00:00:19 <Sgeo> elliott, just pretend I never took any interest in COBOL.
00:00:29 <elliott> oerjan: do you just make up puns all day, say yes
00:03:06 <oerjan> i also sometimes eat and drink
00:04:37 <elliott> oerjan: HOW OFTEN, COMPARED TO PUNNING, ON AVERAGE, WOULD YOU SAY
00:05:06 <elliott> "Somewhere in the region of... zero, perhaps?"
00:05:17 <oerjan> NO A BIT HIGHER THAN THAT
00:05:37 <oerjan> well depends on region size, i guess
00:06:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:16:47 <elliott> oerjan: what is it with the french? i ask you.
00:17:26 <Gregor> WHY IS HONEY NOT SWEET
00:17:33 <Gregor> I've been lied to my whole life!
00:17:36 <elliott> Gregor: Too busy being delicious.
00:17:47 <Gregor> Even when I eat honey it's lying to me, it pretends to be sweet BUT IT'S NOT
00:18:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:19:05 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +o Gregor.
00:19:26 <Gregor> elliott: Now unban me from #esoteric-minecraft or I ban you from #esoteric :P
00:19:33 <elliott> Gregor: You're banned in -minecraft??
00:19:41 <elliott> Wait, did my unban not work? X-D
00:19:49 <elliott> * #esoteric-minecraft Banlist: Wed Mar 9 05:25:36 *!*Gregor@*.org elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott
00:20:22 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +b honey!*@beehive.insectopia.us.
00:20:32 <elliott> Gregor: Just stay being an op.
00:20:43 <elliott> Knowing that someone who isn't a weirdo is an op.
00:21:05 <elliott> Hmm, banning feels an awful lot like swatting.
00:21:59 <elliott> HAH. Tunes does the exact same memory-disk unification as me.
00:22:10 <elliott> I have this horrible feeling that all my ideas have been previously invented during Tunes.
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00:25:22 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b noteda*!*@174.122.*.
00:25:42 <oerjan> a spammer from a while ago
00:25:49 <elliott> I don't suppose you're gonna solve the persistent problem :-P
00:26:34 <oerjan> there are all these bans that are so old i have no idea who they are
00:26:57 <elliott> perfect time to start anew, with fresh, exciting, relevant, modern bans.
00:27:27 <elliott> well a few should probably stay. some i don't quite understand.
00:27:32 <elliott> * #esoteric Banlist: Wed Jan 19 06:33:28 *!*@unaffiliated/reikon sendak.freenode.net
00:27:55 <elliott> oerjan: the person who Quadrescence bought in to taunt fax for ~a whole day
00:28:08 <elliott> which ended up having about 90% of the trolling getting trolled for ridiculous hours until i convinced you to ban them both.
00:28:11 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@unaffiliated/reikon.
00:28:17 <elliott> but then dixon appealed on quad's behalf. but quad is now gone now. so there should be no problem.
00:28:55 <elliott> oerjan: Libster was the guy who (pathetically, admittedly) tried trolling us for like a few days. unlikely to return.
00:29:07 <elliott> the .mx one looks like an anti-spam one. I suspect the "email" ones too
00:29:35 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:21:40:24 --- join: darfur (n=darfur@c-24-11-26-71.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #esoteric
00:29:35 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:22:16:02 --- mode: lament set +b *!*n=darfur@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net
00:29:45 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net.
00:29:50 <elliott> after being an irritating cock
00:29:57 <elliott> 21:43:55 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
00:29:57 <elliott> 21:43:58 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
00:29:57 <elliott> (about 100 repetitions of this)
00:30:10 <elliott> oh, and a full recital of 99 bottles of beer triggered by him.
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:17:08 <oerjan> i see i just escaped the action.
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:17:13 --- mode: lament set -o lament
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:17:24 <oerjan> makes the logs rather quick to read...
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:20:20 * lament blows the smoke off the tip of the gun and puts the gun back into the belt
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:21:51 <lament> putting retards out of their misery since 2007
00:30:25 <elliott> 22:23:21 * oerjan cunningly detects a ddarius inspiration
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00:30:50 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/10.10.16:19:57:31 --- mode: oerjan set +b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142
00:30:54 <elliott> that was Sgeo's beyond-retarded pal.
00:31:15 <elliott> oerjan: EXCUSE ME I AM DOING YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU?
00:31:48 <elliott> sheesh, fuckin' rude ops these days
00:32:00 <elliott> oerjan: the shutup@ bans, those are all mistakes, absolutely
00:32:06 <elliott> you should remove all of them. now.
00:32:49 <elliott> he was the ghetto-speak guy
00:32:58 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*darfur@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net.
00:33:24 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.19:13:19:57 --- join: Conceptual (n=Conceptu@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com) joined #esoteric
00:33:24 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:21:39:17 --- join: Conceptual (n=Conceptu@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com) joined #esoteric
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00:34:06 <elliott> 17:24:23 <lament> smuckers: so, please explain why you insist on vandalizing our wiki.
00:34:06 <elliott> 17:25:00 <smuckers> intense boredom
00:34:12 <elliott> maybe leave that ban there :)
00:34:25 <elliott> 17:25:19 <FunnyMan3595> smuckers: And vandalism helps?
00:34:26 <elliott> 17:25:36 <smuckers> no, i still feel so empty inside
00:34:26 <elliott> 17:26:01 <bsmntbombdood> maybe a cock in you would fill you up
00:34:33 <elliott> #ESOTERIC, THE HOME OF GOOD ADVICE
00:34:53 <elliott> that's the same as the other email guy
00:35:04 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: hi. we're cleaning out the ban list.
00:36:27 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142.
00:37:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@67.15.72.46.
00:38:26 <oerjan> i have this strange intuition not to unban that wideopenwest guy, so i won't.
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00:39:38 <elliott> oerjan: but how will you ever gauge the accuracy of your intuition if you don't test it?
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00:41:17 <elliott> oerjan: I think I've found the source of Unlambda's perversity.
00:41:25 <elliott> "I believe (though Faré disagrees) the starting point for Tunes should be Hurd+Guile."
00:41:56 <oerjan> ...what does that have to do with unlambda? oh hm.
00:47:11 <elliott> hmm, how does one express the iota combinator with SKI?
00:48:59 <oerjan> specifically, the iota combinator
00:49:19 <elliott> oerjan: as seen in the language ``Iota''
00:49:27 <elliott> coming to a Chris Barker near you
00:49:41 <elliott> the simplest definition would be nice :p
00:49:46 <elliott> (i.e. one that reduces to xSK almost directly...)
00:50:36 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> (SI(KS))x(KKx)
00:50:45 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) ->
00:51:07 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx)
00:51:12 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx) -> x((KS)x)(KKx)
00:51:18 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx) -> x((KS)x)(KKx) -> xSK
00:51:31 <elliott> oerjan: (Writing a Lazy K implementation; having Iota would be inelegant!)
00:52:41 <elliott> oerjan: actually I can't really figure out a "clean" way to do Lazy K in Haskell, the "FFI" so-to-speak between the lazy k and the Haskell to generate the list of church numerals seems difficult to do elegantly
00:53:46 <oerjan> well you don't have to express them directly in SKI...
00:53:57 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but the point is that I don't want to have to pattern-match or whatever
00:53:59 <elliott> I want to be able to write
00:54:29 <elliott> unlist f = f (\x y -> x : unlist y)
00:54:58 <elliott> oerjan: I suppose I could do
00:55:11 <elliott> data Foo = Fun (Foo -> Foo) | Int Integer | List [Foo]
00:55:21 <elliott> oerjan: but the issue with that is that each parameter would have to know how to operate on Ints, etc.
00:55:21 <oerjan> you need at least a newtype wrapper...
00:55:44 <elliott> i.e. what's the result of S (List []) (Int 4) (List [Int 3])?
00:57:09 <oerjan> maybe something higher-rank...
00:57:39 <elliott> oerjan: define "higher-rank" :P
00:57:45 <oerjan> the types get in the way there...
00:58:21 <elliott> oerjan: I suppose I could do "data Foo = Fun (Foo -> Foo) | YouCan'tApplyThatLol Foo Foo | ValueThings" where the middle one is generated when trying to apply non-functions
00:58:24 <elliott> but that seems awfully hacky
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01:04:46 <elliott> oerjan: Wanna elaborate on that higher-rank remar? :P
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01:05:32 <oerjan> i'm not sure that actually would help
01:06:02 <oerjan> the thing is there is nothing in the type of a combinator that tells whether it actually _should_ be usable as a number
01:06:13 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, I think the key in
01:06:16 <elliott> <elliott> unchurch f = f (+1) 0
01:06:17 <elliott> <elliott> unlist f = f (\x y -> x : unlist y)
01:06:21 <elliott> is that you _never_ apply them to anything else
01:06:28 <elliott> so all you need is something like
01:06:51 <oerjan> i mean you have no way to know whether you pass it an f that would try to apply (+1) to S, or something
01:07:07 <elliott> you can just error out when applying an int or whatever... I _think_
01:07:20 <elliott> oerjan: in fact I think that's what a Scheme implementation would do
01:07:26 <elliott> (representing them as pure lambdas
01:07:35 <elliott> -> if it applies the 0, fail
01:07:39 <elliott> -> if it applies the 1+ to a function, fail
01:07:52 <elliott> but it would be nice if _everything_ could evaluate without error
01:07:58 <elliott> (you could just infiniloop, but that's chetaing)
01:08:09 <elliott> because from an LC point of view, you can treat a piece of data as anything you want
01:08:13 <elliott> functions all have infinite arguments :)
01:08:32 <elliott> oerjan: btw your swattage is required: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FireFly/Enterbrainfuck&action=history
01:09:30 <elliott> whoa, jwz moved off livejournal
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01:30:30 <elliott> I wonder if implementing the underlying @ objects on top of an existing system would be useful for prototyping the higher-level materials before porting the lower-level ones to x86-64.
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01:41:56 <elliott> pikhq_: I HIRE YOU TO WORK ON @.
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02:08:26 <elliott> pikhq: Did you say RTK2 was any good or not? ...or was it the kana volume that's no good
02:08:36 <elliott> Ah, RTK2 looks Chinese-focused.
02:19:02 <elliott> olsner: is "call [di]" actually ok?
02:19:08 <elliott> i.e. di contains the address of a subroutine to call
02:22:45 <elliott> i should probably set up a stack before trying to call
02:22:47 <elliott> except it's working anyway
02:26:26 <pikhq> elliott: RTK2 is the reading volume, and it's not really worth it.
02:26:43 <elliott> pikhq: What would you suggest as a substitute?
02:27:01 <elliott> I'm intending to buy RTK1 and 3 (together to help shipping costs) at least.
02:27:30 <pikhq> elliott: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about/overview-page
02:27:41 <elliott> pikhq: YOUR DEFLECTION IS SO DEFLECTY, MY FRIEND.
02:27:57 <pikhq> elliott: "Learn to read aloud 10,000 gramatically correct, native-like Japanese sentences/phrases (confession: I only learned ~7500 in the 18-month period, but you are better than me).
02:28:14 <pikhq> There. That'll do it.
02:28:34 <elliott> pikhq: Yeeees... but that doesn't exactly help.
02:28:47 <elliott> "To learn Japanese, learn Japanese." "Okay, how?" "By taking actions such that you will learn Japanese."
02:29:03 <Sgeo> That sounds like a very zz038 thing
02:29:35 <elliott> pikhq: I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THE ISSUE HERE.
02:31:15 <pikhq> elliott: I suggest you simply straight-up start learning Japanese after RTK1, rather than brute-forcing vague rules for how to remember one of the readings for the kanji.
02:31:30 <pikhq> You'll get the readings without much work, trust me.
02:31:50 <elliott> pikhq: Staring at a bunch of kanji won't magically impart upon me the ability to read them, unless I either have a defective definition of "read", or the human brain has magical powers.
02:33:06 <elliott> pikhq: Define "read", maybe I'm misunderstanding.
02:34:12 <pikhq> elliott: Basically, I am suggesting you do as Khatzumoto did: pick a sentence. Learn how to read it. Learn enough to understand it. Be sure to be able to write it. Stick it in your SRS. Repeat.
02:34:51 <elliott> pikhq: "Stick it in your SRS" -- this requires the ability to type Japanese text on the computer, which AFAIK involves knowing the readings; do you propose I pick characters out from a map?
02:35:25 <pikhq> elliott: First, after *not very long* you will know *a* reading for most of the kanji. Second, http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/
02:35:40 <pikhq> elliott: Third, have a text file containing Heisig keywords & kanji.
02:35:53 <pikhq> elliott: Fourth, there's some site that lets you draw a kanji and it'll try to OCR it.
02:36:25 <pikhq> elliott: Fifth, if it's on the web you can copy-paste. Sixth, dude step two is "learn how to read it".
02:37:01 <elliott> pikhq: (1) By what logic? Like I said, *I am not going to learn readings just by staring at kanji*. (2) Yes, a friend pointed me to this; it looks quite nice, but I wouldn't want to write out an entire sentence like that. (3) That sounds nice; wonder if there are any available to download, since I'm lazy. (4) Fair enough; still sounds tedious, though. (5) True. (6) How -- magic? I'm asking for *resources* here.
02:37:23 <pikhq> elliott: You look them up.
02:37:28 <elliott> You're answering "so how should I learn the readings?" with "Loop: learn a reading. Repeat." which is not helpful.
02:37:48 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: You look them up. ;; Where? jisho.org?
02:37:55 <pikhq> Among other things, sure.
02:38:09 <pikhq> The thing is, RTK2-ing things is not going to help you much.
02:38:12 <elliott> pikhq: "Among other things" -- I'm explicitly asking for resources here.
02:38:30 <pikhq> elliott: jisho.org is the one I usually use.
02:38:44 <elliott> http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E6%9B%B8 ;; picking at random, the "Readings" section here does not include a Japanese entry. Am I looking in the wrong place, or does this kanji not have a reading or something? (I literally picked at random.)
02:38:54 <elliott> (And have, of course, very little idea what I am talking about.
02:39:06 * Sgeo WTFs at Weebls-stuff's Owls song
02:39:14 <elliott> Or are the Chinese readings the relevant ones?
02:39:19 <pikhq> elliott: Look at "Japanese kun" and "Japanese on".
02:39:41 <elliott> pikhq: Need I learn both, or is one vastly more useful than the other?
02:39:58 <pikhq> You will *undoubtedly* learn both.
02:40:28 <pikhq> Kun readings are used primarily for words of native Japanese origin, and on primarily for Chinese origin words.
02:40:34 <pikhq> And both are *extremely* common.
02:40:48 <pikhq> And RTK2 only covers the on readings.
02:41:03 <pikhq> Actually, only *one* on reading per character; some have multiple.
02:41:07 <elliott> pikhq: So is there a pre-available text file of Heisig's readings and the kanji? Entering that sounds like a bitch because of the aforementioned can't-fucking-type-it problem.
02:41:25 <pikhq> Lemme find a nice one for you.
02:41:27 <elliott> Also, are IMEs based on the kun or the on? Please forgive my stupid questions.
02:41:54 <pikhq> IMEs are based on whichever reading is appropriate in context.
02:42:09 <elliott> pikhq: Now would be a bad time to mention that I fucking hate context.
02:42:10 <pikhq> You just type in how it would actually be said, and it figures it out.
02:42:23 <elliott> It occurs to me that I have a trouble committing to any long-term endeavour unless I know all the steps beforehand. :p
02:44:07 <pikhq> http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/data/Heisig_complete_v3.rtf Annoyingly, it's RTF.
02:44:58 <pikhq> But includes the keywords, stories when available, and relevant kun readings.
02:46:05 <pikhq> As for learning how things work based on context: the human brain is magic.
02:47:30 <copumpkin> pikhq: holy shit, that's all the characters and stories?
02:47:54 <copumpkin> he only includes the first 500 or so?
02:48:13 <pikhq> The RTK Yahoo! group.
02:48:35 <copumpkin> what's the license on that? and are the first 500 or so stories heisig's or theirs?
02:49:01 <elliott> Come on, all it needs is "<kanji> <mnemonics>".
02:49:03 <pikhq> Could probably find another one containing the same info, buut that's the first one I found, and it seems decent.
02:49:21 <elliott> Oh yay, it's in a retarded format so I'll have to convert it specially to get something greppable.
02:50:09 <elliott> pikhq: Wouldn't it be far more effective to have a file with _just_ the mnemonics without the flavour text, so that one can grep the memorised mnemonics to get the kanji...? >_<
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02:50:54 <pikhq> elliott: Probably?
02:51:20 <elliott> pikhq: Just thinking that there's no computerised way to go from list of mnemonics --> kanji character.
02:51:22 <pikhq> elliott: I think you could tell Anki to export a CSV containing just the kanji & mnemonics values from the RTK deck you have.
02:51:38 <elliott> It'd be nice if those post-500 stories were included in the book, too. :p
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02:57:47 <elliott> pikhq: So in summary, all I need to buy is RTK1&3 and if I'm feeling TOTALLY EXTRAVAGANT, RTKana.
02:57:58 <pikhq> elliott: RTK3 isn't even all that necessary.
02:58:15 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but I might be able to save on shipping costs if I buy both together, and I might as well get it.
02:58:25 <oerjan> <elliott> It occurs to me that I have a trouble committing to any long-term endeavour unless I know all the steps beforehand. :p <-- well you're not alone :)
02:58:40 <pikhq> And you'll probably be making extensive use of BitTorrent.
02:58:45 <elliott> yeah, oerjan refused to be born until the whole process was explained to him
02:58:52 <elliott> "so after I get my Ph.D., what then?"
02:58:57 <elliott> "You know what, fuck you, you're going in."
02:59:07 <elliott> ...and that's why oerjan is spending his days in here!
02:59:12 * elliott prepares for extreme swattage.
02:59:17 <elliott> Swattage of a kind never seen before.
02:59:41 <elliott> oerjan: STOP STARING AT ME IT'S WORSE THAN SWATTING.
02:59:49 <elliott> Gregor: BAN HIM IF HE DOESN'T STOP STARING AT ME
03:00:41 <elliott> Clearly oerjan's connection has died.
03:01:07 <oerjan> elliott: THAT EXPLAINS SO MUCH
03:01:15 <elliott> oerjan: took you a while to type that
03:01:33 <oerjan> i was in the backscroll
03:01:33 <elliott> oerjan: see the rest of us did it the smart way, we just asked for the instruction manual.
03:02:56 <elliott> > length "87E55BFF3787E5C3" `div` 2
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03:05:11 <elliott> hmm, so about five bytes of overhead
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03:07:39 <elliott> quick! what do I call >r and r> if I have no > :P
03:07:48 <elliott> I could do to_r but that's boring
03:08:24 <elliott> eh, tor and fromr are good enough
03:11:06 <elliott> I should probably implement integer literals at some point
03:11:58 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, one other source for readings.
03:12:16 <pikhq> elliott: Material intended for children and/or learners of Japanese has furigana.
03:12:31 <elliott> Furigana looks TOTES BORING though.
03:12:37 <pikhq> (furigana, BTW, is where the reading of kanji is written beside or above the kanji, depending on writing orientation)
03:12:46 <Sgeo> What're >r and r>?
03:13:39 <elliott> "In Japan, by law, newspapers using kanji outside the jōyō kanji list must annotate them with furigana."
03:13:49 <elliott> Is Japan just trying to make things really easy for foreigners or something?
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03:14:59 <pikhq> That practice started before Japan had a high level of literacy in the population.
