you don't like the bridge in it you can make toggleable areas. Like you build something. Mark it with worldedit (craftbook and worldedit have the same author), then use a save area command. Then you can make redstone control this, replacing it with empty air or with another saved area. To switch between them. You can make quite fancy bridges that way.
21:53:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, OK, but turning my nose up at it is not something I'm going to do if there aren't any other options.
21:54:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, you do realise that there isn't any season 9?
21:54:18 <pikhq> Though there were a lot of Red Dwarf PAL ISOs there...
21:54:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The Back to Earth three-parter is sometimes referred to as season 9 for god-knows-what-reason.
21:55:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, that sets off my crap detectors so I'll leave it for now.
21:55:04 <pikhq> elliott: Sort by size, look at the torrents that are about 4 gig.
21:55:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Season 8 is also pretty bad, I gather.
21:55:28 <elliott> pikhq: http://torrentz.eu/searchS?q=red+dwarf
21:55:36 <elliott> pikhq: The top one there is 2 gigs of xvid.
21:56:03 <elliott> pikhq: OK, all I see is remastered ones and a few others.
21:56:16 <elliott> Certainly no reliable way to get all of them without stupid remastering. OR even with.
21:56:38 <pikhq> Ah, fuck, they are unseeded.
21:56:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Twitchy"?
21:56:50 <pikhq> WHY DO PEOPLE STILL USE XVID. IT SUCKS.
21:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I get paranoid if it doesn't start downloading quickly.
21:57:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Fill in trackers from torrentz. Forget it exists for five hours. Come back.
21:59:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it stupid to wish there was some kind of sequencing operator for torrents?
22:00:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's called pause and resume.
22:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be impossible to prioritise early files for download?
22:00:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can do that manually.
22:00:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Go into properties, files, set the first ones to high priority.
22:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Opinion: Just about every block should react to a redstone current. Also, redstone currents should be able to move blocks somehow.
22:00:59 <elliott> That would be 90% of the way to letting you make a dig-o-matic bot.
22:02:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Whats the texture pack" -- in reply to someone using the default texture pack.
22:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but presumably it'd need some finite resource to power it?
22:02:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I just imagined a blocky variant of one of those huge digging machines you see on pics sometimes. Forgot the name of it. Started with B iirc.
22:02:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Finite resource: sure, time. Minecart perpetual motion machines already exist anyway :P
22:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, you'd have to make a turbine generator and attach it to a furnace.
22:03:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I was about to say that you should be able to, like, burn a "deactivated redstone torch" item in a furnace, and it'd become a redstone source.
22:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, not if boosters are fixed
22:03:31 <Vorpal> elliott, then they don't
22:03:32 <elliott> (With normal redstone torches being removed.)
22:04:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't get yours, would you just put coal in a furnace and no items?
22:04:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes I agree your idea is better
22:04:08 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:04:11 <elliott> snow on top of a pumpkin :D
22:04:22 <impomatic> What happened to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net ? Has it moved?
22:04:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But there's no fluid involved. >_>
22:04:36 <elliott> impomatic: it is, as always, at esolangs.org; voxelperfect expired
22:04:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can s/deactivated redstone torch/anything/ in my idea.
22:04:55 <oklopol> you people haven't spelunked much have ya
22:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You then have some kind of pipe-based thing, and a heat exchanger item.
22:05:02 <oklopol> all the caves near cube are unlooked-at
22:05:02 <impomatic> Quite a few links on the esolang wiki to voxelperfect addresses.
22:05:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The point is that furnacing an item would make the furnace act as a redstone torch.
22:05:24 <elliott> With redstone torches being removed.
22:05:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ideally, there'd be some way to "push" blocks into furnaces with some kind of machine, so the miner could power itself :) (if it found those blocks)
22:06:01 <Vorpal> elliott, removing them would be a PITA. You could no longer make inverters. Or any logic.
22:06:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, yes, but this way you can also use hydroelectric power. Although water flow would have to be made finite or somesuch.
22:06:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably you'd just fuel up a stack of redstone torches and it'd use them.
22:06:30 <elliott> Weird, exposed stone outside (a lot of it).
22:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well you called your a source. That means it always generate, no?
22:06:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Meh, you can easily build a constant flow.
