00:00:03 <oerjan> elliott_: btw :()^! is also TC, i found out today
00:00:14 <elliott_> miekko: ithkuil's author at least admits that it isn't natural...
00:00:16 <miekko> so like, you have fewer cases in the plural, or not the same modals in the past as in the present, etc etc
00:00:28 <oerjan> elliott_: thinking about it :D
00:00:29 <miekko> ithkuil's just a list of elements and a cartesian X
00:00:39 <oerjan> (no conclusive idea yet)
00:00:41 <elliott_> miekko: Doesn't stop it being _fun_.
00:00:49 <miekko> but anyone can come up with that
00:01:00 <elliott_> miekko: Sure. does that matter?
00:01:03 <elliott_> ISTR oklopol was learning ithkuil a while back
00:01:08 <miekko> it takes skills to make something as deliciously torturous as Russian or English or Finnish
00:01:13 <elliott_> probably doing alright at it too...
00:01:25 <oerjan> (i have a sort of transfinite ordinal idea to start showing that :()^ _isn't_ TC, but it may only simplify the problem a little bit)
00:01:25 <elliott_> miekko: yeah, but there's room for a cartesian product alongside the other interesting stuff.
00:01:47 <miekko> well, at least the author of ithkuil doesn't believe he's in some kind of mystical communion with the inhabitants of another planet that speaks the language he has channelized
00:01:55 <miekko> (there's a conlanger like that...)
00:02:16 <elliott_> miekko: you misspelled "madman"
00:02:48 <miekko> or a future boddhisattva that bullies people into supporting his crazy, and has tried organizing conlangers into an organization under his leadership
00:03:01 <miekko> with the expressed intention of "making conlanging respected by academia"
00:03:11 <miekko> and "gaining insight into linguistics through conlanging"
00:03:44 <miekko> oh, that guy also is an otherkin
00:03:50 <elliott_> miekko: at least us esolangers are crazy in similarly predictable ways
00:04:05 <miekko> so what's the gravest psychosis present here?
00:04:18 <elliott_> um not really any as far as i know
00:04:35 <elliott_> oerjan is the only crazy one here :D /me runs away
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00:05:05 <elliott_> miekko: talk about how terrible lojban is /me gets popcorn
00:05:24 <miekko> lojban was intended as an experiment, though, iirc?
00:06:00 <elliott_> miekko: more like: loglan was, then lojban was formed to develop it to practicality
00:06:09 <elliott_> the "official" name is "Lojban: a realization of Loglan"
00:06:17 <elliott_> I don't think it's terrible, btw
00:06:20 <elliott_> but I have a feeling conlangers might
00:06:21 <miekko> see, I can't keep all that kind of trivia in my mind anyway
00:06:28 <miekko> I have some kind of respect for it
00:06:30 <elliott_> augur would only say "it's not natural" when pressed :D
00:06:31 <miekko> don't know much about it
00:06:52 <miekko> my main interests are typology (and syntactical typology primarily)
00:07:10 <elliott_> lojban jumps between function/verb (forget their name for it) parameters with integral indexes
00:07:27 <elliott_> although iirc each index has a specific meaning
00:07:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:07:53 <miekko> which is kind of silly, considering that being the subject for some given verb needn't have any real similarity to being the subject of some other, etc. ..
00:08:12 <miekko> (otoh, not sure lojban has the idea of subjects)
00:08:17 <miekko> (some languages sort of don't)
00:09:22 <elliott_> alice in wonderland in lojban is quite amusing, if you scroll down the text fast enough it all looks the same
00:09:54 <miekko> I am being called a troll
00:10:06 <elliott_> what a rare event, on the internet!
00:10:27 <miekko> for pointing out that ad hominem is generally not considered fair
00:10:32 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: there's a third possibility, some subset of people are trolling.
00:10:34 <miekko> ^ on a forum dedicated to rationalism!
00:11:14 <elliott_> Most "rationalism" forums are a bit (very) terrible
00:11:17 <miekko> once I got a moderator advisory there, because a moderator kept misrepresenting my statements
00:11:28 <miekko> and I called him out on it
00:11:29 <elliott_> usually because they are started by people who equate atheism and rationalism
00:11:51 <miekko> so they only pay lip service to the rest of rationalism
00:11:58 <miekko> and this is something I am afraid may become way more common
00:12:16 <miekko> as people too stupid to realize religion is wrong accidentally become atheists
00:12:23 <elliott_> rationalskepticism looks like an offshoot of the richard dawkins forums to me. but that's just a first impression
00:12:51 <elliott_> miekko: well less wrong has very little discussion of atheism but might not be... to the tastes of most denizens of rationalism forums :P
00:13:15 <Mathnerd314> elliott_: law of excluded middle. Nobody can "somewhat troll"
00:13:16 <miekko> I know of less wrong through another friend, who's kind of fascinated with it
00:13:30 <miekko> but, uhm, posthumanism and such doesn't really appeal to me.
00:13:33 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: that has nothing to do with the law of excluded middle
00:13:48 <Mathnerd314> elliott_: I know. I just like saying random things :-)
00:13:50 <elliott_> miekko: less wrong isn't mostly about transhumanism tbh
00:13:55 <miekko> elliott_: somewhat, though
00:14:07 <miekko> and it's one of the flavours of stupid that
00:14:11 <oerjan> <elliott_> Most "rationalism" forums are a bit (very) terrible <-- a bit like "democratic" in the official name of countries? :D
00:14:17 <miekko> because it attracts me a bit too much
00:14:27 <miekko> for some reason, stupidity is a thing I love to observe
00:14:30 <elliott_> miekko: transhumanism isn't stupid IMO; the popular perception of transhumanism on the other hand...
00:14:49 <miekko> yeah, but like, think of the economy of immortality
00:15:09 <elliott_> miekko: that only applies if scarcity holds
00:15:12 <miekko> (immortality, of course, not being all what transhumanism is about, but it's one of the things)
00:15:32 <elliott_> miekko: more precisely most Less Wrongers are /Singularitarians/ which obviously makes the economy of it irrelevant, ignoring all else
00:15:39 <elliott_> (because it pretty much implies post-scarcity)
00:15:41 <miekko> yeah, singularitarianism is even worse.
00:15:50 <miekko> I'm with Scott Aaronson on that
00:16:02 <miekko> thinks that look exponential often turn out to be sigmoid
00:16:09 <elliott_> miekko: oh ouch, ignore Kurzweil!
00:16:18 <elliott_> no sane singularitarian argues based on exponential progress
00:16:28 <oerjan> <Mathnerd314> elliott_: law of excluded middle. Nobody can "somewhat troll" <-- i am wondering if i'm detecting a self-refuting statement here :D
00:16:33 <miekko> yeah but even polynomial progress is probably unlikely
00:16:51 <elliott_> miekko: nobody sane argues for the singularity based on inherent rate of progress either :)
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00:17:09 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: it's not self-referential, so it can't be self-refuting
00:17:14 <elliott_> apart from kurzweil it's more a combination of "a singularity would be a good thing; and a singularity is possible"
00:17:48 <elliott_> hey, we successfully strayed wildly off topic again!
00:17:58 <miekko> altho I think a singularity would be a good thing, I think it very likely, to the extent it's possible, is less dramatic than we'd think
00:18:19 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: well i first detected accidental self-reference
00:18:34 <elliott_> miekko: I don't think a suitably-morally-equipped self-improving superintelligence could possibly have a non-dramatic effect, but whatever :0
00:18:52 <elliott_> whereby moral i mean supergoal or equivalent
00:19:01 <miekko> what do we mean by "superintelligence"
00:19:18 <miekko> if we barely have a good understanding of what an "intelligence" is, it's hard to really say
00:19:20 <elliott_> miekko: stop asking questions or i'll end up linking to yudkowsky, which is just too stereotypical
00:19:34 <miekko> I've read quite a bit of yudkowsky
00:19:41 <miekko> and I'm not satisfied with his stuff
00:19:48 <elliott_> superintelligence is a well-defined term meaning an intelligence orders of magnitudes greater than a human's, where greater is defined as both more accurate and faster
00:19:50 <miekko> but I'm not interested enough in the topic to start asking
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00:20:03 <elliott_> I'm not the world's biggest Yudkowsky fan but he's nice enough
00:20:11 <Mathnerd314> miekko: so.. "I'm right, but too lazy to explain why"
00:20:13 <miekko> elliott_: so we define something by something we don't quite know wht it is
00:20:22 <elliott_> miekko: what is it that i don't know what it is
00:20:28 <miekko> Mathnerd314: no, more like, I may be wrong, but I'm not willing to care enough to be sure about it
00:20:32 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: either Mathnerd314 is trolling, or everybody is trolling.
00:20:40 <miekko> elliott_: we don't quite know what intelligence is
00:20:51 <elliott_> miekko: no, but we don't have to to talk about superintelligences :)
00:20:57 <miekko> iirc Turing said something about there being theorems that anything intelligent will be wrong at times, though
00:21:11 <miekko> (well, badly rephrased=
00:21:24 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: i realized your statement might not be self-refuting away, since you might be completely trolling
00:21:36 <elliott_> but we don't need to get at the intangible metaphysical ontological epistemological DEEP INNER MEANING of the word "intelligence" to talk about an intelligent being faster and more accurate at making deductions than a human
00:21:45 <pikhq> miekko: Y'know, at this point an artificial human-level intelligence seems not merely possible but will likely happen *soon*.
00:21:59 <miekko> pikhq: yeah, so is fusion reactors
00:22:05 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: all my statements are intended to be considered as "Mathnerd314 said on IRC that ... "
00:22:07 <elliott_> pikhq: I find "soon" far too optimistic.
00:22:10 <miekko> both have been decades away for half a century
00:22:12 <zzo38> Can there be Checkout with fixed-point? Is there fixed-point GPU exist?
00:22:22 -!- augur has joined.
00:22:27 <elliott_> miekko: but but but kurzweil told me that
00:22:39 <pikhq> elliott_: We're not too far from it being possible to do whole-brain emulation.
00:22:45 <miekko> I have to reevaluate my stance.
00:22:51 <miekko> unicorns, who can oppose them?