03:15:04 <elliott> "Hiragana are sometimes used to write words which would normally written with katakana to make them appear more "feminine", particularly in comic books and cartoons for young girls." --omniglot.com
03:15:11 <elliott> Well there's the stupidest idea I've ever heard right there.
03:15:25 <pikhq> And wrong, anyways.
03:15:43 <pikhq> Writing in all-hiragana just seems a bit childish.
03:15:57 <pikhq> Because, well, how many kanji do kids know, anyways?
03:16:14 <elliott> 348957938457348957983457834975983457
03:17:28 <elliott> pikhq: IT'S A FACTUAL FIGURE.
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03:20:02 <elliott> "Often the speed advantage of C/C++ (as well as the relative portability) out-weighs the use of other languages."
03:20:10 <elliott> I wish this myth of speed would die.
03:20:50 <elliott> pikhq: JOIN ME IN PURGING THE WORLD OF MYTHOLOGY.
03:21:47 <Sgeo> elliott, myth of "speed" being so important, or is C/C++ not relatively fast for similar straightforward code? Can you please explain the latter? (I grok the former)
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03:31:38 <Gregor> The myths w.r.t. speed have a lot more to do with slowness of other language than speed of C.
03:32:36 <elliott> Gregor: Except that other languages *aren't* slow; other languages are *slower*.
03:32:44 <elliott> (Ignoring Ruby and the like, which really are just slow.)
03:33:05 <elliott> Gregor: Well, so it's not valid.
03:33:31 <elliott> Gregor: Especially considering that in any "modern" OS, a program's time is spent in something like 100% syscalls (rounding up from 99.9%)
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03:33:42 <elliott> Which is, of course, why @ has syscall inlining. :p
03:33:45 <Gregor> Depends on the program, but yeah, that's true, and people don't realize that :P
03:33:58 <elliott> THE JOYS OF RUNNING EVERYTHING IN RING 0
03:35:13 <Gregor> STILL ACCEPTING LIBC.SO DONATIONS
03:36:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, have you received any donations?
03:37:05 <Sgeo> Did you count self-donations in that?
03:37:16 <Gregor> Self-donations aren't donations.
03:38:19 <elliott> EXPERT RESEARCHERS HAVE DISCOVERED THE ONE THING THAT WILL RESURRECT THE ADVICE ANIMALS MEME'S FUNNINESS.
03:38:30 <elliott> I've invented a completely revolutionary form of breakfast technology
03:39:34 <oerjan> elliott: extra points if you manage to get the real wolfram to sue
03:39:46 <elliott> "I took a dump today and it was shaped like a möbius strip
03:39:52 <elliott> oerjan: THIS HAS SO MUCH POTENTIAL.
03:39:58 <elliott> "In 1876, Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone
03:39:58 <elliott> And that's why I'm a genius"
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03:42:12 <elliott> "Here's the simplest universal Turing machine
03:42:12 <elliott> Discovered by the most advanced intellect on the planet"
03:48:03 <elliott> "Oh, hi, Reverend! Want a cup of tea?
03:50:10 <elliott> Hmmhmm, in a perl -ne '...' a b c invocation, is there a way to get at the current filename?
03:54:11 <elliott> oerjan: doesn't that just give the first filename?
03:54:14 <elliott> or are they actually popped off?
03:54:18 <elliott> also, oerjan knows perl? :)
03:54:26 <oerjan> $ARGV contains the name of the current file when reading from <>.
03:54:32 <oerjan> i know how to do man perlvar
03:56:30 <elliott> so oerjan, if you're so smart, how do I print a variable quoted (i.e. with " escaped) >:)
03:57:15 * oerjan switches to man perlfunc
03:57:42 <elliott> You kids and your fancy manpages.
03:57:45 <elliott> Back in my day, we just asked oerjan.
03:58:37 <oerjan> print "\Q$VAR"; possibly
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03:59:03 <elliott> \Q$VAR\E for longer things, it seems
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03:59:13 <elliott> seems to escape an awful lot, though :)
03:59:18 <elliott> seems to be intended for regexps
03:59:37 <elliott> it even escapes spaces X_X
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04:01:05 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 195M 2011-03-10 04:41 esoteric.pl
04:01:08 <elliott> don't let the extension fool you
04:01:16 <elliott> now to feed it into gprolog and hope it doesn't die.
04:01:30 <elliott> oerjan: \Q is way too overzealous :P
04:03:41 <oerjan> yeah it just uses perl's simple backslashing rule
04:06:20 <elliott> oerjan: WELL MAYBE I DON'T WANT A SIMPLE RULE
04:06:22 <elliott> MAYBE I WANT A CLEVER RULE
04:06:38 <oerjan> then write a substitution. i hear perl is good for that.
04:08:03 <elliott> oerjan: Your snarkiness is unmatched, bro.
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04:10:49 <elliott> pikhq: Tomorrow I'll buy RTK1&3, I think.
04:11:41 <Gregor> pikhq: DONATE TO DA LIBC.SO FUND DOIT
04:12:31 <elliott> WHAT ARE THE VALID STRING ESCAPES IN PROLOG BITCHES
04:12:37 <elliott> THAT'S WHAT I BITCHINGLY ASK YOU
04:15:18 <pikhq> elliott: It's not always true that a program spends 100% of its time in syscalls.
04:15:26 <pikhq> Just true for some 99% of the programs people care about.
04:15:41 <elliott> 100% of programs spend 100% of their time in syscalls.
04:15:48 <elliott> And 100% of the time spent in syscalls is spent waiting for IO.
04:16:46 <oerjan> the world of computing is waiting for the new supercomputer optimized for waiting
04:19:56 <elliott> ugh, all i want to do is query #esoteric with prolog :)
04:22:13 <elliott> whoa, gwern used to be in here
04:25:11 <elliott> 17:42:39 <ehird> there's an O(n) one for base-16 isn't there?
04:25:11 <elliott> 17:44:12 <pikhq> No, from what I understand O(n^2) is the best one.
04:25:11 <elliott> 17:44:21 <pikhq> (for finding arbitrary digits)
04:25:19 <elliott> am i misinterpreting this or was 2009-pikhq MISINFORMED
04:25:56 <elliott> 18:32:36 * pikhq wishes that getting a digit of pi were a function of the previous digits
04:25:59 <elliott> It's a function of the position :P
04:26:09 <pikhq> That was *really* stupid.
04:26:19 <elliott> Yeah. You were pretty much the WORST!
04:26:45 <oerjan> well blaim it on his youth
04:27:14 * oerjan blames his spelling on senile old age
04:27:16 <elliott> i used to think pikhq was like 24
04:27:46 <elliott> but Gregor was older than i expected, at 30
04:30:26 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
04:30:39 <lambdabot> *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
04:30:59 <elliott> first time show has ever REMOVED a quote :)
04:31:37 <oerjan> lessee that probably defaults to () inside...
04:32:00 <oerjan> show . error is obviously a string
04:32:12 <elliott> oerjan: show . error just time limits, though
04:32:19 <elliott> (fix error) afaict should not output "
04:32:23 <oerjan> yes i'm just wondering why
04:32:26 <elliott> unless error's return value is defaulting to string
04:32:31 <lambdabot> against inferred type `[GHC.Types...
04:32:41 <oerjan> elliott: i think lambdabot does something special with errors
04:32:47 <elliott> because fix is (a -> a) -> a
04:32:52 <elliott> so it goes to show the string
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04:58:18 <pikhq> *Gaaah*, US immigration.
04:58:26 <pikhq> We have a quota of 700,000 per year. Total.
04:58:37 <pikhq> 50,000 of that is divided out in a lottery. Literally a lottery.
04:59:27 <pikhq> 40,000 is for people with advanced degrees.
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05:29:47 <oklopol> the last 6 nights, i have had a dream containing exactly one person i know, in all cases they have done something that is just slightly not characteristic to them
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05:34:30 <oklopol> and does elliott want to learn japanese? that sounds crazy
05:40:12 <pikhq> oklopol: Quite honestly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if he keeps it up for a week.
05:42:55 <oklopol> well i find the wanting interesting
05:46:27 <oklopol> i couldn't manually start obsessions in his age either, or at least the skill started developing thereabouts
05:51:53 <oklopol> is 700,000 very little? you have what 500 million people or what?
05:52:52 <oklopol> i wish there was a webpage where you could look this stuff up
05:54:39 <pikhq> 700,000 is freaking tiny.
05:55:09 <pikhq> We have 308 million people.
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05:55:39 <oklopol> i suppose they don't want to ruin your pure american blood
05:55:49 <pikhq> It's even worse when you consider that a *gigantic* chunk of those you basically get for luck.
05:56:06 <pikhq> The easiest way to immigrate, though, is to marry an American.
05:56:15 <pikhq> You immediately get permanent residency.
05:56:21 <pikhq> None of this *waiting 10 years* bullshit.
05:56:25 <oklopol> do they organize temporary weddingings for this stuff
05:56:34 <pikhq> It happens sometimes.
05:57:22 <pikhq> You have the green card; you're not freaking losing it.
05:59:13 <oklopol> so there's this girl in the graph theory course, she told us she knows how to solve the discrete logarithm problem: "instead of logarithms, you take the integrals. then, you take the discrete version instead, because that's easier to think about. now, the crucial thing is that they come from the other dimensions, and you can call them in *every point*." "erm, call what?" "well... umm... all of them! and then the you take the ring, and they keep circlin
05:59:28 <pikhq> Ultimately, it seems easier to immigrate to Japan than the US. And Japan has an *infamously* difficult immigration system.
05:59:48 <oklopol> then person x asked what the discrete logarithm is, and i explained, and the girl was like "oh that's what it is? lol, i was solving a much harder problem"
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06:00:52 <oklopol> this "girl" is actually like 40 but anyway
06:01:18 <pikhq> (Japan has: no quotas. No "temporary worker" visas. No waiting lists. 5 years after being in the country and you can apply for citizenship. Permanent residency is an absurd bitch, though)
06:01:33 <pikhq> (Yes, permanent residency is harder than citizenship)
06:02:34 <oklopol> i don't really know how things work in finland either
06:02:41 <oklopol> so i have little to compare with
06:02:46 <oklopol> i assume we do things in a relatively sane way
06:02:54 <oklopol> because we're one of the normal countries
06:03:25 <oklopol> the BORING countries :((((((((((((
06:03:46 <oklopol> i have never even seen a massacre
06:04:24 <pikhq> Not sure on how the visas work, but citizenship seems relatively sane.
06:04:49 <pikhq> Also, visas only relevant for non-Schengen.
06:05:05 <oklopol> usa is awesome though, we had this researcher from allah country x, and he could never get to the conferences in usa because of that
06:05:50 <oklopol> maybe he wrote INFIDELS MUST DIE in the application paper, dunno
06:08:52 <pikhq> At worst, you could immigrate to Finland by immigrating to the easiest EU country to immigrate to, get citizenship, and move.
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06:12:22 <pikhq> Ah, seems that to immigrate to Finland you need to just have family there, intend to study there, or intend to work there.
06:12:40 <pikhq> Voila, you get a residence permit.
06:12:51 <pikhq> Be there for 6 years, and you can get citizenship. Voila.
06:15:10 <pikhq> Though you need to know one of Finnish, Swedish, or Finnish sign language to become a citizen.
06:15:54 <pikhq> Still. Entirely sane and manageable.
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06:17:14 <oklopol> swedish is essentially english, and finnish is essentially estonian
06:17:49 <elliott> Sleep schedule upside-down.
06:17:55 <elliott> oklopol is pleasant surprise, hello.
06:18:43 <elliott> 06:15:46 <oklopol> and does elliott want to learn japanese? that sounds crazy
06:18:44 <elliott> 06:21:29 <pikhq> oklopol: Quite honestly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if he keeps it up for a week.
06:19:05 <oklopol> elliott: i've been sleeping 7pm-3am lately
06:19:05 <elliott> it's menial busywork, it's not like projects where I can architecture myself way out of space and then realise it'll be an unholy bitch to do
06:19:19 <elliott> oklopol: oh, that's the worst. well 8pm-4am is the absolute worst, IMHO
06:19:26 <elliott> oklopol: I'm on 6 am - 4 pm, basically
06:19:36 <oklopol> yeah i've done a lot of that stuff
06:20:01 <oklopol> but the pmtoam is new to me, and it seems to work better than a normal sleep schedule
06:20:14 <elliott> oklopol: midday/1pm wakeup is ideal imho
06:20:26 <elliott> nice warm afternoon wakeup, late sleepytime
06:22:50 <oklopol> well see i love being at the university, alone in the darkness
06:23:23 <elliott> oklopol: i like nighttime, but when i don't get much daytime at all when i wake up it fucks me up a bit
06:23:34 <pikhq> elliott: True, it will be much easier for you to estabilish inertia.
06:24:06 <elliott> punctuation is too hard :))
06:24:11 <elliott> wanna sleep already, this is not goodgoing
06:24:13 <oklopol> "elliott: you suck" "pikhq: haha typo"
06:24:29 <oklopol> those were like what you prefix your things with
06:24:39 <oklopol> elliott: you are a fucking idiot
06:24:46 <pikhq> elliott: I'm sleep deprived and should be going to bed right now. I'm tired.
06:24:56 <elliott> pikhq: haha join the club it's the best club *hi5*
06:25:02 <elliott> pikhq: i woke up at 4 pm, it's now 7 am
06:25:14 <elliott> <pikhq> ... I am not worthy
06:25:21 <pikhq> I've just been cutting sleep short an hour or two the past week.
06:25:34 <oklopol> i went to sleep at 23 and woke up at 8
06:25:35 <pikhq> Nothing near as crazy as that, because I have class.
06:25:54 <elliott> oklopol: why's it sound crazy though, legit interested
06:26:01 <elliott> (me wanting to learn moonspeak)
06:26:12 <oklopol> elliott: dunno, just kinda random
06:26:14 <pikhq> oklopol: Linear algebra, differential equations, logic, and current political issues.
06:26:17 <oklopol> who'd want to learn japanese
06:26:31 <oklopol> pikhq: ah the four classics
06:26:39 <oklopol> i took those on my first year
06:26:56 <pikhq> oklopol: 皆！皆が日本語を勉強したいぜっ！
06:27:14 <oklopol> elliott: i want to learn japanese because i already know some of it, originally i just wanted to learn *a* language
06:27:33 <elliott> oklopol: it's agglutinative, doesn't have a boring latin-derivative alphabet, and, I dunno
06:27:38 <oklopol> pikhq: all! all will japanese want to learn ze
06:27:44 <elliott> the other contestant was Finnish. but your alphabet is boring.
06:27:54 <pikhq> oklopol: Everyone! Everyone wants to learn Japanese!
06:27:54 <elliott> even if your agglutinativity is better i guess. whatev.
06:27:59 <pikhq> elliott: I bet that looks much less like moonspeak to you now.
06:28:07 <oklopol> i would've translated it better if i'd known i'd know all the kanji
06:28:14 <elliott> pikhq: no, it looks exactly like moonspeak. i didn't continue with the sampler
06:28:25 <elliott> at least i can see that they're theoretically made out of multiple bits at least :D
06:29:49 <oklopol> so that all kanji, is minna one of its readings?
06:30:00 <elliott> oklopol: but ehh, with finnish i'd have to like get down to the business of actually learning the shits quickly
06:30:12 <elliott> oklopol: no funky alphabet
06:30:19 <elliott> oklopol: with japanese I can trick myself into thinking it's easy enough to continue because I have to learn all dem kanjae first
06:30:29 <oklopol> well it doesn't take you that long
06:30:30 <elliott> which is trivial but time-consuming.
06:30:53 <elliott> oklopol: rtk1&3 is ~3 months i think
06:31:33 <oklopol> i have spent quite a lot more than 3 hours on the kanji :D
06:31:44 <oklopol> at least hmmhmm 50 hours maybe
06:32:02 <elliott> they're pretty too. although finnish is also pretty
06:32:06 <oklopol> and i still don't know that many
06:32:19 <elliott> but really, "kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen", who can ever understand words like that, finnish is too hard
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06:32:58 <pikhq> If you just add a few more vowels, it could almost pass for Japanese. :P
06:33:09 <elliott> note: i invented that word.
06:33:14 <elliott> with MINIMAL aid from oklopol.
06:33:28 <elliott> 06:50:10 <pikhq> At worst, you could immigrate to Finland by immigrating to the easiest EU country to immigrate to, get citizenship, and move.
06:33:29 <elliott> isn't "emigrate" more correct here
06:33:40 <pikhq> kakusikyammentanerujatsunchiaikakaushitamanhettakinen.
06:33:49 <elliott> pikhq: what does that mean, doorknob testtube?
06:34:05 <pikhq> elliott: It's Japanese-sounding gibberish.
06:34:31 <pikhq> elliott: Coming from an actual Japanese speaker.
06:34:53 <pikhq> And it's tortoises all the way down.
06:35:02 <oklopol> quick, what's the square root of two?
06:36:37 <oklopol> it is my dream (one of many) to sneak up on pikhq one day and start speaking to him in fluent japanese
06:36:42 <oklopol> i don't wanna go to japan on anything
06:37:00 <elliott> oklopol: let's do it TOGETHER
06:37:07 <elliott> let's get on a flight to japan pikhq is taking
06:37:16 <elliott> and then immediately get a return flight
06:37:35 <elliott> got any vodka, need to make him forget :/
06:37:56 <pikhq> EXCEPT THAT I SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THIS 42 GALLONS OF EVERCLEAR
06:38:13 <oklopol> well there's the slight glitch in the plan that he probably won't share his whereabouts that easily
06:38:25 <oklopol> if i knew where you people lived, i'd have come visit many times already
06:38:40 <pikhq> oklopol: Uh, I have. Several times.
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06:39:00 <oklopol> oh well i have not paid attention i suppose
06:39:16 <oklopol> anyhow usa is kind of different because i don't really know a cheapish way there
06:39:20 <elliott> he's in colorado springs... in the past
06:39:28 <pikhq> elliott: And present.
06:39:41 <pikhq> Well, just outside of Colorado Springs.
06:39:44 <oklopol> but yeah supposedly it came up in the "hey we're fucking each others' neighbors" thingie
06:39:44 <elliott> or was that just into the clitty
06:39:50 <pikhq> I did. Back to Colorado Springs.
06:39:55 <oklopol> i don't remember who the other guy was
06:39:58 <elliott> pikhq: where were you before that, buttfuck colorado?
06:39:58 <oklopol> but pikhq and someone else
06:40:03 <elliott> missouri = buttfuck colorado
06:40:31 <pikhq> elliott: Missouri is 12 hours of driving from here.
06:40:35 * elliott yawnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
06:40:41 <elliott> pikhq: buttfuck coloradozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
06:40:45 <oklopol> pikhq: didn't you and someone else here notice you were each others' neighbors
06:40:51 <elliott> oklopol: you're oklopol, you're meant to be immune to the yawn STD
06:40:54 <oklopol> only like 50 miles between
06:41:06 <elliott> wasn't he in colorado sploots
06:41:08 <pikhq> Oh, 50 miles between? Right, bsmntbombdood.
06:41:20 <pikhq> He was in, like, Boulder, wasn't he?
06:41:21 <elliott> i picked that up by logreading
06:41:31 <elliott> hey oklopol, what's your full address
06:41:46 <elliott> oklopol: but i wanna get on a plane today .........
06:41:54 <oklopol> there's a spa called caribia pretty close tho
06:42:04 <elliott> i think you've told me before
06:42:07 <elliott> so it's really just jigging my memory.
