00:00:09 <elliott> oerjan: C kind of lets you pop things too.
00:02:45 <oerjan> (*::C):C if you want some infinite growth
00:04:55 <elliott> oerjan: ok now write a brainfuck interpreter! with input!
00:05:29 <elliott> oerjan: if it's turing complete it's possible obviously because it means it can do anything my computer can do.
00:06:04 <elliott> then why is your name mr. stupid?
00:06:11 <oerjan> SOMETIMES OPPOSITE THINGS
00:07:23 <elliott> `addquote BLAST FROM THE PAST: <oerjan> my name is obviously Oerja Nilsson. Sorry for fooling you all about my gender so long. <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, sounds Scandinavian
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00:08:00 <oerjan> i may have also mentioned that Ørja is a place name
00:08:19 <elliott> oerjan: btw spot something you and Vorpal have in common on this page for a prize (hint: Flash): http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/kakadu/ (as for why I've even loaded that page, it seems that my bored web browsing has adopted the TV Tropes Model)
00:08:26 <HackEgo> 311) BLAST FROM THE PAST: <oerjan> my name is obviously Oerja Nilsson. Sorry for fooling you all about my gender so long. <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, sounds Scandinavian
00:08:34 <elliott> (i.e. read page, open every link in a new tab, close tab, repeat)
00:08:51 <elliott> oerjan: caught me off guard when i saw it though :D
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00:10:30 <oerjan> i assume you are referring to DMM
00:10:45 <elliott> oerjan: well I can't imagine you and Vorpal have _two_ things in common
00:12:10 <elliott> hey since when does DMM have a blog :D
00:12:16 <oerjan> ok i thought a little bit more about :()C and it's definitely not TC: you can _never_ get below the top stack element
00:13:05 <elliott> oerjan: what pace do you recommend i archive-binge iwc btw? i've been meaning to.
00:13:24 <elliott> my usual strategy is "a hundred comics a day". that might get... tiring.
00:13:25 * oerjan hasn't used archive binge
00:13:30 <elliott> i mean it in the usual sense
00:13:44 <elliott> which is what the site is named after. obviously.
00:14:03 <oerjan> you _do_ know Archive Binge is also on the iwc site
00:14:23 <elliott> oerjan: yes. but. i am a manual man.
00:14:58 <elliott> 15:23:04 <AnMaster> (hm what is a "mad science webcomic"?)
00:14:58 <elliott> 15:23:14 * AnMaster just reads user friendly
00:14:58 <elliott> 15:23:28 <AnMaster> for the last 5 years or so
00:15:08 <oerjan> it's been a while since i binged web comics, but i tend to recall it as including ignoring sleep even more than usual for a few days
00:15:09 <elliott> every time I get mad at Vorpal I'm just going to read some old logs and be thankful that AnMaster died
00:15:57 <elliott> 15:26:41 <AnMaster> EhirD`, what? I use tor when I browse
00:15:57 <elliott> wonder if that's still true
00:20:24 <Ilari> Various leftovers going to APNIC: 139, 140, 144, 150, 153, 157, 163, 171.
00:24:02 <Ilari> Latest update: 26 778 624 addresses total available there.
00:26:01 <Ilari> That's about 0.60 blocks after substracting 1, which means APNIC has total of something like 4.23 blocks left until final /8 policy is triggered.
00:26:51 <Ilari> Last 2 weeks, APNIC has blown through 0.5 blocks.
00:30:28 <Sgeo> I should probably, like, probably, do some, like, Statistics homework
00:38:51 <oerjan> with high probability indeed.
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00:46:10 <Ilari> Heh. There are servers that exist just for AXFR of '.' and some other zones, such as 'in-addr.arpa' and 'ip6.arpa'.
01:00:09 <elliott> Argh, why is Xfce so good in most aspects and then so annoyingly bad in a few really important places.
01:06:32 <elliott> Deewiant: So what operation did you end up using :P
01:06:49 <elliott> :t \f -> (f `flip` x) `flip` y
01:06:50 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) b. (Functor f) => f (Expr -> Expr -> b) -> f b
01:07:39 <elliott> yay, that indeed does the right thing
01:08:20 <elliott> > let (◻) = flip in (f ◻ x ◻ y) a b
01:08:21 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
01:08:26 <elliott> > let (◻) = flip in (f ◻ x ◻ y) a b :: Expr
01:08:34 <elliott> wow, that actually works :D
01:10:31 <elliott> that square is a bit ugly though.
01:10:46 <elliott> > let (◌) = flip in (f ◌ x ◌ y) a b :: Expr
01:10:50 <elliott> oerjan: PLEASE FILL IN THE BLANKS
01:11:02 <elliott> > let (◌) = flip in ((f ◌ x ◌ y) ◌) :: Expr
01:11:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
01:11:07 <elliott> > let (◌) = flip in ((f ◌ x ◌ y) ◌)
01:11:08 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> f b)
01:11:11 <elliott> :t let (◌) = flip in ((f ◌ x ◌ y) ◌)
01:11:12 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
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01:21:38 <pikhq_> Dear asexuals of the world: *mention you're asexual before the second date kthx*.
01:22:41 <oerjan> you and Sgeo get a discussion room
01:22:51 <elliott> oerjan: there's an important difference
01:22:52 * Sgeo is not asexual.
01:22:53 <zzo38> How many have a second date without mentioning?
01:22:56 <elliott> i lol'd at what pikhq_ just said
01:23:06 <zzo38> I would not expect it to happen much
01:23:08 <elliott> i never lol at what Sgeo says, i just stare at my irc window sadly
01:23:30 <zzo38> elliott: And what font size is your IRC window supposed to be ???????????????????????????????
01:24:10 <Sgeo> I am lolling at ellipsises
01:26:23 <elliott> Dear Jews of the world: *mention you're Jewish before the second date kthx*.
01:27:14 <Ilari> BTW: First currently actually allocated for use unicast IPv4 address: 1.9.1. For IPv6, that address would be 2001:200::1
01:27:24 <Sgeo> pikhq_, should abstinence-only people mention the abstinence thing before the second date too? When does that sort of thing come out?
01:28:56 <zzo38> Probably they should mention. If they have a second date yes they should mention before second date
01:29:41 <Sgeo> I have some reason to believe KT-AT may be abstinence-only, but I'm not certain
01:32:25 <Ilari> The last addresses are 223.255.251.254 (by APNIC) and 2C0F:FFF8:0010:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF (by AFRINIC). Both of those first addresses were by APNIC.
01:33:50 <elliott> Gregor: Does c2bf still work?
01:35:39 <Ilari> The good/bad thing about abstinence-only people is that if/when they finally "break down", the result could very well be you know what. :-/
01:35:49 -!- iconmaster has left (?).
01:37:26 <Ilari> Or a new birth in about 9 months?
01:38:08 <elliott> Well if you want to be LOGICAL about it.
01:38:18 <elliott> But I'm fairly sure being logical about things is a bannable offence here. oerjan?
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01:39:48 <oerjan> THAT WOULD BE ILLOGICAL
01:39:54 <elliott> WHICH IS WHY IT'S THE POLICY
01:40:58 <zzo38> Did you consider nothing-only people?
01:42:09 <oerjan> I NEVER CONSIDER NOTHING ONLY
01:42:54 <oerjan> curiously, i am not aware of any jewish ancestry
01:43:18 <oerjan> of minorities, sami would be more likely, but i cannot recall hearing about that either
01:43:28 <zzo38> Maybe mention the variant of Underload in the wiki.
01:43:39 <elliott> oerjan hasn't done enough interesting things with it for that yet :D
01:43:59 <Gregor> elliott: C2BF never worked :P
01:44:14 <elliott> Gregor: But I'm reading me writing malloc in it in the logs and you saying that it is NOT AVAILABLE ANYWHERREEE
01:44:30 <Sgeo> Dammitt I wish Amazon was like Google
01:44:41 <Sgeo> I want to search for books with this in the title that were published before 2000
01:44:57 <Sgeo> I know there's plenty of woo books about this subject, but I'm looking for one specific woo book
01:45:57 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/78952/ lollercopters
01:46:21 <Sgeo> Or maybe they changed the title since I've read it
01:46:28 <Sgeo> This chapter list looks very familiar
01:46:36 <Sgeo> I do remember some of the stories
01:47:01 <Sgeo> Including one bit of testimony from a guy who should have won a Darwin award
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01:53:55 <zzo38> How often do you think the "mail" command and "write" command is used in UNIX systems now?
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02:08:37 <Gregor> zzo38: Approximately once every never.
02:09:13 <elliott> i think i used it to bug cpressey once.
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02:11:03 <EgoBot> 139 ++++++++++[>++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>>++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.<++++.>>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [329]
02:11:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Let's just say that having little interest in a romantic relationship is a bit of a dealbreaker for a romantic relationship.
02:11:22 <elliott> pikhq: asexual != aromantic
02:11:29 <pikhq> elliott: She is also aromantic.
02:11:36 <elliott> pikhq: ...and she's... going out on dates?
02:11:41 <elliott> pikhq: Does she just like to torture people?
02:11:52 <pikhq> elliott: I was her first!
02:12:07 <elliott> pikhq: Your last line, it is unparseable.
02:12:17 <pikhq> elliott: I was her first date. Ever.
02:12:32 <elliott> pikhq: Did she figure out in-between the two dates that she was aromantic or something? :-P
02:12:46 <elliott> "This pikhq guy is really gross. I think I'm going to stay away from people. Forever."
02:12:48 <Ilari> !bf_txtgen te3d7pYKTdXVZbUrTpndwNgERsthIWL5
02:12:53 <EgoBot> 306 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++>++++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>-.>>---.<-.>-.<++++.<----.>>>--.<<++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++.>.>-.--.++++.<--.>-----.<<<++.>.<--.--.>>++.<<+++++++++.>>>-------.<+++.>---------.<<--.<----.+.>>+.>++++.<<+++++.>>+++.-----------------------.-------------------------------------------. [836]
02:13:31 <pikhq> Needless to say, this has been a fairly awkward day.
02:13:42 <elliott> pikhq: Condolences on your... awkward :P
02:13:59 <elliott> pikhq: This is why in Europe we just get shamans to arrange our marriages instead of going on dates.
02:14:17 <elliott> While beating sticks and rocks together and wearing insufficient clothing to count as civilised.
02:16:01 <pikhq> The Empire State Building was built with a zeppelin dock.
02:16:18 <pikhq> http://ephemeralnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/empirestatebuilding1.jpg
02:16:37 <elliott> QUICK, SOMEBODY BUY A ZEPPELIN.
02:16:48 <elliott> pikhq: I like how it looks tiny in that picture :P
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02:25:40 <Gregor> You can't get off a Zeppelin from ... the front tip ...
02:25:49 <zzo38> At FreeGeek I use the "mail" command (I even have it in my login script). I also used "write" once there. I also use "dc" there whenever I want to make a quick calculation.
02:26:03 <Gregor> I use dc now and then.
02:26:16 <zzo38> I happen to like dc
02:27:14 <elliott> I use ghci as my calculator :P
02:27:47 <zzo38> They have Ubuntu but I only use the command shell for everything (except Redmine, since that won't work with the command shell). It is often useful to load multiple tabs for the command shell.
02:28:08 <elliott> isn't redmine a bug tracker thing
02:28:37 <zzo38> elliott: Yes it is. That is what they use there for bug tracker and feature tracking.
02:29:15 <elliott> you could use w3m or links in the command shell to access redmine.
02:30:17 <zzo38> The first time you log in requires your name and email. The name is in the account list anyways though, but I still had to fill it in. I filled in "black@yew" for email but it wouldn't accept that so the system administrator told me to add ".shop.lan" afterward and it accepted that. However I don't use the email of that anyways, so it doesn't matter what is typed there.
02:31:17 <zzo38> I also put "echo fortune | nc -q -1 zzo38computer.cjb.net 70" into my login script as well.
02:31:53 <zzo38> They do not have a local copy of "fortune"
02:32:25 <zzo38> What I cannot figure out is how to make it start the Terminal window maximized. Do you know how?
02:32:38 <elliott> you don't need it if you only want to use the shell
02:32:48 <elliott> (up to F6 is generally available)
02:32:53 <elliott> (so you can use multiple terminals)
02:32:58 <elliott> this uses the PC's console
02:33:10 <zzo38> elliott: I cannot do that if I push Ctrl+Alt+F1 I cannot login there. It is LTSP and you cannot login LTSP in that way.
02:34:23 <zzo38> What does work is to login to fg-utility and then install secure shell and connect that way.
02:35:12 <Sgeo> zzo38 clearly attends the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philidelphia
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02:35:25 <Sgeo> augur, zzo38 is Lutheran
02:35:56 <zzo38> fg-utility is loaded from the network and then runs locally with a temporary filesystem.
02:36:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: I am not Lutheran, actually. And I do not attend that seminary either.
02:36:12 <Sgeo> [Note: He is not actually]
02:37:15 <zzo38> elliott: No I am not Lutheran, actually.
02:39:13 <zzo38> True or false: What is the bus driver's name?
02:39:38 -!- zzo38 has set topic: True or false: What is the bus driver's name? | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
02:39:58 <zzo38> Gregor: OK. Where is the bus going?
02:40:51 <Sgeo> And knowing is half the action figure doll!
02:41:26 <zzo38> How can I prove not to be Lutheran?
02:45:56 <zzo38> OK, fine. I am agnostic.
02:46:25 <pikhq> Aaaw, I prefer atheism.
02:46:33 <pikhq> We do prayers to Athe, the God of No God.
02:46:46 <zzo38> pikhq: That is OK. You can be atheism if that is what you like to be.
02:47:02 <pikhq> So much better than Agnos, the God Devoid of All Knowledge.
02:48:19 <zzo38> Some people is atheist and some agnostic, and some more religious people. Even some scientists are religious, which is OK, but you still have to remember, assuming God exists is not how you are supposed to do science!
02:48:57 <elliott> 00:38:30 <ttm> Here's a simple program that outputs 2^(2^65536) bytes. Add another '+' to the start and it will output 2^(2^(2^65536)) bytes, and so on.
02:48:57 <elliott> 00:38:44 <ttm> +++++++[>>+<[>[>+<-]>[<++>-]<<-]>[<+>-]<<-]>[.-]
02:48:57 <elliott> 00:41:07 <ttm> (Naturally, this assumes integer cells as in ihope's challenge. And it's way too tidy to be the best answer for this length.)
02:49:05 <elliott> we should resurrect that competition
02:49:20 <zzo38> oerjan: Is it different language that you put two dots for atheistm?
02:49:20 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Some people is atheist and some agnostic, and some more religious people. Even some scientists are religious, which is OK, but you still have to remember, assuming God exists is not how you are supposed to do science!
02:49:31 <elliott> atheistm? saying that is against my religion
02:49:46 <Gregor> Oooooh, this almond soda is spectacular!
02:50:05 <Sgeo> I misread that as secular
02:50:11 <oerjan> zzo38: no. it's a pun.
02:50:27 <zzo38> oerjan: What pun is that? Is it a pun in a different language?
02:50:46 <Sgeo> Gregor, you don't have any soda that believes in God?
02:50:51 <oerjan> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At%C3%AB
02:50:52 <zzo38> Do you have any secular almond soda?
02:50:58 <Gregor> Soda is incapable of such beliefs.
02:50:59 <Sgeo> </crappy-rehash-of-a-dilbert-joke>
02:51:01 <HackEgo> 311) <zzo38> Some people is atheist and some agnostic, and some more religious people. Even some scientists are religious, which is OK, but you still have to remember, assuming God exists is not how you are supposed to do science!
02:51:25 <elliott> Gregor: I WANT ALMOND OSLDEORIJSH
02:51:34 <elliott> Gregor: Does it taste like liquid marzipan oh god
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02:52:08 <zzo38> O, it is the Greek gods. And it is the ruin, folly, delusion, action performed by hero. Now I know!
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02:57:31 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1989-08-09/
03:11:23 <lambdabot> Prelude (<) :: Ord a => a -> a -> Bool
03:11:23 <lambdabot> Prelude (<=) :: Ord a => a -> a -> Bool
03:11:23 <lambdabot> Prelude (>) :: Ord a => a -> a -> Bool
03:11:41 <elliott> pikhq_: what's that unsafe ghc thing to decide if two objs have the same memory location :p
03:17:38 * pikhq_ is still WTF'ing at tday.
03:18:21 <oerjan> @hoogle a -> a -> IO Bool
03:18:21 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent.MVar tryPutMVar :: MVar a -> a -> IO Bool
03:18:22 <lambdabot> Data.HashTable update :: HashTable key val -> key -> val -> IO Bool
03:18:22 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent.MVar swapMVar :: MVar a -> a -> IO a
03:18:47 <elliott> @@ @elite @read @run wordsWise (map reverse) @show @keal
03:18:48 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
03:18:53 <elliott> @@ @read @elite @run wordsWise (map reverse) @show @keal
03:18:54 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
03:19:01 <elliott> oerjan: your code sample of ages ago no longer works.
03:19:20 <elliott> 17:14:02 <oerjan> @@ @read @elite @run wordsWise (map reverse) @show @keal
03:19:20 <elliott> 17:14:15 * oerjan runs after Wong with an axe
03:19:20 <elliott> 17:15:06 <ihope> Does that make sense?
03:19:20 <elliott> 17:15:26 <oerjan> actually i switched @read and @elite
03:19:20 <elliott> 17:15:35 <oerjan> as for the output, certainly not :D
03:19:23 <elliott> 17:20:07 <ihope> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
03:19:25 <elliott> 17:20:35 <ihope> Oh, swapping them yields sense.
03:19:26 <elliott> 17:21:07 <oerjan> yeah, @read needs a well-formed "string"
03:19:29 <elliott> 17:21:18 <oerjan> which @elite certainly does not give
03:19:31 <elliott> 17:21:34 <ihope> So it grabs a Keal quote, reverses every word, and leets the thing?
03:19:38 <elliott> (it ends with a #, so all bets are off)
03:19:46 <oerjan> elliott: i'd expect wordswise needs a definition
03:20:11 <elliott> @let wordsWise f = unwords . f . words
03:20:14 <elliott> @@ @elite @read @run wordsWise (map reverse) @show @keal
03:20:18 <elliott> @@ @elite @read @run wordsWise (map reverse) @show @keal
03:20:22 <elliott> @@ @elite @read @run wordsWise (map reverse) @show @keal
03:20:24 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
03:25:35 <oerjan> there may be some trouble for some particular quotes, i vaguely recall
03:25:35 <oerjan> maybe very long ones, losing the final " on the string
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03:29:24 <pikhq> Yup, still WTF'ing.
03:30:23 <elliott> pikhq: You can stop WTFing now.
03:30:28 <elliott> It isn't _that_ much of a WTF :P
03:32:38 <pikhq> elliott: I WILL WTF AT ANYTHING I FEEL LIKE AS LONG AS I FEEL LIKE.
03:32:49 <pikhq> I shall, in fact, WTF at the letters WTF now.
03:32:50 <elliott> pikhq: ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH
03:33:10 <pikhq> elliott: Someone's watched Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann recently, eh? :P
03:33:11 <oerjan> world tapdancing foundation
03:33:28 <Sgeo> I thought it was a 4chan meme...
03:33:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's lyrics.
03:33:34 <Gregor> World Tapdancing FEDERATION
03:33:51 <elliott> It must be as ridiculous as professional wrestling.
03:33:58 <elliott> I'm talking about: tapdancing so hard the other guy just FALLS OEVR.
03:35:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: From the song "ラップは漢の魂だ! 無理を通して道理を蹴っ飛ばす! 俺たち大グレン団のテーマを耳の穴かっぽじってよ~く聴きやがれ!!" from the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann soundtrack.
03:35:39 <elliott> DO THE JAPANESE HAVE NO SENSE OF SCALE
03:35:42 <pikhq> ("Rap is a Man's Soul! We Kick Reason to the Curb to Make the Impossible Possible! Open up Your Ears and Listen to Our Team Dai-Gurren Theme!!")
03:35:50 <pikhq> elliott: No, the series has no sense of scale.
03:36:15 <pikhq> It's a mecha anime. That doesn't take itself even slightly seriously.
03:36:33 <pikhq> It ends with a mech orders of magnitude larger than galaxies.
03:37:23 <elliott> I was under the impression that the mecha-anime-that-doesn't-take-itself-even-slightly-seriously market was completely covered for the next hundred years by FLCL :P
03:37:38 <pikhq> No, Gainax decided to outdo themselves.
03:38:07 <Sgeo> I love how the popup notification displays the characters correctly, but the XChat window doens't
03:38:22 <elliott> "You know what we got wrong last time? Yeah, SEVERAL SENTENCES were semi-coherent."
03:38:36 <pikhq> Oh, it's entirely coherent.
03:38:47 <pikhq> That doesn't help.
03:38:51 <Sgeo> Is Gainax the one that made Neon Genesis Evangelion?
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03:39:23 <elliott> Can we just forget Evangelion exists and/or ever existed?
03:39:37 <Sgeo> I still haven't seen the movies
03:39:53 <Sgeo> Or the what's her name movie
03:40:01 <Sgeo> Suzumiya Haruhi
03:40:01 <elliott> There is a limit to the amount of pseudo-intellectual Christian symbolism wankery I can handle, and nobody's shut up yet.
03:40:25 <Sgeo> Angels as evil.. um
03:40:40 <Sgeo> They're taking the symbols and making them not symbolic of anything, as far as I'm concerned
03:40:52 <pikhq> elliott: Well, almost any Christian symbolism coming out of Japan is going to be bizarre, psuedo-intellectual wankery.
03:41:12 <pikhq> What with Japan having negative understanding of the tenants.
03:42:31 <elliott> 10:50:25 <GregorR> Of course, figuring out roundabouts AT ALL was still pretty tough :P
03:42:45 <elliott> they're simple, you go around and around and around and around and when you get so dizzy you're gonna vomit, turn randomly
03:42:49 <elliott> repeat until you end up where you want to be or die
03:42:58 <Gregor> YOU HAVE FUCKING ROUNDABOUTS OF ROUNDABOUTS
03:43:20 <elliott> Gregor: Beats the US model, i.e. LET'S PILE ROADS ON TOP OF EACH OTHER
03:43:43 <oerjan> <pikhq> elliott: Well, almost any Christian symbolism coming out of Japan is going to be bizarre, psuedo-intellectual wankery. <-- i guess they are treating it about like we treat greek or norse mythology...
03:43:54 <elliott> <oerjan> [butthurt about norse mythology]
03:44:06 <elliott> <oerjan> a meaningful viking
03:44:12 <elliott> <oerjan> im "in tune" with my viking ancestry
03:44:42 <oerjan> i only added "norse" as an afterthought, actually...
03:44:50 <pikhq> oerjan: We're at least likely to be aware of what the Greek and Norse gods *stand for*.
03:44:58 <elliott> <oerjan> i was into norse mythology
03:45:01 <elliott> <oerjan> before it was cool.
03:45:11 <pikhq> oerjan: Japan sometimes has Satan as a force of good.