00:22:52 <elliott_> pikhq: that's not the same thing as writing a self-improving intelligence from scratch :)
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00:23:10 <pikhq> elliott_: I only said human-level intelligence.
00:23:13 <zzo38> How are unicorns relevant?
00:23:27 <elliott_> pikhq: full-brain emulation will be RATHER slow on current hardware though afaik :)
00:23:56 <pikhq> elliott_: Though an emulated brain could plausibly self-improve, what with having no biological limits to care about. :P
00:23:57 <Mathnerd314> well, you make the brain you're emulating consider how to optimize your emulation
00:24:15 <elliott_> pikhq: say i want to learn an agglutinative language and ONLY an agglutinative language, how good a pick is japanese
00:24:20 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: If it's slower than you, then what's the point?
00:24:22 <zzo38> Should you use quantum computer if you want to attempt this?
00:24:31 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: it'd only be as smart as we are, by definition
00:24:38 <elliott_> and slower, so we'd do a better job of optimising it than it would
00:24:49 <elliott_> never mind that hooking it up to IO ports will take longer than just being able to emulate it
00:24:55 <pikhq> elliott_: Depends, how much do you care about Japanese cultural exports?
00:25:03 <elliott_> oh and of course nobody is likely to raise any complaints when the emulator is switched off permanently, killing a sentient lifeform...
00:25:14 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: not if it doesn't know where it is.
00:25:19 <elliott_> and no, not really, think about it, thinking slower is a superpower
00:25:24 <elliott_> it can see stuff pass by much faster
00:25:27 <oerjan> <pikhq> elliott_: We're not too far from it being possible to do whole-brain emulation. <-- it occurs to me that it might need a body too in order not to go mad from sensory deprivation
00:25:30 <elliott_> which, when you have nothing to do, would make things less boring :D
00:25:31 <Mathnerd314> elliott_: sure. I make emulations of sentient people all the time and kill them.
00:25:39 <elliott_> oerjan: indeed. but i doubt that'll stop anyone rushing in to it :)
00:25:43 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: but not sentient emulations
00:25:45 <pikhq> oerjan: s/body/IO/
00:25:51 <augur> elliott_: what now
00:25:56 <elliott_> oerjan: give it an INTERNET BODY
00:26:03 <elliott_> augur: just saying you were sucking on chomsky's dick
00:26:13 <cheater00> https://github.com/karthick18/inception/blob/master/inception.c
00:26:14 <oerjan> pikhq: no not just IO, we are talking about a _human_ brain here, it needs human-style senses
00:26:25 <elliott_> oerjan: fuck that, internet body
00:26:30 <pikhq> oerjan: The human brain is absurdly flexible about IO, actually.
00:26:33 <elliott_> oerjan: hooked right up to porn and reddit
00:26:39 <augur> elliott_: i dont see how that relates to lojban but ok
00:26:59 <oerjan> pikhq: maybe. babies die without touch, you know.
00:27:05 <pikhq> Stick video and sound input *somewhere*, and the brain will actually figure it out.
00:27:10 <elliott_> augur: i literally said you were blowing chomsky.
00:27:16 <oerjan> the other senses might be less important, see helen keller
00:27:17 <Mathnerd314> cheater00: impossible, since I have several channels you aren't on
00:27:19 <augur> elliott_: yes, you just did
00:27:21 <elliott_> oerjan: what pikhq says is true; the brain can adapt to all kinds of input
00:27:43 <pikhq> So, yes, getting input is important, but that's not a hard problem.
00:27:48 <elliott_> oerjan: for instance if "artificial vision" were ever done in practice, figuring out how to send it to the brain would basically be unimportant
00:27:53 <elliott_> because the brain could figure it out itself
00:27:57 <Mathnerd314> cheater00: a positive integer, please, expressed in decimal notation
00:27:57 <elliott_> this has been observed, I strongly recall
00:28:07 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: by joining all channels i have sent out an infinite amount of information, but this information can only alter the universe at a finite rate
00:28:09 <pikhq> elliott_: "Artificial vision" is merely not a common procedure yet.
00:28:19 <elliott_> oerjan: touch would probably be important and the like. but it doesn't need to be mapped to the real world afaik
00:28:29 <pikhq> elliott_: It is, however, actually done.
00:28:40 <Mathnerd314> cheater00: no, because the number of channels on freenode is finite.
00:28:53 <coppro> elliott_: You would need to make sure your input meets certain parameters
00:28:56 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: not all channels on freenode.
00:28:57 <elliott_> oerjan: and i suspect that if you gave a brain enough data, when it goes all "omg! i'm not getting any touch action", it'd likely map some input it's getting to touch
00:29:09 <elliott_> in an "oh, guess my fingers are being all stupid with their signals" way
00:29:11 <coppro> but the brain is good at dealing with minor details like upside-down-ness
00:29:19 <elliott_> this is, of course, mere speculation.
00:29:28 <Mathnerd314> cheater00: how many channels *on freenode* are you on?
00:29:29 <elliott_> pikhq: you still haven't answered my question >:(
00:29:40 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: break out of that infinite troll-loop
00:29:47 <elliott_> <elliott_> pikhq: say i want to learn an agglutinative language and ONLY an agglutinative language, how good a pick is japanese
00:30:04 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: you are under my power you will not break out of the loop EVER
00:30:06 <pikhq> 17:55 < pikhq> elliott_: Depends, how much do you care about Japanese cultural exports?
00:30:24 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: your soul is mine for EVERRRRRrrrr
00:30:29 <elliott_> pikhq: I did not receive that.
00:30:40 <elliott_> pikhq: I'm asking purely from an agglutinative point of view :P
00:30:50 <Mathnerd314> cheater00: hah, how do you know I have a soul?
00:30:55 <pikhq> elliott_: Very good.
00:31:15 <pikhq> elliott_: I dunno about Finnish, but Japanese agglutinates a fuckton.
00:31:54 <cheater00> the major has linked up with it and has found it to have a soul
00:32:17 <cheater00> and batou will tell you she's never wrong about those things.
00:32:24 <elliott_> pikhq: but japanese doesn't have an explicit word division right?
00:32:35 <elliott_> so technically i could speak only in one-word sentences and nobody would notice? SAY YES
00:32:53 <pikhq> elliott_: Technically, one-word sentences are pretty common.
00:33:05 <pikhq> It helps that Japanese is a pro-drop language.
00:33:48 <elliott_> pikhq: speakingsentencesonewordofexclusivelyelliottdesires
00:34:06 <oerjan> elliott_: i'm just acknowledging your statements without anything new to say...
00:34:29 <cheater00> japanese is like golfing for speech
00:35:11 <pikhq> elliott_: "iti kotohàno hùn tàke hanasitai"?
00:35:33 <elliott_> pikhq: That's far too many spaces.
00:35:47 <elliott_> Also, I would stick that into Google Translate but you're still using your romanisation scheme :P
00:36:08 <oerjan> ...now we see the REAL evil of pikhq's romanisation plot
00:36:38 <elliott_> omg you can type "jap" to select japanese in the google translate box
00:36:38 <pikhq> Gaaah, I did it wrong, anyways.
00:36:40 <elliott_> and "en" for english and whatever
00:36:50 <elliott_> pikhq: but but but that's like multiple words!
00:37:23 <pikhq> elliott_: Agglutination doesn't go that far in any language, man.
00:37:32 <elliott_> pikhq: does in polysynthetic ones!
00:37:57 <elliott_> that's polysynthetic, maybe i could pretend ;D
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00:38:08 <pikhq> Ainu only uses katakana.
00:38:16 <pikhq> Which are very poorly suited to Ainu, anyways.
00:38:28 <elliott_> From Classical Ainu, another polysynthetic, incorporating, and agglutinating language:
00:38:28 <elliott_> Usaopuspe aejajkotujmasiramsujpa.
00:38:28 <elliott_> usa-opuspea-e-jaj-ko-tujma-si-ram-suj-pa
00:38:28 <elliott_> various-rumors1-APL-REFL-far-REFL-heart-sway-ITER
00:38:28 <elliott_> 'I keep swaying my heart afar and toward myself over various rumors.' (i.e., I wonder about various rumors.)
00:38:33 <elliott_> the only problem there is the single space
00:38:38 <elliott_> just remove that, and it's perfect
00:38:48 <elliott_> also remove the stupid... communication by overwrought metaphor :D
00:39:03 <oerjan> 13:20:57 --- quit: clog (*.net *.split)
00:39:15 <oerjan> that's an interesting link to see in the tunes.org logs...
00:39:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:39:53 <oerjan> hm it's clog_ at the moment
00:40:07 <oerjan> so probably that was genuine
00:42:32 <elliott_> 10:18:31 <Sgeo> Switching over to Ion3 ;-)
00:42:32 <elliott_> 10:20:25 --- quit: Sgeo (Remote closed the connection)
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00:42:37 <elliott_> OH GOD, I FEEL HIS MALICIOUSNESS
00:43:07 <elliott_> (Further evidence of Sgeo_'s decline: my initial reaction was "SGEO? Using ion3? wait, this is from 2006.")
00:46:47 <elliott_> pikhq: watashinorisoutekinagengodehabunshouha1tsunotangodesu.
00:47:18 <pikhq> elliott_: I'm not sure I'd call that a single word.
00:47:28 <elliott_> pikhq: (What does that read as, BTW :P)
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00:48:19 <pikhq> In my logical language, sentences will have only 1ne word.
00:48:29 <elliott_> I take it that's not idiomatic.
00:48:56 <pikhq> Sorry, minor mistranslation on my part.
00:49:10 <pikhq> Also, it's the wrong word for "word". "Tango" is more in the sense of vocabulary.
00:49:10 <elliott_> pikhq: watashihasubetenobunshoudedonnanitanjunmatahafukuzatsunatan'itsunotangotosoreijoudekouseisareterisoutekinagengonoanatatosubetenowatashinobijonwokyouyuushitaitoomoimasu.
00:49:37 <elliott_> (私はすべての文章でどんなに単純または複雑な単一の単語とそれ以上で構成されて理想的な言語のあなたとすべての私のビジョンを共有したいと思います。)
00:49:51 <pikhq> elliott_: Thank God for the kanji, I was about to tell you "fuck no".
