00:00:12 <elliott> oerjan: The rest has been blocked out by your mind for your own safety?
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00:01:54 <oerjan> i have somewhat more vague memories of Lycksele Djurpark.
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00:10:11 <Ilari> Hmm... I should try implementing the new SHA-512/224 and SHA-512/256. :-)
00:13:29 <Ilari> Well, so new I haven't even got my hands on the specifications yet.
00:13:56 <elliott> Ilari: sha-2 came out in 2001
00:15:47 <Ilari> elliott: You are probably confusing those hashes with SHA-224 and SHA-256.
00:16:06 <elliott> Ilari: Well, SHA-256 is part of SHA-2.
00:16:10 <elliott> In cryptography, SHA-2 is a set of cryptographic hash functions (SHA-224, SHA-256, SHA-384, SHA-512) designed by the National Security Agency (NSA) and published in 2001 by the NIST as a U.S. Federal Information Processing Standard. SHA stands for Secure Hash Algorithm. SHA-2 includes a significant number of changes from its predecessor, SHA-1. SHA-2 consists of a set of four hash functions with digests that are 224, 256, 384 or 512 bits.
00:16:19 <elliott> So... nope, they came out in 2001
00:19:19 <Ilari> For some reason, looks like they have pulled the specs. Actually, that's not the only spec pulled and the site was down today, so I think they are having technical problems.
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00:20:14 <Ilari> SHA-512/224 is a 224 bit hash. SHA-512/256 is 256 bit hash.
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00:20:57 <elliott> It's (SHA-512/224), not SHA-(512/224)
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00:21:06 <elliott> Ilari: Aren't they just the relevant-sized prefixes of SHA-512?
00:22:15 <Ilari> With different IV.
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00:22:38 <elliott> "Object Oriented PHP-GTK2"
00:24:55 <Ilari> I think the IVs would be pretty predictable. Unfortunately, I don't know what way around those would be.
00:27:48 <Ilari> Namely, First 64 bits of fractional parts of square roots of 17th to 24th prime (and 25th to 32nd prime).
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00:40:30 <elliott> pikhq_: I need you to stop me unleashing an untold horror onto this world.
00:42:38 <elliott> pikhq_: You're scared already!
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00:42:55 <elliott> pikhq_: An editor where Python serves the purpose of elisp in Emacs. Even _I_ think that's awful.
00:44:07 <elliott> pikhq_: This awful situation has arisen from me writing leaden in Python and thinking that some sort of extension mechanism is probably easier than settings.
00:45:07 <pikhq_> Hmm. I'm really thinking that I ought to set up this freaking router that I've had for ages now.
00:45:36 <pikhq_> But I still don't know what to freaking *do* with it, aside from stick a replacement firmware on it.
00:45:49 <pikhq_> elliott: D-Link and OpenWRT-able.
00:46:04 <pikhq_> And DD-WRT. And a large number of other firmwares.
00:46:12 <elliott> I can never figure out which of OpenWRT/dd-wrt is nicer.
00:46:26 <elliott> (I own a Linksys router but it wouldn't work with my connection.)
00:48:20 <pikhq_> Sadly, I can't make it *that* useful as I would be behind another router that I can't configure.
00:48:25 <pikhq_> And I am *not* fucking NATNATing.
00:49:06 <elliott> pikhq_: Why can't you use the router you bought alone? Is it a combined router-modem you're stuck with?
00:49:15 <elliott> Are you sure a generic modem wouldn't work? (You on ADSL?)
00:50:16 <pikhq_> elliott: Actually, it's my step-dad's router, and he's reluctant to let me do anything to his tech.
00:50:37 <elliott> pikhq_: I WOULDN'T BLAME HIM, WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT COMPUTERS HA H
00:50:51 <pikhq_> His router is likely to blame for my constant dropping connection.
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00:59:34 <elliott> Why does software force me to write my own. Sheesh.
01:19:02 <pikhq_> Looking at Wireshark, I get some weird-ass TCP behavior.
01:19:49 <pikhq_> RTT goes along at sub-0.1s and then suddenly jumps to 0.6s... RTT goes down a bit, then jumps again...
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01:30:35 <elliott> Oh hey, Homestuck just stopped making any sense whatsoever. JUST HOW I LIKE IT
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02:17:45 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/PitchBendMadness-2011-02-18.ogg More nonsense.
02:17:53 <elliott> MAN keybindings in GTK are DIFFICULT.
02:18:00 <elliott> Gregor: Dear god it hurts.
02:18:15 <elliott> Gregor: This would be excelent game music.
02:18:33 <Gregor> OK, making that highest note that high was a mistake.
02:18:39 <Gregor> My poor, poor eardrums.
02:19:07 <Gregor> What I was first trying to do was write some very silly game opening music. Then I started getting too silly. Then I started getting NOT SILLY ENOUGH.
02:20:18 <Gregor> Also, the weird horn trill thing near the beginning was totally a fluke.
02:20:39 <Ilari> pikhq: Bufferbloat?
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02:21:06 <pikhq> Ilari: Quite likely. Though I should note I've actually tried to mitigate it...
02:21:17 <pikhq> (as best as I can *without being able to freaking touch the router*)
02:21:38 <Gregor> elliott: Well that's a given :P
02:21:46 <pikhq> (though bandwidth shaping myself should help the common case, as I'm the heavy bandwidth user here.)
02:22:03 <elliott> pikhq: Can't you just organise a night-time physical heist?
02:22:11 <pikhq> elliott: He'd notice.
02:22:22 <elliott> pikhq: I don't mean replacing it.
02:22:27 <elliott> Just doing what you can with the existing hardware.
02:22:34 <elliott> Or does fixing it involve turning a gigantic switch from RED to BLUE? :-P
02:22:43 <pikhq> Fixing it involves logging in.
02:23:00 <pikhq> Though I *could* brute-force it...
02:23:04 <elliott> pikhq: You could reset the router settings.
02:23:11 <elliott> There's always a simple physical way to do it.
02:23:17 <pikhq> And then lose the Wi-Fi password which I don't know.
02:23:26 <elliott> pikhq: Surely you can heistify an ethernet cable.
02:23:53 <elliott> pikhq: Brute-forcing might work if he's really, really bad at picking passwords, I guess :P
02:24:06 <elliott> You could try telnetting in or something, that might even work without a password.
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02:26:21 <elliott> pikhq: But, uhh, you could heist like this: Physical router reset -> Ethernet cable -> fix shit -> set shit back up -> heistify his computer and fix the password? OK, it's impractical :-P
02:28:57 <Gregor> OMG, greatest almond soda ever.
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02:29:09 <Gregor> This tops every other soda I have ever made.
02:29:46 <elliott> Gregor: ;_; i fucking want some
02:30:07 <elliott> and extract the contents (almond soda, "greatest ever")
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02:52:12 -!- elliott has set topic: inscrutable, yet AFRO | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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03:01:16 <elliott> Sgeo what on EARTH did you DO
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03:02:45 <pikhq> Gregor: Be careful not to do too much cyanide.
03:04:46 <pikhq> Oh, never mind, it's only bitter almonds that contain cyanide.
03:05:53 <elliott> Gregor: EAGERLY AWAITING: BITTER ALMOND SODA
03:06:16 <Sgeo> elliott, sadly, I have done no one
03:06:20 <elliott> its funny becauseturing killed himself
03:06:41 <elliott> ALSO BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING SGEO CAN NOT MAKE ME FACEPALM ABOUT
03:06:44 <elliott> WHICH IS QUITE AN ACHIEVEMENT REALLY
03:06:53 <elliott> NOT ONE I APPRECIATE THOUGH
03:07:03 <elliott> I MEAN, SCHEME-WISE, OF THINGS GRAND, GRAND SCHEME OF .. I'M SURE YOU CAN ARRANGE THE WORDS MENTALLY
03:07:10 <elliott> I MEAN GOSH IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE ALL STUPID. ONLY MOST OF YOU
03:07:29 * Sgeo steals elliott's capslock key
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03:10:07 <elliott> BLANKETS. WHAT WE NEED IS BLANKETS. AND A WORLD WITHOUT HATRED.
03:10:42 <elliott> SEE SGEO. THE THING YOU ARE ASSUMING IS, THAT I AM USING CAPS LOCK.
03:10:51 <elliott> NOW, WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE, FOR THIS, ASSERTION; OTHER THAN THAT, I AM TALKING IN CAPITALS
03:10:57 <elliott> THE ANSWER IS: ZERO EVIDENCE (O, 0)
03:11:02 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
03:11:03 <elliott> SO LIEK TO BE THE STFUING UP
03:11:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:11:45 <pikhq_> COPULATE WITH THIS PILE OF FECES.
03:12:31 * pikhq_ would like to point and laugh at some people.
03:12:38 <pikhq_> "May 21, 2011, the world will end."
03:12:50 <elliott> THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WILL BE SAYING WHEN THE WORLD ENDS
03:13:08 <elliott> [[Will may 21 2011 be horrible for those left out?
03:13:08 <elliott> There is plenty of evidence that on 21 May 2011 will be the rapture of the true believers. But for those fet out it will be 6 months of torment,terror and horror as predicted in the book of Revelation chapter 9 verse 5. Then,on 21 October 2011 the unsaved and the entire universe will burned up.
03:13:11 <pikhq_> elliott: I doubt I will be saying much as the sun dies.
03:13:14 <elliott> IT MAY BE HORRIBLE; THAT IS TRUE .
03:13:22 <elliott> Camping's trademarks include his deep, sonorous voice coupled with a slow cadence. He is best known for the prediction of Christ's second coming in May 2011.
03:13:28 <elliott> WELL IT IS BUT IT'S A DOUCHEBAG WORD
03:13:35 <elliott> PIKHQ. HOW SONOROUS ARE YOU FEELING LATELY.
03:14:10 <pikhq_> I have a deep, sonorous voice.
03:15:13 <pikhq_> Anyways. The various rapture predictions tend to be so very comical.
03:15:32 * Sgeo steals elliott's shift keys
03:15:49 <pikhq_> If any of it came true, though, I would have to declare that at least *one* person alive today is at least 2000 years ago.
03:16:22 <pikhq_> (fun fact: in one of the Gospels, Jesus claimed that some people in the audience would live to see the end.)
03:16:29 <elliott> ONE PERSON ALIVE TODAY IS AT LEAST 2000 YEARS AGO?
03:16:31 <elliott> YOUR SENTENCES DON'T PARSE DUDE
03:16:39 <elliott> KINDA LIKE RELIGION HEH <--- CONTEXTUAL JOKE; RELEVANT;
03:16:45 <elliott> OH. WELL NOW YOU'VE GONE AND RUINED IT.
03:17:01 <pikhq_> Colorless green dreams sleep furiously!
03:17:38 <elliott> COLOURLESS GREEN PIKHQ SLEEPS FURIOUSLY AFTER BEING KNOCKED ON THE HEAD BY HOW COOL HE ISN'T
03:17:42 <elliott> wow that might be the best sentence
03:18:24 * pikhq_ is even *more* amused by those biblical literalists now.
03:18:56 <pikhq_> In addition to believing an acid trip, they must clearly *also* believe there is at least one person who is immortal right now.
03:19:05 <pikhq_> And that God doomed us all to die.
03:19:23 <elliott> pikhq_: well clearly we have to INTEGRATE THIS WITH LIKE
03:19:26 <elliott> THE PLOT OF THE POPULAR MOVIE
03:19:30 <elliott> WOULD THIS NOT PROVIDE CONSISTENCY
03:19:31 <pikhq_> It was definitely an acid trip or something similar.
03:19:40 <elliott> WHAT I AM SAYING IS, MAYBE HOLLYWOOD IS ACTUALLY PROPHET.
03:19:51 <pikhq_> elliott: Except that God doomed us all to die back in Genesis.
03:20:30 <pikhq_> Hmm. Well, it could *work* if that one immortal person is Lazarus.
03:20:36 <pikhq_> After all, Lazarus did die.
03:21:59 <elliott> YOUR LOGIC HAS CONVERTED ME.
03:22:21 * elliott checks off "GET CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY BY PIKACHU" off LIST OF THINGS TO DO.
03:22:28 <elliott> I KNEW I WOULD GET IT DONE SOMETIME
03:22:43 <zzo38> I think it is proper that eventually you are going to be dead. Otherwise it will be overpopulation?
03:23:47 <pikhq_> zzo38: Or there's no urge to reproduce beyond environmental capacity.
03:24:06 <pikhq_> Which an omnipotent deity could do with ease.
03:27:47 <pikhq_> Of course, there's a lot of things that an omnipotent deity could trivially do to make this a better world.
03:28:19 <pikhq_> Every instance of someone being even a slight ass, for instance, could be prevented.
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03:28:48 <pikhq_> All natural disasters.
03:29:35 <pikhq_> If God exists, he's a lazy, apathetic bastard.
03:30:19 <pikhq_> Which conflicts with, well, most all monotheistic religions.
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03:30:35 <elliott_> can you hear the things i am saying
03:30:54 <elliott_> pikhq_: there has been some INSANE server situation! me and zzo38 were talking. but we did not see your messages, that are on clog.
03:31:00 <elliott_> respond so i can verify that you are hearing me
03:31:08 <elliott_> <pikhq_> Which an omnipotent deity could do with ease.
03:31:09 <elliott_> <elliott> zzo38: Overpopulation only if population increases.
03:31:09 <elliott_> <zzo38> I think that if people learn to be immortal, that it is proper for mortal creatures to eat those who are immortal.
03:31:15 <elliott_> <elliott> i would `addquote that but there is a limit to the amount of crazy that HackEgo can hold
03:31:15 <elliott_> <elliott> and that would SO go over quota.
03:31:15 <elliott_> <zzo38> elliott: Eventually the population will be increases, ALL THE TIME. That is why you have to be caution!!
03:31:16 <elliott_> <elliott> zzo38: Why does the population have to increase?
03:31:18 <elliott_> <elliott> Reproductive urges would become basically obsolete in the face of immortality.
03:31:22 <elliott_> <elliott> And at that point could be easily removed.
03:31:24 <elliott_> <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't *have* to, but it does anyways. And it does because it can.
03:31:26 <elliott_> <elliott> Thus, no more population increase.
03:31:28 <elliott_> <elliott> zzo38: By what logic?
03:31:30 <elliott_> <zzo38> What is the quota, 65536? If so, we are still not over the quota yet.
03:31:38 <elliott_> <elliott> are you actually just a really advanced markov chain
03:31:40 <elliott_> <zzo38> elliott: I do not want to have children, but that is simply my choice. I do not want to be married either. OK
03:31:43 <elliott_> <zzo38> elliott: And I am not just a really advanced markov chain.
03:31:45 <elliott_> <elliott> my perspective has just totally changed. best markov chain ever!
03:31:51 <elliott_> <elliott> zzo38: it seems that according to tunes.org we are not here.
03:31:53 <elliott_> <Gregor> Almmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmond soda!
03:32:03 <elliott_> pikhq_: but the only relevant line is
03:32:06 <elliott_> <zzo38> I think that if people learn to be immortal, that it is proper for mortal creatures to eat those who are immortal.
03:32:20 <elliott_> what i am saying is: cannibalism.
03:33:18 <elliott> zzo38: Overpopulation only if population increases.
03:33:18 <zzo38> I think that if people learn to be immortal, that it is proper for mortal creatures to eat those who are immortal.
03:33:18 <elliott> i would `addquote that but there is a limit to the amount of crazy that HackEgo can hold
03:33:18 <elliott> and that would SO go over quota.
03:33:18 <zzo38> elliott: Eventually the population will be increases, ALL THE TIME. That is why you have to be caution!!
03:33:18 <elliott> zzo38: Why does the population have to increase?
03:33:18 <elliott> Reproductive urges would become basically obsolete in the face of immortality.
03:33:18 <Sgeo> If Heaven can exist, why does Earth exist?
03:33:18 <elliott> And at that point could be easily removed.
03:33:19 <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't *have* to, but it does anyways. And it does because it can.
03:33:19 <elliott> Thus, no more population increase.
03:33:19 <zzo38> What is the quota, 65536? If so, we are still not over the quota yet.
03:33:19 <zzo38> (I mean in HackEgo)
03:33:19 <elliott> are you actually just a really advanced markov chain
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03:33:20 <zzo38> elliott: I do not want to have children, but that is simply my choice. I do not want to be married either. OK
03:33:20 <zzo38> elliott: And I am not just a really advanced markov chain.
03:33:20 <elliott> my perspective has just totally changed. best markov chain ever!
03:33:20 <elliott> zzo38: it seems that according to tunes.org we are not here.
03:33:20 <Gregor> Almmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmond soda!
03:33:20 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:33:21 <zzo38> The tunes.org logs looks like something mixed up
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03:34:16 <elliott_> did you guys just see all my log
03:34:18 <zzo38> Finally it seems to be fix a bit.
03:34:20 <Gregor> I saw you and zzo38 talking.
03:34:32 <elliott_> after realising pikhq was talking to clog
03:34:39 <zzo38> All messages have received after typing DIE a few times and getting permission denied.
03:34:41 <elliott_> and i could talk to pikhq but not zzo
03:34:56 <elliott_> i saw myself and Gregor and it was all ghosts.
03:35:12 <elliott_> Gregor did you see me paste a log. before i talked to zzo38.
03:35:28 <Gregor> BEFORE you talked to zzo38?
03:35:50 <elliott_> Gregor: look at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/11.02.18
03:35:56 <elliott_> you can see me pasting the log of a conversation right before i have it :D
03:36:10 <zzo38> I saw the messages on clog a few seconds before I received them in IRC!
03:38:17 <zzo38> But I think it is fixed by now
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03:43:06 <pikhq_> elliott_: I saw the log, then I saw what you gays said before that.
03:43:14 <pikhq_> The fuck was that, Freud?
03:43:24 <pikhq_> I also saw a PM from you.
03:43:24 <elliott_> haha so it all came at once just now
03:43:36 <elliott_> imagine what it must be like in #ubuntu right now.
03:43:39 <elliott_> probably just as confusing as usual.
03:43:40 <pikhq_> Actually, it came at once 10 minutes ago, when I was AFK.
03:43:57 <elliott_> i have this sneaking suspicion that i can only talk to one person at a time
03:44:07 <elliott_> first zzo38, then pikhq_, then... Gregor? and zzo38 together. now you.
03:44:21 <Gregor> elliott_: SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
03:44:26 <zzo38> I can read the messages too.
03:44:28 <elliott_> Gregor: i've said like two things
03:44:32 <elliott_> evidently you are getting flooded :D
03:44:57 <elliott_> pikhq_: do i still got a stable connection to you hi
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03:45:51 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Congrats on asking the big question that is *the* major flaw in traditional monotheism!
03:46:29 <zzo38> I received notice from: fizzie,Sgeo,Leonidas,sebbu2,olsner,variable,dbc,yiyus,clog,elliott_,coppro,Mannerisky,comex_,Gregor,ineiros_,pikhq_,aloril,fizzie,yorick,Gregor,oerjan,tswett,shachaf,mycroftiv,Deewiant,quintopia,SimonRC,Zuu,lifthrasiir,pingveno,Zwaarddijk,jix_,copumpkin. I did receive twice from some
03:46:30 <elliott_> * Gregor (~Gregor@codu.org) has left #esoteric ("Leaving until you stop playing "What's wrong with the network theatre"")
03:46:34 <pikhq_> "Why the hell would a benevolent, omnipotent God make Heaven, Hell, and Earth, and not just create paradise?"
03:46:42 <elliott_> don't ping whole sections of the channel like that
03:46:45 <elliott_> you'll annoy/wake up tons of people
03:46:59 <zzo38> pikhq_: There is no paradise. Paradise is wrong!
03:47:06 <quintopia> pikhq_: the real major flaw is the concept of salvation
03:47:11 <pikhq_> quintopia: Under traditional monotheism, after life, good people get paradise.
03:47:16 <Sgeo> quintopia, that's just Christianity
03:47:37 <zzo38> Paradise is, in fact, just as wrong as anything else!!
03:47:37 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:47:53 <quintopia> Sgeo: no, that is every western and eastern religion ever
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03:48:04 <pikhq_> So, clearly merely being boring is not a problem with the claimed deity.
03:48:16 <elliott_> zzo38 is being annoying, pikhq_ is talking about monotheism, Gregor is raging
03:48:23 <Sgeo> elliott_, what am I doing?
03:48:46 <pikhq_> quintopia: But, yes, salvation is also quite a bit of an issue.
03:49:12 <pikhq_> Certainly if it were anything like what it's claimed to be, salvation would be both obvious and noteworthy.
03:49:37 <pikhq_> Imagine a religion whose followers we'd call saints. As a whole.
03:49:40 <elliott_> i am in approval of this philosophy
03:50:06 <quintopia> pikhq_: this is a religion i could get behind
03:50:15 <quintopia> pikhq_: as long as i could still eat cow
03:50:26 <pikhq_> quintopia: Indeed, it would very obviously have at least some merit to its claims.
03:50:58 <elliott_> might this be another pikhq_ quintopia me Sgeo bubble
03:51:04 <elliott_> maybe we've transported ourselves
03:51:09 <zzo38> I am of a different opinion, which is of a philosophy that the religion where nobody can be called saints.
03:51:11 <pikhq_> Even more so if its followers' every need were provided for.
03:52:02 <quintopia> pikhq_: i sometimes suspect that the amish get more right than most. they have things like *family* and *not being dicks* and don't have things like *murder* and *grand theft*
03:52:11 <pikhq_> Ah, hell, let's add more way for a religion to be obviously true.
03:52:20 <pikhq_> Sermons at their weekly meetings are done by God.
03:52:36 <elliott_> quintopia: but they do have things like *no fucking electricity* and *totally lopsided family trees*! :p
03:52:47 <zzo38> pikhq_: But can they do that? I do not think so?
03:53:10 <pikhq_> zzo38: An omnipotent deity would *certainly* be capable of giving weekly speeches all over the world.
