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00:02:01 <pikhq> quintopia: If you're desperate, kill init.
00:02:25 <Sgeo> I know what an isomorphism is. I think.
00:02:35 <Sgeo> But that's as far as I got
00:02:42 <pikhq> (note: may cause kernel panic on a certain prevalent Unixoid)
00:03:28 <Sgeo> Wait, my understanding seems a bit.. trivial. For a function to be an isomorphism (I'm sure function isn't the right word), it just has to avoid destroying information (and possibly creating, I'm not sure)?
00:05:24 <Sgeo> What does it do on Unixoids that aren't that certain prevalent Unixoid?
00:06:39 <pikhq> Essentially, reboot.
00:10:44 <ais523> alt-sysrq-i kills init without crashing the kernel on Linux
00:10:55 <ais523> admittedly, it makes it a bit hard to use your system after that
00:11:36 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but that's not sending SIG_TERM, is it?
00:12:11 <ais523> it's "kill all processes", I'm not sure if it actually sends sigkill or not
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00:48:56 <pikhq> Huh. In the UK, technically the Crown in Right of the UK actually owns all land, and everyone else leases.
00:49:57 <pikhq> Most such land holdings are made effectively eternal, can be passed on, sold, etc., only going back to the Crown in case of death with no heirs or will.
00:50:44 <Sgeo> What happens in the US in the same situation?
00:51:28 <Sgeo> Also, response to my isomorphism question
00:55:13 <Sgeo> "Building on Kummer's work and using sophisticated computer studies, other mathematicians were able to prove the conjecture for all odd primes up to four million."
00:55:30 <Sgeo> Uh.... that seems somewhat redundant
00:55:49 <pikhq> Depends on the state, it seems.
00:57:07 <pikhq> However, in *most* states, the state government will then become owner of the estate.
00:58:20 <Sgeo> Stupid PDF reader
00:59:05 <Sgeo> Some PDF I now have about category theory says that many of its examples willnot be useful to thoe not aquainted with undergraduate level real analysis and modern algbra
00:59:10 <Sgeo> Hmm, what's "modern" algebra?
00:59:30 <Gregor> Sgeo: Partial differential equations.
00:59:48 <Sgeo> I've... seen partial derivatives
00:59:48 <pikhq> Modern algebra, of course, deals with various abstract algebras.
01:00:10 <pikhq> (as opposed to the single elementary algebra you are no doubt familiar with)
01:02:12 <Sgeo> I know a little about sets
01:03:58 <Sgeo> I'm going to put this down for a long while, I think
01:04:29 <pikhq> BTW, you'd be having no problem with this if you were in a real CS program.
01:06:23 <Sgeo> Khan Academy has a lot of stuff about linear algebra
01:09:25 <Sgeo> Also has stuff on Differential Equations
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01:20:10 <Sgeo> Solutions to differential equations are funtions or classes of functions, not numbers
01:20:15 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> zzz.....
01:21:10 * pikhq beats Sgeo with calculus
01:21:21 <Slereah> Could be a constant function
01:21:53 <Sgeo> Will this differential equation stuff get into material that's not intutive given a bit of thought?
01:22:55 <Sgeo> Will there be trigonometry? I hate trig
01:27:09 <Sgeo> The playlist is only about ordinary differential equations
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01:41:10 <Gregor> Partial differential equations is where math started ignoring our safe word and things got a bit unpleasant.
01:54:09 <pumpkin> really busy these days, which is why I haven't been on IRC much :)
01:54:16 <pumpkin> a couple of days from now maybe?
01:54:30 <pumpkin> well, big work deadline and my gf was visiting for past week too
01:54:41 <pumpkin> so no time to fart around at work and then wasn't on my computer much in the evenings :)
01:54:53 <augur> this is why i dont have a boyfriend
01:55:00 <augur> i'd have no time for fun stuff
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02:22:54 <pikhq> I'll be damned. When I wasn't looking, link-time optimisation got usable.