06:42:23 <pikhq> elliott: The distance from here to Missouri is longer than the distance from the southernmost point of the UK to the northernmost point. Now shaddup about Missouri being buttfuck Colorado.
06:42:36 <elliott> pikhq: its like the nether in minecraft, the distances in the usa are just multiplied
06:43:11 <pikhq> That would give the US positively ridiculous population density.
06:43:23 <elliott> pikhq: that's hardly the most ridiculous part of the USA :)
06:43:59 <pikhq> 1,264 people per km² is what it would come down to.
06:44:44 <pikhq> Instead of what it actually is, 33 km².
06:44:55 <elliott> you forgot a people and a slash
06:45:11 <oklopol> elliott owns at debating atm
06:45:19 <elliott> i'm seeing the inner structure of arguments
06:45:25 <elliott> turns out, mostly the inner structure is just trivial bullshit.
06:46:07 <oklopol> okay time to go, we have this great thingie on automata and number theory
06:51:35 <elliott> how much do you know about x86
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07:06:19 <elliott> pikhq: 00:58:01 <ams> as for your code, i cannot read intel assembler.
07:06:30 <elliott> pikhq: There aren't enough sigils, and the operand order is too logical.
07:06:53 <elliott> Also, I'm not burdened by having to spell out the obvious operand sizes in every instruction name.
07:15:51 <elliott> pikhq pikhq pikhq. how much x86 know you
07:16:33 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5230043/computational-cost-of-applicative-style
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07:48:03 <elliott> pikhq: talking to ams is like a ticking timebomb
07:48:08 <elliott> just waiting for him to get annoyed at something i say
07:48:10 <elliott> or realise he ignored me once
07:49:41 <elliott> <ams> anyway, we named the OS GNU, please call it that when refering to GNU.
07:51:05 <elliott> fizzie: ams is a major GNU zealot.
07:51:34 <elliott> fizzie: I'm busy trying to blow his mind by mentioning that Kitten has (will have, would have) almost no GNU software.
07:51:37 <fizzie> With a name like that (edit distance of 1 from rms) he'd sort of have to be.
07:51:43 <elliott> Probably I will blow his mind right with me on to his ignore list.
07:51:49 <elliott> fizzie: He's a "well-known" IRC malcontent/troll.
07:52:02 <fizzie> I am not very much in the "scene".
07:52:07 <fizzie> Maybe I should join more channels some day.
07:52:43 <elliott> fizzie: This is hilarious: he's arguing that GNU have naming rights to a system with almost no GNU software, just because they were, you know, there at the right place at the right time.
07:52:54 <elliott> "we named the OS GNU", honestly, what a god complex.
07:53:06 <elliott> <SunTzu> besides, Linus holds the trademark to Linux, not GNU nor ~rms
07:53:06 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: people saying lies can always say lies.
07:53:06 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: we hold a trademark on GNU btw.
07:53:38 <elliott> The hard part here is keeping up this schtick long enough to irritate him without annoying him so much outright that he just concludes I'm a troll.
07:54:07 <fizzie> GNU coding standard quotation of the day:
07:54:08 <fizzie> Please don’t use “win” as an abbreviation for Microsoft Windows in GNU software or documentation. In hacker terminology, calling something a “win” is a form of praise. If you wish to praise Microsoft Windows when speaking on your own, by all means do so, but not in GNU software. Usually we write the name “Windows” in full, but when brevity is very important (as in file names and sometimes symbol names), we abbreviate it to “w”. For instance, t
07:54:08 <fizzie> he files and functions in Emacs that deal with Windows start with ‘w32’.
07:55:27 <elliott> <ams> elliott: it is also immensly rude to those who wrote the OS to give credit for someone who only did a small work (in the grand scheme of things)
07:55:48 <elliott> Wait, I think I understand now.
07:56:01 <elliott> He maintains GNU inetutils, implementations of ping etc. that absolutely no distro uses.
07:56:09 <elliott> --> HULK SMASH RUDE GNU HATERS
07:56:09 <fizzie> You must start calling it Linux/GNU/God. Because, you know, the grand scheme of things.
07:56:29 <fizzie> Or in the other order, maybe.
07:56:37 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:37 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:38 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:38 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:38 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:39 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:59 <elliott> fizzie: Can you like... put that in the ChanServ welcome message?
07:57:02 <elliott> I feel we can never quote it enough.
07:57:06 <elliott> Shouldn't it be Electricity/GNU/Linux
07:57:11 <elliott> (Started to copy fizzie's troll.)
07:57:15 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:57:41 <fizzie> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Linux&word2=GNU%2FLinux
07:58:01 <elliott> fizzie: Can't link that to him, it requires Flash, which is a tool of the evil empire
07:58:29 <elliott> <ams> elliott: you would be correct if you go back a few years, then it was more common to refer to GNU/Linux incorrecly as Linux.
07:58:31 <elliott> <ams> but these days the opposite it true, which is good
07:58:35 <elliott> <ams> and you can help us clear up the mess
07:58:54 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, he's explained it.
07:58:54 <elliott> fizzie: <ams> elliott: google will filter out the slash
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08:00:55 <fizzie> Yes, it sort-of does, which is why searching for "GNU/Linux" also hits some pages that just say "GNU Linux" in addition to the ones that say "GNU/Linux".
08:01:07 <elliott> <SunTzu> ams "we" do not hold, FSF holds on our behalf, but I object to tacit procuration; who (as in the People) appointed FSF holder of anything; it's people who delegate by contract to FSF to hold their surrendered rights, and thus lose those rights. what is mine is no longer mine when i transfer rights to another.
08:01:30 <fizzie> Sounds almost as topical as this channel.
08:01:54 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: that makes absolutley no sense, and you are spouting lies.
08:01:58 <elliott> Idiots arguing with idiots.
08:02:58 <fizzie> He's sprouting lilies.
08:03:58 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: i can saftley say we seeing i've been part of the GNU project for some odd 20+ years
08:03:58 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: even before we applied for TM of GNU.
08:04:32 <elliott> <SunTzu> linux didnt exist before '93; i started using Linux in '94.
08:04:33 <elliott> <ams> you started using gnu in 94.
08:04:46 <elliott> Hey fizzie, what operating system are you running?
08:05:14 <fizzie> I'm running the GNU/GNU/GNU/GNU/GNU/Lie-nux, because I want to GIVE RESPECT to the MAN.
08:05:26 <elliott> fizzie: WRONG. You're running UNIVERSE.
08:05:30 <elliott> That's the most important contributor in the scheme of things.
08:05:52 <fizzie> http://www.trademarkia.com/gnu-76627381.html ← must be the trademark he's talking about.
08:06:02 <elliott> fizzie: Quick, what's the -ology of naming?
08:06:07 <elliott> Chronological = ology of time.
08:08:26 <elliott> <ams> elliott: what happened in 92 or whatever, was that a bunch of people took a basic GNU system, and ported it to work with the Linux kernel.
08:08:32 <elliott> fizzie: do you think this guy actually believes what he's saying?
08:09:14 <fizzie> Based on the quotes I've seen, he does sound like a True Believer.
08:09:58 <elliott> fizzie: he maintains his blog as an info page... yeah, must be truly insane
08:12:12 <elliott> <ams> if we are refering to the same tunes...
08:12:13 <elliott> <elliott> ams: Faré tunes, tunes.org TUNES? Expediency and whatnot?
08:12:13 <elliott> <elliott> Dead as a thing that is quite thoroughly dead?
08:12:13 <elliott> <ams> elliott: TUNES is a Useful, Not Expedient, System?
08:12:18 <elliott> fizzie: I think he uses the rms Web Browser.
08:12:22 <elliott> i.e. another machine running a mail daemon and wget.
08:15:37 <fizzie> IMve understood one point of that is to reduce distractions; spending time arguing in IRC sounds rather defeatingous then.
08:16:31 <elliott> fizzie: It distracts from vital Toe-Picking-and-Eating time
08:17:02 <elliott> Provided without context: <ams> can i be your first groupie?
08:19:01 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, but I must quote something more.
08:19:02 <elliott> <ams> "When will TUNES be done?"
08:19:02 <elliott> <ams> prolly something like that ;-)
08:19:02 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: the Hurd has had three releases.
08:19:15 <elliott> Only the Head Zealot could with a straight face defend the Hurd as not being vapourware.
08:20:04 <fizzie> 2011 - year of Hurd on Desktop?
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08:31:52 <elliott> Are there any PEG parsers that automatically rewrite left-recursive rules as not?
08:32:12 <elliott> oh, hmm, apparently ometa actually supports direct left recursion...
08:32:16 <elliott> not linear time complexity but
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08:42:11 <elliott> <elliott> Forth's simplicity in comparison is a testament to that.
08:58:28 <fizzie> "Forms: Also ME testement, ME–15 testment."
08:58:39 <fizzie> (ME in this context being Middle English.)
09:00:49 <elliott> <SunTzu> oh and learm more about fpga's
09:00:50 <elliott> <elliott> the Reduceron is implemented on an FPGA :)
09:00:50 <elliott> <elliott> it's basically purely-functional symbolic hardware
09:00:50 <elliott> <SunTzu> damn, i need to write (;code)
09:00:54 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: may i recommend learning english first.
09:00:56 <elliott> <ams> i find it quite sad that computer programmers often tend to have immensly bad grammar, and vocabulary usage. we who are so precise in communicating with computers can't even use a stupid spoken language properly..
09:04:37 <elliott> Why Chuck Moore doesn't respond to emails: "I won't respond to these emails, except on future postings. 'Cause I don't know who you are, and the the web is full of predators."
09:04:42 <elliott> Chuck Moore -- secretly a child.
09:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: The guy is IRCing from a vt320.
09:15:44 <elliott> fizzie: I am not, in fact, kidding.
09:16:36 <fizzie> Well, it's not a bad terminal.
09:17:04 <fizzie> What does *he* run, anyway? GNU/Linux too?
09:17:20 <elliott> fizzie: I suspect that it is perhaps the only display device he has anywhere near him; he said I would have to convert to a Tektronics vector image to see it.
09:17:33 <elliott> fizzie: (I was trying to paste a particularly complicated kanji to make a point about vocabulary, but obviously he can't see that.)
09:17:42 <elliott> (I was going to use the GIMP to make a nice big png of it.)
09:19:21 <elliott> fizzie: UNFORTUNATELY it seems he has taken it upon himself to learn something about 99% of the languages on earth, so he knew "asztal" when I tried that at first. (Thanks to #esoteric for teaching me the single word of Hungarian I know.)
09:19:37 <elliott> Previously he put me on /ignore for quoting a revised C99 specification when he asked a question about C99.
09:19:43 <elliott> He said I was a liar because C99 didn't come out in 2007.
09:20:02 <elliott> OBVIOUSLY the behaviour of free(NULL) changed since 1999.
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09:22:57 <fizzie> Yes, it must be so that it was the same (do no action) in C89 and in your (I guess it's the "adds the three Technical Corrigendum revisions" one) draft, but briefly different in C99.
09:24:01 <elliott> fizzie: And as a liar, I should be /ignored.
09:24:12 <elliott> Wow. Friendster still exists.
09:24:23 <elliott> Like, "looks different to how it used to look" still exists.
09:24:59 <fizzie> "Over 90% of Friendster's traffic comes from Asia. In Asia, Friendster has more monthly unique visitors than any other social network."
09:25:04 <fizzie> Seems to be a Thing there.
09:25:38 <fizzie> Maybe that's why it looks... like that...
09:25:56 <elliott> I think the homepage thing is randomificatified.
09:27:05 <elliott> fizzie: YOU MUST SCREENSHOT
09:27:10 <elliott> It's like... a rule... god i'm tired
09:27:29 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendster ;; uh, nice formatting fail here (Chrome).
09:28:24 <fizzie> http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/friendster.png is what I got; it's mostly empty thanks to noscript.
09:28:43 <elliott> Me no so good with spelling.
09:28:53 <elliott> So, err, Friendster is all about games, apparently.
09:29:09 <elliott> And fizzie uses slight, greyscale hinting with err... not Clearlooks Classic...
09:29:13 <fizzie> It seems to be a "social gaming destination".
09:29:26 <elliott> Is it just the stock Ubuntu one, pre whenever?
09:29:30 <elliott> (Whenever = when it was redesignified.)
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09:30:02 <fizzie> This is Ubuntu 9.10 at the moment, and I haven't really touched the settings much.
09:30:39 <elliott> fizzie: But you did change font hinting.
09:32:38 <fizzie> There's a mass upgrade to 10.10 scheduled this month, actually.
09:32:58 <fizzie> Also apparently 60 TB of new disk space.
09:33:05 <elliott> <elliott> Veggie oil; it's generated by burning vegetarians.
09:33:20 <elliott> I think it might be time for me to exercise _my_ magical /ignore.
09:33:26 <elliott> But first, to figure out how on earth to respond to that.
09:33:35 <elliott> fizzie: Dude, it's GNU, it's all about freeee looove.
09:33:39 <fizzie> Maybe he's just trying to be friendly.
09:33:53 <elliott> Also I think this is the first time anything has dumbfounded you enough to warrant an ellipsis on a line of its own.
09:34:29 <fizzie> It came out of the proverbial "left field".
09:34:30 <elliott> I think I will just pretend to be afk. :p
09:35:03 <elliott> fizzie: Can we get a, you know, preemptive ban on him in here? :-p
09:35:33 <fizzie> Ask Gregor, he seems to be pre-emptively +o'd and all. (Tut tut, raising the channel temperature like that.)
09:35:56 <elliott> 05.11.24:06:59:34 <fizzie> ...
09:35:56 <elliott> 08.08.16:16:40:40 <fizzie> ...
09:35:56 <elliott> 08.08.21:01:20:05 <fizzie> ...
09:35:56 <elliott> 08.08.22:09:46:59 <fizzie> ...
09:35:56 <elliott> 08.08.27:12:55:59 <fizzie> ...
09:35:57 <elliott> 09.10.13:08:31:26 <fizzie> ...
09:35:59 <elliott> 10.10.06:11:46:53 <fizzie> ...
09:36:01 <elliott> 10.12.17:07:49:31 <fizzie> ...
09:36:03 <elliott> 11.02.24:12:56:21 <fizzie> ...
09:36:25 <Lymia> elliott, respond with "Sorry, I'm /not/ gay."
09:36:27 <Lymia> Alternatively, the opposite.
09:36:38 <elliott> "Sorry, I'm female. And gay."
09:37:00 <elliott> Maybe this is a cunning plot by him to make me shut up.
09:37:23 <elliott> Ooh, he has a FACEBOOK ACCOUNT; that's not very GNU of him.
09:37:29 <elliott> Oh god my #forth tab is now red. I am scared to click.
09:37:38 <elliott> <SunTzu> elliott you is goil?
09:38:15 <elliott> fizzie: please join #forth and say something totally irrelevant but Forth-related. The madness must end!
09:38:33 <elliott> <SunTzu> keep it in your pant, ams
09:38:53 <fizzie> Well, the 09.10.13 was just "..." in the sense of "what I pasted above goes on"; as was the 10.12.17 instance. But the 10.10.06 one was a "real" one, as a reaction to fungot.
09:38:53 <fungot> fizzie: and here i was going to change
09:39:03 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, but you must never change.
09:39:04 <fungot> fizzie: do you like? have you considered making an interactive programming language for scientists, mathematicians and engineers that is also the explicit value of the arguement bpb
09:39:37 <elliott> 12:56:03 <fungot> fizzie: i am your mother.") for online help, try /msg minion cliki? writing a cv in latex is not hard to do,
09:39:38 <fungot> elliott: and then we can all be haf. i don't want
09:39:42 <elliott> fungot sure does amaze its creator.
09:39:43 <fungot> elliott: lunarcrisis pasted " fibonacci" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 6949 ( unnamed in fnord
09:40:00 <fizzie> He doesn't want to be haf.
09:40:13 <elliott> <fizzie> wah wah wah neglect social responsibilities
09:41:32 <fizzie> I'm such an irresponsible guy.
09:41:59 <elliott> fizzie: I bet you go around having SEX with RANDOM PEOPLE ON IRC.
09:42:12 <elliott> The irresponsibility, bounds, it knows none of them.
09:45:55 <elliott> 12:24:03 <fizzie> Quite a lot of names in the nick list compared to the ones that actually appear in the discussion; discuss.
09:45:59 <elliott> fizzie: please ban all lurkers.
09:46:12 <elliott> fizzie: yiyus and pingveno definitely have to go.
09:46:35 <elliott> AFAICT yiyus has never said a single thing
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09:56:03 <elliott> hey fizzie, did you actually sleep
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11:00:55 <elliott> fizzie: The Saga Continues: <ams> SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy
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11:07:32 <nooga> the cup is empty and i'm too lazy to make myself another tea
11:07:38 <nooga> i guess i will have to eat leaves
11:09:39 <elliott> nooga: go write my os for me
11:10:35 <fizzie> Now you inspired me to go look at how Hurd's been doing in the previous decade: "From 2004 onward, various efforts were launched to port the Hurd to more modern microkernels. The L4 microkernel was the original choice in 2004, but progress slowed to a halt. -- Since 2005, most of the developers' time has gone into thinking about Coyotos -- but progress was slow. In 2008, Neal Walfield began working on the Viengoos microkernel as an alternative. In April 2009, S
11:10:35 <fizzie> hapiro announced that work on the Coyotos project had ceased. As of 2011, development on Viengoos is paused due to Walfield lacking time to work on it. In the meantime, others have continued working on the Mach variant of Hurd."
11:10:45 <fizzie> Sounds like it's almost there.
11:10:55 <elliott> fizzie: It still doesn't support USB.
11:11:37 <fizzie> Well, you know, it's the Thunderbolt age now, or so I hear. Maybe they can just skip USB.
11:11:53 <elliott> Yes, I've mentally prepared myself to be all old-farty about that.
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11:12:14 <elliott> It is taking surprisingly little effort.
11:12:16 <fizzie> They have that chaining thing.
11:12:22 <elliott> But hey fizzie, I'm sure you'll have no problem, being basically 40.
11:12:23 <fizzie> "A single Thunderbolt port supports hubs as well as a daisy chain of up to seven Thunderbolt devices; up to two of these devices may be high-resolution displays using DisplayPort."
11:12:26 <fizzie> It's almost like SCSI.
11:12:33 <elliott> fizzie is a person that is almost 40.
11:12:37 <elliott> In fact he is practically 40.
11:12:50 <elliott> My tauntings are ineffective. or more effective than intended.
11:12:58 <elliott> why do you make things so hard for me fizzie :(
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11:13:09 <fizzie> 30 is closer, yes; and both are still off in the same direction.
11:13:28 <elliott> fizzie: You've been getting older at a rate of one year per year; aren't you 28 now?
11:13:55 <fizzie> 28 in about a month, I think.
11:14:16 <elliott> It's OK, just means that you've only got ...
11:14:44 <elliott> How far through 75 are you, if you're 30, as a fraction. X_X
11:14:46 <elliott> My brain, it is the tired.
11:15:01 <elliott> Meanwhilstly, http://www.wolframcdn.com/sponsor-ads/Mathematica-ring-a.png
11:16:33 <elliott> fizzie, prove to me that you're not a robot.
11:16:52 <fizzie> How would you like me to do that?
11:19:15 <fizzie> s" fizzie" s" robot" compare . -1 ok
11:19:30 <elliott> fizzie: That's engineering, I want science.
11:19:32 <elliott> Try proving it in HOL Light.
11:19:41 <elliott> fizzie: Calculate it with Fortran.
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11:20:46 <fizzie> That may take me a moment; my FORTRAN is rusty.
