00:00:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the <-- yes it is
00:00:28 <Vorpal> oklopol, you can tell him what I said. He is obviously /ignore-ing me. I don't know why
00:01:02 <oklopol> what exactly should i tell him?
00:01:11 <elliott> http://image.bayimg.com/padlgaade.jpg
00:01:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, that I told him how it is possible to do that :P
00:01:19 <Sgeo> elliott, are you ignoring Vorpal?
00:01:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:01:44 <elliott> Until XChat can be configured to ignore mentions of names I will have to do it mentally.
00:01:44 -!- pumpkin has joined.
00:01:51 <elliott> I'll write a script to do it at some point.
00:02:02 <Vorpal> how strange. Well if that is his style
00:02:11 <Sgeo> elliott, Vorpal suggested sneaking over the edge
00:02:30 <Vorpal> he will refuse to acknowledge this
00:02:33 <elliott> Sgeo: I recommend not trying to evade ignores.
00:02:36 <Vorpal> which will be utterly stupid
00:02:40 <Vorpal> that is what I told you
00:02:53 <elliott> Vorpal might note that that method is exactly what I said, however.
00:02:56 <oklopol> elliott: Vorpal suggested what Sgeo said, but you don't even need to have that, all we need is that you can remove the topmost dirt from piles close to you, if you have good visibility
00:03:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal might note that that method is exactly what I said, however. <-- no
00:03:11 <oklopol> oh of course you then can't remove the last one
00:03:16 <Vorpal> you said "<elliott> i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the" after
00:04:16 <elliott> "The Blue Creeper is a new variety of creeper that spawns in the dark just like normal creepers, but they have a much different behaviour pattern. Instead of puffing up, these creepers launch themselves into the air like a rocket! After that, they explode on impact with the ground, so get out of there!!!"
00:04:44 <oklopol> but it's actually still possible with a slightly less powerful visibility (which i don't specify): you have AB and C on top of C, now add D next to A on another axis, remove B, then remove D, jump on C and remove A
00:04:49 <j-invariant> I was able to hook a creeper on the fishing line to actually get him off my treehouse :P
00:05:03 <elliott> oklopol: start minecraft theory
00:05:35 <Sgeo> Bloody piece of shit website
00:05:42 <Sgeo> STOP BEING DOWN
00:06:47 <elliott> j-invariant: http://twitter.com/pigworker/status/25835213661675520
00:06:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:07:02 <Sgeo> And it's back down
00:07:07 * Sgeo stabs elliott angrily
00:07:34 <Sgeo> I'm just taking out my anger at this website on you
00:07:50 <oklopol> elliott is an awesome punching bag
00:08:04 <elliott> indeed, but for the gormet punching experience may i recommend oklopol
00:08:34 <oklopol> i should probably eat some meat. and possibly some noodles.
00:09:11 <oklopol> yes, i have a binary scale from uninteresting to gourmet
00:10:41 <oklopol> it's actually a bit crazy that even if you have an infinite plane, there is actually no way to even get one block down from it
00:10:47 <oklopol> unless there already are blocks down
00:11:07 <oklopol> is there with some tool or something?
00:11:15 * Sgeo oohs at http://isup.me
00:11:16 <oklopol> sand doesn't help in this case
00:12:15 <fizzie> oklopol: If your spawn-point is on the plane, jump down, place blocks as you fall, die, respawn, go down.
00:12:29 <fizzie> I guess that doesn't quite count.
00:12:29 <oklopol> well sure, by using one life, you can lower the plane as much as you like
00:13:18 <elliott> you seriously haven't seen it before?
00:13:20 <oklopol> the whole plane, since if you have even one block under the plane, you can easily destroy the whole plane, and build another plane from that single block (ignoring the fact it's an infinite plane, but anyhow i think you can do it lazily)
00:13:29 <Sgeo> elliott, I haven't seen the shortened domain before.
00:13:44 <elliott> Sgeo: ...you're oohing at a domain being slightly shorter.
00:13:49 <elliott> Your... brain is... broken.
00:13:53 <fizzie> oklopol: Maybe if you ride a boat down you could (theoretically) place blocks as you fall in such a way that you'd be able to jump from the boat on to one of them. (I'm not sure how well you can jump from a falling boat, however.)
00:13:57 <elliott> Your brain is completely and utterly not working correctly in any way whatsoever.
00:14:00 <oklopol> oh my god Sgeo, what the hell did you just do! please apologize
00:14:09 <elliott> j-invariant: that hurts man, that hurts :D
00:14:10 <fizzie> oklopol: And then there was the water thing.
00:14:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> Sgeo: ...you're oohing at a domain being slightly shorter. <-- "slightly"?
00:14:41 <Vorpal> the one I remember is rather long
00:14:42 <oklopol> ohh right, make a waterfall, go down by boat, put some blocks, come up?
00:14:50 <fizzie> You can just swim down/up.
00:15:19 <oklopol> so again, that's kind of trivial
00:15:22 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't suppose you could hang at the "bottom" of a ladder and place a continuation block below where the ladder ends? (Probably not.)
00:15:34 <Sgeo> Seriously? Not having to type as much is not ooh worthy?
00:15:41 <Sgeo> [Bookmarks are useless for me]
00:15:43 <oklopol> i want a problem that doesn't have an *effective* solution, like you'd need a bot and it'd take ages to do
00:15:52 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't know, was wondering
00:15:55 <Vorpal> <fizzie> oklopol: Maybe if you ride a boat down you could (theoretically) place blocks as you fall in such a way that you'd be able to jump from the boat on to one of them. (I'm not sure how well you can jump from a falling boat, however.) <-- you can exit a falling boat. I don't think you can jump from one though. Never tried in single player since falling on a falling boat hurts (it falls slower than
00:15:55 <Vorpal> you do except when you hit it and your vertical speed is reset to zero)
00:15:56 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, it seriously is not
00:16:25 <Sgeo> There's a certain elegance to the new domain name
00:16:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, elliott is wrong
00:16:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, though perhaps you did over-react a bit
00:16:46 <Vorpal> but he is way too hard. I think he gone nuts recently
00:17:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well more than usually
00:17:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, he has been nuts for a long time
00:17:36 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure his reaction is typical of him
00:17:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well true. But I meant in general
00:18:00 <oklopol> are there minecraft puzzles somewhere?
00:18:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, that sounds interesting
00:18:26 <oklopol> maybe you could do some stuff with resource limitations, dunno
00:18:27 <Vorpal> oklopol, do you mean physical ones?
00:18:29 <fizzie> Sgeo: There's a domain (registered) called up.is, that could be made one of those is-it-up sites.
00:18:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, or puzzles to solve in-game?
00:18:42 <elliott> also if you're replying to Vorpal which I suspect, he's currently in his regular elliott whine mode
00:18:57 <elliott> where he uses every situation as an opportunity to talk about how horrible i am, i doubt j-invariant and oklopol got the same treatment despite them agreeing
00:19:00 <Vorpal> you are in going nuts mode
00:19:01 <oklopol> puzzles to solve in-game would necessarily be pretty trivial wouldn't they
00:19:04 <elliott> but then Vorpal never was one for consistency, non-hypocrisy, logic, ...
00:19:13 <elliott> oklopol: that's what ADVENTURE mode is going to be
00:19:16 <elliott> no block placing which is just stupid
00:19:17 <Vorpal> oh come on. You are not one for them either
00:19:32 <oklopol> well of course there has to be block placing and removing
00:19:51 <oklopol> otherwise obviously you can execute any puzzle as a computer program opening a door if the correct switches are used
00:20:24 <oklopol> or alternatively: that wouldn't really be a minecraft puzzle
00:21:01 <oklopol> Vorpal: in-game, sure, but in the sense that you are given extra rules
00:21:16 <fizzie> oklopol: Minecraft without block placement is like a farm without the wife walking on the granary path, you know. (I don't suppose the "talo ilman aitanpolulla astelevaa emäntää" thing is an international idiom.)
00:21:27 <oklopol> could you build a trap that can't be destroyed easily without dying?
00:21:28 <j-invariant> next time I'm setting up base somewhere isolated I am saving the coordinates
00:22:01 <j-invariant> P.S. how the hell am I supposed to SEE the coordinates over that graph
00:22:09 <olsner> Someone highlighted me.
00:22:14 <oklopol> that's a problem i have as well
00:22:23 <elliott> j-invariant: get a better cpu
00:22:26 <elliott> and it'll take up less of the graph :-)
00:22:41 <olsner> <elliott> olsner: "ridiculous. ant/nant is already the ultimate build system." --actual person expressing actual, non-sarcastic opinion
00:22:50 <fizzie> Using a larger and/or a differently shaped window might also help. (I don't know if it scales the font size or not.)
00:23:44 <elliott> olsner: when someone said "but XML" they replied "well nant fixes that!" (paraphrased)
00:23:49 <oklopol> hmm, could you make something like a huge amount of arrow guns that shoot at you no matter which way you approach the thing?
00:24:23 <elliott> oklopol: you can place dispensers in any direction
00:24:26 <elliott> shooting all the time? heh
00:24:27 <olsner> the only remedy would be if nant stands for "not ant", but even in the negative starting with ant is the wrong way
00:24:32 <elliott> that's just a constant redstone circuit
00:24:35 <oklopol> elliott: up as well? oh cool
00:24:45 <olsner> kind of like how SVN wouldn't have been any better if it was "not cvs" instead of "better cvs"
00:24:53 <fizzie> Is "nant" that Ant-like .net build tool? Because that's XML build files too.
00:25:02 <elliott> maybe it just uses LESS XML!
00:25:05 <oklopol> oh you just meant in any nwes direction
00:25:05 <elliott> oklopol: but if you build bedrock to top you can't go above anyway
00:25:10 <elliott> you can climb to the top, but
00:25:16 <elliott> that's basically unsolvable
00:25:21 <elliott> even with arrows, you could climb to the top
00:25:22 <fizzie> http://nant.sourceforge.net/release/latest/help/fundamentals/buildfiles.html -- yeah, I'm sure that's very nice to anyone who hates XML.
00:25:23 <elliott> and just jump over quickly
00:25:29 <oklopol> is it? what if you build a wall as you go
00:25:35 <elliott> you'd get killed from the fall though
00:25:40 <oklopol> we may assume a single arrow kills you
00:26:09 <elliott> oklopol: are the cows in this model spherical?
00:26:10 <oklopol> elliott: like, dunno, somehow shield yourself from the arrows
00:26:21 <olsner> great: "NAnt's build files are written in XML. Each build file contains one project and a number of targets. Each target contains a number of tasks."
00:26:21 <oklopol> if it makes the puzzle interesting, sure
00:26:22 <elliott> oklopol: i think it's quite simple
00:26:32 <olsner> that's *exactly what ant does*
00:26:44 <elliott> oklopol: does the inside need to be guarded too?
00:26:52 <elliott> i.e. do you want people inside to be shot
00:27:07 <oklopol> that's the goal, to get inside
00:27:09 <fizzie> olsner: That's not surprising, given that it's designed to be "like Ant".
00:27:14 <elliott> oklopol: build each wall with the arrows facing outwards
00:27:38 <elliott> oklopol: this misses diagonals, so if you approach from a diagonal, time it right, and put two dirt in front of you, you can shield
00:27:41 <oklopol> (btw i just realized you can just approach diagonally)
00:27:46 <olsner> fizzie: according to some supporters nant fixes all the problems with using xml
00:27:46 <elliott> well you might need two i think arrows go through one block with dispensers
00:27:50 <elliott> oklopol: and then you just have to like
00:27:57 <elliott> build one platform, place dirt over dispenser quickly
00:28:00 <elliott> repeat until you get to the top
00:28:09 <elliott> oklopol: start far enough away that the arrows don't reach you
00:28:09 <oklopol> maybe the trap sends minecarts shooting arrows by using zombies
00:28:17 <Sgeo> Do dispensers have any user other than weaponry?
00:28:31 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw
00:28:55 <oklopol> elliott: you can be higher than highest dirt?
00:29:04 <elliott> oklopol: you can stand on top of it
00:29:16 <elliott> oklopol: so the dispenser would be level with what you're standing on
00:29:19 <elliott> thus making you immune to its arrows
00:30:00 <elliott> oklopol: is your game done
00:30:12 <oklopol> in that case you can approach any trap: no trap can destroy your dirts, and no trap can shoot up, so you can just remove one layer of the trap at a time
00:31:10 <elliott> oklopol: question, you know your game
00:31:38 <elliott> oklopol: it's 2d universe right
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00:32:34 <elliott> oklopol: i have an idea you will enjoy
00:32:43 <elliott> oklopol: 3d universe with 2d cross-section interface
00:32:46 <elliott> oklopol: i.e. the dwarf fortress model
00:32:56 <elliott> all the freedom of 3d, all the beauty of 2d, all the incomprehensibility of the combination
00:32:59 <oklopol> yeah that's a retarded idea
00:33:50 <elliott> oklopol: why's it retarded :p
00:34:02 <oklopol> less ugly than the usual 3d view, sure, but so is rendering a 3d world as a butterfly flying around on your screen.
00:34:07 <oklopol> doesn't really make the gameplay all that fun.
00:34:31 <Sgeo> Why are you down, website? Why? Why must you do this to me?
00:34:37 <Sgeo> You are tearing me apart, website!
00:34:43 <oklopol> you would be a complete cripple against an enemy
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00:35:11 <oklopol> a human that uses the usual 3d rendering or an ai
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00:35:26 <elliott> oklopol: everyone's a cripple
00:35:28 <oklopol> 4d is always a viable option
00:35:38 <elliott> oklopol: now how you render this is
00:35:48 <quintopia> speaking of 4d...is that 4d platformer thing any closer to public playability/
00:35:54 <elliott> oklopol: pick a 4d->3d projection, preferably the craziest one you can think of that works in discrete space
00:36:04 <elliott> oklopol: then do the cross-section 3d->2d thing
00:36:13 <elliott> oklopol: congrats, least understandable world, ever
00:36:41 <Sgeo> http://www.sct-bus.org/br.html is up, but the main website isn't
00:36:44 <oklopol> maybe a 1d projection would be nice
00:37:09 <elliott> oklopol: use the most mathematically pretty Z^2 -> Z projection you can think of
00:37:13 <elliott> and render the plane in 1d like that
00:37:24 <elliott> oklopol: omg, then do a 3d projection like this:
00:37:25 <oklopol> hey that's actually a great idea
00:37:33 <elliott> oklopol: first row is everything with z=0, with that pretty projection
00:37:46 <elliott> and you'll have the most fucked-up 3D projection ever :D
00:37:59 <elliott> compress THAT with the same projection
00:38:01 <oklopol> nah we just need one dimension and a bijection with the 4d space
00:38:03 <elliott> and you've compressed 3D into 1D
00:38:08 <elliott> then do the same thing with rows again
00:38:20 <oklopol> and arrows drawn on top to show where the successor in each direction is
00:38:49 <elliott> movement would be completely incomprehensible
00:38:56 <elliott> you'd probably just jump about the plane seemingly randomly
00:38:56 <Sgeo> if ( temp == '.' ) { fileName=fileName }
00:38:57 <oklopol> the array gets randomly resorted all the time in order to make sure the hamming distances correspond well to distances on screen
00:39:02 <elliott> and things would just sorta flicker all the time
00:39:03 <Sgeo> Bloody hell is wrong with this website?
00:39:34 <olsner> #esoteric is not a "website"
00:39:42 <olsner> and it's supposed to work like this
00:40:24 <oklopol> elliott: so maybe 4d -> 2d + arrows + resorting
00:40:34 <oklopol> maybe it just shows a neighborhood as a graph
00:40:36 <elliott> oklopol: mine involved one, pretty projection?
00:40:57 <oklopol> but that's a stupid projection because you have to stay near spawn all the time
00:41:02 <oklopol> or you won't see what you're doing
00:41:17 <elliott> oklopol: um it always scrolls to show you where you are
00:41:26 <elliott> oklopol: you can hold like shift while pressing a direction
00:41:38 <elliott> i.e. center the view on the block to your [direction]
00:41:42 <elliott> and move around like that, without actually moving
00:41:44 <oklopol> it scrolls, yes, what i meant was the jumps get longer
00:41:47 <elliott> thus letting you GET TO GRIPS with the world
00:42:02 <oklopol> it's a feature that means you have to stay near spawn
00:42:06 <j-invariant> I wish you coud put down flags that would be your (nearest) spawnpoint
00:42:08 <oklopol> i prefer just rendering a graph
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00:43:10 <oklopol> ofc it's always the same graph, but i won't tell the randomized graph drawer that
00:43:21 <olsner> tomorrow I shall stop being so afraid of iretq
00:44:12 <elliott> olsner: how far is your os done
00:44:28 <olsner> I'd say a few operations short of iretq
00:45:10 <olsner> well srsly then - I was working on context switching then figured out it was a wee bit trickier than in theory
00:45:29 <olsner> (this was 3 weeks ago)
00:46:16 <olsner> I thought it should be doable without any of the fancy stuff that an iretq *can* do, not so sure anymore
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00:47:37 <olsner> interrupt return, quad version
00:47:55 <olsner> or iret with a 64-bit operand size
00:48:11 <Vorpal> olsner, is that the x86 family?
00:48:25 <j-invariant> did not do any work today, just played minecraft :|
00:48:50 <elliott> olsner: so what is your os actually going to be like
00:49:00 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Why are you down, website? Why? Why must you do this to me? <-- hey get with the memes, it's supposed to be "WEBSITE Y U NO WORK?"
00:49:13 <olsner> elliott: mostly yet to be determined, microkernelish
00:49:24 <Sgeo> I finally got my hands on the bus's schedule
00:49:48 <olsner> and, you know, there won't actually be an *operating* system, it'll just be a kernel until at least 2020
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00:50:41 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
00:50:43 <fizzie> Speaking of ambition, today I came across http://nhi1.berlios.de/ "The line from the evolution in computer-science up to the computer hardware development speed and the internet global computer network lead to the possibility to create the first Non Human Intelligence until 2040. [...] The NHI1 project will create an open intelligence."
00:50:51 <Vorpal> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
00:51:12 <fizzie> They have already solved natural language understanding: you just do "human language --> other language --> human language" and then make sure "other language" is "computer understand-able".
00:51:38 <EgoBot> 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [707]
00:51:45 <Vorpal> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
00:51:48 <EgoBot> 128 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>-. [771]
00:52:24 <elliott> olsner: hey 2020 is about when I expect @ to start taking shape...
00:52:40 <olsner> after fixing up context switching I think communicating processes will be next - then some kind of support for SMP systems, basically just whatever is needed for the kernel not to fuck itself immediately
00:52:47 <Vorpal> <fizzie> They have already solved natural language understanding: you just do "human language --> other language --> human language" and then make sure "other language" is "computer understand-able". <-- :D
00:53:05 <quintopia> OHEY Notch should add a fourth dimension mode to MC and completely remove the market for Miegakure :P
00:53:25 <olsner> e.g. I'd like it to be pre-emptive as soon as possible, but I think there are tricky bits in making that work right
00:53:36 <elliott> In the past days I had time to watch some tubes from Google tech-talk including the latest interviews from Eric Schmidt. I thing Google is the current technology PowerHouse and worth to serve as the first target of NHI1.