22:06:43 <Vorpal> elliott, unlike redstone torches
22:06:44 <elliott> Just route the furnace-torch to two places.
22:06:55 <elliott> Vorpal: It acts exactly like a redstone torch when burning.
22:07:09 <Vorpal> elliott, how would you place it on the side of a block then?
22:07:23 <Vorpal> elliott, because that is what makes logic work
22:07:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 1 uranium burns to produce 64 toxic wastes.
22:08:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. :p The point is that it takes ages to smelt.
22:08:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So given enough coal it'd run forever.
22:08:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Toxic wastes in a furnace make it corrode, or something, so you have to pick them up, but if you hold them for too long you start losing health gradually.
22:08:40 <elliott> But they solidify water into, I dunno, obsidian.
22:08:49 <elliott> Make glass decay, trees to die. Etc.
22:08:54 <elliott> Why, throwing it into lava, of course.
22:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I wasn't thinking of having uranium burnable by itself, FWIW.
22:09:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should uranium be the smelted item or the fuel?
22:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd smelt uranium ore into uranium blocks, both of which would cause gradual and persistent health damage.
22:09:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you plan on writing a mod to do this?
22:09:48 <elliott> I'm fantasising, like Sgeo but more awesome.
22:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Then you craft the blocks into a core by surrounding them with iron, and use that as a fuel.
22:10:07 <Vorpal> elliott, less awesome. I think Phantom_Hoover's suggestion was a lot better
22:10:17 <elliott> Vorpal: um his and mine suggestions are working off each others
22:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well the turbine one I meant
22:10:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I approve.
22:11:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, what do things do when hit by a current.
22:11:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ooh. Maybe lanterns _are_ a good idea.
22:11:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Torches expire, and lanterns need a current to run.
22:11:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So you'd end up mining to keep your house's main generator running.
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22:12:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No no no, I was meaning constructing your own.
22:13:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As in, logic gates for... logic, and using the advanced circuitry's interactions with blocks to actually move a mining-vehicle along a track.
22:14:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably.
22:14:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe we should call it something else, considering it'd probably end up totally different.
22:14:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Bluestone?
22:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, a more elegant method than redstone wiring would be necessary.
22:15:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Obviously minecarts would interact with bluestone. Ooh, I know.
22:15:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you put a bluestone current into a minecart track, it pushes any cart on it forward at X speed.
22:16:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So you can make a booster-style system by having a generator, and just having it follow the track, occasionally splitting into "further along the track" and "rightwards to boost the track".
22:16:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: COMPLICATEDLY, I don't wanna think about wiring :P
22:16:24 <variable> how do I tell if a file exists in Haskell ?
22:16:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Right-clicking with bluestone lets you run more cables through.
22:17:04 <elliott> 22:16 elliott: @hoogle FilePath -> IO Bool
22:17:04 <elliott> 22:16 lambdabot: System.Directory doesDirectoryExist :: FilePath -> IO Bool
22:17:05 <elliott> 22:16 lambdabot: System.Directory doesFileExist :: FilePath -> IO Bool
22:17:07 <elliott> 22:16 lambdabot: System.Console.Editline.Readline readHistory :: FilePath -> IO Bool
22:17:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MAYBE, DO NOT WANT TO THINK, LEAST FUN PART OF THIS
22:18:01 <elliott> variable: @hoogle is your friend :-)
22:18:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I always feel misanthropically bitter when I get download rates a tenth of my seeding rates on a torrent.
22:19:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You lay some bluestone on the top of some obsidian, and then on the right of it. Catch: The right of it is immersed in lava.
22:20:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me this works and you can send currents to lava to do awesome things.
22:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It would be nice to have proper water and lava manipulation.
22:21:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe the lava should travel backwards as fire along the circuit :D
22:21:36 <elliott> That would let you hook up an automated-burner; just flick a switch and burn whatever's on the other end.
22:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And make water conductive, because chemistry is boring.
22:22:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm talking about when a current hits a block, though (think how TNT behaves now).
22:22:35 <elliott> Obviously a current hitting a lava block should do SOMETHING fun.
22:23:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Lava blocks are sort of already fire.
22:24:19 <oklopol> ineiros: did you know your pit is just next to a huge cave system... only have to break a few blocks to get to your staircase, not telling you how i know tho
22:26:08 <oklopol> cobblestone burns SLOOOOOW
22:27:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I should point out that we can get pretty thorough pictures of underground areas with mcmap
22:27:47 <elliott> oklopol: cobblestone burns?