11:21:03 <elliott> But seriously though fizzie, did you sleep at some reasonable time and I just didn't noticed?
11:21:08 <elliott> I feel this is disturbingly possible.
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11:21:24 <fizzie> Yes, I did; from about 02~03am to 09am in our time zone.
11:22:10 <elliott> So, err, fizzie, you know x86, what was I going to ask about x86, um.
11:22:17 <elliott> HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT FORTH, FIZZIE
11:23:30 <fizzie> Not very much, I'm afraid; barely enough to get myself into trouble with it.
11:25:06 <elliott> fizzie: well you see i'm doing this indirect threaded code SHIZZAT -technical term- where
11:25:10 <elliott> ok so a dictionary entry is
11:25:21 <elliott> for a "primitive", data=0, and code just points to the asm
11:25:29 <elliott> data points to a list of pointers into dictionary entries
11:25:50 <elliott> {ptr to @ entry, ptr to LITERAL entry, 1, ptr to + entry, ptr to RETURNOFSOMEKIND entry}
11:25:58 <elliott> fizzie: BUT THE PROBLEM IS, the word that threads these right!
11:26:02 <elliott> it has to keep track of its data pointer
11:26:14 <elliott> all it can push on to the return stack is, you know, an address of its internal code
11:26:24 <elliott> everything else might get clobbered -- and WILL get clobbered, if you call another defined-in-Forth word
11:26:38 <elliott> I think the traditional solution to this is... I don't know, I think the normal method is more "direct"
11:26:48 <elliott> sneaking another value on to the return stack sounds ugly to me
11:26:53 <elliott> fizzie: impart infinite wisdom to tired soul
11:29:42 <elliott> i feel like fizzie is a givings up.
11:32:19 <elliott> nooga: why hath fizzie forsaken me
11:32:29 <fizzie> When it comes to Forth, I'm really more of an user than an implementor; when it comes to ITC all I know is that I've seen a lot of confusing rambling about it.
11:33:46 <elliott> i could do it the sane way maybe
11:34:25 <elliott> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/threaded-code.html mips assembly
11:35:29 <elliott> ; Assumes that the first DWORD of a descriptor points to the intended code to execute.
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11:42:07 <elliott> and i don't need the return stack any more.
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11:45:57 <elliott> ok so, [di] is the main thing.
11:47:05 <elliott> fizzie: is it usual if I end up having no return stack?
11:48:09 <fizzie> It sounds unusual, since quite often people do use r> and >r.
11:49:11 <fizzie> And for nesting those loop counters, maybe.
11:50:12 <elliott> fizzie: yeah i think it's this thing known as umm
11:50:24 <elliott> fizzie: summon impomatic for me
11:50:38 <elliott> he'll know what to do. wait. fuck. what. how does this even.
11:50:47 <fizzie> I'm all out of candles for the pentagram.
11:52:44 <elliott> hey. what if i just do it the ghetto way.
11:52:48 <elliott> direct subroutine threaded code.
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11:56:07 <ais523_> hmm, since when did qwebirc use a fixed-width font?
11:56:26 <ais523_> it used to be proportional sans-serif for me
11:56:45 <elliott> meanwhile, /me is working on his 510 byte forth
11:56:52 <ais523_> also, there's something wrong with the rendering of it, I think the characters are too far apart
11:57:15 <ais523_> dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
11:57:43 <ais523_> oh, I see, the characters don't line up within their bounding box
11:57:49 <elliott> which has caused me to start writing (not on IRC) in ais523_-speak
11:57:51 <ais523_> elliott: you should try it, it's quite relaxing
11:58:02 <elliott> I'm, uhh, realigning my schedule mumble.
11:58:32 <elliott> http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2011/02/formal-comments-and-stylistic-lag.html?showComment=1299755098290#c5941692649704322889 <-- an impressive accidental emulation of ais523_'s style to make the exact opposite point that he'd make
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12:00:41 <elliott> ais523_: um, AFAIK the author's name isn't known; but it's one of the best programming language blogs in existence
12:00:50 <elliott> ais523_: and I am sure I have reacted incredulously to you not noticing me linking to it before
12:00:58 <elliott> so let's just pretend we went through all that again
12:01:13 <ais523_> hmm, if so I don't remember
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12:01:23 <elliott> (It's linked from the Loper OS site, but I don't think that's how I found it.)
12:01:24 <ais523_> and that comment doesn't match my style, it has two semicolons on the same indentation level
12:01:45 <elliott> ais523_: what, can you not have a tri-pronged nesting, where all three parts are equal?
12:02:57 <ais523_> hmm, I think what's up with the font is that this computer's had a different set of fonts installed, for whatever reason
12:03:07 <ais523_> and now it's showing websites like they want to be shown, rather than forcing the font to something sane
12:03:32 <ais523_> (this reminds me of my Epiphany custom stylesheet that forces a background and foreground !important onto everything, with a differently colored foreground for links)
12:04:41 <ais523_> hmm, proggit are talking about the price of Xcode changing from 0 to $4.99, and how bizarre it is for the price to be positive but that low
12:05:22 <ais523_> I'm just trying to figure out their reasoning
12:05:28 <elliott> ais523_: Mac App Store apps are low-priced.
12:05:54 <ais523_> but IDEs don't really seem to fit into the model of impulse purchases
12:06:01 <elliott> ais523_: And since it evidently isn't a _great_ issue for them (they did give it away for free, after all)...
12:06:01 <ais523_> especially not the main IDE for a system
12:06:04 <elliott> No reason to break the mould.
12:06:09 <elliott> I think it's just rabid dogfooding.
12:06:17 <elliott> ais523_: It is a shame, though; Apple have been consistently pushing back programmability. Sure, the same is true of Windows, but on Windows, MinGW etc. are widely-supported and useful.
12:06:34 <elliott> On OS X... well, I think you could probably use a prebuilt binary plus MacPorts to get yourself a gcc toolchain.
12:06:44 <elliott> But it wouldn't work with the Apple extensions and APIs (or the latter at least not very well).
12:07:06 <elliott> This is just moving further away from the Commodore 64, like I said earlier.
12:07:23 <fizzie> Vague "meh" here too; as far as I understand it, iPhone development has been non-free all the time, and it certainly doesn't seem to hurt them commercially.
12:07:44 <elliott> In other notable news today, I have been propositioned by a prominent GNU maintainer over IRC.
12:07:58 <elliott> Err, what was the bug, I've forgotten...
12:08:03 <ais523_> the lead developer of llvm commented saying it was for accounting reasons, on the basis that if you give something away free and then provide updates it plays hell with accounting
12:08:18 <ais523_> whereas it's much easier with an explicit price tag
12:08:18 <elliott> ais523_: I think that was debunked.
12:08:25 <elliott> ais523_: one, that act has been around much longer
12:08:35 <elliott> ais523_: two, they have been giving it away for free
12:08:43 <elliott> and the accounting only applies to _free_ updates to _paid_ products
12:10:00 <ais523_> well, I think the argument was that there's a specific accounting rule for free updates to paid products
12:10:05 <ais523_> but not one for free updates to free products
12:10:21 <ais523_> so if you use the version with the rule in, at least you know what you're supposed to put on the balance sheet
12:11:21 <elliott> ais523_: nothing, that's why it's free!
12:11:47 <ais523_> nah, balance sheets work both ways, money in and money out
12:12:06 <ais523_> you're not directly getting money in, but you still need to allow for the money it costs you to produce the stuff you're giving away
12:12:27 <elliott> fuck accounting. clearly invented by people who had eight hours sleep the previous night.
12:14:39 <elliott> ok, i... think i can write an interpreter word now
12:14:56 <fizzie> The pcworld article makes it sound like the free Xcode download was only for people registered in the iPhone or Mac developer programs, which is non-free. I distinctly remember it being really-free (well, you had to make a free account on the dev site) back around Xcode 2, I don't suppose that's changed? (There was something I couldn't find for free recently, can't recall what it was.)
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12:15:07 <elliott> fizzie: It is really-free.
12:15:13 <elliott> I downloaded it, free, when I bought this.
12:15:23 <elliott> fizzie: It also comes on the installation DVDs.
12:15:28 <elliott> Perhaps that will continue, though it would be queer.
12:15:38 <elliott> (I had no installation DVD, as this is a MacBook Air, which is TOO COOL FOR OPTICAL MEDIA.)
12:16:10 <fizzie> Yes, I remember it came with the DVD too.
12:16:31 <fizzie> "If you are not a member of either the Mac or iOS Developer Program, you may purchase Xcode 4 from the Mac App Store for $4.99. If you are registered as an Apple Developer, you can download Xcode 3 for free at http://developer.apple.com/xcode."
12:16:34 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:17:09 <fizzie> Hmm'kay, so up to 3 it's still free-free (well, with registration); but the 4 is only free download if you're in the Prograsms.
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12:17:46 <elliott> The ams saga is progressing at a super-slow pace.
12:18:02 <elliott> 02:53:35 <ams> SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy
12:18:02 <elliott> 04:05:25 <SunTzu> what is your gender?
12:18:05 <elliott> The exciting last few chapters.
12:19:03 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: does it matter?
12:19:03 <elliott> <ams> and what if i do not have a gender?
12:19:09 <elliott> fizzie: This be some deep philosophical shiat, yo.
12:19:29 <elliott> FACEBOOK REVEALS THAT AMS IS IN FACT A FROG
12:19:31 <elliott> http://en-gb.facebook.com/people/Alfred-M-Szmidt/1318123348
12:20:10 <elliott> <SunTzu> I am conducting a survey of real and supposed genders online. this is a follow-up on a survey done during the mid-90s/
12:20:10 <elliott> <SunTzu> anyone here using fasm?
12:20:15 <elliott> It's going to get so much more boring if ams doesn't chime in soon.
12:20:29 <elliott> <SunTzu> you dont speak for anyone but yourself.
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12:20:42 <elliott> I could never have relations with anyone who used gas.
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12:22:50 <elliott> 12:19:49 <ams> nixness: don't use amazon, use your local library
12:22:57 <elliott> fizzie: he does the "boycott amazon" thing too
12:23:00 <elliott> this guy is a literal clone of rms
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12:43:31 <elliott> fizzie, x86 expert: if I want like
12:43:42 <elliott> pointing to the end of the dictionary
12:43:46 <elliott> I'd have to use it like [[foo]] right?
12:43:50 <elliott> because foo is the pointer
12:44:30 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that's a x86 thing, double-indirection.
12:46:01 <elliott> fizzie: and how many hours of sleep did YOU have last night>
12:46:09 <elliott> it's just ugly cuz it eats a register :(
12:47:21 <elliott> Z E R O ( 0 DEC, 0 HEX, 0 OCT )
12:47:34 <fizzie> Yes, I've been briefed.
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12:49:38 <quintopia> i see you've slept as much as I have in the last 24
12:49:44 <elliott> fizzie: But have you been DEBRIEFED? -- and that's how the opening to the Worst Porn Ever goes.
12:49:46 <quintopia> but i finished that damned IPC project
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13:00:43 <elliott> 13:21:04 <tusho> <ais523> okoing?
13:00:44 <elliott> 13:21:07 <tusho> <oklofok> ais523: okokokokokokokokoko
13:00:44 <elliott> 13:21:10 <tusho> <ais523> why would anyone do that?
13:02:03 <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:04 <tusho> <ais523> okoing?
13:02:07 <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:07 <tusho> <oklofok> ais523: okokokokokokokokoko
13:02:12 <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:10 <tusho> <ais523> why would anyone do that?
13:02:27 <elliott> <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:04 <tusho> <ais523> okoing?
13:02:27 <elliott> <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:07 <tusho> <oklofok> ais523: okokokokokokokokoko
13:02:27 <elliott> <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:10 <tusho> <ais523> why would anyone do that?
13:03:32 <elliott> 13:49:48 * ais523 manoeuvers through a door standing on one leg and balancing a laptop on the other
13:04:02 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:15:33 <elliott> this log is quite a fun, first fax is all "I'M NOT SURE I BELIEVE THE UNIVERSALLY-ACCEPTED PROOF OF THE HALTING PROBLEM", then pikhq is all "WELL-FOUNDED RECURSION? YOU'RE MAKING THAT UP. HOW CAN YOU EVEN ENFORCE THAT. AND WHAT KIND OF TYPE SYSTEM DOESN'T ALLOW SKI"
13:15:48 <elliott> 19:30:10 <pikhq> madbrain: My point is that that's bloody hard without making something that's completely and utterly useless.
13:15:49 <elliott> 19:30:23 <quantumEd> oh you are one of these pragmatists
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14:04:51 <Gregor> augur: Donate to the Gregoran Somalian Relief Fund!
14:05:44 <Gregor> (AKA the Help Gregor Get the libc.so Domain Name Fund)
14:07:52 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:11:31 <augur> Gregor: Donate to the Augur's 25th Birthday Fund!
14:13:56 <Gregor> augur: How about you donate $50 to the Help Gregor Get the libc.so Domain Name Fund, and I'll donate $25 to the Augur's 25th Birthday Fund :P
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14:18:58 <elliott> Was about to congratulate you on your economic skill
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14:20:50 <Sgeo> http://ultimateedition.info/Ultimate_Edition_2.8/107themes.png
14:21:04 <Sgeo> They... combined an OSX look and a Aero look?
14:22:21 <coppro> looks pretty good actually
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14:22:31 <Sgeo> I was... upset by it at first, but.. yeah
14:22:37 <Sgeo> It does look kind of nic
14:22:54 <Sgeo> nice even. I don't think you have to get a domain name or anything to use it
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14:36:04 <elliott> but first I have to figure out a suitably inappropriate language to write it in
14:37:33 <elliott> ais523: now _that_ sounds painful
14:37:51 <ais523> ADVENT was written in Fortran, it was one of the worst possible languages for it
14:37:57 <ais523> but at the time, the only real alternative would have been COBOL
14:38:03 <ais523> which is just as inappropriate
14:38:05 <elliott> which would have been perfect
14:38:14 <ais523> elliott: well, definitely, given the langs available at the time
14:38:29 <ais523> but I'm not sure if LISP would have been widespread in terms of people knowing and using it
14:38:32 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +b lisp!*@ai.mit.edu.
14:38:32 <elliott> text adventure game == symbolic manipulation (parsing) + list manipulation (inventory, objects, map)
14:38:38 <ais523> it's always been a sort of language for hipster academics
14:38:45 <ais523> I don't think it's ever been mainstream
14:39:09 <elliott> ais523: "Crowther met and married Pat Crowther while at MIT."
14:39:21 <elliott> ais523: so he was probably at MIT in the 60s
14:39:32 <elliott> ais523: good chance he knew of LISP
14:39:34 <Sgeo> "Google Chrome can't display the webpage because your computer isn't connected to the Internet.
14:39:46 <elliott> ais523: Don Woods was at Stanford, I'd be very surprised if he didn't when he extended the game, but of course by then it was too lat
14:40:01 <ais523> Sgeo: are you sure you're connected to the Internet? you could try contacting someone over IRC to check
14:40:32 <ais523> elliott: well, it's known he knew SNOBOL (due to writing INTERCAL-72 in it), and it would have been a pretty appropriate language too
14:40:41 <elliott> I didn't see his line, clearly his internet tubes are broken.
14:40:58 <elliott> ais523: ah, SNOBOL's possibly the only language _more_ suitable
14:41:23 <ais523> Sgeo: elliott's topic about facepalming just got thrown into sharp relief for me
14:41:34 <Sgeo> ais523, I'm not allowed to joke?
14:42:01 <ais523> not if it's even more obtuse than Vorpal's jokes
14:42:06 <elliott> Sgeo: you do realise that pretending to be stupid for the purpose of humour all the time will eventually cause you to be indistinguishable and therefore identical to a stupid person?
14:42:38 <ais523> when I'm pretending to be stupid for the purpose of humour, I generally make my statements pretty obviously self-contradictory to make sure
14:44:09 <Sgeo> Need to go to school, bye
14:44:30 <fizzie> FOTRAN and networking sounds a bit of an odd fit. I guess with the C interop stuff you could just use the BSD sockets API, but still.
14:44:46 <ais523> fizzie: elliott did ask for an inappropriate language
14:44:53 <ais523> and I was trying to pick one that was genuinely useful, just not for that purpose
14:45:11 <elliott> i need a big (two hundred megabyte) list of bytestrings that i can select randomly from
14:45:16 <elliott> that are read from files that i lightly string-process
14:45:22 <elliott> that would not be fun in Forth
14:45:32 <ais523> nor in most of the other langs suggested
14:45:39 <elliott> maybe I'll use C++, the most esoteric of languages!
14:45:49 <ais523> although I imagine it'd be relatively simple in Ursala, actually
14:45:53 <ais523> that is, compared to the rest of Ursala
14:46:12 <elliott> can ursala even do networking?
14:47:19 <ais523> it likely has a library, or at least FFI, for it
14:47:27 <ais523> worst case you could just loop the program through netcat
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14:50:37 <elliott> if J had networking it'd be a good choice :)
14:50:43 <elliott> but it's probably complicated.
14:52:48 <elliott> ais523: how does overlambda fare?
14:57:43 <ais523> I'm busy at work, thus everything is stalled temporarily
14:58:13 <elliott> ais523: I mean, at the problem of optbot
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15:03:11 <ais523> oh, currently badly because I still haven't decided how to do I/O
15:03:28 <ais523> it's such an ugly blemish on the pure maths of just calculating things
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15:07:17 <ais523> wow, I just typoed to a one-character web address (r.com) and found it a 404
15:07:25 <ais523> who'd have a one-character .com, and not put a web page there?
15:08:39 <ais523> gah, someone on Reddit claims that my argument that that rule 110 thing isn't a TCness proof is flawed because real computers don't have infinite memory either
15:08:42 <ais523> and is more upvoted than me
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15:10:19 <Sgeo> So... I missed my bus
15:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, quick, http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g0d5g/breaking_news_html5css3_is_turing_complete/c1k03fg?context=3
15:11:23 <Sgeo> "Programming languages can be in the abstract, if they don't insist on infinite memory"
15:11:28 <elliott> hmm, was gonna go all "jeez PH you are always so harsh", but then the guy really was stupid
15:11:41 <elliott> i think i'm just going to have to upvote every comment ais523 makes on principle, though
15:12:03 <elliott> ais523: you should have added "AND I WON THE WOLFRAM PRIZE SO YOU SHOULD ALL LISTEN TO MY EXPERTISE"; instant karma
15:12:54 * elliott reads Wolfram blab about what software he uses.
15:13:03 <elliott> my guess: Mathematica, Mathematica, Mathematica, all running on a kernel made out of Mathematica.
15:14:04 <Sgeo> Ooh, mathematica kernel?
15:15:28 <elliott> "What would be your dream setup?
15:15:28 <elliott> Mathematica + Wolfram|Alpha everywhere!"
15:17:02 <Sgeo> I'm tired. I opened SyllableOS page and ReactOS page, looked at the Syllable page, and was ... interested in ReactOS's new BeOS-based design
15:17:48 <Sgeo> I need sleep maybe
15:24:09 <elliott> I have no idea what you are talking about.
15:24:28 <elliott> I have no idea what you are talking about.
15:24:41 <Sgeo> I only remember due to a r/circlejerk post that was rather... mean
15:24:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, uh, question: Seriously?
15:25:08 <elliott> If yes: Stay classy, Gawker.
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15:25:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Source plz.
15:25:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://twitter.com/Adrianchen/status/45054116405325824
15:25:54 <elliott> "Have a feeling lucidending is about to have a Second Coming on @reddit... Maybe this is the start of our first e-religion?"
