00:08:39 <Sgeo> Is it safe to say that if I wrote an esolang interpreter in Clojure, you'd all shoot me?
00:08:58 <Gregor> fizzie: I updated the inner clear of FFSPG to use (({{}})), which it was always supposed to use.
00:10:21 <Ilari> Hmm... How many different non-singular nxn matrices over GF(2) there are? For n = 2, there are 6.
00:16:46 <pikhq> Time for still more linear algebra.
00:21:05 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:23:54 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:23:56 <Ilari> BTW: The program found 134 cubes. And looks like it ran out of range, so there are probably more.
00:24:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:24:48 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:24:56 <Ilari> The biggest is about 6.8*10^26 in magnitude.
00:28:26 <Ilari> Checked: 1G cubes, found 134, largest 677667955666576979957565952
00:32:53 <elliott_> Man, there are still periods without known oscillators in the Game of Life.
00:33:42 <Ilari> They discovered some new periods?
00:34:20 <elliott_> 31 and 37 were discovered by random search.
00:34:30 <elliott_> http://pentadecathlon.com/lifeNews/2011/01/is_life_omniperiodic.html
00:35:12 <elliott_> "A particularly small universal Turing machine (henceforth abbreviated to UTM) is the 7-state 4-symbol machine by Minsky. There even exists a UTM with only two states and three symbols, discovered by Stephen Wolfram."
00:36:47 <elliott_> "The printer design is very simple and easily adapted to other uses, such as a hexadecimal printer with alphanumeric characters A-F added, similar to the extended printer in the fine-structure-constant-generating pattern that appeared at the beginning of April."
00:36:53 <elliott_> But is it the fine structure constant of Life? :-)
00:38:23 <Ilari> Heh. Tangent-0 17c/45 spaceship gun... That would be caterpillar gun?
00:43:20 -!- comex_ has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
00:46:46 -!- comex has joined.
00:47:47 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:48:50 <Ilari> Would be quite impressive and high-period. At about 331k cells long, it would take about 875k cycles just to clear the gun barrel.
00:49:35 <Ilari> Hmm... Universal constructor. Could probably build a caterpillar.
00:50:53 <zzo38> When attempting to view some forum, I got the message "Sorry, 172.29.30.76 has been banned." (with the 403 status code) instead of the forum view. I can find at least 2 things wrong with that. Can you?
00:51:01 -!- comex has quit (Client Quit).
00:51:08 <elliott_> Ilari: Well, there's a universal constructor, and also a knightship self-replicator...
00:51:09 -!- comex has joined.
00:51:53 <myndzi> 403 seems like maybe not the best choice too, but whatever
00:52:20 <zzo38> For one thing, that isn't even my IP address.
00:52:22 <myndzi> well, 403 is forbidden
00:52:27 <myndzi> so i guess it makes sense
00:52:32 <myndzi> but most things would return a legit html page or something
00:52:38 <myndzi> of course it's not your ip address, it couldn't be
00:52:38 <Ilari> Heh. Reminds me when I got one site to block itself (broke some things).
00:52:53 <myndzi> well, unless the server was on a local network with you
00:53:22 <myndzi> 172.16-31.*.* is reserved
00:53:28 <myndzi> for local use, like 10.*
00:53:54 <zzo38> Also, in case of being banned, you should still be able to view it (it should only prohibit sending messages). (You can view without being logged in!)
00:54:17 <zzo38> My local network is 192.168.* anyways.
00:54:24 <fizzie> Could be a reverse-proxy/load-balancer sort of thing, but banning the IP of a reverse-proxy frontend sounds like a rather bad move.
00:55:09 <zzo38> Sometimes reloading the page causes it to load correctly, and then a bit later it will say banned again.
00:55:18 <Ilari> (My LAN is 10.0/8 and some /64 in IPv6 ULA range (oh, and FE80::/16 also sees some use).
00:56:26 <myndzi> fizzie: seems like maybe an admin didn't know what they were doing
00:56:30 <myndzi> zzo38: fits with load balancing
00:56:46 <myndzi> i've used 172.something before just to be RaNdOm
00:57:20 <fizzie> I use 10.<random byte>.<quasi-significant number>.0/24 as the different local-network subnets here.
00:57:32 <fizzie> (With the same <random byte> for all subnets, of course.)
00:58:41 <zzo38> Yes, it does seem they banned some of the load balancing and that caused something mixed up.
00:59:37 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:59:49 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:01:06 <zzo38> Is there some order for local network addresses in case of one local network inside of another?
01:02:56 <myndzi> it doesn't really matter how many you have inside each other
01:03:08 <myndzi> assuming you are talking about NAT here
01:07:23 <myndzi> the ips are translated, that's the T in NAT
01:07:35 <myndzi> so when you 'nest' them, it doesn't really matter WHAT they are
01:07:51 <myndzi> though it's conceivable that maybe poor implementation could get confused if internal and external used the same subnet
01:07:55 <zzo38> OK, but is there a standard for the order of nesting?
01:08:24 <fizzie> I wouldn't go and do multi-level NAT without any particular reason, though. (Having the outer NAT controlled by someone else is a valid reason, of course.)
01:09:47 <zzo38> Yes, there is generally not a good reason to do multi-level, but in some cases you do, and in these cases it might sometimes be useful to have a standard nesting order.
01:10:20 <zzo38> Are most routers you buy using 192.168.* group?
01:10:49 <fizzie> Yes, I would guess so; and 192.168.0.0/24 and 192.168.1.0/24 are probably the most popular single /24s inside that.
01:11:04 <myndzi> what do you mean about the 'order of nesting'
01:11:08 <myndzi> there's no reason for it
01:11:22 <myndzi> it doesn't affect anything, or at least it shouldn't
01:11:38 <zzo38> Mostly in order to prevent confusion, is the reason for having an order of nesting. Not much else.
01:11:45 <myndzi> the only time i've had a problem with local ips is when my stepmom's work used a common router subnet for their VPN
01:11:47 <myndzi> which was dumb of them
01:12:04 <myndzi> they could have chosen something else and not had to put up with a big chunk of tech support calls from people VPNing from home
01:12:23 <fizzie> Actually (even though it's not at all a standard) my gut feeling is that 192.168.0.0/16 is what "normal people"/"consumers" use; 10.0.0.0/8 is used by "enterprise-level solutions"; and 172.16.0.0/12 is used by people who just want to be different (and/or is not used at all).
01:13:10 <fizzie> At least I've seen 10.x quite often in corporate contexts, and all home-router defaults seem to come from the 192.168. area.
01:13:20 <zzo38> Then they should assign one group for VPN in order to prevent such problems with VPN.
01:13:49 <fizzie> That's still problematical if you want to be connected to more than one VPN at the same time.
01:14:02 <myndzi> my first dsl modem used 10
01:14:41 <Ilari> Here the modem uses 10.x address internally.
01:15:01 <fizzie> Back at dialup times I think at least one ISP used 10.x addresses for their nameservers and such.
01:15:11 -!- TLUL has joined.
01:15:15 <fizzie> The recursive-query ones used by their clients, that is.
01:15:41 <fizzie> And perhaps even as the PPP link remote-endpoint, I don't think PPP endpoints need to be in the same network at all.
01:15:42 <Ilari> (and that is indeed the reason I use 10.x for this LAN).
01:16:26 <fizzie> SLIRP by default uses some magical 10.x addresses too.
01:16:42 <zzo38> Ilari: It looks like you are connected using IPv6 address though.
01:16:53 <Ilari> This is all LAN-internal stuff.
01:17:23 <zzo38> But does your connection to the internet is IPv6, while the LAN is IPv4?
01:17:29 <Ilari> There is absolutely no valid reason to be able to reach that modem internal address from outside this LAN.
01:17:52 <fizzie> Ooh, jwhois is so clever:
01:17:53 <fizzie> $ whois 2002:5870:3714::1
01:17:53 <fizzie> Querying for the IPv4 endpoint 88.112.55.20 of a 6to4 IPv6 address.
01:17:54 <zzo38> Yes, you would be correct.
01:18:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:18:36 <Ilari> LAN can carry both IPv4 and IPv6 traffic.
01:19:04 <zzo38> fizzie: I do not have whois, but I could connect to one if I know the host name (or IP address) and port number of a whois server, and then see what it does.
01:19:09 <fizzie> Ilari: Haven't considered going to a v6-only LAN setup? It'd be like you were living ten years in the future. :p
01:19:41 <zzo38> What are IPv6 LAN addresses? Are they just the translation from the IPv4 LAN addresses into IPv6? Are there others?
01:20:06 <fizzie> They are very different.
01:20:56 <zzo38> What is the host name and port number for the whois servers? How do I figure out what they are?
01:21:08 <fizzie> The "unique local address" (ULA) addresses perhaps correspond closest to current private-network addresses.
01:21:17 <fizzie> And/or the deprecated site-local scope addresses.
01:22:00 <Ilari_antrcomp> Some IPv6 traffic in this LAN actually involves 2000::/3 block adresses.
01:24:15 <fizzie> zzo38: There isn't really a good way to determine the whois server responsible for a particular address/domain; though there are a few attempts. (tld.whois-servers.net tries to be a CNAME of the whois server for .tld domains, and there are some forwarding records from whois servers you can follow. In particular, I think whois.iana.org redirects into the reponsible RIR?)
01:24:39 <fizzie> And there's a standardish port, 43.
01:26:02 <zzo38> I cannot connect to tld.whois-servers.net, it cannot resolve the domain name.
01:26:15 <fizzie> I mean com.whois-servers.net and so on.
01:26:22 <zzo38> But at least now I know what port number is whois.
01:26:34 <fizzie> Yes, if you ask whois.iana.org about my IP, it answers back with (among other fluff) "refer: whois.ripe.net".
01:26:39 <fizzie> So you can keep following those.
01:27:32 <Ilari> I think I figured out what causes the escalating ping delay: IPsec
01:29:23 <zzo38> It looks like the whois replies also include advertisements from people registering domain names that start with the one you are trying to search for.
01:30:29 <fizzie> Heh, for domains maybe.
01:30:37 <fizzie> The ones for IP addresses just contain poetry.
01:31:19 <fizzie> In case of SixXS tunnels, you can keep following the records like this: http://p.zem.fi/v55u -- though for whois.sixxs.net the forwarding isn't automatic, it's just mentioned in the remarks: section.
01:31:51 <Ilari_antrcomp> Okay, removed IPv4 addresses from interfaces (on this computer, the other one needs those). Let's see what breaks.
01:32:50 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Do you have some sort of a NAT64/DNS64 system there, or some other transition mechanism? If not, I would assume all IPv4-only sites would break. :p
01:32:52 <Ilari> (oh, and of course 127.0.0.1 is still there.
01:33:14 <Ilari> It won't remove. :-/
01:33:25 <elliott_> fizzie: IPv4-only sites -- heh, like, all sites
01:33:37 <fizzie> elliott_: Well, there's a v6 facebook, what else do you need?
01:34:16 <zzo38> I would guess that you can connect to whois using a (good quality) gopher client, with no problem. You could connect to finger and daytime as well.
01:34:22 <fizzie> I wonder if you can nowadays build a Linux kernel with IPv6 but not IPv4 support. ISTR it wasn't possible at some point, since the v6 code depended too much on the v4 code and not on some common, shared set.
01:34:39 <elliott_> At least I don't recall the IPv4 checkbox being force-ticked when IPv6 was.
01:36:21 <fizzie> IPV6 .. Depends on: NET [=y] && INET [=y] :/
01:37:37 <fizzie> At least you can do IPv6 netfilter without IPv4 support, they have a common higher-level "core" part.
01:39:23 <fizzie> I'm honestly a bit surprised no-one has yet managed to sneak in a netfilter module to do some sort of ad-hoc IPv6 NAT.
01:40:08 <Ilari> Oh, found one place that assumed IPv4 connectivity to another computer. Fixed & tested.
01:40:29 <Ilari> Or even that NAT66 (prefix translation)
01:40:30 <elliott_> Ilari: Enjoying your 4 am computer-breaking?
01:44:32 <fizzie> In fact I don't think the mangle table in v6-netfilter can really do much anything. Okay, you can MARK/CONNMARK/etc connections there (and then apply different routing tables based on those), and twiddle the DSCP/hop limit/TCP MSS/TOS values, but that's about it.
01:44:38 <Ilari> Heh. Tcpdump (to see what's on that LAN spoke) warns about lack of IPv4 address.
01:45:47 <fizzie> tcpdump is fond of that warning, I think you get the same if you tcpdump a slaved-to-bridge iface that doesn't have/need any v4 addresses.
01:47:29 <elliott_> WARNING: You are probably a time traveller!
01:48:40 <elliott_> [PH-logreading:] (Block log); 01:55 . . Conficker (Talk | contribs) blocked Gooniepunk2010 (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 3 seconds (about right) (account creation disabled) (Member of a website supporting internet terrorism)
01:48:48 <elliott_> Are three-second blocks the... norm on RationalWiki?
01:49:06 <elliott_> Oh, looks like a beuaroeuaroeouar- bear crat.
01:51:45 <Ilari> Fun: One can add the same IP address to two different interfaces.
01:53:25 <elliott_> Ilari: You use a tunnel right?
01:53:34 <elliott_> YOU'RE COMMUNICATING WITH A V4 HOST
01:53:46 <elliott_> Make them refuse to connect to your ISP.
01:55:04 <Ilari> There's no seperate router.
01:55:34 <zzo38> Maybe they just wanted to add it to the ban log instead of making them banned.
01:55:42 <Gregor> "Holistically Balanced™ guarantees that the constituents of the extract are in the same synergistic ratios as in the plant."
01:55:45 <elliott_> Ilari: Reconfigure the moderouter, then.
01:56:38 <Ilari> Gregor: Including all the toxins? :-)
01:57:09 <zzo38> Can I make wiki for TeXnicard?
01:59:06 <Ilari> It looks like the thing is a hub to LAN side, not a router.
02:01:15 <elliott_> Gregor: Aren't you still crying on the floor?
02:01:20 <Sgeo> zzo38, note that you are probably not actually forbidden
02:03:00 <zzo38> I am not asking whether or not I am forbidden. I am asking if I can.
02:06:00 <Sgeo> How should we know?
02:09:46 <Gregor> Clove must be the most powerful friggin' extract I have ever dealt with.
02:13:28 <zzo38> What is the git protocol, so that it can make wiki that keeps the list of changes in the git repository?
02:13:49 <elliott_> zzo38: Just call out to the git command-line tool. That's what everyone does.
02:14:00 <elliott_> Or use a git library in your language of choice, though if that language is PHP you're out of luck.
02:14:27 <zzo38> I suppose it does not have to be PHP, of course. It could also be CGI.
02:15:53 <zzo38> It could also be a C program with Cygwin.
02:16:20 <elliott_> Cygwin is slow enough that just shelling out to git would make no noticeable speed difference.
02:18:14 <zzo38> But, does Cygwin include git library for using in C programs?
02:18:38 <elliott_> Cygwin doesn't include anything.
02:18:44 <elliott_> It is just a compatibility layer.
02:18:51 <elliott_> I think git comes with a library these days.
02:19:07 <zzo38> I have Cygwin installed and it happens to include git, too.
02:19:33 <zzo38> What is the C library, can I check if it has it?
02:22:26 <zzo38> Or, maybe I can look at glip codes to figure out how to make it in PHP4.
02:23:35 <zzo38> Also, it needs to work over secure shell protocol since that is what repo.or.cz uses.
02:23:50 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:24:08 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
02:28:41 <pikhq> It was probably a bad idea to end up having all of my linear algebra homework pending the day before it's due.
02:28:48 <pikhq> Thank God I'm quick.
02:41:58 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
02:46:12 -!- TLUL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:46:41 -!- TLUL has joined.
02:54:20 <elliott_> 14:43:11 <lament> 999999 = 1M999
03:00:53 <pikhq> Dear textbook: computing an O(n!) algorithm more than once is stupid and retarded and stupid.
03:01:18 <pikhq> Dear textbook: computing an O(n!) algorithm when there exists an O(n^3) algorithm is fundamentally pointless.
03:01:47 <pikhq> (yes, the O(n^3) algorithm in question is also in the textbook)
03:12:21 <fizzie> Sounds vaguely like matrix inversion there. (Was the determinant-based solution O(n!)?)
03:12:47 <pikhq> Computing a determinant via cofactor expansion is O(n!).
03:13:03 <pikhq> Computing it via row reduction is O(n^3).
03:32:58 <elliott_> 18:32:17 <GregorR> Just for giggles, I wrote a program to use (attempt to) use genetic algorithms to generate a P'' program that will produce the text "Hello, world!"
03:32:59 <elliott_> 18:32:27 <GregorR> The closest it got after 1000 iterations was "HMMMMMMMMMMM!"
03:32:59 <elliott_> 18:32:48 <GregorR> (PS I don't have a fegging clue how to do this)
03:33:47 <zzo38> I think Sony has been sued due to them removing OtherOS feature and ability to run PlayStation 2 games. I probably will not buy it, but I definitely will not buy it if they do not put both of these features back on.
03:35:52 <pikhq> zzo38: Just the OtherOS feature.
03:36:11 <quintopia> yes. they are being sued for that. under the same code they were suing under.
03:36:21 <elliott_> 00:47:04 <GregorR> Also, it gets caught in local optima way to easily :(
03:36:22 <elliott_> 00:47:23 <GregorR> Its equation for the hypotenuse of a triangle: x+.5*y X_X
03:36:24 <pikhq> zzo38: They only stopped having the PS2 compatibility on new systems; if you bought a PS2-compatible system, it is still PS2-compatible.
03:36:31 <elliott_> it's close enough if you ask me
03:36:49 <elliott_> 01:48:23 --- quit: sanxiyn ("전 이만 갑니다.")
03:36:49 <elliott_> hm what are those characters...
03:36:57 <elliott_> quintopia: like i said. close enough.
03:37:17 <elliott_> As clsoe as close is to clsoe.
03:37:20 <pikhq> Can't tell you more than that, because I don't speak Korean.
03:38:28 <pikhq> Though, being of at least average intelligence, I could probably learn Hangul in a few hours if I cared to.
03:38:52 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, they do both hardware and software remove features. This should not be acceptable. Other things they removed in the hardware is some USB ports, which means you need a USB hub.
03:39:05 <elliott_> Removing USB ports is UNACCEPTABLE
03:39:16 <elliott_> If your product has 3 USB points at any point in time, it can never decrease to only having 2 USB ports.
03:39:17 <pikhq> zzo38: I consider removing features from later hardware revisions annoying, but acceptable.
03:39:47 <zzo38> Not because it had 3 USB and now as 2. It used to have 4.
03:39:52 <pikhq> Removing stuff via firmware updates? Pretty bullshit.
03:40:09 <quintopia> elliott_: are you referencing the recurring character from xkcd?
03:40:18 <zzo38> So now you cannot play a 4 player game with wired USB controllers unless you have a USB hub.
03:40:21 <pikhq> Removing a feature that's listed on the fucking box via firmware updates? Complete and utter bullshit, and I want there to be a hell for those responsible to fry in.
03:40:35 <pikhq> zzo38: And the stock controllers aren't wired. :)
03:40:41 <elliott_> quintopia: There is no possible way Megan is fictional.
03:40:49 <pikhq> quintopia: You could ask him.
03:40:52 <elliott_> Unless Randall had a relationship with a fictional character.
03:40:59 <elliott_> Which I suppose is... possible...
03:41:01 <quintopia> pikhq: he's pretty private about that sort of thing
03:41:01 <pikhq> #xkcd on irc.foonetic.jet
03:41:12 <quintopia> elliott_: i doubt that was her name even if she's based in fact
03:41:22 <zzo38> Removing features using firmware update is even more unacceptable.
03:41:27 <elliott_> quintopia: Names are irrelevant.
03:41:45 <zzo38> I think removing PS2 support is also stupid and unacceptable, although that seems to also be a hardware issue?
03:41:59 <pikhq> zzo38: How do you feel about PCs no longer shipping with BASIC in the BIOS?
03:42:10 <elliott_> 15:02:35 <Figs> ok, I already knew what monads are then, just not the word
03:42:10 <elliott_> 15:03:06 <Figs> why "monad" though?
03:42:11 <elliott_> 15:03:22 <ihope> Dunno. What else might they be called?
03:42:11 <elliott_> 15:03:34 <Figs> function objects?
03:42:11 <elliott_> The universal sign of non-comprehension.
03:42:13 <zzo38> Well, I dislike it. Now it means you need to install an operating system!
03:42:16 <quintopia> pikhq: i do know what he got on the mental disease survey though :P
03:42:25 <pikhq> Oh, and yeah, they removed PS2 support because the hardware for that was pretty expensive, and they wanted to cut costs.