03:53:33 <elliott_> GOD AFTER THAT FUCKING BABEL FISH. THOUGHT YOU WOULD HAVE ALL CAUGHT ON
03:53:35 <elliott_> I'M NOT DOING THAT PROOF STUFF ANY MORE
03:53:35 <quintopia> elliott_: i think no electricity is a reasonable trade for no murder. it'd be nice if we could get both, though
03:54:06 <elliott_> quintopia: well no i think electricity is more important in the short term. because a world without electricity and with no murder is very obviously non-ideal, since such a world is very likely to have e.g. death
03:54:09 <pikhq_> elliott_: Jesus was claimed to be in the habit of giving proof like it was candy.
03:54:17 <quintopia> pikhq_: i know a few religions where speeches are done by an incarnation of god on a weekly or daily basis
03:54:17 <zzo38> The reason they do not use electricity, is to save energy.
03:54:18 <elliott_> quintopia: and electricity is kinda vital to the whole superintelligence scenario.
03:54:22 <quintopia> pikhq_: we call these things cults
03:54:26 <elliott_> so in the short term it is preferable to have electricity.
03:54:32 <elliott_> because it causes much fewer deaths in the long-run.
03:54:32 <quintopia> elliott_: the amish have no electric bill!
03:54:36 <elliott_> zzo38: no, they don't use it because they don't like it
03:54:46 <quintopia> elliott_: they are still okay if the grid goes down!
03:54:53 <elliott_> quintopia: that's only a problem in ameridumb
03:55:00 <pikhq_> quintopia: How many of them have just straight-up had God descend from on high and speak once a week, every week, at every relevant congregation simultaneously?
03:55:03 <quintopia> elliott_: THEY ARE STILL OKAY IF A MASSIVE EMP DETONATES ALL OVER EARTH
03:55:20 <elliott_> quintopia: APART FROM ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE THEY DEPEND ON YOU MEAN?
03:55:43 <elliott_> (THEY OWN CARS SO IT'S CLEARLY NON-ZERO)
03:55:47 <elliott_> this is a Fact, spelled with a capital F and then act
03:55:58 <zzo38> Or you can just walk, if it is not too far.
03:55:58 <pikhq_> The Amish are not a monolithic group.
03:56:04 <shachaf> Is zzo38's bug-everybody mode strictly necessary?
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03:56:25 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
03:56:45 <elliott_> he invokes it on a semi-regular basis.
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03:57:51 <zzo38> Sgeo: You blamed me for what?
03:57:57 <zzo38> Freedom of speech?
03:58:21 <Sgeo> And I'm to blame for Freedom. And God.
03:58:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: I did not touch the netsplits!
03:58:51 <quintopia> Sgeo: he did the netsplits. both American and Chinese netsplits
03:59:02 <quintopia> AND ENDEAVORED TO COMPLETE TEN SOMERSETS ON SOLID GROUND
03:59:29 <zzo38> Really, I did not touch the netsplits!
03:59:39 <zzo38> Do you think I did?
03:59:49 <elliott_> hey hey guys if we just make this log have some more kilobytes
03:59:53 <elliott_> it will be one of the top sized logs ever!
04:00:10 * Sgeo bytes elliott_
04:00:29 <zzo38> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
04:00:36 <zzo38> Now let's see if this log has some more kilobytes.
04:01:09 <pikhq_> MO'TO KIROHÀITO NI SIYÔ!
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04:02:26 * Sgeo estimates that zzo38's statement has 149 and a third XXXs
04:02:51 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have an IDLE window open, I should just count
04:03:14 <Sgeo> Woo, got it right
04:06:48 <elliott_> quintopia: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.05.28
04:06:48 <elliott_> there are no 300 kilobyte logs. because of science.
04:06:48 <elliott_> quintopia: most of that is bf joust :)
04:06:49 <quintopia> back in the bad old days when strategies were weak and lame?
04:06:49 <elliott_> quintopia: shut your whore mouth.
04:06:49 <elliott_> quintopia: i invented polarity in that log. or the one before it.
04:06:49 <quintopia> did you come up with sieve and kettle then too?
04:06:49 <elliott_> 12:07:58 <ehird> It's donning itself presently.
04:06:49 <elliott_> 12:08:02 <ehird> The goals aren't really lofty
04:06:49 <elliott_> 12:08:11 <ehird> Just "run the program a fuckload of times then average that"
04:06:49 <elliott_> 12:08:28 <GregorR-L> Is "a fuckload" = 21?
04:06:49 <elliott_> 12:08:49 <ehird> That does not take into account...
04:06:49 <elliott_> 12:08:57 <ehird> Any choice between: SIEVE, and: KETTLE!
04:06:49 <elliott_> 12:09:10 <GregorR-L> .....................................................
04:06:49 <elliott_> ^^^ lance, never being implemented
04:06:49 <elliott_> quintopia: i think that was actually a day before or whatever.
04:06:49 <elliott_> quintopia: because i didn't choose any other names
04:06:49 <elliott_> does that answer your question?
04:06:49 <quintopia> lance is never going to be finished, yes?
04:06:50 <elliott_> it's done apart from one parser bug. as i keep saying. which i will fix when i implement it into report.c.
04:06:50 <elliott_> which i might wait for greggsy to fixed-pointify first.
04:06:50 <elliott_> but i HAVE OTHER PROJECTS like SHIRO which needs more fingerprints and LEADEN
04:06:50 <elliott_> so lance remains in its basically-complete state for now.
04:06:50 <elliott_> with nice fucking error messages.
04:06:50 <quintopia> shiro is never going to be finished, yes?
04:11:44 <elliott_> quintopia: it's hard to define finished. it passes mycology and has several fingerprints.
04:11:44 <elliott_> not even ccbi implements all fingerprints. i won't either, for similar reasons
04:11:44 <elliott_> so it could be said that no funge-98 will ever be finished
04:11:44 <zzo38> The reason I put a lot of X is to make long log file.
04:11:44 <quintopia> which fingerprints are not implemented
04:11:44 <elliott_> quintopia: most of them. or do you mean in CCBI?
04:11:44 <elliott_> FNGR, MVRS, WIND, some others i think.
04:11:44 <quintopia> which fingerprints have never been implemented
04:11:45 <elliott_> quintopia: all have been implemented.
04:11:45 <elliott_> but the TRULY insane ones (more insane than time travel) only in rcfunge.
04:11:45 <elliott_> e.g. FNGR, which violates the spec, MVRS, which is just insane, WIND, which is Windows-only, SGNL or something for the same reason
04:11:45 <quintopia> are fingerprints not written in funge itself?
04:15:33 <pikhq_> In a Funge interpreter in Funge.
04:19:32 <zzo38> Is a standard deviation the same as square root of variance? I found two equations for standard deviation, but if you have a list of cards in a set and want to compute the standard deviation of them, which one do you use, the one for population or for sample?
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04:19:32 <elliott_> Gregor: we're not done with network theatre
04:19:32 <quintopia> sqrt of variance is the most commonly used number
04:19:33 <elliott_> pikhq_: FORSOOTH, WHAT IS THIS NETWORK I SEE BEFORE ME
04:19:33 <elliott_> <pikhq> WE SHALL HAVE TO CONSULT GREGOR ON THE MATTER
04:19:33 <elliott_> quintopia: JESTER, PLAY US A TUNE.
04:19:33 <Gregor> Time to document furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls
04:19:33 <quintopia> zzo38: i don't know the conditions under which you divide by n or (n-1)...probably the n-1 thing corrects for the error between using sqrt of variance and sum of abs distances
04:19:33 <zzo38> I have two equations $$\sigma={1\over s_0}\sqrt{s_0s_2-s_1^2}$$ and $$s=\sqrt{s_0s_2-s_1^2\over s_0(s_0-1)}$$
04:19:33 <quintopia> Gregor: document space_elevator while you're at it >.>
04:19:33 <Gregor> quintopia: Idonno wtf it does :P
04:19:39 <zzo38> I notice that even though they are written differently, it can be written the same way just with -1 omitted
04:19:44 <elliott_> quintopia: sorry you forgot to include space in that sentence
04:20:17 <quintopia> elliott_: i didn't have to because i drove it over you and you, being dead, didn't care
04:20:23 <zzo38> (TeX is especially good for mathematics.)
04:20:33 <pikhq_> elliott_: LIES AND DECEIT
04:21:09 <pikhq_> From 1908 to 1966, there was a whitelist of books Catholics were allowed to read.
04:21:33 <zzo38> I did not know that. Now I do know. Is it Vatican II that changed that?
04:21:49 <zzo38> I do know Vatican II changed a lot of things.
04:22:32 <pikhq_> Before that, there was a blacklist of books.
04:22:42 <elliott_> "a whitelist would be shorter"
04:22:42 <pikhq_> The Index Librorum Prohibitorum.
04:22:52 <elliott_> the catholic church sure has wielded power for a long time.
04:23:09 <elliott_> can you even /imagine/ replacing an institution which has existed since 1559 under the same group?
04:23:10 <pikhq_> The term "Roman" in Roman Catholic Church comes from the Roman Empire.
04:23:25 <pikhq_> As it was a Roman institution.
04:23:51 <pikhq_> Absolutely *crazy* how long it's lasted.
04:24:15 <elliott_> i wonder what they put on it in 1559 :)
04:24:45 <oerjan> <elliott_> "this blacklist is too long" <-- some corner of my mind says maybe they changed because some people used the blacklist as encouragement...
04:24:55 <elliott_> oerjan: OH SURE. CHOOSE THE BORING OPTION.
04:25:24 <pikhq_> elliott_: For some time, Bible translations not into Latin.
04:25:51 <elliott_> basically satan just translates bibles all day.
04:26:09 <pikhq_> Much work of science...
04:26:46 <pikhq_> "Poem of the Man God" by Saint Valtorta was on there...
04:27:02 <pikhq_> Yes, a Catholic saint wrote a banned work.
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04:29:24 <elliott_> we got separated again. le sigh.
04:29:24 <zzo38> In Vatican II, science is no longer prohibited, and it is now permitted to do mass and Bible in non-Latin, too. And many other things also become no longer prohibited.
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04:29:25 <pikhq> Sorry, I suck. Valtorta was never canonised.
04:29:25 <quintopia> zzo38: matlab uses sqrt(sum(v.*v)/(n-1)) for its std function. i'd say that's the standard to go by
04:29:25 <pikhq> Mary Kowalska (Saint Faustina), however, was...
04:29:42 <pikhq> I'm seeing myself talk, apparently.
04:29:56 <pikhq> And that definitely confirms WTF has been happening.
04:30:18 <zzo38> quintopia: OK. I can make Plain TeXnicard use that equation. But probably without the square root, unless I can make square root with integers in a good way.
04:30:19 <pikhq> So, it seems that at random, the router decides to buffer like mad.
04:30:27 <oerjan> pikhq: well, these _are_ the end times.
04:30:31 <pikhq> And in doing so kills TCP.
04:30:40 <elliott_> so pikhq i'm reading this old log where you tell me that defining CFLAGS in a tiny makefile for a one-file program is a sin because someone imaginary might use a non-gcc compiler and they'll have to type "CFLAGS=" to get it to work :D
04:30:42 <oerjan> obviously time itself is starting to break down.
04:30:56 <elliott_> does that mean i don't have to go to bed?
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04:31:46 <quintopia> zzo38: like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_square_root
04:32:09 <oerjan> either that, or that you already _are_ in bed. i suggest you go and check.
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04:40:29 <quintopia> YOU MAY BRING OUT THE HARD LIQUORS NOW
04:41:00 <quintopia> i hear a jameson root beer float is quite nice
04:42:06 <zzo38> Can you make *square* root beer?
04:42:16 <zzo38> How many decimal places should the standard deviation have?
04:42:27 <zzo38> And how many decimal places for the mean?
04:43:52 <quintopia> you need probably twice as many decimals for the mean as you want to have in the stdev
04:44:10 <quintopia> i don't really care what you pick, honestly
04:49:07 <Gregor> quintopia: I haven't, the requisite roots for real root beer aren't actually very easy to get, plus that's not the kind of soda I make :P
04:49:38 <Gregor> Ohhey, I could buy gentian root extract ... I could make something like Moxie 8-D
04:50:19 <Gregor> OMG, if I bought sarsaparilla extract and gentian root extract ...
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04:51:37 <Gregor> Sassafras extract is too expensive, I wonder how vital it is ...
04:51:45 <zzo38> I found the other equation for variance: The variance is equal to the mean of the square minus the square of the mean.
04:52:25 <Gregor> Sassafras is like $10/oz >_>
04:53:05 <Gregor> I suppose an ounce is still enough for like 12 liters of soda though ...
04:53:32 <zzo38> And that is easy to do from $s_0$ and $s_1$ and $s_2$
04:53:53 <quintopia> i don't know what those numbers are
04:55:52 <zzo38> $s_0$ is the number of items. $s_1$ is the sum. $s_2$ is the sum of squares.
04:57:03 <Sgeo> "Python programmers can stop chuckling now."
04:57:46 <zzo38> So now the variance is: $$ \left({s_2\over s_0}\right)-\left({s_1\over s_0}\right)^2 $$
04:57:50 <Sgeo> [In a part of this style guide talking about avoiding empty while loops, unless there's a comment inside the body will be, in order to avoid accidental while;
04:57:54 <Sgeo> http://www.artlogic.com/styleguide/formatting.html
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04:57:59 <pikhq> "Hello" is first attested in the 1930s.
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04:59:11 <Gregor> pikhq: ??? to the first, *eh* to the second :P
05:00:08 <pikhq> The hell sort of greeting was used before then?
05:00:42 <pikhq> (abbr. of "How do you do?", IIRC)
05:00:44 <quintopia> no, how do you do long predates texas
05:00:55 <pikhq> Yes, but "howdy" doesn't.
05:08:15 <zzo38> When moving around the terms to make a single fraction, it gets the same as the square of the $\sigma$ equation for standard deviation.
05:08:57 <quintopia> that formula is just a different way of writing variance. it's the same number
05:09:21 <Gregor> Good {morning,day,evening}
05:12:32 <Gregor> I was actually providing a potential answer to "The hell sort of greeting was used before then?"
05:13:24 <zzo38> In the explanation of the algorithms in TeXnicard, I used $Q_0$ to represent the minimum, $Q_4$ for the maximum, $Q_2$ for the median, although the value returned will actually be double the median since the median is not necesarily integer.
05:14:11 <quintopia> it's not clear to me why you need so much stats in a program for making cards...
05:14:12 <zzo38> Is $Q_0$ a standard notation for the minimum?
05:15:17 <Gregor> pikhq: "Hello" is an alteration of "hallo" (1781), which is an alteration of "holla" (1580)
05:15:58 <zzo38> quintopia: The reason is, in case you need to know the average of the cards, and so on.... it just calculates $s_0$ and $s_1$ and $s_2$ and $Q_0$ and $2Q_2$ and $Q_4$, and then in your template you can compute whatever statistics you need from those.
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05:16:07 <Gregor> And apparently "hello" is an Americanism, surplanting the English "hullo"
05:16:36 <quintopia> but the best word america invented was "O.K."
05:16:48 <zzo38> In Italian they say "ready" when answering the telephone.
05:16:50 <quintopia> even countries that don't say hello
05:17:05 <zzo38> I have also heard of one person that said "telephone" when answering the telephone.
05:17:20 <zzo38> And the inventor of telephone said "ahoy", I think.
05:17:25 <Gregor> I always just say "Yeah, what?" gruffly.
05:17:35 <pikhq> Gregor: "Holla" was not a gre3eting.
05:17:43 <pikhq> Nor was it a greeting.
05:17:54 <pikhq> Obviously it is *now*.
05:18:28 <zzo38> The reason I can think of for saying "telephone" is so that the people in the next room know that they are speaking on the telephone.
05:18:31 <quintopia> Gregor: i like "yo" and "sup dude" for friends :P
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05:18:56 <Gregor> When people say "What's up?" to me (or variations thereof), I point up and say "That way"
05:19:08 <quintopia> i think that's usually how i answer the phone for my dad
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05:19:18 <Gregor> On the rare occasion that I actually want a proper greeting, I say "'ello"
05:19:23 <zzo38> I just say "the ceiling" or "the sky" when asked what's uyp.
05:19:30 <pikhq> zzo38: Better than the Japanese phone greeting, though.
05:19:35 <Gregor> More often I just use "hey" as a call to attention then dive right into whatever I'm trying to say.
05:19:51 <pikhq> Which is an informal greeting that developed out of an *insanely* formal and archaic greeting.
05:20:14 <zzo38> When answering the telephone I say "hello". When writing a letter I still begin with "Dear" and end with "Sincerely".
05:20:35 <Gregor> I ... I never pronounce the 'h' in "hello" ...
05:20:49 <zzo38> Most people I have seen who type messages in their computer never begin with "Dear" or end with "Sincerely".
05:21:11 <quintopia> because a computer is not a typewriter
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05:21:19 <pikhq> ("Moshi-moshi" comes from "mōshi", a grammatical form of "mōsu". Humble formal "to speak".)
05:21:19 <Gregor> zzo38: Because pleasantries are not useful?
05:21:42 <pikhq> (one would use "mōsu" when, say, talking to the Emperor.)
05:22:09 <zzo38> Also, I always enter a colon after the name after "Dear", never a comma. In my opinion a comma doesn't make sense there, so I put a colon instead.
05:22:21 <pikhq> zzo38: Pleasantries and formalities have simply fallen out of use recently.
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05:22:56 <pikhq> It's nothing to do with computers in particular; the same change is all over the place.
05:23:08 <pikhq> (how often do you say "sir" or "ma'am", pray tell?)
05:23:09 <quintopia> Dear zzo38: Imagine having to waste 30 characters of every tweet on a salutation and signature. Sincerely, quintopia #enoughroomforahashtag?
05:23:32 <quintopia> (that message was actually 140 chars!)
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05:23:57 <zzo38> I don't use Twitter, but Twitter is not a letter anyways. However, it is still probably the limit is too short.
05:25:30 <Gregor> What is the "correct" spelling of "couldn't've"?
05:26:00 <zzo38> I sometimes write letters by computer, and sometimes by hand. I use the same conventions either way, including the date at the top. In fact, I have typed such a letter recently (using TeX and a laser printer) and mailed it (actually, given it to someone who was going there to deliver it; so I needed no stamps).
05:26:02 <pikhq> Gregor: I don't see why that wouldn't be correct.
05:26:17 <Gregor> pikhq: Two apostrophes? Blech!
05:26:33 <zzo38> And I signed my name by pen in Japanese after it was printed out.
05:26:33 <pikhq> Either that or "Couldn't h've". :P
05:26:39 <Gregor> quintopia: Two apostrophes? Blech!
05:26:39 <quintopia> apostrophes everywhere you omit letters
05:26:56 <quintopia> if you don't want to use apostrophes, don't abbreviate
05:27:11 <pikhq> zzo38: でも日本では判子を使う。……
05:27:15 <Gregor> quintopia: What if you're spelling something somebody else said smartypants.
05:27:44 <pikhq> Gregor: Invoke the spirit of Mark Twain before you write; it'll make things easier.
05:28:05 <quintopia> Gregor: un abbreviate their words. it's common to do so
05:28:09 <Gregor> pikhq: How do I do that? Do I need to sacrifice another goat?
05:28:23 <zzo38> pikhq: I did wrote the name in Japanese only, but that just means "Japanese" it doesn't mean what I wrote. I typed the letter in English.
05:28:47 <Sgeo_> I think zzo38's name is Mel Kaye
05:28:49 <pikhq> quintopia: I do not think that it is very common to do so. It makes people sound somewhat like Spock.
05:28:57 <pikhq> zzo38: Still should have used a hanko.
05:29:16 <zzo38> (I do commonly sign my name using Japanese even in many things that are English.)
05:29:18 <quintopia> pikhq: it is common in journalism to reduce abbreviations down to the "most common" ones
05:29:50 <zzo38> On cheques I sign it using both English and Japanese. But I rarely use cheques; I prefer to do all payments in cash as much as possible.
05:29:50 <pikhq> quintopia: It is also common in journalism to blatantly lie. Your point?
05:30:09 <Sgeo_> zzo38, are you Mel Kaye?
05:30:14 <pikhq> zzo38: Hardly anyone uses checks these days.
05:30:20 <quintopia> pikhq: lying is not considered a journalistic standard. un-abbreviation for clarity is.
05:30:55 <pikhq> quintopia: It's the most common act of many "news" reporting entities, however.
05:31:33 <zzo38> pikhq: Most people use credit cards though, I think. I have received credit card applications and I just discard them. I almost always pay in cash and accept payments in cash. I sometimes (but rarely) use a cheque.
05:31:49 <pikhq> zzo38: I use cash & debit, personally.
05:31:56 <quintopia> zzo38: debit cards are the WAY OF THE FUTURE
05:32:15 <pikhq> Credit cards are pretty solidly stupid.
05:32:30 <pikhq> Okay, well, not *inherently* stupid, just stupid the way most people use them.
05:32:45 <zzo38> I don't use debit cards either.
05:33:05 <pikhq> Probably anonymity.
05:33:15 <zzo38> Because I prefer to pay in cash.
05:33:35 <quintopia> i need to get some liquid currency
05:33:38 <zzo38> I don't want them to stop accepting cash.
05:33:49 <quintopia> something that can survive bank crashage
05:34:17 <zzo38> How many places will accept payment by gold coins and silver coins?
05:34:38 <quintopia> modern businesses? only pawn shops...
05:34:50 <zzo38> If you have some gold, and you make it round, will they accept it?
05:34:52 <quintopia> and when the economy has collapsed
05:35:00 <quintopia> they will accept them long before they accept cash
05:35:21 <quintopia> zzo38: they'll accept it even not-round as long as its sufficiently pure
05:35:22 <pikhq> quintopia: Well, if you get the right coins modern businesses will be *obligated* to accept them for debts.
05:35:34 <pikhq> Not that you'd want to actually use them that way, but hey.
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05:35:39 <quintopia> pikhq: yes. that's the kind i plan on getting
05:35:56 <pikhq> (unless you like throwing a thousand dollars away)
05:36:04 <quintopia> U.S. mints have good quality guarantees on silver coinage
05:36:20 <quintopia> i can be sure the worth of the coin
05:36:33 <pikhq> Yeah, I'd imagine the US mint produces good coins. And certainly nice designs.