03:45:19 <pikhq> Why? Hell if I know.
03:45:25 <oerjan> i _did_ have a norse mythology book as a child, i think
03:45:32 <elliott> pikhq: i dunno, satan sounds like a chiller guy than god :D
03:45:39 <pikhq> Oh, Shin Megami Tensei. Where the final boss is God.
03:45:44 <elliott> he killed way less people in the bible. also, as has been scientifically proven, hell is colder than heaven
03:46:02 <elliott> also: accommodates all the cool people in hell.
03:46:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, sounds like one of the storylines in my head!
03:46:13 <elliott> also, is way more metal. see: horns.
03:46:20 <Sgeo> Well, not quite
03:46:25 <pikhq> I dunno, man. Jesus is pretty fucking metal.
03:47:01 <elliott> pikhq: WELL THEN MAYBE JESUS AND SATAN SHOULD TEAM UP.
03:47:17 <elliott> CAN YOU THINK OF ANY DOWNSIDE TO THIS IDEA
03:47:58 <pikhq> Curiously, Japanese depictions of things related to Christianity tend to completely omit Jesus.
03:48:14 <pikhq> Y'know, the one thing really seperating Christianity from a sect of Judaism.
03:48:26 <pikhq> Erm, from being a.
03:50:57 <oerjan> <pikhq> I dunno, man. Jesus is pretty fucking metal. <-- a mecha adonis, you mean?
03:52:08 * pikhq declares that Deus Est Machina need be more common.
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03:54:23 <elliott> we need to make a road system
03:54:26 <elliott> based entirely around roundabouts
03:56:06 <Sgeo> I feel discriminated against!
04:00:21 <pikhq> We need to end use of cars in the US.
04:00:41 <pikhq> Step one: relocate most of the continent.
04:00:58 <quintopia> in case anyone hasn't noticed, the Watson crew are feeling questions in r/IAmA right now
04:01:10 <elliott> Everyone sane in the US needs to get out of the US so that we can all forget the US exists :P
04:01:28 <pikhq> With the US's own nukes.
04:02:26 <elliott> I have an excellent plan for making the nice parts of the US happy and the bad parts ignorable, but it involves Cascadia, mass migration to several countries, taking over the UK, and requesting that the European Union do something absolutely ridiculous.
04:02:31 <elliott> (I really did work it out.)
04:02:58 <pikhq> That "something ridiculous" is?
04:03:11 <elliott> pikhq: Admit a country that is quite plainly not in Europe.
04:03:34 <pikhq> elliott: Membership in the EU in no way requires being in Europe.
04:03:50 <elliott> pikhq: (The idea was to invade some random European country that nobody cares much about -- say Italy -- whereby invade I mean "everyone migrates there, forms the Invasion Party, and votes for it" -- and then use that EU position to lobby for Canadia's interests.)
04:04:04 <pikhq> This is the official opinion of the European Council, in fact.
04:04:12 <elliott> Canadia being the result of Cascadia joining with Canada to form the Canadian and Cascadian Union, AKA Canadia.
04:04:15 <elliott> pikhq: WELL THAT SIMPLIFIES THINGS.
04:04:54 <coppro> you just need to be European
04:04:56 <elliott> pikhq: (At the very end, Canadia manages to semi-accidentally adopt the UK's royal family, thus inverting the Commonwealth X-D)
04:05:04 <coppro> quintopia: what is r/IAmA?
04:05:45 <coppro> tomorrow I'm flying out of Toronto to Denver; I'm going to ask why I have to go through customs
04:06:40 <coppro> yeah, that's the same country as Toronto, right?
04:07:25 <quintopia> they actually explained how it made that mistake today at the lecture
04:07:53 <coppro> yeah, it was discussed to length at the math society
04:08:01 <quintopia> Watson was confident that it was supposed to be looking for a city in the U.S., and it found evidence both that Toronto was a city, and a U.S. entity.
04:08:05 <pikhq> elliott: To join the EU, a nation must be European *in the judgement of the European Council*.
04:08:16 <quintopia> just not enough for it to be sure it was a U.S. city
04:08:21 <pikhq> elliott: This has been interpreted to mean "culturally European".
04:08:33 <elliott> pikhq: What the fuck does culturally European mean X-D
04:08:42 <elliott> quintopia: Did it answer "Toronto???????????????????????????"?
04:08:45 <pikhq> elliott: I don't know, ask the European Council.
04:08:56 <elliott> quintopia: why didn't i watch this
04:09:03 <quintopia> I DUNNO???????????????????????????
04:09:11 <elliott> quintopia: could it not find something that was definitely a U.S. city?
04:09:17 <elliott> seems like the kind of information that would always be included...
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04:09:49 <quintopia> elliott: chicago was actually it's second highest rated choice, but it couldn't prove that was a U.S. city either :P
04:09:52 <coppro> pikhq: honestly, I am glad the EU doesn't require actually europeanness
04:10:02 <pikhq> elliott: And the thing is, this *actually matters*.
04:11:26 <pikhq> Cyprus, an EU member state, is in Asia.
04:11:57 <pikhq> In fact, it's closer to the Middle East than anything else.
04:15:19 <pikhq> Not to mention it's been suggested Israel could join if they, y'know, stop with the apartheid.
04:16:35 <Gregor> (Pronounced "CANADA FOR YOU!")
04:17:40 <pikhq> Also, before 1992 there were no formal requirements for EU membership.
04:18:42 <pikhq> (okay, so it *technically* wasn't the EU until then, but the same damned institutions have existed since the 50s in some form.)
04:19:49 <coppro> if any modern entity goes on to be a world government, it will be the EU
04:20:21 <coppro> (the UN does not count as a world government)
04:20:38 <pikhq> Unless the UN completely reforms itself, that seems quite likely.
04:21:09 <coppro> I'm not saying the EU necessarily will do - I doubt it will. But definitely has the best shot out of anything that currently exists.
04:21:48 <pikhq> There's a few other such things that technically *could*.
04:22:01 <pikhq> But aside from the Commonwealth and the EU, none of them matter at all.
04:22:29 <pikhq> The African Union would if Africa didn't suck so bad. :P
04:22:40 <coppro> The Commonwealth isn't really governmental
04:22:40 <elliott> World government, sounds like a GREAT idea :P
04:22:50 <pikhq> coppro: It's vaguely close.
04:22:56 <pikhq> I'm being loose here. :P
04:23:09 <coppro> I suppose it could be if people really watned
04:23:19 <coppro> but it's moving away from unity, not towards it
04:23:30 <coppro> yeah, the African Union might if Africa wasn't broken
04:23:36 <pikhq> Actually, it's gotten a few new members.
04:24:10 <pikhq> (there is no requirement that members be a former British colony. At all.)
04:25:06 <coppro> isn't the only requirement the Queen?
04:25:31 <pikhq> Only some Commonwealth nations are monarchies.
04:26:02 <Gregor> The requirement is saying "Yeah, I guess the commonwealth is pretty cool."
04:26:20 <pikhq> Gregor: And the Commonwealth saying "Yeah, I guess that country is pretty cool."
04:26:35 <pikhq> coppro: Though, of course, membership does require some acknowledgement of the UK throne. After all, Her Majesty is Head of the Commonwealth.
04:28:17 <pikhq> (this role, though, is entirely distinct from any nobility, except by the "coincidence" that it's a hereditary position that started with King George VI, and has the same rules of ascension as the throne.)
04:31:01 <zzo38> If you want to use TeX formats invented by Christians, use Plain TeX. However, I do not think the religion of its author is a good way to decide what to use. I decide to use Plain TeX for its own reasons.
04:31:38 <elliott> Gregor: was that in reference to the line above the line you made.
04:31:42 <Gregor> At the thing before the last thing you said before I said the last thing I said :P
04:31:49 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> If you want to use TeX formats invented by Christians, use Plain TeX. However, I do not think the religion of its author is a good way to decide what to use. I decide to use Plain TeX for its own reasons.
04:32:17 <HackEgo> 312) <zzo38> If you want to use TeX formats invented by Christians, use Plain TeX. However, I do not think the religion of its author is a good way to decide what to use. I decide to use Plain TeX for its own reasons.
04:32:29 <elliott> Gregor: You're not secretly zzo38, by any chance?
04:33:53 <HackEgo> 197) <fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
04:33:54 <pikhq> Why, pray tell, do I find the trappings of nobility so fascinating?
04:34:17 <pikhq> In spite of finding nobility itself a horribly outmoded concept?
04:34:54 <coppro> I'm of the opinion that a constitutional monarchy is a very sane system of government
04:35:04 <elliott> pikhq: Because everyone on IRC has to feel special SOMEHOW :P
04:35:17 <pikhq> elliott: NO I DON'T. BECAUSE I'M SPECIAL.
04:35:34 <coppro> by investing the reserve power in someone who can lose nothing but face by exercising them, it keeps them from being abused
04:35:57 <elliott> The single advantage of monarchy is that if you don't have it, you get the same worship directed to the upper class and politicians.
04:36:11 <elliott> But that is... very little argument.
04:36:24 <elliott> What coppro said makes no sense; there is no need for power that should never be used to exist.
04:36:43 <zzo38> elliott: Are you sure?
04:37:06 <pikhq> elliott: And a monarchy is pretty much always in the limelight, giving them little incentive to do things that are remarkably stupid.
04:38:05 <pikhq> elliott: It's a hell of a lot easier to respect the nobles of the UK than the more-notorious members of the US upper class, simply by merit of them having *done things worthy of respect*.
04:38:33 <pikhq> And easier still with Japanese nobility, as many of them are published scientists.
04:38:49 <elliott> This debate is rather stillborn as coppro can't see anything I say.
04:40:12 <pikhq> coppro: Y'know, in the few cases that a monarch in, say, the UK could exercise the reserve power, so could an elected figure.
04:40:16 <pikhq> coppro: Even if the law didn't say so.
04:40:36 <coppro> ^ yes, but they would be more subject to political pressure
04:40:45 <pikhq> coppro: Because, quite obviously, the public would be so in support of it that they wouldn't *give a fuck* about what the legal system says.
04:41:35 <coppro> pikhq: There was a case recently in canada where we came close here
04:41:35 <pikhq> Eh, I guess I'd call a constitutional monarchy "ultimately not worth objecting to much".
04:42:03 <pikhq> Monarch as a mere symbol of the state? Just... Straight-up doesn't matter that much.
04:42:10 <pikhq> Bit extraneous, perhaps, but meh. Whatever.
04:42:52 <pikhq> Though the UK's particular implementation is all sorts of nuts. :P
04:43:14 <pikhq> The Queen's power is mostly limited by tradition!
04:45:39 <elliott> "Firefox 4 is code-named Tumucumaque, after the world's largest rainforest park."
04:45:48 <elliott> Oh man, that's gonna be a mouthful in Linux title bars.
04:46:02 <elliott> Do you want to set your default browser to Tumucumaque?
04:46:12 <HackEgo> 102) <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
04:47:34 <zzo38> Do you know any shogi variants?
04:55:47 <elliott> I am going to bed in like two seconds.
04:56:49 <zzo38> pikhq: I mean others played like shogi, but different.
04:57:19 <zzo38> One thing I do not like in chess is the tall pieces, I prefer the flat pieces like Xiangqi and Shogi uses.
04:57:47 <oerjan> Like shogi, but _very_ different.
04:58:20 <zzo38> Can you design a game a cross between shogi and tic-tac-toe?
04:58:30 <elliott> Yes. It's called shogi-tac-toe.
04:58:36 <elliott> You play a game of shogi and a game of tic-tac-toe simultaneously.
04:59:30 <zzo38> But tic-tac-toe will end much sooner? And probably ties anyways. So then it is like shogi. Isn't it?
04:59:53 <elliott> It's like shogi, but different.
04:59:54 <zzo38> Because, if you tie, does the entire game end in a tie, or do you continue playing shogi until someone wins at shogi?
05:00:06 <elliott> If both tie, both contestants must commit suicide.
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05:01:34 <zzo38> By putting on your tie too tight? Or in what way?
05:03:58 <zzo38> elliott: I think that unless you specifically want to commit suicide, you won't actually do so because instead you will agree not to.
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05:17:03 <zzo38> I think I have now finally finished two files, "texnicard.w" and "texnicard_format.tex". Now I just have to finish "plain.cards" as well.
05:32:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan: what pace do you recommend i archive-binge iwc btw? i've been meaning to. <-- divide in 7. Spread it out over a single week
05:32:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> wonder if that's still true <-- no, not generally
05:33:29 <oerjan> Vorpal: that seems rather higher than the hundred comics a day he mentioned as too excessive
05:33:47 <Vorpal> <oerjan> with high probability indeed. <-- for a good pun in that context you would need something about statistical significance.
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05:34:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh I missed that bit
05:34:39 <oerjan> i.e. that would give about 30 days
05:34:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, I read iwc back then spread out over like two nights
05:34:57 <Vorpal> was summer holidays though I think
05:35:10 <Vorpal> also it is of course significantly longer
05:36:57 <oerjan> i think i started in autumn 2006 when ther were only around 1300 comics
05:37:24 <oerjan> now it's soon about to pass the 3000 mark
05:40:35 <pikhq> zzo38: Bughouse chess.
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09:38:53 <fizzie> Gregor: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/ejsoutTapeMap.js + http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/egojsout.js.patch.txt -- you get to integrate(tm) it in better if you want to have it. Since the tape-map is a collected thing over all tape lengths and polarities, I didn't put it in with the debugFunctions thing but instead spliced the statistics-collecting in directly.
09:40:29 <fizzie> Looks like http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/ejstape.png since I just plonked the canvas in wherever it happened to go.
09:41:47 <fizzie> Log-scaling the colors might look interesting too, currently it's often quite a "binary" output.
09:42:03 <fizzie> It's also not the most easiest thing ever to read.
09:43:17 <fizzie> My blue/red colors are the opposite of the animations, also; the red parts are where the left program spent time.
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13:14:12 <quintopia> are the white parts the average decoy heights?
13:24:28 <Gregor> fizzie: I predict a whole new game: trying to form pretty pictures in the tapemap :P
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13:35:18 <Ilari> Urgh. crsc.nist.gov is slow as molasses. And it isn't IPv6 messing things up (I checked the DNS records, it only has A, NSEC and RRSIG records, no AAAA so no IPv6 connection attempts).
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13:53:06 <quintopia> i want a catbus where you can arbitrarily specify the flow of input and output
13:53:46 <quintopia> but every program talking to every program is probably good enough
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14:18:09 <fizzie> quintopia: Here's a good name for the latter utility, sure to gain popular approval: "incest pipe".
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14:30:01 <ais523> hmm, I'm still working on defend9.75
14:30:16 <ais523> I got it to beat interior_crocodile_alligator (closely) last night, which is something I didn't even realise was possible
14:33:25 <ais523> I'm testing it against the current hill now
14:33:46 <ais523> it's kind-of slow, as the current version takes over 30 thousand cycles to beat some programs
14:37:17 <Gregor> ais523: Creeping up to tying by cycle limit :P
14:37:25 <Vorpal> ais523, those bfjsout animations for the strategy page demos. Which is the program they compete against?
14:37:35 <Vorpal> I couldn't find it mentioned anywhere on the page
14:37:48 <ais523> Vorpal: it's "simple", it's not a very good program
14:37:56 <ais523> it's designed to be beaten in as many different ways as is possible
14:37:59 <Gregor> I think the golf hill should be 320 characters, 10K cycles >: )
14:38:04 <ais523> in order to demonstrate opposing strategies
14:38:22 <Vorpal> ais523, hm. it does manage to beat shudders iirc
14:38:23 <ais523> Gregor: note that the extraordinary long length was a result of trying to make it fit into egobot
14:38:28 <ais523> it uses a tape cell as a counter rather than ()
14:38:37 <ais523> Vorpal: not always, it depends on tape length
14:38:40 <Deewiant> 320 chars is plenty, allegro is less than half of that
14:38:44 <Gregor> ais523: 'twas an independent thought.
14:38:44 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, maybe it should be mentioned somewhere on that page. If it really is missing
14:38:56 <Vorpal> ais523, is the tape length random or given in the link?
14:39:03 <ais523> Vorpal: the page is a list of notable programs
14:39:12 <ais523> and the tape length is given in the link; it defaults to 25 on sieve polarity
14:39:32 <ais523> sometimes we change it to make sure simple loses
14:40:12 <Vorpal> <Deewiant> 320 chars is plenty, allegro is less than half of that <-- You obviously don't mean that the library allegro is less than that, so which allegro do you mean?
14:40:21 <ais523> the most hilarious defend9.75 result at the moment is the timeout tie against space elevator at one polarity
14:40:29 <Deewiant> What do you think I mean in the context of bfjoust
14:40:40 <Vorpal> ais523, is "sieve polarity" ++ or +- ?
14:40:44 <ais523> I assumed it was a result of being too slow; looking into it, what happens is that they both end up trying to clear the same nonzero cells in the same direction at different speeds
14:40:48 <ais523> in a way that it never hits 0
14:41:59 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm curious as to why you call ++ "sieve polarity"... And I also wonder what you would name +-
14:42:11 <ais523> they're elliott's names
14:42:15 <ais523> and he names +- "kettle"
14:42:43 <Vorpal> ais523, any idea as to why he selected those?
14:44:00 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Looks like http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/ejstape.png since I just plonked the canvas in wherever it happened to go. <-- the "imagey" bit in that screenshot looks like some sort of procedurally generated pixel art from a demo from the 8-bit era.
14:44:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Did you see the http://zem.fi/~fis/tapestats_all.png version?
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14:45:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, 1) you should make an animation out of these frames. 2) pretty, what does it mean?
14:45:46 <Vorpal> I guess you would need frames in between though to make it smoother
14:46:00 <fizzie> There's an explanation somewhere in the logs, but basically it's tape locations colorized by the amount of time the tape pointer has spent there.
14:46:17 <Vorpal> how fizzie to think of such a thing.
14:46:18 <fizzie> Blue for right program, red for left; and one side of the image for normal polarity, the other for reversed.
14:46:52 <fizzie> There's a larger picture somewhere.
14:46:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is interesting how often they are fairly symmetric still.
14:47:01 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/tapestats2.png
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14:47:06 <fizzie> That one has labels and all.
14:47:10 <ais523> Vorpal: you'd expect that, if it ever got very asymmetric likely one program would win soon after
14:47:13 <ais523> except in rush vs. defence
14:47:33 <Vorpal> ais523, I meant around the y axis
14:48:03 <Vorpal> ais523, as in, they are fairly symmetric when polarity is reversed
14:48:04 <fizzie> Oh, and the tapes are oriented so that the centermost pixel is always the opponent's flag.
14:48:36 <ais523> Vorpal: most programs aren't particularly polarity-sensitive
14:48:59 <ais523> the days where polarity reversal made a huge difference are mostly long gone
14:49:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, also you mirrored the image between the polarities right? Or why else is it a diamond shape
14:49:05 <ais523> although it happens sometimes, especially with the program I'm working on atm
14:49:14 <ais523> which is much more reliable on one polarity than the other
14:50:01 <fizzie> Yes, it's flipped for the other side, to make the center line always the flag.
14:50:17 <Vorpal> ais523, hm you can use unpredictable zeroing patterns to counter stuff like vibrators and shudders right?
14:50:38 <Vorpal> ais523, I wonder how well an unpredictable shudder pattern would do.
14:51:14 <ais523> if the opponent is immune to being tricked off the tape, like most are nowadays (apart from turtles), it'd simply increase the chance you'd lose by chance
14:51:26 <ais523> you can compare good shudder and good antishudder patterns
14:51:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, right. And why is the grey area a triangle?
14:51:33 <ais523> the best shudder patterns are along the lines of --+
14:51:46 <ais523> antishudder, something like -----++++++. works quite nicely
14:53:53 <fizzie> Different Y values correspond to different tape lengths; I've just arbitrarily arranged them from 10 to 30 and then from 30 to 10 (for the other program) in that order.
14:54:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it was just pure chance it made a nice-looking diamond shape?
14:55:16 <fizzie> Yes; it used in fact to be a hourglass shape, see http://zem.fi/~fis/tapestats.png
14:55:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, but it was never a saw tooth one?
14:56:10 <fizzie> Not in anything I copied to the web.
14:56:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, also some of those tape lengths near the middle look too short. And the top ones are cut off?
14:56:34 <Vorpal> http://zem.fi/~fis/tapestats2.png for example
14:56:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, the outermost lengths seem to be 2?
14:56:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, isn't it one block per cell?
14:57:00 <fizzie> The bottommost length is 10 for both.
14:57:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh I read it the wrong way around XD
14:57:12 <fizzie> And the topmost is 30 for both.
14:57:17 <Vorpal> as in, rotated 90 degrees
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14:58:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, you should do some sort of similarity graph thingy based on this "loitering time" and other parameters :P
14:59:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, in fact it might even work out well enough that it could be used to classify them like ais523 suggested some time ago
14:59:16 <fizzie> I already have that clustering thing.
14:59:23 <ais523> yep, I like fizzie's clustering
14:59:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did it work out? also link
14:59:34 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/clust15.png
14:59:41 <quintopia> fizzie: could you explain the tapemap?
15:00:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty graph but what is that one
15:00:06 <Vorpal> as in, how do I read it
15:00:45 <Vorpal> ais523, "ais523_definder2"?
15:01:09 <ais523> definder's my program that generates flexible defence algorithms
15:01:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's a dendrogram; you read it the "usual" way. The vertical bars give a distance between the two things they connect; and it just arbitrarily assigns a single color for all those blocks where the distance is below 0.7*max.
15:01:38 <ais523> and definder2 was what happened when I combined such an algorithm with the concept of defend13
15:01:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not familiar with dendrograms, however I will google for it
15:01:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, just what is the x axis scale though?
15:03:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, it's a rather arbitrary distance measure. Basically, for two programs A and B, it's the manhattan distance between the vectors you get if you take all (N-2)*(21*2) scores they have in common against other programs, as (-1, 0, 1)-valued vectors.
15:04:04 -!- sftp has joined.
15:04:20 <fizzie> And for two clusters, the distance is the average distance between all pairwise distances.
15:04:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess PCA wouldn't be very helpful here?
15:05:32 <ais523> if you're trying to work out strategies in clustering, treating win/loss/draw as all different might work better
15:05:44 <ais523> as several types of programs are basically incapable of drawing
15:06:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, another thing you could do once you clustered the program is try to show which authors are similar. And possibly also how wide "spread" they have between their programs. For example impomatic's program seem to be a group on their own there.
15:06:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: It (or some other dimensionality reduction algorithms) might provide interesting-looking 2d projections; I did consider it, didn't plot anything yet.
15:06:46 <quintopia> fizzie: fucking tape maps: how do they work?
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15:07:38 <fizzie> quintopia: Oh, right. Well, it does ltapestats[lp]++; rtapestats[rp]++ (where lp and rp are the left/right tape pointers) on every cycle, then just scales those so that 1 = max and plots all 21*2*2 vectors.
