00:00:16 <copumpkin> hey, I'm from england originally :P
00:00:25 <j-invariant> not sure what f! A< (Eq A< x<) x< (\_ p -> p) does
00:00:28 <elliott> giving them the secrets of our bad teeth
00:00:35 <j-invariant> looking at the type of f! doesn't really help
00:02:19 <elliott> olsner: have you seen the light yet
00:02:36 <elliott> he's silent because he's regretful
00:02:37 <olsner> no, it's still winter here
00:02:48 <elliott> olsner: have you seen the scapeglight
00:03:08 <olsner> that's not a word I know, so it's hard for me to determine that
00:03:09 <copumpkin> elliott: you're a bad englishman by american standards, anyway
00:03:19 <elliott> olsner: the light of scapegoat
00:03:31 <olsner> copumpkin: I bet he eats crumpets and drinks tea, isn't that enough?
00:03:45 <copumpkin> elliott: you're not supposed to be enthusiastic and noisy. You're supposed to be posh and nonchalant
00:03:57 <copumpkin> I also like marmite and potato waffles
00:04:00 <elliott> copumpkin: i totally am, when i don't talk about scapegoat
00:04:05 <elliott> which is, incidentally, the best thing?
00:04:16 <elliott> i'm aiming to be as annoying as possible until everyone agrees that talking about scapegoat would be preferable
00:04:18 <copumpkin> (that's a rhetorical quesiton, I don't want to know)
00:04:21 <elliott> copumpkin: THE BEST VERSION CONTROL SYSTEM EVER
00:04:43 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah but i'm trying to get as many people involved as possible first so we can have a big scapegoat party
00:04:53 <elliott> augur: ask me about scapegoat
00:05:03 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm on the verge of giving up and just telling you
00:06:08 <elliott> j-invariant: ok fine i will
00:06:15 <elliott> j-invariant: do you know how git and darcs work
00:06:20 <elliott> augur: THE BEST VERSION CONTROL SYSTEM EVER
00:06:24 <olsner> now if you'd just been talking about scapegoat instead of talking about talking about scapegoat...
00:06:30 <elliott> invented by ais, refined (BRILLIANTLY) by me!!!!124823954365706432-2==
00:06:36 <elliott> what i'm saying is i'm a genius? anyway ask me about it
00:06:47 <elliott> i don't want to monologue like oklopol
00:07:02 <Mathnerd314> elliott: how does scapegoat store its data?
00:07:49 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that's not the interesting part
00:07:51 <augur> yeah but thats not new, elliott
00:07:55 <augur> you already </3 me
00:09:16 <elliott> Mathnerd314: all the rest!
00:09:59 <Mathnerd314> elliott: please enumerate the components of "all the rest"
00:10:24 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ALL of the rest!
00:11:38 <Mathnerd314> elliott: for each individual element of "the rest", please print a textual description of it
00:11:45 <elliott> Mathnerd314: set is not countable
00:13:15 <olsner> elliott: btw time's up
00:13:42 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i don't accept extensional choice :)
00:15:24 <Mathnerd314> elliott: then we live in different universes and anything you say will be uninteresting
00:16:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: so you think everything, say, intuitionists say is inherently uninteresting?
00:17:00 <j-invariant> elliott: study normalization proofs with me
00:17:44 <Mathnerd314> elliott: well, uninteresting past the point where you accept other axoms.
00:18:01 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: you have "math" in your name, you are into this stuff
00:18:02 <elliott> Mathnerd314: what does that mean?
00:18:04 <elliott> j-invariant: sounds painful
00:18:07 <elliott> j-invariant: and no he isn't
00:19:09 <Mathnerd314> j-invariant: my nick was carefully constructed for maximum confusion
00:20:30 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: at least you chopped it off whre the next digit is <= 5
00:20:47 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: I have when people write stuff like 3.141
00:22:44 <Mathnerd314> elliott: pi is off by a factor of two from the rest of math.
00:22:58 <elliott> i too have read "pi is wrong" and the tau manifesto.
00:23:22 <elliott> perfectly agreeable articles that serve the secondary purpose of giving people who don't really know any math something to have opinions about
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00:24:20 <elliott> i'm really sad that my map structure doesn't work
00:24:22 <elliott> although maybe i can augment it
00:24:34 <elliott> hahahaha wait, it does work, sorta... if you can enumerate the values of any type
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00:25:05 <lambdabot> Data.Ix range :: Ix a => (a, a) -> [a]
00:25:05 <lambdabot> System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a]
00:25:22 <elliott> :t concatMap (\(a,b) -> [a,b])
00:25:37 <pikhq> SCEA's lawyers have apparently shown up in #ps3dev on EFnet.
00:25:38 <Sgeo> My dad's yelling at me to buy shoes
00:25:42 <lambdabot> forall a b. [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:25:46 <Sgeo> The day before I go to the mall with someone
00:25:53 <elliott> @pl (\xs ys -> concatMap (\(a,b) -> [a,b]) (zip xs ys))
00:25:54 <lambdabot> ((uncurry ((. return) . (:)) =<<) .) . zip
00:26:01 <pikhq> Not saying anything. Just a guy with the right host mask.
00:26:05 <lambdabot> Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
00:26:05 <lambdabot> Data.List deleteFirstsBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
00:26:06 <j-invariant> Sgeo: tell him not to yell or just ignore him
00:26:18 <Sgeo> j-invariant, oh, oops. He's not literally yelling.
00:26:29 <pikhq> elliott: http://pastie.org/1458314 Here's logs.
00:26:55 <lambdabot> [-1,-2,-3,-4,-5,-6,-7,-8,-9,-10,-11,-12,-13,-14,-15,-16,-17,-18,-19,-20,-21...
00:27:03 <lambdabot> [-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,...
00:27:48 <pikhq> Almost certainly not *the* RMS.
00:28:24 <elliott> j-invariant: quick, gimme some haskell to enumerate all strings
00:28:28 <elliott> i can just enumerate chars
00:31:17 <elliott> instance (Elems a) => Elems [a] where
00:31:17 <elliott> elems = concatMap ofLength [0..]
00:31:17 <elliott> concatMap (\xs -> concatMap (\x -> xs++[x]) elems) (ofLength (n-1))
00:31:20 <elliott> j-invariant: was it less ugly than that?
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00:32:24 <elliott> hmm grepping >>= on the logs actually gives nothing, how strange
00:32:41 <elliott> definitely not before the 8th unless i'm missing something, wasn't it in haskell?
00:33:22 <lambdabot> ["f","o","b","a","r","ff","fo","fb","fa","fr","of","oo","ob","oa","or","bf"...
00:34:58 <elliott> class Elems a where elems :: [a]
00:34:58 <elliott> instance Elems Bool where elems = [False, True]
00:34:58 <elliott> instance Elems Integer where elems = interleave [0..] [-1,-2..]
00:34:58 <elliott> instance (Bounded a) => Elems a where elems = [minBound..maxBound]
00:34:58 <elliott> instance (Elems a) => Elems [a] where elems = flip replicateM elems =<< [0..]
00:35:34 <elliott> j-invariant: guess how this helps me implement toList
00:35:51 <lambdabot> forall b a. b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
00:35:56 <elliott> j-invariant: no, this is in a toy :D
00:36:30 <elliott> toList :: (Elems k) => PM k v -> [(k,v)]
00:36:31 <elliott> toList m = concatMap (\k -> maybe [] (k,) (m k)) elems
00:36:45 <elliott> type PM k v = k -> Maybe v
00:36:52 <cheater-> elliott: have you got multitouch to work?
00:37:28 <elliott> cheater-: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir3-2/Meerkat
00:37:34 <elliott> j-invariant: but it's GOOD ENOUGH :D
00:37:43 <elliott> j-invariant: well hey, got a better idea?
00:37:48 <elliott> j-invariant: I could just keep the [(k,v)] along with it
00:37:52 <elliott> but then the function would just be an optimistaion
00:38:13 <j-invariant> elliott: it's hnot possible unless you do something ugly like carry around an upper bound
00:38:32 <elliott> j-invariant: inserting would be hilariously slow :D
00:38:32 <j-invariant> elliott: that's how polynomials are doen :(
00:38:38 <elliott> unless i had a fast goedelNumber thing
00:39:06 <elliott> undecidable instances FUCK YEAHHHHHHH
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00:40:31 <elliott> *Main> toList Main.empty :: [(Bool,Integer)]
00:40:44 * elliott does "toList Main.empty :: [(Int,Integer)]"
00:40:46 <elliott> should terminate eventually
00:41:29 <elliott> *Main> toList (insert 3 42 Main.empty) :: [(Int,Integer)]
00:41:35 <elliott> j-invariant: is concatMap not lazy or something?
00:41:51 <elliott> j-invariant: "elems :: [Int]" --> all negatives first
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00:43:00 <cheater00> i'll have to have ais teach me all of haskell then..
00:43:20 <cheater00> he'll be preoccupied and won't be able to write any more papers that you can illegally download..
00:43:52 <elliott> cheater00: i don't think ais will.
00:44:15 <elliott> j-invariant: can i see how you did the upper bound thing?
00:44:50 <elliott> j-invariant: hey i just realised, you can look up any element certain types of infinite maps in finite time with my impl :D
00:45:50 <j-invariant> elliott: I never actually wrote it but it would be type PM k v = (k,k -> Maybe v) -- with the condition that for k' > k, f k' = Nothing
00:46:11 <elliott> j-invariant: hmm does String have Ord? wait of course
00:46:22 <elliott> j-invariant: you still have to enumerate every string below that one though :-P
00:46:39 <elliott> j-invariant: the idea is that with a perfect lazy specialiser, this should be a very fast implementation
00:46:55 <elliott> j-invariant: because (f key) for common key will automatically get specialised
00:47:02 <elliott> which will involve the impl inserting key into a hash table for f
00:47:11 <elliott> mapping it to a constant value
00:47:15 <elliott> i.e. it turns into a hash table lookup
00:48:40 <elliott> j-invariant: but enumerating is a problem :/
00:49:18 <elliott> http://polymathematics.typepad.com/polymath/2006/06/no_im_sorry_it_.html?cid=18295323#comment-6a00d8341bfda053ef00d83492d19d53ef troll :D
00:49:31 <elliott> wtf that link doesn't work
00:50:23 <j-invariant> I don't understand why people discuss that 0.999.. thing so much
00:50:34 <elliott> Through proofs, yes, you have "proven" that .9 repeating equals 1 and also through certain definitions.
00:50:35 <elliott> But in the realm of logic and another definition you are wrong. .9 repeating is not an integer by the definition of an integer, and 1 most certainly is an integer. Mathematically, algebraicly...whatever, they have the same value, but that doesn't mean they are the same number.
00:50:35 <elliott> I'm getting more out of "hard" mathematics and more into the paradoxical realm. Have you ever heard of Zeno's paradoxes? I think that's the most relevant counter-argument to this topic. Your "infinity" argument works against you in this respect. While you can never come up with a value that you can represent mathematically on paper to add to .999... to equal one or to come up with an average of the two
00:50:36 <elliott> , that doesn't mean that it doesn't conceptually exist. "Infinity" is just as intangible as whatever that missing value is.
00:50:38 <j-invariant> but every time it comes up people discuss it for hours
00:51:05 <elliott> more like idiots are idiots and other people yell at them
00:53:24 <elliott> what, jsmath is lagging my browser
00:56:54 <elliott> j-invariant: so how goes the dependent cas :P
00:58:02 <elliott> j-invariant: but i thought that's what you were doing :(
00:59:23 <elliott> j-invariant: or did you give up?
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01:16:26 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41047777
01:16:34 <elliott> that was a random link from reddit
01:16:38 <elliott> Gregor: http://xkcdinosaur.blogspot.com/
01:16:42 <elliott> Gregor: You have been one-upped.
01:24:06 <pikhq> Dear EVERY FUCKING FLASH VIDEO PLAYER EVER: stop requiring buffers of INCREASINGLY LARGE SIZE.
01:26:04 <pikhq> In fact: every buffering scheme for video from the Internet ever: YOU SUCK.
01:26:41 <pikhq> Buffer enough that, if the current average download speed continues, you will get to the end of the video without ever once stopping.
01:28:39 <Sgeo> Sometimes, YouTube will claim an amount is buffered, and playback is before that point, yet it still stops
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01:33:37 <pikhq> Also, every fucking flash video player ever: HAND ME A URL TO THE ACTUAL VIDEO FILE. FLASH SUCKS.
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01:39:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Handing you a URL to the video file would be an extremely poor way to prevent you from learning the URL to the video file.
01:41:41 <pikhq> Gregor: Why yes, yes it would.
01:42:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Of course, as preventing me from learning the URL to the video file is, I do believe, a "dick move", that is irrelevant.
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02:26:07 <pikhq> quintopia: ... So?
02:26:15 <pikhq> quintopia: .flv is just a video container format.
02:26:26 <pikhq> mplayer demuxes it just fine.
02:43:33 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of once figuring out URL for datastream for flash video and then just downloading it...
02:45:08 <Ilari> (It was a video about IPv4 depletion).
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03:43:11 <oklopol> "<j-invariant> why do people care at all? It's so lame" <<< maybe it's something where people think they are allowed to have an opinion in mathematics, and people love having opinions
03:43:53 <copumpkin> people never seem to debate whether 0.3 recurring is 1/3
03:44:45 <oklopol> well that's equivalent, people always prove an equivalence proof with 0.999... vs 1 first, as a lemma
03:46:49 <oklopol> it's funny because what i see as the difference between S^Z and R is really that 0.9999.... is *defined* to be 1, by taking a certain equivalence relation between elements of S^Z
03:47:18 <oklopol> of course, R has operations and shit, but that's just because after this quotienting, those start making sense
03:48:47 <oklopol> well, of course you can always define R that way, i guess i can't exactly put into words what exactly is funny here
03:55:31 <variable> I'm somewhat confused about the functional nature of Haskell when it comes to IO. I have an entire program written in Haskell. But the moment I want to stop inputting the numbers directly in the program - and use command line arguments I need put everything in a do section and use IOStrings - right?
03:56:17 <copumpkin> you typically keep your "business logic" out of IO
03:56:28 <quintopia> haskell kind of stops being functional when it comes to IO... :P
03:57:42 <variable> copumpkin, yes - but lets say I had some business logic "add these two numbers to together and return the result" I can't pass that function any numbers I got from input
03:58:18 <copumpkin> say you have add :: Int -> Int -> Int
03:58:37 <pikhq> So. That person-from-the-SCEA-lawfirm who signed onto the #ps3dev room?
03:58:38 <copumpkin> do x <- readLn; y <- readLn; print (add x y)
03:58:49 <pikhq> *He used his real name*.
03:59:19 <pikhq> "kdutine" was his nick; "Kip Dutine" is his name.
04:00:06 <variable> pikhq, you sure it wasn't a parody ?
04:00:08 <pikhq> copumpkin: Shame that it's like 4 or 5 intelligent people and hundreds of complete morons going "LAWL PIRACY".
04:00:17 <pikhq> variable: The host mask was from the actual lawfirm.
04:00:39 <variable> pikhq, I call Poe! <----- joke
04:01:05 <variable> WHAT THE HELL python library for wikipedia
04:01:33 <pikhq> But seriously... Those people who want a backup manager working on 3.55? Get off your ass and write it yourself if you care that much. If you can't be bothered, well, shaddup about it!
04:03:01 <pikhq> Though I *would* like to see a region-free PS1 and PS2 loader one of these days... I'm not exactly pestering the people who are trying to figure out how shit works about it!
04:05:58 <oklopol> i read that as religion-free PS1 and PS2 loader
04:09:36 <copumpkin> all the cool kids are getting sued, so should you!
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07:50:53 <coppro> wow, ice's expansion pressure is huge
07:51:44 <rodgort> shaswot: the channel knows, I do not
07:52:48 <fizzie> What is it the channel knows? (Why does that sound like a silly riddle?)
07:55:43 <oerjan> the channel knows all, sees all
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08:04:31 <coppro> pikhq: water has ridiculous expansion pressure when it freezes
08:04:58 <coppro> do you know how much pressure is required to melt water at 251 K?
08:05:26 <coppro> we should harness this somehow
08:06:37 <coppro> 1 atm is atmospheric pressure
08:06:41 <oklopol> 20000 meters of water if i recall correctly?
08:07:06 <oklopol> that water thing tells me something
08:08:41 <oklopol> okay, i recalled 10 meters of water is one atmosphere
08:09:17 <coppro> actually, it may be less
08:09:25 <coppro> due to the increasing force of gravity at depths
08:09:30 <coppro> simple linear calculations won't account for that
08:09:40 <coppro> (also the slight compressibility of water)
08:09:52 <oklopol> erm 20km matters for that?
08:09:59 <coppro> 20km is roughly correct though
08:10:54 <oklopol> well anyway i don't know any physics, was just wondering if 2040 was actually a lot in some sense
08:11:26 <oklopol> and that sure sounds like a lot
08:11:52 <oklopol> hmm, actually based on the movies i've seen about space stuff, the atmosphere basically keeps us together
08:11:58 <oklopol> so i guess it's not that little
08:12:05 <coppro> 20km affects acceleration due to gravity by somewhere in the vicinity of 1%
08:12:25 <coppro> which isn't much, but if you're doing the calculus, it matters
08:12:40 <coppro> but I'm approximating anyways
08:12:45 <coppro> (this is assumed from sea level)
08:13:12 <coppro> or, err, actually average radius
08:13:19 <fizzie> oklopol: "Normal high pressure gas cylinders or bottles will hold from 200 to 400 atmosphere (unit)s." (According to the omniscipedia.)
08:13:47 <Ilari> APNIC pool: 39 212 032
08:13:58 <coppro> that's a depressing number
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08:14:33 <fizzie> So, when you're thirsty and it's -22 degrees Celsius out there, you should try something else than squeezing a block of ice to get some water to drink?
08:16:02 <fizzie> How low was it supposed to go, anyway?
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08:18:31 <Ilari> The esimated number at next allocation (triggering X-day): 32M-37M.
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08:21:56 <Ilari> Seemingly someone in the US allocated a /10...
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08:23:48 <Ilari> Now that kind of allocation from APNIC could be pretty much instant X-day...
08:28:28 <Ilari> So about 2M-7M left...
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10:12:21 <Vorpal> * quintopia steals all of vorpal's entropy <-- nasty
10:12:48 <oerjan> YOU CANNOT DO THAT WITHOUT APPLYING WORK
10:15:05 <Vorpal> oerjan, a friend gave me some for the purpose of this.
10:16:30 <Vorpal> time to fetch clog logs again. Should add a daily cron entry calling the downloading script
10:16:53 <Vorpal> currently it happens rather erratically
10:22:03 <oklopol> the japanese class is sneaky, i just realized all the frequent messages from the teacher are now in japanese, and i have no idea when that happened
10:23:09 <Vorpal> oklopol, then I guess that means you are getting the hang of the language
10:23:25 <oklopol> (except for a couple of translations in some messages, and complete translations in certain cases, maybe this was the first one without those)
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12:43:28 <Sgeo> I'm not sure that that's known
12:43:34 <Sgeo> It's certainly never been seen
12:43:57 <Sgeo> Should be determinable based on the source
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12:53:51 <j-invariant> Sgeo: I don't know if I went all the way around or just in a circle
12:54:14 <Sgeo> How many RL years were you travelling for?
