00:00:43 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~)(:^)(::**)^^
00:00:43 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^
00:01:11 <oerjan> there you go, just adjust the church numeral at end. and change the ( )S to using newline if you like.
00:01:12 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:01:30 <Ilari> Also looks like so far the biggest value for 30-day sliding window allocations occured 10th this month: 25 086 464 (1.495 blocks)
00:01:38 <oerjan> oh and you can of course change the initial data as well
00:02:53 <elliott_> oerjan: bigger church numeral = moar longer?
00:03:24 <oerjan> yeah it's number of lines produced
00:03:43 <elliott_> oerjan: instant even with n=101 here :P
00:04:43 <elliott_> oerjan: possibly i should try another interp to compare :D
00:05:02 <Ilari> 20M per 30 days would deplete the pool in about 100 days (which would be in beginning of June, before the IPv6 day).
00:07:04 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
00:07:04 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
00:09:39 <elliott_> oerjan: oddly, derlo appears to do UTF-8
00:10:09 <oerjan> maybe it's for the underlambda part
00:10:11 <elliott_> hmm, maybe i'll adopt its model of one structure and just ignore the HORRIBLE HORRIBLE PADDING that'll imply
00:10:16 <elliott_> oerjan: the underlambda part does fuck all, AFAICT
00:10:22 <elliott_> it's identical to the underload part
00:10:53 <oerjan> <elliott> today i discovered the meaning of overengineering
00:11:06 <oerjan> i am not entirely sure of the tone of this comment :D
00:11:38 <elliott_> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^:: ^:^::*** glibc detected *** ./derlo: double free or corruption (fasttop): 0x0000000001409990 ***
00:11:53 <oerjan> WELL DO YOU THINK IT'S OVERENGINEERED, OR DO YOU THINK I WAS EXAGGERATING
00:13:26 <oerjan> elliott_: huh about that error
00:13:49 <oerjan> !underload (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~)(:^)(::**)^^
00:14:18 <oerjan> hm i guess if it crashes EgoBot may not tell
00:14:36 <elliott_> IIRC it says even when there's just no output
00:14:51 <elliott_> oerjan: or, it is just lagged.
00:15:02 <elliott_> Okaaaaaay, this array-based representation definitely won't work. But I'll stick with it FOR NOW
00:16:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:18:35 <oerjan> the look-and-say implementation could use large numerals (with a slight adjustment to the output routine), although 1,2,3 will of course end up dominating pretty soon
00:24:39 <elliott_> i'm pretty sure it has the capacity in its code to push a stack to the stack.
00:25:04 <oerjan> well that _would_ be useful for those continuations, wouldn't it
00:27:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:28:37 <oerjan> ^ul ((:*):*:*:*~^)::**((((:((0)(!(1)(!(2)(!(3)(!(4)(!(5)(!(6)(!(7)(!(8)(!(9)(!(X)(a:^*):^)))))))))(^))~*^^!S)(:a(~^)*~(()(~(~(:a~*):^))(a))~*^^)):^(()~)~**~^(:)~((a(~^)*~**)~a)~a(**~:((:)~(*)**)~a*~(^))**a(~*^^^!!^)***(~)~a(~a*^:)**a(:)**~^!!!a(~^)*~**)~a((, )S:^)**^):^
00:28:45 <pikhq> Wooops, seems that Gaddafi decided to do the one thing that could bring about US involvement.
00:28:57 <pikhq> He's sabotaging the oil in Libya.
00:29:04 <pikhq> And as you know, the oil must flow.
00:29:10 <elliott_> pikhq: what, did he insult obama's dress sense?
00:29:16 <elliott_> did he bore the translator to death?
00:29:26 <pikhq> elliott_: HE'S STOPPING THE OIL.
00:30:07 <pikhq> But the spice must flow!
00:30:23 <oerjan> ^ul ((:*):*:*:*~^)::**((((:((0)(!(1)(!(2)(!(3)(!(4)(!(5)(!(6)(!(7)(!(8)(!(9)(!(X)(a:^*):^))))))))))(^))~*^^!S)(:a(~^)*~(()(~(~(:a~*):^))(a))~*^^)):^(()~)~**~^(:)~((a(~^)*~**)~a)~a(**~:((:)~(*)**)~a*~(^))**a(~*^^^!!^)***(~)~a(~a*^:)**a(:)**~^!!!a(~^)*~**)~a((, )S:^)**^):^
00:30:24 <fungot> XXX, 3X, 131X, 1113111X, 3113311X ...out of time!
00:30:43 <oerjan> ^ul ((:*):*:*:*~^()~^)::**((((:((0)(!(1)(!(2)(!(3)(!(4)(!(5)(!(6)(!(7)(!(8)(!(9)(!(X)(a:^*):^))))))))))(^))~*^^!S)(:a(~^)*~(()(~(~(:a~*):^))(a))~*^^)):^(()~)~**~^(:)~((a(~^)*~**)~a)~a(**~:((:)~(*)**)~a*~(^))**a(~*^^^!!^)***(~)~a(~a*^:)**a(:)**~^!!!a(~^)*~**)~a((, )S:^)**^):^
00:30:44 <fungot> X1X1X1, 1X111X111X11, 111 ...out of time!
00:30:52 <pikhq> Aaand there goes the US dollar, I bet...
00:31:01 <pikhq> China is switching the yuan to the gold standard.
00:31:21 <oerjan> elliott_: there, look and say adjusted to start with (256)1(256)1(256)1
00:31:43 <oerjan> <pikhq> China is switching the yuan to the gold standard. <-- um seriously?
00:31:45 <elliott_> oerjan: does LAS actually do any arithmetic?
00:31:53 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, seriously.
00:31:54 <oerjan> elliott_: er perhaps not
00:32:10 <pikhq> oerjan: They are actually in the process of getting large quantities of gold to back the yuan.
00:33:08 <elliott_> "whoops, we bought too much gold and now we're bankrupt"
00:33:08 <Sgeo> Made my first edit to Wikipedia since a while ago
00:33:28 <pikhq> elliott_: Well, swapping USD for Au is probably not that hard.
00:34:29 * pikhq wonders about the wisdom of basing your currency on a foreign currency.
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00:39:07 <elliott_> hey oerjan if you don't write a haskell->c converter i'm going to guilt you SO MUCH
00:39:49 <oerjan> i'm sorry but _that_ sort of work repels guilt pretty effectively :D
00:40:44 <oerjan> also there were some people from glasgow who already did a bit of that, i hear
00:41:17 <elliott_> copumpkin: i mean something that ditches all the laziness and just translates it fairly directly so i don't have to do all this mechanical crap :p
00:41:21 <elliott_> i might try compiling this code with jhc though.
00:41:29 <elliott_> doubt jhc has reallyUnsafePointerEquality# though
00:41:52 <elliott_> where eq = I# (reallyUnsafePtrEquality# p q) == 1
00:42:02 <elliott_> (==) was a bit of a bottleneck beforehand. still is.
00:42:18 <elliott_> stop looking at me like that. i'm perfectly sane. probably.
00:42:30 <elliott_> toQ (Catn p q) = Quote (xs++ys) where Quote xs = toQ p; Quote ys = toQ q
00:42:42 <elliott_> ...when your Rept's n is over 65536, this can be a teensy bit slow.
00:43:03 <oerjan> AND THIS RABBIT THAT ONLY I CAN SEE AGREES
00:43:07 <elliott_> copumpkin: how is what even valid syntax?
00:43:32 <elliott_> that's pattern matching, you dolt
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00:43:46 <copumpkin> where Quote xs = toQ p; Quote ys = toQ q
00:43:49 <elliott_> that's pattern matching, you dolt
00:44:03 <copumpkin> Quote would have to be a constructor o.O
00:44:57 <elliott_> What exactly is giving you problems here?
00:45:09 <elliott_> Obj is my own data type, if that helps...