05:36:42 <pikhq> So worth it in *that* respect.
05:36:51 <pikhq> Just not worth it if you intend to use them as legal tender.
05:37:11 <pikhq> Unless you're rich and have a sense of humor.
05:37:16 <quintopia> i want them to use when "legal tender" becomes a nonsense term
05:37:47 <pikhq> Quite honestly, I doubt that gold and silver are going to be your preferred choices there.
05:37:58 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, when such a things as that happens, it might be useful to make silver coins and gold coins.
05:38:10 <pikhq> Unless you intend to have it as a store of wealth for an interregnum of sorts, that is.
05:38:24 <quintopia> pikhq: gold and silver retain value. it's weird, but it happens.
05:38:24 <zzo38> Because then they will stop accepting banknotes and government coins.
05:38:34 <pikhq> Otherwise, I'd suggest investing in somewhat more immediately useful commodities, such as toilet paper or canned goods.
05:38:46 <quintopia> yes, it's just until a different sort of economy appears
05:39:04 <pikhq> quintopia: If the government completely collapses, your gold and silver aren't going to be highly desired.
05:39:15 <pikhq> More immediate needs are pressing.
05:39:15 <quintopia> pikhq: more desired than printed cotton
05:39:22 <pikhq> Well, that much is true.
05:39:27 <quintopia> i expect to have the immediate concerns covered
05:39:33 <pikhq> They will at least *possess* value beyond being novelties.
05:40:15 <quintopia> (i expect if this comes to pass, looters will be quite a problem. being armed is essential.)
05:40:31 <pikhq> Still, a stock of canned goods, toilet paper, etc. would be more useful.
05:40:46 <pikhq> Immediately useful commodities work so much better for barter than hypothetically useful ones.
05:41:08 <pikhq> (presuming they're commodities most people will actually desire)
05:41:13 <quintopia> actually, MREs retain nutritional value better than canned food
05:41:33 <pikhq> Yes, but canned goods are very easy to obtain.
05:41:38 <pikhq> Currently, that is.
05:41:42 <quintopia> the idea is to not *need* to trade for most things until it's been going on a while
05:41:45 <Sgeo_> I'd like to try MREs
05:41:51 <Sgeo_> Is it possible to survive on them?
05:42:25 <pikhq> Ilari probably has choice things to say on their nutritional value, though.
05:42:26 <quintopia> also, 5 gallon buckets of wheat flour and rice and sugar are good to have around
05:42:44 <pikhq> Can't be *that* bad, though; the military doesn't exactly want soldiers in ill health.
05:43:05 <quintopia> no, they have all the nutritional value you could need for quite a while. it's the flavor that leaves you wanting :P
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05:43:30 <pikhq> quintopia: No, he's a nutrition nut among other things.
05:43:34 <Sgeo_> Is it possible for civilians to get MRE?
05:44:13 <pikhq> They're labeled "U.S. Government Property, Commercial Resale is Unlawful".
05:44:17 <pikhq> However, there is no such law.
05:44:39 <quintopia> and the gov't itself resells them :P
05:44:53 <pikhq> Also, the contractors who manufacture MREs also sell essentially the same product to consumers.
05:45:00 <pikhq> (different branding, basically)
05:45:07 <zzo38> Why do they say that if there is no such law? Is it a lie?
05:45:32 <pikhq> zzo38: There is a regulation requiring them to make that claim on the MREs.
05:45:41 <pikhq> zzo38: There is, however, no truth to the claim at all.
05:47:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Does that mean there is a law requiring them to make that lie about the laws? Is there a law that requires the military to lie about everything?
05:47:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Regulation != law.
05:50:28 <zzo38> I cannot find anything on Wikipedia about using $Q_0$ for the minimum and $Q_4$ for the maximum. (And I haven't looked anywhere else) So how do you think it might be standard?
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05:52:24 <zzo38> I am just curious....
05:54:09 <zzo38> What other notations are commonly used for minimum, median, maximum?
05:55:25 <zzo38> I mean, with mathematical notations such as letters with subscripts or accent mark and stuff like that.
05:57:43 <quintopia> Q_0 and Q_4 seem logical extensions of the quartile notation
05:58:53 <zzo38> That is also why I have chosen those ones. I do not really plan to change it.
06:20:45 <Gregor> QtWebkit's final link command is over 55K characters long.
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06:20:57 <Gregor> boysetsfrog: ... boysetsfrog ... on fire?
06:20:59 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
06:21:02 <Gregor> ... on little brother?
06:21:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Webkit makes the linker cry.
06:21:30 <Gregor> pikhq: I switched to gold just for WebKit :P
06:21:42 <Gregor> Takes over a minute to link. TO LINK.
06:21:50 <pikhq> Gregor: Imagine if you were using LTO.
06:22:09 <pikhq> ... That'd probably make a *significant* improvement on Webkit, though.
06:22:17 <pikhq> Not many of those symbols are exported.
06:24:02 <Gregor> pikhq: QtWebKit doesn't bother with export lists, every symbol is exported.
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06:24:25 <pikhq> That makes the dynamic linker really cry.
06:24:44 <pikhq> Especially on Windows.
06:25:05 <pikhq> Where the entire binary *has to be dynamically patched to account for the load address of the library*.
06:25:50 <pikhq> Actually, on second thought, it's always going to be horrible there. Never mind.
06:26:18 <pikhq> You could probably make Webkit quite a bit faster on x86 just by limiting exported symbols.
06:26:27 <pikhq> And perhaps a bit faster on x86_64...
06:26:49 <Gregor> The (non-Qt) Windows build probably does control exported symbols.
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06:26:59 <pikhq> It actually wouldn't make that big of a difference.
06:27:03 <Gregor> They only don't control it in Qt because Qt is portable, and export lists aren't.
06:27:24 <pikhq> That's horrifying.
06:27:40 <pikhq> So, *Qt* could be made much faster by doing that.
06:28:53 <Gregor> pikhq: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/JavaScriptCore/JavaScriptCore.exp
06:29:55 <Gregor> Since the code itself has no compiler-specific export control.
06:31:01 <pikhq> So, not using GCC's visibility support at all.
06:31:27 <Gregor> Of course the export list is compiler-specific anyway, but at least it's not IN THE CODE
06:31:36 <pikhq> "For example, a huge C++ template-based library which was tested (the TnFOX Boost.Python bindings library) now loads in eight seconds rather than over six minutes!"
06:31:52 <pikhq> Yes, it's that big of a deal.
06:32:04 <pikhq> Boost is frightening.
06:32:27 <Gregor> WebKit has its own template framework with a wonderful name.
06:32:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Remember that each created instance of a template creates its own set of symbols.
06:33:00 <pikhq> And that Boost uses templates as type-level lambda calculus.
06:33:17 <Gregor> Remember that ELF does lazy resolution :P
06:33:25 <Gregor> And nobody cares about shitty Windows ;)
06:34:12 <pikhq> Just like megabyte-sized symbol tables are absurd.
06:34:23 <pikhq> (megabyte as an order of magnitude, there, BTW)
06:35:25 <Gregor> $ du -h libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0 && strip libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0 && du -h libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0
06:35:25 <Gregor> 677M libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0
06:35:25 <Gregor> 55M libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0
06:35:55 <pikhq> Yeaaah, C++ is crazy.
06:36:00 <Gregor> Bloat: 55MB. Extra bloat: 622MB
06:36:23 <pikhq> ... Is that *seriously* 622MiB of fucking symbol tables?
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07:02:40 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_chilling: 4.8
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10:27:54 <sebbu2> pikhq_, it was probably 622MiB of debug symbol :p
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11:50:32 <Vorpal> hm mobile camera photos from inside a moving car end up quite bad.
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12:13:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, I decided to upload two of the images I mentioned above
12:13:30 <Vorpal> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/misc/snow1.jpg and http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/misc/snow2.jpg
12:13:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, and that horrible jpeg compression is what my mobile phone give me on highest quality setting
12:15:42 <fizzie> You with your weird 110 km/h speed limits. (Highways here are generally 100 km/h during the winter, 120 km/h during the summer.)
12:16:24 <fizzie> And yes, the quality leaves something to be desired.
12:16:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, we recently (a year or two ago) got the new speeds 40, 60, 80, 100, 120
12:16:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, haven't seen any actual 120 sign yet
12:17:16 <Vorpal> before we only had the usual 30,50,70,90,110
12:17:36 <fizzie> 80 km/h is our default non-highway "standard out-of-the-city road" speed.
12:17:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that would be 70 or 90 here. But more recently it could be 80 as well
12:18:05 <Vorpal> depends on the conditions of the road of course
12:18:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, I believe it is generally 70 on smaller ones.
12:19:15 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever seen 90/110 here; there's 70 on some of the main "city highway" style roads, and 30 in some residential areas, and 50 (along with 40) is quite common in city streets.
12:19:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, also in the second the asphalt is really red tinted. Not sure why they use that on some parts.
12:19:50 <Vorpal> 40 is quite rare here, but since it was introduced quite recently I guess that is why
12:19:53 <fizzie> All the roads in Kökar (in Åland) are made of this weird really red asphalt.
12:20:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, on that section of that highway the on-ramps (but not the off-ones) are made of it. And the outer lane
12:20:51 <Vorpal> (it is two lane with a ditch in the middle there)
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12:21:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have no idea why they selected such a strange design
12:21:18 <fizzie> http://www.napsu.fi/files/images/K/10-07-22--20-56-23--K%C3%B6k%C3%A4r.jpg
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12:21:36 <fizzie> (Image courtesy of Google image search, not mine.)
12:22:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, either the colours are off in that or it is a different type of redish asphalt
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12:22:14 <Vorpal> I'd say the one here is less muted
12:22:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, also it looks like it has larger grains than normal asphalt
12:24:06 <fizzie> Well, maybe. But the reddish color is quite noticeable. I even took a chunk of the asphalt with me home, but it doesn't really look as impressive when there's not a big pile of it. (And I have no clue where the chunk is now, anyway; this was in 1993 or so.)
12:24:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, googling suggests it is some sort of extra-durable asphalt that withstands studs better
12:24:45 <Vorpal> though so far I haven't any reputable source for this
12:27:39 <fizzie> "Red Asphalt is a series of instructional driver's education videos produced by the California Highway Patrol. The films are known for their graphic depictions of fatal car accidents. Horrendously injured and dismembered bodies are shown in the documentary, typically those of negligent drivers." Nnnoooo, that's not quite it.
12:30:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, further googling suggests the Swedish red roads contains a sort of stone called "porphyry". While those on Åland contains something called "rapakivi granite"
12:30:28 <Vorpal> still no sort of official sources for it
12:31:21 <fizzie> "Rapakivi is the material used in Åland's Middle Age stone churches." Well, presumably they then have a lot of it, and would use it for roads too.
12:31:48 <fizzie> Funny how they've taken the Finnish word into the name like that.
12:32:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, what Finnish word?
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12:45:32 <fizzie> "rapakivi" == "crumbly rock".
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12:46:22 <fizzie> Or "mudstone", or something like that. ("Crumbly rock" is what the Wikipedia "rapakivi" article says.)
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14:07:43 <fizzie> Today's random plot: http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19.png -- it's the average magnitude of the values left on the tape, averaged over all matches/configurations, from the viewpoint of the 7 best-performing programs.
14:10:21 <olsner> hmm, curious what "furry furry strapon pegging girls" means
14:10:32 <olsner> sounds like something that needs downloading of
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14:55:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about a 3D plot showing how it varies with tape length as well?
14:58:23 <nddrylliog> olsner: amen brother. leather discipline as well
15:01:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe. Here's a pcolor plot of all 41 competitors: http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19b.png
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15:02:39 <fizzie> (X axis "100" is opponent's flag, forgot to set labels there.)
15:06:58 <fizzie> That's just the MATLAB/scipy term for it.
15:07:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how does one read that plot
15:07:10 <fizzie> Sorry, MATLAB/matplotlib.
15:07:40 <fizzie> You read it the same way as the previous plot, except the Y axis value is indicated by color.
15:08:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it says nothing about tape length?
15:08:44 <fizzie> Yes, it's again the same average-over-all.
15:09:08 <fizzie> Same plot as before, except with all programs on it, basically.
15:09:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what about negative values? How do you show a value that is between 0 and -127 at best
15:09:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, surely the signed magnitude is more interesting here.
15:09:53 <fizzie> The numbers are absolute differences from zero.
15:10:09 <fizzie> And no, I don't think it is: averaged over positive/negative polarities, it's probably going to be rather zeroish.
15:10:16 <fizzie> Maybe not quite, but still.
15:10:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, signed magnitude as opposed to unsigned magnitude
15:11:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, think abs() on a char vs. casting to an unsigned char
15:11:24 <fizzie> It is abs() on a char, yes.
15:12:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you do that author-variance/similarity thing I suggested btw?
15:14:23 <fizzie> No, it's still on the list. There's a bit few programs per author for that, though.
15:14:51 <fizzie> At least on the hill at one time.
15:14:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about looking back over historical programs that are no longer on the hill as well?
15:15:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, he keeps the whole thing in hg after all
15:15:18 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
15:19:45 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19c.png -- there's the same thing for FFSPG shown as a function of tape length.
15:20:22 <fizzie> Based on that, FFSPG doesn't seem to be doing so well for the shortest tapes.
15:21:03 <fizzie> Perhaps I should do full dpoints-style score tables for each tape length separately, or in some other way show the per-tape-length scores.
15:22:02 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19c2.png if you want to compare to allegro.
15:25:07 <fizzie> (Incidentally, those plots stretch all tapes to 100 cells with linear interpolation for the averaging, which is probably why they have nice slides instead of sudden jumps.)
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15:34:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, but yes doing it so they have jumps rather than semi-continuous gradients would be better
15:35:29 <fizzie> The averaged-over-all-lengths plots are going to have (noisy) gradients anyway because the tape borders hit other locations.
15:35:47 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19cn.png has the per-tape-length graph with 'nearest'-style interpolation instead of 'linear', though.
15:35:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, well right, I meant for the per-tape-length ones
15:36:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, you said you used matlab for these? Not octave?
15:36:46 <fizzie> No, Python + numpy + scipy + matplotlib.
15:36:59 <fizzie> The latter just is very MATLAB-inspired when it comes to names.
15:37:04 <Vorpal> http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19cn.png <-- is that FFSPG or allegro?
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15:40:15 <fizzie> Hee, the per-tape-length plot is nice. I'll try to get labels on it and put it somewhere.
15:42:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, something else that might be fun: average length and variance in the length (in "turns" or whatever) of the battles that a given plays. Possibly sorted into win/lose/tie groups
15:43:09 <fizzie> I have average lengths already somewhere per each program-pair.
15:43:19 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/cycles15.png
15:43:32 <Vorpal> wait, what is the scale here
15:43:36 <fizzie> The color-bar labels are in units of 10^x cycles; that's why it tops up at 5.
15:43:41 <fizzie> (10^5 eg. 100k cycles.)
15:44:01 <fizzie> I couldn't figure out how to do a proper logscale-in-the-color-axis plot so that it'd do the labels right. :p
15:44:14 <fizzie> You can see how definder2 makes all the matches long.
15:44:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, would still be nice to see how long the battles against itself are. Sure they will all be ties but it would help detect defenders/rushers
15:45:16 <fizzie> Perhaps I should play those games too; I currently don't.
15:45:49 <fizzie> Yes, that was confusingly put.
15:46:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, my first reaction was "wait, is my ignore list not empty?"
15:46:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I would say that quintopia's good_vibrations forces even longer battles than definder2
15:46:32 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19.png -- scores (well, points actually) as a function of tape length.
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15:47:00 <fizzie> Gregor_return_of_ehird_defend8mwahahaha manages to behave rather differently on even/odd tapes.
15:47:16 <fizzie> And FFSPG indeed is quite a loser on tape length 10.
15:48:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, defend_9_75 is ... strange
15:48:09 <fizzie> Some others, too; like myndzi_3pass which (based on how bridght that blue is) loses about everything on tape 10.
15:48:10 <Vorpal> it is only good at length 10
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15:49:13 <fizzie> I should probably at some point collect all the plots (and generate the per-program plots for everyone) into one web page, and then make some sort of a script that updates them all.
15:49:25 <fizzie> Now I think I'll need to go craft some food though.
15:49:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, "craft"... oh my
15:49:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think you need to take a break from mc :P
15:50:22 <fizzie> I probably haven't started MC in a week or so, I just remembered I used to use that verb. :p
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16:05:29 <oerjan> heh so did everyone turn completely from minecraft to bfjoust now
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16:09:37 <fizzie> oerjan: I wonder how Gregor's infrastructure would handle 1336282 bfjousters.
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16:26:39 <nddrylliog> I remember the time mc used to mean midnight commander...
16:34:28 <oerjan> fizzie: i _did_ mean everyone on this channel :)
16:34:41 <oerjan> (well who were playing mc in the first place)
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17:11:26 <fizzie> Gregor: Is it a conscious decision that FFSPG does badly on short tapes?
17:11:47 <fizzie> ais523: Latest silly plot: scores as a function of tape length: http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19.png
17:12:20 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes and no. There's nothing I can do about it for its strategy, on short tapes it's likely that they won't change any of my breadcrumbs, so I'll just futz around creating big decoys while they take my flag.
17:14:07 <ais523> Gregor: on defend9.75, I special-cased a decoy of value more than 1 at tape position 10 as indicating a short tape
17:14:11 <ais523> in order to avoid its short-tape weakness
17:14:35 <Gregor> Hm, I wonder if that would help FFSPG...
17:15:11 <ais523> I'm not sure if it helped defend9.75, it seems quite close
17:15:41 <fizzie> ais523: At least it's visible on that plot that defend9_75 does impressively well on tape 10.
17:16:49 <ais523> yep, but it's by sacrificing performance on 14 or 15 or whatever depending on the opponent, against many opponents
17:17:02 <Gregor> !bfjoust furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls http://sprunge.us/LcVY
17:17:13 <Gregor> I honestly don't think this'll do better :P
17:20:05 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls: 63.9
17:24:56 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19b.png -- didn't seem to affect average scores on other lengths very much.
17:27:51 <ais523> I think I shouldn't have released defend9.75 as early as I did, people are testing against it now
17:33:04 <fizzie> Heh, wow: I did a "pcolor" plot (just a single quad colored based on each cell of the matrix) of a 82x861 matrix, and got "numpy.linalg.linalg.LinAlgError: Singular matrix" back.
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17:36:12 <fizzie> Oh, it was just integer-arithmetics of the figure size, tried to do a 0-height image. Aw.
17:37:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, what a strange error for that :P
17:38:21 <fizzie> There was a stack trace with the words "inverted" and "transforms" and so on in it; I guess it was inverting the plot-to-image coordinate transformation for some purpose.
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18:03:44 <ais523> are 0x0 matrices singular?
18:03:56 <ais523> it's a philosophical question, really, as I can't even figure out what it would mean to invert them
18:04:05 <ais523> arguably, all 0x0 matrices are the identity
18:08:14 <fizzie> If they all are the identity, then I'd think they're all nonsingular.
18:08:32 <fizzie> Octave seems to think that det(A) = 1 for a 0x0 A:
18:08:33 <fizzie> octave:2> det(zeros(0))
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18:14:48 <oerjan> ais523: sounds a bit like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element
18:14:58 <nddrylliog> Phantom_Hoover: it's almost an anagram, too
18:15:50 <oerjan> it's a little known fact that welsh "ndrry" is pronounced like english "e"
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18:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, please tell me that's an elaborate mathematical joke.
18:16:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the field of one element? it may have started as a joke someone took too seriously?
18:17:49 <oerjan> generalizing so previously impossible objects get a representation is a mathematical tradition, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_function
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18:18:04 <oerjan> (iiuc it's very useful, too)
18:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover> APT Guy has a conditional offer to do CS at university if he gets a C in maths.
18:19:05 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
18:19:18 <elliott> We must transport it to a SAFE LOCATION.
18:19:28 <elliott> nddrylliog: Conor McBride's language^WEPIC TROLL.
18:19:46 <elliott> (OK, Epigram 1 is Conor's language, Epigram 2 is his 6-years-and-counting epic troll.)
18:19:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOW CAN THAT POSSIBLY BE SO.
18:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> My previous crazy plan to force McBride to get a move on is no longer necessary!
18:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I can just tell APT Guy to seek him out and kidnap him.
18:20:38 <elliott> 20:50:19 <Gregor> OMG, if I bought sarsaparilla extract and gentian root extract ...
18:20:38 <elliott> 20:51:37 <Gregor> Sassafras extract is too expensive, I wonder how vital it is ...
18:20:38 <elliott> 20:52:25 <Gregor> Sassafras is like $10/oz >_>
18:20:48 <elliott> i think it might be cheaper here?
18:20:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IS THAT WISE
18:21:35 <Gregor> elliott: Upon further examination, more like $9/oz
18:22:01 <elliott> Gregor: Buy it, sassafras is both DELICIOUS and EASY TO RHYME WITH.
18:22:29 <elliott> 21:14:12 <zzo38> Is $Q_0$ a standard notation for the minimum?
18:22:29 <elliott> 21:14:31 <quintopia> yeah probably
18:22:36 <Gregor> But still, sarsaparilla is like $4/oz and gentian (in spite of being far less used) is like $3/oz
18:22:39 <elliott> quintopia: like the part where you just start giving random answers
18:22:53 <elliott> Gregor: Sassafras / Kiss my ass / Blah blah blah / Sassafras
18:23:24 <elliott> 21:16:36 <quintopia> but the best word america invented was "O.K."
18:23:25 <elliott> 21:16:42 <quintopia> EVERYONE uses it now
18:24:05 <elliott> 21:19:23 <zzo38> I just say "the ceiling" or "the sky" when asked what's uyp.
18:24:05 <elliott> NOBODY HAS EVER THOUGHT OF THAT BEFORE
18:24:35 <elliott> 21:20:49 <zzo38> Most people I have seen who type messages in their computer never begin with "Dear" or end with "Sincerely".