12:55:10 <Sgeo> Oh, right, MC's closed-sourceish
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12:59:54 <fizzie> On some servers you can use the /spawn command to do that; in single-player, I'm not so sure.
13:01:27 <fizzie> You could in creative.
13:01:39 <fizzie> You definitely can by editing the save file, but that's kludgy.
13:02:02 <fizzie> Not /spawn, /setspawn or something.
13:04:39 <fizzie> According to Wikipedia, "the largest possible world size to date reaching the equivalent of nearly eight times the surface area of the Earth before running into technical limitations", but the citation attached refers to a pretty old blog post.
13:06:31 <fizzie> Protocol-wise sometimes it sends absolute position numbers given as signed 32-bit ints that indicate 1/32ths of a block; that would allow for a 2^27 x 2^27 block square.
13:08:08 <j-invariant> I thought it would juts be quite a small world
13:08:18 <fizzie> That would be quite a lot more than "eight times the surface area of the Earth", so perhaps there are other limitations.
13:08:59 <fizzie> Wikipedia says Earth has a surface area of 510,072,000 km^2; a 2^27 metre square has about 35 times that.
13:10:30 <fizzie> On our server the furthest place anyone's traveled has been about 140 kilometres away from the spawn, and that was enough to basically crash it, so I'm not sure how feasible an Earth-sized world is with the current architecture.
13:10:39 <fizzie> It will at least take a lot of disk space.
13:10:46 <oklopol> i should totally break that record manually
13:10:54 <j-invariant> the further you walk the more world it generates?
13:11:08 <oklopol> yeah, but doesn't it drop the stuff you didn't change?
13:11:16 <oklopol> answer to j, question to f
13:11:49 <fizzie> No, it just unloads those blocks on disk.
13:12:05 <fizzie> I don't think it ever shrinks the world.
13:12:38 <fizzie> I'm not entirely certain about that, though.
13:13:20 <fizzie> ineiros' file listings would probably answer that; if there's an unbroken path of chunks to the furthest point, then it probably doesn't.
13:13:44 <oklopol> can you hack your way in and check?
13:14:37 <fizzie> I could maybe just ask.
13:15:07 <oklopol> honestly didn't occur to me
13:16:39 <oklopol> next on the list was marrying him an infinite amount of times, and always getting half those files in the divorce
13:17:32 <fizzie> oklopol: Constantly walking into one direction for 8 hours should (if I calculated right) give you the coveted "been furthest away" award (well, assuming you wouldn't have to go around mountains or anything). As well as create about ten thousand files (around a hundred megabytes, maybe) on his disk.
13:18:04 <oklopol> 8 hours isn't exactly a long walk
13:18:17 <fizzie> Based on someone's forum-post saying walking speed is "about 5 blocks/second".
13:18:45 <oklopol> well, 80 hours isn't a long walk, as a project
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13:19:22 <fizzie> Yes, that'd be about 144 kilometres.
13:19:28 <oklopol> well. maybe it's slightly over medium, since it's not *that* much fun without far
13:19:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure the "5 blocks/s" is in fact accurate.
13:19:44 <oklopol> that's weird, since you can't walk that much in 8 hours
13:19:55 <fizzie> That's 18 km/h, it sounds a bit fast for a walk.
13:20:09 <oklopol> oh right 5 blocks a second is not 5km/h
13:21:03 <fizzie> Minecart max speed is 8 blocks/s, according to Minepedia, but I'm not sure how to compare. It does feel a lot faster than walking.
13:21:08 <fizzie> I saw a travel speed table somewhere.
13:21:47 <fizzie> 4.27 m/s, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Transportation
13:21:52 <oklopol> well note that i would probably not do it by running straight ahead, but strolling away, looking at the world
13:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite possibly the funniest thing Fox News has ever done.
13:22:33 <fizzie> Well, assuming 2 blocks/sec of actual progress, that'd be 20 hours.
13:24:35 <oklopol> "and that simple contact could be all that pedophile needs to fulfill his fantasies for the day"
13:25:35 <oklopol> erm, currently i'm just making a base, but i feel kinda nomadish after that short talk
13:25:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: He wanted to be the guy who's been furthest away from spawn, so I was computerizing how much walking would it take to get to (100k,100k).
13:26:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's not that much: 8 hours if you could proceed with maximum walking speed to one direction; 20 hours might be realistic, even.
13:26:52 <fizzie> j-invariant: You can't die on that server.
13:27:11 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you'd be a FILTHY CHEATER.
13:27:17 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: that wouldn't really change anything
13:27:42 <oklopol> going farthest is the inspiration, not an actual goal
13:28:03 <fizzie> oklopol: You could try walking 100 km to bring visibility for some charity, I hear that's very popular.
13:28:23 <oklopol> walking 100km irl isn't much of a project either
13:28:38 <oklopol> we did this rather spontaneous 80km walk one weekend
13:28:43 <fizzie> Yes, but on-server there'd be a large audience.
13:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> You can then say to everyone you walked the distance through the world!
13:30:18 <fizzie> That's not quite the whole world.
13:30:50 <fizzie> It's not that either, I don't think.
13:31:16 <fizzie> Because some protocol messages use absolute-integer coordinates that denote 1/32ths of a block; that'd be 2^27 metres.
13:31:31 <oklopol> also i might not have that much time for mc now since i just realized courses + other stuff actually take quite a lot of time, so dunno
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13:31:52 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Ohhh, right.
13:32:05 <oklopol> there is no "distance through the world" in mc
13:32:23 <oklopol> that would be nicer than the current fixed height tho
13:32:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: IRL the Earth's circumference is 40 Mm; 40k kilometres.
13:34:08 <fizzie> oklopol: It's the distance from the center to the surface, approximately.
13:34:12 <oklopol> no that was a pun that made no sense
13:34:42 <oklopol> anyway earth's is a mean radius
13:34:58 <fizzie> I completely failed to catch that.
13:35:40 <oklopol> well it doesn't have two parsings
13:35:50 <oklopol> i couldn't think of one that does
13:35:52 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <oklopol> no that was a pun that made no sense
13:36:52 <oklopol> but with that mean-ing of mean, everything technically works
13:37:00 <oklopol> erm, everything with mean radius that is
13:37:24 <fizzie> Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS).
13:37:25 <HackEgo> 267) <oklopol> no that was a pun that made no sense
13:38:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ineiros, hey, can we have an unmodified SMP server while we wait for hMod to update?
13:38:49 * Sgeo is in a weird mood today
13:39:06 <totem> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ
13:39:25 <fizzie> Then again, hMod shouldn't take too long: the github repo has a "NON WORKING beta 1.2 release, DEVELOPERS ONLY" already.
13:39:34 <fizzie> Oh, whoops, I misread that as "NOW WORKING".
13:40:01 <fizzie> Oh well, it's just one more line.
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14:05:44 * cheater00 puts oklopol in a simulation of conway's game of DEATH!!#$!$#
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14:18:46 <Sgeo> Is it really worth it to make cake?
14:20:50 <fizzie> It's a principle thing, I think: it's cake, after all.
14:20:59 <fizzie> All new recipes should be crafted at least once.
14:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It regenerates a total of 9 hearts and you can stagger it.
14:21:42 <fizzie> "Minecraft Beta 1.2_01 (less bugs, more framerates)"
14:21:46 <fizzie> Well, that didn't take long.
14:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So have a single cake in your shelter, and use it when you get hurt.
14:22:28 <fizzie> "* Added a temporary fix to get rid of chunk visibility errors
14:22:28 <fizzie> The last one is interesting.. The problem with chunk visibility errors was that for some reason the “dirty” flag on chunks and the list of “dirty chunks” got out of synch. There wasn’t time to try to do a proper fix today, so I just made the client check a couple of dirty chunks per frame to make sure they’re in the list.
14:22:28 <fizzie> So until we fix it proper, you might get invisible chunks, but they will fix themselves after a second or two, usually way before you even get close to them."
14:22:38 <fizzie> How very shotgun-codingy.
14:23:12 <Sgeo> O, you can't put cake in the hand to use it?
14:24:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Because you can use it 6 times, which doesn't work with MC's eating system.
14:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have the smegging Serenity theme stuck in my head...
14:25:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't even watched Firefly! It's just latched onto my brain and it won't let go!
14:25:03 <Sgeo> How is block resistence n/a?
14:25:12 <Sgeo> It's a block, isn't it?
14:27:28 <Sgeo> Now that charcoal exists, is there a point to regular coal?
14:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, you know that block resistance measures the damage from TNT?
14:27:52 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, vaguely
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14:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, yes, i.e. that it's a lot less resource-intensive to mine coal than to smelt lots of wood.
14:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, turns out that you can make bonemeal into any other dye.
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14:31:49 <Sgeo> "Bone meal is used to make white wool by crafting one Wool block with bone meal above it."
14:33:29 <fizzie> "Sheep can also have their wool dyed by directly using dye (right clicking) on them. When a dyed Sheep is attacked it will drop coloured wool in the same way normal sheep drop their wool. This can be useful because you can obtain multiple coloured wool blocks from a single Sheep, instead of getting just one block from the crafting process."
14:33:56 <fizzie> I'm feel like painting all on-server sheep pink.
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14:37:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, is the server updated?
14:37:55 <fizzie> Just for future reference.
14:40:30 <j-invariant> like if you break the block without you just get nothing?
14:42:08 <fizzie> But a wooden pick is good enough.
14:43:05 <j-invariant> fizzie: I ust wasted two blocks of coal ;_;
14:43:43 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: I tried making a farm but if you run too far away the animals disappear
14:43:49 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: like even if they are completely trapped
14:44:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Nice sound.
14:45:38 <j-invariant> wow tta's like an arrow cannon why does that work?
14:46:50 <fizzie> Dispenser + clock circuit, isn't that quite simple.
14:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw&feature=player_embedded
14:48:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes?
14:48:34 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, the trick is getting a very high-speed oscillator.
14:48:38 <j-invariant> or is that some kind of unintended consequence
14:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Dispensers eject their contents when they receive a redstone charge.
14:49:24 <fizzie> I can't say I understand redstone oscillators either, but they're well-known things, you can find designs in the web.
14:50:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The moment when that video actually scrolls up was very impressive.
14:51:53 <fizzie> I would assume some sort of a trick has been used to fill all those guns with eggs, though.
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15:04:18 * Sgeo is leaving soon
15:04:33 <Sgeo> To wait 5 hours to see someone for 1.5 hours :/
15:06:10 <Sgeo> By waiting, I mean most of the time will be commutting
15:06:12 <Phantom_Hoover> (I can't think of a suitable Katie A.T. comment here. Submissions are welcomed.)
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15:08:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so how many bugs did the new version add?
15:08:54 <fizzie> Something about commuting and the AT-AT walker, maybe.
15:09:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well there is a _01 version
15:10:47 <Vorpal> oh and they added the bug fixes from optimine it seems
15:11:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The top speed of AT-AT is 60 km/h, maybe you could work that in too somehow.
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15:11:51 <Vorpal> oh and gold tools got a boost, but not when it comes to durability
15:12:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I have decided that as soon as the server updates Mt. Hoover must get a repeating double-barrel arrow machine gun.
15:12:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I agree, but only if we also get creepers.
15:13:09 <Vorpal> I hope we don't get creepers
15:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps we could do that SMP airbase thing while we wait for hMod to update.
15:13:28 <elliott> 00:12:51 <fizzie> "While the copyright of the play Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J. M. Barrie has expired in the United Kingdom, it was granted a special exception under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (Schedule 6)[33] that requires royalties to be paid for performances within the UK, so long as Great Ormond Street Hospital (to whom Barrie gave the rights) continues to exist."
15:13:47 <elliott> Vorpal: You have diamond armour and probably more than one diamond sword.
15:13:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I do not have diamond armour
15:14:00 <elliott> As well as an almost-inaccessible-for-mobs, completely-protected castle.
15:14:02 <elliott> You have literally nothing to fear.
15:14:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, you can trivially get it.
15:14:16 <elliott> Assuming you nabbed diamond from spawn when you could which I find likely.
15:14:17 <Gregor> elliott: Surely that's not recognized in any other country?
15:14:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but we'll obviously set creepers off everywhere on top of Mt. Vorpal.
15:14:52 <fizzie> Gregor: Well, it's only royalties for performances in the UK, not "proper" copyright-as-in-actually-control-the-rights thing. But still.
15:14:55 <elliott> Gregor: Still, ugh -- can you imagine trying to overturn that? "But what about the children!" (Great Ormond Street is a children's hospital.)
15:15:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I read that as that they are turned off
15:15:22 <Gregor> elliott: WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!
15:15:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I think children should be banned just so people can't pull that crap.
15:15:49 <Gregor> elliott: So what if a different children's hospital wants to put on a performance of it :P
15:16:06 <elliott> Gregor: THEY HAVE TO TURN OFF LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS TO RAISE MONEY TO GIVE TO THE EVIL, CORPORATE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL.
15:16:15 <elliott> WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!?!?!?!
15:16:38 <Gregor> Eh, they'll live so long as their medicinal colon pipes are in place.
15:17:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> Assuming you nabbed diamond from spawn when you could which I find likely. <-- I wish I had...
15:17:17 <elliott> Not if some paedophile seizes them, Gregor.
15:17:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Just ask server for diamond, the chest not working is a mere bug.
15:17:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm sure you'd get it.
15:17:44 <Sgeo> Bye elliott and all
15:17:58 <Sgeo> [Well, I might be here a few more minutes. Don't rely on it though]
15:18:01 <Vorpal> elliott, still you don't even have somewhere to hide at night.
15:18:29 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: When the KT-AT's rocking, you'd better not come a'knocking.
15:18:29 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but I have enough diamond blocks from spawn to make diamond armour and a sword.
15:18:30 -!- totem has left (?).
15:18:39 <elliott> Vorpal: And with that you don't _need_ a house.
15:18:47 <fizzie> (Based on the movie, those things seemed pretty wobbly.)
15:18:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you have that locally or have you tried it on a test server?
15:18:57 <Phantom_Hoover> No, he said that it was 5 hours for a sum total of half an hour of whatever the hell it is he plans to do.
15:19:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I have; you kill skeletons in two hits.
15:19:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, still you don't even have somewhere to hide at night.
15:19:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Do you have that locally or have you tried it on a test server? <-- tried what?
15:19:33 <fizzie> elliott: 5 hours of travel for 1.5 hours of "action".
15:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> He has a share in HHI, and as such can use corporate shelters.
15:19:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Diamond armour + sword.
15:20:10 <elliott> fizzie: Couldn't they just use a hotel?
15:20:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well I made some just now on ineiros' server
15:20:19 <elliott> I don't think they need to go to the Australian outback for some privacy.
15:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, with a dad like that, who knows
15:21:07 <elliott> They turn around and he's been following them ALL THIS TIME
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15:21:32 <elliott> j-invariant: Sgeo is in Australia
15:21:46 <elliott> j-invariant: what do you mean?
15:21:52 <elliott> also lol @ _01, i wonder what notch broke
15:22:02 <elliott> j-invariant: All water comes from nowhere.
15:22:07 <elliott> j-invariant: It's a water block.
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15:22:13 <j-invariant> minecraft does not have conservation of mass
15:22:13 <elliott> Just like at the edges of pools, say.
15:22:16 <elliott> And it flows down from there.
15:22:24 <elliott> j-invariant: All waterfalls are like that.
15:22:30 <elliott> j-invariant: (only 3 torches?)
15:22:36 <Sgeo> >.> we're not doing anything
15:23:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "The last one is interesting.. The problem with chunk visibility errors was that for some reason the “dirty” flag on chunks and the list of “dirty chunks” got out of synch. There wasn’t time to try to do a proper fix today, so I just made the client check a couple of dirty chunks per frame to make sure they’re in the list."
15:23:10 <elliott> Sgeo: [I am watching you. --your dad, proxying]
15:23:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So what's the secret useful block?
15:24:08 <elliott> ineiros: UPDATE THE SERVER
15:24:15 <nooga> is there something interesting in nether?
15:24:57 <Vorpal> ineiros, wait with updating server until hmod is updated (or bukkit is out)
15:25:06 <Vorpal> elliott, just use the alternative laucher to play
15:25:09 <elliott> Vorpal: hMod will never be updated.
15:25:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well wait for bukkit then
15:25:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Bukkit is not going to be stable for a _while_.
15:25:30 <elliott> They haven't even released a pre-alpha build yet.
15:25:39 <elliott> There is nothing wrong with the vanilla server, just don't make any big jumps.
15:25:43 <elliott> It's not like you do anyway, thanks to armour.
15:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well iirc hmod was going to be upgraded until hmod was out
15:25:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Allow me to quote.
15:25:56 <Vorpal> elliott, if I do that I take armour off.
15:26:01 <elliott> Although people have already been under the impression that we pledged to keep hMod up to date, this isn't the case. Prior to this announcement, we had not stated anywhere that we would be maintaining hMod and anyone believing otherwise was mistaken. However, we do recognise the predicament we've put server admins in as hey0 has announced that hMod is essentially no more, and Bukkit is not ready for public consumption yet.
15:26:02 <Phantom_Hoover> [[We will try and update hMod (at least this time)]] — Bukkit devs.
15:26:10 <elliott> Apparently the Bukkit team are "trying" to update hMod.
15:26:13 <elliott> But I wouldn't rely on it.
15:26:28 <elliott> It will take longer then the original beta update, I would bet.
15:26:35 <elliott> So I would just use the vanilla server for now.
15:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott, just use the alternative launcher
15:26:56 <elliott> I've already updated, and I want lapis lazuli.
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15:27:14 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't have a backup? Well I could send you my files then
15:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, relevant: bonemeal can be turned into lapis lazuli.
15:27:27 <elliott> Vorpal: I think you're missing something here: I _want_ to be updated.
15:27:32 <elliott> Vorpal: What exactly is wrong with the vanilla server?
15:27:38 <elliott> ineiros used it before and there were no problems.
15:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, no /home or /spawn
15:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Problem: we don't have bonemeal unless monsters are on.
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15:27:55 <elliott> It's not like you can't find Mount Vorpal.
15:28:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Less of a bugger than not having the newest version
15:28:15 <Vorpal> elliott, not really no. The current version works fine.
15:28:22 <Vorpal> but sure, as long as monsters are off.
15:28:53 <elliott> Current version isn't fine for anyone who's using the latest version in their single-player game
15:29:11 <Vorpal> elliott, easy to switch. just an mv
15:29:24 <Vorpal> elliott, and you always made backup of old version before
15:29:29 <Vorpal> so I would assume you have that now too
15:29:35 <elliott> No, I didn't, because I realise it'll only be useful for a few days.
15:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well then I can send you my files if you want.
15:30:24 <elliott> I'd rather ineiros updates :-P
15:30:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway no glass kit, no other kit either if you play without a mod
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15:31:07 <elliott> It's not like glass is being used much.
15:31:16 <elliott> And it's not like our tools are going to wear out in the next, uh, 100 years or so.
15:31:29 <fizzie> There is a "non-working" 1.2 hMod in th github, so someone's doing something, at least.
15:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, actually, shovels can wear out surprisingly quickly.
15:31:44 <elliott> OH NO GRASS WILL TAKE HALF A SECOND TO DIG!!!!!!!!!!
15:31:51 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, relevant: bonemeal can be turned into lapis lazuli. <-- how?
