00:00:59 <cheater99> you could totally be a good subordinate neural network for some things
00:01:16 <cheater99> i should stuff your brain in a jar when you don't need it anymore
00:01:36 <elliott> i doubt that you will be in much of a position to do that at that time
00:02:07 <elliott> well i assume you mean when i die.
00:02:13 <elliott> and i *expect* you'll die before me
00:02:30 <cheater99> i mean, let's say you suddenly find yourself with vital organs failing surprisingly, as if someone were blasting surgically applied rays of microwaves into your body
00:02:40 <elliott> that would be quite unfortunate, yes
00:02:50 <elliott> i rather think my brain would take some damage
00:02:58 <cheater99> let's say it's a cabal of killer ninja-robot-rabbits
00:03:40 <elliott> i rather meant from the trauma
00:04:16 <cheater99> well, we'd need to make the decision to jar you quick then
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00:05:57 <cheater99> a project to replace brains with something less volatile than a foie gras could be real fun
00:06:21 <cheater99> even if, say, replicating the function of a neuron would take a supercomputer.
00:07:37 <cheater99> i find someone sitting down and writing GHC unlikely
00:08:08 <elliott> what's that got to do with anything
00:08:19 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:08:20 <elliott> "someone" didn't, tons of people did it over the course of years
00:08:28 <cheater99> well, it's as high on my unlikelihood scale
00:08:28 <elliott> also, that's an argument /for/ technology being able to do things, not for it not being able to
00:08:38 <elliott> ghc isn't _that_ advanced..
00:10:06 <cheater99> still, looking back, in the 70s when most people were just working with perforated tape
00:10:19 <cheater99> what ghc is now seemed like sci-fi
00:10:21 <elliott> i find it incredibly unlikely that replicating the function of a neuron would take a supercomputer
00:10:32 <elliott> and, uh, not really, it's just a compiler ...
00:10:47 <elliott> cheater99: ML came out in the early 70s
00:10:55 <elliott> Haskell isn't much of a leap
00:11:22 <cheater99> but still, the general population was doing that perforated cards stuff
00:11:24 <cheater99> "type inference? what's a type? is that like a collection of holes in a von neumann machine?"
00:11:59 <cheater99> and what i'm saying is i guess we're to neuroscience what perforated card users were to computer science back then
00:12:02 <Sgeo> Does SML not have the +. nonsense of OCaml?
00:12:31 <cheater99> the worst thing about haskell for me is the indentation nonsense
00:13:09 <Sgeo> The thing that functions or whatever can't operate, say, on both ints and floats
00:13:55 <copumpkin> you can write haskell with brackets and semicolons if you want to
00:14:08 <copumpkin> most people just prefer to reduce visual clutter
00:14:41 <cheater99> i'm talking indentation not braces
00:14:55 <cheater99> python doesn't have braces or semicolons but it has a nice indent style
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00:15:13 <copumpkin> with braces and semicolons, you can indent as you choose
00:15:37 <copumpkin> you can also indent as you choose with regular haskell and no braces and semicolons
00:15:44 <copumpkin> I don't really understand what you mean
00:15:51 <cheater99> it's like i'm saying "i don't like having diarrhea" and you say "cut off your arm instead"
00:15:51 <copumpkin> it's strictly more flexible than python's rules
00:16:20 <cheater99> i somehow find that's not really the case
00:16:30 <cheater99> also i see a lot of mutilated code
00:16:42 <cheater99> no, but there were some problems i have indeed run into
00:17:02 <cheater99> when i said i can't give examples i really meant it :p
00:17:14 <copumpkin> it sucks, but I can't remember why
00:17:22 <elliott> copumpkin: cheater99 is a troll, ignore him :)
00:17:32 <cheater99> coppro: elliott is a troll, just ignore him :)
00:17:41 <elliott> coppro is already ignoring me
00:18:51 <cheater99> copumpkin: next time i run into something i'll let you know (if i can remember at all that you were being all gung-ho about it)
00:18:53 <elliott> this channel is such a happy family
00:19:01 <elliott> erm there was someone being gung-ho here but it wasn't copumpkin
00:19:22 <cheater99> we're ending up like the eastenders.
00:19:33 <cheater99> constant haggle just to make do :D
00:19:39 <elliott> ...nobody should ever analogise wi- i give up i'm just going to go back to logreading
00:19:43 <elliott> NOBODY EVER ARGUES IN MY PEACEFUL LOGS
00:19:56 <elliott> read oklopol talk about topology
00:19:59 <copumpkin> cheater99: well, let me just put it this way: python requires you to in/outdent by a specific amount each time. Haskell just looks for things that are indented the same depth and considers those to be at the same level. So you can indent haskell like python and have it behave as you'd expect
00:20:25 <cheater99> elliott: where is he talking about topology?
00:20:28 <copumpkin> however, most code in haskell doesn't get very deeply indented
00:20:44 <cheater99> elliott: give me something to search buffer for
00:20:48 <elliott> i should try writing a literate program in haskell sometime, it'd be fun
00:20:51 <elliott> cheater99: grep oklopol 10*
00:21:15 <cheater99> i only have this xchat buffer, i can search for exact strings
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00:21:26 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:21:45 <cheater99> i don't have logs, what are logs, this is some sort of high-fly technology you're talking about. what's magnetic storage?
00:21:49 <elliott> cheater99: um oklopol hasn't talked about topology today
00:21:57 <elliott> hg clone http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ esotericlogs
00:22:25 <elliott> it's just an easy way to get incremental updates to http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ ...
00:22:31 <elliott> it's not like you're going to be committing typofixes
00:22:37 <elliott> just hg pull; hg update every few days
00:22:41 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
00:23:03 <elliott> Gregor put it in the topic under the assumption that people wouldn't rape his bandwidth
00:23:38 <elliott> 21:09:04 <oklofok> actually
00:23:38 <elliott> 21:09:06 <oklofok> you're right
00:23:38 <elliott> 21:09:13 <oklofok> for this to be a great tv show
00:23:39 <elliott> 21:09:22 <oklofok> we need like a really stupid fbi guy
00:23:41 <cheater99> but pulling is very low-bandwidth, isn't it?
00:23:41 <elliott> 21:09:27 <oklofok> who asks stupid questions
00:23:43 <elliott> 21:09:46 <oklofok> "so you're saying a locally connected spaces is like a rabbit that sticks its head into a bush when it gets scared?"
00:23:45 <elliott> oklopol: who let you be so awesome
00:23:50 <elliott> cheater99: it's also non-zero-bandwidth
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00:25:20 <elliott> 21:18:19 <oklofok> that's true for all partitions gotten this way?
00:25:20 <elliott> 21:18:33 <oklofok> is that obvious again...
00:25:22 <elliott> 21:19:03 <oklofok> well of course it is
00:25:24 <elliott> 21:19:06 <oklofok> by definition of touch
00:25:28 <elliott> 21:19:42 <oklofok> what's the definition of touch?
00:25:31 <Gregor> cheater99: Pulling is relatively low bandwidth, but it's a big enough archive that if a ton of people downloaded it, it would add up *shrugs*
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00:25:42 <elliott> i'm gonna pull it every second
00:26:10 <cheater99> Gregor: i'm just gonna do what elliott suggests, you can blame him by proxy
00:26:27 <elliott> cheater99: btw it only updates every day
00:26:30 <cheater99> i think you'd need RTLinux for picoseconds
00:26:59 <cheater99> you know, tcp windowing gets interesting once you get to near-light speeds
00:27:28 <cheater99> if your requests can go out faster than they can traverse the cable
00:27:59 <elliott> just replace all hlt instructions in the kernel with hg pull code
00:28:01 <cheater99> i guess that's been done with TCP/CP though
00:28:01 <Vorpal> cheater99, does that ever happen though?
00:28:17 <elliott> i love having two views of a buffer open at once, helps me forget my screen is tiny
00:28:50 <cheater99> i thought you'd know what TCP over Carrier Pidgeon was
00:29:18 <elliott> i thought you meant pigeons travelled at near light speed there
00:29:20 <cheater99> yeah, i just made it up to sound mysterious
00:29:37 <Vorpal> cheater99, they should
00:29:55 <cheater99> ziggy, what probabilities are we looking at right now??
00:30:03 <Vorpal> elliott, yes they do but um they are also turned into novergian blues
00:30:18 <Vorpal> (that is plural of blue, not the word "blues")
00:30:43 <elliott> 21:40:00 <oklofok> how are they not linear
00:30:43 <elliott> 21:40:28 <oklofok> i know too little about this stuff
00:30:48 <elliott> 21:40:40 <oklofok> EVERYTHING
00:31:04 <Vorpal> elliott, did he say those last lines?
00:31:29 <cheater99> you'll never know. the history is blurry at that point
00:31:36 <cheater99> the path of time has been changed forever
00:31:39 <Vorpal> cheater99, I could grep logs
00:31:44 <elliott> yeah nobody can check the logs
00:31:50 <elliott> GUESS GREGOR DIDN'T THINK OF THAT EH
00:31:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I have my local clog ones :P
00:32:01 <elliott> omg what if he's secretly censoring things in the weekly checkouts
00:32:20 <cheater99> elliott: if we implemented brain as a quantum computer, could this mean it would be agnostic of time?
00:32:32 <cheater99> because of quantum tangling across time
00:32:54 <Vorpal> you mean entanglement?
00:33:28 <Vorpal> cheater99, tangling sounds so everyday
00:33:47 <Gregor> elliott: Daily, and I censor them directly out of your mind, first.
00:33:52 <cheater99> entanglement sounds so popular science
00:34:02 <elliott> Gregor: oh that's what that pleasingly calm and relaxing sensation is
00:34:09 <Vorpal> cheater99, or actual real science
00:34:39 <cheater99> let's only talk about ufos and lsd-philosophy!
00:35:06 <cheater99> i heard someone say 2012 will not even happen in 2012
00:35:15 <Gregor> IDEA FOR WORST MOVIE EVER: A docudrama/romantic comedy about a quantum scientist and his ENTANGLEMENT with some fru-fru hippy girl that doesn't believe in science.
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00:35:59 <cheater99> what was that movie about the great scientist and his son
00:36:00 <Vorpal> 1991260 | 2010-12-14 06:40:40 | oklofok | | | 0 | EVERYTHING
00:36:13 <cheater99> the guy builds starships and his son goes to south africa and builds canoes
00:36:32 <elliott> Gregor: ALSO CANDIDATE FOR: Strangest sex scenes in a movie.
00:36:42 <elliott> Gregor: I'm assuming you mean: literal entanglement.
00:36:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I read it as stranglet sex scenes
00:36:52 <elliott> As in, his body is literally quantumly entangled with hers. Permanently. Somehow.
00:36:59 <elliott> Please tell me this is the case.
00:37:00 <Gregor> elliott: Literal QUANTUM entanglement, that leads to romantic entanglement!
00:37:10 <Gregor> "Our spin, it's the same!"
00:37:23 <elliott> Gregor: "You're...inside me..." "THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!"
00:37:33 <elliott> Gregor: "It's not rape if physics dictates!"
00:37:35 <cheater99> you spin me right round baby right round
00:37:48 <elliott> Gregor: AM I: (A) BEST PERSON (B) HORRIBLE PERSON (NOT B)?
00:38:00 <cheater99> like a [something something] right round round round
00:38:14 <Gregor> elliott: All of the above? :P
00:38:16 <cheater99> you spin me right round baby right round, like a quantum entangled device right round round round
00:38:22 <elliott> Gregor: (C) ALL OF THE BELOW
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00:39:33 <elliott> Apparently Dock stopped being the Minecraft artist because:
00:39:39 <elliott> "I kept on running into technical problems with the export process, and Markus wasn’t used to having to wait for art assets."
00:40:07 <cheater99> ./08.08.22:14:18:36 <oklopol> Haskell is compiled from .hs-files which means HOMO SEXUAL this could be funny.
00:40:45 <Ilari> Hah... Somebody's explanation of Gulf War Syndrome: It was the diet sodas troops drank...
00:41:07 <elliott> 00:39:12 <oklopol> has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck?
00:41:35 <cheater99> isn't brainfuck basically a quicksort algorithm
00:41:43 <elliott> 06.12.20:16:54:40 <oklopol> a.split("") is illegal? how to parse a string to a list of letters? :DD then i might be able to carry on :)
00:41:43 <cheater99> it sorts out people who are bored enough to learn it
00:41:46 <elliott> 06.12.20:16:56:20 <oklopol> haha i can't do an assignment in a lambda? :D or is there a way?
00:41:54 <elliott> oklopol: you were a bad person
00:42:33 <elliott> 06.12.26:12:59:06 <oklopol> i love brainfuck, yeah, you gotta
00:42:56 <Sgeo> A string already is a list of characters
00:43:29 <Sgeo> It's iterable though, so usable in most such contexts
00:43:35 <Sgeo> And list(somestring) should work
00:43:49 <Vorpal> you can't modify a string in place in python iirc
00:44:14 <cheater99> TypeError: 'str' object does not support item assignment
00:44:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, as usual I'm right :P
00:44:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it needs to be hashable or something iirc
00:45:19 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:45:39 <cheater00> variables in python are immutable.
00:45:45 <cheater00> um, i've done a very disturbing discovery
00:46:07 <cheater00> :||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
00:46:12 <elliott> what the fuck is that <> shit for
00:46:47 <elliott> it requires an extra escape
00:46:56 <elliott> ofc why you aren't just 'quoting' it is another mystery
00:47:04 <elliott> and requires one less escape the way cheater00 did it
00:47:30 <quintopia> but he is an idiot for not quoting
00:47:37 <cheater00> \b is not the same in that it is not directional.
00:47:43 <quintopia> and picking on idiots is politically incorrect
00:48:04 <elliott> because wasting time figuring out how to escape in both the shell and regexps is a waste of brain?
00:48:17 <elliott> "oh i need to escape this shell metachar, \, oh i need to escape this regexp metachar, \\, oh but it's a shell metachar too, \\\"
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00:49:58 <cheater00> $ grep -ir \\\<scheme\\\> . | wc -l
00:50:07 <elliott> http://images.apple.com/v20110110174859/startpage/images/store_ipodtouch_20100927.png look at that personal engraving
00:50:19 <cheater00> we should have like a bar chart for each language mentioned on 99bottles and in the wiki
00:50:21 <elliott> apple think everyone is a douchebag
00:50:29 <elliott> cheater00: botte will have statistics.
00:51:03 <cheater00> does botte exist in [t=now, t=now+1year] ?
00:51:23 <elliott> now+1 year, most likely yes
00:51:34 <elliott> i still need to figure how to address some infinity lines quickly though
00:52:03 <elliott> I need basically arbitrary (non-backtracking) regexp search on that.
