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00:07:36 <elliott> pikhq: "protests spread to North Korea"
00:07:47 <elliott> This should be interesting.
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00:34:47 <elliott> Hahahahaha: "But will the NK military pull a Libya, and refuse to fire on their own countrymen? Here's hoping."
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00:45:16 <pikhq> elliott: Isn't the NK military essentially the able-bodied male population of NK?
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01:27:36 <Sgeo> And I get into an argument with #clojure
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02:02:04 <Guest24601> I think I'll just stick with this for a while.
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02:27:04 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, looks like RTK volume II contains the readings.
02:27:14 <elliott> Oh: "The book is mainly focused on the Chinese readings, however one chapter does suggest a mnemonic device for learning the Japanese readings."
02:27:20 <pikhq> Yeah, but I dislike it.
02:36:55 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, sounds crappy. :p
02:37:45 <elliott> pikhq: How's the "Remembering the Kana" book though? Seems like a bit of an overkill for kana.
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03:13:42 <pikhq> elliott: Overkill.
03:13:51 <pikhq> elliott: Shouldn't take you more than a couple days.
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03:40:58 <elliott> can you believe i am still not up to date with homestuck dear god this is the longest comic ever
03:42:32 <oerjan> YOU MUST NOT KNOW MEZZACOTTA
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03:43:28 <elliott> oerjan: maybe not, but this thing is longer than IWC :)
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03:43:45 <elliott> some 4000 panels. it's hard to map that directly to a traditional webcomic, really
03:43:47 <oerjan> well iwc is shorter than calvin and hobbes
03:43:51 <elliott> with the narration and pesterlogs and whatnot
03:44:02 <elliott> oerjan: nobody reads calvin in hobbes in a long chunk. ...do they?
03:44:07 <elliott> can't imagine archive binding c&h
03:44:12 <oerjan> (dmm has that as a (hopefully partial) goal
03:44:31 <oerjan> to reach than number of comics
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03:44:43 <elliott> what do you mean hopefully partial?
03:45:16 <elliott> oerjan: but does iwc have flash games instead of comics sometimes i think not.
03:45:18 <elliott> (plot-relevant ones, that is)
03:45:26 <elliott> (ok so they're kind of linear usually)
03:45:39 <elliott> oerjan: also do you know if DMM has any plans to up the size of IWC comics? they're kind of small on this screen
03:45:51 <elliott> the current ones are bigger than the first one, anyway, if only marginally
03:46:04 <elliott> also it looks like he hasn't changed his text renderer in 9 years
03:46:11 <oerjan> i recall casey and andy had 666 comics as a goal, and stopped there
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03:46:27 <oerjan> (there was a long hiatus before he managed to end it, though)
03:47:28 <oerjan> also things like garfield and dilbert are technically archived on the web
03:47:44 <elliott> garfield doesn't have a plotline.
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03:48:06 <oerjan> well actually calvin and hobbes too, i recall, it is larson who is against being on the web
03:48:07 <elliott> anyway 4000 anythings is a lot.
03:48:23 <oerjan> (larson = the far side)
03:48:23 <elliott> oerjan: yeah his open letter on that is a bit stuck-up
03:48:33 <oerjan> watterson is just against other merchandise
03:48:35 <elliott> YOU'RE KILLING MY BABY BY SHARING IT WITH PEOPLE!
03:48:43 <elliott> You think I drew a comic so that people could READ it?
03:50:12 <oerjan> <elliott> also it looks like he hasn't changed his text renderer in 9 years <-- i believe he uses a consistent text style for each single character
03:50:26 <elliott> oerjan: err, i think we have a word for that; "font"
03:50:42 <elliott> oerjan: i just meant the antialiasing is /identical/
03:50:58 <elliott> which is quite interesting, that e.g. GIMP and its dependencies haven't changed its text-rendering algorithms in 9 years
03:51:00 * oerjan is a happy non-font-fanatic
03:51:14 <elliott> i wasn't making a great statement about it, just saying it's interesting from a software POV ;D
03:51:31 <elliott> considering that a 2002 linux desktop would not exactly have much font antialiasing, you'd have expected the algorithms to change at least slightly
03:53:47 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, 2002 we had Freetype still.
03:54:01 <oerjan> draak has a different font though, and the deaths of course often speak in CAPITALS
03:54:03 <elliott> pikhq: Freetype's greyscale rendering algorithm is identical to what it was in 2002.
03:54:16 <pikhq> elliott: ... That is quite surprising.
03:54:33 <elliott> hmm IWC's hinting looks like either slight or medium
03:54:38 <elliott> hard to tell at that small a size
03:54:45 <pikhq> So, Freetype has only improved hinting and subpixel antialiasing?
03:54:47 <elliott> http://irregularwebcomic.net/comics/irreg2951.jpg
03:54:48 <elliott> http://irregularwebcomic.net/comics/irreg0001.jpg
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03:59:16 <pikhq> Man. Delay line memory in Minecraft is entirely practical.
03:59:23 <pikhq> (for certain notions of "practical")
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05:26:26 <Ilari> Hmm... Esolang that is turing-complete but completely impractical to implement.
05:28:38 <pikhq> Something in terms of matrix operations?
05:28:56 <pikhq> Mmmm, O(n!) time...
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05:29:56 <Ilari> And preferably something more creative than operations being ECDL and modulo.
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08:29:56 <oerjan> ^ul ((!P)(!)^^)()(^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^(~aS:^)
08:31:38 <oerjan> ^ul ((!P)(!)^^)()((X))~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^(~aS:^)
08:32:30 <oerjan> ^ul ((!P)~(!)~^^)()(^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^(~aS:^)
08:33:07 <oerjan> ^ul ()((!P)~(!)~^^)(~aS:^)
08:33:33 <oerjan> ^ul ((!P)~(!)~^^)()(^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^(~aS:^):^
08:33:33 <fungot> ((!P)~(!)~^^) ...out of stack!
08:33:43 <oerjan> ^ul ((!P)~(!)~^^)(~)(^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^(~aS:^):^
08:33:44 <fungot> (()~((!P)~(!)~^^)~^^) ...out of stack!
08:35:36 <fizzie> Someone mentioned a palindromic ul quine, so I made one too, but mine's really uneleganz:
08:35:37 <fizzie> ^ul (()S:aS(:^:)Sa:S()):^:(()S:aS(:^:)Sa:S())
08:35:37 <fungot> (()S:aS(:^:)Sa:S()):^:(()S:aS(:^:)Sa:S())
08:35:50 <oerjan> ...it's right there on the wiki
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08:36:23 <fizzie> Well, it's not exactly that much more pretty.
08:36:38 <fizzie> I was hoping for something where the latter half did something sensible too.
08:36:53 <oerjan> ^ul (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
08:36:53 <fungot> (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
08:38:17 <fizzie> Quite similar, except the S in the middle doing what I have ()S ... S() inside the parens for.
08:41:57 <oerjan> well it has to end in a quote, which cannot do much
08:42:21 <fizzie> Yes, but it's a quote that's almost half the program, just boringly repeated.
09:19:19 <oerjan> ^ul ((!P)~(!)~^^)((!Q)~(!)~^^)()()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^(~aS:^):^
09:19:19 <fungot> ((!Q)~(!)~^^)((!P)~(!)~^^) ...out of stack!
09:19:31 <oerjan> ^ul ((!P)~(!)~^^)((!Q)~(!)~^^)(~)()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^(~aS:^):^
09:19:31 <fungot> (:((!P)~(!)~^^)(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^(!Q)~(!)~^^) ...out of stack!
09:25:42 <oerjan> ^ul :(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:((^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(:)~^(^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^
09:25:51 <oerjan> ^ul (~):(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:((^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(:)~^(^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^
09:27:59 <oerjan> ^ul (~):(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(S)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:((^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(:^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^
09:29:10 <oerjan> ^ul (~):(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(S)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^
09:29:47 <oerjan> ^ul (~):(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(S)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(:^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^
09:30:34 <oerjan> ^ul (~):(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(S)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^
09:30:57 <oerjan> ^ul (~):(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(S)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^(~a(#)*S:^):^
09:30:57 <fungot> (:(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^S)# ...out of stack!