00:53:36 <elliott> Would that be Google as a verb or a noun? -> more noun as verb
00:53:51 <fizzie> elliott: They also have "theBrain", which is a key-value database, because, you know, that's all a brain is. Since "Data is the key point of every technology. Data have to be smart organized to be available with the speed and with the quality needed."
00:54:02 <elliott> fizzie: Tokyo Cabinet: it's intelligent!
00:54:21 <elliott> ~99% of all the data is located in the private (local) networks. (to check this, google (verb) for an average known (not famous) person from your own social environment and check the results available in the Internet. You will not find any data from the person own hard-drive, you will not find any data from the person employer, you will not find any private data from a Login-Required Internet zone like facebook... -> This all is good because priv
00:54:21 <elliott> ate is private and the opposite from public)
00:54:25 <fizzie> Yes, the Moggel thing was a bit curious too.
00:54:26 <elliott> Private is private and the opposite from public.
00:54:45 <elliott> The Project sounds a little bit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test-driven_development but it does, in fact, more. The goal is that the programmer does only write test-cases and the TDC is in duty to: write, organize and publish the software. Nobody, including the programmer itself, have to understand the software created.
00:54:45 <fizzie> elliott: Do note that "theCompiler" has some Clue-like tendencies. (Except it of course doesn't exist.)
00:54:48 <olsner> it irks me this full context switching thing though - there are a *lot* of registers to restore... cooperative multiprocessing would be nicer - not least because since you already have rcx and r11 clobbered for syscall so you can simply sysret back to it
00:54:50 <elliott> Hey, they invented Clue! >:)
00:54:59 <olsner> again, cooperative sucks
00:55:21 <elliott> olsner: see if you compile a language like I do, then you can automatically insert yield instructions in the compiled code in places that the compiler deems to be optimal
00:55:54 <olsner> well, basically you have to *guarantee* that all user processes call yield in a timely manner
00:55:55 <elliott> olsner: this allows the simplicity of a cooperative architecture with the responsiveness and reliability of a preemptive architecture, and with a Sufficiently Smart Compiler, even greater performance
00:56:03 <elliott> olsner: yes, and since all things in my OS go through the compiler
00:56:08 <elliott> it just has to insert yield instructions itself
00:56:19 <elliott> olsner: which your OS should be, since my OS is the best?
00:56:35 <Vorpal> <olsner> it irks me this full context switching thing though - there are a *lot* of registers to restore... cooperative multiprocessing would be nicer - not least because since you already have rcx and r11 clobbered for syscall so you can simply sysret back to it <-- hm doesn't x86 have an instruction to dump it all or restore it all?
00:56:58 <elliott> fizzie: "responsible engineer to migrate the entire infrastructure of a life insurance company to the state of the art"
00:57:04 <elliott> fizzie: Dear god, this guy is actually given serious tasks to do.
00:57:08 <olsner> for one, I still expect an assembly-level interface, and no trust from the OS on user processes - this means cooperative is pretty much out of the question from the start
00:57:13 <elliott> http://openfacts2.berlios.de/wikien/index.php/User:Aotto1968#1_mar_2008
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00:57:42 <elliott> olsner: my OS gives no trust at all to "processes" (no such concept in mine), but yeah, no asm-level interface without the user demanding that e be allowed to run some arbitrary code :)
00:58:02 <Vorpal> olsner, will this be an RTOS?
00:58:06 <olsner> Vorpal: there is (waspushad
00:58:29 <olsner> *(was) pushad, but it doesn't restore ip and doesn't support 64-bit registers
00:58:41 <elliott> olsner: have I mentioned: @ is the greatest?
00:58:52 <olsner> elliott: repeatedly, probably
00:58:53 <Vorpal> olsner, wasn't there some task dump?
00:59:00 <elliott> olsner: Insufficiently? I am going to mention it?
00:59:39 <olsner> Vorpal: that is to say, hardware task-switching is generally recognized as suckage and is dropped in amd64
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01:00:10 <fizzie> elliott: Well, he does (to some extent) seem less overtly crazy than, say, Mentifex; and there are some reasonable (from a first glance, anyway) low-level twiddlery there, though of course nothing that'd have anything to do with AI.
01:00:43 <elliott> olsner: OS task-switching is generally recognised as suckage and is dropped in @</troll>
01:01:09 <olsner> elliott trolling. surprising in oh so many ways.
01:01:19 <elliott> olsner: i have a knife and your address
01:01:35 <olsner> elliott: wtf, who gave you a knife? and my address?
01:01:42 <Vorpal> olsner, I still thought there was some dump-registers thingy
01:01:43 <elliott> olsner: that's what I want to know!
01:01:57 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/68400/ <-- greatest troll ever
01:02:11 <olsner> elliott: also, do come visit and chop some vegetables with your knife, we could cook and have fun all night
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01:02:41 <elliott> olsner: pervert, I'm going to call the police
01:03:05 <olsner> elliott: "a'ight" as they say "in da hood"
01:03:23 <elliott> olsner: I have trouble believing that you have any relation to or know anything about "da hood"
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01:04:14 <olsner> elliott: I have trouble believing in God, yet he's real
01:04:50 <olsner> not sure, as previously mentioned I have trouble believing
01:05:07 <elliott> olsner: are you _trying_ to confuse me? :D
01:05:42 <elliott> fizzie: yay mentifex http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2010/09/sep09mfpj.html
01:06:03 <olsner> elliott: vegetables, "fun all night"
01:06:14 <elliott> olsner: saved for future blackmail
01:06:25 <elliott> fizzie: CARS WHAT ARE CARS / GUNS WHAT ARE GUNS / TOOLS WHAT ARE TOOLS
01:08:51 <fizzie> Also obvious sentience.
01:09:50 <fizzie> THE GUNS MAKE THE CARS
01:10:14 <elliott> fizzie: It's referring to the military-industrial complex, dude.
01:14:48 <elliott> j-invariant: give haskell a better type system please
01:16:15 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm not about to start writing programs in coq
01:16:26 <elliott> "There's a feature called "reification" (which the classically-educated will recognise as the Latin for "thingification"), which provides a reflection mechanism."
01:16:31 <elliott> j-invariant: oh yeah, epigram 2 programs
01:17:07 <elliott> j-invariant: well got another suggestion? :P
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01:18:36 <j-invariant> elliott: There is currently no programming language suitable for actually programming in
01:18:52 <elliott> j-invariant: i don't think that's true ... you can mostly sling it if you build your own little library of abstractions
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01:24:57 <lambdabot> Unsafe.Coerce unsafeCoerce :: a -> b
01:24:57 <lambdabot> Control.OldException throwDyn :: Typeable exception => exception -> b
01:24:57 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax bindQ :: Q a -> (a -> Q b) -> Q b
01:25:03 <elliott> j-invariant: for instance I think Template Haskell is useful :-)
01:31:53 <j-invariant> maybe I should just give on scheme and implement a new language in haskell
01:32:18 <Sgeo> Slate has macros, right?/
01:32:28 <Sgeo> [I think I'm putting Atomo down, for now]
01:32:41 <j-invariant> Sgeo: nobody is going to know what Slate is in 2 years
01:33:28 <pikhq> java: malloc.c:3684: __libc_malloc: Assertion `!victim || ((((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t)))))->size & 0x2) || ar_ptr == (((((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t)))))->size & 0x4) ? ((heap_info *)((unsigned long)(((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t))))) & ~((2 * (4 * 1024 * 1024 * sizeof(long)))-1)))->ar_ptr : &main_arena)' failed.
01:33:32 <Sgeo> I do prefer Atomo's lambda syntax
01:33:43 <Sgeo> I think it's the best I've ever seen
01:33:54 <elliott> lambda syntax, that's what matters in a language
01:34:13 <Sgeo> elliott, note that, despite that, I'm still leaning back towards Slate
01:34:25 <Sgeo> Also, lack of a lambda syntax can be.. ticky
01:34:27 <j-invariant> elliott: what should I call my caluculator thing?
01:34:35 <elliott> j-invariant: you mean your dependent CAS?
01:34:42 <Sgeo> Same with a crappy one (ahem ahem Python)
01:35:30 <elliott> j-invariant: justification: dependent -> http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=dependency
01:35:44 <elliott> j-invariant: also you could say it was like a colony of mathematical definitions??? i dunno :D
01:35:53 <elliott> i like short, simple names, they don't have to mean much imo
01:36:03 <elliott> pikhq: note that hotspot is -client only, -server is another VM
01:36:18 <elliott> j-invariant: "In computer science, coupling or dependency ..." maybe some pun on coupling
01:36:21 <pikhq> It's claiming to be HotSpot server.
01:36:29 <elliott> j-invariant: Relate, coupling -- relationship, and it like, finds mathematical relations?
01:36:38 <elliott> j-invariant: so Colony or Relate :P
01:38:46 <pikhq> NOW IT KEEPS CRASHING.
01:38:51 <pikhq> IT MUST HATE MY MINE
01:38:54 <j-invariant> elliott: simple example: data T = Z | Q, obviously you just defiena function carrier Z = Integer ; carrier Q = Rational and everything is easy
01:39:22 <elliott> j-invariant: that's rather limited since you can't extent T
01:39:23 <j-invariant> elliott: (N.B. I can't do the usual data T x where Z :: T Integer ... because of other stuff)
01:39:33 <elliott> j-invariant: or wait, is this haskell?
01:39:45 <elliott> j-invariant: so how are you approaching this, are you implementing a dependent lang and doing it in that or?
01:39:47 <j-invariant> this is an explanation of why haskell is stupid
01:40:36 <j-invariant> (N.B. I am well aware that it's /me/ that's stupid, because I can't find any way to program this very simple)
01:40:55 <j-invariant> maybe I'll just have if x /= y then error "IMPOSSIBLE" else ... everywhere
01:40:56 <Sgeo> Has anyone yet made an easily reprogrammable music playing system in MC?
01:41:44 <elliott> j-invariant: try template haskell :D
01:41:46 <elliott> j-invariant: alternatively
01:41:58 <elliott> j-invariant: one way to do more "complex" types that doesn't give compile-time errors but stops you having conditions everywhere
01:42:07 <elliott> module Foo (DataType, mkDataType) where
01:42:15 <elliott> data DataType = Constructor ...
01:42:24 <elliott> mkDataType ... | ok = Constructor ...
01:42:29 <elliott> | otherwise = error "nooooo"
01:42:35 <elliott> module Nat (Nat, mkNat) where
01:42:53 <elliott> | otherwise = error "Nat.mkNat: negative natural"
01:43:01 <elliott> then nothing can access the constructor
01:43:08 <elliott> the relevant deriving instances
01:43:12 <elliott> so you can to toInteger and the like
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01:48:21 <j-invariant> So I think I can actually make a valid claim that "haskells type system is too limiting"
01:48:43 <j-invariant> (normally when people say that they are wrong)
01:49:05 <j-invariant> You can't embed a more expressive type system into it
01:49:57 <j-invariant> so e.g. if you are implementing a language with a more expressive type system, your typechecking (written in haskell) cannot give you a well typed & total evaluator
01:50:07 <j-invariant> (In fact haskell can not even express its own type system)
01:50:11 <elliott> j-invariant: the thing is that more expressive type systems have their own problems
01:50:35 <elliott> j-invariant: try and type infer Coq programs
01:50:53 <elliott> j-invariant: also you get very close very quickly to "oops, my language must be sub-TC for this to work"
01:51:00 <elliott> and also "oops, I need proofs everywhere to take advantage of this"
01:51:08 <elliott> and also "oops, everything is really fucking slow to typecheck now"
01:51:13 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:51:18 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH type ExpQ = Q Exp
01:51:18 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Lib type ExpQ = Q Exp
01:51:18 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Quote dataToExpQ :: Data a => (b -> Maybe (Q Exp)) -> a -> Q Exp
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01:52:08 <elliott> j-invariant: here's a little something i am working on for haskell
01:52:29 <elliott> {-# LANGUAGE TemplateHaskell #-}
01:52:29 <elliott> validatedType "Nat" "Integer" [| \i -> i >= 0 |]
01:52:44 <elliott> newtype Nat = MkNat Integer
01:53:29 <elliott> j-invariant: obviously I really want it to be like maybeMkNat returning Maybe Nat and then have functions on top of that etc
01:54:45 <elliott> j-invariant: obviously this is runtime-only
01:54:47 <elliott> but i think it's quite cool
01:55:53 <j-invariant> elliott: you could implement this without TH?
01:56:14 <elliott> j-invariant: well sure you could write out all the functions yourself ... but that's a huge pain
01:56:28 <elliott> the point is that this defines things like mkMaybeNat, isValidNat, etc.
02:00:34 <j-invariant> elliott: not trying to be mean but I don't find that very useful
02:00:45 <j-invariant> elliott: I mean just type out the names by hand :P
02:01:29 <elliott> newtype Nat = MkNat Integer deriving (Eq, Show)
02:01:36 <elliott> mkMaybeNat :: Integer -> Maybe Nat
02:02:02 <elliott> mkNat = fromJust . mkMaybeNat
02:02:11 <elliott> validatedType "Nat" "Integer" [| \i -> i >= 0 |]
02:02:49 <j-invariant> elliott: well maybe that is useful but it's not exactly a pearl
02:03:05 <elliott> j-invariant: i mentioned it because it was relevant to what you were saying
02:03:10 <elliott> j-invariant: wrt continually making checks for validity
02:04:28 <elliott> j-invariant: you didn't state your problem very clearly in #haskell :)
02:04:34 <elliott> j-invariant: also, the point is that instead of checking values are valid all the time
02:04:37 <elliott> you can just build this "gate"
02:04:48 <elliott> and since all Nats have to come from mkNat, since you don't export MkNat,
02:04:56 <elliott> you can be sure that every Nat obeys the condition you ste
02:05:09 <elliott> which is type safety, of a sort: all your internal code can assume and work upon these invariants on the type
02:05:16 <elliott> it's just that it's actually implemented at runtime
02:05:22 <elliott> but it should simplify your code a lot
02:07:13 <j-invariant> elliott: also someone mentioned "Turing complete" which was annoying
02:07:57 <j-invariant> lol don't acll him on it, that will just make things worse
02:08:10 <j-invariant> he just hadn't seen what I was trying to explain
02:08:33 <elliott> i like calling people on things
02:08:40 <elliott> j-invariant: but i'll answer your question
02:08:53 <elliott> j-invariant: stop trying to make everything perfectly type-safe, this isn't how haskell is meant to be done
02:08:59 -!- impomatic has left (?).
02:09:04 <elliott> verify that types are essentially write, but handle actual errors as runtime errors, for instance via Maybe
02:09:21 <elliott> Haskell isn't meant to let you solve all bugs with the type system, that's a design decision, probably a conscious one
02:09:26 <elliott> So don't try and make it do that for you
02:10:49 <j-invariant> I can actually make this work IF there is no type level computation
02:11:00 <j-invariant> (on the other hand, I like type level computation..)
02:11:04 <elliott> j-invariant: try and forget dependent types exist entirely
02:11:08 <elliott> j-invariant: write your program
02:11:15 <elliott> j-invariant: and /then/ see what you can do to it
02:11:42 <elliott> j-invariant: do it in haskell
02:11:49 <j-invariant> Didn't work out, someone mentiond "use objects" and I gave up
02:12:00 <elliott> j-invariant: if you want an abstract syntax tree, make "data MyAST = ..."
02:12:04 <elliott> j-invariant: if you want an integer, use Integer
02:12:10 <elliott> j-invariant: avoid type parameters except for generic structures like lists and the like
02:12:20 <elliott> j-invariant: I dare you, try and write your polynomial code like that
02:12:26 <elliott> j-invariant: this may not be the nicest way to use it
02:12:33 <elliott> it's the only way you're gonna be able to code it
02:12:35 <elliott> j-invariant: nope, not allowed
02:12:40 <elliott> j-invariant: remove some type parameters until you don't have to any more
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02:32:43 <elliott> i need to figure out what program to write!
02:34:19 <augur> im writing one as we speak!
02:41:24 <elliott> Couldn't match expected type `Change t a'
02:41:25 <elliott> against inferred type `Change t1 a1'
02:41:29 <elliott> j-invariant: if i get this error it means i'm winning right?
02:41:31 <j-invariant> 02:42 < Polytope> {x | P} means that x is in the set if and only if P is true.
02:41:31 <j-invariant> 02:43 < j-invariant> no set theory allows definitions like that
02:41:37 <elliott> NB: `Change' is a type function, and may not be injective
02:41:46 <elliott> j-invariant: more, i want more quotes, pastebin! :P
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02:42:05 <j-invariant> 02:26 < j-invariant> Axmann: { X subset of Y | P(X) } defines a set
02:42:05 <j-invariant> 02:26 < j-invariant> Axmann: { X | P(X) } does not
02:43:29 <elliott> Type declaration in a class must be a kind signature or synonym default
02:43:57 <elliott> j-invariant: is this the polytope of http://www.bash.org/?4916
02:44:24 <elliott> j-invariant: i doubt it, he mentioned first-year, so first-year uni student?
02:44:38 <elliott> so he'd have to have said that when he was like
02:44:45 <j-invariant> elliott: they are doing { x | P(x) } rather than { x in X | P(x) }
02:45:00 <elliott> j-invariant: P(x) = x in X /\ Q(x)
02:45:41 <elliott> P(x) = not P(x), problem Aristotle?
02:46:00 <elliott> j-invariant: isn't #math basically a cesspool anyway
02:46:07 <elliott> wow holy shit look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
02:46:09 <j-invariant> elliott: yeah seems that way, it's frustrating
02:46:14 <elliott> lol at the mirroring in the box
02:46:22 <elliott> oh my god look at the featured section what have they done
02:46:29 <elliott> Jimmy Wales is the co-founder of the online encyclopedia Wikipedia, along with Larry Sanger and others. Wikipedia succeeded an earlier attempt at an encyclopedia called Nupedia, but Nupedia grew slowly because of its onerous submission format, which required articles to be peer reviewed. Sanger was then introduced to the concept of a wiki, and thus Wikipedia was born. Wales continues to serve the Board of Trustees of the non-profit Wikimedia Foun
02:46:29 <elliott> dation, and he also co-founded Wikia, a for-profit wiki hosting site.
02:46:48 <j-invariant> todays featured picture http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Jimmy_Wales_Fundraiser_Appeal_edit.jpg
02:47:01 <elliott> * Cannot join #not-not-math (Channel is invite only).
02:47:14 <elliott> it should redirect to #math
02:49:10 <elliott> Couldn't match expected type `Change t2 a2'
02:49:10 <elliott> against inferred type `FileChange'
02:49:10 <elliott> NB: `Change' is a type function, and may not be injective
02:49:15 <elliott> steadily heading towards failure
02:49:36 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm going to troll them
02:49:54 <pikhq> Minecraft crashed. I lost the crate I put my stuff in.
02:50:21 <elliott> j-invariant: that just submits to apple
02:50:24 <Vorpal> j-invariant, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjsWHtkd7Yk
02:50:38 <elliott> pikhq: internalise this phrase: Notch quality engineering.
02:50:46 <elliott> pikhq: Notch, you see, is possibly the worst programer of our time.
02:51:04 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Minecraft crashed. I lost the crate I put my stuff in. <-- since when did you start playing minecraft? :D
02:51:18 <elliott> pikhq: He got a good idea, somehow managed to develop it to near its current state (recent improvements have been by Jeb, who is competent), and then went into an ETERNAL LOOP OF FAIL.