00:52:14 <elliott> that doesn't solve the problem of _how_ to index it.
00:52:24 <elliott> I can use an efficient regexp lib like Russ Cox's RE2 to grep ... but I don't know if it will be efficient.
00:52:26 <cheater00> just grep | wc -l every language name
00:52:35 <elliott> um botte has far more advanced needs than just that
00:53:05 <elliott> if i didn't scope creep, it'd be 32583495 bots
00:53:13 <elliott> it's not something i've just made up now anyway...
00:53:19 <elliott> $ time grep 'hello' big >/dev/null
00:53:38 <cheater00> is it something you've made up five minutes ago?
00:53:59 <elliott> heh grep -i is significantly slower i think
00:54:06 <elliott> $ time (grep -i clue big | wc -l)
00:54:18 <elliott> RE2 powers Google Code Search
00:54:22 <elliott> probably faster than grep i'd wager
00:54:29 <cheater00> hence you always have a collation-normalize copy
00:55:01 <cheater00> so that EVERYONE IS SHOUTING LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME
00:55:04 <elliott> and remove punctuation, yes, maybe
00:55:24 <elliott> well to make most searches more efficient
00:55:34 <elliott> maybe have heuristics to keep it in urls and channel names and stuff
00:55:42 <elliott> but "foo," "foo:" "foo." "foo!" "foo?" etc.
00:55:49 <elliott> the plan is basically to build the whole botte storage engine on something similar to datalog
00:56:04 <cheater00> well when you're searching you just use the simple copy for finding the right file/line
00:56:11 <cheater00> then you grep those lines with the usual files again
00:56:42 <elliott> i'll probably just filter out [a-zA-Z0-9]
00:56:54 <elliott> useful for e.g. "brainfuck" vs "brain fuck"
00:57:08 <elliott> the channel would be silent :P
00:57:24 <cheater00> have everyone pre-process on their own
00:57:30 <cheater00> i.e. before they send to the channel..
00:57:38 <cheater00> you could have mutliple copies too
00:57:58 <elliott> when i say prolog-esque db, i also want to stuff s-expressions in there somehow
00:58:03 <elliott> just because it's, you know, advanced technology
00:58:24 <elliott> now the issue is that no _language_ can live up to such an amazing database system...
00:58:25 <cheater00> one normal copy, one with strtoupper, then with spaces normalized, then with common words removed, then with punctuation removed, then with more punctuation removed, then with spaces removed
00:58:38 <cheater00> each level has everything the previous had
00:59:32 <cheater00> elliott: have you played secret maryo?
01:01:23 <elliott> >>> re.sub(r'[^a-z0-9]', '', 'Hello, world! http://google.com/ is the nemesis 20 times over. :P'.lower())
01:01:23 <elliott> 'helloworldhttpgooglecomisthenemesis20timesoverp'
01:01:27 <elliott> might wanna filter out smilies first
01:01:35 <elliott> actually spaces could be worth keeping :)
01:01:48 <elliott> other things botte will let you do: play the Name Game
01:04:00 <elliott> i wonder if anyone's already invented my latex-but-for-semantic-document-layout-rather-than-print-layout-making
01:04:05 <elliott> like texinfo, except less sucky
01:04:34 <cheater00> elliott: hence i say filter out common words
01:04:54 <elliott> cheater00: that's getting too close to a proper indexer for my liking, i'd rather build that kind of stuff on _top_ of a powerful thing
01:05:00 <elliott> in fact, i'm not even sure i want to filter punctuation
01:05:05 <elliott> maybe i'll just lowercase it all
01:05:13 <elliott> i can build another index store for searching on top of that
01:05:38 <elliott> what if you want to search for code snippets
01:05:47 <elliott> this is to be used by everything, i can build another stripped index on top
01:05:49 <cheater00> then you enter punctuation into your query
01:06:01 <elliott> i mean, the current combined log is only 124 and a half megabytes
01:06:05 <cheater00> and then it knows, yo, i gotta use me the punctuation-enabled database, yo
01:06:31 <elliott> i could fit 196.6 copies of the log onto a $20 prgmr vps
01:06:36 <elliott> (assuming the disk is otherwise completely empty)
01:06:47 <elliott> and that's including its inefficient textual storage format
01:06:52 <elliott> and inclusion of irrelevant things like joins and parts
01:06:55 <elliott> so really i'm not too worried
01:07:16 <Gregor> elliott: Have fun with no OS :P
01:07:23 <cheater00> what we really need is a neuron simulation that will just learn how to tell us what logs to read
01:07:33 <elliott> Gregor: it was just figurewank :P
01:07:37 <elliott> cheater00: just read them all
01:07:57 <cheater00> Gregor: OS is overrated, just load a simple telnet server into RAM from NetBIOS
01:08:11 <elliott> on a prgmr.com xen, SUUUUURE
01:08:28 <cheater00> elliott: i was saying that knowingly.
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01:12:44 <Sgeo> Literate Hasell?
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01:13:14 <elliott> oh great... i borked my texlive install
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01:14:58 <elliott> what a coincidence! copumpkin coming in just as i do haskell!
01:15:04 <elliott> (note: you will always be the #haskeller. always)
01:16:48 <copumpkin> man, I've only been using haskell for a couple of years and already I'm known for it!
01:17:14 <elliott> copumpkin: you might consider that instead, the problem is that you haven't done _anything_ more interesting than use haskell :D
01:17:34 <elliott> copumpkin: i'm just kidding!
01:17:53 <elliott> setup: /usr/local/texlive/2010basic/texmf-local/tex/latex/polytable:
01:18:24 <Sgeo> sudo apt-install elliott
01:18:35 <Sgeo> sudo apt-get install elliott
01:18:48 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
01:18:54 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:18:59 <Sgeo> What's wrong with apt-get?
01:19:11 <Sgeo> Also, WTF key combination did I press thaat did that?
01:19:13 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
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01:19:19 <Sgeo> Fuck you, Ctrl-W
01:20:34 <elliott> Sgeo: the official package manager of the Debian operating system is aptitude
01:20:43 <elliott> so hey copumpkin MISTER HASKELL how do i use lhs2tex, i want step by step instructions
01:21:15 <cheater00> elliott: everything you find out, relay it to me, let me just turn on my Ono-Sendai
01:21:16 <elliott> oh... lhs2tex looks like it italicises all names by default, not just variable bindings
01:21:20 <elliott> but top-level definitions and library functions too
01:21:23 <elliott> but i'm sure i can customise that
01:21:53 <cheater00> you don't know the Ono Sendai Cyberspace 7?
01:22:07 <elliott> i'm trying to get lhs to work
01:22:25 <elliott> ! LaTeX Error: File `stmaryrd.sty' not found.
01:22:42 <elliott> "% The module for importing the St Mary's Road symbol font."
01:22:44 <elliott> why are you importing that.
01:23:11 <elliott> i don't understand how anyone can use an os without a package manager
01:23:19 <cheater00> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
01:23:21 <elliott> it's like using a programming language without names
01:23:25 <cheater00> same thing i've been asking myself
01:23:36 <cheater00> let's install netbsd on a toaster :(
01:23:48 <elliott> netbsd's package manager isn't so hot either :)
01:23:59 <cheater00> yea but it's an esoteric os project
01:24:41 <cheater00> variable: but until 5 people do it it's still esoteric
01:25:08 <cheater00> variable: that's no special feat. any computer with a pentium 4 can toast bread
01:25:19 <elliott> cheater00: macports is bad
01:25:27 <elliott> homebrew is slightly better but run by seeming idiots and with a lack of packages
01:25:36 <elliott> saying it as someone who used it for like two years
01:25:43 <elliott> um well rpm anything i can't really comment on.
01:26:10 <variable> rpm is bad - not as bad as some others
01:26:26 <cheater00> http://www.embeddedarm.com/software/arm-netbsd-toaster.php
01:26:44 <cheater00> you gotta find a toaster that is produced in mass
01:26:56 <cheater00> that without modifications (large ones) can accept a kernel OS
01:27:12 <elliott> i think what i'm going to do is write a bunch of programs that convert $stupid_language_specific_package_manager packages into debian packages
01:27:22 <cheater00> i dunno, aren't there microcontrollers in some toasters?
01:27:32 <elliott> so I can do "sudo apt-cabal install some-hackage-package"
01:27:39 <elliott> and it installs it as haskell-cabal-some-hackage-package
01:27:51 <cheater00> elliott: ya, this whole package thing is pissing me off
01:28:09 <elliott> cheater00: i think it's because, in these little isolated bubbles, they're convinced that they can do better than everyone else
01:28:23 <elliott> cheater00: it sorta started with CPAN, which wasn't _too_ horrible since it wasn't identical to apt — ok it was 500000x worse
01:28:25 <cheater00> people should finally agree on the One True Package Distribution System: wget from cdrom.com
01:28:28 <elliott> but you couldn't tell it was trying to be apt
01:28:55 <elliott> and then it just so happened that it was easy to write a program that automatically installed hackage packages...
01:29:08 <elliott> i don't think anyone uses pear
01:29:13 <elliott> php devs don't really understand the concept of a library package
01:29:26 <elliott> pear always confused me, like,
01:29:30 <elliott> there were all these functions
01:29:41 <elliott> and how come i can't use these functions it just gives me an error
01:29:42 <cheater00> have you ever used this php based make "replacement"
01:29:50 <cheater00> it's like replacing broken bones with frozen doodies
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01:30:13 <elliott> make is so bad, but if there's one thing worse than make, it's make replacements
01:30:24 <elliott> lol, phing is based on ant
01:30:27 <elliott> always a good design decision
01:30:37 <cheater00> but if there's one thing worse than ant, it's ant replacements
01:30:50 <elliott> ant is great, they decided to make a build system
01:30:53 <elliott> so they reimplemented shell scripts
01:30:55 <elliott> except without any features
01:31:05 <elliott> it doesn't even have dependency handling, or the ability to avoid rebuilding everything
01:31:12 <elliott> you could rewrite any ant file as a 10x shorter *dos batch file*
01:31:23 <elliott> well yeah. but it doesn't work properly
01:31:27 <elliott> and everyone just has one compile target
01:31:29 <elliott> which makes one call to java
01:31:54 <elliott> wanna know the solution to that?
01:32:05 <variable> cheater00, ant is still the suckiest build system I've seen
01:32:28 <elliott> variable: i'm starting to come to a glowing appreciation of autohell after using scons
01:32:46 <Sgeo> "Life's Been a Blast"
01:32:51 <elliott> with scons it's like they made a build system, but then heard about this "declarative" stuff
01:32:55 <elliott> and then hacked up something in five minutes
01:32:57 <Sgeo> Appropriate title for a book about a victim of a bombing?
01:32:58 <elliott> and decided to release it lik ethat
01:33:32 <variable> elliott, I've never used scons
01:33:37 <cheater00> elliott: i want a programming language that can be localized
01:33:47 <elliott> how come i'm only getting 800 KiB/s
01:33:47 <cheater00> elliott: let's port python to en_GB
01:33:54 <variable> cheater00, there exist such languages/libraries
01:33:56 <elliott> to download an automatic software installer
01:34:02 <elliott> that will let me typeset my useless programs
01:34:20 <elliott> cheater00: better, let's write an stdlib that uses en-GB spellings
01:34:32 <elliott> i have to name my own functions with "o" and "ize"
01:34:34 <Sgeo> http://www.emilylyons.com/webs/emily/
01:34:36 <elliott> otherwise they're inconsistent with api functions
01:34:43 <elliott> maybe instead of case-insensitive languages
01:34:54 <elliott> dialect-insensitive languages
01:34:57 <elliott> ou and o are exactly the same
01:35:22 <elliott> no, yours involved manual translation
01:35:29 <elliott> mine would also remove 'eh' from every variable name for the canucks
01:35:42 <cheater00> i said let's port, i never said manually
01:36:00 <cheater00> when i say let's execute this program, i'm not manually moving electrons across semiconductor gaps
01:36:56 <elliott> oh man i should so be sleeping guess what i'm not doing THAT'S RIGHT sleeping
01:37:20 <cheater00> elliott: let's replace brains with computers
01:37:31 <elliott> ITT: cheater00 discovers transhumanism
01:37:50 <cheater00> (wait did you call me a cross-dresser)
01:38:19 <cheater00> 2. find out how brains work even more
01:38:26 <cheater00> 3. find out how to replace parts of it
01:38:30 <elliott> this trackpad is really nice
01:38:38 <cheater00> 5. figure out a unit testing suite
01:38:58 <elliott> cheater00: http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm
01:39:15 <cheater00> 7. execute unit tests and keep fixing stuff
01:40:20 <cheater00> well there's this teleportation death paradigm
01:40:30 <elliott> cheater00: see http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm
01:40:30 <cheater00> like, the moment you are teleported away, you die
01:40:38 <elliott> but see http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm
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01:40:45 <elliott> that will put anyone's fears to rest
01:40:49 <cheater00> well what i'm saying is, there's a "fix" to that
01:40:53 <elliott> except it won't because they'll just find another excuse ofc
01:40:58 <elliott> cheater00: um yes and it's in http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm for instance :)
01:40:58 <cheater00> you can replace brain neuron by neuron
01:41:02 <elliott> cheater00: yes that's exactly what he says
01:41:08 <elliott> stfu and read it, dan's data must always be read
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01:41:18 <elliott> or more like you had the obvious idea
01:41:28 <cheater00> i would read immediately except i need to spend a penny
01:41:29 <elliott> it's total bullshit that teleportation is death though
01:41:53 <elliott> "Eclipse Orion Project Announced - Browser Based Eclipse"
01:42:02 <elliott> The Eclipse project, always advancing frontiers in IDE slowness.
01:42:07 <cheater00> you've never been to a public toilet have you?
01:42:24 <elliott> "We're afraid the current Java/SWT-based system just outgrew us," a spokesperson for the Eclipse Foundation said.
01:42:42 <elliott> "With a Java backend, and a JavaScript frontend, we're hoping we can achieve slowdowns of some 2-4x."