09:33:37 <oerjan> ^ul ()(~):(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(S)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:((^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(:^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^
09:38:16 <oerjan> ^ul (~):(()~(^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(:^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~((^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^(~a(#)*S:^):^
09:38:16 <fungot> (:(^)(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^)# ...out of stack!
09:42:24 <oerjan> ^ul (~):(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(S)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:((^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~(~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(:^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^(~(#)SaS:^):^
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09:43:09 <oerjan> ^ul ():(()~(()~(^)~(:)~(:)~(^)~()~^S^(^)~^^^)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(S)~^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:((^~)~^a(()~)~(~^^)**:()~^~()~()~^~^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(()~(^()(^)(^))~(^~a(:)~(~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^)**~*)~^^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:(:^^)~(^())~(^(~))~^^()~^^:^^(~(#)SaS:^):^
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12:34:53 <Ilari> Haha... X.509: Advantages: extremely flexible & general Disadvantages: extremely flexible & general, extremely ugly
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12:41:20 <Slereah> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thang
12:41:49 <Ilari> Haha. Certificates that say in one place that that those are not CA cetificates and then in another place say those are.
12:42:33 <Ilari> CA flag false, CertificateSign in Keyusage (that's the CA capability).
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12:46:22 <Ilari> Oh, and certificates that contain "strictly follow KeyUsage". And then contain KeyUsage that is useless for the type (IIRC, RSA for KeyAgreement, except that RSA can't do that).
12:48:06 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of making mail programs attempt to encrypt using DSA (which is signature-only).
12:50:52 <Ilari> Oh, and then there's the cute NonRepudation bit in KeyUsage. Nobody really knows what it means.
12:57:07 <Ilari> For using RSA with TLS, one needs at least one of digitalSignature or keyEncipherment.
13:01:05 <Ilari> Heh. Make an esolang that encodes its programs using ASN.1
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13:12:47 <Ilari> COME FROM in combination with hierarchial code structure could make some fun stuff.
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13:28:55 <iconmaster> Does anyone know what EgoJoust does if it encouteres () without a * or a %?
13:29:52 <Lymia> !bfjoust evil ((++-)*100000)
13:30:22 <Lymia> It contains a syntax error.
13:30:24 <Lymia> I want to see what happens.
13:36:17 <iconmaster> There! IconJoust now fully supports ()*and ({})%
13:37:29 <fizzie> Unless Gregor's changed it back, it's running gearlance now.
13:37:59 <fizzie> And gearlance treats a () that is not immediately followed by either * or % as if it were (...)*0.
13:38:29 <fizzie> To handle things where people put ()s inside a (...)*0 comment. (Still won't work if you're commenting out mismatched ()s, though.)
13:41:20 <fizzie> (EgoBot doesn't seem to be here right now, though.)
13:41:48 <iconmaster> IconJoust is at http://www.yoyogames.com/games/164956-iconjoust
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13:44:20 <fizzie> iconmaster: Have you tried the tripped-me-up (a(b{c(d{e{f}})*2})*3)*4 construction with it? (That's supposed to expand to abbbcddeabbbcddeabbbcddeabbbcddef.)
13:45:51 <fizzie> (Or maybe more nitpickingly, "be interpreted as if it were" instead of "expand to".)
13:46:28 <iconmaster> Oh, lemme try now. It has a funny way of expanding ({}) - it turns (a{b}c)%x to (a)*x b (c)*x
13:46:52 <iconmaster> I know thats kinda 'wrong', but im sticking to it...
13:48:07 <iconmaster> shouldnt it be (a(b{c(d{e{f}})%2})%3)%4 ?
13:49:57 <fizzie> It's just that gearlance doesn't differentiate between * and %, so I forget to, too.
13:52:06 <fizzie> In completely other news, what: this classroom box doesn't have neither MATLAB nor an X server. And I was going to show a small MATLAB demonstration here.
13:53:38 <fizzie> (Also someone seems to have forgotten a Minority Report DVD in here.)
13:54:43 <fizzie> But even proper spelling won't help me here.
14:01:57 <fizzie> I don't seem to have the perrrivileges to install WinaXe or something here.
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15:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/fshj3/wisconsinites_wouldnt_it_have_been_easier_to_vote/
15:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It annoys me that there are people who seem to think that picking the lesser of two evils is something you should be pleased about.
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15:37:40 <Ilari> APNIC down <0.01: 32k+1k to China, 32k to Guam, 2x4k+2k to Australia, 256 to India. IPv6: /48 to PH, /48 to Singapore. /32 to Thailand, 2x/32 to Australia, /32 to Hong Kong
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15:44:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, well, I'm flattered, but I don't really need a /48.
15:45:47 <Ilari> Oops, I missed expanding that entry. It should be /48 to Philippines.
15:46:53 <Ilari> BTW: There are private individuals (and not exceptionally special otherwise either) that have ASN+PI IPv6 /48.
15:49:10 <Ilari> AFAIK, at least in ARIN region, the yearly cost of having ASN / PI IPv6 /48 is the same fee, so even if you have both, you only pay that once.
15:50:00 <Ilari> Other registrars might not be so nice.
15:51:53 <pikhq> Yeah, the only real cost of getting your own ASN and IPv6 is getting an ISP to go along with it.
15:55:44 <Ilari> Before APNIC depletes, the maximum block size can start to drop. While it is possible to assign multiple ranges at once, doing this leads to fragmentation.
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16:34:53 <Gregor> I hate profiling SO MUCH.
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16:46:42 <augur> Gregor: so do minorities
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16:59:54 <elliott> 07:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/fshj3/wisconsinites_wouldnt_it_have_been_easier_to_vote/
16:59:54 <elliott> 07:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It annoys me that there are people who seem to think that picking the lesser of two evils is something you should be pleased about.
17:00:11 <elliott> republicans support DADT and oppose abortion, therefore the USA has a healthy distinct two-party system
17:01:04 <pikhq> elliott: They also believe in smaller government.
17:01:42 <pikhq> elliott: Sorry, they also *claim* to believe in small government.
17:01:51 <elliott> pikhq: Sure they go on about privatise this, privatise that but I don't see them claiming they'll shrink the military.
17:02:04 <pikhq> elliott: Exception, Ron Paul.
17:02:18 <pikhq> Of course, Ron Paul in particular I'm not sure why he's in the GOP.
17:02:43 <elliott> yeah but he's a right-wing nutcase.
17:02:44 <pikhq> He's more of an actual conservative than a fire-and-brimstone politician.
17:02:56 <elliott> well, libertarian nutcase, to be precise
17:03:26 <pikhq> elliott: They're all nutcases. Paul is a breath of fresh air merely for having internally consistent views.
17:03:57 <pikhq> And now to stop mentioning the guy, because it's damned depressing that I consider him sane compared to most of Congress.
17:04:07 <pikhq> Fuck, I need a drink.
17:10:04 <elliott> pikhq: May I suggest whisky, drink of old, grumpy farts?
17:16:07 <Gregor> Scotch whiskey is the drink of young grumpy farts :P
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17:17:53 <pikhq> Fuck it, I'm too young to drink legally still. Coffee it is.
17:18:21 <zeotrope> not to young to join the army though..
17:18:26 <Gregor> Is coffee that much better while fucking a puritan?
17:18:39 <pikhq> Gregor: Them puritans are crazy in bed, man. :P
17:19:03 <pikhq> zeotrope: I am, however, too 4F-able to join the army.
17:20:05 <elliott> <pikhq> Fuck it, I'm too young to drink legally still. Coffee it is.