15:08:05 <ais523> !bfjoust defend9.75 http://sprunge.us/VTYQ
15:08:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, link to those diagrams?
15:08:14 <ais523> that's unlikely to go right to the top of the leaderboard, but it should go higher
15:08:34 <fizzie> So if you have a program that sits on the opponent's flag all the time, it'll have a direct vertical line in the middle; while a [-]-suicider will have a /\ sort of shape since it'll be on the "outermost" spot all the time.
15:08:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Which diagrams?
15:08:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, the ones quintopia mentioned
15:08:54 <Vorpal> or are those the diamonds?
15:09:41 <quintopia> fizzie: the center is opponent flag and the outside edge is home flag?
15:10:24 <quintopia> fizzie: can you make an average decoy size as function of distance from home flag map?
15:12:23 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I suspect that adding "loitering time" to the classification stuff might give interesting results. Hard to tell though.
15:15:00 <fizzie> quintopia: I'm not quite sure how to detect when a program sets a decoy. Unless you just want something simple, like average over all tape values (for one location) that the programs leave there when moving away from it.
15:15:40 <quintopia> fizzie: exactly. in absolute (distance from zero) size
15:16:52 <fizzie> I'll try to remember to plot one later today when I get home.
15:17:05 <Vorpal> quintopia, how would you show when a program builds a small decoy then goes back and extends it a bit later
15:18:22 <quintopia> Vorpal: perhaps just use the maximum size the cell reaches
15:20:34 <ais523> I think I know how to fix defend9.75 to beat the bondage girls, too
15:20:37 <ais523> or at least some of them
15:21:40 <ais523> but it'll double it in length
15:22:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: If I directly add "full tape maps against all shared opponents" as features, I'll get 67200-dimensional feature vectors; that might be overdoing it a bit. But I could try out (either for clustering or for separate plotting) the program's own tape-map averaged over all opponents; that might look interesting too.
15:22:19 <Vorpal> ais523, strange that such a thing could double it in length
15:22:49 <ais523> Vorpal: very large offset clears currently cause misdetections
15:23:04 <ais523> but I have another tripwire that I can use to detect those and switch to a different tape length
15:23:14 <Vorpal> ais523, by defend9.75 or by Gregor's programs?
15:23:18 <fizzie> There seems to be some across-columns correlation for the red halves of http://zem.fi/~fis/tapestats_all.png -- and across-rows for blue -- which would make sense, since the red/blue program is always the same in each column/row.
15:23:34 <ais523> Vorpal: defend9.75 currently picks the wrong strategy against things using unusually large offset clears
15:24:09 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the other way around. Hard to tell from the images, really.
15:24:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm you could do some sort of graph to show much much it varies for different programs there
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15:25:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, and the blue is definitely horizonal in similary for many
15:25:24 <fizzie> Based on that one row where the red program has just thin / \ stripes (indicating it never moved from its own flag) I'd say one row == same red program.
15:25:40 <fizzie> There is also a corresponding blue \/ column.
15:25:53 <fizzie> (I probably had a suicider on my hill there.)
15:27:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, red looks like it is vertical in many other places though. Such as the one that is almost always a line in the middle with little outside
15:27:38 <ais523> heh, defence programs are pretty recognisable
15:27:59 <ais523> full-tape clears have a pretty distinctive view
15:28:11 <fizzie> Yes, there is correlation both ways; I guess some opponents manage to "force" a similar sort of behaviour.
15:28:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah could be. Could you plot that tendency to force a behaviour somehow? Would that even be feasible.
15:28:55 <fizzie> ais523: You can also read rule of 9 from the plots.
15:29:02 <Gregor> ais523: Such as furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls?
15:29:06 <Gregor> It has an offset clear of size 30
15:29:22 <ais523> Gregor: yep, 30 * 3 > 85, so it's just enough to defeat me
15:29:23 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is the strategy of that one?
15:29:25 <ais523> but I can detect that separately
15:29:38 <ais523> really, I should call this program defend9.85, it's so focused on the number 85
15:29:45 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's two new strategies plus a hybrid, I'll doc it on the wiki this weekend and/or tonight.
15:29:57 <ais523> ais523_defend9_75.bfjoust vs elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator.bfjoust: >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<< ais523_defend9_75.bfjoust wins
15:30:07 <ais523> that's the outcome I still can't really believe, even though I know how I did it
15:30:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: The two new strategies are deep poke (appropriate for the name) and breadcrumbs.
15:30:18 <ais523> beating alligators should be nearly impossible for defend9.75
15:30:33 <ais523> Gregor: hmm, is it a poke that skips small values?
15:30:43 <ais523> I was wondering about that
15:30:44 <Vorpal> ais523, what does alligator do?
15:30:57 <ais523> changes strategy halfway through its clear
15:31:08 <ais523> luckily, doing that means that it takes a huge amount of time to move off a tape cell
15:31:15 <ais523> that confuses most previous defence programs
15:31:20 <ais523> but it turns out it's detectable
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15:32:23 <ais523> oh, I also added a brainfuck-joust-mode to esolangs.el
15:32:29 <Vorpal> ais523, would it be a decent tactic to assume the length of the tape is, say, 11 or longer and get an advantage on the longer tapes at the expense of failing at a handful or short ones?
15:32:43 <ais523> no; it used to be, but that works badly against large decoys
15:32:46 <Vorpal> or does the scoring somehow bias against such behaviour?
15:33:00 <ais523> because the amount you lose is equal to the amount you gain
15:33:12 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you mean
15:33:38 <Vorpal> ais523, what i meant was doing (>)*11 instead of (>)*9 or such
15:33:48 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend9_75: 40.5
15:33:51 <Vorpal> while you would lose on the short tapes there are many more long tapes
15:33:52 <ais523> the advantage you gain on the longer tapes if, say, you abandon length 10, only works on a number of tape elements equal to the nubmber you skip
15:34:07 <Deewiant> It went down from the previous
15:34:27 <Deewiant> 21 | + + + + + - 0 + - + + + + + - + + + + + - + + - - + - + + + + - - - - + + + + + + + + - + - | 42.8 | 11.4 | 21 | ais523_defend9_75.bfjoust
15:34:30 <Deewiant> 21 | + + + + + - - + - + + + - + + + + + + + - + + - - + + - + + + - - - - + + + + + + + + - + - | 40.5 | 10.5 | 21 | ais523_defend9_75.bfjoust
15:34:50 <Vorpal> ais523, why did it use to be a good tactic though?
15:35:01 <ais523> because decoys were small and the length of trails mattered
15:35:05 <ais523> nowadays, though, people don't use trails
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15:35:38 <ais523> hmm, I can't do this fix after all, it'll kill egojoust
15:35:39 <Vorpal> ais523, but for a fast rush style program that would give less time for the opponent to set up a large decoy though
15:36:18 <ais523> it's only going to help on 1 tape length
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15:49:00 <Gregor> !bfjoust huzzah ((-)*256(+)*256)*-1
15:49:28 <Gregor> I don't know why I keep trying this stupid crap :P
15:50:27 <quintopia> it'll do no better than any shudder...
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15:53:38 <Gregor> Gregor_huzzah.bfjoust vs Gregor_return_of_ehird_defend8mwahahaha.bfjoust:
15:53:38 <Gregor> <><><><><><><><><><>< <><><><><><><><><><>< <><><><><><><><><><>< <><><><><><><><><><><
15:53:38 <Gregor> Gregor_huzzah.bfjoust wins
15:54:58 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_huzzah: 11.1
15:55:38 <quintopia> not as good as good_vibrations was
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15:56:29 <Gregor> Still, my strapon pegging girls are so good at the deep poke.
15:56:46 <Gregor> Oh sorry, just thinking about something else.
15:57:22 <Gregor> Anyway, I foresee an arms race exactly like the current offset-vs-decoy arms race, but one level indirected into deep poke.
15:59:06 <quintopia> i wouldn't be surprised. people building bigger decoys during initial rush, slowing themselves down a bit to avoid the deep poke, while poking deeper themselves
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15:59:17 <ais523> defend9.75 has an anti-deep-poke already
15:59:22 <ais523> but it may not be fast enough
15:59:43 <ais523> it's actually there for the purpose of beating saccharin_philip, for a mostly unrelated reason
15:59:54 <quintopia> i still think the primary benefit of a poke is to get a little bit more room on longer tapes, and would rather see more strategy develop in the midgame
16:00:00 -!- Xyz has changed nick to Zuu.
16:00:09 <Gregor> saccharin_philip isn't even on the board any more :P
16:00:15 <ais523> I don't think pokes are all that powerful
16:00:45 <Gregor> ais523: It was brilliant back when nobody was doing it, but poke-v-poke is ineffectual :P
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16:01:54 <ais523> it doesn't help at all against reverse-decoy-setup defence
16:01:59 <ais523> in fact, it actually hinders
16:05:20 <Gregor> !bfjoust decoys_are_dead_just_rush_instead (>+>-)*4(>[[-]]+>[[-]]-)*11
16:05:46 <Deewiant> That looks almost exactly like an old version of monorail
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16:07:04 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_decoys_are_dead_just_rush_instead: 13.1
16:07:38 <Gregor> Yesssssssssssssssssssssssss
16:13:21 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys (>)*8(>[>>>(>[[-]])*17])*21
16:13:37 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 7.5
16:13:39 <Gregor> That might be so fast that the name is true but the behavior is wrong :P
16:13:59 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys (.)*256(>)*8(>[>>>(>[[-]])*17])*21
16:14:32 <Gregor> Ohwait, starting this with (>)*8 makes no sense too :P
16:14:46 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 8.1
16:14:53 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys (.)*256(>)*4(>[>>>(>[[-]])*17])*21(>[[-]])*4
16:15:15 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 11.0
16:15:26 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys (.)*256(>)*4(>[>>>(>[(+)*30[-]])*17])*21(>[(+)*30[-]])*4
16:15:38 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 15.2
16:16:07 * oerjan has this inkling that the () parentheses perhaps should be optional around single characters...
16:16:17 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys (>(+)*32>(-)*32)*4(>[>>>(>[(+)*30[-]])*17])*21(>[(+)*30[-]])*4
16:16:32 <Gregor> oerjan: Eh, it makes parsing it a modicum easier *shrugs*
16:16:46 <Gregor> oerjan: Also it lets * be a comment in any place other than after )
16:16:53 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 28.3
16:18:01 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys (>(+)*64>(-)*64)*2(>[>>>(>[(+)*30[-]])*17])*17(>[(+)*30[-]])*4
16:18:14 <oerjan> Gregor: i am just noticing that () around single chars seems rather common
16:18:16 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 28.1
16:19:25 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys (>)*4(+)*64<(-)*64<(+)*64<(-)*64>>> (>[>>>(>[(+)*30[-]])*17])*17(>[(+)*30[-]])*4
16:21:02 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 33.1
16:21:05 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys (>->+)*2(+)*64<(-)*64<(+)*64<(-)*64>>> (>[>>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*17])*17(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:21:17 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 32.2
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16:22:47 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*64<(-)*63>>> (>[>>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*17])*17(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:23:02 <Gregor> Whoops, that's not quite what I wanted...
16:23:22 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 34.4
16:23:38 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*85<(-)*85>>> (>[>>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*17])*17(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:23:57 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 28.5
16:24:09 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[>>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*17])*17(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:24:17 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 39.8
16:24:22 <oerjan> actually i don't think it needs to be much harder to parse. all you need is a pointer to the previous command (you may want to null that when passing comments) when hitting a *, you don't need to insert anything before the already parsed command
16:24:52 <oerjan> in fact the logic could be entirely in the standalone * parsing
16:25:14 <oerjan> (assuming you can peek at the previous char)
16:25:53 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[>>>(>[(+)*32[-].[[.-].[.++-------[...-]]]])*17])*17(>[(+)*32[-].[[.-].[.++-------[...-]]]])*4
16:26:05 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 39.3
16:28:21 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[>>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*17])*21(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:29:39 <oerjan> except for *0, which simply resets the end of the compiled program to the previous command instead (works with literal () too)
16:30:02 <oerjan> *start of the previous
16:30:11 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 44.1
16:30:37 <Gregor> oerjan: For me it's just that I'd have to insert some artificial things into the parsed command stream, which is doable but obnoxious :P
16:30:49 <Gregor> ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys is now #7 X-D
16:30:52 <oerjan> _what_ artificial things?
16:31:19 <Gregor> oerjan: ( and ). All my looping logic is in the handling of BFJ.PSTART and BFJ.PEND.
16:32:17 <oerjan> ok maybe your design isn't compatible with this
16:32:50 <oerjan> if you are not using actual pointers
16:33:10 <oerjan> if you are using pointers, ( can be a nop and so needs no representation
16:36:12 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ ([+{([-{ >>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*21 }])%8}])%4 ])*21(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:36:15 <oerjan> (i am thinking of imperatively parsing bfjoust more as a kind of bytecode compiling)
16:36:37 <Gregor> I'm talking about egojsout :P
16:38:19 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 41.2
16:38:33 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ >>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*21 ])*21(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:38:45 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 44.1
16:38:48 <Gregor> Looks like doing a deep-poke-alike didn't do so well there.
16:39:40 <oerjan> oh well if you use javascript's functional features (note i don't really know javascript), then this should be even easier
16:39:47 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ [+([-{ >>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*21 }])%2] ])*21(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:39:55 <oerjan> no need to lay down the result in an array as you go
16:40:11 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 41.1
16:40:17 * oerjan feels like he is trolling right now :D
16:40:17 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ >>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*21 ])*21(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
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16:45:11 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 44.1
16:45:11 <Gregor> oerjan: I'm the one writing ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys :P
16:45:12 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ >>>(>[(+)*33[-]])*21 ])*21(>[(+)*33[-]])*4
16:45:13 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 43.1
16:46:29 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ >>>(>[(+)*9[-]])*21 ])*21(>[(+)*9[-]])*4
16:46:40 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 30.1
16:46:48 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ >>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*21 ])*21(>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:46:49 <quintopia> you aren't actually checking for four decoys you know
16:47:02 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 44.1
16:47:09 <Gregor> Errr, not "checking", no.
16:47:13 <Gregor> Just skipping them under the assumption that they're there.
16:47:20 <quintopia> you are checking that the first decoy you see is at least 4 out from the flag
16:47:46 <quintopia> and that it is within 4 of the 10th cell
16:47:50 <Deewiant> Gregor: Tweaking constants, I see!
16:48:05 <Gregor> Deewiant: This isn't a serious contender, it's just a troll :P
16:48:08 <quintopia> try making the last 4 in the program bigger
16:48:35 <Gregor> quintopia: ... 4 + 21 + 4 = 29
16:49:02 <Gregor> quintopia: 4 + 21 + 4 > 29, so that's just running off the tape for no reason.
16:49:59 <quintopia> your program quits if it doesn't find a nonzero value on cells 9-12
16:50:16 <quintopia> you may do better by looking forward a bit
16:50:23 <Gregor> quintopia: No, it doesn't, it looks at cells 9-29 X_X
16:51:07 <Gregor> Deewiant: Yes, for if I got to a cell so far ahead, that skipping decoys guarantees me to jump off the tape.
16:51:30 <Gregor> ^^^ totes English you guys
16:51:52 <Deewiant> It looks like the *4 wraps the whole thing
16:52:27 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ >>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*21 ])*21 YOU GUYS LOOKA THE SPACE HERE LOL (>[(+)*32[-]])*4
16:52:45 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys: 44.1
16:53:06 <quintopia> why didn't you put it there to begin with?
16:53:23 <quintopia> geez man, does readability mean nothing to you?
17:02:32 <Gregor> It's amazing that you thought it got to 7th place with a bug that glaring :P
17:03:38 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_six_decoys >->(+)*37<(-)*37>>> (>[ >>>>>(>[(+)*32[-]])*21 ])*19 YOU GUYS LOOKA THE SPACE HERE LOL (>[(+)*32[-]])*6
17:03:54 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_six_decoys: 28.6
17:04:18 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.06 (1x/15+1x/16 to Hong Kong, 1x/15 to China, 1x/15+1x/18+2x/22 to Singapore, 1x/18+1x/19+2x/22 to Japan, 8x/16+1x/19+1x/24 to Australia). On IPv6 front: 2x/32 to Australia, 1x/32 to Indonesia.
17:04:39 <Gregor> !bfjoust ill_bet_you_have_six_decoys <3
17:04:50 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_six_decoys: 0.0
17:07:47 -!- sftp has joined.
17:19:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:20:36 <Ilari> APNIC totals for month (IPv4(blocks)/IPv6): Allocated this month : 11 252 480(0.67)/3 342 349. Extrap. to 28 days: 17 503 857(1.04)/5 199 209. To 31 days: 19 379 271(1.16)/5 756 267. Last month: 23 735 040(1.41)/2 818 065.
17:27:43 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:30:19 <Ilari> This month is already 16th highest in IPv4 allocation counts (out of present allocations). At that extrapolated amount, this month would rank the 4th. Out of top 20, 9 are from last year or this year.
17:32:25 <Vorpal> <quintopia> it'll do no better than any shudder... <-- why do you hate shudders so much?
17:33:25 <Gregor> There's a scene in the episode of Futurama that's a parody of Titanic where Kif goes to Brannigan and the conversation goes something like this: "We have a problem." "Come back when it's a catastrophe." *ship crashes*
17:33:43 <Gregor> That conversation is a parallel to ipv4->ipv6 migration :P
17:39:03 <Ilari> Allocation rate this month: 13.61bpa. Last month was 16.67bpa. 10bpa would deplete present pool in about 5 months, 12bpa would do it in about 4.2 months, 15bpa in about 3.4 months.
17:40:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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17:48:13 <Ilari> IETF&co realized "We have a problem" in the 90s. IPv6 IANA pool was created 1st July 1999. After that, problem mitigation has been pretty lackluster.
17:50:34 <Ilari> Reminds me of Metric Act of 1866. In the following 145 years, not much progress (besides some new industries).
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17:53:10 <Ilari> Well, when IPv4 DFZ routing table size starts to give serious headaches and ISP support phones are ringing off the hook with support requests because of NAT444, perhaps then IPv6 deployment will really take off...
17:53:37 <Gregor> Ilari: I thought the Metric Act just /allowed/ metric where otherwise disallowed, it didn't really /encourage/ it.
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17:55:58 <Ilari> Yup. But back then metric adoption was "hotter" topic. But then it "died".
17:57:49 <pikhq> Metric adoption is actually happening in the US, though.
17:58:06 <pikhq> Almost entirely because industry doesn't want to retool stuff for domestic use.
17:58:42 <ais523> it's mostly happened in the UK already
17:59:00 <ais523> although you still get things like beer sold in pints
17:59:11 <pikhq> For instance, US cars are now down entirely in metric, with the only non-metric bits being the speedometer...
17:59:13 <ais523> (the bar has to say what the size of a pint is in metric, but that's normally in tiny small print somewhere)
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17:59:24 <ais523> UK speedometers are marked in both mph and kph
17:59:29 <ais523> although the speed limit is measured in mph
17:59:41 <pikhq> MPH as the primary marking.
17:59:53 <ais523> here it seems more or less random which is the primary
18:00:20 <pikhq> I'm sad that the US road standards recently stopped allowing metric.
18:00:32 <pikhq> Not that it matters too much; there was like one or two roads with metric signage.
18:00:44 <Ilari> Oh, and electric units are already metric. Imperial electric units existed but are apparently totally forgotten.
18:01:09 <pikhq> ... There were imperial electric units?
18:01:41 <ais523> not only that, but there are three separate sets of metric electric units
18:01:42 <pikhq> Probably can't beat the elegance of, say, the kg m^2 c^-1 s^2.
18:01:49 <ais523> although people are standardised on SI nowadays
18:02:02 <pikhq> ais523: Well, yes, there are many different forms of metric systems.
18:02:09 <pikhq> But who gives a crap about non-SI?
18:03:15 <Ilari> I haven't been able to locate any more information about imperial electric units than that those existed.
18:03:56 <pikhq> Probably just died out really quick, courtesy of physics being so very much simpler in metric systems.
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18:05:41 <Ilari> But if rest of imperial system is of any indication, those units were a real Charlie Foxtrot.
18:06:31 <pikhq> The only sane way to do complex calculation on imperial units is, of course, to convert to and from metric first. As I'm sure you well know.
18:06:45 <Ilari> Metric system is internally consistent. Imperial system isn't.
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18:14:15 <Ilari> There's also fun page containing the meter/inch ratio. The correct value is of course 5000/127 = 39.[370078740157480314960629921259842519685039]. It had numerious diffrent ways to round that number plus various strange values.
18:15:05 <Ilari> (collected from various sources).
18:16:52 <elliott> FAIL: firefoxlive.org, promotional site for Firefox streaming live video of firefoxes, requires Flash to play.
18:18:58 <Sgeo> I'm considering switching to Firefox 4 when it comes out
18:20:39 <elliott> pikhq: Although *to be fair*, there's no Standard(TM) way to do live streaming right now.
18:22:00 <elliott> 21:32:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan: what pace do you recommend i archive-binge iwc btw? i've been meaning to. <-- divide in 7. Spread it out over a single week
18:22:01 <pikhq> elliott: Clearly <video> should support Icecast.
18:22:06 <elliott> Vorpal: let's assume IWC only has 2000 comics.
18:22:11 <elliott> Vorpal: that has me reading 286 comics a day.
18:22:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm already reading like 400 comics a day for Homestuck, and _those_ are at least single-panel :P
18:23:01 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: I'm already reading like 400 comics a day for Homestuck, and _those_ are at least single-panel :P <-- wait, how many strips are there in that one?
18:23:21 <elliott> but they don't directly map to normal comic strips.
18:23:28 <elliott> because it updates about 5 panels/day.
18:23:31 <Vorpal> elliott, also doesn't homestuck have quite a bit of text iirc?
18:23:47 <elliott> it's more like one of those text adventure games where you could see pictures above
18:23:53 <Vorpal> elliott, of course with IWC you have those annotations
18:24:01 <elliott> Vorpal: argh, don't remind me :D
18:24:09 <elliott> maybe i should get up to date with Homestuck first ...
18:24:36 <elliott> although that runs the risk of forgetting that there exist universes without hideously overly-complicated inventory systems.
18:24:58 <Vorpal> elliott, while they are often short they sometimes you hit the occasional door-stopper about Cantor's proofs or the Banach–Tarski paradox
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18:25:22 <elliott> Maybe I'll have a more hilarious time if I read them all in a ridiculous Australian accent.
18:25:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I never read homestuck, didn't look very interesting. What is the setting of them?
18:25:59 <Vorpal> wait argh what. homestuck uses animated gif?
18:26:07 <elliott> Yes. And Flash updates. Sometimes with sound. :P
18:26:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it seems elliott does however.