01:42:46 <elliott> http://dev.eclipse.org/blogs/mike/2011/01/11/introducing-orion/
01:42:50 <cheater00> in fact, it might make eclipse less slow, because chrome
01:42:51 <elliott> all quotes absolutely real
01:42:57 <elliott> cheater00: who cares, it's still eclipse
01:43:11 <elliott> fuck putting everything into the browser
01:43:13 <cheater00> if i wanted an ide i'd just use bash
01:43:37 <elliott> i dunno whether you're being sarcastic or not but yeah pretty much
01:43:41 <elliott> i have an extremely hostile relationship with my browser
01:43:55 <cheater00> and opera is like nice, nice, and then at some point it goes from being ok to TOTALLY BOMBING OUT
01:44:05 <elliott> it's a crappy browser, its two features are
01:44:20 <elliott> it has terrible support for standards and ... everything
01:44:24 <elliott> way more than any other browsers
01:44:38 <cheater00> actually opera was usually on the forefront of standards
01:44:47 <elliott> cheater00: perhaps in the 90s
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01:44:57 <cheater00> except it's not fairyfox so it doesn't get css optimized for it
01:44:58 <elliott> cheater00: that perception is ever-present but illusory nowadays
01:45:18 <elliott> opera fanbois are *very* ... touchy about it, and very promoting
01:45:25 <cheater00> i desperately need to continue reading cryptonomicon
01:45:28 <elliott> i have a feeling opera have built up this standards reputation by hiring a bunch of standards people
01:45:32 <elliott> but really shit breaks in opera all the time
01:45:52 <elliott> um. do you mean that you need to continue reading cryptonomicon
01:46:06 <elliott> CryptoNomiCon is a conference for crypto freaks who play nomic
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01:56:12 <Gregor> Unlike CryptoNomIcon, which is a picture of a super-dog eating.
01:56:53 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: I hate you.
01:57:23 <elliott> Gregor: Especially since it's Kryptwhy do I know this.
01:57:43 <Gregor> lawl, I legitimately didn't know it was spelled that way :P
01:57:52 <Gregor> But did know it was "Crypto"
01:58:24 <elliott> CryPtonoMicon is obviously a guy called Ptono Micon, who's crying.
01:59:14 <elliott> installin' mactex... then bed
02:01:09 * Sgeo likes the idea of "social coding"
02:01:46 <elliott> that sounds like the worst of ideas
02:02:10 <Sgeo> elliott, I think it's GitHub's tagline
02:02:44 <elliott> lhs2tex doesn't work with memoir
02:02:45 <elliott> ! Class memoir Error: Font command \tt is not supported.
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02:08:21 <Sgeo> Am I hallucinating that tagline?
02:09:42 <elliott> it's on github.com's front page
02:09:47 <elliott> eh i'll fix all this lhs2tex stuff tomorrow
02:09:57 <Sgeo> I'm staring at it right now, and don't see it
02:10:03 <Sgeo> I don't see the word social anywhere
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02:11:25 <Sgeo> And I'm not logged on
02:11:29 <Sgeo> But how did I miss that?
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02:34:34 <pikhq_> Sony suing Geohotz and Team fail0verflow in US courts.
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02:34:50 <zzo38> Do you know anything about process colors and spot colors?
02:34:55 <pikhq_> US courts have no jurisdiction over anyone but Geohotz; wonder how that's going to work.
02:34:58 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
02:35:26 <pikhq> Actually, I wonder how they're even going to serve papers.
02:36:44 <pikhq> Oh, they also have jurisdiction over bushing; he's in CA.
02:37:55 <pikhq> comex: Say: a) did you have any involvement in fail0verflow that you are willing to admit to b) are you in the US?
02:38:40 <copumpkin> they don't know fail0verflow membership and it's worth not divulging it at this point
02:39:23 <pikhq> copumpkin: There's a reason I specified "that you are willing to admit to".
02:39:57 <pikhq> As there are quite a few jurisdictions where admitting to that is probably a bad idea.
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02:42:13 <totem> what channel here?
02:42:24 <zzo38> totem: Esoteric computer programming.
02:42:36 <zzo38> (But we discuss a lot of other things too)
02:43:45 <Sgeo> A programming language is [in loose terms] a language that computers can understand. An esoteric programming language is a language that's not designed for practical utility, but for other reasons, such as being painful to use, or interesting in some theoretical sense, etc.
02:43:53 <totem> zzo38, what about sex and malware?
02:44:08 <Sgeo> totem, this channel is off-topic 99% of the time
02:44:21 <zzo38> totem: Do you have questions about sex and malware? Maybe someone can answer them, I don't know.
02:45:15 <Sgeo> Sexual jokes probably occur more frequently than discussion about malware
02:45:19 <totem> wait, i'm reading the link of topic
02:46:24 <zzo38> totem: Yes the wiki has a lot of things about esoteric programming languages. Also the logs has previous discussions in this channel (you are not required to follow the logs, but you can if you want to).
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02:48:35 <pikhq> SCEA is moving to put an immediate halt to the distribution of these "circumvention devices".
02:48:40 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you Wanda?
02:48:50 <Sgeo> Wanda Firebaugh
02:48:58 <pikhq> Someone's about to taste the wrath of the Streisand effect.
02:49:02 <zzo38> pikhq: What circumvention devices, to be specific? And what is SCEA?
02:49:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Sony Computer Entertainment of America.
02:49:29 <Sgeo> I did a Wanda Firebaugh laugh as my FB status when I finally got those assignments done
02:49:41 <pikhq> zzo38: And the circumvention devices are... Not very well specified.
02:49:48 <Sgeo> um... I think I may have just spoiled something
02:49:52 <pikhq> Presumably the private keys that Sony handed to everybody.
02:50:40 <zzo38> If you have the private key can you adjust the boot BIOS?
02:50:57 <pikhq> You can *replace* it.
02:51:03 <copumpkin> the circumvention "device" is the instructions and software
02:51:36 <pikhq> copumpkin: The instructions are well-known details about ECDSA, and the software is an ECDSA signer.
02:52:27 <zzo38> Everyone should replace it with one that does not allow the update service to change the boot BIOS system and instead switches to a secondary level BIOS which is the one which will be updated by Sony.
02:52:44 <pikhq> And arguably the private keys are actually being distributed *by Sony*.
02:53:36 <copumpkin> pikhq: yes, but the legalese doesn't reveal that
02:53:53 <copumpkin> they need to put it in terms that make it sound dangerous and like it can be stopped
02:53:56 <zzo38> And what Sony should do is, make a private key for each individual unit which is written somewhere on the unit. If they do that, whoever in Sony that distributed the universal private key will stop, because that will adjust the Conspiracy level to make them want to stop.
02:54:17 <copumpkin> since the whole point of that is to take geohot's (and the rest of f0f's, ideally) stuff to "stop distribution"
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02:54:26 <pikhq> zzo38: There's also the console private key; the hard drive is encrypted with it.
02:55:03 <Sgeo> Isn't the HD encryption useless or something?
02:55:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: If you get around the signing, *all* the encryption is useless.
02:56:05 <pikhq> You ask the decryption SPU to decrypt stuff for you *and it does*.
02:56:30 <pikhq> As soon as you are executing code on the PS3, you're done.
02:56:38 <pikhq> Sorry. Code from GameOS.
02:56:54 <pikhq> If it wasn't this, then even a simple buffer overflow in a game would really fuck shit up.
02:57:07 <zzo38> pikhq: They should write the console private key on the case, restore the 4 USB ports (instead of having only 2 USB ports), and make it so the console private key can be used anywhere that the universal one can be used and vice versa. And then whichever employee published it, might decide to stop distributing the universal key.
02:57:26 <Sgeo> No employee published it
02:57:30 <pikhq> zzo38: I don't think you understand how the private key got leaked.
02:57:33 <Sgeo> It was a function of the way they were signing stuff
02:57:40 <zzo38> pikhq: You are right I do not understand.
02:57:44 <Sgeo> They signed stuff such that if you got two signed items, you could learn the key
02:58:08 <pikhq> zzo38: ECDSA requires a random number to be used in generating signatures. If you don't do this, then it's trivial to obtain the key used.
02:58:23 <pikhq> zzo38: And Sony used a constant instead of a random number.
02:58:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: Someone made it like that deliberately because they wanted users to have the key, but without telling the other people who work in Sony.
02:58:46 <pikhq> So. If you have two signed things from Sony, you can extract the key.
02:59:07 <Sgeo> How do you go about determining that it was a constant? Do the math as though it was, do it for several signed items, and see if the resulting key is consistent?
02:59:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: The first half of the signature will be constant, as that part is a function of the key, the key length, and the random number.
03:01:05 <pikhq> That part is also believed to be nearly impossible to reverse. However, the remaining half is some basic modular arithmetic done on the key, the random number, and the hash of the message.
03:01:22 <zzo38> Did one of the employees do that deliberately?
03:01:28 <pikhq> zzo38: We do not know.
03:01:41 <pikhq> All we know is that *each and every PS3 executable* is signed like this.
03:01:48 <zzo38> If not, they could correct it on PlayStation 4.
03:02:50 <zzo38> But if so, then my scheme might correct it.
03:03:16 <zzo38> So in addition to changing it to use random numbers instead of constants, make guesses as to whether or not it is deliberate.
03:04:06 <pikhq> The only *possible* scheme for Sony to fix this is to add a new layer of signing to new PS3 executables, add a whitelist for all "legitimate" old PS3 executables, and ship this out in a new firmware update.
03:04:22 <pikhq> And *all* this does is make it so you need to use a modchip instead of a pure software hack.
03:04:46 <zzo38> pikhq: So, everyone should upgrade the BIOS to their own version before Sony can do that.
03:05:11 <Sgeo> When you say executable, what level are you speaking at? The video I watched said that they didn't have the keys for signing games
03:05:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: fail0verflow never bothered to *get* the keys for signing games.
03:05:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: However, *each and every level* in the PS3 chain of trust is vulnerable.
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03:22:48 <Gregor> "A 2009 study published in Boston Review found that nearly 25 percent of non-Jewish Americans blamed Jews for the financial crisis of 2008–2009, with a higher percentage among Democrats than Republicans."
03:26:44 <quintopia> i also blame jews. specific jews. along with specific people of other creeds...
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03:47:08 <pikhq> Sony is also claiming that all of this stuff was done for the sole purpose of "enabling piracy".
03:48:34 <pikhq> And fail0verflow is doing it for the sole purpose of enabling an advertised feature of the hardware.
03:51:29 <pikhq> They are also filing claims under various laws aimed at preventing cracking into other people's computers.
03:51:38 <pikhq> Is... Sony claiming *ownership* of all PS3s?
03:52:32 <pikhq> And finally, they claim that by restraining this action, they can stop piracy on the PS3.
03:52:32 <Sgeo> This reminds me of a webcomic I used to follow
03:53:02 <pikhq> ... Ohhhh holy fuck.
03:53:17 <Sgeo> I don't think Streisand applies when not doing anything would not prevent everyone from knowing about it, which they do anyway
03:53:46 <pikhq> They are also seeking the impoundment of "any and all media in which circumvention devices are stored within the possession, custody, or control of Defendants".
03:54:13 <pikhq> Good thing most of Team fail0verflow is completely outside of jurisdiction.
03:55:10 * pikhq finishes reading the request for temporary restraining order and impoundment.
03:55:11 <Sgeo> Can they be extradited?
03:55:29 <pikhq> Not only no but fuck no.
03:56:05 <pikhq> Oh, it's Sony v. George Hotz, Cantero, Sven Peter, and Does 1 through 100.
03:56:26 <Sgeo> o.O at Does 1 through 100
03:56:36 <pikhq> That is not very rare, though.
03:57:11 <pikhq> Most of team fail0verflow does go by aliases, and it's likely many of them are unknown.
03:57:40 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't have Sgeo so closely associated with my RL name
03:58:20 <pikhq> The request was granted.
03:59:33 <pikhq> Misinterpreted the form for the *suggested* order as being granted; all that there is is a form that a judge could fill out.
03:59:46 <pikhq> Anyways. Finished reading relevant legal documents.
04:00:20 <pikhq> So far, I see two major fail from Sony's lawyers. One, many of the people they are suing are out of jurisdiction. Two, they are suing under claims of the DMCA.
04:00:57 <pikhq> With claims that they did this with the *sole purpose* of enabling illegal copying.
04:01:56 <pikhq> Which they then note in the filing that all defendants have claimed otherwise.
04:02:02 <pikhq> They may have just committed perjury.
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04:05:15 <pikhq> They are also claiming that Geohot committed extortion.
04:05:42 <pikhq> "if you want your next console to be secure, get in touch with me." ← this, namely.
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04:07:23 * Sgeo decides he wants to make a language in which you can write compilers as easily as interpreters
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04:11:39 <pikhq> erk: C0 CE FE 84 C2 27 F7 5B D0 7A 7E B8 46 50 9F 93 B2 38 E7 70 DA CB 9F F4 A3 88 F8 12 48 2B E2 1B
04:11:43 <pikhq> riv: 47 EE 74 54 E4 77 4C C9 B8 96 0C 7B 59 F4 C1 4D
04:11:48 <pikhq> pub: C2 D4 AA F3 19 35 50 19 AF 99 D4 4E 2B 58 CA 29 25 2C 89 12 3D 11 D6 21 8F 40 B1 38 CA B2 9B 71 01 F3 AE B7 2A 97 50 19
04:11:53 <pikhq> R: 80 6E 07 8F A1 52 97 90 CE 1A AE 02 BA DD 6F AA A6 AF 74 17
04:11:58 <pikhq> n: E1 3A 7E BC 3A CC EB 1C B5 6C C8 60 FC AB DB 6A 04 8C 55 E1
04:12:02 <pikhq> K: BA 90 55 91 68 61 B9 77 ED CB ED 92 00 50 92 F6 6C 7A 3D 8D
04:12:07 <pikhq> Da: C5 B2 BF A1 A4 13 DD 16 F2 6D 31 C0 F2 ED 47 20 DC FB 06 70
04:12:18 <pikhq> What a very long and hex-y coughing fit.
04:12:49 <quintopia> those hex numbers are illegal aren't they?
04:13:45 <pikhq> quintopia: You are violating patents thousands of times a day!
04:14:17 * Sgeo is [not actually] tempted to mention pikhq's name
04:14:22 <Sgeo> Note: I'm not an asshole
04:15:17 * pikhq presumes that quintopia *is* a form of Terran life, and thus violates various gene patents constantly
04:15:39 <pikhq> (and yes, it *is* illegal to be alive in the US currently.)
04:16:32 <pikhq> quintopia: Oh, you're a designated representative of a foreign state?
04:16:49 <pikhq> In what capacity, might I ask?
04:16:52 <quintopia> yes. i'm handling negotiations with the arcturans at the moment
04:17:17 <Sgeo> Is my language idea feasible? I mean, if Trusting Trust is feasible, than surely my language is
04:18:12 <Sgeo> Although I'm wondering if the idea is too similar to these VM things
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04:22:18 <Sgeo> Better idea: It should make it decently easy to write your own self-hosting language
04:22:43 <Sgeo> Not sure how that would work, exactly
04:24:33 <pikhq> Sweden suspended mens rea. For men. Pertaining to rape charges.
04:26:03 <pikhq> (mens rea is the legal concept that someone cannot be charged with a crime unless that person had the actual intent to commit said crime.)