02:51:23 <elliott> pikhq: For instance. A quote.
02:51:37 <elliott> pikhq: [[Oh, and I’ve finally committed the Music Blocks to the repository.
02:51:37 <elliott> (Oh, wait, no, I didn’t.. Doing so broke git, so we’re changing to svn because git is horrible and evil)]]
02:51:57 <elliott> pikhq: When Beta first came out, in multiplayer, when you died, items would *duplicate*.
02:52:03 <elliott> You would get two of everything you own lying around.
02:52:11 <elliott> But only half of them could be picked up.
02:52:11 <Vorpal> j-invariant, see that link!
02:52:21 <elliott> pikhq: Additionally, leaf decay meant that single-player games ran at about 5 fps.
02:52:35 <elliott> pikhq: We are almost entirely certain that Notch does not even try and run the game before pushing updates.
02:53:52 <pikhq> All I lost was wood and cobblestone.
02:54:02 <Vorpal> j-invariant, indeed. There was harry potter theme on youtube too. Played manually
02:54:11 <Vorpal> j-invariant, by walking sideways and hitting timed blocks
02:54:22 <pikhq> 've been hollowing out a mountain.
02:54:40 <pikhq> And mining the hell out of it.
02:54:52 <pikhq> I'm playing on peaceful, though.
02:55:19 <Vorpal> j-invariant, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f1ofoKylN4
02:55:19 <elliott> pikhq: real men play on hard
02:55:23 <j-invariant> there was a skeleton that killed me IN BROAD DAYLIGHT
02:55:32 <elliott> j-invariant: it just didn't want to burn
02:55:37 <elliott> j-invariant: if trees shelter them
02:55:42 <Vorpal> j-invariant, rather expertly played I have to say considering the limits of minecraft. I played that melody on piano
02:56:50 <elliott> aaaaargh fuckyoufuckyoufuckyoufuckyou FUCK GHC
02:56:53 <Vorpal> j-invariant, yes I have even downloaded and played with it locally
02:57:02 <elliott> YOU ARE NOT DOING THINGS I WANT YOU TO DO, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THESE THINGS ARE UNREASONABLE
02:57:08 <elliott> I DISLIKE THIS FACET OF YOU
02:57:50 <j-invariant> Vorpal: oh really! I tried that.. didn't work for me
02:58:15 <j-invariant> Vorpal: I thnink the savegame format has been changed recently
02:58:21 <Vorpal> j-invariant, no it hasn't
02:58:27 <Vorpal> j-invariant, it likely will though
02:58:29 <elliott> it changed a looong time ago
02:58:32 <Vorpal> j-invariant, did you unpack the zip?
02:58:57 <j-invariant> Vorpal: I'm being precise because the mistake is probably a very small detail
02:59:13 <Vorpal> j-invariant, oh right. unrar?
02:59:25 <Vorpal> j-invariant, you need to tell it to unpack with folder structure preserved
02:59:30 <Vorpal> j-invariant, rather than unpack flat
02:59:41 <Vorpal> check docs. iirc it is x instead of e
02:59:44 <Vorpal> or something like that
03:01:59 <Vorpal> j-invariant, if you ever played zelda oot you will find this awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRUSF3IlFqY
03:02:41 <j-invariant> Vorpal: one question.. how do you find all these videos so quickly?
03:02:52 <Vorpal> j-invariant, by searching youtube!
03:03:07 <elliott> you will notice it taking up 90% of your reddit time soon
03:03:21 <Vorpal> j-invariant, can you tell him not for all cases
03:03:36 <elliott> Meanwhile, nine year old girls play Minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/KPI02.jpg
03:03:51 <elliott> I like how the idea of a minecart floating in the void was scrapped.
03:04:05 <j-invariant> 03:03 < Axmann> so if {x | x is an integer above zero}, then |8|?
03:07:46 <Vorpal> j-invariant, happy to be of service
03:08:00 <pikhq> # C [r600_dri.so+0x55d0c] radeonEmitVec4+0x4c
03:08:10 <pikhq> It's hitting a bug in my driver.
03:08:51 <elliott> j-invariant: what, they're actually listening to me ...
03:09:03 <elliott> j-invariant: assure me that #math is never worthwhile, because I'm on the road to a ban
03:09:41 <j-invariant> 02:45 < j-invariant> I thought this was #math, not #interpretive-dance
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03:12:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, should have gotten yourself nvidia or intel :P
03:12:43 <Vorpal> j-invariant, 04:15: I agree
03:12:46 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm not going to bed so you shouldn't either, that's like
03:12:48 <elliott> a fundamental law of nature
03:12:59 <j-invariant> elliott: Some people have to get up in the morning
03:13:19 <elliott> j-invariant: what a strange concept
03:13:40 <elliott> j-invariant: anyone who has to get up in the morning on saturday probably has a terrible life i figure, so being sleep-deprived shouldn't make things significantly worse
03:14:39 <elliott> pikhq: I suggest switching to another driver, Minecraft takes precedence over all
03:14:50 <elliott> pikhq: I would redesign @ to be able to support a JVM if it couldn't, just so it could run Minecraft
03:17:53 * pikhq just won Minecraft.
03:18:13 <pikhq> Build a tiny room from wood planks. VICTORY SHALL BE YOURS.
03:19:36 <pikhq> Mobs can't get you. Voila, you are immortal.
03:19:54 <augur> since when do you come here
03:20:28 <copumpkin> but to do so I must first learn your habits
03:20:38 <elliott> pikhq: um i just mentioned how to win
03:20:45 <augur> elliott can explain my habits to you
03:20:50 <elliott> pikhq: you can do it with only taking two blocks
03:21:05 <elliott> pikhq: in fact, you can win in seconds
03:21:06 <elliott> pikhq: let me tell you how
03:21:14 <elliott> pikhq: take two blocks vertically from the ground
03:21:22 <elliott> pikhq: place them in front of you facing outside
03:21:25 <elliott> congratulations, you win Minecraft!
03:21:34 <copumpkin> what are the criteria for winning?
03:21:42 <elliott> copumpkin: being safe forever, obviously
03:21:49 <elliott> copumpkin: if there's nothing more to fight, obviously you win the game
03:21:57 <elliott> after you do the final boss, that's it, no more game, you win
03:22:05 <elliott> in this case, the final boss is two dirt blocks
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03:24:24 <elliott> pikhq: still playing peaceful like a wimp?
03:24:46 <pikhq> elliott: I won on hard!
03:24:55 <elliott> pikhq: Hard isn't actually very hard vs. normal
03:25:06 <elliott> pikhq: Really, if you have a house, you're fine; and you can even go around at night with a sword and armour.
03:25:19 <Sgeo> elliott, even a wooden sword?
03:25:20 <elliott> Just makes mining more interesting :P
03:25:27 <Sgeo> And wooden armor?
03:25:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Sure, but why would you make wooden anything?
03:25:31 <pikhq> elliott: BUT I MUST REMOVE ALL THE STONE FROM INSIDE THIS MOUNTAIN
03:25:32 <elliott> There is no wooden armour.
03:25:36 <elliott> pikhq: You can do that on hard.
03:25:48 <Sgeo> elliott, because you haven't started mining yet
03:25:50 <copumpkin> pikhq: to make the hall of the mountain king
03:25:59 <elliott> Sgeo: You make one pickaxe, take three stone, and you have a stone pickaxe.
03:26:04 <elliott> Congratulations, you never need to use wood tools ever again.
03:26:31 <Sgeo> elliott, unless you're careless and run out of stone pickaxe usage and stones
03:26:38 <pikhq> ... *Run out of stones*?
03:26:47 <elliott> A stone pickaxe lasts for enough time to mine hundreds and hundreds of cobbles.
03:27:04 <elliott> If you ever go "oops, out of cobbles, have to make a wood pickaxe", congratulations -- you are the first person to actually *lose* Minecraft.
03:27:54 <copumpkin> comex: so are you a minecraft-head too or are you just here for the esoteric languages nobody ever speaks about?
03:28:30 <Sgeo> Anyone want to shoot comex with an alarm clock?
03:28:41 <elliott> copumpkin: he's just in here because of ircnomic
03:29:01 <elliott> i don't actually know if comex does esolangs, but he never really talks, so, we just kinda accept him
03:29:07 <Sgeo> elliott, surely you mean Canada
03:29:25 <copumpkin> elliott: he used to use an uncommon language, at least
03:29:26 <pikhq> He's a pretty cool guy though. He doesn't afraid of anything!
03:30:01 <elliott> That terrible-looking thing.
03:30:24 <elliott> copumpkin: All comex's code that I've seen has been Python at least
03:30:55 <copumpkin> he's occasionally shown a tiny bit of interest in haskell
03:31:18 * copumpkin wonders if talking about comex for long enough will un-afk him
03:31:46 <elliott> yeah i think he's written...one haskell program?
03:33:11 <copumpkin> I want to get to the airport tomorrow morning
03:33:27 <copumpkin> and the bus to get to the airport starts up at 5:50
03:33:27 <pikhq> copumpkin: Yeeaaah, good luck with that.
03:33:34 <elliott> a person who needs to be up on Saturday
03:33:39 <elliott> j-invariant: ha ha, let's laugh at him
03:33:50 <copumpkin> elliott: hey, I get to go to warm places, at least :)
03:33:54 <Sgeo> I'm planning on waking up early on Saturday
03:34:03 <Sgeo> Assuming she contacts me tonight
03:34:06 <j-invariant> it sucks how everyone who asks a programming question seems to get an answer, except nobody knows how to solve my thing
03:34:06 <elliott> copumpkin: i want to live in iceland, i can't really relate
03:34:15 <elliott> j-invariant: your question is wrong :D
03:34:21 <pikhq> copumpkin: Boston's public transport is positively nice for "sane" hours. If you happen to need to be along the right routes.
03:34:37 <pikhq> copumpkin: 6:50 AM on Saturday? Weep!
03:34:38 <copumpkin> pikhq: yeah, except I live and work on the green line
03:34:42 <Sgeo> What's j-invariant's question?
03:34:52 <copumpkin> elliott: a colleague of mine is from iceland!
03:34:57 <copumpkin> and I'm listening to icelandic music right now
03:35:01 <elliott> copumpkin: wait wait wait let me guess their name
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03:35:42 <elliott> copumpkin: er are you sure, isn't that how icelandic names are formed :P
03:36:26 <copumpkin> I just ate 3 (THREE) weetabix. Should I eat more?
03:36:42 <elliott> copumpkin: it's [Firstname] [Parentfirstname][son|dóttir]
03:36:48 <elliott> what's their name, I'd be very surprised if it didn't fit that?
03:37:21 <elliott> copumpkin: then "X Yson" is correct, as i said
03:37:34 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name
03:37:44 <copumpkin> oh, I didn't realize your uppercase was a free variable
03:38:09 <elliott> hi, my name is ecks whyson
03:38:31 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like trying to guess if the sun's going to come up tomorrow.
03:39:06 <pikhq> elliott: Guessing that -son or -dóttir is the suffix for a Icelandic name.
03:39:13 <elliott> copumpkin: congratulations, you know the mayor of reykjavik
03:40:35 <elliott> (everything should be combined with maple syrup)
03:40:35 <pikhq> copumpkin will ate 40 weetabix. That's as many as four tens! And that's terrible.
03:40:39 <copumpkin> I haven't had them with maple syrup
03:41:00 <elliott> bacon with melted chocolate dripped in maple syrup is probably close to being liquid happiness-inflictor
03:41:14 <elliott> well apart from not being liquid
03:41:19 <pikhq> elliott: Surprisingly, bacon and chocolate do in fact go together very well.
03:41:25 <elliott> pikhq: i have this bacon chocolate here
03:41:33 <copumpkin> you know what also goes with bacon?
03:41:35 <pikhq> Unless you're Jewish. In which case you're fucked.
03:41:42 <elliott> no, you're wrong, the answer is more bacon
03:41:57 <elliott> copumpkin: vinegar + maple syrup!!!
03:42:23 <comex> elliott: does the Type 1 font program language count as esoteric?
03:42:27 <comex> I need it for this exploit.
03:42:44 <comex> it's a pretty good example of a turing tarpit
03:42:47 <elliott> comex: I totally won't tell anyone what it is if you say it in this publicly-logged channel.
03:43:01 <elliott> copumpkin won't tweet it either
03:43:22 <elliott> because it's secret! you can tweet it in a few minutes.
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03:43:59 <comex> I'm not even kidding, though; it feels like writing in an esolang.
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03:44:13 <elliott> comex: EXCUSE ME SORRY TELL US WHAT THE EXPLOIT IS OR GET BANNED
03:44:22 <elliott> famous people are allowed in here only if they give us inside scoops
03:44:53 <Sgeo> I don't think Notch would be allowed here even if he gave us both
03:45:16 <elliott> Maybe if he gave us a LOT of money.
03:45:44 <elliott> copumpkin: because he can't fucking code
03:45:53 <elliott> and he has the piece of shit autoupdate to more broken versions constantly without warning
03:46:06 <elliott> and he said git is horrible and evil and switched to svn because he fucked something up
03:46:10 <elliott> and and and he "frowns upon" modders and
03:46:14 <elliott> he is the most hateful person
03:46:32 <copumpkin> and in my land, that means he's good
03:46:38 <elliott> and he can't even fucking hire developers to code minecraft properly
03:46:47 <elliott> he hired devs ... to code on his supersekrit new project
03:46:55 <elliott> rather than, you know, the game people actually fucking play
03:47:24 <Sgeo> Didn''t a non-Notch person work on the new update?
03:47:26 <copumpkin> in my land, that just means he's going to try to get richer
03:47:35 <elliott> copumpkin: your land is strange
03:47:40 <elliott> Sgeo: the only non-Notch coder working on MC
03:47:43 <elliott> and also seemingly competent
03:48:07 <elliott> he basically did the whole new update
03:48:12 <Sgeo> Would I be an improvement or a ... opposite
03:48:12 <copumpkin> success = good and money = success
03:48:15 <elliott> more evidence that notch is a oajgoidfjg
03:48:18 <copumpkin> if you are poor, you are a bad person
03:48:20 <elliott> Sgeo: um i don't even want to think about that
03:48:39 <elliott> copumpkin: i'm just going to assume you're joking even though this is the internet
03:49:03 <copumpkin> I'm going to assume that you assume that because you're poor
03:49:09 <copumpkin> cause good people wouldn't assume that
03:49:26 <Sgeo> I'm not even going to bother making the obvious Star Trek comparision
03:49:47 <elliott> no star trek comparison is ever obvious
03:50:01 <copumpkin> now that I have consumed more weetabix
03:50:02 <Sgeo> elliott: what.
03:50:32 <copumpkin> should I sleep a bit and then wake up to go to the airport
03:50:42 <copumpkin> or just stay up as late as I normally do, and not sleep at all
03:50:52 * Sgeo decides that he's the wrong person to answer the question
03:50:58 <comex> Minecraft is a Java applet
03:50:58 <copumpkin> but then I'll want to sleep tomorrow
03:51:01 <elliott> copumpkin: you can eat more weetabix
03:51:03 <comex> you don't need to say anything else
03:51:05 <copumpkin> and I only have a couple of days out there
03:51:11 <elliott> but nobody uses the applet...
03:51:14 <elliott> you can't mod it or anything
03:51:16 <copumpkin> so it seems like a waste to fly away and sleep there
03:51:23 <elliott> why would anyone even use the applet
03:51:33 <elliott> copumpkin: sleep on the plane
03:51:55 <comex> my statement is still valid
03:52:00 <elliott> comex: Minecraft is A java?!?!?!
03:52:05 <Sgeo> You don't have to make random transfers on the plai1
03:52:07 <elliott> copumpkin: don't sleep ever
03:52:23 <elliott> copumpkin: more fucking weetabix
03:52:37 <Sgeo> me finds this hilarious
03:53:12 <Sgeo> elliott `>> [ clone. ]
03:53:13 <elliott> copumpkin: EAT SOME FUCKING WEETABIX FUCKFACE
03:53:36 <Sgeo> Why would I ever, ever do that
03:53:43 <Sgeo> Give elliott even 1 clone-child
03:53:56 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX FUCKING WEETABIX.
03:54:02 <Sgeo> ....that sounded far, far wronger than I meant
03:54:07 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX, FUCKING WEETABIX.
03:54:17 <elliott> copumpkin: WEETABIX OR BUST
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03:56:11 <elliott> copumpkin: WEETABIX OR WEETABIX
03:56:14 <cheater00> i never understood why people ate that
03:56:55 <cheater00> i could never get it, maybe i'm using them wrong
03:57:00 <elliott> serve it with more weetabix
03:57:15 <cheater00> i just put them in the milk and it gets soggy and crappy and boring
03:58:30 <elliott> Graph.graphFromEdges . Set.toList . Set.map (\c -> (c, c, deps c)) $ cs
03:58:30 <elliott> in reverse . map (\v -> case v2n v of (c,_,_) -> c) . Graph.topSort $ g
03:58:36 <elliott> right now it relies on changes themselves being Ord
03:58:40 <elliott> since they're used as the key
03:59:13 <Sgeo> It's sad that the only language or platform that has solved the module issue to my satisfaction thus far is JAVA
03:59:17 <copumpkin> I'm going to make them suck less in haskell someday
03:59:29 <elliott> if java has solved your module issue
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03:59:50 <elliott> copumpkin: i don't really mind the api, i just want you to fix the function :(
04:00:05 <elliott> maybe i'll abstract a way a change-ref (i.e. object id) and use that as the key.
04:00:13 <Sgeo> Java has no conflicting packages whose names are the same
04:00:21 <Sgeo> Or at least, if people weren't idiots, it wouldn't
04:00:31 <zzo38> Why can I not make a warning about converting a integer to a pointer without a cast, into error, without making other warnings also errors?
04:00:56 <elliott> Sgeo: the only solution to your problem is having the cryptographic hash of the API be the hash's name (tuomov has proposed this solution)
04:03:09 <zzo38> Can you just use #line if you want the compiler to emit an error message for compile-time-assertions?
04:03:21 <zzo38> (Such as arrays that conditionally have negative size)
04:03:31 <zzo38> (I have tried this, and it works)
04:04:14 <zzo38> The command in the new C specification that says you can make compile-time-assertions is unnecessary, I think.
04:05:01 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcvyaGhc1mg
04:05:32 <Sgeo> elliott, there's another solution, that I think Newspeak is heading in
04:05:49 <Sgeo> Have names not need to be unique within a system.
04:06:19 <elliott> Sgeo: that doesn't really solve any problem unless you're more specific.
04:06:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: What are you trying to make?
04:07:03 <Sgeo> Suppose you have two packages named Foobar. No packakages that use either Foobar have the name Foobar forcefully encoded in
04:07:07 <Sgeo> Just as documentation
04:07:23 <Sgeo> The user might call one copy of Foobar Foobar_to_do_this and the other Foobar_to_do_that
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04:07:36 <Sgeo> Hook each up to wherever it needs to go in the IDE
04:07:37 <elliott> Sgeo: The problem is, of course, that every time you use a module at the top level, you have to give it EVERY FUCKING MODULE THERE IS.
04:08:38 <Sgeo> No, just the ones it needs. And if you don't have duplicate names in a system yet, the IDE does it automatically perhaps
04:08:57 <elliott> Sgeo: (1) That's what I meant. Consider something that needs 30 modules.