18:26:37 <Vorpal> while I don't plan to read it I did take a look at it just now since he mentioned it
18:26:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It's hard to say much without spoiling, but basically, the whole thing is set in something vaguely resembling an RPG (among the various modi it can be in are stack (can only access top element, shoves the bottom one off), queue (etc.), hash map (with configurable hash function), tree, ...), with a game in-game that uh
18:26:52 <oerjan> Vorpal: incidentally the previous iwc poll clearly showed that the option readers wanted most to have more of was precisely these long scientific annotations
18:26:56 <elliott> It's seriously simpler to read it than explain it X-P
18:27:10 * oerjan voted Supers personally, because it's been so long since the last one
18:27:29 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, *what* can be a stack
18:27:34 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, I hate being isolated from civilisation like this.
18:27:37 <elliott> Vorpal: The protagonist's inventory.
18:28:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Which is operated by CAPTCHALOGUING things into a SYLLADEX.
18:28:37 <oerjan> of course supers seem unlikely to come back, being drawn by someone else
18:28:44 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: incidentally the previous iwc poll clearly showed that the option readers wanted most to have more of was precisely these long scientific annotations <-- they are fun indeed. But I don't think they would work very well if they weren't about something relevant to the comic. I think it is the combination of fun stories and the annotations that make iwc what it is
18:29:23 <Vorpal> elliott, "SYLLADEX"? who thought that was a good word for *anything*
18:29:46 <elliott> Vorpal: If someone setting their hash-map inventory to use Scrabble letter scores as the (per-letter) hash function appeals to you, then it's worth reading just for that :P
18:30:15 <Ilari> Heh. UDP-Lite (protocol #136).
18:30:16 <Vorpal> elliott, also am I right in that homestuck front page contains the first comic and there is no obvious "today" button anywhere
18:30:24 <Vorpal> (I want to check artwork)
18:30:43 <oerjan> Vorpal: hey that sounds like a way to force your readers to read chronologically XD
18:31:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I think a "today" button would be a massive spoiler :P
18:31:14 <elliott> Vorpal: But you can click the archive.
18:31:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, well... had iwc photo quality not improved since the first strip I might have given up fairly early. Same goes for comics like schlock and so on
18:31:52 <elliott> The artwork isn't usually substantially different from how it was at the start, but the scenes are a lot more varied and colourful at least at the point I'm up to.
18:32:05 <Vorpal> elliott, ah I see. You clicked today too?
18:32:19 <Vorpal> elliott, is the story concluded?
18:32:38 <oerjan> Vorpal: there's clearly a tradeoff there...
18:33:07 <oerjan> avoiding spoilers vs. seeing the current style
18:33:23 <elliott> It's kind of hard to get a sense of style when everything's one-panel, though :P
18:33:27 <elliott> Since it'll be really context-sensitive.
18:33:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, I do not intend to read that webcomic anyway
18:34:24 <oerjan> Vorpal: i was speaking hypothetically anyway. you could embellish the concept (in a way that would alas make no one want to read it) by requiring login and having links only work for people who had already read that far
18:34:57 <oerjan> (login since just using cookies would be horrendously annoying if they cleared)
18:35:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, Anyway compare: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-06-12 and http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-02-18 . And http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3.html (first "proper") and http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
18:35:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, I always do that sort of check if I have the urge to binge :P
18:35:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: i already know dmm has got much better cameras
18:35:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, indeed but I was pointing out the contrast.
18:36:30 <Gregor> You know what I /still/ miss? The desktop PC. By which I mean the desktop /form factor/, with a flat(ish) box and the monitor sitting on top.
18:36:50 <pikhq> That form factor sucked.
18:36:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, eh, they are annoying to service
18:36:55 <pikhq> Makes the monitor way, way too high.
18:36:59 <elliott> Gregor: that form factor fucking terrified me
18:37:04 <elliott> this CRT monitor is so heavy
18:37:11 <elliott> and everything will sparks and death and aah
18:37:29 <Vorpal> I seen that form factor recently. Next to a TFT monitor though
18:37:30 <Gregor> Vorpal: That is true. pikhq: People usually have to prop up their monitors anyway, the desktop just needs to be the right height. elliott: You wtf
18:37:40 <elliott> Gregor: Do you have any idea how heavy CRTs were
18:37:41 <Vorpal> with core 2 duo marking
18:37:48 <elliott> And how flimsy computer case material was
18:37:49 <Gregor> elliott: Friggin' heavy.
18:37:53 <Gregor> elliott: But we don't use them any more.
18:37:54 <Vorpal> elliott, weren't they using steel cases?
18:37:56 <Gregor> elliott: Therefore who cares.
18:38:04 <Sgeo> That form factor is dead?
18:38:15 <Gregor> Sgeo's Pentium II still uses it!
18:38:38 <Sgeo> I've seen that form factor in my high school in 2007
18:38:42 <Sgeo> I was thinking ooh pretty
18:38:50 <elliott> ~~~~PENTIUM II NOSTALGIA~~~~
18:38:59 <Sgeo> Gregor, my Pentium III does not use that form factor
18:39:00 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: That is true. pikhq: People usually have to prop up their monitors anyway, the desktop just needs to be the right height. elliott: You wtf <-- if you get consumer crap you still have to prop up monitors. You basically need to get office equipment to get ones with stands that you can adjust in height
18:39:14 <pikhq> Gregor: I don't want to have eye level at the bottom of my monitor.
18:39:22 <Sgeo> My Pentium II is a computer I never used
18:39:25 <elliott> <Vorpal> I am Swedish and therefore think everyone in the world is freakishly tall.
18:39:37 <Sgeo> I cannabalized it for the CD-RW drive
18:39:44 <Gregor> Swedes are freakishly tall.
18:39:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm tall compared to many at university. Who are also Swedish
18:40:07 <Gregor> pikhq: How retardedly high is your desk or low is your seat?
18:40:23 <pikhq> Gregor: I dunno, it's entirely comfortable with just the monitor sitting here.
18:40:38 <Gregor> pikhq: For the bottom of my monitor to be at eye level, it would have to be elevated like a foot and a half above the desk.
18:40:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway I had an acer monitor I had to put one part of an encyclopedia under for it to be comfortable to use.
18:40:59 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm exaggerating, but only somewhat.
18:41:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, what? I'm just 1.89 m
18:41:45 <oerjan> (there has to be a more phonologically appropriate word than giant, there)
18:41:49 <elliott> How many 1.9 m people do you know?
18:42:03 <Vorpal> elliott, uh... Don't know. Never counted.
18:42:06 <oerjan> vorpal the ogre is closer, but not quite right
18:42:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I know a handful that are taller than me
18:42:37 <elliott> Vorpal: You use one of those distros that uses the Firefox codename for title bars etc. right?
18:42:39 <Phantom_Hoover> 13:03:08 <pikhq> Asztal: To simulate gravity, of course. ← SHELL THEOREM BITCH
18:42:41 <Vorpal> I can think of 5 I saw in class today at university
18:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, arch has it as "Namoroka" yes
18:43:00 <Sgeo> Is Firefox 4 less painful than Firefox 3.x?
18:43:04 <Vorpal> elliott, and the blueish logo
18:43:30 <elliott> 20:45:39 <elliott> "Firefox 4 is code-named Tumucumaque, after the world's largest rainforest park."
18:43:30 <elliott> 20:45:48 <elliott> Oh man, that's gonna be a mouthful in Linux title bars.
18:43:30 <elliott> 20:46:02 <elliott> Do you want to set your default browser to Tumucumaque?
18:44:52 <Vorpal> elliott, oh god, and I had to look at the entry in the task bar to be able to spell the current one
18:44:56 <Vorpal> that one is just insane
18:44:56 <elliott> 07:56:29 <Gregor> Still, my strapon pegging girls are so good at the deep poke.
18:44:56 <elliott> 07:56:41 <Gregor> DEEP poke.
18:44:57 <elliott> 07:56:46 <Gregor> Oh sorry, just thinking about something else.
18:44:57 <elliott> furry_furry_vorpal_sword_girls
18:45:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Wut?
18:45:13 <elliott> Namoroka is OK, Tumucumaque is... X-D
18:45:29 <elliott> Possibly the best argument for "Iceweasel" made yet.
18:45:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I can never remember where the o and r go. Well approximately where. Just not the exact order
18:45:37 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, you said it ages ago. About heaven being made of a giant golden cube.
18:45:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Wut‽
18:46:12 <ais523> I actually ilke the name "Iceweasel"
18:46:21 <ais523> pikhq: gah, I think my interrobang filter is broken
18:46:40 <Vorpal> ais523, you still use that...?
18:46:51 <pikhq> ais523: And your gnaborretni filter?
18:46:54 <ais523> it's still there, but it seems not to be working
18:47:02 <ais523> pikhq: I don't filter out gnaborretnis
18:47:19 <Vorpal> ais523, interrobangs *does* have their uses. I think pikhq used it in a quite appropriate way.
18:47:53 <ais523> yep, but people use them annoyingly on IRC
18:47:54 * elliott watches Gregor get a program up from 7 points to 39.8 points in the logs
18:47:59 <ais523> and a question mark doesn't lose a whole lot of music
18:47:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, how strange. The "⸘" renders crisp for me but the "‽" is kind of blurry
18:48:16 <elliott> <ais523> yep, but people use them annoyingly on IRC
18:48:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, the blurry bit tends to mean missing hinting info in font
18:48:25 <elliott> He's stopped now though. He's REFORMED
18:48:29 <elliott> <Vorpal> pikhq, how strange. The "⸘" renders crisp for me but the "‽" is kind of blurry
18:48:29 <ais523> elliott: how's lance getting on?
18:48:45 <elliott> ais523: It's actually done, apart from one parser bug that I'm going to fix at the same time I integrate lance into report.c.
18:48:55 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but since the current font is crisp and not blurry why the heck would it have ⸘ but not ‽
18:49:04 <ais523> good, there's a bug in defend9.75 I can't fix without killing egobot
18:49:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe your current font doesn't have hinting info for obscure characters.
18:49:12 <Vorpal> elliott, that doesn't make much sense if we assume they aim for more common symbols before more uncommon ones
18:49:14 <elliott> But the fallback for the gnaborrejoweirotni does.
18:49:15 <oerjan> elliott: did you see my comment about making () optional around single characters?
18:49:15 <ais523> because it involves nesting %-based counters
18:49:28 <elliott> (1) it'll be much harder to read
18:49:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well let me try gucharmap to figure out which font it will fallback on
18:49:41 <elliott> >*9+*4 <-- this is just a jumble at first glance
18:49:46 <Vorpal> elliott, do you happen to know where those symbols are?
18:49:52 <oerjan> elliott: hm maybe you are right
18:49:55 <elliott> Vorpal: You can search can't you?
18:50:00 <Sgeo> elliott, J is just a worse jumble at first glance
18:50:03 <elliott> So just search for interrobang and gnaborretni
18:50:28 <elliott> Man ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys has had an eventful life :P
18:50:58 <Vorpal> elliott, strange... both are in Dejavu Sans Mono, which is the font this terminal is set to as well...
18:51:07 <Vorpal> I guess one is just missing hinting info then
18:51:11 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/RGTh <--- new version of esolangs.el, with BF Joust support
18:51:16 <pikhq> http://www.broadbandmap.gov/technology Map of broadband availability in the US.
18:51:33 <ais523> sprunge appears not to have elisp highlighting
18:51:36 * oerjan notes that (+)*4 is actually longer than its expansion
18:51:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> So just search for interrobang and gnaborretni <-- wait what... is that latter one actually the official unicode name for the codepoint?
18:51:45 <elliott> bah, perhaps Debian patches freetype
18:51:47 <pikhq> Yes, that is "any broadband at all".
18:51:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, it's GNABORRETNI.
18:51:55 <ais523> although there's a mention that the Scheme highlighter could probably be adapted
18:52:14 <elliott> ais523: Who uses the highlighting links? :P
18:52:35 <ais523> I thought that name came from when someone stuck a stray right-to-left-override character into the Wikipedia article on punctuation
18:52:43 <ais523> it's semantically correct
18:52:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, elliott it is "U+2E18 INVERTED INTERROBANG = gnaborretni" according to gucharmap. I think the upper case one is the official name.
18:52:56 <elliott> ais523: what, sending elisp code as HTML that doesn't even copy right is semantically correct?
18:53:12 <elliott> setting the content type to text/x-emacs-lisp so the viewer could handle it would of course be semantic
18:53:13 <ais523> elliott: there's a raw version too
18:53:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't know where the bit after the = comes from.
18:53:22 <elliott> Vorpal: oh looks like it changed
18:53:27 <ais523> the highlighted version should probably be changed to have a link to it
18:53:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: Probably an alias.
18:53:39 <elliott> fileformat.info had it as the title
18:53:45 <pikhq> elliott: Unicode never ever changes the actual name of a codepoint.
18:53:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm going to check that though
18:54:02 <elliott> It _was_ GNABORRETNI on http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2e18/index.htm.
18:54:08 <pikhq> elliott: It may change the preferred way of referring to it, but the name does not change.
18:54:11 <Vorpal> elliott, is that the official source
18:54:23 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a very reliable source...
18:54:23 <pikhq> There are even permanent typos.
18:54:26 <elliott> just an import of the official data.
18:54:30 <Vorpal> also is the unicode standard open, semi-open or closed?
18:54:42 <elliott> lol @ closed character set standard
18:54:48 <elliott> "What does this codepoint represent?" "Nobody knows."
18:55:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well I wouldn't put it past someone like IEEE to make you pay for such a standard
18:55:16 <Vorpal> elliott, of course everyone would know anyway, but for official source and such
18:55:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode6.0.0/ Here's the official standard.
18:55:50 <elliott> Vorpal: I believe ISO 8601 is actually for-pay, if you can believe that.
18:55:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, it is trivial to find C99 standard, but ISO (not IEEE in this case) still charges you for it
18:55:53 <elliott> 7.0 is the official standard
18:55:58 <elliott> and probably what changed it
18:56:24 <pikhq> elliott: Not my fault that the Unicode Consortium hasn't published 7.0.
18:56:26 <Vorpal> elliott, ISO 8601... Lets see which one is that. I can't say I'm good at memorizing numbers...
18:56:39 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, 7.0 isn't the latest official standard.
18:56:46 <pikhq> elliott: 6.0 came out October 2010.
18:56:56 <elliott> Well, it was GNABORRETNI in 5 then.
18:56:57 <pikhq> 7.0 is the current WIP.
18:57:08 <pikhq> Well, either that or a minor revision.
18:57:52 <Vorpal> elliott, linked from the link you gave me under code charts: http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2E00.pdf
18:58:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Yah, now look at 5.0.
18:58:13 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: Yah, now look at 5.0.
18:58:28 <elliott> pikhq can find it or something
18:59:18 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> lol @ closed character set standard <elliott> "What does this codepoint represent?" "Nobody knows."
18:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, this link goes to a single pdf file. The link title reads: Archival Code Charts (5.0.0, 33 MB)
18:59:29 <Vorpal> no I'm not going to check
18:59:37 <elliott> That's IMPOSSIBLE to load!
18:59:42 <elliott> It would take like ... a minute!
19:00:05 <HackEgo> 313) <elliott> lol @ closed character set standard <elliott> "What does this codepoint represent?" "Nobody knows."
19:00:40 <Vorpal> elliott, no but I'm scared of what my pdf reader might do after what it did when searching through IEEE 1003.1-2010
19:00:54 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed evince
19:00:54 <elliott> Handles huge PDFs perfectly :P
19:01:03 <Vorpal> elliott, this was a while ago though
19:01:15 <elliott> It searches incrementally at least now...
19:01:41 <elliott> Argh, yep, Debian MUST patch freetype.
19:01:47 <Vorpal> also I typoed that date above
19:01:51 <Vorpal> should be 2008 of course
19:01:55 <Vorpal> there is no 2010 version
19:02:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Argh, yep, Debian MUST patch freetype. <-- hm?
19:02:45 <Vorpal> just check what patches it uses
19:02:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Because it loosk totally different to this Arch freetype :-P
19:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't say I notice a difference between my ubuntu and my arch system... Probably just different settings in /etc/fontconfig or such
19:03:40 <Vorpal> err /etc/fonts it seems
19:03:55 <quintopia> Vorpal: since when did i say i hated shudder?
19:03:55 <elliott> Vorpal: It isn't, I've already tweaked those. The hinting is different.
19:04:16 <elliott> In Debian, e.g. "o" in full-greyscale-hinted DejaVu Sans is sharp; in Arch, it has some blur on the inside.
19:04:27 <elliott> Well, that's the most noticeable difference.
19:04:46 <Vorpal> elliott, checking abs it seems that arch patches it's freetype.
19:04:57 <Vorpal> haven't checked what those do yet
19:04:58 <Vorpal> $ ls /var/abs/extra/freetype2/
19:04:59 <Vorpal> PKGBUILD freetype-2.2.1-enable-valid.patch freetype-2.3.0-enable-spr.patch
19:05:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I thought it was meant to be LINUX WITH A PACKAGE MANAGER ZOMG
19:05:09 <elliott> ONLY PATCHES WHEN ABSOLUTELY NEEDED
19:05:24 <pikhq> Maybe Arch enables the "proper" hinter, and DejaVu Sans isn't hinted?
19:05:45 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. In total it patches 3 lines
19:05:53 <pikhq> (I'm pretty sure that Debian's packages aren't young enough to have the proper hinter from upstream yet.)
19:05:58 <Vorpal> one in a .h file and two in a modules.cfg
19:05:59 <pikhq> (the patent on it expired last year)
19:05:59 <elliott> pikhq: Debian has the proper hinter.
19:06:02 <elliott> pikhq: DejaVu Sans is very much hinted.
19:06:11 <elliott> Nobody's used the autohinter in years.
19:06:25 <Vorpal> elliott, also that is somewhat an exaggeration. It would be true however to say that it patches *much* less than most other distros I used.
19:07:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: DejaVu Sans is very much hinted. <-- except for the ‽... No I don't know why
19:07:19 <pikhq> elliott: Using anything but the autohinter was illegal in the US until a few months ago.
19:07:27 <elliott> pikhq: Debian don't give a shit.
19:07:33 <elliott> I know the autohinter when I see it. Debian have not used it in a long time.
19:07:36 <elliott> (I know it because it looks like SHIT.)
19:07:43 <pikhq> elliott: Could've sworn they did.
19:08:00 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway http://sprunge.us/MMaj
19:08:10 <pikhq> Hmm. On the other hand, they've had MP3 stuff in for a while, and MP3's still patented.
19:08:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't have the energy to figure out what those changes do
19:08:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Not much it seems.
19:08:29 <pikhq> Perhaps they just went "Screw you, US, and your crazy shit."
19:08:38 <elliott> pikhq: Well, MP3 is in non-free, I doubt freetype was in non-free X-D
19:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and it just calls ./configure --prefix=/usr
19:08:46 <Vorpal> elliott, no other fancy parameters
19:08:48 <elliott> (at least i think mp3 is in non-free)
19:09:08 <elliott> This calls for Investigation.
19:09:59 <Vorpal> elliott, even if debian patches it could easily just be a case of configuration. I have no idea where /etc/fonts config file stuff is documented but from some looking at it, it seems rather flexible
19:10:17 <Vorpal> elliott, also xml sadly
19:10:57 <elliott> ARGH POINTER ACCELERATION WHY DO YOU EXIST
19:11:02 <elliott> Who thought pointer acceleration was a good idea.
19:11:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I know you will hate this for your ~/.fonts.conf but this is what I use. You could easily change the values in it though to suite what you need. http://sprunge.us/VegX
19:11:11 <olsner> elliott: I put it in there to annoy you
19:11:30 <elliott> Vorpal: All those settings there can be configuredw ith the GNOME fonts preferences :P
19:11:40 <elliott> There are far more in-depth options and those are what probably differ here.
19:11:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I had problems with firefox not giving a shit about gnome settings fairly recently
19:11:53 <Vorpal> half a year ago or so I think
19:12:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Remove your local font config if that happens. I think they conflict or something
19:12:08 <elliott> Also check against "xrdb -query"
19:12:17 <Vorpal> elliott, *adding* that .fonts.conf was what solved the firefox issue
19:12:44 <Vorpal> elliott, since it now works I'm not sure I see the point of removing it. Not mending what isn't broken and so on...
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19:13:50 <Vorpal> elliott, also that tells me I have 86 dpi (no I measured and it is off, it is 96±2) and I want antialias, hinting, full hinting and no subpixel stuff
19:14:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm same command I gues
19:14:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, whereabouts in gnome?
19:14:45 <elliott_> Same place you set other font shit
19:14:54 <elliott_> Now to figure out whether Debian patched freetype or fontconfig
19:14:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, shouldn't DPI be in "monitors"
19:15:07 <elliott_> No, because it only affects fonts.
19:15:25 <Vorpal> elliott_, but what if you have a dual head setup where DPI differs between the monitors....
19:15:35 <elliott_> You're fucked; that's not GNOME's fault.
19:15:46 <elliott_> (fizzie can tell you about his fun trying to have RGB subpixel on one monitor and VRGB on another.)
19:16:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes I know that
19:16:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, but DPI is not quite the same as different subpixel order
19:16:29 * elliott_ gawps at Debian's freetype patches
19:16:41 <Vorpal> elliott_, also dpi affects gimp if you turn off "pixel by pixel" mode or whatever it is called
19:16:45 <Vorpal> so you are technically wrong
19:16:50 <elliott_> I doubt it looks at the fontconfig DPI
19:16:58 <elliott_> Vorpal: Too many to look at X-P
19:17:08 <elliott_> "Namoroka will try to restore your tabs and windows when it restarts."
19:17:10 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes why don't *both* get it from the X server
19:17:11 <elliott_> WHY ARE YOU EVEN TELLING ME THAT
19:17:20 <elliott_> THERE IS NO POINT TO INFORMING ME OF THAT FACT
19:17:48 <elliott_> If you're trying to convince wary people that it's OK to restart, you won't lose anything, then it fails,
19:17:54 <elliott_> because you have to click "Restart Namoroka" to see that dialogue.
19:18:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway it could be hard to restore if you are in a stateful page. like one you got from a POST query
19:18:35 <Vorpal> elliott_, and knowing how people misuse GET anything with a ? might possibly be dangerous as well
19:18:48 <elliott_> I wonder if Medium and Full hinting have EVER done anything different to each other.
19:18:53 <Vorpal> elliott_, well yes. But that isn't how it is used sadly.
19:18:55 <elliott_> They have been identical in every configuration I have tried.
19:19:19 <Vorpal> elliott_, I noticed a difference I know
19:19:23 <Vorpal> maybe it depends on other options
19:21:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, in this they look different http://ompldr.org/vN2d4NA
19:21:24 <Vorpal> based on the previews or whatever
19:22:01 <elliott_> And now to solve the eternal problem of "Firefox, dude, why are you making fonts tiny".
19:22:21 <elliott_> The difference never shows up in practice.
19:23:09 <Ilari> Minimal subsequence subset of powers of 3 in base 10: 1, 3, 9, 27, .... (next is >3^1000)
19:23:50 <Vorpal> resolution: 90x88 dots per inch
19:23:58 <Vorpal> it is wrong. I measured :P
19:24:09 <Vorpal> and I have square pixels as far as I can tell
19:24:50 * Phantom_Hoover was told to Google http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me%C4%91ugorje
19:25:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you were told to google an url?