00:45:34 <copumpkin> if you write "where f pat1 pat2 = expr"
00:45:40 <copumpkin> f must be lowercase, because it's a function, not a constructor
00:45:50 <elliott_> copumpkin: "where x:xs = f x y"
00:46:07 <elliott_> copumpkin: welcome to: you are wrong, population: you
00:46:23 <elliott_> sheesh oerjan, you write half of the haskell report and then these upstart #haskell ops go shit all over it, how does that make you feel? :(
00:46:25 <oerjan> elliott_: oh don't be so harsh on him, there are many more people there
00:46:42 <elliott_> copumpkin: heh. does using agda make you forget that you can do things without default cases? :D
00:46:56 <elliott_> i'm sooo tempted to hpaste this and link it in #hakell
00:47:33 <oerjan> copumpkin: strictly speaking Quote is not the only constructor of Obj but toQ is obviously designed to only return results using that one
00:48:20 <elliott_> oerjan: yeah toQ should arguably return [Op]
00:48:27 <elliott_> i didn't realise it always would when i first wrote it
00:49:20 <elliott_> yes ghc, warm my lap as you compile your enemy!
00:50:15 <elliott_> copumpkin: if it absolves me of my unsafe sins, i don't even use unsafeCoerce anywhere
00:50:56 <copumpkin> unsafePtrEquality is often going to be false though, even when it should be true
00:51:13 <copumpkin> I guess it doesn't quite work for yhou
00:51:27 <elliott_> i.e. it just doesn't bother checking if p definitely equals q
00:51:55 <elliott_> copumpkin: I would argue that this should be a "standard" GHC optimisation, but if some fool defines "_ == _ = False" then it'd change semantics...
00:52:48 <elliott_> What, jhc doesn't support bang patterns?
00:55:45 <elliott_> copumpkin: But, but, it's all OMG PERFORMANCE.
00:56:11 <elliott_> copumpkin: Do I sense a SCEPTIC.
01:05:12 <Sgeo> I'm almost tempted to learn Clojure
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01:07:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Insufficiently pure.
01:07:14 <pikhq> There is only lambda!
01:10:26 <elliott_> Lymia: Java. Community is idiotic. Meh.
01:11:08 <Lymia> elliott_, Closure community can't be worse that your typical Lisp-like community... right?
01:11:27 <elliott_> Because idiots see it and think "OOH JAVA LIBRARIES" and latch on to it.
01:11:46 <Lymia> Can't say that isn't useful
01:11:55 <elliott_> Lymia: Their IRC channel have argued that O(log_32 n) != O(log n), or something of the sort, I forget what. Arguments included "WELL IT'S NOT TRUE IN THEORY, BUT IT IS WHEN RUN ON A MACHINE".
01:12:09 <elliott_> I suspect that computer science may be doomed.
01:12:12 <Sgeo> I'm thinking "Ooh, that criticism of Racket that I saw in Racket vs Clojure makes sense, and I like the idea of STM, and I like immutability stuff"
01:12:31 <elliott_> Anyway we shouldn't be encouraging Sgeo's weekly language fetish with discussion.
01:12:52 <Lymia> elliott_, I'm not even in college yet, so... can't exactly say much about that subject.
01:12:57 <Lymia> I assume in theory it's not?
01:13:10 <elliott_> Lymia: It plain isn't. (And I'm not in university either.)
01:13:13 <Sgeo> Community sucking != language sucking
01:13:15 <elliott_> O(kn) = O(n) if k is constant.
01:13:21 <elliott_> log_32 n = base 32 logarithm of n
01:13:30 <Sgeo> O(log_32 n) = O(log n / log 32...darn you
01:13:39 <Lymia> And 1/log(32) is a constant.
01:13:40 <elliott_> Since 1/log(32) is constant, O(1/log(32) * log(n)) = O(log n) and therefore O(log_32 n) = O(log n).
01:13:55 <elliott_> Theory vs. practice does not even begin to come into it; big-O notation Does Not Work That Way.
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01:14:19 <elliott_> And since Clojure is one of the purer and more functional of the Lisps (ostensibly) you'd expect their understanding of computer science to be a bit better.
01:14:32 <elliott_> (Ignorance is perfectly acceptable, but being sure about something that's blatantly incorrect isn't.)
01:14:39 <pikhq> ... O() notation is entirely theoretical. Jeebus.
01:14:42 <Lymia> It integrates with Java's libraries, and it's considered one of the purer Lisps?
01:14:57 <elliott_> Lymia: Well, it's concurrency-oriented, and its most common data structures are immutable.
01:15:15 <elliott_> The language itself is not entirely without merit, but JVM languages don't interest me in the slightly.
01:15:58 <oerjan> <elliott_> copumpkin: But, but, it's all OMG PERFORMANCE. <-- um bang patterns are entirely syntactic sugar
01:16:10 <elliott_> oerjan: But people who are OMG PERFORMANCE will USE BANG PATTERNS!
01:16:23 <elliott_> (Bang patterns: porn with OCD.)
01:16:52 <elliott_> Someone remind me to name my next esolang Ejuzarih.
01:16:57 <elliott_> Maybe I'll call my lazy concatenative language that.
01:18:06 <oerjan> <elliott_> Lymia: Their IRC channel have argued that O(log_32 n) != O(log n), or something of the sort, I forget what. <-- reminds me of some quote to the effect that O(log log n) is constant time (implying, in practice)
01:18:25 <elliott_> oerjan: Maybe if their tongues were firmly in their cheeks I'd forgive them :P
01:19:21 <Lymia> O(1) is much slower than O(n!) for large enough values of O.
01:20:11 <elliott_> Lymia: (Anyway, it doesn't take a university education to understand big O notation; for time, O(...) simply means: calculating f(x) takes time proportional to k*... for some k.)
01:20:14 <elliott_> Err, that's a bit awkwardly worded.
01:20:30 <elliott_> Well, that's all there is to it.
01:20:36 <Lymia> I know the general idea, just not the details.
01:20:50 <Lymia> Plus, I'm not in much of a thinking mood today, so...
01:21:02 <Lymia> (Blame me waking up at 8AM after going to bed at 3AM)
01:21:02 <elliott_> PSHT THEN WHY ARE YOU IN #ESOTERIC, THE MOST INTELLECTUAL CHANNEL ON ALL IRC
01:21:29 * Lymia puts elliott_ in a frilly dress~
01:21:40 <elliott_> THAT IS NOT SUITABLE ACCOMPANIMENT TO A TOP HAT
01:22:25 <Lymia> Frilly dresses go with everything
01:25:54 <Sgeo> Just because some Clojure people are idiots doesn't mean they all are
01:26:16 <Sgeo> The only criticism I know of against the language itself is that it's not Lisp all the way down
01:26:31 <Sgeo> Oh, and no TCO partly due to that
01:26:37 <Sgeo> Which sucks major suckage
01:28:47 <Lymia> Sgeo, recursion resulting a stack overflow?
01:30:21 <elliott_> oerjan: hm I think my impl is quite unique among underload interpreters as distinguishing between code and data sort of
01:30:27 <elliott_> except that code pushes data which will later be treat as code :)
01:30:45 <Sgeo> <***someone***> Sgeo: in the mean time there are solid tools to write tail-call style code, and it performs at least as well as Racket (which isn't slow) as far I can tell.
01:31:14 <elliott_> hmm, 28 bytes per object...might be acceptable
01:33:27 <Lymia> Write an underload interpreter in Underload.
01:33:30 <Lymia> Without the eval operator.
01:33:49 <elliott_> Lymia: Every program in Underload uses the eval operator.
01:34:00 <Lymia> Without running eval on the input?
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01:45:44 <elliott_> r->t=CHURCH; r->i=p->i*q->i; r->p=cat(p->p,q->p);
01:45:55 <elliott_> I REFUSE TO LET THIS PROGRAM BE 100X LONGER THAN THE EQUIVALENT HASKELL
01:48:53 <elliott_> oerjan: hm i'm not going to get very good structure sharing if (a)(b)* duplicates a, am i...