04:09:26 <elliott> Sgeo: (2) So basically, duplicate names are REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING to the point where you'd never want them anyway (and you're handwaving language issues by diverting them to some "IDE" that is well beyond the well-defined accepted scope of an IDE)
04:10:06 <zzo38> elliott: In what programming language? Java?
04:10:30 <Sgeo> Note: I am not on the Newspeak team. Just imagining where I think it would go
04:10:51 <zzo38> OK I found it on Wikipedia now.
04:11:22 <Sgeo> elliott, instead of saying "IDE", is a config file better?
04:11:34 <elliott> Name conflicts are still a horrific pain with that system.
04:11:46 <Sgeo> elliott, at least they can be dealt with
04:11:53 <elliott> For instance, a module can't use a module X, and also use another module that wants a different module called X.
04:12:20 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, it can?
04:12:24 <zzo38> (I avoid using Google whenever possible, so sometimes I search for things on Wikipedia instead.)
04:13:13 <Sgeo> Hook up other module's X to the X it wants, and main module's X to the X it wants
04:13:41 <elliott> I see, so you get a horrible tangle if two commonly-used modules use different modules named X.
04:13:48 <elliott> Not to mention that EVEN IF YOU CONFIGURE IT CORRECTLY,
04:13:57 <elliott> you're going to have a world of confusion as you try and talk about it:
04:14:04 <elliott> "So X1 does blah, and ..." "Which one is X1 again?"
04:14:08 <elliott> "The one that does X." "They both do X."
04:14:17 <zzo38> That is why they need to add a command to rename modules.
04:14:23 <elliott> "Uhh, the one that Poophead wrote." "Oh. Is that the one with the API that looks like turds or the API that looks like turdy turds?"
04:14:35 <elliott> "*looks at the code* No, that's the other one."
04:14:42 <zzo38> (Like the ALIAS command in Visual Basic, I guess.)
04:18:00 <Sgeo> elliott, so it's not perfect, it can still be better than the rest
04:18:16 <elliott> I don't remember the last time I actually saw a naming conflict.
04:18:27 <elliott> I have to wonder why you are obsessed with them.
04:19:02 <Sgeo> Because the idea of their existence horrifies me
04:19:15 <elliott> Are you sure you want to use that word.
04:19:19 <elliott> Does it not strike you as too strong
04:19:41 <Sgeo> Does the word hyperbole strike you as a bit too..
04:20:10 <elliott> Considering you've talked about some random pseudoscientific book as making you physically ill, I really don't think I can assume hyperbole any more.
04:23:33 <elliott> I wonder if the archive of tuomov's blog is complete.
04:23:52 <elliott> Perhaps I could ask tuomov for the missing posts if not.
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04:37:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Here is tuomov's post about APIs and modules. http://tuomov.bitcheese.net/b/archives/2007/07/16/T22_41_22
04:42:17 <elliott> Yeah, the archive is not complete it seems ...
04:43:48 <Sgeo> And not in the best of moods
04:45:13 <elliott> Oh man, scapegoat is gonna rock.
04:49:22 <elliott> http://bugs.darcs.net/issue64 <-- finally fucking resolved
04:49:45 <Sgeo> I don't care right now
04:50:09 <Sgeo> Darcs is anti-tf8?
04:50:12 <Sgeo> Oh, you said resulved
04:50:41 <elliott> Sgeo: You seem...disturbed.
04:50:50 <Sgeo> She's still not online
04:52:47 <elliott> Missing the bus and calling at the last limit ... (presumably) implying she'd be online and then not being so... Hmmmmmmmm.
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04:53:15 <Sgeo> She didn't know that it takes me so long to get to the mall
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04:56:43 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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05:34:02 <pikhq_> I need a new graphics card.
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05:34:49 <pikhq> With ATi, I've got a choice of: slightly unstable drivers, or slightly unstable drivers *that fucking glitch like crazy* (those being the "official" drivers).
05:39:03 <pikhq> Seriously, the official drivers suck balls.
05:40:53 <pikhq> quintopia: It needs to be said often.
05:41:28 <pikhq> Also, Flash is a monstrosity and Adobe should be murdered for it.
05:41:53 <pikhq> I don't care if it's impractical to murder an international megacorp, either!
05:44:11 <quintopia> well, bombing their headquarters doesn't seem so infeasible at least
05:45:52 <quintopia> < sean_> inglip would kick zalgo's ass
05:48:20 <Sgeo> quickly, bring pie
05:50:04 <Ilari> Hah... Another piece of drivel promoting fantasy "mediterrainian diet".
05:52:27 <Ilari> "extra virgin olive oil and canola oil in place of saturated and trans fats" ... Yeah, right... Maybe they use _some_ olive oil (cold-pressed)... But sure no rancid-at-the-shelves canola/rapeseed oil...
05:53:04 <Ilari> And then there's the French paradox...
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06:05:43 <Ilari> French Paradox: Why do French have so little heart disease even if their saturated fat consumption is so high?
06:07:43 <pikhq> Answer: correlation ≠ causation.
06:17:36 <Sgeo> I'm certain my away message is a quote from some Simpsons book, a guide to either Simpsons episodes or to Springfield
06:17:40 <Sgeo> But Google turns up nothing
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06:40:22 <pikhq> Star Wars trilogies are getting yet *another* modified rerelease. Though the prequels probably can't be made much *worse* by Lucas, I wonder how fucking awful he's going to be to the original trilogy this time.
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07:10:43 <Ilari> Lagerholm estimate is now below 7 days... The estimate for today will come in about 1.5 hours... But I doubt it is going to be more optimistic...
07:10:54 <Ilari> Current burnrate in used /8 per month: 1.84
07:16:32 <Ilari> HURRR... http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/fig25.png
07:16:47 <Ilari> Is that some sort of data processing error???
07:18:16 <Ilari> And for extra fun, APNIC seems to be handing out about half of the addresses...
07:26:54 <pikhq> Probably more pessimistic, if anything.
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08:42:04 <Ilari> Now the estimate is today (of course, being Saturday, it is not likely that anything happens before monday...
08:42:48 <Ilari> Last 5 days large allocations: 6.5Mi
08:45:46 <Ilari> Okay, these predictions are quite messed up...
08:49:49 <Ilari> The fastest case is APNIC having requested the blocks on Friday (and IANA has not yet processed the request...)
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14:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> YouTube comments will never cease to destroy my faith in humanity.
14:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEATei2wewY&feature=related
14:44:39 <Phantom_Hoover> First listen to the soundtrack. Then read the comments.
14:51:19 <Sgeo> I was wondering where I heard that song
14:59:48 <Ilari> Heh... I just remembered that my earlier estimate of IANA IPv4 depletion estimate was mid-January... Lagerholm estimate is now "any moment now"...
15:01:34 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it'll be all over reddit
15:09:26 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IaJ8bec8fg
15:09:29 <Sgeo> Is that a bug?
15:13:50 <Sgeo> On a different vid: "I don't know why this never occurred to me. What a great method. xD Once buckets are fixed in multiplayer, I'm going to use this on the obsidian tower I'm building."
15:13:58 <Sgeo> What's wrong with buckets in multiplayer?
15:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly how mathematical is the average CS curriculum?
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15:34:04 <fizzie> I don't know about average, but here it's: not very, unless you deliberately choose courses to make it so.
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16:03:29 * Sgeo is in a good mood
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16:11:06 <Sgeo> Although I did show her Cybertown a while ago
16:11:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, no. If that were the case, Sgeo would be far too busy being paralysed with joy.
16:11:10 <Sgeo> Just briefly though
16:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> EXTREMELY GOOD ADVICE: do NOT attempt to serenade her. Particularly not with "I see a red robe and I want to paint it black".
16:12:28 <Sgeo> I don't know if she was bored. I do know she was once bored when I was describing some computer thing. And it's not like we haven't done anything that bored me
16:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you are only allowed to liveblog in the event of impending trollpocalypse.
16:13:49 <Sgeo> Did I ever mention the time that I took a journal to school and wrote about what happened as, or shortly after, it happened?
16:16:29 <quintopia> that sounds like the most boring journal ever
16:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. being sent to a 5th-rate college because his dad is a total smeghead.
16:17:21 <Sgeo> But you'd think I was a pervert perhaps
16:17:29 <Sgeo> Also, this was in highschool
16:17:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, o god please tell me you weren't writing down your fantasies.
16:18:19 <quintopia> and please say they didn't involve urination
16:20:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, please tell me he wasn't writing down his urolagnic fantasies.
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16:20:40 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: this program is linked into the market-o-matic, thinking that i claim no special effort to keep solaris his sign of the
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16:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, please tell me he wasn't writing down his urolagnic fantasies.
16:21:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: claimed that the victim) subject:re: `which foo` error message
16:22:30 <Sgeo> "Today, 3/9/07, begins my Era of Documentation. A while ago, my Dad told me not to use LiveJournal as a private journal. I wish I disobeyed him sooner."
16:23:13 <oklopol> and here in turku it's even less mathematical than in helsinki
16:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Why is this computer unable to competently hold onto a wireless network.
16:23:52 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: why no wired connection
16:24:01 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, when I'm on Linux and at school, I have the same problem
16:24:17 <Gregor> Wow, Weetabix looks extremely gross :P
16:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, because I live in a hundred-year-old house and as such it was not designed with easy Ethernet cable access in mind.
16:24:37 <Gregor> "Here is a dense, solid block of cereal product. Digest it."
16:24:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: oh i know how that goes :/
16:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, wait, you actually disobeyed your father over something>
16:25:20 <oklopol> Gregor: no u look like a solid block
16:25:25 <Sgeo> Since 2007 or so, all the time
16:25:53 <Sgeo> Slightly before
16:25:59 <pikhq> Gregor: Holy crap, it's Industrial Food Product.
16:26:11 <Sgeo> I didn't say I disobey him on everything
16:26:13 <pikhq> Well. More so than the rest of an American diet.
16:26:29 <Sgeo> Just things like having my name on Facebook, talking to people about him, etc.
16:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> They thought "Farming" did not indicate how rustic they were.
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16:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> That alone should indicate that you ignore anyone who says it's a good place to study computers.
16:28:04 <oklopol> well computer science is a bit gay anyway
16:28:06 <pikhq> ... He goes to a college called *Farmingdale*?
16:28:13 <quintopia> it sounds like a knock-off social networking game
16:28:13 <Gregor> oklopol: Farming is not.
16:28:25 <Sgeo> pikhq, no, it's located in a place called Farmingdale
16:28:49 <oklopol> i'm not sure what that was an argument for, exactly
16:29:03 <Gregor> oklopol: And there's nothing more manly than a man in another man's embrace!
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16:29:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: My intelligence informs me that it's SUNY Farmingdale, or formerly, Long Island Agricultural and Technical Institute.
16:29:28 <quintopia> let's all give up computers, move to PA, stop shaving our beards, and farm!
16:29:57 <pikhq> oklopol: Computer science is gay? Okay, then. Where's a phallus...
16:30:13 <Sgeo> pikhq, well, it's... what I meant is that it's not called that because the college just decided "Hey, Farmingdale is an awesome name for a college", which is what I thought you meant.
16:30:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Dear God man, you'd have a more respectible education at Devry. And those people ride the short bus!
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16:31:05 * Sgeo gets offended at pikhq
16:31:37 <pikhq> Your dad offends my sensibilities!
16:31:40 <quintopia> he may be offensive...but he may be right...
16:31:56 <oklopol> respectable education is a bit gay anyway
16:32:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Except apparently Sgeo's.
16:32:16 <Gregor> pikhq: My dad tells me he regularly has this conversation at work: "My son got into {Devry,University of Phoenix,Other Boxtop University}." "That's nice, my son is a doctoral student at Purdue." "*fume*"
16:32:38 <Sgeo> "This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds."
16:32:48 <pikhq> Gregor: ... Who would be *proud* of being a student at one of those boxtop universities?
16:32:52 <quintopia> oklopol: you're slowly convincing me that I should go gay. keep it up and I'll soon be asking you to undress...
16:32:58 <pikhq> Gregor: My community college has stricter requirements.
16:33:22 <oklopol> quintopia: i'm always naked when i'm on irc
16:33:28 <pikhq> oklopol: Pencils are phallic, and we know what Freud has to say about phallic objects.
16:33:40 <Gregor> quintopia: But ... he's some scrawny little Finnish twink :P
16:34:27 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: one you get a scholarship to by mailing weetabix tops
16:35:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: One of a few for-profit colleges which exist *largely* for the purpose of soaking up federal financial aid from students.
16:35:09 <oklopol> well, i was recently told i'm "surprisingly fat" when i told them my weight, i'm not sure how to interpret that
16:35:26 * Gregor is trying to remember which boxtop university it is that's in the /mall/ in Portland.
16:35:44 <pikhq> You can get into them if you are capable of breathing, just about, and their degrees have similar value to a high school diploma.
16:36:00 <Gregor> Apollo College, that's right.
16:36:18 <Gregor> When you go to college in a mall, then you need to reconsider your life decisions :P
16:36:25 <Sgeo> pikhq, is there a way to confirm that my college isn't one of them?
16:36:42 <Sgeo> [It doesn't sound like one. I think]
16:36:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: SUNY isn't one of them, it's just a piss-poor choice for you.
16:36:54 <oklopol> Gregor: you don't have to move to find work after college, the mall and the uni have a deal
16:37:46 <Sgeo> Easy commute + not as competitive
16:38:02 <quintopia> oklopol: i do happen to be naked at the moment, and for some reason my bathwater won't get above lukewarm today :/
16:38:08 <oklopol> i wish we had even the slightest bit of competition here
16:38:21 <Sgeo> quintopia, you're on your computer in the bath?
16:38:40 <Sgeo> oklopol, my dad's convinced that I have difficulties getting homework done
16:38:55 <Sgeo> As much as I wish I could say I thought he was wrong...
16:38:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a bit like getting a CS degree from The Institute of Everything Un-Technical. Even if the institute is the best thing ever, *you're a fucking moron* for getting a CS degree there.
16:39:00 <quintopia> ("motorola milestone" in other parts of the world)
16:39:21 <oklopol> Sgeo: however, if you went to a competitive university, you might start doing homework, because it would have a point.
16:39:25 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> oklopol, my dad's convinced that I have difficulties getting homework done ← I have difficulties getting homework done. Getting homework done doesn't matter.
16:39:29 <oklopol> the point being the competition
16:40:07 <oklopol> well i suppose you might drop out if you sucked ass
16:40:57 <quintopia> sgeo: i recommend you transfer somewhere better at the earliest available opportunity
16:41:34 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: at uni, it matters for the first few years tho
16:41:52 <oklopol> after that, you'll have your own research to do anyway, so homework is just a sidejob
16:42:37 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: well no but i mean whereever you'll go
16:42:57 <oklopol> assuming Sgeo's university is as crappy as i hear
16:43:32 <quintopia> it's not the uni that's crappy, it's his program
16:44:38 <pikhq> ... Holy crap they don't even *offer* computer science.
16:44:49 <pikhq> They offer "computer programming & information systems".
16:45:09 <Sgeo> They had a CS program once
16:45:12 <oklopol> pikhq: that's also the case in turku :\ although partly because our math department has all the good cs
16:45:50 <pikhq> "Data structures" is an optional class and it's 300 level!
16:46:14 <pikhq> It requires business classes!
16:46:19 <Sgeo> I don't think Data Structures is optional
16:46:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm looking at the degree requirements. Only required in the "programming track".
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16:47:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW: data structures in most CS programs is a freshman course.
16:47:53 <Sgeo> ....what? Seriously?
16:48:13 <quintopia> yes you seriously need to transfer asap
16:49:00 <pikhq> And *holy God* the math requirements are light.
16:49:01 <Sgeo> Can I get a Bachlor's here, and then do stuff at a more interesting place?
16:49:10 <Sgeo> pikhq, there are math requirements?
16:49:18 <pikhq> Calc I and "Probability methods".
16:49:30 <oklopol> calc 1 is like some precalc shit or?
16:49:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Most places I've looked, a CS degree gets you a math minor for free.
16:49:42 <quintopia> sgeo: just transfer now and get a bachelor's elsewhere
16:49:46 <oklopol> "here's the rules you learned in high school PLUS 5 MORE!"
16:49:53 <pikhq> oklopol: It's the first of three courses on the calculus of integrals and derivatives.
16:50:08 <quintopia> pikhq: i got a dual major with just like two or so more classes
16:50:27 <pikhq> quintopia: Yeah, I'm getting a math degree for 3 extra credit hours.
16:50:39 <fizzie> At least around here you can't include the same course (credit-point-wise) in multiple "modules".
16:51:03 <pikhq> quintopia: But if I literally *didn't try*, I would have a math minor.
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16:51:07 <fizzie> So getting a second minor is automatical +20 or +30 credits or however much it was.
16:51:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:51:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Here it's entirely accepted practice.
16:51:34 <quintopia> they only require that you take X extra hours that aren't for the primary major
16:51:35 <fizzie> Anyway, it's a bit problematical in fact when you're taking two minors (or a major and minor) that have a lot of overlapping classes, since you then need to invent credit points for the second.
16:51:46 <quintopia> electives are completely double-dippable
16:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> oklopol: It's the first of three courses on the calculus of integrals and derivatives. ← so you do polynomials and that's it?
16:52:04 <Sgeo> So, there's no way I could just get a Bachelor's here, and ..whatever the next thing is at Stony Brook?
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16:52:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, you do 2 dimensional integrals and derivatives. And that's about it.
16:52:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: You would have serious trouble going into grad school with that.
16:52:44 <oklopol> fizzie: it's kinda weird there's actually no way to get a major from both math and cs, since there are just not enough courses
16:52:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, on functions of single arguments?
16:53:06 <oklopol> i mean, if you've done the stuff required for the degree, why can't you have it...
16:53:22 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, what, so you mean you only work with f(x) rather than f(x,y)?
16:53:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah.
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16:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, erm, here in Scotland you never even touch on multivariate functions.
16:54:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Calc III covers calculus on multivariate functions.
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16:54:49 <oklopol> we have a course called multivariate functions, but it's given by a very old guy, so it's way too hard for everybody
16:54:49 <pikhq> Aand calc II is a mishmash of various topics that didn't get covered in calc I.
16:55:17 <oklopol> the old dudes still think like students should actually work for the courses
16:55:32 <pikhq> Sgeo: You can take "Foundations of Programming I" *or* "Programming in Visual Basic".
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16:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I can only conclude that it is educating farmers in CS applicable to sheep feeders.
16:56:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: Frankly, I'd be worried about your courses *transferring*.
16:56:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's not even a CS degree!
16:57:15 -!- charlvn has joined.
16:58:00 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember how many universities there are in Edinburgh, fails.
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16:59:07 <oklopol> i was there just recently, we could've played the bagpipe together
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16:59:58 <oklopol> fuck do i know what you ppl do in your spare time
17:00:34 <Gregor> Almost as good as accordions.
17:00:39 <pikhq> You're also required at Sgeo's school to take "Management Theories and Practices"...
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17:00:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, not when you can't go anywhere near the city centre without hearing them!
17:00:55 <pikhq> ... He's required to take more business classes than math classes!
17:01:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: Your degree is a joke.