00:50:18 <elliott_> "You want to do WHAT with my mother's goat? ...wait, broke the words in the wrong place."
00:50:42 <elliott_> pikhq: My method, by the way, is using Google Translate, then removing all commas from the output :P
00:51:15 <pikhq> elliott_: Google Translate seems to have fucked something up.
00:51:32 <pikhq> About 1/4th of the way through the grammar falls apart.
00:52:25 <elliott_> pikhq: Koreharomajimokantannabunshounidoredakehayakuseichousurukahijouniodorokida!
00:52:29 <elliott_> (これはローマ字も簡単な文章にどれだけ早く成長するか非常に驚きだ)
00:53:09 <pikhq> elliott_: That is, in fact, an entirely normal sentence.
00:53:16 <elliott_> pikhq: But, but, I removed a comma.
00:53:25 <elliott_> pikhq: (Is it still normal when I remove all the spaces from the romaji? :P)
00:53:34 <pikhq> elliott_: Not from the romaji.
00:53:54 <pikhq> Japanese speakers will add spaces if they're not using kanji, because it's a motherfucking *pain* to read.
00:54:14 <pikhq> Thisismuchmucheasiertoreadthanthatbullshit.
00:55:55 <elliott_> pikhq: What does ^x mean in ascii romaji?
00:56:06 <elliott_> is ^ just ^ on top of the next letter?
00:56:44 <pikhq> elliott_: Depends, whose romaji scheme?
00:56:54 <elliott_> Romaji Translator at Romaji.org is a free Japanese to Romaji transliteration tool. You can translate japanese text (Kanji,Hiragana,Katakana) into Romaji or Hiragana.
00:57:06 <elliott_> "to^suto" is the relevant word
00:57:21 <pikhq> It goes on the previous.
00:57:44 <pikhq> And ' is almost certainly being used to disambiguate between moraic "n" and initial-consonant "n".
00:57:55 <elliott_> Also, is "ou" always õ or not?
00:58:07 <pikhq> "ou" is *usually* a long o.
00:59:00 <elliott_> pikhq: kyōfunotôsutonikeńeniki
01:01:02 <elliott_> I think I just confused pikhq to death.
01:02:07 <oerjan> nah, pikhq is just in need of some space now
01:12:14 <elliott_> oerjan: is :()^D tc, where D is dip? >:D
01:13:16 <oerjan> hm how do you write ^ in terms of D
01:14:03 <elliott_> oerjan: simple, have only even stack elements matter
01:14:24 <oerjan> i am guessing it can be done directly
01:14:40 <elliott_> oerjan: i'm not guaranteeing that it works like normal dip though
01:14:44 <elliott_> it could put the stack element somewhere else entirely!
01:14:55 <elliott_> (unless this is obviously impossible to do ^ directly with which i suspect)
01:14:57 <oerjan> well of course that doesn't matter
01:14:58 <elliott_> (in which case HAVE YER GUARANTEE)
01:15:04 <elliott_> oerjan: oh right, it doesn't...
01:15:15 <elliott_> i was thinking you could examine the result or something
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01:16:24 <oerjan> hm it's easy to get ^() , that's just (())DD
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01:17:19 <oerjan> yeah ^ is (())DD: if the stack has at least one element after the ^
01:17:40 <oerjan> and i don't think this subset has any way of deleting a lone stack element
01:18:20 <oerjan> somehow i wrote : for *
01:18:41 <oerjan> ok it's actually difficult to delete anything simple then
01:19:25 <oerjan> again assuming at least one element on the stack after the ^
01:20:29 <pikhq> elliott_: ' is not a bloody diactric in Japanese.
01:20:51 <oerjan> you are capable of doing (x)~ as ((x))D
01:20:55 <elliott_> pikhq: I thought it was in your super-retarded-romanisation-scheme
01:21:03 <pikhq> elliott_: Yes, but not in any other ones.
01:21:11 <elliott_> pikhq: I decided to be retarded.
01:21:12 <oerjan> elliott_: i think it looks likely that :()D is TC
01:21:29 <oerjan> even without ~, obviously with
01:21:40 <pikhq> elliott_: In every other romanisation scheme, it exists to distinguish, say, んや from にゃ (n'ya from nya).
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01:21:48 <elliott_> don't knock this bullshit, it could be the key to understanding :()^ !
01:21:53 <oerjan> elliott_: : is still indispensable
01:22:14 <elliott_> oerjan: ok what about this operation: "dip, then duplicate second-on-stack to top-of-stack"
01:22:18 <oerjan> no way to increase total size otherwise
01:22:35 <pikhq> It's a fairly important distinction, really.
01:22:40 <elliott_> so for instance ((x))V would push (x) on the top of stack
01:22:43 <elliott_> and also on the third on stack
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01:25:10 <oerjan> (y)((x)V -> (x)(y)(x) ?
01:25:17 <oerjan> *(y)((x))V -> (x)(y)(x) ?
01:25:56 <elliott_> if we had !, then (x)(y)(z)(!)V -> (x)(z)(x)
01:26:26 <elliott_> so the question is ~()V or *()V
01:29:51 <oerjan> ^ = (())DDD still, and : = ()()D(^)D
01:30:13 <oerjan> so !()V is enough at least
01:30:27 <elliott_> only if you have enough stack left
01:30:36 <elliott_> that seems like you'll need junk handling again
01:30:47 <elliott_> oerjan: V requires more elements than D
01:30:51 <elliott_> but you can easily just prefix your program with a shitload of ()s
01:31:01 <oerjan> well we need enough stack for ^ anyway
01:31:05 <elliott_> but then maybe you can't do it _forever_...
01:31:13 <elliott_> you can't push ()s down far enough in a loop
01:31:46 <oerjan> um that's not a problem, the parts that need dummy stack elements don't actually disturb them
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01:34:26 <oerjan> just put the maximum () at the start for each emulation, D, ^ and :
01:34:48 <oerjan> it will never be disturbed unless the converted program itself runs out of stack
01:34:56 <elliott_> my secret plan is that one of these will turn out to be semantically equivalent to :()^ somehow
01:37:02 <elliott_> the HARD-HITTING FORCE OF REALITY?
01:37:07 <oerjan> after V, whatever is on the top will also be at third
01:38:43 <oerjan> it may be necessary to let the programs produce easily removable junk
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01:41:13 <oerjan> so let's say there's a () kept on top of stack near constantly, and converted subprograms expect and preserve it
01:42:02 <oerjan> hm wait they don't expect it, but they put it there
01:44:20 <oerjan> to neuter the duplication when needed, use _three_ () on top of stack
01:46:43 <oerjan> i really cannot be bothered with this
01:49:33 <elliott_> is *()V likely to be any easier? :P
01:49:48 <oerjan> no, i left that for last because i have no f idea for it
01:49:49 <Ilari> Haha... Pic having some rodent with a stinger missile.
01:50:22 <oerjan> (just as i still have no idea for :()^*)
01:53:24 <oerjan> well no more than a vague feeling that i hope means my intuition is working on it
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02:02:52 <elliott_> oerjan: well obviously in that scheme, a is (()~*())* <trollface/>
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02:16:26 <pikhq> 19:44 < Pseudonym> I've almost finished reproducing the 6502 (from the transistor-level simulation) in logisim.
02:18:23 <pikhq> elliott_: Well, from the logic-gate level simulation you could put it into Minecraft.
02:18:56 <elliott_> there might be chunk limits on that though.
02:19:23 <pikhq> I suspect you could actually get it into a few chunks...
02:19:30 <pikhq> The CPU would tower from bedrock to sky, though.
02:20:07 <elliott_> I think the 6502 is rather more complex than could fit in a few chunks.
02:20:16 <elliott_> Consider that redstone is *rather* simplistic.
02:23:17 <elliott_> pikhq is secretly tarski's reincarnation
02:32:29 <pikhq> Hmm. Could you actually get a 6502 in 144x144x128?
02:33:34 <elliott_> pikhq: That's 2,654,208 blocks, but of course you need *space* to have redstone, a wire takes up a whole block.
02:33:46 <elliott_> You also need repeaters (newly-introduced), and who knows how many chunks they will go across?
02:34:05 <elliott_> Certainly the game only loads the nearest 81 chunks.
02:34:12 <elliott_> If you stood in the centre... well...
02:34:42 <elliott_> pikhq: Have you SEEN the size of the ALU? I haven't seen the CPU but it must be much bigger.
02:35:13 <elliott_> Perhaps it is POSSIBLE to crunch the 6502 into that space, although I doubt it. But I bet you'd need to essentially brute-force every possible configuration to crunch it that far down.
02:35:28 <elliott_> Oh, and that's ignoring memory. Which of course you need.
02:35:29 <pikhq> http://www.weihenstephan.org/~michaste/pagetable/6502/6502-die.jpg There's the entire thing.
02:35:45 <elliott_> pikhq: Yes. You will notice how far zoomed-out that is.
02:35:49 <Sgeo_> elliott_, maliciousness?
02:35:54 <elliott_> pikhq: Also, remember that redstone is significantly less compact than, you know, real electronics.
02:35:56 <Sgeo_> How is me using Ion3 malicious?
02:36:07 <pikhq> elliott_: So, we need to mod Minecraft. :P
02:36:09 <elliott_> Gates take up quite a few blocks.
02:36:20 <elliott_> pikhq: Mod it with a 6502 block.
02:39:11 * pikhq wishes that the pirateness allowed for updating Minecraft
02:39:27 * pikhq , alternately, wishes for $
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02:44:25 <Sgeo_> I think I like Clojure except for the Java stuff
02:48:02 <elliott_> pikhq: just redownload from s3
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02:48:08 <elliott_> pikhq: your non-login should still work
02:48:45 <pikhq> elliott_: That's just the launcher.
02:49:03 <elliott_> because mojang suck at security remember?
02:49:07 <elliott_> i.e. how you got it in the first place?
02:49:18 <elliott_> just minecraft.jar changes i think.
02:49:27 <elliott_> i don't THINK it modifies minecraft.jar to figure out whether you've paid
02:49:32 <elliott_> so just changing that in-place should work
02:50:07 <elliott_> pikhq: (keep a backup of ~/.minecraft just in case it doesn't...)