01:49:00 <elliott_> oh wait, it will end up duplicating b, as well
01:55:45 * variable is writing a Piet interpreter in python
01:56:35 <elliott_> OK, derlo is utterly incomprehensible
01:56:58 <elliott_> oerjan: i don't think derlo does structure sharing. well it does. but how can it...
01:57:17 <elliott_> afaict, (a)(X):(*)dip(y)* should make the (aX) become (AXy)
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02:11:08 <Gregor> Deewiant: Hm ... is allegro also a train?
02:11:47 <Gregor> I actually looked up pendolino, but with allegro I assumed you'd dropped the train vibe and went with tempos (or more broadly musical terms) instead for some reason :P
02:12:22 <Deewiant> Yes, I was a bit hesitant about the name for that reason :-P
02:14:26 <elliott_> I can't wait until Deewiant has to start trainspotting to come up with new names
02:14:41 <pikhq_> So, I apparently have free Amazon instant streaming.
02:15:22 <pikhq_> (because I have free Amazon Prime)
02:15:51 <elliott_> ...I could use catn for the stack... NO, elliott, bad elliott.
02:16:44 <pikhq_> If only it offered anything over Netflix, which I have *effectively* for free, as well.
02:17:50 <pikhq_> Ah well. More of this "viable business model for video" thing.
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02:21:43 <oerjan> <elliott_> oerjan: i don't think derlo does structure sharing. well it does. but how can it... <-- maybe it just shares quoted elements, that might help too
02:24:24 <oerjan> <<elliott_> afaict, (a)(X):(*)dip(y)* should make the (aX) become (AXy) <-- no, it would afaict make (aX)(Xy)
02:25:42 <oerjan> um i mean the program produces (aX)(Xy), so obviously there should be no (aXy) there
02:26:16 <elliott_> oerjan: it was how i decided that derlo can't do proper structure sharing
02:26:31 <elliott_> oerjan: because if it did it would produce that
02:26:54 * oerjan has no idea what elliott_ is talking about
02:27:12 <elliott_> oerjan: wtf is hard to understand about this?!?!
02:27:15 <elliott_> I looked at derlo's structures
02:27:19 <elliott_> if it did full structure sharing
02:27:26 <oerjan> elliott_: for the former, i mean if it concatenates ((a)b) and (c) then it might not share the top level of ((a)bc) but the (a) would still be shared
02:27:31 <elliott_> would have the INCORRECT BEHAVIOUR
02:27:43 <elliott_> oerjan: right, so the (a) would be shared
02:27:50 <elliott_> would affect the other (a) too
02:28:29 <oerjan> elliott_: well you obviously cannot do proper structure sharing if all your list are arrays of each element in it
02:28:49 <elliott_> oerjan: I have no idea what you are talking about
02:28:50 <oerjan> elliott_: what is derlo's structure anyway
02:29:05 <elliott_> int_least32_t val; /* character, or a special value if negative */
02:29:05 <elliott_> size_t refcount; /* reference count from inner, next, or globals */
02:29:13 <elliott_> if ->inner=x, and x is also on the stack, and you set x->next
02:29:21 <elliott_> then ->inner->next will be set too
02:29:26 <elliott_> of some random element containing x
02:30:35 <oerjan> anyway structure sharing is obviously incompatible with mutation
02:30:45 <elliott_> <elliott_> typedef struct tag_el {
02:30:45 <elliott_> <elliott_> int_least32_t val; /* character, or a special value if negative */
02:30:45 <elliott_> <elliott_> size_t refcount; /* reference count from inner, next, or globals */
02:31:00 <elliott_> <elliott_> typedef struct tag_el {
02:31:02 <elliott_> <elliott_> int_least32_t val; /* character, or a special value if negative */
02:31:04 <elliott_> <elliott_> size_t refcount; /* reference count from inner, next, or globals */
02:31:06 <elliott_> <elliott_> /* this counts the number of locations referencing, even if they're
02:31:07 <elliott_> <elliott_> referenced multiple times themselves they only count as 1 */
02:31:09 <elliott_> <elliott_> struct tag_el* next; /* the element after this one */
02:31:12 <elliott_> <elliott_> struct tag_el* inner; /* the element inside this one, if val is negative */
02:31:16 <elliott_> <elliott_> if ->inner=x, and x is also on the stack, and you set x->next
02:31:18 <elliott_> <elliott_> then ->inner->next will be set too
02:31:19 <elliott_> <elliott_> of some random element containing x
02:31:25 <elliott_> oerjan: but the point is that mutation is what derlo does
02:31:37 <oerjan> elliott_: yeah i guessed
02:31:42 <elliott_> /* Tailcat optimisation: if nothing else is using the stack
02:31:42 <elliott_> element we're catting to, just change its next pointer to do
02:32:08 <elliott_> oerjan: what i'm trying to say is, fuck derlo is twisty.
02:32:49 <oerjan> ok so it does structure sharing only with unique values
02:33:39 <elliott_> oerjan: btw have i rambled to you yet about my idea for a lazy concatenative language
02:33:55 <elliott_> oerjan: that's a no then. may I? :-P
02:35:00 <oerjan> i mean i vaguely recall something about someone mentioning evaluating a concatenative language like that
02:35:15 <oerjan> that's evaluation from the end, naturally
02:35:24 <elliott_> oerjan: oh, that was me about underload
02:35:31 <elliott_> yeah, i'm talking about left-to-right, normal style
02:35:41 <elliott_> oerjan: it's really quite simple -- we make the language typed like Cat, so the stack effect of any word is known
02:35:52 <elliott_> now consider a word "foo" taking two params and pushing one
02:36:04 <elliott_> now this trace, with "stack|prog":
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02:36:50 <elliott_> oerjan: basically you gobble up the top N stack elements into a quotation, put the word in, and then mark the result number of stack elements with the sufficient number of placeholders
02:36:53 <oerjan> ah if you have typed stack effects you can sometimes look at other stack elements without evaluating an intervening program
02:37:13 <elliott_> obviously, looking inside that 2 wide will turn it into e.g.
02:37:31 <elliott_> (if we say that foo is "put both args into infinite lists")
02:37:50 <oerjan> hm there might even be a way to do this without types
02:38:11 <elliott_> oerjan: well if you can determine how many pops and pushes a word does (in sum, that is) without evaluating it then sure
02:38:14 <oerjan> if foo returned a promise to the stack instead of evaluating completely
02:38:19 <elliott_> oerjan: basically i want to make a purely-functional, lazy concatenative language
02:38:23 <elliott_> to show that it can be as elegant as haskell
02:38:24 <oerjan> a promise of an element
02:38:45 <elliott_> oerjan: but that's basically manual types and laziness
02:38:55 <elliott_> which also serves as the lazy value
02:39:54 <elliott_> hmm my "a" is a bit heavy-weight
02:40:27 <elliott_> x -> {type=QUOTE, p={{type=PUSH, value=x}}}
02:40:42 <elliott_> i wonder if I could benefit from an "enclose" object type
02:40:57 <elliott_> I'd try it, except that it won't work for parsed programs
02:41:01 <elliott_> well i could maybe make it work.
02:43:22 <elliott_> /* Tailcat optimisation on the call stack; replace the return at
02:43:22 <elliott_> the end of the called code with a goto, as long as it isn't
02:43:36 <elliott_> oerjan: heh derlo is a bit insane...
02:43:42 <elliott_> oerjan: it seems it actually optimises that for /later/ as well as now
02:43:58 <elliott_> ^ actually cats the program rather than recursing
02:47:20 <elliott_> oerjan: I think relief-in-C is shaping up quite well; I'm dreading porting your church function though
02:51:17 <elliott_> oerjan: can i get a grant for this research
02:54:29 <oerjan> i assume you understand the general idea of what church' does
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03:00:40 <elliott_> oerjan: may i just say that i am NOT thrilled at the idea of having to use bignums in c
03:00:59 <elliott_> shit, i swear to god, this is the one program that would be more convenient in C++ than C
03:01:37 <elliott_> Gregor: No, seriously, it would be
03:02:05 <elliott_> Gregor: I have what is EXACTLY a subtyping relationship of a few structs (that I am currently wasting memory and mushing together by making them one struct and reappropriating one field for various things).