22:28:06 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:32:56 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: if by that you mean i should be more careful, then yes, i certainly try to avoid stuff like this, i just didn't realize the cave went under the fucking mountain
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22:34:45 <oklopol> but you could only do it by lava bucket, and it'd take one whole bucket
22:35:10 <oklopol> maybe it was seconds, but anyway
22:35:59 <oklopol> ineiros must have gotten pretty pissed, i keep timing out
22:37:36 <oklopol> i... forgot to take the stone out, and picked the stove
22:38:06 <oklopol> and the coal, mined about a hundred of that stuff, now i have 20 something
22:39:12 <oklopol> well you need one coal like every 5 seconds
22:39:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Feel free to get some from Mt. Hoover or the ROU; my supplies are enough for me.
22:39:38 <oklopol> i put a torch on every square
22:40:02 <oklopol> but anyway yeah, it's common, but i don't have a box full of it yet
22:40:09 <oklopol> because i just started mining
22:40:13 <elliott> oklopol: lame, i mine every block in a tunnel i go in, fill it with lava, then cover it with glass
22:40:19 <elliott> best lighting system for spelunking imo
22:40:20 <oklopol> you have something like one stack there or what?
22:41:59 <elliott> oklopol: did you know that if you destroy a chest without using a pick, just your hands, it keeps the items inside and you can store it in your inventory?
22:42:16 <elliott> oklopol: so you can store like 36 chests with items in your inventory
22:42:47 <oklopol> that is very useful, if it's true
22:43:21 <oklopol> maybe i won't even need a base then
22:44:21 <oklopol> so what about a box, can you store a box full of stuff in a box?
22:44:34 <oklopol> because i could just carry a castle around then.
22:44:52 <oklopol> "here come's oklopol with a bag full of a fucking 64x64x64 diamond castle"
22:45:29 <elliott> oklopol: hmm i guess you could actually
22:45:33 <elliott> i mean, it's just breaking the box that has the items in
22:45:45 <elliott> oklopol: but getting an item out of 10 nested boxes might be a bitch :D
22:46:31 <oklopol> yeah like i'd ever actually *use* the stuff i'm carrying
22:48:49 <elliott> I EVEN ASKED YOU IN /MSG NOT TO TELL
22:48:55 <elliott> i was going to keep that up for days
22:49:06 <oklopol> i would've just tried after this tho
22:49:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A POX UPON YOU
22:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I checked here, and I didn't associate the two at all.
22:49:24 <oklopol> well it was kinda obvious he was lying
22:49:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you were telling me not to tell David Braben he was a dick
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22:54:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, there are people who don't understand why people would not like InvEdit much.
22:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> People tend not to be very tolerant of people who enjoy different forms of play to them.
22:55:45 <oklopol> invedit = ability to put stuff in your inventory?
22:55:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Even I dislike InvEdit to a degree... i.e., I'm not going to think of much of a gigantic superstructure if it was built entirely with InvEdit.
22:56:10 <elliott> oklopol: lets you put whatever you want in your inventory and change various random shit like getting infinite health, tool health, etc.
22:56:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yesyesyes, but we can't just say //giveme 5 diamond blocks and 1000 obsidian
22:57:25 <oklopol> what is that, i have no way to guess
22:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, things like that Enterprise would be impressive if they had been built by hand at all.
22:58:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Eh, sure. Still.
22:58:18 <elliott> "OMG I MADE A HUGE CASTLE" "but didn't mine a block to make it"... meh.
22:58:29 <elliott> oklopol: autominer is me and Phantom_Hoover's hypothetical machine built with bluestone
22:58:35 <elliott> where bluestone is a hypothetical circuit system far better than redstone
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22:58:48 <elliott> powerful enough to build an automatic mining tool with that can even power itself (assuming it finds the right ore)
22:58:59 <elliott> it would, however, be gigantic :D
22:59:14 <elliott> you'd probably want one central computer and underground wires leading to all the places you want to mine
22:59:20 <elliott> rather than making multiple ones
22:59:27 <oerjan> <oklopol> well it was kinda obvious he was lying <-- well, with all they've been speaking about notch being a lousy programmer... although such a cheat would probably be a high priority to fix.