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02:51:31 <elliott_> pikhq: it's not piracy. it's direct from mojang itself!
02:51:46 <pikhq> java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: net.minecraft.client.MinecraftApplet
02:51:54 <pikhq> That's... Not good.
02:52:18 <elliott_> pikhq: Oh, are you still on the old launcher?
02:52:22 <elliott_> Probably it only works with the new one.
02:52:33 <elliott_> http://www.minecraft.net/download/minecraft.jar?v=1298517805112
02:53:18 <pikhq> ... Wait, I downloaded the wrong jar off of S3.
03:12:02 <pikhq> Hmm. Redstone delay line memory...
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03:30:53 <pikhq> It is possible to get stone before wood.
03:31:02 <pikhq> You just need to start by punching creepers.
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03:45:54 <zzo38> Hello. Are we boring around here at the current time?
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04:48:41 <Sgeo_> elliott and the clojure guys agree on something!
04:48:47 <Sgeo_> amalloy> in lieu of competing theories, i'm going to propose that it's because you're nuts
04:49:06 <quintopia> hello zzo38 . have a good old-fashioned boring night?
04:49:10 <zzo38> To use Checkout with graphics you would need to add some commands, for vector processing and so on?
04:49:39 <zzo38> quintopia: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout
04:51:37 <zzo38> In the "see also" section there is a link to a list of commands
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05:08:03 <zzo38> That is OK. However, what things do you know about GPU?
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05:15:06 <pikhq> Modern x86 processors have instructions that take 0 clock ticks.
05:15:09 <zzo38> Do all level 1 units share the instruction pointer? And is abstain/1 allowed with an else part or not?
05:15:16 <zzo38> pikhq: Which instructions?
05:15:44 <pikhq> zzo38: The set of x87 stack swapping instructions.
05:20:14 <pikhq> My linear algebra professor seems to love proofs.
05:20:48 <pikhq> So far, I have been assigned every single problem in the textbook that involves proving something.
05:21:29 <pikhq> Which is pretty fucking tedious in linear algebra. Like everything else.
05:23:04 <zzo38> asiekierka: I don't know why.
05:23:16 <asiekierka> well i know why and that's the sad part
05:23:24 <zzo38> How many programs have you written on the DSi?
05:24:12 <pikhq> Such a nice interpreter.
05:33:52 <quintopia> i downloaded the ffmpeg port for iOS to my ipod, but i can't use it because mobileterminal won't start :/
05:34:41 <coppro> A MegaHAL is 9000000000
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06:14:22 <zzo38> There are still some questions I have about Checkout
06:17:47 <oerjan> well you'll have to wait for ais523 for that
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07:01:08 <quintopia> coppro: 9000000000? that's over...
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16:02:50 <oerjan> ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(e)(!!:^^^^)))(((0)S)(e))(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(e)(!!:^!^))):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^
16:04:38 <oerjan> ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(!:^^^^)))(((0)S)())(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(!:^!^))):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^
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16:05:24 <oerjan> ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(e)(!!:^^^^)))(((0)S)(e))(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(e)(!!:^!^))):^^(^)(::::****)::**^^!^
16:06:23 <oerjan> ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(!:^^^^)))(((0)S)())(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(!:^!^))):^^(^)(::::****)::**^^!^
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16:07:47 <oerjan> ais523: ^ working two-counter machine with :()^!S
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16:08:08 <ais523> wow, this is getting ridiculous
16:08:15 <ais523> I take it the ! is absolutely required in that?
16:08:40 <oerjan> oh yes, it's the main mechanism for selecting cases in the tables
16:09:11 <oerjan> btw it prints a numeral in reversed binary
16:09:41 <ais523> it's obvious that both : and ^ are necessary, without : there's an entropy rule that lets you prove all programs halt, without ^ you can only ever run commands in the original program and so all programs must halt too
16:10:10 <oerjan> yes i wrote arguments for :()^ necessary in the new minimization section
16:10:28 <ais523> () is pretty obvious, given that none of the other commands can legally be run unless () has been run first
16:11:19 <oerjan> btw entropy = size of stack in characters + size of remaining program in characters + 3*number of a's
16:11:52 <oerjan> one time is included in the others
16:12:08 <ais523> you can just count a pair of parens as 1 rather than 2, then a doesn't need special-casing
16:12:45 <oerjan> you still need special casing to make it strictly reducing at each step
16:13:59 <oerjan> of course it's obvious you cannot run only a's indefinitely, so you will reduce eventually
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16:33:14 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.01: IPv4: 128k to China, 2k to Australia. IPv6: No allocations.
16:34:00 <ais523> how long will it last at current burn rate?
16:41:43 <Ilari> Current 30-day burn rate is: 541 517 addresses per day. At that rate, it will last about 4 months.
16:43:41 <zzo38> ais523: I have some questions about Checkout, can you answer me?
16:43:59 <ais523> the language isn't quite finalised yet
16:44:06 <Ilari> It will also be interesting what happens after it depletes. How much of the demand will shift to other regions? What will happen to the IPv6 demand?
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16:45:56 <zzo38> One question is, would some commands need to be added for graphics processing?
16:46:33 <ais523> graphics programming works in just the same way, just the driver works out the correct sequence of commands
16:46:45 <ais523> Checkout's very low level, it's like asking if you should add commands to asm for web development
16:47:20 <zzo38> O, it is just the driver that adds the graphics commands. If so, then it is OK, no commands should be added for that.
16:49:50 <zzo38> I also have idea for the binary representation of Checkout programs.
16:50:26 <zzo38> And what kind of profiles and stuff does a GPU commonly have?
16:50:59 <ais523> normally, I'd assume two profiles, one for the GPU, one for the CPU that gives it its instructions
16:51:48 <ais523> typically you'd get 32 or so level 1 subunits of a level 2 unit, and the number of level 2 subunits of a level 3 unit is kind-of complicated because in theory it can go up to 65536 or so on modern GPUs, but is often more efficient with a smaller number like 16
16:52:02 <ais523> umm, sorry, that's 3 of 4
16:52:18 <ais523> 2 of 3 goes up to 16 or so, and again is sometimes more efficient with a smaller number
16:56:42 <zzo38> Do all level 1 units share the same instruction pointer?
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16:57:20 <ais523> all units share the same instruction pointer, full stop
16:57:43 <ais523> but things like if and while can sort-of magically disappear the instruction pointer from some units and place it back later
16:58:02 <ais523> this sort of thing is why, for instance, you can't put nop/3 inside while/2, because it wouldn't make logical sense
17:00:19 <ais523> cheater hasn't said anything since I joined the channel
17:00:27 <zzo38> If you compile a Checkout program to run on GPU, can you do video rendering? (Of course the program would have to fit the specific GPU profiles and stuff, I guess)
17:00:34 <Ilari> BTW: Long-term growth rate of APNIC allocations seems to be about 19% per year.
17:00:46 <ais523> zzo38: I think it depends on the details of the driver
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17:01:41 <ais523> in fact, with some GPU architectures, you could just write to the right part of level 5 memory and the rendering would appear onscreen
17:01:48 <ais523> but that's massively system-specific
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17:07:22 <Ilari> At 10x expansion for IPv6 deployment + 19% per year, APNIC would allocate in about 6 years.
17:07:48 <ais523> hopefully they'll stop wasting IPv6 the way they wasted IPv4 at some point
17:08:11 <ais523> even if it 90% runs out before they wake up, there'll still be huge numbers of addresses left
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17:12:44 <Ilari> Reaching 90% depletion would mean expanding address usage from current by about 3.5 orders of magnitude.
17:12:44 <zzo38> ais523: However, assume now that I have no graphics card and just the GPU and am connecting everything myself. Would you know which GPU devices can be used and how to output to TV screen?
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17:13:07 <zzo38> I do suppose I can use macros to make the system-specific stuff for the output
17:13:17 <ais523> zzo38: GPUs which don't also contain a video card won't output to TV screens at all
17:13:32 <ais523> the vast majority of GPUs on existence are on video cards (= graphics cards) for that reason
17:14:38 <Ilari> Humans are very bad at comprehending huge numbers. And IPv6 involves huge numbers.
17:16:58 <zzo38> I mean, how would I do if I put the GPU and video output chip, and also a RAM to communicate with other devices (such as CPU) on a board by myself
17:17:55 * oerjan would hazard guess that is what a graphics card _is_
17:18:02 <ais523> you might want to look up pages about motherboard design; it's a pretty complicated subject, and one that I don't fully understand
17:18:19 <ais523> and designing just a graphics card is similar but on a smaller scale
17:18:37 <ais523> (it likely won't matter in practice, because the vast majority of GPUs you can buy are on graphics cards already)
17:20:42 <Ilari> How many IPv4 /16 or bigger allocations there are? Loads (something like 14 000 individual allocations, to lesser set of holders). Just how many IPv6 /19s there will be allocated? Currently there are 5.
17:22:05 <Ilari> The point is. IPv4 /16 isn't that large. But IPv6 /19 is frickin huge.
17:23:48 <Ilari> At even 75% utilization, that would mean 384M /48s.
17:23:50 <zzo38> I mean I want to buy one that is not on a graphics card already. I want to learn how to connect it myself
17:24:42 <olsner> I want to learn how to connect it *to* myself
17:25:40 <fizzie> olsner: You just unplug the optic nerve from your eye, and go from there.
17:25:59 <olsner> the fiber-optic nerve, mmmm
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17:29:47 <Ilari> Remember even if you equate /48s and individual IPv4 addresses (!) there are still 13 bits left over... And 13 bits is 8192 times.
17:31:27 <Ilari> And besides, mobile handsets will probably only eat one /64 per handset.
17:34:10 <Ilari> Even at 16 billion devices (easy to calculate and leaves some margin), that's a /30 total.
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17:35:11 <Ilari> Oh, and there are many more RIR-allocated /48s than there are IPv4 addresses total.
17:35:50 <Ilari> That count is quite rapidly approaching 10 billion.
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17:37:34 <Ilari> ... Currently at 9 623 680 978
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18:29:04 <oerjan> ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(!:^^^^)))(((0)S)())(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(!:^!^))):^^(^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)^!^
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18:54:27 <elliott> 19:30:53 <pikhq> It is possible to get stone before wood.