18:24:35 <elliott> Proof of society's decline
18:25:03 <elliott> 21:25:30 <Gregor> What is the "correct" spelling of "couldn't've"?
18:25:08 <elliott> Gregor: Couldn't have, surely.
18:25:15 <elliott> But I prefer the idea of arbitrarily stacking apostrophe suffixes.
18:25:16 <nddrylliog> whether OK is of american origin is disputed
18:25:41 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's that oll korrect story isn't it?
18:26:14 <elliott> The chief strength of this etymology is its clear written record. A problem with this etymology is the implication that common usage was driven by the written appearance of a geographically and socially isolated slang term that was alien to the rest of the country. While appearing in written form often spreads and expands the usage of colloquial terms, it is rare for a single instance of written speech to make a term colloquial. The relatively sl
18:26:15 <elliott> ow take-up of the term by other English-speaking countries illustrates this pattern.
18:26:29 <elliott> nddrylliog: au quai isn't even on Wikipedia, I SEE NO WAY IT COULD BE TRUE THEREFORE.
18:26:57 <nddrylliog> it is http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(expression)
18:27:09 <nddrylliog> but right it's in the "popular etymologies"
18:27:13 <nddrylliog> apparently the dispute has been resolved
18:27:18 <nddrylliog> damn etymologists, they're poor trolls
18:27:24 <elliott> Like I'd trust the French for factual information.
18:27:46 <nddrylliog> says the country with the most creationists
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18:28:12 <nddrylliog> Gregor: btw, great taste in bfjoust contestants names
18:28:43 <elliott> 21:31:33 <zzo38> pikhq: Most people use credit cards though, I think. I have received credit card applications and I just discard them. I almost always pay in cash and accept payments in cash. I sometimes (but rarely) use a cheque.
18:28:43 * elliott wonders wtf zzo38 could possibly be accepting payment for.
18:28:55 <elliott> i wish the other logreaders were here so i didn't seem like so much of a spammer :D
18:28:59 <Gregor> nddrylliog: Why thank you :P
18:29:29 <elliott> 21:37:16 <quintopia> i want them to use when "legal tender" becomes a nonsense term
18:29:37 <elliott> Hurf durf civilisation's collapse is imminent better get a lot of gold
18:30:04 <nddrylliog> meh, what is gold good for in case of civilisation collapse?
18:30:32 <pikhq_> nddrylliog: Slightly more value than green pieces of paper.
18:30:35 <elliott> I think quintopia might be vastly underestimating the timespan between "civilisation collapses" and "you can buy things".
18:30:48 <nddrylliog> it's absolutely beyond comprehension why Grooveshark didn't see coming Chrome plugins for hiding their ads, with their fancy HTML5 frontend and whatnot
18:31:02 <nddrylliog> pikhq_: in case of real collapse, I'd be looking for a food source, not for shiny metal :)
18:31:18 <Gregor> Gold has slightly less utility than dirt, but dirt isn't usable as currency while still maintaining that utility, so gold might win out.
18:31:18 <elliott> have chrome plugins supplanted greasemonkey or something. i find that quite sad.
18:31:24 <pikhq_> nddrylliog: I did *tell* him that I'd be stocking up on canned goods if I expected civilisation to collapse.
18:31:36 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but if civilisation's just collapsed, currency is useless :P
18:31:49 <elliott> Gregor: Unless you think people's first thoughts are going to be "Ooh, I'm going to set up a SHOP."
18:31:58 <nddrylliog> pikhq_: well then we're apocalypse strategies buddies
18:32:10 <nddrylliog> elliott: well that would be a HELL of an opportunity
18:32:23 <nddrylliog> elliott: not sure what you'll be doing with all that gold, though, except if there were other shops.
18:32:37 <pikhq_> nddrylliog: In anarchy, you're quite liable to just get gunned down.
18:32:42 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: So're rocks.
18:32:50 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: And you can find those on the ground.
18:33:02 <pikhq_> nddrylliog: Not you *in particular*.
18:33:14 <nddrylliog> I know see why whiny bitches get along in life
18:33:15 <pikhq_> Anyone with a shop would.
18:33:22 <nddrylliog> pikhq_: yes, yes, I was messing around :)
18:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, just because there's a much more common but slightly-worse substitute doesn't mean it's useless.
18:34:17 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Does mean that it's not worth thousands of dollars to obtain, though.
18:34:35 <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
18:35:14 <elliott> `addquote <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
18:35:30 <nddrylliog> oh joy \o/ another quote. I can go back to work now
18:35:58 <HackEgo> 315) <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
18:36:16 <elliott> ARE YOU SUGGESTING HE IS BROKEN?
18:36:19 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, what?
18:36:42 <elliott> nddrylliog: well unless the script also plays bf joust.
18:36:49 <elliott> i suppose femaleness is not out of the question.
18:37:00 <elliott> 21:39:42 <quintopia> food, guns, ammo, fuel
18:37:00 <elliott> 21:40:15 <quintopia> (i expect if this comes to pass, looters will be quite a problem. being armed is essential.)
18:37:00 <elliott> :LIBERTARIAN NUTJOB FANTASY:
18:37:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I HAVE INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT SHE GOES BACK IN TIME AND BECOMES A BBC WAR CORRESPONDENT.
18:37:04 <Sgeo_> Yay! Someone else got confused for a bot!
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18:41:13 <elliott> i thought it thought "haw" was a face
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18:42:56 <Sgeo_> I'm Henry the Eight I am, Henry the Eighth I am I am
18:43:11 <Sgeo_> What, no one wants to hear me sing?
18:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, your apathy to the fact that your girlfriend is going to go back in time, de-age and then become a war correspondent. Also, CHRIST NO
18:44:02 <Sgeo_> {{OOC: I don't know a funny response. My only responds kills the joke}}
18:44:22 <Sgeo_> {{OOC: And yes, I did just use OOC to avoid breaking the context of a joke. Sue me}}
18:45:26 <elliott> Sgeo_ is clearly obsessed with it
18:45:47 <elliott> i'm sorry i'll never do that to you again
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18:51:28 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: You can also eat it.
18:51:34 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
18:51:43 <pikhq> No nutritional value *at all*, but gold is edible.
18:52:26 <elliott> I would totally eat a whole gold bar.
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18:52:56 <pikhq> elliott: Too hard to bite.
18:53:07 <pikhq> Gold bar's worth of gold leaf, on the other hand?
18:53:08 <elliott> OK, warm it up a bit so it's softer and slice it up.
18:53:12 <pikhq> elliott: Relatively speaking.
18:53:38 <elliott> What does it taste like :P
18:53:39 <pikhq> No point at all, aside from being a show of absurd wealth.
18:53:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ALTERNATELY: get a really big hammer and hit it with that.
18:54:23 <pikhq> Could get some Goldschlager and try.
18:54:32 <pikhq> Sorry, Goldschläger.
18:54:50 <elliott> 07:48:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, defend_9_75 is ... strange
18:54:50 <elliott> 07:48:10 <Vorpal> it is only good at length 10
18:55:16 <Sgeo_> Well, it's safer than eating silver, surely
18:55:34 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Silver is also entirely safe to consume.
18:55:47 <Sgeo_> Hmm? I thought it turned skin blue
18:56:17 <pikhq> That's "colloidal silver".
18:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Which works by literally ending up accumulating in your body.
18:56:54 <pikhq> Which contains a variety of different silver compounds in solution...
18:57:06 <pikhq> Just consuming a chunk of silver does fuck-all.
18:58:00 <pikhq> Oh, apparently chronic consumption of chunks of silver could also cause that.
18:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Silver foil might work if you ate tonnes of it, because some would end up in your blood stream.
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18:58:32 <pikhq> But not going to be a big deal unless you're consuming colloidal silver.
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18:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> According to WP, it's not a solution of silver compounds, it's a suspension of silver particles.
18:59:58 <pikhq> Anyways, the effect of argyria is caused by accumulation of silver.
19:00:40 <pikhq> You're not going to accumulate much by chomping down on silver foil.
19:00:49 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argyria1.jpg lol
19:01:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argyria_2.jpg
19:01:36 <pikhq> elliott: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2297471.stm
19:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah. Argyria isn't the biggest thing wrong with that guy.
19:02:03 <elliott> He began taking colloidal silver in 1999 amid fears that disruptions caused by the millennium bug might lead to a shortage of antibiotics.
19:02:22 <pikhq> Montana has a higher amount of crazy than average.
19:02:45 <elliott> He made the solution by electrically charging two silver wires in a glass of water.
19:02:50 <elliott> "People ask me if it's permanent and if I'm dead," he told the Associated Press news agency. "I tell them I'm practising for Halloween."
19:03:18 <Sgeo_> I hope KT-AT doesn't get the idea that colloidal silver is a good idea
19:04:49 <elliott> Like we ever talk about esolangs in here
19:04:50 * iconmaster is going on a seqway from colloidal silver.
19:04:54 <elliott> What do you think this is, #esoteric?
19:05:41 <Sgeo_> So, I'll just boot up my Windows XP VM, and run some .NET game...
19:06:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, incidentally, I stumbled upon your AW esolang idea while logreading.
19:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Contrary to my expectations, it was actually quite interesting.
19:06:50 <iconmaster> The outer virtual machine has different bytecodes from the inner one. The outer machine's instructions can effect how the inner one's are executed. To do any meaninful takes, the two VMs have to work together.
19:06:54 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, which?
19:08:07 <iconmaster> Or it could be a n-layerd VM, where the outer one affects how each inner one is executed....
19:08:25 <Sgeo_> That's less disambiguating than I think, but I think you're talking about the language based on that, not the computer built on that
19:09:05 <elliott> ag.connect_group(ord('q'), gtk.gdk.CONTROL_MASK, 0, gtk.main_quit)
19:09:05 <elliott> self.window.add_accelerator('destroy', ag, ord('q'), gtk.gdk.CONTROL_MASK, 0)
19:09:08 <elliott> I DO NOT LIKE THE INCONSISTENCY HERE
19:09:22 * Sgeo_ doesn't guess GTK+
19:09:50 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, incidentally, I stumbled upon your AW esolang idea while logreading.
19:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I was implored by yet another relative not to go into CS.
19:10:04 <Sgeo_> elliott, the one that's an esoang
19:11:16 <elliott> PHANTOM HOVERBOARD, RESPOND
19:11:34 <Sgeo_> elliott, he's a dead president, what do you expect?
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19:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, erm, IIRC it's along the lines of "each object has a (non-unique) name and a timer; when the timer goes off they can set their own name to something else and change the timers of objects with a particular name."
19:11:46 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I was implored by yet another relative not to go into CS.
19:11:48 <elliott> <elliott> For what reason?
19:11:48 <elliott> <elliott> PHANTOM HOVERBOARD, RESPOND
19:12:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, he said that when he was running his company the programmers who did CS were the ones who couldn't actually program.
19:12:55 <Sgeo_> I just had to Wikipedia that Mr. Hoover actually died.
19:13:26 <elliott> False assumption (aiming towards career in codemonkeying) -- check!
19:13:45 <elliott> Ridiculous anecdote that probably has no foundation in truth at all -- check!
19:15:42 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Did his company hire degree mill "graduates"?
19:15:58 <pikhq> Say, University of Phoenix or some such.
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19:16:43 <pikhq> "Quite a while ago" like... Decades?
19:17:41 <pikhq> Hmm. 10 years ago would've been around the time of the dot-com bust.
19:17:53 <pikhq> When you had a good few morons going into CS under the premise that it'd earn them money.
19:18:39 <Sgeo_> I think that girl on the bus might be one such moron
19:18:56 <Sgeo_> Then again, maybe I was just so bored by our conversation
19:18:56 <pikhq> Ah, so at *this* point there wouldn't even be that many programmers out there, CS degree or not.
19:19:04 <Sgeo_> So... fucking... boring
19:19:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, ah, but that's because you don't know ALL PROGRAMS
19:20:12 <elliott> HOW DO YOU GO TO THE START OF THE LINE IN A GTKTEXTVIEW HOW HOW HOW
19:20:19 <Sgeo_> Funny thing, before that conversation, I was wondering if I'd rather date her than KT-AT
19:20:36 <Sgeo_> Now, for the first time in my life, I'm capable of envisioning a "bad date"
19:21:16 <elliott> Sgeo are you actually still wanting to date kt-at.
19:21:20 <pikhq> Oh delicious coffee, how very delicious you are.
19:21:24 <elliott> Sorry, let me rephrase that question.
19:21:33 <elliott> Sgeo, did you drop your brain in a river and then crush it with sticks.
19:22:27 <pikhq> Who is this KT-AT, and what is there to suggest that he/she/it is or is not a good idea to date?
19:22:36 <elliott> pikhq: She thinks that Vitamin C cures cancer.
19:22:38 <oerjan> <elliott> i wish the other logreaders were here so i didn't seem like so much of a spammer :D <-- i didn't bother to logread more than searching for my nick today. as a general rule, the longer the logs the less likely i browse all of them.
19:22:48 <pikhq> elliott: AAAAGH NO NO NO NO NO NO.
19:22:50 <elliott> pikhq: She herself is a cancer survivor who survived with the power of things like "chemotherapy" and "modern scientific medicine".
19:23:14 <pikhq> Sgeo_: I'd sooner get a penectomy than date her.
19:23:27 <elliott> Sgeo has yet to flick the "on" switch attached to his brain and still wants to date her for reasons unexplainable by modern science.
19:23:36 <pikhq> elliott: Boner. Definitely boner.
19:23:48 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Don't stick your dick in crazy.
19:23:54 <elliott> [insert Joker's-boner picture here]
19:23:59 <elliott> http://www.redshirt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/batman6.jpg
19:24:17 <Sgeo_> I think she might be more gullible than crazy
19:24:41 <pikhq> Sgeo_: She has still shown a rather severe lack of reasoning ability.
19:25:25 <elliott> It takes more than gullibility to believe that cancer treatment is all a scam by Big Pharma because -- Vitamin C does the job just fine!
19:25:26 <pikhq> Though I guess it could be *worse*.
19:25:34 <elliott> It requires gullibility, and at least one of insanity, or idiocy.
19:25:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: At least they're not actively harmful.
19:26:05 <elliott> Nobody died by creating a false perpetual motion machine.
19:26:11 <Phantom_Hoover> "THE POWER COMPANIES PREFER USING OIL TO MAKING A PROFIT"
19:26:17 <elliott> If a cancer patient decided that they're just gonna drink a bunch of orange juice...
19:26:17 <pikhq> At least it's entirely plausible vitamin C has *some* effect on cancer.
19:26:21 <elliott> They would die. Of cancer.
19:26:35 <elliott> Because of some gullible/idiot/moron/crazies.
19:26:43 <pikhq> (most likely in the form of prevention than anything else.)
19:26:53 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, don't encourage him.
19:27:01 <elliott> "WELL MAYBE KT-AT IS JUST A VISIONARY"
19:27:21 <oerjan> <elliott> `addquote <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, [...] <-- YOU BEAT ME THERE
19:27:27 <Sgeo_> Do you really think that's something I'd say?
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19:27:49 <pikhq_> Just not as bad as, say, believers in faith healing.
19:28:34 <pikhq_> Hmm. Y'know, I bet a tunnel over UDP wouldn't show this "drop connection LAWL" BS.
19:28:50 <pikhq_> (I'm *pretty* sure at least part of the issue is that the NAT is dropping state)
19:29:43 <pikhq_> Shame that SCTP adoption isn't likely.
19:30:11 <pikhq_> Though SCTP-over-UDP adoption is entirely possible, simply requiring someone to choose to do so when writing some new service.
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19:31:52 <oerjan> <pikhq> No point at all, aside from being a show of absurd wealth. <-- yeah i read some people actually do it...
19:31:54 <elliott> pikhq_: Wait, it can't be boner, unless Sgeo is just really irrational: <Sgeo> I have some reason to believe KT-AT may be abstinence-only, but I'm not certain
19:31:58 <elliott> ONLY SCIENCE CAN SOLVE THIS MYSTERY.
19:32:38 <pikhq_> oerjan: Actually, small quantities of gold or silver for food decoration aren't that absurd.
19:32:56 <elliott> MY CONNECTION KEEPS DROPPING
19:32:57 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, religious, but not nutcase, as far as I can tell
19:33:01 <pikhq_> oerjan: Mostly because in the quantities needed for *decoration*, you're talking maybe $10.
19:33:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Uh, we've already established that she's a nutcase.
19:33:18 <pikhq_> Sure, not going to be common even then, but it's not exactly a show of ostentatious wealth there.
19:33:26 <ais523> technically, gold would be poisonous if it got into the body somehow
19:33:33 <ais523> but it's "safe" to eat because humans are incapable of digesting it
19:33:36 <Sgeo_> ais523, wait what?
19:33:37 <elliott> So an abstinence-only religious nutcase who thinks Vitamin C cures cancer... have fun with that, Sgeo_.
19:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, but "religious nutcase" != religious /\ nutcase
19:33:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but "but not nutcase, as far as I can tell"
19:34:01 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: If it somehow got into the blood it could plausibly cause issues?
19:34:13 <pikhq_> ais523: It's... Kinda inert.
19:34:15 <Sgeo_> As in, not "religious nutcase" as far as I can tell
19:34:28 <ais523> but if you somehow get it to react, the salts are dangerous
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19:34:36 <ais523> on the other hand, the only things gold dissolves in would kill you much more quickly
19:34:38 <pikhq_> Oh, yes, the salts can be quite dangerous.
19:35:12 -!- elliott has joined.
19:35:24 <elliott> it's happening to me too :D
19:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, presumably due to the only things that will react with gold being able to react with *everything*.
19:35:43 <pikhq_> Certain gold salts are used to treat arthritis, after all...
19:35:49 <Sgeo_> What can react with helium?
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19:36:41 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Good guess though.
19:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> There are some which could theoretically be stable at very low temperatures.
19:37:01 <pikhq_> Fluorine is definitely the most *likely* to react with any noble gas.
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19:37:07 <ais523> I don't think anyone's managed to react anything with helium yet
19:37:23 <ais523> noble gases seem to most easily react with fluorine in first and oxygen in second
19:37:32 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> elliott, he's a dead president, what do you expect? <-- wait how did i never get that reference before... Phantom_Hoover, is that the actual source?
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19:37:50 <elliott> What's KT-AT's opinion on fluoride in water
19:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Absolutely nothing with neon, even in theory; HArF, KrF_2 and a tonne of xenon compounds.
19:37:53 <pikhq_> The two most reactive elements, after all.
19:37:59 <Sgeo_> "Helium can form unstable compounds, known as excimers"
19:38:19 <ais523> fluoride is a lot safer than fluorine, as it's reacted already
19:38:46 <oerjan> huh wait the famous hoover was _not_ the president...
19:39:05 <pikhq_> Noble gas in the middle of the buckyball.
19:39:21 <pikhq_> He@C60. This is a real compound.
19:39:39 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Thus the unusual notation.
19:39:51 <elliott> oerjan: yeah Phantom_Hoover is clearly named after the one who made vacuums.
19:40:31 <pikhq_> Certainly, the C60 has not reacted with the He in any way.
19:40:40 <pikhq_> It just happened to form around it.
19:40:59 <pikhq_> I find chemistry quite fascinating when it's not mandatory.
19:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well. The problem is that there are blindingly obvious exceptions to any abstractions at all.
19:41:55 <pikhq_> Okay, true, that is a problem.
19:42:14 <pikhq_> Which is why I hate formal study of it. :P
19:42:37 <pikhq_> Physics is quite a bit nicer in that respect.
19:42:54 <pikhq_> Your exceptions come when things get *really* small, *really* big, or *really* fast.
19:43:01 <elliott> WHY IS GTKSOURCEVIEW SO DAMN COMPLICATED
19:43:08 <oerjan> <pikhq> Oh delicious coffee, how very delicious you are. <-- but _i_ am drinking yummy, yummy, ice coffee latte
19:43:09 <elliott> Maybe using Scintilla would be easier.
19:43:30 <pikhq_> And even then, you just start having a different set of relevant abstractions.
19:44:09 <fizzie> But if you ask a physicist about a molecule more complicated than hydrogen, he'll just shrug and approximate all over the place.
19:44:37 <pikhq_> fizzie: Because that's chemistry. :P
19:44:46 <pikhq_> And fundamentally uninteresting to most of them.
19:44:55 <pikhq_> (exception, nuclear physicists.)
19:44:57 <oerjan> <elliott> pikhq: She thinks that Vitamin C cures cancer. <-- THAT'S JUST AN INDICATION THAT SHE'S A GENIUS, LIKE LINUS PAULING
19:45:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I won't mock you for that because it'll probably turn out to be a language thing and then I'll look like an idiot.
19:45:04 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's just a special case of a molecule. :p
19:45:22 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: He could actually be referring to molecular hydrogen, anyways.
19:45:33 <fizzie> Certainly they'll be even more confused when multiple atoms are involved.
19:45:35 <elliott> oerjan: and if she believes in synchronicity, she'll be even more of a genius, like Ørjan Johansen!
19:45:44 * elliott was kicked by oerjan (RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE)
19:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there is that particle physics meaning of "molecule".
19:46:10 <pikhq_> Does hydrogen even form compounds with itself?
19:46:29 <pikhq_> Oh, dur, of course it does.
19:46:30 <fizzie> 2. atom, molecule, particle, corpuscle, mote, speck -- ((nontechnical usage) a tiny piece of anything)
19:47:58 <elliott> argh where are the scintilla wrappers...
19:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> THINGS THAT NOÖNE WITHOUT A DEGREE IN PHYSICS UNDERSTANDS: the weak nuclear force.
19:49:35 <oerjan> <elliott> Nobody died by creating a false perpetual motion machine. <-- i _do_ recall reading this story of such a machine that exploded during demonstration because the narrator refused to let the scamster plug in (or was it de-plug) the cord that "supposedly" only fed the measuring device. i think it killed an innocent bystander, too, but not the creator himself.
19:50:01 <elliott> oerjan: It exploded because it... got no power?