03:42:28 <elliott_> pikhq: You are attempting to use logic on zzo38. This has been a PSA.
03:42:39 <zzo38> pikhq: Then they should put an emulator.
03:42:54 <pikhq> (launch systems had an entire PS2 in there, later ones just had the PS2's GPU, then they cut that.)
03:43:01 <pikhq> zzo38: The PS2 is a *royal* bitch to emulate.
03:43:32 <pikhq> I doubt we'll be capable of decent PS2 emulation on normal hardware for 10 years.
03:43:38 <elliott_> 18:51:52 <bsmntbombdood> HURD sounds nice
03:43:38 <elliott_> 18:55:34 <Pikhq> It does. And if somebody would care to help out the GNU system maintainer, it would even *be* nice.
03:43:39 <elliott_> 18:56:04 <Pikhq> (ams, in #natter and ##hurd. . . Ironically, in spite of being GNU maintainer, he's banned from #gnu)
03:43:39 <elliott_> 18:57:49 <bsmntbombdood> microkernels are elegant
03:43:39 <zzo38> Then they should readd the OtherOS feature so that other people can collaborate to make the PS2 emulator and run on PS3, and then ship the PS3 with that program preinstalled as an operating system.
03:43:41 <elliott_> 19:00:02 <lament> Pikhq: must be a complete asshole?
03:43:43 <elliott_> 19:03:52 <Pikhq> Nope. The channel owner kicked out a lot of the ops.
03:43:50 <elliott_> pikhq: HATING HIM TO RECTIFY YOUR PREVIOUS MISJUDGEMENTS, I SEE
03:43:56 <elliott_> 19:11:18 <sekhmet> zomg, ams isn't in #gnu anymore?
03:43:56 <elliott_> 19:11:34 <sekhmet> <snarky>That channel might be tolerable now, then</snarky>
03:44:14 <pikhq> elliott_: Well, he *is* a complete ass, but that's not why he got kicked out.
03:44:42 <pikhq> elliott_: Channel founder had a power trip and booted out a bunch of ops, including ams.
03:44:52 <elliott_> pikhq: I blame you for subconsciously planting (note: lies) the idea in my head that helping ams out would be a good idea, leading to him developing a hatred for me X-P
03:45:10 <elliott_> He'd have probably been nicer if I called his mother a goat and /ignored him.
03:45:43 <pikhq> I'm not sure why I thought he was anything but an ass then.
03:46:15 <pikhq> I mean, *RMS* thinks ams is an ass.
03:46:28 <zzo38> The PS3 is very powerful so hopefully it should be possible to emulate PS2 at a reasonable speed if enough people try. If the OtherOS feature is put back, enough people *will* try, and then Sony can make the PS2 emulator as the default operating system in OtherOS mode.
03:46:37 <elliott_> zzo38: No, emulating the PS2 is almost impossible.
03:46:49 <elliott_> Well, I think two CPUs and one very powerful GPU.
03:46:58 <elliott_> Emulating that is almost impossible.
03:47:00 <pikhq> elliott_: More than that.
03:47:13 <pikhq> zzo38: They pushed the PS3 hardware nearly to the max just emulating the PS2-minus-the-GPU.
03:47:19 <pikhq> And it has a freaking *weird* GPU.
03:47:20 <elliott_> quintopia: I don't actually own a PS2, but I do know that emulating the entire thing is pretty much impossible. :p
03:47:24 <zzo38> The PS3 has eight cores isn't it? (Only seven can be used (one is reserved for the PS3 system and is disabled in OtherOS mode), but you should be able to, somehow)
03:47:28 <elliott_> (On, you know, consumer hardware.)
03:47:32 <elliott_> zzo38: GPUs aren't easy to emulate at all.
03:47:40 <elliott_> Emulating a GPU with a CPU is a basically futile task.
03:47:47 <elliott_> Heck, look at the Checkout language.
03:47:56 <elliott_> The whole point is that you can't do those kinds of things with a CPU.
03:48:08 <pikhq> zzo38: All 7 were used to emulate the rest of the PS2's hardware when they did mostly software emulation.
03:48:15 <quintopia> i was surprised he knows so much about gpu actually
03:48:35 <zzo38> Then they would need to make the GPU in PS3 also programmable in OtherOS mode.
03:48:55 <elliott_> quintopia: who knows so much about gpu?
03:49:01 <zzo38> I would require them to do so, that is what they have to pay for removing two features!!
03:49:07 <elliott_> quintopia: his supervisor is some kind of gpu maniac, so i'm not surprised :)
03:49:26 <elliott_> removing features is not illegal
03:49:46 <quintopia> zzo38: also, a programmable gpu is crazy talk. are you that crazy?
03:49:47 <zzo38> Yes; but both of these features are important and advertised features.
03:50:02 <zzo38> quintopia: I am a bit crazy
03:50:18 <pikhq> The freaking thing has 4 CPUs and a weird-ass GPU.
03:51:06 <pikhq> Which, for no good reason, can do up to 1080p.
03:51:06 <elliott_> `addquote <quintopia> zzo38: also, a programmable gpu is crazy talk. are you that crazy? <zzo38> quintopia: I am a bit crazy
03:51:40 <elliott_> pikhq: They should have included a REAL LIVE DUCK with its brain hooked up to the motherboard, just so that full emulation requires emulating a duck.
03:51:45 <zzo38> Do they even still sell PlayStation 2?
03:51:56 <HackEgo> 319) <quintopia> zzo38: also, a programmable gpu is crazy talk. are you that crazy? <zzo38> quintopia: I am a bit crazy
03:52:10 <pikhq> zzo38: $99 for a brand-new PS2.
03:52:15 <zzo38> If they do still sell PlayStation 2, then the problem is not quite as serious.
03:52:18 <elliott_> zzo38: The PS2 has made insane amounts of money over its lifespan and will continue to make insane amounts of money for the forseeable future.
03:52:35 <pikhq> And they only intend to stop selling the PS2 when it stops selling.
03:52:44 <pikhq> Which is likely to be sometime after the PS4 comes out at this rate.
03:53:36 <pikhq> It's freaking hit 11 years of sales and has no signs of stopping.
03:54:42 <zzo38> I suppose then, that PS3 not running PS2 programs is not as serious, but it still might be false advertising. OtherOS feature being removed is therefore more serious, and that might also be false advertising.
03:55:07 <pikhq> zzo38: They don't freaking advertise that it does PS2 emulation anymore.
03:55:54 <elliott_> Removing shit via firmware upgrades with no recourse to legally restore an older firmware is Evil(TM) and should arguably be illegal.
03:55:59 <zzo38> Maybe they should advetrise that it does *not* do PS2 emulation (at least in the manual), to clarify it. Because they are all called "PlayStation" and this might confuse some people.
03:56:01 <elliott_> Removing features on new models is perfectly acceptable.
03:56:08 <elliott_> PS3: Revision 3 might just be a cardboard box with a horn in it.
03:56:31 <elliott_> zzo38: It's only false advertising if it can confuse someone who isn't an idiot.
03:56:33 <zzo38> elliott_: That part about firmware upgrades I agree with; it is far worse than removing hardware features from new hardware.
03:56:34 <pikhq> quintopia: Yup, 3 years after its successor came out the PS3 finally started to outsell the PS2.
03:56:46 <pikhq> Erm. Rearrange that.
03:57:02 <elliott_> Almost everyone who wants a PS2 has one.
03:57:05 <elliott_> There can only be so many sales on top of that.
03:57:11 <zzo38> elliott_: OK, it is not false aftertise then; still it is possible someone might think it does, which is why the manual at least should mention that it does not run PS2 games.
03:58:31 <zzo38> Removing features from new hardware is not quite as bad, but I still think in many cases it is not very good; especially if the new hardware is not said to be a completely new product with a different name and everything like that.
03:59:10 <quintopia> zzo38: as long as they don't say "new and improved!"
03:59:22 <pikhq> elliott_: Well, just this January they sold 260,000.
03:59:41 <zzo38> Well, yes. If they say "new and improved" then they are completely wrong; the only improvement is the larger hard drive.
04:00:27 <pikhq> Sure, pales in comparison with the other consoles (getting about a million each), but that's pretty significant to be pulling *5 years after it was made obsolete*.
04:01:59 <zzo38> (And I do also think there are many problems with modern PC BIOS; although a new one can still be written, so it is not too much of a problem. The only real problem is that new PC will not run without an operating system.)
04:03:20 <elliott_> Just replace the BIOS with Open Firmware.
04:03:34 <elliott_> Super-fast, extremely elegant, incredibly simple, and you have a full Forth system at your disposal without any need for an operating system.
04:03:46 <elliott_> Not only that, but the Forth system has full access to the system hardware and the booting process.
04:04:04 <zzo38> elliott_: That would work. Does Open Firmware work for normal PC operation?
04:04:05 <elliott_> Even better, Open Firmware is a fully open standard.
04:04:13 <elliott_> zzo38: Yes. There are implementations of Open Firmware for x86 processors.
04:04:58 <zzo38> What I mean is, can you still install the same operating systems using the same PC BIOS calls and that stuff? Is it possible to make a combination of Open Firmware with PC BIOS?
04:05:42 <elliott_> I think there might be a compatibility layer. Not sure.
04:05:52 <elliott_> I don't know all _that_ much about Open Firmware.
04:05:59 <elliott_> But it was certainly nice on that 1998 iMac.
04:06:34 <pikhq> Should be possible to do, in the same manner of EFI emulation.
04:07:08 <elliott_> Forth is pretty much the perfect BIOS language.
04:07:29 <zzo38> elliott_: Yes I agree it is the best program language to have built-in to the BIOS.
04:07:31 <elliott_> Incredibly simple implementation, full access to the underlying hardware, concise, readable and efficient, and fully extensible.
04:10:27 <zzo38> What else would be useful in there is a command that takes a URL (or address/port/selector) as parameter, and then downloads the file to RAM and executes the file (which you might use to install a operating system over the internet in case you have no physical media to install an operating system from).
04:10:56 <zzo38> I would put in a terminal emulator, too (but that is just me).
04:14:08 <elliott_> zzo38: you would have to initialise all the network hardware too
04:14:14 <elliott_> hey i forgot about this http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CRTL
04:14:50 <elliott_> oh hey oklopol wrote a program in that
04:14:55 <elliott_> i think oerjan might like that language o' mine
04:16:00 <fizzie> Network booting tends to be a supported thing in most places. (I haven't bothered to read the context here.)
04:16:18 <fizzie> Usually by downloading a file over tftp or something.
04:16:20 <elliott_> fizzie: this channel is now about http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CRTL
04:17:29 <zzo38> When ais523 comes in, it should be about Checkout because I typed something on the Talk page for that article.
04:18:51 <zzo38> You can discuss CRTL too. But when ais523 comes in I will also discuss Checkout too.
04:20:24 <fizzie> Open Firmware is the nicest, though: the devices (PCI cards and such) had platform-independent forth bytecode drivers burned on ROM on them, so Open Firmware itself didn't need to know about all possible network cards and other hardware, it just used the bundled driver for basic functionality.
04:22:33 <elliott_> fizzie: The above context was basically Open Firmware lovin'.
04:22:54 <zzo38> fizzie: The problem is in case some devices do not have such drivers? However, I think Open Firmware is still good idea in general.
04:22:58 <elliott_> A rare example of a truly minimal, clean, usable and elegant system being put into widespread use without complaints.
04:26:13 <zzo38> Maybe not quite widespread use as it should, though. Most PC BIOS does not include Open Firmware. Although they really should include it.
04:27:04 <elliott_> zzo38: I was referring to the fact that all New World ROM Macintoshes used it.
04:27:25 <elliott_> So, every iMac and Power Macintosh-post-1998 up until the Intel switchover.
04:28:13 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:28:41 -!- sftp has joined.
04:29:29 <fizzie> Many Sun boxes too, under the name OpenBoot.
04:32:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:34:16 <elliott_> 15:58:24 <oklopol> your real name is elliott hird, mine is oklofoan polakir
04:36:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:37:35 <Gregor> Interval: Greatest surname ever?
04:43:19 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:55:54 -!- augur has joined.
05:11:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:24:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:25:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:36:35 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
05:39:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:39:59 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:45:44 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:05:41 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL.
06:06:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:06:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
06:11:44 <variable> anyone know a way to get google to stop treating newer stuff as more relevant. I'm trying to find information that is over a decade old
06:37:04 <Sgeo> "The conversion to a C string in-place means we need to read one less than the size of the buffer."
06:37:14 <Sgeo> "All these issues resulted in compile time errors."
06:37:30 <Sgeo> Compile time checking of off-by-one errors?
06:37:38 <Sgeo> (Or, well, at least this one)
06:40:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:40:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:04:12 -!- zeotrope has joined.
07:16:49 <pikhq> Finally finished with linear algebra.
07:17:33 <Sgeo> pikhq, now would be a bad time to ask you to teach me algebra?
07:17:38 <Sgeo> *linear algebra
07:18:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: It would be much easier for you to learn outside of a classroom, I expect.
07:18:30 <pikhq> Since you would be able to completely avoid the retarded emphasis on manual computation of algorithms that have no right to be done that way.
07:19:17 * Sgeo vaguely remembers writing Python scripts to do his Spanish homework and TI-BASIC programs to do his math homework
07:19:21 <pikhq> Especially mother-fucking O(n!) algorithms.
07:19:30 <pikhq> Oh. Enn. Factorial.
07:20:44 <Sgeo> pikhq, surely for very very small problems it's not that bad?
07:20:47 <Sgeo> *innocent look*
07:20:47 <pikhq> Or O(n^3); that's pretty bitchy, too.
07:20:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's still a bitch.
07:21:41 * Sgeo decides that what pikhq needs is a nice O(1) problem
07:22:01 <pikhq> It's this sort of shit that makes people hate math: bland, pointless algorithm computation is done *in place of* math.
07:22:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: What, like 1-digit multiplication? Where we memorise a look-up table?
07:23:05 <Sgeo> Would rewriting a matrix size n*n with bottom rows on the top etc. be O(sqrt(n))?
07:35:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:37:42 <oerjan> 23:35:52 --- join: oerjan (oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
07:38:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:42:36 <pikhq> Alaska Standard Time, French Polynesia time, and Hawaii-Aleutian Daylight Time.
07:43:02 <pikhq> UTC-8:30? The fuck?
07:43:41 <oerjan> and i actually joined 09:08 in my timezone
07:44:08 <pikhq> Yeah, looks like 01:08 in my timezone.
07:45:20 <oerjan> usually i'd expect UTC-9 from clog at this time of year at least
07:45:35 <pikhq> ... UTC-9? Is clog in Alaska?
07:45:48 <pikhq> Yeah, see, that'd make sense.
07:46:01 <pikhq> I bet clog just doesn't sync with NTP.
07:46:06 <oerjan> (forgot my own timezone isn't UTC)
07:46:19 <oerjan> yeah but 35 minutes? :D
07:46:40 <pikhq> All the more reason for NTP.
07:46:41 <oerjan> also, i'm pretty sure it was reasonably synced not _that_ long ago
07:46:52 <pikhq> Well, unless it's inexplicably on Pitcairn Island time.
07:47:01 <pikhq> (which ceased to be UTC-8:30 in '98)
07:47:27 <oerjan> huh i thought pitcairn was further west than that
07:48:30 <pikhq> No, it's a bit east of Hawai'i.
07:48:44 <pikhq> And quite a bit further south.
07:49:57 <oerjan> hm yeah north america is far more west than south, so it's still in the middle of the ocean
07:51:06 <oerjan> http://maps.google.no/maps?hl=no&biw=1070&bih=592&q=pitcairn%20island%20map&wrapid=tlif129870841650011&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
07:51:36 <oerjan> dammit i was hoping that included my unzooming
07:53:52 <oerjan> for some inexplicable reason the right click menu for the (i assume) permalink inside google maps _lacks the actual "copy this link" item!_
07:54:09 <oerjan> so i tried the address bar, which didn't work
07:54:24 <oerjan> http://maps.google.no/maps?hl=no&q=pitcairn+island+map&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hereheretue&ll=-19.973349,-144.84375&spn=123.556837,242.226563&t=h&z=2
07:54:38 <oerjan> i actual had to open that in order to copy the address
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:02:47 <pikhq> TIL: I have the same birthday as William Shatner.
08:03:07 <pikhq> Who turns fucking *80* next month.
08:12:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:38:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
09:33:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
09:35:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:36:34 <Vorpal> compiling gcc is annoying
09:40:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:44:23 -!- asiekierka has joined.
09:44:48 <Vorpal> quintopia, because it takes ages
09:45:04 <Vorpal> quintopia, and now the dep cloog is acting up and don't want to compile
09:45:21 <Vorpal> screw it, I'll just compile with the proper -march on another computer that has the right gcc version...
09:45:52 <quintopia> you don't have to ping me right now. there is no one else talking :P
09:46:06 <Vorpal> also I'm used to high traffic channels
09:46:15 <Vorpal> nickpinging is a habit that is hard to get rid of
09:46:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, besides, what did you mean with "sounds like a personal problem"
09:47:34 <quintopia> yes, i understand, but it's good to not forget the reasons why you do something, and you know, not do stuff that isn't necessary if possible
09:47:47 <quintopia> it sounds like your personal sstem is the problem
09:47:54 <quintopia> i bet others can compile it just fine :P
09:48:22 <Vorpal> also I can compile it just fine on other computers
09:48:27 <Vorpal> though it takes ages there too
09:48:41 <Vorpal> I blame that computer for it. Ubuntu LTS
09:50:01 <quintopia> lucid? i run lucid. i bet i could compile it no probs bobs
09:50:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, gcc 4.5.2 ?
09:50:27 <Vorpal> quintopia, and yes lucid
09:51:03 <Vorpal> quintopia, also needs to go into $HOME/local/gcc-4.5.2 btw :P
09:51:30 <Vorpal> I done this before (for gcc 4.5.0) and it worked but it is still a PITA
09:51:46 <Vorpal> especially since I need 4.5.2 to compile bsnes it seems
09:52:15 <Vorpal> what are you going huh over
09:53:00 <Vorpal> great. Compiling on another computer almost worked.
09:53:16 <Vorpal> $ ldd ./bsnes | grep not
09:53:17 <Vorpal> libao.so.4 => not found
09:56:17 <Vorpal> bin/bsnes: symbol lookup error: bin/bsnes: undefined symbol: _ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii
09:57:38 <Vorpal> $ nm -CD bin/bsnes | grep detach_grow
09:57:38 <Vorpal> U QListData::detach_grow(int*, int)
09:57:54 <Vorpal> screw it. Lets try statically linked
09:58:34 <Vorpal> link += -s -ldl -lX11 -lXext <-- or maybe not
09:58:40 <Vorpal> -ldl doesn't sound good
10:00:07 <quintopia> give up now. settle for the massive assload of twisted hackery that is zsnes
10:01:30 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
10:05:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, zsnes doesn't run the game in question properly
10:05:20 <Vorpal> quintopia, besides it worked with some LD_PRELOAD stuff
10:05:31 <Vorpal> I copied most of the QT libraries across
10:06:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, and the computer with gcc-4.5 that I have, which can compile this thing (runs Arch Linux) has a Sempron 3300+. The game sound stutters on it using bsnes
10:06:43 <quintopia> meh, i'm used to game sound stuttering
10:07:11 <Vorpal> quintopia, I can't stand that. Lets see how it works here
10:07:21 <Vorpal> wait, need to copy roms across
10:21:21 <Vorpal> quintopia, which is your favourite SNES game?
10:22:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, for me it is Chrono Trigger definitely
10:23:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, haven't played it?
10:24:19 <Vorpal> better than Secret Of Mana and the Final Fantasy series even IMO.
10:24:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, and of course, Square developed it
10:25:52 <Vorpal> quintopia, Super Mario RPG is also near the top
10:29:21 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'd say that Secret of Mana comes as clear number two of best SNES games ever. Then Super Mario RPG. Then some of the Final Fantasy games. Then Zelda - A Link to the Past
10:35:22 <Vorpal> In many ways I have to say that Secret of Mana had the best battle system. Not a separate mode as such (as in Final Fantasy 3) but integrated into the continual gameplay. But Chrono Trigger beats it thanks to such an awesome story. Even though the battles are something in between the two games.
10:35:34 <Vorpal> (still in normal view but battle mode that is)
10:36:01 <Vorpal> while final fantasy 3 switches to a side view mode for battles
10:37:16 <Vorpal> quintopia, you don't like RPGs or?
10:38:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, right. That is why our lists are so utterly different then :P
10:38:48 <Vorpal> don't really like platformers. Not enough story
10:39:50 <Vorpal> quintopia, for me the story is one of the most important parts of the game. Without an epic story a game isn't worth playing (exception would be the kind of games you use to fill up a few minutes while waiting for the bus, such as a minesweeper clone or whatever)
10:41:29 <Ilari> Hmm... Cubes at 143. Squares still at 11 (there probably aren't more).