17:03:07 <oklopol> haha i wonder if they teach Sgeo to mind his own business haha
17:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> (Also, why do you Americans not have universities? Why is it all colleges?)
17:03:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: SUNY Farmingdale.
17:03:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And we do have universities; we just tend to refer to any degree-granting institution as a "college".
17:03:58 <pikhq> Including universities.
17:04:05 <oklopol> Sgeo: which do you regret more, going to fd or mentioning it here? :D
17:04:29 <Sgeo> Although there were some nice things social-wise
17:04:38 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAIU colleges here are either constituents of universities or places that do some kind of vocational training.
17:04:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Colleges are *also* constituents of universities here...
17:05:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: In addition to being any degree-granting institution.
17:05:09 <Gregor> <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And we do have universities; we just tend to refer to any degree-granting institution as a "college". // uhh ... no?
17:05:22 <Gregor> Well, yeah, I guess so ... implicitly.
17:05:31 <Gregor> You say "I go to college" even if you go to a university.
17:05:46 <pikhq> You say "college degree" even if it's from a univeristy.
17:06:00 <pikhq> You actually *call* it a college even if it's a university...
17:07:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Arguably, even our public universities are for-profit.
17:07:21 <oklopol> usa has for-profit free food for the poor organizations
17:07:23 <coppro> here, colleges are not universities
17:07:34 <pikhq> The USA also has for-proift prisons.
17:07:57 <coppro> pikhq: inmates don't get to vote right?
17:08:08 <pikhq> coppro: It depends on the state, actually.
17:10:19 <Gregor> "Two states—Maine and Vermont—allow prison inmates to vote."
17:10:39 <coppro> (inmates got the vote here thanks to the Charter(
17:11:02 <Gregor> Disenfranchisement is considered elsewhere to be part of the punishment for crime *shrugs*
17:11:11 <Gregor> If people actually cared about voting, then it would be a legit punishment :P
17:11:30 <coppro> the problem is that by denying inmates the right to vote, you effectively deny any useful commentary on the prison system
17:11:30 <pikhq> Two states disenfranchise all felons. Even after their sentence is done.
17:11:42 <coppro> since the only users of a prison get no say
17:11:58 <pikhq> Kentucky and Virginia.
17:12:14 <coppro> that sounds surprisingly liberal for texas
17:12:40 <pikhq> Texas isn't completely *nuts*.
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17:16:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yup!
17:16:19 <Gregor> cheater00: Push button, receive weetabix D'AWWWW
17:16:20 <quintopia> coppro: most prison inmates never voted a day in their life, and even if they all did, they'd still be in the minority
17:16:45 <pikhq> It's only old people that vote in the US.
17:17:14 <pikhq> So, the politics tends to trail decades behind.
17:17:16 <impomatic> We vote with student riots in the U.K.
17:17:17 <quintopia> hence the AARP being the biggest most powerful PAC
17:17:33 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:22:22 <quintopia> =old people's society and =lobbying organization
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17:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, that is quite possibly the most hilarious thing I have heard about US politics.
17:24:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Your country. Is ruled. By an old people's organisation.
17:24:44 <quintopia> all the major politicians are old people too. at least the president is young
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17:37:25 <Vorpal> fun "microcode error detected" from wlan card. rmmod and modprobe worked
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17:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq was telling Sgeo that his college is the worst ever, in detail.
18:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (Turns out they do more management courses than mathematical ones.)
18:00:18 <elliott> 02:21:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, they already updated Painterly.
18:00:18 <elliott> 02:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> That is astonishing.
18:03:49 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I've never worn a kilt, either. <-- YOU'RE NO TRUE SCOTSMAN!
18:05:18 <elliott> 08:24:17 <Gregor> Wow, Weetabix looks extremely gross :P
18:05:18 <elliott> 08:24:37 <Gregor> "Here is a dense, solid block of cereal product. Digest it."
18:09:31 -!- Behold has joined.
18:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> 08:37:46 <Sgeo> Easy commute + not as competitive ← wait, surely you could, y'know, live away from home.
18:09:58 <elliott> UNTHINKABLE HIS DAD WOULD BEAT HIM INTO A BLOODY PULP
18:10:01 <elliott> 08:32:52 <quintopia> oklopol: you're slowly convincing me that I should go gay. keep it up and I'll soon be asking you to undress...
18:10:52 <Sgeo> I was never allowed to go to sleep-away camp as a kid
18:10:58 <Sgeo> My parents thought I wouldn't eat.
18:11:25 <elliott> I need live advice, people: do I laugh, or do I curl into a ball and cry on Sgeo's behalf?
18:11:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:11:29 <elliott> I can do both, but I need to know the order.
18:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "No, Seth, you can't go to camp, you won't eat." "But I LIKE eating!" "Not at camp, you won't."
18:11:47 <oerjan> elliott: simultaneously
18:11:52 <elliott> Isn't it well-known that Sgeo doesn't actually like eating at all.
18:11:59 <Sgeo> What elliott said.
18:12:01 <elliott> 08:36:25 <Sgeo> pikhq, is there a way to confirm that my college isn't one of them?
18:12:02 <elliott> 08:36:42 <Sgeo> [It doesn't sound like one. I think]
18:12:02 <elliott> Let me think... SUNY... STATE UNIVERSITY of New York ... hmm ... state university ... hmmmmmmmmmm
18:12:15 <elliott> Probably an independent, for-profit corporation.
18:12:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You don't know this ...?
18:13:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because it comes up all the time?
18:13:32 <Sgeo> My sleep issues are relatively recent!
18:13:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: next, breathing!
18:13:47 <elliott> "But my eating issues you can RELY on!
18:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so you can't live in student accommodation because you won't eat?
18:14:56 <elliott> i can set up a bot to order you to eat at regular intervals
18:15:09 <Sgeo> My step-mom's convinced that my unwillingness to organize and throw stuff out in this messy house is an indication that I can't live on my own
18:15:17 <Sgeo> [My step-mom's crazier than my dad]
18:15:36 <elliott> Sgeo's step mother has never seen student accommodation.
18:15:41 <elliott> And believes it to be a place of cleanliness and perfection
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18:16:34 <Sgeo> "You're not allowed to date non-Jewish girls" "You're ill"
18:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, that offer to kidnap your father is now extended to murdering your stepmother.
18:17:00 <elliott> "You're not allowed to date non-Jewish girls" <-- bitch
18:17:41 <Gregor> Since when is Sgeo even Jewish?
18:17:56 <Sgeo> She also says that that my mom wanted me to only date Jewish girls. While I think my mom would prefer it slightly, I don't think she was that strict about it"
18:18:01 <Gregor> Besides, the Jewish side of my family says things more like "You're not allowed to date Jewish girls."
18:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, why did you not just spit in her face at this point?
18:19:14 <elliott> Bonus points for not melting your tongue and gums firts
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18:21:04 <elliott> Sgeo: i'm not sure if it's been mentioned enough but you should transfer to another college right now before it's too late and you get a useless degree that gets you nowhere at all ever
18:21:06 * oerjan now imagines Sgeo always wearing hasidic garb
18:21:31 <elliott> alternatively drop out because you could just scribble some crayons on a piece of blank paper and get a degree of similar usefulness
18:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, say you're going on a date with KT-AT and NEVER COME BACK
18:21:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TRYING TO OFFER SERIOUS LIFE ADVICE HERE
18:22:49 <oklopol> i'm sure Sgeo is aware that he could just leave if he liked
18:23:04 <Sgeo> But my degree is almost done!
18:23:04 <elliott> oklopol: i'm not sure he's aware that it's the only sane option
18:23:18 <elliott> Sgeo: And...then what? You're not gonna get into grad school with it ...
18:23:37 <elliott> Sgeo: If you transfer it's not like you're going to have to start at square one...
18:23:38 <Sgeo> Not even at another SUNY school?
18:23:46 <Sgeo> Can I get a degree and then transfer?
18:23:58 <elliott> You see, you get the degree when you *finish* college.
18:24:02 <elliott> You transfer while you are *in* college.
18:24:33 <Sgeo> Can I do all the required courses for a degree, and just not get the degree?
18:24:50 <oklopol> they don't just automatically give it to you
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18:24:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Choice 1: (1) Finish useless degree. (2) Be unable to get into grad school. Choice 2: (1) Transfer to another college. (2) Finish good degree. (3) Get into grad school. Choice 3: what you said but why would you want to do that
18:25:25 <Sgeo> Because the senior project sounds like something I need to do. Have a real project.
18:25:41 <elliott> Because there won't be any "real projects" in another college ...
18:26:37 <quintopia> it sounds like a drastic solution i know, but when all of #esoteric vehemently agrees...well, desperate times call for it
18:26:50 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, since beginning of 2008
18:27:05 <elliott> You need to get out of that shithole.
18:27:26 <quintopia> as you said, sunk cost. best not to sink anymore
18:27:40 <elliott> Because if you sink... you DROWN </overblown nautical metaphor>
18:28:05 <Sgeo> It felt like a summer that wouldn't end
18:28:24 <Sgeo> [I hate summers]
18:28:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, um, hm
18:28:40 <elliott> It was one of those freakish year-long summers.
18:29:02 <Sgeo> elliott, just half a year
18:29:07 <elliott> quintopia: do we need to go and tell sgeo to transfer in person
18:29:19 <elliott> let's all do this together!
18:29:21 <Phantom_Hoover> What were you doing that meant you sat around for the end of 2007?
18:29:35 <quintopia> elliott: fuck that. that's more work even than filling out the transfer papers for him and hell if i'm doing that.
18:29:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, my step-mom and dad wanted me to go to Israel for a little while. That didn't happen.
18:29:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BECAUSE HE'S A GOOD JEW
18:30:08 <elliott> quintopia: Yeah, but he'll give us less horrific stories if he gets out of there, and that's worth anything.
18:30:50 <quintopia> well, i suppose i would feel awful good about helping someone so desperately in need
18:31:00 <quintopia> and as long as you're buying the tix...
18:31:33 <quintopia> somewhere near farmingdale ny obviously
18:31:48 <oklopol> just like the rest of you people WHO I THOUGHT WERE MY FRIENDS
18:32:00 <elliott> quintopia: ok we'll meet him AT the college then
18:32:13 <elliott> i know his name and what he looks like when dressed in a fursuit^Wblood drop costue
18:32:16 <Sgeo> I wonder how my dad would react if he met you
18:32:29 <elliott> Sgeo: We'll never find out, because he'd be unconscious before he realised.
18:33:03 <oklopol> yeah he and quinn could have a beer together
18:33:04 <quintopia> because he likes people who are smarter than him, right?
18:33:13 <elliott> yeah totally that's why he treats Sgeo like a king
18:33:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I know what his head looks like when he's not in a bloodsuit.
18:33:29 <elliott> quintopia: okay, so, if we meet him at farmingdale, we need to throw him into the back of a truck
18:33:35 <elliott> and drive him to a good college
18:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> He wouldn't like me, because I am extremely insufferable.
18:33:46 <elliott> go up to the first official-looking person we see
18:33:58 <elliott> "This poor man was in SUNY FARMINGDALE."
18:34:03 <quintopia> elliott: you rent the truck, i'll drive with my AMURRCAN driver's license
18:34:04 <elliott> "And he didn't even KNOW the implications."
18:34:10 <elliott> They will look horrified, and take him in.
18:34:22 <elliott> quintopia: how does that plan sound to you
18:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, clearly you should chloroform him because you are stunted by malnourishment and as such he will suspect nothing.
18:34:47 <oklopol> why don't people kidnap each other just for giggles anymore
18:34:50 <quintopia> just to see the look on the poor official looking person's face
18:35:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: SGEO KNOWS WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE STUNTED BY MALNOURISHMENT
18:35:05 <elliott> oklopol: i miss the good ol' days
18:35:25 <quintopia> it's true. sgeo is mentally malnourished in farmingdale
18:35:37 <elliott> 09:17:16 <impomatic> We vote with student riots in the U.K.
18:35:40 <elliott> that would be the greatest voting system
18:35:48 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, naw, elliott is physically malnourished due to the Harrying of the North.
18:35:49 <elliott> "WE DEMAND HIGHER PENSIONS FOR THE ELDERLY"
18:36:19 <quintopia> that...is how politics works in the U.S.
18:36:32 <elliott> and do they actually count as votes
18:37:14 <elliott> i suggest a riot on sgeo's house
18:37:22 <elliott> mostly because i dunno how you'd vote in sgeo's house
18:37:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, votes are made by bludgeoning Sgeo's father and stepmother.
18:38:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo doesn't live with his stepmother.
18:38:13 <quintopia> and we say "we're all having a vote on whether sgeo has to transfer"
18:38:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THINGS I AM RAPIDLY TIRING OF: Remakes of random music in Minecraft.
18:38:19 <quintopia> we'll even let his parents vote too
18:38:37 <elliott> wait does Sgeo get to vote
18:39:10 <quintopia> elliott: let's be fair and let everyone in the household vote. there can't be more than 5 of them and there are at least 20 of us...
18:39:19 <elliott> quintopia: isn't it just Sgeo and his father.
18:39:23 <oklopol> how do you what we're going to vote
18:39:36 <quintopia> if so, they can both vote, why not?
18:39:55 <quintopia> i would hate to be accused of being unfair
18:39:58 <Sgeo> Just me and my dad
18:40:05 <Sgeo> Bye, going to meet up with KT-AT
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18:40:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So I've been thinking about yellowstone (Notch feckin stole blue for lapis).
18:41:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The opening of this video is the most amazing thing ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewFrgDPCgGA
18:41:27 <elliott> Watch it. You will not regret it.
18:44:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opuQmQy87x4
18:49:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have an idea for an RNG in Minecraft.
18:50:03 <elliott> As in, using only existing blocks.
18:51:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: AFAIK nobody has made an RNG in Minecraft before.
18:51:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: One that seeds itself.
18:51:47 <elliott> i.e., if you run the circuit multiple times, you'll get different results.
18:51:53 <elliott> Even if you restore a save.
18:51:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What door? Also, it probably had a predefined seed.
18:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> A friend elsewhere has just said that Chrome logs your browsing history to Google.
18:53:11 <elliott> See Preferences -> Under the Bonnet for an enumeration of all the communication Chrome does to Google.
18:53:22 <j-invariant> I tohught it was some funny trick with the smelter
18:53:22 <elliott> When you put stuff in the address bar it tells Google, to get search results there.
18:53:34 <elliott> It also uses the phishing/malware protection that, sure, sends domain names.
18:53:45 <elliott> And... when you get an error page it asks Google for some likely results.
18:53:48 <elliott> All of these are disableable.
18:54:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If he disagrees, tell him to point you to the line in the source code where it communicates with Google.
18:55:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am VERY UPSET that you are not asking me about my amazing RNG idea!
18:56:05 <oklopol> me too, because i was too lazy to ask myself
18:56:19 <elliott> Dispensers throw items a seemingly random distance.
18:56:25 <elliott> Surround a dispenser with wooden pressure plates.
18:56:33 <elliott> Use the resulting pressure plate patterns.
18:56:44 <elliott> Issues: (1) Can't reset automatically, AFAIK.
18:56:57 <elliott> Of course, you'd just use the result as a seed.
18:57:02 <elliott> you'd have to account for that
18:57:15 <elliott> by weighting the value of each plate or whatever
18:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzERWnFoW54&feature=related
18:58:03 <elliott> I guess it's because of minute lag in the redstone system.
18:58:07 <elliott> vs. the game clock or something.
18:58:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But if redstone wasn't buggy like that, then my idea would still work!
18:58:34 <elliott> j-invariant: kiershar knows all.
18:59:05 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:00:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1021&t=114491
19:01:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This pack looks awesome.
19:02:19 <oklopol> there should be a university that has a program in game physics, that is, the whole program is just about reverse-engineering games in-game. would make much more sense than just physics, because instead of one uninteresting universe, you'd have all kinds of universes.
19:03:42 <j-invariant> and minecraft cosmology, we did a bit of that here the other day
19:04:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, Optimine is great.
19:04:24 <elliott> far/fancy without my fan going to 100%
19:04:59 <oklopol> j-invariant: those topics make sense within this universe, but i'm not sure biology of games would be very a coherent field
19:05:05 <oklopol> by physics, i meant all natural sciences
19:09:08 <oklopol> i'm not even kidding about that in-game experimentation thing, i never understood the point of finding out stuff about this particular universe, it doesn't get much less interesting than this
19:09:41 <oklopol> "hey you can move around, and if you work for hours you can make an object that's slightly better suited for bashing containers open"
19:09:42 <Slereah> The genetics in Creature is pretty complex, from what I've read
19:09:46 <Slereah> At least as far as games go
19:09:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh boy. There's a bloom filter fort he GLSL shaders mod :P
19:09:51 <elliott> Slereah: Don't make Sgeo start
19:10:20 <oklopol> Slereah: and even better, you actually get to try them out
19:10:48 <Slereah> Well, you can do it on earth, too
19:10:53 <Slereah> It just takes longer than a day
19:10:57 <oklopol> you can also build a computer in minecraft
19:11:04 <oklopol> who the fuck would, after it's been tested once, tho
19:11:18 <Slereah> You could make a MUSIC BOX
19:11:32 <j-invariant> I got so lost my saved game as become 20 megabytes
19:12:04 <Slereah> I try not to wander too far if I don't have a tunnel near
19:12:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720 YESSSSS
19:12:45 <Vorpal> j-invariant, my local world1 is about 100 MB iirc
19:13:01 <Vorpal> world2 and world3 are about 25-30 MB iirc
19:13:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it has hardcoded side-grass. Lame.
19:13:10 <Slereah> But then again, I do spend a time making my lair pretty
19:13:24 <Vorpal> j-invariant, my local test server world: 110 MB
19:14:04 <Vorpal> j-invariant, build (mega-scale). Explore. Spelunk
19:14:11 <Vorpal> j-invariant, remember I play on peaceful.
19:14:31 <Vorpal> j-invariant, night is just a minor light level inconvenience to me thus
19:15:11 <Slereah> You need to man up, and spend every night cowering in fear in your lair!
19:15:16 <elliott> j-invariant: try mcregion to get smaller files
19:15:25 <elliott> j-invariant: optimine + mcregion = awesome fast
19:16:05 <j-invariant> WTF a creeper just jumped off a cliff to get me
19:16:37 <Slereah> He is a suicide bomber, j-invariant
19:16:55 <elliott> Slereah: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720
19:16:55 <Vorpal> j-invariant, idea: creepers able to build 1x1 towers of dirt to reach you
19:16:58 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720
19:17:02 <elliott> Slereah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X32nuDEvw-4
19:17:11 <oklopol> all enemies should be able to mine and build just like you
19:17:36 <oklopol> think how neato, you'd never be safe if they get your scent
19:17:58 <elliott> optimine + mcregion + mipmapping + better light = fuck yeah
19:18:03 <oklopol> so if you walk on the surface during the day, they'll start digging near that area
19:18:11 <Vorpal> oklopol, if you are inside a obsidian structure?
19:18:18 <oklopol> Vorpal: well you basically have to be
19:18:20 <j-invariant> do you need something special to mine those bricks tht look like coal but white?