19:50:16 <elliott> De-plug would make more sense... but the narrator would /want/ to see it deplugged to see it in action.
19:50:22 <elliott> YOUR MEMORY I THINK IS INACCURATE
19:50:32 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god, I just realised I have 6 TV Tropes tabs open. <-- AMATEUR
19:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I thought I was relatively immune to that kind of thing./
19:50:59 <oerjan> (admittedly i haven't succumbed that hard to tvtropes in quite a while)
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19:51:38 <elliott> sourceforge redesigned again
19:52:01 <fizzie> I just recall our introductionary quantum mechanics course barely managed to cover the wavefunction for a hydrogen atom (and even that had to invoke functions named after people -- Laguerre polynomials -- always a bad sign -- cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_atom#Wavefunction ) analytically, and they were all "beyond this we'll just crunch numbers".
19:52:44 <Sgeo_> I do like the fact that she hugs me, and kisses me near my cheek
19:52:58 <Sgeo_> And I've kissed her on the cheek on occasion
19:53:20 <Sgeo_> I don't think her lips ever actually touched me
19:53:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I actually do.
19:54:00 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> oerjan: <3 <-- what was that about?
19:54:25 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
19:54:25 <nddrylliog> oerjan: <oerjan> <elliott> `addquote <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, [...] <-- YOU BEAT ME THERE
19:55:10 <Vorpal> err wait what? *looks for context*
19:55:34 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
19:56:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> 07:48:10 <Vorpal> it is only good at length 10 <-- well that was what fizzie's graph indicated. It lost more than it won for the other ones.
19:56:23 <HackEgo> 316) <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
19:56:40 <elliott> Vorpal: you realise that red = loss
19:56:49 <elliott> it does /badly/ at length 10, and well on every other length
19:57:10 <Vorpal> elliott, fizzie reversed colours relative bfjsout iirc.
19:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott, or how do you explain how the king of the hill has so much red in http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19.png ?
19:58:33 <Vorpal> elliott, please read the scale :P
19:58:53 <elliott> I'm pretty sure that's just for that plot.
19:58:55 <Vorpal> elliott, fully blue = -40 points
19:59:08 <elliott> Hmm, has 9.75 fallen that much?
19:59:09 <Vorpal> elliott, that was the plot we were discussing though
19:59:23 <elliott> No, it hasn't, it's at position 11.
19:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, so your claim about red = loss is wrong in the context you complained
19:59:26 <elliott> 11 22 40.25 9.87 ais523_defend9_75.bfjoust
19:59:54 <Vorpal> elliott, he uses an extended hill iirc?
20:00:02 <Vorpal> elliott, also FFSPG is the leader of the scoreboard and is mostly red in that plot
20:00:44 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Only for tvtropes.
20:00:46 <Vorpal> elliott, In any case according to that plot, 9.75 was/is good at length 10 and worse at longer lengths.
20:01:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I managed the art of using a graphical browser and not following links on tvtropes
20:01:41 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Does hydrogen even form compounds with itself? <-- do any elements other than the noble gases _not_?
20:01:51 <Vorpal> I only follow links on there if it is required to understand the major points of the article. And I use laconic when it exists.
20:01:57 <fizzie> And my plot colors are "red = positive, blue = negative", yes.
20:02:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's easier to ignore when it's not in the "main" browser.
20:02:09 <Vorpal> elliott, see. You were wrong :P
20:02:18 <pikhq_> oerjan: Perhaps some of the ones that are too unstable to last more than a few microseconds.
20:02:26 -!- nddrylliog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:02:29 <pikhq_> Though this is more a practical concern.
20:04:23 <oerjan> <elliott> YOUR MEMORY I THINK IS INACCURATE <-- found it, in fact the narrator was feynman: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle2.html
20:06:21 <fizzie> Also my results can differ from egojoust because my hill has a bit fewer participants, and also because crank may have bugs. In fact, come to think of it, I probably don't parse the "*-1" thing.
20:07:28 <elliott> oerjan: I like how casually he treats the fatalities in that :P
20:07:41 <elliott> fizzie: -1 = 10,000 for egojoust compliance.
20:08:51 <elliott> You might want a working implementation before you start making charts.
20:09:00 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, smear your face with vitamin C. <-- XD
20:09:05 <fizzie> "grep '\*-1' *.bfjoust" says in my current hill/ only quintopia_chilling uses it.
20:09:19 <elliott> oerjan: It reduces wrinkles or something!
20:10:04 <fizzie> Anyway, the *-1 seems quite an undocumented thing, it's nowhere to be found in http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust unless I'm skipping something.
20:10:12 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, it's a "bug".
20:10:15 <elliott> But we all use it, so now it's OFFICIAL.
20:10:43 <elliott> fizzie: Make it *100000 for sanity, as opposed to the egojoust *10000.
20:10:46 <elliott> Shouldn't really affect any results.
20:14:27 <oerjan> yeah the logical thing is for negative numbers to count as infinity, if anything
20:14:45 <oerjan> which of course is equivalent to the maximum running time
20:15:15 <oerjan> well unless you did that "reverse polarity" thing someone suggested
20:15:38 <oerjan> but that would not be even approximately backwards-compatible
20:16:34 <elliott> yeah it is infinity practically, since most matches don't last longer than 10,000 + a bit :P
20:16:43 <elliott> so the logical 100,000 is now being adopted
20:16:46 <oerjan> elliott: (...)*-n would work like (...)*n, except reversing the polarity of everything inside
20:17:22 <elliott> oerjan: also inverting > and <
20:17:54 <oerjan> elliott: that seems less useful
20:18:07 <oerjan> that would mean pretending you're your opponent
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20:18:26 <oerjan> i guess there could be times when that was appropriate
20:18:35 -!- elliott has joined.
20:18:38 <elliott> oerjan: going forwards minus one times is going backwards once, duh
20:18:42 <oerjan> 21:45 oerjan> elliott: that seems less useful
20:18:42 <oerjan> 21:45 oerjan> that would mean pretending you're your opponent
20:18:42 <oerjan> 21:45 = elliott [~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:18:46 <oerjan> 21:46 oerjan> i guess there could be times when that was appropriate
20:18:52 <elliott> FUCKING CONNECTION FUCKNG CONNECTIONG OJSIF
20:18:56 <elliott> oerjan: it's about purity not usefulness
20:19:57 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:20:36 -!- elliott has joined.
20:20:42 <elliott> WHY IS THIS CONNECTION SO FUCKING UNSTABLE
20:20:55 <oerjan> are there any important warriors that simply optimizing for assuming the tape is longer than 10 and don't even try to _survive_ it?
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20:21:12 <elliott> oerjan: there used to be, but as we KEEP TELLING EVERYONE WHO ASKS, that no longer pays off
20:21:26 <oerjan> ...i didn't notice anyone asking :)
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20:22:29 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> http://imgur.com/a/22daV <Phantom_Hoover> NEVER DID I THINK I WOULD LUST FOR A SINK <-- as far as sinks go, many seem rather impractical
20:22:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, especially if kitchen sinks
20:22:51 <oerjan> lusting for sinks seems even more impractical
20:24:04 <Gregor> elliott: From the syrup, I'm AFRAID of anise soda X-D
20:24:34 <Gregor> There's a teaspoon of anise extract per three liters of water.
20:24:35 <fizzie> Gregor: Anise soda == non-alcoholic ouzo?
20:24:47 <Vorpal> http://i.imgur.com/eGQyA.jpg <-- is that a real aquarium inside or just a fake one with plastic fish?
20:24:49 <Gregor> fizzie: Presumably fizzier (HI FIZZIE) too.
20:25:04 <Gregor> I should've gotten green food coloring and called it soda absynthe :P
20:26:09 <oerjan> heh are those _actual_ fish in that aquarium one - i wonder how they like when you fill the sink with hot water...
20:26:16 <fizzie> There was a faucet like the one in the picture that has the text "waterfall" in it somewhere.
20:26:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm I see no water surface inside. Must be fake. Can't see any way it would get enough oxygen into the water
20:26:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that too
20:26:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately, it's a concept sink and the fish aren't permanent.
20:26:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also it would be too stressful for the fish to live like that
20:26:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately, it's a concept sink and the fish aren't permanent.
20:27:12 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Alternately, ROBOT FISH.
20:27:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah good, then I don't have to say "stop being elliott" :P
20:28:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated
20:28:22 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what I'm talking about
20:28:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you do that a lot
20:30:06 <Gregor> ALSO: Anise extract is clear, but turns cloudy when you put it in near-boiling water. Isn't that mildly interesting :P
20:30:08 <oerjan> Vorpal: THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE AT THAT POINT
20:30:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh. No it wouldn't. I would presume he is able to figure out what I meant.
20:31:14 <oerjan> Vorpal: YOU HAVE NO SENSE OF SYMMETRY
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20:32:26 <oerjan> otoh that was an entirely "appropriate" response from you as well :)
20:32:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, wrt symmetry: actually I do. Ask the guy on a minecraft server when I pointed out that a door was was misaligned by 1 along a very long wall. Once I pointed it out he couldn't stop getting annoyed at the lack of symmetry as well and ended up rebuilding half of a rather large castle.
20:32:54 <oerjan> EVERYONE BEHAVE IN THEIR STEREOTYPICAL MANNER, STAT!
20:33:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh yes I *am* aware of that taking such a statement seriously and interpreting it this way is very stereotypical of me :P
20:33:29 <Gregor> HEY GUYS I'M SAYING "HEY GUYS" AND TALKING ABOUT SOME PROGRAMMING SHIT I WROTE THAT NOBODY CARES ABOUT THEN OVERUSING :P :P :P :P
20:34:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, what happens if you try websplat on a non-html page?
20:34:21 <Gregor> Vorpal: Depends on the browser, depends on the page.
20:34:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, browser: firefox, page: a .png
20:34:43 <Gregor> Vorpal: It behaves like a page with just one image on it.
20:34:51 <Gregor> With some markup screwiness
20:34:53 <Vorpal> "<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><body xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
20:34:54 <Vorpal> <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Which game would you like to play?" [button with html tag in it]
20:35:49 <Gregor> I can't wait for my anise soda syrup to cool down, I'm impatient D-8
20:35:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, how did that screwiness happen
20:36:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, why is it hot?
20:36:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, also try cooling it
20:36:16 <Gregor> You can only make supersaturated sucrose syrup in hot water.
20:36:32 <Gregor> It's in the refrigerator, but it was boiling and it's dense so it'll still take a while :P
20:37:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, if you let it pass through a tube with that nifty "outer-tube-where-cold-water-flows-in-the-opposite-direction"-thingy then it should cool quite quickly
20:37:19 <Gregor> This is sucrose syrup, it doesn't "flow" :P
20:37:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, is it qctually soda then
20:37:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, soda shouldn't be syrupy. It should flow
20:37:52 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> It's in the refrigerator, but it was boiling and it's dense so it'll still take a while :P ← HEAT CAPACITY FAIL
20:38:01 <Gregor> Vorpal: This is soda SYRUP
20:38:12 <oerjan> Gregor: do other hyposmic people taste drinks like you do? i have this feeling these experiments ought to be of benefit to _someone_ else...
20:38:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, okay what about liquid nitrogen then?
20:38:24 <Gregor> oerjan: I've gotten mixed results :P
20:38:35 <Gregor> Vorpal: I've got a huge supply of that lawlehcoptah
20:38:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about normal freeze spray?
20:39:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, they can cool things to like -20 in a handful of seconds
20:39:26 <Gregor> I don't want frozen syrup :P
20:39:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, don't apply it for so long then duh!
20:39:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: zomg u r so helpful
20:39:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, besides "couple of seconds" was a for a 8-pin DIP
20:40:04 <Vorpal> Gregor, I'm sure it would take a bit longer for your thing
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20:41:56 <oerjan> hm i wonder if there is a faster, yet still not extra energy-requiring way of cooling boiling things down to room temperature (to save on refrigeration)
20:41:59 <pikhq> Sometimes, my packets end up going through a router that gleefully throws away all ICMP messages, including those required for path MTU discovery.
20:42:16 <oerjan> (below room temperature obviously needs energy)
20:42:21 <fizzie> Python and error reporting: http://p.zem.fi/8yf1
20:42:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, that router is badly misconfigured
20:42:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, try to report it to whoever controls it
20:42:59 <pikhq> I'll see if I can find who's got it.
20:43:08 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Python and error reporting: http://p.zem.fi/8yf1 <-- I have to admit I haven't seen that one, but could it be too much indention compared to the previous line perhaps?
20:43:26 <oerjan> i guess dependent on temperature, putting things outdoors may help, we sometimes do that in norway (well did when i was a child, at least)
20:43:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: The line was completely empty. The problem was a missing ) in a function comments few lines (and comments) backwards, though.
20:43:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, we still do here as well. Like when deiceing the freezer or such while it is winter.
20:44:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you mean
20:44:25 <oerjan> Vorpal: i wasn't thinking frozen things, just cooling recently boiled things
20:44:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, it checks you have ( and ) balanced in comments?
20:44:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, that too happens
20:44:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, but I think today it would end up colder than inside the freezer
20:44:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: I just mean that it reported the error for the last line of the while, while the one with the missing ( was several lines earlier, and there were comments in-between.
20:45:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, what a strange bug
20:45:25 <oerjan> Vorpal: well you don't want to keep it there too long
20:45:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, -20 °C over there too?
20:46:31 <fizzie> "Current temperature at Otaniemi: -20.81 °C"
20:47:28 <pikhq> The offending host is 184.99.1.22.
20:47:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, whois(1) is helpful
20:48:02 <oerjan> Vorpal: around -8 i think, iirc the forecast
20:48:13 * oerjan has no actual outside thermometer handy
20:48:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, also the forcast was way off
20:48:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, good luck getting past the stupid IT support when calling
20:48:59 <fizzie> oerjan: You smarmy Norwegians with your Gulf Streams.
20:49:15 -!- elliott has joined.
20:49:17 <oerjan> Vorpal: they've been having this strange phenomenon lately where the three-day forecast sometimes gives far too low temperatures, to the degree yr.no for a while included a warning against it
20:49:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, might be better to email the email listed in the whois record
20:49:36 <oerjan> (the first two days are comparably fine)
20:49:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, or abuse if they have one. This is abuse of the router :P
20:50:05 <pikhq> Not actually abuse, just a major administrative fail.
20:50:07 <elliott> <elliott> seriously who wrote this toolkit.
20:50:07 <elliott> * Disconnected (Connection timed out).
20:50:10 <elliott> WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH MY CONNECTION
20:50:23 <Vorpal> elliott, what toolkit?
20:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, also check if your MTU discovery works
20:50:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: i recall something vague about the computers not being able to handle very local variations
20:50:42 <oerjan> under some wind conditions
20:50:46 <Vorpal> elliott, just in case it is some sort of epidemic
20:51:12 <Vorpal> elliott, see log, check what pikhq talked about. far too long to explain
20:51:37 <Vorpal> elliott, start at "<pikhq> *Aaaaah*."
20:52:33 <elliott> what should i run to see if there's some evil router in my path :D
20:52:40 <pikhq> http://netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/
20:52:41 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: i recall something vague about the computers not being able to handle very local variations <-- hm okay
20:52:52 <elliott> pikhq: that seems complicated. i'm not clever. but okay...
20:53:01 <oerjan> Vorpal: it may be all those fjords throwing them off :D
20:53:05 <pikhq> elliott: It's an automated thing.
20:53:13 <elliott> pikhq: erm does that page actually have any way to run it
20:53:24 <elliott> so probably won't work, fun
20:53:25 <oerjan> otoh that doesn't explain why it didn't happen before
20:53:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: norway has a lot of local height variation
20:53:48 <elliott> pikhq: okay, let's see if this helps :P
20:53:54 <elliott> pikhq: maybe we have the same problematic router between us
20:53:57 <elliott> we could be BAD ROUTER BUDDIES?
20:54:34 <oerjan> <elliott> i don't skip logs <-- THAT'S DEDICATION
20:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, unlikely. It is at his ISP
20:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you hate the truth? :,(
20:55:10 <elliott> FIND THE BLOODY EXACT DNS MTU
20:55:37 <Vorpal> <oerjan> <elliott> i don't skip logs <-- THAT'S DEDICATION <-- no it is DSM
20:55:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:55:58 <Vorpal> elliott, what would C-e do?
20:56:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:56:03 <fizzie> oerjan: A local "tabloid"-style "news"paper recently (around start of this month) advertised themselves with (paraphrasing) "Exclusive! Exact weather reports for the whole next summer! Only from us!"
20:56:27 <Ilari> pikhq: Regarding MREs: The ingridients used probably aren't too healthy, but those rations are likely heavily fortified which would at least provode micronutriets. Unfortunately, the micronutrient list is probably missing couple essential ones. Also, it has so many carbs that one needs solid handling of blood glucose (even with all the activity).
20:56:31 <Vorpal> elliott, eject harddrive hotswap bay 17
20:56:45 <Vorpal> elliott, oh isn't that what end does
20:56:52 <elliott> Vorpal: do you... even use emacs?
20:56:55 <Vorpal> elliott, at least I'm used to end doing that in many text editors
20:57:02 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I do but I changed some keybindings around
20:57:08 <elliott> come on, i use the arrow keys in emacs, but even /I/ use Ctrl+A and Ctrl+E
20:57:10 <Vorpal> elliott, and I don't use ctrl-e or end a lot
20:57:12 <elliott> how the fuck do you move around your shell prompt?
20:57:18 <elliott> like you forgot to prepend sudo
20:57:23 <elliott> tap the left arrow key 100 times?
20:57:26 <elliott> also i need to make Ctrl+k do the right thing afterwards too...
20:57:32 <elliott> (/not/ what Emacs treats it as)
20:57:39 <Vorpal> elliott, you know inputrc?
20:57:54 <elliott> i don't know why anyone would use home/end. they're in the block of useless keys.
20:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, home jumps to start of the input for me. Easier to press too
20:58:00 <Sgeo_> Ok, I was not expecting Star Trek to take a strong anti-euthanasia stance
20:58:02 <elliott> easier to press than ctrl+a/e?
20:58:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean I don't even have to move my hand to reach home key
20:58:43 <Vorpal> well slightly up. But not much. Don't need to move for end though
20:59:00 <Vorpal> elliott, on a laptop I do of course, but not on a full size keyboard
20:59:06 <elliott> i wonder /why/ emacs is so retarded with ctrl-k.
20:59:11 <Vorpal> laptops place those keys so stupidly
20:59:23 <Vorpal> but then, there isn't much choice
20:59:33 <elliott> fn-left and fn-right are home/end on this.
20:59:37 <elliott> (fn-up and fn-down are pgup/pgdwn)
20:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, ouch that hurts
21:00:07 <elliott> the cursor keys are ok on this
21:00:29 <Vorpal> elliott, really if you can't reach end from home row position on a full size keyboard with the outermost finger your hands are too small :P
21:00:29 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:00:40 <Vorpal> maybe just as well he didn't see that
21:01:03 -!- elliott has joined.
21:01:09 <elliott> Your ISP's DNS server is slow to lookup names
21:01:13 <elliott> Certain TCP protocols are blocked in outbound traffic
21:01:15 <elliott> Fragmented UDP traffic is blocked
21:01:17 <elliott> The network path does not reply when it needs to fragment traffic
21:01:21 <elliott> Network packet buffering may be excessive
21:01:23 <elliott> that doesn't seem to help much.
21:01:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I very very much doubt fragmenting would happen for IRC
21:01:40 <elliott> Basic UDP access is available.
21:01:40 <elliott> The applet was able to send a packet of 1471 bytes of payload (1499 bytes total) only on the second try, suggesting your host is running Linux (or other path MTU discovery) on UDP traffic.
21:01:40 <elliott> The applet was unable to receive fragmented UDP traffic. The most likely cause is an error in your network's firewall configuration or NAT.
21:01:41 <pikhq> So, you too have path MTU discovery broken.
21:01:43 <elliott> The maximum packet successfully received was 1477 bytes of payload.
21:01:54 <Vorpal> elliott, that MTU looks good
21:01:55 <elliott> pikhq: so that would cause me not seeing any messages from the server for ages
21:02:02 <elliott> and reconnecting nearly immediately?
21:02:06 <elliott> (as in, no downtime delay)
21:02:15 <elliott> also, at the same time, i get disconnected from MSN Messenger
21:02:19 <Ilari> Does UDP-Lite work? :->
21:02:20 <pikhq> elliott: If it's somehow dropping fragmented packets.
21:02:23 <elliott> so I guess it's like a temporary outage?
21:02:46 <pikhq> You also seem to have bufferbloat.
21:02:49 <elliott> heh: [[We estimate your uplink as having 2600 msec of buffering. This is quite high, and you may experience substantial disruption to your network performance when performing interactive tasks such as web-surfing while simultaneously conducting large uploads. With such a buffer, real-time applications such as games or audio chat can work quite poorly when conducting large uploads at the same time.]]
21:02:50 <oerjan> <pikhq> So, you too have path MTU discovery broken. <-- SYNCHRONICITY
21:02:58 <elliott> apparently my isp's dns sucks.
21:03:09 * oerjan shuffles back into the corner
21:04:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, I wonder what that netalyzer will tell me. Turned on java to test. In particular I have a local dns server for example
21:04:23 <pikhq> I've not ended up actually testing my ISP's DNS; my DNS server is on localhost.
21:04:29 <oerjan> elliott: i assume you have tried several different irc servers.
21:04:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, also IPsec and an ipv6 tunnel. And what not
21:04:48 <elliott> i just use irc.freenode.net
21:04:52 <elliott> oerjan: since i get disconnected from msn messenger.
21:05:03 <oerjan> elliott: well that _is_ technically several different ones, i believe.
21:05:05 <pikhq> I'm still getting excessive buffering on uplink, even though I've throttled that to the point that load doesn't appear to cause RTT to go up. :/
21:05:08 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Going!).
21:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, was the analysis complete when you lost connection?
21:05:33 -!- variable has joined.
21:05:34 <oerjan> i have a default one in sweden and irc. as backup.