22:59:27 <oklopol> yeah i'm not saying you can't build an identicle in mc
22:59:36 <oklopol> just that you can't make a nice one
23:00:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:00:46 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah, but i figured it was a multiplayer specific feature no one mentioned to me, because no one else actually needs boxes
23:00:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:00:59 <oklopol> elliott: identicle was defined in a conversation a few months ago here
23:01:20 <elliott> 10.12.01:13:29:43 <oklofok> elliott: let's talk about identicles instead
23:01:29 <elliott> 10.12.01:12:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the principle is identicle.
23:01:31 <elliott> indeed that is the principle
23:01:33 <oklopol> well in this case, something that is able to destroy everything
23:01:36 <elliott> oklopol: few months ago = december
23:01:42 <elliott> it ... felt like it was ages ago though, what
23:01:52 <oklopol> elliott: yeah i don't really experience time quite as linearly as most people
23:02:00 <elliott> oklopol: you could do that with bluestone kinda
23:02:14 <elliott> oklopol: you know what redstone does?
23:02:17 <elliott> that, but much more advanced
23:02:27 <elliott> oklopol: basically, it involves redesigning 1/4th of the whole game :D
23:02:30 <elliott> but it'd be so much cooler
23:02:31 <oklopol> i know what redstone does, but haven't really used it much
23:02:49 <elliott> you could basically make a rabid auto-miner that fuels itself, except while normally you'd make it only work on a cave and only mine useful stuff
23:02:54 <elliott> you could make one that just eats everything
23:03:00 <elliott> and assuming it gets enough fuel to keep it going...
23:03:20 <oklopol> you won't without the recursive boxing
23:03:33 <oklopol> you won't get positive prob in the limit with fixed inv size
23:03:55 <elliott> oklopol: it would just throw them into a lava pit
23:04:00 <elliott> or get rid of them some other way
23:04:39 <elliott> oklopol: the blocks it mines?
23:05:16 <elliott> oklopol: the idea is basically: mine everything; stuff that can be used as fuel goes in the furnace-power-generator; everything else gets destroyed
23:05:19 <oklopol> i just realized fixed inventory size doesn't matter because you can just leave blocks in stacks or something, until you've proven you have enough later on or something
23:05:32 <elliott> eventually the whole world would just be, like, bluestone circuits
23:05:38 <elliott> or actually just bedrock with this hovering death-machine in the sky
23:05:44 <elliott> since it'd mine the blocks that it puts bluestone on eventually
23:05:48 <elliott> which would cause it to fall
23:05:50 <oklopol> right you actually do need fuel
23:06:00 <elliott> oklopol: yeah in this case there'd be no redstone torches
23:06:05 <oklopol> so then what i said earlier: eventually it'll stop
23:06:07 <elliott> you'd have to burn a certain item in a furnace and that'd generate current
23:06:12 <elliott> oklopol: sure, but the point is,
23:06:19 <elliott> oklopol: whenever it mines fuel, it uses it to fuel itself
23:06:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: ok, sometimes the info to the pascalites, release v, level 1.2.
23:06:31 <elliott> oklopol: and it'd have multiple redundant furnaces to keep it going
23:06:46 <elliott> oklopol: sure if you had a GIGANTIC area with no useful fuels... but then you could just double the initial furnaces and try again :>
23:06:47 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:07:12 <oklopol> elliott: can it build more furnaces or something?
23:07:25 <oklopol> the point is, if it only has a fixed amount of storage for excess fuel
23:07:33 <oklopol> then the probability of stopping is 1
23:07:36 <elliott> oklopol: the world is finite, you recall.
23:07:46 <elliott> although i suppose you are working in a hypothetical infinite universe :)
23:07:57 <oklopol> mathematically more interesting
23:07:58 <elliott> oklopol: it could build more furnaces, sure, if it got the materials
23:08:11 <oklopol> otherwise i could just say there's positive prob for the world being empty
23:08:14 <elliott> oklopol: and the probability of getting the requisite cobbles for building a furnace before it dies is, like, 1, according to the minecraft rng
23:08:43 <elliott> oklopol: note that this death machine would have to be VERY complicated and would probably take up more space than the alu or cpu :)
23:08:53 <elliott> since not only does it have to mine, but it has to plan its mining so that it leaves enough tracks for _it_ to go on
23:09:06 <oklopol> well, if it can build arbitrarily large amounts of furnaces, maybe you can manage it, at least then it's not trivial that you can't.