18:54:27 <elliott> 19:31:02 <pikhq> You just need to start by punching creepers.
18:54:33 <elliott> pikhq: you need wood to craft that into tnt.
18:54:36 <elliott> but you can get diamond before wood.
18:54:42 <elliott> just taunt creepers into exploding.
18:55:05 <elliott> 20:48:41 <Sgeo_> elliott and the clojure guys agree on something!
18:55:05 <elliott> 20:48:47 <Sgeo_> amalloy> in lieu of competing theories, i'm going to propose that it's because you're nuts
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19:11:35 <oerjan> elliott: new underload section, about minsky machine
19:11:45 <elliott> oerjan: cool! i'm working on an underload test suite myself, a la mycology
19:11:53 <elliott> oerjan: mostly because everyone gets concatenation the wrong way around, including me :D
19:12:11 <elliott> ^ul ((a)S)((b)S)((c)S)(^)(!^)*^
19:12:19 <elliott> ^ul ((a)S)((b)S)((c)S)(!^)(^)*^
19:14:04 <elliott> invalid instruction (GOOD)
19:15:08 <elliott> ^ul (( prop)*S)((DANGER))((OHNO)S)(!^)(^)*^
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19:15:44 <elliott> ^ul (( prop)*S)((DANGER))((OHNO)S)(!^)(~^)*^
19:15:47 <elliott> ^ul (( prop)*S)((DANGER))((OHNO)S)(!^)(~^)~*^
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19:18:54 <elliott> oerjan: btw challenge for you
19:19:40 <olsner> you have been challenged by elliott!
19:20:09 <elliott> oerjan: let p === q mean "p is semantically equivalent to q when run", i.e. (()!) === (). construct p such that (p)(p)* === (), (p)(p)^ === (p), and ()(p)^ === ()
19:22:02 <fizzie> A new challenger appears!
19:23:19 <elliott> is there a simple way to test two smith numerals for equality? :p
19:24:11 <oerjan> rephrasing (pp) === (), (p)p === (p), ()p === ()
19:24:25 <oerjan> elliott: there's one in the look-and-say program
19:24:27 <olsner> elliott: since they are evidently complicated enough to have their own name, probably not :P
19:24:35 <elliott> olsner: it's just what i'm calling church numerals in underload >:D
19:24:39 <elliott> since they're not actually church numerals
19:25:06 <fizzie> You should call them "the satanic numerals" or something, to emphasize that last point.
19:25:18 <oerjan> i better look up my las scratch file
19:25:33 <elliott> oerjan: for equality? or for the PEE CHALLENGE wait no
19:25:42 <olsner> necronomical numerals?
19:25:48 <elliott> oerjan: don't bother if the former
19:26:03 <elliott> i can't use anything but ()~*^!
19:26:12 <elliott> hmm, i don't explicitly test !, I should do that
19:26:28 <oerjan> ok it uses a* of course
19:26:50 <elliott> oerjan: can't use it then :D, unless I test a before :...
19:30:20 <elliott> oerjan: btw ()p === () is a bit misleading
19:30:27 <elliott> as in, it can end up with (()!) on the stack instead of ()
19:30:33 <elliott> because they are semantically equivalent
19:30:46 <elliott> similarly, (p)p doesn't have to push (p) directly, just equivalent
19:31:15 <oerjan> since (pp) cannot possibly be equal to ()
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19:32:09 <oerjan> incidentally that _is_ a solution to your challenge >:D
19:32:41 <elliott> oerjan: and p =/= null string
19:32:54 <elliott> i would tell you why, but it'd spoil my hidden intention >:D
19:33:04 <elliott> (given p, (p) = smith numeral -1)
19:33:06 <fizzie> I suspect you are up to: no good.
19:33:17 <elliott> fizzie: No good is what I am up to!
19:33:27 <oerjan> it shouldn't be equivalent to the null string either, i take
19:33:36 <elliott> because then (p) would just be 1
19:34:08 <elliott> oerjan: if it helps, (!())p can be whatever or even fail to terminate ;D
19:34:38 <elliott> since expecting ^-1 is probably overly-optimistic or something
19:39:00 <oerjan> the former is the same as pp === , no?
19:40:52 <elliott> oerjan: yes. oh, note that (pp)^ can fail if the rest of the stack is empty
19:41:36 <oerjan> yeah that's pretty essential
19:42:31 <oerjan> hm do we actually have anything fulfilling pp === without p ===
19:42:43 <elliott> or are you just wondering anyway?
19:43:03 <oerjan> um i was assuming non-empty stack here
19:43:20 <elliott> oerjan: maybe if p goes like
19:43:29 <elliott> "is the TOS my special marker? if so, pop it, otherwise, push it"
19:43:40 <elliott> that requires _two_ elements on stack
19:43:46 <elliott> oerjan: ok let's refine it even further:
19:43:57 <elliott> (smith numeral)pp === (smith numeral)
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19:44:50 <elliott> ok so is that identical to (p)
19:45:04 <elliott> (that's the (p)p === (p) rule)
19:45:14 <elliott> oerjan: does your equality tester require :?
19:45:16 <elliott> if not, i can use it, it seems
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19:47:57 <oerjan> it doesn't use !, incidentally
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19:48:17 <elliott> just wondering how to test : sanely...
19:48:36 <oerjan> that's entirely accidental
19:48:46 <elliott> (in a way that lets me print (BAD: ...) if, for instance, : just does nothing)
19:49:06 <oerjan> well you probably need ! to actually use this function
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19:50:37 <elliott> ((BAD: ...)S(:^):^)((GOOD: ...)S):!^
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19:51:21 <oerjan> are you sure infinite looping is a good idea, what if it doesn't flush output
19:51:58 <elliott> oerjan: it ends with a newline
19:52:05 <elliott> and it is a good idea, because the rest of the tests will go haywire if I don't
19:52:23 <elliott> I could execute an invalid instruction
19:52:28 <elliott> that'll probably go better
19:52:34 <oerjan> except it's somewhat unlikely (:^):^ will work if : doesn't
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19:54:45 <elliott> UNDEF: If the following pair of brackets has double-quotes before
19:54:45 <elliott> both brackets, your implementation doesn't support the (never-implemented)
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19:56:47 <elliott> that tswett, always cycling to brag with his hostname
19:58:17 <elliott> who wants to feed it to fungot :D
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20:00:18 <fizzie> I do have that standalone copy of the interp somewhere.
20:01:14 <elliott> fizzie: that would be cool :P
20:01:56 <elliott> hey look, oerjan is on reddit: "I got drunk one night, came back to my hotel and booked flights to the North pole.....the next day I was in Svalbard.....AmA"
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20:03:32 <elliott> fizzie: WE ARE EAGERLY AWAITING YOUR STANDARDS CHECKING
20:03:59 <fizzie> It probably dropped doing my recent, well, dropping.
20:04:20 <fizzie> Also I need to remove newlines from your thing, my thing uses \n as end-of-program. :p
20:04:50 <elliott> fizzie: The output of that will be uh... interesting...
20:05:02 <elliott> TEMPTED TO DISQUALIFY YOU FOR THAT
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20:07:15 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/burden -- the "bad insn" at the end could be just something I managed to accidentally add when removing newlines.
20:07:56 <elliott> fizzie: Probably you newline-terminated the file.
20:08:16 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway I refuse to accept your test results unless that cfunge was compiled with -DEXACT_BOUNDS.
20:08:25 <fizzie> Yes, it ends with SXNLX. :p
20:08:32 <elliott> Otherwise clearly your implementation of Funge-98 is non-conforming and the results are therefore not reliable.
20:08:48 <fizzie> I don't know how it was compiled; I didn't even know I had cfunge in path.
20:09:06 <fizzie> cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened p:64 c:32]
20:09:29 <elliott> fizzie: I would trust your results if they came from CCBI or Shiro, two RESPECTABLE implementations.
20:09:46 <Deewiant> One of which isn't available anywhere
20:10:47 <elliott> Deewiant: EXCUSE ME, I would of COURSE be DELIGHTED to provide fizzie with the REQUISITE IMPLEMENTATION MATERIALS to complete his testing procedure.
20:10:51 <elliott> But CCBI is ALSO ACCEPTABLE OF COURSE.
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20:11:39 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/burden-ccbi
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20:11:58 <elliott> Oh, well, you know those D compilers, they're quite buggy and whatnot.
20:11:59 <Deewiant> I thought you didn't trust CCBI binaries.
20:12:03 <elliott> Okay, okay, fine, you pass.
20:12:10 <elliott> Deewiant raises an IMPORTANT POINT.
20:12:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, you know, for a good cause.
20:12:32 <elliott> Deewiant: That was your opportunity to steal all his IRC logs, dude.
20:12:33 <tswett> If I were smart, I wouldn't cycle to show off my hostname.
20:13:03 <tswett> I kidnapped a Stanford student to get it, and if someone asked about my hostname, I would have to say so, and then I would get convicted of kidnapping.
20:13:03 <fizzie> "Why is my network so slow all of a sudden?"
20:15:59 <elliott> I'm surprised Deewiant hasn't copyrighted "GOOD:" and "UNDEF:".
20:18:28 -!- elliott has set topic: http://i.imgur.com/u3t65.jpg | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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20:55:34 <fizzie> The fungot, too. I had forgotten to bring it back.
20:55:35 <fungot> fizzie: this is the corresponding verb. not a tree anymore. it's 10am. :( i can pay my rent. good thing paper was originally yellow or it be it by now. :)
20:56:03 <fizzie> fungot: You can pay your rent? Well, it's about time! You're been mooching off us for ever.
20:56:03 <fungot> fizzie: i am your mother.") for online help, try /msg minion cliki? writing a cv in latex is not hard to do,
20:56:41 <zzo38> And also mismatched punctuation.
20:57:36 <fizzie> The Perl script version of his babbling does properly matching quotes and parentheses only, but I haven't implemented that feature into the Funge-98 version.
20:58:52 <fizzie> (Still, if he's writing a cv, maybe he's finally getting a job.)
20:59:43 <elliott> "good thing paper was originally yellow or it be it by now. :)"
20:59:52 <elliott> fizzie: I think fungot urinated on your stationary.