21:05:42 <elliott> it presents it all in one go.
21:05:54 <elliott> oerjan: YOU WOULD ASSOCIATE WITH SWEDES?
21:06:07 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as it completed then since otherwise I bet that would have screwed it up
21:06:22 -!- augur has joined.
21:07:09 <Vorpal> elliott, as for filtered ports. I guess SMTP?
21:08:01 <elliott> yes. and netbios and stuff.
21:08:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that's quite sane
21:09:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I would probably do the same for non-business customers when it comes to SMTP if I ran the network operations for an ISP. And NetBIOS I would definitely block for everyone out.
21:09:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, I wonder why it reports "No DNS Port Randomization"
21:09:41 <oerjan> elliott: for quite a while there was no freenode server in norway. i think there is one again now but i haven't bothered to change.
21:10:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, I use unbound after all
21:10:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: You're set up for a DNS cache poisoning.
21:10:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Check your unbound settings.
21:11:10 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I would probably do the same for non-business customers when it comes to SMTP if I ran the network operations for an ISP. And NetBIOS I would definitely block for everyone out.
21:11:16 <elliott> blocking smtp doesn't help anything.
21:11:26 <elliott> and blocking netbios is pointless, that hasn't been a threat in like 200 yeras.
21:11:34 <elliott> Fucking with the tubes is why every ISP sucks.
21:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it prevents sending spam from botnets on those computers
21:11:59 <elliott> Vorpal: And that's why nobody gets any spam!
21:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it would be worse if they didn't block that
21:12:29 <elliott> John Gilmore gazes sadly at thee.
21:12:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Uh, blocking outgoing SMTP prevents people from using *normal mail clients*.
21:12:47 <elliott> Vorpal: You know that strongSwan thing you love?
21:12:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, great. My IPv6 has asymmetric MTU...
21:12:59 <elliott> Derives from code written by John Gilmore, who now hates you. :P
21:13:34 <Vorpal> elliott, why would Gilmore hate me?
21:13:35 <elliott> Of which strongSwan is a fork.
21:13:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Because he runs an open mail relay.
21:13:53 <elliott> And hates a lot of anti-spammers because of it.
21:14:03 <elliott> (His ISP disabled his connection after a bunch of people yelled.)
21:14:12 <elliott> He owns the domain toad.com which is one of the 100 oldest active .com domains. It was registered on August 18, 1987. He runs the mail server at toad.com as an open mail relay. In October 2002, Gilmore's ISP, Verio, cut off his Internet access for running an open relay, a violation of Verio's terms of service. Many people contend that open relays make it too easy to send spam. Gilmore protests that his mail server was programmed to be essentially
21:14:12 <elliott> useless to spammers and other senders of mass email and he argues that Verio's actions constitute censorship. He also notes that his configuration makes it easier for friends who travel to send email, although his critics counter that there are other mechanisms to accommodate people wanting to send email while traveling. The measures Gilmore took to make his server useless to spammers may or may not have helped, considering that in 2002, at leas
21:14:13 <elliott> t one massmailing worm that sent through open relays—W32.Yaha—had been hardcoded to relay through the toad.com mailserver. An article citing this was posted, and a subsequent discussion on the issue took place, on Declan McCullagh's Politechbot mailing list. to archived article and discussion
21:14:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, any idea what in unbound settings I should look for?
21:14:34 <fizzie> pikhq: Blocking outgoing SMTP just means everyone configures your whitelisted SMTP server as their "outgoing mail" server; I thought that was pretty much common practice. I mean, normal email clients don't do direct-to-MX mail delivery.
21:14:51 <elliott> To be honest, blocking open mail relays does not really help at all.
21:14:55 <elliott> The spam problem is way too big for that to matter at all.
21:15:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not a clue; it "just works" for me.
21:15:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, I see nothing obviously wrong. So it would have to be bad defaults.
21:15:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm I suspect my NAT might be doing something strange with DNS requests
21:15:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, that would make sense
21:16:02 <pikhq> fizzie: Funny, by having a single SMTP server whitelisted then you're either making it so that people can only use the ISP's mail service *or* you're giving them a completely open relay.
21:16:10 <pikhq> fizzie: Which *actually allows spam*.
21:16:21 <Sgeo_> Windows was being weird
21:16:40 <Sgeo_> A YouTube video randomly lept to my desktop
21:17:07 <Vorpal> elliott, btw SMTP was not blocked for me
21:17:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, any idea about: <Vorpal> pikhq, great. My IPv6 has asymmetric MTU...
21:17:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not a clue.
21:17:36 <fizzie> pikhq: The ISP's whitelisted server of course allows "spam" coming from their customer networks, yes. It's not an "open relay" though.
21:17:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, also "Your system can send fragmented traffic, but can not receive fragmented traffic over IPv6."
21:17:57 <pikhq> fizzie: Close enough as far as a botnet is concerned.
21:18:13 <pikhq> Assuming a botnet smart enough to actually figure out which SMTP server is allowed.
21:18:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, and what about password for SMTP server?
21:18:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: Botnet can sniff.
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21:19:17 <fizzie> The server address is probably diggable from Outlook/Thunderbird/maybe-a-few-more-clients configuration settings pretty easily for say 98% of hosts.
21:19:21 <pikhq> Basically, blocking SMTP does very little beyond making things inconvenient for legit use.
21:20:19 <Vorpal> elliott, err wait it says I'm good on SMTP out for ipv6 but it doesn't even list it for ipv4
21:20:43 <fizzie> It's still not exactly an unknown practice. I'm not sure what my ISP does, since I'm just using their outgoing SMTP server anyway.
21:21:13 <Vorpal> Your system can successfully look up IPv6 addresses. Your DNS resolver is not on Google's IPv6 "whitelist", which means that Google does not enable IPv6 access to their services for you.
21:21:16 * pikhq appears to have all outgoing ports allowed.
21:21:17 <Vorpal> Why do they point that out
21:21:23 <Vorpal> that it isn't done by google?
21:21:32 <fizzie> I don't think there are any ISPs that don't provide an open-to-their-customers SMTP relay server, though; it's not like the customers in question have anything else to put in their email client's outgoing-server configurations.
21:21:36 <elliott> Vorpal: because google's ipv6 whitelist is important
21:21:42 <elliott> Vorpal: they leave off services that have problems or something
21:21:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Google currently only hands out AAAA records to whitelisted servers on networks that have working IPv6.
21:22:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I think there's some IPv6-enabled services that, when Google gave them IPv6 access, IPv4 access to Google got way slower
21:22:35 <pikhq> elliott: The issue is that broken systems will claim to have IPv6 but not actually have it.
21:22:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I can imagine that ipv6 is slower than ipv4 in a lot of cases as well as there being timeouts on ipv6 first
21:22:43 <pikhq> elliott: Causing them to wait for a IPv6 timeout.
21:22:45 <elliott> Which is why you can't send AAAA JUST ANYWHERE
21:22:52 <fizzie> "To qualify for Google over IPv6, your network must meet a number of requirements. These include:
21:22:52 <fizzie> Low latency, redundant paths to Google using direct peering or reliable transit
21:22:52 <fizzie> Production-quality IPv6 support and reliability
21:22:52 <fizzie> Separate DNS servers for your IPv6 users (not shared with IPv4-only users)
21:22:52 <fizzie> Users who have opted in to IPv6 services and know how to opt out if they experience problems with Google services"
21:22:56 <fizzie> They have quite some requirements there.
21:23:01 <Ilari> There's even worse problems: Some systems have IPv6 connectivity but the path is broken somewhere.
21:23:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Those requirements are sure to change soon.
21:23:40 <elliott> "Users who have opted in to IPv6 services and know how to opt out if they experience problems with Google services"
21:23:41 <variable> Vorpal: IPv6 is only "slower" if your system is set to try IPv6 first but they service doesn't offer IPv6 but it does provide AAAA records
21:23:41 <Vorpal> Ilari, that happens a lot on ipv6 :P
21:23:44 <pikhq> No more than a year until we've got v6-only hosts going up.
21:23:55 <Vorpal> variable, no it is slower if you have an ipv6 tunnel
21:23:56 <elliott> variable: or if your isp is broken
21:23:59 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: The issue is that broken systems will claim to have IPv6 but not actually have it.
21:24:01 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Causing them to wait for a IPv6 timeout.
21:24:11 <variable> Vorpal: ok - or if you have a tunnel
21:24:12 <Ilari> I have already seen v6-only hosts.
21:24:27 <variable> <elliott> variable: or if your isp is broken --> same with V4
21:24:28 <pikhq> Ilari: Probably not common, though.
21:24:38 <elliott> variable: because every isp supports v4
21:24:39 <Ilari> Even included v6 address literals.
21:24:43 <pikhq> variable: IPv4 breakage is obvious.
21:24:46 <elliott> claim to have v6 + don't support v6 + AAAA -> timeout
21:25:10 <Ilari> I have seen even more bizarre IPv6 breakage than paths not working.
21:25:11 <pikhq> IPv6 breakage will be perceived as "Dang, this site is slow. WTF?"
21:25:35 <pikhq> (unless the host is v6-only, in which case it's obvious again. This is just not a common case yet.)
21:26:27 <Ilari> Basically: TCP connection establishes (paths both ways working) but then the connection instahangs as first packet other end sends gets blackholed. There will be no fallback to IPv4 since the connection established.
21:26:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay the port for DNS issue is due to my NAT. I checked with wireshark...
21:26:56 <elliott> I wonder how good Bogons' IPv6 is.
21:27:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's perverse.
21:27:39 <pikhq> Your NAT is broken.
21:27:53 <elliott> At least I'd have a static IP
21:27:59 <elliott> And could use a proper router.
21:28:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes I blame speedtouch
21:28:55 <elliott> SpeedTouch gateways have been criticized because the algorithm used by the manufacturer to set both the default SSID and the corresponding WEP/WPA-PSK/WPA2-PSK passwords was very easily compromised, meaning that wireless access to SpeedTouch models that still use the default password is easily possible.[20]
21:28:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I could use a proper router by reconfiguring the adsl modem to not do NAT and then buy an expensive router
21:29:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean: I could use a proper Linksys modem too.
21:29:15 <elliott> Because Bogons aren't assholes.
21:29:28 <Vorpal> elliott, uh my speedtouch didn't have default settings for either of those and required you to fill that in.
21:29:28 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:29:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, "<Vorpal> pikhq, yes I blame speedtouch" -> "<pikhq> Vorpal: Eeeew." or?
21:29:47 -!- elliott has joined.
21:29:55 <elliott> THIS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE LIKE TODAY
21:30:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: SpeedTouch seems to be filled with security violations, then.
21:30:18 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway: <Vorpal> elliott, uh my speedtouch didn't have default settings for either of those and required you to fill that in.
21:30:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and well default SSID/pass. Keeping those is just stupid anyway
21:30:47 <Vorpal> elliott, if you do that it isn't the manufacture's fault. It is your own fault.
21:30:56 * elliott 's SSID is Revolutionary Opticians. don't ask.
21:31:14 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is a randomly generated string. Well pseudo-randomly
21:31:32 <elliott> Previously it was "supersonic mosquitos", which is just as meaningless.
21:31:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think it's reasonable to expect random users to set their own SSID.
21:31:48 <Vorpal> elliott, if I manufactured an AP I would make it use the default SSID "CONFIGURE THIS" and the default password "FILL THIS IN"
21:31:48 <variable> mine is "lifetime supply" with a password of some random foodstuff
21:32:07 <elliott> What's wrong with <Manufacturer>-<random string>?
21:32:22 <elliott> There's no reason users should have to be bugged with setting that.
21:32:25 <variable> Vorpal: most users wouldn't change - even though it says to
21:32:26 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:32:34 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Windows should come with default password for your account too
21:33:01 -!- elliott has joined.
21:33:02 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, right. Windows should come with default password for your account too.
21:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I COMPLETELY AGREE!
21:33:06 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, if I manufactured an AP I would make it use the default SSID "CONFIGURE THIS" and the default password "FILL THIS IN"
21:33:09 <elliott> <variable> mine is "lifetime supply" with a password of some random foodstuff
21:33:11 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: Oh please.
21:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I got that...
21:33:15 <elliott> <elliott> What's wrong with <Manufacturer>-<random string>?
21:33:17 <elliott> <elliott> There's no reason users should have to be bugged with setting that.
21:33:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude. SSID != password ...
21:33:27 <elliott> Who gives a shit what your SSID is if you have a good password?
21:33:32 <Vorpal> elliott, true but for the password for the network
21:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott, so okay the SSID could be randomised like you suggest
21:33:50 <Vorpal> but the password would be FILL THIS IN
21:34:13 <elliott> Instead of "FILL THIS IN" why not just have it redirect all pages to a "yo gimme a password" screen.
21:34:17 <elliott> Then people would actually see it :P
21:34:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I assumed it would be required to change on that "first setup" page you get
21:35:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you know, where you enter stuff like ADSL login and what not
21:35:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Forgot about it, but I did in fact also plot the overall match-length histogram back then: http://zem.fi/~fis/cycleh15b.png
21:36:07 <elliott> But while we're dreaming, can we eliminate ADSL too?
21:36:16 <variable> Vorpal: people would be guaranteed to enter one and just forget what they put in. It would be better to provide one to the user with a warning that says "print this out" -> its better to tell the user to take affirmative action to remember things than passive action to "not forget" things
21:36:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, is the x-axis tape length?
21:36:34 <oerjan> pikhq: i followed the *.abuse.email (iirc) newgroup for a while during the 90's. blocking outgoing smtp was very much considered an essential prevention agains spam then.
21:36:40 <elliott> WiFi passwords are a bit pointless, "pairing" seems much saner
21:36:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it's the match length in 10^x cycles. It's a match length histogram, after all.
21:36:52 <variable> <elliott> WiFi passwords are a bit pointless, "pairing" seems much saner ---> agreed
21:36:54 <elliott> where you have to physically press a button on the router to let a new MAC connect
21:36:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> But while we're dreaming, can we eliminate ADSL too? <-- yeah but it is unlikely you would get cable everywhere that you could get ADSL
21:37:15 <variable> elliott: or even just a number on the device with a "pairing password" or whatever
21:37:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that is even more unlikely outside cities
21:37:18 <fizzie> elliott: Fibre? Telepathy.
21:37:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Eh, it's happening...
21:37:40 <elliott> What was that place that was rolling out fibre into shitloads of rural areas? .au?
21:37:47 <Ilari> Fibre and the last few tens of metres with Ethernet? :-)
21:37:48 <Vorpal> elliott, by my norm, some 90% of UK is densely populated :P
21:37:59 <elliott> Yes, it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadband_Network
21:38:15 <elliott> Committed download speeds of 100 megabits per second, and peak download speeds of 1 gigabit per second for 93% of Australia homes and businesses[10] using a Gigabit Passive optical network (GPON) or Ethernet Point to Point fibre[11]
21:38:15 <elliott> The remainder of Australian homes and businesses will be serviced by a combination of next generation wireless and satellite technologies with a minimum speed of 12 megabits per second
21:39:05 <elliott> Ilari: Underground Ethernet cables, I like it :P
21:39:37 <Vorpal> elliott, the bottleneck listed for the assymetric MTU is my tunnel endpoint
21:39:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, even by your norm Australia is like 0% densely populated :P
21:39:46 <Vorpal> I have no idea what is going on here
21:39:51 <elliott> So fibre on a wide scale _is_ feasible...
21:40:45 <Vorpal> elliott, ... "[...] providing download speeds of up to 1 Gigabit per second to 93% of Australian homes and businesses, with the remaining 7% of premises being connected at up to 12 Megabits per second using wireless and satellite technologies,"
21:40:55 <Vorpal> elliott, now. About what percentage lives in the outback?
21:41:00 <elliott> Vorpal: It's not about the outback.
21:41:13 <Vorpal> elliott, of course it is feasible in Sydney
21:41:15 <elliott> Vorpal: There's plenty of rural areas near the cities that aren't in the outback :P
21:41:28 <elliott> ISTR news stories about them laying down fibre in such places.
21:41:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but outback is where the big problems start
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21:41:47 <elliott> I think people in the outback are happy enough to have water, never mind fibre-optic broadband :P
21:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. And I suspect they are about 7%, perhaps slightly more or slightly less
21:42:32 -!- variable has joined.
21:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: But anyway, if we're talking about its relevancy to other countries, we can just pretend the outback doesn't exist X-P
21:43:02 <fizzie> Ilari: Sonera seems to be doing quite a lot of "fibre to the basement" sort of stuff nowadays, and then the last few metres with VDSL2 (for buildings with no suitable Ethernets in them, of course).
21:43:22 <elliott> Fibre to the room. You need to run copper from there to your computer.
21:43:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, that doesn't help us who live in freestanding houses
21:44:02 <elliott> Fibre to the one-cm-gap-to-your-Ethernet-port.
21:44:10 <elliott> There's a teeny tiny Ethernet connecting the rest of the way.
21:44:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm sure they'd be willing to dig a cable to your place too if you just fork over enough money. :p
21:44:16 <variable> elliott: I've seen proposals to have fibre to the computer
21:44:28 <Vorpal> elliott, fibre to the on-board fibre controller in your laptop :P
21:44:29 <elliott> "Just gonna open up your computer here, hope you don't mind"
21:44:30 <variable> (and cut out the ethernet connection entirely)
21:44:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt that will happen
21:44:54 <Vorpal> variable, the issue with that is distributing it to a LAN
21:44:55 <elliott> variable: That's kind of impractical unless we get fibre routers.
21:44:59 <elliott> Which would be "interesting".
21:45:20 <Vorpal> elliott, fibre *switches* do exist, no?
21:45:34 <variable> elliott: Vorpal I'm very much aware of that. Nonetheless I've seen serious proposals (from people in the business) to offer this
21:45:34 <elliott> I suppose it could work if everybody normal used wifi, and the SPEED DEMONS plugged the fibre cable in to their DECKED OUT motherboard.
21:45:45 <elliott> Consumer use of Ethernet is dying out I'd say.
21:46:10 <Vorpal> elliott, what, really?
21:46:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's all wireless nowadays.
21:46:21 <Vorpal> elliott, but wifi is slow and unreliable
21:46:37 <elliott> "unreliable"? By what definition?
21:46:51 <Vorpal> elliott, by comparing to gbit ethernet over S/UTP :P
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21:47:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, nobody uses that.
21:47:17 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, everyone seems to use channel 6 or 11....
21:47:23 <Vorpal> so stick to 13, then you are mostly good to go
21:47:33 <Vorpal> needs manual reconfiguration in your AP likely
21:47:44 <Vorpal> elliott, also I use that
21:47:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but you're not a Person.
21:47:57 <elliott> You do not factor in to any statistics.
21:47:59 <Vorpal> elliott, besides I doubt computers will be without ethernet for some time to come
21:48:02 <elliott> Your use-case does not exist.
21:48:12 <fizzie> 802.11n speeds in reality do tend to be a bit less-than-impressive, at least with the AP behind a few walls and so on. Perfectly usable for most things, of course, but not the promised multi-hundred-megabits all the time.
21:48:13 <Vorpal> elliott, becuase companies use it
21:48:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm sure it'll happen on laptops very, very quickly.
21:48:22 <elliott> Businesses are an excuse to sell business machines.
21:48:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Nobody apart from business uses ThinkPads.
21:48:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't really know what Sonera's fibre-to-the-basement business model is; our apartment building (with 48 apartments) got a letter from Sonera that they'd like to dig a cable (or use an existing pipe) to our telephone center box completely free of charge; we're sort of expecting they're going to follow with another letter somewhere along the lines of "now that you have our cable there, how about some speedy internets?"
21:49:01 <elliott> Vorpal: You do not exist. Nobody is going to make decisions based on your use-case, which does not exist.
21:49:03 <Vorpal> <fizzie> 802.11n speeds in reality do tend to be a bit less-than-impressive, at least with the AP behind a few walls and so on. Perfectly usable for most things, of course, but not the promised multi-hundred-megabits all the time. <-- indeed
21:49:12 <elliott> You are one percent of a percent of a percent of a percent of a percent of a percent.
21:49:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, let me see what I get on 11g here... *fiddles with laptop*
21:49:31 <Vorpal> curse you, why do you take ages to connect
21:49:58 <pikhq> fizzie: Buffer bloat kills 802.11.
21:50:00 <Vorpal> 11 Mb/s according to iwconfig
21:50:18 <Vorpal> elliott, this is 11g though, but the laptop can do 11n as well
21:50:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: You probably have seconds of buffer.
21:51:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, on that laptop yes I would have that
21:51:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, I normally hook it up on gbit ethernet when home
21:51:13 <pikhq> Which kills TCP congestion control, which kills latency and bandwidth.
21:51:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, and it's up to 24 Mb/s now
21:51:27 <pikhq> And makes congested links entirely unusable.
21:52:51 * pikhq would like to beat all the people who think that no packet loss is a desirable thing.
21:52:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, ping reports rtt to google.com over wlan as avg of 33.114 ms. Let me hook it back up on ethernet and compare
21:53:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Try saturating the link and then pinging google.com.
21:53:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, meh I don't want to flood myself off irc :P
21:53:33 <elliott> pikhq: Ah - but - the gamers.
21:53:47 <elliott> "FUCK YEA MY CONNECTION IMA FRAG SOME NOOBS WITH MY ULTRA-LOW PINGIZZLE"
21:53:49 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, the gamers want to minimise latency.
21:54:00 <elliott> You're forgetting factor B.
21:54:03 <elliott> Factor B: Gamers are retarded.
21:54:15 <pikhq> And oddly enough, the smarter ones have been mitigating bufferbloat for a while now.
21:54:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway for gbit ethernet it is 31.338 average
21:54:26 <elliott> These are the same people who build glow-in-the-dark watercooled monstrosities :P
21:54:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, but note I'm on channel 13, and that is not crowded for some reason
21:54:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Saturate the link.
21:54:37 <elliott> And tweak Windows god knows how much.
21:54:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, it seems auto selecting of channels try to skip it
21:54:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, by scping something to another computer on the lan or?
