00:00:03 <oklopol> then it might be productive use of his time at least, since CA are so very very sexy
00:00:56 <oklopol> sometimes i just go all CACACACACACACACACACA
00:01:56 <oklopol> j-invariant: actually i probably couldn't lecture all night, since the first nontrivial thing you usually do about CA is a theorem i actually don't know how to prove :D
00:01:59 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:02:02 <oklopol> injectivity => surjectivity
00:02:16 <oklopol> some sort of pigeonhole argument, but i haven't filled in the details, ever
00:02:21 * quintopia everts elliott's spheres without pinching or poking holes
00:03:58 <Sgeo> oklopol, something you do in a fun, cute, happy game
00:04:30 <oklopol> hmm, actually that injectivity => surjectivity thing is really obvious
00:04:34 <elliott> oklopol: you know when you stick your hand up your ass and pull the rest of you outside?
00:05:05 <oklopol> erm, well apart from the fact that if there's a configuration without a preimage, then there's a finite pattern without a preimage, in the obvious sense
00:05:38 <oklopol> yeah it cleanses my body in ways western science just can't
00:06:14 <oklopol> i'm actually going to go now, before i start proving that theorem
00:06:38 <j-invariant> okay oklopol I will aks you about this in future thogu
00:07:27 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
00:07:53 <oklopol> or you can just follow our course! http://users.utu.fi/jkari/ca/
00:08:21 -!- variable has joined.
00:08:30 <oklopol> the lecture notes are pretty good, although topology is used less explicitly, at least in the beginning
00:08:37 <elliott> i should come visit oklopol and embarrass him at his uni
00:08:46 <oklopol> how would you embarrass me?
00:09:14 <elliott> oklopol: so this one time he was on irc ...
00:09:32 <oklopol> many people know my irc nick
00:09:39 <elliott> yes but they don't know where the logs are
00:09:41 <elliott> nor have the patience to read them all
00:10:25 <elliott> j-invariant: but free bird is a terrible song
00:10:56 * quintopia will be in helsinki on jun 10. anyone wanna hang out?
00:11:26 <oklopol> maybe i could come see you and fizzie at the same time
00:12:11 * Sgeo watches another Eversion LP
00:12:16 <cheater99> this happened only today only this once when i unplugged a usb drive and plugged in another one
00:12:25 <oklopol> maybe Deewiant as well, but i feel Deewiant is a superior person to me, so i'm not sure that'd be as much fun.
00:12:38 <cheater99> i do strace sync and it hangs on this:
00:12:40 <Vorpal> <oklopol> "<Vorpal> Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?" <<< good morning <-- when, and context?
00:12:41 <elliott> i always think oh Deewiant won't know anything about this thing
00:12:44 <elliott> and then Deewiant just like
00:12:47 <elliott> with his superior knowledge
00:13:05 <Sgeo> Vorpal, screwed up sleep cycles.
00:13:23 * Sgeo tests Vorpal for alzheimer's
00:13:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I slept for a few hours
00:14:04 <oklopol> Vorpal: i tend to assume people remember the context of every line
00:14:22 <oklopol> irl, i tend to spontaneously continue conversations i've had weeks ago
00:14:28 <Sgeo> elliott, associated with old people, loss of memory, fatal, Pratchett has it.
00:14:34 <Sgeo> Probably spelled incorrectly.
00:14:42 <elliott> Sgeo: what are you talking about?
00:15:02 <Sgeo> elliott, I hate you.
00:15:04 <Vorpal> Sgeo, my grandmother (on my father's side) has it too.
00:15:09 <Sgeo> [Note: Not really]
00:15:10 <elliott> Sgeo: what? what did i say
00:15:16 <oklopol> my grandparents are free from alzheimer's
00:15:24 <oklopol> the punchline is they're dead
00:15:26 <Sgeo> Vorpal, same here [grandmother on father's side]
00:16:02 <elliott> the last discworld novel had better be fucking awesome
00:16:12 <elliott> like if it's shit because of, you know, alzheimer's
00:16:28 <elliott> go out on a bang, asshole.
00:16:29 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:16:37 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you read it?
00:16:46 <oklopol> elliott doesn't read anything
00:17:05 <Vorpal> elliott, now that is not very nice of you
00:17:17 <elliott> his condition is deteriorating and he's already said he's going to commit suicide before it becomes too bad, so i'm just being practical here
00:17:28 <oklopol> elliott: i think he meant the no sympathy thing
00:17:30 <elliott> it's not fair to, like, leave us without tying up all the loose ends and shit with the best novel ever
00:17:36 <quintopia> are there any swedes? i'll be in stockholm that same week
00:17:46 <elliott> quintopia: avoid Vorpal at all costs
00:17:51 <oklopol> both would very much like to meet you
00:17:59 <oklopol> and why do you travel so much?
00:18:03 <elliott> Vorpal probably treats his house like Mount Vorpal
00:18:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'm not even near Stockholm. :P
00:18:24 <oklopol> yeah Vorpal didn't even give me his address
00:18:45 <Vorpal> I have no clue where he lives
00:18:54 <quintopia> i travel as much as i can cuz i love travel
00:18:59 <elliott> doesn't matter, just far away from Vorpal most likely
00:19:00 <Vorpal> oklopol, well to be fair I don't have your either (and don't really want it)
00:19:15 <elliott> oklopol's address is- GAK!
00:19:33 <quintopia> elliott: should be as easy to avoid vorpal as it is to avoid you
00:19:36 <oklopol> Vorpal: i'm not saying you should give it, i'm just saying you're crazily protective of your house
00:19:53 <elliott> quintopia: why avoid me i'm amazing
00:19:57 <elliott> oklopol: sorta like mount vorpal
00:20:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:05 <Vorpal> oklopol, no.. not really
00:20:22 <oklopol> what possible reason could you have for not giving me your address?
00:20:31 <oklopol> i just gave you my address today, you even asked for it
00:20:41 <quintopia> elliott: lay odds on us getting along?
00:20:43 <Vorpal> oklopol, hah not in MC :P
00:20:51 <elliott> quintopia: 0, but it's irrelevant, everyone should meet me
00:21:07 <elliott> oklopol: omg where are you in mc
00:21:09 <oklopol> you didn't answer, what reason could you have?
00:21:11 <elliott> quintopia: yes, so i can kill him
00:21:27 <quintopia> okay, even more reason for me to avoid you :P
00:21:44 <Vorpal> elliott, no I wouldn't
00:21:48 <oklopol> elliott: i just told Vorpal, since he seemed like a likely person not to do anything annoying, while still keeping the place unseen from the majority so i can be in peace
00:21:55 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:21:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I get along great with everyone but you and PH.
00:22:31 <quintopia> i get along with people who like good beer
00:22:38 <elliott> oklopol: i don't do anything annoying intentionally unless it's to Vorpal :)
00:22:40 <quintopia> now it's time for me to go catch a movie
00:22:51 <elliott> oklopol: like this one time, i set deewiant's house on fire
00:23:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, oh nice. *bows*
00:23:04 -!- variable has joined.
00:23:05 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:23:09 <elliott> oklopol: and when i was cleaning it up with lava it made a gigantic cobble monolith
00:23:12 <elliott> oklopol: with lava and water inside
00:23:28 <elliott> oklopol: that happened when i tried to burn the leaves of a tree away
00:23:33 <elliott> the leaves kinda drooped over the house a bit
00:23:36 <oklopol> Vorpal: no i mean the question was for you :D
00:23:36 <oklopol> why would you not me the address!
00:23:48 <Vorpal> oklopol, which question now again?
00:23:55 <elliott> oklopol: but uh if you don't let me cut down trees near yours it'll be totally safe
00:23:56 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:24:17 <Vorpal> oklopol, well I think you accidentally a verb there
00:24:44 <Vorpal> oklopol, don't trust elliott. He can easily mess up without that
00:24:56 <oklopol> but there's no magic if i just let everyone come see it every now and then
00:25:14 <elliott> oklopol: i can just use mcmap + a walking bot to find it :)
00:25:36 <elliott> oklopol: but why don't we optimise it, together
00:26:07 <oklopol> because the point is to play the game, not to obtain goals as fast as possible
00:27:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:27:14 <Vorpal> cheater00, check what 192.168.178.1 does
00:27:32 <cheater00> i'm talking about the hanging sync()
00:27:38 <Vorpal> cheater00, why the sysrq stuff in there
00:27:55 <Vorpal> cheater00, kernel version?
00:28:42 <Vorpal> cheater00, anything between 2.6.30 and 2.6.35 (inclusive) and I suggest you upgrade. I had sync hanging sometimes during that period.
00:28:45 <Vorpal> cheater00, no it isn't
00:28:52 <Vorpal> just middle mouse button
00:29:01 <cheater00> 2.6.32-27-generic #49-Ubuntu SMP Wed Dec 1 23:52:12 UTC 2010 i686 GNU/Linux
00:29:15 <Vorpal> cheater00, upgrade to 2.6.36 kernel
00:29:43 -!- elliott_ has joined.
00:29:43 <oklopol> oh right, i was gonna leave ->
00:29:45 <Vorpal> and hope the fs is journaling
00:29:46 <cheater00> how do i unlock my sync() now without rebooting?
00:29:51 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:29:55 <Vorpal> cheater00, you don't. It is a bug in some kernels
00:31:09 <Vorpal> cheater00, just unmount any other file systems
00:31:20 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:31:21 <Vorpal> and remount the ones that couldn't as read only
00:31:22 <cheater00> Vorpal: is there a bug description for this?
00:31:27 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:31:37 <Vorpal> cheater00, yes, but I don't have a link to it on this machine
00:31:56 <Vorpal> cheater00, no it is on my mail in another computer
00:32:00 <Vorpal> cheater00, also why should I
00:32:19 <cheater00> i'm expressing my belief in your abilities
00:32:38 <cheater00> like, i'm sure zzo or j-invariant wouldn't be able to
00:33:21 <cheater00> well, i know nothing about the linux kernel
00:33:47 <cheater00> so i wouldn't recognize the right sites in google
00:33:59 <Vorpal> cheater00, https://bugzilla.kernel.org/
00:36:50 <Vorpal> cheater00, actually it might not be the same bug. Your backtrace looks a bit shorter than I remember mine
00:36:56 <Vorpal> in which case I can't help much
00:43:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:48:06 <elliott_> stupid generic-mode only supports three-char comment chars
00:53:33 <elliott_> colour ~, {, }, :, ., ; specially
00:53:44 <elliott_> have a bunch of alternate comment delims up to 6 chars
00:53:48 <elliott_> and have an auto-indenter algo
00:56:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:59:56 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
01:00:00 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
01:00:00 -!- elliott has joined.
01:00:43 <elliott> f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/r{$1'\n'$2'('}
01:01:25 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
01:01:59 -!- Ilari has joined.
01:03:44 <elliott> _Ex `find -name \*.[ch]`/{_Op f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/r{$1'\n'$2'('}_Wr _Cl}
01:04:40 * elliott waits for Sgeo to call him crazy
01:07:56 <elliott> ` is an arbitrary char; you could use % there too.
01:08:08 <Sgeo> I am _NOT_ doing all that next time I omit a letter from a line
01:08:22 <elliott> That has nothing to do with omitting a letter from a line.
01:08:34 <elliott> from all C files in the current dir
01:09:51 <Sgeo> And I see it stemming from the grand J tradition of being unreadable
01:09:57 * Sgeo gets shot by elliott
01:10:18 <elliott> it's not even vaguely related to J.
01:10:21 <elliott> it's more similar to ed and teco
01:10:29 <elliott> also, unreadable for you maybe
01:11:58 <elliott> Sgeo: you could easily write that line more readable and clearer. but, err, it's an editor
01:12:00 <elliott> who indents editor commands
01:12:21 <Sgeo> I will be offline for much of Friday
01:12:45 <elliott> _Ex `find -name \*.[ch]` / {
01:12:45 <Sgeo> I'm sure that makes you happy
01:13:25 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't.. understand it, but if I read about it, it would be comprehendible
01:13:40 <elliott> Sgeo: _Ex is just execute shell command obviously
01:13:47 <elliott> / is infix operator for "each in list"
01:13:51 <elliott> _Op = open; _Wr = write; _Cl = close
01:13:54 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder what is failure rate of 6to4 return paths...
01:14:03 <elliott> f/regexp/ is "find (and, implicitly, select) all matching strings"
01:14:09 <elliott> r{ ... } is "replace with result of this block"
01:14:10 <Ilari> (of course, any failure there is stupid...)
01:14:15 <elliott> $1, $2 are your standard regexp () group values
01:14:17 <elliott> and that's all there is to it
01:14:49 <Sgeo> Are f and r always together like that?
01:15:03 <elliott> To delete all instances of foo.
01:15:15 <Sgeo> But r is meaningless without a preceding f?
01:15:18 <elliott> f/foo/ a... would add stuff after all instances of foo.
01:15:28 <elliott> Sgeo: It operates on the current selection. So you could select, e.g., an arbitrary range in the file instead.
01:15:40 <elliott> (Note: You can have N selections at a time; all these operations act on /every/ selection.)
01:15:44 <elliott> This is modelled after sam.
01:15:52 <elliott> (ed's graphical successor)
01:20:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway modelling dream editors on TECO is good enough for Mark Chu-Caroll so it's good enough for me.
01:20:21 <elliott> His is actually implemented though.
01:21:55 <Sgeo> I'm in a bit of a happy mood ight now. Deespite being cold
01:21:58 <elliott> P.S. my f/foo/r/bar/ is MCC's g/foo/,{r'bar'}.
01:22:23 <Sgeo> Well, where MCC's g comes from is obvious, but why the {}?
01:22:43 <elliott> His is more like a foreach.
01:23:06 <elliott> Mine isn't a loop, it just holds multiple selections. Like Schrödinger's editor.
01:23:20 <elliott> A simple loop construct. For each match of the pattern within the current cursor, execute the block. So, for example, to do a global search and replace of foo with bar, * g/foo/,{r'bar'}.
01:23:23 <elliott> Less powerful than my notion.
01:24:29 <elliott> fun ($x) @fact {($x,0)@= ? {1} : { ($x, ($x,1)@-@fact)@* }
01:24:34 <elliott> which would be, uh, slightly uglier in mine.
01:25:34 <Sgeo> S's cat's editor?
01:26:07 <elliott> _Set [_Fact] {_Eq $1 0 ?'1' :{I don't even want to write this bit}}
01:26:19 <elliott> That just sets _Fact to a string naturally.
01:30:45 <elliott> i wonder what i should impl botte in
01:33:18 <elliott> Courtesy of Notch's incompetence, enjoy minecraft.jar for free: http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/minecraft.jar
01:33:32 <elliott> I am fairly sure that anyone can download that URL without supplying the S3 auth token.
01:33:50 <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/lwjgl.jar
01:33:50 <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/jinput.jar
01:33:50 <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/lwjgl_util.jar
01:33:53 <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/linux_natives.jar.lzma
01:46:20 <Sgeo> That's useless without some trick to avoid having to log in, I think
01:49:54 -!- augur has changed nick to SamuelBeckett.
01:50:03 -!- SamuelBeckett has changed nick to augur.
01:51:47 <elliott> Sgeo: just log in with invalid uname/pass
01:51:56 <elliott> Sgeo: or non-purchased one
01:52:04 <elliott> Sgeo: plus, no, that's launcher.jar
01:52:09 <Sgeo> Unless something changed since the al.. ah
01:52:09 <elliott> running minecraft.jar will do everything
01:52:12 <elliott> online servers won't let you in of course
01:52:18 <elliott> since they check with minecraft.net
01:52:20 <elliott> unless they're modded not to
01:52:28 <Sgeo> Is there a windows_natives?
01:54:05 <elliott> those are all free-to-download sorta thing
01:54:09 <elliott> not protected with auth token in download logs
01:54:22 <elliott> Sgeo: in fact if you run classic in-browser i think you will see it being downloaded
01:54:49 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/linux_natives.jar.lzma <--- what, is it that open?
01:55:03 <elliott> Vorpal: linux_natives.jar.lzma is downloaded even by the classic client.
01:55:13 <Vorpal> okay what about minecraft.jar then
01:55:15 <elliott> Vorpal: The thing is that minecraft.jar is downloaded like ?user=ehird&auth=...
01:55:20 <elliott> But I curl -I'd it without those
01:55:26 <elliott> And it had the same file length and 200 OK response :P
01:55:44 <Vorpal> elliott, how did you find this out?
01:55:58 <elliott> Vorpal: It prints out the URLs it downloads when it updates.
01:56:06 <elliott> I just decided to cut off the params and see what happened.
01:56:08 <Vorpal> elliott, oh there is an update out?
01:56:19 <elliott> Yes. And since this is a new OS installation I was running it from cmd line.
01:56:27 <Vorpal> elliott, ah. What is new this time
01:56:43 <Vorpal> elliott, so no actual update out?
01:56:51 <elliott> $ wget http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/minecraft.jar
01:56:52 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~$ diff minecraft.jar .minecraft/bin/minecraft.jar
01:56:52 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~$
01:56:54 <elliott> Notch quality engineering.
01:58:09 <Vorpal> elliott, as notch pointed out, this *is* in fact awesome: http://kotaku.com/5729340/you-can-now-bring-the-real-world-to-minecraft/gallery/
01:58:47 <elliott> I would so tweet that URL but fanbois would yell at me for being an evil pirate scumbag fuckwit, Notch would fix it quickly (probably badly) and likely FROWN UPON me or something, and nobody would win.
01:59:01 <elliott> Instead, I will just link the files to anyone I recommend Minecraft to, to save them the effort of pirating an old version.
01:59:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, I linked that in here yesterday.
01:59:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't see it
01:59:27 <elliott> Well, the original source, not Kotaku blogspam.
01:59:35 <Vorpal> elliott, where is the original source?
01:59:55 <elliott> Good question, Kotaku are very good at hiding that... Gawker scumbags...