03:02:12 <Gregor> If you do use C++, you should use WTF instead of STL.
03:02:19 <elliott_> Gregor: I have a requirement to use bignums, and of course operator overloading would help.
03:02:30 <elliott_> I have functions that have wildly different behaviour depending on the type field of their arguments.
03:02:41 <elliott_> OK, so really what it's suited for is Haskell.
03:02:47 <elliott_> But I'm trying to micro-optimise here :P
03:03:48 <elliott_> Gregor: Is WTF actually a thing.
03:04:09 <Gregor> elliott_: WTF is the Webkit Template Framework
03:04:12 <elliott_> Hmm, theory: People who don't know C++ are better C++ programmers than C++ programmers.
03:04:23 <elliott_> Because, man... C++ is terrible.
03:10:52 <pikhq_> elliott_: Exception, Our Lord Oleg.
03:11:08 <pikhq_> But, well, Oleg is better than you.
03:12:00 <elliott_> oerjan: erm wait what's the cat formula for (a)(b)^ church numerals again
03:12:08 <Sgeo> MY POOR USELESS EYES
03:12:09 <Sgeo> http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/
03:12:30 <pikhq_> THE GOGGLES, THEY DO NOTHING
03:14:14 * Sgeo sads at elliott_ ignorage
03:14:40 <pikhq_> elliott_: Sgeo linkage.
03:15:06 <pikhq_> elliott_: Nothing NSFW or eye-bleachy, just a painful color scheme.
03:15:08 <Gregor> That page would be totally unoffensive if the text was in a box with a solid background, and the weird background was behind that.
03:15:29 <elliott_> for(size_t i=0; i<o->i; i++) y->i *= x->i;
03:15:39 <elliott_> call (Church n p) !(Church m q : xs) = return (Church (m^n) (Rept n q) : xs)
03:15:49 <elliott_> oh and the haskell does bignums too obviously. because haskell is a real language
03:16:14 <elliott_> not a pdp assembler with an identity crisis after a sex - sorry, syntax change
03:16:30 <elliott_> So the text isn't particularly readable.
03:16:50 <elliott_> Sgeo: Goo hasn't been updated since 2005. (gotta keep Sgeo away from all the intelligent languages)
03:17:06 <pikhq_> You'd fucking *love* Japanese websites, then.
03:17:06 <elliott_> you make such horrible statements!
03:17:58 <pikhq_> Seriously, I'm convinced the Japanese forget about graphic design when they get on the Internet.
03:18:37 <pikhq_> Maybe it has something to do with how Japanese Geocities still exists?
03:19:23 <Ilari> Hmm. Wonder how many addresses has China allocated in last year (365 days)?
03:19:48 <pikhq_> Yes, geocities.co.jp exists *and* is reasonably well-used.
03:20:58 <elliott_> relief.c:202: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘}’ token
03:22:06 <pikhq_> Offering a whole *fifty megabytes* of hosting space.
03:22:21 <pikhq_> (1GB for ¥525 a month)
03:23:20 <Ilari> 64 850 688 (3.865 blocks).
03:24:54 <Ilari> On IPv6 front: 22 020 098 /48s.
03:28:35 <Ilari> All-time grand total for China: IPv4: 300 715 776 IPv6: 26 411 013
03:33:35 <elliott_> oerjan: i bet when i finish with this
03:33:38 <elliott_> oerjan: i'll tell ais and he'll be all
03:33:48 <elliott_> oh yeah i wrote a version of derlo that optimised church numerals a few months ago
03:33:58 <elliott_> and shares every fuckin' structure
03:34:31 <oerjan> THAT'S WHEN WE BAN HIM
03:35:02 <oerjan> unless he promises never to mention anything he wrote unless he includes a working URL
03:36:26 <elliott_> "shit he has fifty terabyte disks here"
03:36:31 <elliott_> "Wtf are they filled with, porn?"
03:36:35 <elliott_> "no... code and language specs"
03:36:51 <oerjan> and a P=NP proof he'd forgotten all about
03:37:25 <oerjan> (yes ais523's demise will cause the DEATH of the internet)
03:41:22 <elliott_> are you the reason gcc hates me?
03:44:45 <elliott_> oerjan: well I _do_ know that ais has an underlambda implementation.
03:45:10 <elliott_> maybe he _does_ have a proof that p=np
03:47:05 * oerjan thinks ais523 writes a _teeny_ bit verbosely
03:47:32 <elliott_> oerjan: why do you mention that? is it "SPILL THE BEANS ABOUT YOUR AIS523-RELATED FEELINGS" day? :P
03:47:46 <oerjan> because i'm reading the Checkout page
03:48:12 <elliott_> oerjan: the trick with ais' text
03:48:23 <oerjan> it's large enough that i almost tl;dr
03:48:26 <pikhq_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kraftparmesan.jpg Am I the only one somewhat disturbed by this shit?
03:48:27 <elliott_> or if they seem quite long, skip every other sentence
03:48:46 <elliott_> if the sentences are TRULY GIGANTIC, skip half of every sentence, and skip one whole sentence for every 3 sentences
03:49:09 <oerjan> elliott_: well i'm trying to proofread a little simultaneously
03:49:24 <pikhq_> Yes? Okay. Everyone else loves processed psuedofood.
03:49:42 <elliott_> You and Ilari -> ##nutrition :P
03:50:02 <elliott_> "RULES: Stay on topic. No idling >60d."
03:50:03 <pikhq_> elliott_: I'm not even a nutrition nut, I just want my food to not taste like shit!
03:50:08 <elliott_> You're not allowed to idle for more than 60 days?
03:50:25 <Ilari> Global RIR-allocated IPv6 space: 9 622 829 006
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03:51:22 <pikhq_> No, it's pence. You're not allowed to idle for more than 60 pence.
03:52:15 <Ilari> pikhq_: Well, food tasting good and being nutrious tend to go together (wonder why?).
03:52:37 <elliott_> that's only necessarily true if you live like a caveman
03:52:54 <pikhq_> Ilari: Well, yes, there is that *tendency*.
03:53:54 <pikhq_> At least in that processed shit-food tastes much worse than the real stuff, and the real stuff does tend to be better for you.
03:54:02 <Ilari> Of course, the normal processed stuff is pumped full of sugar.
03:54:20 <Ilari> Well, salt is much less harmful.
03:54:39 <pikhq_> Course, absurd amounts of salt have been a feature of human diets as long as we've been able to do that on a regular basis.
03:55:24 <pikhq_> I mean, shit, freaking applying enough salt to cause bacteria to die from osmosis was once one of the major meat preservation methods.
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03:58:00 <Ilari> The dangers of sugar are commonly understated and the dangers of salt are commonly overstated.
03:58:30 <elliott_> Ilari still hasn't responded with the current RIR depletion stats!
03:58:56 <pikhq_> Ilari: Yeah, but both sugar and salt are freaking all over the place in factory food.
03:59:32 <pikhq_> Significantly more-so than any sanity would allow for.
04:00:29 <pikhq_> On the other hand... WHY THE FUCK DOES FREAKING BREAD HAVE CORN SYRUP IN IT. GOD.
04:00:33 <Ilari> Oh, and don't forget seed oils (at least screwed up with too much heat).
04:01:34 <pikhq_> ... Man. It has corn syrup in it but it's blander than anything else. That's worrisome.
04:02:26 <pikhq_> How the hell do they even make bread flavorless, anyways?
04:02:27 <Ilari> If not screwed up more by hardening it.
04:02:50 <pikhq_> You can literally bake a mix of water and flour and it'll have more flavor.
04:03:16 <pikhq_> Course, you then have hardtack, but hey.