04:26:22 <Sgeo> Wait, how would you rape someone without intending to rape someone?
04:27:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: You could be completely unaware that the other party was not in a state to give consent.
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04:30:37 <pikhq> Damned Norwegian, not having fucking crazy people around.
04:32:03 <Sgeo> Ideally, the source for the compiler for my new language should not mention x86 at all.
04:32:08 <Sgeo> Nothing platform-specific
04:32:21 <Sgeo> It should all be Trusting-Trust-ed in
04:34:06 <Sgeo> Although it would make porting it to new platforms a royal bitch
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04:40:37 <zzo38> What DPI does WotC use for cards? I am told they are 133 DPI for process colors and 1200 DPI for text, but whoever told me has never actually seen how they make the cards and was never in WotC ever
04:44:11 <Sgeo> More than 1DPI
04:50:55 <zzo38> But do I have to make TeXnicard to print two files, one for process colors and one for text?
04:54:00 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida ??
04:55:24 <Sgeo> I don't have any girls named Ida
04:55:28 <cheater00> can you have literate literate programming?
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04:56:08 <zzo38> cheater00: Literate literate programming? You probably could, I guess.... but why? Because it is esoteric programming?
04:56:22 <cheater00> no, i mean like literate literate C
04:56:51 <zzo38> cheater00: What is literate literate C?
04:56:56 <Sgeo> Wouldn't that be a subset of literate literate programming?
04:57:21 <Sgeo> As opposed to a barely-legible currently-existing literate C?
04:57:22 <cheater00> zzo38: ????????????????????????????????
04:57:40 <zzo38> cheater00: ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
04:57:52 <cheater00> zzo38: ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
04:57:57 <zzo38> Sgeo: It isn't barely-legible unless you use the wrong printer?
04:57:59 <Sgeo> Begun, the question mark wars have?
04:58:17 <Sgeo> zzo38, by barely-legible I meant hard for humans to understand
04:58:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is not hard to understand if you understand programming.
04:58:46 <Sgeo> cheater00 apparently disagrees
04:59:09 <coppro> proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard
04:59:15 <coppro> (where -, is the not sign)
05:00:18 <zzo38> If you misunderstand then please write more clearly. And then the program/book can be understood.
05:00:31 <coppro> it's not long, I know this
05:00:42 <coppro> but it is excruciating to attempt to work out
05:02:33 <quintopia> logic tables is a nice way to prove something that only has two variables
05:02:36 <zzo38> cheater00: Logic tables will show you too, but probably that is not what he meant.
05:03:04 <cheater00> logic tables will knock on my door and give me a black eye?
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05:03:24 <quintopia> THE LOGIC TABLES WILL GET THEIR VENGEANCE, MWAHAHA
05:04:06 <Sgeo> elliott, when you logread this, your bot tells me to shut up about sex
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05:07:56 <coppro> cheater00: no, this involves syntactically deriving it from a set of axioms
05:09:08 <Sgeo> Are there statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms?
05:09:20 <Sgeo> Is logic expressive enough to express arithmatic?
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05:11:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: Have you seen Godel,Escher,Bach? It is a book maybe it can answer those two of your questions.
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05:12:18 <coppro> Sgeo: there are necessarily
05:12:32 <coppro> if you can prove anything, your logic is inconsistent
05:13:17 <Sgeo> coppro, I thought that was only in systems expressive enough to contain arithmatic?
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05:13:36 <Sgeo> coppro, also, *any true thing
05:14:15 <coppro> Sgeo: it's a bit more complex that that and requires some funkiness
05:19:28 <oklopol> "<elliott> j-invariant: help me design my language :P" <<< HEY! you should be doing drudge work on the CLUE
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05:21:55 <quintopia> there is no one thing you can pinpoint and say "if you can express this, GIT applies, and otherwise it does not." it's a collection of things you need to have to make the proof go through.
05:26:13 <oklopol> "<j-invariant> I just dug this small cave into a hill and trapped the cows in there" <<< YOU ARE A MONSTER
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05:33:43 <oklopol> "<elliott> 00:39:12 <oklopol> has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck?" "<elliott> how embarrassing" <<< not really, i just felt like it'd be a waste of time doing it twice
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05:39:20 <oklopol> but it turned out a bit too hard for by tiny brain, i'm not even sure i completely finished my brainfuck in brainfuck back then
05:53:06 <oklopol> "<Sgeo> Are there statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms?" <<< what if the statement that there are statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms is true but cannot be proven from axioms?
05:55:02 <pikhq> "The sandwich consists of a single warmed, hollowed-out loaf of bread filled with one jar of creamy peanut butter, one jar of grape jelly, and a pound of bacon." Wikipedia on the Fool's Gold Loaf.
05:55:05 <oklopol> "... <<< not really, i just felt like it'd be a waste of time doing it twice" <<< yes, waste of the world's time
05:55:14 <pikhq> This is produced by a *five star restaurant* in Denver.
05:55:49 <oklopol> that sounds pretty awesome
05:56:08 <oklopol> i don't know what grape jelly is but i suppose it is... grape jelly
05:56:20 <coppro> oklopol: grape with all the fruit taken out
05:57:18 <pikhq> oklopol: You may know it as "jam" or "fruit preserves"; the name for that method of food preservation is kinda regional in English.
05:59:44 <pikhq> The Fool's Gold Loaf originally cost $50; it now costs something closer to $100, and is served with a bottle of Dom Pérignon.
05:59:57 <pikhq> Quite an interesting combination of low and high class there.
06:01:02 <oklopol> i can only assume dom perignon is low class, because a pound of bacon is the highest you can get!
06:03:08 <pikhq> Dom Pérignon is a somewhat expensive vintage champagne.
06:05:44 <oklopol> if i have to be really honest, i had a hunch it was
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07:27:39 <cheater00> coppro: ~a => (a => b) <=> a => (~a => b) <=> ~( a ^ ~(~a => b)) <=> ~(a ^ ~a ^ ~b)
07:28:40 <cheater00> sure, you need to prove the negation of implication.
07:29:48 <cheater00> it depends on what definition of => you use.
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07:46:30 <cheater00> elliott: http://www.dansdata.com/gz084.htm that guy has no idea how rechargable batteries work.
07:47:02 <cheater00> elliott: also he has no idea how gradual consciousness upload should work. the method he presents is inferior to mine.
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08:39:47 <Sgeo> INGLIP HAS BEEN SUMMONED
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08:48:48 <oerjan> <coppro> proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard
08:49:02 <oerjan> dependent on your logic that might _be_ an axiom.
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08:51:09 <oerjan> i've seen (-,a) being considered an abbreviation for a->False, in which case the axiom would probably be False->b
08:53:05 <oerjan> <Sgeo> INGLIP HAS BEEN SUMMONED
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09:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It actually contradicts their lambda calculus article on the list encoding.
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13:05:16 <cheater-> old landlady has accused me of stealing a soap holder.
13:05:16 <fizzie> Perhaps you just have the face of a soap-holder stealer.
13:05:24 <cheater-> i totally need to rip her off for this 5 euro soap holder
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13:48:14 <coppro> cheater-: that sequence you posted does not work from the axioms we have
13:48:31 <coppro> it requires application of semantic meaning
13:48:33 <cheater-> coppro: what have you used instead?
13:48:41 <coppro> cheater-: I haven't worked it out yet
13:48:52 <cheater-> what axioms and theorems do you have so far?
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13:55:48 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic#Example_1._Simple_axiom_system
13:56:17 <coppro> minus the definitions of V and /\
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14:10:15 <cheater-> coppro: define the things defined in the last axiom, and then prove their properties.
14:11:25 <cheater-> with this set of axioms you don't even need to prove what the negation of implication is, since you've got it as a definition.
14:11:39 <j-invariant> 01:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, that article is too stupid to salvage.
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14:12:17 <cheater-> alternatively, take my argument above and replace all instances of ^ (x, y) with the right formula based on => (a, b).
14:12:49 <cheater-> you know how => works, so there should be no problem.
14:13:38 <cheater-> if you're complaining about having <=>, well, then just prove each direction of the equivalence by hand.
14:14:12 <cheater-> it's really about taking a high-level argument and compiling it down to a low-level axiom system
14:14:18 <j-invariant> it should cost 2 cents to post a youtube comment
14:16:22 <fizzie> If only because then everyone would end their comments with "just my 2 cents but..."
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14:29:09 <coppro> and no, <=> is not acceptable directly from the axioms
14:29:15 <coppro> the biconditional isn't even a symbol
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15:33:25 <cheater99> is there a programming paradigm which could be described as "preposterous programming"?
15:33:53 <cheater99> objects make false statements about other objects
15:34:10 <cheater99> then those other objects have to unwind all that fuckedupness
15:35:29 <cheater99> A.doesObjectImplement(B, 'Interface1') |-> True // B does not really implement Interface 1.
15:36:18 <cheater99> B.doesObjectHave(A, 'foo') |-> False // Although A.foo == 24
15:37:17 <cheater99> object C trusts A more than it trusts B
15:37:32 <cheater99> A's strategy is for B to not be used and for D to be used instead
15:38:12 <cheater99> this is because directly asked B would always say "i can do it!"
15:38:28 <cheater99> therefore C asks A which is judgemental
15:39:43 <cheater99> of course, A will also be judgemental of B if it doesn't even have a pointer to B
15:39:53 <cheater99> because A is preposterous, just like B is
15:40:16 <cheater99> alternatively, A could defer judgement to E, which might or might not be telling the truth
15:41:04 <cheater99> and then, A could be doing heavy interpretation of E's answer, too
15:44:18 <cheater99> This got me an interesting idea: Imagine a 2D area with each cell containing an instruction. Place a variable number of 8-sided cubes on the area, each cube has instructions on all sides.
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16:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> http://multimedia.worth1000.com/entries/619892/sagrada-familia-barcelona
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16:05:21 <oklopol> how fun, i just hacked about 500 stone at the server, then hopped, and now everything's back the way it was
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16:09:00 <oklopol> how the hell is that even possible
16:09:11 <oklopol> does ineiros randomly reset the server or something
16:11:48 <oklopol> and now it refuses my connection
16:11:57 <oklopol> and anyway that resetting thing happened again
16:12:14 <oklopol> i don't know and i don't care
16:12:28 <oklopol> well, i suppose no minecraft today
16:13:09 <quintopia> cheater99: find any page about algorithms on wp and edit it to see what they put around the pseudocode
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16:14:13 <oklopol> fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck
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16:15:26 <oklopol> ineiros: can i get a refund on all that work i did? :D
16:16:04 <ineiros> Yes, I'll have 0€ transferred to your account as soon as possible. ;)
16:16:10 <ineiros> There's something wrong there.
16:17:00 <quintopia> myndzi y u no complete sideways guy?
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16:18:12 <Vorpal> ineiros, completely wrong where?
16:19:20 <ineiros> Heh, didn't expect this to happen so soon; should have considered it: As you know, I've been running frequent backups since the last incident.
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16:19:45 <ineiros> I think I ran out of free inodes.
16:20:05 <Vorpal> and I guess you need to fix it then
16:20:10 <oklopol> what kind of 1910's operating system are you running
16:20:11 <ineiros> oklopol: Sorry about the lost work, I'll have the server back in no time.
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16:20:27 <Vorpal> ineiros, I would suggest xfs since it won't run out of inodes ever
16:20:38 <ineiros> Vorpal: Minecraft makes a lot of files, you know.
16:20:47 <oklopol> i have no quarrel with you even just destroying the whole world for fun, it's your server
16:21:06 <oklopol> but if you do fix it fast, yay, since otherwise i'll just go to sleep
16:21:20 <Vorpal> yeah xfs isn't too great at many small files
16:21:38 <Vorpal> oklopol, sleep? this early?
16:21:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, I just had breakfast! (Okay that was a bit late, but still)
16:21:54 <ineiros> oklopol: Server's back on.
16:21:55 <oklopol> well every day i go to sleep 2 hours earlier, until i loop
16:22:13 <oklopol> last night was later, but i'm catching up now
16:22:32 <Vorpal> oklopol, how does that work during non-holidays?
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16:22:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes but you aren't in Europe
16:23:25 <oklopol> Vorpal: it's just been going on this week, and 8-16 has been time awake, but in theory i could just sleep whenever i want, since i don't have that much mandatory stuff at uni
16:23:34 <cheater99> oklopol: write a Preposterous Programming language
16:23:37 <quintopia> so? the point is it is too early for sleep no matter where you are
16:23:39 <oklopol> just any third of every day
16:24:08 <oklopol> okay so there's only two commands, 0 and 1, and each is more preposterous than the last
16:24:19 <oklopol> that's the draft i have now
16:24:42 <oklopol> well you can obviously do brainfuck with that
16:24:48 <quintopia> apply the axiom of infinite improbability
16:24:54 <cheater99> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Preposterous_Programming
16:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> ineiros: can i get a refund on all that work i did? :D ← oooh, what're you doing?
16:25:19 <oklopol> + = 1010001010101110100100101110, - = 1010111100101000100110101001000010101, < = 101110100010101010101011, > = 0101000100010011010110, [ = 0101111, ] = 010110001010101110011001001001
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16:26:08 <oklopol> + you need some additional stuff if you want to nest []'s more than 7 deep, unless all your loops have an even amount of >'s
16:27:12 <oklopol> also you obviously need 01110 in the beginning of the program, if the bf program allocates cells too fast
16:27:51 <oklopol> also i shouldn't have done that because now i desperately want to find that language
16:31:00 <oklopol> okay so that's why the server had gotten so slow
16:31:26 <oklopol> ineiros: i can actually redo my work in no time since time is now 2.5 times faster
16:40:38 * cheater99 watches oklopol gather tiny tiny branches, feathers, and weeds in his beak, one at a time.
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16:56:05 <j-invariant> someone put a bot in haskell that man-in-the-middled folks
16:56:27 <j-invariant> like ti would just randomly PM two people "hey!" and then start transporting messages between
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17:25:32 <cheater99> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=323
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17:48:23 <elliott> 18:37:55 <pikhq> comex: Say: a) did you have any involvement in fail0verflow that you are willing to admit to b) are you in the US?
17:48:26 <elliott> pikhq: (a) I doubt (b) he is
17:49:17 <pikhq> elliott: The thing is, he actually *is* involved in Wii and iPhone hacking...
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17:49:35 <elliott> pikhq: but the fail0verflow thing was hardware-oriented, I think
17:49:42 <elliott> whereas his iphone exploit is sw-based, dunno about the wii one
17:50:05 <pikhq> His major Wii exploit is a buffer overflow in Brawl.
17:50:41 <elliott> http://superuser.com/questions/231273/what-are-the-windows-a-and-b-drives-used-for oh my god i'm 15 how young are you
17:50:44 <pikhq> And the fail0verflow exploit is heavily software-based.