17:20:35 <zeotrope> that's a shame, could have learned some cool psyops stuff
17:20:37 <zeotrope> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJIqpJ5_hJc
17:22:14 <zeotrope> 4F is a conscription class meaning not admissable
17:24:37 <pikhq> I'm also exempt from the draft. Yay.
17:25:14 <elliott> i guess you just had to mention brainfuck
17:26:08 <Sgeo> Hmm, that doesn't explain why
17:26:14 <pikhq> Ineligible for military service, medical reasons.
17:26:58 <elliott> pikhq is secretly made out of plasma.
17:27:28 <pikhq> I will ruin your dwarf fortress!
17:27:33 <pikhq> With the power of miasma!
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17:31:23 <elliott> pikhq: did you know that olsner is from paris? that's no lie!
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17:32:10 <pikhq> Damned French. My father does NOT smell of elderberries, I'll have you know!
17:36:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Autism.
17:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely that makes him an incredibly valuable military asset?
17:36:36 <fizzie> Gregor: I suppose someone already complained about the lack of Ego?
17:36:50 <elliott> Autistic plasma: THE MOST LOGICALLY TACTICAL NON-SOLID LIFEFORM _EVER_
17:37:06 <elliott> There should be a movie. AUTISTIC PLASMA
17:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> He can't do anything because his electrons have to be lined up in *just* the right way.
17:38:09 <elliott> THAT'S OCPD *slap Phantom_Hoover*
17:38:37 <Phantom_Hoover> SHUT UP I CAN'T EXACTLY MAKE IT "DOESN'T TALK TO OTHER PLASMA"
17:39:14 <oerjan> without exploding, that is
17:39:59 <elliott> pikhq is totally offended now.
17:40:04 <elliott> How dare you mock his plasma-based composition?!
17:40:17 <oerjan> no, he doesn't, he cannot understand that we are mocking him
17:40:40 <elliott> that's zzo you're thinking of
17:41:12 <fizzie> Today's lunch talk: could you deep-fry plasma? (Context: apparently they do -- somewhere in Texas or something -- deep-fried coca-cola and deep-fried beer already.)
17:41:27 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_Coke
17:41:30 <Sgeo> I should probably eat at some point
17:41:44 <oerjan> fizzie: throw some billion tons of lard into the sun and see
17:41:44 <fizzie> "It was introduced by inventor Abel Gonzales, Jr., at the 2006 State Fair of Texas, where it won the title of "Most Creative" in the second annual judged competition among food vendors."
17:42:05 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, dammit, Scotland has been overtaken by America in the deep-frying research industry.
17:42:17 <fizzie> Journal of High Energy Deep-Frying.
17:42:40 <oerjan> "The Culinary Use of Fusion Reactors"
17:42:56 <oerjan> "Cooking With Your Tokamak"
17:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> fizzie: throw some billion tons of lard into the sun and see ← billion is waaaaay too small.
17:43:06 <oerjan> I SEE AN INDUSTRY OPENING
17:43:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well it's just for testing purposes, duh
17:43:34 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_Coke
17:43:47 <elliott> it sounds awful. it sounds amazing
17:44:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it would be so delicious, and kill me.
17:44:14 <fizzie> oerjan: I did suggest converting ITER into an experimental magnetic-containment deep-fryer; sounds far more important to humanity than fusion energy.
17:44:45 <oerjan> fizzie: now our _food_ can be permanently 30 years away too!
17:44:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's like less than something you can buy from mcdonalds, i bet
17:45:38 <Phantom_Hoover> When I am in charge all energy content in food will be relativistic.
17:45:49 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm pretty sure fusion will be a practical and viable method of energy production at around the year 2050. (Source: Sim City 2000.)
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17:48:35 <fizzie> Or to quote a website: "The shops have been using the bar code system, 666, for years. New American credit cards contain the prefix 666. World bank number code [?] is 666, etc. Source: a pamphlet."
17:48:54 <fizzie> (Paraphrased; the original was in Finnish.)
17:49:46 <fizzie> I've gotten into the habit of using "source: a pamphlet" as a sort of an intensifier whenever I make a statement; it's such a boost to believability.
17:50:28 <oerjan> I'M SO LOOKING FORWARD TO GET THAT CREDIT CARD CHIP IMPLANTED IN MY FRONT HEAD
17:50:42 <fizzie> It's "lähde: lentolehtinen" in Finnish, it sounds better that way.
17:51:28 <oerjan> fizzie: ooh, fusion cooking would take on an entirely new meaning!
17:51:58 <elliott> "sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on"
17:52:20 <oerjan> elliott: um there's a limit of six months or so iirc
17:52:39 <elliott> oerjan: you can't reply after a certain number of months too apparently, that's just fucked up
17:52:46 <elliott> ok i can see a reason for voting
17:52:48 <elliott> but not being able to reply?
17:52:57 <elliott> "Actually, the reply limit was changed from six months to one. The voting limit was always in place, but now it's more transparent."
17:53:06 <fizzie> They sell this Finlandia-brand "X Fusion" vodka with different X's -- Lime, Mango, whatever -- and whenever I see it I have to wonder about what it has to do with fusion-as-in-physics.
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18:08:45 <elliott> And now, the advice animals tired-meme-series reaches new heights of ridiculousness: http://i.imgur.com/D8aO6.jpg
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18:11:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, it isn't; and besides, Scumbag Steve is just an Advice Animals offshoot.
18:11:57 <elliott> It's all a bunch of reddit bullshit.
18:12:25 <oerjan> well naturally, i recall the advice animals subreddit explicitly points out that humans are animals.
18:12:28 <elliott> Meme comes in from 4chan to reddit one year late --> breeds wildly --> run to the ground --> continues for months regardless.
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18:24:32 <elliott> oerjan: btw i was thinking about :()^
18:25:15 <elliott> oerjan: as we know, there is only one way to create more data - :. also, there is only one way to shrink *or* modify data - ^. so in the long run, there is exactly one way to create new data without just duplicating previous data
18:25:29 <elliott> so, for complex behaviour, data has to be a program that acts on itself
18:25:33 <elliott> but it can't do anything with itself but :^ again
18:25:44 <elliott> so I very much doubt it's TC
18:26:35 <oerjan> and i think possibly a might not help either
18:27:13 <oerjan> (you can only modify the top with it, so you still need ^ which only reverses it)
18:27:22 <elliott> oerjan: I think what I said above is pretty close to a proof
18:27:50 <elliott> :^ is the only "compound instruction" that does anything "complicated"
18:27:54 <oerjan> i think you are overly optimistic
18:28:05 <elliott> oerjan: i don't mean a formal proof
18:28:09 <elliott> just a "let's stop thinking about it" proof ;D
18:28:41 <oerjan> um thinking that it is _not_ TC is no reason to stop wanting a proof
18:28:57 <elliott> oerjan: i meant, stop thinking about trying to do a TM in it
18:29:23 <oerjan> a TM seems pretty hard
18:29:50 <elliott> oerjan: i mean any complex behaviour really
18:30:10 <elliott> hmm, in fact, in the long run, I think any :()^ program ends up just doing
18:30:15 <oerjan> i think the behavior can be pretty complex, just not necessarily useful
18:30:30 <elliott> because in the long run, you have to keep applying the same thing
18:30:37 <elliott> or... i suppose it could transform a function into a different function
18:30:53 <elliott> i would say that function quotations in underload tend to be rather useless as data
18:30:56 <oerjan> well you only have a finite set of elements to use in a given :()^ program
18:31:09 <oerjan> but that's true of :()^! too, which is TC
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18:32:01 <oerjan> the essential property that i see of :()^a is the complete impossibility of getting to data below the top of stack without running it
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18:35:05 <oerjan> um also what do you mean "function quotations in underload tend to be rather useless as data"
18:35:05 <elliott_> "Most of my hacking cycles right now are going towards debugging the new code generator for GHC. The code generation stage of GHC takes the Stackless Tagless G-machine (STG) intermediate representation (IR) to the C-- high-level assembly representation; the old code generator essentially performed this step in one big bang. The new code generator is many things. It is a more modular, understandable and flexible codebase. It is a client of cutting edge
18:35:06 <elliott_> research in higher-order frameworks for control-flow optimization.