19:18:27 <coppro> WHY IS THIS #minecraft
19:18:32 <oklopol> well you're safe unless they find diamond
19:18:51 <oklopol> they have the whole night to look for it
19:18:52 <elliott> oklopol: Phantom_Hoover just scared me into thinking that accidentally today
19:18:55 <elliott> oklopol: imo i think just zombies should mine
19:18:55 <Vorpal> oklopol, you can mine away obsidian at lower than that
19:19:00 <elliott> creepers explode, skeletons fire arrows, zombies mine
19:19:06 <elliott> after all they look like us and we can mine, and have no special power now
19:19:08 <Vorpal> oklopol, just you won't get any obsidian blocks dropped
19:19:15 <oklopol> think about it, every night, a thousand creatures are born that have all the powers of a player, that try to kill you
19:19:51 <elliott> Slereah: They can move and jump and punch, so they can mine.
19:20:21 <oklopol> Slereah: except somehow i think they would necessarily be a bit less smart than the player
19:20:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should I enable Better Grass or not.
19:20:43 <Vorpal> I SOMEHOW just got a stack of 65
19:20:44 <Slereah> You can try it multiplayer
19:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> i'm not even kidding about that in-game experimentation thing, i never understood the point of finding out stuff about this particular universe, it doesn't get much less interesting than this
19:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> We don't even know how it works, and what we do know about that is very interesting.
19:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> For a start, a fair bit of new mathematics has come from physics.
19:21:49 <oklopol> the actual dynamics are not at all interesting
19:22:19 <oklopol> that's a bit subjective, but i'm sure you all agree
19:22:29 <oklopol> that's why people play minecraft instead of football
19:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, erm, what is so boring about quantum physics?
19:23:01 <oklopol> quantum physics is not something you can actually do stuff with
19:23:19 <oklopol> yeah, if you've built a computer in minecraft
19:23:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOLY FUCK CREEPER IN THE DAY
19:23:51 <Slereah> Day creepers are the worst man
19:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the essential reason that we study the way this universe works rather than artificial ones is because a) this one is the one we actually live in and b) we don't actually know how this one works, unlike any artificial ones we make.
19:24:17 <Slereah> When I die, I'm not getting my stuff bck
19:24:25 <elliott> It was day on the FIRST DAY
19:24:27 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: we certainly do not know how the artificial ones work either
19:24:58 <oklopol> no one really knows anything about gol
19:24:59 <elliott> has evidently fixed side grass
19:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And working bottom-up is not what we are doing with reality.
19:25:03 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/YlDro.png
19:27:13 <oklopol> but what are interesting are the methods of going top-down, and how simple things turn into macro-things. both can be done separately with artificial models, except you don't have to own a university to be able to do that, and you're not restricted by whatever god chose to include!
19:27:22 <elliott> "The most recent update was on January 15th, and is henceforth known as the Community Appeasement Grab Bag Edition MK II. This update adds nearly 100 new tiles and skins, for the 1.2 beta patch. "
19:28:27 <elliott> Oak is the normal tree type, right?
19:28:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I looked at the customiser, and it had added a Chinese theme.
19:28:40 <elliott> Omg, finally, I can replace the fucking fugly birch tree bark.
19:29:39 <pikhq> ARGH MY SAVE DISAPPEARED ENTIRELY
19:29:39 <impomatic> ais523: pastebin.ca has been for over a week... Is there any chance you could upload your BF Joust interpreter elsewhere?
19:29:45 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
19:29:50 <elliott> pikhq: I don't get the problems you do.
19:29:57 <elliott> impomatic: use egojoust, it's fairer
19:29:58 <pikhq> I'm hitting every edge case!
19:30:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I helped him pirate it.
19:30:16 <elliott> oklopol: it's not updated yet.
19:30:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: People who like dark wood textures have a brain disease: discuss.
19:30:26 <Vorpal> oklopol, I saw you join
19:30:38 <Vorpal> oklopol, downgrade minecraft and use a non-updating launcher
19:30:40 <pikhq> It's my next purchase when I have expendable income.
19:30:42 <oklopol> oh right so i should've prevented update as well? shit
19:30:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Umm, why do you hate humanity?
19:30:54 <elliott> oklopol: just play locally for now
19:30:59 <elliott> the update is well worth it.
19:31:03 <oklopol> but playing locally is totally gay!
19:31:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Actually I'm going to try dark wood.)
19:31:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you use the brick-planks or the line-planks?
19:31:35 <pikhq> elliott: *Part* of the problem is that Minecraft and an IME do not interact at all.
19:31:41 <elliott> pikhq: So disable the IME :P
19:31:49 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, I closed it.
19:31:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'll try it ... this once...
19:32:09 <pikhq> elliott: But, yeah. That's only going to come up for East Asian-language-speakers.
19:32:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't got there yet!
19:32:21 -!- Behold has joined.
19:32:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Moar sign options!
19:32:28 <pikhq> (I group them only because their *technological* requirements are very similar)
19:32:31 <elliott> Good thing too, I don't like the bordered-sign.
19:32:43 <oklopol> so umm, can i change textures by just changing some sort of pic files
19:32:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DO YOU USE LIGHT OR DARK STONE
19:32:57 <elliott> oklopol: you want to make your own pack?
19:33:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why obviously.
19:33:21 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Texture_Pack
19:33:27 <elliott> oklopol: look at that list of modifiable files
19:33:31 <elliott> oklopol: copy them all out of minecraft.jar
19:33:43 <elliott> %APPDATA/.minecraft/texturepacks
19:33:47 <elliott> and edit terrain.png inside the zip
19:33:51 <elliott> also other files, but terrain.png is all the blocks
19:34:02 <elliott> you _can_ change them direct in the jar but this is more maintainable
19:34:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, beige is nice
19:34:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I... need a screenshot of your setup with both stone and wood, because it sounds horrifically dark.
19:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, remember that stupid basic texture pack for slow computers.
19:34:24 <oklopol> okay, that sounds like *seconds* of work
19:34:36 <j-invariant> apparently you can use a stone pickaxe to get iron
19:34:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I NEED SCREENSHOT (also, wood is).
19:34:49 <elliott> j-invariant: Dude, I found iron on my third in-game day...
19:34:54 <elliott> You are mining terribly :P
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19:36:40 <elliott> Minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/ZODJz.gif
19:37:26 <elliott> oklopol: so is your texture pack done
19:37:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THINGS THAT ARE NOT IN THAT PICTURE: Stone
19:38:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's 30m up from the ground. Of course there's no stone.
19:38:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But I asked for stone!
19:38:52 <elliott> DISAPPOINTED PLEASE GIVE SCREENSHOT WITH STONE
19:39:18 <oklopol> so can i have alpha color everywhere
19:39:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: looks like gravel
19:39:33 <elliott> oklopol: not on every block i don't think
19:39:43 <elliott> oklopol: with leaves you can have full alpha, dunno about half
19:39:47 <elliott> oklopol: and ice is half-transparent or whatever
19:39:52 <elliott> oklopol: btw changing water/lava does not work
19:39:58 <elliott> you need to use this fancy mcpatcher thing to do that but whatever
19:40:10 <elliott> oklopol: also the blocks at the bottom are the digging animation, you can use any greyscale there
19:40:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So ocean of grey > ocean of beige? :P
19:40:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like beige. Wait, do you use dark cobblstone too?
19:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you're a tetrachromat, and since that requires you to be female, there's not much chance of that.
19:41:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like beige. Wait, do you use dark cobblstone too? <-- I like beige as well
19:41:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We are ... no longer friends.
19:41:43 -!- elliott has changed nick to alise.
19:41:47 -!- alise has changed nick to elliott.
19:42:07 <elliott> I got chromosome reassignment surgery.
19:42:24 <elliott> And became a tetrachromat in the process!
19:42:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so clearly you regressed to a zygote and regrew?
19:42:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think that's a fetish, but no.
19:42:56 <elliott> They changed them in-place.
19:43:16 <elliott> So my eyes changed obviously, because they had new chromosomes now.
19:43:31 <elliott> Oh really? Then why am I a tetrachromat?
19:44:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Your body doesn't go "oh, look, the DNA changed. Must bring phenotype up to date, then."
19:44:46 <elliott> "I want Lapis Lazuli ground into a powder for dyes." Ooh...
19:45:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What redstone wire do you use?
19:45:25 <elliott> The ornate one looks cool.
19:45:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hopefully you can agree that the Painterly chests and doors are hideous, though.
19:46:01 <elliott> YOU CANNOT DO THAT IN 16 PIXELS WITHOUT LOOKING HIDEOUS
19:46:22 <elliott> Yes. Which is all of them.
19:46:33 <Vorpal> the light wood ones are good
19:46:38 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
19:46:59 <elliott> "Give me Chinese-style windows." UGLIEST
19:47:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which sandstone option is most realistic.
19:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I went for bricks since I'm used to seeing it used for that.
19:47:31 <elliott> Original cloth of woven cloth?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
19:47:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Smooth-topped?
19:48:16 <elliott> Smooth-topped sandstone columns look nice... but I'll stick with the default for now.
19:49:06 <fizzie> Personally "I would like BARONS DEF CHARGER'S woven cloth texture", even despite the name.
19:49:16 <elliott> fizzie: That's the one I've been usin' too.
19:49:17 <elliott> "I want a metal creeper insignia ornate monster spawner cage."
19:49:35 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:49:56 <elliott> "Change my wood door into an unstained light wood door." ;; I would use this one if it were darker.
19:50:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Chocolate cake, I hope.
19:51:01 <elliott> "I want my sugar in a bag like civilized people."
19:51:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you even human?
19:51:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *The Minecraft cake is chocolate*.
19:51:28 <elliott> Also, the cake in Portal is chocolate.
19:52:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, Notch *said* it was chocolate, and the sponge is dark enough for it.
19:52:19 <elliott> And yes, the cake in Portal is chocolate.
19:52:20 <elliott> http://theknittingdefective.typepad.com/.a/6a0115714ad401970c011572419026970b-800wi
19:52:32 <elliott> Better shot: http://honestcake.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/portal_and_there_will_be_cake.jpg
19:52:51 <elliott> WHAT PAINTING OPTIONS DO YOU USE
19:52:59 <fizzie> That looks like a plastic cake.
19:53:23 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:53:26 <elliott> "Give me an ink sac, straight from the squid." Disgusting; I'll take the splatter.
19:54:06 <elliott> Fuck you, default choice, my chickens are CHICKENS.
19:54:39 <elliott> People who use glowing-eyed creepers are abortions: discuss.
19:54:54 <elliott> In fact, people who use anything other than "Give me a Creeper that looks more like the original!" are probably Nazis.
19:55:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU ARE THE WORST PERSON.
19:56:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What game cursor do you use.
19:56:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I hate you.
19:56:41 -!- pingveno has joined.
19:57:11 <elliott> 1.1.10_01 - Fixed custom water/lava for beta 1.1_02
19:57:17 <elliott> Gee, I wonder if it'll work on 1.2_01.
19:58:04 <elliott> The custom water/lava options are disabled.
19:58:12 <elliott> I'll use default water for now ...
19:58:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but anyway, that basic texture back thing has been taken down because noöne donated to it.
19:58:39 <elliott> I hope whatever's causing that fucked-up side grass goes away.
19:58:53 <elliott> Oh god, the brick background on the title screen is ugly.
20:00:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The "radios" are jukeboxes, right?
20:00:23 <oerjan> <elliott> People who use glowing-eyed creepers are abortions: discuss. <Phantom_Hoover> I use glowing-eyed creepers! <-- i am starting to see a trend here...
20:00:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is the worst person.
20:01:16 <elliott> Ornate dispenser so ugly oh my god
20:01:35 <elliott> "I want an industrial simple dispenser." is nice.
20:02:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You at least use "I want cobblestone with larger individual stones.", surely?
20:02:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And marble half blocks?
20:02:47 <elliott> At least you're human in one area.
20:02:59 <elliott> fizzie: Tell me you agree that Phantom_Hoover's texture pack options are insane.
20:03:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover is half-creeper
20:03:16 <j-invariant> 20:05 < AliG> I is here with my man and we ares chattin about something well important, math.
20:03:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "I want to use the flat Painterly lapis lazuli block." yes?
20:03:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think you should die.
20:04:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: he said die, not dye
20:04:49 <elliott> GRR, that stupid grass problem hasn't fixed itself. I need to repatch everything.
20:05:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Holy shit, what coal ore do you use, the default dark stone coal ore is amazingly bad.
20:05:43 <oerjan> coal with extra sulphur, clearly
20:05:55 <elliott> mipmapping + painterly = love
20:06:05 <elliott> Game looks fucking amazing.
20:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I used the default coal ore because it was that or beige or strangely machined coal chunks.
20:07:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dude, it's grey, not beige.
20:07:46 <elliott> Can I just say now that Painterly dirt tiles terribly.
20:09:09 <ais523> is pastebin.ca down for good?
20:09:16 <ais523> it hasn't worked on any of my recent attempts to access it
20:10:00 <elliott> ais523: it was up only a few days ago
20:10:11 <elliott> ais523: filebin has been down forever, though
20:11:16 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I implemented tsort for changesets
20:11:26 <elliott> ais523: probably wildly inefficient
20:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I have installed Optimine, mipmapping, MCPATCHER, Better Light and Painterly.
20:11:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You don't need mcpatcher.
20:11:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just put it in texturepacks?
20:11:54 <elliott> There's native texture pack support now.
20:11:59 <elliott> mcpatcher is only required for custom water and lava.
20:12:02 <elliott> Which don't work right now.
20:12:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Those buttons just make it use the DEFAULT Minecraft water/lava.
20:12:34 <elliott> Until custom water/lava are reenabled, mcpatcher does nothing for non-HD packs.
20:12:50 <elliott> Does your side-grass get coloured weirdly, too?
20:14:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I *didn't*.
20:14:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And it also happened with the default pack.
20:14:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The problem is that it's colouring the dirt parts too for some reason according to the biome.
20:15:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/YlDro.png
20:16:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, that's some mod.
20:17:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I INSTALLED THE SAME MODS AS YOU.
20:17:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, you forgot mcregion.
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20:21:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Respawned - half the clay returned - but still in my inventory - fuck yea
20:21:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh wow, it is comical how bad the game looks without mipmapping and Better Light.
20:22:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think that stint with side-grass-that-looks-like-pure-grass has convinced me that either Better Grass or Painterly's 1/1 grass option are awesome.
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20:23:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do beaches usually have a ton of brown mushrooms on them?
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20:25:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Notch hasn't hired Scaevolus yet; discuss.
20:25:28 <augur> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f2wvt/is_this_a_secret_fallout_puzzle_it_looks_like_a/
20:25:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The author of Optimine and mcregion.
20:25:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A part of Optimine was included in 1.2.
20:25:47 <augur> maybe its not a message and is just a bunch of keys for lockers..
20:25:57 <augur> or something like that
20:26:02 <elliott> augur: PSHT WHAT SILLINESS
20:26:40 <augur> also, if it IS a code, surely you could figure it out pretty quickly, at least if it were binary, morse, baudot, ...
20:27:05 <elliott> augur: >expecting intelligence from /r/gaming
20:27:21 <Vorpal> <augur> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f2wvt/is_this_a_secret_fallout_puzzle_it_looks_like_a/ <-- nice myst reference in the comments :D
20:27:43 <augur> good thing its the first comment so i was guaranteed to see it as i read the comments.
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20:28:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait what, MC can still read my McRegion save.
20:28:53 <augur> ok its time to watch some lectures on the russian revolution
20:29:06 <augur> well, more of a discussion
20:29:39 <augur> oh. nevermind. this is boring and short
20:29:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I started a new mcregion game.
20:31:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, I'ma skip Better Grass, since Painterly has an equivalent as a texture option.
20:31:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (OK, so with Better Grass I'd get 2/3 instead of 1/1 when there's dirt below, but I always thought that looked weird.)
20:31:27 <elliott> Putting dirt below a grass block should not cause it to lose grass!
20:31:49 <augur> elliott: im making a tagging app
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20:34:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dude, I just did it all from scratch.
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20:34:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Optimine -> McRegion -> Mipmapping -> Better Light, in that order.
20:34:33 <elliott> Side grass dirt is still biome-tinted.
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20:35:03 <elliott> ais523: how would you recommend handling the fact that there are different types of change? one type for files (lists of lines), one type for directories (sets of directory entries), etc...
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20:36:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *blink* mcpatcher JUST GOT UPDATED.
20:36:54 <elliott> It has custom water/lava now.
20:37:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So tick custom water/lava, detick animated water/lava, and ENJOY
20:37:04 <augur_> sorry, elliott, if you said anything after my response i didnt see it
20:37:10 <elliott> <augur> elliott: im making a tagging app
20:37:32 <augur_> ok so you didnt get my answer
20:37:33 <augur_> what tagged: files, urls, text; what os: mac; what purpose: nothing does precisely what i like
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20:39:00 <augur> elliott: how do you organize your ideas and stuff you find interesting and so forth?
20:39:25 <elliott> irc :P ... in practice i use a file system
20:39:29 <elliott> in @ it's basically based on search
20:39:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU, it seems that mcpatcher's custom water/lava overrides mipmapping.
20:40:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So I'll have to copy the custom files into minecraft.jar myself.
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20:42:38 <elliott> OK, here's what I'll do: Optimine -> McRegion -> Mipmapping -> Better Light -> manual copy of custom water files. (If that does in fact work.)
20:42:47 <elliott> That won't solve the side grass issue.
20:43:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, seriously, screenshot some damn side-grass for me, I do not believe that you do not see the issue with these mods.
20:43:13 <augur> elliott: well, i use a file system too, but my organizational habits arent well adapted to file systems
20:43:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What order did you install them in? You realise some of them overwrite the others?
20:43:33 <elliott> augur: Nobody's are. But nobody likes tagging either, and you'll slip doing it eventually.
20:43:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No it doesn't what?
20:43:44 <augur> elliott: will not! :|
20:43:50 <augur> i used delicious right up to the end
20:43:54 <augur> that was like four years worth
20:44:00 <elliott> delicious still exists, you know
20:44:15 <augur> yeah but its supposedly closing
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20:45:08 <augur> unless they changed their plans
20:45:09 <elliott> which has always been the case
20:45:10 <elliott> ITT: believing everything you hear on reddit
20:45:10 <elliott> and then not seeing follow-up posts
20:45:11 <augur> ah ok, well they were supposedly just closing
20:45:12 <augur> either way, i want tags for my files and for ideas too, not just links
20:45:12 <elliott> based on one slide from a presentation that never actually said that.
20:45:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do not what.
20:45:33 <augur> elliott: files are useful!
20:45:34 <augur> i have lots of them
20:45:35 <elliott> augur: They are not useful.
20:45:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me what order you installed mods in.
20:45:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, be aware that I'm using the new mcpatcher which was updated at 8:25 pm.
20:45:54 <elliott> Which is not the version you used.
20:46:35 <elliott> augur: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html is a very whiny and very incomplete page, but it's more than you'd get out of me right now while I'm busy bugging Phantom_Hoover.
20:46:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you going to give me the order of mods...?
20:46:57 <elliott> augur: Or so I hear. Apparently italics are whiny, I use a lot of them.
20:47:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Optimine, mcregion, mipmapping, Better Light + Grass, mcpatcher.
20:47:17 <augur> i was just commenting more on you commenting your own shit as whiny
20:47:33 <elliott> augur: I didn't think it was whiny until everyone informed me it was. :p
20:47:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You mean that with Better Grass, which turns all the side of grass blocks into grass, you don't see tinted dirt? HOLY SHIT YOU'RE KIDDING ME
20:47:59 <elliott> Maybe that's because there IS NO DIRT?
20:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Better Grass leaves some blocks with the default side grass texture.
20:49:25 <augur> elliott: MATRIX DIRT?!
20:49:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Screenshot, please. Also, what checkboxes did you tick in mcpatcher?
20:49:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I suspect Better Grass is still the culprit, in that it probably overwrites the offending code entirely.
20:49:56 <elliott> augur: Less talking, more reading!
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20:51:21 <augur> elliott: it sounds like you want an Alto.
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20:51:50 <elliott> augur: (Even Multics, the big behemoth predating Unix, had a form of orthogonal persistence.)
20:51:50 <augur> also, i agree with everything you said.
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20:52:06 <elliott> augur: And so you should use @!
20:52:07 <zzo38> Has someone told you that TeXnicard is used by writing Underload-like programs? I will tell you now that it is only partially true.
20:52:19 <elliott> augur: My pipe-dream OS of amazingness.
20:52:45 <elliott> augur: It got a remarkably solid design a while ago, which I then completely liquefied by thinking about it some more.
20:52:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: checkboxes!
20:52:57 <zzo38> elliott: Can you use pipes with it?
20:53:23 <augur> elliott: a friend of mine is creating an OS
20:53:25 <augur> or is mulling it over
20:53:33 <zzo38> elliott: Then why did you call it pipe-dream OS? And how can it be used without pipes?
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20:53:37 <elliott> augur: It's probably shit. @ has features such as being awesome, which is the opposite of the feature of being shit.
20:53:48 <augur> ive been pushing for a completely radical rethinking of how it should work
20:53:49 <elliott> zzo38: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:pipe-dream
20:54:04 <elliott> augur: @ is what happens when you radically rethink radical rethinking.
20:54:07 <augur> basically where everything is data-oriented instead of application oriented
20:54:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is important which animated box you ticked.
20:54:16 <elliott> augur: @ had that from version 0.1...
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20:54:29 <elliott> @ is INSIDE THE CARDBOARD COMPRISING THE BOX
20:54:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But not water? Hmm.
20:54:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How are you sure that mipmapping still functions?
20:54:47 <augur> elliott: what language are you writing it in?
20:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, because things in the distance look nice.
20:55:16 <elliott> augur: @lang. (I'm not kidding. Both @ and @lang are, of course, placeholder names; @ has also gone by ElliottOS in the past in here.)
20:55:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could just be blind.
20:55:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, I'll retry in a minute...
20:55:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I still suspect Better Grass, though.
20:55:31 <zzo38> I like to have many commands acting like filters so that you can use pipes for everything.
20:55:40 <augur> elliott: whats @lang like
20:56:08 <elliott> augur: Imagine if Haskell decided to stop being practical and became completely and utterly hardcore, thus ensuring it could never reasonably interact with existing systems.
20:56:30 <augur> i thought haskell WASNT practical :(
20:56:38 <elliott> augur: @ itself is actually written in two languages: x86-64 assembly, and @lang.
20:56:59 <elliott> augur: The assembly includes an efficient, parallel lazy specialiser for @lang (WARNING WARNING OPEN RESEARCH TOPIC WARNING).
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20:57:05 <elliott> augur: This comprises the implementation of @lang.
20:57:18 <elliott> augur: It also has task switching code and the security system.
20:57:27 <elliott> augur: Everything above that, including just about all hardware drivers, are written in @lang.
20:57:45 <elliott> Indeed, in @lang, you can write to any memory address you want, so long as you have permission to.
20:58:02 <elliott> (Of course, you are unlikely to get such blanket permission; drivers will get permission to write to restricted regions of memory if they require it, but little else.)
20:58:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How much convincing do you need to redo it all without Better Grass to see if that's the cure?
20:59:07 <elliott> augur: You seem like you have lost interest!
20:59:35 <elliott> augur: Was it "OPEN RESEARCH TOPIC"?
20:59:38 <augur> something other than nothing
20:59:58 <augur> you answered the question.
21:00:17 <elliott> augur: But there are so many INTERESTING DESIGN DECISIONS.
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21:01:26 <elliott> augur: I'm giving you ammo to make your friend redesign their OS here!
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21:03:05 <elliott> augur: Psht, your tagging program is the worst ever, then. :p
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21:06:00 <elliott> augur: I AM DISAPPOINTED IN YOU
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21:07:14 <tswett> If he were not here, this channel would have no properties in common with the channel as it is.
21:07:26 <tswett> Every predicate true of it now would be false, and vice versa.
21:07:53 <elliott> tswett: So if I left, the channel would not exist?
21:08:12 <elliott> careful, you might say something you Kant
21:08:21 -!- acetoline has joined.
21:08:54 <tswett> It would not exist, and the set of people in it would be the complement of the set of people currently in it.
21:09:01 -!- elliott has left (?).
21:09:50 <tswett> Of course, the tunes.org logs still log this channel as it would be if elliott were still here.
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21:10:34 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: you should probably join and then identify, not vice versa.
21:10:47 <tswett> elliott: DUDE THAT WAS AWESOME
21:10:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have a theory. That theory is that mipmapping doesn't work, at all.
21:10:55 <elliott> tswett: How do you know, you weren't here.
21:10:59 <tswett> Everything false was true and vice versa! Except for some things.
21:11:11 <elliott> tswett: Oh wait ... it briefly obeyed the property "is a gigantic space monster that eats everyone".
21:11:12 <tswett> Yes, but the set of people in this channel was equal to {tswett}.
21:11:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It used to! But now it doesn't!
21:11:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, new theory.
21:11:23 <elliott> Mipmapping has to come before McRegion.
21:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, also, I should point out that I have no control over what XChat does.
21:11:45 <elliott> Specify a server password instead.
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21:12:52 <elliott> * Phantom__Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
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21:14:12 <oklopol> does mindmapping have something more to it than categorizing in treeform and being restricted to a small amount of data in nodes?
21:14:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I swear. Mipmapping does nothing.
21:14:25 <oerjan> um why would you want to join before identifying, wouldn't that temporarily reveal the cloak
21:14:30 <oklopol> are you talking about something other than the general concept :D
21:14:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, well NOW it does.
21:14:36 <elliott> oerjan: that's what he currently does
21:14:50 <oklopol> i read that as mindmapping every time
21:15:04 <oklopol> was kinda wondering why you'd be suddenly talking about that
21:15:05 <elliott> oklopol: you know when you look at far away stuff on minecraft... actually you don't since you use tiny
21:15:08 <elliott> but if you've ever used far,
21:15:11 <elliott> and if you move your mouse left to right
21:15:13 <elliott> you can see it warp around
21:15:18 <elliott> because of it scaling the texture down
21:15:18 <oklopol> but i wanted to ask the question so didn't feel like googling for what you might actually mean
21:15:25 <elliott> mipmapping just uses less pixels in the texture the further away it is
21:15:28 <elliott> meaning far-away stuff looks nice
21:15:49 <elliott> (this warping is especially noticeable on the Stairs near spawn on the server)
21:16:04 <oerjan> elliott: was tswett doing that opposite thing when he suggested it, then?
21:16:13 <elliott> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover was suggesting the proper way
21:16:17 <elliott> oerjan: tswett was suggesting the proper way
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21:16:32 <oklopol> is mipmapping the name of this technique, or some tool?
21:16:37 <elliott> oklopol: name of the technique
21:16:46 <oklopol> because i think i've heard the term, maybe it was in that one book i read once
21:16:53 <oklopol> anyway that's kind of an obvious thing to do
21:16:55 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
21:17:02 <elliott> It's not as simple as just activating mip-mapping.
21:17:02 <elliott> Initially it looked really bad because some blocks looked broken.
21:17:02 <elliott> Glass, for instance had black halos and was completely black in the distance.
21:17:02 <elliott> I fixed this by adjusting the alpha testing, so it discards everything with alpha < 0.5 instead of alpha=0.
21:17:02 <elliott> what remains is that glass almost disappears in the distance.
21:17:06 <elliott> Then, water had a purple shade in the distance.
21:17:08 <elliott> The fix for that is somewhat of a compromise: I clamp the mipmapping level so there's always at least one pixel per texture.
21:17:15 <elliott> oklopol: oh it improves fps too
21:17:39 <fizzie> oklopol: The name is also derived from latin, so the technique is doubly awesome.
21:18:07 <oklopol> it's not really a technique, it's an obvious thing to do
21:18:17 <fizzie> It also eats a bit more texture memory, but, well, nowadays cards seem to have gigabytes of it.
21:18:34 <elliott> fizzie: do you still use tronic
21:18:39 <elliott> okIn 3D computer graphics texture filtering, MIP maps (also mipmaps) are pre-calculated, optimized collections of images that accompany a main texture, intended to increase rendering speed and reduce aliasing artifacts. They are widely used in 3D computer games, flight simulators and other 3D imaging systems. The technique is known as mipmapping. The letters "MIP" in the name are an acronym of the Latin phrase multum in parvo, meaning "much in a
21:18:39 <elliott> small space". Mipmaps need more space in memory. They also form the basis of wavelet compression.
21:18:40 <elliott> oklopol: In 3D computer graphics texture filtering, MIP maps (also mipmaps) are pre-calculated, optimized collections of images that accompany a main texture, intended to increase rendering speed and reduce aliasing artifacts. They are widely used in 3D computer games, flight simulators and other 3D imaging systems. The technique is known as mipmapping. The letters "MIP" in the name are an acronym of the Latin phrase multum in parvo, meaning "muc
21:18:41 <elliott> h in a small space". Mipmaps need more space in memory. They also form the basis of wavelet compression.
21:18:50 <elliott> MUCH IN A SMALL SPACE MAPS
21:18:55 <oklopol> i was thinking i'd pay a couple thousand for a computer in february, SO I NEVER HAVE TO BUY A NEW ONE AGAIN
21:19:01 <oklopol> i hope there isn't a flaw in my logic
21:19:08 <fizzie> About gigabytes, or about it using more?
21:19:14 <oerjan> elliott: <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: you should probably join and then identify, not vice versa.
21:19:15 <elliott> oklopol: i can get parts for you, i'm GOOD at that!
21:19:23 <elliott> oklopol: i didn't do it for Phantom_Hoover because his budget was lame
21:19:27 <oklopol> i'm already paying a friend to do that
21:19:27 <elliott> but a couple thousand euros i could do a lot with
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21:19:35 <elliott> but i'll do it for free, and am more awesome?
21:19:43 <elliott> you're killing small businesses
21:19:49 <elliott> or is it working for free that's killing us
21:20:35 <fizzie> elliott: I haven't tried MC post the 1.2 update at all; so I'm not sure how to answer. Theoretically speaking "yes, I'm still using Tronic"; but on the other hand the updater will wipe that, so maybe "no" is closer.
21:21:01 <elliott> fizzie: Well, only very few packs are updated for the beta, but yeah that was what I meant (are you using it as of last time you played).
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21:21:36 <elliott> "Information wants to be free!" -- obnoxious. slogan.
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21:22:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, hypothesis. Mipmapping only works the first time you load a world.
21:22:11 <oerjan> elliott: he _was_ talking about predicates reversing truth value at about the same time though
21:22:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This theory holds up so far.
21:22:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ADDITIONAL FACT: Side-grass only looks weird in some biomes.
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21:23:03 <elliott> Travel to another, I bet you'll see the tinting.
21:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, why is it that mipmapping makes ladders white?
21:23:37 <elliott> Anyway, canya travel to another biome for me?
21:23:56 <elliott> Or even just compare grass block above dirt block.
21:23:59 <elliott> The dirt will *not* be the same colour.
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21:27:36 <elliott> I blame Better Grass and holy shit whatever that four-block thing is, it is hideous, is that cobble?
21:28:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your 1/1-side-grass is seemingly not mip mapped.
21:28:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Look at the side grass in the distance.
21:28:42 <elliott> Compare with the top grass.
21:28:46 <elliott> Ho ho. Better Grass does indeed fix things.
21:29:29 <elliott> The side of grass blocks aren't.
21:32:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Views like this make me want biome-compliant grass working properly on the side. Badly. http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
21:33:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover exploded from the pretty.
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21:35:10 <elliott> fizzie: You get to appreciate it, then: http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
21:38:57 <elliott> fizzie: How much is it bothering you that I didn't pick up the pumpkins beforehand?
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21:48:43 <elliott> fizzie: Can you please please please get ineiros to the requisite level of drunkenness to update to the stock beta server tonight?
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21:50:37 <fizzie> elliott: I was supposed to, on Friday, but he went and got some sort of a flu thing and was too feverish for that.
21:50:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I just can't stop taking screenshots... http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Yg This is how Minecraft should come by default.
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21:50:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Fast, CPU-friendly, and absurdly pretty.
21:51:15 <elliott> Now we just need shader-powered colour light, like in that beautiful screenshot of the unreleased shader with red redstone torch light...
21:51:21 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Well, it can't be perfect.
21:51:29 <elliott> But I definitely couldn't play with all these fancy mods seamlessly before.
21:51:51 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717
21:51:54 <elliott> j-invariant: and also install mcregion:
21:51:58 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160
21:52:09 <elliott> j-invariant: (updates will make your saves inaccessible but there's a conversion tool so you can use them)
21:52:18 <elliott> j-invariant: those graphics are what me and Phantom__Hoover just got working basically :P
21:52:27 <elliott> j-invariant: how good is your gpu/cpu?
21:52:33 <elliott> j-invariant: do you play on Far/Fancy?
21:52:53 <elliott> j-invariant: can you do Far/Fancy without your computer lagging?
21:52:57 <elliott> failing that, Normal/Fancy?
21:53:15 <elliott> if you can't play Normal/Fancy smoothly, it's very unlikely you'll be able to get all these mods working smoothly, even with optimine and mcregion
21:53:25 <elliott> although mipmapping helps a bit
21:54:22 <elliott> j-invariant: basically: Install Optimine; install McRegion; install mipmapping; install Better Light and Better Grass; use mcpatcher on a customised Painterly Pack, check Custom Water, Animated Lava and Animated Fire, decheck the rest. If you have problems with any step in this just ask me for help. :p
21:54:45 <elliott> I have to say, it's well worth it.
21:55:05 <elliott> Also playing fullscreened helps for prettiness. :p
21:55:20 <elliott> j-invariant: the checkboxes in mcpatcher are very unintuitive btw but those are the options you want
21:57:43 <ineiros> elliott: Might update in the morning.
21:58:00 <elliott> ineiros: It's very, very early morning!
21:58:11 <elliott> ineiros: BTW, after this last hMod release, there'll be no more.
21:58:30 <elliott> It's all going to the "super-fancy" vapourware pre-pre-pre-alpha Bukkit.
21:58:38 <fizzie> It's past midnight here, so it qualifies as a morning.
21:58:46 <elliott> You should update RIGHT NOW
21:59:05 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Problem solved. Starting a world in full-screen doesn't do mipmapping. Seriously.
22:00:43 <elliott> TED talks overstep my upsettingly-short attention span.
22:02:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: 50-60 fps standing still, 30-40 fps moving. Booyah.
22:03:01 <Phantom__Hoover> TL;DR: it takes the best part of human civilisation as it presently stands to make a toaster.
22:03:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Wait. You don't use view bobbing, do you?
22:03:42 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I watched that video. Awesome.
22:03:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: ... how do you live with yourself?
22:04:09 <Phantom__Hoover> It looks so mechanical when you just glide over the ground.
22:06:40 -!- Behold has joined.
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22:09:18 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: 16 PUMPKINS IN ONE FIELD
22:11:02 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:11:28 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:11:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I'm trying out a new playstyle.
22:11:36 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
22:11:50 <zzo38> Hopefully now it will not disconnect due to server problem.
22:12:15 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I spend my time in the ocean, searching out new lands; in the day, I land on them, take useful materials, and sail on.
22:12:40 <zzo38> elliott: Do you mean, you steal them?
22:13:08 <zzo38> Steal the materials.
22:13:18 <elliott> zzo38: Nobody has laid claim to them, so how can it be stealing?
22:13:41 <zzo38> elliott: Are you sure?
22:14:07 <elliott> zzo38: There are no houses, or indeed any signs of building, or any change to the landscape at all; no signs; nothing.
22:14:19 <elliott> So if someone has laid claim to them, they haven't exactly made it explicit.
22:14:21 <zzo38> And what kind of materials are they?
22:14:33 <elliott> Wood from trees. Coal. Iron. Stone.
22:15:07 <zzo38> Well, don't steal too much of them, otherwise it will become empty and the trees and stuff can be important.
22:15:20 <elliott> zzo38: I replant the saplings from the trees so that more grow.
22:15:48 <zzo38> elliott: OK. But please do not cut *all* the trees at once, at least!!
22:22:12 <zzo38> impomatic: I have not. I do not know what that is.
22:22:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1: Good lord. Spiders can swim. I only hope that my boat can outrun these abominable creatures. There is wonderful land to the side of me, but I cannot stop now; there will be others like it, I am sure. For now, I approach morning ... as fast as my boat will take me.
22:22:26 <elliott> OH MAN THIS IS SO CHEESY I LOVE IT
22:23:19 <impomatic> zzo38: it's some kind of programming game with robotic insects and 3d graphics, I don't know much about it - http://programminggames.org/AIWars-The-Insect-Mind.ashx
22:23:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum: A perfectly square hole in the world, down to lands of lava and void. What hath God wrought upon this sea? Have I tread into curséd waters?
22:24:15 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: btw that toaster thing is exactly what i meant by this being an utterly uninteresting world, it takes a fuckload of work to make it interesting!
22:24:30 <oklopol> but i suppose that work has been done already, so maybe i should complain less
22:25:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 2: There are beasts frozen in a permanent expression of horror, made out of unearthly materials, stalking me silently. I am losing my faith.
22:27:06 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 3: A forest alight. If the unholy creatures did not dwell nearby, I would inspect. Perhaps they did this. There is no land ahead of me that I can see.
22:30:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 4: Never so fast have I tried to eliminate dirt as when I saw I was careering towards it. I did not get out; I knew the skeletal archers must have been watching me intently. But now my boat is a pile of wood and I am alone in the night. I am not even sure I have the wood to repair it.
22:32:26 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 5: I hastily built a workbench and my boat again; thank God I had the materials. And I even managed to remove my workbench, but as I removed the few remaining blocks of dirt to allow me to pass them with the possibility of return if, as I suspect, it was a dead end, a zombie appeared next to me, after slinking up unnoticed. My boat is in the water but I am not in it, and I fear that the zombie wil
22:32:26 <elliott> l soon decimate my health. I am at a loss.
22:33:19 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.universetoday.com/20671/ion-shield-for-interplanetary-spaceships-now-a-reality/
22:33:36 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: EXCUSE ME I REQUIRE ADVICE?
22:33:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: "The USS Enterprise has many uses for its deflector shields, including repelling the Borg (Paramount Pictures)"
22:34:48 <Phantom__Hoover> I can kill a few when I murder Sgeo's father and stepmother.
22:35:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night, addendum 6: Braaaiiiins. Braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins... everything is so much better now... braaaaiins... the sea restricts movement, it is no place I want to be ... all I desire ... is FLESH...
22:35:34 <elliott> nooga: A zombie killed me while I played a mariner.