02:00:01 <elliott> http://www.orderofevents.com/MineCraft/KinectInfo.htm
02:00:04 <elliott> From the bottom of their sidebar text.
02:00:14 <elliott> Incidentally, the other side is apparently concave.
02:00:32 <elliott> Also, I'd take a photo of something very, very red
02:00:38 <elliott> Except it'd come out as Netherstone...
02:00:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
02:01:19 <Vorpal> is it really netherack?
02:04:14 <Sgeo> There is a windows_natives
02:04:34 <Sgeo> I'm ... hyper with excitement
02:04:44 <elliott> Make sure to rm bin/version :P
02:04:56 <Sgeo> [Note: I don't mean sexually]
02:05:08 <Sgeo> sexadfawefuhawr
02:05:11 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about sex!
02:05:58 <elliott> That bug was weird. But I'm not restarting it until I decide that it won't hurt me.
02:06:04 <elliott> And that service system hurts me.
02:06:43 <Sgeo> elliott, we all know that shutup's source is updog
02:06:54 <elliott> Yes, by the power of rampant speculation.
02:07:40 <Sgeo> I think the bug where updog doesn't distinguish between msgs to the channel and to it hurts you even more
02:08:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> That bug was weird. But I'm not restarting it until I decide that it won't hurt me. <-- what bug
02:08:44 <Sgeo> Vorpal, something to do with sex, apparently
02:08:44 <elliott> It triggered on "sex" when it was not, in fact, intended to.
02:08:55 <elliott> The shutup code is ... kinda tailored for perversity.
02:09:03 <Sgeo> How do you accidentally trigger on sex?
02:09:05 <elliott> I refuse to code bots in any sane kind of manner.
02:09:23 <elliott> Sgeo: By fitting a words-to-include formula to the data of past things you've said.
02:09:24 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> I think the bug where updog doesn't distinguish between msgs to the channel and to it hurts you even more <-- hah
02:09:44 <elliott> i.e., decide what words to filter on, make an algo that goes through all your past said words and uses the frequency to decide which ones to keep,
02:09:49 <elliott> and fit the latter so that it produces the former.
02:09:55 <elliott> I blame you for skewing the results.
02:10:30 <Sgeo> So it will be a while before it triggers on Alluded-To?
02:10:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Katie Alluded-To Female.
02:11:03 <Vorpal> elliott, oh the "she"?
02:11:14 <Vorpal> elliott, nothing wrong with having a girlfriend
02:11:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and what is wrong with that
02:11:35 <elliott> Also, that was invented far before the term girlfriend could be even vaguely applicable.
02:11:44 <oerjan> elliott: somehow i cannot quite recall Sgeo talking that much about sex in the past
02:11:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you should make the bot tell yourself to shut up about @ btw
02:12:03 <elliott> oerjan: did you not read? it's not based on direct frequency
02:12:21 <oerjan> elliott: well obviously or it would trigger on "the" :D
02:12:22 <elliott> oerjan: i rigged the input to the algo so that it came back with almost the word list i wanted
02:12:34 <elliott> because sanity is frankly boring
02:12:53 <Sgeo> It has to be fairly deliberate for fantasies
02:12:56 <oerjan> elliott: maybe you have just algorithmically proved that Sgeo _is_ obsessed with sex, then.
02:13:01 <elliott> I did add some special-casing.
02:13:13 <elliott> oerjan: I am a brilliant visionary and a scientist.
02:13:24 <elliott> I graciously accept this Nobel Prize.
02:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott, but the Nobel Prize is Swedish. How can you not look down on it.
02:14:09 * elliott IRC-bookmarks http://code.google.com/p/gnuemacscolorthemetest/
02:14:15 <elliott> Vorpal: so is olsner and he's p. coo
02:14:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what about Firefly?
02:14:42 <elliott> well sure but he rarely talks or anything
02:14:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also 90% of *everything* sucks
02:14:49 <elliott> beholdmyglory is also swedish i think
02:14:55 <elliott> also, yes, but 90% of the remaining 10% of sweden sucks
02:15:05 <elliott> sweden applies sturgeon's RECURSIVE law
02:15:11 <elliott> basically only epsilon% of sweden doesn't suck
02:15:35 <elliott> sucks = 90% + 90% of 10% + 90% of 10% of 10% + 90% of 10% of 10% of 10% + ...
02:15:53 <Sgeo> elliott, we got the joke
02:15:54 <elliott> wow the emacs themes are ugly
02:16:04 <Sgeo> That's the same thing as 100%
02:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: color-theme-select
02:16:15 <elliott> they're all fairly hideous
02:16:18 <Sgeo> elliott, 99.9999999..... = 100
02:16:22 <elliott> there was this nice one i used once...
02:16:41 <Vorpal> elliott, because I have no color-theme-select
02:16:47 <Vorpal> elliott, what emacs version?
02:16:52 <pikhq> Hmm. 90% of everything that sucks sucks.
02:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal: 23, you may have to require 'color-theme
02:16:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think elliott is using non-standard analysis
02:17:11 <elliott> oerjan: non-standard analysis doesn't exactly give 99.99999... != 100 :D
02:17:47 <elliott> Vorpal: proof that they are all pretty bad: http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-c.html
02:17:55 <elliott> also http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-tex.html http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-el.html
02:18:11 <elliott> since the code is the prettiest
02:18:18 <Sgeo> Arjen looks decent
02:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott, standard emacs <version> are quite okay
02:18:43 <elliott> most of these look like some colourblind kid slapped random colours together without thinking
02:18:55 <Sgeo> Bharadwaj Slate must die
02:19:01 <Sgeo> The rest look decent
02:19:23 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Bharadwaj Slate must die <-- yeargh yesx
02:19:38 <elliott> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html this is the ideal of syntax highlighting
02:19:40 <Vorpal> also blue sea, blue mood
02:19:42 <elliott> i don't like the specific colours he used
02:19:45 <oerjan> bharadwaj sounds indian and everyone knows indians are colorblind
02:19:53 <elliott> i generally prefer dark-on-beigey-esque-stuff
02:20:01 <elliott> his use of colour theory is very relevant
02:20:02 <Sgeo> Seriously. Dear God Why. Late Night.
02:20:03 <elliott> everyone should read that post
02:20:12 <elliott> and the end result is really great, ignoring the absolute colours
02:20:20 <elliott> if you look from a slight distance you can really see the balance it creates
02:20:33 <elliott> if only every language had fans so dedicated to write such colourers for them :)
02:21:26 <elliott> Sgeo: late night is one of the better ones.
02:21:29 <elliott> it's a bit too low contrast
02:21:35 <elliott> but, at least, it isn't a mess of colours
02:22:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html this is the ideal of syntax highlighting <-- extremely interesting
02:23:09 <elliott> yeah i might do that for haskell sometime
02:23:20 <elliott> it's not the actual colours that matter
02:23:25 <elliott> it's the design of the whole thing
02:23:52 <copumpkin> I just don't get why people insist on doing that shit
02:24:02 <elliott> people haven't quite realised that with an lcd, backlight-on on backlight-off = lightbulb
02:24:10 <elliott> with crts it wasn't quite the same
02:25:31 <elliott> copumpkin: can you write a lazy parallel specialiser for me?
02:25:54 <elliott> i wonder if anyone's ever done work on parallel specialisation
02:25:59 * elliott adds it to the phd thesis topic ideas list
02:26:02 <pikhq> elliott: Light-on-dark is bad? Huh?
02:26:22 <elliott> pikhq: The background, and the gaps in the letters, get (almost) no backlight. So they're like looking at, you know, a wall.
02:26:27 <elliott> pikhq: Whereas the letters are lit brightly.
02:26:34 <elliott> pikhq: The result is that they shine like a lightbulb.
02:26:52 <pikhq> elliott: Your backlight level is almost certainly set too high.
02:26:57 <elliott> pikhq: The best is off-black on, e.g., a medium beige: not black-on-lightbulb, but not lightbulb-on-black.
02:27:04 <elliott> pikhq: Sure. But even with a lower backlight you get similar things.
02:27:14 <elliott> The fact is that it's little-tiny-lines-of-light-on-no-light and that just ain't nice.
02:27:39 <Vorpal> <copumpkin> ugh, white on black <-- yeah should use light grey on black
02:27:43 <elliott> pikhq: ALSO considering probably most of the web is dark-on-light, it's horrible because when you move away from light-on-dark, your eyes explode.
02:28:10 <elliott> braille on random sea of braille
02:28:22 <elliott> haha i'm gonna go around trolling blind people
02:28:25 <elliott> "Hey, what does this say?"
02:28:43 <elliott> someone render "has anyone ever been so far as ..." in braille
02:28:49 <elliott> i'm going to put it on a random door in the high street
02:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, your monitor has insufficiently backlight bleeding :P
02:28:58 <pikhq> Black on PLUGE black on a TV.
02:29:00 <elliott> before i get any better ideas
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02:36:38 <Ilari> Haha... NASA produces heavy launcher design and notes "However, to be clear, neither Reference Vehicle Design currently fits the projected budget profiles nor schedule goals outlined in the Authorization Act”. Translation: It will take horridly long and be horridly expensive.
02:37:55 <Ilari> Thanks to those pork-barrel politicans, US manned spaceflight program is effectively dead...
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02:39:12 <pikhq> Yeah; as soon as the shuttle's done, that's it.
02:39:22 <pikhq> No more US manned spaceflight, barring a miracle.
02:39:31 <pikhq> But remember: we're number one!
02:42:37 <Ilari> Basically, only Russia and China are capable of manned launches...
02:44:31 <Sgeo> I thought there was something about private companies?
02:45:18 <Ilari> And manned moon landing... Hasn't been possible for any space agency for 30 years...
02:46:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: There are private companies that would *like* to have a manned launch capacity.
02:48:32 <pikhq> Oh. SpaceX is actually *working on* a manned orbital launch vehicle.
02:50:57 <pikhq> Their rocket has successfully launched a module into orbit.
02:51:12 <Ilari> Saturn V-23(L)... Now that would have been crazy device. 5 uprated F-1s (F-1A)... PLUS 4x2 F-1As in form of 4 extra boosters...
02:54:05 <pikhq> Hmm. It was, in fact, a fully functional cargo vehicle they launched. As soon as NASA is satisfied, it will be launching to the ISS.
02:58:27 <Ilari> And too bad none of the "Nova" rockets was ever built...
03:00:22 <Ilari> Nor any nuclear-powered rockets...
03:01:06 <Ilari> (And I mean more like NERVA than ORION)
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03:04:24 <Gregor> Idonno, something about contracting to private companies to go to space seems enormously appropriate, we just need to somehow convince them that it's worth it ...
03:31:49 <Sgeo> My dad accidentally threw out the melatonin
03:32:00 <Sgeo> I was planning on sleeping tonight
03:43:10 -!- c0pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
03:48:53 <Sgeo> He was cleaning out the medicine closet, and didn't realize the melatonin was mine, I guess
03:53:29 <Sgeo> My dad just gave me a Benadryl
03:57:24 <oerjan> um that's not for sleeping is it
03:57:48 <quintopia> it's not. but it has a pretty pronounced drowsiness side effect
04:29:32 <quintopia> which is a cooler place, kobnhavn or amsterdam?
04:30:40 <oerjan> amsterdam because it actually exists
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04:40:47 <quintopia> copenhagen or denmark man, be straight with me
04:41:55 <oerjan> so the other conversation got a *copenhagen?
05:29:04 <Gregor> It appears that Copenhagen is, but only by 1-2 degrees centigrade.
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05:31:47 <Gregor> oerjan: Well, just going by Wikipedia's relatively limited climate information.
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05:39:42 <pikhq> George Hotz's lawyer has, in SCEA v. George Hotz; Hector Martin; Cantero; Sven Peter; and Does 1 through 100, argued against the claim of jurisdiction and the claim that the defendants are somehow acting in concert.
05:41:29 <pikhq> In short: unless SCEA can demonstrate that a court in California has jurisdiction over people in: California, New Jersey, Sweden, and various unknown countries in Europe, *and* that the defendants are, in fact, a single group, acting in concert, this case ought to be thrown out soon.
05:42:27 <pikhq> As the only reason for the California court to have jurisdiction would be if *all* defendants had agreed to the PSN terms of service, and as George Hotz is in no way acting together with fail0verflow, I expect SCEA to need to file a new case.
05:43:32 <pikhq> His attorney apparently specialises in defending against the RIAA's P2P lawsuits.
05:48:47 <pikhq> Oh, good. Groklaw's following this case.
05:49:09 <pikhq> ... SCO IS STILL GOING‽‽‽
05:59:21 <pikhq> Sony Computer Entertainment of America.
05:59:29 <pikhq> Which, incidentally, is in Delaware.
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06:00:19 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, they're suing in a state that neither they *nor* their defendants are in, soley because the PSN terms say "you agree to be under the jurisdiction of (some court in California)".
06:00:48 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure that clause even *works* outside of the US.
06:01:28 <pikhq> Well. It certainly doesn't *effectively* work outside of the US; after all, a non-American can just tell US courts to fuck off and die in a fire.
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06:01:53 <pikhq> You're not getting fucking extradited for a civil matter.
06:04:02 <variable> pikhq, if they are not in that jurisdiction that clause shouldn't work
06:06:04 <pikhq> variable: Most of the defendants are not in the jurisdiction of *any US court*.
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06:16:21 <copumpkin> has anyone figured out whether they're suing specifically the named people as constituting fail0verflow, or those plus anyone else who happens to be affiliated with f0f?
06:17:56 <pikhq> copumpkin: They are suing *specifically* fail0verflow.
06:18:14 <copumpkin> of which they happen to know four members as named?
06:18:36 <pikhq> Actually, *three* members as named.
06:18:49 <pikhq> George Hotz is not a member of fail0verflow.
06:18:58 <pikhq> And, in fact, has *no* connection to them at all.
06:19:05 <pikhq> Hector Martin; Cantero; Sven Peter.
06:19:16 <copumpkin> hector martin cantero is one person
06:19:38 <pikhq> Bushing is an alias.
06:19:49 <pikhq> They only named real names.
06:20:09 <pikhq> And then listed the aliases for people that will be included in "Does 1 through 100".
06:20:21 <copumpkin> the documents included plenty of mentions of bushing and segher
06:21:01 <pikhq> I don't think there were others; they are merely presuming that there are an unknown number of other members.
06:21:22 <pikhq> With "1 through 100" as shorthand for "however many of them there are".
06:22:53 <copumpkin> well, it'll be interesting to see how this goes
06:24:39 <pikhq> I imagine that Geohotz and Bushing will have trouble from this.
06:25:07 <pikhq> Everyone else can just mock our insane legal system.
06:26:40 <variable> https://s-hphotos-ash1.fbcdn.net/hs796.ash1/168654_482257016845_714011845_6503407_4647200_n.jpg :-}
06:41:00 <oklopol> variable: are you an actual variable, or one of those stupid fp/math that can't actually change their value?
06:53:41 <oerjan> at least some of the time
06:55:04 <variable> oerjan, yes - when I'm about to be shot, mutilated, or otherwise modified I become const
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06:57:34 <zzo38> Do you know if DVItype has been published in a book? Do you know what would be the proper bibliography citation for it?
06:59:49 <zzo38> variable: I am using Vancouver format.
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07:01:13 <zzo38> Do you know the citation for it, in any format?
07:02:02 <variable> zzo38, what is it and I'll try to tell you
07:02:10 <zzo38> Both the book I am citing and the book I am aking are both computer programs.
07:03:20 <zzo38> It is a file on my computer, I do not know if it has ever been published in a book.
07:03:56 <zzo38> I have both the source file and the DVI file.
07:04:10 <variable> zzo38, Last, First. Software Name. Vers. A.b.c. Company Name, 1887. Computer software.
07:05:41 <variable> zzo38, remove "Vers. A.b.c" if you don't know remove the "Company name" AND date published if it wasn't previously published
07:06:05 <zzo38> I do not know if it was published.
07:06:30 <variable> zzo38, then just use Last, First. Software Name.
07:06:44 <zzo38> The program TeX and METAFONT are published (I have the books), but this program DVItype I do not know (it is related to TeX, though)
07:07:52 <variable> zzo38, years ago I wrote a program to automatically generate this for me :-}
07:08:07 <zzo38> I do have "(Version 3.6, December 1995)" and "The preparation of this report was supported in part by the National Science Foundation under grants IST-820 1926 and ..."
07:08:07 <variable> I may rewrite it in Haskell or something - and then publish it
07:08:19 <quintopia> http://www.pa.msu.edu/~aaronson/alitest/aintro.html what are your alignments guys?
07:08:48 <variable> quintopia, D&D alignment test - heh
07:10:02 <zzo38> These things are written on the table of contents page of DVItype
07:10:18 <variable> zzo38, I'm not very familiar with govt. works
07:10:25 <variable> I'd venture to guess that it is
07:10:56 <variable> zzo38, Last, First. Software Name. Vers. 3.6. Computer software.
07:15:40 <variable> quintopia, i only did the first 15 questions: Alignment: True Neutral
07:21:00 <Ilari> Latest figures: APNIC pool is at 39 886 592 IPs. 3.0M-8.0M remain to estimated allocation thresholds...
07:21:06 <zzo38> I have done a few D&D alignment tests, with some different answers on each one, I have gotten NG, CG, and CN.
07:21:36 <zzo38> variable: I think it is not government work. Donald Knuth wrote DVItype.
07:23:17 <zzo38> I also invented some spells and feats and stuff for D&D game.
07:23:46 <variable> zzo38, as in official or homebre?
07:24:08 <zzo38> variable: Just my own spells/feats. But I use the official ones, too.
07:24:09 * Ilari goes ot look how large is APNIC IPv6 pool... :-)
07:25:35 <zzo38> My character is ettercap. My brother's character is human ninja. There are also some NPCs in the party, one of which is otyugh and the others humans.
07:26:28 <zzo38> And almost every one of my actions in the game is strange.