10:42:26 <Ilari> Largest cube: 32 359 333 255 236 395 269 222 926 293. Largest square: 888 288 787 822 276
10:42:40 <Vorpal> Ilari, what are you doing?
10:42:55 <Ilari> Trying to calculate subsequence subsets of cubes and squares.
10:45:24 <quintopia> vorpal: i prefer platformers with a kick-ass story
10:46:24 <quintopia> (but the gameplay is more important than the story overall)
10:50:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, haven't played that one
10:59:53 <Ilari> Vorpal: Basic idea is: Take a set of strings. Then see what strings in the set you can't strike any symbols from to get another element of the set. That is fiendishly hard for most sets (computing some members of that subset is easy, proving you got them all is very hard).
11:00:05 -!- azaq23 has joined.
11:00:44 <Ilari> For primes in base-10, that set is known to contain 26 primes.
11:06:31 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
11:13:38 <Ilari> For powers of two in base 10, it likely contains 5 elements (1, 2, 4, 8, 65536; but proving this seems extremely hard).
11:13:54 <Ilari> And anyway, if that set contains sixth element, it is extremely large.
11:16:18 <Ilari> For squares in base 10 (starting from 0), I get: 0, 1, 4, 9, 25, 36, 576, 676, 665856, 7888885568656, 888288787822276, ... (the set either does not have more or the greater elements are much bigger than last I got).
11:18:03 <Ilari> This subset is always finite (but unbounded among sets) in size.
11:19:26 <Ilari> To see it is unbounded. Take set of all binary strings at least k symbols in length. The size of this subset for this set is obviously 2^k. Now as k increases without bound, 2^k increases without bound.
11:32:23 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:34:45 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:35:25 -!- Zuu has joined.
11:36:17 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:38:20 <Ilari> And the sparser the original set, the larger the subset tends to be. Primes has subset of size 26. Absolute pseudoprimes has set of size >4000.
11:40:52 <Ilari> Of course, how regular the set is also affects it.
11:41:55 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
11:41:56 <Ilari> Actually, I think that the set is computable if the original set can be described by regular language.
11:44:47 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:47:34 -!- vovten has joined.
11:50:46 <Ilari> And for basically any set that can be described by any class of languages with following properties: 1) The class is closed under difference. 2) Emptyness of generated set is decidable, 3) The class can express strings comtaining given symbols in given order, 4) lexicographically first string described by language can be computed.
11:54:29 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
11:57:51 <Ilari> The algorithm is: subset(L): S = {}; while(!empty(L)) { t = first_of(L); S = union(S, {t}); L = diffrence(L, supersequences(t)); }; return S;
11:58:52 <Ilari> That may not be efficient, but at least that runs in finite time.
12:00:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, what is the complexity though?
12:01:17 <Vorpal> also "That may not be efficient, but at least that runs in finite time." is quite a strange statement in most contexts
12:01:42 <Ilari> Might be something crazy, even for regular languages (to say nothing about more complicated classes).
12:03:27 <Ilari> Exponential? I haven't looked at that in detail.
12:03:52 <Vorpal> Ilari, exponential isn't crazy. Just bad.
12:04:21 <Vorpal> Ilari, for a complexity to be officially crazy you need worse than O(n!)
12:04:49 <Vorpal> sorry, "worse than or equal to" of course
12:04:56 <Vorpal> bogosort is O(n!) and crazy
12:05:24 <Ilari> At least you can make it blow up exponentially in number of states in original DFA. Most probably doubly-exponentally.
12:17:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:17:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
12:38:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
12:40:12 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
12:42:35 -!- olsner has joined.
12:43:09 -!- olsner has quit (Client Quit).
12:43:36 -!- olsner has joined.
13:14:01 -!- yorick has joined.
13:16:16 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
13:22:58 -!- olsner has joined.
13:35:10 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:38:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:00:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:00:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:09:25 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:18:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:42:31 * Sgeo wants to try Microsoft Bob
15:43:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:45:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what do you think about Microsoft Bob?
15:48:21 <Sgeo> I was thinking about why I got into Creatures, I thought about Microsoft Agent, wikied, discovered that Microsoft Bob was a predecessor of sorts
15:48:44 <Sgeo> And it sounds fun. And a bit like this old Greetings Workshop program I used to have and love
15:54:54 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:55:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:06:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:13:52 <oerjan> <Ilari> [...] 4) lexicographically first string described by language can be computed. <-- i think mean shortest, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa is before b in lexicographic order
16:15:18 <oerjan> more relevant, ab is before b
16:18:39 <oerjan> hm i think you can replace it with 4) _some_ string described by the language can be computed
16:18:55 <oerjan> because you can then check every substring
16:22:05 <fizzie> Not if your lexicographical order for different-length strings is defined by padding in front with a lower-than-any-real-symbol blank. That way the shortest strings will always come first.
16:23:19 <oerjan> that's not how lexicographic order is usually defined, fizzie
16:25:35 <fizzie> No, but it's not a too untypical ordering for arbitrary-length strings. Is there a particular term for it?
16:25:49 <fizzie> I sort of assumed that sort of ordering from his descriptions.
16:27:56 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Not if your lexicographical order for different-length strings is defined by padding in front with a lower-than-any-real-symbol blank. That way the shortest strings will always come first. <-- that assumes though that you only have to deal with finite strings
16:28:29 <oerjan> the definition of string usually includes finiteness
16:28:50 <olsner> Vorpal: just compare from the end of the string then
16:29:08 <fizzie> Seems to be the "shortlex order".
16:29:38 <olsner> it's pretty much treating strings as numbers
16:29:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, no need to actually pad to do that
16:30:01 <fizzie> Yes, but it's one way to think of it.
16:31:14 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> I was thinking about why I got into Creatures, I thought about Microsoft Agent, wikied, discovered that Microsoft Bob was a predecessor of sorts <Sgeo> And it sounds fun. And a bit like this old Greetings Workshop program I used to have and love <-- gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
16:31:25 <olsner> Vorpal: I think this order is the same order you'd get from comparing the numbers you'd get from interpreting the strings as base-n numbers (if you have n symbols)
16:31:52 <Vorpal> olsner, oh right. That seems plausible indeed.
16:33:20 <Vorpal> olsner, it would work for finite positive integer n at least I'm pretty sure
16:33:40 <Vorpal> (not that fractional negative ones would be sensible)
16:33:50 <olsner> strings are usually defined with a finite set of symbols
16:34:03 <oerjan> also, integers are usually defined not be fractional
16:34:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, that was what I said though
16:34:38 <oerjan> it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye
16:34:53 <olsner> but what about the fractional integers!?
16:35:11 <Vorpal> I never mentioned them
16:35:35 <oerjan> <Vorpal> (not that fractional negative ones would be sensible)
16:35:44 <Vorpal> "olsner, it would work for finite positive integer n at least I'm pretty sure" "(not that fractional negative ones would be sensible)" <-- the second statement is giving a rational for the first one
16:35:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes that is a rationale for why I restrict it to integers and positive onesx
16:36:01 <oerjan> YOU STILL MADE THEM UP TO USE THEM FOR REASONING
16:36:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, no, they were not integers then
16:36:20 <Vorpal> they were non-integers
16:36:38 <Vorpal> I like your idea of fractional integers though
16:37:00 <Sgeo> 3DNA is basically a 3D Microsoft Bob
16:37:05 <Sgeo> I once liked 3DNA
16:37:12 <fizzie> It's indeed giving a rational, since it's no longer about integers.
16:38:07 <oerjan> well i'm a complex person
16:38:45 <olsner> <oerjan> it's all fun and games until someone loses an i
16:39:25 <oerjan> RECYCLING IS ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY. also i don't recall when/if i said that.
16:40:07 <fizzie> eye(n) is the MATLAB function to return a nxn identity matrix.
16:41:03 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:41:21 <fizzie> Better put that matrix operator away, you'll shoot your I_n out.
16:42:22 <fizzie> Also related! PostrgreSQL time input accept the string "allballs" as representing the UTC midnight.
16:42:32 <fizzie> Since 00:00:00 is all balls.
16:45:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:50:29 <fizzie> fis=> SELECT TIME 'allballs';
16:50:36 <ais523> Gregor: what are you wtfing at?
16:50:45 <Gregor> ais523: What fizzie just said.
16:51:01 <ais523> try "help analyse" and "help analyze" in mysql sometime
16:51:32 <ais523> there are two completely different commands...
16:54:11 <fizzie> Special date/time inputs: "epoch" (1970-01-01 00:00:00+00), "infinity", "-infinity", "now", "today", "tomorrow", "yesterday", "allballs".
16:54:45 <fizzie> (The infinities are later/earlier than all other timestamps, "now" is transaction start time, and the days are midnight today/tomorrow/yesterday.)
16:55:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, about postgres allballs.... why!?
16:55:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, does some silly standard specify it?
16:55:42 <Vorpal> or is there just no reason?
16:56:07 <fizzie> "I'm sure it isn't in any SQL standard ;-). Tom Lockhart is doubtless
16:56:07 <fizzie> responsible for it being in our code; I suppose he put it in because it
16:56:08 <fizzie> is in reasonably common use at JPL."
16:56:11 <fizzie> (From the mailing list.)
16:56:40 <olsner> jet propulsion laboratory?
16:56:49 <olsner> I wonder what use they would have for a database though
16:57:12 <Vorpal> olsner, for storing test results?
16:57:53 <fizzie> Could be just a PostgreSQL developer randomly from JPL doing other stuff there.
16:58:04 <Vorpal> olsner, I mean considering how different a jet engine can behave over the flight envelop you end up with a lot of data from tests.
16:58:08 <fizzie> http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/bsf2-3.php mentions "all balls".
16:58:26 <Vorpal> or was olsner not joking?
16:58:29 <fizzie> NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, yes.
16:58:56 <olsner> fizzie: true, might not be directly related to JPL like that
17:00:01 <fizzie> They do seem to use Postgres there, though.
17:00:07 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:00:09 <Vorpal> 00:00:00.000000 <--- that is some high precision
17:00:12 <fizzie> Google -> http://dsnra.jpl.nasa.gov/software/postgres/
17:00:20 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:01:37 <Vorpal> hm something I was considering before... Not sure if anyone played all the games (and thus is able to compare them) but... How would you compare the battle/combat systems of Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy III (all for SNES)
17:02:32 <ais523> Vorpal: Final Fantasy III (Japan), or Final Fantasy III (US)? They're entirely different games.
17:02:42 <Gregor> ais523: He said "all for SNES"
17:02:43 <Vorpal> ais523, hm... The US one
17:03:00 <ais523> Gregor: good point, the Japanese game was NES, presumably?
17:03:15 <Gregor> The FF3 for SNES is FF6.
17:03:20 <ais523> and yes, what the Americans call Final Fantasy III is actually Final Fantasy VI
17:03:23 <Gregor> Anyway, that's a very broad question :P
17:03:32 <ais523> and that's the name it's given nowadays in remakes, at least in the UK
17:03:38 <Vorpal> they have very different battle systems
17:03:53 <Gregor> Secret of Mana is more like the Zelda series' battle system.
17:03:55 <Vorpal> in how it integrates with the non-battle world for example
17:04:15 <Gregor> Chrono Trigger just uses the scenery, but is otherwise a normal JRPG battle system.
17:04:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed, it doesn't have a separate battle mode as such. That is one main difference.
17:04:22 <Gregor> FF6 is a classic JRPG battle system.
17:04:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, considering personal preference, how would you rank these battle systems?
17:05:39 <Vorpal> same question goes to ais523 if he played the games
17:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, from my completely uninformed perspective, Zelda.
17:06:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, zelda was not involved here?
17:06:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> Secret of Mana is more like the Zelda series' battle system.
17:06:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but it is not relevant in ranking which one you prefer
17:08:04 <Vorpal> for me it is (best battle system to worst): secret of mana, chrono trigger, ff6
17:08:39 * Vorpal waits for Gregor and ais523 to answer
17:09:02 <ais523> Vorpal: err, I haven't played any of the games in question
17:09:17 <myndzi> i don't remember a ton about any of them, but i like the menu based systems best
17:09:20 <ais523> although I've seen other people play some of Chrono Trigger and of FF6, it didn't give a good feel for how the battle system worked
17:09:31 <myndzi> the active ones have novelty value, but i don't like turning my rpgs into an attempt at a brawler
17:09:54 <myndzi> though i kind of enjoyed the tales series's fighter-like battle systtem
17:10:12 <Vorpal> myndzi, I wouldn't call secret of mana that active. It is similar to zelda. But using some sort of circular wheel style menu for spells iirc
17:10:13 <Gregor> Secret of Mana is multi-player capable which is a plus, and that possibility /is/ related to the battle system.
17:10:26 <myndzi> yeah, i don't remember SoM very well
17:10:32 <myndzi> but don't you still have to "run up and whack stuff"?
17:10:33 <ais523> well, Pokémon is multiplayer capable too, and it uses a menu-based battle system
17:10:34 <Gregor> Vorpal: Could be? Is :P
17:10:34 <myndzi> that's the part that annoys me
17:11:02 <myndzi> the hitboxing and all that is fairly crude and you basically have no real chance of getting particularly good at making use of the character control for dodging and stuff
17:11:06 <Vorpal> myndzi, I like being able to retreat from stuff freely and so on
17:11:16 <myndzi> except in situations where it's a fundamental part of playing
17:11:24 <Vorpal> myndzi, it allows a lot more tactics than the fixed style of classical JRPG
17:11:25 <myndzi> like boss fights, which can be like dumbed down shmups
17:11:47 <myndzi> well that's really my complaint; i don't recall ever playing a game with a system like that where it felt particularly tactical
17:11:55 <myndzi> it was more just "run around and try not to get hit"
17:12:06 <myndzi> positioning didn't matter a great deal
17:12:07 <Vorpal> of course the AI for the PCs you are not controlling atm in secret of mana was pretty dumb
17:12:21 <myndzi> which brings it down to timing and attack selection
17:12:25 <myndzi> which is accomplished with menu systems
17:12:53 <myndzi> avoiding enemies in the environment, well, i'll give you that one, but it's usually either trivial or impossible
17:13:03 <myndzi> not much variety there, just a stylistic choice
17:13:24 <Vorpal> myndzi, hm. Also lets you escape even if they notice for slow ones
17:13:28 <myndzi> and i do enjoy being able to choose not to have to screw around with fights constantly, but many games offer you things that let you do that
17:13:46 <myndzi> moogle charm, for example, in ff6 which was one of the original games selected
17:13:52 <myndzi> or whatever it's called
17:14:00 <Vorpal> hm what was that one now again
17:14:24 <myndzi> basically, if i felt like it wasn't a poor mix of shmup, brawler, and rpg, i'd like it more
17:14:30 <Vorpal> myndzi, thing that annoyed me with ff6 was how you had like 17782367 chars and like 6 in your party and you had to leave most on some airship
17:14:31 <myndzi> but i don't particularly mind it
17:14:48 <Vorpal> why not make it like 8 or so then
17:14:55 <myndzi> if you are talking about size of cast
17:15:01 <myndzi> i forget the name, but there was some game with like hundreds
17:15:12 <Vorpal> myndzi, that's just insane
17:15:23 <myndzi> the nature of final fantasy games has enemies in greater numbers than you
17:15:35 <myndzi> because you have the intelligence and a wider variety of skills and strategy
17:15:37 <Vorpal> myndzi, there is no way you can level up and use the skills of all those chars
17:15:45 <myndzi> giving you like 20 PCs at once is a little silly
17:15:54 <myndzi> so games don't really do that
17:16:05 <myndzi> but the reason for a fairly large cast is to provide characters that appeal to different people
17:16:09 <myndzi> not everyone likes the same party
17:16:25 <myndzi> they might like different characters for story reasons, skill reasons, appearance reasons, whatever
17:16:29 <myndzi> so they can select the ones they like
17:16:39 <myndzi> the airship'd members are just the ones they don't like ;)
17:16:53 <Vorpal> myndzi, in general I like something like: one excellent fighter, one or two excellent spell casters, the remaining ones generalists
17:16:55 <myndzi> and unless you're anal retentive like me, many people don't bother to try and keep all party members the same level etc.
17:17:20 <myndzi> sure, but some people like magic a lot, or some people like skull bashers a lot, or some people like LOL RANDOM
17:17:31 <Vorpal> myndzi, I do bother until I give up
17:17:36 <myndzi> some people like to hone their party into an efficient fighting force
17:17:41 <myndzi> some people just like to screw around
17:17:43 <Vorpal> myndzi, anyway there is a game with hundreds as you mentioned
17:17:46 <Vorpal> myndzi, it is called pokemon
17:18:04 <myndzi> and some people devise ridiculous challenges for themselves such as average party level 6 completion of ff6
17:18:21 <myndzi> so yeah, the extra PCs give some variety and choice to suit different people
17:18:29 <myndzi> and no, pokemon wasn't what i was thinking of
17:18:32 <myndzi> lemme see if i can figure it out
17:18:58 <Vorpal> myndzi, it does have hundreds of chars though
17:20:32 <myndzi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Suikoden_V
17:20:39 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `WORDS'
17:21:00 <myndzi> 108 playable characters
17:21:14 <myndzi> this may not be what i was thinking of though
17:21:31 <Vorpal> myndzi, you might as well give up and let your player roll his own char at that point
17:21:41 <Vorpal> myndzi, like in NWN and similar
17:21:53 <myndzi> except you can't roll backstory and the like
17:22:18 <myndzi> and while some people are of the kind that like to flesh out their characters like that
17:22:22 <myndzi> others just like to view the story
17:22:25 <Vorpal> myndzi, how many cds to fit the backstory of 108 chars though
17:22:49 <myndzi> it's not very many bytes to throw in some dialogue and script programming
17:23:01 <Vorpal> myndzi, I was being sarcastic :P
17:24:06 -!- elliott has joined.
17:24:29 <Vorpal> elliott, sgeo found out about MS Bob. Read log for hilarious comments.
17:24:49 <Vorpal> myndzi, if you would rate the story of the games this discussion began about, how would you rate them?
17:24:52 <elliott> Vorpal: I always read the log but you have managed to instill a deadly fear for doing so today.
17:25:15 <myndzi> lolwut: Death Spank: Stars of Virtue
17:25:15 <Vorpal> elliott, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
17:25:32 <elliott> deathspank is ron gilbert!
17:25:34 <Vorpal> myndzi, what sort of game?
17:25:37 <elliott> (creator of monkey island)
17:25:49 <Vorpal> myndzi, I meant... age rating
17:25:59 <elliott> It's not an, uh, adult game X-D
17:26:08 <elliott> I have not actually played it.
17:26:17 <elliott> But point is, it's Ron Gilbert and therefore perfect.
17:26:32 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway you are clearly bullshitting, I highly doubt Sgeo didn't know what ms bob was before :P
17:26:33 <myndzi> anyway, re: stories, while i have played all of them, it's been a long time and i tended not to play any of them to completion (though i think i've beat a fair number)
17:26:34 <Vorpal> and returns something else
17:26:41 <Vorpal> that I do NOT wish to paste
17:26:42 <Sgeo> elliott, I had a vague idea
17:26:43 <myndzi> ff6 is one of my faves just because of kefka
17:26:44 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeathSpank
17:26:51 * Vorpal goes to get the mindbleach
17:26:56 <myndzi> i mean, how can you not love an evil clown guy that gets his kicks by breaking the world?
17:27:07 <Vorpal> just don't google for "Death Spank: Stars of Virtue" without quotes
17:27:17 <myndzi> in general i don't actually pay much heed to the "plot" of CRPGs though
17:27:24 <myndzi> chrono trigger is certainly well loved
17:27:30 <elliott> Vorpal: i only get relevant links
17:27:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't and I'm not logged into gmail
17:28:21 <Vorpal> <myndzi> chrono trigger is certainly well loved <-- indeed. I am replaying it atm.
17:28:28 <elliott> 01:57:54 <Vorpal> screw it. Lets try statically linked
17:28:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it turned out it used libdl
17:28:50 <Vorpal> elliott, so impossible anyway
17:28:57 <elliott> you can statically link libdl i believe
17:29:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe if you use -static it will break though
17:29:12 <Vorpal> which was my first plan
17:29:17 <elliott> 02:45:24 <quintopia> vorpal: i prefer platformers with a kick-ass story
17:29:17 <elliott> 02:45:28 <quintopia> like psychonauts
17:29:25 <Gregor> libdl works just fine statically on glibc/Linux
17:29:35 <elliott> my role here is basically to point out when games were made by old kick-ass adventure game guys
17:29:57 <Gregor> In general the .so's you dlopen in have to be statically linked too.