18:35:06 <elliott_> It is also frickin’ hard to debug."
18:35:11 <elliott_> <oerjan> um also what do you mean "function quotations in underload tend to be rather useless as data"
18:35:19 <elliott_> oerjan: things you can manipulate as data tend to not do anything useful when called
18:35:39 <elliott_> oerjan: so I can't imagine most quotations can operate on themselves well
18:35:57 <elliott_> when using :^ to get some modified data
18:36:30 <oerjan> what is precise definition of "function quotation"
18:36:49 <elliott_> oerjan: it isn't precise, I just mean "quotation that does something useful when ^'d"
18:36:56 <elliott_> a quotation is (...) if you didn't know :-P
18:37:10 <oerjan> you realize quotations are the _only_ data in underload?
18:37:16 <zzo38> Are there any chess variants with sphinx of black quartz? Is there any chess variants with judging a vow?
18:37:30 <elliott_> oerjan: QUOTATIONS THAT ARE USEFUL FUNCTIONS ARE RARELY WELL-MANIPULATABLE DATA
18:37:39 <elliott_> that's well-manipulatable data
18:38:01 <elliott_> ok the first is a bad example since you call it. but ff
18:38:25 <oerjan> ...all data needs to be called, since that is the only way to get information out of it
18:38:43 <elliott_> I'm saying that :^ is only useful for things like recursion
18:38:57 <elliott_> i don't think you can get a list-like structure to modify itself
18:41:15 <Sgeo> Oh, in the context of Underload
18:41:33 <elliott_> oerjan: just 'cuz i make no sense don't mean you have to be a meanie
18:41:40 <oerjan> there may be a vague distinction, but you can easily straddle the boundary
18:43:12 <oerjan> i mean my lookup tables, for example, are also essentially case statements
18:43:34 <elliott_> OKAY MR. "person who's actually written a program in underload unlike me"
18:44:23 <oerjan> and you can use :^ like things to generate essentially infinite data like lists
18:44:59 <Gregor> http://www.theonion.com/articles/marauding-gay-hordes-drag-thousands-of-helpless-ci,19325/ Oh nooooooooose
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18:49:16 <Wooble> !bfjoust wooble-orig http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=N8Ne4yLY
18:49:58 <oerjan> Wooble: EgoBot isn't online at the moment. also the wooble- is added automatically.
18:50:17 <oerjan> um actually it's online, just not here
18:51:51 <Wooble> no response. in any case, I'm guessing my 2-year-old bfjoust strategy isn't very effective anymore. I had no idea the game still existed after the Agora version died off.
18:52:10 <Wooble> ah, slow response. and yes, 0.0 score.
18:52:45 <elliott_> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
18:52:45 <elliott_> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
18:52:45 <elliott_> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />
18:52:45 <elliott_> <title>RAW OUTPUT N8Ne4yLY</title>
18:52:47 <elliott_> <meta name="robots" content="noindex, nofollow" />
18:52:56 <elliott_> --http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=N8Ne4yLY
18:53:10 <Wooble> well that would hurt the strategy a bit...
18:53:17 <elliott_> also, the tape is 10-30 long, so your program never wins.
18:53:24 <oerjan> Wooble: um, your paste assumes a far longer tape than our ... right
18:53:56 <Gregor> Ack, EgoBot is off again >_<
18:54:17 <Gregor> Sorry, I broke things a lot yesterday :P
18:54:41 <oerjan> wtf a /raw.php? that doesn't actually respond raw...
18:54:49 <Wooble> you kids today and your modern jousting games. back in my day, we had to walk uphill in the snow to get to the end of the tape.
18:54:51 <zzo38> You can use sprunge instead it does in fact respond with raw text by default.
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18:55:23 <zzo38> Wooble: There is snow in the tape? That must be why it doesn't work.
18:57:10 <oerjan> Wooble: well if you cut off most of those >>>>>>>>>>> that only run you off the tape anyway, that should fit nicely in an irc message
18:57:35 <oerjan> no need to use pastebin
18:57:38 <Wooble> yes, but the strategy still should fail horribly for a short tape.
18:58:08 <elliott_> every program on the hill would beat any strategy so naive.
18:58:22 <elliott_> especially one that wastes time by moving with a loop.
18:59:08 <Wooble> to be fair, it was in first place back when the game started and there were no strategies evolved :)
18:59:27 <elliott_> and when loop conditions were broken.
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19:01:31 <fizzie> Gregor: <fizzie> Gregor: I suppose someone already complained about the lack of Ego?
19:01:38 <fizzie> Gregor: Didn't you say you follow pings?
19:02:31 <Gregor> fizzie: I follow pings when I get home, not in the middle of the day.
19:02:40 <Gregor> fizzie: I have a bouncer, so I only see the full log when I'm on a computer with the full log.
19:02:42 <fizzie> Gregor: What sort of excuse-monkey talk that is.
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19:04:09 <Gregor> <Wooble> to be fair, it was in first place back when the game started and there were no strategies evolved :) // when the game first started the tape length was different, it's 10-30 now. That's the biggest issue :P
19:04:16 <Gregor> !bfjoust i_regret_everything <3
19:04:19 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_i_regret_everything: 0.0
19:05:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Pastebin's "download" link is actually raw (though it comes with the metainfo that causes browsers to show a download link); the "raw" is a bit medium-raw indeed.
19:06:05 <fizzie> Also that looks like it would fit in an IRC message even without any trimmings.
19:07:34 <Wooble> !bfjoust naive >->+>->+>-->++>--->+++++[-]+[->++[-]+][->++[-]+][->++[-]+][->++[-]+][->++[-]+]
19:07:36 <EgoBot> Score for Wooble_naive: 12.7
19:09:29 <oerjan> that last part can be abbreviated to ([->++[-]+])*5 in our current interpreters
19:10:15 <Sgeo> Oh come on, Continuity 2 is iOS only?
19:11:17 <Wooble> the business community management company? ;)
19:18:15 <fizzie> Wooble: You can see some additional bits about what your proggie did/is-like at http://zem.fi/egostats/ (not on-demand, but freshly updated)
19:18:46 <fizzie> Should add more plotteries. (Though it already takes something like 10-15 minutes to draw them all with the slow-as-slow numpy/scipy/matplotlib combination.)
19:20:46 <fizzie> 41 23 13.94 -12.71 ais523_defend13.bfjoust
19:20:46 <fizzie> 42 25 13.43 -19.74 ais523_defend9_75.bfjoust
19:21:24 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
19:22:16 * Sgeo sees what he _thinks_ is a nasty issue with Clojure's concurrency
19:24:36 <oerjan> why would you want use currency made by cons, anyway
19:25:07 <Wooble> !bfjoust blah (>->+)*5(>++[-]+)*40
19:25:13 <EgoBot> Score for Wooble_blah: 10.7
19:25:19 <elliott_> what woulf a concatenative tree rewriting language look like...