07:27:43 <Ilari> 82 339 124 917 091 486 660 901 601 422 606 336 addresses (99.1% of a block).
07:29:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, wrt mcmap: it could be some off by one error. Even when you edit further down you sometimes get errors. Not corruption like near max alt, but sometimes if you edit just below the top block that edit show up as top on mcmap surface view when it shouldn't
07:30:22 <zzo38> The first page of DVItype is numbered 402, so it seems it might have been a part of some book.
07:30:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, for example I placed a lightstone below an ironblock at altitude 73 and it showed up as a lightstone on mcmap. However it is not reliably reproducible, even in that one spot. Things like that happen every now and then. But far from always.
07:32:14 <zzo38> I have read that it is not allowed to place something in the public domain. But does it apply in Canada? Is it allowed in Canada to make something public domain?
07:32:52 <zzo38> And why is it disallowed?
07:37:39 <Ilari> The reason why public domain might be disallowed is possibility of coercion...
07:39:15 <zzo38> Ilari: Do you have example?
07:48:50 <zzo38> I got algorithm to make plurals working, but can you check to see if there are omissions or anything else wrong with my file?
07:54:32 <variable> most countries follow the Berne convention
07:55:13 <variable> which basically states: "author gets all the rights except if he gives them away (and a bit of fair use like things)
07:56:02 <variable> the closest one could get to placing something in the public domain is by providing an irrevocable, transferable, license to everyone
07:56:27 <variable> the "public domain" is made up by some countries which states that certain types of things don't have a copyright owner
07:56:46 <variable> IE the federal government in the US, and works over X years from the author's death
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08:01:56 <zzo38> Can I make something in the public domain by dictating the US government to write it down exactly as I said?
08:02:37 <zzo38> (Of course this is completely impractical, I am asking if it is possible/legal)
08:03:07 <fizzie> I think that depends whether you use legal means for "incentivizing" them to write what you say.
08:03:57 <fizzie> I believe you can sneak things into public domain by getting them recorded as part of some court proceedings.
08:04:16 <zzo38> Is it legal for someone to sue themself?
08:04:41 <fizzie> Not sure, but you could have an accomplice there.
08:05:04 <zzo38> Can I get something into the public domain by suing myself over the document I wish to make public domain?
08:07:12 <zzo38> I have read somewhere that the DMCA allows Sony to sue themself, I do not know whether or not this is true.
08:12:51 <fizzie> "While the copyright of the play Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J. M. Barrie has expired in the United Kingdom, it was granted a special exception under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (Schedule 6)[33] that requires royalties to be paid for performances within the UK, so long as Great Ormond Street Hospital (to whom Barrie gave the rights) continues to exist."
08:12:54 <fizzie> Isn't that a bit strange?
08:13:49 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it is a bit strange, I think.
08:16:32 <variable> Disney has a perpetual copyright on mickey mouse IIRC
08:16:38 <variable> zzo38, suing oneself is not possible
08:17:05 <zzo38> variable: Do you know if in Canada, it is permitted to put something into public domain?
08:17:35 <variable> zzo38, I would highly doubt it - but I know little of Canadian law
08:17:35 <fizzie> I think Disney's copyright is just a "de-facto" seems-to-be-extended-all-the-time thing, not something that's actually perpetual.
08:17:48 <variable> I am also not a lawyer and I do not give legal advice
08:18:25 <fizzie> But are you a doctor and can the above be construed as medical advice?
08:18:29 <variable> fizzie, strictly speaking its some insanely long term that congress keeps on extending (there was a supreme court case about the constitutionality of this) but its close to perpetual
08:18:46 <variable> (its sad that I feel I must answer the question seriously)
08:18:57 <zzo38> variable: I am not expecting proper legal advice.
08:19:07 <zzo38> Nor am I expecting proper medical advice.
08:19:34 <variable> zzo38, public domain is basically things that fall outside of copyright law
08:19:52 <variable> in most countries its not really possible to put something in PD
08:21:15 <fizzie> You could just die and then wait a century or so.
08:22:09 <fizzie> I guess if you actually wait a full century, you don't even need to die.
08:22:25 <variable> fizzie, no - its 100 yrs after author death
08:22:32 <fizzie> "95 years from publication or 120 years from creation whichever is shorter (anonymous works, pseudonymous works, or works made for hire, published since 1978)"
08:22:43 <fizzie> "Life + 70 years (works published since 1978 or unpublished works)"
08:22:49 <fizzie> Says Wikipedia's US table.
08:22:58 <fizzie> Yes, but if you publish it anonymously.
08:23:10 <variable> zzo38, actually - after doing some research (read: google) there is some common law about suing yourself
08:24:08 <zzo38> What if I add the following text to the beginning of the document: "This license is secret and its author is not permitted to read/use it, unless it is part of a court case in which case it is public domain. The license conditions end here; what follows is an appendix." and then somehow sue myself over it........
08:24:30 <variable> fizzie, one of my get rich slow schemes is to publish different works under 10 different names forecasting different financial outcomes in a few yrs. Then when one comes true reveal myself as the author of that work and write a new one that I sell for lots of money
08:24:53 <variable> zzo38, you could try to go to congress and get it read there
08:25:09 <variable> (and even if it were criminal you couldn't get prosecuted over it)
08:25:15 <fizzie> France in the table: "Life + 70 years [...] + 30 years for all works if the author died on active service".
08:26:31 <zzo38> variable: Why couldn't get prosecuted over it?
08:27:19 <zzo38> Does the DMCA actually permit Sony to sue themself or is that something that someone else made up?
08:28:01 <fizzie> "Sony" is composed of so many parts that I'm sure they could find some separate corporations to interfight.
08:30:47 <variable> zzo38, one can't be prosecuted for something said/done in the course of a Congressional hearing IIRC
08:30:54 <variable> I'm looking for the exact provision now
08:31:44 <variable> zzo38, "They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place."
08:32:08 <variable> but that only applies to members
08:34:22 <variable> zzo38, the idea was to prevent the president from having legislative members arrested before voting
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08:39:44 <zzo38> Project Gutenberg says you can release your own work into public domain by writing a note; this contradicts the description about the WTFPL. And anyways this is for United States. I live in Canada.
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09:02:42 <zzo38> I have idea, I have thought to make a program that converts a ESC/P file for Epson dot-matrix printers into DVI format.
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09:10:30 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-01-13/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+DilbertDailyStrip+(Dilbert+Daily+Strip)&Page=2
09:10:39 <Sgeo> There's a human spammer?
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11:31:01 <Vorpal> <zzo38> I have idea, I have thought to make a program that converts a ESC/P file for Epson dot-matrix printers into DVI format. <-- I wonder why this would ever be useful
11:34:23 <fizzie> Perhaps he has a large amount of documentation or something in the form of ESC/P files.
11:36:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure what my dot-matrix printer used; it might have been partially compatible, but not very. I do have some conversion programs from raster graphics to that, for image-printing.
11:37:41 <fizzie> No, just something you can run a .png through and then 'lp' it out a raw printcap entry or something. I think this was pre-CUPS.
11:38:34 <fizzie> Speaking of which, I looked at the C1x static asserts; the format is _Static_assert(constant-expression, string-literal), and the semantics are that if constant-expression equals zero, "the implementation shall produce a diagnostic message that includes the text of the string literal". And <assert.h> defines static_assert to _Static_assert.
11:38:38 <fizzie> Rather straight-forward.
11:39:28 <Vorpal> but rather more limited than D's static asserts then?
11:39:40 <fizzie> I don't know what those are like.
11:40:27 <Vorpal> I seem to remember they looked rather interesting when reading ccbi2 source
11:40:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw where did you find the c1x draft?
11:41:49 <fizzie> Well, it's at http://www.open-std.org/Jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1547.pdf -- don't quite remember where I got the link, it's not directly on the WG14 front page, but maybe it's in there deeper somewhere.
11:42:07 <fizzie> ISO working group web pages tend to be a bit unstructured and confusing.
11:42:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, open-std? Isn't that POSIX related?
11:43:11 <fizzie> They have quite a lot of stuff there.
11:43:18 <fizzie> Including the posix workin group page.
11:43:35 <Vorpal> "WG11 - Binding Techniques" I wonder what on earth that is
11:44:05 <Vorpal> also the phrase "Programming languages and, operating systems" looks terribly strange to me. The comma specifically.
11:44:08 <fizzie> "how to make specifications independent of programming languages, and then apply these specifications to the programming languages" -- sounds a bit SWIGgy.
11:44:40 <fizzie> I guess it's not, really.
11:45:06 <Vorpal> hm? that comma was much less out of place to me
11:45:19 <Vorpal> (if that was what you were trying to imply)
11:45:32 <fizzie> No, I just meant the binding stuff is not very SWIGgy after all.
11:45:45 <fizzie> The C standard includes some sort of a "binding" to their "language-independent math" thing.
11:47:43 <fizzie> Oh, and C1x thread functions have a naming scheme that's a bit on the ugly side; all thread functions/macros/whatever are thrd_foo, mutexes mtx_foo, and condition-variable stuff cnd_foo.
11:48:06 <fizzie> Purely as a guess I think they didn't want to have too many namespace conflicts for people who already were using the full words.
11:48:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, uh do they still have the 8 letter identifier thingy?
11:48:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, if so I guess that is why
11:48:48 <fizzie> The names themselves are definitely longer than that, and wasn't it already 31 letters also for external names?
11:49:03 <Vorpal> it used to be 8 somewhere
11:49:44 <fizzie> "31 significant initial characters in an external identifier"
11:49:51 <fizzie> It was in C90, at least, IIRC.
11:50:48 <fizzie> Though re those 31, "each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 0000FFFF or less is considered 6 characters, each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 00010000 or more is considered 10 characters, and each extended source character is considered the same number of characters as the corresponding universal character name, if any"
11:51:39 <Vorpal> why those specific boundaries
11:51:41 <fizzie> So if you use only Unicode characters outside the BMP (say you're programming in old turkic), you're only guaranteed three significant characters.
11:52:06 <fizzie> Sounds like they just thought "okay, no-one can be weird enough to use multibyte encodings longer than *this*, can they?"
11:52:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, it isn't like any mainstream implementation actually cuts off at that 31 char limit anyway
11:53:26 <fizzie> Well, no. (Also you're guaranteed 63 characters in internal identifiers, and there even Unicode chars count as just one.)
11:53:58 <Vorpal> again I doubt any compiler actually cuts off there
11:55:25 <fizzie> C1x also adds u8"foo" UTF-8 string literals, and u"foo" / U"foo" Unicode wide-character (of type char16_t / char32_t, corresponding to UTF-16 / UTF-32, respectively) string literals, and a <uchar.h> header for conflaburating in-between things.
11:56:31 <fizzie> I've seen people assume that wchar_t numbers correspond to Unicode code points before; it's I guess nice to have something that in actual fact always does.
11:57:52 <fizzie> Well, or at least "always does if __STDC_UTF_16__ / __STDC_UTF_32__ are defined", which you can compile-time test easily.
11:59:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, they don't. iirc they are usually 16 bits
11:59:29 <Vorpal> I have no clue what wchar_t actually corresponds to though
11:59:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure how comfortable-to-use the C1x Unicode support is, since they haven't added anything into the stdio formatted-output functions for that.
12:00:30 <Vorpal> hopefully they will add that
12:01:03 <fizzie> It's going to be somewhat messy if they keep the existing "w-stuff" and then add even more "u-stuff" on top.
12:02:46 <Vorpal> I doubt they would drop the w stuff
12:03:20 <fizzie> Well, no. But they might not go through all that complexity to add in the u-stuff.
12:03:40 <Vorpal> hm the bounds checking stuff looks interesting
12:04:06 <fizzie> Incidentally, these GCC-4.4 <stddef.h> parts that pertain to wchar_t are a bit amusing: http://p.zem.fi/wchar
12:05:01 <fizzie> It's like someone's trying to figure out how many ways you can put "wchar" and "t" together for a header-inclusion guard macro name.
12:05:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, is this from somewhere in bits/ ?
12:06:23 <fizzie> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4/include/stddef.h in my machine.
12:06:32 <Vorpal> I thought GCC just provided limits.h and stdarg.h
12:06:46 <fizzie> /* Why is this file so hard to maintain properly? In contrast to
12:06:46 <fizzie> the comment above regarding BSD/386 1.1, on FreeBSD for as long
12:06:46 <fizzie> as the symbol has existed, _BSD_RUNE_T_ must not stay defined or
12:06:46 <fizzie> redundant typedefs will occur when stdlib.h is included after this file. */
12:06:51 <fizzie> The writer seems somehow depressed.
12:07:12 <fizzie> (The "comment above" was a bit longish to paste.)
12:08:16 <fizzie> /* In case nobody has defined these types, but we aren't running under
12:08:16 <fizzie> GCC 2.00, make sure that __PTRDIFF_TYPE__, __SIZE_TYPE__, and
12:08:16 <fizzie> __WCHAR_TYPE__ have reasonable values. This can happen if the
12:08:16 <fizzie> parts of GCC is compiled by an older compiler, that actually
12:08:16 <fizzie> include gstddef.h, such as collect2. */
12:08:28 <fizzie> Any time I take a peek inside, I'm surprised that these things actually for the most part do work.
12:09:33 <fizzie> /* snaroff@next.com says the NeXT needs this. */ /* Irix 5.1 needs this. */ /* This avoids lossage on SunOS but only if stdtypes.h comes first. There's no way to win with the other order! Sun lossage. */
12:12:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of lossage?
12:12:18 <fizzie> I don't know, and the writer doesn't specify.
12:13:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, also "stdtypes.h" sounds suspect. I thought the C standard reserved that prefix
12:14:25 <fizzie> On the topic of "perverse systems": apparently there are some Crays on which size_t is a 32-bit type, as are most pointers, with the exception of "void *"s and "char *"s, which are 64-bit types. (This was in the context of how likely stuffing a pointer into a size_t is to break, as opposed to using uintptr_t which is guaranteed to work but of course only if you actually have uintptr_t and proper <stdint.h>.)
12:14:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, the bounds checking stuff seems confusing in c1x
12:15:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about a signed intptr_t?
12:15:31 <fizzie> Well, that too should work, I just wanted to be consistent and use an unsigned type since size_t is one.
12:16:20 <Vorpal> I always found that one highly suspect
12:16:33 <fizzie> It is a bit iffy, yes.
12:16:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway isn't intptr_t/uintptr_t XSI or something? My man page for stdint.h indicates that
12:17:23 <fizzie> They are at least C99 types, though optional.
12:17:33 <fizzie> Since the machine in question simply might not have integers large enough.
12:17:57 <fizzie> (But those Cray boxes do have a 64-bit integer too, it's just that size_t isn't one of them for some interesting reason.)
12:18:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, it constantly amazes me that C didn't end up supporting ternary systems
12:20:08 <fizzie> C1x seems to keep the C99 restriction of "it must be either sign-magnitude, one's-complement or two's-complement, not some sort of freaky weird integer encoding".
12:23:39 <Vorpal> btw, it is interesting how C99 caused POSIX to restrict CHAR_BIT to exactly 8. IIRC with the restrictions C99 introduced and the old restrictions POSIX had on it, the only possible choice was exactly 8
12:28:06 <fizzie> Mhm, right; that seems to follow from the fact that C99 mandates CHAR_BIT >= 8, and since intN_t must be exactly N bits with no padding or fluff, sizeof(int8_t) must always be 1, and POSIX mandates int{8,16,32}_t.
12:28:54 <Vorpal> something like that yes
12:30:15 <Vorpal> hm those bounds checking functions seem rather weak
12:30:41 <Deewiant> Where does it say that intN_t has to take up N bits of space?
12:30:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: "The typedef name intN_t designates a signed integer type with width N , no padding bits, and a two’s complement representation."
12:31:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that C or POSIX?
12:31:24 <fizzie> Well, it was the C1x draft, but I do think it's the same in C99.
12:31:35 <fizzie> (I had that handily open.)
12:32:03 <Vorpal> wait, isn't stdio functions with the _s suffix some sort of silliness that MSVC invented?
12:32:22 <fizzie> The "_s for safe"? Yes, I at least thought those were Microsoft things.
12:32:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, they seem to be in the C1x draft
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12:32:38 <Vorpal> snprintf_s in particular seems utterly silly
12:33:34 <Deewiant> "snprintf_s is equivalent to snprintf, adding run-time constraints that restrict format from being null, n being less than zero and less than RSIZE_MAX."
12:34:14 <Vorpal> RSIZE_MAX... why on earth
12:34:47 <Vorpal> I'm happy with gcc's __attribute__ to warn me about mismatching format strings and null pointers. It works and seems far more useful than that
12:34:52 <Deewiant> "ISO/IEC TR 24731-1 recommends that RSIZE_MAX be defined as the smaller of the size of the largest object supported or (SIZE_MAX >> 1), even if this limit is smaller than the size of some legitimate, but very large, objects."
12:36:00 <Vorpal> oh god, there is gets_s
12:36:27 <Vorpal> but they recommend fgets rather than it
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12:37:23 <Deewiant> gets_s reads lines, fgets reads strings.
12:37:26 <fizzie> It does the bounds-checking, but "maintains a one-to-one relationship between input lines and successful calls to gets_s. Programs that use gets expect such a relationship."
12:37:48 <Vorpal> memcpy_s looks utterly pointless as well
12:37:53 <Sgeo> Why would any program use gets? Isn't that the dangerous function/
12:38:03 <fizzie> Many programs do dangerous things.
12:38:30 <Vorpal> really they should have added strlcpy and strlcat, that would have been way more useful
12:39:21 <fizzie> Well, strcpy_s's buffer-size parameter is at least the sensible one.
12:39:50 <Vorpal> that is indeed an improvement
12:40:22 <fizzie> Also they seem to be reasonably consistently so that there's always the destination buffer and it's size.