17:30:06 <elliott> (Schafer = Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, co-designer of MI1, MI2, Day of the Tentacle)
17:30:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, can .so be statically linked?
17:31:16 <elliott> 07:42:31 * Sgeo wants to try Microsoft Bob
17:31:17 <Gregor> ld.so is a special case by any standards, but still :P
17:31:17 <elliott> 07:45:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what do you think about Microsoft Bob?
17:31:17 <elliott> 07:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "XD".
17:31:17 <elliott> 07:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
17:31:17 <elliott> 07:48:21 <Sgeo> I was thinking about why I got into Creatures, I thought about Microsoft Agent, wikied, discovered that Microsoft Bob was a predecessor of sorts
17:31:18 <elliott> 07:48:44 <Sgeo> And it sounds fun. And a bit like this old Greetings Workshop program I used to have and love
17:31:26 <myndzi> ok so i just skimmed the entire list of rpg series on rpgamer
17:31:31 <myndzi> suikoden must be the one i was thinking of
17:31:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't do that.
17:31:37 <myndzi> i don't think any other game has such a dense cast
17:31:39 <elliott> i swear to god, this is conclusive proof that sgeo has been getting stupider since 2007
17:31:44 <myndzi> but i could be mistaken
17:31:46 <Gregor> myndzi: Suikoden was awesome
17:31:50 <elliott> this is close to rock bottom
17:32:08 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't Microsoft Agent something to do with the office assistant thingy?
17:32:23 <Vorpal> why does that involve Creatures?
17:32:31 <Sgeo> Vorpal, the word "agent"
17:32:33 <myndzi> the last time i actively played rpgs was on an emulator years ago
17:32:34 <elliott> it doesn't, read his sentence again
17:32:40 <myndzi> where i tried various PSX rpgs that i rather liked
17:32:45 <myndzi> and eventually they crashed my computer
17:33:03 <myndzi> it wasn't until later that i determined that it was the fucking silicon image sata controller corrupting my disk images
17:33:15 <myndzi> so, i have a lot of interrupted forays that got reasonably far into various games
17:33:24 <myndzi> in general my long term sticktoitiveness is pretty poor though
17:33:58 <elliott> 08:37:00 <Sgeo> 3DNA is basically a 3D Microsoft Bob
17:33:59 <elliott> 08:37:05 <Sgeo> I once liked 3DNA
17:34:13 <Vorpal> myndzi, n64 never had as good RPGs as snes as far as I remember?
17:34:27 <Vorpal> zelda was of course awesome, but that is no RPG
17:34:39 <myndzi> rpgs kinda went from snes to playstation
17:34:44 <Vorpal> myndzi, I never did either.
17:34:48 <myndzi> though i think nintendo got some franchises back
17:34:48 <Gregor> N64 never had an awesome anything and all the N64 Zelda games suck foot.
17:34:53 <myndzi> or at least some contributions
17:35:02 <myndzi> heretic was a computer game?
17:35:08 <Vorpal> well there was paper mario
17:35:12 <Vorpal> which was quite a fun rpg
17:35:14 <myndzi> that maybe got a shitty console adaptation
17:35:16 <Sgeo> I think I got bored because 3DNA was a single-person thing
17:35:29 <Sgeo> And it's not like I used it as my desktop regularly
17:35:32 <Sgeo> I just had fun
17:35:33 <Gregor> elliott: OK, Super Mario 64 is tolerable.
17:35:42 <Gregor> But not as good as SMW, 3D platformers in general aren't a good idea.
17:35:42 <elliott> 08:42:22 <fizzie> Also related! PostrgreSQL time input accept the string "allballs" as representing the UTC midnight.
17:35:42 <elliott> 08:42:32 <fizzie> Since 00:00:00 is all balls.
17:35:44 <Gregor> Never played Paper Mario :P
17:35:49 <elliott> Gregor: Have you ever played Super Mario Galaxy?
17:35:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, decent but not brilliant RPG
17:35:53 <myndzi> yeah, i'm all for sprite based 2d platformers
17:35:56 <elliott> Anyone who thinks 3D platformers suck has to play Galaxy.
17:35:59 <elliott> They will immediately repent.
17:36:06 <Sgeo> I was under the impression that my mom would find it useful though
17:36:07 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: Have you ever played Super Mario Galaxy? <-- it was not N64 though
17:36:11 <Gregor> elliott: I haven't played any games on any system newer than the original Playstation :P
17:36:15 <elliott> Vorpal: <Gregor> But not as good as SMW, 3D platformers in general aren't a good idea.
17:36:17 <Gregor> Except a rare few at friends house.
17:36:17 <elliott> see second half of sentence
17:36:24 <Gregor> Such as Muscle March, greatest game ever.
17:36:25 <myndzi> gregor, haha, i'm in the same category as you :(
17:36:27 <elliott> Gregor: Yah, you need to play Galaxy.
17:36:31 <myndzi> there are so many good rpgs to be played too
17:36:35 <myndzi> but the time investment!
17:36:41 <elliott> Gregor: It is seriously the best.
17:36:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, http://www.3dna.net/
17:37:15 <Sgeo> To use for regular computer use, sure. Although I don't think that occured to me when I tried to set it up for my mom
17:37:17 <myndzi> because navigating a 3d environment is so much more EFFICIENT than double clicking icons
17:37:46 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> To use for regular computer use, sure. Although I don't think that occured to me when I tried to set it up for my mom <-- poor her
17:37:48 <myndzi> right so you know what else i discovered
17:37:49 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, this was a while ago, obviously
17:37:55 <myndzi> you can get some of Dat JRPG Vibe just from watching anime
17:38:01 <myndzi> and you don't have to grind for items at all!
17:38:24 <myndzi> my biggest complaint about many rpgs, particularly final fantasy
17:38:38 <myndzi> is that they seem made so that the only way you can really get the most out of them is to buy strategy guides and the like
17:38:49 <myndzi> the best stuff isn't just obtuse it's downright secret sometimes
17:38:50 <Vorpal> myndzi, I actually like the RPG bit of it. Not really in FF6. but in games like Chrono Trigger yes
17:39:05 <myndzi> "beat the game in this amount of time, have this character as your main guy in this one scene and that's your only shot at getting his ultimate weapon"
17:39:18 <myndzi> err, not beat, but progress through
17:39:18 <Vorpal> myndzi, they did that in FF6?
17:39:35 <Vorpal> myndzi, never played 7
17:39:35 <myndzi> but the trend continues throughout
17:39:45 <myndzi> there are lots of things where you can't just work it out by being smart or getting clues
17:39:55 <myndzi> and they tend to be the things you would enjoy the most
17:39:57 <Vorpal> myndzi, anyway you can google to find the info
17:39:59 <myndzi> badass weapons and spells, etc.
17:40:03 <myndzi> yeah, but why should i have to?
17:40:12 <Vorpal> myndzi, better than paying
17:40:15 <myndzi> my point isn't that i can find the info, it's that i can't discover it
17:40:27 <myndzi> well, not without a ridiculous amount of work in many cases
17:40:51 <myndzi> and i already play most of these games from a rather completionist point of view
17:41:00 <myndzi> i feel wrong if i go through a dungeon and don't test every wall ;)
17:41:10 <myndzi> some final fantasy games, including 6, are guilty also of
17:41:19 <Vorpal> myndzi, well duh. That is common for a nethack player too :P
17:41:19 <myndzi> "don't get this specific chest, and when you come back later it's something better"
17:41:30 <myndzi> what kind of BS is that?
17:41:50 <myndzi> and how are you supposed to discover something like thatt on your own, even after having played the game and therefore knowing which areas you can come back to?
17:41:51 <Vorpal> myndzi, chrono trigger has that though! But it is logical there. You get something from the chest in the future first and then from the old period in time
17:42:07 <myndzi> well that i can forgive a little
17:42:11 <Vorpal> myndzi, getting it from the old period first would remove it from the future
17:42:12 <myndzi> but they KNOW that players are like GIMME GIMME :P
17:42:27 <myndzi> still, it's a game about some time travelin so sure
17:42:31 <Vorpal> myndzi, it is consistent too over a handful of places
17:42:41 <myndzi> that is acceptable too
17:42:47 <myndzi> i still don't like it that much though
17:42:52 <Vorpal> myndzi, mostly those black locked chests you know
17:43:08 <myndzi> this tendency really annoyed me with Cave Story actually
17:43:12 <myndzi> which is an otherwise wonderful game
17:43:17 <Vorpal> myndzi, I haven't played that
17:43:19 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, can we agree that AS A TOY TO PLAY WITH OCCASIONALLY, 3DNA is not evil?
17:43:27 <myndzi> the only way to get the "good ending" is basically to skip something that is useful and obvious
17:43:35 <myndzi> at least, to be able to attempt to get the good ending ;p
17:43:40 <myndzi> it's a doujin platformer
17:43:51 <myndzi> it's cute and entertaining and also quite difficult if you go for hell mode
17:44:10 <myndzi> nethack isn't a platformer
17:44:22 <Vorpal> myndzi, fair enough. Nintendo hard then?
17:44:37 <myndzi> i'm no game whiz, but when you make it to hell, let's say that it's comparable in difficulty to IWBTG without as many cheap tricks
17:45:01 <ais523> IWBTG is all about the cheap tricks, ofc, they're what makes it interesting
17:45:17 <Vorpal> myndzi, anyway you can compare between genres by comparing percentage of started games that were won :P
17:45:33 <myndzi> when you have a platformer that you can save in
17:45:37 <myndzi> you don't "start" many games
17:45:49 <myndzi> here, i'll link you a video
17:45:57 <Vorpal> hard to compare to a game that don't allow you to go back to previous saves
17:46:04 <myndzi> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwkquZV-nkY
17:46:06 <myndzi> this is a speed run though
17:46:09 <Vorpal> comparing df and nh would be easier
17:46:18 <Vorpal> myndzi, tool-assisted?
17:46:22 <myndzi> for the record, i've made it to the end boss, but i got sidetracked by work and never came back
17:46:28 <myndzi> so i haven't technically beaten the game ;p
17:46:37 <myndzi> it doesn't appear to be TAS
17:46:40 <myndzi> it's not an emulated game
17:47:20 <myndzi> anyway it is a really nice game and you should try it if you like platformers at all
17:47:22 <myndzi> there is an english patch
17:48:01 <elliott> Vorpal: cave story is good
17:48:11 <elliott> i haven't completed it but it's really nice
17:48:16 <elliott> beautiful graphical and musical style
17:48:20 <elliott> not that hard i wouldn't say
17:48:27 <myndzi> i completed two of three endings
17:48:33 <myndzi> it doesn't get particularly hard unless you want the best ending
17:48:46 <myndzi> and mainly because of the level i linked in that video
17:48:55 <myndzi> which you don't even SEE unless you do the aforementioned crap about skipping an obvious useful item
17:49:01 <myndzi> AND do a couple tricks
17:49:13 <elliott> that looks to be only a speedrun of one level
17:49:31 <myndzi> which is what i was talking about
17:49:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah if you like platformers it look fun
17:51:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it has a plot, if you care so much about that. :p
17:51:32 <myndzi> and a cute robot girl!
17:51:35 <Vorpal> elliott, good but I prefer the depth of the story when interacting with NPCs in a well written RPG
17:51:53 <elliott> Vorpal: It has tons of NPCs to interact with. :p
17:52:03 <Vorpal> elliott, and it's a platformer? really? huh
17:52:04 <elliott> I'd say it's even a platformer/RPG hybrid.
17:52:11 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds interesting
17:52:15 <myndzi> not a whole lot of RPG to it, but yeah
17:52:18 <Vorpal> elliott, do you mean hybrid like super mario rpg?
17:52:19 <myndzi> it's more like a 'metroid rpg'
17:52:27 <myndzi> where you get upgrades to your life and weaponry
17:52:32 <elliott> Hey cool, there's a Linux port.
17:52:34 <elliott> http://shii.org/pixel/linuxdoukutsu-1.01.tar.bz2
17:52:42 <Vorpal> elliott, but it is very strange for a snes game, don't you agree?
17:52:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't played it.
17:52:57 <Vorpal> elliott, ah... It is isomeric
17:53:06 <elliott> "Your experience with the Linux port is, unfortunately, the same as mine. It's not your netbook at fault; the Linux port doesn't seem to be very well optimized. I found Wine to be the way to go as well."
17:53:11 <elliott> http://shii.org/pixel/cavestory.zip then. :p
17:53:14 <Vorpal> elliott, that alone makes it strange for a snes era platform-rpg hybrid
17:53:34 <myndzi> it's a fairly recent PC game
17:53:38 <Vorpal> myndzi, I didn't say that
17:53:44 <Vorpal> myndzi, I said that about super mario rpg
17:54:05 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe later. Playing chrono trigger atm
17:54:22 <myndzi> anyway, interacting with npcs eh... maybe another vote for suikoden ;)
17:54:36 <elliott> I've always loved the author's description:
17:54:37 <myndzi> seems like it should have a lot of breadth at least
17:54:37 <elliott> "Cave Story is a jumping-and-shooting action game.
17:54:37 <elliott> Explore the caves until you reach the ending.
17:54:37 <elliott> You can also save your game and continue from where you left off."
17:54:37 <Vorpal> myndzi, lots of npcs too?
17:54:49 <Vorpal> elliott, is zzo behind it+
17:54:58 <myndzi> Vorpal: i was thinking more like pcs = "in depth npcs"
17:55:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the last line!
17:55:10 <myndzi> since you can interact with them moreso than you could npcs in normal console rpgs
17:55:36 <Vorpal> myndzi, well pc to me, means one you can have in your party and can control in battle and so on
17:55:45 <myndzi> you might also enjoy Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which is an anime series but is epic and awesome ;)
17:55:55 <myndzi> Vorpal: yeah, suikoden is the one with like a hundred PCs
17:55:58 <elliott> now to continue on worriedly with the logs
17:56:14 <Vorpal> elliott, it gets better after. Less sgeo.
17:56:14 <myndzi> but the point of it is that each of them is a different 'character' and they have their own plot situations and stuff, i think
17:56:16 <myndzi> note: i haven't played it
17:56:22 <elliott> ais523: FINALLY YOU ARE HERE
18:01:40 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
18:01:40 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:11:44 <Sgeo> http://notalwaysright.com/her-banking-days-are-numbered/10397 this is a validation failure
18:22:24 <olsner> the system successfully failed to recognize an invalid account number :D
18:23:10 <ais523> <__moz> As to the 'phone warning, I was surprised to find that it wasn't solely due to people using a microwave to dry their 'phones out after getting them wet. Some people genuinely believe that a microwave could recharge the battery, and at least one of those has discovered that a 'phone doesn't work so well once you let the (thick black) magic smoke out.
18:23:26 <ais523> a TDWTF quote that reminded me of Sgeo, or more specifically the sort of people he seems to be surrounded with
18:25:12 * Sgeo ponders a battery charger that could work like that. Certainly it's possible with other frequencies on the EM spectrum (solar panels)
18:25:31 <olsner> plenty off stuff is charged through induction
18:26:13 <elliott> ais523: and now you're REALLY HERE
18:26:14 <olsner> e.g. waterproof electric toothbrushes
18:26:34 <ais523> elliott: indeed, although I might disappear a bit in a while
18:26:39 <elliott> ais523: I have written an Underload interpreter smarter than derlo. That optimises Church numerals.
18:26:43 <ais523> I was trying to avoid someone at work, so I was turning up only when necessary
18:26:49 <ais523> elliott: yay, it had to be done eventually
18:27:16 <elliott> ais523: Me and oerjan had agreed that if you responded to that question with "oh, I wrote one of those too, but never told anyone about it", you would be banned. :P
18:27:38 <elliott> Anyway it's written in Haskell but I'm half rewriting it in C every now and then.
18:27:50 <ais523> hey, there are limits to my Underload-related prescience
18:28:01 <elliott> I think derlo is probably _faster_ for most programs, but anything involving heavy use of Church numerals will probably do okay.
18:28:07 <elliott> Unless it does addition. I'm not sure it handles addition.
18:28:16 <elliott> But it does use oerjan's insanely overcomplicated algorithm for detecting Church numeral literals.
18:28:35 <elliott> ais523: here's the code if you want to take a peek: http://sprunge.us/YGiM
18:28:54 <elliott> ais523: including the best line ever
18:28:56 <elliott> where eq = I# (reallyUnsafePtrEquality# p q) == 1
18:29:13 <ais523> reallyUnsafePtrEquality#
18:29:27 <ais523> does that do something like, um, compare pointers in the underlying representation of its arguments?
18:29:27 <elliott> reallyUnsafePtrEquality# :: a -> a -> Int#
18:29:40 <elliott> And returns an unboxed int.
18:29:48 <elliott> Which I then box with I#, and compare to 1.
18:30:11 <elliott> ais523: In fact I think it's even possible that (reallyUnsafePtrEquality# x x) is 0#.
18:30:15 <ais523> so it basically returns false if two things are different, and an unspecified value if the things are the same
18:30:32 <elliott> ais523: It returns either 0# or 1#.
18:30:40 <ais523> unspecified 0# or 1#, then
18:30:43 <elliott> ais523: If it returns 1#, the two things are the same.
18:30:50 <elliott> Otherwise, anything is possible.
18:30:58 <ais523> yep, that's what I said just in reverse
18:30:59 <elliott> where eq = I# (reallyUnsafePtrEquality# p q) == 1
18:31:06 <elliott> I just do it because toQ is sloooow.
18:31:11 <elliott> toQ (Catn p q) = Quote (xs++ys) where Quote xs = toQ p; Quote ys = toQ q
18:31:11 <elliott> toQ (Rept n p) = Quote $ concat (genericReplicate n p') where Quote p' = toQ p
18:31:39 <elliott> ais523: I also wrote an Underload test suite, just because nobody gets * right
18:31:54 <elliott> and oerjan has been working on minimisation like usual
18:32:11 <ais523> I have to go for a while, but I'll stay connected and be back in a while
18:32:24 <elliott> ais523: http://sprunge.us/fLWW
18:32:27 <elliott> There's the link to burden.ul FWIW
18:33:11 <elliott> ais523: For when you get back, note that the channel's topic is now officially http://esolangs.org/wiki/CRTL.
18:35:30 <oerjan> today i have become less convinced that :()^ isn't TC.
18:36:07 <oerjan> but if it is it looks tricky to achieve
18:37:18 <oerjan> basically i think it's somewhat possible a self-deleting representation like the one for :()^~ could be made to work
18:40:38 <oerjan> and if so the two-counter minsky machine for :()^! could be ported
18:42:05 <elliott> oerjan: maybe each quotation looks at the TOS and uses that to decide whether to delete itself or to execute?
18:42:32 <oerjan> but it looks like representing PQ would be tricky. i had a representation idea that would work simply for PQ but which cannot possibly work for quotes
18:42:55 <oerjan> a concatenation of two terms
18:43:22 <oerjan> if you know how to represent each of them, how do you represent their concatenation
18:43:59 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, ats does have compile-time error support for that.
18:44:26 <elliott> thankfully ats has way too much type theory for pikhq to ever udnerstand it.
18:44:27 <Sgeo> elliott, off-by-ones in general, or that specific case of an off-by-one?
18:45:07 <Sgeo> elliott, when you say that, don't you usually mean me?
18:45:34 <oerjan> looking at the TOS is pretty obvious. the problem with :()^ is how to _get_ something you choose to be on the top of stack when you run the quotation.
18:46:16 <oerjan> but there's one thing you can do, :^ runs the quotation with a copy of itself on top of stack
18:46:17 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, can we agree that AS A TOY TO PLAY WITH OCCASIONALLY, 3DNA is not evil
18:46:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
18:46:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:46:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes, it uses strong ai to detect every off-by-one possible.
18:49:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:53:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, even Bonzi Buddy can be a fun toy if isolated to where it can't harm anything
18:54:51 <Sgeo> Isn't there something I despised once?
18:54:58 <Sgeo> Forget the name...
18:56:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo even supported the Asylum project, which was designed to "make building software from svn easier". The genius concept behind this was to take a normal shell script, and wrap it in fake xml <command1>, <command2>, ..., <commandN> because the project lead had no idea how to read lines sequentially from a file.
18:56:33 <elliott> (Okay, so he posted that to the Daily WTF, but he still got to the point of joining the IRC channel and volunteering to help.)
18:58:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm afraid you have a defective hate lobe.
18:59:04 <pikhq> We're going to have to operate.
18:59:34 <Sgeo> I'm not psychic! How was I supposed to know that the person would be an idiot!
19:00:07 <pikhq> The entire concept was stupid!
19:01:11 <elliott> Sgeo has a defective brain lobe.