15:32:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there is no mention on the wiki of that
15:32:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Advantage of latest beta: Coal is completely renewable.
15:32:15 <elliott> Vorpal: With a tree farm, you can turn 0 coal into 1,000,000 coal.
15:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, that is a minor advantage.
15:32:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Why? Wood can be smelted into 8 coal.
15:32:31 <elliott> Coal is the most useful fucking ore in the game.
15:32:35 <elliott> You have like 70 furnaces.
15:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, disadvantage: no hmod or bukkit yet
15:33:03 <elliott> Vorpal: ... seriously, how often do you use hMod commands? /home, /spawn, maybe.
15:33:08 <elliott> Health? You never do anything dangerous anyway.
15:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> We have enough iron stocks to offset health considerably anyway.
15:33:32 <elliott> How often do you use that?
15:33:35 <elliott> There's (1) glass and (2) tools.
15:33:41 <Vorpal> elliott, twice the last few hours. Been mining.
15:33:42 <elliott> You already have tools. Probably backups knowing you.
15:33:55 <elliott> Mining? Don't you have EVERY ORE EVER?
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15:34:19 <Vorpal> elliott, mining is also fun. Since I combined it with spelunking
15:34:33 <Vorpal> and without spelunking, what is the point of minecraft?
15:35:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and health off is important.
15:36:29 <elliott> You always do things the safest way. You rarely jump far.
15:36:37 <cheater00> is there a language with a continuous address space?
15:36:38 <elliott> How on EARTH is health a problem for you?
15:36:44 <Vorpal> elliott, never wondered why I had no armour the last few weeks?
15:36:47 <Vorpal> elliott, because it broke
15:37:15 <elliott> Vorpal: How did you lose health?
15:37:30 <Vorpal> elliott, fall damage mostly
15:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, given the health regenerates and armour doesn't, it's not too big a deal.
15:37:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Are you too stupid to see what's right ahead of you??
15:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Just don't jump down 20-metre drops and you'll be fine.
15:37:49 <elliott> Vorpal: But yeah, as Phantom_Hoover said, health regenerate.
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15:37:58 <elliott> I doubt you could die without being incredibly wilfully stupid.
15:38:00 <Vorpal> elliott, only if monsters are off though
15:38:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, you think ineiros is going to turn monsters on?
15:38:25 <elliott> "Oh, I was going to wait for hMod, BUT INSTEAD I TURNED MONSTERS AND PVP ON AND THEN DESTROYED YOUR HOUSE, ENJOY."
15:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, who knows. Has he been near alcohol?
15:38:39 <elliott> Ah, right, I forgot, alcohol turns people into abject morons in Vorpal-land.
15:38:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well remember hell world?
15:39:08 <elliott> Note how that had no lasting effects and did not take place in the actual world.
15:39:13 <elliott> Note how it happened only because of lots of invalid moving going on.
15:39:18 <elliott> Note how you're making no sense whatsoever.
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15:40:16 <fizzie> cheater00: Someone on comp.lang.c seriously suggested extending C so that floats can be used as array indices to access individual bits of the bytes.
15:40:47 <cheater00> fizzie: i was more thinking about arbitrary-precision definitions of data
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15:41:03 <cheater00> but i can see how floats would be fun there :D
15:41:04 <elliott> cheater00: the Infinity Machine has infinite-sequence-of-bits addressed memory.
15:41:13 <elliott> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
15:41:32 <elliott> An infinite sequence of bits is the same as a real.
15:41:37 <cheater00> elliott: the practical side of things will probably be very different.
15:41:39 <elliott> Don't disagree with that, because you'll be wrong.
15:41:45 <elliott> cheater00: This is not practical in any way, shape, or form.
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15:45:59 <cheater00> i'm installing half of windows on my ubuntu right now. meh
15:46:19 <j-invariant> I always thought it was rubbish so I never bothered
15:46:33 <cheater00> and this means i need to run winetricks
15:46:50 <j-invariant> I used to use Mac OS but I don't like apple any more
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15:47:20 <j-invariant> I think apple used to be a good company but they have rotted and now they push DRM etc etc
15:47:24 <elliott> j-invariant: i hate apple, just bought an apple machine, and don't use mac os on it
15:47:42 <j-invariant> yeah I couldn't install any GNU/Linux system of my mac
15:48:05 <cheater00> elliott: YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT
15:48:25 <elliott> *GNU/Linux/X.org/util-linux-ng/cron/...
15:48:48 <elliott> The providers of the X11 server. The term GNU/Linux is frankly offensive.
15:49:00 <cheater00> is that a kernel for the GNU operating system?
15:49:05 <j-invariant> Linux is a made up operating system from the hit TV series "The IT Crowd"
15:49:05 <elliott> No, GNU did _not_ provide all the software required to run this Linux machine.
15:49:17 <elliott> They don't get the right to the name just because they wrote the coreutils.
15:49:51 <elliott> j-invariant: Citation for what exactly?
15:50:03 <cheater00> elliott: for the fact that GNU did not make ALL of Linux
15:50:10 <elliott> j-invariant: That's a personal, subjective opinion.
15:50:16 <elliott> j-invariant: How am I supposed to provide a citation for it?
15:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> If you use non-GNU software integrally to your OS, "GNU/Linux" is inaccurate.
15:50:57 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: what about GNU+Linux?
15:50:59 <elliott> "Linux" is more acceptable since it is almost universally used as a generic term for a Linux-based operating system; "the Linux kernel" is more commonly used to refer to the kernel itself.
15:51:17 <elliott> "GNU/Linux" manages, by omission, to disregard all the other important parties who wrote software to make a modern Linux OS work fully.
15:51:24 <elliott> rms enjoys overstating GNU's efforts.
15:51:41 <elliott> j-invariant: As I said: Linux is used as a generic name to refer to a Linux-based operating system.
15:51:52 <elliott> j-invariant: "GNU/Linux" is explicitly defined, and exclusively used, as referring to Linux as a kernel.
15:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, you still haven't demonstrated that you aren't English and as such should not be ignored, BtW.
15:52:02 <elliott> Therefore, "GNU/Linux" disregards more efforts than "Linux".
15:52:11 <elliott> And also puts GNU in an unwarranted position of importance.
15:52:38 <elliott> And, uh, kFreeBSD if you use Debian :-P
15:52:48 <elliott> Except that uses BSD libc I think. Or does it? I don't know. Maybe not.
15:53:42 <cheater00> the three kernels of the ELLIOTT operating system.
15:53:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ ask bf do ft id msg pl rc v wn
15:54:15 <cheater00> are there any kernels being developed for lambda machines?
15:54:32 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:54:44 <elliott> !bf_txtgen rambunctiability
15:54:55 <elliott> cheater00: Uh, Genera is still sold but not maintained.
15:55:03 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: when, in such a fun thing! just foaming at the
15:55:18 <cheater00> doesn't the GNU operating system (emacs) work on lisp machines?
15:56:10 <elliott> cheater00: Symbolics machines came with Zmacs.
15:56:21 <EgoBot> 136 ++++++++++++++[>+>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>-.<<-----.>.<++++++++.-------.>+.<++++++.>++++++.>.+.+++++++.+++.<.<.+++++.<----. [700]
15:56:23 <elliott> cheater00: Well, and all other Lisp Machines.
15:56:28 <elliott> "Zmacs was written for the MIT Lisp machine and runs on its descendants (Symbolics Genera, LMI Lambda, TI Explorer). Zmacs is written in Lisp Machine Lisp (called ZetaLisp on Symbolics Lisp Machines)."
15:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> @bf ++++++++++++++[>+>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>-.<<-----.>.<++++++++.-------.>+.<++++++.>++++++.>.+.+++++++.+++.<.<.+++++.<----.
15:57:47 <cheater00> i can hear a lot of teen girls outside my door
15:58:04 <elliott> !bf_txtgen On Thinkable Forms, with notes towards a Logical Imaging Technique
15:58:08 <EgoBot> 653 ++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++++>+++<<<<-]>-----.>++.>>----.<<<+++++.++++++++++++++++++++.+.>.---.<--------.+.>+.<+++.>>>.<--.<<++++++++++.+++.>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>++++++++++++.------------.<++++.<---.>---.<-.>>.<<<----.+.>>.<---.>-.>.<+.-----.++++++++.<----.<+++.>+++.>----.>.<<---.>>.<<---------------------.>----.<<-----------.++.------.--.>>---.>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
16:00:16 <nooga> i should generate a new world after update
16:00:27 <nooga> to mine new blocks, right?
16:00:41 <nooga> or just move around to generate new chunks?
16:01:33 <elliott> nooga: you may want to use a mapping tool to find where the nearest unloaded part is
16:02:21 <elliott> fizzie: "Oh look, flight in Beta." http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=131336&sid=9ad025becbbe3a02f18bb7fa340b6670
16:02:24 <elliott> fizzie: Bat -- out of the cag.
16:06:42 <nooga> cheater00 is not back
16:07:11 <nooga> oh i thought the girls
16:07:27 <nooga> what were they doing there?
16:07:45 <cheater00> i live in a big house that has two ballrooms
16:07:54 <cheater00> since monday they're being used for a ballet school
16:08:15 <cheater00> the teacher is all like "hey wanna join the classez"
16:08:43 <cheater00> and i'm mostly like "i'll have to see which group i like most"
16:10:40 <j-invariant> elliott: You know what really really irritates me
16:10:52 <elliott> j-invariant: No, no I don't
16:11:02 <j-invariant> when people say "yes, yes it is" or whatever
16:11:27 <elliott> It's for emphasis, welcome to language :P
16:12:08 <copumpkin> you mean "I'm not _not_ sad" doesn't mean exactly that you're sad??
16:16:51 <j-invariant> What we say is that you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit. The principal developer is the GNU Project, and the system is basically GNU.
16:16:54 <j-invariant> If you feel even more strongly about giving credit where it is due, you might feel that some secondary contributors also deserve credit in the system's name. If so, far be it from us to argue against it. If you feel that X11 deserves credit in the system's name, and you want to call the system GNU/X11/Linux, please do. If you feel that Perl simply cries out for mention, and you want to write GNU/Linux/Perl, go ahead.
16:17:00 <j-invariant> Since a long name such as GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv becomes absurd, at some point you will have to set a threshold and omit the names of the many other secondary contributions. There is no one obvious right place to set the threshold, so wherever you set it, we won't argue against it.
16:17:05 <j-invariant> Different threshold levels would lead to different choices of name for the system. But one name that cannot result from concerns of fairness and giving credit, not for any possible threshold level, is “Linux”. It can't be fair to give all the credit to one secondary contribution (Linux) while omitting the principal contribution (GNU).
16:18:10 <elliott> j-invariant: GNU is not the principal contributor to Linux.
16:18:31 <elliott> Additionally "Linux" as a name does NOT refer to the kernel, it refers to the kernel PLUS all the additional software. That is how the terminology has evolved.
16:18:41 <elliott> Claiming otherwise is dishonest.
16:19:43 <elliott> j-invariant: Because it distorts the facts in a way that makes GNU look more important than they are, to serve something GNU wants (for people to call it GNU/Linux).
16:21:16 <Vorpal> j-invariant, "GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv" <-- interesting product
16:21:31 * Vorpal tries to figure out what combining perl, tex and python would do
16:21:33 <elliott> j-invariant: For instance "GNU is the principal contributor to a full Linux-based system" is incorrect.
16:22:00 <Vorpal> (yeah yeah, not meant like that)
16:22:06 <elliott> There is no one principal contributor.
16:22:15 <j-invariant> In 2008, we found that GNU packages made up 15% of the “main” repository of the gNewSense GNU/Linux distribution. Linux made up 1.5%. So the same argument would apply even more strongly to calling it “Linux”.
16:22:26 <elliott> j-invariant: Package count is irrelevant.
16:22:45 <elliott> j-invariant: gNewSense is a biased source; it is a GNU project that refuses to package software the FSF doesn't consider a suitable part of a Free system, this includes Firefox.
16:22:53 <elliott> They instead package a GNU fork of Firefox, artificially inflating the GNU count here. etc.
16:23:01 <Vorpal> j-invariant, Linux deserves a mention. It is the kernel after all. Same goes for any other kernel.
16:23:17 <elliott> If Ubuntu replaced the GNU coreutils with a fully-featured BusyBox tomorrow, yes, the system would be different, but the essential use of the system for 90% of its users would be very, very similar.
16:23:21 <Vorpal> at least more than the userland does
16:23:29 <elliott> Debian and Ubuntu already use a non-GNU C library -- eglibc, a fork of the GNU libc.
16:23:43 <elliott> Even then, they could use a fully-featured uClibc and the system would still be very similar.
16:23:48 <elliott> Not the same, but similar.
16:23:55 <elliott> j-invariant: Heck, for most users of Ubuntu, the main contributor is GNOME.
16:24:01 <elliott> That is a GNU project, yes.
16:24:02 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I would react, mostly because much of my .bashrc would be broken :P
16:24:09 <elliott> j-invariant: I have a dormant distribution project.
16:24:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I said similar for most users.
16:24:21 <elliott> j-invariant: What's... KDE?
16:24:29 <elliott> Is that the question you are actually asking...?
16:24:52 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I could survive. Might patch busybox grep to add --colour=auto or such. And a few small things like that
16:25:12 <elliott> Notably it gives me good grounds to claim that GNU is not an essential part of Linux systems; I (was going to) use uClibc and BusyBox.
16:25:36 <elliott> Leaving the main GNU software being, uh, the core compilation tools (binutils and gcc), and Emacs.
16:25:52 <elliott> If you're a vi fan and use clang, that's reduced to just binutils.
16:26:09 <Vorpal> elliott, btw do you know any better way than temporarily changing the /bin/sh symlink to bash from dash when a build system refuses to work with dash as /bin/sh. In this case it was some sub-configure of older binutils that I needed to a cross tolchain (no support for that target in recent binutils)
16:26:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Gregor has the solution to that.
16:26:26 <Vorpal> or was it a sub-configure of old gcc? hm. One of them
16:26:45 <elliott> Let's see, what would the syntax be...
16:26:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well, something that works with minimal work. Something that is easier than sudo -s and changing the symlink around
16:27:00 <Vorpal> elliott, like setting an env variable or something
16:27:01 <elliott> Vorpal: $ sps with 'sh == bash' -- ./configure
16:27:12 <elliott> Assuming == is the syntax for setting the selected metapackage or whatever.
16:27:23 <Vorpal> elliott, takes more work since I would need to install that and so on.
16:27:34 <elliott> Vorpal: "How can I solve this problem without changing anything?" You can't.
16:28:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well I had a vague memory that make had some MAKE_SHELL_TO_BE_USED env var.
16:28:04 <Vorpal> (with some other name)
16:28:10 <elliott> Vorpal: How about $ find . | xargs sed -i 's,/bin/sh,bash,g'
16:28:23 <elliott> Also, confgure isn't make.
16:28:36 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, but I was hoping it had something similar
16:28:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you know, it has CC, LD, and what not
16:29:20 <elliott> if ! [ "x$SH" = "x" ]; then
16:29:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well the issue here was that it was in a subconfigure. And also I think inside a statement using sh -c or similar
16:29:34 <elliott> if ! [ "$SH" = "/bin/sh" ]; then
16:29:57 <elliott> (Verbosity added due to configure working on ANY SYSTEM YOU WANT, so long as it's GNU.)
16:30:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well just doing bash ./configure would work EXCEPT that it was one of the damn recursive configures that was invoked after you run make
16:30:25 <elliott> Throw it out and write your own program.
16:30:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh wow, with that SH thing, you could do
16:30:47 <Vorpal> elliott, for older gcc you did a cross toolchain by cd gcc-source && ln -s ../binutils-source/foo
16:31:23 <Vorpal> elliott, and then you built gcc and binutils together at once
16:32:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I had to patch gcc configure since it grepped configure.ac of binutils for the version of it, and depended on a specific whitespace length for indentation. Which was no longer the case.
16:32:48 <Vorpal> elliott, gnu buildsystem eh?
16:33:06 <elliott> But don't you know, it's _portable_.
16:33:13 <Vorpal> elliott, except not between versions
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16:39:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Get that APT developer over here to tell me how to write cabal2deb.
16:40:43 <Vorpal> elliott, over here, why not go to where that guy is
16:41:14 <elliott> Also ostensibly minorly incompetent.
16:42:29 <elliott> Strike ostensibly, minorly, insert incredibly.
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16:50:28 <Phantom_Hoover> (And probably failed Higher maths, which is an exercise in stupidity.)
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16:53:11 <SgeoN1> It wont take as long as I thought to get there, or to wait once I'm there. I miscounted
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16:54:38 <SgeoN1> A detour around a train station my dad said was unsafe
16:54:58 <SgeoN1> Also, me preferring tl be an hour early than a little late
16:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact, you will have to pay me not to go through with it.
16:56:11 <SgeoN1> It would have only saved 20 min or so to use that route, and due to my wish to be early I would have left the house at the same time
16:56:58 <elliott> There's this film noir mafia train station in my head and I love it.
16:59:00 <SgeoN1> There better be a place to sit
16:59:36 <SgeoN1> Going to save battery. Bye.
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17:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "Don't go through that station, Seth. THERE MIGHT NOT BE A PLACE TO SIT"
17:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> If this conversation did not take place someone will die.
17:00:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh, best part of Incompetent APT Guy: despite having evidently no aptitude for mathematics whatsoever, he wants to do CS at university
17:01:38 <j-invariant> today, CS is for people who "can't do math"
17:01:41 <elliott> Seth... that station be grue territory. Don't go/
17:02:35 <elliott> j-invariant: there are good CS curricula out there ... but ...
17:03:23 <elliott> i suspect scotland of holding them hostage from the rest of the world
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17:04:35 <elliott> oxford apparently uses Haskell and Oberon for first-years, which is an... interesting combination
17:05:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i suspect scotland of holding them hostage from the rest of the world ← hm?
17:05:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Think Epigram.
17:06:31 <elliott> Indeed. Perhaps I shall step in front of a train.
17:06:50 <elliott> What, someone actually uses csh.
17:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, it's not just that he can't do maths, he's doing Higher /again/.
17:08:05 <elliott> Meanwhile: "Gnus is an awesome mail and news reader, but it can be a bit of a performance bear, especially when using IMAP. Since Emacs is single-threaded, IMAP operations that take too long can disconnect you from IRC, Jabber, or any number of other network services you also use from Emacs."
17:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> This implies he either failed or got an abysmal mark when he first did it.
17:08:11 <j-invariant> wait I don't even know who you are talking about
17:09:28 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, just so you know, Higher maths goes no further than basic calculus.
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17:09:59 <elliott> i was just thinking about scapegoat actually
17:10:12 <pikhq> elliott: ... Emacs is single-threaded? Wow. It's even more of a hack than I thought.
17:10:19 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, a guy at my school who is an APT developer or somesuch.
17:10:19 <elliott> pikhq: You didn't know that?
17:10:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm fairly sure he hasn't actually submitted any code for apt.
17:10:46 <j-invariant> if he hacks on some serious software he probably has some ability
17:11:04 <j-invariant> I would put not being skilled at mathematics down to the low quality of mathematics education in general
17:11:12 <elliott> j-invariant: As I said, he doesn't actually code apt.
17:11:17 <elliott> He just creates deb packages.
17:11:24 <elliott> Seemingly limited to applying other people's debdiffs.
17:11:28 <elliott> At least that's what I could find.