04:03:47 <elliott_> okay right it is time for me to become unconscious \o/
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04:04:48 <Ilari> As to why it has corn syrup: It is so bad-tasting otherwise that it wouldn't sell? Or trying to make people consume more of it?
04:06:13 <pikhq_> Or maybe they just want it to rise faster.
04:08:30 <Ilari> BTW: The real corn syrup doesn't have fructose in it. It only gets fructose by enzymatic action.
04:08:39 <pikhq_> Well, high fructose corn syrup is, ah, high in fructose.
04:08:53 <pikhq_> Not to mention that the rest of it is glucose.
04:09:43 <Ilari> The amount of fructose by weight in HFCS varies something like 45-90%, usually being about 55-60%
04:09:46 <pikhq_> Ilari: The real corn syrup itself is a chemical product...
04:11:17 <pikhq_> Originally HCl, now a bunch of enzymes.
04:11:34 <Ilari> Well, it is mostly glucose and water. Plus a bunch of impurities.
04:16:33 <Ilari> HCl isn't very "fun" on the scale of chemicals used in producing "food". There's stuff like Hexane (from gasoline!) and Sodum Hydroxide (NaOH) used in producing seed oils.
04:17:36 <pikhq_> Lye isn't *too* weird in food production, y'know.
04:17:47 <pikhq_> Oh, fuck, never mind. :P
04:18:29 <Ilari> Actually, that isn't the only food that involves lye when cooking.
04:18:46 <pikhq_> I know, just the most notorious.
04:18:56 <Ilari> Apparently cooking with lye improves the mineral profile of at least some foods.
04:18:58 <pikhq_> What with it *actually being caustic* and all.
04:22:01 <oerjan> while "readonlyly" looks barely possible as an adverb, allowing it to stay would make it only about the 9th google hit so i assume it's a typo for "readonly".
04:23:51 <pikhq_> That's... Not adverby.
04:24:12 <pikhq_> I'm not entirely sure what would be an adverbial form of that, actually.
04:24:14 <oerjan> well it's a sort of adjective with -ly appended
04:24:35 <oerjan> it's just that the adjective already ends in -ly
04:24:40 <pikhq_> I could make it into an adverb in Japanese, but that's trivial.
04:25:50 <oerjan> i guess the "DESU" might be wrong XD
04:25:52 <pikhq_> "Riidonri-teki ni" desu.
04:26:41 <pikhq_> ("n" is the *only* mora in Japanese without a vowel)
04:28:44 <pikhq_> Also, I only just now had the connection that the term "adverb" applies to Japanese at all. XD
04:29:07 <pikhq_> "... Wait, that actually... Is an adverb. Hmm. Hooray, not-formally-learned grammar."
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05:18:52 <Ilari> Potaroo says that globally there are 443 137 736 free IPv4 addresses (337 665 542 193 free IPv6 in RIR pools, plus 34 837 083 717 632 in IANA pool).
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05:25:32 <Ilari> Err. IPv4Depletion says 29 558 976 IPv4 addresses allocated in last 30 days. Compare this with earlier figure of 20 719 616 for APNIC last 30 days.
05:26:23 <Ilari> That would be APNIC allocating over 2/3 of the IP space.
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05:32:23 <coppro> uh, isn't IANA's pool empty?
05:32:45 <Ilari> IPv4 IANA pool is. IPv6 IANA pool is at 99%.
05:33:34 <coppro> pikhq_: wait, in Japanese, n is actually a mora? I thought it was just a modifier to another mora
05:35:18 <pikhq_> coppro: No, it's a mora.
05:35:57 <oerjan> um i vaguely recall, aren't geminated consonants moras too
05:36:18 <pikhq_> Yes, gemination is also a mora.
05:36:49 <pikhq_> coppro: Also, slightly random, but: y'know the whole haiku syllable pattern thing?
05:36:53 <pikhq_> That's entirely wrong.
05:37:04 <pikhq_> Haiku has 5 morae/7 morae/5 morae.
05:37:17 <pikhq_> Not syllables. Japanese doesn't give a fuck about syllables.
05:38:27 <pikhq_> Probably because the pronunciation of Japanese is such that each mora is pronounced with roughly equal timing.
05:41:00 <Ilari> This month (according to latest data, IPv4/IPv6): AfriNIC: 12 800 / 393 218 LACNIC: 210 688 / 1 703 936 RIPE: 3 183 888 / 33 161 254 ARIN: 5 235 456 / 21 694 831 APNIC: 11 642 880 / 3 670 029 Total: 20 285 712 / 60 623 268.
05:42:45 <pikhq_> Huh, APNIC is the only RIR to not allocate more IPv6 (/48s?) than IPv4 addresses.
05:43:15 <Ilari> Well, RIPE and ARIN both gave out a nice /24 (most likely to some NIR/LIR).
05:44:03 <Ilari> Couple /32s (ISPs likely) plus /47(?)
05:44:22 <oerjan> well the north african countries are busy shutting down the internet, aren't they >:)
05:45:45 <pikhq_> Ilari: A /47 could be a single entity that's multihomed, I guess.
05:46:08 <pikhq_> (and so has an AS number, and so can actually get allocations personally)
05:46:13 <Ilari> LACNIC: 1x/28 (larger ISP?) plus 10x/32 (ISPs?)
05:48:58 <Ilari> The IPv4Depletion large alloc list: apnic, arin, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, apnic, ripencc, apnic, apnic, apnic, arin, ripencc, ripencc, ripencc
06:00:02 <Ilari> Allocation entry counts: AfriNIC: 8/7, LACNIC: 8/11, RIPE: 453/217, ARIN: 128/121, APNIC: 130/58, Total: 727/414.
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09:06:12 <Ilari> Long-term growth rate of APNIC allocations seems to be about 19% per year.
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12:54:23 <oerjan> i think i have an idea for :()^!a TC-ness as well
12:56:30 <oerjan> basically use a instead of ~ in the turing machine construction for getting information into the left part of the tape
12:57:15 <ais523> hmm, is it usual for a language to have this many different minimizations?
12:57:44 <oerjan> well given enough instructions, probably
12:57:49 <ais523> elliott already proved that () can be omitted so long as you have some other command for producing stack elements containing arbitrary commands
12:59:28 <oerjan> anyway we so far seem to have :()^~, :()^a*, and :()^!a as minimal known TC subsets (although none of them proven to be minimal)
13:01:00 <oerjan> also i believe :()^! is at the minimum a general deterministic pushdown automaton
13:01:35 <ais523> does being nondeterministic add to the power of PDAs?
13:02:02 <ais523> what about one-counter Minsky machines?
13:02:19 <oerjan> nondeterministic gives context-free language recognition, deterministic only LR(1)
13:02:46 <oerjan> don't know about minsky machines
13:03:06 <ais523> I'd imagine it would be LR(n) for arbitrary finite n, at least
13:03:18 <ais523> because you can clearly just add extra states to read more than one character ahead
13:03:23 <oerjan> any language with an LR(n) grammar also has an LR(1) one
13:03:32 <ais523> hmm, I didn't know that
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13:03:42 <ais523> and it seems a little surprising, although not obviously incorrect
13:05:15 <oerjan> i think i've heard the proof is somewhat tricky
13:05:37 <oerjan> "A deterministic context-free language is a language for which some LR(k) grammar exists. Every LR(k) grammar for k > 1 can be mechanically transformed into an LR(1) grammar for the same language, while an LR(0) grammar for the same language may not exist; the LR(0) languages are a proper subset of the deterministic ones.
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13:13:32 <KingOfKarlsruhe> if someone want to compile Brainfuck to C++ ^^ http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=0qjQJTEW it´s GuileScheme
13:13:54 <ais523> there are a bunch of brainfuck to (insert language here) compilers already
13:14:02 <ais523> is it naive, or does it try to optimise in some way?
13:16:14 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ais523: if you disable "tape_protection" in the resultung code, then it is fast enough
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13:29:52 <oerjan> ...i suddenly wonder if i can do a one-counter extended minsky machine with :()^!