15:26:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That sounds like a ``joke''.
15:26:11 <elliott> You may be unfamiliar with the ``term''.
15:26:33 <Sgeo> elliott, read the rest of the tweets
15:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I do have problems with detecting jokes which give no indication of being such, yes.
15:27:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have a confession to make: I am secretly President of the World.
15:27:21 <elliott> Unqualified, blunt extravagant claim that makes no sense == joke.
15:27:36 <Sgeo> "I don't think anyone was hurt by lucidreaming. It just made Reddit's hardheaded skepticism seem absurd and selective."
15:27:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:27:54 <Sgeo> ...lucidreaming?
15:28:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, it doesn't.
15:28:16 <Sgeo> I have seen some suggestion that it was a hoax
15:28:37 <elliott> Hello oerjan, fill the topic with things that aren't so tediously stupid as to agitate my incredibly sleep-deprived self.
15:29:43 <Sgeo> http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2011/03/post_45.html
15:29:50 <elliott> Show me where he is acting entirely seriously about it.
15:30:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FFS, *saying that he was behind an IAmA which had no verification is not absurd*.
15:31:26 <Sgeo> He does seriously consider it to be a major hoax, at least.
15:31:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: please do not irritate me with your failure to detect jokingness in offhand Twitter posts when I've had this little sleep.
15:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, then please get some sleep rather than just saying I'm wrong and being confrontational.
15:32:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: ZYGOHISTOMORPHIC PREPROMORPHISMS | LATIMERIA CHALUMNAE | CLASSIFICATION OF FINITE SIMPLE GROUPS | BULLET CLUSTER | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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15:33:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, "@owengood haha yeah, I did some research on that today and came to the same conclusion. Reddit is so full of shit."
15:34:05 <Sgeo> I think Adrianchen considers it to be a hoax proving Reddit's gullibility in some circumstances, but may have been joking about being the one who started it.
15:36:38 <Sgeo> I have a Scumbag Ola Bini to make
15:38:43 <oerjan> what did poor Ola do to be called a scumbag
15:39:06 <Sgeo> Seph is supposed to have immutable objects, but mutable lexical variables
15:39:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:39:26 <Sgeo> Closures will close over those mutable lexical variables and allow them to be mutated...
15:40:03 <Sgeo> foo: #(n, #(i, n += i)),
15:40:16 <Sgeo> Um, I don't know what that last , is
15:40:22 <Sgeo> but bar = foo(1)
15:40:36 <Sgeo> Those will mutate n
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15:42:14 <Sgeo> Although hmm, just because it's abusable doesn't make it evil. Maybe.
15:42:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:42:41 <oerjan> so basically Ola Bini is an evil hybrid of me, Vorpal and Gregor.
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15:43:32 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.06: 32k to Cambodia, 8x64k+4x32k+16k to China, 8k+3x4k+2k+1k to Japan, 4k to Taiwan, 1k to India, /48 to Indonesia, /32 to Australia.
15:43:37 <Sgeo> Mind you, I don't mind the mutable lexical variables, just closures giving write access to those as opposed to read-only access
15:44:12 <oerjan> Gregor: the source of his hat is obvious!
15:44:13 <Sgeo> Anyways, school: Take two
15:44:19 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: -b lisp!*@ai.mit.edu.
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15:44:38 <Sgeo> BeholdMyGlory is a dialect of Lisp.
15:44:38 <Gregor> Honey's still banned though.
15:44:58 <Sgeo> School: Take two: For real
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15:57:16 <oerjan> <elliott> it's menial busywork, it's not like projects where I can architecture myself way out of space and then realise it'll be an unholy bitch to do
15:57:30 <oerjan> THEY WON'T RECOGNISE JAPANESE ONCE YOU'RE FINISHED WITH IT
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16:09:21 <elliott> oerjan: i like the idea that i can butcher japanese to the point when i've learned a complete language that nobody else in the world has
16:09:46 <olsner> you're going to fork japanese?
16:14:50 <ais523> I was in a meeting, and saw I'd been nickpinged but didn't respond to it because someone else was looking at my scren
16:15:36 <elliott> I have a dream, where we all live in a world where IRCing at arbitrary points is socially acceptable!
16:15:41 <ais523> (I didn't see who'd done it as I didn't have IRC focused)
16:18:26 <elliott> wow, IE6 is "only" 3,482 days old
16:22:00 <ais523> heh, just noticed on reddit: hg fetch == git pull; git fetch == hg pull
16:22:10 <ais523> well, as equivalent as you can be for two fundamentally different DVCSes
16:22:30 <elliott> ais523: fundamentally different?
16:22:33 <elliott> git and hg are almost identical :)
16:22:43 <elliott> well, as identical as they come
16:25:11 <elliott> bleh, all languages suck at being amusingly imperfect for a certain task
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16:34:28 <ais523> hmm, The Old New Thing posted the topmost window story again, this time ending with a list of things that programs might to do be really topmost
16:34:36 <ais523> and the comments have come up with more and more ridiculous ideas
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16:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, get some sleep if it means you're going to be like this.
16:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I do, in fact, have things to do other than sit on IRC, strange as it may seem.
16:47:30 <elliott> well, no, i am always right
16:47:54 <ais523> wow, I just got what looks like probably a 419 scam, that's so confused I can't even follow what it's actually trying to do
16:48:10 <ais523> although I like the way they typoed "scan copy" as "scam copy" later
16:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm fairly sure you've been wrong but I am not so petty as to keep a list for easy reference.
16:48:59 <ais523> I think they're offering to send me a Mastercard with $10.000,000.00, MILLION DOLLARS
16:49:17 <ais523> as long as I pay a $650 shipping charge via Western Union
16:49:21 <elliott> ais523: that's a... good amount of millions!
16:49:37 <ais523> obviously, that's a massively large shipping charge for one credit card, they're clearly trying to rip me off
16:49:52 <ais523> also, the card apparently ends with ten zeros
16:50:03 <ais523> which is suspicious in its own right
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16:56:04 <oklopol> elliott has been wrong many times
16:56:34 <oklopol> you have been wrong AT LEAST 0 times.
17:00:52 <oklopol> i suggest you say something stupid a few times to cover your tracks
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17:09:53 <oklopol> do you directly see "if G is an undirected graph, G^c is the graph where (u, v) is an edge iff it's not an edge in G. show that for all undirected G, either G or G^c is connected"
17:13:02 <oklopol> do you directly see the solution
17:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, wait, I was missing something, but I think I can extend what I had.
17:14:11 <elliott> oklopol: lol ur homework on irc
17:14:40 <oklopol> yeah this was today's homework
17:15:08 <oklopol> i mean we presented the solutions today
17:15:35 <oklopol> this one takes about 5 seconds if you've played with graphs a lot, i'm just wondering if it's noobie friendly
17:15:47 <oklopol> well i'm sure it took me at least 20 seconds
17:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not exactly a noobie to graph theory, but I've not exactly covered it in depth.
17:17:25 <oklopol> have you done a lot of problems, or have you read some stuff on wp?
17:18:34 <oklopol> not really, i was hoping anyone could do this
17:18:48 <oklopol> there's this guy who's wondering if he should take math or cs
17:19:05 <oklopol> and i'm trying to find something fun for him to prove so he'll learn to luv the mathies :(
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17:33:58 <elliott> geometry should be outlawed
17:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, we know you've been scarred by GCSE "geometry".
17:34:47 <elliott> well because topology is what they call geometry that isn't shit and here you insert the troll face unicode codepoint
17:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh also I actually came up with a decent name for my computer.
17:39:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT IS IT
17:40:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Considering adrienchen referred to lucidending as "lucidreaming" in his second Tweet, the probability of it actually being him has crawled down to -24.
17:40:15 <elliott> oklopol: my friend at oxford is doing topology and he's such a bitch about it, but that's because he's stupid, unlike you
17:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, but if I get another one I can call it "dyson" and I will have a SYSTEMATIC NAMING SCHEME
17:40:25 <elliott> (he's also the guy who's stupid about japanese, basically a total life failure)
17:40:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dyson has to be a Mac: a bunch of marketing claiming innovation for shit that's been done for decades.
17:41:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He isn't, I just like shitting all over his reputation on IRC and then pasting the aftermath to him.
17:42:01 <elliott> I get the feeling it quite upsets him, but, haha, he can't do anything about it. Except all the things he can do about it.
17:42:29 <elliott> or just like not talking to me
17:42:35 <elliott> he still hasn't ventured into this chan because he's like a total noob
17:42:43 <elliott> would you like to flame him, i could arrange for him to come in now
17:43:17 <oklopol> i thought people at oxford only research the hip topics
17:45:09 <oklopol> well i don't know, that algebraic topology stuff?
17:45:28 <elliott> oklopol: he apparently "reefuses", i think he might be illiterate
17:45:39 <cheater-> Suppose in each G and G^c there are exactly two classes of points which create connected subgraphs, A1, A2, B1, B2. By intersecting the partitions (finding common sub-partitions of the set of points of G) we will get {Cij = Ai n Bj}, a partition of the set of points of G. For a fixed i, Cij are all pairwise connected in G, and for a fixed j, in G^c. For two certain pairs (k, l) != (m, n) there is a set Ckl. In Ckl no points from Bl are G^
17:45:39 <cheater-> c-connected to points in Bn, this means then that all points from Ckl c Ak are G-connected to points from Cin for all i, specifically to points of Cmn. This means that Cmn c Am is empty.
17:45:44 <oklopol> and what do you mean by "being a bitch"
17:46:06 <elliott> all these questions cannot be explained by science.
17:46:20 <elliott> mostly he just mentions he's doing topology work to me and i'm like DUDE stop bothering me with all this TRIVIAL BULLSHIT, that's my job
17:46:44 <oklopol> cheater-: did you get a contradiction?
17:46:56 <cheater-> oklopol: DID i get a contradiction?
17:47:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: since the holy hand of oerjan decreed it so.
17:47:14 <elliott> he is our comforting guide.
17:47:26 <cheater-> oklopol: what does it tell you that all Cmn are empty?
17:48:49 <cheater-> notice how i went from having a finite amount of sets in the beginning to having an arbitrary later on without changing my assumptions
17:49:22 <oklopol> not that it looked wrong anyway
17:49:28 <cheater-> it's just cause normally people see an example with an arbitrary amount of elements and they forget to check what happens if you have 1 element or 2 elements
17:49:41 <cheater-> so i decided to point out that possibility specifically
17:50:14 <cheater-> no, it's still correct because it's just a proof for the basic situation where you have two disconnected subgraphs each
17:50:36 <cheater-> but change the first sentence to A1, ..., AN, B1, ..., BM and you then have the general situation
17:52:34 <oklopol> why is Cmn empty as a conclusion?
17:53:00 <cheater-> because otherwise Cmn and Ckl are G-connected and G^c-connected
17:53:28 <cheater-> this can only take place if those sets are empty
17:54:00 <cheater-> remember, it's either connected in G XOR G^c
17:54:04 <cheater-> never both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
17:54:14 <cheater-> or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111
17:54:56 <elliott> oklopol does not know the secrets of the unvierses
17:56:42 <oklopol> well maybe i'll start asking questions, since i can't see what you mean
17:56:44 <oklopol> "For a fixed i, Cij are all pairwise connected in G"
17:57:29 <oklopol> you mean, for every j != j', two vertices v, v' in Cij and Cij' respectively, there's a... path? between v and v'
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18:06:10 <oklopol> anyhow i'll give a solution just for fun: let G be disconnected. then consider any two connected components G_1 and G_2 of G. then for all v \in G_1 and w \in G_2, there is an edge (v, w) in G^c. this means: if you take u and v in G, if they are in different components, there's an edge between them. if they are in the same component H, then take w \notin H, and you'll have the path u, w, v
18:07:54 <cheater-> type it again if there were any errors
18:08:10 <oklopol> you can choose w because G is disconnected, and the edge (v, w) must be in G^c because otherwise v and w are in the same component.
18:08:20 <oklopol> well just two obvious remarks
18:08:42 <cheater-> and is that it for your proof?
18:08:47 <oklopol> let G be disconnected. then consider any two connected components G_1 != G_2 of G. then for all v \in G_1 and w \in G_2, there is an edge (v, w) in G^c. this means: if you take u and v in G, if they are in different components, there's an edge between them. if they are in the same component H, then take w \notin H, and you'll have the path u, w, v
18:09:02 <oklopol> cheater-: yes, that's it, that shows G^c is connected
18:09:09 <oklopol> i give an explicit path between any u and v
18:10:42 <oklopol> you assume that both G and G^c are disconnected, and find a contradiction, but i don't really know how to interpret some of your claims, probably because i'm slow, but anyway.
18:11:41 <cheater-> you haven't proven that G connected => G^c disconnected
18:11:56 <oklopol> well no, but that's not true anyway
18:12:02 <oklopol> you just have to prove one of them is
18:12:14 <oklopol> well it's obviously not true
18:12:21 <cheater-> maybe G connected and G^c connected
18:12:54 <oklopol> well that's a valid point i guess. whatever it means
18:13:19 <cheater-> i thought you were trying to prove G connected <=> G^c disconnected
18:13:37 <cheater-> but you're only trying to prove G connected or G^c connected.
18:13:56 <oklopol> it's so obvious the xor is not true that it didn't occur to me
18:14:01 <oklopol> nah, maybe it's not that obvious
18:14:16 <oklopol> but it's true: consider a path of length 3, u-v-w-z
18:15:14 <cheater-> just take a square with an antenna for G, and G^c is connected too
18:15:35 <cheater-> square with an antenna is a five point graph which contains a square, and additionally has a point which is connected to one of the square's vertices.
18:15:36 <oklopol> or that, but mine is the smallest example
18:16:17 <oklopol> (that's not why i chose it, but at least it's a good rationalization)
18:17:16 <oklopol> so if your proof works for the xor thing, maybe you have some detail wrong in there and i don't have to continue trying to guess what you mean
18:18:37 <cheater-> it proves you can't have G and G^c disconnected at the same time.
18:19:15 <cheater-> have you read about the khan academy oklopol
18:20:12 <cheater-> it's some sort of funny school where they do homework at school and lectures individually at home
18:20:24 <cheater-> every time i read someone talking about it i think
18:20:31 <cheater-> KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!!!!!!!!!!!! academy
18:20:58 <cheater-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54
18:22:03 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I don't actually have ChanServ access, so I'm only an op as long as my connection remains stable :P
18:22:14 <cheater-> and today it's a double feature of beyonce and eminem
18:29:35 -!- elliott has changed nick to optbot.
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18:36:47 <elliott> Hey Gregor, guess what simple operation Python makes low-level and hard
18:38:37 <elliott> Reading a line from a socket. Although it seems there's some newish API to do that automatically.
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18:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, <oklopol> do you directly see "if G is an undirected graph, G^c is the graph where (u, v) is an edge iff it's not an edge in G. show that for all undirected G, either G or G^c is connected"
18:49:12 <elliott> Productivity is a myth, or something.
18:50:49 <cpressey> sos. at pycon. surrounded by pythonistas. it's creepy. send reinforcements kthx. sos
18:51:29 <elliott> Mistake 2: Go to PyCon, do not prepare for pythonistas.
18:51:59 <elliott> I like this new SOS-over-IRC, though.
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18:53:19 <elliott> :optbot!~optbot@91.105.95.39 JOIN :#estoteric
18:53:19 <elliott> :asimov.freenode.net MODE #estoteric +ns
18:53:19 <elliott> :asimov.freenode.net 353 optbot @ #estoteric :@optbot
18:53:19 <elliott> :asimov.freenode.net 366 optbot #estoteric :End of /NAMES list.
18:53:22 <elliott> look at my coding skill. look at it.
18:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo has left in fear of the sheer difficulty of the trivial problem.
18:53:57 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: he solved it!
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18:55:36 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | but you can *create* data structures.
18:55:42 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | <Ilari> But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs). <-- DV?.
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19:01:56 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | SyntaxError: invalid syntax.
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19:03:04 <elliott> oh, i actually filtered out highlights and things...
19:03:22 -!- optbot has joined.
19:03:22 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Perhaps somebody would be converted..
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19:06:39 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | hmm, /me thinks.
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19:08:58 <cpressey> "You had me at Py_INCREF(Py_None);..."
19:09:12 <elliott> Getting a reference to None?
19:09:22 <elliott> Does this imply that None could theoretically be garbage-collected?
19:09:31 <elliott> The philosophical implications are astounding.
19:10:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think cpressey is pioneering the Emergency Write-Only IRC Link.
19:11:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This is because he wrote the emergency client in Python, which has no convenient socket readline function, as I have recently discussed.
19:11:18 <elliott> I suggest we send in five USB sticks containing different versions of GHC.
19:11:24 <elliott> And by god, let's hope of them gets to him.
19:11:33 <elliott> Plus a prerelease CD of @ of course.
19:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> He's a Pythonista; I could send him in to infiltrate the ranks and carry supplies.
19:12:15 <elliott> You think he would carry GHC?
19:12:27 <elliott> He'd take one look at it and say, "this has punctuation and things. That's not Pythonic.
19:12:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They can SMELL it.
19:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, pretend it was something else by encrypting it?
19:13:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Their sense of smell can break RSA encryption.
19:14:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm. Write one program to transform arbitrary files into vaguely-valid Python programs.
19:14:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU CANNOT DEFEAT THE PYTHONISTA'S NOSE FOR PYTHONICITY.
19:15:06 <cpressey> Yes, Py_None is a Python object like any other. When you assign a variable to it, you have to increment its usage count.
19:15:31 <elliott> cpressey: Please don't tell me Py_None is allocated on the heap.
19:15:38 <elliott> The fact that small integers are is bad enough (with a CACHE for the first 256).
19:15:41 <cpressey> I have no idea & I'm not going to check.
19:15:53 <elliott> It would be awesome if, like, True and False were garbage-collectable.
19:16:43 <elliott> Maybe Python's garbage collector is Turing-complete.
19:28:22 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: oh, i forgot about those. yeah. i should totally give a lightning talk on "Implementing numerical types between Real and Complex"
19:30:31 <cpressey> cheater-: I dunno but the Python docs suggest they went to great lengths to allow it.
19:30:57 <cheater-> cpressey: oh, that's what you mean
19:31:18 <cpressey> i don't like the fact that i knew that you had to pay for XCode 4 before Phantom_Hoover mentioned it.
19:31:26 <cpressey> i have no business with such information.
19:31:49 <cheater-> i'm successful at forgetting things i shouldn't know.
19:31:49 <cpressey> i'm implementing LNUSP in Java during the breaks to keep myself sane
19:32:17 <cheater-> cpressey: what about implementing a reactive asynchronous programming framework in haskell?
19:32:20 <elliott> cpressey: implementing things in java.
19:32:24 <elliott> that's how i stay sane too!
19:32:56 <elliott> Implement Java in Sierpiński numbers.
19:33:04 <elliott> That sounds far more practical, realistic.
19:33:09 <cheater-> Implement sierpiński in java numbers.
19:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (Note: I have no idea if either addition or multiplication are closed.)
19:33:27 <cheater-> i'm the only person who has ń on their keyboard without sticky keys.
19:37:59 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: trivially not closed under addition
19:38:52 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpinski_number talking about this?
19:39:58 <oklopol> hmm right i suppose that might not contain all of R :)
19:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the set of points in the Sierpiński gasket embedded into C.
19:41:47 <oklopol> most certainly not if it contains two straight lines
19:42:04 <oklopol> i don't really know how you do the embedding
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20:01:41 <cheater-> oklolol: how come you're studying graphs right now?