17:11:51 <elliott> That would likely be living hell and Phantom_Hoover has other things he has to do.
17:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> He is also doing Advanced Higher computing, which, given my understanding of the SQA computing curricula, is probably just going to make him even worse at coding.
17:13:17 <pikhq> Well. I suppose they do actually run on DOS still.
17:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I was deleting the "higher mathematics" to leave "curriculum" in Google, then started typing "advanced" at the start... and it came up with "advanced kindergarten curriculum".
17:13:45 <elliott> ais523: can I ask you a scapegoat question?
17:13:56 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Fingerpainting and quantum physics!
17:14:08 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY, need to see the AH computing curriculum to see if it's contempt-worthy.
17:15:17 <j-invariant> 17:14 * Phantom_Hoover despairs at the world.
17:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, what can I do? I never exactly learned to program in any well-defined way myself.
17:16:50 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: you could learn some things from books
17:17:57 <elliott> j-invariant: why should he teach him how to program
17:18:00 <pikhq> So, SCEA v. George Hotz et al. is currently having a hearing regarding SCEA's motion for a temporary restraining order...
17:18:06 <pikhq> Wonder how that's going down.
17:18:12 <elliott> why do you believe he wants to be taught, he believes he can program already i gather
17:18:16 <elliott> j-invariant: how would it help Phantom_Hoover
17:18:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I could always just chuck SICP at him and hope it sticks.
17:18:27 <elliott> j-invariant: how would it help Phantom_Hoover?
17:18:56 <elliott> j-invariant: I think Phantom_Hoover is competent enough already
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17:20:13 <pikhq> Formal education in programming is, frankly, not helpful until you've got a general idea how it all works *anyways*...
17:20:15 <j-invariant> elliott: that's daft, you can always learn more
17:20:34 <elliott> j-invariant: not by teaching someone who already thinks he can program and has Strong Opinions that are wrong
17:20:46 <quintopia> how to program is a silly subject. algorithms and proofs thereof is where it's at, man
17:20:47 <pikhq> And heck, even formal "intro to programming" classes understand that. They pretty much go as far as "I want you to program this."
17:21:08 <elliott> ais523: when you append a file to a directory, you also put the objects (StartOfFile <filehash>) and (EndOfFile <filehash>) in the database, right?
17:21:12 <ais523> near-guaranteed way to spot spam #n+1: the body of the email asks you to contact an email address, claiming it's the author's, but which doesn't match the from or reply-to fields
17:21:20 <pikhq> quintopia: Well, yes, that's something that goes a bit beyond just "Here's the *bare basics*, now write some shit."
17:21:31 <ais523> so you have something to reference when you add to the file
17:21:32 <j-invariant> ais523: that could happen if someone changed their email address though
17:21:50 <ais523> j-invariant: hmm, I should add "without any indication of why that should be"
17:22:00 <elliott> ais523: I'm trying to implement all the basic change algorithms in Haskell now, as pure as possible, but I'm having trouble doing ordered vs. unordered change structures elegantly
17:22:06 <elliott> ais523: most of the algorithms on them are the same, but they share basically no members
17:22:24 <ais523> that's interesting, but maybe not so surprising
17:22:32 <quintopia> pikhq: i think of "programming" as translating proven ideas into established languages. and therefore, yes, it is the easy part :P
17:22:48 <elliott> ais523: right now I'm considering just having SOF/EOF, the model being that there's only one file in this pure implementation :-)
17:22:59 <pikhq> Programming is a craft.
17:23:01 <ais523> that might be a good start
17:23:22 <pikhq> Like other crafts, the way to learn it is to just do it a lot.
17:23:56 <j-invariant> the only reason it is a craft is because we don't properly understand it yet
17:24:34 <elliott> ais523: hmm, how would you grep a file for two things?
17:24:46 <elliott> ais523: i.e., i want to filter the results of a grep by only showing the files that /also/ match another grep on that file
17:25:04 <j-invariant> quintopia: something based on a foundation. e.g. bridge building today is quite sensible, we know which ones stay up and which fall down
17:25:23 <j-invariant> quintopia: but in the past we could not build such a variety of interesting bridges because only a very small number were known to stay up
17:25:44 <j-invariant> quintopia: I think programming will be similar: We should learn structural properties of large csale programming that "stay up"
17:26:14 <pikhq> j-invariant: We know *precisely* how to do large scale programming "right".
17:26:24 <quintopia> that's being done to i think. that is called software engineering i ween, and some places teach it better than others.
17:26:38 <quintopia> of course, it's nowhere near the level of bridge-building yet
17:26:44 <pikhq> elliott: Well, "right" to the extent that we can create bug-free programs.
17:26:52 <quintopia> because bridge-building fundamentals are more standardized
17:26:54 <elliott> quintopia: software engineering is code for "code monkey training"
17:26:57 <j-invariant> pikhq: I want to make a bug free program :(
17:26:58 <pikhq> It's obnoxiously expensive!
17:27:07 <elliott> pikhq: You mean the NASA model?
17:27:09 <quintopia> elliott: sadly, yes, in most places it is
17:27:20 <elliott> It is _not_ a fundamentally hard task, I don't think.
17:27:22 <pikhq> elliott: Well. Yes, I mean the NASA model.
17:27:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, I thought Sgeo was doing SE-but-stupider?
17:27:38 <elliott> Is creating each bridge an immensely difficult effort that goes under intense, INTENSE scrutiny, where the architect has little freedom because IT MUST WORK?
17:27:53 <elliott> Bridges are made all the time with not much fuss at all.
17:27:58 <j-invariant> the NASA model is very interesting but I don't suppose it's necessary to work that way
17:28:11 <j-invariant> Currently it may well be the best, but in future there could be a "cheaper" way
17:28:20 <quintopia> elliott: galloping gertie aside, of course
17:28:23 <ais523> elliott: how would you grep a file for two things? <-- grep -l | xargs grep
17:28:30 <cheater00> elliott: is that a multiline grep?
17:28:51 <ais523> what elliott asked for was grepping only files that matched another grep
17:28:59 <pikhq> Anyways, a large part of the problem we see with common programs is that they are written in languages that make it *trivial* to introduce bugs.
17:29:01 <ais523> and that's what xargs is for, pretty much
17:29:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel at this point that I should point out that bridges are vastly easier to reason about than your average program.
17:29:11 <pikhq> And even very dangerous bugs.
17:29:16 <j-invariant> pikhq: yeah. That's insane, it's mad that people still use e.g. PHP
17:29:21 <ais523> obviously I've left a bunch of stuff out of the command line, but elliott's easily intelligent enough to infer it emself
17:29:22 <j-invariant> pikhq: I just cannot understand that one bit
17:29:24 <pikhq> Off-by-one error in C? Bam, you're fucked.
17:29:47 <ais523> pikhq: not many languages make it easy to avoid bugs
17:29:50 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, I think he's thinking more of C and other languages which are stupidly low-level but are ubiquitous because programmers are, by and large, idiots.
17:30:04 <elliott> ais523: wtf, i seem to be unable to find my pastie of my scapegoat algo :D
17:30:10 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but some languages make it easy to hit horrifyingly dangerous bugs.
17:30:11 <ais523> arguably, Java was designed like that, but it doesn't actually help because throwing an exception and doing nothing about it is not much better than simply crashing
17:30:27 <ais523> pikhq: where "horrifingly dangerous" = security bug? data loss bug
17:30:44 <pikhq> Think "buffer overflows".
17:30:48 <pikhq> So, yeah, security bug.
17:30:58 <ais523> buffer overflows are just one sort of security bug
17:31:15 <pikhq> Yes, it's just an example of one that low-level languages make really easy to hit.
17:31:28 <ais523> I'm not even sure they're the most common, exploitable dangling/NULL pointers seem around as common
17:31:30 <quintopia> um...what sort of people don't do something useful with caught exceptions? (tbh, i don't like the way java does exceptions, but i don't like people who ignore errors even more)
17:31:33 <ais523> alhtough they're a bit harder to exploit
17:31:45 <cheater00> this env variable isn't in any scripts that i know of!
17:31:57 <ais523> quintopia: people who just squash the error message, or log it, or whatever, or throw it right out of the program
17:32:01 <pikhq> A buffer overflow can also just cause very unpredictable behavior.
17:32:04 <ais523> in fact, I hardly ever see exceptions handled sensibly
17:32:16 <quintopia> ais523: yes, i meant, what is those people's IQ level?
17:32:18 <pikhq> At least a crash in a Java program does just that: it stops working.
17:32:35 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/esotericlogs$ grep 'elliott>.*http://sprunge' 10* | sed 's/.*http/http/g;s,us/\(\w*\).*,us/\1,g' | while read url; do echo "$url: $(curl -s $url | head -n 1)"; done
17:32:36 <ais523> quintopia: probably quite high, programmers tend to be more intelligent than average, I imagine
17:32:41 <ais523> it's not a case of stupidity, it's a case of not caring
17:32:50 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
17:33:10 <pikhq> Whereas in C, you could hypothetically have the program start formatting the hard drive while whistling, because the programmer forgot to check the size of a buffer.
17:33:12 <ais523> incidentally, I'm wondering how easy that operation would be in Windows, I doubt it would be a one-liner...
17:33:55 <ais523> pikhq: there was a thread on comp.lang.c where they asked people what the worst undefined behaviour behaviour was that they'd ever seen in practice
17:34:09 <ais523> someone had a buffer overflow jump to the "are you sure?" of the format routine, which happened to be in RAM at the time
17:34:27 <ais523> and said they thought themselves lucky that it didn't jump to just after the check
17:34:37 <ais523> (it may well have tried to format a nonexistent drive, though)
17:34:52 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, that's positively frightening.
17:35:02 <Ilari> No MMU in that computer?
17:35:13 <pikhq> Ilari: Probably DOS.
17:35:17 <elliott> ais523: i just want to make sure you realise that applying changes in scapegoat involves a potentially expensive topographic sort
17:35:22 <ais523> Ilari: they didn't say it was DOS, but that was implied
17:35:30 <ais523> elliott: yep, that seems plausible
17:35:42 <ais523> I'm one for semantics first, efficiency second, in most cases
17:35:43 <elliott> ais523: because, you have to figure out the order to apply it in to avoid fake conflicts
17:35:46 <ais523> because most things can be optimised
17:35:55 <elliott> ais523: oh, in my opinion this is a great achievement
17:36:11 <elliott> ais523: previously, it was thought that a version control system being slower than darcs 1 was a logical impossibility
17:36:15 <elliott> but we will prove them wrong
17:36:55 <Vorpal> elliott, darcs 1? what is the current version of it?
17:37:02 <ais523> I think it optimises pretty well, actually; you can cache tsorts
17:37:07 <elliott> they solved a major inefficiency
17:37:25 <ais523> elliott: to be precise, 1 and 2 have a similar average case (although I think it's faster), but 1 had a completely insane worst case
17:37:32 <ais523> which was hit in practice fairly often
17:38:26 <elliott> ais523: here is what inspired me to resume implementing scapegoat, by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGmwA5yBn0
17:38:38 <elliott> ais523: I figured I should get to the point where I can make a video with an EVEN BETTER commit tree.
17:39:17 <j-invariant> There is so much resistance to the improvement of programming
17:40:04 <j-invariant> juts look at blog posts or reddit or anything like that
17:40:32 <ais523> I mean, you may be correct, but your statement's too vague for me to be sure of what it means
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17:43:05 <ais523> this channel's definition of "improvement of programming" may be quite different from many others'...
17:44:40 <elliott> ais523: that video, incidentally, makes me dislike git
17:44:50 <elliott> I didn't quite realise the implications of its rather basic model
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17:46:20 <elliott> pikhq: I improved on your lambdas in C, but completing the implementation requires some cpp hackery that I'm not good enough to do.
17:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, you started disliking git heh
17:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm actually interested in how Scapegoat works now.
17:46:27 <Vorpal> I'm going to watch that video
17:46:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Well it's still what I'd use in practice if not darcs, but scapegoat is better.
17:47:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, I'm happy to explain it but ask ais523 first; if he wants me to I will, but he gets the first opportunity
17:47:19 <ais523> you'd better, I'm currently angry (at something unrelated to this channel)
17:47:36 <oerjan> variable: do you still think it's hard to combine haskell's IO with the functional parts? (my impression is: it depends on how interactive your IO is)
17:47:38 <elliott> ais523: More NetBeans students?
17:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, darcs is quite decent is isn't it? A bit weird and long names for the commands, but the same applies to git ("git st"? nope, "git status", sure sure tab complete, but even so there are more than one thing that tab complete on git st<tab>)
17:48:05 <ais523> elliott: surprisingly, no
17:48:08 <elliott> Vorpal: That latter is such a minor complaint that I can't even comprehend it.
17:48:14 <j-invariant> oerjan: oen thing that sucks is taking a pure code and moving it into a monad... Then again the oenly reason it's such a pain to do is because it /could/ be automated
17:48:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well no it isn't a major issue. Just convenience of short commands
17:48:34 <ais523> darcs tab-completes just fine on Debian/Ubuntu
17:49:16 <ais523> I'm using a mixture of darcs and git for things nowadays; git when I have to collaborate with someone else a lot, darcs for personal things
17:49:22 <oerjan> j-invariant: well turning pure code into monadic requires making a decision about order of actions, which might not be relevant for the pure version
17:49:35 <ais523> (and git for collaboration with others only because it's more popular so it's easier to persuade them to use it)
17:49:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, so, do you know the basics of how git and darcs work?
17:50:08 <oerjan> (as i see it that's the same problem as with the interactivity)
17:50:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's an incredibly bad description
17:50:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: err, i can't really explain it then if you don't know the basic model of those two
17:50:20 <ais523> as it applies only vaguely to git, and not really to darcs at all
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17:50:51 <ais523> (although it is possible to find something corresponding to a revision in darcs, say to port a darcs repo to a different VCS; it's a snapshot of the code as it was at a given time)
17:52:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then I cannot explain scapegoat to you, and nor can anyone else really.
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17:53:53 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I think I really "get" git now, it's a bit like C in a way, you do everything by hand
17:54:11 <elliott> ais523: what horrifies me is git-rebase
17:54:22 <elliott> ais523: and the fact that people actually use it -- regularly
17:54:22 <ais523> elliott: it horrifies me too, although probably not for the same reason
17:54:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not really, I don't know what's good to read
17:54:36 <ais523> hey, I use it regularly when I use git
17:54:36 <elliott> ais523: my reason is that THAT SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED EVER
17:54:45 <ais523> because it doesn't really work otherwise
17:54:48 <elliott> ais523: use it regularly and *recommend it as a Good Thing*
17:55:00 <elliott> "gee keep your revision log clean!"
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17:55:08 <ais523> elliott: put it this way, a simple git pull has an implicit rebase if it fast-forwards
17:55:14 <elliott> You fail at version control.
17:55:19 <elliott> ais523: which is just a flaw in git
17:55:23 <elliott> really though, it's rewriting history
17:55:28 <elliott> I can't imagine how anyone thinks that's a good idea
17:55:41 <ais523> because git shows your history as you wish it were, rather than as how it actually was
17:56:26 <ais523> if your repo starts out the same as someone else's, they make some changes, you pull them, your repos now have different histories, as one pulled the changes in a chunk, the other made them one at a time
17:56:37 <ais523> in fact, git actually inherently goes exponential without any sort of rebase
17:56:50 <ais523> because you have to keep on merging the fact that you're aware of the fact that the other person merged
17:56:56 <ais523> now, I'm not saying this is a good thing at all
17:57:25 <ais523> (git disregarding the same change made by two people in parallel I thought was just a detail, it's actually completely essential to the way that git works)
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17:58:11 <SgeoN1> A few minutes after I got here, she called to say she missed her bus
17:59:06 <elliott> ais523: coding haskell makes me crazy
17:59:18 <elliott> I have to distill every algorithm down to the point where it's just a few combinators put together
17:59:20 <elliott> anything else and I've failed
18:00:06 <Vorpal> <ais523> (git disregarding the same change made by two people in parallel I thought was just a detail, it's actually completely essential to the way that git works) <-- who gets credited with it then?
18:00:11 <SgeoN1> We're going to try again tomorrow
18:00:35 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm not entirely sure, it might actually be different in the two repos
18:00:49 <ais523> because from git's view of the world, it doesn't matter
18:01:42 <elliott> @undo do { x <- apply c xs; return $ (c1',s1) : (c2',s2) : x }
18:01:42 <lambdabot> apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:01:48 <Vorpal> ais523, so the revision id checksum thingy is on the delta, and doesn't include commit message or author?
18:01:50 <elliott> @pl apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:01:51 <lambdabot> ([(c1', s1), (c2', s2)] ++) `fmap` apply c xs
18:02:48 <elliott> ais523: "replace SOF with X" is an invalid change, right?
18:03:06 <elliott> ais523: (I'm assuming there's a replace, since having it as a delete+insert causes fake conflicts)
18:03:19 <elliott> (if not, "delete SOF/EOF" is an invalid change, right?)
18:07:20 <elliott> I think ais523 just removed SOF.
18:11:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Towards Dawn did it with tiny platforms.
18:12:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I have enough wood now that I can smelt some coal overnight and get some torches.
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18:14:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't?
18:14:56 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:14:59 <elliott> How many logs did you start with?
18:16:09 <oerjan> 19:04 elliott> @pl apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:16:10 <oerjan> 19:04 lambdabot> ([(c1', s1), (c2', s2)] ++) `fmap` apply c xs
18:16:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have 26+5 right now, how much more should I get?
18:16:17 <oerjan> ooh, @pl is that clever now?
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18:16:32 <elliott> oerjan: became: apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:16:40 <elliott> oerjan: became | otherwise = (((c1',s1) :) . ((c2',s2) :)) <$> apply c xs
18:17:24 <oerjan> elliott: you didn't use the [...] ++ ?
18:17:35 <elliott> oerjan: no, because I have ((foo,bar) :) <$> in other cases of the function
18:17:37 <elliott> so this is more consistent
18:18:04 <oerjan> elliott: i think you have a redundant set of parentheses there
18:18:19 <lambdabot> The operator `Data.Functor.<$>' [infixl 4] of a section
18:19:03 <oerjan> the precedence of . is lower
18:19:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Start a tree farm, btw.
18:19:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 10 cobble enough for the first night?
18:20:00 <oerjan> elliott: basically . has the highest possible precedence, and $ has the lowest
18:20:16 <elliott> oerjan: um there is no $ here
18:20:52 <oerjan> elliott: no, it's just a general rule i go by
18:21:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FWIW, how much wood did you start off with?
18:21:33 <oerjan> in fact it annoyed me that Parsec gave another operator (<?> iirc) the same precedence as $, in a way that ruined the ability to combine them
18:22:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how come everyone else's days seem to last 2398234982349 longer than mine
18:22:23 <oerjan> (if <?> had reversed its order of arguments and used the same fixity as $, they would have worked seamlessly together without parentheses)
18:22:32 <j-invariant> that's weird. I found smoe new kind of wood but it's still called wood
18:23:04 <Phantom_Hoover> But by that point I had plenty of wood, cobble and dirt, so I just set up the base as night fell.
18:23:17 <oerjan> the Prelude has no operators sharing precedence with either . or $ afair
18:23:21 <elliott> TODO: get a few more cobbles and then go up.
18:23:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's the third?