02:24:10 <pikhq> GCC 4.6 (currently in development) has it non-buggy, and GNU ld 2.21.51 supports linker plugins for it to work without having to deal with a somewhat buggy linker.
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02:25:26 <pikhq> This *also* means that building with clang or gcc-llvm will have LTO work much better.
02:26:44 <Sgeo> Why would anyone use GHC under Wine?
02:26:52 <Sgeo> Wanting to compile Windows Haskell programs?
02:27:24 <pikhq> I do believe that is the use-case desired, yes.
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03:59:25 <Sgeo> Dear Khan Academy: When I click on Excersizes, could you please not assume that everyone is at the Addition 1 level?
03:59:42 <pikhq> What, too hard for you? :P
04:00:51 <Zwaarddijk> that states that educational websites have to be stupid
04:01:32 <Zwaarddijk> their computer support staff probably gets bonuses depending on who comes up with the stupidest design idea for the uni website
04:02:05 <pikhq> I'm convinced that universities hire their dropouts to do websites.
04:02:59 <Zwaarddijk> fun thing at my uni - most departments' websites are easiest to find through a link chain going like main page->faculties->departments->
04:03:22 <Zwaarddijk> and you end back at the bottom of a ->faculties->departments thingy *again*
04:03:52 <Zwaarddijk> of course you should be clever enough to remember the url to the bottom of that last hierarchy, but ...
04:04:06 <Zwaarddijk> it happens that I would want to open that when I'm at a computer where my bookmarks are not present
04:04:37 <Zwaarddijk> there's a bunch of other similar doubled hierarchies in some other places (but none of those are universally broken - some parts of the portal get that right)
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04:41:18 <Lymia> How exactly does terminfo work anyways.
04:42:57 <Sgeo> I really don't feel like cleaning up dog vomit right now.
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05:42:08 <oerjan> 19:20:08 <elliott> it stands for oerjan's punnes terribales
05:42:09 <oerjan> 19:20:13 <elliott> it's french you uncultured fuck
05:42:22 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there should be no a in the second word
05:42:49 <oerjan> also, NEEDS MORE MANGLED LANGUAGE EXPANSIONS
05:43:34 <oerjan> *except for the plentiful puns involving cannibals.
05:46:44 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, quick, publish something trivial with him.
05:47:05 <oerjan> IF YOUR ERDOS NUMBER BECOMES LESS THAN MINE WE SHALL BECOME BITTER ENEMIES
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06:01:28 <augur> im thinking of putting up some puzzles on my website
06:01:47 <augur> sort of mathematical sort of
06:02:54 <augur> some of my profs have relatively small erdos numbers
06:03:07 <coppro> pikhq: crap, give me a few years to start doing original research, ok
06:03:33 <pikhq> coppro: I intend to write a paper with him on the process of resurrection.
06:03:52 <pikhq> His input as the first person to have been resurrected by technology will, no doubt, be quite helpful.
06:04:05 <augur> chomsky has an erdos number of 4, so lasnik has an erdos number of 5
06:04:06 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: what if he is resurrected by theology instead!
06:04:09 <augur> lasnik is one of my profs
06:04:31 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: Then Erdős would be the Second Coming of the Christ.
06:04:41 <coppro> I have met someone whose wife is a 2
06:05:36 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: Erdös is of Jewish decent, so ... I guess we need to bring out our lulav and esrog and all that jazz and go sing hosiannah son of david at his grave?
06:05:47 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: So's Jesus.
06:06:09 <Zwaarddijk> who knows with those guys, every second one turns out to be a messiah :|
06:06:13 <pikhq> Man, the Erdős numbering is going to get absurd if it keeps up for a few generations. Imagine one's Erdős number being limited by the *generations it's been* since Erdős lived.