20:01:59 <oklopol> er i'm just taking a few courses at random
20:02:23 <oklopol> no, i'm not doing any geometry
20:02:42 <cheater-> then what course has this come up in?
20:03:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:03:46 <oklopol> i'm taking graph theory, cellular automata, group theory (representation stuff) and complexity theory atm
20:04:13 <oklopol> graph theory is geometry? i suppose they both have lines and points.
20:04:24 <elliott> graph theory = topology = geometry = peano arithmetic
20:04:26 <cheater-> graph theory is very much geometry.
20:04:43 <cpressey> how do you represent an angle in... never mind
20:04:46 <oklopol> well it's a really simple course on ct, we're just doing the basic stuff like showing things np-complete
20:05:14 <elliott> cpressey: asking questions. that's the first mistake.
20:05:24 <oklopol> i don't really see what the connections between graph theory and geometry are, but maybe there are some
20:05:49 <elliott> oklopol: the connections are elaborately laid out in the theory of "cheater is a stupids"
20:06:26 <oklopol> i have a lot of benefit of the doubt to spare.
20:06:30 <cheater-> oklopol: well there are several connections such as simplex geometry, topology, etc
20:06:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, read logs
20:06:40 <elliott> i'm all out of benefit of the doubt, can i have some oklopol?
20:07:01 <cheater-> iddiott, i would appreciate it if you actually learnt some of what you're yapping about, as opposed to copypasting reddit.
20:07:01 <oklopol> simplices give a sort of connection. i don't know anything about them.
20:07:02 <Sgeo> Why did you paste that at me?
20:07:13 <Sgeo> elliott, to see what I missed, in terms of things directed at me or about me
20:07:46 <oklopol> what do you do with them except implement groups?
20:07:48 <cheater-> oklopol: mainly because they bring a lot of geometry stuff down to finite numbers
20:07:56 <Sgeo> Also, I don't know graph theory
20:08:09 <oklopol> you can implement fun stuff as fundamental groups of simplicial complexes right?
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20:08:24 <cheater-> well the euler characteristic is one powerful tool that's easy to use with a simplicial complex
20:08:57 <cheater-> it's a number that is the same for the same kinds of shapes
20:09:17 <oerjan> ha ha oklopol doesn't know what euler characteristic is
20:09:24 * oerjan will now be murdered by elliott
20:09:34 <oklopol> i certainly don't know the term no
20:09:42 <elliott> it's about how you oil things
20:10:00 <oklopol> so it's an invariant of some sort?
20:10:02 <cheater-> also quite often if you get a theorem that works on a simplicial complex you can generalize it to anything
20:10:42 <cpressey> and if you get one that doesn't work, you can generalize that to anything, too.
20:11:03 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't complain about things written iin 1991 being boringly old
20:11:36 <cheater-> now for any orientable surface you get a graph which is that orientable surface but deflated
20:11:49 <elliott> everything is everything else (proof follows by induction0
20:11:57 <oklopol> i don't even know the definition of an orientable surface
20:12:08 <cheater-> well think for example of "genus" surfaces
20:12:21 <cheater-> sphere, donut, donut with two holes, ...
20:12:39 <elliott> an orientable surface is one that can't pronounce Rs
20:13:12 <Sgeo> I don't remember why I gave up on Mercury
20:13:17 <elliott> <elliott> an orientable surface is one that can't pronounce Rs
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20:13:34 <cheater-> Sgeo: it makes you psychotic even in very low amounts?
20:13:41 <oerjan> elliott: somehow i couldn't read your line correctly
20:13:44 <cheater-> Sgeo: it gives you kidney failure?
20:13:51 <oerjan> must be a temporary disorientation
20:14:26 <Sgeo> If "IRC?" is not blatantly only pretending to be dumb, how is what cheater said...
20:15:03 <elliott> i need an autoresponder script.
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20:15:23 <oerjan> elliott: that was not a troll, i almost made such a pun myself
20:15:37 <elliott> oerjan: I never said that line in particular was a troll.
20:16:25 <oklopol> yeah, just everything he says
20:17:26 <cheater-> oerjan: now if you deflate a surface and get the graph, they have the same fundamental group
20:17:41 <oklopol> what's the fundamental group of a graph?
20:17:57 <oerjan> cheater-: you don't need to explain algebraic topology to me
20:18:23 <cheater-> sorry, i was just thinking "that guy starting with o"
20:18:40 <cheater-> oklopol: have oerjan explain it to you :D
20:18:54 <oklopol> i don't need it explained, i need it defined
20:19:55 <cheater-> oklopol: seriously though, it's the same as in a continuous space
20:20:03 <cheater-> it's just the set of different loops.
20:21:11 <cheater-> just imagine you embed your graph in R^n, and imagine the fundamental group there
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20:22:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> i don't really know how you do the embedding
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20:23:06 <cheater-> you take some points somewhere randomly
20:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> You put the triangle with one side on the [0,1] interval and the point in the positive imaginary direction.
20:24:03 <oklopol> so what graph could you get this way for instance?
20:24:27 <oklopol> what graph has Z^2 as its fundamental group
20:25:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (I did actually come up with a possible practical use for this, but it was even more crazy.)
20:25:27 <oklopol> you get a free group from that
20:25:43 <oerjan> oklopol: ok that may be tricky
20:25:44 <cheater-> oh right you were answering the later question
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20:26:18 <oerjan> i was thinking abelianized fundamental group (aka H_1 homology)
20:26:49 <elliott> truly the most inspired thing i've ever said.
20:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, "abelianised" is such a cool word I am going to drop it into every conversation I can.
20:26:56 <cheater-> well the torus surface has Z^2
20:27:09 <cheater-> how do you get a graph this way.. hmm
20:27:12 <elliott> "what did you do to my dog?"
20:27:18 <elliott> "its organs are everywhere."
20:27:20 <oerjan> cheater-: erm not as fundamental group, no
20:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone give me a name for a piece of software to call "osmium".
20:27:42 <cheater-> oerjan: surface, not the donut with the inside
20:27:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uh. Osmium?
20:27:59 <cheater-> or... wait, what is the fundamental group there?
20:28:20 <oerjan> cheater-: still not. the two directions you can circle don't commute
20:28:30 <oklopol> the fundamental group of a doughnut is Z^2
20:28:54 <oklopol> and that's impossible to implement as the fundamental group of a graph i think
20:29:00 <oerjan> oklopol: erm reference
20:29:03 <cheater-> The fundamental group of the torus is just the direct product of the fundamental group of the circle with itself:
20:29:04 <cheater-> \pi_1(\mathbb{T}^2) = \pi_1(S^1) \times \pi_1(S^1) \cong \mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}.
20:29:09 <oklopol> oerjan: i just heard the definition, i don't have one
20:29:25 <cheater-> oklopol: yes, i was talking about the donut, not the torus surface
20:29:50 <elliott> <oerjan> wait wtf i'm wrong
20:30:04 <oerjan> "More generally, the fundamental group of any graph G is a free group."
20:30:12 <oklopol> sorry about being unclear, i'm of course talking about the outside, because the inside is just the circle, topologically
20:30:12 <oerjan> elliott: actually i'm not quite sure
20:30:22 <elliott> oerjan: you're probably right :-))))
20:30:26 <oklopol> well fundamental groupally
20:30:30 <Sgeo> I should learn emacs
20:30:38 <Sgeo> Just about every fun language I read about has an emacs mode
20:30:46 <Sgeo> Erm, not that I don't know the basics of emacs
20:30:53 <Sgeo> I just need to force myself to use it
20:31:26 <cheater-> oklopol: yes, but the circle can get reduced to a graph too
20:31:32 <oklopol> i mean if you have a path that's a circle, then obviously that path is just... well, that path
20:31:34 <elliott> oklopol and oerjan mathsing, Sgeo making us all palm our faces
20:31:35 <cheater-> (finite number of elements = easier for counting)
20:31:54 <oklopol> cheater-: yeah but that's a trivial case
20:32:03 <oklopol> even your silly definition of a fundamental group works there
20:32:13 <oklopol> so i didn't take it as a counterexample of it not being silly.
20:32:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Notepad%2B%2B_screenshot2.png
20:32:38 <Sgeo> Emacs works well for Clojure, as far as I can tell. It probably works well for most languages someone wrote a major mode for.
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20:32:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I've changed my mind, that's the best tab completion thing ever.
20:33:12 <oklopol> cheater-: well because it just gives you free groups
20:33:46 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: That was some PHP code, and explode is a common PHP function ...
20:33:53 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, please tell me you've at least heard of Clojure, even if you're morally opposed...
20:34:25 <oerjan> ok i was definitely wrong
20:34:28 <oerjan> "Intuitively speaking, this means that a closed path that circles the torus' "hole" (say, a circle that traces out a particular latitude) and then circles the torus' "body" (say, a circle that traces out a particular longitude) can be deformed to a path that circles the body and then the hole."
20:34:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what's so horrible about Clojure?
20:34:32 <elliott> People code Lisp dialects in non-Emacs?
20:34:40 <Sgeo> Besides being on the JVM
20:34:42 <elliott> That sounds like Welcome to Pain City, Pain Population: You.
20:34:57 <Sgeo> elliott, what about DrRacket?
20:35:06 <oklopol> oerjan: what were you wrong about?
20:35:07 <fizzie> Vim's Scheme indentation mode used to suck incredible amounts of suck. It's better nowadays.
20:35:36 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it's written in vimscript. I have a feeling even writing suck in that is a chore.
20:35:42 <oklopol> no, fizzie is stating a statistic: people considered it sucky before
20:35:56 <Sgeo> So one or two people in some IRC channel don't know elementary CS math
20:36:05 <Sgeo> Big whoop. Unless it was Rick
20:36:15 <oerjan> oklopol: about the torus giving a free group.
20:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, at least one of them was directly involved in the language.
20:36:34 <oklopol> did you say the torus gives you a free group?
20:36:45 <oklopol> as its topological fundamental group?
20:37:19 <cheater-> no torus gives you Z or Z^2 depending on which torus you mean (full or hollow)
20:38:03 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/osmiumpricesusdollars.html
20:38:08 <elliott> Gregor: For context, not a single person in #clojure would state outright that O(log_32 n) = O(log n).
20:38:30 <elliott> Gregor: A majority argued that they were the same in theory but not in practice, and a small minority argued that it was just harmless semantics.
20:38:41 <elliott> Gregor: SO ONE OR TWO PEOPLE IN SOME IRC CHANNEL DON'T KNOW ELEMENTARY CS MATH HURP DERP
20:38:48 <cheater-> elliott: probably because this notation is illegal.
20:39:09 <cheater-> elliott: but that just might be coming up after you get out of high school.
20:39:34 <oklopol> oh right elliott is just a little kid xD
20:39:44 <oklopol> cheater-: are you a mathematician
20:40:22 <oklopol> elliott: well after he pointed out that you are younger than him, i immediately understood why order notation is illegal
20:40:23 <Sgeo> cheater-, let's just say that even I know what the notation is.
20:40:33 <elliott> oklopol: has he used the hilarious name "idiott" yet
20:40:51 <cheater-> Sgeo: there's no such thing as O(x) = O(y) in mathematics.
20:40:56 <oklopol> he clearly knows more math than me and oerjan put together
20:41:23 <Sgeo> cheater-, so how would I describe that O(2) and O(1) are the same thing?
20:41:26 <oklopol> cheater-: O(f) is the set of functions g such that there exist n and c such that g(x) <= cf(x) for all x >= n?
20:42:10 <Sgeo> oklopol, you'll have to repeat that to me later.
20:42:19 <Sgeo> I'm not entirely certain of the exact definition.
20:42:25 <Sgeo> Although I guess you just said it.
20:42:31 <Sgeo> I'll need to stare at it more
20:42:35 <oklopol> (i should hope so, at least)
20:42:43 <cheater-> oklopol: the problem is that traditionally using equality on the object O(f) is to be interpreted as an \in sign.
20:42:52 <oklopol> cheater-: erm, that's just notation
20:43:08 <Sgeo> He is arguing about notation. I think.
20:43:33 <cheater-> oklopol: sure, so following your train of thought 8=2 is valid mathematics
20:43:38 <oklopol> notation that often makes stuff easier to state in number theory and that's completely useless in cs
20:44:01 <elliott> hurp derp pedantry is mathematics
20:44:07 <oklopol> cheater-: the difference is everyone knows what the O notation means
20:44:10 <elliott> that's why all math notation is unambiguous
20:44:23 <Gregor> 8=2 is true in the group of R modulo 6 :P
20:44:29 * Sgeo hits someone with pi(20)
20:44:29 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, it is even so that Vim nowadays has a "LISP indentation" mode built-in (well, when compiled with +lispindent). It used to be scripted and amazingly slow; several seconds of waiting when you pressed enter inside a dozen-line expression.
20:44:44 <cheater-> Gregor: in which case it'd be 8 == 2 :p
20:45:20 <elliott> 8==2? sorry what's this ==
20:45:38 <elliott> i have never seen it before.
20:45:41 <elliott> that's not real mathematics.
20:46:00 <elliott> ==, though, def. not mathematics
20:46:01 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You're right, it's a set. I suck at pedantry :(
20:47:36 <cheater-> i'm afraid your fancy character set isn't compatible with the rest of the internet
20:48:02 <elliott> Yeah, UTF-8, who uses that.
20:48:06 <elliott> Certainly not anyone on IRC.
20:48:12 <elliott> fizzie: you ever used UTF-8?
20:48:39 <fizzie> elliott: Isn't that the thing they put in strawberries to keep the shine?
20:49:13 <elliott> It's when your still-alive dinner has an orgy with eight others.
20:49:48 -!- cheater00 has joined.
20:50:52 <Sgeo> "C++ is crime against humanity, and its creator is the programming equivalent of Saddam Hussein."
20:51:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the fact that this gold tracking site also tracks everything in the platinum group.
20:52:02 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:54:33 <Sgeo> yes, although this URI has t-a-w in it
20:54:36 <Sgeo> http://t-a-w.blogspot.com/2007/02/right-to-criticize-programming.html
20:54:50 <elliott> Yes, I suppose taw.blogspot.com was taken.
20:56:07 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
21:02:30 <elliott> pikhq: ams is more insane than previously believed.
21:03:10 <elliott> pikhq: I present a three-line snippet from #forth today, provided with all the context it had originally, i.e. none whatsoever:
21:03:13 <elliott> <elliott> Veggie oil; it's generated by burning vegetarians.
21:03:40 <pikhq> That's not ams's insanity, just his sense of humor.
21:03:42 <oerjan> I SEE NOTHING INSANE ABOUT THAT
21:03:49 <pikhq> At least, I *strongly* hope so.
21:04:07 <pikhq> elliott: Not especially.
21:04:10 <elliott> oerjan: Oh come on, the 40 year old paedophile thing is so cliché.
21:04:26 <pikhq> Few people have come ahead betting against humans being insane.
21:04:42 <elliott> 01:37:32 <SunTzu> elliott you is goil?
21:04:42 <elliott> 01:37:47 <elliott> Not that I'm aware of.
21:04:42 <elliott> 01:37:52 <SunTzu> just chking
21:04:42 <elliott> 01:38:16 <SunTzu> keep it in your pant, ams
21:04:45 <elliott> 02:53:35 <ams> SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy
21:04:47 <elliott> 04:05:25 <SunTzu> what is your gender?
21:04:49 <elliott> 04:18:30 <ams> SunTzu: does it matter?
21:04:51 <elliott> 04:18:40 <ams> and what if i do not have a gender?
21:04:53 <elliott> pikhq: FURTHER ADVENTURES INTO CRAZY
21:05:10 <elliott> your kind of ugly; lets have s'ex anyway
21:05:14 <elliott> GRAMMAR WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN
21:05:20 <pikhq> elliott: It's easier to just call him an asshat.
21:05:26 <pikhq> It's demonstrable.
21:05:51 <elliott> pikhq: Before that he was arguing for the "GNU/Linux" term with abject sincerity, and then *honestly strongly implied that the Hurd was not vapourware*.
21:05:58 <elliott> Even from the GNU System maintainer, I mean... seriously.
21:06:18 <pikhq> Well, they do have *something* to show for their decades of effort.
21:06:19 <elliott> 00:13:38 <SunTzu> yea, that was spam and the one prev was dehtml scrubbed clean, so i dont know what it said. no significant content
21:06:19 <elliott> 00:13:54 <ams> "When will TUNES be done?"
21:06:20 <elliott> 00:13:59 <ams> prolly something like that ;-)
21:06:20 <elliott> 00:14:02 <SunTzu> like Hurd, never
21:06:20 <elliott> 00:14:17 <ams> SunTzu: the Hurd has had three releases.
21:06:21 <elliott> THREE VERY SERIOUS RELEASES
21:06:26 <pikhq> So I guess technically it isn't vapourware.
21:06:27 <elliott> Supports everything except USB, and everything else.
21:06:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:06:41 <pikhq> Just an insanely slow development process.
21:06:50 <pikhq> elliott: Well, yeah. It has a Linux 2.2 driver stack.
21:07:37 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/g165z/what_is_the_name_of_that_saxophone_song_thats/ best reddit thread ever
21:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> http://blog.fogus.me/2011/03/09/recursion-is-a-low-level-operation/
21:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> (Actually, his point is perfectly sane, but he uses Clojure so I hate him.)
21:08:56 <pikhq> I wouldn't necessarily call it "low-level", but it certainly should be avoided in functional languages when possible.
21:09:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh come on, fogus is a good guy.
21:09:12 <elliott> And plenty of sane people use Cojure, it's just an honest mistake and whatnot.
21:09:31 <elliott> Even the Arcane Sentiment guy has good things to say about it; it's everyone involved with it who _isn't_ the language creator who's the problem.
21:09:43 <elliott> Seriously though, your hate gland is even more hyperactive than mine.
21:09:50 <pikhq> Build your functions out of other clearly understandable functions that happen to be implemented recursively. This makes shit not mind-bending.
21:10:04 <elliott> pikhq: Tail recursion is iteration, which is low-level.
21:10:11 <elliott> Non-tail recursion is higher-level.
21:10:16 <elliott> But it's still not natural.
21:10:28 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, tail recursion is definitely a low-level.
21:10:36 <Gregor> Tail recursion: All the flavor of recursion, but with no more fat than iteration!
21:10:54 <pikhq> Gregor: I can't believe it's not imperative! :P
21:11:06 <elliott> ANYWAY. Tomorrow I am buying RTK1 and maybe 3. Today, it turns out, that there is a level of sleep deprivation, at which it is impossible to use amazon.co.uk.
21:12:34 -!- treederwright has joined.
21:13:08 -!- ab5tract has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:13:22 <elliott> treederwright: http://esolangs.org/ has more on our mystical order.
21:13:25 <quintopia> what? am i being asked if i'm a girl? i don't understand!
21:13:26 <Gregor> No, it's a channel, which is to say a particular partition of the communication through a network which are all tagged with a relevant channel identifier. It has no physical substance, and is as such not a room.
21:13:31 <elliott> Isn't that right, brother oerjan.
21:13:40 <elliott> O! The Godly One Gregor speaketh towards us.
21:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, you should totally be stocking up on osmium rather than gold.
21:13:55 <pikhq> Gregor speaketh of the mystical Multiplexing. Hallowed be the concept.
21:13:58 * oerjan ponders the mystical wisdom of letting elliott being our welcoming committee
21:13:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: i've already cornered the market in osmium
21:14:07 <elliott> AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
21:14:10 <elliott> AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
21:14:18 <elliott> oerjan: how's that goat doing, any blood left in it yet
21:14:24 <elliott> treederwright: BAHAHAHA! Of course!