23:09:09 <elliott> and also it has to bring the materials back, decide what to do with them, build more furnaces, move them into place, dispose of waste from uranium fuel, etc.
23:09:40 <oklopol> sure, but that's just engineering ;)
23:09:53 <oklopol> any monkey with a phd can do it
23:09:56 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, FWIW, nuclear bombs are the other use for uranium.
23:10:01 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: oh joy :D
23:10:41 <Phantom__Hoover> Craft uranium, dynamite and iron into a bomb, which is then detonatable by a bluestone charge.
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23:11:03 <oklopol> i'd like to craft HER anium if you know what i mean
23:11:17 <elliott> pikhq: the project gutenberg license is non-free :D
23:11:39 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: how big boom
23:12:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I suggest it requires one uranium, four dynamite, and four iron
23:12:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: uranium in middle, surrounded by dynamite, iron in the corners
23:12:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: actually iron is a bit out of place...
23:12:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: it's too common
23:12:42 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: may i suggest diamond? :D
23:12:59 <Phantom__Hoover> Well, the point is that the uranium is the really rare bit.
23:13:23 <Phantom__Hoover> Also, there would be *very* few reasons to detonate it unless in PvP SMP.
23:14:06 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Griefer's dream. Well, really dedicated mining griefer.
23:14:21 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean, I'm thinking of damage on the order of scouring all of the earth for kilometres around, and making vast areas unusable due to radiation.
23:14:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I suggest that smelting uranium ore produces only one uranium.
23:14:52 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: But counts as, say, 16 to 32 units of smelting.
23:14:55 <elliott> So you need, e.g., more than one coal to do it.
23:15:23 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: OH I HAVE A WONDERFUL IDEA
23:15:36 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: The utility is that smelting uranium becomes slower and more resource-using.
23:15:42 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: WONDERFUL IDEA:
23:15:49 <Phantom__Hoover> Once you have any uranium ore, you'll have heaps of coal anyway.
23:15:51 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: When using uranium as a fuel for smelting, I said it produces 64 nuclear waste.
23:16:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It produces, say, 512 nuclear waste. If it has 64 and wants to generate another one, the furnace *explodes*.
23:16:31 <elliott> Specifically, all bluestone it's connected to catches fire, and an explosion is made.
23:16:38 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: That, of course, is the reactor meltdown.
23:17:03 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Maybe more than one TNT, reactor meltdowns are pretty nasty.
23:17:32 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, due to nuclear leakage, not due to explosive power.
23:17:44 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Oh, fine. You're no fun but okay.
23:18:15 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Of course, you could "wrap" this up in a safe reactor, which uses BLUESTONE MAGIC to take out the nuclear waste and dispose of it safely. Or even, if you want a small design.
23:18:29 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean, you end up with an effectively unusable patch of lang.
23:18:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: just have one that detects when the thing becomes full of nuclear waste and takes out the uranium.
23:18:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Oo, er, slight issue.
23:19:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: 32 full of nuclear waste in smelting output. You take the uranium out. You put it back in.
23:19:15 <elliott> ZOMG INFINITE URANIUM POWER
23:20:03 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, make the uranium inaccessible like coal and other normal fuels?
23:20:25 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Then how do you prevent meltdown if it fills with nuclear waste? Oh, duh, you destroy the furnace.
23:20:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Or that, yes.
23:20:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: OK, so the simplest safe reactor would be a furnace hooked up to a circuit that detects when there's 64 waste, and destroys the furnace.
23:21:05 <elliott> Although detecting when there's 64 waste would probably require a chest to do it in, at which point you might as well just use the disposal-version.
23:21:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Hmm, I feel like being able to destroy nuclear waste easily in lava is a bit of a cop out.
23:21:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: How about: Throwing nuclear waste into lava gradually irradiates it. When it fully radiates, it turns into obsidian.
23:21:38 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: No, this makes no sense, but who cares?
23:22:06 <Phantom__Hoover> MC doesn't *have* any mechanic to make anything impossible to dispose, really;
23:22:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And then a self-sustaining circuit would then mine the obsidian, get more lava, put lava in the hole again, and throw the obsidian into the lava.