06:06:32 <coppro> pikhq: precisely why I need to minimize my own
06:06:39 <augur> pikhq: im sure one could generalize it to factor that out
06:06:40 <Zwaarddijk> so you can sum up all the paths by which you get one
06:07:02 <Zwaarddijk> where people end up getting erdös numbers less than one
06:07:03 <augur> so that you have a generational erdos number dependent on the minimum overlap of some sort
06:07:11 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: No, seriously, ö ≠ ő
06:07:29 <augur> so that the earliest you could reasonably have coauthored with someone with an erdos number would make that number relatively 0
06:07:36 <oerjan> nah what we need is just another obsessed drug-addicted math genius to overshadow erdős
06:07:38 <augur> for the minimum of such numbers
06:07:53 <augur> oerjan: i can try to be the first two
06:07:55 <pikhq> oerjan: Shame that those don't come often.
06:08:03 <augur> but not the second to last one :(
06:08:27 <augur> learning universal algebra and category theory are hard enough
06:08:34 <quintopia> Zwaarddijk: it every branching the value splits evenly among the branches and every new node it increases by 1. your number is the minimum over all paths.
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06:09:00 <oerjan> <Zwaarddijk> so you can sum up all the paths by which you get one <-- wouldn't that be more appropriate for a Feynman number
06:10:00 <augur> quintopia: is that the feynmanian interpretation of erdos numbers? :x
06:10:12 <oerjan> also you'd want to add some complex phase factor
06:10:18 <quintopia> i assumed that erdos was more prolific than feynman
06:10:36 <augur> i was making reference to feynmans interpretation of quantum mechanics
06:10:40 <quintopia> so the branching has more effect there
06:12:17 <oerjan> "Note that Feynman has an Erdös Number of 3."
06:17:24 <augur> oerjan: interesting!
06:17:34 <augur> so lasnik has a minimum feynman number of 8!
06:17:39 <quintopia> my example of a way of allowing branching to occur does not let you get numbers less than 1 though if people are nodes, unless you allow per-paper multi-edges
06:18:22 <quintopia> i almost got an erdos number once >.>
06:18:34 <oerjan> augur: i don't think it's cool to calculate feynman numbers in the exact same way as erdős numbers except for starting with feynman, though
06:18:46 <augur> oerjan: it is for me!
06:18:52 <augur> quintopia: yes it is
06:19:27 <oerjan> every number person should have their own, curiously relevant rule for it
06:19:38 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | ais523, err, how could you know the seed.
06:19:39 <augur> quintopia: extended naturals*
06:19:55 <quintopia> augur: there is no reason to assume those
06:19:59 * oerjan suddenly cannot help considering the number associated to a porn star
06:20:03 <pikhq> Eight factorial is an astounding lower bound.
06:20:08 <quintopia> but the papers never went anywhere
06:20:20 <oerjan> i think you should find the kind of rule used there obvious...
06:20:57 <augur> quintopia: from wikipedia: "A person with no such coauthorship chain connecting to Erdős has an Erdős number of infinity (or an undefined one)."
06:21:21 <pikhq> quintopia: "Easy" way to get a low Erdős number: prove some conjecture. Thereby be guaranteed a well-known math career. Viola.
06:21:49 <quintopia> i think the "undefined" interpretation would be simpler. it allows you to say "i don't have one" which is more straightforward than "mine is infinity"
06:22:04 <augur> quintopia: well im an ass.
06:22:45 <quintopia> pikhq: but i gave up on a math career
06:23:01 <quintopia> who has two thumbs and will never prove the UGC?
06:24:55 <pikhq> It's a shame that all the easy proofs have been done already. :P
06:25:33 <Zwaarddijk> you just need to come up with a good new field that sounds reasonably useful, and prove some trivial shit in it
06:25:59 <pikhq> I'll be. 'Tis the ides of March.
06:26:06 <Vorpal> Zwaarddijk, if anything such a field is even harder
06:26:14 <Vorpal> I mean to come up with
06:28:23 <pikhq> If ye be Caeser, beware!
06:28:41 <quintopia> actually i was trying to find a way to learn an intersection of 2 half-spaces in polynomial time
06:29:20 <quintopia> it's one of those problems that's trivial in low dimension, and ridiculously hard in n dimensions
06:29:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is that supposed to be?