19:25:29 <ais523> I sometimes use Google to find backlinks for an URL, to decide whether to click on it or not
19:25:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not quite as hilarious then
19:25:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, the Vatican apparently has investigative committees.
19:26:03 <Ilari> For powers of 7 in base 10 I get 1, 7, 49, 343, ... (>7^1000)
19:26:25 <elliott_> resolution: 97x97 dots per inch
19:26:25 <elliott_> I specifically configured 96, you stupid machine.
19:26:25 <elliott_> Bleh, all this does is make me want Kitten more.
19:26:25 <elliott_> I wonder what a good solver would be for a package manager to use.
19:26:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, well to tell the truth I haven't configured X to specific one
19:27:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes... "<elliott_> $ xdpyinfo | grep resolution" to "<elliott_> resolution: 97x97 dots per inch" took a couple of minutes
19:27:29 <ais523> sorry, that wasn't quite instant because I don't have a perfect reaction time
19:27:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, you were spaced out for about 3 minutes
19:28:24 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, the Vatican apparently has investigative committees. <-- eh?
19:28:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, by the way where did you configure X to use 96x96
19:28:47 <Ilari> For powers of 13 in base 10: 1, 4826809, 3937376385699289, >13^1000
19:28:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, it wouldn't be font settings I presume
19:29:01 <Ilari> Oops, 1, 4826809, 3937376385699289, >13^2000
19:29:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, I doubt that will help much. And with X who knows where stuff are nowdays
19:29:18 <elliott_> xorg.conf.d THIS LOOKS LIKE FUN
19:29:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, once upon a time we had xorg.conf (and other names before that) and it was easy to find
19:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> [[In March 2010, the Holy See announced that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was forming an investigative commission, composed of bishops, theologians, and other experts, under the leadership of Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the Pope's former Vicar General for the Diocese of Rome. The Commission is expected to report any findings to the Congregation, which has responsibility for any possible judgment on the case
19:29:35 <elliott_> i used to think that there could be nothing worse than xorg.conf
19:29:39 <elliott_> BUT YOU GUYS TOOK THAT AS A CHALLENGE
19:29:44 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: FLOODING OF A WHOLE TWO LINES
19:29:55 <elliott_> (says the guy who's flooded the entire funge-98 spec)
19:30:08 <ais523> wait, someone posted the whole funge-98 spec in-channel?
19:30:15 <ais523> and freenode didn't stop it somehow?
19:30:16 <elliott_> ais523: That's what communal readings are!
19:30:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, but then came HAL and destroyed it all. And After HAL was brought down came the strangeness of the current config format that no one seems to understand particularly well.
19:30:25 <elliott_> Throttling came with the new ircd.
19:30:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:30:35 <Vorpal> I'm certainly all confused by it
19:30:57 <elliott_> ais523: It was after Quadrescence had been persistently trolling for near a whole day with no signs of stopping :P
19:31:16 <elliott_> I think I adequately conveyed the original coherency of the spec.
19:31:18 <ais523> and that makes it alright?
19:31:20 <elliott_> especially because some parts got duplicated.
19:31:34 <elliott_> ais523: Hey, I totally had cpressey's approval.
19:31:38 <elliott_> That's like a presidential pardon.
19:31:40 <Vorpal> elliott_, the old ircd rate limited as well
19:31:41 <Sgeo> I think I was yelling at elliott_
19:31:41 <elliott_> Except not from the president.
19:31:46 <elliott_> Vorpal: Rate limited but did not drop messages.
19:31:50 <Vorpal> elliott_, in fact more than the current one sometimes.
19:31:53 <Vorpal> elliott_, the new one what?
19:31:59 <Sgeo> I think I was the only one doing that
19:32:13 <Vorpal> elliott_, ... what that breaks the protocol spec
19:32:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, are you *sure* it just isn't some bug?
19:32:29 <elliott_> Vorpal: It tells you (see server tab) if it does it. but it's really annoying.
19:32:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, even so it breaks the spec.
19:32:39 <elliott_> I keep having to number my lines and saying "EOF" after long pastes.
19:32:53 <Ilari> Heh. If I activated commit notifications from one project to another IRC channel, unless cia.vc bots omit notifications if there are too many, it would trigger notification flood lasting for about 3.5 minutes (assuming cia.vc bots won't flood themselves out).
19:33:05 <elliott_> I was trying to get the message to show
19:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, incidentally, you can't pick on me for interrobangs, Mr. Unicode Ellipses.
19:33:25 <elliott_> When was the last time I used a Unicode ellipse :P
19:33:25 <oerjan> <elliott_> IRCING FROM INSIDE A VM <-- OMG THAT MEANS YOU'RE A SIMULATED BEING!
19:33:40 <Vorpal> Ilari, how do you figure? It doesn't send out old ones from before activating afaik
19:34:01 <Vorpal> Ilari, also it limits how many lines of a commit message it includes
19:34:36 <elliott_> Rapid commit frequency presumably
19:34:39 <Ilari> Well, it would resume where it left off (had notifications another way but they broke). And there are 108 commits after that.
19:35:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, btw why are you interested in arch atm?
19:35:10 <elliott_> Vorpal: I'm installing things in VMs :-P
19:35:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, also pacman isn't too bad. Not the best package manager no. But there are far worse
19:35:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'd say the one in sourcemage for example
19:35:28 <elliott_> Maybe if pacman installed from AUR I'd hate it less
19:35:31 <Vorpal> that one is just laughable
19:35:37 <elliott_> Vorpal: Debian irritated me to hell when both testing and sid wouldn't install properly into this VM :P
19:35:45 <elliott_> Also Debian's GNOME has more shit than I want.
19:35:45 <Ilari> Well, I set up repository for that that way (right now it contains commits that were before annoucements or after annoucements broke). But haven't enabled annoucements yet.
19:35:45 <oerjan> <Ilari> Minimal subsequence subset of powers of 3 in base 10: 1, 3, 9, 27, .... (next is >3^1000) <-- yay, alas that probably means finding out there are no more is yet another possibly unsolvable problem...
19:35:52 <elliott_> I would go with Xfce, but xfwm has deal-breaker bugs for me.
19:36:05 <elliott_> oerjan: BUT IS MATHEMATICS READY FOR IT
19:36:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, I find that GNOME's GNOME has more shit than I want these days
19:36:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yeah yeah, but it's acceptable.
19:36:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, because it is upstream?
19:36:36 <elliott_> Just because it's not too bad :P
19:36:48 <elliott_> And as I said, Xfce has deal-breaker bugs.
19:36:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, you could just hand pick which packages from gnome you want though
19:36:59 <elliott_> That's a pain in the arse for little gain.
19:37:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, examples of such bugs?
19:37:14 <elliott_> Vorpal: The main one is that scrolling a window in xfwm focuses and raises it.
19:37:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm surely you could patch away that
19:37:31 <elliott_> Which differs from the behaviour of Windows, OS X, metacity, whatever KDE calls its WM these days, openbox, ..., everything, ...
19:37:44 <elliott_> Vorpal: Probably, but it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their attention to detail.
19:37:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'm pretty sure twm would do that sort of stuff.
19:38:06 <elliott_> Oh, twm, great thing to look up to :P
19:38:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, or they just don't like the way everyone else does it
19:38:34 <elliott_> Well, it could at least be an option, because scrolling raising a window is damn irritating.
19:38:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, not saying I think it is good, but the maintainer might like it...
19:38:50 <elliott_> I scroll webpages in the background all the time when on IRC :P
19:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, same as we got stuck with silly bold font for bold in konsole in kde 4
19:39:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: Then that's a deal-breaker design decision :P
19:39:20 <elliott_> Ah yes, bold monospaced fonts. AKA: "The stupidest idea."
19:39:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, kde 3 had good taste to have an option to make it mean brighter colour instead
19:39:30 <Vorpal> like everyone sane does it
19:39:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, not that gnome terminal is any better here
19:40:05 <elliott_> Only perverse programs send bold anyway
19:40:45 <Ilari> Then there is this classical problem: Is there period hailstone sequence (starting from positive number) can enter that isn't 1,4,2? Is there hailstone sequence (again starting from positive number) that isn't bounded?
19:40:54 <oerjan> <elliott_> oerjan: BUT IS MATHEMATICS READY FOR IT <- um that was sort of the point
19:41:09 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Only perverse programs send bold anyway <-- err, wait what?
19:41:17 <Vorpal> it is commonly used as intensity change
19:41:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, $PS1 commonly
19:41:42 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway that is how your vts will render it
19:41:53 <Vorpal> elliott_, try echo -e '\e[1mfoo\e[0mbar'
19:42:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, I like coloured one, make it easier to see in a mass of grey text output
19:42:18 <elliott_> Except for like vim, and you can disable that.
19:42:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, pretty sure emacs does too
19:42:43 <Vorpal> possibly some ncurses stuff too
19:43:27 <elliott_> OK, so if this system wasn't Arch, I probably wouldn't mind this setup. Probably. Argh, I hate computers.
19:43:33 <elliott_> Maybe I'll just use Windows 95. Forever.
19:43:48 <elliott_> Wonder if GHC would run on it.
19:46:10 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Because nobody can fuck up Windows 95 in the next update.
19:46:21 <elliott_> And unlike some ancient Linux version it can still run a modern browser :P
19:46:36 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but they called it Windows 98.
19:46:50 <Vorpal> elliott_, btw there is a "funny" thing in one computer lab at university
19:46:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, they all run xp pro there.
19:47:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, haven't got it it yet
19:47:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, here is the "funny" bit: when you unlock screen or log out it blue screens about 3 times out of 5
19:47:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, and reboots before anyone has time to read the error message
19:48:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, and the it service department wants to have us read the message when we call them
19:49:31 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:49:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, they promised to go have a look at it last week, but well, so far nothing happened...
19:49:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Put Linux on them and skin it to look like XP Pro
19:50:08 <Vorpal> elliott, they are set to do some crazy PXE stuff
19:50:21 <elliott> Sad thing: Making Linux's UI look and act like XP would make it more usable than KDE 4 and GNOME 3.
19:50:48 <Vorpal> elliott, when it reboots it goes into some stuff about that after POST, then it reboots a second time to the POST screen and then boots into windows
19:51:04 <elliott> EXCUSE ME I AM BUSY SADDENING
19:51:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well the boxes are setup to use classical windows theme
19:51:32 <Vorpal> I can't stand the bubbly XP-look
19:52:25 <ais523> Vorpal: a toy company in the UK
19:52:36 <ais523> who make toys with a similar style to the default XP theme
19:52:48 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, what *googles*
19:52:53 <ais523> actually, I'm not sure if it's the UK or US
19:53:19 <Vorpal> ais523, based on google image search I have to say that default xp isn't *quite* that bad.
19:54:03 <ais523> I don't mind it, but I prefer the 95-style look
19:54:28 <elliott> Vorpal: that's the standard name for it :P
19:54:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I think of the classical xp theme as the windows 2000-look
19:54:44 <ais523> I don't think I used 2000
19:54:46 <Vorpal> ais523, besides it is closer to that than 95
19:54:50 <Vorpal> if you actually look at it
19:55:01 <elliott> Windows Classic = 95 (colours)
19:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right. I use the 2000-one
19:55:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I never liked the gradients of 9x's title bars.
19:56:13 <elliott> I disable the gradients on Windows Standard
19:56:29 <Vorpal> elliott, i'm pretty sure Windows Standard doesn't have gradients?
19:56:49 <Vorpal> elliott, not quite as bad as 9x ones though
19:57:00 <elliott> http://media.tomshardware.com/2006/05/31/windows_vista/aero_3.png
19:57:06 <elliott> If that loads, hasn't yet for me
19:59:13 <elliott> hmm, an ski self interp would be fun
20:04:16 <elliott> although otoh an LC one is probably easier but done before :)
20:05:54 <Vorpal> elliott, is there no LC -> ski compiler?
20:08:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought I had that problem again with this connection.
20:09:06 <Phantom_Hoover> The one where existing connections stayed open but I couldn't make new ones.
20:09:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I encountered that a few times. Generally restarting the ADSL modem helped
20:10:11 <Vorpal> possibly the NAT state in it got bugged somehow
20:10:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm stuck halfway up the Antrim coast and the only connections I can get are borrowed.
20:11:32 <Vorpal> kill(2) is so badly named
20:11:42 <Vorpal> since it allows sending non-terminating signals
20:11:52 <elliott> Yay, looks like my interpreter model is sound.
20:11:52 <Vorpal> same goes for kill(1) by extension
20:12:04 <Vorpal> though at least kill(1) defaults to a terminating signal
20:12:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. sendsig maybe?
20:12:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, at least for the system call
20:12:49 <fizzie> It could be raise() if that wouldn't already be defined as basically kill+getpid.
20:13:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, though that is also a bit strange name if not acting on the current process
20:13:52 <Vorpal> anyway it isn't feasible to change it now...
20:14:22 <elliott> Just needs a definition of eq, which will be ugly.
20:14:24 <fizzie> "ding", because that's what you do, you ding someone with a signal.
20:15:02 <Vorpal> elliott, you should prove it in coq
20:15:16 <elliott> I tested it in Haskell, that's good enough.
20:16:37 <elliott> (\e' x. eval (replace (\f x. x) x e'))
20:16:43 <elliott> (\e' F G H. F (replace (\f x. f (n f x)) v e'))
20:16:45 <elliott> (\f v F G H. G (replace n v f) (replace n v x))
20:16:47 <elliott> (\m F G H. H ((eq n m) v (var m)))
20:17:38 <Vorpal> coppro, hm, I don't know
20:20:15 -!- nescience has joined.
20:27:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I found that an issue with archive binging is that when you do catch up you find the sudden slow down of pace jarring
20:27:48 <Vorpal> elliott, happened for me on bowth iwc and schlock I know
20:29:47 <elliott> Yeah, I often forget to check after finishing a binge :P
20:29:58 <elliott> It's especially bad if the comic only updates like every three weeks.
20:30:13 <elliott> Because it becomes all "dude, this thing is so bloody slow".
20:30:16 <coppro> obviously the correct thing is comic books
20:32:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> It's especially bad if the comic only updates like every three weeks. <-- even stuff that updates just a few times a week is bad
20:32:39 <Vorpal> elliott, case in point: freefall
20:33:06 <Vorpal> I actually haven't read freefall for the last year or so
20:33:14 <Vorpal> if only I knew where I left off
20:33:22 <Vorpal> I might binge the new stuff
20:34:01 <elliott> OK, that's the last straw, to hell with Emacs, I'm writing leaden.
20:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, what happened...
20:34:25 <elliott> c-mode, especially, is terrible.
20:34:38 <Vorpal> elliott, what's so bad about c-mode?
20:34:46 <elliott> No, I don't want reindenting to put my \ macro continuation chars on column 34985734895734 or however far into the stratosphere you think they should be.
20:34:52 <Vorpal> elliott, though come to think of it... I usually use kate for C coding...
20:34:56 <elliott> Indentation affects the START of a line, so get your grubby mitts off of my code.
20:35:04 <elliott> ais523: That's nice; I don't :P
20:35:09 <ais523> but maybe I'm used to the way Emacs works by now
20:35:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:35:19 <elliott> Maybe if there was an obvious way to configure that behaviour I wouldn't mind.
20:35:19 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:35:27 <elliott> Also: haskell-mode has been a bit stupid recently.
20:35:33 <elliott> I get that tabbing cycles through all possible indentations.
20:35:39 <elliott> But couldn't it omit the really ridiculous ones that nobody would ever go to?
20:35:55 <elliott> I can type in the indentation manually if I really want to go there. ...or I could, if haskell-mode didn't try to be all smart about indentation and not let you override it.
20:36:24 <elliott> Also: Seriously Emacs? I can't tell you to erase N spaces in one backspace? You know, the thing that keeps manual indentation with spaces sane? Even TextMate can do that!
20:36:35 <elliott> (If you link me to some elisp that hacks it in, my point is proven.)
20:37:08 <olsner> I just use softtabstop=4
20:37:09 <elliott> olsner: And no, vim can't do the things I want either :P
20:37:14 <fizzie> I don't really like the multi-line macro indentation either; it keeps mangling \s, yes, but it also feels as if does something strange every now and then.
20:37:24 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, it's very rickety.
20:37:33 <elliott> fizzie: You might want to do C-c C-l to turn off "electric mode".
20:37:40 <elliott> That at least stops it fucking up macros when you don't press TAB.
20:37:41 * pikhq tries to figure out WTF is causing the connection droppage.
20:37:44 <fizzie> Maybe they're trying to subtly discourage you from writing horrible twenty-line macros.
20:38:49 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... I'd like emacs with something like good autocompletion.
20:39:17 <elliott> Welllll... on one hand, regular autocompletion is a sign of a bad API. On the other hand, it would be nice not to have to google for "gtk text view" or something whenever I want to know the methods.
20:39:19 <Vorpal> elliott, think intellisense style. Even though I dislike MSVC, intellisense is quite well implemented.
20:39:37 <elliott> Intellisense is good, but only if you have to press tab to pop it up; automatic intellisense = annoyance.
20:39:38 <olsner> Vorpal: no it's not :)
20:40:02 <elliott> Oh, and if I could type "gtk.<TAB>srcvw" and have it fuzzy-match "SourceView", well, that would just be dandy.
20:40:02 <olsner> granted, it's the best I've seen for C++, but that's just because every other similar thing is so much worse
20:40:08 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. And showing parameter docs for something like foldl would be useful. If you notice:
20:40:09 <Vorpal> foldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
20:40:11 <Vorpal> foldr :: (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
20:40:22 <Vorpal> the a/b switch always confuse me
20:40:28 <Vorpal> can never remember which one uses which
20:40:37 <elliott> haskell-mode does that but only in the minibuffer. and with a delay.
20:41:29 <elliott> Let's see if I can't make these non-modal keybindings useful without stacking twenty on top of each other like Emacs.
20:41:46 <elliott> (Fun exercise: count how many one-character-plus-modifier Emacs keybindings that NOBODY EVER USES BECAUSE THEY'RE USELESS.)
20:41:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> Intellisense is good, but only if you have to press tab to pop it up; automatic intellisense = annoyance. <-- I found that in C# (yes I hate it too, but at least it is better than C++, had to use both in various courses so far) automatic intellisense isn't that annoying at all. In older msvc it used to get in the way but they made it pop up up in a less obtrusive way I think in recent versions
20:41:55 <elliott> (Now count the more-than-one-character-plus-modifier keybindings that people use regularly.
20:42:19 <Vorpal> elliott, like it no longer pops up right on top of the other code you want to see.
20:42:25 <fizzie> MonoDevelop's intellisense-alike wasn't particularly good.
20:42:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed, I don't really dig it. Though it got better as well in recent versions
20:42:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, still mono lacks proper API docs so it is fairly useless there
20:43:01 <ais523> I find the equivalent in NetBeans works pretty well, although if you tell it to not autopopup the key sequence needed is a little crazy
20:43:04 <ais523> control-space or something
20:43:04 <elliott> I would like it if editors would figure out the damn indentation width from the file's contents.
20:43:12 <elliott> That would make quick edits to existing code much less painful.
20:43:21 <ais523> elliott: tab=8, obviously!
20:43:34 <elliott> ais523: And everybody indents with single tabs!
20:43:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> haskell-mode does that but only in the minibuffer. and with a delay. <-- the minibuffer is quite an annoying way to do it.
20:43:40 <elliott> The Wonderful World of ais523.
20:43:49 <olsner> elliott: I read about something that did just that, figure out editor settings based on the existing indentation
20:43:56 <elliott> Incidentally, the minibuffer being a buffer has always annoyed me more than it helps...
20:43:59 <ais523> elliott: no, four spaces for one indent, one tab for two, is AFAICT the standard in older files
20:44:08 <elliott> AFAICT it would be more usable if it were special-cased.
20:44:09 <Vorpal> <ais523> control-space or something <-- I think that is what msvc has for manual pop up
20:44:12 <elliott> ais523: There is no such standard.
20:44:19 <Vorpal> ais523, or ctrl-shift-space for parameter docs
20:44:20 <elliott> Everyone indents a different way. (well, except in Python)
20:44:21 <ais523> anything I've seen more than twenty years old or so has been indented like that
20:44:31 <elliott> ais523: Unix was indented with single tabs from the start...
20:44:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> I would like it if editors would figure out the damn indentation width from the file's contents. <-- would rock yeah.
20:44:42 <ais523> elliott: I haven't seen that
20:44:50 <Vorpal> elliott, or if emacs and vim could read it's other mode line thingies
20:44:56 <Vorpal> that would be useful too
20:45:03 <elliott> Vorpal: *each other's; yes, that would be nice. Though I don't like putting them in my files.
20:45:07 <ais523> vim has a mode line thingy?
20:45:15 <elliott> It's basically a "set" line.
20:45:20 <elliott> I wonder if the things it can set are restricted. Probably.
20:45:20 <ais523> I know I tried to do a mode line in BF Joust, but couldn't figure out how to do so reliably
20:45:29 <ais523> because the syntax involves writing -*- inside a comment
20:45:33 <ais523> and ()*0 comments don't work in egojoust
20:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and at least extract some tab stop stuff. And possibly guess at what c-mode could mean
20:45:43 <elliott> Would be fun to enable vi compatibility in everyone's editor :-)
20:45:49 <ais523> in Emacs, there's a whitelist /and/ a blacklist, and things in between are prompted, IIRC
20:45:57 <elliott> Vorpal: You should try leaden when I have it running again (lost the old code), it's quite nice :P
20:46:01 <Vorpal> elliott, sure vim could not be expected to understand the full range of stuff you can do in eamcs mode line
20:46:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you lost old code?
20:46:09 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, and vim's modelines can be also at the end of the file, which is sometimes nice. (I think Emacs only looked for -*- format lines at the start?)
20:46:14 <Vorpal> elliott, did this teach you anything?
20:46:15 <ais523> one of my favourites: auto-indent mode is one of the things you're not supposed to put on a modeline
20:46:21 <ais523> fizzie: Emacs has a different format for end-of-file modelines
20:46:26 <ais523> which I can never remember
20:46:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't trust the Ubuntu installer not to delete partitions without indicating that it will?
20:46:40 <ais523> so, I went and invented an ais523-auto-indent-mode setting
20:46:42 <fizzie> ais523: Wasn't it something more verbose?
20:46:44 <ais523> which is ignored by most people's Emacses
20:46:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I was hoping it would include "vcs"
20:46:51 <ais523> umm, auto-fill, not auto-indent
20:46:57 <elliott> Hey, hey, I use VCSes, just not in project infancy.
20:47:00 <Vorpal> elliott, also backups of course
20:47:02 <ais523> it meant "this file should automatically wrap lines if edited by ais523"
20:47:15 <elliott> I'll start doing backups when I can convince myself that I do anything worth the cost.