13:39:39 <oerjan> because i don't need either a or ~ in the TM construction if there is just one symbol
13:39:56 <ais523> what do you mean by "extended" here?
13:40:15 <oerjan> the one which can do mult by constant and divmod
13:40:39 <ais523> ah, divmod-based minsky machines
13:40:53 <oerjan> they're listed in our wiki article
13:40:58 <ais523> that's a bit of an abstraction inversion in a way, isn't it, because aren't two-counter minsky machines shown TC by using them to emulate divmod-based?
13:41:08 <ais523> (and yes, I knew about divmod-based, just not that name for them)
13:41:34 <oerjan> i think so, i looked at the wikipedia Counter machine article the other day
13:41:50 <oerjan> um i only made up that name now
13:42:03 <ais523> ah, no wonder I didn't know what it meant!
13:42:51 <oerjan> it would look like (U)(U)(T)^n(T):^!{s}^^{m}!^
13:42:51 <ais523> your fix on Checkout was entirely correct, btw; malloc/6 was originally a /5 for technical reasons, but I realised I could make it /6 without changing the semantics, and it's a lot clearer that way
13:43:29 <oerjan> *it would look like (U)(U)(T){n}(T):^!{s}^^{m}!^
13:43:51 <oerjan> ({n} being repetition count, since ^ is sort of taken)
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13:47:11 <oerjan> hm is there a technical term for that kind of turing machine? just one symbol other than the end points, but symbols can be inserted and deleted
13:49:45 <oerjan> hm wait that's _also_ a two counter ordinary minsky machine isn't it
13:49:56 <ais523> yep, assuming you have a pointer
13:50:00 <ais523> it's one-counter if you don't have a tape pointer
13:50:49 <oerjan> and the ends are equivalent to the zero checks
13:50:58 <ais523> yep, I was talking in general, rather than in this case in particular
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14:40:57 <oerjan> ^ul (((()(!:^!^))(!((0)S!:^^!^)(!:^!^))(!!((1)S!:^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!!(!:^^^)))(:^!!!^)):^^(^)(::**)::**!^
14:41:29 <oerjan> ^ul (((()(!:^!^))(!((0)S!:^^!^)(!:^!^))(!!((1)S!:^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!!(!:^^^)))(:^!!!^)):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^
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14:48:30 <oerjan> ^ul (((((S|)S)((S*)S!:^!^))(!((R0|)S!:^^!^)((R0*)S!:^!^))(!!((R1|)S!:^^!^)((R1*)S!::^!!^))(!!!((L*)S!:^^^)))((|L)S:^!!!^)):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^
14:48:30 <fungot> |LS*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1|
14:51:35 <oerjan> ^ul (((()(!:^!^))(!((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!!(!:^^^)))(:^!!!^)):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^
14:51:36 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output!
14:52:08 <oerjan> ^ul (((((S|)S)((S*)S!:^!^))(!((R0|)S!:^^^!^)((R0*)S!:^!^))(!!((R1|)S!:^^^!^)((R1*)S!::^!!^))(!!!((L*)S!:^^^)))((|L)S:^!!!^)):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^
14:52:08 <fungot> |LS*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1|L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*|LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS*R1||LS ...too much output!
14:54:41 <Gregor> Bahaha, it capitalized it :P
15:01:44 <oerjan> ^ul (((()(!:^!^))(!((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!!(!:^^^^)))(:^!!!^)):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^
15:01:45 <fungot> 100110000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...too much output!
15:02:52 <oerjan> ^ul (((((S|)S)((S*)S!:^!^))(!((R0|)S!:^^^!^)((R0*)S!:^!^))(!!((R1|)S!:^^^!^)((R1*)S!::^!!^))(!!!((L*)S!:^^^^)))((|L)S:^!!!^)):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^
15:02:52 <fungot> |LS*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1|L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*L*|LS*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0|L*L*L*L*L*L*L*|LS*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1*R0|L*L*L*L*|LS*R1*R0*R1*R0*R1|L*L*|LS*R1*R0*R1|L*|LS*R1*R0|L*|LS*R1*R0|L*|LS*R1*R0|L*|LS*R1*R0|L*|LS*R1*R0|L*|LS*R1*R0|L*|LS*R1* ...too much output!
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16:51:03 <Ilari> APNIC down <0.01. 16k+2x4k+2k to Japan, 4k to India, 256 to Indonesia, 2x256 to Vietnam. IPv6: /32 to Cambodia, /32 to Nepal.
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17:36:17 <Ilari> Tsk, tsk. .se doesn't look like IPv6-ready. :-)
17:40:56 <Gregor> What, the whole country?
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17:42:25 <Ilari> Authoritative DNS for .se.
17:46:36 <Gregor> But then, who cares about .se <trollface/>
17:47:19 <Ilari> Oops, they do have IPv6 nameservers.
18:01:38 <Ilari> TLDs that really seem IPv6-incapable: ag, ai, asia, aw, ax, ba, bb, bd, bf, bh, bj, bn, bo, bs, bv, bz, cc, ck, cm, co, coop, cr, cx, dj, dm, er, fk, fo, gd, gf, gi, gm, gov, gp, gu, hm, hn, info, iq, ir, jobs, kp, ky, lc, mg, mh, mil, mm, mn, mobi, mp, mq, mu, mv, name, nc, ne, ni, nu,
18:04:29 <Ilari> pf, pg, pk, pr, pro, pw, qa, sc, sd, sj, sl, sm, sr, st, sv, sy, tc, td, tg, tk, tl, to, tr, tt, tv, uz, vc, vg, vi, vu, ws, ye, zw, xn--ogbpf8fl, xn--wgbh1c, xn--wgbl6a and xn--ygbi2ammx
18:06:32 <Ilari> How I did get that list: I AXFR'd root zone, collected all AAAA records there, then filtered all TLDs having NS pointing to one of those AAAA records and then diffed that with full list of all TLDs there.
18:06:39 <Gregor> Glad at least us isn't on there :P
18:07:12 <Ilari> And .asia and .mobi is there?
18:08:42 <Ilari> Urgh. Looks like that list is generated quite wrong.
18:12:38 <Ilari> Hopefully generating it correctly: ai, aw, ax, ba, bb, bd, bf, bh, bj, bn, bo, bs, bv, cc, ck, cm, co, coop, cr, cx, dj, dm, er, fk, fo, gd, gf, gm, gov, gp, gu, hm, iq, ir, jobs, kp, ky, mg, mh, mil, mm, mp, mq, mu, mv, name, nc, ne, ni, nu, pf, pg, pk, pr, pro, pw, qa, sd, sj, sl, sm, sr, st,
18:13:00 <Ilari> sv, sy, tc, td, tg, tk, tl, to, tr, tt, tv, uz, vg, vi, vu, ws, ye, zw, xn--ogbpf8fl, xn--wgbh1c, xn--wgbl6a and xn--ygbi2ammx.
18:13:46 <Gregor> Isn't that administered by one of the groups that administers .com, .net or .org?
18:15:53 <Gregor> Yeah, it's run by VeriSign.
18:16:14 <Gregor> How is it that they can figure out .com and .net, but not .name, .cc or .tv :P
18:16:59 <Ilari> Nope, same gorup that administers, tv, cc and jobs. And they have NSes running IPv6. Except those aren't used for the TLDs they admin.
18:18:54 <Ilari> And with luck, there's couple TLDs there that do have IPv6 capability but no AAAA glue records in the root zone.
18:24:50 <Ilari> And yes, .mil and .gov really appear to be IPv6-incapable.
18:28:32 <pikhq> That should change soon...
18:28:48 <pikhq> DoD directive requiring all military systems to be on IPv6 by January 2012.
18:31:34 <Ilari> Heh. There are legends about DOD having IPv6 /13, but there doesn't seem to be public allocation records for that. So perhaps it is "bogon" space.
18:33:04 <Ilari> The biggest block I can find allocation records for is a /16, apparently to some NIR in Brazil.