12:40:53 <Vorpal> for memcpy it seems utterly pointless however
12:41:35 <fizzie> It's there so that you don't forget to do the check yourself, I guess.
12:41:43 <fizzie> Or to catch it if you do it wrong.
12:42:19 <Vorpal> it seems a lot more annoying to use than gcc's and glibc's stuff.
12:42:30 <Vorpal> and it doesn't even do as much
12:42:45 <Vorpal> no format check for format strings as far as I can see
12:43:06 <Vorpal> memset_s seems utterly stupid
12:43:54 <Deewiant> What's the "gcc's and glibc's stuff" that's equivalent to these
12:45:08 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 does a good job, plus various __attribute__s like nonnull, format, whatever-the-name-was-for-the-one-that-warns-if-you-throw-away-return-value and so on
12:45:44 <Vorpal> the fortify source one is closest to this, and is transparent. I believe Ubuntu has it on at level 1 by default
12:47:11 <Deewiant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags#-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
12:47:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, also for gcc, it can sometimes turn it into a compile time check when optimising
12:47:22 <Vorpal> rather than a runtime check
12:47:50 <Vorpal> this is done with various weird __builtin_foo() functions
12:48:05 <Deewiant> That can be done with the _s functions as well, depending on their implementation.
12:48:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, true, but they aren't done transparently. Requires more work
12:49:11 <Deewiant> No, they require less work of compiler writers. :-P
12:49:41 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and they still won't give you a warning if doing something like printf("Error: %s (%d)\n", 42, "Generic error");
12:49:44 <Deewiant> memcpy_s() { if (I don't like your parameters) { abort() or whatever; } else return memcpy(); }
12:50:06 <fizzie> I'd prefer proper "here we actually know the buffer length" checks over "let's put some stuff behind the buffer and see if it gets overwritten" checks.
12:50:12 <Deewiant> Vorpal: No, but that's again difficult.
12:50:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but a lot more useful
12:50:45 <fizzie> It's also a QOI issue and not something that (well, arguably) should be in a language standard. :p
12:50:48 <Deewiant> I'm not sure I agree: if printf fails it's at least almost always obvious
12:51:02 <Deewiant> If memcpy fails it might just corrupt some unrelated data
12:51:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, the latter is still useful. But that isn't what _FORTIFY_SOURCE does afaik. -fstack-protector does that
12:51:45 <fizzie> If it doesn't do that, I don't see how it could even theoretically check for buffer overflows for a dynamically allocated buffer.
12:52:19 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but what about memset_s then. Most probably the most common use for it is to zero fill a buffer. You pass it a pointer, a buffer length, a value to fill with, and how much to fill
12:52:38 <Vorpal> most of the time people probably use memset to fill an entire buffer
12:52:52 <Vorpal> or at least an entire buffer after an offset (in case of realloc or such)
12:53:16 <Vorpal> in which case the two lengths will equal each other. Are you going to write two different code paths for them?
12:53:35 <fizzie> If you feel yourself writing memset_s(buf, max, 0, max), maybe you could then just consider writing memset(buf, 0, max) in that particular row?
12:53:58 <fizzie> Though I guess then you won't get the null-pointer runtime constraint checks.
12:54:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure. I'm just trying to point out that in general these _s variants seem fairly laughably stupid. Possibly with the exception of strcpy_s.
12:54:46 <Deewiant> So far only memset_s seems a bit silly
12:54:48 <Vorpal> haven't looked at that one *does so*
12:55:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and snprintf_s
12:55:13 <fizzie> gets_s is fine if you really don't feel like bothering to actually handle long lines.
12:55:17 <Deewiant> It's what gets should've been in the first place.
12:56:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay strcat_s seems reasonable
12:56:54 <Deewiant> snprintf_s is another one that just does sensible checks that snprintf should've done, but can't now because of backwards compatibility
12:57:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, the null pointer thing?
12:57:54 <Deewiant> No null target or format string, no %n, no null arguments to %s
12:58:18 <Vorpal> %n shouldn't have been there in the first place
12:58:22 <Deewiant> Not sure what an "encoding error" is for sprintf, that may be sensible as well
12:59:14 <fizzie> From what I can tell, the aim here would be that instead of doing something like assert(buf != NULL); assert(arg != NULL); snprintf(buf, n, "foo: %s", arg); you get a runtime-fail-at-least-sort-of-nicely behaviour with just assert(snprintf_s(buf, n, "foo: %s", arg) >= 0); or some-such. (A bit contrived example, but anyway.)
12:59:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, does the checking depend on NDEBUG?
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12:59:42 <Deewiant> And the "you can't pass buffer sizes that span more than half the address space" seems fairly reasonable too, at least by default
13:00:00 <fizzie> I was meaning an always-on assert here. :p
13:00:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, that depends. Though I doubt anyone will be insane enough to use this on an embedded system anyway
13:00:26 <Vorpal> at least not the tiny ones
13:00:54 <Deewiant> It seems like a good default, but it should be overrideable
13:01:35 <Vorpal> it would be better to add saner strings instead
13:01:53 <Vorpal> pascal style: <length><data>
13:02:52 <Sgeo> Atomo reminds me a little of Factor
13:25:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: The stack-smashing protection seems to still have this old data leak problem too: http://p.zem.fi/memcpy.c
13:40:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, err. What happened there
13:41:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, also uh, doesn't look like a major issue that it reports the new value. Aids in debugging certainly
13:41:49 <fizzie> Those values are my own printfs.
13:42:07 <Vorpal> then what is the data leak?
13:42:36 <fizzie> In the fact that the "you smashed the stack" error message will blindly follow the new overwritten argv[0] value, and print it out.
13:42:50 <fizzie> If this were a suid-something program, you could use that to read out anything in its address space.
13:43:42 <fizzie> Here I've just read out the "SECRET DATA" string which I could pick from the executable, or just read from /proc I guess, but it's more problematical for suid executables that, say, read out /etc/shadow in memory, then after that have a (exploitable) buffer overflow somewhere.
13:45:10 <fizzie> Anyway, it's an old thing, there's at least one mail about it in Apr 2010 on the full-disclosure mailing list; and I guess it's possible it's already fixed, I'm not exactly using the latest tools here at work.
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14:07:28 <cheater99> MY COMPUTER HUNG UP AND I DIDN'T REBOOT IT IMMEDIATELY
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15:08:34 <fizzie> "mkdir: cannot create directory `misc': No space left on device" -- that's always a nice thing to get from the "project work" filesystem.
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15:26:21 <Vorpal> <cheater99> MY COMPUTER HUNG UP AND I DIDN'T REBOOT IT IMMEDIATELY <-- do you have a hardware watchdog?
15:26:26 <fizzie> No, just a 3.7 terabyte NFS share that is full.
15:26:38 <fizzie> They keep talking about implementing quotas, though.
15:26:44 <fizzie> I think home directories already have some.
15:27:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'd like a "hilbert's SSD".
15:27:09 <fizzie> Filesystem blocks quota limit grace files quota limit grace
15:27:10 <fizzie> 2277M 4096M 4096M 21218 4295m 4295m
15:27:18 <fizzie> Yes, there is a home directory quota.
15:27:57 <fizzie> I should probably clean ~ some day, since there should be mostly code, documents and stuff like that in there.
15:29:07 <quintopia> Vorpal: what would you do with it? it's unlikely you'll ever have an infinite amount of data arriving at once.
15:29:43 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes but even if you have a finite amount you will always have space for it
15:30:30 <fizzie> Also you don't ever need to erase data, so the SSD write-cycle-durability thing shouldn't be an issue.
15:30:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, and in the unlikely event that someone gives you a full HilbertFlashCard you can always copy it all to the SSD
15:31:13 <Vorpal> (note: you need a good data bus for this)
15:31:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, except hm you do need to move data, don't you?
15:31:46 <Vorpal> oh wait I guess it remaps that
15:32:09 <fizzie> If you restrict yourself to getting only finite amounts of data, you can always just append.
15:32:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, that seems like a rather arbitrary limitation
15:33:09 <quintopia> yeah, those realistic assumptions always seem so arbitrary
15:35:39 <quintopia> i suspect seek times would get ridiculous if you need to retrieve data at infinity though
15:35:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, they don't have seek times
15:36:34 <quintopia> the time for the address to get mapped to the correct location and the data to return
15:36:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, besides there is no point infinity. Hilbert's hotel iirc deals with potential infinities
15:37:00 <quintopia> there is an infinite amount of wiring needed there and the signal has to travel at the slow slow speed of light
15:37:32 <Gregor> Mail forwarding, don't fail me now.
15:37:39 <quintopia> yes i know, but imagine retrieiving data from the following sequence of addresses: 2,4,8,16 etc.
15:37:39 <Vorpal> quintopia, unless we just keep halving the size forever
15:37:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, then it can fit into a finite space
15:38:01 <quintopia> after a while each successive bit will take enormously long time to arrive
15:38:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, in fact you can do that in two minute. Half it after 1 minute. Half it after another half minute, then 15 seconds, and so on
15:38:29 <Vorpal> then after 2 minutes you fitted it all into an infinitely small disk
15:38:59 <quintopia> infinitely small? you mean infinitely fine-grained resolution?
15:39:18 <quintopia> i suppose that works, but requires some creative manipulation of physics locally
15:39:32 <Vorpal> quintopia, well duh :P
15:40:29 <fizzie> Gregor: I feel tempted to shout "Don't open that box!"
15:40:41 <Gregor> fizzie: Yeah, it's a poor name :P
15:41:21 <Gregor> Linux-based game system.
15:41:32 <Vorpal> how many games does it have?
15:41:45 <Gregor> Zero, or thousands if you include emulators X-P
15:42:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, can it run bsnes? I bet pikhq will ask you about this anyway
15:42:17 <Vorpal> so I'm saving time by asking you now
15:42:24 <Gregor> Probably, it can emulate a PSX ...
15:42:35 <Gregor> But if you really want to run bsnes, you're a durp :P
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15:42:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm that sounds rather impressive. What are the specs? And what about battery life
15:42:55 <Gregor> Asking what a durp is is such a durp question to ask.
15:43:00 <quintopia> oh is it like those super-awesome handheld gaming things they have on thinkgeek for hundreds of dollars?
15:43:17 <Gregor> http://openpandora.org/
15:43:20 <Vorpal> using google's "define:" I get "No definitions were found for durp."
15:44:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, looks nice. Was it made with reprap? ;)
15:46:18 <Vorpal> quintopia, except a keyboard large enough to use
15:46:23 <Gregor> quintopia: That's 'cuz it's expensive :P
15:46:48 <quintopia> Vorpal: it's a fucking handheld gaming platform. wtf do you want a keyboard for?
15:46:49 <fizzie> Specwise the hardware is really close to my phone. (Which is also 600 MHz Cortex-A8 ARM + TI 64x DSP + PowerVR SGX530 GPU with a 800x480 touchscreen. Of course the phone's keyboard is really not-for-gaming.)
15:47:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm. chatting in minecraft or something ;)
15:48:04 <quintopia> Vorpal: work on your texting speed. you can type surprisingly fast with your thumbs with practice
15:48:44 <Vorpal> quintopia, depends. Not like I text very often.
15:49:01 <Vorpal> 4-5 SMS / week? Something like that
15:49:23 <Vorpal> quintopia, also I fail to see how it would help with that gaming console
15:49:25 <quintopia> i irc on my phone. i'm not as fast as keyboard yet, but working on it
15:49:34 <Vorpal> a keypad is very different from a qwerty layout
15:49:41 <quintopia> well, you have to practice on the gaming console obviously
15:49:59 <quintopia> ohhhhhhhhhhh you don't have a qwerty keyboard on your phone
15:50:16 <Vorpal> quintopia, I use phones until they break :P
15:51:10 <Vorpal> quintopia, besides if I can't use it with gloves on it isn't worth the money. And resistive touchscreens seem to be getting rare.
15:51:57 <quintopia> yes, you live in a place where you can't get by with thin gloves, don't you
15:52:18 <Vorpal> quintopia, indeed. I use very thick ones when it is -20 C outside and blowing hard. And snowing.
15:52:27 <quintopia> in any case, my qwerty keyboard has actual buttons
15:52:32 <Vorpal> That happened a few weeks ago. Had to use phone to check bus schedule
15:52:42 <fizzie> The physical keyboards don't tend to be large enough for gloveing either.
15:52:55 <fizzie> I tend to just poke at the on-screen keyboard if it's too cold out there.
15:52:57 <quintopia> fizzie: agreed. best to have fingerless mittens in that case
15:53:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed. You can manage keypad if you are careful
15:53:10 <Vorpal> quintopia, that is not really an option around here
15:53:35 <quintopia> Vorpal: it is an option anywhere! fingerless mittens are the greatest thing ever!
15:53:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Don't get an iPhone, they blow up at <0 degrees C and Apple's warranty only covers use in 0-35 degrees C. (There was a case in Norway.)
15:53:54 <quintopia> perfect finger coverage when you need it, no hassles when you don't!
15:53:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wouldn't get one anyway
15:54:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, yeah and maemo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> droid
15:54:58 <fizzie> Maemo's pretty much dead now. :p
15:55:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well meego then?
15:55:10 <fizzie> Will see how it goes with MeeGo, right.
15:56:46 <fizzie> They're setting up some sort of a "community firmware update" repository thing for Maemo, since you can't (easily) update packages that are classified as "system" packages from the normal community repositories, and there are quite a few bugfix-patches existing for the system packages too.
15:56:47 <quintopia> why is meego better than droid? what carriers does it work with?
15:57:14 <fizzie> The whole "what carriers does it work with?" thing is something I just never get. Around here the iPhone is the only thing that is ever carrier-locked.
15:57:14 <Vorpal> quintopia, how would the carrier depend on the phone OS?
15:57:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, that makes no sense
15:57:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: Welcome to the US.
15:57:59 <Vorpal> you buy a phone. Then you buy a SIM card. Then you combine the two.
15:58:01 <Gregor> Also, stop calling it "droid"
15:58:07 <quintopia> Vorpal: i judge a phone by the hardware first, the carrier second, and the OS third
15:58:23 <Vorpal> quintopia, well we have no clue since things are not generally carrier locked around here
15:58:32 <Gregor> quintopia: Vorpal refuses to understand how phones work in the US. It's not that he can't, he chooses not to.
15:58:36 <quintopia> Gregor: i'm referring to the motorola droid and droid 2. that's their official name.
15:58:53 <Gregor> quintopia: Oh, since Vorpal was comparing it to maemo I thought we were talking about Android :P
15:58:54 <Vorpal> quintopia, ah I thought you meant "android"
15:59:40 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway if you want a specific phone look at n900 (maemo). Don't think meego is in any phone yet, but it is the successor to maemo
16:00:45 <Gregor> Also, Android rules :P
16:00:48 <fizzie> MeeGo is sort of a hybrid of Maemo and Intel's Moblin. (And I'm a bit doubtful as to how well it'll go.)
16:02:32 <quintopia> yeah the n900 looks roughly equivalent to the droid in terms of hardware
16:02:44 <Vorpal> maemo is more gtk (yay)
16:02:48 <Gregor> It's not REAL Java X-P
16:02:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, iirc meego is qt
16:04:28 <Gregor> Hopin' I actually get mine.
16:04:43 <Gregor> I wanted to write ZEE for it, but have no story/photo person >_>
16:05:06 <Vorpal> so it should work on there
16:05:30 <Gregor> Vorpal: Well, I mean it was the possibility of the Pandora being a nice platform for it that led me to want a Pandora :P
16:06:17 <Gregor> My Eternally Stalled Project *sigh*
16:07:04 <fizzie> Android schmandroid: isn't it so that even on those supposedly "open" phones you have some sort of "jailbreaks"?
16:07:27 <Sgeo> fizzie, that's a function of the manufacturers, not Android itself
16:07:44 <fizzie> Also MeeGo is now Qt instead of GTK.
16:07:45 <Gregor> fizzie: On the actually "open" phones you don't, the ones that you have to "jailbreak" don't claim to be open.
16:07:59 <Gregor> fizzie: However, unlike iPhone, you don't have to jailbreak to run custom software.
16:08:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, how many are open then
16:08:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: Only the "developer" ones.
16:08:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: i.e. ones bought directly via Google.
16:08:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, so in practise they are all closed?
16:09:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yes. But a closed Android phone is nowhere NEAR as restricted as a closed iPhone. It's not even a valid comparison.
16:09:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, but it is closed compared to an n900!
16:09:53 <quintopia> i don't know how hard it is to root an android phone
16:10:00 <Sgeo> quintopia, depends on the phone
16:10:02 <fizzie> And the N900 is closed compared to openmoko.
16:10:05 <Vorpal> quintopia, what about compiling a custom kernel?
16:10:07 <quintopia> but developer phones are already rooted
16:10:21 <coppro> yeah, developers effectively get root
16:10:29 <coppro> with non-developers, it varies
16:10:34 <fizzie> The point is not "how hard", it shouldn't be necessary at all.
16:11:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:11:10 <Vorpal> if you buy hardware it should be yours. And it should be up to you what you do with it
16:11:20 <quintopia> this is true, but the apps that depend on rooting target a very small portion of the market, so they are unlikely to change that.
16:11:50 <Gregor> fizzie: For the iPhone, it's basically Apple douchebaggery. For Android, it's mainly around preventing arbitrary /apps/ from getting root, and not giving random-idiot-user the idea that there is such a thing.
16:12:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh right, they don't even come with a proper native userland.
16:12:37 <fizzie> N900 comes with an xterm in the app menu.
16:12:47 <Gregor> Here's the problem: Propose a solution that would allow developers to root without putting total morons in possible jeopardy (keep in mind that morons will click "yes" and put in their password for any reason)
16:13:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, n900 seems to have managed without major issues
16:13:23 <Gregor> Vorpal: n900 has no users.
16:13:27 <quintopia> Vorpal: it does have a unixy filesystem with all of the unixy programs you'd expect though. you can throw a shell on it right off and start doing unixy things.