19:26:42 <oerjan> i think ais523 said the first underload interpreter was based on rewriting
19:29:06 <oerjan> that way all output can be eventually moved to the front
19:30:24 <elliott_> oerjan: indeed, i'm just thinking how it would work as a language
19:30:34 <elliott_> @pl concatMap (\e -> concatMap (\(t,(s,as)) -> maybe [] (\bs -> [(s, map (subst bs) as)]) (bindings t e)) rs)
19:30:36 <lambdabot> ((rs >>=) . (`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip flip snd . (ap .) . flip flip fst . (((.) . flip (flip . (maybe [] .) . flip flip [] . ((flip . ((:) .)) .) . (. flip (map . subst)) . (.) . (,))) .) . flip
19:33:05 <lambdabot> forall a b. [a] -> (a -> [b]) -> [b]
19:33:12 <lambdabot> forall a b a1. (a1 -> a) -> (a -> a1 -> b) -> a1 -> b
19:35:23 <Sgeo> I think I may be complaining that Clojure doesn't enforce good design
19:35:30 <elliott_> oerjan: don't bother, this is from some old code :)
19:35:57 * oerjan is not bothering, just testing out his type-restricting trick
19:36:10 <lambdabot> forall b a. Maybe a -> (a -> Maybe b) -> Maybe b
19:36:21 <lambdabot> forall b a a1. (Monad (Either a1)) => Either a1 a -> (a -> Either a1 b) -> Either a1 b
19:37:05 <elliott_> oerjan: hey do you still have the link to that self-modifying wiki tom 7 did
19:38:13 <oerjan> i don't keep so many links
19:40:55 <elliott_> oerjan: hm does a concatenative tree rewriting language even require any placeholders beyond (x)
19:41:29 <oerjan> well you used plain x for ^ above
19:41:37 <elliott_> oerjan: yes but the LHS just has (x)
19:42:08 -!- Wooble has left (?).
19:43:07 <oerjan> well a plain x has an unknown stack result, so is hard to deduce anything about
19:43:28 <elliott_> oerjan: um how is that relevant
19:43:48 <oerjan> it means it is hard to have a rule that needs it
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19:44:23 <elliott_> or (x/y) or any of that kind of stuff
19:44:56 <oerjan> well concatenative more or less means not having those
19:48:43 <elliott_> oerjan: completely randomly, a scary haskell thing: you can write "Right x = Nothing" as a top level definition
19:49:22 <elliott_> ("test" just produces an irrefutable pattern error)
19:51:59 <oerjan> > let 1 = 2 in "Logic!"
19:52:33 <Ilari> Haha... Superconductors.org highest T_c claim box is now in degrees Celcius (used to be in Kelvins).
19:54:50 <Ilari> And it is the kind of temperature ordinary fridges (no need for even freezer) are capable of.
19:55:11 <fizzie> +3 is a bit low for a fridge.
19:55:54 <Ilari> Most fridges go below that if you set the thermostat to the lowest it goes.
19:56:56 <fizzie> Well, maybe at some regions; I'm not sure the whole box will stay consistently below +3, though. (Especially if you keep opening the door.)
19:59:55 <zzo38> Why did they change the units?
20:04:41 <lambdabot> Data.List elemIndex :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> Maybe Int
20:04:41 <lambdabot> Data.List elemIndices :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [Int]
20:04:41 <lambdabot> Network.BufferType buf_concat :: BufferOp a -> [a] -> a
20:07:02 <elliott_> oerjan: hey i think i finally wrote a superstrict evaluator
20:07:12 <elliott_> istr it being non-trivial, guess i was wrong...
20:11:16 <zzo38> Would you like me to post a subpage of the Checkout page describing my idea for a binary format?
20:11:33 <elliott_> zzo38: that would probably fit better on the talk page
20:11:43 <elliott_> > let x = "abc" ++ map ('x':) x in x
20:11:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
20:11:46 <zzo38> OK, I will post it on the Talk page instead.
20:11:59 <lambdabot> "abcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxabcxab...
20:12:11 <elliott_> > let x = ["a","b","c"] ++ map ('x':) x in x
20:12:13 <lambdabot> ["a","b","c","xa","xb","xc","xxa","xxb","xxc","xxxa","xxxb","xxxc","xxxxa",...
20:12:18 <elliott_> > let x = ["a","b","c"] ++ map (++"'") x in x
20:12:20 <lambdabot> ["a","b","c","a'","b'","c'","a''","b''","c''","a'''","b'''","c'''","a''''",...
20:16:57 <elliott_> oerjan: what's the Y combinator these days
20:17:31 <elliott_> ("What's the speed of light these days?")
20:18:43 <oerjan> > fix ((["a","b","c"]++).((++"'")<$>))
20:18:45 <lambdabot> ["a","b","c","a'","b'","c'","a''","b''","c''","a'''","b'''","c'''","a''''",...
20:19:02 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Shut up, the Ed Stories are brilliant.
20:19:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:20:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
20:20:45 <elliott_> L (A (L (A (V 1) (A (V 0) (V 0)))) (L (A (V 1) (A (V 0) (V 0)))))
20:20:45 <elliott_> L (A (V 1) (A (V 0) *** Exception: /home/elliott/Code/superstrict/superstrict.hs:14:17-83: Non-exhaustive patterns in case
20:20:51 <elliott_> well i suppose that's one way to diverge
20:21:41 <elliott_> L (A (L (A (V 1) (A (V 0) (V 0)))) (L (A (V 1) (A (V 0) (V 0)))))
20:21:42 <elliott_> L (A (V 1) (A (V 0) (A (A (V 0) (V 0)) (A (V 0) (V 0)))))
20:21:42 <elliott_> L *** Exception: Prelude.(!!): index too large
20:24:36 <elliott_> > let (|>) = flip (.); (☐) = flip in undefined undefined |> undefined ☐ undefined | unefined
20:24:37 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `|'
20:27:02 <Sgeo> "Your example is wrong in more ways than you intended"
20:27:57 <zzo38> I posted on wiki Talk page about my ideas of Checkout binary.
20:37:08 <zzo38> I also have idea for a ".dvipub" format, which I will specify here. It is a ZIP archive. Which kind of files are allowed, the page sizes, the allowed specials, the dots-per-inch, are publisher-specific and the publisher must specify what are allowed in the files they receive.
20:38:13 <Sgeo> Checkout confuses me. Machine code doesn't match current processor reali.. hm
20:38:33 <zzo38> They can contain ".dvi" file, any ".*gf" files for nonstandard fonts you use at the printer's resolution, picture files that might be included, an optional nested archive of source files, optional ".iso" files which will be recorded onto CDs/DVDs and included in the back of the book, etc.
20:38:44 -!- elliott_ has set topic: Átetraor átetradanwakin | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:39:42 * pikhq needs to stop procrastinating.
20:39:53 <pikhq> There's a metric fuckton of homework due.
20:40:02 <Sgeo> Is all this Checkout stuff basically how real processors work?
20:40:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think it is for graphics processors?
20:40:40 <Ilari> Heh. Wrote a tool that given stream of words in lexicographic order prints minimal subsequence subset so far.
20:42:14 <zzo38> And some specials that might exist on some publishers are: Telling where the barcode should be printed, specifying layer for printing with two layers (and what color the color layer should be), if some pages should have tabs sticking out, covers, metadata, and so on.
20:42:57 <zzo38> (And if the publishing service supports multiple resolutions and/or paper sizes, also specials for those things, too)
20:43:03 <Ilari> Squares in base 10: 0, 1, 4, 9, 25, 36, 576, 676, 665856, ...
20:43:27 <zzo38> What is your opinions of this ".dvipub" format?
20:43:32 <Sgeo> zzo38, write a web browser in Checkout
20:43:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, let me rephrase: what did you get those words from?
20:44:34 <Ilari> Wow, set of cubes has quite big subsequence subset.
20:45:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have never written a program in Checkout. However, what I might do some day is to write a program to emulate Checkout programs with specified profiles, and that its output will also tell you the timing and power used, and so on.
20:46:54 <Ilari> By far the biggest subsequence subset I have seen outside artifical examples: 113 numbers so far.
20:47:14 * Phantom_Hoover discovers that there are a tonne of Mythbusters videos on YouTube.
20:48:31 -!- elliott_ has set topic: «Tra átedáwakin» trawan. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:48:45 <Ilari> Take a set A. Now what is smallest subset B of A such that every element of A has a subsequence in B?
20:49:24 <Ilari> Actually, set of strings A.
20:50:03 <zzo38> If I want to publish some books, I would like to use ".dvipub" format, but will any publishing services possibly support this format?