06:30:13 <oerjan> It is a knife you see before you
06:30:26 <quintopia> and there was no good reason for it
06:31:03 <oerjan> there was a perfectly good reason,
06:31:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, why is it made of rubber?
06:31:11 <oerjan> 'Tis the Ides of March!
06:31:17 <Vorpal> you stole it from a theatre right?
06:31:34 <oerjan> but but... it worked in hamlet!
06:32:51 <pikhq> oerjan: The play you're referencing is "The Tragedy of Julius Caesar".
06:32:57 <quintopia> january february march april may june vorpal inane september...
06:33:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: March 15th is the Ides of March.
06:33:41 <oerjan> pikhq: no no i mean using a theatre dagger worked in hamlet
06:33:45 <quintopia> there is nothing more to it than that
06:34:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: Meaning you need to watch some Shakespeare, man.
06:34:31 <quintopia> oerjan: iirc the most dramatic deaths there involved poison: poison in the ear, in the drink, on the tip of the foil
06:34:40 <oerjan> well you don't need to watch it, just absorb some memes like i
06:35:08 <pikhq> Shakespeare is genuinely enjoyable when performed, though. It's just insanely boring when read.
06:35:13 <oerjan> then mangle them horribly
06:35:19 <pikhq> And it boggles the mind that English classes actually freaking read them.
06:35:31 <pikhq> Reading scripts to plays.
06:35:57 <quintopia> part of the class requirements were to go see like 3 different live performances
06:36:04 <pikhq> quintopia: Good work.
06:36:13 <quintopia> but this class happened in england, so it wasn't hard to find live performances
06:36:25 <pikhq> Yeah, it'd be pretty hard to find that in the US.
06:36:37 <quintopia> i saw pericles, as you like it, and ... something else
06:37:01 <pikhq> It's not like you're at most a couple hundred miles from Stratford upon Avon here.
06:37:03 <oerjan> <quintopia> there is nothing more to it than that <-- well there is, the roman way of numbering dates was weird
06:37:09 <quintopia> i also went to see a performance of romeo and juliet live in atlanta for one of my classes in high school or middle school...
06:37:30 <quintopia> they do matinees for kiddies on field trips
06:37:41 <quintopia> and then they bring out the booze and do the adult versions :P
06:37:57 <oerjan> they counted the number of days until the _next_ calendae, ides, and i think one more
06:38:03 <quintopia> which isn't to say the kiddie versions weren't as raunchy as shakespeare is by its very nature
06:38:25 <oerjan> (inclusive counting, so the day before was the second iirc)
06:38:40 <pikhq> Aaah, Shakespeare. Highest ratio of dick jokes to content of any bit of 'high culture'. :P
06:39:00 <oerjan> pikhq: surely that was his true genius :D
06:39:09 <pikhq> quintopia: Thus the scare quotes.
06:39:10 <quintopia> maybe hamlet was reasonably high up there
06:39:36 <quintopia> but i really think that people thinking shakespeare is haute couture is the strangest thing
06:39:49 <pikhq> Yeah, it's just several hundred year old reasonably well-written popular entertainment.
06:39:55 <quintopia> "It must be fancy because they talk all antiquarian!"
06:40:33 <pikhq> But, then, a lot of what is perceived as "high culture" these days is really just old popular entertainment.
06:40:35 <quintopia> SOME of them are well-written. some of them suck. shakespeare did, by himself, the entire spectrum of modern movies.
06:42:09 <oerjan> those darn aquarian speakers
06:42:10 <pikhq> (see: most things that are both old entertainment and enjoyable)
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06:43:15 <quintopia> hamlet = big fish, titus andronicus = 2012, romeo and juliet = high school musical, twelfth night = freaky friday, etc.
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06:44:29 <pikhq> Romeo and Juliet gets so very misinterpreted, though.