23:22:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And no, but impossible to dispose is boring; this just makes it _annoying_ to dispose of in large amounts.
23:22:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: omg, I so want to have all of this in the game ... but the Java work would be immense, and Notch would break it every update.
23:23:09 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, erm, you can just throw things and leave them for 15 minutes.
23:23:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Thrown nuclear waste acts like placed nuclear waste.
23:23:45 <elliott> i.e. gradually irradiates a large surrounding area.
23:24:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And ideally it'd remember what chunks have thrown nuclear waste in, and record when it was thrown in the chunk file.
23:24:27 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, then just make a chamber deep underground and throw everything there.
23:24:57 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: "Too irradiated to use"?
23:25:04 <elliott> Anyway, I would imagine that radiation has infinite upwards extent.
23:25:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes, but you reach a point where it kills you in 5 seconds.
23:25:49 <elliott> So basically throwing it in a pit doesn't help.
23:26:59 <oklopol> can't you just make it a block that cannot be dropped
23:27:18 <elliott> oklopol: Yes, that's probably the best idea.
23:27:33 <oklopol> because the point is you need to find a place for it, if you can just put 64 in a 1x1x1 hole, that's kinda lame
23:28:18 * oklopol is looking at himself on top of a dancing minecart
23:28:58 <elliott> oklopol: :D i've done that before
23:29:13 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Consider...
23:29:46 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Also, idea: N-thick (3?) obsidian blocks all radiation. Dump nuclear waste by storing it in large chests surrounded by thick obsidian. Make creepy underground passageways with warning signs to there. NEVER VISIT EVER.
23:30:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: "This place is not a place of honour", etc.
23:30:21 <elliott> (Have you read that paper or a summary of it of any kind? It's awesome.)
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23:31:05 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Idea: Dropping nuclear waste starts irradiating the area around you EXTREMELY rapidly.
23:31:13 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Makes no sense? Absolutely. Will stop anyone dropping it? Absolutely.
23:31:28 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: why is it silly?
23:31:50 <elliott> oklopol: imagine an object in your pocket you can't throw out
23:31:55 <elliott> but not being able to throw something?
23:32:30 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, it just makes the whole idea pointlessly impractical.
23:33:02 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: then maybe you could have less then 64 of it, and you can't just carry it around in huge quantities, or you'll start getting damage at some point
23:33:02 <Phantom__Hoover> Other idea: iron chests which block radiation enough to make it practical to store uranium.
23:33:06 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: WRT those nuclear warnings, I have a feeling that future idiotic explorers might see it as "ha ha, this primitive culture thought they could keep us away from their treasure by making up some 'death-ium'!"
23:33:24 <elliott> OTOH, maybe it's best that such recklessness has its consequences demonstrated in the early days of a society.
23:33:28 <oklopol> 's chest idea makes it wait he explained
23:33:28 <elliott> oklopol: don't see how what
23:33:40 <oklopol> i think that's even sillier
23:33:50 <Phantom__Hoover> (Gold blocks make best sense as shielding, followed by much larger amounts of iron.)
23:34:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Just make gold chests.
23:34:08 <elliott> Gold would become actually useful.
23:34:20 <Phantom__Hoover> (Obsidian would actually be pretty useless IRL, since it's mainly silicon.)
23:34:25 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I do think that you should be able to hold on to uranium for a few in-game days without starting to feel the radiation.
23:34:29 <elliott> I mean, you need to handle it.
23:34:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: OTOH, gold chests should probably decay if given tons of time.
23:35:07 <oklopol> you get radiation bubbles which start popping every few hours
23:35:19 <oklopol> ofc if you're holding 64...
23:35:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I do think that obsidian should block it, 'cuz obsidian is basically made out of magic in Minecraft.
23:35:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: But only thick obsidian.
23:35:31 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And it must have *no holes*.
23:35:34 <elliott> Any holes --> radiation gets out.
23:35:56 <elliott> Obsidian-coated gold chests is what you do every real-world month to dispose of your current pile-up of waste.
23:36:06 <elliott> (You do NOT want to break that obsidian.)
23:36:27 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Oh, and perhaps you need to leave enough space for the chest to burst.