20:47:42 <ais523> elliott: just create a tarball of everything that can't trivially be redownloaded, and copy it to a USB stick
20:47:42 <elliott> I have login access to one ssh server and I use a password for it (and never use it)
20:48:14 <olsner> YOUR THE INTERNET MONAD
20:48:32 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: just create a tarball of everything that can't trivially be redownloaded, and copy it to a USB stick <-- I do that for the most important things (ssh, gpg, keyring, firefox profile, stuff like that)
20:48:42 <Vorpal> and I also have a more conventional backup of course
20:48:48 <ais523> Vorpal: I do that for everything
20:48:55 <elliott> olsner: No, your wrong bitch. (it's been so long, am i getting my /prog/ memes right?)
20:48:58 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't have a large enough usb stick
20:48:59 <ais523> it's a case of making a file listing all the directories to back up that way
20:49:07 <ais523> it comes to less than 5GB to me, compressed
20:49:14 <Vorpal> ais523, /dev/mapper/array-home has 60 GB used
20:49:14 <elliott> hmm, there's no comma is there
20:49:18 <ais523> and that's tiny by USB stick standards nowadays
20:49:29 <ais523> Vorpal: but most of the large files are things like downloads
20:49:30 <elliott> I can't imagine anyone storing 60 Gio of anything but mostly media
20:49:39 <elliott> for a start, you don't need to back up IRC logs...
20:49:41 <ais523> source code is tiny; binaries can be rather larger
20:49:54 <elliott> ais523: I wouldn't put backing up downloads past Vorpal ...
20:49:54 <Vorpal> elliott, uh I archive those on cd after a year :P
20:49:57 <ais523> elliott: logs of /queries?
20:50:04 <ais523> elliott: backing up source makes sense
20:50:08 <elliott> Vorpal: You realise CDs are ridiculously fragile?
20:50:08 <ais523> but it's tiny compared to everything else
20:50:14 <elliott> ais523: no, of other people's projects
20:50:16 <olsner> elliott: I don't know if you're getting them right since i don't know the memes
20:50:19 <ais523> ah, that makes more sense
20:50:24 <elliott> olsner: That's your own personal problem.
20:50:34 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but they are not only on cd
20:50:35 <elliott> ais523: "Welp, just downloaded Apache 1.3.3... better back it up in case it ever disappears from the internet and I need it."
20:50:37 <ais523> although, if I'm editing other people's code even slightly, I normally back up the whole tree rather than the diff because it's easier
20:50:41 <ais523> this was mostly a problem for gcc-bf
20:50:43 <Vorpal> elliott, they used to be
20:50:48 <ais523> where the rest of gcc is rather large
20:50:48 <olsner> elliott: hmm, or is it a lack of problem?
20:50:50 * elliott can't think of any reason to use a CD instead of a USB stick nowadays
20:50:54 <ais523> and also, I think it breaks with more recent gcc
20:50:55 <Vorpal> elliott, before I got my 2x1 TB disk setup :P
20:51:09 <ais523> hmm, how reliable are USB sticks for long-term storage?
20:51:14 <ais523> is there enough data yet to tell
20:51:20 <ais523> as in, will they still work after, say, ten years?
20:51:27 <elliott> ais523: their failure mode is "no more writes", like all SSDs
20:51:37 <elliott> ais523: being unable to /read/ data from a USB stick is basically impossible
20:51:44 <elliott> unless you physically mutilate it, I suppose
20:51:44 <ais523> yep, but presumably they have another failure mode where they can no longer be read
20:51:55 <elliott> ais523: or at least, it's ridiculously long
20:51:59 <ais523> I imagine a failure of the controller circuit might happen before a failure of the actual storage
20:52:03 <ais523> but it'd happen eventually
20:52:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: their failure mode is "no more writes", like all SSDs <-- that is *one* failure mode
20:52:11 <elliott> ais523: besides, by the time you can't write any more, you could just copy it
20:52:19 <elliott> in the hundred years you have before you can't read any more
20:52:19 <ais523> Vorpal: it's the one that typically happens first
20:52:20 <Vorpal> elliott, if the controller fails you are screwed
20:52:27 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you want to waste money
20:52:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Not _definitely_ screwed
20:52:39 <elliott> You could salvage the actual stored data
20:52:41 <Vorpal> elliott, "unless you want to waste money"
20:52:42 <ais523> elliott: all data can be kept readable indefinitely by repeatedly copying it via some basically-lossless method
20:52:43 <elliott> Although that would be non-trivial
20:52:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well compared to having backups :P
20:53:02 <ais523> it might well need an electron microscope, you can't just patch up an ASIC
20:53:08 <elliott> ais523: yes, but the point is with USB sticks, not only is the relevant failure mode (not readable) ridiculously long, but there's a very obvious indication that it will fail much, much before
20:53:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm talking about backing up to SSD storage
20:53:20 <ais523> but only if you're using it all that time
20:53:23 <elliott> which is much saner than backing up to CDs
20:53:28 <elliott> ais523: or you just test it every now and then
20:53:32 <ais523> you can't tell a USB stick is no longer writable if you just stick it in a draw and leave it there
20:53:35 <Vorpal> ais523, I heard of controller failures before write cycle count failures on SSD.
20:53:37 <elliott> ais523: note that the not-being-able-to-write mode is only after some writes
20:53:46 <elliott> I think that it will store pretty much indefinitely if you just leave it alone
20:53:47 <Vorpal> can't say I heard about that for usb sticks though
20:53:59 <ais523> elliott: well, flash memory works by saving stored charge
20:54:14 <ais523> you'd imagine it would leak out eventually due to the pnpnpn... barriers used not being perfectly resistive
20:54:30 <Vorpal> ais523, that will happen
20:54:40 <Vorpal> ais523, also is it pnpnpn?
20:54:47 <Vorpal> that's quite a lot of layers
20:54:55 <ais523> but it's the way people do "insulation" on ASICs
20:55:01 <ais523> just put a lot of diodes back to front
20:55:18 <Vorpal> ais523, heh. How do you get past them when you do want that though?
20:55:19 <ais523> it's easier than putting an actual insulator there with modern ASIC manufacture methods
20:55:37 <ais523> you don't, it's the equivalent of the lack of a wire on a circuit board
20:56:03 <Vorpal> ais523, you mean modern CPUs use that to separate the wires and such?
20:56:12 <elliott> syntax highlighting is really non-trivial
20:56:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you use a nice library to do it
20:56:29 <elliott> a good one has to be incremental, has to be able to start from somewhere other than the start of a stream and resynchronise correctly
20:56:36 <elliott> and yet still handle invalid code
20:56:40 <Vorpal> elliott, context sensitive syntax highlighting, while cool is however a bitch
20:56:40 <elliott> and preferably recover later on
20:56:45 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you use a nice library to do it
20:56:49 <elliott> they're all batch-oriented
20:56:52 <elliott> which == very slow when editing a large file
20:57:02 <elliott> because you have to constantly re-highlight
20:57:08 <elliott> I'll just use gtksourceview's highlighter for now, but still...
20:57:21 <Vorpal> elliott, you should do stuff like make declared type names have a different colours so you can tell which ones are valid.
20:57:26 <elliott> (it'll be gedit's basic control, but totally different above that)
20:58:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I know monodevelop and MSVC does this for C#, it is actually quite nice once you used it a few minutes
20:58:07 <Vorpal> but very language specific
20:58:29 <Vorpal> will need quite a large parser, one per language
20:58:39 <Vorpal> C in particular would be a hell to do it for
20:58:42 <elliott> My focus will be the C, Python and Haskell modes to start with
20:58:43 <ais523> NetBeans uses green for properties, as opposed to classes or methods, and puts static methods in italics
20:58:55 <elliott> Because leaden is written in Python (for now), I primarily edit Haskell, and I write C on a semi-regular basis
20:58:58 <Vorpal> ais523, is that when declaring or when calling?
20:59:01 <ais523> Java's much better for that than C++, though, because of the lack of defines and includes
20:59:06 <ais523> and that's everywhere the identifier is used
20:59:22 <ais523> you can tell you typoed because the word comes up in the wrong color
20:59:28 <elliott> My primary focus is GOOD AUTOINDENTAITON
20:59:38 <elliott> Because most editors suck at it or don't even do it at all, and that is why those editors are useless.
20:59:42 <Vorpal> ais523, C# would be about on the same level as java here. While it has preprocessor that is basically limited to #define FOO/#undef FOO and #ifdef
21:00:00 <ais523> that's probably not even a preprocessor
21:00:12 <ais523> it's probably more along the lines of declaring const variables and compile-time if statements
21:00:25 <Vorpal> ais523, the #define is just boolean iirc
21:00:33 <Vorpal> ais523, and only affects the #ifdef bit
21:00:37 <ais523> hmm, here's a WTF for you: I remember when I was much younger I was trying to write a program in Borland C++
21:00:41 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't think it can get into actual code
21:00:41 <ais523> and confused #if and if
21:00:44 <elliott> Some indentation scenarios are pretty non-trivial...
21:00:55 <ais523> it let me use #if with respect to a const variable, which is the wtf bit
21:01:02 <ais523> as in, const int a = 1; #if a ... #endif
21:01:03 <elliott> If you just use the rule "line continuation character ("\") at EOL --> one more indent in next line"
21:01:07 <elliott> so you have to scan backwards
21:01:11 <elliott> to see if this bit is already indented...
21:01:12 <Vorpal> elliott, if you have #define MACRO() in front of that you are screwed :P
21:01:14 <ais523> at least, I may remember wrong
21:01:25 <elliott> Vorpal: This is for Python :P
21:01:31 <ais523> I probably do because if I remembered right, that's completely insane
21:01:56 <olsner> I think #if a if a is not a macro treats a as 0
21:02:09 <olsner> and if it is defined to nothing it's a one
21:02:16 <Vorpal> <elliott> If you just use the rule "line continuation character ("\") at EOL --> one more indent in next line" <-- add "and not already in continuation mode"
21:02:28 <Vorpal> elliott, no need to scan backwards, just keep a flag
21:02:29 <elliott> Vorpal: The indenter doesn't have modes, it has to work purely on context.
21:02:45 <elliott> Otherwise it'd fail horribly for moving around the file, opening new files, files with invalid syntax somewhere, blah blah blah.
21:03:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you already have some state on the line
21:03:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that is how many tabs in it should be/is
21:03:38 <elliott> Not really; I actually just look at the previous line's whitespace in front of it, and add another unit of indentation if we need one.
21:03:54 <elliott> e.g. "else:" should dedent one from a block body
21:04:02 <oerjan> <Vorpal> can never remember which one uses which <-- well for foldl the type of the final result is coming from the left, while for foldr it is coming from the right
21:04:07 <Vorpal> elliott, in python how do you deal with knowing when to unindent though
21:04:24 <elliott> Vorpal: python-mode dedents after a return statement, although that's a bit perverse.
21:04:30 <Vorpal> elliott, right, python-fu is a bit rusty
21:04:35 <elliott> With Python, backspace (one indent) replaces }, basically.
21:04:42 <Vorpal> elliott, not all python functions return something
21:04:49 <elliott> should obviously dedent one
21:04:53 <fizzie> It also dedents after a "pass" and so on.
21:04:54 <elliott> (assuming ... doesn't end with conditional block)
21:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can def a nested function in python
21:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Meaning you have to trust existing indention when auto-reindenting a file
21:05:35 <Vorpal> or do you only plan auto indenting without that
21:05:44 <Vorpal> as in, no way to say "fix up the indention of my selection"
21:05:46 <fizzie> elliott: Anyway, at least my Emacs dedents the else: when I type in the ":".
21:05:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty sure that is what kate does
21:06:40 <elliott> >>> indent_python('def hello():\n')
21:06:40 <elliott> >>> indent_python('print 42\n')
21:06:59 <elliott> Vorpal: There will be a reindent, yes. But the default behaviour will be to not touch existing indentation, because that's irritating.
21:07:18 <elliott> >>> indent_python('def hello():\n print 42\n if 2 + 2 == 4:\n')
21:08:38 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: There will be a reindent, yes. But the default behaviour will be to not touch existing indentation, because that's irritating. <-- of course
21:08:54 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway my point was that reindent for python will be somewhat more complicated than for a language like C
21:08:56 <elliott> ("Reindent this selection" in Python is tricky, though.)
21:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott, as i just said yes
21:09:05 <elliott> Because you have to handle it differently than just "auto-indent the whole thing".
21:09:14 <elliott> Instead you can basically just convert indentation width and that is it.
21:09:34 <Vorpal> elliott, yep. A language like C without a preprocessor is the best bet for making this easy :P
21:10:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway autoformat is more useful. You know, fixing spacing around operators to what you set it to and so on
21:10:44 <Vorpal> elliott, such tools saved my sanity when working on projects with other people before.
21:10:56 <fizzie> ais523: The #defines are called pre-processing directives, but "The term "pre-processing directives" is used only for consistency with the C and C++ programming languages. In C#, there is no separate pre-processing step; pre-processing directives are processed as part of the lexical analysis phase."
21:11:09 <elliott> I tend to... avoid contributing code to things that are badly-formatted.
21:11:11 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:11:16 <elliott> mcmap JUST BARELY GETS AWAY with Allman style.
21:11:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:12:05 <ais523> elliott: this reminds me of something: earlier this week a bunch of my students were using an indentation style which was like this
21:12:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I have to admit that microsoft actually managed to make a damn good IDE when it came to MSVC 2010 if you have to use C#. It actually doesn't annoy me to code in it. Well sure it annoys me to code C#. But I don't go mad at the actual IDE beyond "gah this default font isn't nice, lets change it... ah done".
21:12:18 <ais523> { the_first_line_of_the_function();
21:12:33 <ais523> and I asked them why they'd done it like that, and they said the autoindenter had done it
21:12:33 <elliott> (what Wikipedia calls it, despite nobody knowing wtf the Pico language is and nobody caring either)
21:12:43 <elliott> did they have } on the same line
21:12:47 <ais523> and I was wondering why the autoindenter was set like that, and why it even had a setting to do that
21:12:55 <fizzie> What it supports is #define and #undef, but those can only do "#define FOO" which defines a "conditional compilation symbol" FOO that you can test against with #if/#else/#elif/#endif -- not general-purpose symbols you could use elsewhere. And then there's #line/#error/#warning related to error reporting, and #region/#endregion as general-purpose markers.
21:12:55 <elliott> ais523: I bet what they did was
21:12:56 <Vorpal> <ais523> { the_first_line_of_the_function(); <--- what....
21:12:56 <ais523> } was after the last line of the function
21:13:01 <elliott> then it auto-electrified to
21:13:14 <ais523> NetBeans doesn't electrify like that
21:13:19 <ais523> it electrifies other ways, but not that way
21:13:41 <ais523> which makes no sense at all
21:13:53 <elliott> Vorpal: electrify = electric mode
21:13:58 <fizzie> "#region ... #endregion" is defined to be equivalent to "#if true ... #endif", that's a bit funny.
21:13:58 <elliott> i.e. things like { automatically insert newlines and stuff
21:13:58 <ais523> hmm, perhaps it has an option to electrify like that
21:14:02 <ais523> that was turned on by mistake
21:14:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I hate that :P
21:14:35 <olsner> elliott: I guess it's Pico the editor
21:14:49 <elliott> The style used most commonly in the Pico programming language by its designers is different from the aforementioned styles. The lack of return statements and the fact that semicolons are used in Pico as statement separators, instead of terminators, leads to the following syntax:
21:14:52 <elliott> The advantages and disadvantages are similar to those of saving screen real estate with K&R style. One additional advantage is that the beginning and closing braces are consistent in application (both share space with a line of code), as opposed to K&R style where one brace shares space with a line of code and one brace has a line to itself.
21:14:55 <elliott> probably some vanity addition
21:15:01 <elliott> but it's been there for so long that it's probably there to stay
21:15:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Electric stuff doesn't really work for those of us who write things like "if (foo) return x;" :P
21:15:23 <ais523> OCaml style would be like that, except move the semicolons to the start of the line after
21:15:38 <ais523> but it doesn't have to deal with braces, and it would also allow a useless semicolon at the start for consistency
21:15:42 <olsner> eeh, hmm, that *clearly* follows directly from the lack of return statements... or not, wtf
21:15:48 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. And I do that
21:15:59 <elliott> that's Haskell record definition syntax
21:16:05 <elliott> OCaml doesn't use {}, to start with
21:16:11 <ais523> I said it didn't use braces
21:16:12 <Vorpal> elliott, that reminds me of one insane way to do case in erlang
21:16:17 <ais523> that's just how it treats punctuation marks in general
21:16:18 <elliott> ais523: and all the ocaml code I've seen uses ; on EOL
21:16:26 <Vorpal> elliott, since you use ; to terminate a case branch
21:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, but you can't use it on the last
21:16:33 <ais523> I forgot it had ; for a moment
21:16:37 <Vorpal> someone suggested you would put the ; at the start
21:16:40 <ais523> (and everyone forgets it has ;;)
21:16:40 <elliott> Vorpal: You have to use ".", right?
21:16:46 <Vorpal> elliott, . is for end of function
21:16:51 <elliott> Because Erlang thinks it's English or something.
21:17:04 <olsner> or because it thinks it's prolog?
21:17:06 <ais523> Prolog uses . for end-of-predicate
21:17:11 <olsner> prolog probably thinks it's english though
21:17:12 <ais523> and Erlang syntax was heavily inspired by Prolog
21:17:14 <elliott> yes, and Prolog thinks -- right
21:17:20 <Vorpal> olsner, the first version of the erlang VM was implemented in prolog I think
21:17:25 <olsner> it's a 5GL, humans can write code in it
21:17:40 <elliott> olsner: 6GL: PLAIN ENGLISH
21:17:48 <ais523> SQL thinks it's English too
21:17:53 <Vorpal> anyway, erlang just uses . for the last function clause of a function
21:17:55 <ais523> whereas VHDL just thinks it's ADA
21:18:10 <olsner> SQL also thinks it's "structured"
21:18:11 <ais523> elliott: ah, I know why I capitalise it
21:18:16 <elliott> Vorpal: wow, why does there even have to be a marking for the last clause?
21:18:20 <Vorpal> (no that function makes no sense whatsoever)
21:18:26 <ais523> it's because all the uses of the name I've seen predate lowercase letters
21:18:37 <elliott> ais523: BEFORE WE ADDED LOWERCASE LETTERS TO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE
21:18:42 <elliott> WE HAD THIS LANGUAGE CALLED "ADA"
21:18:46 <Vorpal> elliott, to separate it from the next function? But yes I don't know why it couldn't be the same one as for all other cases.
21:18:57 <ais523> elliott: Prolog definitely needs the .
21:19:07 <elliott> yes, but prolog puts . at the end of every clause
21:19:09 <elliott> not ; in front of all but the last one
21:19:17 <elliott> also, Prolog uses ; as OR IIRC
21:19:18 <ais523> well, it uses , or ; to separate clauses
21:19:22 <ais523> meaning and and or respectively
21:19:39 <Vorpal> <olsner> SQL also thinks it's "structured" <-- it is compared to an ad-hoc solution in a typical general purpose language :P
21:19:49 <ais523> hmm, can you actually define :- in Prolog?
21:19:49 <Vorpal> but apart from that, no it isn't
21:20:04 <ais523> I hope you can't, but it's Prolog so I'm not sure
21:20:20 <olsner> it might not have been the case back then, but now I think most general purpose languages are more structured than SQL
21:20:26 <elliott> "Also, but this is minor ... Script-Fu should be Ruby or Python or a SIMPLIFIED PSEUDO-DOMAIN SPECIFIC LANGUAGE.
21:20:27 <ais523> reddit keep laughing about Haskell like "let five = 2 + 2 where 2 + 2 = 5
21:20:27 <elliott> I will definitely not want to learn Lisp nor Scheme just so I can script in Gimp ..."
21:20:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> also, Prolog uses ; as OR IIRC <-- THAT explains a lot about the guard expressions in erlang
21:20:31 <fizzie> SQL written in the typical ALL UPPERCASE form is so enterprisey; ... CONSTRAINT foo FOREIGN KEY (bar) REFERENCES baz (quux) MATCH FULL ON UPDATE CASCADE ON DELETE CASCADE INITIALLY DEFERRED ...
21:20:34 <elliott> Since when is learning Ruby easier than learning Scheme ...
21:20:41 <Vorpal> elliott, like foo(1,n) when n > 2 -> ...
21:20:54 <ais523> elliott: did you point out that Ruby is Lisp in disguise?
21:20:55 <olsner> fizzie: I actually kind of like that style for SQL
21:20:59 <elliott> Vorpal: IIRC "if x then y else z" in Prolog is x => y; z
21:21:00 <Vorpal> elliott, in that bit after when , and ; are used as and/or
21:21:16 <Vorpal> elliott, though you can use or and and keywords as well
21:21:32 <olsner> so you can see which parts are keywords and which are identifiers, but only if the last person to touch the code kept them apart when writing it
21:21:44 <ais523> I thought making it look like it was inspired by Perl was a cover for the Lispism
21:21:48 <fizzie> olsner: I do use it too, but it feels so businessy. :p
21:21:52 <Vorpal> <fizzie> SQL written in the typical ALL UPPERCASE form is so enterprisey; ... CONSTRAINT foo FOREIGN KEY (bar) REFERENCES baz (quux) MATCH FULL ON UPDATE CASCADE ON DELETE CASCADE INITIALLY DEFERRED ... <-- isn't like at least 3 of those keywords optional?
21:22:01 <elliott> "The differences go far deeper. LISP = LIStProcessor. The entire computational model is based on the idea of formulating your problems in terms lists, and coming up with lots of simple (often recursive) functions to process them. Very different from a procedural, object-oriented language like Python."
21:22:14 <ais523> the same way that, say, you can throw a bunch of blatant Zelda references into a computer game to prevent people wondering if it's a cheap ripoff of an entirely different game
21:22:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm pretty sure I got away with FOREIGN KEY (bar) REFERENCES baz (quux)
21:22:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: The defaults are not what are specified there, though, so if you want those semantics, they're not optional.
21:22:39 <elliott> ais523: well, eh, it was originally matzlisp, but a lot of the features are VERY perl
21:22:45 <elliott> especially with regexp matching
21:22:46 <fizzie> The constraint name is optional, but it's good style to include it, or so they say.
21:22:53 <elliott> =~ implicitly sets $1,$2,$3,...
21:22:54 <ais523> everything does regexen nowadays
21:22:56 <olsner> elliott: it's true though, and not even obvious if it's pro-lisp or pro-python
21:23:12 <ais523> even more surprisingly, Java uses PCRE or a clone with identical syntax
21:23:20 <elliott> olsner: it's not true... most scheme/lisp programs don't formulate things in terms of lists.
21:23:26 <elliott> (and most lisp programs don't recurse much.)
21:23:28 <Vorpal> <ais523> the same way that, say, you can throw a bunch of blatant Zelda references into a computer game to prevent people wondering if it's a cheap ripoff of an entirely different game <-- what, really?