17:50:53 <elliott> does your mother know you are on the internet kid
17:51:07 <elliott> a buffer overflow in C++ code, how did comex find that, must be a genius
17:51:36 <pikhq> The only thing they did to the hardware was wire a flasher to the flash where bits of the firmware are stored.
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17:53:57 <j-invariant> oklopol is cool: I never spent my summer trying to solve a problem like that
17:54:53 <elliott> 18:57:07 <zzo38> pikhq: They should write the console private key on the case, restore the 4 USB ports (instead of having only 2 USB ports), and make it so the console private key can be used anywhere that the universal one can be used and vice versa. And then whichever employee published it, might decide to stop distributing the universal key.
17:55:17 <pikhq> Yeaaah, zzo38 was a bit confused about what the *main* exploit was.
17:55:26 <elliott> 18:58:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: Someone made it like that deliberately because they wanted users to have the key, but without telling the other people who work in Sony.
17:55:28 <pikhq> (fail0verflow found several)
17:55:37 <elliott> I have EVIDENCE for this but you can't see it!
17:55:48 <elliott> Or maybe I'm just making shit up
17:55:56 <pikhq> (and there's probably more: they use C and C++! BUFFER OVERFLOWS, AHOY!)
17:56:17 <elliott> 19:22:48 <Gregor> "A 2009 study published in Boston Review found that nearly 25 percent of non-Jewish Americans blamed Jews for the financial crisis of 2008–2009, with a higher percentage among Democrats than Republicans."
17:56:22 <elliott> Gregor: Shut up, you filthy Jew.
17:57:00 <elliott> 19:56:05 <pikhq> Oh, it's Sony v. George Hotz, Cantero, Sven Peter, and Does 1 through 100.
17:57:07 <elliott> doe, a deer, a hundred female deers
17:57:15 <j-invariant> http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/jews012.jpg
17:58:01 <quintopia> huh, what letter did old windows systems assign to tape drives? :P
17:58:01 <elliott> 20:14:17 * Sgeo is [not actually] tempted to mention pikhq's name
17:58:20 <elliott> quintopia: they ... didn't :P
17:58:40 <Sgeo> Suppose, hypothetically, their lawyers googled for the keys
17:59:13 <j-invariant> elliott: I'm thinking of studying a normalization proof of CoC
17:59:30 <elliott> 20:59:09 <coppro> proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard
17:59:30 <elliott> 20:59:15 <coppro> (where -, is the not sign)
17:59:31 <elliott> 20:59:45 <quintopia> is it?
17:59:35 <elliott> 21:00:31 <coppro> it's not long, I know this
17:59:37 <elliott> 21:00:42 <coppro> but it is excruciating to attempt to work out
17:59:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, they can have *all* of my savings!
17:59:39 <elliott> lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
17:59:47 <pikhq> Hope you like your $20 profit!
17:59:47 <elliott> BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT PROVING TRIVIAL THINGS IN PROOF SYSTEMS IS HARD
18:00:01 <elliott> now let me get back to proving the principle of explosion
18:00:24 <elliott> 21:12:18 <coppro> Sgeo: there are necessarily
18:00:24 <elliott> 21:12:32 <coppro> if you can prove anything, your logic is inconsistent
18:00:34 <elliott> this is like a trifecta of shut the fuck up
18:00:50 <elliott> 21:13:17 <Sgeo> coppro, I thought that was only in systems expressive enough to contain arithmatic?
18:00:52 <elliott> 21:14:15 <coppro> Sgeo: it's a bit more complex that that and requires some funkiness
18:01:01 <elliott> 21:19:28 <oklopol> "<elliott> j-invariant: help me design my language :P" <<< HEY! you should be doing drudge work on the CLUE
18:01:56 <cheater99> elliott: i've been riding around in a sinclair a lot lately
18:02:26 <elliott> j-invariant: um cled is an editor for clue code, as i keep trying to tell you :P
18:02:45 <cheater99> the outer hull is made like a water bike :p
18:03:09 <cheater99> they had to relocate it to the area around my front door because of the ballet school taking place
18:03:17 <elliott> 23:46:30 <cheater00> elliott: http://www.dansdata.com/gz084.htm that guy has no idea how rechargable batteries work.
18:03:22 <elliott> ugh wtf is sgeo tlking about now
18:03:40 <cheater99> elliott: yeah, he says charging up a battery for 5 secs should not show it as completely charged
18:03:49 <elliott> 05:48:14 <coppro> cheater-: that sequence you posted does not work from the axioms we have
18:03:49 <elliott> 05:48:31 <coppro> it requires application of semantic meaning
18:03:55 <elliott> cheater99: i wasn't agreeing with you
18:04:17 <cheater99> he doesn't know how the measurement is made and why it is going to be showing up as full
18:04:27 <elliott> doesn't change the fact that it is /wrong/
18:04:30 <elliott> from a human point of view
18:04:37 <cheater99> no, he subscribes to some sort of conspiracy theory
18:05:03 <cheater99> he doesn't even remotely mention that it's wrong because, hey, it's a fucking battery with a non-linear charging process
18:05:15 <elliott> 06:29:09 <coppro> and no, <=> is not acceptable directly from the axioms
18:05:15 <elliott> 06:29:15 <coppro> the biconditional isn't even a symbol
18:05:15 <elliott> 06:29:19 <coppro> and we don't have /\
18:05:19 <elliott> OH GOD YOU HAVE TO WRITE OUT THREE SIMPLE DEFINITIONS HOLY SHIT
18:05:42 <cheater99> elliott: we have had to write out the definition of False once.
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18:10:34 <cheater99> i didn't know elliott's tie was computerized
18:15:46 <fizzie> Misread "elliott's tie was compromised"; didn't know they were hacking ties already.
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18:27:05 <cheater99> fizzie: so you think elliott has ties to hacking?
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18:28:20 <Sgeo> drakhan is obviously a Sony lawyer
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18:29:21 <elliott> http://tuomov.iki.fi/ is back up — but without his blog.
18:29:59 <elliott> Oh, http://tuomov.bitcheese.net/b/ seems to be a partial archive.
18:30:13 <Sgeo> elliott, what do you have against me saying the word sex?
18:30:21 <elliott> A filter must be malfunctioning.
18:30:24 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about sex!
18:30:42 <elliott> It decides what to yell at you for based on what you say + the regexp, so hmm.
18:31:12 <Sgeo> It also hates fantasy
18:31:17 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about your fantasies!
18:31:37 <elliott> Fixed the first report. It'll come into action, uh, ... whenever I restart it which is rare.
18:35:59 <elliott> sup is me trying to get ubuntu booting
18:38:39 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:44:59 <pikhq> ... Sony is claiming that the court has jurisdiction because github.com is in California.
18:48:55 <pikhq> Sony is also claiming *ownership* of all PS3s.
18:49:48 <pikhq> Page 21, line 9. "SCEA possesses an ownership interest in the PS3 System."
18:49:51 <oklopol> like, people who have bought a ps3 actually just have an expensive loan console?
18:50:04 <pikhq> From the complaint.
18:50:23 <pikhq> oklopol: They are claiming that this hack was *trespassing*.
18:50:28 <oklopol> seriously? :D that was a joke :P
18:50:41 <oklopol> i figured you actually meant something else
18:50:50 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:51:03 <pikhq> "Defendants have appropriated SCEA's property at little or no cost to them."
18:51:55 <quintopia> i'd have to see the TaCoS on PS3 purchases to believe that...
18:52:16 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:52:30 <cheater00> <quintopia> i'd have to see the TaCoS on PS3 purchases to believe that... < what does that mean?
18:52:42 <pikhq> And they are also claiming that this hack consists of cracking into someone else's computer.
18:52:56 <pikhq> And that it's a violation of terms of service.
18:53:07 <pikhq> Said terms, you need not actually *agree* to.
18:53:16 <pikhq> It's the terms of service for PSN.
18:53:45 <quintopia> if there is some license in there that says "by turning this system on you agree that you are leasing SCEA's property for an indefinite period and will not modify etc. SCEA's property" then they can probably get away with that...
18:54:47 <pikhq> quintopia: Because the US's laws are motherfucking insane.
18:55:15 -!- j-invariant has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:56:49 <quintopia> what do you think of this thing: http://sensebridge.net/projects/northpaw/
19:06:08 -!- j-invariant has joined.
19:09:09 <Gregor> quintopia: It's ... big.
19:09:35 <ais523> haha, reddit managed to get into a Scala vs. Clojure flamewar
19:09:39 <ais523> that's one I didn't expect to see
19:09:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:10:33 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/f07sn/scala_effective_java/c1ccuk6
19:10:51 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:12:03 <cheater00> i remember trolling someone in one of the php channels by saying that scala runs in java
19:12:22 -!- j-invariant has joined.
19:12:27 <ais523> oh, there's a php vs. gcc row going on at the moment
19:12:54 <ais523> because PHP's strtod bug was using undefined behaviour in C89, which gcc exploits for better optimisations
19:13:35 <ais523> here's a php advocate in the war: http://blog.andreas.org/display?id=9
19:13:52 <Sgeo> Why would someone rely on undefined behavior for something crucial?
19:13:56 <Sgeo> By accident, I guess?
19:14:10 <Vorpal> <ais523> oh, there's a php vs. gcc row going on at the moment <-- wait what
19:14:21 <ais523> the funny thing is, the PHP code in question was a copy of a strtod function in use elsewhere
19:14:22 <Vorpal> that is like comparing apples and bookshelfs
19:14:28 <Vorpal> not even apples and pears
19:14:31 <ais523> and it had a big comment saying "this code does not work on x87"
19:14:35 <ais523> and guess where PHP tried to use it?
19:14:46 <ais523> Vorpal: it's about whose fault a bug was
19:14:57 <ais523> the PHP side is claiming it's a compiler bug, the gcc side's claiming it's a program bug
19:15:03 <Vorpal> ais523, they tried to use it on x86?
19:15:10 <cheater00> why doesn't that idiot show his last name anywhere on the page
19:15:17 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed, with x87 instructions as the floating point emu
19:15:19 <cheater00> could his family not afford a last name?
19:15:33 <Vorpal> ais523, but uh what did it expect?
19:15:42 <Vorpal> ais523, that x87 did wronfg
19:16:07 <ais523> Vorpal: oh, x87 is more accurate than a normal C double
19:16:20 <Vorpal> ais523, yes so why did they use long double then
19:16:25 <ais523> they didn't, they used double
19:16:32 <Vorpal> ais523, then I don't see...
19:16:38 <ais523> but assumed that a floating point number would necessarily compare equal to itself, if not a NaN
19:16:48 <ais523> that isn't actually the case in C
19:17:16 <ais523> because you might be comparing a value stored in memory with a value stored in the x87 registers
19:17:26 <ais523> and the x87 registers are more accurate
19:17:35 <ais523> copying a value from the registers to memory and back can thus change its value
19:17:43 <Vorpal> ais523, but these days you always use SSE
19:17:50 <Vorpal> unless you use long double
19:17:51 <ais523> C99 specifies that you can't do that sort of thing; C89 doesn't
19:18:03 <ais523> (don't ask me why, I didn't set its compiler flags)
19:18:04 <Vorpal> ais523, unlikely on x86-64
19:18:23 <ais523> this is presumably x86-32
19:19:06 <ais523> anyway, I wouldn't really expect a floating point number to necessarily compare equal to itself, floating point is that insane
19:19:38 <ais523> if the PHP devs did, they probably insufficiently understand floating point in C (not really surprising; /most/ people insufficiently understand floating point in C, including probably me)
19:20:22 <cheater00> i bet you sufficiently understand floating point in c.
19:20:47 <Vorpal> cheater00, are you sufficiently sure of that
19:21:13 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway C99 guarantees this doesn't it?
19:21:19 <Vorpal> and I wouldn't use C89 any more
19:21:21 <fizzie> There's that article, "what every computer scientist should know about floating-point numbers" or some-such.
19:21:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, I read it
19:22:27 <ais523> C99 does indeed guarantee that doubles are cut down to 64 bits of precision before being compared, by default
19:22:36 <ais523> there's a bunch of defines that can be used to tweak the behaviour
19:22:51 <ais523> but I can't remember whether it's in a program, or just fixed defines that report what the floating-point behaviour is
19:23:03 <Vorpal> ais523, yes and C99 is older than 10 years. C89/C90 is older than 20 years. Surely it is time to move on?
19:23:10 <zzo38> There are things I do not like in C99.
19:24:16 <fizzie> C1x is just around the corner too.
19:24:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are the news in it?
19:24:37 <fizzie> For some values of "corner".
19:26:33 <cheater00> c1x is fully functional with type inference
19:26:43 <fizzie> The latest draft is not very dramatic. Multithreading and Unicode things, gets dropped finally, official compile-time asserts...
19:26:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, oooh compile time asserts
19:27:25 <Vorpal> cheater00, sounds like c++202x
19:27:43 <fizzie> It's hopefully prettier than the existing hacky preprocessor tricks.
19:27:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, one can only hope
19:28:06 <fizzie> That make a negative-sized array with a funny name or other things like that.
19:28:44 <zzo38> fizzie: As part of a structure, so that it does not use up any memory at run-time.
19:29:09 <fizzie> Oh, and a exclusive-create mode letter ("x") for fopen, and that anonymous structure/union thing that I think many compilers already do.
19:29:25 <fizzie> zzo38: Sure, but the error messages are still a bit suboptimal.
19:29:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, the anon structure is pretty useless
19:30:01 <zzo38> fizzie: You can make the error message display something specific using #line directive, maybe?
19:30:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, how will it do multithreading I wonder
19:32:15 -!- elliottu has joined.
19:32:33 <elliottu> does anyone know how the ubuntu installer calculates how big a swap partition to create?
19:34:02 <Gregor> I have a composer friend who found out about a contest for the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible to write a composition using its text as the words. I'm trying to convince him to write and submit something using some of the less tasteful passages encouraging slave ownership, rape, etc :P
19:34:08 -!- zzo38 has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
19:34:48 <elliottu> King James: too hardcore for you.
19:35:50 <zzo38> Gregor: I suppose you can use any passages, you can use less tasteful passage for part of it too, but you can also use other passages. Some of the verses are just the names so you can use that, too. I assume deuterocanonical/apocrypha are disallowed?
19:36:16 <Gregor> Has to be from the KJB, can't be from psalms or songs.
19:36:30 <elliottu> Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis.