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20:13:47 <Gregor> Are you .... IRC'ing from a Nintendo DS?
20:14:57 <Ilari> 306 TLDs total, 222 of those are IPv6 capable. So that leaves 84 TLDs that are IPv4-only.
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20:17:18 <Ilari> What could be fun list: All ASNs announcing IPv4 space but no IPv6 space.
20:18:07 <Ilari> Oh, and complete with AS names.
20:19:24 <Ilari> To the public internet that is.
20:23:24 <Gregor> Explains the lag time for him to respond, too.
20:23:35 <fizzie> Explains the read error.
20:24:04 <fizzie> Though the DS IRC clients I've used have been rather horrible, so that's not a completely ruled-out possibility either.
20:28:34 <fizzie> There's one in DSorganize, and it's bad. Almost as bad as the "web browser".
20:28:41 <fizzie> Have to put that in quotes.
20:29:28 <Gregor> Well, what do you expect from a suite named "disorganize"
20:31:11 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, ClIRC -- http://www.ds-xtra.com/ClIRC -- wasn't really anything to write home about either.
20:32:00 <fizzie> Haven't tried either in a long while, though, since the DS doesn't do WPA. (I used to have a separate 802.11b USB stick I ran in access point mode + NAT for trying DS networking stuff out.)
20:37:13 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: i'm wondering how to modify a number? cause a string can be applied to arguments ( which, if i just don't know
20:47:00 <Gregor> I don't see him here now :P
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20:52:28 <elliott> 20:22:01 <oerjan> while "readonlyly" looks barely possible as an adverb, allowing it to stay would make it only about the 9th google hit so i assume it's a typo for "readonly".
20:59:44 <olsner> shouldn't that be readonlily?
21:00:08 <olsner> feels like the y should become i when you bend the word like that
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21:21:57 <olsner> meh, why did I have to end up with you guys?
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21:29:55 <Phantom__Hoover> To kick Sgeo_ and cheater- before they ruined the party on the awesome side of the netsplit.
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21:41:31 <cheater-> Phantom__Hoover: stop trolling
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21:44:37 <cheater-> Ilari: .cx is ipv6 incapable??
21:44:47 <cheater-> Ilari: can this really mean the true, real end of goatse.cx???
21:45:00 <cheater-> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
21:45:20 <olsner> eeh, that page exists on something like thousands of other addresses
21:45:52 <olsner> and there's room for about 2^100 more in ipv6
21:46:27 <cheater-> yes, but the domain has a sentimental value :(
21:46:57 <cheater-> it'll feel like something important is gone
21:47:29 <cheater-> imagine that suddenly st. paul's cathedral in london is gone
21:47:37 <olsner> I wouldn't care about that
21:47:58 <cheater-> imagine one of your fingers is gone forever
21:48:08 <cheater-> that's what it would feel like
21:48:14 <Ilari> Right, .cx doesn't seem to support IPv6.
21:48:20 <cheater-> yes, that's exactly how sad it would be
21:48:23 <olsner> especially if one of my fingers was a cathedral in london
21:48:29 <cheater-> Ilari: can .cx fix this problem?
21:48:36 <cheater-> Ilari: or is this something unfixable?
21:48:55 <Ilari> Yes, they can. The DNS is handled by dyntld.net
21:49:02 <olsner> but I imagine a domain name would be of little use as a finger, so I would probably be fine about losing it
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21:50:50 <Ilari> Basically, dual-stack some/all of authoritative nameservers of the TLD and then send the AAAA glue records to root.
21:52:29 <Ilari> 222 TLDs have AAAA glue records in the root zone.
21:53:37 <Ilari> (there are 306 total).
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22:39:00 <fizzie> A split casualty, I guess.
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22:53:55 <iconmaster> IconJoust is FINALLY done virusscaning, and is linked at the BF Joust page!
22:55:35 <iconmaster> Im not good at much (other than Lua, really). Yay high self esteem!
22:58:53 * iconmaster acrually thinks better of himself than he shows. no, really!
23:00:29 <iconmaster> Ya, im going to try to work a ()* system for IconJoust this weekend.
23:02:07 <iconmaster> Well, doesnt (a{b}c)%x equal to (a)*xb(c)*x?
23:03:25 <elliott_> iconmaster: (x[y{z}a]b)%n is valid.
23:03:36 <elliott_> The point is that ({})% allows you to do nesting.
23:04:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:04:26 <iconmaster> Why can't you do ([)? it would be easy in IconJoust.
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23:06:43 <elliott_> iconmaster: You're just going to expand them in memory.
23:07:02 <elliott_> Especially since ()% allows the expansion of a program to be exponentially bigger than its source.
23:07:56 <iconmaster> But () would lagdeath to display the program! It needs to iterate.
23:08:23 <iconmaster> Hmmm... Ill sort this out. Brb for now.
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23:09:16 <elliott_> hmm, what do you need apart from NAND to do arithmetic?
23:16:24 <elliott_> gotta love any machine where mov isn't a primitive
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23:32:45 <oerjan> 12:52:28 <elliott> 20:22:01 <oerjan> while "readonlyly" looks barely possible as an adverb, allowing it to stay would make it only about the 9th google hit so i assume it's a typo for "readonly".
23:32:49 <oerjan> 12:52:32 <elliott> no, ais types like that
23:32:51 <oerjan> 12:59:44 <olsner> shouldn't that be readonlily?
23:32:54 <oerjan> 13:00:08 <olsner> feels like the y should become i when you bend the word like that
23:33:03 <oerjan> i thought about that, but it didn't really help with the google hits :D
23:33:16 <elliott_> oerjan: i'm an authority, i have successfully mimicked ais523's writing style completely undetected before, a rare feat!
23:33:44 <elliott_> oerjan: i can assure you that if "readonlyly" makes sense there it was totally intentional :P
23:33:59 <elliott_> I wish English made such things more elegant
23:34:14 <elliott_> like, a nice to-adverb suffix. and it should be agglutinative.
23:34:35 <elliott_> actually "read-only" is a good word because it's essentially agglutinative anyway
23:34:40 <oerjan> well it's mainly inelegant there because you have an adjective made with a -ly adverb inside
23:34:56 <elliott_> oerjan: is only derived from an adverb?
23:35:22 <oerjan> um it _is_ an adverb, presumably derived from "one"?
23:35:34 <elliott_> I would call only an adjective?
23:35:55 <oerjan> ok it can be used for both i think
23:36:04 <elliott_> I'm not sure the "one" etymology is clear either
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23:36:48 <elliott_> oerjan: anyway vocabulary should be formed for maximal elegance upon arbitrary composition
23:36:53 <oerjan> hm ok it was the obvious one though
23:37:02 <elliott_> oh it may be true, it's just not obvious to me as a dumb native
23:37:45 <oerjan> well only means "just the one", sort of
23:38:00 <elliott_> oerjan: really though. agglutinativitivity is totally awesome
23:38:31 <oerjan> the norwegian equivalent is "eneste", which would directly translate as "onest"
23:38:59 <elliott_> if i want a language that's so fucking agglutinative that the speakers don't even know how to not agglut things
23:39:12 <elliott_> how agglutinative is moonspeak?
23:39:31 <oerjan> greenlandic, even more
23:39:40 <miekko> greenlandic is pretty bad
23:39:46 <miekko> but I think there's some native american langs that
23:39:54 <miekko> and some australian ones
23:39:59 <elliott_> finnish is pretty agglutinative i think yes
23:40:03 <miekko> iirc kayardild permits stacking casess
23:40:12 <miekko> japanese only agglutinates in the verbs
23:40:13 <oerjan> yeah i hear native american languages in general tend to be much more agglutinative
23:40:19 <elliott_> Agglutinative languages tend to have a high rate of affixes/morphemes per word, and to be very regular[citation needed]. For example, Japanese has only two irregular verbs (and not very irregular), Luganda has only one (or two, depending on how 'irregular' is defined), Turkish has only one and in the Quechua languages all the verbs are regular. Georgian is an exception; not only is it highly agglutinative (there can be simultaneously up to 8 morphemes
23:40:19 <elliott_> per word), but there is also a significant number of irregular verbs, varying in degrees of irregularity.