18:23:53 <oerjan> (well s/Prelude/\& and Haskell 98 library/
18:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (The cobbles aren't that necessary, I just wanted them for peace of mind.)
18:24:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The cobbles are required for furnace and also for initial tools.
18:25:06 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: nice, I really like this new kind
18:25:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For instance a wood sword won't get you very fa.
18:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, OK, but you won't need tools once you get up onto your platform for the night.
18:25:43 <elliott> j-invariant: But the next day...
18:25:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How high did you make your shelter?
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18:26:06 <elliott> j-invariant: make my function prettier! http://sprunge.us/ECZO :P
18:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I now have a 5x5 tree plantation with 9 saplings!
18:26:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Off sea level?
18:26:57 <oerjan> impomatic: hm i have a vague idea there was something i wanted to tell you
18:27:29 <impomatic> Oerjan: was it about corewar, programming games or recursion?
18:27:42 <oerjan> hm _possibly_ recursion
18:28:10 <impomatic> Oerjan: or maybe you wanted to join the mob of people angry at me for some dodgy Forth code!
18:28:14 <oerjan> maybe i already did tell you, i'm not sure
18:28:25 <oerjan> impomatic: i'm pretty sure it wasn't forth-related
18:28:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did you use the dirt to be one piece of the floor?
18:28:39 <elliott> i assume you made the house itself out of planks
18:29:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you make walls?
18:29:04 <oerjan> impomatic: hm was it something wiki-related...
18:29:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A ceiling?
18:29:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A ceiling?
18:30:07 <impomatic> Oerjan: it might have been, I was asking about BF Joust, FYB, pastebin.ca and broken voxel links a few days ago :-P
18:30:29 <oerjan> impomatic: oh BF Joust it was
18:30:40 <oerjan> impomatic: i wanted to suggest you ask in agora
18:30:54 <pikhq> And a gigantic swath of APNIC allocations leaves them below 2.1 /8s.
18:30:55 <oerjan> since that's where it was invented
18:31:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you build a one-high wall to stop you falling out, or are you more hardcore than me?
18:31:21 <pikhq> Which is their usual allocation threshold...
18:31:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I might build a fence, but it might be too much bother if I expand.
18:32:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm above water, so I can just jump off if I want. MWAHAHAHAHA
18:32:38 <pikhq> IANA depletion estimate: any minute now.
18:33:18 <impomatic> Oerjan: I found what I needed to know thanks... I was adding a brief history to the page on the programming games wiki http://programminggames.org/BF-Joust.ashx
18:34:20 <oerjan> impomatic: oh you're Imp... you _do_ have a User:Impomatic too
18:34:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: One log only produces one coal.
18:34:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well it's INEFFICIENT!
18:35:21 <impomatic> Oerjan: I know, but I forgot the password and I didn't set an email address to recover it :-(
18:35:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's 5/4 logs to 1 coal.
18:35:32 <pikhq> Ilari: APNIC's pool is at 2.01 /8s. Thought you'd like to know.
18:35:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, of course, you can use the coal as fuel.
18:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Sod it. I am just going to set the difficulty to peaceful for a second and despawn the creepers.
18:37:54 <pikhq> http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information
18:38:16 <elliott> I'm going to go on to hard.
18:38:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Question. Can trees grow on the corner of a platform?
18:38:37 * oerjan checks that he has his email set
18:39:15 <impomatic> Would anyone be interested in an ARobots tournament? http://programminggames.org/ARobots.ashx - basically CROBOTS in 8086 assembly
18:40:01 <Ilari> "When APNIC only has a total of one /8 left, the final /8 policy will be triggered." -- That's presumably some APNIC-internal policy...
18:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I'm just trying to get rid of daytime creepers, which are ridiculously broken gameplay-wise.
18:40:39 <pikhq> Ilari: Yeah, that's an allocation policy for dealing with being near RIR depletion.
18:41:19 <pikhq> For rationing out the very last /8.
18:41:23 <oerjan> Ilari: of course it doesn't actually _matter_ when they allocate, given that no one else is likely to do so. apart from the news/propaganda value.
18:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, slightly more awesome version of the lavalight: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Ladder-lava-force-field.png
18:42:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Facepalm. I just placed torches in my tree farm.
18:42:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: My tree farm that gets sunlight.
18:42:25 <pikhq> IPv4 depletion is near and I still don't have IPv6 service from my ISP.
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18:44:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What should I do with my SEXY BLACK WOOL
18:46:07 <elliott> "Since my abandonment of RCS in favor of hg has caused comex to start
18:46:07 <elliott> tracking the ruleset again, I resign as Rulekeepor."
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18:48:09 <Ilari> According to APNIC extended delegated file, they have 33 608 704 IPs available (2.003 blocks)
18:50:10 <Ilari> Lagerholm estimated that the request will be sent on monday and takes few days to process, officially depleting the pool on wednesday or thursday...
18:50:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Make the trees grow.
18:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, agora? (wrt that quote)
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18:50:43 <Vorpal> Ilari, depleeting what pool?
18:50:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How does that help?
18:50:56 <Vorpal> Ilari, the global one!?
18:51:20 <elliott> But it'll be a few months before we see the effects.
18:51:28 <Vorpal> then allocation really spiked the last week or two
18:51:32 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed I know that
18:51:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, bonemeal makes trees and crops grow instantly.
18:51:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How does bonemeal help?
18:51:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, APNIC had some massive allocation requests recently.
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18:52:47 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, bonemeal makes trees and crops grow instantly. <-- really? How do you apply it then
18:53:02 <Vorpal> before or after I mean
18:53:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and you claimed it makes that blue stuff. How?
18:53:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How find bone.
18:53:38 <Vorpal> elliott, is it a bug or not?
18:53:40 <elliott> Also, it's called lapis lazuli.
18:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately: find skeleton. Wait 'till skeleton goes on fire.
18:54:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have no armour. That sounds scary.
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18:54:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just asking about that bonemeal -> lapis lazuli: is it done by making use of a bug or is it intended?
18:55:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you can answer if it is a bug or not without problems however.
18:55:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't see how it helps me if I knew if it was due to a bug or not
18:55:56 <Vorpal> besides, why is it a secret
18:56:33 <Vorpal> ah found it on youtube
18:56:41 <elliott> The terrain generator's improvements are wonderful.
18:56:54 <Vorpal> elliott, will it result in an edge towards current terrain?
18:57:03 <elliott> Unlikely, I don't think it's new.
18:57:23 <elliott> Take a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/IVrIw.png
18:57:28 <elliott> I have no idea how far it goes.
18:57:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well I seen similar things before
18:58:05 <elliott> Biomes are still too tiny though.
18:59:51 <elliott> I think the cobble texture has been changed.
19:00:01 <elliott> The top of furnaces are now not the same as stone. :/
19:00:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it has been fixed (the bonemeal thingy) in the update today it seems. At least according to reddit.
19:01:59 <elliott> Jeb made this: http://i.imgur.com/a7uht.png
19:02:13 <elliott> Note how this update, which is cool and seems to have added almost no bugs, was made almost entirely by Jeb.
19:02:33 <elliott> And also increases performance by including the code improvements of a (supposedly frowned-upon) modder.
19:02:43 <elliott> We should all pray that Notch decides to retire immediately.
19:02:47 <j-invariant> Curiosity cam http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl#&utm_source=498663
19:02:51 <elliott> And leaves Minecraft to Jeb.
19:03:09 <Vorpal> elliott, notch had decent ideas though.
19:03:17 <Vorpal> just poor at implementing them
19:03:19 <elliott> But he should never be allowed near code. Ever.
19:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, that I can agree on
19:03:35 <elliott> Also I think Notch ran out of ideas.
19:03:42 <elliott> Before this Jeb update, the game had been much the same for ages.
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19:07:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover: "Possbly due to an error, when Beta 1.2 came out trees that had already been created were re-created often with the same shape but more than one type of leaves, often all three."
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19:07:48 <Vorpal> elliott, is it this bug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K7BGI2Jq8E
19:08:07 <Vorpal> elliott, if it is then it is already out in the open
19:08:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not there at least.
19:08:48 <elliott> Yes. But HHI still has the power.
19:08:53 -!- acetoline has joined.
19:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, I got it from /r/minecraft, but anyway...
19:08:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well you could have found it yourself?
19:09:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Right, but we have the btter way.
19:09:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, found another way yourself? heh nice
19:09:25 <elliott> Bone meal is white dye. Why.
19:10:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you can combine it with coloured dyes to make light colour
19:10:43 <j-invariant> I've never seen anything like lapis lazuli in the wild
19:10:51 <elliott> j-invariant: lapis lazuli is ore, near redstone
19:10:51 <Vorpal> elliott, j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Wool_Dyes
19:10:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> OMG YOU CAN PAINT SHEEP <-- old
19:11:03 <Vorpal> I heard that yesterday
19:11:16 <Vorpal> elliott, this has been known since yesterday
19:11:23 <ais523> hmm, Haskell is too elegant to easily read
19:11:39 <ais523> it's like the accusations people make against Perl, except actually warranted
19:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, correct. But if you think that is the most important thing to repeat... sure go ahead
19:11:48 <elliott> I find Haskell easy to read
19:11:52 <ais523> it just says too much in too little a piece of code
19:12:04 <elliott> ais523: It's _slower_ to read, but you have _less_ to read.
19:12:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Perl is needlessly hard to read, while Haskell is actually terse for a reason.
19:12:12 <elliott> ais523: It's just more compact.
19:14:22 <elliott> Vorpal: How resource-intensive is blowing up a 128x128x127 cube of TNT?
19:14:51 <pikhq> ais523: I find that Haskell is easy to read except when people are being *too* clever.
19:15:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WELL I WANT TO DO IT
19:15:13 <pikhq> ais523: The problem is, of course, is that some people are far too clever.
19:15:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: World editing plugin to clear 128x128x128 plus a bit, and then fill 128x128x127 with TNT, and detonate it.
19:15:28 <elliott> Come back a few hours later with tea, observe destruction.
19:15:31 <coppro> TNT is a lot to use one a server
19:15:36 <pikhq> ais523: Perl, on the other hand, is hard to read except when people are being careful.
19:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, servers do actually crash with less TNT than that.
19:16:00 <pikhq> Of course, it may just be that I find a monad-pipeline pretty clear.
19:16:30 <coppro> is like the greatest package ever
19:16:44 <elliott> ais523: hmm, it just occurred to me that there's probably a way to turn any container into an equivalent change structure
19:16:51 <elliott> ais523: as in, lists -> file changes; sets -> directory changes
19:17:10 <coppro> pikhq: TeX package that does unit formatting for you
19:17:43 <coppro> G = \SI{6.67e-11}{\meter\cubed\per\kilogram\per\second\squared}
19:17:48 <coppro> a bit verbose, but very legible
19:17:59 <coppro> the verbosity is optional iirc
19:18:03 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
19:18:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: How resource-intensive is blowing up a 128x128x127 cube of TNT? <-- in what?
19:18:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, it has extensions.
19:18:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And AdBlock.
19:18:21 <Vorpal> elliott, or do you mean in number of TNT required
19:18:36 <elliott> ais523: hmm, what's the rough algorithm for turning a set of scapegoat changes into a graph so that it can be topologically sorted?
19:19:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea. But even something like a few hundred TNT could crash the server. Though iirc with 1.2 TNT was optimised a bit. Still I expect enough TNT will cause issues. No idea where the limit is.
19:20:39 <coppro> it's an awesome package
19:22:26 <j-invariant> so here's a tip; If you use shift to walk near the edge of a thing... even if you've stopped moving, letting go can make you fall
19:22:47 <elliott> you can walk off the edge of a lock with sneaking
19:23:09 <elliott> people off the edge of blocks while sneaking
19:23:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you don't.
19:25:53 <j-invariant> killing all the pigs is hard, oh I will try fishing!
19:26:20 <elliott> j-invariant: Set up a farm.
19:29:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm interesting: "This same principal applies to combining string to form a wool block and grabbing it with a dyed wool block!"
19:30:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess that is it :)
19:30:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or have you found a third way?
19:31:01 <elliott> graphFromEdges :: Ord key => [(node, key, [key])] -> (Graph, Vertex -> (node, key, [key]), key -> Maybe Vertex)
19:31:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so you have a third bug then?
19:32:07 <elliott> We could not possibly comment.
19:32:33 <Vorpal> elliott, dude this reveals nothing :P
19:32:42 <j-invariant> aw the fishing line can't stretch infinitely far
19:32:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and I was asking Phantom_Hoover not you
19:33:25 <Vorpal> j-invariant, did you plan something that needed that?
19:35:03 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/46k5O.png Redstone over Radio
19:35:34 <elliott> j-invariant: It's just an idea, of which there are billions.
19:35:41 <Vorpal> it is a decent one yes
19:35:55 <j-invariant> elliott: I think minecraft should have a system for adding new things like this to it, since everyone has their own ideas
19:36:05 <elliott> j-invariant: you want oklopol's game
19:36:13 <elliott> Vorpal: it's like drum material
19:36:22 <elliott> j-invariant: where every block has its own program in it
19:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, arguably that would be better for the music blocks instead
19:36:36 <elliott> j-invariant: and you play by programming blocks to be bots that mine for you and shit
19:36:49 <elliott> Vorpal: do you know what the eardrum is ...
19:36:55 <elliott> sound -> hide part vibrates -> stuff
19:36:57 <elliott> j-invariant: well he's working on it
19:36:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, but do you know what a speaker is?
19:37:24 <Vorpal> oh speaker could use paper there I guess
19:37:34 <Vorpal> most speaker membranes are paper afaik
19:37:56 <Vorpal> elliott, never took apart a loudspeaker?
19:38:06 <j-invariant> I need to get around to trying out that computer level
19:38:13 <j-invariant> I haven't tried anyone elese minecraft worlds yeet
19:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, paper is very common as the membrane. I can't promise that every speaker use it but all the ones I took apart have
19:38:48 <elliott> Vorpal: i see a market for audiophiles
19:39:16 <Vorpal> elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3.5_Inch_Speaker.jpg the black is rather thick paper
19:39:48 <elliott> Oh, I thought you meant paper-paper.
19:39:57 <elliott> Like, actual writing-style paper paper.
19:40:19 <elliott> You can hook a dispenser up to redstone, have the dispenser shoot an arrow at a wall of paintings with pressure plates underneath. The arrow knocks off the painting which hits a pressure plate and causes a continuation of the circuit.
19:40:20 <Vorpal> "The diaphragm is usually manufactured with a cone- or dome-shaped profile. A variety of different materials may be used, but the most common are paper, plastic, and metal."
19:40:24 <elliott> HHI Research must do this.
19:40:37 <Vorpal> elliott, this has been done in the craftbook mod
19:40:56 <elliott> HHI Research will use it to blow up TNT, which will be an innovation.
19:41:03 <elliott> The test will take place underneath Mount Vorpal, a very secure location.
19:41:16 <Vorpal> elliott, did you find that thing about the painting yourself?
19:41:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:41:36 <elliott> I Ctrl+V'd, which is obvious.
19:41:47 <Vorpal> elliott, no quotes around it
19:42:02 <Vorpal> elliott, why would it be that bad?
19:42:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OH GOD SPIDERS CLIMBING WALLS WAS A PLAYER SUGGESTION WHY
19:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> HHI Research will use it to blow up TNT, which will be an innovation. ← I feel that we need some other innovations.
19:42:29 <Vorpal> elliott, "oh noes" <-- why would forgetting quotes be that bad
19:42:54 <j-invariant> I hooked a creeper and pulled him towards me X)
19:43:29 <elliott> j-invariant: stupidest thing to do ever :D
19:43:33 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I don't see the invention in using this thing someone else did. Not saying using it is a bad idea at mt hoover or at the cube. But calling it innovation seems a bit wrong :P
19:44:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://foone.org/minecraft/death/
19:44:54 <Vorpal> cheater99, ask elliott for that link that notch left wide open due to incompetence (if it still works?)
19:45:06 <elliott> I don't service cheater99.
19:45:15 -!- cheater99 has changed nick to cheater98.
19:45:33 <Vorpal> elliott, right. I guess it is a HHI secret?
19:45:41 <elliott> Vorpal: No, cheater98 is just a twat.
19:45:48 <elliott> Anyone else want Minecraft?
19:46:09 -!- cheater98 has changed nick to chelliott.
19:46:58 <elliott> Yes, anyone can download minecraft.jar.
19:47:10 <elliott> He has S3 authentication tokens and whatnot set up but doesn't actually, you know, require them; you can just download the file.
19:47:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, as in, bin/minecraft.jar.
19:47:25 <elliott> As in, Notch's incompetence lets anyone pirate the game direct from Mojang.
19:47:34 <chelliott> so if you download it can you play on public servers?
19:47:49 <pikhq> elliott: Consider myself curious.
19:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also, I knew those chickens were up to something.
19:48:17 <elliott> That will always require purchase due to Mojang's DRM system.
19:48:59 <elliott> j-invariant: The servers check with minecraft.net to see if you're authenticated and purchased.
19:49:06 <elliott> There's no actual way around that other than the server being modded.
19:50:48 <chelliott> ( * chelliott pretends to care so that Phantom_Hoover and elliott actually think he's interested in playing minecraft with them, in order to do some "bonding", but doesn't really care deep down)
19:51:51 <elliott> j-invariant: Everyone knows our server, it's just that ineiros is technically the only person allowed to tell anyone and he's been away :P
19:51:53 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:52:07 <elliott> j-invariant: because you haven't bugged ineiros while he's been online.
19:52:25 <Vorpal> chelliott, you could find it in logs
19:52:40 <chelliott> Vorpal: but then, i don't get server :(
19:52:42 <j-invariant> well I might ask him because I want to see "The Cube"
19:52:43 <Vorpal> chelliott, grep them for http://.*minecraft.*
19:53:09 <elliott> j-invariant: It's, er, very under-construction.
19:53:11 <Vorpal> chelliott, iirc s3.amazon.com or whatever they call their service
19:53:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't fucking tell him.
19:53:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well you could start acting decently towards me
19:53:34 <elliott> Although I guess as long as he doesn't find the server it's okay.
19:53:39 <Vorpal> elliott, then I might care more for what you say
19:53:39 <chelliott> Vorpal: i am going to cry my eyes out and then curl up in an embrional position, bobbing back and forth, until the exhaustion makes me fall asleep.
19:54:00 <chelliott> i always wanted to see what it would be like to climb Mt. Vorpal :(
19:54:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
19:54:22 <Vorpal> chelliott, you can do single player. For multiplayer you obviously need to buy the game
19:54:41 <chelliott> Vorpal: don't you guys have a hacked multiplayer server?
19:54:45 <Vorpal> chelliott, anyway you can find the urls in the logs if you care for single player
19:54:49 <Vorpal> chelliott, no. not hacked
19:54:50 <chelliott> Vorpal: sounds like a fairly simple thing to do in fact
19:55:47 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, when do you plan to start acting decently towards me? Do you expect something for nothing?
19:55:59 <chelliott> Vorpal: i bet they're not even encrypted?
19:56:01 <quintopia> chelliott? the female portal-shooting equivalent of ehird?
19:56:20 <elliott> quintopia: cheater being a moron.
19:56:24 <elliott> chelliott: ineiros doesn't want non-purchasers on the server.
19:56:29 <elliott> chelliott: So that will never, ever happen.