19:01:22 <elliott> Like I said, he's been getting progressively stupider over the period of many slow years.
19:01:47 <elliott> (Note: I have, in fact, tried "being nice" in the past, to little success.)
19:02:07 <Sgeo> elliott, Asylum wasn't recent
19:02:57 <Sgeo> pikhq, I joined up because someone from Circe did, I think!
19:10:48 <olsner> this Asylum thing looks ... useful
19:11:12 <elliott> olsner: it's like a shell script but useless!
19:13:07 <olsner> print "\nhere comes uncompressing of the source this takes about 1 minute and 10 seconds. Please be patient"
19:13:49 <Sgeo> olsner, you found the Asylum source?
19:13:53 <Sgeo> Lemme see, I'm nostalgic
19:14:13 <olsner> http://asylum.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/asylum/trunk/
19:14:36 <olsner> this wasn't xml though, just python
19:15:02 <Sgeo> olsner, I was told we would need to make an XML parser
19:15:44 <olsner> of course! python is not enough to poorly emulate shell scripts, you need an XML parser too
19:16:14 <Sgeo> "Special thanks to: The people at #python at irc.freenode.net for their advice"
19:16:35 <Sgeo> Too bad their advice never included "Just stop. Right now."
19:16:48 <olsner> hmm, #python was involved? that would explain a lot of how bad it turned out
19:17:22 <ais523> does anyone use python as a sh replacement?
19:17:26 <ais523> like people do with perl sometimes?
19:17:51 <elliott> hmm, random thought: rafb.net/p/ getting deleted has affected me more than geocities
19:17:56 <Sgeo> "Well the purpose of this script is to build Songbirds svn source just by running this script. Including downloading and doing all the steps that are needed to get it installed
19:17:57 <Sgeo> 20and working on your linux box."
19:18:05 <elliott> seriously dude, shut down your IMMENSELY POPULAR pastebin if you want to but don't delete all the damn pastes
19:18:21 <elliott> admittedly rafb used to delete pastes after one day by default iirc which is terrible too :/
19:18:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: NOBODY KNOWS.
19:18:32 <Sgeo> "We are working on making asylum work for all svn open source projects. instead of just python....
19:18:32 <Sgeo> 41 It should happen sometime soon."
19:18:45 <Sgeo> ...I think they meant Songbird there
19:19:16 <ais523> I don't expect pastebin pastes to persist
19:19:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ... stop being Vorpal
19:20:01 <Sgeo> elliott, I never mentioned "Asylum" in the post
19:20:05 <Sgeo> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/4361/99979.aspx
19:20:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I did try Googling it, but it's hard to pin down
19:20:08 <elliott> ais523: no, but I have put plenty of code up on a pastebin, lost the code carelessly, and then have been unable to retrieve it later :)
19:20:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ask Sgeo, duh; he's the one who posted it
19:20:25 <elliott> ais523: I don't see why pastebin pastes _shouldn't_ persist, anyway
19:20:27 <ais523> wow, someone actually edited the sandbox
19:20:56 <elliott> ais523: oh, err, zzo ...found... your language
19:21:00 <ais523> it's rare that that one's changed
19:21:04 <elliott> in case you haven't checked the talk page lately.
19:21:12 <ais523> elliott: he found it in-channel first
19:21:21 <elliott> wait, have you been logreading?
19:21:25 <ais523> it's interesting to see the zzo spin on things
19:21:28 <ais523> and no, I was here at the time
19:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, it can be, but unfortunately the incessant "USE CWEB" and "PLAY MY GAMES" makes it more worthwhile just to ignore him.
19:22:30 <ais523> you can't just ignore zzo38! you'd lose a vital part of Internet culture!
19:22:48 <ais523> (seriously, you can go to a random channel and mention zzo38 and there are people who have heard of him)
19:22:55 <zzo38> I am on here right now, in case you have questions that I would need to answer, and whatever
19:23:19 <elliott> <ais523> (seriously, you can go to a random channel and mention zzo38 and there are people who have heard of him)
19:23:33 <elliott> but I think it may just be cognitive bias on your part, ais523 :P
19:23:37 <Gregor> zzo38 is world-famous.
19:23:41 <elliott> (i.e. you only enter channels that are likely to have heard of zzo38)
19:24:04 <ais523> also, it was quite a large channel
19:24:07 * elliott tries it in #esoteric-minecraft
19:24:15 <elliott> ais523: wasn't it #nethack? i think you said that
19:24:23 <elliott> <elliott> HAS ANYONE HEAR HEARD OF ZZO38
19:24:26 <zzo38> Try it, I do not know how well it is going to work but you can try, and even write a report if you want to about the statistics you get from it.
19:24:30 <ais523> which a) increases the chance that someone's there who's heard of him, b) increases the chance that someone's there who has his name on highlight
19:24:42 <ais523> elliott: also, #tasvideos
19:24:51 <ais523> which doesn't have a large overlap with #esoteric (I think just me and Ilari)
19:26:00 <elliott> well zzo38 does ZZT stuff doesn't he?
19:26:04 <elliott> I'd expect an overlap with that and TASing
19:26:12 <zzo38> Yes I have done ZZT stuff.
19:26:21 <zzo38> And also MegaZeux.
19:26:29 -!- vovten has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:26:37 <olsner> that looks like it's pronounced megasucks
19:27:11 <zzo38> olsner: Not quite.
19:27:48 <zzo38> ais523: I wrote a note in the [[Talk:Checkout]] page, can you read this note please?
19:28:00 <ais523> zzo38: I read it, I just couldn't think of anything to say in response
19:28:41 <elliott> ais523: here's a factoid you'll like: Template Haskell, a macro system for Haskell, does gensym with a monad
19:28:45 <ais523> and still can't, in fact
19:29:17 <ais523> I apologise for my lack of imagination
19:29:26 <ais523> elliott: well, monads are pretty basic in Haskell
19:29:52 <elliott> it's just amusing to think of gensym as referentially transparent and therefore requiring a monad
19:30:29 <zzo38> OK. Currently it does not actually have the list of commands and their numbers, but do you think what I wrote is sufficient? Is there anything wrong with it? If I ever write a emulator I would make it use the binary format as input, probably.
19:31:04 <ais523> it's more that I didn't think of the concept of using a binary format with Checkout at all
19:31:14 <ais523> although it makes sense that individual emulators, and individual GPUs, would have one
19:31:49 <zzo38> Yes the GPU has its own binary format. This binary format I made is just a kind of intermediate binary format.
19:32:07 <zzo38> It is possible to convert between the standard Checkout text format and this binary format.
19:32:34 <ais523> I thought of using /7 for the preprocessor, btw, but it wouldn't really fit
19:32:47 <ais523> I might use /- to make it clear that it's completely different from actual execution
19:32:56 <ais523> (the preprocessor isn't designed yet, but one is obviously necessary)
19:34:09 <zzo38> Yes you are right. However, the /7 in the binary format is just used to specify how it is encoded, when converted to text format the /7 is not actually there.
19:34:27 <elliott> remember TkTech who was in here a while ago?
19:35:02 <elliott> oh, it was after PH incredibly-transparently impersonated Notch in #minecraft, got banned, and TkTech got an IRCop friend to abuse his position of power to figure out what channels PH was in
19:35:03 <ais523> (that's in response to elliott)
19:35:12 <elliott> which, obviously, didn't exactly endear him to us
19:35:41 <ais523> it seems sufficiently against Freenode rules that ircops would be allowed to get involved if they really wanted to regardless
19:35:49 <elliott> ais523: Err, long story, but suffice to say that he didn't act even vaguely seriously and didn't even bother changing his ident, but got insanely worshipped anyway
19:35:56 <elliott> also, Notch isn't a registered username
19:35:56 <ais523> also, presumably they might check if he was in here and impersonating, say, Chris Pressey or maybe Graue
19:36:14 <elliott> ais523: it wasn't an "official" thing, though
19:36:29 <elliott> We asked how the hell he found this place and he said he had links with ircop friends.
19:36:46 <ais523> is the upshot of this, that much of #minecraft is idiotic enough to believe an obvious troll is their glorious implementor?
19:36:59 <ais523> also, technically it should be ##minecraft if Notch isn't involved in it
19:37:26 <elliott> ais523: Yes; what I was going to follow on with was that TkTech is now hilariously whois-stalking someone in #minecraft for no apparent reason whatsoever and being all accusatory, but if nobody here remembers him it's irrelevant
19:37:33 <elliott> (Vorpal eventually got him to go away by complaining loudly about his away-message script)
19:37:51 -!- Vonlebio has joined.
19:38:08 <elliott> ais523: what, complaining?
19:38:15 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Client Quit).
19:38:23 <ais523> complaining about away messages as a means to get someone to leave a channel
19:38:32 <ais523> normally it just gets them to turn their public away messages off
19:38:33 <elliott> well, he hadn't talked for most of the day, and then his away-nick script kicked in, and Vorpal just kept pinging him about how annoying it is until he got fed up and left
19:39:08 <elliott> ooh, looks like TkTech is abusing his oper friends again to get dirt on this random guy in #minecraft
19:39:57 <ais523> perhaps he's an undercover oper himself?
19:40:29 <ais523> I know on Slashnet, there are people who come into channels you're in and spout random languages just as a result of you /whoising them
19:40:35 <ais523> (I haven't done it myself, but other people have)
19:40:44 <elliott> he's gone on to yelling at PH like he's the devil himself for calling the cyberstalking creepy
19:41:00 <ais523> people would yell at the devil? it wouldn't seem very effective...
19:41:02 <elliott> ais523: heh, /whois notification?
19:41:32 <elliott> Gregor: You should add the codu logs to robots.txt. :p
19:41:37 <olsner> the server tells clients when their user is being whois:ed?
19:41:39 <ais523> elliott: he's an ircop, I assume he has some way of knowing he's being /whoised
19:41:46 <ais523> perhaps hooked into the ircd code
19:41:50 <ais523> there's no way he could do it otherwise
19:41:56 <elliott> Gregor: They're a liability :P
19:42:55 <elliott> I'm really tempted to bring up the fact that the channel should have two #s in front of its name, but he'd just snap back that so should #esoteric, and he's been here longer than me, and I'm evil scum, and shut up.
19:43:09 <ais523> well, does #esoteric have rights to the name?
19:43:21 <elliott> ais523: more than #minecraft
19:43:31 <elliott> ais523: especially since we vastly predate the policy; #minecraft definitely does not
19:43:46 <ais523> I could pretty easily put a message in an admin-change-only page in Esolang, which is pretty much Freenode's standard for verification
19:43:46 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PREFIX I like the part where this isn't esoteric at all
19:43:52 <Phantom_Hoover> We do represent the de facto body for esolang research and development.
19:43:56 <ais523> but I'm not sure if esolangs.org would have rights to the name
19:44:00 <elliott> that would be an argument for #esolang, not #esoteric
19:44:08 <ais523> esoteric.voxelperfect.net?
19:44:15 <olsner> as far as I'm concerned this is the official IRC channel of the esoteric programming language community :D
19:44:19 <elliott> ais523: I'll go register hello.sfoidjfoisdjfo.org
19:44:33 <elliott> or maybe "microsoft-windows"
19:44:41 <ais523> elliott: well, I don't know if hello.org would give you rights to #hello either
19:44:56 <ais523> would you think python.com should have rights to #python?
19:45:14 <ais523> (note: python.com is rather different from python.org; some of my friends at University go there by mistake every now and then)
19:45:21 <elliott> (note: this opinion is influenced by disliking Python and _hating_ #python)
19:45:34 <elliott> ((worst channel ever... ok apart from every efnet channel))
19:46:01 <elliott> <TkTech> For anyone who still cares about Phantom_Hoover, here's the chatlog from his blatant trolling attempt
19:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> TkTech> For anyone who still cares about Phantom_Hoover, here's the chatlog from his blatant trolling attempt
19:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <TkTech> https://codu.org/projects/trac/esotericlogs/changeset/243%3A17617b496c58
19:46:30 <ais523> wait, blatant trolling in #esoteric?
19:46:40 <elliott> ais523: no, the #minecraft stuff was mentioned in #esoteric when it happened
19:46:43 <ais523> it's happened, but it's not normally PH who's doing it
19:46:48 <elliott> <elliott> TkTech: so how many kicks a day would you say you get on average from pointless, confusing cyberstalking and witchhunts?
19:46:49 <elliott> <elliott> arithmetic mean would do, or median
19:46:53 <elliott> * ChanServ gives channel operator status to TkTech
19:46:53 <elliott> * TkTech sets ban on *!*elliott@unaffiliated/elliott
19:46:53 <elliott> * TkTech sets ban on *!*phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486
19:46:53 <elliott> * You have been kicked from #minecraft by TkTech (elliott)
19:47:16 <ais523> yep, people do report trolling attempts in #esoteric sometimes
19:47:28 <ais523> which is strange because a) it's publicly logged, and b) I'm here and dislike that sort of thing
19:47:35 <ais523> although I can't do much except yell incoherently
19:47:46 <elliott> 20:20 < elliott_> this channel should be ##minecraft
19:47:46 <elliott> 20:20 -!- mode/#minecraft [+b *!*elliott@91.104.239.*] by TkTech
19:47:46 <elliott> 20:20 -!- elliott_ was kicked from #minecraft by TkTech [elliott_]
19:47:46 <elliott> is it against freenode TOS to ban someone for reporting a policy violation?
19:47:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: in which case, it's true that trolls here aren't usually you, because they aren't ever you
19:47:59 <ais523> elliott: I don't know, I'll checl
19:48:15 <ais523> also, is Minecraft open source?
19:48:21 -!- TLUL has joined.
19:48:30 <ais523> if not, that's a vaguely obvious policy vio
19:48:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... uhh, E_WORKSFORME
19:48:35 <ais523> as in, wrong network for the channel
19:48:39 <elliott> ais523: untrue, ##windows is accepted
19:48:44 <elliott> just, it has to be a ##-channel
19:49:02 -!- Vonlebio has joined.
19:49:08 <ais523> ##windows makes sense, in that open source stuff often needs to know about Windows in order to work well
19:49:19 <elliott> ais523: well, mcmap is open source!
19:49:22 <elliott> and needs to know about Minecraft!
19:49:32 <elliott> 17# So yeah This part will speed up the code to the point of being the same as compiled C or such. If you plan to use this script alot
19:49:32 <elliott> 18# I recommend you downloading and installing it. You can grab it here http://psyco.sf.net. So install that shit and be done with :-p
19:49:39 <ais523> elliott: that's a reasonable argument
19:49:43 <elliott> Psyco totally speeds up os.system.
19:49:46 <Phantom_Hoover> * ChanServ gives channel operator status to redditalien
19:49:46 <Phantom_Hoover> * redditalien removes channel operator status from TkTech
19:50:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: how are you watching what's going on? as Vonlebio?
19:50:23 <elliott> heh this is ridiculous, tktech has gone utterly nuts
19:51:00 <elliott> this is getting wildly off-topic
19:51:06 <elliott> Do it in #esoteric-minecraft instead :P
19:51:35 <ais523> elliott: there are quite a lot of rules for single-# channels, determining what's allowed, what's more allowed than others in case there's a conflict, and what definitely isn't
19:51:49 <olsner> elliott: psyco will totally speed up make and tar when they're called from python
19:51:57 -!- Vonlebio has left (?).
19:51:59 <ais523> "Groups on freenode which clearly do not have claim on a name, or whose activities are considered to be off-topic, will not generally be given administrative control over primary channels bearing a given name or name prefix." is the only rule that definitively says you can't get a single-#
19:52:17 <elliott> ais523: I think #minecraft is probably never going to be acted against because it's big
19:52:32 <elliott> also, because TkTech would just be all "I GOOGLED THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT AND THEY HAVE TIES TO PH AND ELLIOTT, EVIL PERSISTENT TROLLS"
19:52:33 <Sgeo> Wait, that's a double-whammy against us
19:53:11 <ais523> for #esoteric, we count as "Informal FOSS community projects and other projects producing broadly-licensed output.", I think; we can be beaten to the name by groups in that category who've used the name for longer (are there any longer-lasting esoteric programming groups?), or by " 1. Non-govermental organizations, standards organizations, government entities, formal news organizations, corporations, businesses and individuals with legally valid
19:53:37 <elliott> well, cpressey adopted the term esoteric for esolangs
19:53:43 <elliott> but esoteric was in use previously to mean some subtle but important detail
19:53:58 <elliott> e.g., "the working of the database flogger under conditions of intense load is somewhat esoteric; ..."
19:53:59 <ais523> so IOW, we're allowed to use #esoteric, our "informal" name, so long as there isn't a legal claim to the name by someone else
19:54:09 <elliott> cpressey, at least, has "endorsed" this channel for the esolang purpose by being in here
19:54:11 <ais523> also, cpressey isn't, by himself, a community, although he's getting there
19:54:14 <elliott> and <elliott> e.g., "the working of the database flogger under conditions of intense load is somewhat esoteric; ..."
19:54:20 <elliott> which you can't really "own"
19:54:27 <ais523> yep, and which doesn't count as the name of a community
19:54:30 <elliott> so I think as far as esoteric has a vaguely FOSS-related meaning as a community, we're it
19:54:43 <ais523> yep, as long as we produce broadly-licensed output
19:54:55 <ais523> which we do, with PD wiki edits and interpreters under a wide range of open source licenses
19:54:58 <olsner> can cat's eye technology claim the #esoteric name for us if required?
19:55:14 <elliott> olsner: cpressey has been in here since 2004 or so
19:55:20 <elliott> which is close enough to an endorsement as we'd need
19:55:42 <ais523> hmm, I think the claim actually goes to esoteric.sange.fi, the mailing list
19:55:47 <ais523> assuming it exists enough to demand it
19:55:59 <ais523> being the oldest esolangs community with the word "esoteric" in its name
19:56:02 <elliott> ais523: they stole the term from cpressey :)
19:56:05 <ais523> (it predates the wiki, doesn't it?)
19:56:10 <ais523> elliott: it's not about the ownership of the name
19:56:14 <olsner> is that mailing list still alive?
19:56:17 <elliott> ais523: I wonder where Befunge-97 and the like were designed?
19:56:19 <ais523> it's about the length of time you've been in a community with that name
19:56:31 <elliott> olsner: it delivers a lot of spam, and every year or two, a "IS THIS THING STILL ON" message
19:56:39 <ais523> who ran esoteric.sange.fi anyway?
19:56:42 <elliott> some of the lists can't even be subscribed to thanks to bitrotting software
19:56:49 <elliott> ais523: that's a good question
19:56:49 <olsner> elliott: ok, good thing I'm not on it then :)
19:56:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:57:07 <ais523> it could be fun to all suddenly revive it some point and act as if nothing had happened
19:57:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:57:56 -!- elliott has set topic: «Tra átekidáwakin» trakidawakin. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:58:02 <olsner> well, if it's been dead for years, I'd say that nothing *has* happened :)
19:58:34 <ais523> I mean, as if it had been used all along
19:59:29 <olsner> could populate the archive with some fakes, reply to the threads, act confused when people complain about not having seen the e-mail you're replying to
19:59:43 <elliott> I just /whois'd TkTech; let's see if he enters here!
20:00:43 <zzo38> I do not need worry about the Freenode policies too much for my own projects because I put the channels in my own computer (and I am the only one who can 'register' channels, meaning that they exist when empty, have topic message, and are logged). Although, I am still probably not violating Freenode policies, but I put it in my own computer anyways (one feature it has is automatic logging by server).
20:01:17 <ais523> I don't think Freenode much care about what your own IRC server's rules are
20:02:26 <zzo38> You are correct, they probably don't care. What I meant is that even if I did make the channels on Freenode, it would not be against their policy.
20:03:12 <elliott> can you stop a channel appearing in /list?
20:05:03 <zzo38> HELP CMODE tells you all the channel modes.
20:07:34 <elliott> anyway, on to more fun things
20:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Relevant to what was being discussed a few minutes back: http://sprunge.us/VENB
20:07:59 <elliott> ais523: I've attempted to extend bitwise operations to the full Z
20:08:07 <elliott> ais523: for a turing-complete OISC
20:08:28 <ais523> how are you going to do bitshift-equivalents?
20:08:34 <elliott> AND, OR and XOR are all pretty obvious, well, except (negative xor positive)
20:08:39 <elliott> negative xor negative, that is
20:08:48 <elliott> because negative integers start with infinite 1s
20:08:57 <elliott> ais523: erm, you can just do them directly, can't you?