20:59:52 <fungot> elliott: ( lambda x x))
21:00:09 <fizzie> elliott: Very likely. He's worse than the cat that way.
21:00:43 <elliott> You so have to add Roomba control code to fungot.b98 now.
21:00:44 <fungot> elliott: don't you mean ( b 1) ( y f):: forall t. ( syntactic analysis is parsing.
21:01:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, we have one. I haven't really written anything for it, though.
21:01:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:03:39 <zzo38> Just something useful in case you want to print the date/time with leading zero for month, day, hours, minutes, etc, with TeX: \def\lznum#1{\ifnum#1<10 0\fi\number#1}
21:04:06 <zzo38> It is very simple even to figure out by yourself if you know about TeX.
21:04:14 <fizzie> Since it has been a topic here earlier: the latest C1x draft -- http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1548.pdf -- now has the diff-marks in the margin given against the final C99 spec. (Now if they'd get the diff-markers colored and add some sort of "jump to next change" hyperlinks, maybe a regular person could actually read it to check all the C99/C1x differences.)
21:04:47 <zzo38> What are differences between C89/C99, C99/C1x, C89/C1x?
21:05:13 <zzo38> Is there a full list including the details?
21:05:31 <elliott> Yes, it's called a copy of diff and the two specifications.
21:05:37 <elliott> Sorry,t hree specifications.
21:06:01 <elliott> 13:04:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't tell Quadrescence!
21:06:03 <zzo38> elliott: Did they just take a copy of the old specification and change it? If so, then it would work, but if they rewrote it then such things as that will not work.
21:06:15 <Deewiant> zzo38: http://home.datacomm.ch/t_wolf/tw/c/c9x_changes.html has a reasonable summary of C89->C99 changes
21:06:30 <zzo38> Also, if they changed some section numbers, it might also do some things wrong.
21:06:32 <elliott> zzo38: Probably they maintain it as a diff, by hand, manually.
21:06:57 <fizzie> C1x is based on the C99 document; I don't know how much that is the case when it comes to C89/C99. The published PDFs are not so very nicely diffable, though.
21:07:15 <elliott> [[In what follows, I'll refer to C as it is defined by its original ISO standard (ISO/IEC 9899:1990, including technical corrigenda TC1 and TC2) as C89, the language as defined by C89 plus the normative addendum 1 is referred to as C94.]]
21:07:20 <elliott> Regretting not buying C94 at this point.
21:07:20 <zzo38> Do they have published .txt files?
21:07:59 <fizzie> I don't think so, at least not officially.
21:08:36 <zzo38> elliott: There is no DNS on my computer for home.datacomm.ch
21:08:36 <zzo38> So, it will not load.
21:08:46 <fizzie> But as was mentioned, at least the C1x draft now has margin-markers like | for changed/new text and * for deleted text; perhaps some sort of a THING could extract only those from it.
21:08:47 <elliott> zzo38: Err, you add DNS entries manually now?
21:08:50 <elliott> And Deewiant is the one who linked that.
21:09:05 <Ilari> Trying to launch space shuttle. The range seems to have some trouble.
21:09:20 <Ilari> (Some computer trouble)
21:10:49 <fizzie> A dude at comp.lang.c also recently made a hyperlinked version of the C89-standard draft that has been floating everywhere around the internets with the name "ansi.c.txt", at http://www.bsb.me.uk/ansi-c/ansi-c -- but since it's a draft, it's not exactly identical to the real C89.
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21:15:27 <fizzie> The C1x draft itself has a summary of "major changes" for both C1x and C99.
21:16:22 <Ilari> Two minutes remaining to fix that problem.
21:17:28 <fizzie> I see they've added a _Noreturn function-specifier (syntactically speaking same sort of thing as "inline").
21:17:50 <Ilari> They fixed it. Counting down from 5 minutes.
21:18:19 <fizzie> Probably just rebooted it. :p
21:18:37 <fizzie> Then were all "Oh, now it worked. Weird."
21:18:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:19:09 <zzo38> Something was broken... Maybe it is fixed now I don't know
21:20:07 <fizzie> Ilari: Is this the Discovery last flight thing?
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21:24:49 <release> /nick release != /nickserv release
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21:26:12 <fizzie> Release early, release often.
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21:33:19 <elliott> "Instead of focusing on why an increasing number of people abhor the Batman's odious, xenophobic animadversions and are looking for alternatives, like the truth, I would like to remind people that the Batman's apparatchiks can be stereotyped as evil tools of prepackaged political ideology and lecherous, grotty stumblebums to boot." --Muammar al-Gaddafi, professional nutcase
21:33:31 -!- elliott has set topic: The Batman's Apparatchiks | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:34:19 <fizzie> Is that some sort of an expression, like "the bee's knees"?
21:34:47 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/frsee/90_of_libya_in_rebel_hands_qaddafi_is_left_only/c1i6a10
21:35:00 <elliott> [[Even the Batman's slaves don't care much for its political objectives; they simply wish to associate with other tendentious desperados and capitalize on our needs and vulnerabilities. Although the Batman won't admit it, it's a financial predator who preys on the elderly, the gullible, and the vulnerable. The Batman seeks their assets to support its own lavish existence. Keep that in mind while I state the following: Every so often, it tries ext
21:35:01 <elliott> irpating the very things that I cherish. Whenever it gets caught doing so it raises a terrific hullabaloo calculated to practice human sacrifice on a grand scale in some sort of otiose death cult.]]
21:35:01 <elliott> The Batman seeks their assets to support its own lavish existence.
21:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> "Very easy & funny way to prove Pythagorean Theorem, i.e., a^2 + b^2 =c^2" http://themetapicture.com/media/why-couldnt-i-have-been-shown-this-in-maths-class.gif
21:36:02 <elliott> "If one accepts the framework I've laid out here, it follows that if we don't raise several issues about the Batman's vile wheelings and dealings that are frequently missing from the drivel that masquerades for discourse on this topic then the Batman will intensify race hatred. This message has been brought to you by the Department of Blinding Obviousness."
21:36:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BEST TROLL EVER.
21:36:15 <elliott> Yes they are, noncontinuous functions don't exist.
21:37:14 <elliott> "I find it necessary, if I am to meet my reader on something like a common ground of understanding, to point out that the Batman's general prostration before prætorianism confirms that in a the Batman-led society, people who reach out to the poor, the marginalized, and those unfortunate enough to have been labeled as inarticulate by the Batman's propaganda machine will be suppressed, vilified, hated, imprisoned, exiled, and killed. But you knew
21:37:14 <elliott> that already. So let me add that the spectrum of views between Jacobinism and materialism is not a line but a circle at which neo-malicious, salacious undesirables and unctuous hedonists meet. To properly place the Batman somewhere in that spectrum one needs to realize that the Batman maintains that corporatism is a noble goal."
21:37:17 <elliott> WHAT COMIC BOOKS IS THIS GUY READING
21:37:53 <elliott> I think he's saying that America is the Batman.
21:39:01 <elliott> "And what I think is this: The Batman's terrorist organization (motto: "Replicate the most morally repugnant structures of contemporary life") is as squalid as squalid can be."
21:39:05 <elliott> I... don't recall that motto.
21:39:27 <Zwaarddijk> when did Mencius Moldbug become a big thing?
21:39:35 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: He's a big thing?
21:39:57 <elliott> Hmm, maybe Moldbug _is_ Gaddafi.
21:40:05 <elliott> It's... it's a really tempting proposition.
21:40:08 <Zwaarddijk> because it looks like Moldbug's weird humor
21:40:28 <elliott> Moldbug is a strange guy; I think we need to keep him around just to have a baseline to measure strangeness by.
21:40:31 <elliott> Kind of like the kilogram.
21:40:32 <fizzie> elliott: Batman is all about not using guns ever, and replicating repugnant structures.
21:40:41 <Zwaarddijk> Moldbug isn't that excessively out there
21:40:57 <Zwaarddijk> he seems mostly just to be some kind of guy that doesn't take things too seriously
21:41:04 <Zwaarddijk> and is willing to admit that things probably are wrong
21:41:14 <fizzie> Batman: "Better put 5 cents in the meter."
21:41:15 <fizzie> Robin: "No policeman's going to give the Batmobile a ticket."
21:41:15 <fizzie> Batman: "This money goes to building better roads. We all must do our part."
21:41:22 <fizzie> -- see, it must be that sort of thing.
21:41:47 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: You can only be so sane when you're an anti-democratic royalist and simultaneously support Austrian economics.
21:42:05 <elliott> Oh look, he's made a post that seems to mention Gaddafi.
21:42:22 <elliott> I'd say it's "about" that, but I don't think there's ever enough material on any subject to fill an entire UR post.
21:42:23 <Zwaarddijk> but ... anyways, he's a thing in that I've run into at least two persons today even aware of him in entirely different online communities
21:42:32 <fizzie> Dick: "Gosh, Economics is sure a dull subject."
21:42:33 <fizzie> Bruce: "Oh, you must be jesting, Dick. Economics dull? The glamour, the romance of commerce... Hmm. It's the very lifeblood of our country's society."
21:42:38 <Zwaarddijk> if you had reacted with "Moldbug - who?" he'd be less of a thing
21:42:56 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: No, no, I am definitely knowing of things that are not things at all.
21:43:01 <fizzie> (I ran across some sort of "Batman lecturing Robin" quote page when trying to find the most Batmanish thing.)
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21:43:14 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Actually I think my first exposure to him may have in fact been via Stanislav.
21:43:30 <elliott> (Datskovskiy, that is; relevant overblown rants at http://www.loper-os.org/.)
21:43:31 <Zwaarddijk> but uh, I dunno, the text quoted above somehow
21:43:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/
21:48:30 <elliott> That's just the mo(u)ld on the bug.
21:48:41 <elliott> The haze settles after a while.
21:50:05 <Mathnerd314> hmm... should I read it now, when I'm sick and my mental defenses against whatever crap he's saying are lower?
21:50:23 <elliott> He's not mad, just strange. Okay, he's mad. But he's not mad mad.
21:51:03 <zzo38> I want to make a Magic: the Gathering card like: "Make X copies of target spell controlled by opponent. Targets and controller of copies are the same as the original."