06:44:41 <pikhq> I don't know why, but people are convinced it's this nice, romantic tale.
06:45:06 <pikhq> It's a tale of two idiots offing themselves for stupid reasons.
06:46:37 <pikhq> And few other plays get that treatment, because people are hardly aware of the premises.
06:48:50 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnalogyBackfire
06:49:10 <pikhq> Dammit, now I'm even less likely to sleep.
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06:50:34 <quintopia> in another channel i'm in there is a macro bot. one of the macros is to answer any link to tvtropes with "Don't do it! No one's ever come back alive!"
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07:00:59 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/
07:01:01 <augur> for anyone interested
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07:03:07 <augur> ask me questions (including requests for more data points, or rational simplifications)
07:05:01 <augur> or for some correlative coding
07:07:31 <augur> no, no correlative coding, sorry :)
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07:39:27 <quintopia> augur: where is the answer supposed to be submitted?
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08:03:55 <augur> quintopia: to me here, if you like
08:03:59 <augur> or email it to me, or something
08:04:14 <quintopia> well i have no idea what it's supposed to mean
08:04:27 <augur> its not really supposed to be submitted tho. its just to get you to think
08:04:28 <quintopia> i hate puzzles with no english words
08:04:35 <augur> there _is_ something going on in these
08:04:49 <oerjan> THIS IS 2011 YOU MUST HAVE AUTOMATICAL JUDGING WITH HIGH SCORES
08:04:53 <augur> i will answer questions, if you like
08:04:53 <quintopia> if it said something like "find a function to generate this sequence"
08:05:21 <augur> oerjan: i was actually considering something like that, but not for judging, for generating graphs
08:05:36 <augur> quintopia: if you want to do that, go ahead!
08:05:50 <augur> ill tell you this tho, its not a sequence
08:06:20 <quintopia> oerjan: like theconfoundry.com. automatical/crowd-sourced judging and high scores! and some of the puzzles are actually p okay. by which i mean, the ones that i post are p okay.
08:06:49 <augur> theres no real answer to these puzzles tho
08:06:57 <augur> to be sure, theres what i did to produce these things
08:07:03 <quintopia> augur: so then it's a set? an infinite set?
08:07:51 <quintopia> then an english language question would be "what is the underlying structure that all these things have in common?"
08:07:54 <augur> i will a) answer questions, b) provide more data points
08:08:04 <augur> quintopia: it could be, indeed
08:08:32 <augur> valid questions are things like, are there subsets that have common properties, etc.
08:08:41 <augur> if so, what subsets, etc.
08:09:49 <augur> it has to be a question that involves expanding or restricting the data points in rational ways
08:10:18 <quintopia> question: is it more useful to think of these things as (disconnected) digraphs? or as small sets of separate digraphs that are only tangentially and quantitatively related?
08:10:49 <augur> each image (separated by dotted lines) is a single digraph
08:11:30 <augur> also, if you ask for some sort of natural reorganization of some fashion, i will also provide this
08:11:39 <quintopia> what is an example of a property which restricts the set of all digraphs to exactly the digraphs in your set? :P
08:14:57 <augur> oerjan: no ideas? no questions? :)
08:17:51 <oerjan> well i wasn't going to say, but it immediately puts me off by analogy with the kind of iq tests i find annoying.
08:18:49 <augur> here theres no real answer
08:19:23 <augur> i mean, the only answer is to understand it sufficiently that you're happy with your understanding!
08:19:33 <oerjan> ...these iq tests are annoying because they feel like there is no real answer, but you have to guess what the test maker was actually thinking of
08:19:49 <augur> well, in that sense then yeah, i suppose.
08:20:07 <augur> i can give you hints if you want. you just have to ask the right questions! :)
08:20:22 <augur> this aspect of the game is also intentional
08:20:37 <oerjan> i may not be managing to get through the point that i'm not actually interested.
08:20:47 <augur> well you SHOULD be interested!
08:21:40 <oerjan> i have this nice book about intuition, it gives the excellent advice to ignore ideas using the verb "should"
08:21:53 <augur> well you MUST be interested!