16:13:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, fizzie uses it
16:14:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems like that nasty evil Gregor thinks so
16:14:21 <quintopia> you are not a significant demographic
16:14:40 <Gregor> fizzie: You're not a USER, people who actually know how the OS works are 0.000000001% of the target market.
16:15:54 <Vorpal> if computers were cars, almost no one would pass the driving test.
16:16:37 <Gregor> Vorpal: Most people who use computers without full knowledge don't end up hitting someone with their computer and killing them.
16:17:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, quite, they end up sending a lot of spam
16:17:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: Also, the vast majority of drivers in the US couldn't tell you what a transmission is.
16:17:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:18:03 <quintopia> driving a car doesn't require you to know how to do an oil change, as sad as that sounds. there are people you can pay to do it for you
16:18:12 <fizzie> Gregor: Maemo forums are full of real users. (Complaining about Nokia selling them this confusing... thing.)
16:18:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, do you mean not tell how it works, or do you mean how to use it?
16:18:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: I mean if you said "Does your car have a transmission?", they would say "Durrr, what's that?"
16:19:03 <quintopia> i'm not sure if vast majority would say that
16:19:14 <quintopia> probably a good number of folks with automatics would
16:19:24 <quintopia> but people with sticks probably have some idea
16:19:24 <Gregor> quintopia: Which is ... everyone in the US :P
16:19:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, but uh, do they not know how to change gear?
16:20:00 <quintopia> Vorpal: see previously line about automatic transmission
16:20:00 <Gregor> Vorpal: Manual gearshifts are a slim minority of power-users and mocked sports-car-morons in the US.
16:20:06 <Vorpal> at least here the driving exam is on manual transmission
16:20:18 <Vorpal> heck you hardly ever see automatic transmission around
16:20:23 <quintopia> actually, now it seems like everything's going to CVTs...wonder how long it will be
16:20:26 <Gregor> Vorpal: Why is that "at least"? I don't know how to drive a manual, that doesn't make me a bad driver.
16:20:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, at least as in "at least in this part of Europe, but I don't know about other parts of it"
16:21:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, I fail to see where I implied automatic is bad (except it is less fuel efficient iirc)
16:22:16 <Gregor> "at least" -> "to suggest that you have to be at least a little bit competent," :P
16:22:35 <quintopia> vorpal: you know. those things without discrete "gears".
16:22:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, at least = anyway
16:22:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, says google. It can have many meanings.
16:23:16 <quintopia> tbf, i did read it gregor's way at first
16:23:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm that CVT interesting. How does that work internally I wonder.
16:24:02 <quintopia> it explains 3 or 4 different types of CVT
16:24:07 <Vorpal> quintopia, I was actually checking wikipedia
16:24:50 <Gregor> National Hat Day (USA) is January 15th
16:25:29 <quintopia> i suspect that everything that doesn't need immense amounts of torque and speed simultaneously will eventually be on CVTs in the next half-century or so. They seem much more fuel-efficient than "modern" transmissions
16:25:44 -!- j-invariant has joined.
16:25:53 <quintopia> Gregor: oh goody. i have just the hat.
16:26:36 <Gregor> DISCUSSION INSUFFICIENT :P
16:27:35 <j-invariant> regarding the number which nobody noticed between three and four: I have managed to take a solved rubicks cube and twist it into an unsolvable state
16:27:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm indeed. I suppose you can manually override them for when the road conditions need different gear? Or I guess computers can detect such nowdays
16:29:03 <Vorpal> quintopia, I presume most cars have that?
16:29:11 <Vorpal> since it is likely to be needed quite often
16:29:24 <Vorpal> quintopia, then certainly people will know what transmission is
16:29:30 <quintopia> less often than you'd think around here. this weather is the exception, not the rule
16:29:43 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'm sure there are parts of US where that is not the case
16:30:05 <Gregor> Even here in Indiana where it snows all winter, the roads are plowed well enough that you never need to even use chains.
16:30:06 <Vorpal> Alaska comes to mind. But even in northen mainland US...
16:30:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, plowing doesn't help when you get rain which freezes as it hits the ground.
16:30:48 <Gregor> Last winter I drove an automatic Toyota Echo from Oregon to Indiana and never had to set the gear manually X-P
16:31:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, only when it doesn't get cold very quickly after. This happened last week or so here. Dropped from -1 C with rain to -20 C in a few hours (rain stopped when it went below -3 C or so)
16:31:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, no time to pour salt on every small street
16:32:08 <Vorpal> sand helps to some degree
16:32:21 <Vorpal> and salt doesn't work when it is really cold
16:32:56 <Gregor> I think you've just reduced the affected population of the US to near-zero.
16:33:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, I can't say that sort of weather is common here
16:33:26 <Vorpal> but this winter and the one before have been extreme
16:33:42 <Gregor> The six people in Minnesota who have experienced such weather were simply snowed in :P
16:34:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about Alaska?
16:34:12 <Gregor> They fly or walk, driving is much less common there.
16:34:40 <Gregor> The southern part of Alaska is more temperate, and the rest isn't accessible by road.
16:36:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, I guess they could use snowmobiles or similar. They are popular in the extreme northern parts of Sweden
16:36:50 <Gregor> Although yes, I'm sure that those who drive know damn well how to drive a manual :P
16:37:37 <Vorpal> I wouldn't know how to drive an automatic. Manual I know.
16:37:56 <Gregor> I don't think it's possible to not know how to drive an automatic. You could learn in thirty seconds.
16:38:10 <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK don't drive all winter i hear. that's what their bushplanes are for :P
16:38:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P
16:39:07 <Gregor> Vorpal: If you live in Alaska, you have one. (OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not as much of one as you think)
16:39:12 <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:39:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, how many pedals do you have in an automatic? The usual three?
16:39:54 <Gregor> `addquote <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:39:56 <quintopia> well, everyone in AK are close friends with each other anyway. hell, they can see russia from their front porch :P
16:40:25 <HackEgo> 266) <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:40:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, how do you prevent rolling backwards if you are starting uphill then?
16:41:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's what your fancy automatic transmission is for.
16:41:40 <quintopia> idling speed gives you a little bit of forward momentum all the time
16:42:11 <Vorpal> quintopia, so what if you want to stand still, say, waiting for traffic to pass before crossing a major road? Brake down?
16:42:24 <quintopia> keep the brake down or put it in neutral
16:42:25 <Gregor> Or put it in park if you're there for very long.
16:42:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, sounds like it would take more time to start driving from that
16:43:14 <quintopia> you just move your foot to the other pedal...
16:43:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, nor would you with a manual transmission
16:43:45 <Gregor> Vorpal: All you have to do is LIFT your foot from the brake to start moving forward.
16:43:46 <Vorpal> you would just release the clutch more than the equilibrium point. Since you would be in the first gear
16:44:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm true. About the same then
16:44:05 <quintopia> you also have to do a lot of work to get up to speed after that
16:44:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, with manual? Not really.
16:44:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, it comes naturally after all
16:44:41 <quintopia> so does the automatic...naturally as in...you don't do anything :P
16:45:05 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes they sound interesting indeed.
16:50:24 <quintopia> so, question: would you rather have to start a process by pressing 5 buttons in quick succession and then walking away, or by pressing two buttons with a wait of approximately one second in between them. total time is about the same, but in the first case you have to do more work and in the second you have to stand there and do nothing for a whole second.
16:50:57 <Vorpal> quintopia, I would prefer the one that worked on road conditions around here :P
16:51:20 <quintopia> specifically, this is the coice i have for setting my microwave to 1:30
16:51:26 <quintopia> (it runs on no roads around there)
16:51:52 <Vorpal> quintopia, well then, that depends on that operation. I guess I would prefer the one I could run netbsd on
16:53:51 <quintopia> you're creating differences between the two operations that aren't there. this is just two different ways to do the same operation on the same microwave. the only difference is the one i gave and there are no other differences.
16:54:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, I would probably choose randomly between them each time. And also wonder what the point of two ways on the same product was
16:55:04 <Vorpal> then I would realise it was Perl, not Python
16:57:08 <quintopia> this somehow moved me this morning: http://everything2.com/user/Wolfeh42/writeups/January+13%252C+2011
17:01:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:03:38 <zzo38> Star Trek Table of Elementa is very mixed up.
17:04:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm how can you engine brake with automatic? Sure a bit would work but you couldn't control it very well.
17:06:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: Automatic has gears other than "drive", they're not commonly used though. Basically if you put it in first gear, then the engine will clutch and change gears for you when possible.
17:06:26 <Gregor> Vorpal: "Engine breaking" is a technique not commonly known in the US though, I suspect.
17:06:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, here you won't pass driving test if you can't do it nowdays. Because it saves fuel to use it.
17:07:40 <Gregor> Vorpal: It saves fuel on a manual, on an automatic you'll automatically shift down if you brake and slow down anyway.
17:08:16 <Gregor> It also saves on brake pads though :P
17:08:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, if you brake you will surely still engange the brake pads. Which means less fuel saving since more energy gets lost as heat. Simple physics.
17:09:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, update out?
17:09:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it was a bug, but then I tried cutting it down.
17:09:59 <Gregor> Vorpal: I'm not arguing that the fuel savings are the SAME, I'm arguing that it's more of a deal for manual than for automatic.
17:10:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, screenshot? I'm using the alternative launcher thingy so I don't need to update to login.
17:10:45 <quintopia> i engine break when i need to, on steep winding rodes
17:11:02 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I'm going to upgrade until ineiros update. And that probably means waiting for bukkit (horrible name), since hmod will be dropped
17:11:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, looks like birch?
17:11:26 <Gregor> Basically, to drive an automatic: Forget everything you ever learned about shifting. If you want to go forward, put it in "D". If you want to go backwards, put it in "R". If you want to park, put it in "P". If you don't want to move or want to slow down, use the brake. That is literally everything there is that is necessary to drive an automatic.
17:11:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or whatever the English word is
17:11:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess painterly is broken now?
17:12:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, and if you want to drive in bad winter conditions?
17:12:25 <Gregor> quintopia: Why? Most people do.
17:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, I can see a very tall tree with all of the leaves bunched up at the top in a snowy biome.
17:12:34 <quintopia> i have to put overdrive on above 45mph to keep the engine from winding up way too high
17:12:35 <Gregor> Vorpal: Then you put on chains and suffer.
17:12:46 <Gregor> quintopia: ... you turn overdrive /off/?
17:12:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, chains? You mean winter wheels with steel studs
17:13:04 <quintopia> Gregor: below 45mph to keep the engine from running too slow
17:13:08 <Gregor> Vorpal: No, I mean chains.
17:13:22 <Gregor> quintopia: You're a poor excuse for an automatic driver X-P
17:13:33 <quintopia> note that OD on my van is a separate gear and not a button on the shifter
17:13:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, you don't use studded wheels?
17:14:05 <Gregor> Vorpal: Not typically. I have a set of chains for the rare occasion that I need more winter traction (read: never), it would be a huge waste to have winter wheels.
17:14:09 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
17:14:25 <Vorpal> quintopia, not around here
17:14:40 <Gregor> In most locales in the US they're wildly illegal.
17:15:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, NOT IN ALASKA I BET ;P
17:15:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: Last I checked, the vast majority of the US is MORE TEMPERATE than Swedeland! SHOCKA
17:15:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, they are only legal during winter here. And during winter you have to use them (or non-studded snow tires) to be legal
17:16:17 * cheater00 shoots death rays out of his empty eyesockets
17:16:23 <Gregor> Vorpal: Can't use chains at all, or they're just not even something done there?
17:16:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, rarely used. Legal if conditions warrants it iirc
17:17:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, but iirc you have to stop and take them off if you get onto a road that don't need them. Which make them inconvenient for most drivers.
17:18:06 <cheater00> as opposed to taking them off at full speed? i can see how that saves time
17:18:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: Both chains and studded tires beat the hell out of dry roads.
17:18:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, well yes. But you will have a hard time finding dry roads here this time of the year.
17:18:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway they save lives compared to non-studded winter tires.
17:18:57 <Gregor> Vorpal: So do chains :P
17:19:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, true. Still they are not very common.
17:20:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, also limits speed more iirc
17:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, FWIW, the normal and birch wood don't actually stack on each other.
17:22:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: Again, Sweden vs. USA. We don't swap our actual /tires/ because the need for added traction is only warranted some tiny amount of the time, and in some tiny amount of roads. The vast majority of roads are either plowed and drivable with any ol' all-weather tire, or completely snowed over and not drivable no matter how good your tire augmentation is (i.e. snowmobilable), with the latter being a very small set.
17:22:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well seems reasonable
17:22:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, plowing doesn't perfectly clean a road however.
17:23:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay that makes less sense
17:23:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about other crafting from them?
17:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> None that I know of, although I didn't really bother experimenting.
17:24:01 <Vorpal> "* Reeds magically turned into sugar canes. They still make paper."
17:24:22 <Gregor> Also, Birch makes better root beer (birch beer) than conventional Sarsparilla/Sassafras (or artificial imitations thereof), but noooo, birch beer is hard to find.
17:24:24 <Vorpal> j-invariant, he could add a separate ones
17:24:38 <fizzie> In a studded tire, there may only be up to 50 studs per metre (of circumference), and the maximum extent out of the tire surface is 1.2 mm. (Was trying to find out the state of winter tireage in Finland.)
17:25:10 <Vorpal> "* One secret useful block" <-- mhm
17:25:11 <quintopia> Gregor: birch beer is deliciouuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssssssssss
17:25:26 <Vorpal> "* Paintings work in multiplayer" <--- yay finally
17:25:27 <Gregor> quintopia: I KNOW RIGHT
17:25:37 <quintopia> what's that company that makes all those fruit sodas?
17:25:50 <fizzie> December, January and Feburary are the obligatory winter-tire months here.
17:25:51 <quintopia> they made a birch one once and i've NEVER SEEN IT AGAIN SINCE.
17:25:52 <Vorpal> "* Fixed colors going weird on PowerPC" <-- how did that happen
17:26:27 <Vorpal> "* Fixed most lighting bugs in newly generated SMP maps" <--- newly generated. Right. Well I guess it is better than making the server load everything on next start.
17:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover> When elliott comes in I am just going to tell him the changes were "there's cake and also two new types of tree."
17:26:35 <Vorpal> could fix it on the fly maybe
17:26:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the cake is a lie surely?
17:27:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, screenshot?
17:29:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re hMod, he just said that it will be dropped when bukkit is ready; my guess is it might still get a Beta 1.2 update. (Unless you've seen something further on it.)
17:29:33 <fizzie> (There are, after all, >1 contributor to the hMod repo.)
17:29:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should have kept a reed handy to start a farm to try to craft cake.
17:30:45 <Vorpal> pretty sure I saw that it wouldn't be upgraded
17:30:48 <Gregor> You make cake ... out of reeds?
17:31:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, not official however
17:31:42 <fizzie> The only thing I saw was the hMod thread, which still states "Bukkit will be superseding hMod. Once Bukkit is ready, hMod will no longer be updated. I no longer have an interest in Minecraft, so this change is for the best." .. and I think Bukkit is quite far from being ready.
17:32:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I have to say that I think this update is the best since Halloween.
17:33:50 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
17:33:57 <fizzie> I don't think I have ever milked a cow in MC; I didn't even know they were milkable.
17:34:34 <Gregor> fizzie: What else is milkable?
17:34:48 <Gregor> Logically, all mammals should be, but I'm betting that's not the case!
17:34:55 <fizzie> Probably nothing else.
17:35:05 * Gregor sips from his tall glass of pig's milk.
17:35:09 <fizzie> Sheep are shearable, cows are milkable, pigs are ridable.
17:35:18 <fizzie> The right tool.. er, animal, for the right job.
17:35:41 <fizzie> And chickens are... a nuisance?
17:35:59 <Gregor> IF YOU KICK THEM, DO THEY NOT BLEED?
17:36:09 <fizzie> Yes, but that's not a chicken-specific act, you can kick the other animals too.
17:36:17 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:36:22 <quintopia> seems like chickens should fly farther though
17:37:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you can't do a thing to them.
17:38:35 <zzo38> Deep-deep-deep-deep-deep-deep-fry them.
17:39:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, you can't do a chicken-specific act that would result a chicken dropping an egg; there's nothing you can do by right-clicking them.
17:39:44 <fizzie> Shallow-fried chicken, for those who want the insides to be raw.
17:40:26 <Gregor> Well can you at LEAST bugger 'em?
17:41:14 <fizzie> 're not hedgehogs, so I'd *guess*.
17:42:11 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OCTOPODES, NO!
17:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> They drop ink sacs when they die, so I assume they're another source of dye.
17:42:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: And the Minepedia already has pages "Octopus", "Octopi" and "Squid" for it.
17:42:45 <fizzie> Anyhow, where else do you get dye from?
17:43:04 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13217&start=100#p251044
17:44:11 <fizzie> "Inflections: Plural octopuses, octopi, (rare) octopodes"
17:45:52 <quintopia> what does that say about platypus?
17:46:27 <fizzie> "Inflections: Plural platypuses, platypi, (rare) platypusses, (rare) platypodes."
17:46:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I do like the fact that the pretentious-but-not-actually-correct version is the accepted plural.
17:47:18 <olsner> well, the relevant part is being pretentious, not being correct
17:47:23 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: They don't list "octopussies" as a valid plural, however.
17:47:42 <fizzie> I'll keep my PLÖTSPLÄTS anyway.
17:48:00 <quintopia> fizzie: octopussies is the only accepted plural of octopussy
17:49:19 <fizzie> Speaking of which, beta 1.2 unsuprisingly breaks mcmap.
17:49:24 <fizzie> Gregor: Platypode, I choose you!
17:51:19 <fizzie> "I added a player list to the client as a gui hack. But then I realized it just listed players in range, not everyone." "So that's a revert. Next update!"
17:51:33 <fizzie> I wonder if in next update it's going to send other-player coordinates too, or just their names.