20:50:11 <Ilari> This smallest subset is always finite (but there are sets that have arbitrarily large subsequence subset).
20:50:12 -!- elliott_ has set topic: ««Tra átedáwakin» «Tra tradáwan» dáwan» trawan. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:51:04 <Ilari> Already found 117 for set of cubes (starting from 0) in base 10.
20:51:18 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Perfectly sane here!
20:52:51 <zzo38> (My idea is that the file should be either shipped to them by mail on a DVD, or uploaded to them using FTP; and then they will publish the book for you.)
20:53:32 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, you heard me.
20:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly that means "THAT STOPPED BEING FUNNY THE TENTH TIME"
20:53:40 <fizzie> Ilari: 33856 is a square (184^2), but it doesn't seem to have any of 0, 1, 4, 9, 25, 36, 576, 676 as a subsequence.
20:54:09 <elliott_> fizzie: 33856. 3, 3, 8, 4, 5, 6; see, it does.
20:54:45 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:56:08 <Ilari> Ah, also found 7888885568656 and 888288787822276, ...
20:56:38 <Ilari> Now the set for cubes is at 121 elements..
20:58:55 <elliott_> Ilari: err didn't fizzie just invalidate what you were saying?
20:59:14 <fizzie> Yes, it was a comment on the earlier "0, 1, 4, 9, 25, 36, 576, 676, 665856, ..." list for cubes.
20:59:37 <fizzie> I'm just wondering, since 665856 > 33856.
21:00:10 <fizzie> Cube, square: "same, same but different", like a hotel receptionist once said. (Can't remember the context.)
21:00:28 <Ilari> 36 is subsequence of 33856
21:00:40 <fizzie> Oh, that sort of subsequence.
21:01:23 <fizzie> (The generic sort, not just a substring.)
21:01:27 <zzo38> Did you know that my internet is connected using a 100-foot cable that goes underneath the door, and then is connected to a wireless router next to my computer, and then connected with a shorter wire to the connection in the computer? (My computer is not connected wirelessly, but some other computers are)
21:01:42 <elliott_> @hoogle (m -> a -> b -> m) -> (m -> a) -> (m -> b) -> (m -> m)
21:01:52 <elliott_> @hoogle (m -> a -> m) -> (m -> a) -> (m -> m)
21:01:53 <lambdabot> Data.Data gmapQl :: Data a => (r -> r' -> r) -> r -> (d -> r') -> a -> r
21:01:53 <lambdabot> Data.Function on :: (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c
21:01:53 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel.Strategies parZipWith :: Strategy c -> (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
21:01:55 <Ilari> 123rd for cubes. Still at 11 squares.
21:03:09 <Ilari> Basically, one would expect the sparser the original set, the bigger the subsequence subset will be.
21:04:08 <Ilari> Wonder how big the set would be for absolute pseudoprimes.
21:04:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Good, I don't think I could have borne another obnoxious noob who wouldn't leave.
21:05:31 <elliott_> Yeah, that Phantom_Hoover guy is enough.
21:07:08 <Ilari> Out of first 33 absolute pseudoprimes, subsequence subset contains (in base 10) 28.
21:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know, I steadfastly ignore everything he does.
21:08:38 <elliott_> The worst by far is fizzie though.
21:09:23 <Ilari> Found list containing 10 000 first aboslute pseudoprimes. 4379 subsequences found.
21:10:02 -!- elliott_ has set topic: «««Tra átedáwakin» «Tra tradáwan» dáwan» trawan» trawan. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:11:40 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover is calling the asylum as we speak.
21:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, I will use my connections to have you slung in for LIFE.
21:15:34 <pikhq> This linear algebra textbook is moronic.
21:16:06 <pikhq> If you're going to ask me to *add* a scalar to a matrix, you better *define that*.
21:17:17 <Ilari> Wow. For the latest discovery launch, they restarted the countdown two seconds before the last possible moment.
21:17:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, surely that's just the same as scalar multiplication?
21:18:23 <Ilari> Nope, extra countdown pause at 5 minutes.
21:19:00 <Ilari> Two seconds more and launch would had to be scrubbed (most likely for 24 hours).
21:19:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: If it doesn't define x+y :: Matrix -> Scalar -> Matrix, then it's fucking undefined.
21:20:51 <pikhq> *As it turns out*, addition of a scalar and a matrix consists of adding that scalar to each element in the matrix, but dammit a textbook should fucking define shit like that.
21:21:39 <pikhq> Otherwise, I will be sorely tempted to write "DNE" on half the homework.
21:22:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
21:22:53 <Ilari> Countdown can be no longer be held after the T-31 seconds mark. Cutoff remains possibility up to T-0s. However, if that is used (and problem is small enough not to scrub the launch) the countdown resumes at T-20min.
21:24:47 <Ilari> Main engine ignition happens at about T-5s.
21:25:59 <elliott_> pikhq: aren't all the matrix-with-scalar operations basically automatically lifted?
21:26:37 <pikhq> elliott_: Yes, but this textbook leaves them ENTIRELY UNDEFINED except in the case of scalar multiplication.
21:26:54 <elliott_> pikhq: I'm just saying that it doesn't have to define evrey single combination.
21:27:07 <pikhq> elliott_: "Here are the matrix operations:"
21:27:58 <elliott_> "(And building chickadee houses isn't universally considered a MACHO hobby, even though it involves the use of POWER TOOLS which can LOP OFF FINGERS.)" --prog21
21:28:02 <pikhq> elliott_: How am I to know that addition of a scalar and a matrix is defined if it defines every operation but that?
21:28:16 <elliott_> pikhq: Usually questions don't involve undefined things :P
21:28:51 <pikhq> elliott_: The only reason I went to Google is that I thought it'd be wrong to write a big row of "undefined" on my homework.
21:29:11 <pikhq> If I have to go to Google to correct deficiencies in my textbook, FAIL.
21:34:50 <Ilari> Loads of questions that would require computing something invalid?
21:36:08 <pikhq> Ilari: It's entirely valid to add a scalar and a matrix. It's just that my textbook is defective.
21:37:42 <Ilari> I have never heard of that before. Multiplying matrix and scalar yes, but adding them?
21:37:46 <elliott_> I'm starting to hate all programming languages again.
21:37:56 <Gregor> elliott_: Good, they're all terrible.
21:38:14 <elliott_> Gregor: I knew *that*, I just managed to _suppress_ that fierce hate for a while.
21:38:20 <elliott_> Gregor: I was doddering along quite happily with Haskell.
21:38:27 <pikhq> Ilari: Yes, one adds the scalar to each entry.
21:38:39 <Ilari> And I have heard of operations like exp(A) (A is a matrix)...
21:38:40 <elliott_> Gregor: How's Plof coming, I'ma use its features to change it into a decent language :P
21:39:00 <pikhq> Ilari: This textbook asks for it a few times, but never defines it.
21:41:07 <pikhq> Hmm. Judging from some of these *questions*, it may be assuming that you instead multiply the scalar by the appropriate-sized identity matrix and then add *that*?
21:42:13 <Gregor> elliott_: Plof is dead, long live Plof.
21:42:20 <Gregor> elliott_: Fythe is comin' along pretty well though.
21:42:44 <Gregor> elliott_: Plof 4 will be reborn by Fythe's wings :P
21:43:10 <elliott_> Gregor: I have this awful sneaking feeling that Plof 4 is basically going to be Forth.
21:43:29 <elliott_> Implemented in half-Forth ... Secnd (Fythe :P)
21:43:52 <elliott_> And then, and then, we can write Flop, which runs on top of Plof, running on top of Fythe!
21:45:36 <Gregor> At no point is Plof going to look anything like Forth.
21:46:07 <Gregor> The whole point of Fythe is that the core may be Forthlike (sort of a mind-boggling hybrid between Forth and Lisp), but it provides you the functionality to not expose any of that to the user.