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08:25:36 <oklopol> "<augur> chomsky has an erdos number of 4, so lasnik has an erdos number of 5" <<< i couldn't find a prof with more than 3 in our uni, but i suppose it's slightly easier for mathematicians :P
08:25:44 <oklopol> (also i didn't try very hard)
08:25:53 <augur> oklopol: check out my puzzles!
08:30:47 <oklopol> but no one had a 1 which was kinda disappointing :(
08:31:28 <oklopol> that's exactly the kind of thing i don't like doing, i want an exact problem where i know exactly what to do
08:31:40 <augur> oklopol: explain it.
08:31:44 <augur> explain whats going on.
08:31:59 <oklopol> or at least i want to get that illusion, of course problem solving is always about not knowing what you're supposed to do, but i need some sort of nice framework
08:32:13 <oklopol> augur: is the sequence ordered?
08:32:25 <augur> depends on what you mean.
08:32:52 <oklopol> is P_2 the first graph, P_2 \cup C_4 \cup C_4 the second one, etc
08:33:11 <oklopol> except the second one was P_2 \cup C_4 i guess
08:34:02 <oklopol> if you don't get my notation
08:34:05 <augur> ah well, obviously thats true, but
08:34:38 <oklopol> (i have to go to uni pretty soon)
08:34:42 <augur> i mean, the items are graphs, obviously
08:34:59 <oklopol> yeah but i'm asking if this is a sequence of graphs or a set of graphs
08:35:02 <oklopol> what information is relevant
08:35:08 <augur> they're presented in no particular order
08:35:34 <oklopol> they are a random subset of a set of graphs?
08:35:53 <oklopol> but the subset of small graphs in that set?
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08:36:30 <oklopol> i'm asking if there exists a set of graphs S such that the graphs is see are a finite subset of S
08:36:51 <oklopol> or perhaps the set of all graphs of S up to some size k with respect to some definition of size
08:37:10 <augur> oh, yes, there is _some_ infinite set of graphs S of which this is a subset
08:37:31 <augur> namely, a small number that i bothered to create in 20 minutes.
08:39:05 <oklopol> one thing i immediately started wondering about was a connection between C_4 and P_2: both are in face C_4 if you allow repetition of vertices, but you can't get say a triangle this way
08:39:36 <oklopol> what the fuck am i saying?
08:41:01 <oklopol> but, C_4 is the complement of the graph P_2 \cup P_2
08:41:18 <oklopol> and parities add up as well
08:42:24 <oklopol> so i guess my answer is: C_4
08:43:31 <augur> ive added some commentary btw.
08:43:35 <augur> Sgeo: join the fun!
08:43:40 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/
08:44:40 <oklopol> oh umm they are digraphs, sorry my crt is kinda sucky :D
08:44:58 <oerjan> augur: are there any subgraphs of those given which are in the set but not themselves given?
08:45:23 <oklopol> in that case complementation doesn't work, so i'll go with my original answer: C_4 but repetition of vertices is allowed, that does work now now that i think about it
08:46:20 <oerjan> augur: or wait, who were you answering
08:47:13 <oerjan> dead people usually are.
08:47:37 <oklopol> ^ see, it was true and i claimed it was obvious, therefore i'm really smart
08:48:38 <oerjan> do all graphs in the set have 4n vertices and an even number of edges
08:48:39 <oklopol> subgraphs not being in the set makes the problem much more interesting, because now i can verify my hypotheses myself
08:49:31 <oklopol> oerjan: oh you realized that too, was it before or after you asked augur this for that exact reason?