21:14:32 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: none. how much more is it worth than platinum?
21:14:36 <pikhq> treederwright: Doubtful; this is esoteric in the sense of esoteric programming languages, not in the sense of esotericism.
21:14:46 <elliott> pikhq: You speaketh foul of our intents.
21:14:49 * Gregor looks at the @ next to his name and twiddles his thumbs.
21:14:51 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, its cost per gram is about half that of gold.
21:15:00 <elliott> pikhq: Has't teou a malice in'st thou intention?
21:15:23 <pikhq> elliott: I haþ neiþer malice nor ſlander in mine intents.
21:15:26 <Phantom_Hoover> *But* it looks awesome, is the second-hardest and the densest metal, and can be used for chemical warfare in a pinch.
21:15:29 -!- cal153 has quit.
21:15:41 <elliott> pikhq: Habetis igitur verbum herba.
21:15:46 <Gregor> Why yes, yes you are :P
21:15:53 <elliott> This is for Rosicrucian only.
21:16:02 <pikhq> elliott: Do you even know what that *is*?
21:16:03 <elliott> Please - ignore the misleaders.
21:16:05 <oerjan> treederwright: sadly we've never found a better irc channel to point people like you to
21:16:10 <elliott> They are intended only to filter out the True Believers.
21:16:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: :P
21:16:34 <elliott> pentagrams have four sides
21:16:34 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Twiddle.
21:16:40 <Twiddle> How is this nick not taken!
21:16:47 <elliott> `addquote <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
21:16:53 <oklopol> is pentagram the circle of 5?
21:17:01 <elliott> that sounds like a charlie sheen quote
21:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> treederwright, what're the dimensions of the matrix of solidity?
21:17:08 <elliott> ENTER MY OCTAGON AND FACE MY MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
21:17:10 <Twiddle> elliott: Hallo thar is no HackEgo and I can't bring it back up right now :P
21:17:36 <Twiddle> Twiddle: My home router went kashits and I can't ssh in.
21:17:51 <oklopol> treederwright: the determinant of my matrix is 0 :<
21:17:57 <oklopol> the WORST kind of solidity
21:18:01 <pikhq> Is the matrix of solidity square? Is it invertible?
21:18:08 <pikhq> Apparently oklopol's matrix is not invertible.
21:18:08 <Twiddle> I WILL BE YOUR EIGENVECTOR
21:18:10 -!- treederwright has left (?).
21:18:16 <elliott> oklopol: I hear there's new treatments nowadays for that kind of stuff.
21:18:22 <elliott> noooooo, the one person who could save us
21:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> WE WILL NEVER FIND THE INVERSE OF OUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
21:18:45 <pikhq> elliott: Perhaps all our matrices are submatrices of the matrix of solidity.
21:19:01 -!- elliott has set topic: The Residence of the Entrapments of the Matrix of Solidity | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
21:19:02 <quintopia> oklopol: are you living in a post-singularity world?
21:19:16 -!- elliott has set topic: The Residency of the Entrapments of the Matrix of Solidity | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
21:19:41 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: platinum is a metal. it doesn't have an ass.
21:20:02 <pikhq> quintopia: Certain samples of platinum possess an ass.
21:20:09 <pikhq> And iridium can kick the ass of such samples.
21:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, um, but, yeah, surely if you're stocking up on precious metals for your crazy survivalist plans you should at least use one with *some* practical application once civilisation collapses.
21:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> There won't exactly be much demand for catalytic converters.
21:21:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Iron!
21:21:28 <pikhq> And get skill at smithing.
21:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well yeah, but iridium is basically like diamond in Minecraft.
21:22:18 <Phantom_Hoover> It's really hard and it's very resistant to corrosion.
21:22:39 <elliott> I dream of a day where every physical object is explained in terms of Minecraft.
21:22:46 <elliott> Including activities such as "mining".
21:22:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: the precious metals are only to be used as portable trade items. the most important feature such a metal can have is rarity.
21:23:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're arguing with a guy who prioritises trade of meaningless goods over survival in a post-apocalyptic scenario.
21:23:22 <pikhq> Yeah, iridium makes gold look like candy.
21:23:25 <elliott> There is no reasoning to take place.
21:23:55 <pikhq> They mine three tons every year. Total.
21:24:02 <elliott> quintopia: wasn't that the thing you were saying.
21:24:07 <elliott> it might not have been you.
21:24:50 <quintopia> elliott: ah, no. in a post-apocalyptic scenario a portable trade good is not exactly top priority. highest priority is food shelter clean water guns and ammunition :P
21:25:00 <elliott> i'd like a ring made out of iridium or something.
21:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, yes, and iridium is actually *useful* there.
21:25:14 -!- rodgort has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:25:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I want one made of osmium because it has an awesome colour.
21:25:26 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: where can i buy iridium coins *now*?
21:25:33 <elliott> quintopia: Why guns, perfect time to start an anarcho-syndicalist commune :P
21:25:44 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Except then I found out that its oxide is really toxic and forms from air. But then I found somewhere else saying that it was perfectly safe as a solid.
21:25:50 <quintopia> elliott: to defend the anarcho-socialist commune from people with guns
21:26:04 <elliott> quintopia: but what if EVERYONE starts their own commune of one
21:26:27 <quintopia> elliott: then i'd be in my own commune of one
21:26:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Osmium_cluster.jpg
21:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, http://www.advent-rm.com/materials/Iridium.htm
21:26:39 <quintopia> (i think you could have worked this out on your own)
21:26:40 -!- variable has joined.
21:26:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately go for osmium because it's also pretty hard and unreactive enough.
21:27:04 <elliott> so what's the rarest thing that's rare
21:27:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the rarest elements are all ultra-radioactive and hence worthless.
21:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Nah, you can only get a few atoms in a lump of uranium ore.
21:28:16 <elliott> what's the rarest thing that isn't super-radioactive :-P
21:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, more specifically, http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/lines.aspx?criteria=material&materialid=20
21:29:06 <pikhq> There's 3 elements rarer than iridium on Earth.
21:29:15 <pikhq> Rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium.
21:29:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...click a product line number
21:29:27 <elliott> http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/items.aspx?criteria=line&linenumber=IR5248
21:29:35 <elliott> oh 0.5 isn't much there's more
21:29:44 <pikhq> (exempting highly unstable elements)
21:29:58 <pikhq> quintopia: Dude, *gold* isn't even that tradable.
21:30:08 <pikhq> Y'know what's tradable? Canned goods.
21:30:14 <elliott> http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/items.aspx?criteria=line&linenumber=IR1619
21:30:16 <elliott> last one is most expensive
21:30:24 <quintopia> you know what goes bad in a year? canned goods.
21:30:47 <pikhq> If everything collapses, people aren't going to *give a shit* about shiny.
21:30:51 <quintopia> (not always a year. but they lose nutritional value after at least a few)
21:31:23 <quintopia> pikhq: ah, it's not that it's shiny. it's that it is portable and has a long-established value association.
21:31:34 <quintopia> sure, tools and useful goods are best for trade
21:31:34 -!- rodgort has joined.
21:31:41 <quintopia> but what if you don't have anything that person needs
21:31:59 <pikhq> It also possesses no innate use when you're fighting for your life.
21:32:32 <quintopia> i think you're looking too far ahead
21:33:08 <pikhq> I think you're being far too optimistic in your assessment of a worst-case scenario.
21:33:11 <quintopia> it's most valuable during the apocalypse. the transition period immediately after fiat money becomes valueless but stores still have wares to sell
21:33:22 <elliott> you think stores will still be operated post-apocalypse?
21:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm looking as far as "I want some of this, screw the apocalypse."
21:33:47 <quintopia> the ones that have guns and valuable stuff for survival will
21:33:59 <quintopia> but later stores will happen again
21:34:03 <pikhq> Hah. Hah. No. They'll be fucked.
21:34:12 <elliott> where's the book of shitty unrealistic libertarian fantasies you took this from :)
21:34:20 <elliott> stores will happen again...sure
21:34:32 <pikhq> If fiat money goes away, expect looting.
21:34:33 <elliott> but day 3 after the apocalypse, nobody's gonna be running that store.
21:34:43 <elliott> come on. revolutions cause major looting.
21:34:57 <pikhq> elliott: Heck, just a sufficiently bad natural disaster does it.
21:35:03 <quintopia> explain to me exactly how someone with a warehouse full of guns and enough people to defend it couldn't profit immensely by continuing to operate after economic collapse?
21:35:13 <pikhq> quintopia: "Enough people to defend it".
21:35:22 <elliott> if everyone had guns everyone would live in liberty and peace and equality
21:35:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Vs. a market price of $400 per troy ounce which comes to...
21:35:31 <pikhq> You're assuming the store owner has a small army.
21:35:33 <elliott> the core of every libertarian nutjob fantasy
21:35:47 <quintopia> pikhq: yes. and when you have a warehouse filled with guns and most people have knives, that's probably not very many.
21:35:52 <pikhq> And will continue to do so when the average person has *no currency*.
21:36:02 <elliott> WAREHOUSES FILLED WITH GUNS
21:36:20 <oklopol> does this apocalypse involve the destruction of mathematics?
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21:36:21 <pikhq> quintopia: Oh, please, people will loot Walmart first.
21:36:28 <elliott> all graphs will be destroyed.
21:36:41 <elliott> oklopol: you get to make them up all over again
21:36:54 <quintopia> pikhq: sure. that'll get five people 20 rifles a piece. there will still be demand.
21:36:57 <oklopol> brought a little tear in my eye
21:37:08 <pikhq> quintopia: And no currency.
21:37:10 <elliott> oklopol: cause the apocalypse and it will all be yours
21:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, I mean which market does it cost that on?
21:37:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THE EXPENSIVE SHIT MARKET
21:37:46 <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
21:37:46 <elliott> The Frugal Buyers of Expensive Shit Market.
21:37:48 <pikhq> quintopia: And the owner of all these guns isn't going to care about your shiny rocks.
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21:37:53 <elliott> pikhq: Guns guns guns guns guns guns guns.
21:37:59 <pikhq> quintopia: Food, sure. But shiny rocks?
21:38:04 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
21:38:04 <pikhq> What's that good for, slingshot ammo?
21:38:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:38:41 <quintopia> pikhq: maybe. maybe not. at the very least, it will be worth recognizably more than slips of cotton.
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21:39:01 <pikhq> quintopia: Okay, true, it will possess more worth than fiat currency.
21:39:01 <Twiddle> Remember that the apocalypse is May 21, so you've got to work fast here too.
21:39:09 <elliott> "I was not Lucidending... OR WAS I? (No, seriously, I wasn't.) http://gaw.kr/fchwHH" --Adrian Shit
21:39:12 <pikhq> Though I doubt worth *much* more.
21:39:17 <oklopol> oerjan: how about a graph that's complete in EVERY topology?
21:39:17 <elliott> "Why the Internet Thinks I Faked Having Cancer on a Message Board"
21:39:23 <elliott> This article is going to be so, so classy.
21:39:28 <elliott> So classy I can't help but read it.
21:39:31 <pikhq> Still, the fiat currency would, in this hypothetical, be devoid of any use except burning and novelty.
21:39:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i'll leave you with this thought, have to go now tho
21:39:56 <elliott> "But for the rest, here is the story of how a dumb late-night joke tweet led one of the Internet's largest message boards to believe I am a horrible person." You are, but ha ha, I was rigt, Phantom_Hoover was wrong, I'm so tired, fuidjklvck
21:39:57 <pikhq> Or, in the case of metal coins, smelting.
21:40:07 <elliott> SMELT EVERYTHING IN A FURNACE WITH COAL
21:40:31 <quintopia> pikhq: name something else that is small, useful post-apocalypse, highly valuable, and does not lose value over time.
21:40:41 -!- jix has joined.
21:40:47 <elliott> "Also, what terminally ill person would spend even one of his last hours answering questions on a message board? (And why Reddit, when 4chan would have come up way more interesting questions?)"
21:40:51 <elliott> Yes. 4chan ask interesting questions.
21:41:00 <elliott> This is a factual thing that is known to be a true factual fact which is true.
21:41:24 <oklopol> shit has no value and thus doesn't lose any, is useful for getting rid off and can be small. it's not highly valuable though.
21:41:37 <elliott> "There are plenty of reasons for this differential, but chief among them is Reddit's female problem. The board, with its ridiculous "Men's Rights" forum, often displays what one twitter user calls "loony anti-woman rage." Lucidending was a dude."
21:41:38 <oklopol> but you can't have all the answers
21:41:46 <elliott> BECAUSE ANYBODY CAN CREATE A SUBREDDIT, REDDIT IS THE SEXIST
21:41:48 <pikhq> quintopia: Name to me anything that is small, *useful post-apocalypse*, highly valuable, and does not lose value over time.
21:42:08 <quintopia> pikhq: yes. i added that because you insisted that any valuable trade good be useful
21:42:17 <quintopia> therefore you must say what such thing exists
21:42:51 <oklopol> you can throw shit at your enemy?
21:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, you know about how crazy people are; what on earth is that $400/ozt figure coming from?
21:43:08 <pikhq> quintopia: Sorry, but most commodities tend to lose value over time. But *oh well*, because commodities can be obtained later when shit stables out.
21:43:48 <pikhq> quintopia: And the simple fact is, if all hell breaks loose, mere hypothetical value is the furthest thing from people's minds.
21:44:01 <pikhq> Direct, immediate use is all that's relevant.
21:44:05 <oklopol> yeah people will start checking all the graphs are intact
21:44:07 <quintopia> then you can't name anything better for a long-lasting stockpile than gold? (long-lasting meaning i won't immediately start consuming it)
21:44:18 <oklopol> they won't have time for silly things like that
21:44:33 <pikhq> Heck, you'd probably have better luck storing some water.
21:44:33 <quintopia> pikhq: all hell doesn't last very long. people start asserting control a lot quicker than you would expect
21:44:43 <pikhq> *Especially* if you're in, say, Arizona.
21:45:11 <oklopol> yeah once you've checked a few small graphs, you can get the rest by induction
21:45:14 <quintopia> pikhq: i would start consuming water immediately. because, you know, it goes bad and stuff.
21:45:17 <oklopol> and then you can try to put out the fires
21:45:20 -!- Leonidas has joined.
21:45:25 <oklopol> and then onto groups prolly
21:46:03 <oklopol> those free ones are so damn fickle
21:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Hang on, that thing has iridium pegged at a lower price than rhodium.
21:46:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, rhodium production is over 8 times that of iridium.
21:47:05 <oklopol> are rodeos built out of rhodium
21:47:30 <oklopol> maybe i can learn more tomorrow ->
21:48:09 <pikhq> Funny, I'm consuming water that's been around for billions of years.
21:48:30 <oerjan> oklopol: what do complete graphs have to do with topologies
21:50:12 <elliott> tiuhduiwhuiuihhudhuidhnffhdhrhfhghfhjdndjkj
21:50:17 <elliott> inveny lNGUAG wher is word
21:50:24 <quintopia> pikhq: you're drinking water that's recently been purified.
21:50:52 <oklopol> <- never too late for topology!
21:50:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:51:01 <quintopia> water filters might be a good commodity to have. afaik, they don't go bad until you start using them.
21:51:15 <Leonidas> Phantom_Hoover: NEVER PLAYED IT, JUST GOD OF WAAAAAAARRRRR!
21:51:29 <oerjan> oklopol: the usual meaning of complete graph does not involve any afaik
21:52:01 <oklopol> oerjan: who know's though?
21:52:02 <Leonidas> osmium? i thought there was some indie-game by that name.
21:52:21 <elliott> INDIE GAMES? O U MEAN LIEK MINDKRAFT
21:52:42 * oerjan swats some sense into oklopol -----###
21:52:55 <Leonidas> MINDKRAFT Y U HAVE NO FANCY GRAPHICS?
21:53:11 <oklopol> i think i have to go now, no matter HOW topology.
21:53:12 <elliott> Leonidas: TOTES PREEMPTIVELY BANNED FROM #ESOTERIC-MINECRAFT
21:54:44 <Leonidas> can I like, adopt 10 kittens and dress them in hipster clothes and make nice youtube videos to wash away my sins?
21:55:20 <oerjan> Leonidas: you can do everything up to the word "make"
21:55:28 <oerjan> then it starts getting tricky
21:56:12 <elliott> Leonidas: you'd need to craft a youtube video first
21:56:15 <oerjan> because the latter part is obviously incompatible with the former
21:56:46 <Leonidas> to craft a youtube video, I'll first have to craft the universe
21:56:57 <elliott> Minecraft needs apple pie.
21:57:05 <elliott> You have to craft a universe, enter it, and then make apple pie.
21:57:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's an abstract algebraic object. it has no volume, duh, you can't say how loud it is!
21:57:31 * elliott enters the Mandatory Swatting Booth
21:57:45 * oerjan performs the Mandatory Swatting -----###
21:59:49 <elliott> oerjan: HE'S THE PERFECT SIZE
21:59:57 <elliott> so oerjan, what timezone are you in now, when are you going to sleep :D
22:00:23 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:00:29 -!- jix has joined.
22:00:48 -!- elliott has changed nick to optbot.
22:01:04 -!- optbot has changed nick to elliott.
22:01:21 <elliott> oerjan: it's important for meterological purposes
22:01:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus#Geometry
22:01:35 <elliott> oerjan: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS FIRST
22:02:51 <elliott> oerjan: no i mean your 25-hour day timezone
22:03:01 <elliott> when are you going to sleep/when did you get up, so i can calculate the true UTC offset >:D
22:04:06 <oerjan> elliott: in about [REDACTED] hours
22:04:31 <elliott> oerjan: WHAT IS SO SECRET ABOUT THAT. I _will_ use IRC logs if necessary
22:04:51 <oerjan> incidentally øst is norwegian for east
22:05:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool, that actually means you could get enough for a ring for a reasonable price.
22:05:40 <elliott> oerjan: do you just want to make it a "challenge"
22:06:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Seriously? Sweet.
22:06:56 <elliott> which is that, iridum or osmium
22:07:13 <elliott> Man, I'm not even hallucinating.
22:07:17 <elliott> Sleep-deprivation like this, I want to hallucinate.
22:07:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: >_> HOW ABOUT THAT IRIDIUM EY
22:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover> And that's in pellet form; actually making it ring-shaped would be much harder.
22:07:48 <elliott> it's only been 30-31 hours
22:07:57 <elliott> i just wanna see pink giraffes and stuff :(
22:08:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Melting it is not a easy task, given that it actually melts at a lower temperature than iron boils.
22:09:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tips for inducing hallucinations after 30-31 hours of no sleep plz
22:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> And it reacts with oxygen quite readily, complicating things even more.
22:09:23 <elliott> that might work. don't think there's any lying around though.
22:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> My parents have a friend who knows about metalworking; perhaps I should ask her.
22:10:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's the boring way
22:10:29 <elliott> learn all there is to know about metalworking for yourself instea
22:11:13 <pikhq> 7x10x4 for my new and improvéd minecart station.
22:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Osmium is probably not amenable to standard techniques.
22:11:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It's really hard, has a really high melting point and reacts readily.
22:12:22 <elliott> hmm, how heavy would a ring of osmimsimsimsimum be?
22:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (This is assuming my finger radius though, which is almost certainly greater than yours.)
22:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, 1.15g for a torus 2cm in diameter and 1mm in tube diameter.
22:13:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, find out how wide your finger is and work it out.