21:23:34 <ais523> so Java regexen look just the same as Perl regexen, except you use double quotes as delimeters and double backslashes
21:23:40 <elliott> ais523: PCRE clone? clone of a clone!
21:23:42 <fizzie> SELECT CASE WHEN x THEN y WHEN z AND q THEN p ELSE r END FROM p WHERE ...
21:23:56 <ais523> Vorpal: or any sufficiently popular and recognisable game series
21:24:05 <elliott> "Unless the "NoRecurse" PCRE build option (aka "--disable-stack-for-recursion") is chosen, adequate stack space must be allocated to PCRE by the calling application or operating system. The amount of stack needed varies for each pattern. For example, to complete the tests provided with pcretest, 8 mb of stack space would be needed. While PCRE's documentation cautions that the "NoRecurse" build option makes PCRE slower than the alternative, using
21:24:05 <elliott> it avoids entirely the issue of stack overflows."
21:24:05 <olsner> elliott: hmm, all the lisp I've written has put everything in lists and had loads of recursion :P
21:24:13 <Vorpal> ais523, but has that been done?
21:24:19 <elliott> any Common Lisper would maul you for doing that
21:24:24 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean, do you know any examples of this
21:24:32 <ais523> oh, I'm vaguely planning to do it
21:24:42 <elliott> ais523: SO IS DNA MAZE DONE YE
21:24:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that standard?
21:24:49 <ais523> I want to make a roguelike balanced the same way as Pokémon Mystery Dungeon someday, but entirely reflavoured and open-source
21:24:50 <olsner> oh, right, CL doesn't mandate tail-call optimization
21:25:06 <elliott> ais523: hey, I have pokemon mystery dungeon ... ... it was kinda boring
21:25:10 <olsner> luckily, it was a number of years ago I wrote CL
21:25:11 <ais523> elliott: no, but luckily the last few levels I /have/ made are sufficiently hard that nobody will notice I haven't done any beyond them
21:25:17 <ais523> elliott: have you unlocked Zero Island yet?
21:25:23 <elliott> ais523: no, i gave up very quickly :)
21:25:25 <ais523> go do Zero Island South
21:25:31 <ais523> the first 85% of the game is boring
21:25:41 <ais523> yep, it's the sequel I'm talking about
21:25:51 <elliott> ais523: hmm, it never occurred to me that they're roguelikes
21:25:58 <elliott> first mainstream roguelikes?
21:26:11 <ais523> they went and hid an actual roguelike, which is incredibly difficult, on an optional dungeon
21:26:19 <ais523> no, Shiren the Wanderer is older
21:26:23 <ais523> and made by the same company
21:26:40 <ais523> Zero Island South has a lot of mess about "you can't take in items or money and will be reduced to level 1 temporarily"
21:26:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I'm reasonably certain it is, though not entirely sure.
21:26:44 <elliott> ais523: well, maybe we have different definitions of mainstream
21:27:00 <ais523> when what it actually means is "you will be given an entirely separate level 1 character that's the same species as your party leader"
21:27:00 <elliott> I'm sure N for some large N kids got the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games from parents because it had the word Pokemon in it
21:27:13 <ais523> yep, and it has the advantage of a very good plot compared to most Pokémon games
21:27:33 <elliott> I think Pokemon games and the like tend to try and keep protagonist continuity in one save game :P
21:27:45 <ais523> anyway, Zero Island South is a) a normal roguelike in every sense (no saving, no carry over, etc.), and b) freakishly hard
21:27:51 <ais523> I've never got more than about a third of the way through
21:28:00 <elliott> Zero Island South Beatable? - Serebii.Net Forums
21:28:00 <elliott> 20 posts - 16 authors - Last post: 5 Sep 2008
21:28:00 <elliott> Zero Island South Beatable? Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Discussion.
21:28:01 <elliott> www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=350509 - Cached - Similar
21:28:07 <Vorpal> ais523, harder than nethack?
21:28:17 <elliott> Vorpal: "I've never got more than about a third of the way through"
21:28:19 <ais523> harder for me, but then I'm pretty good at NetHack
21:28:22 <Vorpal> ais523, what did this game run on?
21:28:22 <elliott> I'm pretty sure ais523 has ascended, so :P
21:28:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Pokemon Mystery Dungeon
21:28:41 <ais523> but the main game itself is very easy
21:28:43 <Vorpal> how... did nintendo license that
21:28:54 <Vorpal> ais523, it has two games?
21:28:57 <ais523> actually, for the same reason the optional bonus level is hard
21:29:05 <ais523> Vorpal: Zero Island is disguised as an optional/bonus level
21:29:24 <elliott> ais523: that reminds me of Super Mario Galaxy
21:29:25 <ais523> but the only tie-in with the main game is that items found in ZIS can be taken back to the main game (not the other way round, though)
21:29:40 <ais523> also money, but there are much easier ways to get that
21:29:51 <elliott> ais523: beating the actual game is incredibly easy; doing all the special levels you unlock after that is much harder
21:29:56 <elliott> (the post-game game is bigger than the game itself)
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21:30:03 <elliott> and then you get to Luigi's Purple Coins. aaaaargh.
21:30:16 <ais523> well, Zero Island is just four levels
21:30:25 <ais523> two of which are truly independent from the main game itself
21:30:30 <elliott> video of Luigi's purple coins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECfQmBbzvcc
21:30:33 <elliott> note: it's much harder than it looks.
21:30:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the same could be say for games like mario64
21:30:36 <ais523> Zero Island North lets you take in fully-leveled Pokémon, items, and money
21:30:40 <elliott> Vorpal: take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECfQmBbzvcc
21:30:40 <ais523> and it's the only one I've actually solved
21:30:55 <ais523> and even then, it was at level 100, and I used up half a bag of reviver seeds (= amulets of life saving that work from inventory)
21:31:02 <Vorpal> elliott, where winning the game is easy but getting every single star is quite a bit harder (though not impossibly hard)
21:31:04 <elliott> I swear, Luigi's Purple Coins is three times as hard as the rest of the game combined.
21:31:22 <ais523> I only did it after realising that the best strategy was to put a reviver seed in every single item slot of my bag, because an intentional death + lifesave duplicates the power of so many other items
21:32:01 <ais523> and I used exactly half of them
21:32:14 <elliott> incidentally, Luigi's Purple Coins got a /sequel/ in the sequel
21:32:16 <elliott> but it was actually easier
21:32:28 <coppro> Luigi's Purple Coins /with Luigi/
21:32:29 <elliott> you had to get every single coin, but the platforms weren't so downright malicious
21:32:31 <elliott> (although there were enemies)
21:32:32 <ais523> west, east, and south each restrict you to fresh characters; west allows a limited number of items to be taken in from outside
21:32:46 <ais523> and east and south are true roguelikes, allowing 4 and 1 fresh characters respectively
21:32:59 <elliott> INSUFFICIENT EMPATHY FOR MY LUIGI'S PURPLE COINS HORROR GUYS
21:33:00 <ais523> I prefer south, although I like the AI ally management subgame it's too much in addition to a truly evil dungeon
21:33:07 <elliott> once I got all the coins, and then died on the way back to the star
21:33:09 <ais523> hey, I haven't watched the video yet
21:33:15 <ais523> although I'm aware that the level is infamous
21:33:19 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECfQmBbzvcc <-- wha....
21:33:21 <elliott> another time i had like three to go, and /ran out of time/
21:33:25 <elliott> Vorpal: IT IS THE WORST EVER
21:33:26 <Vorpal> elliott, bonus level right?
21:33:30 <coppro> also, that video sucks
21:33:35 <elliott> Vorpal: well, yes, but like i said
21:33:40 <elliott> the only real achievement is beating it completely
21:33:42 <elliott> the actual game is trivial
21:33:44 <coppro> long jumping is how you do that level
21:33:56 <elliott> I wasn't actually the person to do it in the end (although I think I did it later); it was at the unit, Jonathan did it
21:34:07 <elliott> tl;dr: Nintendo: EVIL PERSONIFIED.
21:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you did beat that level with all the stars as well?
21:35:43 <Vorpal> elliott, "lilac thingies"
21:35:48 <Vorpal> looked like stars to me
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21:35:54 <elliott> oh. no, i only got 100 of them, which is all you need
21:35:57 <Vorpal> elliott, if so I'm impressed, couldn't pull it off myself I know *that*
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21:36:05 <Vorpal> elliott, still tricky ys
21:36:11 <elliott> it's ridiculously impossible, especially if you don't know the jumping mechanics
21:36:19 <ais523> elliott: that reminds me of some of the harder Enigma levels
21:36:21 <elliott> doing the shake-jump that happens a lot in that video seriously restricts your movement afterwards
21:36:22 <Vorpal> elliott, also why is it nintendo hard? It is too modern for that
21:36:24 <ais523> it's a puzzle level, by the look of it
21:36:25 <elliott> so often you fall to your death
21:36:39 <elliott> ais523: puzzle and dexterity...
21:36:45 <Vorpal> elliott, which one is that
21:36:49 <elliott> Vorpal: where he jumps and spins and goes yahoo
21:36:56 <ais523> well, I expect platformers to be dexterity
21:36:58 <elliott> heh "STAR GET!", that's not in the english version
21:37:04 <elliott> Vorpal: clearly the sadists who made the Nintendo Hard games snuck their evil into the bonus levels, anyway
21:37:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> heh "STAR GET!", that's not in the english version <-- wait a second.
21:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, if it is not English it is in the wrong language
21:37:28 <ais523> elliott: the vast majority of romhacks are nintendo hard or harder
21:37:38 <ais523> Vorpal: Japanese games often have English text in addition to Japanese text
21:37:41 <elliott> Vorpal: most Japanese platformer games are in Engrish
21:37:46 <elliott> you can see at the start, the sign has japanese text
21:37:50 <Vorpal> elliott, it says "Time:" too
21:37:50 <ais523> often using one for certain types of text, and the other for other types of text
21:38:08 <elliott> ais523: possibly for space?
21:38:15 <elliott> hard to render kanji in low-res, and kana would have been quite long
21:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott, does Mario in Japan talk broken English with an Italian accent as well?
21:38:24 <ais523> oh, it might be a low-res thing
21:38:33 <ais523> also, the vast majority of Japanese games use kana
21:38:33 <elliott> he doesn't actually talk in Galaxy though
21:38:42 <elliott> well he just goes like "ah" and "yahoo" and stuff and the rest is subtitles.
21:38:49 <ais523> because most Japanese children, who'd likely be playing the games, don't know kanji yet
21:39:10 <elliott> ais523: also because kanji still requires higher-res than you get on the DS I would imagine
21:39:14 <ais523> not to mention, that kana fonts save a bunch of space on old-fashioned game cards
21:39:25 <ais523> elliott: nope, Pokémon Black/White have a kana/kanji option
21:39:26 <Vorpal> elliott, right. He says "It is me, Mario" or something like that when you load Mario64
21:39:36 <elliott> Vorpal: *It'sa me, Ma-rio!
21:39:40 <ais523> I think they might double the size of the kanji so they're visible, though
21:39:45 <Vorpal> elliott, well then he talks
21:39:47 <ais523> "it's-a" is the normal rendering
21:40:03 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't say I'm a specialist on this :P
21:40:06 <elliott> he also say "Let's go" or something when you select a level.
21:40:16 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that in mariokart?
21:40:32 <elliott> I really dislike Mario Kart Wii
21:40:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried mario kart but I never found racing games very interesting at all
21:40:48 <elliott> they screwed up the controls to make it easier for newbies using the wheel thing or whatever
21:40:50 <ais523> the -a suffix is Mario's speech tic
21:40:59 <elliott> the gamecube version is far superior
21:41:08 <ais523> my favourite's the GBA version
21:41:15 <Vorpal> ais523, I think I remember stuff like "Select course" too being spoken in Mario kart for n64
21:41:18 <coppro> I like the DS one personally
21:41:20 <elliott> I have the DS, but not the GBA version
21:41:22 <ais523> although I've played most of them by now, despite not owning most of the relevant consoles
21:41:28 <coppro> I definitely agree with Wii sucking
21:41:32 <ais523> I have the DS version, and they removed a lot of things from the GBA version that I like
21:41:40 <elliott> I don't like the DS version much
21:41:42 <ais523> alarmed red shells, in particular
21:41:52 <elliott> ais523: ouch, red shells don't alarm in the DS version?
21:41:55 <ais523> in the GBA version, if you hold down when pressing a red shell, it does nothing for a few seconds
21:42:02 <ais523> then if anyone comes near, aims for them
21:42:13 <ais523> it makes battle mode really tactical
21:42:16 <elliott> that might be in the GCN version, not sure
21:42:23 <ais523> what does the N stand for in GCN?
21:42:30 <elliott> it's a bit of a ridiculous acronym
21:42:38 <Vorpal> elliott, what does GC stand for?
21:42:38 <coppro> not sure who came up with it
21:42:41 <ais523> that's french word order
21:42:48 <coppro> Vorpal: *smackupsidethehead*
21:42:48 <elliott> my gamecube battle mode tactics are "make sure you have what you need five seconds before the match ends, and hoard it madly"
21:42:56 <Vorpal> ais523, wait what. Game Cube Nintendo?
21:43:06 <ais523> elliott: in that case, the victory condition changed too
21:43:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I see. Pascal case eh
21:43:13 <elliott> "The Nintendo GameCube (ニンテンドーゲームキューブ Nintendō Gēmukyūbu?), officially abbreviated as GCN in Western regions[citation needed] and as NGC in Japan"
21:43:13 <coppro> elliott: don't forget "drop bananas just outside the pipes"
21:43:16 <ais523> it's GameCube, but I added the space to make the acronym clear
21:43:16 <elliott> Nintendo don't understand English.
21:43:38 <ais523> the hilarious thing is how Japanese abbreviations often work in English too
21:43:50 <Vorpal> but the best mario games are the RPG one I find
21:43:55 <Vorpal> well paper mario, not so much
21:43:59 <ais523> e.g. for a long time, I didn't believe the common clame that "Pokémon" is short for "Pocket Monsters" because surely it should be a japanese abbreviation?
21:44:16 <ais523> but it turns out that the abbreviation works in Japanese too
21:44:17 <Vorpal> elliott, Mario RPG for SNES mostly
21:44:23 <elliott> ais523: POKETTU MONSAUETUAO
21:44:32 <elliott> (yes, I know it's really Poketto Monsut-a)
21:44:34 <Vorpal> elliott, the paper mario ones aren't all that bad either though not as good as the snes one
21:44:40 <elliott> (where - stands for how I'm too lazy to find the key combo for that)
21:44:45 <Vorpal> elliott, defined enough?
21:45:23 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if there's an SMG 3 coming out
21:45:26 <Vorpal> elliott, also I believe that is the only one you end up with Bowser on your side for a while
21:45:31 <elliott> and how good Wii emulation is (probably terrible)
21:45:59 <ais523> elliott: they've almost got it to rerecord quality now
21:46:08 <elliott> ais523: on what kind of hardware?
21:46:08 <Vorpal> elliott, worth the time to do so
21:46:17 <elliott> ais523: oh, wait, no point using an emulator, the gestures will be a pain ...
21:46:42 <elliott> I think Wiis are like £5 now, anyway
21:46:46 <ais523> <Vorpal> elliott, also I believe that is the only one you end up with Bowser on your side for a while <--- Super Smash Bros Brawl has Mario and Bowser on the same side towards the end
21:47:02 <Vorpal> ais523, what? isn't brawl a fighting game?
21:47:03 <ais523> elliott: yes, they patched it in several months after release
21:47:16 <ais523> which is actually mostly a platformer based on the same engine
21:47:24 <ais523> well, it's a cross between a platformer and a fighting game
21:47:34 <Vorpal> ais523, how strange. what platform is it for?
21:47:36 <ais523> but you know the whole recovery thing, where if you get back onto the platform you don't die?
21:47:45 <ais523> they used that as the basis behind a platformer
21:48:00 <elliott> btw, I recommend Galaxy/Galaxy 2 to anyone who likes Mario games, although I guess that goes without saying
21:48:00 <ais523> search for Subspace Emissary if you're interested
21:48:04 <Vorpal> <ais523> they used that as the basis behind a platformer <-- the result sucks right? there is no way it couldn't
21:48:18 <Vorpal> <ais523> search for Subspace Emissary if you're interested <-- wait, did we get into star trek suddenly?
21:48:25 <ais523> no, that's the name of the story mode
21:48:31 <Vorpal> ais523, what a strange name
21:48:56 <ais523> well, there's a major boss who exists for the purpose of everyone uniting to fight him
21:48:57 <ais523> but he's trapped in Subspace
21:49:06 <ais523> so he sends out an emissary to Subspace-ise the entire world
21:49:12 <ais523> nope, he doesn't get unleashed
21:49:20 <elliott> hmm, someone should patch Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 to not reward you for beating the game the normal way, until you 100% it :)
21:49:21 <ais523> rather, he tries to move the border so everyone's on his side
21:49:54 <ais523> it would be hilarious if SSBB were canon in all the respective universes
21:50:01 <elliott> aaargh, i just had a flashback of the Daredevil Bouldergeist level
21:50:11 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't imagine it being canon in any
21:50:12 <elliott> oh, and that speed-run level
21:50:14 <ais523> completely devastate a large number of plotlines...
21:50:25 <ais523> Vorpal: neither can I, but it would be hilarious
21:50:26 <elliott> where you had to complete something like 5 bosses
21:51:29 <elliott> "Bouldergeist does return in Super Mario Galaxy 2 in the Boss Blitz Galaxy along with other bosses from Super Mario Galaxy as the fourth boss encountered. Its attack tactics are exactly the same as those in the prequel."
21:51:33 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway "<Vorpal> <ais523> they used that as the basis behind a platformer <-- the result sucks right? there is no way it couldn't", never got an answer
21:51:41 <elliott> "This galaxy pits the player against five bosses from the first game, Super Mario Galaxy. The player faces off against Dino Piranha, King Kaliente, Major Burrows, Bouldergeist, and Fiery Dino Piranha in that exact order. There is no break for the first four bosses. However, there is a small planet to rest upon before battling the last boss here."
21:51:47 <elliott> FREAKING INFINITE LIQUID PAIN
21:51:47 <ais523> well, I haven't played it myself
21:51:54 <elliott> "This mission is the same as the first one, only there is a time limit of five minutes. If Mario manages to defeat all five bosses before time runs out, he is granted a Power Star."
21:52:09 <elliott> I don't think everyone's quite got enough of a feeling of the pain here
21:52:14 <ais523> but watching other people play it, there's often swearing in the platforming as opposed to fighting sections
21:52:34 <Vorpal> "<elliott> "This galaxy pits the player against five bosses from the first game, Super Mario Galaxy." <-- wait what, that sounds like cost cutting
21:52:37 <ais523> elliott: well, you haven't played zero island south
21:52:39 <Vorpal> reusing bosses like that
21:52:40 <elliott> Vorpal: it's a bonus world
21:52:44 <Vorpal> unless it is the token boss
21:52:44 <elliott> Vorpal: and I doubt it was trivial to code in
21:52:49 <elliott> because all the planets are in one place
21:52:53 <elliott> well, the same galaxy or whatever
21:53:01 <ais523> one of the base-level, token enemies is Bronzor
21:53:02 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, doing that in five-minutes was incredibly painful.
21:53:25 <Vorpal> elliott, of course. But still saves on thinking up new interesting bosses
21:53:28 <ais523> who is incredibly hard to kill (something like six hits with my most powerful attack at that point in the game, where most monsters die in one or two), and has two separate attacks that prevent the player acting at all
21:53:32 <Vorpal> elliott, also on graphics
21:53:34 <ais523> which it can alternate to extend the duration
21:53:35 <elliott> Vorpal: they did quite enough of that in the game itself TYVM
21:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12979187400A65160100&page=1#1
21:53:40 <ais523> so letting it get in one hit can often result in your death
21:54:10 <ais523> occasionally, I manage to get past the part of the game full of that sort of ridiculous status-chaining difficulty to the bit where I just get oneshotted
21:54:15 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, and this is painful too. http://www.mariowiki.com/Stone_Cyclone_Galaxy
21:54:17 <ais523> perhaps I've done that 2 or 3 times by now
21:54:28 <Phantom_Hoover> And it looks like they're replacing it with an even hackier system.
21:54:37 <elliott> Vorpal: the faster version
21:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Picture_4_7476.jpg
21:54:52 <elliott> Vorpal: basically, incredibly deadly (one-hit kill) boulder block things are going around incredibly quickly
21:54:57 <elliott> you can slow down time but only for a short amount of time at certain points
21:55:00 <elliott> and you have to collect 5 silver stars
21:55:07 <elliott> most of which are underneath where the boulder blocks stamp you.
21:55:13 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, is Galaxy \in World ?
21:55:38 <Vorpal> elliott, they are that large?
21:55:42 <elliott> Galaxy = usually composed of multiple small planets (that if close enough you can even jump between)
21:55:44 <Phantom_Hoover> THIS is the guy who saw to the evisceration of "subjective" tropes, THIS is the guy who gave CMoA a stupid title for no good reason.
21:55:47 <elliott> But often just regular levels
21:55:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what a bad naming :P
21:56:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [[Ptitles that don't have a redirect will still be serviced. The new system doesn't really care about the replaced item. It's arbitrary. If we tell it to say 'Morton's Left Foot' when it sees 'ptitle098765', that's what it does. Same deal if we tell it to say 'Morton's Left Foot' when it sees 'MortonsLeftFoot.']]
21:56:58 <elliott> I don't think punctuated titles are actually going away
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21:58:52 <elliott> ais523: so are there more dna maze levels since i got it?
21:59:02 <ais523> no, I've been working on other things
21:59:32 <ais523> the thing is, my rule for creating levels towards the end is "the most difficult level I can complete after practicing on the others"
21:59:35 <elliott> ais523: hmm, have you still got a copy of the source? I've lost mine
21:59:41 <ais523> which means I need to be in practice
21:59:46 <ais523> do you need the level files too? or just the source?
22:00:18 <ais523> hmm, I have several copies
22:00:30 <ais523> including some files named dnamaze5_ehird (a .tar and a .zip)
22:00:33 <ais523> but I can't remember which is which any more
22:00:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what are "punctuated titles"?
22:01:04 <ais523> Vorpal: titles containing punctuation
22:01:15 <elliott> ais523: both, actually; _ehird is where I made it build properly on OS X, I think
22:01:24 <elliott> and made using both production and debug build easier
22:01:28 <elliott> (separate config file names)
22:01:36 <Vorpal> ais523, the context seems to be tvtropes
22:01:44 <ais523> elliott: that's probably patched_from_ehird
22:01:57 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, in that context
22:02:04 <ais523> tvtropes used to mangle the URLs when that happened
22:02:22 <Vorpal> ais523, and they will be dead it says
22:02:49 <ais523> yep, they're changing the mangling
22:02:59 <elliott> ais523: hmm, then i have no idea
22:03:16 <pikhq> Mmkay, I think I may have gotten my damned-annoying "Lawl, let's drop connections" behavior fixed-ish.