21:46:21 <Gregor> The user language will look almost identical to Plof 3, modulo some stupid bits I'd like to get rid of.
21:46:21 <elliott_> Gregor: Yah, but then you'll realise that all this crazy dynamism that's "easy" in Fythe (modulo the low-levelness) is a pain in Plof because of the more rigid syntax, and you'll loosen it by removing all the braces and shit, and then you'll make argument-passing implicit, just so it can be oh so dynamic...
21:46:42 <elliott_> Well, after reversing everything.
21:46:58 <Gregor> ... yeah, that's definitely Forth right there. X_X
21:47:07 <elliott_> Gregor: Plof 3's main problem was the syntax I think...
21:47:12 <elliott_> At least I seem to recall "if" being super-ugly.
21:47:25 <Gregor> You cried over parens.
21:47:27 <Gregor> Because you're a durp.
21:47:27 <Sgeo> Hybrid between Forth and Lisp sounds sexy
21:47:33 <elliott_> Gregor: I distinctly recall something like
21:47:43 <elliott_> which is just the most hideous thing ever constructed.
21:47:52 <Gregor> if (case) ( true stuff ) else ( false stuff )
21:48:15 <elliott_> Gregor: You should make {} identical to () :-P
21:48:35 <elliott_> Gregor: Oh god, it's thick vs. fucking thin all over again.
21:49:17 <elliott_> Gregor: Yes, but the point is that when you'd use a thin function, you'd use a lazily-evaluated expression with parens,
21:49:24 <elliott_> and when you'd use a thick function, you'd use a function with braces.
21:49:53 <Gregor> Yes, this was my SOLUTION to thick and thin functions, the problem wasn't their existence, it was the complications they caused w.r.t scoping.
21:50:29 <elliott_> [[2There is no correct behavior for these functions, they are purely heuristic. That is, any implementation is allowed to produce
21:50:29 <elliott_> incorrect results if it cannot distinguish between types; proper type management is the responsibility of the programmer or language
21:50:33 <elliott_> lawl, what are those functions even for
21:50:53 <Gregor> Debugging your interpreter :P
21:53:11 <elliott_> I have successfully found The Worst Programmer.
21:53:13 <elliott_> I've just finished rewriting about 100 lines of Python code for like a fourth time today. Because each time I finish and begin using it, I discover that my API sucks, I don't want to use the way I intended and want to use it in unintended ways, and I'm not going to tolerate this! Luckily, now I see a better way to organize it... then the cycle repeats, until I get something that I actually enjoy using.
21:53:13 <elliott_> I don't know, algorithms are not even programming, just moderately interesting mathematical puzzles in a weird formalism. Architecture and design on the other hand are fascinating and immensely rewarding when you get them right! And possibilities for improvement are everywhere, in every function signature, literally!
21:53:15 <elliott_> There must be something wrong with you people if you see only "glue" and "algos" in your code.]]
21:53:21 <elliott_> I suggest immediate removal from the gene pool and also society.
21:53:47 <pikhq> elliott_: Actually, it's really not thick-vs-thing.
21:53:52 <Gregor> Agreed. Movement passes.
21:54:01 <pikhq> elliott_: Instead, Plof is lazy.
21:54:01 <elliott_> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/fsl62/programming_in_the_21st_century/c1ibjmf
21:54:14 <elliott_> I suggest you respond with vile comments referencing the mother of fish dicks.
21:56:51 <elliott_> http://i.imgur.com/IoB53.jpg 13 YEAR OLD LIBERAL MAKES WHINY IMAGE, POSTS ON REDDIT, REACHES FRONT PAGE, I think I'm going to shoot myself in the fucking head,
21:59:31 <Gregor> pikhq: I just sorta figured elliott_ already knew that and was basically trolling :P
22:00:02 <elliott_> Gregor: It's your fault for not having created the perfect language yet.
22:01:25 * Gregor sobs quietly to himself.
22:03:04 <elliott_> Gregor: Just to make you even sadder, with the valiant method of "stealing ideas and tweaking them", I believe I've made a wiki MORE FLEXIBLE THAN HACKIKI
22:04:21 <elliott_> Gregor is now writhing on the floor in despair.
22:05:43 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I'M WAITING FOR GREGOR TO BREAK DOWN AND ASK
22:10:29 <olsner> elliott_: wtf, I am *not* from paris
22:13:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:14:20 <olsner> elliott_: what's so sad about gregor?
22:14:21 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: If he doesn't break down in five minutes I'll just tell you.
22:14:26 <elliott_> <Gregor> pikhq: I just sorta figured elliott_ already knew that and was basically trolling :P
22:14:26 <elliott_> <elliott_> Gregor: It's your fault for not having created the perfect language yet.
22:14:27 <elliott_> * Gregor sobs quietly to himself.
22:17:30 <elliott_> Heeey, on a technicality I've been here longer than I thought.
22:17:47 <olsner> how long did you think you were here?
22:17:55 <elliott_> I was in here 2006-12-29, even though I technically didn't actually, you know, say anything, and then didn't come back until May 2007 which is what I thought.
22:18:19 <elliott_> So I'm slightly closer to oerjan X-D
22:18:24 <olsner> ... and for some reason that came out in swedish
22:19:04 <olsner> that's the neuter-gender version of "cool"
22:19:20 <olsner> that is cool => det är coolt
22:20:32 <olsner> and older people don't treat it as a swedish word but always say just "cool"
22:23:03 <elliott_> I would expect s/older/younger/
22:25:08 <Zwaarddijk> olsner: I hear some young people, mostly from Sweden, not inflecting it to neuter, effectively treating it as congruenceless
22:25:44 <Zwaarddijk> I think all swedish speakers in Finland inflect it to agree, though
22:26:02 <Zwaarddijk> elliott_: older people are likely to treat foreign words as though they were a real short stint of codeswitching
22:26:14 <Zwaarddijk> and therefore don't conform to grammar
22:26:25 <elliott_> darn kids, always with the inflecting and the conjugating of the youth slang
22:26:28 <Zwaarddijk> younger people adopt them into the language
22:27:15 <Zwaarddijk> altho' most people don't have lawns, they have snow.
22:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Zwaarddijk, you've obviously not played Minecraft enough.
22:28:34 <elliott_> alternatively he's played minecraft the correct amount when optimising for having time left to do things that aren't minecraft in a day
22:28:46 -!- copumpkin has joined.
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22:29:42 <Zwaarddijk> tho', well, minecraft kind of looks like a mod of some kind of forgotten proof-of-concept demo that id software made a year prior to quake
22:30:05 <Zwaarddijk> so aesthethically I guess it's in that ballpark?
22:30:28 <elliott_> Zwaarddijk: It's meant to look retro; its gameplay is not really, though. Well, it's "retro" in that it's unconventional and more "fun" than contemporary games, but at the same time it's simulating a rather gigantic chunk of 3D world every tick.
22:30:49 <elliott_> Zwaarddijk: It's a very enjoyable game but err... eats up an awful lot of time...
22:30:59 <Zwaarddijk> elliott_: what hardware does it even require?
22:31:16 <elliott_> Zwaarddijk: It won't run very well on a netbook. Apart from that most things can handle it.
22:31:16 <Zwaarddijk> I fall into sort of addictive behaviours a bit too easily to want to risk that with minecraft, honestly
22:31:48 <Zwaarddijk> elliott_: so like, it wouldn't spin on an old pentium II or any such stuff
22:31:55 <elliott_> I played it on a 1.33 GHz Core 2 Duo with 4 gigs of RAM, you could almost certainly run it with less RAM.
22:32:17 <elliott_> Zwaarddijk: Well, no. But at least it's not just wasteful coding -- it simulates 81 chunks at a time.
22:32:36 <elliott_> You think a Pentium II could do physics, no matter how naive, on 2,654,208 blocks, many many times a second?