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21:52:27 <elliott> eurasienne: Do I pronounce that "eurasian"?
21:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> No, you pronounce it like "eurasian" but with an "eh" rather than an "ah"?
21:55:46 <elliott> this channel is about esoteric programming languages. hello.
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21:56:36 <elliott> "Peace in Libya is quite the remote prospect, but at least we'll get some good television out of it. It's a pity that the dramatic events so far have been so poorly recorded." --Moldbug
21:57:13 <zzo38> quintopia: Hall of Mirrors?
22:02:48 <pikhq_> zzo38: I'd like to see someone copy that spell. :)
22:03:16 <elliott> pikhq_: How did you go about learning Japanese, anyway?
22:03:41 <pikhq_> elliott: Formal classes for 4 years, at which point I had about as much competence as a 5 year old (if that).
22:04:21 <pikhq_> elliott: Then, I learned the kanji from "Remembering the Kanji", and read a lot.
22:04:59 <elliott> Formal classes sound like such a pain. :(
22:05:04 <pikhq_> elliott: Which, well, works a heck of a lot better.
22:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, are formal classes just "phrase books but in class"?
22:05:13 <elliott> (Not the voice of someone with a lot of dedication.)
22:05:29 <elliott> pikhq_: I doubt learning kanji and then just plunging into books would work ...
22:05:54 <pikhq_> elliott: A friend of mine started learning Japanese at about the time I got back into studying it...
22:05:56 <elliott> Remembering the Kanji looks like good shit, though.
22:06:17 <pikhq_> elliott: He learned the kanji, *spent a week on grammar*, then plunged into manga. :P
22:07:05 <elliott> pikhq_: Kanji first sounds like something that could work for me and also might not ... on the one hand, it wouldn't require much effort or commitment, just basically-mindless memorisation... but on the other hand, it'd feel like a huge waste of time if I couldn't even express basic sentences for a long time.
22:07:23 <pikhq_> elliott: BTW, might I recommend http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/ ? Khatzumoto is awesome, though slightly insane. :P
22:07:39 <elliott> It's related to Japan. Insanity is a given.
22:08:03 <pikhq_> elliott: I can guarantee that after a couple days of RTK, you'll be better-off than your typical first-year Japanese student.
22:08:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:08:23 * elliott reads http://www.enemieslist.net/japanese/ again for inspiration
22:08:35 <elliott> "Iraqi war prisoners are often forced to major in Japanese. The term "Holocaust" comes from the Latin roots "Holi" and "Causm", meaning "to major in Japanese".."
22:08:38 <pikhq_> (formal classes work more poorly for Japanese than most other languages, simply because kanji present a serious barrier-to-entry.)
22:09:10 <pikhq_> (not to say they work any good, anyways)
22:09:11 <elliott> "Japanese vocabulary is determined by throwing tiny pieces of sushi at a dart board with several random numbers attatched to it. The numbers are then fed into a machine. The machine is then destroyed."
22:09:50 <elliott> "Katakana are used only to spell out foreign words in a thick, crippling japanese accent, so that you'll have no idea what you're saying even though it's in English. However, if you remember one simple rule for Katakana, you'll find reading Japanese much easier: Whenever something is written in Katakana, it's an English word! (note: Katakana is also used for non-english foreign words. And sound effects, and Japanese words)."
22:10:05 <pikhq_> Oh, and after RTK the hiragana and katakana will probably come really, really easily.
22:10:27 <elliott> "Kanji are letters that were stolen from China. Every time the Japanese invaded China (which was very often) they'd just take a few more letters, so now they have an estimated 400 gazillion of them. Kanji each consist of several "strokes", which must be written in a specific order or Japanese people will laugh at you. Each character conveys a specific meaning, like "horse" (note that the character for horse could also mean "car". Or "police offic
22:10:30 <pikhq_> What with both kana systems being highly-mutated kanji used for phonetic value only.
22:10:31 <elliott> I forgot how amusing this article is.
22:10:46 <elliott> "Kanji can also be combined to form new words. For example, if you combine the Kanji for "small", and "woman", you get the word "carbeurator"."
22:11:18 <elliott> pikhq_: The one thing about Japanese that's putting me off learning a bit is the retarded politeness stuff...
22:12:08 <elliott> pikhq_: Although I suppose I could just pretend to be from Hokkaido</JOKE STOLEN FROM YOU>
22:12:31 <pikhq_> elliott: If it makes you feel better, the distinction between plain and polite form is entirely regular and fairly easy, and the distinction between polite form and formal forms *doesn't come up much*.
22:12:49 <pikhq_> Not to mention that native speakers fuck it up all the time.
22:13:13 <elliott> pikhq_: It should be mentioned at this point that I forget that the word "please" exists on a regular basis.
22:13:14 <pikhq_> (it's, a dying feature of Japanese grammar, near as I can tell.)
22:14:27 <elliott> pikhq_: OTOH Japanese sounds easier than Finnish which is a major plus. (HELLO tswett)
22:14:42 <elliott> <tswett> Sorry, I forgot how to say "Hello" in Finnish. I think it's 25 letters long.
22:14:57 <pikhq_> You'll probably appreciate the regularity.
22:15:34 <elliott> pikhq_: I, er, kind of plan to speak in my own personal polysynthetic dialect.
22:16:23 <elliott> "The Japanese have what could be called an "interesting" grammatical structure, but could also be called "confusing", "random", "bogus" or "evil". To truly understand this, let's examine the differences between Japanese and English grammar.
22:16:24 <elliott> Same Sentence In Japanese:
22:16:24 <elliott> School Jane To Went Monkey Apple Carbeurator."
22:16:54 <elliott> "What's more, the Japanese also do not have any words for "me", "them", "him, or "her" that anyone could use without being incredibly insulting (the Japanese word for "you", for example, when written in kanji, translates to "I hope a monkey scratches your face off"). Because of this, the sentence "He just killed her!" and "I just killed her!" sound exactly the same, meaning that most people in Japan have no idea what is going on around them at an
22:16:54 <elliott> y given moment. You are supposed to figure these things out from the "context", which is a German word meaning "you're screwed"."
22:17:06 <elliott> pikhq_: Please tell me that "X did it" is a common Japanese defence in court.
22:17:17 <elliott> "By X do you mean X, or X?" "Definitely X."
22:17:35 <pikhq_> ジェインが学校へ行った。(Jane [subj.] school [to] go[past]) There, actually correct.
22:18:01 <elliott> What's with the brackets around [to]?
22:18:31 <pikhq_> It's a grammatical particle, and I don't feel comfortable not leaving it in brackets.
22:18:52 <elliott> pikhq_: Should I avoid trying to use an IME to "start" with?
22:19:14 <elliott> I was considering adding a Japanese keyboard layout right now as a sort of reminder-motivator, but then I realised that I'd have to type in semi-romaji or whatever.
22:19:23 <elliott> Which might not gel so well with the learning kanji thing.
22:19:51 <pikhq_> elliott: Most Japanese people use an IME and type in rōmaji.
22:20:08 <zzo38> In some IME you can switch between romaji method or kana method.
22:20:18 <elliott> pikhq_: But does that Remembering the Kanji thing have the romaji as part of the educationamationalearnin'?
22:20:19 <pikhq_> Yeah, but who the fuck uses the kana layout?
22:20:28 <elliott> Or is it just learning the translations? Well, I guess that would be stupid.
22:20:30 <pikhq_> elliott: Remembering the Kanji doesn't have any of the readings.
22:20:41 <elliott> pikhq_: ...meaning that an IME is going to be a bit useless, no?
22:21:00 <elliott> pikhq_: I won't bother setting one up, then.
22:21:34 <pikhq_> It's more about putting you into a situation analogous to a Mandarin speaker learning Japanese, then to have you Finish Learning All There Is To Know About Kanji™.
22:21:54 <elliott> pikhq_: I DO NOT LIKE THESE TRADEMARK CAMELCASINGS
22:22:20 <pikhq_> With the funny squiggles having actual meaning to you, you need only care about the language, instead of getting hung up for years on funny squiggles.
22:22:39 <elliott> pikhq_: Still, I have this /slight/ delusion that being able to produce Japanese on a whim might help me learn better than just consuming, and writing kanji sounds like a bitch.
22:22:49 <elliott> (Also paper doesn't have you to correct my hee-LARIOUS mistakes.)
22:23:00 <elliott> So that's a bit of a bummer.
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22:23:34 <pikhq_> elliott: Read AJATT, for Khatzumoto is one awesomely crazy man.
22:23:51 <zzo38> Read some Japanese manga book and learn about Washizu mahjong.
22:23:59 <pikhq_> elliott: He went from scratch to fluency in 1.5 years.
22:24:05 <elliott> pikhq_: I don't see the direct link between that and learning the romaji :-P
22:24:22 <pikhq_> elliott: You're only going to realistically be using romaji for typing.
22:24:35 <pikhq_> Unless you do formal classes!
22:24:45 <elliott> pikhq_: Now let me think ... what would I want to use Japanese for...
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22:24:49 <elliott> pikhq_: AH YES: Reading and typing.
22:25:04 <zzo38> Also some IME allows customizing romaji input method, in addition to allowing you to switch to kana method as well.
22:25:12 <elliott> It's not like I'll be writing letters in Japanese.
22:25:28 <pikhq_> elliott: You'll probably end up writing a lot of kanji, anyways.
22:25:42 <elliott> pikhq_: But I dislike paper!
22:26:17 <zzo38> elliott: Then write it on the whiteboard.
22:26:21 <elliott> Looks like you don't add an IME by adding a keyboard layout in Ubuntu. GNOME intuitivity!
22:26:52 <elliott> pikhq_: Err. Chinese Pinyin?
22:26:56 <elliott> Is that the input method I need? :P
22:27:11 <olsner> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
22:27:21 <zzo38> No. You need to make up your own input method.
22:28:11 <pikhq_> elliott: Depends, do you want to learn Pǔtōnghuà?
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22:28:22 <elliott> pikhq_: Unless this is a trick question, no.
22:28:27 <elliott> Perhaps I don't have the moonspeak IME.
22:28:35 <pikhq_> (that's Pinyin for "Mandarin")
22:28:49 <pikhq_> Erm, well, obviously, pinyin-transcribed Mandarin.