20:09:11 <ais523> oh, you said nand-based
20:09:17 <ais523> I thought that implied it didn't do anything else
20:09:36 <elliott> ais523: I'm not entirely sure how it's going to work yet
20:09:53 <elliott> you load up memory space, which is just a finite list of Zs
20:10:03 <elliott> (a1,a2,a3) => [a1] = [a2] NAND [a3]
20:10:06 <ais523> but I have no idea if that even makes sense
20:10:10 <elliott> so three literal addresses
20:10:25 <elliott> (a1,a2,a3) => [a1] := -([a2] AND [a3]) - 1
20:11:18 <elliott> ais523: I'm not sure NAND is so "universal" with infinite bits, though
20:11:55 <ais523> hmm, the BBC's technology program just explained that "OS X", as in the Apple operating system, is pronounced like the letter X not the number 10 because it's based on UNIX
20:12:02 <ais523> I'm not sure whether to believe them or not
20:12:24 <ais523> NAND's only universal if logical; bitwise NAND isn't
20:12:24 <olsner> I'd say it's pronounced like the letter X because it's written with the letter X
20:12:27 <elliott> ais523: It's pronounced "Mac OS Ten" officially.
20:12:35 <elliott> their reasoning is... bizarre
20:12:44 <elliott> olsner: Apple always pronounces it Ten, at least.
20:12:50 <ais523> apparently someone sent them an email complaining about their pronunciation
20:12:50 <elliott> Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9, Mac OS X.
20:13:07 <ais523> and that's the explanation they gave for it
20:13:11 <elliott> ais523: "Knoll's Law of Media Accuracy: Everything you read in the newspapers is absolutely true except for that rare story of which you happen to have firsthand knowledge."
20:14:27 <quintopia> elliott: please apply this OISC design to the 2-adic numbers
20:14:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:15:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:15:50 <zzo38> Maybe they used X because of both ten and because of UNIX.
20:15:50 <elliott> quintopia: that's basically what i've done
20:15:57 <oerjan> > (-1) `xor` (-2) :: Integer
20:15:57 <elliott> doesn't 2-adic have ...111111110 = -2?
20:16:31 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraint:
20:16:41 <elliott> oerjan: right, just checking
20:16:57 <elliott> I'm not _sure_ it can do negation
20:17:08 <quintopia> elliott: it looked like you were using 2
20:17:18 <ais523> > 523 `xor` -1 :: Integer
20:17:22 <elliott> quintopia: well, yes, but on infinite bits
20:17:29 <elliott> ais523: XORING IS VERY DIFFICULT
20:17:33 <ais523> > 523 `xor` (-1) :: Integer
20:17:42 <quintopia> well, for one, there is no decimal :P
20:18:16 <elliott> > 523 `xor` (-524) :: Integer
20:18:30 <oerjan> elliott: um the bitwise operations can only do things that depend only on that bit positions in the arguments for which you are trying to calculate the bit position in the result. increment does not fulfil this property, nor does negation.
20:18:37 <elliott> > 523 .&. (-524) :: Integer
20:18:43 <elliott> oerjan: right, but you can do jumps
20:19:41 <elliott> oerjan: and increment is just xor with carry :P
20:21:07 <oerjan> good luck incrementing -1
20:21:14 <ais523> gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult
20:21:16 <elliott> oerjan: GOT A BETTER OISC?
20:21:22 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult
20:21:51 <ais523> elliott: the mathematical models of concurrent algol are simpler than those of non-concurrent algol, as they have fewer restrictions so there's less to say
20:22:05 <elliott> ais523: yes, I was just addquoting because it's funny :)
20:22:25 <HackEgo> 319) <ais523> gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult
20:22:48 <ais523> grr, it's vaguely annoying to be pinged a second time when HackEgo repeats the quote
20:22:59 <ais523> the first time is enough, the second time adds no new info but the number and HackEgo's reaction time
20:26:07 <elliott> I wonder how Erlang's SDL bindings are...
20:26:19 <elliott> <Sgeo> YOU MENTIONED A LANGUAGE, CLEARLY YOU ARE TURNING INTO ME
20:26:28 <olsner> elliott: ... surely not better than SDL itself
20:26:41 <elliott> olsner: I mean as far as threading goes.
20:26:47 <elliott> Erlang uses native threads, but it divides green threads between them.
20:27:01 <elliott> So can the SDL bindings run asynchronously, so that network activity can still take place during expensive calls?
20:27:33 <olsner> I guess the natural thing is to do something like dedicate a new native thread to SDL and an erlang wrapper process
20:27:44 <ais523> elliott: to add to the fun, SDL has its own threading library
20:27:54 <elliott> olsner: That's a strange definition of natural if you ask me.
20:28:07 <elliott> Admittedly SDL calls aren't exactly _expensive_.
20:28:18 <elliott> But still, Minecraft could totally be less responsive if the proxying gets interrupted!
20:28:21 <olsner> erlang, you know, does things with threads and stuff
20:28:45 <elliott> olsner: Yes. Green threads.
20:28:58 <elliott> olsner: SDL does not use Erlang green threads.
20:29:01 <elliott> SDL calls will therefore block.
20:29:06 <elliott> Yes, Erlang can run threads on multiple cores.
20:29:06 <ais523> why would you use Erlang + SDL for Minecraft?
20:29:09 <elliott> But relying on that seems ridiculous.
20:29:24 <elliott> ais523: I'm considering rewriting mcmap in Erlang to learn the language and also to make mcmap hacking a bit... nicer for me.
20:29:40 <elliott> ais523: It uses SDL to... display the map.
20:29:53 <elliott> And receives things from the client and server, and sends things to the client and server (it's a proxy).
20:29:58 <elliott> And uses readline on the console.
20:30:59 <elliott> ais523: Does that answer your question? :p
20:31:53 <ais523> reinventing the wheel for fun
20:32:00 <ais523> I suppose that's what #esoteric is all about
20:32:01 <elliott> 09:00:08 * ais523 finally got UMIX compiled
20:32:01 <elliott> 09:00:31 <ais523> the program at the heart of the 2006 ICFP
20:32:01 <elliott> 09:00:47 <ais523> it needs double-bootstrapping to compile, and you have to write the interpreter yourself
20:32:01 <elliott> The 2006 ICFP contest seems crazy, what with that 2D language inside.
20:32:06 <elliott> That you have to write a ray tracer in.
20:32:18 <elliott> ais523: well, it's more like a port than reinventing the wheel; mcmap is developed by fizzie and me
20:32:25 <ais523> 2006 was the best ICFP contest ever
20:32:38 <ais523> when's the 2010 contest, btw?
20:32:42 <elliott> apparently it tried too hard to be like the 2006 one and failed
20:32:45 <elliott> ais523: err, it's 2011 now
20:32:52 <ais523> when's the 2011 contest?
20:33:03 <ais523> it's possible I'll have a paper submitted to the ICFP
20:33:05 <elliott> "a few months befoer ICFP"
20:33:07 <ais523> it'd be fun if I did well in the contest too
20:33:17 <elliott> ais523: didn't you do the 2008 one?
20:33:26 <elliott> or 2009; the one whose ISO we mirrored
20:33:28 <elliott> ais523: how well did you do?
20:33:41 <ais523> umm, I think it probably was 2008
20:33:53 <ais523> and I think I was eliminated in the fifth elimination round, or something like that
20:34:00 <ais523> I did quite well but wasn't up there with the best entries
20:34:11 <elliott> how well did the tex one do? :p
20:34:35 <ais523> I want to do an INTERCAL-based ICFP entry sometime
20:34:45 <ais523> but it needs to be a vaguely appropriate task
20:35:18 <elliott> ais523: incidentally, I've half-invented a purely functional, lazy concatenative language
20:35:25 <elliott> *purely functional, strongly-typed,
20:35:46 <ais523> who invented the other half?
20:35:53 <ais523> or is it just missing?
20:36:22 <elliott> ais523: I haven't invented it yet
20:37:05 <elliott> ais523: oh, by the way, can you edit the esolang wiki CSS?
20:37:11 <elliott> It'd be nice if you copied the "wikitable" class
20:38:16 <elliott> hmm, I think the CRTL spec is ambiguous
20:38:21 <ais523> what's the licensing on wikitable like?
20:38:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:38:35 <elliott> ais523: err, do the Wikipedia .css pages have licenses?
20:38:38 <elliott> it's in MediaWiki:something
20:38:47 <elliott> Monobook.css or Common.css I think
20:38:52 <elliott> (well, Vector.css, but that's not applicable for us)
20:38:54 <ais523> MediaWiki:monobook.css or mediaWiki:common.css
20:39:24 <elliott> monobook doesn't mention wikitable, but Common.css only has a few rules mentioning them
20:39:36 <elliott> perhaps it's done via javascript...
20:40:01 <ais523> remember that I was involved in maintaining the MediaWiki: namespace on Wikipedia for over a year
20:40:11 <ais523> although I can't remember it all
20:40:16 <elliott> collectively for all users of one wiki in MediaWiki:Common.css (for example, on this and some other projects there is or was the class wikitable, later moved to shared.css)
20:40:20 <elliott> http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/common/shared.css?view=markup
20:40:35 <ais523> ah, it was moved, that would make sense
20:40:38 <elliott> there's also these two from common.css:
20:40:39 <elliott> [[/* Normal font styling for table row headers with scope="row" tag */
20:40:40 <elliott> .wikitable.plainrowheaders th[scope=row] {
20:40:44 <ais523> moved into the core itself is a little surprising, though
20:40:59 <elliott> ais523: hmm, that means it's OK for esolang, right?
20:41:07 <elliott> because the CSS files are licensed under mediawiki's license already
20:41:09 <ais523> MediaWiki itself isn't PD either
20:41:18 <elliott> yes, but Esolang already has pages with its code
20:41:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:41:21 <elliott> in the MediaWiki: namespace
20:41:26 <ais523> nah, those pages don't actually exist
20:41:27 <elliott> so they're arguably not pages
20:41:32 <ais523> if you edit them, they do
20:41:33 <elliott> so it's okay to put it in the .css page
20:41:48 <ais523> it's a case of global default, plus the possibility for a local override
20:45:29 <elliott> is the default file available
20:45:40 <elliott> you could just include that with a css directive
20:46:07 <elliott> and then reasonably argue that the 16 wikitable lines are sufficiently obvious as to be uncopyrightable :P
20:46:27 <ais523> it'd be a mess; it is available sort-of, but the URL depends on things like whether you're logged in, or whatever
20:46:37 <ais523> why don't you just do {| cellspacing=1 cellpadding=1 border=1
20:46:49 <ais523> the old-fashioned pure-HTML way!
20:46:49 <elliott> ais523: border=1 produces an ugly ridge border
20:46:58 <elliott> and having a flat border requires a style="" on every single cell
20:47:01 <elliott> which is hideously impractical
20:47:04 <ais523> oh, I actually rather like that sort of border
20:47:17 <elliott> ais523: I don't like it on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout/Quick_reference
20:47:20 <elliott> it's too much visual noise
20:47:30 <elliott> a flatter border would be beneficial, which wikitable has
20:47:37 <ais523> anyway, no CSS editing for me right now, I fear I'd get sucked into a holy war
20:47:46 <ais523> as people would want it to be consistent across the wiki
20:49:20 <ais523> I also fear it might end up breaking one of the Graue Regulations
20:49:31 <ais523> which are rules that you get into serious trouble for breaking, that nobody knows what they are until someone breaks them
20:49:42 <ais523> (perhaps not even Graue)
20:49:58 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> anyway, no CSS editing for me right now, I fear I'd get sucked into a holy war [...] <ais523> I also fear it might end up breaking one of the Graue Regulations <ais523> which are rules that you get into serious trouble for breaking, that nobody knows what they are until someone breaks them
20:49:59 <HackEgo> 320) <ais523> anyway, no CSS editing for me right now, I fear I'd get sucked into a holy war [...] <ais523> I also fear it might end up breaking one of the Graue Regulations <ais523> which are rules that you get into serious trouble for breaking, that nobody knows what they are until someone breaks them
20:50:08 <Sgeo> If I wrote an esolang interp in Clojure, would anyone use it, or are JVM esolang interps a bad idea?
20:50:12 <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
20:50:44 <ais523> Sgeo: they'd be around as likely to use it as in any other language
20:50:52 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
20:50:52 <HackEgo> 321) <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
20:50:55 <olsner> elliott: why do you keep adding non-funny quotes!?
20:51:07 <elliott> olsner: because if i didn't add quotes we'd never get a funny one!!
20:51:40 -!- elliott has set topic: «Tra átedáwakin» tradáwan. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:51:57 <elliott> ais523: because running JVM stuff is a pain
20:52:03 <elliott> especially since all clojure programs come with an additional jar
20:52:16 <elliott> ais523: ofc, if you meant that the chance is 0, then i agree
20:52:50 <ais523> elliott: oh, I was going on the basis that setting up esolang development environments tend to be nontrivial already
20:53:01 <ais523> (and, ofc, teaching Java for a living, I'm likely to be able to run JVM stuff...)
20:53:15 <elliott> hmm, did you ever figure out what computational calss qq was, apart from being sub-TC?
20:53:24 <elliott> usually it's just a "python" or a "gcc" away
20:54:52 <elliott> ais523: please don't ban me for twenty-four years
20:55:10 <olsner> maybe we should standardize on asylum, so we can just build every esolang directly from svn
20:57:01 <ais523> elliott: note that that doesn't mean I think it's a good language
20:57:09 <ais523> and especially not a good first language
20:57:47 <Sgeo> Once Clojure-in-Clojure is completed, Clojure can be ported to bare metal!
20:57:56 <Sgeo> I hope, I mean
20:58:17 <elliott> print "ok, so here comes the big gun (extracting the dependencies).This process takes about 2 minutes and 30 seconds to complete.....so chill"
20:59:07 <ais523> what's with the time estimates?
20:59:19 <elliott> ais523: idiocy is what's with them!
20:59:25 <Sgeo> I didn't do it
20:59:36 <elliott> have you taken a look at my UL interp, btw?
20:59:46 <elliott> you may find oerjan's church algorithm interesting
21:01:31 <ais523> fizzie: do you have a copy of gearlance or one of its friends lying around, btw? I want to test some defend9.75 changes that egojous can't handle
21:01:57 <ais523> and oerjan's church algorithm is presumably based on matching : and * pairs, but with specialcasing for commands that cancel each other out, and the ability to go down to 0 via !()
21:02:10 <ais523> actually, the ! and () needn't be next to each other
21:02:13 <ais523> so they'd need to be included too
21:02:18 <elliott> is the obvious thing to use
21:02:30 <elliott> <ais523> and oerjan's church algorithm is presumably based on matching : and * pairs, but with specialcasing for commands that cancel each other out, and the ability to go down to 0 via !()
21:02:32 <elliott> it's more complicated than that
21:02:38 <ais523> and thus kind-of hard to use when I'm at home
21:02:39 <elliott> ais523: no it's not, you can wget two files to get egojsout
21:02:42 <ais523> I suppose I could save a local copy
21:02:52 <elliott> ais523: basically church works via partial emulation
21:03:07 <elliott> ais523: it can even handle ((:*)^)
21:04:43 <elliott> (which i thought was impossible until i realised that's basically a quine)
21:05:18 <elliott> I think this also implies that (p) === (p)a
21:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I have this feeling that the 3 lightbulbs problem would be fantastic for making sure you didn't hire people capable of abstraction.
21:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, that's probably a good criterion to hire code monkeys on.
21:09:29 <elliott> My answer would be "Thanks, this interview is now over".
21:10:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I know that upon hearing of the problem, I tried to work it out for more and more and more lightbulbs
21:10:51 <ais523> I spent quite a while wondering about if an infinite number were possible by undoing the switches, and reconnecting the wires behind them
21:10:58 <ais523> but I've forgotten what conclusion I came to
21:12:21 <elliott> argh, i've entered my hating-all-languages rut again
21:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I actually re-read the first time I started querying you on that.
21:13:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, when you were horrible and liked things.
21:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Turns out you actually did make sense, but you phrased your point *really* poorly.
21:13:10 <elliott> What a repulsive person you were!
21:13:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (What logdate? X-D)
21:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, no, but you seemed to be saying "idiots hate Haskell because other idiots wrote crap libraries and package managers for it".
21:14:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Which kind of implies a vast conspiracy of idiots making false flag operations to discredit languages which displease them.
21:14:31 <elliott> Hmm, I don't remember saying that
21:14:48 <elliott> cabal isn't _awful_, just annoying in parts... and most hackage libraries are alright
21:14:58 <elliott> I'd say what's engendered most Haskell hate is dons' rabid promition >:)
21:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's not what you actually were saying, but you constructed the sentence really poorly/
21:15:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you're assuming that all idiots have a common agenda
21:16:02 <elliott> they have a union and everything
21:16:09 <ais523> I /hope/ that's not true, as the implications are complex and somewhat worrying
21:16:12 <elliott> they have bi-annual meetings
21:16:21 <elliott> to discuss (idiotically) how to bring more idiocy into the world
21:16:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but how can you have a meeting of ~3 billion people?
21:16:32 <ais523> are they any good at it?
21:16:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, that's an underestimate!
21:16:50 <elliott> ais523: no, absolutely terrible. unfortunately that's exactly what they're aiming for.
21:17:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the other 3.5 billion are too idiotic to have joined the union.
21:19:35 <elliott> 10:27:05 <ais523> the actual initial condition has no program that generates it
21:19:35 <elliott> 10:27:08 <ais523> the Perl is an approximation
21:19:41 <elliott> did you ever write such a program?
21:20:44 <elliott> hmph, egobot used to have !ul as underload
21:20:47 <elliott> admittedly, it was ais523's daemon
21:22:11 <ais523> it was Keymaker's BF interp
21:22:19 <ais523> all I did was make a couple of small changes to daemonize it
21:22:29 <ais523> elliott: I need more context to answer that
21:22:51 <ais523> oh, the initial condition's infinitely long
21:23:09 <ais523> but I'm trying to write a 1cnis program to generate it atm
21:23:19 <ais523> I'm trying to use 1cnis to formulate a definition of TCness
21:24:30 <ais523> (which is, that a language is TC if any Turing machine can be converted via a provably-halting process to a finite 1cnis program whose output is an initial condition for that language which causes it to halt iff the original Turing machine did)
21:27:51 <ais523> it's designed to be sub-TC, but still capable of relatively interesting output
21:30:02 <quintopia> interesting enough to make your definition reasonable?
21:31:03 <ais523> well, the original definition was just "finite string padded with infinitely many 0s", then people realised that cyclic input was simple and interesting too
21:31:54 <ais523> and the 2,3 machine seems to need a more interesting generalised input than that
21:32:17 <ais523> so the idea's to use 1cnis to generate the input, without being powerful enough to work out whether a turing machine halts or not
21:32:39 <ais523> (note: it's entirely possible for computable programs to work out if a TM halts if they're allowed infinite time to do so, and only have to output in the case where it halts)
21:34:04 -!- augur has joined.
21:36:20 <quintopia> that's a halt-recognizer. no one here would deny their existence.
21:36:43 <ais523> so the idea is to come up with a language you can't write a general TM halt-recogniser in
21:36:49 <ais523> and yet is as powerful as possible despite that
21:37:38 <quintopia> is such a thing most likely less powerful than the most powerful sub-TC language?
21:46:59 <quintopia> do you think it's possible to design a language such that number of features it has are controlled by some parameter N, and as N->infinity, it the fraction of computable problems it is capable of deciding ->1?
21:47:43 <quintopia> so far, all the languages i know that have a parameter gain all the TCness suddenly in the jump from finite to infinite
21:47:56 <elliott> <ais523> (which is, that a language is TC if any Turing machine can be converted via a provably-halting process to a finite 1cnis program whose output is an initial condition for that language which causes it to halt iff the original Turing machine did)
21:48:15 <ais523> elliott: for what reason?
21:48:58 <elliott> ais523: because i don't think repeating progams are acceptable
21:49:38 <elliott> ais523: that makes a language with just enough to execute one sub-TC step, plus a simple conditional halt, TC
21:49:44 <ais523> most people disagree with you on that, I think
21:49:47 <elliott> cycle (step; halt if halt flag)
21:50:02 <ais523> also, it's a little irritating that hibernation on this system correctly saves everything but the icon previews shown on alt-tab
21:50:17 <ais523> my guess is, that they're stored in GPU memory, and hibernation restores CPU memory correctly but screws up on GPU memory somehow
21:50:47 <elliott> I doubt they're exclusively in GPU memory...
21:50:51 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: that makes a language with just enough to execute one sub-TC step, plus a simple conditional halt, TC <--- but it is, if it allows infinite programs, by most common definitions
21:51:12 <elliott> ais523: well, yes, which is why i don't think they should be allowed
21:51:30 <elliott> ais523: a language which had that as its core but wrapped the whole program in an implicit cycle would be OK, since it doesn't have to resort to infinite programs being fed to an interpreter in its definition
21:51:35 <ais523> I think such a language probably /is/ TC, all it's missing is a loop construct
21:51:53 <elliott> it's missing a loop construct
21:51:56 <ais523> unconditional goto would be enough
21:52:06 <ais523> and given that it allows infinite programs, that in itself is a loop construct
21:52:13 <elliott> What I really want is a formal definition of IO-complete.