22:36:54 <elliott> j-invariant: yes, you can rely on haskell's arithmetic procedures working
22:36:59 <elliott> even if they're not proven :D
22:37:09 <nooga> #esoteric: bunch of smart computer wizzards playing with blocks like small boys + some audience
22:37:29 <elliott> nooga: you forgot the small boy playing with blocks like a small boy
22:38:03 <elliott> nooga: bought the damn game yet? I need slaves.
22:38:45 <nooga> no, i'm busy finding this lapis
22:40:41 <nooga> elliott: just make some TNT and use it for digging
22:40:52 <elliott> nooga: we already have shitloads of TNT
22:40:55 <elliott> the problem is, it's not nearly enough
22:40:59 <elliott> we've used up almost 9 stacks
22:41:10 <elliott> nooga: and it's still only a tiny, tiny corner
22:41:12 <elliott> that isn't even all down to bedrock
22:41:18 <elliott> also, we need help draining, too
22:41:57 <oklopol> by nine stacks, sure you mean 9 boxes? i have at least a big box full of 9 boxes of exploded tnt
22:42:26 <elliott> yeah cuz you can stack boxes
22:42:40 <oklopol> when you say stack boxes, surely you mean box boxes
22:42:47 <elliott> actually it would be nice if you could put chests in chests... not chests in inventory obviously
22:42:52 <elliott> but chests in chests, nested only one level
22:42:56 <elliott> a one-chest storage solution for life
22:43:15 <oklopol> you should be able to make a backpack
22:43:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: _with items_
22:43:24 <oklopol> that lets you store more stuff
22:43:27 <elliott> so one 64-stack of chests is as good as 64 chests
22:43:27 <oklopol> the inventory is smallllllll
22:43:33 <olsner> <oklopol> you should be able to make a backpack with a scrollbar
22:43:36 <elliott> and one large chest of 64-stacks of chests could store EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE
22:43:58 <elliott> oklopol: what i would really like to see is the held-item bar being redesigned.
22:44:09 <elliott> oklopol: there you should just be four rows of inventory, and at the end of each row, scrolling past gives you the next one
22:44:11 <oklopol> surely you mean it could sore a big box full of universes?
22:44:18 <elliott> so you don't have to fucking drag things down and up all the time
22:45:33 <oklopol> i'm trying to respond but i'm not sure what to surely-you-mean
22:46:11 <elliott> oklopol: surely you mean you should be able to scroll through the contents of infinite universes in the bottom bar
22:46:29 <oklopol> by bottom bar, surely you mean a big box of bottom bars?
22:46:53 <oklopol> i have at least 3 big boxes of bottom bars in my base
22:46:54 <elliott> maybe the inventory should just be displayed in a sidebar
22:47:08 <elliott> and you enter two digits, row then col, to select an item
22:47:21 <elliott> also it'd have the 2x2 crafting there
22:48:26 <oklopol> i'd like mc more if instead of objects, you'd have big boxes full of objects, like you know use the chest icon as the icon of every object and name object x "a bix bog of x's"
22:48:55 <elliott> oklopol: or you could just make stacks go up to 1728
22:49:11 <elliott> oklopol: 3456 (omg that's ASCENDING)
22:49:14 <elliott> 3, 4, 5, 6 ?!£NRjhkflghvmkjg
22:49:15 <oklopol> LOL, small chest... surely you mean a bix box of small chests
22:49:27 <elliott> bix box, is that like weetabix
22:49:52 <oklopol> i of course meant a big box of bix boxes.
22:50:16 <Ilari> Heh... "New" indications on IETF I-Ds are based on date. That resulted obsolete version of I-D having "new" indiction.
22:50:42 <elliott> oklopol: ah, so infinite storage?
22:50:42 <oklopol> Ilari: surely you mean it's based on a big box of dates?
22:50:52 <oklopol> i should stop this before it stops being funny
22:51:02 <elliott> oklopol: you're actually a big box of oklopols, right?
22:51:07 <oklopol> not really a danger of that anytime soon
22:51:12 <oklopol> but you know, in a couple of days
22:51:57 <oklopol> elliott: by a big box of oklopols, surely you mean a big box of big boxes of oklopols? i have like 5 big boxes of big boxes of oklopols in my base
22:52:06 <elliott> oklopol: friendly word of advice
22:52:10 <elliott> oklopol: DEAR GOD NEVER LET THEM ESCAPE
22:52:31 <oklopol> i should certainly not let them escape
22:52:35 <oklopol> but can i ask you something?
22:52:44 <oklopol> when you say friendly word of advice
22:52:54 <oklopol> surely you mean a big box of friendly words of advice?
22:53:06 <oklopol> i have like 7 big boxes of friendly words of advice in my base.
22:53:14 <elliott> whole big boxes of books of advice.
22:53:22 <oklopol> by whole books of advice, i should probably go to sleep
22:53:59 <elliott> oklopol: what do you call it when you start a new world, walk around for most of the day, take in the sights, explore tons, build something small, die much much later, respawn, and find out that you built that thing at spawn?
22:54:05 <elliott> i can't walk in straight lines :D
22:54:42 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/29876/ THEY'VE FOUND OUR SECRET
22:55:30 <oklopol> elliott: you call that the circle of life
22:55:32 <elliott> Gregor: I don't remember anything about ear juice in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.
22:55:48 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
22:55:58 <elliott> ugliest box ever? with the logo at both sides, flipped on one
22:55:59 <Gregor> elliott: That's because we'd kept it a secret even through then, but now the damned Chinese have found it!
22:56:17 <elliott> seriously, every time i go to wp i'm like "wait this isn't wp, what the fuck is that logo"
22:56:53 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: the filename is best though
22:56:56 <elliott> File:Jimmy Wales Fundraiser Appeal edit.jpg
22:57:22 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: I doubt it :P
22:57:33 <Phantom__Hoover> Is Jew's ear Juice juice squeezed from a Jew's ear or juice that Jews pour into their ears?
22:57:51 <Gregor> Oh good. Then they still don't REALLY know the secret.
22:57:59 <oklopol> wales must really like his face
22:58:00 <elliott> Ear juice back and forth, forever.
22:58:05 <elliott> oklopol: it's so beautiful
22:58:33 <elliott> You know what the most useful thing about the NVIDIA X Server Settings is?
22:58:33 <oklopol> well it is a loveable face, if that guy tried to sell me a vacuum cleaner, i'd buy the hell out of it
22:58:42 <elliott> It lets you enable a cursor shadow!
22:58:47 <elliott> That's the one thing I missed from Windows.
22:59:19 <Phantom__Hoover> <oklopol> wales must really like his face ← naw, it doesn't look like a sheep's at all.
22:59:39 <Ilari> Heck... I think IANA IPv4 depletion will be all over the net (and not just reedit).
22:59:41 <oklopol> LOL i get the reference :DDDDDDDDDDDDDd
23:00:02 <Ilari> At least every blog related to IPv6 or IPv4 depletion.
23:00:24 <oklopol> is it some sort of sports thing
23:01:07 <elliott> fizzie: can you not download mc skins??
23:01:11 <oklopol> ages ago, i decided i'd add something to all this ipv4 humble and jumble that's been going around on the channel
23:01:17 <elliott> what's the path to the png file?
23:02:25 <oklopol> no, this lattice is not complete
23:03:19 <Ilari> Of the two major IPv4 depletion estimates, the more pessimistic one is now in "any moment now" mode. The another gives less than a month left...
23:03:44 <elliott> Ilari: how long until RIR depletion?
23:05:06 <oklopol> i wonder how long it would take to make an ipv4 protocol from scratch
23:05:12 -!- MrPhone has joined.
23:05:44 <oklopol> maybe i should do a ted talk on that
23:06:17 <MrPhone> This is variable; curious does have any (good) graphics libraries?
23:06:21 <Ilari> That's difficult to estimate. Especially due publicity from IANA depletion... I hope that one graph I saw was misleading due to incorrect data processing...
23:07:00 <Phantom__Hoover> We have that non-Euclidean raytracer which I have not been working on solidly for about 6 months.
23:07:44 <elliott> MrPhone: There's an SDL binding.
23:07:44 <Ilari> Non-Euclidean? Elliptic and Hyperbolic geometries? Or just General Relativity?
23:08:00 <MrPhone> Does haskell have something like tk or gtk?
23:08:14 <elliott> MrPhone: gtk2hs is a binding to gtk.
23:08:26 <elliott> MrPhone: There's also Qt, I think... and Cocoa
23:08:36 <Phantom__Hoover> And I don't even understand what the objects half of GR's equations rely on are so...
23:08:39 <elliott> MrPhone: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html
23:08:44 <elliott> MrPhone: Look at the categories :)
23:08:57 <elliott> MrPhone: But what you want is a GUI toolkit, not a graphics library.
23:09:18 <elliott> MrPhone: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Gtk2Hs Gtk2Hs is your best bet.
23:09:27 <elliott> MrPhone: It's widely-used, well-maintained, and I gather has a decent API.
23:09:31 <MrPhone> Will look later -on phone now due to busted internet
23:09:59 <elliott> Of course it's not "perfect" as its use is mostly imperative/object oriented since Gtk is, but hey, it's not like you'd write all of your program in IO anyway.
23:09:59 <Phantom__Hoover> Ilari, FWIW, I was kind of hoping that I'd be able to get it to do hyperbolic and elliptical geometries and maybe if thins turned out really well some arbitrary manifolds.
23:10:07 <MrPhone> And thanks for the reference
23:10:13 <elliott> There are some experimental projects to do purely-functional GUIs, but they're not really mature enough to use in practice.
23:10:27 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: fizzie: I have a new skin and it's even more beautiful than my last one: http://minecraft.net/skin/skin.jsp?user=ehird
23:10:31 <Ilari> Oh yeah, GR includes SR and SR is dynamic.
23:11:13 <elliott> j-invariant: did you get those mods installed?
23:11:19 <Phantom__Hoover> I fell at the first stumbling block of not actually understanding how geodesic rays are calculated.
23:11:27 <elliott> j-invariant: aw, did you not bother or was there a problem
23:11:46 <fizzie> elliott: Very rainbowy. (And yes, the URLs the client prints out don't seem to work for any old web browser; I don't know if it's about request headers or something.)
23:11:55 <elliott> fizzie: Worked for me, I just wgetted it.
23:11:56 <MrPhone> Elliott - no tab completion
23:12:02 <elliott> j-invariant: you have no java plugin :P
23:12:16 <elliott> j-invariant: preview: http://minecraft.net/skin/ehird.png
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23:12:50 <elliott> fizzie: Did you see how Notch is offering pirated versions of Minecraft due to his own incompetence?
23:14:05 <elliott> You know, variable has been converted to the Functional Order rather well.
23:16:46 <Sgeo> I could be in a better mood right now
23:16:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Did KT AT not show up *again*?
23:17:11 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: No, I convinced him to learn Haskell.
23:17:17 <Sgeo> But my happiness is pretty much entirely eclipsed by a belief she holds
23:17:39 <elliott> don't even joke about that
23:17:49 <Sgeo> elliott, none of those are potentially lethal [I started typing this before you mentioned homeopathy]
23:18:14 <fizzie> A real-life breatharianist would be the awesome.
23:18:19 <elliott> fizzie: They do exist, you know.
23:18:19 <fizzie> elliott: No, I didn't.
23:18:25 <Sgeo> That Vitamin C can essentially cure cancer, and chemotherapy is essentially vitamin C.
23:18:34 <elliott> You dodged a bullet, my friend.
23:18:44 <Sgeo> And this is the LAST person I'd expect to hold such a belief
23:18:57 * elliott notes to self: never let Phantom__Hoover near anyone I love.
23:19:03 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: hey don't dis that, Dick Lipton believes P=NP. maybe.
23:19:20 <elliott> fizzie: The client downloads minecraft.jar?auth=...&..., but you can actually just elide the ? and everything after and it lets you download it.
23:19:31 <elliott> fizzie: Notch quality protection.
23:19:34 <j-invariant> people actually beleive P=NP? not just to be contrary?
23:19:35 <Sgeo> Shortly after I met her, I was _convinced_ that she wouldn't hold such a belief
23:19:36 <elliott> I can't wait for the Mojang condom.
23:19:45 <elliott> j-invariant: Dick Lipton :-P
23:20:13 <elliott> Sgeo: There are plenty of females in the universe ... and most of them don't even believe that Vitamin C causes cancer.
23:20:22 <Sgeo> elliott, you read what I said wrong
23:20:26 <Sgeo> Or you mistyped
23:20:29 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm saying that it isn't a big deal :P
23:20:39 <elliott> Sgeo: But I am kind of upset, because now I have to start preparing another silly name...
23:20:57 <Sgeo> The thing is, you wouldn't expect a cancer survivor to hold such a belief
23:21:36 <elliott> She probably shoots people for fun.
23:21:52 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: the "maybe" is part of his belief, though.
23:22:13 <Vorpal> <fizzie> A real-life breatharianist would be the awesome. <-- what do they believe?
23:22:16 <elliott> Sgeo: So, so, wait, what cured her -- did she drink a lot of orange juice and it cleared itself up?
23:22:27 <elliott> Or was it, uh, lots of medical expertise and chemotherapy?
23:22:42 <Sgeo> She got chemo. She's not against regular medicine
23:22:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: hey maybe she's the reincarnation of Linus Pauling. that would be cool. sort of.
23:22:56 <elliott> Sgeo: But seriously, SHE BELIEVES CHEMOTHERAPY IS BASICALLY VITAMIN C?
23:23:30 <Phantom__Hoover> Did you point out to her that vitamin C doesn't make you bald?
23:23:39 <elliott> Just nobody's taken enough yet.
23:23:45 <elliott> Chemotherapy results in LOTS of Vitamin C.
23:23:58 <Sgeo> She believes that vitamin C is free of side-effects
23:24:03 <Sgeo> And thus is better than chemo
23:24:06 <elliott> Sgeo: So it doesn't cure cancer?
23:24:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: That you can survive without eating; the justifications vary, sometimes you get things from the air by breathing, other times from the sunlight.
23:24:17 <elliott> "Oh god, I was drinking this orange juice and the most horrible thing happened... my cancer got cured!"
23:24:31 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: No, you see, only radiation Vitamin C causes hair falling out.
23:24:34 <Sgeo> I think she was cured of her cancer before she formed this belief
23:24:36 <elliott> Regular Vitamin C is better, because it doesn't.
23:24:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, real life ones would be rather short lived
23:24:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: One of 'em took the Randi test, and was found sneaking into McDonald's around 04am, IIRC. But he said he just went there to breath in the nutrients.
23:25:07 <fizzie> Or maybe it was just some generic test and Randi reported it in the blog.
23:25:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:25:20 <fizzie> (I think he has a standing rule of not testing that sort of silliness.)
23:25:38 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's pure Vitamin C-enriched uranium.
23:25:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: James Randi, a noted skeptic.
23:26:06 <elliott> Vorpal doesn't know who Randi is? lol.
23:26:09 <fizzie> (And a stage magician.)
23:26:31 <elliott> fizzie: There was one where they first did it in a city, deteriorated; "yeah well the air isn't pure enough!"; did it in the beautiful countryside, condition deteriorated, testers said fuck it, and cancelled it.
23:26:56 -!- impomatic has left (?).
23:26:58 <elliott> fizzie: But yeah, another famous breatharianist has been found ordering meals on planes and such.
23:27:02 <fizzie> j-invariant: "James Randi James Randi has an international reputation as a magician and escape artist --", directly from randi.org; I'm pretty sure he's called it magic too.
23:27:34 <elliott> A magician is an illusionist; a magician does magic tricks; magic tricks are illusions; a magician does not do magic, but "magic" is a common abbreviation for magic tricks.
23:27:41 <elliott> So really it's fine to say he does magic, because it's an abbreviation in context.
23:27:46 <Phantom__Hoover> 01:29:13 * Sgeo decides not to state his sexual wishes in the channel
23:27:59 <elliott> But what are your sexual wishes Sgeo? We need to know!
23:29:39 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: impossible. blood is not kosher!
23:31:34 <Phantom__Hoover> Clearly this is why his stepmother didn't want him seeing non-Jewish girls.
23:31:49 <oerjan> it all makes sense now!
23:33:57 <elliott> does anyone have that archive of the frappr, just realised i lost mine
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23:34:53 <Gregor> http://www.stewarthomesociety.org/images/gallery/necrocard.jpg lawlwtf
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23:36:13 <elliott> Gregor: that was actually made by some i think performance artist who actually carries it
23:36:17 <elliott> not that it holds any legal weight of course :)
23:40:58 <oklopol> i'd rather have sex after my death than be eaten by worms
23:41:35 <zzo38> I would rather not be buried when I am dead
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23:43:01 <zzo38> I also would rather not funeral for when I am dead
23:44:23 <Sgeo> I would rather not die\
23:45:32 <elliott> yeah eral is latin for not at all
23:47:20 <Gregor> Dingus Maximus died. Well that's fun eral.
23:47:46 <oklopol> i just got what elliott meant by that
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23:48:20 <Gregor> oklopol: /nick oklodurp
23:48:48 <Phantom__Hoover> <Sgeo> I would rather not die\ ← UNTIL YOU BECOME SENESCENT AND ARE PHAGOCYTOSED BY A SEXY MACROPHAGE
23:48:56 <cheater-> +quote <oklopol> I'M ACTUALLY BBER SMART
23:48:56 <Gregor> Bieber Smart? That doesn't sound very smart at all ...
23:50:47 <elliott> j-invariant: Could not deduce (Peano n) from the context (Peano (S n))
23:51:08 <oklopol> there was some other justin
23:51:16 <oklopol> i guess there could be two famous justins
23:51:41 <oklopol> that's like some famous programmer or what
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23:51:54 <elliott> j-invariant: i should probably do it as a type family
23:52:12 <oklopol> bieber is a singer i think
23:52:20 <oklopol> and has a really high voice?
23:52:48 <oklopol> i read this in a youtube comment i think
23:53:54 <oklopol> YOU SAY JUSTIN BIEBER, I SAY METAL BAND #1; YOU SAY SPICE GIRLS, I SAY METAL BAND #2; etc.
23:54:06 <oklopol> i have to conclude people who listen to metal are retarded
23:54:56 <oklopol> You say? Justin Bieber,I say PARAMORE!!! You say Lady Gaga,I say Evanescence You say Miley Cyrus,I say Slipknot You say? T-Pain,I say Three Days Grace You say Emenem,I say Linkin Park You say Jonas Brother,Isay Green Day
23:54:58 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, the correct deduction is "people who comment on music videos on YouTube are retarded."
23:55:16 <oklopol> 92% of teens have turned to pop and hip-hop.If? you are part of the? 8% that still listens to real music, copy and paste this message to 5 other videos.? DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF ROCK AND ROLL DIE!!!!!!!
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23:55:56 <oklopol> are you sure it wins the actual content in stupidity?
23:56:04 <oklopol> i mean, they actually DO copy paste that around :D
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23:58:29 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, I'm not a murderer, and I still like her
23:58:42 <Sgeo> Just... am fearful for her safety
23:59:11 <Sgeo> I would not stab someone who believes that they are immortal, either
23:59:12 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: did you suggest he kill her or what?
23:59:40 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, I suggested he put benzene in her perfume in order to demonstrate that vitamin C does not, in fact, cure cancer.