19:36:46 <elliottu> The most inspirational song EVER
19:36:51 <quintopia> i think a song that's just an endless droning of that section in genesis that's all A begat B begat C begat D begat E begat F begat etc. could be amusing
19:37:10 <quintopia> well, great minds think alike and all
19:37:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Very traditionally, I think. Thread-local storage type declarators, and then a <threads.h> with vaguely pthready creation/mutex/condvar options; and then atomic operations -- more than just sig_atomic_t -- for lockless things.)
19:38:07 <elliottu> quintopia: Loop it, add an irritating your-speakers-exploded-but-now-it's-silent-aand-repeat-steadily beat, and echo the fuck out of it.
19:38:28 <zzo38> Gregor: So, Psalms is also disallowed.
19:38:44 <zzo38> What kind of music/scales/temperaments are used in Biblical times? Can you make a music using the same kind?
19:39:37 <quintopia> elliottu: it should also be done in the voice of that guy from butthole surfers that did the spoken word stuff in "my brother's wife"
19:40:54 <pikhq> Clearly it should be Song of Solomon. Mmm, biblical erotica.
19:41:43 <elliottu> I hate how god damn useless #ubuntu is.
19:42:10 <coppro> who is elliottu and why can I see him talk
19:42:26 <pikhq> elliottu is elliott with a goatee. So you know he's evil.
19:42:29 <elliottu> coppro: GEE I APOLOGISE FOR USING A LIVECD
19:42:38 <elliottu> coppro: just fuck off, stop being childish, and reignore me if I do something so INSULTING
19:42:55 <Gregor> OK, new idea: One singer sings the X-begat-Y section softly, while two singers sing a selection of passages that directly contradict each other, at the same time.
19:43:06 <elliottu> coppro: Talking about /ignores: it makes you cool.
19:43:12 <elliottu> Wait, wait, no, I forgot: It makes you stupid.
19:43:42 <copumpkin> yeah, the worst thing about people worth ignoring
19:43:52 <copumpkin> are the people who feel the need to advertise that they can't hear what the ignored person is saying
19:45:00 <pikhq> copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying.
19:45:04 <pikhq> Thereby defeating the point.
19:45:54 <elliottu> Oh well, 8 gigs of swap should be ENOUGH FOR EVERYBODY
19:46:30 <quintopia> Gregor: when you say "one singer sings" you mean "one beatboxer beatboxes" right?
19:46:49 <Gregor> FIVE GOLDEN RIIIIIIIIINGS
19:47:04 <elliottu> OH LOL LOOK IM INSTALLIN NOW ->
19:47:24 <elliottu> i'll come back under a different nick just to see coppro be whiny again
19:47:29 <cheater00> elliottu: OMG THE CD DRIVE IS THERE?
19:47:29 -!- elliottu has quit (Quit: Page closed).
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19:53:19 <zzo38> Do you, or do you not, "do you, or do you knot"?
19:53:32 <quintopia> [A-Za-z]{8,} matches any alphabetic character repeated at least 8 times in a row, yes?
19:54:01 * quintopia uses people instead of regex checkers
19:54:21 <zzo38> quintopia: Do you want the same letter repeated or different letter?
19:54:51 <zzo38> Can you use back references?
19:55:05 <quintopia> any legal perl regex is fine i think
19:55:38 <zzo38> Then see if using back references will do?
19:55:51 <quintopia> now i have to look up how to do that again :/
19:57:58 <variable> quintopia, that will be the same as [A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z]
19:58:20 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Very traditionally, I think. Thread-local storage type declarators, and then a <threads.h> with vaguely pthready creation/mutex/condvar options; and then atomic operations -- more than just sig_atomic_t -- for lockless things.) <-- ah
19:59:23 <quintopia> variable: so how about ([a-zA-Z])\1{7,}
19:59:38 <Vorpal> <pikhq> copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying. <-- that sounds like elliott
19:59:52 <variable> quintopia, I think that would work
20:00:23 <copumpkin> in dual-land, copumpkin carve you!
20:00:37 * variable is a const - I can't be carved
20:00:43 <Vorpal> copumpkin, he could still carve you. not as in cutting but as in wanting
20:01:03 <Vorpal> copumpkin, I'm just too sleepy
20:01:25 <Vorpal> it is tim to sleep soon
20:01:51 <Vorpal> except my sleep schedule is fucked up
20:02:51 <Sgeo> Vorpal, join the club
20:03:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?
20:03:22 <Sgeo> Although it's getting better... no it's not
20:03:23 <Vorpal> as long as it is fixed to next week
20:03:39 <Sgeo> It's alternating between going to sleep at a normal time, and staying up all night
20:04:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo, mine is just moving around all over the place
20:04:11 <Sgeo> I need to be awake Friday. I don't feel like meeting up with her when I'm too tired to care
20:04:13 <Vorpal> with no reasonable pattern
20:04:24 <Sgeo> I want to be awake when I'm around her
20:05:02 <quintopia> variable: highlight me with a message containing an expression that regex should match
20:05:08 <Sgeo> I don't think it's at the point where it can be called "love" yet
20:05:30 <Sgeo> I'm also not sure if she's that interested in me. Or, well, she gives mixed signals somtimes
20:06:04 <Sgeo> Vorpal, if you dropped the h, you'd sound like zzo38
20:06:23 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes but I'm not him
20:10:50 <variable> quintopia, oh sorry - I went away for a bit
20:10:57 <variable> let me play with some things and I'll let you kno
20:11:19 <ais523> hmm, PHP has 13 different sort functions: http://us2.php.net/manual/en/array.sorting.php
20:14:54 <Vorpal> ais523, and none of them are stable
20:14:58 <Vorpal> also uh, random sort!?
20:17:00 <variable> Vorpal, I noticed that too - it twas funny
20:21:04 <ais523> also, all of them are in-plae
20:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I wish I could make XChat /away me when I close the lid of my laptop.
20:23:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:23:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, PHP has a sort function for user-defined orderings
20:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought PHP had either no or extremely crappy support for first-class functions.
20:25:46 <fizzie> They added closures in PHP 5.3.0.
20:25:53 <cheater00> oh no, it had that long before that
20:26:12 <ais523> well, you can use second-class functions for sort callbacks just fine
20:26:16 <cheater00> which until 5.3.0 was a string containing function name
20:26:35 <cheater00> or an array containing object or class name as the 0th index and function name as the first
20:26:54 <fizzie> Right, they just added proper (or I don't know how proper they are, but at least proper-looking) anonymous functions in 5.3.0.
20:27:07 <cheater00> yeah, and they started calling them closures
20:27:18 <cheater00> because they're confused about computarrzzz
20:27:42 <cheater00> and then they added the use() cancer so that they can actually be closures.
20:29:35 <fizzie> They also have a rather strange sort of nested functions; if you do function foo() { function bar() { ... } } then you can bar() from anywhere, but only after calling foo() once.
20:31:43 <cheater00> yea, it's like using a variable in a lambda without lambdaing it
20:32:15 <cheater00> f = \x.x+y <==> f = function(x) use(y) { return x+y; }
20:32:38 <Sgeo> Crap, just saw some false information, than a link to Snopes discrediting it. My understanding though, is that if you receive information that you only mentally discredit later, it still gets stuck in the mind as "true"
20:32:53 <cheater00> f = \x.x+y <==> $f $= $function($x) $use($y) ${ $return $x$+$y$; $}
20:33:29 <fizzie> Oh, and even pre 5.3.0 (since 4.0.1) they had this thing for anonymous functions: string create_function(string $args , string $code)
20:33:43 <fizzie> You give it a bit of code as a string, and it defines a randomly named new function and returns the name.
20:34:00 <fizzie> Then you can pass the new name into something that takes a callback.
20:34:17 <cheater00> they also do a shitload via eval()
20:35:33 <zzo38> create_function will waste memory though, there is no way to delete a function in PHP, or to override one which exists.
20:35:48 <Sgeo> zzo38, ooh, like Forth!
20:35:50 <zzo38> However, it is possible to pass an array with an object, as a callback. So you can do like that instead.
20:36:00 <Sgeo> </deliberate-misunderstanding-of-forth>
20:37:27 <cheater00> zzo38: php wasting memory? CAN'T BE
20:37:56 * Sgeo wonders if Objective-J is decent
20:38:06 <zzo38> cheater00: PHP is also slow. (However, it is fast enough to run my IRC client, and it actually does this well.)
20:39:45 <Sgeo> cheater00, meet zzo38.
20:40:03 -!- ellioppro has joined.
20:40:15 <ellioppro> it installed, what are the chances
20:40:21 <ellioppro> and i only had to boot into a non-graphical environment and plug in ethernet _once_
20:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ellioppro, when did you two merge into a superorganism.
20:41:11 <ellioppro> Phantom_Hoover: I'm irritating coppro by circumventing his ignore, since he keeps doing the age-old IRC dickwaddery of bringing up that I'm ignored constantly.
20:41:18 <cheater00> zzo38: do you have an eval command there?
20:41:51 <cheater00> ellioppro: IS SUPERDUPERDRIVE YOURS???
20:42:04 <zzo38> cheater00: There is a single eval command in the program, but it is used only for parsing the initialization file.
20:42:06 <Sgeo> ellioppro, remember when you ignored me? You were furious when I curcumvented it
20:42:17 <Sgeo> And you kept reminding me that I was on ignore
20:42:21 <cheater00> zzo38: can i somehow store numbers into your php process?
20:42:22 <zzo38> And only lines starting with <
20:42:45 <Sgeo> How many times did you mention that, due to the ignore, things were better?
20:42:46 <zzo38> cheater00: What do you mean? The eval does not take any input remotely.
20:43:02 <cheater00> zzo38: yeah ok.. but say i wanted to store a value that is later kept in the memory of your php process
20:43:17 <Sgeo> ellioppro, more than that
20:43:25 <Sgeo> Unless my memory is failing
20:43:45 <Sgeo> Do you remember the dates?
20:43:51 <cheater00> Sgeo: lies, ellioppro never ignores anyone
20:44:16 <ellioppro> download faster, you fucking computer
20:44:22 <cheater00> welllllll, except for Phantom_Hoover
20:44:23 <zzo38> cheater00: As far as I know you cannot do that. (You can send things and it is stored in the scrollback of PuTTY)
20:44:40 <zzo38> (PHIRC does use PuTTY to actually display everything in colors and so on)
20:44:58 <ellioppro> 12:32:38 <Sgeo> Crap, just saw some false information, than a link to Snopes discrediting it. My understanding though, is that if you receive information that you only mentally discredit later, it still gets stuck in the mind as "true"
20:45:02 <cheater00> zzo38: do you get any commands that respond to triggers or something?
20:45:04 <ellioppro> Sgeo: OH MY GOD YOU WILL HOLD THIS MISUNDERSTANDING FOREVER
20:45:18 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: ellioppro is not his friend
20:45:41 <zzo38> cheater00: The program will respond automatically to CTRL+A commands: FINGER PING TIME USERINFO VERSION
20:45:47 -!- ellioppro has changed nick to copprelliott.
20:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater00, candidly, I don't think he's too fond of cheater00 either.
20:46:15 <copprelliott> maybe he has .*e.*l.*l.*i.*o.*t.*t.* on ignore
20:46:26 <zzo38> (But only if /SET ANSWER + is set)
20:46:32 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: copprelliott is very fond of cheater00
20:47:05 <cheater00> zzo38: you should have at least one command that takes the message, stores it as a number, and prints it or something
20:47:28 <zzo38> cheater00: Why is such a thing necessary?
20:47:39 <cheater00> it's necessary. no explanation given.
20:48:14 <zzo38> Here is the code, you can look at it, and make your own modifications if that is what you want to do: http://sprunge.us/QeLb
20:49:59 <copprelliott> it doesn't seem to do any multitouch, prolly i need another driver
20:50:11 <cheater00> copprelliott: also, make sure your cpu is running on normal speed
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20:50:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:50:30 <copprelliott> i'd prefer to keep the fan down + conserve power usage.
20:52:13 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:52:25 <cheater-> because mine always boots into slowest_mode
20:53:22 <copprelliott> the cpu scales up as it is used, i see no issue
20:54:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:54:36 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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20:57:19 <copprelliott> i have a portable, unplugged USB drive to put ubuntu on any macbook air! kinda like a usb stick, except gigantic. :P
20:58:45 -!- copprelliott has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:02:52 <zzo38> What is the difference of cheater00 cheater99 cheater- ?
21:03:40 <zzo38> The service provider is all the same.
21:04:25 <cheater99> truly, your cunning is remarkable.
21:04:34 <pikhq> WE HAVE A NON-TRINITARIAN HERE
21:05:18 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/67468/ Japan has improved upon the slip-n-slide.
21:05:57 <oklopol> "<elliottu> Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis." <<< surely modern bibles just have a few diagrams for these
21:07:32 <pikhq> Gregor: The text is even more WTF.
21:07:42 <zzo38> oklopol: Modern Bibles are the same they just have different translations. Some also have footnotes, and some have deutrocanonical books, too.
21:07:54 <Gregor> pikhq: Translate for us :P
21:07:59 <zzo38> Some might have diagrams, though.
21:08:36 <pikhq> Gregor: "*something I can't read* Crank 2009! Milk! Construction! Explosions!" on the left.
21:08:46 <oklopol> "<copumpkin> are the people who feel the need to advertise that they can't hear what the ignored person is saying" <<< no i think it's even worse when the ignored people start telling the ignorers how childish they are... wait, i'm even worse
21:09:37 <Gregor> This event is known to cause what some call a "milk explosion"
21:09:54 <pikhq> Gregor: "September~October 'The Autumn of Sports' An example photograph‽" on the right.
21:11:04 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, I completely misparsed a bit of that. s/Milk/Tits/
21:12:49 -!- elliott has joined.
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21:13:00 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?" <<< good morning
21:13:16 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest78959.
21:13:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:13:52 <Guest78959> 13:05:57 <oklopol> "<elliottu> Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis." <<< surely modern bibles just have a few diagrams for these
21:14:15 <pikhq> Stick it on a time line. :)
21:14:48 -!- Guest78959 has changed nick to elliott.
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21:15:39 <Gregor> elliott: Aren't you glad you've hidden your IP, which is 91.104.236.154?
21:16:23 <Gregor> My hostname is codu.org. Jealous much?
21:16:40 <zzo38> Maybe the reason you put "@unaffiliated/elliott" is to see if you are login to the services??
21:17:02 <elliott> Gregor: You should set up a fake ident daemon (there's tons of them) on codu.org, and configure it to tell the server that your username is whatever your email username is.
21:17:09 <elliott> Gregor: So your hostname would be your email address.
21:17:16 <elliott> THIS IS M Y IDEA (C) ME FOREVER--FOREVER
21:17:43 <zzo38> I want to put my hostname "zzo38computer.cjb.net" (it does resolve to the computer I connected from) but they will not do that.
21:18:37 <zzo38> elliott: The Freenode.