22:13:50 -!- EgoBot has joined.
22:13:56 <elliott> rolling my eeeeyes arouuuuund
22:14:03 <elliott> somehow i think that more than lack of seelp is required to hallucainte
22:14:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: way too tired.
22:14:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wide i guess
22:15:23 <Twiddle> Why didn't HackEgo reconnect?
22:15:44 <elliott> Twiddle: because it doesn't love you any more
22:16:10 <Twiddle> elliott: That's OK, I only used it for sex.
22:17:25 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:17:35 -!- EgoBot has joined.
22:18:10 -!- HackEgo has joined.
22:19:03 <elliott> `addquote <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:19:11 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:22:02 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 34K Mar 10 23:04 quotes
22:22:28 <elliott> `addquote <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:22:29 <HackEgo> 330) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:22:32 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:22:34 <HackEgo> 331) <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:22:41 <elliott> Twiddle: really i want to quote the entire treederwright exchange, but :)
22:22:49 <elliott> matrix of solidity is good enough.
22:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, looks like osmium tetroxide production is sufficient even in the solid that a ring would be inadvisable.
22:24:10 <HackEgo> <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:24:20 <elliott> oerjan: how does that even
22:24:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TRY IT FOR SCIENCE
22:24:42 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's///g' quotes
22:24:48 <HackEgo> <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:25:10 <elliott> oerjan: what you tryin'a accomplish :D
22:25:27 <elliott> impressive that it replaced ALL the empty strings in the quotes file with empty strings in finite time
22:25:29 <oerjan> elliott: removing the color codes?
22:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, iridium would be doable, but probably more expensibe.
22:25:57 <oerjan> elliott: i am seeing lots of inverted H's
22:26:18 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:26:21 <HackEgo> 331) <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:27:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm still disappointed that osmium is too reactive to use.
22:28:00 <oerjan> obviously it's great for osmosis
22:28:43 <elliott> so oerjan, how many hours of your day do you NOT spend on IRC, I ASK PURELY OUT OF _CURIOSITY_
22:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, iridium is off-white, though, rather than blue-grey.
22:29:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Iridium2.jpg
22:29:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try off-sexy.
22:29:35 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Iridium-2.jpg ;; less so, but still pretty neat.
22:30:24 <elliott> THEN OERJAN WON'T BE ABLE TO TURN DOWN MY PROPOSAL
22:32:33 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Iridium2.jpg ;; this in ring form i would totally love, but i fear that under different lighting it would look less impressive.
22:32:36 <elliott> still, it'll always be shiny
22:32:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Ruthenium_a_half_bar.jpg
22:32:46 <elliott> guess what my ring's made out of
22:33:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: RUTHENIUM/IRIDIUM HYBRID
22:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as expensive so you lose the bragging rights, though.
22:33:41 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ununoctium i want a ring made out of this
22:33:53 <elliott> ooh ooh wait, can i have a hydrogen ring
22:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> RINGS MADE OUT OF PLATINUM GROUP METALS ARE THE ONLY ONES
22:34:58 <elliott> Bismuth is the only metal.
22:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Bismuth crystals are cool but that wouldn't carry over to a ring, I suspect.
22:35:59 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: now now, a sodium ring would also be hot stuff
22:36:01 <elliott> Safe to say that I with others have retrieved a copy of the International Journal of Bismuth from a public library.
22:36:20 <elliott> (After being misheard for the far-more-reasonable-subject-for-a-journal "business".)
22:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> 1g of ruthenium is a bit more expensive, but it's also a larger volume than osmium.
22:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, as entertaining as silly rings are, I really ought to sleep.
22:40:06 -!- optbot has joined.
22:40:06 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | test.
22:40:17 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:26 -!- optbot has joined.
22:40:26 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | hello: test.
22:40:32 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:37 <elliott> return re.sub(r'^[a-zA-Z[\]\\`_^{|}][a-zA-Z0-9[\]\\`_^{|}]+:\s+', '', line)
22:40:40 <elliott> CLEARLY MY REGEXP IS INSUFFICIENT
22:40:45 <elliott> oerjan: dance that optbot is coming back
22:41:12 <oerjan> that looks like the kind of regexp that gives you two problems
22:41:24 <elliott> it's just the valid chars in an irc name :)
22:41:31 <pikhq> A sub-Turing tarpit.
22:41:49 * pikhq wonders if there's any better syntax for expressing regular expressions...
22:42:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:42:20 <oerjan> pikhq: heck, there might even be a _worse_ one
22:42:52 <elliott> * pikhq wonders if there's any better syntax for expressing regular expressions...
22:43:21 <elliott> oerjan: i need your operopinion
22:43:28 <elliott> the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | random line
22:43:32 <elliott> oerjan: that was old optbot's format
22:43:49 <elliott> how do you suggest I modify it, keeping in line with the fact that we now have two log links, and use /?C=M;O=D, and the fact that my logs aren't really the ENTIRE backlog,
22:43:54 <elliott> and the fact that that prefix will be really long?
22:44:14 <elliott> maybe putting the logs second? but it feels weird to have optbot's zaniness at the start :)
22:45:32 <elliott> oerjan: this is a serious matter. respond.
22:45:34 <oerjan> they were never entire anyway
22:45:45 <elliott> oerjan: well, no, but close enough.
22:46:03 <elliott> the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/
22:46:44 <elliott> oerjan: how about you put my log link in the chanserv welcome message so i can avoid that ;D
22:47:30 <oerjan> i don't think the chanserv welcome message is very noticable.
22:47:43 <elliott> good point. put tunes there instead ;D
22:48:35 <oerjan> what's wrong with "Logs: " given it has to be short
22:49:04 <elliott> oerjan: I tried "logs: " but it's still quite long
22:49:10 <elliott> conn.write('TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | %s\r\n' % (random_line(),))
22:49:33 <elliott> oerjan: hm wait what if I used a url shortener... ais wouldn't click the links, but everyone else would
22:49:45 <oerjan> well i'm not used to the whole topic showing in irssi top line anyway
22:50:00 * elliott makes a goo.gl one, because that's a name you can trust!
22:50:48 <elliott> template = 'logs: http://goo.gl/54yE4 and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | %s'
22:50:57 <elliott> oerjan: do you find this acceptable? btw, i wouldn't care about the length,
22:51:00 <elliott> it's just that topics can get cut off
22:52:25 <elliott> i guess 301 chars is enough :)
22:52:35 <elliott> oerjan: just seems like it hides the optbot wisdom, yaknow
22:52:39 <elliott> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
22:55:44 * elliott updates logs from hg, runs gen.py, uploads 90 meg file to server
22:58:25 <elliott> It is said that he who holds the file of the lines holds the true secret to the Earth.
23:00:02 <elliott> lines 18% 15MB 51.8KB/s 22:10 ETA
23:00:04 <elliott> it should not be so slow...
23:00:12 <elliott> oerjan: i'm transferring ALL THE KNOWLEDGE.
23:03:32 <elliott> oerjan: it's going to be so relaxing not having to come up with witty topics all the time
23:03:41 <elliott> oerjan: we'll have that lovely predictable 6-hour clockwork schedule of topic changes
23:03:48 <elliott> with optbot! if we ever don't like the current one
23:03:55 <elliott> those were the blissful days.
23:06:45 <elliott> lines 46% 39MB 44.7KB/s 16:41 ETA
23:06:54 <elliott> oerjan: can you feel all the knowledge streaming across the tubes.
23:07:29 <oerjan> CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE TONIGHT
23:07:59 <elliott> oerjan: now imagine THIS: when you were thirteen years old, transferring merely the sum total of our blabber that I am currently quickly zipping off to a remote server would be an expensive, unrealistic, and painfully slow endeavour, with a sneakernet solution being hundreds of times faster
23:13:43 <elliott> i did, got nothing useful, but grokked it manually
23:14:37 <oerjan> hm it was a way down on the google page
23:14:57 <oerjan> especially as google insisted on suggesting "YNGEL"
23:15:27 <oerjan> which incidentally is precisely the kind of word a grumpy old norwegian might use to describe kids trespassing
23:16:28 -!- Twiddle has changed nick to Gregor.
23:16:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:16:42 <zzo38> I wrote a chess program in TeX.
23:18:59 <zzo38> Now we can write a book about chess, by using TeX.
23:19:01 <oerjan> especially since he already mentioned starting it
23:19:21 <elliott> hm in future i should use rsync to update this lines file.
23:19:42 <zzo38> I still didn't finished, but I finished the part to parse move notations. Now it will parse all algebraic move notations correctly.
23:20:12 <zzo38> And also Forsyth-Edwards Notation.
23:20:20 <zzo38> (Do you know Forsyth-Edwards Notation?)
23:21:21 <elliott> try x264 with quantisation set to 0
23:21:37 <zzo38> elliott: What is that?
23:22:47 -!- optbot has joined.
23:22:48 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | yes, that must be done.
23:22:56 <optbot> elliott: ais523, what'd he do?
23:23:07 <optbot> elliott: Are you sure you aren't just living in a nice area?
23:23:12 <elliott> optbot: I'm sure. ais would be nice anywhere.
23:23:13 <optbot> elliott: Try timecube :P
23:23:19 <elliott> optbot: That sounds ungood for my sanity.
23:23:19 <optbot> elliott: like the first one
23:23:22 <optbot> elliott: I _think_ that Daeva has an attack that actually scratches test spawner, and ANtaeus doesn't
23:23:29 <optbot> elliott: wth is up with http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png
23:23:40 <oerjan> elliott: not to mention ais523's sanity. optbot is really testing you here.
23:23:40 <optbot> oerjan: That would be a really useless program.
23:23:44 <elliott> thought oerjan pinged me there, i was very confused.
23:23:51 -!- rusopro has joined.
23:24:13 <elliott> <optbot> elliott: wth is up with http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png
23:24:13 <optbot> elliott: that way it's as shitty as IE
23:24:19 <elliott> optbot: what's as shitty as IE?
23:24:23 -!- rusopro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:24:25 <elliott> optbot: don't be so opaque!
23:24:28 <optbot> elliott: anyway, this time it seeds exactly twice at the start of the program
23:24:40 <elliott> optbot: you just use Python's standard seeding mechanisms
23:24:40 <optbot> elliott: (Proof: Imagine a regexp that executes, say, a single step of brainfuck except instead of [] you have | which pushes the code after it to a stack, ; which stops executing, : which pops off stack and executes, and ? which runs the next instruction iff !=0)
23:24:51 <elliott> optbot: That's... not a proof of that at all.
23:24:51 <optbot> elliott: meh. but that one runs on Parrot. fuck that.
23:25:01 <optbot> elliott: Are you referring to the shape, or the placement?
23:25:05 <optbot> elliott: i have my doubts
23:25:09 <elliott> optbot: I know what I talk about.
23:25:09 <optbot> elliott: are the lengths known?
23:25:15 <elliott> optbot: They're TOO LONG TO KNOW.
23:25:21 <optbot> elliott: i've done more that 20 bf-interpreters
23:25:29 <elliott> optbot: Over 9000 BF interpreters.
23:25:30 <optbot> elliott: i dont actually want anything from think geek, but even so
23:25:35 <optbot> elliott: well then let's use that. :)
23:25:39 <optbot> elliott: Deewiant, ok but fix the core bugs first!
23:25:44 <zzo38> What should be the space factors for chess notations?
23:25:52 <elliott> optbot: oerjan is Deewiant; bug him.
23:25:52 <optbot> elliott: the NNSSSNSNSNSSN line is the cube's code?
23:25:56 <optbot> elliott: but my numpad usage is a bad habit
23:26:02 <optbot> elliott: what was it, btw?
23:26:04 <optbot> elliott: i just remember it
23:26:07 <optbot> elliott: Days, bah. I offer 3 days max wait ;)
23:26:12 <zzo38> And what size should chess icons on the board?
23:27:08 <oerjan> elliott: your obvious attempt to get me banned for spamming is doomed
23:27:32 <elliott> oerjan: um optbot conversations are exempt from all spamming rules
23:27:48 <optbot> elliott: or was it just... totally random byte values?
23:27:48 <optbot> fungot: no need. finding out the answer is a project i will have forgotten in a few days
23:27:57 <fungot> elliott: heh, thanks, also, i think it tries whether h reflects or something
23:28:00 <optbot> elliott: DID YOU KNOW: bbc's online radio player is hell to get working on linux
23:28:08 <elliott> oerjan: only fizzie can use that
23:28:08 <optbot> elliott: i love pickled vaginas
23:28:19 <oerjan> elliott: i hoped it would at least list it...
23:28:20 <elliott> problem is you can't addquote anything optbot says because it just repeats :D
23:28:20 <optbot> elliott: But I can't change it without changing the font size for ALL documents, including IRC, because it's the DEFAULT SIZE.
23:28:33 <optbot> elliott: that makes sense when you're dealing with scalar values... but not values that are the combinations of scalars.
23:28:44 <optbot> elliott: vjn.fi, just follow the games link
23:28:56 <elliott> i have a bad feeling about those two bots waking up.
23:29:01 <elliott> i didn't really bother to rate-limit it.
23:29:27 <zzo38> elliott: You can do so by private message, then.
23:29:49 <zzo38> (To send add quote)
23:30:01 <elliott> zzo38: I mean, everything optbot says is just a repeat
23:30:05 <elliott> so quoting it would be starnge
23:30:35 <elliott> oerjan: i'm torn between trying out optbot! and the fact that I like this topic
23:30:36 <optbot> elliott: I've yet to shave :D
23:30:49 <zzo38> elliott: Then figure out how often it repeat......
23:31:01 <optbot> HackEgo: there's a shortcut for that
23:32:10 <quintopia> Gregor: write me a js implementation in checkout. i need to have full-featured 3D javascript games.
23:32:19 <elliott> quintopia: ask optbot to do that.
23:32:19 <optbot> elliott: it gives you a bit more appreciation for what Windows actually gets right
23:32:25 <elliott> all you kids come after optbot
23:32:26 <optbot> elliott: that's how it is
23:32:33 <elliott> it was the most bitching thing ever and now it's back, hi5 optbot
23:32:33 <optbot> elliott: I thought they would drop the + operator, since it's not in most pi calculus conventions
23:32:43 <optbot> elliott: I have no idea what "Programming languages are usually designed to prevent unintended ELIZA effects by restricting keywords and carefully avoiding potential misinterpretations" means
23:33:01 <oerjan> elliott: i do not think either of the bots reacts without the correct prefix
23:33:17 <elliott> so optbot can't actually loop non-babblers
23:33:18 <optbot> elliott: maybe #5 should be Hesse's "Glass Bead Game"
23:33:21 <elliott> and the only babbler, fungot, blocks it
23:33:21 <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!!
23:33:30 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!!
23:33:32 <HackEgo> 332) <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!!
23:34:05 <elliott> optbot: So what do you think of fungot?
23:34:05 <optbot> elliott: The english translation is complicated
23:34:14 <optbot> zzo38: it's like INTERCAL, only the bits you actually try to run have to make sense
23:34:14 <fungot> zzo38: tail recursion goes without saying though. the original paper on twobit, too.
23:34:16 <elliott> optbot: True, its... translation... is a bit "complicated".
23:34:17 <optbot> elliott: and key features
23:34:21 <elliott> optbot: What are fungot's key features?
23:34:21 <optbot> elliott: this is why I like atimes
23:34:21 <fungot> elliott: something a bit " messy" ( eg. keep precision when adding, subtracting or multiplying) wasnt executed at all.
23:34:29 <optbot> elliott: norway, sweden or denmark would be nice.
23:34:37 <elliott> optbot: Secret oerjan sympathiser!
23:34:37 <optbot> elliott: oklocod, it is the fruit of a type of tree
23:34:47 <elliott> optbot: So *that's* what the famous oklocod is!
23:34:47 <optbot> elliott: ISO-standard Lisp X-D
23:34:50 <elliott> zzo38: I don't know why it ignored you.
23:34:53 <optbot> elliott: or was it a modified fastcall?
23:34:55 <optbot> elliott: on a new string
23:35:15 <zzo38> elliott: I know why it ignored me. I put a CTRL+O in the middle of the words.
23:35:35 <elliott> optbot: How what the of it's only?
23:35:35 <optbot> elliott: i'll implement arithmetic while yo udo
23:35:46 <elliott> optbot: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
23:35:46 <optbot> elliott: and isn't ifdeffed out either
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23:36:22 <elliott> oerjan: and thus oerjan's punnes terribáles bot was reborn.
23:36:31 <elliott> (What, it was OerjansTerriblePuns -> otpbot -> optbot.)
23:36:31 <optbot> elliott: besides you can do it even in C89, using nested parens
23:37:21 <oerjan> as long as it isn't cannibáles
23:38:54 <elliott> oerjan: talk to optbot. he's really friendly.
23:38:55 <optbot> elliott: also the subtitle pun
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23:39:46 <elliott> oerjan: :( you are making him sad.
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23:40:47 <optbot> oerjan: because most roguelike games on public servers are streamed over telnet
23:40:58 <optbot> oerjan: first_input=input[1]; do mid[first_input,5,8] to [sub:ret]; Length(sub); i guess
23:41:14 <oerjan> optbot: yeah that would do it.
23:41:14 <optbot> oerjan: but seriously, just use sprite fonts
23:41:24 <oerjan> optbot: NO. NO SPRITES:
23:41:24 <optbot> oerjan: ignoring the fact that i changed my name to RatherUnnecessar to try and test it
23:41:45 <oerjan> optbot: well what that necess... oh.
23:41:45 <optbot> oerjan: when I was your age...
23:41:58 <elliott> optbot -- older than oerjan.
23:41:58 <optbot> elliott: I'm not sure what your concern is
23:42:00 <oerjan> optbot: YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN MY AGE
23:42:00 <optbot> oerjan: .pid file seems the easiest.
23:42:07 <elliott> oerjan: optbot never lies.
23:42:07 <optbot> elliott: when I used it (I was young and innocent, I didn't know better!)
23:42:14 <Gregor> Just finished easily my most complicated soda syrup batch yet.
23:42:44 <oerjan> Gregor: _and_ it didn't bring about the end of civilization!
23:43:00 <Gregor> I actually have gum arabic now.
23:43:22 <oerjan> Gregor: i'm sure that is a restricted substance, just by the name
23:43:57 <Gregor> Gum arabic is a somewhat outdated name for what is also called gum acacia.
23:44:04 <Gregor> And it's usually made in the Indian subcontinent :P
23:44:28 <oerjan> those filthy arabs, stealing gum and numbers
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23:45:35 <elliott> Gregor: what do you think of OPTBOT
23:46:05 <quintopia> i don't like the arab numbers. i like the modern english number much better
23:46:39 <elliott> optbot gazes disapprovingly, quintopia.
23:46:39 <optbot> elliott: See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on
23:46:53 <zzo38> Even modern English are based on the Hindu-Arabic digits, I think.
23:47:01 <elliott> $ grep 'See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on' *
23:47:02 <elliott> 10.11.27:13:03:39 <zzo38> elliott: See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on
23:47:31 <quintopia> zzo38: modern american is based on british english too, but that doesn't mean that american isn't so much betterer!
23:47:34 <zzo38> elliott: Out of context it does not mean much.
23:47:52 <zzo38> quintopia: I didn't say anything was better or not.
23:48:12 <zzo38> (Also, different people have different opinion what is much better English language)
23:54:25 <quintopia> what is the real tangible advantage of quattuorsexagesimal computer systems? it seems like they are not strictly faster than duotrigesimal systems on average...
23:59:41 <zzo38> What is a good point size and square size for pieces on a chess board?