22:29:03 <elliott> pikhq_: So hey, what spaced-repetition-system thing is good for Linux.
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22:30:40 <elliott> Meh, CBA getting an IME set up right now.
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22:31:12 <elliott> I was just thinking about Paintfuck yesterday actually.
22:31:36 <elliott> pikhq_: Man, Anki looks like a pain to set up.
22:31:51 <whtspc> im actually doing nothing with programming nowadays
22:32:14 <whtspc> just testing irc program on my phone
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22:33:15 <pikhq_> elliott: Uh? apt-get install?
22:33:24 <elliott> pikhq_: No, I meant the actual cards.
22:34:02 <elliott> Oh, there's this download thing where the first entry is Heisig's Remember the Kanji (RTK) 1+3.
22:34:30 <elliott> pikhq_: Is it worth learning kana any time soon?
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22:35:19 <pikhq_> elliott: Either do it right before RTK or right after.
22:35:38 <elliott> pikhq_: It sounds boring, so let's say right after.
22:36:03 <elliott> http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-khatzumoto-no-for-real ;; man, this guy has some dedication.
22:36:04 <pikhq_> Just learning kana stops you from doing a lot of pronunciation fuckups.
22:36:12 <elliott> I dunno if I can spend that much time a day learning :P
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22:36:20 <elliott> pikhq_: Mm... maybe I will then.
22:37:22 <pikhq_> Granted, mostly because it stops you from trying to apply English rules to it. :P
22:39:26 <pikhq_> My soul dies every time someone says "Cone itchy wa."
22:39:27 <zzo38> Learn kana and kanji
22:39:56 * elliott installs Japanese support.
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22:43:29 <elliott> pikhq_: is japanese sov or osv?
22:44:10 <pikhq_> With every part of the sentence optional.
22:44:29 <elliott> pikhq_: I bored am word orders conventional such by.
22:44:41 <elliott> ("I am bored by such conventional word orders.")
22:45:35 <pikhq_> Also, because of the whole grammatical particles thing, OSV is valid, if motherfucking weird sounding some 90% of the time.
22:45:57 <pikhq_> No, make that 99.99999999%.
22:46:18 <elliott> [[This same intricate labor-division-responsibility-dissipation system continues today, allowing Western societies to commit acts of violent cruelty both at home and abroad, and then shrug it off and act helpless.
22:46:19 <elliott> Consider the steak. One person kills an animal inhumanely, another cuts up her body parts, another packs them, another ships them, another stocks them, another buys them, another cooks them, another eats them.]]
22:46:19 <elliott> How much annoying veg/etarian/eganism is there in a typical AJATT post? :-P
22:46:35 <Zwaarddijk> isn't japanese predominantly topic-comment, rather than SOV
22:46:40 <pikhq_> elliott: Not much, and he loves steak.
22:46:47 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: OH SURE MISTER LINGUIST
22:46:54 <elliott> JUST COME AND SHIT ON OUR PARTY
22:47:10 <Zwaarddijk> shitting on parties is a favourite hobby of mine
22:47:29 <Zwaarddijk> why else would I regularly sign up on christian forums, and point out minor things they're wrong about (instead of the big things)
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22:49:27 <elliott> pikhq_: Pfft, my valiant efforts to make my computer talk to me in a language I can't speak a single word of have been thwarted by Ubuntu's user-friendliness.
22:49:36 <elliott> Specifically despite installing all the support for it the Japanese option remains greyed-out.
22:49:55 <pikhq_> elliott: FURIȲÔ, KORIȲA.
22:50:58 <pikhq_> Oh, yeah, OVS order isn't too unusual. Kinda suggests a lot of emphasis on the action in question, though.
22:51:09 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq_: I have a pretty bad case of dickitis
22:51:20 <pikhq_> I suppose it'd be pretty off in formal writing, though.
22:51:43 <pikhq_> Zwaarddijk: Typically.
22:52:11 <elliott> all _real_ languages are polysynthetic and have totally free word order
22:52:26 <pikhq_> Say, 90% of the time? But sticking the topic at the end is valid and idiomatic, sometimes.
22:53:34 <elliott> pikhq_, why doesn't my computer want to talk to me in Japanese.
22:54:21 <pikhq_> elliott: His Imperial Majesty did nasty things to it.
22:54:29 <zzo38> In America, you kill yourself. In Soviet Russia, yourself kill YOU!!
22:54:52 <elliott> It's just that I have to use its stupid dragging interface.
22:54:56 <elliott> Mere CLICKING is unacceptable.
22:55:27 <elliott> pikhq_: So, er, if you don't hear back from me when I disconnect, it's because I logged in again, couldn't figure anything out, and am reinstalling my OS.
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22:58:21 <zzo38> You didn't try using the command shell?
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23:01:01 <elliott> pikhq_: Oh god everything is in Japanese what have I done
23:01:38 <elliott> pikhq_: Wait, wait, I bet I can fool myself into thinking this is a good idea.
23:01:49 <elliott> pikhq_: BY LEARNING HOW TO USE MY COMPUTER LIKE THIS I WILL BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ALL THE WORDS MEAN -- HAHA
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23:03:02 <elliott> I have a feeling that pikhq_ is going to start responding to everything I say in Japanese.
23:04:01 <elliott> pikhq_: I have no idea how to use my computer any more.
23:04:15 <elliott> Although I'm currently trying to disable the menu icons just to spite myself.
23:04:27 <elliott> "Feb24(KANJI) (Thu) PM11:35" what kind of fucked-up date-time format is that
23:04:49 <pikhq_> That is really fucked up.
23:05:15 <zzo38> elliott: Stupid, perhaps? They should use number and kanji for Japanese
23:05:40 <elliott> Oh, right. It's trying to format a UK date format... in Japanese.
23:06:27 <pikhq_> The proper date format would be 2月24日11:35.
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23:08:08 <elliott> pikhq_: Quick, spin me some bullshit about how not knowing how to use my computer will help me learn Japanese.
23:08:28 <pikhq_> elliott: If you know not your computer, what else shall you do with your time?
23:08:49 <elliott> pikhq_: Use my computer in hilariously comical ways that emulate failure.
23:09:37 <elliott> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-panel/+bug/478980 "It's not a bug, it's a feature."
23:11:28 <elliott> pikhq_: {+~t}--,\"-- means Server, right? ({} is grouping, symbols represent what they look like, ~x represents x flipped)
23:11:41 <elliott> (i.e. grouping N symbols to represent one letter.)
23:13:11 <tswett> elliott: the Finnish for "hello" is actually "päistääjyppiloidaruustanen".
23:13:27 <tswett> So, 26, if I count correctly.
23:13:37 <tswett> The Finns here can attest.
23:14:07 <zzo38> Your writing is not very clear it is difficult to read the words like {+~t}--,\"--
23:14:22 <elliott> zzo38: Well, -- is just a long dash.
23:14:28 <tswett> Actually, that's "hi". "Hello" is just "päistääjyppiloidaruusta".
23:14:35 <elliott> {+~t} means one symbol that looks like a + sign with a backwards t following it, where the tail goes underneath the +.
23:14:55 <elliott> ,\" means a forward swoop like a comma, then the same backwards, with two little ` ticks after it.
23:15:24 <tswett> elliott: gee, let me look those up for you.
23:15:28 <zzo38> OK, yes I think that does mean "server". At least it sounds like the English word "server", I think....
23:15:41 <elliott> Oh, it is just a transliteration?
23:15:51 <elliott> That would explain why it's so much easier to type out than the other ones.
23:16:09 <zzo38> Yes I think in that case it is.
23:16:15 <tswett> The first one is... um.
23:16:17 <elliott> = \pi on top, (P with - on top) and man holding up flat plate on bottom. What kanji is that?! pikhq_?!
23:16:44 <tswett> Okay, the word is サーバー.
23:17:02 <tswett> It's katakana, that's why it wasn't in the hiragana table.
23:17:19 <elliott> <elliott> = \pi on top, (P with - on top) and man holding up flat plate on bottom. What kanji is that?! pikhq_?!
23:17:47 <tswett> elliott: can you not look these up somehow?
23:17:58 <elliott> tswett: Probably, but where is the fun in that?
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23:19:16 <tswett> Gregor has come to save you.
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23:20:53 <pikhq> サーバー is most definitely server.
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23:21:23 <pikhq> sâhầ is how I'd romanise it.
23:21:34 <pikhq> Most people would go with "sābā".
23:22:00 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> = \pi on top, (P with - on top) and man holding up flat plate on bottom. What kanji is that?! pikhq_?!
23:23:17 <elliott> It's basically a 2x2 grid.
23:23:26 <elliott> Top-right looks like the pi symbol.
23:23:36 <elliott> Bottom-left loops like a "P" rendered digitally i.e. no curves, with a - line on top of it.
23:23:45 <elliott> Bottom-right looks like a swishy "X" with a line above it.
23:25:13 <zzo38> I can explain the reading of the word for "server": The first symbol is sound "sa", the second symbol after the long dash is sound "ba" (without two short dot would be "ha"), and the long dash is long vowel mark making the preceding vowel sound longer.
23:25:27 <elliott> By grid I don't mean it has any separators.
23:25:33 <elliott> I'm just saying that it loks like four symbols in a grid to me.
23:26:02 <pikhq> Yeah, not helping.
23:26:03 <zzo38> Some kanji has two or three or four parts arranged horizontal of vertical.
23:26:23 <elliott> pikhq: http://ompldr.org/vN2p1MQ
23:26:29 <zzo38> You can also look it up in WWWJDIC, can look up words and kanji.
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23:29:12 <elliott> =, pi, P with line, X with line!
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23:29:41 <elliott> How is this not CLEAR to you.
23:30:20 <pikhq> Yes, it is. I parse that as 言 + 几 + 又.
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23:30:54 <Sgeo> peer really gets angry at calling others "noob"
23:30:56 <pikhq> And 言 is itself 口 + some lines.
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23:31:49 <Gregor> Just like 'E' is 'F' + a line
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23:56:01 <Gregor> Oy, prgmr is being made of fail tonight.
23:56:16 <elliott> Not as much fail as you, Guest57906.
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