21:52:36 <ais523> elliott: put it this way: Turing machines themselves are non-TC by your definition, because they'd only be allowed a finitely long tape
21:53:34 <elliott> ais523: err, no, tape isn't part of the program
21:54:10 <ais523> elliott: I'm talking about using 1cnis to generate the equivalent of the tape
21:54:19 <ais523> i.e. an input for a /particular/ Turing machine
21:54:46 <elliott> ais523: I'm really talking from a language point of view
21:55:20 <ais523> well, do you consider "turing machine" a language, or "a particular turing machine" a language? there are cases to be made for both points of view
21:58:31 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:58:41 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:58:41 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
21:58:41 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:59:40 <Slereah> But a universal turing machine is TC :o
21:59:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:00:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:01:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Prince_Charles.
22:01:32 <elliott> ais523: you've read stack overflow a bit, right?
22:01:40 <elliott> wtf is the difference between the programmers stackexchange and stackoverflow
22:01:44 <ais523> a very small bit, mostly I just follow links to it from reddit
22:01:47 <elliott> "migrated from stackoverflow.com 2 days ago
22:01:47 <elliott> This question came from our site for professional and enthusiast programmers." --programmers.stackexchange
22:01:52 <elliott> "This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for expert programmers interested in professional discussions on software development. It's 100% free, no registration required." --programmers.stackexchange
22:01:54 <ais523> and I think stackoverflow's about programming/coding specifically
22:02:02 <elliott> the question is "What kind of things are easy in Haskell and hard in Scala, and vice versa?"
22:02:04 <ais523> as in, "how do I write a while loop in brainfuck"
22:02:06 <elliott> which is about programming/coding
22:02:13 <elliott> <elliott> This question came from our site for professional and enthusiast programmers." --programmers.stackexchange
22:02:13 <elliott> <elliott> "This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for expert programmers interested in professional discussions on software development. It's 100% free, no registration required." --programmers.stackexchange
22:02:17 <ais523> whereas stackexchange is about things that aren't quite so specific
22:02:18 <elliott> those descriptions are almost identical
22:02:28 <elliott> stackexchange is just their money cow
22:02:35 <elliott> err, is money cow a word? :D
22:02:36 <ais523> also, stackexchange is more enterprisey, and apparently has a more insane community
22:02:44 <elliott> ais523: stackexchange is a host
22:02:49 <elliott> stop referring to an individual site as that
22:02:53 <elliott> it's like saying "geocities is badly designed"
22:03:13 <ais523> ah, didn't realise there was more than one stackexchange site
22:03:35 <elliott> ais523: for instance the Mathematics one
22:03:43 <elliott> (different from MathOverflow, which is also a stack exchange site, but with its own domain)
22:03:56 <elliott> (it seems every stack*/*overflow site must have two copies!)
22:04:17 <elliott> technically Mathematics stackexchange is for idiots and MathOverflow is for mathematicians
22:04:35 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:05:19 -!- quintopia has joined.
22:05:19 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
22:05:19 -!- quintopia has joined.
22:05:22 <Prince_Charles> http://komplexify.com/blog/2011/02/23/indefinite-is-right/
22:05:50 <elliott> "I’ve gone on about renaming the imaginary number or being precise with trig, and I’m a believer that was the wrong choice."
22:05:54 <elliott> Person with no actual mathematical skill detected.
22:06:08 <elliott> Prince_Charles: THE THING YOU JUST LINKED
22:06:19 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:06:24 <Prince_Charles> I SKIPPED THE FIRST BIT AND LOOKED AT THE FIRST MATHSY BIT
22:07:09 <elliott> oklopol promise not to ever leave again please
22:07:24 <oklopol> well i promised to myself i wouldn't join before my master's thesis is finished, but here i am
22:07:34 <elliott> that is a terrible promise, i hereby revoke it
22:07:46 <oklopol> well it's been revokened already
22:07:55 <ais523> how can you revoke someone else's promise?
22:08:05 <ais523> elliott: note that I haven't been here for a while for similar reasons
22:08:18 <ais523> although my master's thesis was finished, submitted and marked ages ago
22:08:18 <elliott> ais523: I thought you were avoiding someone
22:08:22 <oklopol> yeah but you're doing a real thesis
22:08:26 <elliott> who can... tell when you're on IRC, or something
22:08:27 <oklopol> i'm doing a silly kids' thesis
22:08:38 <ais523> yep, in order to give myself enough time to finish the work for them that I hadn't done
22:08:46 <elliott> i have a copy of oklopol's masters thesis right here
22:08:58 <elliott> what would be suitably insulting
22:09:13 <elliott> WHY THE HALTING PROBLEM MEANS YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANY PROGRAM, YOU JUST CAN'T KNOW, OR,
22:09:33 <elliott> Päöööööketealala on defining divison by zero in the reals
22:09:44 <elliott> oklopol: one word of the title is!
22:09:55 <oklopol> in yours, yes, in mine, no
22:10:07 <elliott> because oklopol can't speak finnish
22:10:10 <ais523> so that English researchers can read it?
22:10:10 <elliott> he actually lives in new jersey
22:10:19 <elliott> but finnish is agglutinative
22:10:33 <elliott> why would you ever pass up the chance to just pile a bunch of words on top of each other to get a new word
22:11:03 <oklopol> the fact english researchers can read it doesn't matter because no one is going to read it except my supervisor
22:11:21 <oklopol> and another guy who checks it, who actually isn't very good at english because he's over 100 years old
22:11:32 <Prince_Charles> elliott, AS A MEMBER OF THE ROYAL FAMILY MIGHT I REMIND YOU THAT ENGLISH IS OBVIOUSLY THE SUPERIOR LANGUAGE
22:11:34 <elliott> oklopol: i'd totally read it and pretend to understand, but i bet you won't even upload it
22:11:44 <oklopol> you have to do the bachelor's in finnish, but - thank god - you can do your master's in english
22:11:52 <elliott> Prince_Charles: can't you get executed for impersonating the royal family
22:12:03 <ais523> oklopol: I'm just glad they don't make me do my PhD thesis in Finnish
22:12:06 <elliott> oklopol: i thought you were learning japspeak anyway, and that's agglunuangungoisnaoign pile-on-toppy
22:12:10 <ais523> because I don't know Finnish, and it would be kind-of difficult
22:12:10 <oklopol> elliott: it will probably be published
22:12:19 <Prince_Charles> elliott, true, but I am a member of the royal family so it doesn't apply.
22:12:40 <elliott> ais523: just learn the words for basic logical things
22:12:49 <elliott> ais523: and use agglutinativity to construct the rest of what you have to say
22:13:00 <elliott> admittedly, every word will take up about five pages
22:13:00 <Prince_Charles> http://komplexify.com/blog/2009/02/19/in-defense-of-j/
22:13:18 <Prince_Charles> tl;dr: "i is bad because it weeds the idiots out of mathematics."
22:14:12 <elliott> what was i gonna say. uhh.
22:14:35 <elliott> let's talk about how bad google translate's interface is.
22:14:42 <ais523> TDWTF forums are discussing the fact that apparently, you aren't supposed to use MSDN versions of Windows for anything but development
22:15:13 <Prince_Charles> elliott, but we have already pointed out that text interfaces are USER UNFRIENDLY and COMPLETELY INFERIOR TO SYSTEMS SUCH AS 3DNA, eh, Sgeo?
22:15:22 <elliott> Prince_Charles: it seems that the only mathematical stuff this guy writes about is stupid notational complaints
22:15:38 <Prince_Charles> If I were my father I would make an antisemitic remark here.
22:15:41 <elliott> i should be j! "sin(x)^2 should obviously mean sin(x) squared, and sin^2(x) is like satan itself!"
22:15:46 <elliott> "blah blah blah integrals confuse me!"
22:16:00 <Sgeo> Prince_Charles, when did I suggest that the me now agrees with the past me?
22:16:09 <oklopol> i wonder if there's people who believe in the reals but not the complex numbers
22:16:15 <zzo38> I think it is OK to use "i" for imaginary numbers. I think it can be formatted as $\rm i$ when you mean the imaginary numbers mathematical constant rather than the variable "i" as $i$
22:16:19 <Sgeo> oklopol, Recordis
22:16:31 <ais523> elliott: an iterated sin/cos is useful in describing the motion of a child on a swing
22:16:32 <elliott> oklopol: they're imaginary!
22:16:54 <elliott> do they swing differently?
22:16:54 <ais523> their horizontal displacement from the midpoint is sin sin t, if you choose appropriate values
22:16:56 <Sgeo> Recordis hates imaginary numbers.
22:16:59 <elliott> "I’m am a professional mathematician with an interest in the liberal arts."
22:17:01 <ais523> adults tend to swing more violently, and possibly break the swing
22:17:03 <elliott> he'm am a professional mathematician
22:17:05 <ais523> also, there's more air resistance
22:17:09 <oklopol> zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that.
22:17:15 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that.
22:17:33 <HackEgo> 322) <oklopol> zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that.
22:17:44 <elliott> i don't even want to know who Recordis is.
22:17:47 <pikhq> If we really want to go around changing math notation, let's start with the *really* egregious stuff.
22:17:55 <pikhq> Like 1-indexing of matrices.
22:17:55 <elliott> that's a lie, i do want to know
22:18:00 <elliott> so i can laugh at Sgeo for associating with him
22:18:04 <Prince_Charles> elliott, some idiot who Sgeo is incapable of seeing as such.
22:18:10 <Sgeo> A fictitious character.
22:18:32 <oklopol> pikhq: i'm actually doing stuff where i need to do stuff on the whole Z^2 plane, but actually usually just use a submatrix of it
22:18:53 <oklopol> so i have to either use nonstandard indexing of matrices or
22:19:09 <oklopol> nonstandard indexing of the plane
22:19:27 <pikhq> oklopol: I'm just a poor CS student in a linear algebra class. 1-indexing must die.
22:19:42 <oklopol> i wanted to strangle mathematics when i realized this
22:19:44 <zzo38> I did read the article. Also, they are wrong when they said "Mathematicians tried to fix this somewhat by changing the name of imaginary numbers to complex numbers". Imaginary numbers are like square root of negative numbers. Complex numbers are numbers with real and imaginary components.
22:19:56 <oklopol> well i was mostly hating on the fact the axes are in a different order
22:19:57 <zzo38> (One or both of which may be zero)
22:20:00 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlgebraTheEasyWay <3
22:20:09 <pikhq> As should (as I have said) any emphasis manual computation of algorithms.
22:20:30 <oklopol> 1-indexing is annoying as well, usually
22:20:58 <elliott> 1-indexing is silly, it's for people who think N is the wrong N
22:21:23 <Prince_Charles> elliott, like the maths teacher who kicked me out of class for that?
22:21:28 <pikhq> I mean, manual computation of algorithms has absolutely no use. At all.
22:21:38 <pikhq> *Implementing* an algorithm, sure.
22:21:41 <oklopol> which N is correct, elliott?
22:21:58 <elliott> oklopol: the one starting with 4
22:22:08 <Sgeo> pikhq, it's so you can know the suffering of those pre-any electronic device or slide rule people
22:22:14 <elliott> wouldn't it be cool if 4 was the smallest number.
22:22:43 <Prince_Charles> That was back when you didn't even have sensible notation.
22:22:51 <elliott> "What are these books doing on this site, then? Well, as the above quote suggests, the textbooks are written in the format of adventure novels, where the main characters essentially have to derive algebra (respectively trigonometry, calculus) from first principles in order to prevent the Big Bad from taking over the kingdom."
22:22:56 <Prince_Charles> I sometimes think of how things must have been then and shiver.
22:23:15 <oklopol> elliott: i use the other N more often
22:23:18 <oklopol> that's mostly because for some reason indexing usually starts at 0
22:23:19 <Sgeo> elliott, what?
22:23:32 <elliott> oklopol: err the correct N is the one that includes 0
22:23:35 <Sgeo> Prince_Charles, Wiki is unhelpful here
22:23:39 <elliott> isn't that me agreeing with you
22:23:56 <Prince_Charles> The guy who invented logarithms in the stupidest way possible?
22:23:58 <elliott> oklopol: right well that's just because everyone is stupid
22:24:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: I suppose we should also make students know the suffering of those pre-pencil, and have to deal with a quill and an ink well?
22:25:07 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: Not compared to a quill.
22:25:32 <Prince_Charles> [[Then in Chapter 8 of Calculus the Easy Way, the heroes have three hours to derive the Fundamental Theorem of Integral Calculus; if they fail, the entire country will be destroyed in a fire or flood.]]
22:25:34 <elliott> Prince_Charles: :pretentious fart:
22:25:34 <zzo38> I guess Knuth prefers writing a matrix with parentheses instead of square brackets? I prefer using square brackets for a matrix, and fortunately it is very easy to do in TeX: \def\bmatrix#1{\left[\matrix{#1}\right]}
22:25:38 <oklopol> but fountain pen cannot be destroyd
22:25:40 <zzo38> What way do you prefer?
22:25:49 <Prince_Charles> Sgeo, you have 10 seconds to tell me how that is not horrifically contrived.
22:25:55 <pikhq> Oh, and students should also have to deal with books of tables of basic functions, like log and exp.
22:26:27 <zzo38> Which way do you prefer to display a matrix?
22:26:41 <pikhq> Because it makes sense to have to learn to deal with decades-old concerns.
22:26:45 <pikhq> elliott: Ballpoint pens do suck.
22:26:52 <Prince_Charles> They require way too much pressure to use comfortably.
22:26:56 <Sgeo> Prince_Charles, well, the problem as presented to the characters is about finding the volume of a bunch of pools that the Gremlin placed magical flames in
22:27:00 <pikhq> They're cheap, and that's about the only thing that can be said for them.
22:27:05 <Sgeo> They need exactly the right amount of water, no more no less
22:27:08 <elliott> pikhq: stfu busy mocking prince charles
22:27:12 <Sgeo> It is contrieved, of course
22:27:51 <zzo38> oklopol: So you agree with Knuth on that, then. Nothing wrong with that; it is just different convention being used. (You can use \pmatrix in TeX to typeset such a matrix (except on Wikipedia).)
22:27:53 <Prince_Charles> If you're so incapable of abstract thought to need everything given a stupid "practical" scenario, I have no time for you.
22:28:31 <Sgeo> Prince_Charles, it's entertaining, and it helped me understand to some degree when I was a kid
22:28:55 * pikhq votes we just force kids to deal with abstract thought from a young age.
22:29:05 <pikhq> Step one: Ixnay on the algorithms.
22:29:26 <oklopol> zzo38: i use \begin{array} \end{it} in my latex.
22:29:48 <Sgeo> Although I still hate Trigonometry
22:30:09 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. There is no sense in spending 6 years on them.
22:30:57 <Prince_Charles> Also, you need to redefine them about 3 times for different sets.
22:30:59 <elliott> But what about those of us terrible at arithmetic. :p
22:31:19 <oklopol> maybe we could kill everyone who's stupid?
22:31:33 <pikhq> Six. Fucking. Years. to get a high level of competency at a skill that is about as useful as the ability to succesfully operate a slide rule.
22:31:37 <elliott> that's in response to my line /and/ oklopol's
22:31:40 <oklopol> Prince_Charles: you mean extend for larger sets of numbers?
22:32:09 <pikhq> Sure, perhaps *teach* them, but you really, really, really don't need to spend *years* drilling on them to get students to be able to perform them quickly.
22:32:20 <ais523> does anyone actually use Q? or is it just there for completeness?
22:32:25 <zzo38> I have a slide rule!
22:32:38 <ais523> I made one once, but it wasn't very accurate
22:32:40 <oklopol> erm Q is used all the time
22:33:36 <oklopol> ais523: you haven't seen Q used in math? :P
22:33:49 <Sgeo> When I was a kid, I read a book on doing arithmatic a bit differently
22:33:50 <ais523> oklopol: I think I study the wrong sort of math
22:33:51 <pikhq> elliott: I prefer the computable reals, myself.
22:33:56 <Prince_Charles> Indeed, it's basically all that's covered until idiots start getting trimmed out.
22:34:20 <oklopol> ais523: what sort of maths do you study?
22:34:23 <ais523> Prince_Charles: remember I was an electronic engineer for years
22:34:40 <ais523> oklopol: mostly linear and affine type systems, at the moment
22:34:49 <zzo38> Obviously there are some things wrong with the mathematical typesetting in Wikipedia, some things are incompatible between TeX and Wikipedia. If I write a change file for TeX and a program to convert a Pascal code to PHP, and then add some things to output .png and so on, can they use it?
22:34:51 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: It's a bit like spending 6 freaking years on the ability to write the glyphs of your spoken language well.
22:34:53 <ais523> Prince_Charles: that's a strange reaction
22:34:55 <oklopol> well of course you won't see Q when doing continuous engineer stuff
22:35:00 <pikhq> It is a *fucking waste of time*.
22:35:05 <ais523> zzo38: I suspect they can, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will
22:35:22 <ais523> also, remember that TeX is Turing-complete
22:35:26 <ais523> it'd be bad for a wiki engine to be TC
22:35:27 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: Yes, we spend years on handwriting too.
22:35:32 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: It is still a fucking waste of time.
22:36:16 <Prince_Charles> pikhq, I feel that we are somehow arguing over something we agree on.
22:36:31 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I do know. And I would like wiki engine to be TC, however. It helps with many things. Even Hackiki is a TC engine (actually it has limited memory; but I mean ignoring that). And it can have time limit for PHP running.
22:36:32 <pikhq> You could literally remove the first 6 years of public schooling and have lost nothing.
22:37:24 <augur> http://www.hookahcompany.com/hobo_nargile_4363_prd1.htm should i get?
22:37:27 <Prince_Charles> There are some useful bits in there, but they're mainly completed early on.
22:37:32 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: Okay, not quite literally. Unless the parents are not idiots.
22:37:35 <oklopol> you could replace it by beating the kids with a hammer for a few years to make the transition more smooth
22:37:55 <ais523> because I'm throwing out a truth value at pseudorandom without following the link
22:38:03 <pikhq> If the parents *are* idiots, then you have lost time away from the TV, which at least has some value.
22:38:21 <ais523> and besides, "no" is my default answer to any question that involves "should I buy X"
22:38:22 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:38:22 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:38:42 * Prince_Charles cannot remember any significant intellectual development he made in primary school.
22:39:06 * pikhq learned to program whilst going through primary school
22:39:13 <Prince_Charles> I mean, there was the odd bit of useful science, but nothing much more.
22:39:15 <ais523> ooh, I think I received my first spam ever on my nomic email account
22:39:15 <oklopol> Prince_Charles: i can't remember any development in high school either
22:39:18 <ais523> normally they come on the main one
22:39:31 <pikhq> And read books that many high school graduates couldn't...
22:39:37 <oklopol> it was like 3 years of coma
22:39:39 <pikhq> But that's not because of primary school at all.
22:39:47 <augur> you're all quite lame
22:39:58 <ais523> it's a 419 again, although this time the person doing it, apparently the daughter of the late "king of Bobo Land In BURKINA_FASO", is romantically interested in me
22:40:03 <augur> in primary school i was reading the science desk reference cover to cover
22:40:08 <augur> and trying to grok relativity
22:40:23 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: 3 years of high school is the norm in many countries, and was the norm in the US until vaguely recently.
22:40:31 <oklopol> Prince_Charles: yeah, that's the normal amount here
22:40:37 <elliott> <ais523> it's a 419 again, although this time the person doing it, apparently the daughter of the late "king of Bobo Land In BURKINA_FASO", is romantically interested in me
22:40:58 <ais523> also, reply-to doesn't match send address, /and/ there isn't an address to send to listed in the body of the email itself
22:41:06 <ais523> which implies to me that the scammer is at least vaguely technically literate
22:41:13 <oklopol> we first do 6 years of bullshit, then 3 more years of supposedly more advanced bullshit, then 3 years of high school, which is bullshit
22:41:38 <ais523> it even has undisclosed recipients
22:41:57 <pikhq> 6 years of bullshit, 3 years of bullshit, then 4 years of bullshit here.
22:41:59 <ais523> so I'm impressed, although I'm not actually planning to reply
22:42:04 <oklopol> Prince_Charles: we stard high school at 15 or 16 or something i think?
22:42:19 <oklopol> you calculate, i'm on my 3rd year of uni and i was born in 89
22:43:10 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: We start high school around 14, graduate around 18.
22:43:13 <oklopol> when you get the answer, tell me too, would be interesting to know
22:44:08 <oklopol> so... you start school at 5?