17:52:11 -!- elliott has joined.
17:53:09 <Vorpal> the alternative launcher works perfectly
17:53:23 <elliott> 19:31:49 <Sgeo> My dad accidentally threw out the melatonin
17:53:24 <elliott> 19:32:00 <Sgeo> I was planning on sleeping tonight
17:53:27 <Vorpal> elliott, the one that asks about updating
17:53:44 <Vorpal> elliott, since there was an update a few hours ago
17:53:55 * elliott creates .minecraft/launcher
17:54:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:55:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm planning on making my Minecraft the most ridiculously CPU and GPU-intensive program ever.
17:57:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Specifically, I am going to use an HD texture pack (probably Aza's), run on far/fancy, have Better Light installed, and use that arbitrary-GLSL-shader module, with the modified Depth of Field shader (and possibly the Even Better Light one the author showed, if it's released and I can get them to merge; it basically did full lighting, including redstone torch lighing being red, with shaders; beautiful screenshot).
17:57:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well new blocks so if you update you need to use the standard texture pack for now
17:57:17 <Vorpal> or things will look weird
17:57:29 <elliott> Sure. But it's the principle.
17:57:46 <elliott> It'll look ridiculously good.
17:58:00 <elliott> Go away, Notch. We can see your textures.
17:58:24 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe you could use some sort of a custom vertex/geometry shader/mod that'd also smooth the block edges so that the terrain wouldn't be so blocky!
17:58:29 <cheater00> elliott: all that just to make it like a pre-1995 game?
17:58:41 <elliott> cheater00: It... does not really look pre-1995 like that.
17:58:56 <cheater00> in what way does it look pre 1995 then?
17:59:44 <cheater00> Gregor wins the spelling bee prize!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:59:54 <Vorpal> elliott, so going to use the alternative launcher and play on the server?
18:00:12 <elliott> I doubt it, the server will probably go vanilla soon.
18:00:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well until then
18:00:26 <Gregor> cheater00: OH BOY IM GONNA USE IT TOO BYE ALOT OF CANDY
18:00:29 <elliott> depth of field example: http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110107at111.jpg/
18:00:49 <cheater00> elliott: i bet it could run on this: http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop
18:01:15 <elliott> Vorpal: here's the really cool (and afaik unreleased) one, shader light: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/
18:01:31 <Vorpal> <elliott> depth of field example: http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110107at111.jpg/ <-- this reminds me of those clay-animation games somehow.
18:01:46 <cheater00> elliott: the polycount is the giveaway
18:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it looks like it is made out of cardboard boxes and so on.
18:01:54 <cheater00> elliott: there were DOF mods for unreal 1 engine
18:02:09 <elliott> games in 1995 did not look like that, in general.
18:02:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean it really looks like someone made a miniature set and took photos in it. The other one is nice
18:02:37 <fizzie> The first Unreal game was released in 1998.
18:02:49 <elliott> yeah the depth of field is a bit extreme, i'd tweak it a bit
18:02:49 <cheater00> yes, but the first tech demo was leaked in 94
18:02:51 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, mipmapping, to stop the ugly warping when playing on far: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/
18:03:05 <elliott> Vorpal: e.g. look at the stairs on far, look around, notice it warbling
18:03:08 <cheater00> Vorpal: have you seen those photos of real life that are minified? :D
18:03:10 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't there anisotropic filtering or whatever to do that?
18:03:15 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
18:03:21 <cheater00> they use like a really long exposure and a moving lens :D
18:03:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: btw, mipmapping, to stop the ugly warping when playing on far: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/ <-- that is the light pic
18:03:32 <elliott> Vorpal: that'll give you the same problems as anti-aliasing
18:03:36 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
18:03:38 <fizzie> Even Descent 1 doesn't quite qualify "pre-1995", since it came out in 1995. (But it had some coloured lights, IIRC.)
18:03:38 <elliott> see the screenshot there :P
18:04:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure. I doubt my CPU could handle it
18:04:40 <elliott> Vorpal: err. it's likely to cause less load
18:04:47 <elliott> Vorpal: all it does is use less pixels the further away the texture is
18:04:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well mipmapping yes
18:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the other ones
18:05:25 <cheater00> elliott: causes it to use multitexturing though
18:05:43 <cheater00> using less pixels just lowers the necessary bandwidth
18:06:22 <Vorpal> (well I doubt that will matter)
18:06:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, um, what are the new tree types.
18:06:47 <Vorpal> elliott, birch tree is one iirc
18:06:53 <elliott> Knee-jerk "I don't like it" at this point.
18:07:00 <Gregor> The other is the Tree of Knowledge.
18:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Birch and a single sighting of a conifer-shaped one in a snowy biome.
18:07:10 <Vorpal> elliott, Phantom_Hoover said best update since halloween
18:07:16 <elliott> "A bunch of new crafting recipes" Oh joy.
18:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because it did something *other* than breaking everything.
18:07:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who knows. Might have broken stuff.
18:07:49 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Bonemeal what
18:08:17 <cheater00> http://img689.imageshack.us/i/minecraftmip.png/
18:08:27 <cheater00> now if they added per pixel lighting to the whole thing
18:08:46 <elliott> cheater00: Better Light does ambient occlusion.
18:09:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Some Minepedia file-uploader seems to think the trees are aspens. (Which sounds rather unlikely.)
18:09:26 <Vorpal> cheater00, nah, go for FPGA-based real-time raytracing!
18:09:37 <cheater00> Vorpal: speaking of fpgas, i am slowly learning
18:09:46 <cheater00> Vorpal: soon, i'll be simulating neurons in fpga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
18:10:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is the cake good for?
18:10:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, does it stack at least?
18:10:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Cake is absolutely useless AFAIK, but I'm going to make some anyway.
18:10:53 <fizzie> Edible items don't tend to stack.
18:11:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It does heal 1.5 hears "every use, and you can use it 6 times".
18:11:51 <Vorpal> elliott, seems like paintings were fixed in SMP. So some good news.
18:11:53 <fizzie> According to Minepedia, anyway.
18:12:40 <elliott> I wonder if I should try and put optimine into that big hodge-podge of mods I'm installing.
18:12:45 <elliott> It might, you know, make this actually feasible.
18:13:34 <elliott> Exactly what it says on the tin.
18:13:40 <elliott> SPAWNIN' NEXT TO CLAY OH YEAH
18:14:27 <zzo38> I think "octopodes" is correct and "octopi" is incorrect.
18:15:42 <zzo38> j-invariant: I don't think so.
18:15:57 <elliott> Monster spawners work in daylight, right?
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18:16:11 <j-invariant> two of them are an octopair, three are an octet, five are an quintopus, seven are a septopode
18:16:20 <copumpkin> octopodes if you're pretentious, octopi if you're pretentious and clueless, and octopusses if you can't be bothered
18:16:21 <zzo38> fizzie: But octonions is different.
18:16:58 <fizzie> "Octopuses" is the most common plural, they say.
18:17:04 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
18:17:07 <elliott> Do monster spawners require a certain area around them?
18:18:02 <fizzie> I could quote the OED entry in whole, since I still have the tab open: "The plural form octopodes reflects the Greek plural; compare octopod n. The more frequent plural form octopi arises from apprehension of the final -us of the word as the grammatical ending of Latin second declension nouns; this apprehension is also reflected in compounds in octop-: see e.g. octopean adj., octopic adj., octopine adj., etc."
18:19:23 <elliott> they work in daylight don't they
18:19:56 <zzo38> For the pluralization tables of Plain TeXnicard, it will make "octopuses" which the reference which I took the data from, says is correct, but it also says "octopodes" is correct. I selected the Anglicise plurals to make the rule lists simpler.
18:20:51 <elliott> Though placing torches around the spawner or otherwise lighting the area will prevent monsters from spawning, the only sure way to prevent a Monster Spawner block from spawning monsters is to destroy it.
18:20:56 <elliott> In rare cases where the dungeon is located near the surface, the player can remove the ceiling of the dungeon and expose the Monster Spawner and surrounding area to direct sunlight, preventing monster spawns during the day [1].
18:21:11 <elliott> skeletons aren't very useful are the
18:21:31 <oklopol> if you put stuff around it, probably it can't do much?
18:21:35 <elliott> oklopol: scared dammit scared
18:21:59 <Gregor> <elliott> Meh meh meh I'm afraid of the walking dead oh woe is me durp durp
18:22:06 <oklopol> well just a few layers of dirt, takes just a couple seconds and you'll have your own monster spawner for later
18:22:30 <elliott> 6 iron ingots (thanks chest)
18:22:46 <elliott> So... woo, now fuck, it's gonna be nigth soon and I have no house
18:23:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That birch tree is hideous.
18:23:23 <oklopol> elliott: by 6 iron ingots DO YOU MEAN 6 STACKS OR 6 BIG BOXES
18:23:45 <oklopol> lol i have like 10 boxes in my base.....................
18:24:04 <oklopol> by having played one night
18:24:13 <oklopol> do you mean having played one stack of nights or a big box of nights
18:24:29 <fizzie> oklopol: Or bix box of night-blocks crafted out of 9 nights?
18:24:33 <elliott> i mean this is the first day
18:24:43 <elliott> fizzie: hey what should i build my house out of, SAND? lololololol
18:25:09 <fizzie> elliott: Build it out of Lapis Lazuli, the "misterious Ore/Block added in Minecraft Beta 1.2 .The only known use is for make the Blue Dye"
18:25:16 <oklopol> elliott: you could craft some emos out of night blocks
18:25:17 <fizzie> (Punctuation as in the source.)
18:25:19 <Gregor> Cool houses are built of pure obsidian.
18:25:28 <elliott> I just read "lapis lazuli" yesterday... Baader-Meinhof.
18:25:35 <fizzie> Gregor: The ICE HOUSE is the coolest house.
18:25:36 <elliott> Gregor: Do you play MC, or do you just know things X-P
18:25:50 <Gregor> elliott: I'm talkin' REAL LIFE, bitch!
18:25:53 <elliott> j-invariant: you can get under-beach caverns, touching one bit of the roof destroys it all :D
18:25:57 <elliott> j-invariant: well, makes it all fall
18:26:42 <oklopol> what? that was like the only reason to have finite height world
18:26:55 <Slereah> Did anyone ever do a computer in minecraft?
18:26:58 <oklopol> that sand can be realistic without the coder having a brain
18:27:01 <Slereah> Since it seems to have logical gates
18:27:11 <oklopol> Slereah: yes, even i know that
18:27:19 <elliott> so what should i do with my 6 iron ingots
18:27:32 <oklopol> elliott: wait till you have more, iron blocks are sexy
18:27:45 <elliott> Slereah: google minecraft cpu
18:27:51 <elliott> oklopol: not like, armour? :P
18:27:55 <fizzie> Maybe the iron block house.
18:29:57 <fizzie> elliott: So that DOF shader, does it "focus" on the distance the crosshair is on?
18:30:17 <fizzie> Slereah: Or until you use the bukkit as furnace fuel.
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18:30:28 <elliott> fizzie: The screenshot is from a modified version later in the thread.
18:30:30 <Slereah> When you have infinite wood
18:30:37 <elliott> it's getting dark, and my house isn't even vaguely done :(
18:30:48 <elliott> and lose all my amazing first-day possessions
18:31:19 <Slereah> If it's just first day, it doesn't matter much
18:31:46 <elliott> Slereah: I have a ton of clay, 6 iron ingots, a decent bit of wheat, bread, two saddles, 8 string, and wood.
18:32:08 <elliott> That is a good first day that makes me NOT WANT TO DIE
18:32:15 <elliott> oklopol: yes, but I got the clay and wood from spawn
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18:32:36 <Slereah> He is Spongebob Squarepants
18:32:43 <elliott> my first house will be a tower
18:33:53 <elliott> should i make a pick, sword, armour, or what with my ingots
18:34:03 <elliott> Slereah: on top of a tower?
18:34:30 <elliott> tell me what to do with my ingots
18:34:30 <Slereah> That is not really a tower
18:34:40 <elliott> Slereah: keeps me away from creepers
18:34:50 <elliott> hope they don't blow up my fucking clay :D
18:34:54 <elliott> Vorpal: first night, i have 6 iron ingots
18:34:59 <elliott> Vorpal: what should i do with them
18:35:05 <Slereah> Picks go away pretty quickly
18:35:09 <Vorpal> elliott, switch to peaceful
18:35:12 <Slereah> So usually stone is better for that
18:35:21 <elliott> Slereah: i have no stone tonight :D
18:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, whatever you feel is best then
18:35:26 <Slereah> Armor might help, but I ouldn't do it on the first day
18:35:33 <fizzie> elliott: Craft: iron HOE + iron SHOVEL.
18:35:36 <Slereah> elliott : Wood pick, mine some stone, make stone pick
18:35:38 <fizzie> The most important tools evar.
18:35:45 <Vorpal> elliott, probably sword then armor?
18:35:46 <elliott> Slereah: CAN'T MINE STONE ON THE FIRST NIGHT
18:35:59 <oklopol> fizzie: shovel is much more useful than axe imo
18:36:04 <elliott> sword is top priority, but is an iron sword worth it?
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18:36:25 <elliott> Vorpal: can't really do armour AND anything else
18:36:30 <elliott> boots would leave me with only 2 iron!
18:36:31 <fizzie> elliott: Wait, no, no, wait: six, you say? You can make a minecart! (And then one shovel.)
18:36:35 <oklopol> elliott: yes, the enemies will be too afraid to come close
18:36:43 <Slereah> elliott : Wait for morning
18:36:51 <elliott> Slereah: there will be lots of monsters below
18:36:56 <elliott> I need to be equipped to fight them
18:37:01 <elliott> a stone sword doesn't sound "equipped" to me
18:37:21 <elliott> as i said, i could only make one piece of armour
18:37:27 <fizzie> Slereah: What's the recipe for an iron flee?
18:37:27 <elliott> also, hard to flee when i'm dismantling my house
18:37:49 <Slereah> If it's one block tall, just walk
18:38:06 <fizzie> You could also make 16 minecart tracks and make a rectangular loop, then repeatedly run it.
18:38:11 <elliott> Slereah: It is about 40 blocks of clay tall.
18:38:27 <Slereah> Are you far from your spawn point?
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18:38:50 <Slereah> Locate it because it is tall
18:39:00 <elliott> I would jump into nice, relaxing, non-dying sea.
18:39:26 <Slereah> It's not really a game for fighting monster, really
18:39:29 <elliott> Nonetheless: what do I do with my 6 iron that will help me best on the first night? I'm leaning t'words sword at this point.
18:39:31 <Slereah> especially on the first night D:
18:39:34 <elliott> Iron sword should kill off enemies pretty quickly.
18:39:51 <elliott> Just whack 'em with the sword. Duh.
18:39:58 <elliott> Slereah: Eh, if you have full armour and a good sword you can stay outside all night.
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18:40:54 <elliott> "void main() is not legal in C++ but is legal in C." Whoa.
18:41:05 <Slereah> Which prolly won't happen at night
18:41:28 <Slereah> I'm lucky if I can find coal on the first night
18:42:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: fizzie: Behold, the PERMA-LITE: http://i.imgur.com/Jghek.png
18:43:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It does essentially nothing, other than dying things blue.
18:44:31 -!- Oklopol has joined.
18:45:06 <Slereah> Make a colorful fortress of doom
18:45:28 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: so now you can have your bluestone? *ducks*
18:45:31 <Slereah> Cactus are useless, though
18:45:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: fizzie: Behold, the PERMA-LITE: http://i.imgur.com/Jghek.png <-- what
18:46:03 <elliott> Just accidentally made an iron pickaxe :P
18:46:25 <Slereah> Well, it will be useful if you encounter some redstone or diamond
18:46:55 <Slereah> Is that why everything is made of
18:47:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I can make a house in the style of Edinburgh's New Town!
18:48:14 <elliott> Pickaxe, sword, and axe. Guess I'm set for day.
18:48:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Is it craftable from sand and stone?
18:48:41 <Vorpal> oh no he will add lanterns further on
18:49:04 <elliott> Creeper circling my precious clay house.
18:49:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'm sure we can get a kit :P
18:49:29 <elliott> Yeaaaaah, that doesn't help SSP.
18:49:40 <elliott> "Lanterns are planned crafted objects which were originally planned to be introduced in the Halloween Update. This feature was delayed because of the lack of time and will be implemented in a future update."
18:49:41 <Vorpal> elliott, true but I have large stocks there
18:49:46 <elliott> It's easier than fucking music blocks, Notch.
18:50:02 <Vorpal> elliott, less nice than those though
18:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so what is the new useful block?
18:50:18 <Gregor> Music blocks? Do you bounce off of them?
18:50:22 <Oklopol> erm, what is special about a lantern?
18:50:27 <elliott> Oklopol: torches will go out
18:50:29 <Oklopol> couldn't he just copy paste the code from torches?
18:50:31 <elliott> and need flintn'steel to relight
18:50:32 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
18:50:43 <oklopol> obviously there is no reuse of any line of code
18:50:47 <Gregor> elliott: Mario is shaking his head in shame.
18:50:58 <elliott> oklopol: he writes the 3d rendering code for each block individually!
18:50:58 <oklopol> but it should still be trivial to add lanterns...
18:51:21 <oklopol> yeah, then makes texture files by taking screenshots so that it looks like he's not a retard
18:51:54 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, but y'see, maybe he was worried about there not being enough time to playtest it for balance problems.
18:54:34 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Didn't he roll back the "non-monster-spawn light level depends on depth" thing real fast because of difficulty issues.
18:54:58 <elliott> It's a really stupid idea.
18:55:13 <elliott> It only makes sense as part of the Bluestone proposal, where you could power a torch indefinitely with a generator anyway.
18:55:21 <elliott> Assuming you get enough bulk fuel, which shouldn't be too difficult.
18:55:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It makes secure mines impossible until you can make a nether portal, which requires vast amounts of mining in the first place.