23:36:42 <elliott> i.e. if you store 64 obsidian in a gold chest, you need 63 free blocks surrounded by obsidian around the chest.
23:36:51 <elliott> So that when the chest decays and the waste bursts out, it doesn't escape.
23:37:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Aaaand this is why it's sad that an awesome programmer didn't think of MC before Notch did.
23:38:02 <elliott> Instead he's deciding on release dates and getting a documentary filmed.
23:39:29 <Phantom__Hoover> Is there a chance of us getting a decent game in the same vein any time soon?
23:40:01 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Clearly that must be Heavy Hoover FUN Industries' second product after ASTEROIDS II: NEWTONIAN BOOGALOO.
23:40:09 <elliott> *Hoover Heavy FUN Industries'
23:42:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: oklopol's game will probably be decent if impossible.
23:42:20 <zzo38> I figured out how I could make it read the log file, almost. I could do like: tex example > example.fot and then read that file in using TeX. But it won't work unless file contains \message{} command to force it to wake up otherwise it won't read past a certain point.
23:42:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's like Minecraft except 2D and it has no textures and creatures are super-deadly and everything is random and he came up with it before MC
23:43:24 <oklopol> no i came up with this particular one tons after mc, i just hadn't heard about mc
23:43:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Also, oklopol HAS made games before, albeit impossible-to-play ones.
23:43:31 <elliott> oklopol: same thing really
23:43:35 <elliott> oklopol: independent invention
23:43:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: What about it.
23:43:46 <oklopol> well now mine has also all the few good ideas of mc
23:43:59 <elliott> Oh, right, oklopol also invented Asteroids II unintentionally.
23:44:18 <zzo38> I made a lot of game too but probably nothing like that.
23:44:31 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, remember that polygon gravitational thing you mentioned?
23:44:41 <elliott> oklopol: Asteroids II is the game slowly crawling its way outside of the 2D Newtonian physics simulation.
23:44:46 <oklopol> you're growing that out of that thing of yours?
23:45:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: http://vjn.fi/index.php?g=0 oklo's games plus some other stuff
23:45:52 <oklopol> the mc type game of mine will mostly be about coding bots, you can't really survive otherwise
23:46:11 <elliott> oklopol: are the .exes python-compiled
23:46:14 <elliott> or are they not written in py
23:46:23 <oklopol> (you're not supposed to let your player die)
23:46:30 <oklopol> erm actually i'm considering using c#
23:46:35 <elliott> oklopol: i mean the games you've made
23:46:38 <oklopol> since someone taught me to make pixels in it..
23:46:47 <oklopol> c++ and non-compiled python
23:46:55 <zzo38> oklopol: Why do you have to use C# if just C should work?
23:47:04 <oklopol> i don't know how to make a pixel in c
23:47:15 <oklopol> also, C is the worst language in the world
23:47:31 <oklopol> well who wouldn't, but i'd rather use c++
23:47:42 <elliott> oklopol: putpixel(screen, x, y, colour)
23:47:46 <zzo38> oklopol: Why you don't know how? And what is so bad with C? I prefer Enhanced CWEB to make a C program.
23:47:57 <elliott> although _putpixel() is faster
23:48:02 <elliott> you just have to decide what colour depth you want
23:48:06 <oklopol> zzo38: i don't know how to make a pixel because no one told me how one is drawn
23:48:16 <elliott> oklopol: putpixel(screen, x, y, colour)
23:48:18 <Phantom__Hoover> zzo38, STOP MENTIONING YOUR GODDAMN _EXTENSION_ TO A PREEXISTING PROGRAM SOMEONE ELSE WROTE.
23:48:28 <elliott> oklopol: fully: putpixel(screen, x, y, makecol(r, g, b))
23:48:33 <zzo38> oklopol: It depends what system you are using for screen drawing.
23:48:42 <elliott> oklopol: so now you gotta use C! also it'll be faster :p
23:48:46 <zzo38> Like, it might be different SDL with Allegro, for example.
23:48:46 <oklopol> elliott: but so can i just open a text editor, write that inside mine and compile?
23:48:48 <elliott> and have a better chance of running on linux
23:49:07 <elliott> oklopol: you have to put allegro_init(); first and then like a few lines to tell it what size screen you want
23:49:12 <elliott> oklopol: plus tell it that you, like, want a keyboard
23:49:21 <elliott> allegro is very simple as these things go
23:49:50 <zzo38> I prefer to use SDL, but you can use Allegro if you prefer.