22:44:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:44:55 <oklopol> my brain has no slots for bullshit-related information :(
22:45:01 <Prince_Charles> oklopol, well, I started at 4, and those ages are based on my age at the end of each year.
22:45:27 <zzo38> They do have a program texvc written in OCaml. I could just write a shorter one in PHP and then write a TeX format file to disable a few commands and omit page numbers and so on. And then render all formulas in one TeX document and each page of output is then made into a .png file.
22:46:07 <zzo38> And have \write limited to writing to only one file, which its contents are then processed as MediaWiki codes by MediaWiki.
22:46:17 <oklopol> at 4? :D here's a list of what we do at age 4:
22:46:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:46:44 <oklopol> and here comes the exhaustive list for ages 5-6:
22:46:50 <zzo38> And then add some sort of timeout mechanism.
22:47:16 <pikhq> Middle school, also part of secondary education in the US, starts around 11 and goes to age 14...
22:47:19 <Prince_Charles> Beginnings of reading and writing is all that I can remember.
22:47:46 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and we have an optional "preschool" thing...
22:47:51 <oklopol> P1 being first year of primary?
22:48:23 <oklopol> we start learning to write at 7
22:48:23 <pikhq> So, yeah, we spend a *fuckton* of time on primary and secondary education for, well, shitty results.
22:48:56 <oklopol> we have preschool at age 6, but that's just playing
22:50:10 <zzo38> However, in Hackiki, it is probably possible to make proper TeX math. Does Hackiki have TeX? If not, does it have a GNU Pascal compiler (so that tex-gpc can be installed)?
22:50:24 <pikhq> There's not a heck of a lot of value in kindergarten (first year of primary education), but it is mandatory in many states.
22:51:15 <pikhq> It's pretty saddening that I could probably do education better than our school systems. Personally.
22:51:20 <zzo38> I have in fact, written a program that convert .dvi to .pbm format.
22:51:30 <oklopol> so what you went to school at age 4 because you were a particularly smart 4yo? :P
22:51:56 <Prince_Charles> I think I might have been able to read by then, but I can't actually remember.
22:51:58 <pikhq> Though, courtesy of the religious wackos around here, I would actually be able to do so should I ever have a child.
22:52:53 <Prince_Charles> (I'm right next to the lower age boundary, though, so it was really a matter of rounding up rather than down.)
22:52:55 <pikhq> (certain religious nutjobs are worried about our schools not being sufficiently crazy, so have fought for the right to do homeschooling. Little-to-no regulations with it.)
22:53:38 <oklopol> i only tried writing at 5, i wrote "fuck, shit, satan" on a piece of paper, and showed it to my father, proud as hell
22:54:40 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: Regulations vary from state to state.
22:54:55 <pikhq> And the whargarble is strong in many states in the US.
22:55:08 <Prince_Charles> Since that inevitably just results in crazies ruining their children's chances of sanity
22:55:08 <elliott> regulate parenting, not homeschooling :P
22:55:44 <Prince_Charles> OTOH, these people tend to be the lesser kind of idiot.
22:56:16 <oklopol> well, people suck at living
22:56:48 <Prince_Charles> Like, the kind who aren't actively *stupid*, but are just incapable of making rational decisionss.
22:57:05 <elliott> the problem is that you can't really stop crazies without rapidly approaching china :)
22:57:27 <oklopol> you don't have to stop them from breeding, you just have to kill their children
22:57:30 <elliott> I have no real moral issue with regulating reproduction and parenting _except_ that it requires too powerful a government
22:57:36 <oklopol> much less painful to everyone
22:57:41 <oklopol> they still get to have sex
22:57:44 <elliott> (providing services doesn't make a government more powerful)
22:57:56 <oklopol> but none of those condoms and buying kids food and shit
22:58:06 <elliott> let's just have abortions for everyone!!
22:58:12 <Prince_Charles> elliott, clearly the solution is to enact mandatory, genetically fixed sterilisation.
22:58:13 <elliott> then you don't even have to go through childbirth amirite
22:58:18 <coppro> regulating children is inhumane regardless of the step you do it at
22:58:19 <elliott> Prince_Charles: <elliott> I have no real moral issue with regulating reproduction and parenting _except_ that it requires too powerful a government
22:58:24 <coppro> if it weren't inhumane, I wouldn't have an issue with it
22:58:42 <coppro> requiring parents to undergo a course when pregnant would be fine
22:59:03 <pikhq> Huh. Apparently only a minority of those homeschooling in the US do so for any religious reasons at all.
22:59:05 <coppro> but moving children/preventing them from being born is not good
22:59:21 <coppro> pikhq: A lot do it because they (correctly) believe they can teach better than their children
22:59:28 <elliott> I was officially down as being homeschooled for N years.
22:59:36 <coppro> better than the teachers
22:59:43 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, some 48%.
22:59:57 <elliott> Prince_Charles: Wikipedia :-P
23:00:00 <coppro> or because they don't want their children exposed to school social environment
23:00:09 <pikhq> coppro: Which is entirely valid, IMO.
23:00:10 <coppro> (also a good idea as long as they make sure their kid gets some social exposure)
23:00:22 <coppro> the modern school social environment usually sucks
23:00:31 <coppro> I am led to believe it's worse in the US
23:00:38 <elliott> Prince_Charles: Well, it's not ideal. WP + google is better than standardised schooling though.
23:00:47 <pikhq> It's permanently scarring in the US.
23:00:49 <Prince_Charles> Since it's just a heap of definitions that frequently take a lot of cross-referencing to figure out.
23:00:50 <elliott> (At the pre-university level.)
23:00:57 <elliott> Prince_Charles: Yes, but I call that "fun".
23:01:18 <Prince_Charles> I could probably go to university at the end of this year, but the thought of going at 16 scares me too much.
23:01:29 <oklopol> Prince_Charles: why does it scare you?
23:01:44 <coppro> pikhq: Here it was bad until I found a good peer group. Then the rest of the environment didn't matter because I had my peer group
23:01:44 <oklopol> no one cares how old you are at the uni
23:01:51 <pikhq> coppro: We have a fairly high proportion of mental disorders such as depression in high schoolers these days.
23:02:00 <elliott> oklopol: it would be awkward
23:02:07 <elliott> and things being awkward aren't related to whether anyone else cares or not
23:02:14 <pikhq> elliott: Not for long.
23:02:18 <elliott> oklopol: um deviating against any kind of social norm is usually pretty awkward
23:02:24 <elliott> at least for a short while
23:02:47 <oklopol> people come to uni at all kinds of ages
23:02:55 <coppro> pikhq: fair, but any clue why?
23:03:08 <coppro> is it the attitude at school in particular or social attitudes generally?
23:03:19 <oklopol> i was in uni courses when i was 16 and it was not at all awkward
23:03:30 <elliott> yah but you're insanely extroverted.
23:03:40 <elliott> we're all hopelessly shy nerds with social anxiety.
23:03:43 <oklopol> people keep telling me that
23:03:54 <pikhq> coppro: Y'know "Lord of the Flies"?
23:04:01 <elliott> stereotypes, gotta catch 'em all
23:04:06 <Prince_Charles> elliott, well, IRL I am actually fairly extroverted depending on circumstances.
23:04:28 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
23:04:29 <elliott> I'm ridiculously shy and have terrible social anxiety but with friends I'm irritatingly chatty.
23:04:30 <coppro> pikhq: admittedly, my school had a gifted program
23:05:17 <pikhq> coppro: Seriously, the administration at most schools fundamentally doesn't care about what's going on. If something comes to their attention, all involved get suspension or expulsion.
23:05:27 <coppro> pikhq: really? yuck :(
23:05:41 <elliott> pikhq: You forgot "or ignored".
23:05:44 <coppro> my administration experience was pretty good
23:05:45 <quintopia> the n-volume of a standard n-simplex is 1/n! right?
23:05:48 <pikhq> elliott: Or ignored, yes.
23:05:49 <coppro> they obviously couldn't monitor everything
23:06:00 <oklopol> quintopia: what's a standard n-simplex?
23:06:01 <pikhq> elliott: Depending on how their week had been going, really.
23:06:10 <oklopol> the one where you have a point 1 along each axis?
23:06:12 -!- Ilari has joined.
23:06:21 <Prince_Charles> My experience with administration has been pretty negative, but then again I've never really had a problem with people making my life hell.
23:06:34 <coppro> but I felt I was being bullied a bit more than constituted just fun one time, and I went in, and the assistant principal dragged everyone I named in and gave them a talking-to (using the convenient excuse that the substitute teacher that day had been concerned)
23:06:44 <coppro> they didn't get suspended, but they definitely got a message
23:06:47 <elliott> I was, uh, not very popular in middle school.
23:06:52 <coppro> (and I'll be fair; I didn't really want them suspended)
23:07:30 <pikhq> coppro: Here, you'd be ignored up until you got injured.
23:07:35 <pikhq> coppro: And then you'd be punished!
23:07:40 <pikhq> Hooray, zero-tolerance!
23:07:53 <oklopol> quintopia: i think it is, don't know tho
23:10:22 <oklopol> well who likes a little fag who gets beaten up all the time right
23:11:16 <Prince_Charles> No, I am genuinely curious as to what kind of twisted mind comes up with such an idiotic policy.
23:11:19 <oklopol> quintopia: i have no idea how to calculate that, even, in a simple way
23:12:09 <quintopia> oklopol: well, i'm pretty sure the first three are 1,1/2,1/6, so i just assumed it would continue :P
23:12:10 <oklopol> except maybe solving the integral actually is pretty simple
23:12:38 <oklopol> you have nested integrals from 0 to 1, and you're integrating constant 1
23:13:16 <elliott> <oklopol> well who likes a little fag who gets beaten up all the time right
23:13:26 <elliott> i have no idea what that smiley is even.
23:14:28 <oklopol> quintopia: sorry, you may have noticed i was a bit hasty there, it's not that simple :P
23:14:37 <elliott> 15:06:34 <coppro> but I felt I was being bullied a bit more than constituted just fun one time, and I went in, and the assistant principal dragged everyone I named in and gave them a talking-to (using the convenient excuse that the substitute teacher that day had been concerned)
23:14:37 <elliott> 15:06:44 <coppro> they didn't get suspended, but they definitely got a message
23:14:52 <elliott> what happened with me (obviously i was a lot younger) was, uh
23:15:03 <elliott> yeah i think they got verbally half-slapped on the wrist.
23:15:15 <elliott> although i don't know of any actual evidence that even that happened
23:15:39 <elliott> (that incident was actually physical.)
23:15:47 <elliott> tl;dr i have no idea what this tl;dr is
23:16:01 <elliott> time to get bullied by skeletons HUR HUR
23:16:03 <oklopol> i don't think we had that much bullying in our school, the physical kind that is
23:16:08 <quintopia> oklopol: it looks like it works out though
23:16:26 <oklopol> quintopia: it does. but does it actually work out?
23:16:59 <oklopol> first integral is from 0 to 1, but the second is from 0 to 1-x for x the first integral's variable, and after that who knows!
23:17:24 <quintopia> another way to approach it would be to decide whether the 1/n*A_0*h formula for volume of pyramids holds for all n
23:18:23 <oklopol> erm actually the simplex consists of the nonnegative points such that the sum of coordinates is less than or equal to 1 right
23:18:31 <oklopol> so it's trivial to do the integral
23:19:06 <oklopol> take one axis, let x go 0 to 1
23:19:28 <oklopol> then, on the second axis, you have used up x... stuff, so now you have from 0 to 1-y to use
23:19:57 <oklopol> (we'll take it as a given that any natural way to make a for-loop over the uncountable set of points gives us the right answer)
23:20:17 <oklopol> on the z axis you have 0 to 1-x-y left
23:20:32 <oklopol> and in "stuff, so now you have from 0 to 1-y to use", you have 0 to 1-x to use ofc, sorry
23:20:34 <pikhq> Prince_Charles: Because zero tolerance for fights at all.
23:21:14 <elliott> Prince_Charles: You shouldn't have worn such provocative clothing if you didn't want to be raped!
23:21:37 <oklopol> yeah if someone starts violently hitting his head against your fist, why should YOU get punished?
23:21:57 <oklopol> it occurs to me that all you nerds have been beaten up all your life and this is a really sensitive topic.
23:22:26 <Prince_Charles> Actually, I've only been beaten up to any appreciable degree twice.
23:23:25 <oklopol> i would probably just count one beating a proper one
23:23:43 <elliott> i think i've only actually been physically beaten up once.
23:23:44 <oklopol> that time when i didn't pay the pizza delivery guys more money because they came two hours late
23:23:51 <Prince_Charles> And both of those were just being punched in the face.
23:24:09 <oklopol> oh i've been punched in the face a lot of times
23:24:49 <oklopol> quintopia: i'm not interested, to be honest
23:24:50 <elliott> Prince_Charles: Wimp, mine was being picked up roughly, dragged on the ground and carried indoors where I was shoved into a cupboard which was slammed shut.
23:24:59 <elliott> (Okay, so being punched in the face was probably more _painful_.)
23:25:08 <elliott> oklopol: btw i don't consider this a sensitive topic :P
23:25:12 <Prince_Charles> elliott, yeah, but that's because you're an ENGLISH PANSY
23:25:29 <oklopol> haha yeah elliott is a fag
23:25:30 <elliott> somehow i actually managed to forget it happened until nighttime xD
23:25:36 <elliott> oklopol: MY HOMOSEXUALITY ON THE OTHER HAND
23:26:23 <oklopol> elliott: you mean you were in the cupboard all day, thinking about your latest OS project, and 8 hours later OH MY GOD THEY LOCKED ME IN A CUPBOARD!
23:26:49 <elliott> i don't think the cupboard actually locked
23:26:52 <elliott> it was pretty small though
23:27:35 <quintopia> elliott is so gay, he has consensual sex with other men and enjoys it.
23:27:45 <elliott> just because i'm gay doesn't mean i'm a fag.
23:27:51 <elliott> JUST BECAUSE I'M GAY DOESN'T MEAN I'M HOMOSEXUAL
23:27:58 <elliott> just because i'm homosexual
23:28:00 <elliott> doesn't mean i have sex with men.
23:28:06 <quintopia> i'm not gonna touch that subject...that's a faggot-over-a-load for sure :P
23:28:42 <oklopol> if i get it, it's not very funny, so please explain
23:29:07 <oklopol> hmm, it occurs to me that i have beer next to me
23:29:14 <oklopol> maybe i could get drunk now that i'm here
23:29:40 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:30:09 <oklopol> well not the kind of like that leaves the channel i meant what i said.
23:30:23 <quintopia> you couldn't fit that much beer in your intestines
23:30:35 <elliott> <oklopol> if i get it, it's not very funny, so please explain
23:30:39 <elliott> see if i'm a gay paedophile
23:31:08 <elliott> (just making sure google finds this when future employers googlestalk me)
23:31:24 -!- Behold has joined.
23:32:31 <Prince_Charles> <IN TEN YEARS' TIME> <elliott> DAMMIT I'M ON THE SEX OFFENDERS REGISTER
23:33:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:33:37 <oklopol> i'll probably have to disconnect soon and never return
23:33:48 <quintopia> elliott: also best we put it in the qdb
23:34:01 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
23:34:08 <Prince_Charles> oklopol, yes, because blanket life sentences are a great idea.
23:34:33 <quintopia> `addquote <elliott> just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile
23:34:43 <elliott> wow that is the most faily way to quote it ever
23:34:50 <HackEgo> 323) <elliott> just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile
23:35:05 <quintopia> but the lamer thing would be to say <elliott> three times
23:35:07 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> just because i'm homosexual <elliott> doesn't mean i have sex with men. <elliott> ...i'm also a paedophile [...] <elliott> see if i'm a gay paedophile <elliott> i don't have sex with men <elliott> i have sex with BOYS
23:35:10 <HackEgo> 324) <elliott> just because i'm homosexual <elliott> doesn't mean i have sex with men. <elliott> ...i'm also a paedophile [...] <elliott> see if i'm a gay paedophile <elliott> i don't have sex with men <elliott> i have sex with BOYS
23:35:20 <HackEgo> 323) <elliott> just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile
23:35:33 <quintopia> also all that extra stuff you added is irrelevant
23:36:32 <oklopol> no the extra stuff makes it good, because the actual joke was really stupid
23:36:53 <quintopia> no, we don't want it to look like a joke
23:37:02 <quintopia> we want the qdb to reflect that he is a gay paedophile
23:39:23 <oklopol> actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia
23:40:07 <elliott> i love how that makes no sense
23:40:31 <quintopia> and is far funnier than the actual joke
23:41:10 <quintopia> `addquote <oklopol> actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia
23:41:12 <HackEgo> 331) <oklopol> actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia
23:41:26 <oklopol> masturbation being gay is a very old joke, probably from the bible
23:41:53 <quintopia> yes, but the idea that he is so small he's childlike is a nice new spin
23:42:11 <HackEgo> 323) <<<<<<< /tmp/hackenv.22235/quotes
23:42:38 <elliott> quintopia: well i am pretty damn tiny yes
23:42:44 <elliott> quintopia: the hg merge failed
23:42:47 <elliott> so the quotes file now has merging shit in it
23:42:49 <HackEgo> 324) <<<<<<< /tmp/hackenv.22235/quotes
23:42:54 <HackEgo> 326) <elliott> just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile
23:42:56 <HackEgo> 328) >>>>>>> /tmp/quotes~other.jicWNf
23:43:12 <HackEgo> 330) >>>>>>> /tmp/quotes~other.XV8QqK
23:43:24 <HackEgo> 329) <elliott> just because i'm homosexual <elliott> doesn't mean i have sex with men. <elliott> ...i'm also a paedophile [...] <elliott> see if i'm a gay paedophile <elliott> i don't have sex with men <elliott> i have sex with BOYS
23:43:55 <HackEgo> 323) <elliott> just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile
23:43:59 <HackEgo> 323) <elliott> just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile
23:44:14 <HackEgo> 323) >>>>>>> /tmp/quotes~other.jicWNf
23:44:28 <HackEgo> 323) >>>>>>> /tmp/quotes~other.jicWNf
23:44:36 <HackEgo> 323) <elliott> just because i'm homosexual <elliott> doesn't mean i have sex with men. <elliott> ...i'm also a paedophile [...] <elliott> see if i'm a gay paedophile <elliott> i don't have sex with men <elliott> i have sex with BOYS
23:44:49 <HackEgo> 324) <oklopol> actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia
23:47:31 <oklopol> anyone in turku? i'd like some coke
23:50:23 <Gregor> Are you saying you didn't like those quotes?
23:50:28 <Gregor> I thought they were great quotes.
23:51:06 * Gregor goes to drink some meh.
23:51:26 <oklopol> FROM THIS MOMENT ON, EVERY TIME I SAY COKE I SHALL MEAN COCA COLA IN THE ONLY FUCKING SENSE OF THE WORD
23:52:56 <Gregor> There's a fucking sense of "COCA COLA"? Some kind of sex act?
23:53:14 <Prince_Charles> Gregor, well, there is that myth that it's a contraceptive...
23:53:25 <oklopol> is there a mythbusters episode?
23:53:49 <Gregor> I think they mentioned it in their cola myths episode.
23:54:09 <Gregor> They mixed coke with sperm :P
23:54:12 <Gregor> I think it was Adam's.
23:54:40 <Gregor> I think it was always thought to be a spermicide, not some more general contraceptive.
23:56:18 <Prince_Charles> No, unless Adam's sperm are significantly less robust than average.
23:56:25 <Gregor> IIRC, the sperm seemed to like the Coke :P
23:56:47 * elliott injects coke into his testicles
23:56:51 <oklopol> i've always wanted to make love in a tub full of coke
23:57:04 -!- elliott has left (?).
23:57:07 -!- elliott has joined.
23:57:12 <elliott> oklopol: "make love" WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE REAL OKLOPOL
23:57:21 <Prince_Charles> oklopol, are these the artistic differences that led to you and your girlfriend breaking up?
23:57:42 <oklopol> i felt like it was the appropriate word for inserting penis in vagina in coke
23:57:57 <oklopol> Prince_Charles: yes, she prefers sprite
23:58:27 <Prince_Charles> "The ONLY soft drink I will have sex with you in is Sprite!" "THEN WE'RE THROUGH!"
23:58:44 <pikhq> Gregor: Seems like Coke's acidity, at least, would be a bit much.
23:58:49 <oklopol> yes, we tried fanta, but that didn't work AT ALL.
23:59:18 <Prince_Charles> pikhq, ISTR that there was a study showing that it is nearly useless as a spermicide
23:59:36 <Gregor> `addquote * elliott injects coke into his testicles
23:59:37 <HackEgo> 325) * elliott injects coke into his testicles