21:54:57 <pikhq> Latency on an uncongested link is not a very good measure any more...
21:55:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, that depends on which buffer you want to see at max. :P
21:55:32 <invariable> *sigh* measuring internet speeds have been the subject of PhD thesis
21:55:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, I will not be able to saturate ethernet for it. Since it is the only computer turned on atm with gbit ethernet
21:56:29 <pikhq> invariable: Doesn't require a doctorate to realise that latency on uncongested links is not very important when congestion can add seconds of latency.
21:56:29 <elliott> MY INTERNETS ARE FAST BECAUSE I GET -3 MS PING
21:56:37 <elliott> PING RESPONSES COME BEFORE I SEND THEM
21:56:51 <pikhq> But, yeah, it certainly can be complex.
21:56:52 <Vorpal> invariable, that is because things are so stupid. Something like the CAN bus is dead trivial to figure out
21:57:00 <Vorpal> (of course it wouldn't scale)
21:57:03 <elliott> invariable: "It's the Latency, Stupid" amuses me highly
21:57:20 <pikhq> http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html
21:57:35 <elliott> invariable: The page: MODEMS HAVE 100 MS LATENCY! Me: Damn, I wish I got that kind of ping.
21:57:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, err, I have QoS setup I think from an earlier experiment. So it might not be as easy to check this.
21:57:55 * pikhq gets 80ms ping to Google.
21:58:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: QoS != avoiding buffer bloat.
21:58:20 <invariable> pikhq: odd. I read _A lot_ about this subject and have not come across this before
21:58:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: Unless you've got it set to shape bandwidth to slightly less than provisioned.
21:58:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, I forgot what I set it up
21:58:51 <invariable> elliott: hence the "odd" - I'm reading it now
21:59:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Your local network is probably still susceptible, but your WAN link should be just fine.
21:59:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway doesn't 802.11 do checksuming and resending across the *link*. As opposed to normal wired connections that do it at the endpoints
21:59:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, I seem to remember this
21:59:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: 802.11 doesn't do resending at all.
22:00:07 <pikhq> It's a minor modification of the Ethernet scheme.
22:00:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, could be I confused it with wimax or 3G or something then
22:00:37 <pikhq> 3G does checksumming and resending across the link, yes.
22:00:52 <pikhq> And a large number of other things that really fuck with TCP.
22:01:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, right. Which is very strange. It goes against one of the major keypoints to making internet scale
22:01:10 <invariable> elliott: actually - I did see it before. I recall the conclusion of the article. Maybe I saw a quote?
22:01:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Telephone networks are set up assuming that the network is smart and the endpoints are retarded.
22:01:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: The Internet is set up assuming that the network is retarded and the endpoints are smart.
22:01:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, uh... but that is no longer true for data traffic over 3G
22:01:52 <pikhq> So, what we're seeing is impedence mismatch between the two spaces.
22:02:12 <elliott> invariable: pikhq: Also: "Everyone knows that when you buy a hard disk you should check what its seek time is. The maximum transfer rate is something you might also be concerned with, but the seek time is definitely more important."
22:02:17 <elliott> invariable: pikhq: I WISH THAT WERE STILL TRUE.
22:02:25 <Vorpal> invariable, I don't see that it is an analogy. It seems plain fact
22:02:57 <invariable> I know its true - but I've never been able to explain it easily
22:02:58 <elliott> Like the idiots who dismiss SSDs because, omg, their linear transfer rate isn't as good as my 1000000000KRPM "RAPTORSAURUS SEX"!
22:03:13 <elliott> But sure, 1000000000 krpm raptosaurus sex.
22:03:24 <Vorpal> elliott, Freud was right
22:03:47 <elliott> Vorpal: INDEED, LIKE HE SAID, SOMETIMES A CIGAR IS JUST A CIGAR, LIKE NOW. STOP LOOKING AT MY CIGAR.
22:03:48 <invariable> Vorpal: I've been working on my soft skills (writing, etc) because I know a lot of the "hard" stuff already - I like seeing better ways to explain things :-)
22:04:21 <Vorpal> invariable, resort to technical terms.
22:04:25 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:04:34 <invariable> elliott: I dislike SSDs because of the fast failure rate. Once that's under control (and the price is reasonable) I'll care a lot more
22:04:47 -!- elliott has joined.
22:04:52 <Vorpal> I dislike SSD because of the price yeah.
22:04:53 <elliott> <Vorpal> invariable, resort to technical terms.
22:04:55 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: WHAT A GREAT IDEA
22:04:57 <elliott> * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
22:05:05 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> invariable, resort to technical terms.
22:05:06 <Vorpal> + elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:05:11 <elliott> 14:04:34 <invariable> elliott: I dislike SSDs because of the fast failure rate. Once that's under control (and the price is reasonable) I'll care a lot more
22:05:14 <Vorpal> elliott, do you think I was serious?
22:05:21 <elliott> invariable: The failure rate isn't fast on any good SSDs that I know of (Intel).
22:05:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I didn't see the ;) :P
22:05:26 <pikhq> invariable: SSD's failure rate is pretty low by now.
22:05:32 <pikhq> invariable: Think "years of constant use".
22:05:36 <elliott> invariable: Besides, the failure mode is "becomes read-only".
22:05:47 <Vorpal> elliott, that is *one* failure mode
22:05:47 <pikhq> Oh, and the failure rate is, of course, based on number of write cycles.
22:05:47 <elliott> invariable: Which is a lot better than mechanical disks' failure mode, which is "OH GOD MY DATA".
22:05:51 -!- StukaBR has joined.
22:05:52 <elliott> Vorpal: The most common failure mode by far :P
22:05:53 <invariable> pikhq: its still worse than typical HDDs. And its not pure failure rate. its sector failure rate
22:06:09 <elliott> invariable: I would trust data to an Intel SSD more than I would trust it to any mechanical disk.
22:06:18 <pikhq> Unlike mechanical disk's failure rate, which is based on time running.
22:06:18 <invariable> <elliott> invariable: Besides, the failure mode is "becomes read-only". --> this is interesting
22:06:26 <pikhq> And spin-up cycles.
22:06:28 <elliott> invariable: Because, again, by FAR the most common way for an SSD to fail is: after lots and lots of writing, data becomes read-only.
22:06:29 <Vorpal> I will switch to SSD when I can afford two 1 TB ones
22:06:46 <invariable> elliott: interesting - I'd like to read more about that
22:06:48 <elliott> If you put some data on an SSD, and leave it for 50 years, you've got a damn good chance of being able to read it back. Perhaps even longer.
22:06:54 <elliott> Those are just guesses of course.
22:07:10 <elliott> invariable: Hmm, no, I haven't, but AnandTech is my source for SSD-related info.
22:07:15 <Vorpal> invariable, /me uses third person
22:07:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, the capacity/dollar ratio is the only downside to SSDs right now.
22:07:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's just around 5 kiloeur; you are so cheap!
22:07:28 <elliott> invariable: Quick google brings up this (HIGHLY RELIABLE) forum thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2020590
22:07:37 <elliott> "It depends on the failure mode. For instance, when set on fire, hard drives and SSDs both provide equally fantastic recovery rates of 0%. "
22:07:58 <elliott> "For certain failure modes, it is believed that SSDs will still allow you to recover whatever data was previously on the drive; that said, all the SSD failures I've ever heard of have been non-recoverable firmware issues." ;; this is probably true because it's hard to invoke the real failure mode... but Intel SSD firmware is good from what i hear
22:07:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, and for hdds it is like.... 2000 SEK?
22:08:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, something like that
22:08:03 <elliott> SSDs are much more mature now
22:08:05 <pikhq> elliott: Not quite. It may be possible to have a forensics lab extract some data.
22:08:10 <oerjan> <elliott> THIS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE LIKE TODAY <-- wild hypothesis: isps are no starting to scramble to get ipv6 working and breaking everything else in the process
22:08:11 <pikhq> elliott: *Thermite*, on the other hand.
22:08:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, which is about 220 EUR
22:08:29 -!- StukaBR has quit.
22:08:47 <elliott> invariable: Anyway the only sane thing to put on SSDs nowadays is OS and software because of the capacity/cost ratio.
22:08:55 <pikhq> Mmmmm, hot enough to randomise the magnetic domains.
22:08:58 <elliott> For those, you don't really care how reliable the data is. :P
22:09:14 <pikhq> elliott: Windows users.
22:09:14 <Vorpal> <oerjan> <elliott> THIS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE LIKE TODAY <-- wild hypothesis: isps are no starting to scramble to get ipv6 working and breaking everything else in the process <-- too good to be true
22:09:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: 1 TB SATA HDs are somewhere around 50-60 eur, so it's 120 EUR for 2*1TB.
22:09:27 <pikhq> *Such* a fucking pain to reinstall.
22:09:30 <elliott> pikhq: PFFT LIKE ANYBODY USES WINDOWS.
22:09:30 <invariable> elliott: yes - this is true. If I had the money I might actually look into doing so
22:09:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I like your statistics. First you dismiss me as 0%, then you do the same to windows users
22:09:59 <oerjan> <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think it's reasonable to expect random users to set their own SSID. <-- heck my landlady cannot even find where she mislaid the passwords that _were_ set...
22:10:23 <oerjan> (which means no one but her actually gets to use the wireless)
22:10:31 <elliott> invariable: Wellll, the lucky people who have newegg can get a 40 Gio Intel SSD for $94.99.
22:10:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, why doesn't she just get a paperclip and push it into the reset hole?
22:10:36 <elliott> (Well, if it weren't out of stock.)
22:10:40 <elliott> invariable: And 80 Gio for $171.99.
22:11:06 <elliott> Where 80 Gio ~= 86 Go, of course.
22:11:07 <invariable> elliott: my budget for computer parts was exhausted recently when I bought another 2GB stick of ram :-\
22:11:13 <pikhq> A "mere" $4000 for a 1TB SSD.
22:11:29 <elliott> invariable: Hehe... must be a pretty small budget considering how cheap RAM is :) unless you're on DDR or something.
22:11:34 <elliott> (Can you even get 2 Gio DDR sticks?)
22:11:39 <Vorpal> elliott, what is wrong with the word "byte"
22:11:47 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you using octets suddenly
22:11:48 <elliott> Vorpal: There have been systems with 9-bit bytes.
22:11:59 <invariable> elliott: I need to pay for other things... like university :-\\
22:12:00 <elliott> And because I'm legally obligated to rip off Deewiant at every available opportunity.
22:12:09 <elliott> Who needs university when you have computers!
22:12:15 <elliott> Vorpal: His Fungicide results use "io", yes.
22:12:23 <elliott> Except with a capital K for Kio because he's a Nazi.
22:12:24 <Vorpal> elliott, so why do you not use bits As in... 320 Gib?
22:12:33 <invariable> elliott: unfortunately one can't get grant money without a degree :-\
22:12:38 <elliott> Vorpal: WAY TO NOT PUNCTUATE, got confused there
22:12:47 <elliott> Vorpal: But yes, I would use b to denote internet speeds.
22:12:52 <elliott> My internet connection is 8 Mib.
22:12:56 <Vorpal> elliott, oops missed a . indeed
22:12:58 <elliott> (I suppose it might technically be 8 Mb, but I doubt it.)
22:13:13 <elliott> (Since I've got 1 Mio/s download occassionally.)
22:13:16 <Deewiant> I only use o and bit because b is overloaded
22:13:26 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:13:37 <Vorpal> elliott, wow I have two 8 Gib HDDs. Isn't that impressive.
22:13:47 <Deewiant> Well, when I don't care that much about comprehension, anyway
22:13:48 <Vorpal> elliott, wow I have two 8 Tib HDDs. Isn't that impressive.
22:13:49 -!- elliott has joined.
22:13:53 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, wow I have two 8 Tib HDDs. Isn't that impressive.
22:13:54 <elliott> <Deewiant> I only use o and bit because b is overloaded
22:13:56 <elliott> <elliott> Deewiant: Not for all those people on systems with 9-bit bytes?
22:13:58 <elliott> * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
22:14:00 <elliott> Deewiant: Using bytes is like measuring things in megawords!
22:14:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I bet most people wouldn't notice the lower case b
22:14:04 <elliott> It is a RELIC of the PAST!!!
22:14:04 <invariable> Vorpal: when I installed the extra 2GB of ram I found an extra HDD in the case I didn't know I had
22:14:24 <elliott> invariable: Yeah, I appear to have the same problem pikhq is having X-D
22:14:30 <pikhq> elliott: Except worse.
22:14:31 <fizzie> Telecom people do tend to use M instead of Mi everywhere, so 8 Mbps sounds more likely.
22:14:31 <Vorpal> invariable, was it unconnected?
22:14:32 <Deewiant> elliott: b is overloaded to mean byte and bit, and byte is further overloaded :-P
22:14:40 <Vorpal> invariable, SATA or PATA?
22:14:49 <pikhq> elliott: Also, I trial-and-error'd the right MTU.
22:14:52 <elliott> Deewiant: True, I wonder how invariable got ahold of 2 megabels of RAM.
22:15:04 <Vorpal> invariable, okay you can still hook it up and use it for swap or such
22:15:11 <Vorpal> invariable, most mobos still have some IDE connectors
22:15:14 <pikhq> ping -s SIZE -M do www.google.com
22:15:21 <Vorpal> invariable, what was on it?
22:15:26 <Vorpal> invariable, was the disk broken?
22:15:31 <fizzie> The net here is *very* theoretically 24 Mbps, but it's never quite that even channel-wise.
22:15:33 <pikhq> SIZE will be 28 smaller than the actual link MTU.
22:15:34 <Vorpal> invariable, was it a quantum fireball?
22:15:41 <invariable> Vorpal: nothing useful. Disk worked. using it for swap now
22:15:42 <elliott> where = is pronounced "equal to"
22:15:43 <fizzie> styx> wan adsl chandata
22:15:43 <fizzie> DSL standard: ADSL2+ Mode
22:15:43 <fizzie> near-end bit rate: 20282 kbps
22:15:43 <fizzie> far-end bit rate: 1015 kbps
22:15:48 <fizzie> Well, that's in fact quite close.
22:15:51 <pikhq> elliott: PATA = ATA over IDE.
22:15:57 <elliott> fizzie: What kind of monster uses > as a prompt?
22:16:04 <pikhq> IDE is a variant of ISA.
22:16:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, is IDE really a variant of the *ISA bus*?
22:16:27 <fizzie> elliott: It's a ZyXEL ADSL modem thingie; it runs something bizarrely named, I think it was ZyNOS.
22:16:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, so did they use something else than ATA over IDE?
22:17:09 <Vorpal> elliott, PCI over ISA is just silly :P
22:17:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: The IDE protocol.
22:17:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is/was that?
22:17:25 <elliott> PCI over IDE would be awesome.
22:17:29 <elliott> "PLUG THE GRAPHICS CARD INTO YOUR HARD DRIVE PORT."
22:17:43 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, never mind.
22:17:50 <pikhq> PATA and IDE are synonyms.
22:18:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, and was ISA ever involved?
22:18:04 <pikhq> ATAPI, however, *is* tunneled over IDE.
22:18:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: The first IDE adapters were just cards with a port onto the ISA bus.
22:18:43 <invariable> elliott: yeah - I only saw a quote from that article. thanks for linking me to the original
22:18:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, no host controllers?
22:18:49 <elliott> invariable: YOU'RE WELCOME
22:18:51 <pikhq> Later enhancements basically just clocked it faster.
22:18:57 <elliott> Now why is GTK so terrible?
22:18:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, so modern IDE was like... high speed ISA with some crazy DMA stuff?
22:19:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, which sounds laughable
22:19:15 <pikhq> Which works just fine, because ISA actually has no fixed bus speed.
22:19:34 <pikhq> It originally used the CPU clock.
22:19:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, true, but why did we get PCI then instead of just boosting ISA?
22:19:52 <pikhq> They only fixed it because the clock speed got to be too high for the physical connectors.
22:20:28 <pikhq> And yes, modern IDE is high-speed ISA with DMA tacked on.
22:20:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, true, but why did we get PCI then instead of just boosting ISA?
22:20:37 <elliott> WHY IS IT SO TERRIBLE. WHY.
22:20:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: ISA sucks ass.
22:20:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, I see, but so does x86. Yet we still have it
22:21:17 <elliott> I see y'all don't feel my pain.
22:21:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... what?
22:21:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: The processors changed their system bus, so ISA was no longer the default.
22:21:42 <Vorpal> elliott, switch to 3G or something for now...
22:21:52 <elliott> Vorpal: not the net. i can deal with that.
22:21:56 <elliott> i'm complaining about gtk being terribly-designed
22:22:01 <elliott> I just want to bind ctrl+a and ctrl+e properly :(
22:22:05 <pikhq> Yes, ISA was literally the *system bus* for x86 processors.
22:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume you would have to subscribe to some sort of event?
22:22:31 <Vorpal> elliott, GUI stuff tends to be event-driven iirc
22:22:31 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:22:32 <pikhq> Rather than try and devise a higher-speed ISA, motherboard manufacturers just grabbed PCI parts off the shelf, and voila.
22:22:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, PCI existed before?
22:22:52 -!- elliott has joined.
22:22:58 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, I presume you would have to subscribe to some sort of event?
22:22:59 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, GUI stuff tends to be event-driven iirc
22:22:59 <Vorpal> + elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:22:59 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I presume you would have to subscribe to some sort of event?
22:23:01 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: I've already handled /that/, the point is how to do it to the text widget, which is ABSTRACTED TO ALL HELL.
22:23:04 <elliott> * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
22:23:19 <elliott> Vorpal: A GtkSourceView displays the contents of a GtkSourceBuffer which knows what language it is (for some reason).
22:23:27 <elliott> Vorpal: There are various GtkTextMarks or something in a SourceBuffer.
22:23:30 <elliott> That hold various positions.
22:23:37 <elliott> Including one for the cursor and one for the selection.
22:23:45 <elliott> Vorpal: To change a mark, you have to make a GtkTextIter from the GtkSourceBuffer,
22:23:55 <elliott> and then pass that to a method of the GtkSourceBuffer along with the GtkSomethingMark representing the cursor.
22:24:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: PCI was created as a CPU-agnostic bus standard in '93.
22:24:11 <elliott> And to top it all off, the TextIter API is TOTALLY UNINTUITIVE and I have NO IDEA how to just tell it to go to the start of the fucking line.
22:24:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, but the system bus stopped being PCI a long time ago
22:24:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, and went to be things like HT and what not
22:24:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: The system bus was never PCI.
22:24:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: PCI is an expansion bus.
22:24:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, FSB was the system bus for intel for a long time right?
22:25:11 <pikhq> Whereas ISA was literally a few lines drawn from the CPU socket.
22:25:19 <Vorpal> elliott, check what it does for other keys. Or what gedit and such does
22:25:55 <Deewiant> elliott: set_line(get_line())?
22:26:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I can't look at what it does for other keys, it'll be written in C.
22:26:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Are those actual methods or did you just make 'em up? :P
22:26:46 <Deewiant> I googled 'gtk textiter' and went to the first non-pygtk link and found those
22:26:54 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm using pygtk X-D
22:27:07 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan, why doesn't she just get a paperclip and push it into the reset hole? <-- because she has no idea that such a thing exists?
22:27:09 <Deewiant> Well, evidently pygtk has the same methods
22:27:13 <pikhq> Anyways, to get a clock speed faster than a few megahertz out of there, you would need to redo the physical attachment, and when you're doing that you may as well just grab a different bus.
22:27:16 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't think that actually sends you back though.
22:27:19 <elliott> You probably need set_line_index.
22:27:19 <Vorpal> elliott, did you actually try google...
22:27:30 <pikhq> Especially one being backed by a major company.
22:27:35 <pikhq> (PCI is Intel's handiwork)
22:27:39 <Vorpal> <elliott> You probably need set_line_index. <-- try it
22:27:42 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, and I need the same behaviour as home/end, i.e. skipping whitespace at start and finish... and I bet I'll have to hack up my own to get that working for Ctrl+a/Ctrl+e.
22:27:43 <Deewiant> elliott: "sets the textiter location to the start of the line", dude.
22:27:53 <elliott> Again, <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, and I need the same behaviour as home/end, i.e. skipping whitespace at start and finish... and I bet I'll have to hack up my own to get that working for Ctrl+a/Ctrl+e.
22:28:06 <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:28:25 <pikhq> And PCI itself got replaced because 33 or 66 MHz sucks.
22:28:27 <elliott> Deewiant: You will recall that my connection is fucked up beyond comprehension.
22:28:28 <Deewiant> elliott: If you need stuff like that, the only way I can tell is to manually run backward/forward a char at a time
22:28:29 <Vorpal> <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P <-- he does that a lot as I pointed out before
22:28:48 <pikhq> "Hooray", max speed of 533 MB/s.
22:29:18 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OMG IT IS SO GOOD
22:29:32 <Vorpal> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:29:38 <Gregor> What should I do next (I'm cycling through the single-flavorant sodas before mixing): Cinnamon, banana, or maple?
22:29:46 <pikhq> (133 MB/s on common equipment)
22:30:17 <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:30:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, hmm. Cinnamon would be... interesting, and I suspect it'd blend with anise respectably.
22:30:44 <Vorpal> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:30:44 <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:30:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I will add it back
22:30:49 <elliott> Even if it was an example of hypocrisy, this same conversation fits the same model:
22:31:03 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott: You're a rapist! [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Ouch, stop raping people.
22:31:19 <Vorpal> elliott, ... what? I don't think I said that.
22:32:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maple is awesome.
22:32:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, drink maple syrup!
22:32:40 <ais523> have I missed anything?
22:32:45 <Vorpal> I think it might be a bit gross though
22:32:47 <ais523> I haven't been paying attention
22:32:55 <Vorpal> ais523, a few hours of random stuff?
22:33:03 <Vorpal> ais523, also <Gregor> Anise soda: SO GOOD
22:33:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what...
22:33:43 <Vorpal> ais523, seems he made himself some soda
22:34:01 <Gregor> I'm leaning towards maple.
22:34:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I was little and I hadn't been forced to conform with normal standards of non-disgustingness.