19:56:47 <Vorpal> chelliott, what elliott said is true here
19:57:05 <Vorpal> coppro, you are right I guess.
19:57:06 <chelliott> Vorpal: but if someone were to set up a server, they could intercept it like that, right?
19:57:16 <Vorpal> chelliott, I don't see why you need to do that
19:57:16 <elliott> They could just use a mod that disables it ...
19:57:28 <chelliott> Vorpal: so that people without a bought mc can also play
19:57:37 <Vorpal> chelliott, ... read again please :P
19:57:48 <Vorpal> chelliott, and then read what elliott just said
19:58:03 <chelliott> oh, sorry, i mostly don't read what elliott says
19:58:04 <Vorpal> chelliott, no need to intercept. Just mod.
19:58:23 <Vorpal> <chelliott> oh, sorry, i mostly don't read what elliott says <-- sounds like a good idea in fact.
19:58:30 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, the S3 downloads don't work; you need to log in once before you can play.
19:58:43 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? didn't they work before?
19:58:47 <chelliott> Vorpal: we should set up a mega secret server then!
19:59:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:59:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you said they worked before? Anyway I believe faking a login is rather trivial.
19:59:32 <Vorpal> I looked at the decompiled launcher
19:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the enemy of your enemy is not your friend here.
19:59:46 <Vorpal> you could just mod it.
19:59:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, when did I claim it was.
20:00:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well then, why not ask a channel op about him?
20:01:22 <elliott> he manages to avoid outright trolling enough of the time that he goes under the radar.
20:01:29 <elliott> also, ops never do anything apart from kick shutup
20:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, they kickbanned spambots I know :P
20:02:08 <Vorpal> oh wait, that is what you said
20:02:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. The something for nothing thing applies to you too
20:02:53 <elliott> "Someone I don't like is saying these things, therefore the fact that they can reasonably demonstrate that the actions they recommend are in the channel's best interest are things I should NOT do, because I must prove that I am at least as childish as the people I call that!"
20:03:01 <elliott> You're well on your way, keep up the good work.
20:03:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see scrollback around last like coppro spoke
20:03:54 <Vorpal> "therefore the fact that they can reasonably demonstrate that the actions they recommend are in the channel's best interest" <-- so demonstrate it
20:04:44 <Vorpal> elliott, what I'm saying here is closer to "I don't trust your judgement.
20:04:59 <elliott> cheater has repeatedly demonstrated that not only does he have no interest or knowledge of esolangs,
20:05:18 <elliott> but he has repeatedly acted superior and idiotic to many people in this channel on many, many occasions, while having contributed not one iota of positive discussion to it.
20:05:38 <elliott> That he is an idiot can be trivially verified by reading the logs; that he annoys people who are not can be verified the same.
20:05:51 <elliott> All he does is waste people's time.
20:06:13 <Vorpal> fair enough on those points.
20:06:18 <j-invariant> chelliott: you should change your name back then
20:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> As such, you should ignore him and starve him of the attention he so desperately craves.
20:07:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:07:19 <elliott> Brawndo! It's got what plants crave!
20:08:04 <chelliott> elliott: i have demonstrated i have no interest in knowing esolangs?
20:08:13 <chelliott> elliott: have you been drinking cillit bang again?
20:08:31 <elliott> You haven't really talked about esolangs once (you talked about Clue once, but then you started spinning some bullshit about it being a good business idea to oklopol or something).
20:08:41 <elliott> You also have no wiki presence
20:08:41 <chelliott> elliott: you're the kid here talking about computer games and ubuntu and mac laptops all the time
20:08:57 <Vorpal> okay so no one is on topic very much
20:08:57 <elliott> chelliott: I have repeatedly demonstrated that I have an interest in and knowledge of esolangs in the past.
20:08:58 <chelliott> we've got another one of elliott's attacks, everyone take cover
20:09:06 <chelliott> can we please have the restraining jacket
20:09:21 <chelliott> elliott: you forgot to run out and slam the door.
20:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, I am putting him on ignore. elliott, I will put you on ignore as well if you keep on engaging with him.
20:09:34 <chelliott> and scream "no one understands me"
20:09:43 <Vorpal> elliott, and you are socially incompetent
20:09:46 <elliott> "He's on to me, I'd better try and change the topic by being an idiot!"
20:09:54 <j-invariant> coppro: why don't you change you rname back?
20:10:00 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, where the fuck did you get that from?
20:10:06 <chelliott> j-invariant: oh right, well, i forgot about it
20:10:18 <Vorpal> elliott, from observing your general behaviour towards me and coppro for example.
20:10:20 <chelliott> j-invariant: then i read your comment, and then i read elliott's mental diarrhea, and had to reply to that first
20:10:28 -!- chelliott has changed nick to cheater777.
20:10:39 <j-invariant> now I hope you can stop fighting because I think it's upsetting elliot
20:10:49 <Vorpal> elliott, coppro is reasonably intelligent and he is interested in esolangs afaik
20:10:53 <cheater777> j-invariant: you've mixed up cause and effect
20:10:56 <elliott> Can I not yell at someone without it being construed as upset?
20:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: coppro is the one who has me on ignore.
20:11:06 <elliott> I do not have him on ignore.
20:11:17 <elliott> I have been rude to him lately because he keeps being a jerk mentioning how I'm on ignore all the time.
20:11:21 <Vorpal> cheater777, indeed, did I claim so?
20:11:38 <cheater777> Vorpal: just saying, it's a common typo.
20:11:54 <Vorpal> no. And now you are being annoying.
20:12:18 <cheater777> Phantom_Hoover: i think if you go to a page which has an rss feed you get an icon on the address bar... but i hadn't used chrome in ages now
20:12:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well how comes he ignored you?
20:12:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:12:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember there was indeed a very good reason
20:12:39 <SgeoN1> ^^distracting everyone from the war so they can talk about my liveblkgging nonsense
20:12:46 <cheater777> Vorpal: i'm not being annoying, i just thought you were talking about me and made a typo, just like j-invariant a couple minutes earlier. what's so annoying about that?
20:12:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I was there, it was a rhetorical question.
20:13:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Enjoy your regular whine-about-elliott rant alone.
20:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, as a sign of how desperate I am, please start liveblogging to your full capacity.
20:13:30 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? I don't really enjoy this discussion. And it is no rant.
20:13:51 <SgeoN1> I'm on my second to.last bus
20:14:17 <SgeoN1> I'm upset that I didn't see her today, butthrilldd for tomorrow
20:14:25 <Vorpal> elliott, still if you can't be decent towards me, then don't expect me to listen to your pleas
20:14:34 <SgeoN1> My hands are to cold to.type properly in this phone
20:14:52 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, can't you type with gloves on?
20:15:02 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1 is actually dying of cold somewhere in the frigid wastes of New York.
20:15:16 <SgeoN1> Vorpal, the. Us is warm, but my hands are still stiff
20:15:47 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, yes I'm sure parts of US is warm. Like Hawaii. But I suspect Alaska is rather cold.
20:15:55 <Vorpal> I wonder what the average temperature is
20:16:38 <SgeoN1> Maybe tomorrow I'll see her for more than the 1.5 hours I thought I'd see her today
20:16:43 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:17:02 <oklopol> hope i didn't interrupt anything important
20:17:13 <Vorpal> oklopol, indeed you didn't
20:17:15 <oklopol> that would be embarrassing
20:18:25 <SgeoN1> My toes ads still in pain
20:18:54 <oklopol> every period, when courses start, i have this really hard time doing homework because i'm afraid i just can't do it anymore
20:19:02 <oklopol> what if i've gotten old, and can't math anymore
20:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, things got so bad I had to get Sgeo to liveblog.
20:19:28 <j-invariant> oklopol: they give you homework that actualyl requires thinking? wow
20:19:30 <Vorpal> oklopol, I doubt that. How old are you?
20:20:22 <Vorpal> oklopol, it is very unlikely to happen until you are at least 40 I bet. And even then unlikely for many years
20:20:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:20:36 <oklopol> 2011 - 1989, so that means i turn 22 this year
20:20:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, anyway if you are around 20-25 then you are not getting too old yet
20:20:58 <Vorpal> oklopol, hey we are equally old (excluding month and day I guess)
20:21:01 <oklopol> okay, but what if i've just gotten totally rusty at math
20:21:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, did you just finish a course with math?
20:21:24 <oklopol> Vorpal: yes, i had an exam on monday
20:21:36 <Vorpal> oklopol, then you are unlikely to be rusty already
20:21:40 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, yes, but you have allowed your development to be retarded to the extent that you are effectively 14.
20:21:46 <Vorpal> oklopol, a year without math, then maybe
20:22:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, be fair. 15
20:22:12 <elliott> does anyone know how to make xchat ignore mentions of a name?
20:22:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As an ex-14-year-old, I take offence.
20:22:31 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use the python or perl scripting plugin
20:22:33 * Phantom_Hoover discovers that "hinterland" does not actually mean what he thought it meant.
20:22:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what did you think it meant?
20:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that's clearly because you are an immature and stupid 15-year-old.
20:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> You have no understanding of the deeper meaning of things, unlike those of us who are fortunate enough to have the wisdom of age.
20:23:25 <oklopol> elliott is also homo and a nigger
20:24:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what did you think "hinterland" meant?
20:24:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm I thought that too. In a somewhat negative sense.
20:25:12 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean?
20:25:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh: "The hinterland is the land or district behind the borders of a coast or river. Specifically, by the doctrine of the hinterland, the word is applied to the inland region lying behind a port, claimed by the state that owns the coast. ..."
20:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Finland is, admittedly, not the standard location for crofting, but I am assuming that it's sufficiently similar to the Highlands to be used for the purpose.
20:27:01 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> You have no understanding of the deeper meaning of things, unlike those of us who are fortunate enough to have the wisdom of age. <-- wait, aren't you younger than elliott even?
20:27:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from elliott iirc.
20:27:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, more mature, I don't dispute that
20:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly that lie is just his vast immaturity showing through.
20:27:38 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover must be at least 20
20:28:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, recommended reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crofting
20:28:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, no I don't think so. Could be older than elliott yes.
20:28:48 <oklopol> well yeah maybe closer to 20
20:28:58 <Vorpal> oklopol, more like 16-20
20:29:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but yeah I thought elliott said you were 12 or 13?
20:29:30 <oklopol> the reason for my guess was the similarity to pikhq
20:29:36 <oklopol> i don't know where i get that from
20:29:53 <oklopol> otherwise i might've guessed he's overcompensating for his age
20:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, there was a complicated accident with a relativistic spaceship and I aged 3 years.
20:30:09 <oklopol> by being careful about what he says
20:30:34 <oklopol> i actually think a penis hours about what i'm gonna say before hand
20:30:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It was pretty obvious that I was less than 18, what with me mentioning school all the time
20:31:11 <oklopol> oh i don't actually listen to the *content*
20:31:20 <oklopol> i just read the tone of voice of all you
20:31:35 <Vorpal> oklopol, tone of voice over IRC? :D
20:31:50 <oklopol> yeah you know, punctuation
20:32:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Reminds me of that Pratchett character who pronounced brackets.
20:32:21 <oklopol> that's all i see, dots and uppercase vs lowercase
20:32:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm yes. What was his name? And which book was it?
20:32:48 <oerjan> theory: complaints about immaturity are _always_ hypocritical. no exceptions.
20:32:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly you must start the Finnish crofting foundation.
20:33:06 <oklopol> maturity is a silly concept
20:33:20 <oerjan> even when said as joke.
20:33:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I thought it happened in Discworld too?
20:33:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, some lawyer or something? Probably wee free men or such?
20:33:51 <oerjan> note: above comment is hypocritical.
20:34:17 <elliott> ais523: I got topographic sorting of changes working, at least
20:34:40 <oklopol> elliott: topographic sorting is trivial, please try to grow up.
20:34:57 <elliott> i didn't actually impl the topographic sorting, just got it working on this structure :p
20:34:57 <oklopol> or use a fucking php function script kiddo
20:35:06 <elliott> lol@ implication that php has tsort
20:35:13 <elliott> too complicated to implement!
20:35:19 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/cGcj pretty this please
20:35:37 <elliott> wish haskell let me do "f x x" for "f x x' | x == x'" :(
20:35:42 <oklopol> i haven't checked this, but i imagine from the millions of php functions, you can actually never find any algorithms you need for your basic stuff
20:36:11 <oklopol> unless you're doing something stupid like web stuff
20:36:30 <oklopol> elliott: oklotalk lets you do that
20:36:59 <elliott> oklopol: impl http://sprunge.us/cGcj in oklotalk please
20:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I want to know how Scapegoat works. Please give me basic direction on where to look for Git help.
20:37:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i dunno, ask ais523
20:38:15 <j-invariant> so when where the three differen types of tree introduced?
20:38:38 <j-invariant> then the minecraft world is not all generated when you start a new game
20:38:55 <elliott> j-invariant: Considering it's practically infinite, of course not :P
20:39:15 <elliott> Except that sometimes the function changes half-way through evaluation and you get biome discontinuities!
20:39:20 <elliott> j-invariant: It has been proved much earlier.
20:39:26 <elliott> j-invariant: ALSO, all trees regenerated with the update.
20:39:33 <elliott> Normally you wouldn't see the new type.
20:39:37 <elliott> Until venturing out into new terrain.
20:40:22 <j-invariant> is "Combinatorial Algorithms" any good? (Donald Knuth)
20:41:54 <j-invariant> # 7.9. Herculean tasks (aka NP-hard problems)
20:43:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw NOTHIN' TO REPORT TODAY JUUUUUUUD
20:45:19 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/eS9fx.jpg BEST EVER
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20:45:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I will never forgive Jeb for taking up bluestone for lapis POOPLI.
20:46:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "Lapis lazuli" is objectively the coolest name for anything ever.
20:46:23 <elliott> "I want there to be some secret conspiracy where you can make a portal out of Lapis Lazuli blocks and get into heaven."
20:46:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Heaven portals. Fuckin' DISCUSS.
20:47:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sand falls, but cloudstone RISES.
20:47:30 <elliott> You have to put stuff above it to stop it going above level 127 and evaporating.
20:47:34 <elliott> (Canon: It becomes cloud.)
20:47:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Putting cloudstone below sand makes an explosion, naturally.
20:47:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Or just swaps them.)
20:48:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f20n0/efficiency_of_making_coal_instead_of_mining_coal/
20:49:19 <j-invariant> elliott: the CPU level for minecraft is a whole load of .dat files, but in ~/.minecraft/saves it's all categorized into folders
20:49:42 <elliott> j-invariant: you have to put it in a world directory
20:50:07 <j-invariant> eah but World1 has folders like 0,1,1c etc
20:50:09 <elliott> j-invariant: or do you mean the 0/ 1/ 1c/ etc. folders?
20:50:15 <elliott> j-invariant: put the dat files in anyway, i think it'll auto-convert
20:52:28 <elliott> ais523: I have individual change application and changeset application, what do you suggest I add next? I already have merging, right? since it's based into change application
20:52:42 <oerjan> elliott: you might want some more @'s in apply to share the tuples from the original line. also .Set.map needs a space after the .
20:53:13 <elliott> oerjan: no, it doesn't, actually
20:53:17 <elliott> but good catch, it should have one
20:53:27 <elliott> and yeah, OK, I'll add more @s
20:53:33 <oerjan> "needs" in the pretty sense here
20:54:35 <oerjan> well alas i don't know how to solve your ugly =='s problem
20:55:16 <oklopol> so umm, server hasn't been updated or anything?
20:55:16 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/HIHO it's better now, thanks, but apply is still pretty ugly
20:55:36 <elliott> oerjan: the ==s aren't even the ugliest part, probably
20:55:37 <oklopol> okay, just heard something about some new stuff
20:55:51 <elliott> oerjan: it's just that every case is very very similar
20:55:58 <elliott> oerjan: and it irritates me that i can't fix the duplication
20:56:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dear god. Do they ... hurt more like that?
20:56:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm still scared. Especially because of the door opening.
20:56:44 <elliott> It's like, HI I NOTICED YOU, SO TAKE A LOOK AT HELL.
20:57:13 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
20:57:34 <elliott> @hoogle (a->b-> m b) -> b -> [a] -> m b
20:57:35 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
20:57:35 <lambdabot> Control.Monad zipWithM_ :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m c) -> [a] -> [b] -> m ()
20:57:35 <lambdabot> Control.Monad foldM :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> [b] -> m a
20:58:41 <elliott> oerjan: is my ordering function inefficient? I use the changes themselves as the keys
20:59:30 <j-invariant> at least I managed not to destroy my own saved game
21:00:21 <elliott> i'll use that for the keys i guess
21:03:47 * Sgeo wonders if anyone plays in WorldForge
21:04:13 <elliott> oerjan: ugh, I can't use integers as the keys, because deps returns [Change]
21:04:20 <elliott> and changes don't know about their list indices obviously
21:04:54 <Sgeo> http://worldforge.org/dev/metaserver
21:05:02 <Sgeo> There's 21 clients on one of the servers
21:07:00 <oerjan> elliott: i'm not one to ask about efficiency optimization
21:08:32 <oerjan> elliott: interesting i think most of your apply guards are equivalent to deps c `isPrefixOf` map fst line
21:12:40 <oerjan> copumpkin: i don't think so, i just happened to read a reddit mc thread in which allowing mushroom farming was suggested
21:14:48 <oerjan> it was pointed out that allowing this would make some other foods essentially useless
21:23:06 <j-invariant> I thought it would be in the trillions by now
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21:24:26 <oklopol> http://omnium-gatherum.appspot.com/pages/tile.html
21:24:30 <oklopol> do you think this is trivial?
21:25:15 <Vorpal> 62% packet loss to ineiros :/
21:25:30 <Vorpal> that seems to be what cause the lag in general
21:27:13 <oklopol> i think it's periodic, although i already closed my solution
21:28:20 <oklopol> actually took me quite a while because i figured it's aperiodic
21:28:28 <oklopol> because of "convince yourself"
21:29:27 <oklopol> also what's the smallest period you can get
21:29:33 <oklopol> i think i have the smallest possible
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21:37:37 <elliott> <oerjan> elliott: interesting i think most of your apply guards are equivalent to deps c `isPrefixOf` map fst line
21:37:40 <elliott> oerjan: oh that's intriguing
21:37:55 <elliott> <j-invariant> Minecraft: More than 500 sold <-- WTF???
21:37:58 <elliott> j-invariant: it's 1 million
21:38:35 <elliott> oerjan: do you think abusing that would be evil? :)
21:38:49 <elliott> oerjan: the thing is that i'd have to pattern-match anyway, so it would just be weird... but i could do it as a subfunction
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21:40:27 <elliott> oerjan: btw trying to replace or delete SOF/EOF should also be disallowed, but
21:44:09 <oklopol> j-invariant: periodic? what period?
21:44:47 <elliott> oerjan: omg, it's insanely nice
21:44:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:45:03 <oklopol> and how many of each block do you use
21:45:21 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/NKJI
21:45:31 <elliott> oerjan: Now you tell me why that's incorrect :P
21:45:53 <elliott> hm that erroneously accepts SOF/EOF as a change but whatever
21:46:15 <oklopol> actually given the symmetry of the blocs, neither of those tells me much
21:46:34 <oklopol> except maybe that great minds think alike
21:49:01 * Phantom_Hoover vaguely remembers reading somewhere that Red Dwarf survived in the BBC because the director general thought it was mocking SF, but can't remember where he heard it.