22:03:18 <ais523> this is why I like atimes
22:03:34 <ais523> they're almost indispensable from working out which version is which when you have a bunch of tarballs
22:04:22 -!- nescience has quit (Quit: -a-).
22:04:30 <pikhq> Seems that somewhere in the path, saturating upload link length could cause buffers to get too large, causing latency and packet drops to go up.
22:04:36 <pikhq> Get enough ACKs dropped, and voila.
22:04:51 <ais523> elliott: because old backups tend to have older atimes
22:04:54 * pikhq hopes that does it.
22:05:02 <ais523> recently used files can have old mtimes
22:05:16 <elliott> that has nothing to do with the age of a backup
22:05:44 <ais523> yep, but recently used identifies what's most relevant, most usually
22:06:13 <ais523> thus, this is how I can tell that patched_from_ehird is indeed the version you sent me
22:06:24 <ais523> and if so, how? email? (filebin.ca is down)
22:06:58 <elliott> ais523: argh, i wish filebin.ca wasn't down
22:07:12 <elliott> ais523: email would be fine, but since I'm not on OS X, I'd prefer your stock version
22:07:20 <ais523> pastebin.ca and all its friends seem to be down permanently
22:07:41 <ais523> and in that case, I just have to figure out which of these tarballs it should be
22:07:44 <ais523> or whether I should make a new one
22:07:57 <elliott> ais523: slepp.ca is the person behind them
22:08:06 <elliott> it seems to be down too, but I doubt that is permanent
22:08:13 <elliott> you could try and contact him; he has a wikipedia account
22:08:25 <elliott> also http://twitter.com/slepp
22:08:37 <elliott> nothing about the sites, it seems
22:08:51 <Vorpal> how long has filebin been down?
22:09:26 <Vorpal> elliott, omploader does accept non-image data iirc
22:09:38 <Vorpal> elliott, not intended usage
22:10:42 <Vorpal> elliott, is that bad here?
22:10:56 <elliott> well, last time ais523 gave me DNA Maze it was under an NDA :-P
22:11:15 <ais523> still is, I suppose, because I haven't figured out what to do with it yet
22:11:38 <elliott> SELL IT FOR TENS OF POUNDS
22:12:10 <ais523> there have been not even bugfixes since last time I sent it to you two, anyway
22:12:17 <ais523> not even the crash if you click on the title screen rather than pressing a key
22:12:23 <ais523> (it does say "press a key", though, doesn't it?)
22:12:42 <elliott> you never sent it to Vorpal!
22:12:47 <elliott> you granted me exclusive permission to send it to Vorpal
22:13:23 <elliott> ais523: anywho, you can just email penguinofthegods@gmail.com with the stock version as an attachment... might go into my spam folder though
22:13:30 <elliott> although, i guess unlikely
22:13:38 <elliott> since i have plenty of emails for you in this account
22:13:49 <Vorpal> ais523, I found that game incredibly hard
22:14:08 <ais523> Vorpal: it is pretty hard, yes
22:14:17 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't a rougelike. It isn't Nintendo. What is the excuse?
22:14:21 <ais523> level 10 (well, 4-1...) was originally level 1, but I moved it due to being too hard
22:14:33 <Vorpal> ais523, I never finished level 1 even
22:14:37 <ais523> Vorpal: because in that sort of puzzle game, you want them to be difficult
22:14:52 <ais523> if you can't do level 1-1, though, I feel for you, it's massively easy
22:14:59 <ais523> if you follow the right path, you can't die no matter what the timings are
22:15:07 <Vorpal> ais523, I try to remember if it was turn based or not
22:15:12 <ais523> also, remember it's a puzzle game rather than a simple platformer, you're supposed to have to think
22:15:23 <ais523> and it sort-of is, except you get 11 turns per second at a fixed rate
22:15:38 <Vorpal> ais523, ah yes, that speed was what made it hard
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22:16:27 <elliott> ais523: you should add terrible music!
22:16:28 <ais523> Vorpal: note that I did the first 30 or 40 or so levels when the game had a bug which meant that pressed keys had about a 50% chance to be ignored
22:16:36 <ais523> elliott: there was terrible music once
22:16:42 <ais523> but it got lost when it was ported to Windows
22:17:03 <ais523> that game's been ported so many times
22:17:05 <elliott> you need to port it to VMS or something, and date the files to before the first version
22:17:13 <elliott> and eventually go back all the way to original unix, comment it
22:17:23 <elliott> /* spacewars is getting boring, let's try this instead -ais*/
22:17:56 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: note that I did the first 30 or 40 or so levels when the game had a bug which meant that pressed keys had about a 50% chance to be ignored <-- XD
22:18:06 <ais523> Vorpal: I admit that the game is hard
22:18:11 <ais523> I refuse to admit that level 1-1 is hard, though
22:18:25 <ais523> there's basically nothing that can kill you, but walls
22:18:38 <ais523> and they're far apart enough that if you just stay in the centre of the path, you never hit them
22:18:40 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, other levels got other stuff that could kill you?
22:18:46 <Vorpal> ais523, also the game is simply too fast for me
22:19:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: a computer game, that I have spent years writing on and off and still not finished
22:19:10 <pikhq_> Nope, definitely didn't fix anything.
22:19:14 <ais523> it requires more thought than Vorpal seems to be capable of
22:19:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I have another day of wilderness before I get a steady connection; I need something to do.
22:19:24 <elliott> `addquote [on DNA Maze] <ais523> it requires more thought than Vorpal seems to be capable of
22:19:25 <pikhq_> From this I can conclude this router just sucks ass.
22:19:27 <ais523> Vorpal: there's even the timing bar at the bottom of the screen nowadays
22:19:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm perfectly able to see how to solve it
22:19:35 <Vorpal> ais523, oh that is new then
22:19:38 <ais523> well, in that case level 1 should be trivial
22:19:39 <elliott> never let facts get in the way of a good Vorpal-bashing
22:19:40 <elliott> Vorpal: no, that's not new
22:19:46 <ais523> and that was in the version you saw
22:19:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I've already played through every FreeSpace 2 campaign I have!
22:19:57 <ais523> it's recent relative to DNA Maze history, but older than any version shown to people here
22:20:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, play df
22:20:03 <elliott> ais523: Cc dna maze to PH or something :-P
22:20:08 <Vorpal> df is easy compared to dna maze
22:20:13 <Vorpal> yes I stand by that statement
22:20:20 <ais523> well, it's impossible to win either...
22:20:20 <elliott> For some definition of "easy" equal to "not easy".
22:20:25 <HackEgo> 314) [on DNA Maze] <ais523> it requires more thought than Vorpal seems to be capable of
22:20:25 <oerjan> ais523: new section on minimization on the wiki Underload page. Note: don't read if you still want to puzzle out how to write ~
22:20:39 <Vorpal> also that quote was nasty
22:20:46 <ais523> (DF because it doesn't have a victory condition, DNA Maze because it's unfinished and past a certain point the levels aren't made yet and thus are actually impossible)
22:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, why didn't you play df now again?
22:20:53 <elliott> don't be silly, ais523 is the nicest person ever, how could he be nasty?
22:21:01 <elliott> I don't play DF because I haven't yet summoned the attention span
22:21:07 <Phantom_Hoover> LITTLE KNOWN FACT: all of my subjective opinions are objectively true.
22:21:07 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out which files should be in the tarball atm
22:21:35 <Vorpal> elliott, as if that would ever happen
22:21:49 <elliott> ais523: don't you already have a tarball? the one you sent to me?
22:22:16 <elliott> oerjan: do the 2,3 TM in underload next :D
22:23:06 <ais523> elliott: yes, but I can't figure out which it is
22:23:07 <oerjan> bah, that's trivial ;)
22:23:24 <elliott> ais523: one not with ehird in it, ending in .tar?
22:23:29 <elliott> how many tarballs can there be?
22:23:58 <ais523> generating its initial condition in underload might be more interesting
22:24:02 <ais523> I'm working on a 1cnis program atm to generate it
22:24:17 <elliott> I wish I put leaden up somewhere >_<
22:24:20 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what's your email?
22:24:33 <ais523> PM me if you don't want it to be logged
22:24:36 <elliott> phantom_hoover@hoover.tom+phan
22:24:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, my nick with all punctuation including caps stripped @gmail.com.
22:24:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, so hantomoover@gmail.com? ;)
22:25:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Erm, the p and the h are actually in there, right?
22:25:35 <elliott> BEWARE OF AIS523'S LITERAL MIND
22:25:57 <ais523> elliott: Phantom_Hoover obviously sees capitalisation as a combining character
22:25:59 * elliott f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5
22:26:04 <oerjan> the hantos never knew what hit them
22:26:38 <ais523> I wasn't paying attention when I made it
22:26:56 <ais523> (also, because I was trying to tarball up only half or so of a directory, and it's hard to get it to not make tarbombs when you do that)
22:27:05 <ais523> let me know if I've missed any files
22:27:22 <elliott> dnamaze5.c:237: warning: ‘YellowKeyAccum’ defined but not used
22:27:55 * elliott decides not to enable debug mode for now
22:28:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, doesn't compile because... I don't have the SDL dev libraries.
22:28:38 <ais523> DNA Maze used to have a 2-player mode back in version 2
22:28:46 <ais523> but it isn't implemented in that port
22:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, there doesn't seem to be a package for libsdl*-dev.
22:29:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: which OS?
22:29:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: libsdl-image1.2-dev, etc.
22:29:43 <elliott> honestly, learn to use "aptitude search"...
22:30:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, because I have to leave civilisation very soon.
22:30:34 <ais523> 34.9's my record on 1-1; 27.1's the theoretical minimum (found by a brute-force search)
22:30:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: tab-complete them?
22:31:06 <ais523> most of the levels don't have targets
22:31:12 <ais523> as IIRC they're theoretical minimum + a percentage
22:31:30 <ais523> and most of the minimums haven't been brute-forced
22:31:50 <elliott> Are you sure there's no better algorithm than brute-force? :P
22:32:01 <ais523> no, in fact there are better algorithms than brute-force
22:32:04 <ais523> I just haven't written them
22:32:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is it working?
22:32:23 <elliott> ais523: is A* always optimal, though?
22:32:35 <ais523> as long as your estimator obeys the right rules
22:32:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Enjoy pain.
22:32:57 <ais523> hey, it's not that bad early
22:33:09 <ais523> what's annoying me at the moment is its jumping to 1024x768 resolution
22:33:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you stub out QuarterPercentCompletion with return ...I forget, some value, you can access all the levels
22:33:27 <elliott> ignore ais523's insane naming scheme
22:33:38 <elliott> aso, wtf does "//tk:" stand for?
22:33:45 <ais523> it's my equivalent of TODO
22:33:49 <ais523> it doesn't really stand for anything
22:33:53 <ais523> the slashes are required, though
22:33:57 <ais523> even in other commenting syntaxes
22:34:11 <ais523> so you get, say, /* //tk: */ in C89
22:34:18 * elliott decides that ais523 is vaguely insane.
22:34:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He says, after five seconds of playing.
22:34:59 <elliott> ais523: you're using DOUBLES! that's SLOW!
22:35:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the rule is that letting A touch T or G touch C, unless they're part of the level itself, is an instant loss
22:35:22 <elliott> /* //tk: set the 399 to 360 when level 100 is working correctly */
22:35:24 <ais523> where "touch" means "adjacent"
22:35:27 <elliott> so yes, 399 is the correct return, I think
22:35:38 <elliott> note that using that will mess up your save file, I think
22:35:39 <ais523> elliott: no, it has to be lower than the value there
22:35:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr stub out QuarterPercentCompletion to return 392 and backup your save to view all levels
22:36:15 <ais523> 399's the unlock percentage (well, 1/400age) for level 100 because it doesn't work properly atm
22:36:24 <ais523> I plan to make it larger than other levels are
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22:36:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ENJOY DNA MAZE
22:37:05 <elliott> ais523: can I just say that your indentation style for DNA Maze is impressively repulsive
22:37:16 <elliott> although, I propose that you put a space after function names in future, just to make it even worse
22:37:19 <elliott> (but not after control structures)
22:37:29 <ais523> elliott: it's designed to offend everyone equally
22:37:34 <ais523> also, it's quite easy to get used to after a bit
22:38:45 <elliott> a VERY SECRET GAME that you've heard NOTHING ABOUT
22:39:03 <ais523> it's an unfinished computer game I've been working on on and off for ages
22:39:26 <elliott> ais523: btw, theoretical opinion: are there valid infinite Underload programs?
22:39:45 <elliott> ais523: (I strongly suggest "no"; if there are, then there is a program which prints out Chaitin's constant, which is just /wrong/, because the language is then super-Turing)
22:39:56 <ais523> there's no reason you couldn't execute one if you had a method of knowing what it was
22:40:22 <elliott> ais523: "theoretical" opinion, not practical
22:40:31 <elliott> does the set of Underload programs include any infinite elements?
22:40:31 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure I understand the question
22:40:50 <ais523> and I'm not sure why yes would imply that you could print Chaitin's constant
22:41:07 <ais523> without the ability to execute an infinite number of programs in parallel in finite time
22:41:13 <elliott> ais523: obvious 1: Chaitin's constant has a binary representation
22:41:22 <elliott> (digit 1)S(digit 2)S(digit 3)S...
22:41:43 <ais523> elliott: surely, infinitely long programs in any other lang would have the same problem
22:41:45 <elliott> if the set of Underload programs includes infinite programs, then this is an Underload program that prints Chaitin's constant
22:41:52 <elliott> which is why they're not considered to exist
22:41:57 <ais523> cat is superturing by the same definition
22:42:19 <ais523> just like, say, tm32 is Turing-complete because it can run a TC program on "sub-Turing input"
22:42:20 <elliott> because it isn't really a language
22:42:33 <ais523> (and is interpreted by cat)
22:42:34 <elliott> ais523: err, isn't that a position you _hold_? :P
22:42:50 <elliott> <ais523> just like, say, tm32 is Turing-complete because it can run a TC program on "sub-Turing input"
22:43:03 <ais523> well, I mean, giving an arbitrary language super-Turing input can produce super-Turing output
22:43:11 <ais523> even if the lang itself is just an FSM
22:43:23 <ais523> the difficulty is defining what it means for a string to have a computational class
22:43:39 <elliott> [[In Invertible Syntax Descriptions: Unifying Parsing and Pretty Printing, Rendel Tillmann and Klaus Ostermann at the University of Marburg, Germany apply the "don't repeat yourself" principle to parsers and pretty printers.]]
22:43:42 <ais523> but I think most langs become super-Turing if given Chaitin's constant as an input
22:43:43 <elliott> hey, I know that doesn't work!
22:43:47 <elliott> clearly they are stupid :-P
22:44:02 <ais523> just like they become super-Turing if given a halting oracle
22:44:24 <ais523> elliott: unparsing a parse tree into a program?
22:44:35 <ais523> it isn't obviously impossible that you couldn't write a program that goes both ways
22:44:36 <elliott> ais523: == pretty printing
22:44:46 <elliott> the point is that you can't give them both the same definition
22:44:50 <ais523> well, it depends on how pretty you want your output to be
22:44:50 <elliott> because IIRC you're limited to applicative
22:45:00 <ais523> it might even work in Python
22:45:01 <elliott> there's some limitation, anyway, that seriously restricts what you can parse that way
22:45:05 <elliott> ais523: YOU ARE BEING VORPAL
22:45:19 <ais523> my joke was that for any Python parse tree, there's only one source that produces it
22:45:24 <ais523> which is not quite true, but close
22:45:26 <elliott> ais523: I am talking about a theoretical point and you are saying "well of course you can hack up a python program to do both those things" which is /not/ the point
22:45:29 <elliott> oh, I wrote that before you mentioned python
22:46:02 <ais523> mentioning python makes me not vorpal?
22:46:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:46:11 <Vorpal> <ais523> it might even work in Python <-- or lisps
22:46:13 <elliott> it leaves your vorpalness unchanged
22:46:19 <ais523> Vorpal: but then it wouldn't indent properly
22:46:29 <ais523> elliott: I don't see why parsing has to be implemented monad-based
22:46:55 <Vorpal> elliott, also I wouldn't have checked back unless you had highlighted me
22:47:10 * Mathnerd314 is reminded that he wanted to write a go parser using arrows
22:47:15 <elliott> ais523: it was a combination of two theoretical results, (1) combinator parsers that are only Xs and not Ys cannot parse Z (where Z includes things like most programming languages, I think); (2) two-way parsers are not Ys, only Xs
22:48:12 <ais523> elliott: that result might not prevent the idea of a two-way parser, though
22:48:15 <Mathnerd314> (arrows are simultaneously more and less powerful than monads, so they rock for... everything)
22:48:33 <ais523> because of a mismatch on assumptions
22:48:33 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that doesn't even make any sense
22:48:39 <oerjan> <elliott> does the set of Underload programs include any infinite elements? <-- well, ((x)~a*^:^):^ is computationally indistinguishable from xxxxxxx...
22:48:51 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but you can only construct _computable_ programs that way
22:48:55 <elliott> which is what stops Chaitin
22:49:15 <ais523> elliott: I'm inclined to say that infinite Underload programs can exist, but must be computable
22:49:44 <Mathnerd314> elliott: the type is more general, so you can restrict it to something less powerful than a monad, or use Kleisli arrows, or use something with lots of extra arrow operations that's more powerful than a monad
22:50:00 <elliott> Mathnerd314: the type of what?
22:50:13 <ais523> Mathnerd314: does this have anything to do with monads and arrows from category theory?
22:50:23 <elliott> that doesn't make any sense
22:50:29 <elliott> every arrow has a certain kind, yes
22:50:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:50:38 <elliott> but arrows are types, they don't have types, so hat are you talking about?
22:50:46 <ais523> hmm, the Haskell concept seems quite different from the category-theoretical concept
22:50:54 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:51:03 <ais523> but then, Haskell monad != category monad in terms of what you use them for
22:51:14 <elliott> ais523: not if you're edward kmett
22:51:16 <ais523> most programming languages form categories in which arrows correspond to functions, and monads to types
22:51:29 <elliott> he does things in the Hask category :-D
22:51:47 <elliott> ais523: not even joking, he has a Hask type
22:52:31 <elliott> "Make it clearer when we are dealing with the category (->) that we mean the category of haskell types via its Hom bifunctor (->)
22:53:18 <elliott> Where did the pygtk documentation get to...
22:54:16 <Mathnerd314> hmm, maybe type should have been plural, since I was talking about the types that can be given Arrow instances
22:55:00 <Mathnerd314> and, viewed that way, arrows are always more powerful than monads
22:55:30 <elliott> Mathnerd314: how are you defining powerful
22:56:11 <Mathnerd314> elliott: number of instances. every monad is an arrow, but not vice-versa.
22:56:24 <elliott> Mathnerd314: so? every monad is a
22:56:31 <elliott> Mathnerd314: does that make Nothings more powerful than monads?
22:56:36 <elliott> let's use Nothings instead of Monads for everything!!
22:57:17 <Mathnerd314> well, that's the point... you can't use Nothings for useful programs. but you can use Arrows instead of Monads for everything!
22:57:26 <elliott> that's not even vaguely true!
22:57:32 <elliott> you can't use arrows for the things that only monads can do, not every arrow
22:57:39 <elliott> that's why the concept of "monad" still exists!
22:57:45 <elliott> there's nothing wrong with monads.
22:58:13 <Mathnerd314> monads are arrows with an instance of the ArrowApply class. pretty simple.
22:58:34 <elliott> Mathnerd314: *monads are arrows with an instance of the Monad class.
22:58:48 <elliott> what you're saying is, "you can use arrows that are monads for everything you can use monads for"
22:59:34 <Mathnerd314> hmm... but you can generalize programs using ArrowApply to programs using less-powerful features more easily than you can programs using monads
23:00:17 <elliott> Mathnerd314: all you're saying is that the Monad class in Haskell should have Arrow as a superclass somewhere in the chain
23:00:23 <elliott> similarly, it should have Functor above it.
23:00:28 <elliott> but that doesn't mean arrows are better than monads.
23:00:35 <elliott> it just means that haskell's definition of monad is imperfect.
23:00:47 <elliott> Use {-# LANGUAGE NoImplicitPrelude #-}, define your own hierarchy
23:01:20 <Mathnerd314> Arrow has a completely different kind. Monad a is an arrow of type () ~> a
23:01:51 <elliott> Mathnerd314: instance Arrow (mm () a) => Monadd mm
23:02:46 <elliott> argh, where is the bloody gtksourceview2 documentation
23:02:57 <Mathnerd314> it would be instance Arrow mm => Monad (mm ())
23:03:21 <elliott> Mathnerd314: oh, of course
23:03:32 <elliott> I think you can do something like
23:03:48 <elliott> class (Arrow a, m ~ a ()) => Monad m
23:04:30 <Mathnerd314> still waiting for "Haskell Type Constraints Unleashed!" to get into GHC...
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23:07:07 <Mathnerd314> (that would allow backwards-compatible class refactoring)
23:07:38 <elliott> who cares about back-compat :P
23:08:47 <olsner> backward-compat is boring, just recompile/rewrite everything
23:09:02 <olsner> so it becomes as new and shiny as its dependencies
23:09:24 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you can't go all "monads suck everyone use arrows!" and then claim to care about backwards-compatibility
23:09:56 <Mathnerd314> but it is backwards-compatible... you can use everything in monad-land pretty easily as an arrow
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23:11:13 <elliott> bleh, how do you do generic icons in pygtk again...
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23:19:04 <oerjan> i sense a duality here - the concept of Arrow is more powerful than Monad because it applies to more instances, while each individual Monad is more powerful than if it were just an Arrow.
23:19:29 <oerjan> same kind of reversal of order as in some other kinds of duality
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23:23:06 <elliott> oerjan: well that's pretty much the definition of a hierarchy
23:23:12 <elliott> things further down the hierarchy are more detailed, but equally or less numerous
23:23:25 <elliott> we define powerful = more detailed
23:23:33 <elliott> ergo, more powerful = less general
23:23:47 <elliott> but then some people think general = powerful
23:23:49 <elliott> because it applies to more things
23:23:52 <elliott> so more powerful = less powerful
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23:43:24 <Sgeo> What must O'Brien do?
23:43:52 <Sgeo> And damn spoilery YouTube comments
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23:45:21 <Sgeo> Or, that spoiler was not spoilery as what it's referring to is revealed in less than 2 minutes
23:53:58 * pikhq loves living in the future.
23:54:42 <pikhq> Disease eradication. Fuck yeah.
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23:56:41 <elliott> My Ubuntu mirror is Umea university
23:57:10 <pikhq> elliott: Are you a disease that in some way affects humanity?
23:57:22 <pikhq> Then you should be fucking terrified.
23:58:53 <oerjan> Umeå is a scary place indeed
23:59:47 <oerjan> (It used to be our final stop whenever we took a holiday trip to Sweden. The only thing I remember is its harbor.)