22:32:36 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: the marathon-series, various doom-derivatives, diablo II, the classical warcrafts, c&c, even some of the terrible things like rise of the triad and such
22:32:45 <Zwaarddijk> occasional dips into all kinds of weird stuff from then
22:33:00 <Zwaarddijk> gobliiins, king's quest, even, day of the tentacle, all kinds of stuff.
22:33:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:35:37 <elliott_> Gah, Google Translate's interface is so bad.
22:35:53 <elliott_> The menus for selecting a language are five billion times less efficient than letting me type "de to sv".
22:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, but don't you know that text interfaces are USER UNFRIENDLY???
22:39:12 <Zwaarddijk> why hasn't this important insight been entirely carried out in programming?
22:39:21 <Zwaarddijk> we should entirely abandon text in programming.
22:39:56 <elliott_> Zwaarddijk: here's the answer i'll deliver in lieu of another multiple hour debate.
22:40:10 <Zwaarddijk> (I am obviously being entirely serious)
22:40:14 <elliott_> Zwaarddijk: BECAUSE EVERY PROPONENT OF NON-TEXTUAL PROGRAMMING IS A FUCKING JERK ABOUT IT
22:40:19 <elliott_> the last person i argued with about that
22:40:32 <elliott_> didn't realise you were joking to PH
22:40:45 <elliott_> now to try and bury that memory some more
22:40:51 <Zwaarddijk> (actually, I prefer text-based interfaces, and their weakness in windows is a thing that really bugs me whenever i have to use that OS)
22:41:12 <Zwaarddijk> (i also prefer keyboard shortcuts to pointing-and-clicking)
22:41:44 <elliott_> I think both current textual interfaces (ok, "current", they haven't seen much advancement in the past decades) and current graphical interfaces are woefully badly-equipped to handle advanced use-cases, and they are also suboptimal for simple use-cases.
22:42:33 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: I assume you react in the same way to movie critics? But yes, I do have ideas.
22:42:36 <elliott_> A graphical layout of information is a perfectly reasonable and sane thing to have, and GUIs have advantages like having discovery and documentation of features baked in to the interface, whereas finding out how to do something is a separate step in usual textual interfaces.
22:42:59 <elliott_> At the same time linguistic communication is superior to icon-clicking. Icons are pretty much the worst.
22:43:25 <elliott_> And of course a sufficiently advanced linguistic/shell interface blurs the distinction between using and programming, which is a good thing.
23:02:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, the movie critics thing is a bit shaky as a refutal.
23:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, movie critics *should* be able to point out how it should be done better.
23:03:01 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but they don't have to make a better movie themselves.
23:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, well, I don't think Mathnerd314 was asking if you'd implemented something better, just if you actually could say what would be better.
23:04:02 <elliott_> Well, I did give some pointers in the next few lines.
23:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm just saying that unless you actually have an idea of what would be better, complaining is pointless.
23:08:22 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: If someone only ever saw Plan 9 From Outer Space and had never seen any better films or made a film -- say it was the first film ever made --
23:08:29 <elliott_> If they said it sucked, and could not expand on that, are you saying they'd be in the wrong?
23:09:04 <Mathnerd314> yeah... you can't just say "this sucks" without explaining why
23:10:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, yes, because even then there would be basic problems with it which would be noticeable even if you had no experience of films.
23:10:35 <Zwaarddijk> if someone had asked the grandchildren of mr. Fritzl whether their lives were good
23:10:41 <Zwaarddijk> and they had answered 'no, this sucks'
23:10:54 <Zwaarddijk> would you consider that answer invalid because they wouldn't be able to describe a normal life?
23:11:32 <Zwaarddijk> it's not, it's more of an extreme case.
23:12:06 <Zwaarddijk> (I was more going for something like a new approach to godwin-likeness without invoking hitler)
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23:16:56 <elliott_> fritzl is such a funny name but now it's wasted
23:16:59 <Mathnerd314> Zwaarddijk: they could easily complain that they never went outside
23:17:01 <elliott_> it would be a good name for a comedian
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23:26:28 <elliott_> pikhq: Hey, I know you've toyed around with turboencabulators; are you a VXer too by any chance?
23:27:30 <myndzi> gregor, mind if i just rip your conversions and resubmit? :P
23:27:41 <myndzi> i assume lance is in now
23:28:07 <Gregor> myndzi: gearlance is in, and elliott_ is crying waaaaaaaaaaah
23:28:17 <elliott_> Gregor: OH NOES I MADE A FACTUAL STATEMENT?
23:28:25 <elliott_> gearlance is fizzie's buggy interpreter.
23:28:37 <myndzi> anyway, i assume somebody was like OH NOES WE CANT HAVE THOSE BRACKET THINGS ANYMORE
23:28:38 <elliott_> At least it was buggy a few days ago.
23:28:43 <myndzi> and so my programs failed and you replaced them
23:28:48 <elliott_> myndzi: Yes, because they cannot be interpreted efficiently.
23:28:49 <myndzi> but i would like to resubmit them myself if htat's ok ;)
23:29:02 <myndzi> elliott_: shush, you don't have to fucking try and argue it every time i bring it up, i'm not arguing with you
23:29:12 <myndzi> gregor resubmitted them
23:29:25 <myndzi> i just wanted to ask his permission to steal his code but put it under my name so i don't have to think about it ;)
23:29:31 <elliott_> Uhh, I'm not arguing either, wtf are you on about
23:29:39 <Gregor> myndzi: Yeahyeahyeah, go ahead
23:29:40 <myndzi> since i assume all he did was make them runnable
23:29:48 <Gregor> myndzi: But copy them first, then I'll kill them, then resubmit.
23:30:15 <myndzi> elliott_: every time i so much as mention it, you go out of your way to hammer in the CAN'T INTERPRET BLAH BLAH BLAH
23:30:40 <elliott_> myndzi: Uhh, you've mentioned it about three times and each time you're dramatic about it, so I've just responded with one factual line each time.
23:30:46 <elliott_> You're the one who used caps, not me.
23:31:03 <Gregor> !bfjoust return_of_myndzi_careless <3
23:31:06 <Gregor> !bfjoust return_of_myndzi_careful <3
23:31:23 <myndzi> yeah, i used caps as a way of making it evident that i was being facetious
23:31:32 <myndzi> !bfjoust careful >+++++++++++++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++++++++++++>------------------------->------------------------->------------------------->>((>[-[++[(-.)*2((-)*28(.-)*4)*4{}]]])%21)*21
23:31:42 <myndzi> !bfjoust careless >+++++>+++++>----->----->+>->>>((>[(-)*126(-.)*3{}])%22)*22
23:32:26 <fizzie> Buggy smuggy gluggy mr "it's ready except a small parser *bug*" man there grumble mumble.
23:33:09 <fizzie> (Okay, so if you insist on being *factual*, it was buggy; might still be for all I know.)
23:33:15 <fizzie> (But facts are for furries.)
23:33:23 <myndzi> btw this actually seems pretty slow lol
23:33:26 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_return_of_myndzi_careless: 0.0
23:33:26 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_return_of_myndzi_careful: 0.0
23:33:26 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_careful: 38.3
23:33:26 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_careless: 33.9
23:33:36 <myndzi> those numbers are so low now :(
23:34:04 <myndzi> amusingly, slowrush does better than them both
23:40:18 <fizzie> Re interpreter speeds, I tried to benchmark gear vs. egojoust on current hill, but seems that egojoust got stuck in an infinite loop on hill/ais523_decoybooster2.bfjoust vs. hill/Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls.bfjoust -- it's been running for three minutes now.
23:42:52 <fizzie> (Also for defend10 vs defend9_25.)
23:44:37 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/ywfk -- the most unscientific test ever, but anyways.
23:55:32 <pikhq> "Write the given matrix as a product of elementary matrices".
23:55:36 <pikhq> This should not be hard.
23:57:46 <elliott_> pikhq: you never answered my QUESTION!
23:57:54 <pikhq> Oh, wait, I was being stupid.