21:49:49 <elliott> ah well it's broken so far
21:51:07 <elliott> oerjan: so hey, what structures are Changes and [Line]s :D
21:51:57 <elliott> i rely on oerjan to do all my thinking for me
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21:52:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The BBC is so strange.
21:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the times fit too, since it was airing while Doctor Who was being cancelled.
21:55:21 <oerjan> elliott: Functors in String, probably
21:55:44 <elliott> oerjan: are they APPLICATIVE functors?!!?!!!!!
21:56:23 <j-invariant> oklopol: it has period 3 horizontally and period 4 vertically (with a shift of 1 block horizontally)
21:56:55 <j-invariant> I wonder if there is a tiling with rotational symmetry
21:56:56 <oerjan> elliott: sounds awkward
21:57:14 <elliott> oerjan: i just want to be a pseudomathematician and reek, like all haskellers are known to do
21:57:23 <elliott> oerjan: sorry i forgot: also i want to be part of a cargo cult
21:57:26 <elliott> so please give me structures that it is
21:57:30 <elliott> even if i have to break the laws of those structures
21:57:41 <j-invariant> elliott: someone said "cargomorphism" in #haskell and got banned
21:57:54 <elliott> j-invariant: are you sure they were banned for _just_ that :p
21:58:06 <j-invariant> but it was the last straw on the camels back
21:58:13 <elliott> j-invariant: was it that guy talking about a basic program
21:58:19 <elliott> and clearly i can't do it simply in haskell
21:58:33 <oerjan> elliott: you probably want the Changeset case to be before the general one. could also put an SOF test there i think
21:58:37 <elliott> #haskell used to be such a nice channel, but haskell's recent surge in popularity hasn't done it good :(
21:59:16 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool
21:59:24 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => a -> [a] -> Bool
21:59:34 <elliott> @pl (\c -> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c))
21:59:34 <lambdabot> ap ((||) . elem SOF . deps) (elem EOF . deps)
21:59:47 <elliott> @pl (\c -> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c)) c
21:59:48 <lambdabot> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c)
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22:01:08 <oerjan> elliott: strictly speaking SOF and EOF shouldn't be allowed in the deps of a Change, should they?
22:01:19 <j-invariant> heh someone on MO posted "question which, I suppose, is as easy as abc for an expert"
22:01:21 <elliott> oerjan: (Insert "hello" SOF EOF)
22:01:28 <elliott> oerjan: that inserts the line "hello" into the empty file
22:01:40 <elliott> oerjan: remember that it's blame-based: you insert things in-between _changes_
22:01:44 <oerjan> elliott: so Insert is an exception...
22:01:44 <elliott> and a line is identified by the change that created it
22:02:06 <elliott> oerjan: I have a feeling this SOF/EOF thing is crufty and could be improved, but ais at least hasn't thought of anything better
22:02:28 <oklopol> j-invariant: i have period (4, 1)
22:02:46 <oklopol> yeah okay you explained both periods
22:03:07 <oklopol> i just gave the bigger one, i think we have the same one then
22:03:19 <j-invariant> oklopol: it may be the smallest tiling then
22:03:31 <j-invariant> elliott: http://mathoverflow.net/questions/52116/quadratic-forms-without-common-zeroes
22:04:22 <oklopol> what's a quadratic form :P
22:04:33 <oklopol> somehow i feel like i should remember the def
22:04:45 <oerjan> Ahoalton: esoteric programming languages. except we're almost never on topic
22:04:56 <j-invariant> I should invent an esoteric programming language
22:05:01 <elliott> Ahoalton: spiritualism, mysticism, and magick! note: lies
22:05:11 <elliott> we're actually a figment of your imagination
22:05:26 <oerjan> Ahoalton: otherwise, anything weird from programming or sometimes math
22:06:01 <elliott> we're basically one big family that's constantly fighting and wishing certain members would die
22:06:06 <elliott> having a constant christmas reunion
22:06:13 <elliott> and pretending to like each other
22:06:24 <oerjan> elliott: hey we're not _that_ bad
22:06:35 <elliott> oerjan: well we wouldn't be, if only Vorpal choked on his own vomit!
22:06:37 <Ahoalton> what are esoteric programming languages?
22:06:51 <elliott> Ahoalton: ones that you wouldn't want to actually, you know, use
22:07:22 <oklopol> j-invariant: quadratic form on F^5 means you have a quadratic form in 5 variables?
22:07:56 <elliott> Ahoalton: mathematica is the buggiest, slowest piece of rubbish ever
22:08:09 <oklopol> i used to use it when i had integration in my courses
22:08:41 <oklopol> but i don't need that shit anymore so i don't really use mathematica either
22:08:49 <oklopol> j-invariant: i don't think that would be abc for an expert
22:09:08 <oklopol> i may be wrong ofc, but that seems like a nontrivial prob
22:09:23 <elliott> Ahoalton: we have a guy in here that wolfram gave $25,000 to and even he hates mathematica :D
22:09:28 <j-invariant> oklopol: it's a (consequence of a) really neat theorem
22:09:35 <Ahoalton> which version elliott it got better
22:09:42 <elliott> Ahoalton: no it didn't, this was with 7
22:09:44 <j-invariant> oklopol: The Chevally-Warning thing, the proof is pretty easy
22:09:50 <j-invariant> oklopol: (I mean to read... not to come up with)
22:09:57 <elliott> Ahoalton: i'm referring to the winner of http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html who is ais523 in here
22:10:09 <oklopol> j-invariant: i thought that was a *warning* for when he starts proving the thing :D
22:10:17 <oerjan> Ahoalton: warning, elliott is the resident channel cynic
22:10:19 <elliott> Ahoalton: the wolfram guys gave him some mathematica code that reimplemented his submitted Perl, and it made mathematica crash, as in a segfault
22:10:31 <elliott> oerjan: hey now, the fact that mathematica sucks is well-known :)
22:10:33 <oerjan> although some others seem to be converting
22:10:46 <oerjan> elliott: i'm speaking generally here
22:10:59 <oklopol> j-invariant: i guess i just don't know anything about multivariate stuff
22:11:03 <elliott> Ahoalton: warning, oerjan is the resident channel superstitious guy
22:11:08 <elliott> oerjan: speaking generally!
22:11:17 <j-invariant> oklopol: http://math.uga.edu/~pete/4400ChevalleyWarning.pdf
22:11:34 <j-invariant> oklopol: and the EGZ theorem is super cool
22:12:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:12:21 <fizzie> I used to write down maths homework half the time in LaTeX, the other half in a Mathematica notebook. It wasn't that bad for that, and at least you had it open for checking things.
22:12:37 <elliott> j-invariant: answer his question!
22:13:11 <quintopia> perhaps dropping my pronouns around you people is a bad idea
22:13:19 <elliott> Ahoalton: you're on DIALUP?
22:13:23 <oklopol> are you a spane or something
22:13:25 <quintopia> sorry for being lazy but i am@typing on my phone so...
22:13:37 <quintopia> also i found out i can do it with gloves on
22:14:23 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe Level3 just already ran out of IP addresses and started reusing dialup-named ones.
22:14:27 <quintopia> i need both hands wide open to rub my penis
22:14:39 <j-invariant> quintopia: If you have a collection of n different numbers, there is a subset of size <= 2n which sums to 0 (mod n)
22:15:11 <oklopol> j-invariant: isn't that a bit too much on the safe side?
22:15:12 <elliott> so hey oerjan change the model so that insert isn't a special case :
22:15:24 <Ahoalton> how do you know my connection elliott
22:15:27 <fizzie> (It's in their old 4.0.0.0/8 net, so you can't really tell much from the address.)
22:15:32 <elliott> Ahoalton: it's in your /whoi
22:15:38 <elliott> * [Ahoalton] (IceChat09@dialup-4.249.228.55.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net): The Chat Cool People Use
22:16:20 <oklopol> so umm how about 1 n/2 times
22:16:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:16:27 <elliott> unless you like, use gopher
22:16:39 <Ahoalton> I can do everything but watch videos
22:16:44 <quintopia> oklopol: you need n different numbers in the multiset
22:16:58 <elliott> Ahoalton: like the web except usable on dialup and also useless
22:17:21 <Ahoalton> uhh, no I use firefox and the normal internet with noscript and adblock
22:17:26 <oklopol> so just take any number n times?
22:17:34 <oklopol> can someone state the problem without errors?
22:17:35 <elliott> Ahoalton: right, so loading google.com prolly only takes you about 4 minutes?
22:17:47 <Ahoalton> and I can even torrent, if not slowly a
22:18:21 <fizzie> Google's rather bandwith-optimized, for obvious reasons.
22:18:23 <elliott> i can't imagine torrenting anything on dialup
22:18:23 <quintopia> oklopol: i assume it is in the linked paper
22:18:54 <elliott> oerjan: hey i can do a HACK
22:18:58 <elliott> oerjan: | dps == [SOF} || dps == [EOF]
22:19:02 <elliott> oerjan: since non-Insert deps lists are only one long
22:19:10 <quintopia> elliott: they don't call them torrents.
22:19:12 -!- Ahoalton has left (?).
22:19:22 <elliott> yay, another newbie scared away
22:19:29 <elliott> at least that one didn't know what esolangs are
22:20:41 <elliott> he just came in and then asked how the hell he got here
22:20:44 <elliott> and then defended mathematica
22:20:46 <fizzie> Anyway, dialup's not *that* slow, I think I used to get something like 30-40 kbps from the theoretically-56k connection.
22:20:46 <oklopol> there was no n/2 i suppose
22:20:47 <elliott> and asked what esolangs are
22:21:01 <fizzie> elliott: And then you ANNOYED him away.
22:21:12 <elliott> fizzie: he said YA'LL, not ELLIOTT
22:21:18 <elliott> i blame quintopia personally
22:21:27 <Ilari> Hmm... Hash function that blows up if you feed 65536YiB to it in one message... Meh.
22:21:31 <fizzie> It was the non-royal ya'll, meaning "you", in this particular case "just you".
22:21:36 <elliott> Ilari: Oh no, how horrible :P
22:21:51 <elliott> fizzie: The non-royal ya'll... the most USELESS WORD EVER
22:22:03 <elliott> The only purpose of y'all existing is to be a plural you :P
22:22:39 <oerjan> if all y'all think that, elliott
22:22:41 <Deewiant> ya'll is short for "ya will" i.e. "you will"
22:22:58 <elliott> Deewiant: True, I will indeed are annoying at some point.
22:23:44 <j-invariant> 22:24 < oerjan> if all y'all think that, elliott
22:23:51 <fizzie> Ilari: That compares favorably to SHA-1/SHA-2, which both have a maximum message length of 2^64-1 bits, i.e. 2 EiB (minus one bit).
22:23:57 <elliott> j-invariant: STOP COPYING OUR MESSAGES
22:24:22 <fizzie> (Well, SHA-256 variant of SHA-2; SHA-512 has 2^128-1 bits.)
22:24:24 <oklopol> (although it is certainly obvious floor(n/2) works)
22:25:14 <elliott> oerjan: hey why isn't there a name for foldr . reverse (modulo making that correct)
22:25:38 <elliott> oerjan: i.e. if i have a list of changes [a,b,c,d] and a must come before b, b must come before c, etc., then the right thing is "foldrM apply xs (reverse listOfChanges)"
22:25:41 <elliott> j-invariant: er not really?
22:26:26 <elliott> > foldl (flip f) end [a,b,c,d]
22:26:31 <elliott> > foldl (flip f) x [a,b,c,d]
22:26:44 <oklopol> j-invariant: is n/2 optimal?
22:26:59 <j-invariant> oklopol: well the theorem says you have 2n-1 things, and there is a subsequence of size at most n
22:27:13 <j-invariant> oklopol: if it's optimal it will be optimal on oen of the prime numbers
22:27:58 <oerjan> elliott: looks like one of the rare possible uses for foldl rather than foldl'
22:28:06 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
22:28:07 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
22:28:20 <elliott> oerjan: i guess it might be marginally more efficient
22:28:22 <oerjan> elliott: non-strictness
22:28:25 <elliott> oerjan: if a change overwrites another change?
22:28:46 <oerjan> elliott: oh well then maybe you want foldl' anyhow
22:28:55 <elliott> oerjan: well i just wonder why you think foldl would help
22:29:16 <oerjan> elliott: well i mean for that foldr ... . reverse thing in general
22:29:30 <Ilari> Not to mention that hashing even a 1PiB in single message would take a fast computer with a fast hash algorithm about 24 days...
22:29:34 <elliott> oerjan: foldl' just makes me feel bad in general
22:29:38 <elliott> oerjan: actually so does foldl
22:29:52 <elliott> oerjan: note that in this case it's _actually_ foldM
22:29:55 <elliott> oerjan: because applies can fail
22:30:07 <elliott> oerjan: so I think it's already the equivalent of foldl'
22:30:10 <lambdabot> foldM f a (x:xs) = f a x >>= \fax -> foldM f fax xs
22:30:36 <Sgeo> elliott, in your opinion, does making a language easier to implement make it worth crippling the language?
22:30:50 <Sgeo> Erm, by easier, I think he means nicer
22:31:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Well, unless it's to make a theoretical model.
22:31:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Who, what language, and what crippling?
22:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You want a language to use, not to stare at the interpreter.
22:31:22 <Sgeo> http://raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/atomo/today.txt
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22:31:38 <elliott> Sgeo: Another exception: Toy languages like Atomo.
22:31:57 <elliott> Sgeo: i.e., if you're just exploring the design space, you can do whatever.
22:32:03 <elliott> And generally implementation ease wins out there.
22:32:26 <Phantom_Hoover> *turned up in my head, and I want to know what it's supposed to mean.
22:32:34 <Sgeo> Am I misinterpreting what he's saying?
22:32:35 <oerjan> elliott: hm yeah it's foldl' except in the rare case where you can deduce a Nothing as the result from only the outer part of it
22:32:48 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't know, I don't know Atomo.
22:33:19 <elliott> oerjan: can you make ais appear here
22:33:23 <elliott> i need to ask him qs about scapegoat!
22:33:23 <Sgeo> He removed the ability to change an object's delegate so that the implementation becomes much nicer
22:33:33 <fizzie> Ilari: How did you arrive to that number? Because I went by Skein, which reportedly does 500 GiB/s on a 3.1 GHz x64 Core 2 Duo, and that gives 1*1024*1024/0.5/60/60/24 ~ 24.27, which is suspiciously similar.
22:33:36 <oerjan> elliott: or wait, the definition of foldM makes that foldl' for Maybes
22:33:49 <elliott> Sgeo: If changing delegates is a Bad Thing to do anyway, then it's a good decision.
22:33:54 <elliott> Sgeo: I suspect it is a bad decision.
22:34:09 <fizzie> (500 gigabytes/sec would be pretty impressive.)
22:34:34 <Sgeo> http://files.slatelanguage.org/doc/pmd/talk.pdf argues that the ability to change delegates is a very, very good thing
22:34:51 <Sgeo> Store a piece of state as "which ancestor" instead of as a slot on the object
22:35:17 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: no, he wrote another toy language, "Atomy", with a much simpler model for objects, then backported the changes
22:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Goddamn it, why are there no Linux browsers with built-in PDF readers.
22:35:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Its built-in reader renders text really badly though.
22:35:54 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, uh?
22:36:00 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
22:36:15 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i see no evidence for that
22:37:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: considering that his github has no atomy repo, and you haven't provided any sort of evidence at all, I don't see why I should
22:37:08 <elliott> did he tell you that, or osmething?
22:37:10 <Mathnerd314> elliott: https://bitbucket.org/alex/atomy/
22:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> When I click on links to PDFs, it downloads as normal.
22:37:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: by chrome, do you mean Debian's chromium package?
22:37:37 <elliott> I bet it doesn't come with the pdf reader
22:37:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's a bad reader though, I don't recommend it, text is really ugly
22:37:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, it's fairly outdated I think.
22:38:03 <elliott> Since Chrome gets updated roughly every millisecond.
22:38:12 <elliott> (Silently, and automatically, like Minecraft!)
22:38:27 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:38:38 <elliott> just providin' a data point
22:39:23 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how to most effectively compress music to fit in MC music circuits.
22:39:32 <quintopia> (and a beard but that is irrelevant)
22:39:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh my god, let's wire one up to the CPU.
22:39:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT MUST BE DONE
22:39:50 * oerjan likes the occasional beer but hasn't had one for months
22:40:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, have you *seen* the time that thing takes per iteration?
22:40:24 <quintopia> if you would promise not to swat me
22:40:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'D BE A VERY SLOW SONG
22:40:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do the rendition of the Lincolnshire Poacher heard on the numbers station of the same name.
22:40:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It creeps me out. Like a creeper.
22:40:43 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't like beer _that_ much
22:40:56 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Well, we're talking note-level. <-- some MIDI?
22:40:59 <Ilari> fizzie: I used bit higher clock rate (i7 can have one) and 6 clocks per byte.
22:41:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In fact, make it activated by a pressure plate, and surround your house with them, so that when a creeper steps on them, it plays it.
22:41:10 <Sgeo> Has people smelling clean sheets, then narrator says they were washed 7 days ago
22:41:16 <Sgeo> How is that interesting?/
22:41:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, though a different scheme is probably better
22:41:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poacher.ogg
22:41:24 <Sgeo> Sure, maybe after 7 days of regular use, etc.
22:42:09 <quintopia> sgeo: it's a commentary on people who like the smell of sweat
22:42:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:45:20 <fizzie> Ilari: Well, Skein is also described a 6.1 clocks/byte; does something else do 6?
22:46:21 <Ilari> Some other implementation reportedly did 5.99.
22:48:10 <fizzie> quintopia: It's one of the SHA-3 contest hash functions.
22:48:53 <fizzie> I feel tempted to say "Schneier's one", but it *does* have other authors, and I don't want to slight them.
22:49:12 <quintopia> speaking of contests, I haven't checked up on the netflix prize in almost a year....
22:49:36 <fizzie> Didn't they already award it to someone?
22:49:48 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
22:50:05 <quintopia> i dunno. like i said...haven't checked
22:50:44 <fizzie> "On September 18, 2009, Netflix announced team "BellKor's Pragmatic Chaos" as the prize winner, and the prize was awarded to the team in a ceremony on September 21, 2009.[22] "The Ensemble" team had in fact succeeded to match BellKor's result, but since BellKor submitted their results 20 minutes earlier, the rules award the prize to them."
22:50:51 <fizzie> What a dramatic moment.
22:52:55 <quintopia> well i assume they have implemented that algorithm on their servers now
22:52:57 <fizzie> "In the past few months, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) asked us how a Netflix Prize sequel might affect Netflix members' privacy, and a lawsuit was filed by KamberLaw LLC pertaining to the sequel."
22:52:58 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:53:04 <fizzie> "In light of all this, we have decided to not pursue the Netflix Prize sequel that we announced on August 6, 2009."
22:53:23 <fizzie> I think I remember reading about the lawsuit, but not that they decided to cancel the new competition.
22:53:44 <quintopia> as i recall, all their test data were anonymouse
22:53:54 <fizzie> Well, anonymized to some degree.
22:54:01 <fizzie> It's always arguable how much of that can be done.
22:54:02 <quintopia> why would the sequel dompromise privacy'
22:54:25 <fizzie> They were worried about the first contest already.