18:55:30 <elliott> You can just throw coal in to keep everything you use going.
18:55:36 <oklopol> well obviously the game needs either bots or a huge amount of players
18:55:41 <oklopol> so you can use them as bots
18:56:03 <elliott> oklopol: make smp bots, the protocol isn't that hard :)
18:56:30 <oklopol> i wanna make my bots in-game
18:57:03 <elliott> Vorpal: please tell those guys at Umeå universitet to stop using their internet connection, i'm downloading ubuntu packages
18:57:17 <elliott> Vorpal: they host my ubuntu mirror
18:57:23 <elliott> go tell them off for hogging the pipe
18:57:32 <elliott> you're in sweden, shouldn't be hard to get there
18:57:55 <Vorpal> elliott, you realise the distance to there from here is longer than from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland?
18:58:27 <elliott> Vorpal: you want me to go tell Phantom_Hoover off? i can do that, sure
18:58:39 <Gregor> The distance from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland is pathetic :P
18:58:50 <elliott> Gregor: your face is pathetic
18:58:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you think would happen
18:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> The distance from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland is pathetic :P ← and elliott is talking about north England to south Scotland.
19:00:34 <Gregor> What is it, like 700 miles? Less?
19:00:35 <Gregor> (I forget if that still works)
19:01:01 <Gregor> In my country, blah blah blah it's bigger is the point.
19:01:02 <fizzie> Gregor: Google Maps Labs has added a distance measurement tool now.
19:01:41 <fizzie> It can even measure the length of a polyline if you like.
19:01:44 <elliott> Gregor: I realise you're compensating for your lack of size in other areas. It's okay.
19:02:05 <fizzie> (And report results in Ångströms or light-years.)
19:02:40 <Gregor> In my country, you can drive 1,000 miles and see no appreciable change in dialect, accent, religion or ethnicity!
19:02:40 <Gregor> Also, you can drive 2,000 miles to the same effect :P
19:02:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about parsec?
19:02:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: That, too. And TeX points.
19:02:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, not on the east coast I bet
19:03:04 <Gregor> elliott: Any lack of size there could only have been inherited from the UK, but at least we have our teeth :P
19:03:37 <Gregor> Vorpal: Less so on the east coast, but the east coast is still WAY more homogenous than anywhere in Europe.
19:03:49 <fizzie> Gregor: In my country, you can drive a million miles with no change. (Admittedly you need to be driving in a small circle.)
19:04:49 <Gregor> Oh yeah, well in my country you can drive a parsec with no change (in a rather large circle)
19:06:04 <Vorpal> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Dispenser <-- oh they can fire arrows, nice
19:06:17 <fizzie> Well in my country you can drive infinity plus 999 miles!
19:06:49 <Vorpal> in my country you can drive an uncountable infinity distance
19:07:18 <Vorpal> not only in a circle. But also in a square with rounded corners!
19:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, that is officially the best thing to happen to MC since sliced bread.
19:08:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah mods have been able to do this for ages
19:09:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well for server mods that would be hard
19:09:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, craftbook had an IC to do it
19:09:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also an arrow barge one
19:11:42 <Sgeo> I think I'm looking into Atomo again
19:12:31 <Gregor> `echo It's not slowness, it's unimplementedness :P
19:12:33 <HackEgo> It's not slowness, it's unimplementedness :P
19:12:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, working on making mcmap work with this new one?
19:13:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/calc
19:13:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not at the moment; do you have some local server you'd like to run it against?
19:14:06 <Sgeo> Hold on, let me check
19:14:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, my local server runs hmod and movecraft, so not very
19:15:15 <Sgeo> http://eterna.cmu.edu
19:15:22 <fizzie> Right. The protocol docs seemed updated already, but I'll probably patch mcmap when there are some uses for it.
19:15:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, collecting flowers on ineiros's server atm
19:16:07 <fizzie> It'll be a backwards-incompatible change anyway; I don't really feel like supporting multiple protocol versions, since Notch doesn't bother anyway.
19:16:20 <fizzie> Are flowers a renewable resource? I guess not.
19:18:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ^
19:19:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Going to update the WooW flora room "reed" sign, now that they're sugar instead?
19:19:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, do they still grow next to water
19:20:04 <Vorpal> if so it sounds like reed
19:20:19 <fizzie> I don't think the semantics have been changed.
19:22:28 <fizzie> "Like the real plant, sugar cane must be planted on a grass/dirt block immediately adjacent to water, --"
19:32:20 <j-invariant> I came across some so I trimmed it and replanted then lost it :|
19:32:43 <elliott> I still haven't found my sugar cane
19:32:50 <elliott> I came across some so I trimmed it and replanted then lost it"
19:33:01 <elliott> "god damn it / I still haven't found my sugar cane", by J. Invariant.
19:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, hey, wait till you try to find some eggs.
19:33:26 <elliott> imagine it being read in a serious voice by a 60-year-old poet
19:41:52 <oerjan> elliott: needs a blues melody i think
19:43:39 <quintopia> god damn it i still haven't found nananeenernanun
19:43:57 <quintopia> my sugar can cane i came across some nananeenernanun
19:44:29 <quintopia> so i trimmed it and replanted nananeenernanun
19:44:44 <quintopia> then lost it colon pipe nananeenernanun
19:50:41 <oerjan> well it surely _looked_ as if quintopia had snapped *ducks*
19:51:15 <quintopia> gregor: ce n'est pas une colon pipe
19:51:36 <elliott> ceci nest p'as none colon pipe une
19:52:04 <oerjan> cesium is no colon pipe
19:53:09 <oerjan> ...i think that may be illegal
19:53:46 <Gregor> Go go gadget colon pipe?
19:54:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | I'll suck up ALL your fleep, baby! Right through the colon pipe. | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
19:54:26 <quintopia> no not the gadget skates! whooooaoaoaOOOOOAAAA
19:55:03 <oerjan> Gregor: do we _really_ want to scare away the newbies before getting them addicted?
19:55:25 <Gregor> oerjan: HEY, don't make me reintroduce your colon pipe.
19:55:31 <elliott> i'm currently optimising my procedure, i think i can filter out the worthy ones even quicker than i did with the xkcd guys
19:55:39 <elliott> basically i start by killing their family
19:55:44 <elliott> and then i yell in their ear for 24 hours
19:55:54 <Gregor> oerjan: My piping is 2" PVC now.
19:55:55 <elliott> those that then create seventy languages of oklopol-level pure beauty then go onto the next stage
19:55:58 <oerjan> NO! NOT YELLING IN THE EAR!
19:56:06 <oerjan> that's just plain _cruel_
19:56:07 <elliott> oerjan: YELLING INSULTS NO LESS
19:56:15 <elliott> yeah they usually beg me to just like
19:56:18 <elliott> kill their grandparents too
19:57:05 <quintopia> at least not until they release another album
19:57:37 <Vorpal> <Gregor> oerjan: My piping is 2" PVC now. <-- play music on it
19:58:11 * elliott plays music on his colon pipe
19:58:11 <oerjan> it's Vorpal what do you expect
19:58:24 <elliott> someone seize it before it explodes with music
19:58:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait, I thought you would expect that from Gregor
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19:59:11 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm pretty sure we've discussed PVC instruments on this channel before
19:59:39 <Gregor> OK, done with the colon pipe discussion then :P
19:59:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, they are quite interesting
19:59:42 <elliott> http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/
19:59:55 <Vorpal> elliott, any colon pipe there?
19:59:57 <Gregor> I do want to make a PVC xylovibraglockenphone.
20:00:09 <elliott> geez you are all obsessed with my colon pipe
20:00:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, what exactly is a xylovibraglockenphone
20:00:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, any photo of one?
20:01:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: I'm referring of course to the family of instruments including the xylophone, vibraphone, marimba and glockenspiel.
20:01:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/ <-- link dead, goes to geocities
20:01:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, you might want to update that link
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20:01:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, also images on http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/baritonetrombute.php broken
20:01:44 <quintopia> it's a cross between and vibraphone a glockenspiel and a xylophone and a drumbone for good measure
20:01:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, and that is your local stuff
20:02:00 <Vorpal> http://codu.org/pics/displayimage.php?album=33&pos=3 <-- 404
20:02:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: That I'm aware of and haven't bothered to fix :P
20:02:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, how does it look then?
20:02:26 * quintopia looks forward to the next blue man gregor concert
20:02:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: I didn't even put instructions on my PVC trombone there :P
20:03:04 * oerjan finds a reference to "ass pipe" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_Virgin_Islands
20:04:13 <fizzie> PVC saxophone? (I haven't been following the context.)
20:04:16 <Vorpal> elliott, so how is the new minecraft version?
20:04:25 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't really played, but it seems stable enough.
20:04:31 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm not sure how to make a single reed, and valves are borderline impossible.
20:04:55 <Vorpal> elliott, downside is of course that you can't play on current server atm unless you use alternative launcher
20:12:19 <Gregor> "trombaxophone" has only one result on Google D-8
20:16:16 <pikhq> Among other things, Sony submitted *the actual keys* in court documents.
20:16:35 <pikhq> Meaning that the "circumvention device" they seek to prevent the distribution of is a matter of public record.
20:17:48 <Gregor> Sort of like those scenes in movies where somebody knows they're being watched by the good guys and says "Boy I sure hope they don't find the key under the mat that goes to the back window, since there are no sentries posted to the left of that window!"
20:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely they didn't do something that barefacedly stupid.
20:20:10 <copumpkin> pikhq: in that series of screenshots?
20:20:21 <pikhq> copumpkin: In that gigantic pile of screenshots.
20:20:42 <pikhq> Page... 247 of court document 4.
20:21:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Remember that the keys were already released because Sony doesn't know the meaning of "random".
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20:22:06 <Gregor> pikhq: It was random, it just had a very small range.
20:22:17 <Gregor> Namely, a single value.
20:22:27 <Gregor> copumpkin: HALLO MR I-DUNT-GET-JOKES
20:22:43 <pikhq> Though even if it were random *with a known bias*, the keys would still be vulnerable.
20:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, indeed, but there's failing to be cryptographically secure due to skimming the textbook and there's publishing them on a document you *know* is going to be public.
20:22:55 <pikhq> (this was the issue with the whole Debian OpenSSL thing)
20:23:52 <pikhq> http://www.thesangreal.net/gaf/sony.zip Well, this zip has all the stuff submitted by SCEA so far.
20:24:03 <pikhq> The pile of screenshots is in 04.pdf
20:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Christ on a pogo stick, wheat takes ages to grow in MC.
20:25:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it always done?
20:26:11 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: As opposed to real life, where you pretty much drop it in the ground, go get coffee, then make bread.
20:26:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it takes ages to grow in real life too. The issue is that trees grow unrealistically fast in mc.
20:26:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, and where you can break solid stone with your bare hands.
20:26:34 <Vorpal> you need months in real life
20:26:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is some nice karate!
20:27:02 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You can if you're not some kind of PUSSY.
20:27:24 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: (And also it's sandstone)
20:27:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is sandstone?
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20:28:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I meant, chemically
20:28:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a rock made of lightly-cemented sand.
20:28:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I know what sandstone looks like
20:28:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not familiar with that jargon *googles it*
20:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Trust me, I live in a city where the primary building material is sandstone.
20:29:20 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Then if you can't smash through your buildings, then I guess you're just some kind of PUSSY.
20:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> If you could punch apart houses in less than a day, there wouldn't be a house standing.
20:30:00 <quintopia> wrecking balls in the next update?
20:30:09 <Gregor> Rabid house-punching squads are destroying New York! D-8
20:31:02 <copumpkin> I like all the ads in the documents
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20:31:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what can't you smash even sandstone!?
20:31:48 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd have thought they'd have gone over the keys with a marker pen or something.
20:32:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, never tried. I'd assume so
20:33:05 <elliott> I hope Vorpal goes and smashes Edinburgh now.
20:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, a bit too far to travel
20:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Subtitle if it's published in the Evening News: "Believed to be tram contractor."
20:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the Evening News is the local rag, which views the council and the tram system which is being built in a similar light to that in which paedophiles are viewed by lesser tabloids.
20:35:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why do they hate the tram?
20:35:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Because the council did it and it's not exactly been done with the greatest of competence.
20:36:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why do they hate the council?
20:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Tram-talks-off-till-March.6689138.jp
20:36:58 <elliott> I would love to live in a city where trams are treated like paedophiles.
20:36:58 <Gregor> Because the council is the government.
20:37:04 <elliott> It just sounds ... amazing.
20:37:10 <elliott> "Trams: Is YOUR child next?"
20:37:27 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> IO b) -> IO a -> IO b
20:37:28 <lambdabot> Control.Exception bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:28 <lambdabot> Control.OldException bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:28 <lambdabot> Control.Exception bracketOnError :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:29 <Gregor> *picture of young child riding a tram, onlookers stare in horror*
20:37:45 <elliott> *picture of young child riding a paedohpile, onlookers stare in horror*
20:38:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, if you spell paedophile without an 'a' you are obviously a paedo.
20:38:59 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but at least I'm an AMERICAN (not some filthy Amrican)
20:39:57 <fizzie> elliott: Re optimine, intriguingly "The FasterRender mod by @Scaevolus is included in beta 1.2, please let us know if it helps! And send him your regards".
20:40:12 <elliott> fizzie: Right. Isn't that the SSP-only one, though?
20:40:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's =<<.
20:40:27 <fizzie> I already forgot what the different bits did.
20:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/new_zodiac_sign_dates_dont_swi.html
20:41:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way that article is written as if the Earth's axis has suddenly swivelled 30° overnight and astronomers have just noticed.
20:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And then the way that the astrologers try to justify it and they take it completely seriously.
20:42:29 <elliott> http://people.cs.uu.nl/andres/lhs2tex/Guide2-1.16.pdf Oh wow, this is complicated.
20:43:07 <elliott> hey j-invariant, have you used lhs2tex
20:44:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I find it slightly revolting when the advice for students writing lab reports is to use Word.
20:46:29 <fizzie> 87.5% of our students use LaTeX for their reports. (Sample size: N=8.)
20:46:29 <pikhq> SCEA has *also* filed a description of how to go *about* deriving the private keys.
20:46:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hey they added charcoal!
20:46:52 <Vorpal> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Charcoal
20:46:53 <pikhq> In essence, they themselves have made the entire thing a matter of public record.
20:47:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the astrological signs start their division at the spring equinox (the actual modern one). the fact that the divisions are named after >= 2000 year old constellation placements is just tradition. this particular detail isn't really one of the arguments against astrology.
20:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you might find this useful
20:47:31 <pikhq> Well. It's a fairly short description, but one that any knowledgable cryptographer would be able to work with.
20:47:51 <pikhq> "They didn't use random numbers in their ECDSA implementation." ← Sufficient!
20:48:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott, from version history: "Spiders can climb up walls."
20:48:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no they could jump high however
20:48:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no clue
20:49:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they did?
20:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly this is just a lull before Notch brings out the big difficulty hikes.
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20:59:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Charcoal also obviously means light sources (well, until lantern-time) for your sustainability project. (Though I'm not sure how you get a furnace, since even though cobble is sort-of renewable, I'm not sure how you'd do a cobble factory without a bucket to move lava.)
21:00:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I already have one from when lava was renewable from spawn
21:00:42 <Vorpal> and now it is an artifact which can be used
21:00:55 <fizzie> Well, but if you'd like to start from scratch somewhere elsewhere, then it's a problemo.
21:02:14 <fizzie> Maybe you could manage to build a cobble factory around an existing lava fall (unless you'd count that despoiling nature, too), but still a bucket seems essential for moving water around.
21:02:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seen natural cobble factories
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21:04:20 <elliott> WHYWYHOIERYDRLTKJFGH,IOJKLD;SA'SC.F,GNMHLG;KJFD;SPOACLV,XCMVNBL,FGKTRPOEI45039ROKIO908I94586U859RTUYIR9TUJWHY
21:04:30 <Vorpal> elliott, did they climb up 1x1 pillars?
21:05:32 <fizzie> Oh, what a shame: the wiki "Crafting" page recipe images are actual screenshots (cropped any which way and sometimes stretched strangely and whatnot); I was somehow assuming they'd be some clever table-driven things, like Wikipedia's chessboards.
21:12:06 <fizzie> Right, I was sure that's how it worked.
21:12:16 <fizzie> The new "dye recipes" seem to be all more or less ugly screenshots.
21:15:16 <elliott> j-invariant: DO YOU WANT TO READ MY PROGRAM
21:15:30 <elliott> j-invariant: the worst program
21:16:10 <j-invariant> useful examples of mutually recursive functions?
21:16:35 <elliott> j-invariant: is there a shortage of those?
21:17:06 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a]
21:18:51 <elliott> j-invariant: even and odd, for instance!
21:19:15 <j-invariant> the only thing that cmoes to mind for me is EVAL/APPLY and some proofs, well they don't really count though
21:19:16 <elliott> j-invariant: if you only have induction-recursion on naturals, and you can memoise them, it's even the fastest way!