23:49:57 <elliott> oklopol: http://alleg.sourceforge.net/docs/how_to_make_a_pong_game.en.html Pong in Allegro, obviously you can ignore all the stupid image/sprite/mouse stuff
23:49:58 <oklopol> well, that does sound nice enough. but the pathfinding algos i have are rather complicated, and would probably be faster in c# than me-written c
23:50:09 <elliott> oklopol: erm i find that doubtful
23:50:13 <elliott> oklopol: unless you're like a mega leet c# coder
23:50:26 <elliott> since ~pretty much the same algorithm can be done in C for all such algorithms
23:50:36 <elliott> and C has the advantage of not having all the vm baggage and also of having well-tuned compilers
23:50:41 <zzo38> oklopol: Is there a problem with C that you cannot do #try #catch that operating at *compile time*?
23:50:47 <oklopol> well i certainly am not, but i don't understand anything about cache of anything, and i can't exactly just load chunks when player goes near like mc can
23:51:11 <elliott> oklopol: well uh C# doesn't cache for you
23:51:16 <elliott> it's not that much higher-level than C
23:51:18 <elliott> objects don't solve caching :P
23:51:21 <elliott> oklopol: so you're gonna simulate an infinite world every frame?
23:51:23 <oklopol> zzo38: the problem is C isn't very high level
23:51:33 <oklopol> i mean i find math too low level
23:51:34 <elliott> C# is just java with lambdas.
23:51:56 <oklopol> nowadays i prefer lack of communication.
23:52:22 <elliott> oklopol: or oklotalk! write it in oklotalk
23:52:36 <Phantom__Hoover> zzo38, do you seriously not realise that you are just being annoying by constantly bringing up your own solutions to problems nobody has.
23:52:48 <oklopol> elliott: no i'm not going to simulate an infinite world every frame, that would mean nth iteration takes Omega(n) times
23:53:03 <zzo38> I like C, but I think it should have a few more compile-time directives such as ones to catch compiler errors and warnings, and to tell the optimizer about various things that might even be wrong...
23:53:05 <oklopol> but i'm simulating a huge part of the world, preferably
23:53:06 <elliott> oklopol: it would take O(infinity) time :D which is the same as O(0)
23:53:13 <elliott> oklopol: then C will help for the pure number-crunching speed
23:53:21 <elliott> oklopol: do blocks have any more state than what type of block they are?
23:53:46 <oklopol> elliott: c# is much higher-level, but i guess if i dl'd nice data structures for c someone competent has made, it would just have uglier syntax.
23:55:03 <oklopol> messages don't travel infinitely far
23:55:34 <elliott> 23:52 elliott: oklopol: do blocks have any more state than what type of block they are?
23:55:51 <oklopol> elliott: blocks can be programmed arbitrarily, and different blocks have different "components" that determine what they can actually physically do
23:56:10 <oklopol> arbitrarily, although depends on block how much programming it allows, most blocks are pretty stupid
23:56:26 <elliott> oklopol: so you can create a new block the behaves pretty much exactly how you like by programming?
23:57:02 <oklopol> as i said, most blocks will not be all that useful
23:57:16 <elliott> oklopol: right, the issue there is that your world update gets a whole lot slower
23:57:16 <zzo38> Phantom__Hoover: Why do you think they are nobody problems?
23:57:25 <oklopol> say they have an empty list of components
23:57:36 <elliott> oklopol: it's turned from basically an advanced, big cellular automaton with wider effects into running millions of programs per frame :D
23:57:46 <oklopol> elliott: it's just optimized away unless you start madly programming blocks.
23:58:01 <elliott> oklopol: ok, so there are basically "predefined blocks", and "programmed blocks"?
23:58:05 <elliott> where the former are optimisations of the latter
23:58:35 <oklopol> yes. conceptual purity in an impure way.
23:58:48 <oklopol> because true purity is a bit out of reach
23:58:57 <elliott> oklopol: how many predefined blocks, 256, 16 thousand, or way more?
23:59:41 <oklopol> blocks stop executing far enough from the player, probably. the pure reason being then you need to keep your player block near