22:54:37 <fizzie> Some people identified particular users by cross-correlating against IMDB ratings.
22:54:48 <quintopia> anonymized inasmuch as they removed all references to actual people and randomize some of the data
22:55:34 <fizzie> "The ratings of less-popular films, coupled with the dates they're rated, form a kind of movie-preference fingerprint that can be used to make matches, the researchers concluded."
22:56:03 <fizzie> They can't add too much random noise before their data set goes too far from the real data for sensible algorithm evaluation and such.
22:56:09 <quintopia> oh shit. ghey can find out what movies people like!
22:56:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:57:04 <pikhq> So. Minecraft is really, really, really addictive.
22:57:22 <fizzie> I think also Netflix people may have said in their Terms that they won't tell other people what they're renting.
22:57:27 <elliott> pikhq: You've had it for, what, 3 hours? :P
22:57:40 <pikhq> elliott: Guess how long I've been playing it!
22:57:58 <elliott> 04:39:30 <j-invariant> does the minecraft world wrap around?
22:57:58 <elliott> 04:39:37 <j-invariant> ilke a donus
22:58:02 <j-invariant> this reminds me, I should be playing minecraft
22:58:05 <elliott> j-invariant: dunno, why not walk to the edge and find out :D
22:58:16 <pikhq> elliott: You are an evil man.
22:58:17 <j-invariant> elliott: I thought I hade looped but turns out I just went in a circle
22:58:28 <elliott> j-invariant: it has 4x the surface area of the earth
22:58:34 <elliott> j-invariant: you will nevereverever find the edgee
22:58:44 <elliott> if you walked for real-world years constantly ... still no
22:59:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah then it'd just lag forever
22:59:08 <fizzie> elliott: Don't they always say 8x?
22:59:09 <j-invariant> one thing which sucks is I can't leave minecraft running the background while I am here on IRC
22:59:47 <elliott> j-invariant: btw re: source code, minecraft is "open" in that decompiling java produces something almost identical to the original code minus variable names, and there's a bunch of batch files (apparently with a shell script version) that deobfuscate most of the class, variable and method names
22:59:50 <elliott> and you can use this for modding
22:59:58 <elliott> 05:21:47 <fizzie> 4.27 m/s, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Transportation
23:00:02 <elliott> fizzie: Scale that to the Minecraft day.
23:00:05 <j-invariant> elliott: geez he should just release the code :P
23:00:07 <elliott> fizzie: i.e., 20 minutes vs. 24 hours
23:00:24 <elliott> j-invariant: Yeah, well, Asteroids II will come with full Amber source code.
23:01:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the days are 20 minutes
23:01:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sunrise/set are 1.5 each.
23:01:37 <fizzie> And dusk/dawn are the other 3.
23:01:37 <elliott> See http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Day/night_cycle.
23:01:48 <elliott> <j-invariant> one thing which sucks is I can't leave minecraft running the background while I am here on IRC
23:02:01 <elliott> fizzie: Phantom_Hoover: Gem from that page: "Actual time of Sunset will not change if the texture for the sun is changed. The day/night cycle will be the same length with the same effects even if the sun is visibly larger or smaller."
23:03:38 <j-invariant> I wish you could put a collar around animals so they don't disappear
23:03:48 <elliott> ubuntu is getting really great lately
23:03:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well that doesn't seem too insane really. Maybe texture packs should be able to provide a parameter for it
23:04:18 <elliott> This option has shown up in the 0.2.2_01 release.
23:04:18 <elliott> true - the server will behave like The Nether; red sky, zombie pigmen and ghasts spawning. The map will stay the same, however, so don't set this flag if you don't want pigmen stomping all over your flower garden.
23:04:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can get red sky, zombie pigmen, and ghasts on a normal map.
23:04:31 <elliott> That would be ... so amazing
23:04:41 <elliott> Server checks connecting players against minecraft's account database. Only set this to false if your server is not connected to the Internet. Hackers with fake accounts can connect if this is set to false!
23:04:42 <elliott> true - Enabled. The server will assume it has an Internet connection and check every player.
23:04:43 <elliott> false - Disabled. The server will not attempt to check connecting players.
23:04:45 <elliott> You don't even need a mod.
23:05:02 <Vorpal> of course not. But to provide any level of security you do
23:05:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's in server.properties, at least.
23:05:18 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Server.properties
23:05:35 <elliott> 05:25:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: He wanted to be the guy who's been furthest away from spawn, so I was computerizing how much walking would it take to get to (100k,100k).
23:05:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, online-mode would allow me to log in as you and dump your inventory in one of my chests for example. And that thing has been around for ages.
23:05:39 <elliott> oklopol: me and Phantom_Hoover have been there.
23:05:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think that's new.
23:06:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Jeb still WORKS FOR NOTCH and ostensibly agrees with his main opinions.
23:07:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And didn't veto the switch from git to svn.
23:07:05 <fizzie> elliott: Well, 4.27 blocks/IRL-second → 4.27/72 game-metres/game-second → 213.5 metres/hour. Okay, that's not a very fast walk.
23:07:41 <elliott> fizzie: You have verified my theory that everything in the Minecraft world is really, really slow and we just view it from a zoom lens.
23:07:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:08:23 <Vorpal> elliott, but you hate git now...?
23:08:25 <fizzie> elliott: Well, minecarts can travel up to 0.25 mph.
23:08:28 <zzo38> Is there a mathematical proof that a programming language cannot be both turing-complete and reversible?
23:08:57 <elliott> zzo38: No, because it can be.
23:09:27 <Vorpal> (I forgot the conversion factor for that)
23:09:48 <zzo38> elliott: It is what I thought, yes it can be both.
23:11:46 <fizzie> (28.8 km/h if you count metres in game-blocks but time in IRL terms.)
23:11:57 <zzo38> Someone mentioned a proof: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:2D-Reverse
23:12:51 <elliott> pikhq: The Art of Computer Programming, Volume 4A: Combinatorial Algorithms, Part I, has been released.
23:13:35 <elliott> j-invariant: hey is that the book you were referring to?
23:13:46 <elliott> j-invariant: of course you should by TAoCP! all of it! NOWWWW
23:14:27 <zzo38> I do not have it but I would like to buy it too.
23:14:49 <fizzie> Amazon sells a reasonably priced reasonably pretty box of TAoCP 1-3.
23:14:54 <j-invariant> zzo38: there are turing equivalent reverseible prorgamming languages
23:15:19 <j-invariant> zzo38: there is also a notation of "reversibly turing complete" which means it does not store its whole execution trace (while still being reversible)
23:15:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YES. (Note: It costs like £100 for the box set.)
23:16:00 <fizzie> For Volume 4, I think I'll wait until they sell a box with at least 4A, 4B and 4C.
23:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Random things that immensely annoy me about Doctor Who part n: how many times is humanity going to make first contact?
23:16:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:16:26 <zzo38> j-invariant: I expect 2D-Reverse is reversible and turing-complete.
23:16:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like how everyone acts completely normally even though aliens have been shown to definitely exist, rather dramatically.
23:17:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody ever talks about them. Ever.
23:17:08 <fizzie> Heh, Amazon already has a Volume 1-4A box (for pre-order).
23:17:39 <elliott> olsner: "ridiculous. ant/nant is already the ultimate build system." --actual person expressing actual, non-sarcastic opinion
23:17:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It got particularly ridiculous when noöne bothered to tell Donna that she had missed about 3 alien invasions.
23:18:46 <fizzie> http://www.amazon.com/Art-Computer-Programming-Volumes-Boxed/dp/0201485419/ -- this is the version I have, and it's sort-of reasonably priced; but of course if you don't have volumes 1-3, the new box -- http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Programming-Volumes-1-4A-Boxed/dp/0321751043/ -- probably has updates in 1-3 too. (Since it's called "third edition" and all.)
23:19:33 <elliott> I wish ais was here so I could ask if all changesets should just be stored topographically sorted to avoid recomputing, or if there's some reason why that can't work.
23:19:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "Anything happen while I was away?" "Well, some aliens invaded and killed a bunch of people, but that's old news."
23:20:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're forgetting the part where the Earth got TRANSPORTED TO ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM, which apparently made the sky transparent for some reason.
23:20:18 <elliott> Or was Donna there for that?
23:20:21 <elliott> Point is, nobody's mentioned it since.
23:20:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes.
23:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> If there was another planet nearby in the sky, we'd see it clearly.
23:20:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But I mean, it became black with planets dotted in it.
23:20:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *Yes*, but there was a suspicious lack of *blue*.
23:21:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Err, wasn't there?
23:21:39 <elliott> The rest of my line still stands.
23:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The bit about everyone forgetting and going about their lives?
23:22:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I now know what causes the lag to ineiros. Packet loss.
23:23:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal had finally solved the greatest problem of his existence.
23:23:26 * Sgeo ponders redownloading ... those links elliott mentioned
23:23:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did I claim that...?
23:23:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where did you get that idea from
23:24:40 <Phantom_Hoover> But the timeline and continuity is irrevocably screwed up, probably because RTD is a grade-A idiot.
23:24:44 <fizzie> 4A has a pretty limited topic (7.1 zeros and ones, incl. 7.1.3 bitwise tricks and techniques, plus 7.2.1 combinatorial generators), leaving many juicy bits (7.3 shortest paths, 7.4 graph algos, 7.5 network algos, etc.) for volumes 4B, 4C, ...; even given that it manages to be 912 pages. So my guess is it's rather knuthian in depth.
23:25:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They should devote two whole series to reconstructing the timeline.
23:25:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider that it can't possibly be in sync with the real-world time.
23:26:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have it start with the "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" speech from Blink!
23:27:24 <Sgeo> elliott, your links don't work
23:27:49 <Sgeo> As in, trying to use the downloaded files doens't work
23:28:21 <elliott> Sgeo: They do if you have a friend who's willing to let you access their MC account once.
23:28:23 <fizzie> Heh, from Knuth's page: "Volume 5, Syntactic Algorithms, in preparation: 9. Lexical scanning (includes also string search and data compression); 10. Parsing techniques. Estimated to be ready by 2020." Well, he certainly is optimistic.
23:28:28 <Sgeo> "Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute from .."
23:28:46 <elliott> fizzie: He has discovered the Fountain of Youth.
23:28:47 <fizzie> "After Volume 5 has been completed, I will revise Volumes 1--3 again to bring them up to date. In particular, the new material for those volumes that has been issued in beta-test fascicles will be incorporated at that time.
23:28:48 <fizzie> Then I will publish a ``reader's digest'' edition of Volumes 1--5, condensing the most important material into a single book.
23:28:48 <fizzie> And after Volumes 1--5 are done, God willing, I plan to publish Volume 6 (the theory of context-free languages) and Volume 7 (Compiler techniques), but only if the things I want to say about those topics are still relevant and still haven't been said." That's probably around 2100 or so, then.
23:29:02 <Sgeo> C:\Users\Sgeo\Downloads\MinecraftNew\minecraft.jar"
23:29:50 <elliott> It goes in %APPDATA%\.minecraft\bin.
23:30:03 <elliott> And you need Minecraft.jar (uppercase M) from the minecraft.net site (placed anywhere) to launch it.
23:30:43 <Sgeo> Why is there a Minecraft.jar and a minecraft.jar?
23:30:50 <Sgeo> Notch-quality naming scheme
23:31:18 <Sgeo> Does the Minecraft.jar have to be up to date?
23:32:27 <Sgeo> what will happen to my alpha save?
23:32:32 <Sgeo> Should I just delete it?
23:32:55 <Phantom_Hoover> More grievances with Doctor Who: what was with everyone acting like everything was fine after they rewound time in the series 3 finale?
23:33:00 * Sgeo is happy that he won't need to go coal hunting
23:33:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, you'll need to mine.
23:33:11 <elliott> And mining of any sort = tons of coal.
23:33:40 <Sgeo> I don't strictly speaking need to mine, if I'm fine being bored on the surface the whole time
23:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you've pulled yourselves out of the situation doesn't magically fix everything.
23:33:49 <Sgeo> But it means I won't need to rush to get coal
23:34:06 <elliott> Sgeo: If you're not on Peaceful, you need to mine to get the stuff you need to not die.
23:35:28 <Deewiant> Or you can just avoid things that kill you.
23:35:45 <Sgeo> elliott, shelter, lighting, what else?
23:36:10 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm way ahead of you: I *won* Minecraft.
23:36:18 <elliott> Sgeo: How to win Minecraft:
23:36:21 <elliott> Find a hill made out of dirt.
23:36:33 <elliott> Take two blocks, one above the other, starting at ground level, from the hill.
23:36:41 <elliott> Place them just in front of you, looking outwards.
23:36:55 <elliott> Congratulations, you have mined two blocks, placed two blocks, and are in an invincible shelter.
23:36:59 <elliott> Monsters can never harm you.
23:37:17 <pikhq> Unless you want to enjoy yourself.
23:37:36 <elliott> Well, yeah, but it's the winning that's important.
23:37:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DON'T REVEAL THE PLANS.
23:37:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, if the airbase gets big enough, we'll need a ceiling (glass, probably); otherwise monsters will spawn like 40 blocks away.
23:37:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Or you can just put it on peaceful and mine the fuck out of everything.
23:38:14 <elliott> pikhq: Peaceful single-player is rather boring most of the time.
23:38:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, sure.
23:38:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or... MAKE THE AIRBASE OUT OF STEPS
23:38:37 <Sgeo> My mouse will STILL not stay in the window
23:38:48 * Sgeo gives up for now
23:39:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Your computer is broken.
23:40:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:41:46 <Sgeo> C:\Users\Sgeo>java -version
23:41:46 <Sgeo> java version "1.6.0_22"
23:41:46 <Sgeo> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_22-b04)
23:41:46 <Sgeo> Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 17.1-b03, mixed mode)
23:42:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Screenshot of Minecraft running?
23:42:39 <elliott> With your mouse inside the window.
23:43:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:43:07 <Sgeo> Incidentally, the .minecraft is an amalgamation of those files and nooga's source's files
23:43:10 <Sgeo> That's probably it
23:43:22 <Sgeo> But I don't know how to fix it
23:43:54 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I intend to soon
23:43:57 <Vorpal> (the amalgation of files)
23:44:16 <j-invariant> I am very happy to have bought it, it was well worth it
23:44:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and I'm sure ineiros will let you on then. Even if elliott will hate that.
23:45:03 <Vorpal> j-invariant, the only issue is the addiction. But I guess Sgeo has that already
23:45:05 <Sgeo> elliott wants me on so I can do drudge work
23:45:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo, refuse to once you get on and instead go build some awesome thing some distance away :)
23:46:13 <Sgeo> I have a boring idea
23:47:14 <Sgeo> One block, then to the left block above air, then to the left, block block, then to the left, block air air, etc
23:47:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo, better idea: build a houseboat as your base. Won't be able to move yet (perhaps if we get movecraft!). But awesome
23:48:21 <Sgeo> elliott, I did say my idea was boring
23:48:22 <oklopol> can you build cars of some sort in movecraft
23:48:35 <elliott> oklopol: if they hover in the air, i guess
23:48:41 <elliott> oklopol: it empties chests though
23:48:54 <Vorpal> elliott, that will likely be fixed soon
23:48:56 <Sgeo> When will it not empty chests?
23:48:59 <Vorpal> I spoke to the authors
23:49:13 <Vorpal> movecraft is cool, and getting cooler every day
23:49:17 <Sgeo> Is it possible to use water to get down from any height safely?/
23:49:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, 2 deep pool at the bottom
23:49:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, 1 deep won't work
23:49:46 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you need 2 deep or deeper
23:49:50 <Sgeo> If you don't have access to the bottom?
23:49:58 <Sgeo> And are spilling the water from a height?
23:50:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:50:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I guess you could carefully go down a waterfall
23:50:08 <oklopol> is it theoretically impossible to get down safely from a single block up in the air?
23:50:10 <Sgeo> How do normal people get down from a scaffold?
23:50:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, not if you have a bucket of water with you
23:50:40 -!- Behold has joined.
23:50:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you walk down it if you built it that way
23:50:46 <elliott> sneak to the edge of the block, place one sand, run back onto the block so you don't fall
23:50:50 <elliott> repeat until there's a full tower
23:50:51 <oklopol> using just dirt, that was kinda important
23:50:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, or if it is a 1x1 pillar then you dig down
23:51:03 <elliott> oklopol: are we to assume that there is no terrain nearby?
23:51:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:51:23 <oklopol> all terrain in the world is 10 lower than you
23:51:31 <oklopol> obviously you can move arbitrarily far at your height
23:51:36 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, you can use water to get down. you can even remove the water and dirt first
23:51:45 <oklopol> assuming you have an infinite amount of dirt at least
23:51:47 <elliott> place water, step on water, carefully remove dirt, bucket water, follow stream down
23:51:56 <elliott> oklopol: trivially impossible then afaics
23:52:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, if all terrain is 10 below you
23:52:38 <Vorpal> oklopol, then built out until you are above 2 deep water
23:52:42 <Vorpal> oklopol, then jump down
23:52:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, I think elliott has me on ignore so tell him I solved it
23:52:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:52:55 <oklopol> obviously all that terrain is dirt
23:53:00 <elliott> Sgeo: if you're on one block of dirt
23:53:07 <Vorpal> oklopol, not obviously. You didn't say that :P
23:53:21 <elliott> oklopol: maybe if you remove the dirt block below you, wait until you're in placing-range of the terrain below, then rapid-fire :D
23:53:29 <oklopol> well that's the natural question
23:53:31 <Sgeo> If you follow a stream down, and it ends up not being 2 deep at the bottom
23:53:33 <elliott> you'd only fall 4 blocks, if you can place blocks instantly
23:53:38 <oklopol> elliott: 10 is enough to forbid that
23:53:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think that will work
23:53:46 <elliott> oklopol: you can place from 6 blocks
23:53:56 <elliott> until there's a block below you
23:54:10 <Vorpal> 3 does not hurt. 4 does
23:54:11 <oklopol> that's why 10. that's a lie, i just chose it arbitrarily.
23:54:41 <elliott> fizzie: "Bees, bees, bees, bees!" --slogan
23:54:48 <oklopol> what i was thinking was something crazy like jumping down so you can start putting stuff under your original block, but obviously you still can't put a block under yourself...
23:55:06 * Sgeo attempts to examine schedules again
23:55:11 <Sgeo> And trying not to go mad
23:56:17 <Vorpal> hah: http://i.imgur.com/uWV6r.jpg
23:56:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover logreading: Bad thing about skybase: Respawning often offsets you enough that you fall to your death.
23:58:09 <oklopol> so if you have sand and dirt, you can actually reach any cell from any cell
23:58:21 <oklopol> starting and ending on top of single block
23:58:29 <Vorpal> j-invariant, also this is seriously cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPVYrltke4
23:58:36 <Vorpal> a bit glitchy in the middle
23:58:52 <elliott> i don't see how you could get up again to a single block
23:58:53 <Vorpal> a bit waste of space though to not reuse block for same tone
23:59:13 <oklopol> elliott: using dirt, just make a staircase and break it as you go up for instance
23:59:29 <elliott> oklopol: how can you break the block before your current one
23:59:41 <elliott> how do you break bottom-right
23:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, by shifting out on the edge
23:59:48 <oklopol> you can even just break the block two down from you, then jump up and place under you'
23:59:49 <elliott> i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the