21:19:24 <elliott> eval/apply is pretty relevant
21:19:30 <elliott> all interpreter-esque things are structured that way
21:22:37 <elliott> j-invariant: here's my ugly program: http://sites.google.com/site/ehirdfiles/files/guessing-game.pdf
21:23:00 <oerjan> j-invariant: state machines work nicely as mutually recursive functions
21:24:02 <elliott> j-invariant: that's the sole reason this program exists :P
21:24:20 <elliott> j-invariant: complaints so far: <=, =>, && look ugly, they're too big... also, it italicises EVERY DAMN NAME, which is just really freakin' annoying
21:24:27 <elliott> it should, like, only use it for local variables
21:24:47 <elliott> j-invariant: re: is there something like pastebin for pdfs, as i've just found out, "yes" pretty much
21:24:55 <elliott> j-invariant: go to google sites, create a site, create a page, make it a file cabinet
21:25:14 <elliott> j-invariant: new version: http://sites.google.com/site/ehirdfiles/files/guessing-game.pdf
21:25:17 <elliott> getGuess is less ugly now :P
21:25:22 <elliott> j-invariant: oh, extra complaint about lhstotex: you can't do
21:26:24 <elliott> extra complaint: it doesn't put enough whitespace between two successive functions in a \begin{code} block
21:26:58 <elliott> j-invariant: i wish there was a variant of literate programming that utilised hypertext better
21:27:07 <elliott> j-invariant: like, i don't really care so much about having a coherent linear order
21:27:16 <elliott> j-invariant: but i want to interleave code and documentation fully, and also have links
21:27:25 <elliott> like, i could link to the whole chapter comprising, say, the parser of a language
21:27:35 <elliott> and individual functions would link to the place where they are discussed inside that chapter
21:27:52 <elliott> you could even do a whole OS as a single literate program, because there wouldn't be a strict linear order, it'd be hyperlinked
21:28:18 <j-invariant> elliott: yeah that would be a big improvement
21:28:50 <elliott> j-invariant: and then I could make @ one gigantic literate program with both x86-64 asm and @lang code :D
21:28:57 <elliott> (@ is my platonic ideal dream OS)
21:29:04 <elliott> (@lang is the language it's based on)
21:31:21 <elliott> i love ams euler, it goes so well with linux libertine
21:31:29 <pikhq> Most of the BS-X games will only run for a certain number of boots before locking themselves out forever and ever.
21:31:43 <pikhq> Making it *even more impossible* to actually emulate the damned thing.
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, including the poorly-batched square brackets?
21:32:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is there something wrong with Euler's []s?
21:32:20 <pikhq> Short a bunch of former Nintendo developers "misplacing" a bunch of ROMs on the Internet.
21:32:38 <pikhq> (which *has* happened for some of them.)
21:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> The closing one is noticeably narrower and longer than the opening one.
21:33:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you just mean "they're not flippings of each other", well, it's olde-style.
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21:33:45 <elliott> Who uses square brackets anyway.
21:36:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And whenever we have code snippets in the channel and they contain square brackets it also looks bad!
21:36:35 <elliott> j-invariant: PLAY MY AMAZING GUESSING GAME :d
21:37:30 <elliott> j-invariant: here's the .hs file :P http://sprunge.us/hRLa
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21:40:53 <elliott> while () { /* valid K&R C */ }
21:42:35 <elliott> j-invariant: do you have any opinions on serialisation of arbitrary GADT values
21:43:08 <elliott> j-invariant: but @ is based on serialisation!
21:43:18 <elliott> j-invariant: every value in the system is regularly and completely transparently serialised to disk
21:43:26 <elliott> j-invariant: "RAM" is now a fancy word for "big disk cache"
21:43:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes, you just keep saying how @ is awesome while i explain ti
21:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, LaTeX in @: cool as <something really cool>?
21:44:47 <elliott> Psht, I'm writing my _own_ format.
21:45:10 <elliott> LaTeX is based on the CRIPPLED MOUND OF PRINT LAYOUT.
21:45:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought LaTeX was one of the few things you liked a lot!
21:46:22 <Phantom_Hoover> How about: implement a nice, clean typesetting system, and implement LaTeX on top of it?
21:47:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Impossible; my system will be a semantic documentation system, not a typesetting system.
21:47:40 <elliott> The "LaTeX" part will be a program that takes some documentation and an optional object describing the nitty-gritty of formatting it, and producing an abstract typeset result.
21:47:46 <elliott> By program I mean function.
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21:51:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That'll be part of the semantic format. The syntax will resemble LaTeX
21:53:18 <fizzie> Secret typesetting conspirationism!
21:53:30 <elliott> fizzie: Actually, Minecraft SMP.
21:53:54 <fizzie> Oh, well, that's far less intrigueish.
21:54:08 <elliott> fizzie: And far more creepery.
21:56:49 <elliott> fizzie: Got a spare server lying around?!
21:58:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It can't BE LaTeX because LaTeX is implemented on top of TeX, a low-level, print-based, layout and formatting-centric, non-semantic, imperative language.
21:58:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I was offered an old server by a family member, but I'm not up for paying money to my parents for the titanic electrical cost.
21:59:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's unlikely your connection is fast enough anyway.
22:00:16 <elliott> fizzie: WIPE ZEM AND USE IT TO HOST MINECRAFT
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22:19:01 <Sgeo> I managed to stay awake all day
22:19:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure it's quite performancey enough.
22:24:02 <elliott> fizzie: RAM is the main thing.
22:25:25 <elliott> fizzie: ALL YOUR OBJECTIONS WILL BE MET
22:26:41 <fizzie> It's something like a 1.5GHz Pentium M with maybe a gigabyte or two of memory. And a messy linux-vserver pseudo-virtualization thing.
22:27:36 <elliott> fizzie: But, but we are blowing up TNT.
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22:38:17 <Sgeo> Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you, tomorrow, you're only a day away
22:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, does the fact that you are singing love songs indicate events pertaining to Katie the AT?
22:39:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *Katie A.T. Female
22:39:24 <elliott> I like how it's pronounced "Katie-atie".
22:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I wouldn't be surprised if there is actually something called a KT-AT somewhere in the Star Wars EU.
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22:41:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so basically, your girlfriend is part of the Imperial war machine.
22:42:11 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure that "I love you" referrs to "tomorrow" in that song, not to a person
22:42:21 <Sgeo> Also, she's not my girlfriend
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22:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't matter, she's still part of the Imperial war machine.
22:47:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lere161DYc1qay7sto1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1295045258&Signature=cwhPuXXRZ/x2oU29OTpRyz2s044%3D
22:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Given a supply of wood, which is far easier to secure than a supply of coal.
22:49:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There's an inefficiency in the market, EXPLOIT IT
22:49:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vastly inflate your coal supplies!
22:49:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's basically a wonky exchange rate.
22:49:26 <fizzie> "Given a supply of wood" you can make an indefinite amount of coal from 0 coal, can't you?
22:50:02 <j-invariant> Logically here is a picture of mars http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA13755
22:50:25 <fizzie> It's charcoal, not real coal, isn't it? (With identical behaviour, but still.)
22:50:40 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: do I have to update minecraft? I have never done that
22:51:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I did say that "logically" was an abuse of notation.
22:51:26 <fizzie> It updates even when you don't want it to, until you take pains to prevent it.
22:52:45 <elliott> j-invariant: it means MEANINGNESS
22:52:53 <Sgeo> Ecologically-sound torches/
22:53:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait a second.
22:53:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 1 coal = infinite coal, modulo trees.
22:53:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Coal is now a renewable resource.
22:53:34 <elliott> Step 3: Turn trees and coal into more trees and more coal.
22:54:01 <elliott> <Notch> hurf durf i don't see why i should think when adding features
22:54:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: COMEDY: Notch claims the uselessness of gold is his OMG POLITICAL statement about gold's real-world usefulness. Coal is now renewable. Theory: Notch denies climate change.
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22:54:41 <fizzie> What do you need the 1 coal for?
22:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> "If you use 'octopodes' you had better be able to give this spiel at a moment's notice, and in a British accent."
22:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: people who say "octopi" are fair game for being punched in the face when they act like smug grammar Nazis.
22:59:20 <elliott> the same people who say virii
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23:01:33 <elliott> Vorpal is busy turning his entire chests of coal into more coal.
23:01:34 <olsner> yes, from now on every word ending in -us has -odes as the plural
23:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate Latin dictionaries which just assume you can work out the declensions off-the-cuff from the set of endings they give you.
23:02:16 <pikhq> The issue with "VIRII" as a plural for "VIRUS" is that in Latin, "VIRUS" is an uncountable noun.
23:02:24 <olsner> wikipedia says "The word is from the Latin virus referring to poison and other noxious substances, first used in English in 1392. The plural is viruses."
23:02:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=virus&ending=
23:03:01 <pikhq> So if you were to be *accurate* with your plurals, the plural of "virus" would be "virus".
23:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> At least with comparison to their entry for arma, which I *know* is an uncountable noun.
23:03:25 <pikhq> (source: Wiktionary. May be wrong.)
23:04:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Ah. According to Wikipedia, *some* dictionaries treat it as a generic second-declension noun. However, this is a neologism.
23:04:55 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:05:59 <pikhq> If you do so, the plural is "VĪRA".
23:06:00 <olsner> btw, why all the talk of octopodes recently?
23:07:53 <pikhq> And yes, I'm damned well using all-caps for Latin.
23:08:27 <olsner> aha, so it went something like "* implemented octopi" in the change log and then an explosion of ZOMG WRONG PLURAL FORM?
23:08:41 <pikhq> I should have used it for "VĪRĪĪ" and "VĪRUS", as well.
23:09:02 <pikhq> Or just omitted it in general.
23:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> And if you're going to do it in caps, use the Roman letters.
23:09:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The first is wrong.
23:10:22 <pikhq> U for V in the middle of words is a Medievalism.
23:10:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it a bad sign that I think of Latin words with the Roman pronunciations?
23:11:29 <pikhq> It's technically right to do so with caps, as that practice *does* predate the presence of case in common usage...
23:11:38 <pikhq> *However*, it's not exactly classical.
23:11:38 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: you probably think of english words with english pronunciations...
23:12:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I was thinking of it as "U because it's in the middle of a word", not "U because it's the vowel".
23:12:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but does it make me unbearably pretentious to say "waynee weedee weekee" rather than "veiny veedy veechy"?
23:13:02 <pikhq> Depends on context.
23:13:37 <fizzie> olsner: It's just "* a new water dwelling mob" in the change log, the plural discussion started because the unofficial MC wiki had pages "Octopus", "Squid" and "Octopi" already created.
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23:14:28 <pikhq> Anyways. KONSISTENT ORÞOGRAΦY EYE DISPIES!
23:14:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ViciViciVeb
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23:18:27 <pikhq> elliott: UuikiUuikiUueb.
23:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv3Tt0fFJkU&feature=related
23:21:04 <j-invariant> so what should I be working on in the next four days
23:21:37 <elliott> The ONLY blame-based version control system!
23:21:49 <elliott> features such as: probably slower than even darcs 1
23:21:53 <elliott> j-invariant: it's not a joke :D
23:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, the death of all people with second toes longer than their big ones!
23:22:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:22:32 <elliott> it'll also probably use quite a bit of disk...
23:24:46 <pikhq> Every record of each revision contains the entire repository history up to that point.
23:25:06 <olsner> of course, every revision needs to know what it started with
23:25:09 <pikhq> Unary-encoded for convenience.
23:25:24 <elliott> pikhq: that lacks FEATURES
23:25:24 <olsner> and unary is just the easiest way to encode anything :P
23:26:17 <j-invariant> I'm reading Bertrand Russel "Introduction to the Problems of Philosophy"
23:26:18 <olsner> btw, cutting your hair makes everywhere colder - the effect can be significant if there was a lot of it
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23:27:07 <elliott> the problems of philosophy?
23:27:18 <j-invariant> elliott: stuff like "tables don't exist even though I can touch them"
23:27:52 <j-invariant> I really have not got the slightest clue what he's trying to get at
23:28:33 <elliott> is my gpu meant to be 73 C while idling?
23:28:48 <j-invariant> does anyoen actually care about philosophy
23:29:00 <pikhq> elliott: But I suggest attaching a griddle to it.
23:29:08 <pikhq> Fry you some bacon!
23:29:13 <elliott> note that the laptop feels cool
23:29:19 <elliott> ofc the thermal reading might just be bS
23:29:46 <pikhq> At 73°C, that shouldn't be cool to the touch.
23:29:53 <pikhq> That should be melting your leg-flesh.
23:30:04 <elliott> pikhq: i think the reading is taken from _inside_ the core
23:30:52 <j-invariant> maybe I should write a tutorial about something that nobody cares about
23:31:06 <pikhq> elliott: Melting your leg-flesh!
23:31:17 <elliott> j-invariant: make a tutorial about how to add one to an integer
23:31:32 <elliott> pikhq: apparently it's now 84 C
23:32:38 <j-invariant> Bertrand Russell said "The goal of scienci is to find uniformities of the universe"
23:33:04 <j-invariant> but Feynman said "I don't care if I get a simple equation for everything, I just want to understand nature. If there is no equation okay, that's what we find instead"
23:34:45 <elliott> pikhq: can i explain scapegoat to you, it's not fair just me and ais understanding it
23:34:54 <pikhq> elliott: YOUR LEG-FLESH IS IN PAIN, I'M SURE.
23:35:06 <elliott> j-invariant: i explained it with one line??
23:35:08 <olsner> elliott: not now, I'm going to bed an hour ago
23:35:10 <elliott> or have i mentioned it before
23:36:06 <olsner> oh, there's a movie about feynman and throat singing
23:36:44 <elliott> pikhq: ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED IN SCAPEGOAT
23:38:47 <elliott> j-invariant: did i actually explain tit to you??
23:39:23 <elliott> j-invariant: that was not an explanation :)
23:39:48 <elliott> j-invariant: so you don't want to know? :
23:41:14 <elliott> i'll bother copumpkin more then
23:41:33 <olsner> when did copumpkin end up in here anyway?
23:41:48 <elliott> when PH got lambdabot back
23:41:53 <elliott> all the DAMNED HASKELLERS invaded
23:42:12 <olsner> oh, we have a lambdabot now
23:42:15 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list
23:42:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://twitter.com/pigworker/status/25356492341252096 GET THERE NOW
23:43:49 <j-invariant> elliott: it just says he's teaching.. it's not an invitation :P
23:43:59 <elliott> j-invariant: but it COULD be!
23:44:10 <elliott> if all else fails, stand at the window with your face pressed to the glass, listening intently
23:45:05 <copumpkin> j-invariant: you can talk to him on IRC
23:45:50 <j-invariant> I'm sure he loves all the stupid questions we throw at him in #epigram
23:46:13 <elliott> copumpkin: you fool! if you talk to him on IRC, you'll interrupt his Epigram coding!
23:46:18 <elliott> why do you think 2 is taking so damn long??
23:47:02 <elliott> copumpkin: On the OTHER hand, asking me questions about scapegoat slows nothing down and everyone should do it.
23:47:45 <j-invariant> is there any neat way to diff two directories?
23:47:56 <olsner> there's a programm called diff :P
23:48:21 <elliott> OH MY GOD IT CAN DIFF DIRECTORIES
23:48:27 <elliott> THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE
23:49:07 <olsner> you can also get kdiff or another graphical diffing tool, but most of them suck way more than diff and less combined
23:49:20 <elliott> olsner: so since you're not sleeping i must tell you about scapegoat
23:49:29 <olsner> (and colordiff will make that suck even less)
23:49:53 <olsner> oh, you'll just drive me away so I'm forced to sleep
23:50:15 <j-invariant> this update doesn't fix the bug I mentioned
23:50:24 <elliott> j-invariant: are you sure they actually saw the post about it
23:50:29 <elliott> j-invariant: you should have stored your uagda changes in scapegoa
23:50:35 <Sgeo> elliott, what do you think of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality?
23:50:38 <olsner> elliott: it sounds interesting, which is what makes it so dangerous
23:51:00 <elliott> Sgeo: it's amusing, i haven't read it for ages
23:51:06 <olsner> (hmm, shaving... I can't imagine some people actually do that every single day)
23:51:12 <elliott> j-invariant: that isn't how scapegoat works dammit
23:51:18 * Sgeo loves it so far
23:51:34 <j-invariant> elliott: I have this beautiful vision of scapegoat in ym head, don't ruin it!
23:51:52 <elliott> j-invariant: the reality is even better, because it's FRACTAL!! (not really but)
23:51:57 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: the problem is that it never updates!
23:52:19 <elliott> j-invariant: basically, everything is a Change, capital C
23:52:24 <elliott> maybe i can get olsner to listen if i try hard enough
23:52:29 <elliott> and copumpkin, i don't really wanna do this three times
23:52:44 <j-invariant> -- let's use parametricity in a useful way: prove that any
23:52:44 <j-invariant> -- function of type (X : *) -> X -> X is the identity.
23:53:04 <olsner> save the log, then paste it one line at a time at the right interval to make it seem like you're doing it in person all over
23:53:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: is not a function.
23:53:32 <elliott> argh what's the theroems for free command
23:53:35 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
23:53:42 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:53:48 <elliott> Mathnerd314: it's not a "termination checker"
23:53:53 <elliott> it's just a sub-TC language
23:53:58 <elliott> not a TC language + some checker
23:54:01 <elliott> that's a stupid way to think about it
23:54:13 <elliott> also, good luck doing proofs with _|_
23:54:19 <j-invariant> it's not strongly normalizing /because/ it's sub-TC
23:54:51 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
23:54:59 <elliott> j-invariant: convince olsner to stay up long enough to listen and i WILL
23:55:25 <elliott> j-invariant: i can only do one of those two things :D
23:55:37 <olsner> elliott: hmm, maybe, how long will this take? :)
23:55:48 <elliott> olsner: like 15 minutes max?
23:56:08 <olsner> cool, that's about as long as is left of this half-played episode I just found
23:56:25 <elliott> olsner: do I have to duke it out to the death with that episode?
23:56:49 <olsner> (I find paused mplayer windows all over, then I have to watch them to the end after unpausing)
23:57:02 <copumpkin> elliott: why is that a bad free theorem?
23:57:18 <olsner> elliott: no, I expect you to coexist peacefully
23:57:29 <elliott> olsner: i refuse to talk to anyone without FULL ATTENTION! scapegoat is IMPORTANT1
23:57:34 <elliott> copumpkin: it could give "f = id" :P
23:58:07 <elliott> copumpkin: you want to hear about scapegoat, I'm sure
23:58:21 <elliott> copumpkin: ALL THE MORE REASON
23:58:36 <elliott> i have this conception that ou're in the uk
23:59:29 <j-invariant> elliott: the ! thing is like "gimme parametricity"
23:59:47 <elliott> copumpkin: oh ... so you're lame