23:40:19 <elliott_> no mention of finnish, probably because of SYSTEMATIC RACISM
23:40:36 <elliott_> actually i'm not sure how you go about inventing a language that isn't agglutinative, except maybe by being retarded
23:40:45 <miekko> in kayardild, if you have a subclause, every word in that subclause will be marked by the case of the noun it modifies
23:40:48 <elliott_> if it didn't sound so darn awkward half of my words would have like three hyphens in them
23:40:59 <elliott_> miekko: hey do we have two linguists in here now? :D
23:41:06 <miekko> I'm not really a linguist
23:41:10 <miekko> but I've read tons of typology
23:41:13 <elliott_> more than that n00b augur haha
23:41:13 <miekko> and it's my minor subject
23:41:22 <miekko> I know augur from elsewhere
23:41:31 <elliott_> sorry, you are getting in the way of me mocking augur
23:41:39 <miekko> funnier than linguistics syntax
23:41:46 <elliott_> <augur> hurf durf!! languages! syntax!
23:42:03 <elliott_> i know how to strike pain into the centre of his heart
23:42:09 <elliott_> so that he will never recover from the absolute slander
23:42:23 <elliott_> okay, someone who isn't me talk, i'm well on my way to making a fool of myself
23:42:53 <elliott_> or have possibly reached making a fool of myself and drove past mindlessly
23:42:58 <oerjan> <elliott_> actually i'm not sure how you go about inventing a language that isn't agglutinative, except maybe by being retarded <-- i think you emulate history by piling on so many sound changes you cannot see the boundary between the suffixes any more
23:43:16 <elliott_> oerjan: that _isn't_ agglutinative
23:43:40 <miekko> elliott_: i'm also, like augur, into you know, trying to construct natural-like languages (as works of art, not as anything else)
23:43:54 <miekko> and uh, isolating languages aren't that difficult to construct
23:43:56 <elliott_> miekko: haha faggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg!
23:44:00 <miekko> just sound change things to zero all the way
23:44:03 <oerjan> or sound changes that turn the suffixes into nothing
23:44:17 <elliott_> man i'm slanderin' a lot today
23:44:26 <miekko> whenever you get homophones
23:44:39 <miekko> you add a synonym or something before or after it
23:44:49 <miekko> or some other word that feels reasonably related
23:44:58 <oerjan> and of course starting using auxiliary verbs and prepositions and the like instead of suffixes
23:45:01 <miekko> so, say owl, teacher and chair suddenly all are "pin"
23:45:29 <miekko> then you take the word "bird" (which of course is now a synonyme with ran or whatever) and stick by owl
23:45:49 <miekko> by chair, you put the word butt - which of course is synonymous with another bunch of words
23:45:49 <elliott_> hmm, if i learned an agglutinative language i might end up just not bothering to use multiple words in a sentence
23:45:52 <miekko> and by teacher, you stick beard.
23:45:53 <oerjan> (i recall reading indoeuropean prepositions derived from adverbs originally)
23:46:12 <miekko> oerjan: I think the occasional ones derive from nouns and verbs
23:46:23 <miekko> well not proto-indoeuropean ones
23:46:45 <miekko> in Finnish, many prepositions and postpositions still are visibly derived from nouns
23:47:40 <elliott_> hmm, I wonder whether forth is SOV or OSV
23:47:45 <elliott_> I think it might be the latter
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23:48:13 <oerjan> <elliott_> hmm, if i learned an agglutinative language i might end up just not bothering to use multiple words in a sentence <-- that would require more than just ordinary agglutinativity, you need polysynthetic
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23:48:54 <elliott_> i'd go for polysynthetic but it doesn't look like there are any languages that anyone speaks that are polysynthetic ;D
23:48:57 <miekko> elliott_: doesn't make much sense to consider computer langs as SOV or SVO or anything
23:49:09 <oerjan> elliott_: in finnish and hungarian say, you still usually need separate words for subject, verb and object say
23:49:23 <elliott_> miekko: the typical forth style constructs short "sentences" out of words which are unarguably verbs
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23:49:41 <miekko> oerjan: generally, you can omit the subject if it's first or second person
23:49:51 <miekko> elliott_: yeah but I guess there's no "cognitive" idea of subject and object?
23:50:04 <oerjan> yes, and in hungarian sometimes the object
23:50:10 <elliott_> miekko: well i'm not sure. I'm looking up what ! is now ("write to memory address")
23:50:14 <miekko> oerjan: yeah, that thing is pretty cool, really.
23:50:25 <elliott_> "value address !" would be OSV
23:50:26 <miekko> oerjan: they're still ... arguments of some kind
23:50:29 <elliott_> "address value !" would be SOV
23:51:43 <elliott_> value address gets, oranges sam eats
23:51:44 <miekko> it's an imperative, not a subj obj verb thing
23:51:52 <miekko> so there's an implicit subject - the computer.
23:52:05 <elliott_> miekko: well, yes. but consider plain arithmetic
23:52:09 <elliott_> obviously there's no subject vs. object there
23:52:13 <elliott_> but it's definitely not an imperative
23:52:18 <elliott_> and forth still uses RPN there
23:52:32 <elliott_> ok so that's an imperative the way it's phrased there
23:52:37 <elliott_> but that's not how forth code is reasoned about
23:52:49 <elliott_> ( m n -- m+n ) is how i'd "describe" it
23:53:04 <miekko> one can always reason about things in ways that suggests any number of things
23:53:09 <elliott_> and consider e.g. Joy, which ignoring IO is a purely functional language
23:53:09 <miekko> things that may not at all be analogous
23:53:14 <oerjan> <miekko> oerjan: I think the occasional ones derive from nouns and verbs <-- yeah i think norwegian "hos" (at ...'s house) and "til" (to) derive from words meaning house and goal, respectively
23:53:18 <elliott_> but forth code has a strong resemblance to sentences to me
23:53:53 <miekko> oerjan: does your dialect use til as an infinitive marker?
23:54:04 <miekko> (analogously to how English does)
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23:54:19 <miekko> ithkuil is terrible, but I think polysynthetic is a badly defined thing anyway
23:54:53 <elliott_> miekko: you misspelled "awesome"
23:55:08 <oerjan> <miekko> elliott_: doesn't make much sense to consider computer langs as SOV or SVO or anything <-- well most imperative languages seem to be V first, at least
23:55:20 <oerjan> oh wait object orientation is SVO
23:55:50 <elliott_> J is of course SVO. or OVS, who can tell.
23:56:05 <elliott_> I think array indexing is array first, index second
23:57:18 <miekko> elliott_: no, if I misspell awesome, it'll be avesome. it's a problem ve scandinawians sometimes hwe
23:57:29 <oerjan> <miekko> oerjan: does your dialect use til as an infinitive marker? <-- no we use "å" like most norwegians, cannot say i recall "til" used that way
23:57:45 <miekko> it's present in some dialects of Swedish - mine does it
23:58:11 <miekko> mine sounds a lot like northern norwegian if norwegian lost pitch accent
23:58:31 <oerjan> well my dialect is northern norwegian
23:58:39 <miekko> ok, well, I figured it was worth a shot.
23:58:42 <elliott_> miekko: you still haven't apologised for your clearly incorrect remark, then!
23:58:50 <miekko> elliott_: no, ithkuil is terrible.
23:58:59 <miekko> it's what we call a kitchen-sink conlang
23:59:16 <elliott_> miekko: heh, as snobbish as we esolangers
23:59:17 <miekko> and it's an almost entirely unartistic cartesian product of elements
23:59:26 <elliott_> LOLCode is a SIN UNTO THE GODS.
23:59:57 <miekko> natural languages tend not to be cartesian products of their elements