21:18:39 <oklopol> lol @ elliott claiming he never repeatedly told someone they were ignored :E
21:19:02 <elliott> oklopol, oh i don't deny that
21:19:08 <elliott> i just deny i did it the last time i ignored sgeo
21:19:37 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know.
21:21:02 <oklopol> http://9gag.com/gag/67468/ <<< but what if you accidentally have an erection and get stuck between the girls
21:21:16 <oklopol> that would be embarrassing
21:21:18 <cheater99> are you going to install every language possible on your ubuntu now?
21:21:39 <cheater99> oklopol: what if the erection gets stuck between the girls?
21:22:15 <ais523> elliott: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf
21:22:41 <elliott> ais523: yay, another paper i can't understand
21:22:43 <oklopol> "<elliott> i just deny i did it the last time i ignored sgeo" <<< oh well possible
21:22:50 <ais523> elliott: it's the one I wanted to link you to earlier but couldn't find a legal copy of
21:22:55 <elliott> but i haven't, yet, expended the effort to
21:23:07 <elliott> ais523: i like how you have to work to find a legal version of your own paper.
21:23:16 <ais523> the bottom of page 7 is amusing
21:23:20 <oklopol> i don't actually recall you doing that with Sgeo, but you have definitely done it! maybe it was cool back then tho, dunno
21:23:51 <ais523> note that that isn't just "one such example", but the simplest known example
21:24:01 <ais523> that took quite a bit of esoprogramming to find
21:24:11 <elliott> I WISH I COULD SIDUHGDSFGJKHGSJKFGHLSKJFLHL;GKFDJGDSKDS SELECT TEXT
21:24:37 <cheater99> ais523: what uni are you on again?
21:25:39 <elliott> apparently the channel is better without me, i.e. the channel is almost silent
21:25:40 <oklopol> i was just thinking about stuff and realized i might know how to prove this thing i've spent like 40 million hours trying to prove... and then i quickly stopped thinking about it before realizing what the reason for *this* idea not working will be, tl;dr, i can never think about math again :(
21:26:25 <cheater99> haha oklopol, you are reduced to liberal arts!!!!!!
21:26:37 <Phantom_Hoover> 11:45:00 <pikhq> copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying.
21:26:52 <elliott> ais523: I'm going to play Quadrapassel until you tell me how to get selection working.
21:27:07 <oklopol> or maybe i need to change my branch of math to something far enough
21:27:13 <zzo38> Get selection working on what?
21:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> If you want to be able to ignore the dross someone comes out with 90% of the time and get context when someone else actually pays them any heed, it's worthwhile.
21:28:13 <oklopol> what's http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf? opening pdf's from the internets is just so much work
21:28:35 <elliott> seq : com × exp → exp is sequencing of command with expression, denoted by “;” when used in infix
21:28:35 <elliott> notation, resulting in an expression with side effects;
21:28:54 <elliott> ais523: "first we build this comprehensive cage to put side-effects in, then we poke a big hole in it"
21:28:57 <ais523> oklopol: my second paper as a PhD student
21:29:10 <ais523> elliott: it's meant to be a simple imperative language
21:29:13 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i only use ignore in order to be in control of the times of looking at messages, so i don't pass out from anger when some retard is telling me how math works
21:29:18 <ais523> we didn't cage side-effects at all, except via variable scope
21:29:53 <oklopol> and therefore actually look at all the messages later
21:29:57 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i only use ignore in order to be in control of the times of looking at messages, so i don't pass out from anger when some retard is telling me how math works ← I use it to get rid of people who insist on butting into irrelevant conversations.
21:30:21 <elliott> I imagine a 38 is involved somehow.
21:30:54 <oklopol> ais523: oh cool, then i might open it actually
21:31:08 <ais523> unlike the one before, I actually did most of the actual research that lead to that paper
21:31:09 <elliott> hmm, what's a good way to figure out what touchpad driver I am using?
21:31:14 <ais523> although it was only about half written by me
21:31:14 <oklopol> we've been talking publishing some of my stuff once i get my master's finished
21:31:40 <oklopol> so currently publications are like the biggest thing in my life, you're basically a god now
21:31:54 <ais523> in academia, publications are all anyone cares about, it seems
21:32:16 * elliott goes about installing Chrome
21:32:21 <elliott> sorry, Firefox; you're too hateful
21:33:28 <elliott> i have a feeling Ubuntu is going to be able to do almost, but not entirely, not what i want with my touchpad
21:34:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:34:37 <oklopol> ais523: i don't really have the same experience, people are so damn modest... it's like they don't even pay attention to what they do... for instance today person X said he has book Y in his shelf, and prof Z said "oh, that's mine"; i asked "you mean yours as in you're the author, or as in you own it?", he said he owned it. ten minutes later, he looks at the cover and goes "oh right, i actually did write this"
21:35:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:35:10 <oklopol> (he was a coauthor and it was more than 10 years old but anyway)
21:35:19 <pikhq> Ah good. David Touretzky is getting involved in the PS3 BS.
21:35:35 <zzo38> Why is David Touretzky?
21:36:58 <pikhq> Professor of CS at Carnegie Mellon. Quite involved in the DeCSS litigation and a pain in the ass for the Church of Scientology.
21:37:05 <elliott> great ... i need to install Flash
21:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i aspire to be prof Z ← I recall a story about one of the Cayley-era mathematicians who told someone the first thing in his proof was wrong, and then the person showed him a proof that he himself had done and forgotten about.
21:37:20 <pikhq> (he's responsible for many, many leaks of CoS doctrine)
21:37:36 <cheater99> oklopol: that's just false humbleness
21:38:08 <cheater99> elliott: i have something good for you
21:38:19 <cheater99> elliott: there's a ff plugin that installs the RIGHT version of flash for you
21:38:36 <elliott> what bullshit is that, i have a package manager
21:38:41 <elliott> it has the 64-bit flash in it
21:38:44 <cheater99> yea, the one from the package manager sucks dicks
21:38:53 <elliott> it's the native 64-bit one now
21:39:01 <elliott> cheater99: umm, it's the 32-bit one that did that
21:39:08 <cheater99> or you could just install flash-aid
21:39:36 <elliott> right, flash-aid has secret access to a magical adobe version that fixes everything
21:39:46 <elliott> unlike the new 64-bit native one that Adobe released only a month or two ago
21:40:00 <elliott> ok you're clearly trolling at this juncture
21:40:15 <elliott> also, i don't use firefox.
21:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It has the "Clear" button right where you'd expect the "Close" button.
21:42:03 <oklopol> "<cheater99> oklopol: that's just false humbleness" <<< possibly, but it was some sort of survey or dunno, name was something like automata theory 134; actually may just have been a collection of papers, and he mentioned he was an author as a joke, since he happened to be compiling it now that i think about it :D
21:42:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: /ignore foo*!*@* all
21:42:36 <cheater99> elliott: you're well versed in the ignore
21:43:10 <oklopol> elliott: i'm going to ignore you now because i don't like the way you think
21:44:29 <oklopol> i mean it's not the things you say, or the way you say it, it's just what i can tell from the order and structure in which the facts come out, you think in a very insulting way.
21:44:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I'm going to ignore you because I think there are too many Finns on the channel and I can't handle all of them.
21:44:59 <oklopol> that's 100% understandable
21:45:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:45:25 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Then ignore *!*@*.fi ? Probably not the best idea, though.
21:45:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I am going to ignore you because you are English and I'm contractually obligated to hate you.
21:46:10 <zzo38> We can all type in English.
21:46:23 <oklopol> there was a finntroll on #math once, and TRWBW was like "k, there goes that country forever"
21:46:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | I'll suck up ALL your fleep, baby! | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
21:46:55 <cheater99> elliott: i'm going to ignore you because you keep on calling me a troll, and i don't like honest people
21:47:04 <elliott> i forget, is trwbw the bad one or the good one
21:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I am going to ignore you because you are fairly English.
21:47:22 <oklopol> elliott: i don't know because i don't know who the other one you mean is
21:47:27 <cheater99> trwbw is the bad one and good one at the same time
21:47:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: But I'm a Jew! A filthy, filthy Semite!
21:47:40 <elliott> i'm just asking whether he's bad or good
21:47:42 <oklopol> trwbw is a very special person
21:47:52 <zzo38> cheater99: O, yes, you prefer cheating, isn't it? Well, I want you to please stop cheating. (I will not force you to stop, or put you on ignore, though.)
21:48:05 -!- elliott has changed nick to coprophiliac.
21:48:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, no amount of Jewishness can compensate for being English!
21:48:30 <cheater99> zzo38: i will put you on ignore because you refuse to put me on ignore. i will unignore you just as soon as i find out you have ignored me.
21:49:10 <oklopol> coprophiliac: way to build on linking that scat porn thing
21:49:32 <cheater99> oklopol: i will ignore you because i will ignore you
21:49:56 -!- coprophiliac has changed nick to tarski.
21:50:02 <oklopol> so could everyone here give me their addresses in pm
21:50:03 -!- tarski has changed nick to elliott.
21:50:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to banach.
21:50:11 <elliott> oklopol: what kind of addresses
21:50:26 <oklopol> yours i have already so i don't see why i need to answer
21:50:45 -!- banach has changed nick to sierpinski.
21:50:50 <cheater99> why do you want my address now oklopololopol
21:51:20 <oklopol> cheater99: not part of the deal
21:51:31 <cheater99> oklopol: well it's either this or no deal
21:51:40 <cheater99> oklopol: are you really in finland btw?
21:52:22 <cheater99> just in case you have nowhere to send out anthrax?
21:52:51 <oklopol> just in case i'm in the neighborhood and want human company, ofc
21:53:05 <j-invariant> elliott: that shouldn't be too hard to fix, they do that on purpose to weed out 'posers'
21:53:18 <zzo38> OK fine I put cheater99 on ignore......
21:53:25 <elliott> <zzo38> OK fine I put cheater99 on ignore......
21:54:34 <sierpinski> I'm going to put j-invariant on my watchlist for ignoring for suspected Englishness.
21:54:55 <oklopol> i was given no addresses :\
21:54:59 -!- sierpinski has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:55:29 <zzo38> Because they said so........
21:57:14 <oklopol> what's wrong with having an oklo ring your doorbell
21:58:57 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:11 <oklopol> cheater99: i'm really in finland
21:59:38 <cheater99> can someone tell zzo38 to unignore me now?
22:00:03 <zzo38> Now I don't want to filter it anymore.
22:00:04 <oklopol> cheater99: but won't you then ignore him?
22:01:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: and why do you ignore the English?
22:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, because otherwise I am not allowed to live in Scotland without a visa.
22:01:58 <cheater99> oklopol: no, this was a one-time event
22:02:08 <zzo38> I looked at the log file, and I realized that I switched off the filter at the time which they told them to tell me to stop, it is coincidence, though, that it happened at the same time.
22:02:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, scotland is better at everything but football, and I don't care about football
22:02:31 <ais523> so why don't you just look down on us intead?
22:03:00 <ais523> cheater99: it also has a sane education system and a sane legal system
22:03:06 <ais523> which is possibly more important
22:03:52 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: really? that surprises me
22:04:11 <ais523> unless the stereotypes about scots and healthy eating are actually true, which would surprise me even more
22:04:15 <ais523> I tend not to believe in stereotypes
22:04:36 <ais523> and although I know you invented the deep-fried mars bar, I thought that was just for selling to tourists
22:04:58 <ais523> hmm, wait, are we in an antiflamewar?
22:05:05 <ais523> I'd better go home before it gets even worse
22:05:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I should point out at this point that I am not very Scottish at all.
22:14:12 <fizzie> okoploop: My address is too easy to find that I'd bother distribatibuting it, but don't you already approximately know?
22:16:04 <oklopol> i know which town you live in
22:16:17 <oklopol> but yeah i know where to find you
22:16:31 <oklopol> and i have plans for a few others as well
22:17:08 <cheater99> oklopol: is it true that children aged 11 drink vodka in finland by the glass
22:17:32 <Phantom_Hoover> "Crazed student kidnaps 4, uses them for insane experiment."
22:18:00 <oklopol> i remember we drank one glass of vodka each when i was 10 or something, with a friend, but i didn't start drinking until i was like 15
22:18:29 <fizzie> They do seem to start younger (12?) nowadays, though.
22:18:32 <oklopol> but some 11yo's certainly drink a lot, i think they do in every country
22:18:49 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sNge0Ywz-M
22:19:35 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka_belt ← I did not know that was a term.
22:20:35 <oklopol> so umm, i think my idea works
22:20:57 <oklopol> for the problem i've been trying to solve
22:21:13 <oklopol> now i can't continue thinking about it because i'm so excited
22:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Creepers exploding on the data bus would be a novel excuse for computer failure.
22:22:37 <fizzie> "Creepers on the Data Bus", yet another band name.
22:22:55 <fizzie> Or a really weird euphemism.
22:23:07 <fizzie> "Sorry, I can't come today; I've got the creepers on my data bus, if you know what I mean."
22:23:10 <oklopol> i'd like to creep on HER data bus
22:23:22 <quintopia> creepers on the data bus is my meat loaf cover band
22:24:26 -!- elliott has joined.
22:26:35 <elliott> Success enough. Tweaking things can come later.
22:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, creepers on the data bus: the best excuse for computer failure ever?
22:26:42 <elliott> Touchpad isn't working perfectly but I can refine it gradually.
22:27:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I've already tried "I wrote it on a flash drive, then I dropped it and the partition table fell out!"
22:28:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Bring in a melted-in-the-oven floppy, and then just say "well *now* I know why they call them floppies!"
22:29:05 <elliott> "I have erectile dysfunction... but hey, at least I know why they call them floppies now!"
22:36:06 * Sgeo goes to play EteRNA
22:37:45 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:38:57 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please tell me that's a game in which you play as a cell.
22:40:57 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:41:09 -!- elliott has joined.
22:41:29 <Sgeo> It's a game where you try to design RNA molecules
22:42:01 <oklopol> wouldn't this cooperative action game be great where you have a bunch of people that are a cellular automaton, and everyone must behave according to the local rule, or CHAOS ENSUES
22:42:23 <oklopol> or single-player adventure mode
22:43:01 <Ilari> Lagerholm estimate is in single digit number of days...
22:43:18 <oklopol> our cellular automata course started
22:43:53 <oklopol> sofar we've done some basic cantor topology stuff, proved a few things about neighborhoods, and looked at golly simulations for hours
22:44:04 <Ilari> 3M allocations from China marked as new (less than 5 days ago).