22:34:07 <Gregor> Seems like it'd be a nifty cream soda.
22:34:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just the idea of vinegar...
22:34:40 <elliott> Gregor: ...maple cream soda sounds nice.
22:34:58 <elliott> Gregor: PUT ICE CREAM IN IT
22:35:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, vinegar not in some other food stuff sounds nasty
22:35:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and even vinegar in other foodstuff is rather nasty IMO
22:35:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, bacon & garlic soda
22:35:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, just garlic then
22:36:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't like salad with vinegar. I prefer salad without vinegar
22:36:19 <Gregor> How about liver and onions.
22:36:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what? because I hate liver?
22:36:55 <fizzie> Collected some egojoust statistics plots at http://zem.fi/~fis/egostats/ -- just the "global" ones, not per-participant or per-game ones -- and these are cranky results from a 5-programs-dropped hill, so the numbers might not make sense everywhere. (FFSPG gets a rather impressive 73.63 score here, at least partially due to the fact that careless, spookygoth and defend14, against which all it loses, aren't included.)
22:37:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what are you talking about
22:37:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, liver just tastes horrible.
22:37:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> VINEGAR IS ONLY A SINGLE OXIDATION REACTION AWAY FROM ALCOHOL I ABSTAIN FROM IT
22:37:10 <elliott> fizzie: Oh man it's so POLISHED.
22:37:21 <fizzie> elliott: It even has CSSSSS. (A few lines.)
22:37:21 <elliott> `addquote <Vorpal> VINEGAR IS ONLY A SINGLE OXIDATION REACTION AWAY FROM ALCOHOL I ABSTAIN FROM IT
22:37:22 <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> VINEGAR IS ONLY A SINGLE OXIDATION REACTION AWAY FROM ALCOHOL I ABSTAIN FROM IT
22:37:33 <Vorpal> also that number is off
22:37:41 <Vorpal> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:37:42 <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:37:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I will add that quote back
22:37:50 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: Vinegar soda // vinegar actually could be an ingredient in soda, you always need some acid.
22:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> NOTE: Vorpal does not understand that vinegar is in fact two oxidation reactions away from alcohol due to viewing chemistry as unhealthy.
22:38:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... I never disliked vinegar because of that
22:38:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I just hate the taste
22:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> As you could in theory make DRUGS from the things you learn there.
22:38:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and I don't remember how many oxidation states away it is
22:39:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you seem to have a very wrong picture of me. I have nothing against drugs in general. There are ones without the horrible side effects of alcohol.
22:39:24 <Vorpal> while I do not plan to try them myself currently
22:39:29 <Vorpal> (mostly due to legal issues)
22:39:35 <Vorpal> I have nothing against them in principle
22:39:36 <pikhq> THE HELL IS WITH MY CRAZY LATENCY RIGHT NOW?
22:39:47 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from pikhq: 1.10 second(s)
22:40:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, that's absurd.
22:40:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, 1.10 seems quite decent for irc
22:40:38 <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:40:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Stop being a shit. Srsly.
22:41:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm just checking that you didn't remove it
22:41:16 <Vorpal> elliott, and if it had been about me you would have found that thing hilarious :P
22:41:18 <elliott> It has come to my attention that you are engaging in the activity known as "being a shit"; immediate cessation of this activity is recommended to avoid progression onto shitheadedness, which follows shitness.
22:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you should maybe listen to your own advise sometimes.
22:41:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, + Ping reply from pikhq: 0.72 second(s)
22:41:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway this isn't to your irc server
22:42:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, whops, indeed
22:42:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, this is from me. In Europe.
22:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> When there are two forms, the one with 'c' is generally the noun and 's' the verb.
22:42:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, across irc servers. Not even direct route
22:42:35 <elliott> SORRY HA HA LET ME BLAME MY ILLITERACY ON THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE
22:42:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh. Didn't know that. Interesting.
22:42:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, useful to know. Thanks.
22:43:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, loads of native English speakers get that wrong.
22:43:19 <Vorpal> also, where did I blame it on that.
22:43:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's why we need to deport all the immigrants back to Africa.
22:43:39 <elliott> Two against one, isn't that, like, Democracy?
22:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because it is amusing as the later series of The Simpsons.
22:44:05 <elliott> What is it, a wolf and three sheep deciding what to have for dinner? I forget the quote.
22:44:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: <Vorpal> I HATE PUERILE HUMOUR AND THEREFORE DISLIKE ALL SERIES OF THE SIMPSONS EQUALLY
22:44:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> SINCE YOU EVIDENTLY HOLD THE EARLY SEASONS IN HIGH-REGARD, I CONCLUDE THAT THE LATER ONES ARE HILARIOUS TO YOU
22:44:50 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. I haven't got around to watching the series. So I can't make any statement about it
22:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Since Vorpal clearly thinks I have no sense of humour, /the quote cannot be funny/.
22:45:25 <Vorpal> elliott, also I believe it is you who are "being a shit" here.
22:45:38 <elliott> That is... the best logic ever.
22:46:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no, that logic fails. Because you are saying:
22:46:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, logical fallacy
22:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly if I think something *is* funny, it mustn't actually be funny, per the earlier definitions.
22:48:10 <elliott> "A democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding on what to have for
22:48:10 <elliott> lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the results of the
22:48:14 <elliott> So basically unless Vorpal shoots us...
22:48:34 <elliott> Both stone cold logic and Ben Franklin agree.
22:48:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how does that follow?
22:48:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because you are asserting you have humour
22:49:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but you are asserting I don't. Which means, if true, that I would be unable to judge if something is funny at all.
22:49:31 <elliott> Vorpal: You believe that PH has no sense of humour.
22:49:38 <elliott> Therefore, if PH thinks something is amusing, you think it is not.
22:49:50 <elliott> As has previously been demonstrated with the Simpsons logic, from your POV, PH thinks the quote is funny.
22:49:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe PH has a sense of humour, though different
22:50:01 <elliott> Therefore, the quote is not funny in your POV, and because your POV is the POV you are reasoning from, the quote is not funny.
22:50:15 <elliott> Any questions will be ignored as it has been demonstrated and explained with utmost precision, have a nice day.
22:50:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for your statement to be true I would have to have some sort of anti-humour. And then you could just take absolute value of what I say and it would be hilarious
22:50:42 <oerjan> i think there is a lot of anti-humor flying around here right now
22:50:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, I conclude you are right
22:51:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: That is still far too-high latency.
22:51:22 <Vorpal> anyway anti-humour is just another form of humour
22:51:31 <oerjan> of course. i am an expert on all the four humors.
22:51:37 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from Gregor: 0.55 second(s)
22:51:39 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from pikhq: 1.62 second(s)
22:51:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, which one is the fourth?
22:52:00 <pikhq> Order of magnitude too high.
22:52:25 <oerjan> that _would_ depend on which are the first three, i believe.
22:52:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, about 3 times too high?
22:52:47 <pikhq> YOU AND YOUR TRUTH
22:53:05 <Vorpal> to be fair, this is cross Atlantic and corss-IRC
22:53:15 <elliott> `addquote 317 <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:53:16 <HackEgo> 317) 317 <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:53:18 <Vorpal> I have no doubt it would be less if I used ping(8)
22:53:24 <elliott> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:53:27 <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:53:41 <Vorpal> elliott, interesting that you added it
22:53:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: The latency from the links themselves should add up to *maybe* 300ms.
22:54:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, you saw what I got to Gregor
22:54:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't know who else in here is in US
22:54:41 <EgoBot> Score for iconmaster_kinda_boring: 4.6
22:54:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:54:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, no ping reply from it
22:55:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh also I'm connected through ipv6 tunnel to freenode it seems
22:55:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, that would also explain a lot
22:56:14 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, sorry, I lied, I deleted it in /msg. You can readd it, I don't care.
22:58:06 <oerjan> and here i _thought_ elliott was trying to be diplomatic for once
22:58:15 <elliott> I am now, I don't care enough to bother.
22:58:21 <elliott> To be fair, Vorpal re-added it in /msg too.
22:58:49 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:58:49 <Vorpal> <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
22:58:57 <Vorpal> elliott, 2 seconds after each other
22:59:19 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:59:25 <elliott> It's probably a problem with the merging.
22:59:40 <Vorpal> you changed addquote binary
22:59:50 <Vorpal> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/ac438abc7950
22:59:54 <elliott> HAVE YOU FORGED CHANGES BY ME
23:00:34 <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
23:00:38 <oerjan> Vorpal: dammit _i_ was thinking of changing the addquote binary
23:00:55 <elliott> The great thing about anarchy is that you can do whatever you want. Also, the only thing about anarchy.
23:01:03 <HackEgo> 317) <Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P
23:01:46 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/egostats/plot_lenscore.png -- BIGGER == BETTER.
23:01:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" = "<Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P" ]; then \ echo $(wc -l quotes | cut -d' ' -f1 | dc -e '?1+p')") $1" \ else \ [
23:02:02 <elliott> Darn, that's the old broken version.
23:02:17 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" = "<Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P" ]; then \ echo $(wc -l quotes | cut -d' ' -f1 | dc -e '?1+p')") $1" \ else \ [
23:02:29 <elliott> It does not seem to want to go back to the proper version.
23:02:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" = "<Vorpal> elliott, hh:mm:ss <elliott> statement hh:mm:ss <Vorpal> question. hh:mm:ss+2 <elliott> statement repeated [LATER:] <Deewiant> elliott: Don't \"again\" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P" ]; then \ echo $(($(wc -l quotes | cut -d' ' -f1)+1))") $1" \ else \ [ "$1" ] ||
23:03:03 <oerjan> i find it hard to chastise elliott when i was thinking about doing the exact same thing.
23:03:38 <elliott> I wouldn't have bothered if the quote wasn't part of one of Vorpal's semi-regular "latch onto anything anyone says that could be in any way construed as anti-elliott and spam the channel with how right that is".
23:04:16 <iconmaster> !bfjoust bigger_does_not_mean_better (<)*10000(<)*10000
23:04:28 <Vorpal> elliott, it would help if you stopped being, as you put it yourself I believe, "a shit"
23:05:45 <oerjan> YES, SOME PROBLEMS HAVE TWO POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS AND THEREFORE NO ONE DOES EITHER OF THEM
23:06:36 <oerjan> yeah i should use it some time
23:08:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, slow as hell though
23:08:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, and hackego took ages to respond
23:08:26 <oerjan> clearly elliott inserted something that makes codu.org ignore Vorpal
23:08:34 <EgoBot> Score for iconmaster_bigger_does_not_mean_better: 0.0
23:09:08 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:09:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, codu is buggedly slow atm. As you can see
23:09:47 <elliott> <Vorpal> run sed '/elliott/d' -i quotesdefault tip
23:09:59 <Vorpal> elliott, you said you liked anarchy
23:10:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:10:05 <elliott> `run rm quotes; rm bin/*quote*
23:10:05 <Vorpal> elliott, so you got it
23:10:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I was trying to point out the stupidity of your actions by demonstrating your behaviour :)
23:12:06 <iconmaster> !bfjoust ill_assume_the_tape_is_ten_long (>)*10[+.]
23:12:08 <elliott> I wonder if Vorpal stirs up this kind of idiotic drama just to rile me up so that he can later use it as evidence of how immature I am.
23:12:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:12:35 <Deewiant> iconmaster: You're assuming 11, not 10
23:12:50 <iconmaster> !bfjoust ill_assume_the_tape_is_ten_long (>)*9[+.]
23:13:22 <iconmaster> I made silly little losing BFjoust programs for no real reason.
23:13:24 <oerjan> elliott: Vorpal ok, you have 30 minutes to get the quote system back into its state _before_ this ridiculous quarrel started before i ban you _both_
23:13:37 <fizzie> iconmaster: The graph's "size" measure would count (<)*10000(<)*10000 as size "6", actually.
23:13:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: Thank you for your bug report. It has been filed into /dev/null with all the others.
23:13:43 <elliott> I don't want the quote system back if it's just going to cause ridiculous drama like this.
23:13:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also: dear Christ, can't I leave you people alone for 10 minutes?
23:14:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, right. So you don't know what is causing it or?
23:14:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, I'm going to bed. Besides it was elliott who removed it. I'd revert the changes to the file though I made, but it seems it is no longer there.
23:14:54 <fizzie> Gregor: Guh, who put an underscore into your errno constant? That's so uncommon.
23:15:11 <Gregor> fizzie: It's not an errno constant, it's a bugzilla code.
23:16:17 <Vorpal> hm just checking back for a second
23:16:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, why, exactly, did you need that quote there?
23:16:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, as I said, I would undo it. But I don't want to cause drama by reverting elliott's last change. That one to remove the quotes.
23:16:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because I found it funny
23:17:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, but elliott has not applied it either.
23:18:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't care to look up "onus" atm, so I'll ask you to rewrite that
23:18:09 <elliott> "He started it! No, he started it!" -- Vorpal learns the rules of the playground.
23:18:15 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU ADDED THE QUOTE. IT IS STANDARD PRACTICE IN THESE SITUATIONS TO UNDO THE DISPUTED CHANGE UNTIL A RESOLUTION IS REACHED.
23:18:31 <elliott> I AM NOT SURE I AM AS MUCH OF A FAN OF CAPSLOCK NOW
23:18:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, standard practise where
23:19:00 <elliott> I map mine to cruise control.
23:19:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I map it the same way
23:19:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not that you do that often...
23:19:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's not a matter of the single quote any more. elliott removed the _entire_ quote system.
23:20:06 <elliott> oerjan: The entire quote system that I wrote :P
23:20:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, well that is *his* problem
23:20:23 <elliott> It can be put back in one damn command.
23:20:26 <EgoBot> Score for iconmaster_ill_assume_the_tape_is_ten_long: 4.9
23:20:26 <EgoBot> Score for iconmaster_ill_assume_the_tape_is_ten_long: 4.9
23:20:28 <elliott> I'm just not going to do it myself because Vorpal will start up again.
23:20:31 <Phantom_Hoover> But Vorpal is the one who has prolonged this when he was clearly in the wrong.
23:20:44 <Vorpal> I'm going to leave it to someone else
23:21:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "clearly"?
23:21:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, but you could easily do it yourself. I believe you want revision 53
23:21:51 <oerjan> <elliott> It can be put back in one damn command. <-- sure. but i don't know that command and cannot be bothered to learn it.
23:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you added the quote, which was a childish jibe at elliott. When asked to remove it, you repeatedly re-added it.
23:22:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, you want `revert 53
23:22:08 <oerjan> Vorpal: i made a decision.
23:22:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, that one being?
23:22:25 <elliott> oerjan: I was defusing a ridiculous situation; I'll leave the rest up to Gregor as he's the only one with any vague kind of authority wrt HackEgo.
23:22:29 <elliott> Have I mentioned that this is ridiculous?
23:22:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I agree that it is ridiculous
23:23:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the reverse happened in the past. And then I believe no one sided with the person wanting to remove it
23:24:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not suggesting that favouritism for elliott here... that would be far beyond me...
23:24:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean here as in this specific case? Perhaps.
23:25:22 <elliott> oerjan: nasty favouritist.
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23:25:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not a majority has said their opinion yet. So we are, as to speak in the dark.
23:25:28 <elliott> (Favouritist: A WORD? Experts disagree.)
23:25:41 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:25:58 -!- elliott has joined.
23:26:01 <Vorpal> I rather like "Did you mean: Favouritest" on googling "Favouritist".
23:26:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not with all those idlers no
23:27:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, _noöne except you thought that quote was funny._
23:27:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no one who voiced their opinion*
23:29:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you could explain *why* that statement isn't true
23:29:25 <elliott> vorpal is *still* bitching? sheesh. I left the channel for five minutes.
23:29:41 <Vorpal> elliott, no I'm not. I'm just replying to Phantom_Hoover's lines now
23:29:51 -!- elliott has left (?).
23:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It's possible, but you assume that anyone you actually argue with will be able to see its obvious truth.
23:30:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is because of how + is defined. We could define it in terms of incrementing
23:31:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, lets assume I'm no expert in whatever legal system you seem to be alluding to above in a few places
23:31:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, so you're honestly saying that you think that a minority overrides a majority if not everyone has voiced an opinion?
23:31:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no... I'm saying we do not have a quorum
23:32:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm waiting for your reply
23:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you wanted the quote there. elliott and I both wanted it gone. You *defer to majority opinion*.
23:33:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no quorum.
23:33:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, please reply to that
23:34:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, quorum can apply to non-parliament situations according to google define:
23:34:30 <Vorpal> "a gathering of the minimal number of members of an organization to conduct business"
23:34:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, though it may or may not apply here
23:35:19 -!- elliott has joined.
23:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, please sum up briefly why, exactly, a quorum is necessary here.
23:35:23 <elliott> Has he stopped blabbing yet?
23:35:30 <elliott> I don't even want to know.
23:35:31 -!- elliott has left (?).
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23:35:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it might not be. That is open to discussion.
23:35:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, night →
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23:37:12 <quintopia> my vote is that quote dbs exist in order to make people look bad. therefore, if it isn't funny, and it doesn't embarass someone, delete it.
23:37:25 <quintopia> that said, i do not know what quote we are talking about
23:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, also, do you have a QUORUM for demonstrating that you are asleep.
23:38:39 -!- elliott has joined.
23:38:59 <elliott> What was that about quorums? Did Vorpal form a nomic to decide whether the quote stays or not?
23:39:40 <quintopia> is it that whole hh:mm:ss quote? it's pretty not funny.
23:40:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Actual, serious (well, as serious as this idiocy can get) point: if there's not enough votes to decide, you go back to the previous state of things.
23:40:10 <elliott> quintopia: It was just added as part of Vorpal's semi-regular latch-on-to-anything-not-vaguely-positive-about-elliott-and-reply-with-extreme-agreement-because-elliott-sucks.
23:40:15 <Phantom_Hoover> So even by Vorpal's insane argument, he's *still* in the wrong.
23:40:23 <elliott> Vorpal goes on regular tirades of the sort for no apparent reason other than his being childish.
23:40:32 <elliott> (At least I have the excuse of age.)
23:40:43 <elliott> Now wait until that ping causes him to wake back up, run to his computer, and disagree.
23:40:47 <quintopia> yes. that is childish. there are better ways to make the point that you suck.
23:40:48 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Rather obviously the correct thing to do here is to obtain a ruling from the #esoteric arbitration board as to what sort of quote approval processes are acceptable.
23:40:49 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you are not helping.
23:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you don't have the ASTONISHING MATURITY of my perspective on things.
23:41:07 -!- j_ has joined.
23:41:24 <elliott> j_: what did you do to k and l?
23:41:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: possibly.
23:41:42 <j_> that ain't ehird is it
23:41:44 <iconmaster> I know! Let's compromise. We'll keep the first half of the quote and delete the latter half.
23:41:56 <fizzie> Also, catalysts! I've read those can lower the channel temperature.
23:42:11 -!- j_ has changed nick to jayCampbell.
23:42:11 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:42:28 -!- elliott has joined.
23:42:31 <quintopia> iconmaster: why don't we delete every other character. that way there are no arguments about whether we left out the "good part"
23:43:06 <iconmaster> Phanom_Hoover: Good idea. Lemme get the quote.
23:44:03 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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23:45:55 <iconmaster> <opl lit,h:ms elot ttmn hm:s<opl usin hm:s2<lit>saeetrpae LTR]<ewat lit:Dnt"gi"m hnIsn oehn ntesm eoda o o:P
23:46:36 <iconmaster> oerjan: Deleted every other character. As a compromise.
23:46:50 <ais523> not nomicing right now, as it happens
23:47:00 <ais523> but still following some, and I'll probably join one again in a bit
23:47:47 <ais523> I'm an admin there, so that would make sense
23:48:05 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:48:14 <elliott> What's the revert param again...
23:48:22 <ais523> what happened to `quote?
23:48:36 <jayCampbell> how would you describe a language without loops, that only runs data thru a large tree of logic gates
23:48:42 <HackEgo> 90) <Sgeo> I'd imagine that it already has, and no one noticed
23:48:59 <HackEgo> babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine \ quotes \ test \ test.c \ tmpdir.12609
23:49:12 <HackEgo> <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
23:49:24 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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23:50:03 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ [ "$1" ] || exit 1 \ printf "%s\n" "$1" >>quotes \ echo $(wc -l quotes | cut -d' ' -f1)") $1"
23:50:25 <quintopia> elliott: do you like cat bowling? http://senorgif.memebase.com/
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23:51:32 <oerjan> ais523: elliott and Vorpal happened.
23:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <jayCampbell> how would you describe a language without loops, that only runs data thru a large tree of logic gates
23:51:49 <ais523> yep, it could definitely be interesting
23:51:58 <ais523> but is going to be non-TC unless you enclose the whole program in a loop or something like that
23:52:04 <oerjan> the exact placement of blame being itself a part of the problem
23:52:07 <ais523> (and if it's just logic gates, that implies finite state so non-TC even if you do that)
23:52:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So Coq is uninteresting?
23:52:38 <quintopia> i think non-TC is the MOST INTERESTING
23:52:53 <quintopia> because everybody and their brother is TC
23:52:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: I RECOGNIZE THIS FACT
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23:53:24 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1010&t=18829
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23:54:00 <jayCampbell> non-tc is non-uninteresting if you have an infinitely large pile of virtual transistors
23:54:07 -!- elliott has joined.
23:54:09 <ais523> indeed, there's no reason everything has to be TC
23:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yes, I know. I may have expressed my irritation at people who think that good = TC before.
23:55:26 <quintopia> but what is your opinion of people who think that non-TC is good?
23:55:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I love how that thread got derailed by people talking about random esolangs
23:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well yeah, but impomatic hasn't come up onto my hatedar.
23:56:52 <elliott> lol @ writing a tutorial for an esolang
23:57:17 <ais523> my parents get annoyed at me not censoring "brainfuck"
23:58:36 <jayCampbell> i have designed most of the basic logic gates in minecraft using water instead of redstone
23:59:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Impossible :P
23:59:42 <jayCampbell> i've seen languages in run-once environments but can't remember any