22:45:13 <oklopol> did you know cellular automata look really pretty when you run them? this was news to me, i just knew their theory was pretty
22:45:40 <Ilari> APNIC: 2.39 /8s in RIR Pool
22:46:14 <oklopol> i read wolfram's book once but he didn't mention they look pretty when run
22:46:26 <oklopol> he just said they look really IMPORTANT and FUNDAMENTAL
22:46:38 <Ilari> There is still ~20 day spread between the Lagerhom and Houston estimates (due to differing thresholds)...
22:46:40 <oklopol> j-invariant: one of the names of the product topology of Z
22:46:56 <oklopol> because it's topologically equivalent to cantor sets
22:47:49 <oklopol> i can try, but i'll need to come up with a concrete example
22:48:12 <Ilari> Basically, it is all up to APNIC on when IANA pool is going to deplete...
22:48:18 <oklopol> so say all finite patterns have a preimage, then "by compactness", all configurations have a preimage
22:48:23 <oklopol> an application of topology right there
22:48:42 <oklopol> because it's S^Z is a compact space, and finite patterns can be made converge into your configuration
22:49:34 <oklopol> so preimages of them have a converging subsequence (by compactness) that converges to an X such that X has to have that limit configuration as its image
22:49:34 <elliott> i wish my trackpad wouldn't freeze up if i move it for too long
22:49:40 <elliott> until i move away for a second and restart moving
22:49:48 <oklopol> did you follow that? i can do it more clearly
22:52:15 <oklopol> i'll try to improvise: let G be a CA function with a quiescent state q such that G(q, ..., q) = q, such that for all "finite configurations" c there is a c' such that G(c') = c, where finite configuration = finitely many non-quiescents
22:53:14 <oklopol> now, consider an arbitrary configuration, also called c for some reason, take a sequence of finite configurations c_i converging to it (why can i do this?), and for each of them a preimage c'_i
22:53:40 <oklopol> then, take a converging subsequence of c'_i
22:54:18 <oklopol> call that say (d_i), we still know G(d_i) converges to c
22:54:29 <oklopol> because G(d_i) is a subsequence of c_i
22:54:50 <oklopol> now, because d_i converges, also G(d_i) converges, because G is continuous
22:55:30 <oklopol> but we know limits commute with continuous functions, so c = lim G(d_i) = G(lim d_i)
22:55:45 <oklopol> therefore, the limit of the d_i is a preimage of c
22:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way the channel can segue into advanced mathematics in a matter of seconds.
22:56:55 <Ilari> Last time APNIC allocated at something like 2.1 or 2.2 /8s, which is about 0.2 to 0.3 /8s left...
22:56:58 <oklopol> got it? this illustrates the techniques, but in this case you could just open up the meanings of the topological terms, since there's so little of them used
22:57:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:57:11 <oklopol> that wasn't very advanced :D
22:57:12 <Ilari> In number of addresses, that's about 4 million.
22:57:34 <elliott> oklopol: it had limits and ' in it
22:57:47 <oklopol> j-invariant: did you know CA are exactly the shift-commuting continuous functions from S^Z to S^Z?
22:58:16 <oklopol> shift turns configuration x into its left-shifted image, as you might have guessed
22:58:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao.).
22:58:39 <oklopol> and shift commuting is of course that it doesn't matter whether you apply the function before or after the shift
22:58:40 <Ilari> 4 million... And we are down 3 million in last 5 days...
22:59:19 <Sgeo> Who is using all these IPs?
22:59:47 <oklopol> j-invariant: that's actually a sort of trivial thing, in this symposiom I TALKED IN, there was this presentation where they basically just extracted that from some basic category theory for a much larger class of things than just CA, without really doing much
22:59:57 <oklopol> but it's a lot of fun, and that's the reason topology is useful
23:00:19 <oklopol> for instance, if a CA is reversible, then its inverse is also a CA function
23:00:29 <oklopol> how does that follow from topology and that characterization?
23:00:52 <oklopol> erm, is asking questions annoying btw, it seems i've started doing that :D
23:01:23 <oklopol> it's basically a nicer form of "obviously"
23:02:52 <Ilari> If APNIC uses 2.2 as alloc threshold this time, that would likely mean exhaustion next week.
23:03:40 <Ilari> The reserves holding this month seem rather unlikely...
23:04:12 <pikhq> As it was last month, it's *all* a matter of when APNIC feels like allocating.
23:04:26 <pikhq> Could easily happen right now.
23:05:06 <oklopol> j-invariant: answer, since you didn't answer my first question either: S^Z is a compact space, so the inverse of a continuous bijection is continuous (basic topological result), and shift commuting should be obvious
23:05:12 <elliott> Ilari: question, do APNIC _know_ what doing that will result in? :D
23:05:54 <oklopol> S^Z being compact is a fun exercise if you haven't played with this stuff
23:06:25 <oklopol> sorry about that, i forget to mention things
23:06:34 <pikhq> elliott: They are all *very* well aware that IPv4 depletion happens insanely soon.
23:06:49 <elliott> pikhq: so is it possible that APNIC will hold back just to shut up doomsday prophets? :D
23:07:07 <pikhq> elliott: If they "hold back", we *might* get another month out of IPv4.
23:07:22 <elliott> pikhq: yeah, but would _you_ give the order "MAKE THE ALLOCATION!"?
23:07:30 <Sgeo> Vodka looks interesting
23:07:53 <Sgeo> How long can APNIC hold out for?
23:08:09 <Sgeo> Vodka looks dead
23:08:35 <pikhq> And not worth discussing.
23:09:11 <pikhq> We've likely got a bit over a year untiil *every* RIR is out...
23:09:23 <elliott> what Sgeo is trying to say is, he INGESTED the vodka
23:09:54 <Ilari> It is more like they already have been holding back for at least a month...
23:11:16 <Ilari> And if the scary allocation rates shown on December continue after new year's, the extra address pool is going to deplete in no time (forcing allocation).
23:11:54 <Ilari> Waiting a month, their RIR pool would run SERIOUSLY low.
23:11:54 <j-invariant> is there a site to host a PDF, like imgur?
23:11:54 <oklopol> j-invariant: did you lost interest, i was hoping i could lecture about this all night :D
23:12:12 <j-invariant> oklopol: I am interested in it but I would like to start at the beginning
23:12:28 <elliott> j-invariant: filebin.ca throws anything you throw at it ... when it's up
23:12:43 <elliott> j-invariant: foobin can of course do pdfs... but you need a server, and also me to have written it
23:14:06 <oklopol> j-invariant: we are very close to the beginning, if you're fluent in topology; but i suppose that's not necessarily the case
23:15:37 <oklopol> basically: 1. S^Z is compact (special case of tychonoff) 2. CA are the continuous and shift-commuting functions 3. examples of using these ideas in proofs; i started at 3
23:16:24 <j-invariant> oklopol: I know the definitions of topology but not the theorems like tychonoff. I can learn it another time though.
23:17:26 <oklopol> j-invariant: i was joking about lecturing all night, don't worry
23:18:14 <oklopol> erm, would you like a lecture?
23:18:33 <oklopol> no one EVER wants a lecture!
23:19:13 <elliott> Sgeo: so have you given up on ur again
23:19:17 <oklopol> i can't prove tychonoff. that's crazy shit. i can prove S^Z compact directly though. i think
23:20:30 <oklopol> it's easy if we already know that CA characterization, but hmmhmm
23:20:40 <oklopol> maybe my numbering was wrong!
23:20:52 <oklopol> i haven't actually had to implement this theory
23:20:59 <oklopol> i've just read other people's code
23:21:10 <Ilari> Hmm... About 1 billion endpoint devices and about 625 trillion IPv6 subnetworks allocated...
23:21:33 <oklopol> okay so first of all we should probably start with S^Z being metrizable
23:21:55 <oklopol> that is, you can implement the topology with a metric
23:23:04 <oklopol> one such metric d is defined as follows: if x and y are in S^Z, d(x, y)= 2^{-n} for the smallest n such that x_n != y_n or x_{-n} != y_{-n}
23:23:26 <oklopol> do you know what the product topology on S^Z is?
23:24:12 <Ilari> Not exactly what I would call efficient use of address space...
23:25:18 <oklopol> it has S^\{i : i < j\} x {s} x S^\{i : i > j}} as a subbase, that is a subbase is given by sets where one cell has to be s, and others can be anything
23:25:51 <oklopol> where s and j range over S and Z, respectively
23:26:16 <oklopol> this is just the definition of product topology, which we'll make more sense of later, for instance that metrizability should already clarify it a bit
23:27:55 <oklopol> the product topology of topological spaces (T_i) in general has as a subbase, for each i, and each open U \in T_i, U x \product_{j != i} T_j
23:28:10 <oklopol> i just used the fact {s}'s are open sets forming a base for the finite set S
23:28:29 <oklopol> (on which we of course use the discrete topology)
23:28:48 <Sgeo> elliott, I want to see documentation that isn't in bed with the /Web part
23:29:08 <elliott> Sgeo: ah, so you still don't realise that it's a proof-of-concept
23:29:12 <oklopol> so okay now we have the topology of S^Z down, let me try to explain why that d implements it
23:29:28 <elliott> Sgeo: the point of the /web part is to show why the extended type system is helpful.
23:29:44 <oklopol> well first of all, given that d is a metric (i think that's obvious, but should check), it must give us *some* topology on S^Z
23:30:28 <oklopol> so all we have to prove is: 1) if B is an open ball in the topology given by d, then there's an open set in the product topology of S^Z that contains it 2) vice versa
23:30:54 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to __copumpkin__.
23:31:11 <oklopol> now consider such a ball B, it is given by a radius r = 2^{-k}
23:31:35 -!- __copumpkin__ has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:31:43 <oklopol> let's say it's aroung configuration x, now this ball, by the definition of d, contains all y such that x and y agree in the size k neighborhood of the origin
23:31:54 <oklopol> or some off-by-one error there, depending on how exactly i defined d
23:32:10 <oklopol> it doesn't actually matter, but i guess can try to be more precise if you like?
23:32:54 <oklopol> (oh and that neighborhood of the origin isn't a topological neighborhood, just an intuitive idea)
23:33:14 <oklopol> that the cells of y that are at most k steps from cell 0 must agree with those cells of x
23:34:05 <Sgeo> elliott, is Learn You A Haskell considered decent? I pointed someone to it
23:34:08 <Sgeo> [Someone from class]
23:34:10 <oklopol> because otherwise d would be larger, since if x and y disagree in some |j| < |k|, then d(x, y) >= 2^{-j} by definition of d, and that's bigger than 2^{-k}
23:34:28 <oklopol> where i forgot some ||'s around k and j
23:35:04 <oklopol> *d(x, y) >= 2^{-|j|} *that's bigger than 2^{-|k|}
23:35:52 <oklopol> (i'm waiting for some sort of confirmation, since you gave one such without asking)
23:35:57 <j-invariant> oklopol: I think I should write a note on this one
23:36:44 <oklopol> you mean write down the definitions or?
23:41:26 <oklopol> you mean without any input from me? there is really no trick here, so you can certainly do this yourself if you are organized enough not to drown in the details
23:42:17 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:42:52 <oklopol> and remember basic things like intersections of open sets being open...
23:43:25 <elliott> i was just about to say this line:
23:43:37 <elliott> <elliott> hey oklopol teach me some maths <oklopol> okay, so if 2+2=4, then 2+3=5
23:43:48 <elliott> <oklopol> you following? <elliott> eys
23:44:03 <oklopol> hey i once taught you algebra
23:44:10 <elliott> <oklopol> should i prove it to you
23:44:12 <oklopol> but then you were all like NO MORE, PLEASE GO AWAY
23:45:07 <elliott> <oklopol> well, you see, 2=1+1 (i'll explain why later), so it's 1+1+1+1=4
23:45:25 <elliott> <oklopol> we can reduce this partially to peano arithmetic, namely, SSSS0 = 4
23:45:30 <elliott> <elliott> what's peano arithmetic
23:45:36 <elliott> <oklopol> ummmm S is like 1+ and 0 is like 0
23:45:41 <elliott> <elliott> why not just write that
23:46:18 * cheater99 punches oklopol with the power of a thousand punches!
23:46:56 <quintopia> 2+2=4 => 2+3=5 only if 3=S2 and 5=S4. let's define more interesting numbers.
23:47:34 <oklopol> quintopia: i don't get it, how did you prove that implication
23:47:56 <oklopol> you have to somehow remove the 2
23:48:18 <elliott> i like how hilarious this joke at my expense is.
23:48:30 <quintopia> oklopol: it's a false implication. i started with P^~P and went from there
23:48:31 <elliott> <oklopol> okay so let's try something simpler
23:48:40 <elliott> <oklopol> in fact, let's not
23:48:51 <elliott> <oklopol> and i can prove it
23:49:18 <elliott> <oklopol> -1*-1 = -(1*-1), which is -(-1*1), which is (--1)*1, now --1 = 1, so -1*-1 = 1*1 = 1
23:49:40 <elliott> <elliott> yes, but i don't see what this has to do with the hairy ball theorem
23:49:42 <oklopol> quintopia: i see. in a recent exam on ergodic theory, i did a similar thing, and proved everything is an extremal point os any set.
23:50:12 <elliott> oklopol: do you like my cubically valid proof
23:50:54 <oklopol> i don't know how the hairy ball theorem is proved
23:51:02 <oklopol> i couldn't help you with that
23:51:59 <oklopol> yeah the funny thing about that theorem is is sounds like a guy's low-hangers with hair on them
23:52:14 <oklopol> and not just the name, the proof is pretty fucking perverted as well
23:53:06 <quintopia> the hairy ball theorem? you mean the one that says a vector field on a sphere has at least 2 points of discontinuity?
23:53:30 <oklopol> or is it 2? because it sure looks like 1 is possible
23:54:19 <oklopol> quintopia: but yes, that one
23:54:23 <elliott> how can i make a topological database
23:55:13 <elliott> currently my design is just like, based on datalog
23:55:15 <elliott> and where's the fun in that
23:55:20 <oklopol> maybe you could have the discrete topology, i hear that's the BIGGEST topology of al
23:55:33 <oklopol> so clearly you'd get *more* stuff out of it
23:56:05 <elliott> oklopol: can i have databases be like
23:56:32 <oklopol> there need not be discontinuities on tori
23:56:38 <elliott> that's actually the plural
23:56:59 <elliott> tori is just such a silly word you know
23:57:43 <oklopol> i know some basic stuff about tori because addition of a constant vector on a torus is one of the basic examples you do in dynamical systems
23:58:11 <oklopol> and i recently came up with fundamental groups of graphs, although naturally i then found this obvious definition in a paper, stated in a nicer way
23:58:27 <oklopol> tori are the first things you do with fundamental groups
23:58:30 <oklopol> because of the groups they give
23:59:38 <oklopol> maybe i could just go to uni, i feel like this is not a very productive use of my important time