08:49:38 <oerjan> basically without that information, the set given did not strictly imply _anything_
08:49:40 <oklopol> by which i mean my comment was stupid
08:49:43 <oerjan> oklopol: before, i think
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08:50:00 <augur> oerjan: to that specific question, no
08:50:40 <oklopol> oerjan: it did imply that there exists a natural way to construct these graphs that gives those graphs with the least effort
08:51:04 <oklopol> but that's not really the kind of puzzle that's likeable
08:51:04 <augur> i dont know if its least effort, but
08:52:03 <augur> oerjan: mind you, my answers could be informative beyond the obvious
08:52:11 <oerjan> augur: in that case can you give an example which does not have 4n vertices and an even number of edges (preferably in all allowable combinations)
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08:53:04 <augur> can i put that off till tomorrow?
08:53:17 <oerjan> heh are they that hard to construct? :D
08:53:29 <augur> no but im on a laptop so doing it with a trackpad is annoying
08:53:35 <augur> the graphics, i mean
08:54:18 <oklopol> if it has more than a million nodes, shit gets interesting
08:54:45 <augur> actually they might always have 4n vertices, im honestly not sure :)
08:54:45 <oerjan> does this mean the examples given were made not just based on being _mathematically_ easy to construct, but also on being easy to draw on a computer?
08:55:22 <augur> no, the answer is almost certainly no, but give me until tomorrow
08:55:33 <augur> well, drawing graphs is easy, but tedious :P
08:56:08 <augur> as for mathematical easy, this might be true. i suppose it depends on what you mean by math.
08:56:36 <oklopol> yeah oerjan, what do you mean by math? i've always wondered about that
08:56:57 <augur> as it were, this particular kind of math is not at all unfamiliar to this channel.
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08:58:49 <augur> mm.. oerjan, i think infact that there are always 4n vertices, yes.
08:58:53 <oerjan> i meant mathematical as opposed to physically for presentation
08:59:23 <augur> yes, actually there are always 4n vertices.
09:00:46 <oerjan> are all the graphs subgraphs of a square grid?
09:00:59 <augur> im not sure what you mean
09:01:55 <oerjan> like a subgraph of an unbounded chessboard pattern
09:02:09 <oerjan> each example so far can be put in one
09:02:52 <augur> ah, you mean where each vertex is a square on the grid, and edge are only between rectilinearly adjacent squares' nodes?
09:04:14 <augur> but mind you, this is true of any graph with 4n vertices, surely.
09:04:18 <oerjan> and yet clearly not all such graphs, e.g. not less than four C_4 copies
09:04:36 <oerjan> augur: um no. not for a complete graph, for example
09:05:44 <lifthrasiir> augur, a set of digraphs that there is no odd cycles?
09:06:03 <lifthrasiir> i cannot really think of the better characterization
09:06:10 <augur> this is true of them
09:06:12 <augur> but not sufficient
09:06:13 <oerjan> actually that follows from the grid property
09:06:50 <lifthrasiir> every vertices should be a part of exactly one even cycle, then?
09:07:18 <oerjan> oh are the components always paths or cycles?
09:07:34 <oerjan> that's not true, some of the examples have no cycles at all
09:07:39 <lifthrasiir> augur, and that is not sufficient yet, right?
09:07:42 <augur> oerjan: look again
09:08:02 <oerjan> oops they are _directed_?
09:08:57 <augur> you have at least two facts to work with that are very useful, i think
09:10:13 <augur> depending on which questions you ask
09:10:17 <oerjan> ok so those components that i thought were just two connected vertices are actually 2-cycles
09:10:31 <oerjan> in that case is every component always a 2n-cycle?
09:10:44 <oerjan> directed in the obvious way
09:11:36 <oerjan> can there be larger than 4-cycle components?
09:13:01 <oerjan> is the graph consisting of two 6-cycles a member of the set?
09:13:25 <augur> that is, 2 6 cycles and nothing else?
09:14:40 <oerjan> we could summarize the examples given by number of 2- and 4-cycles: (2,1), (2,2), (4,0) and (0,4)
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09:15:32 <augur> i will not comment on characterizations.
09:15:54 <oerjan> well this is just notation
09:16:20 <augur> i will however reveal more data (or constrain existing data) along specific lines (at first just natural ones, later, ones that you describe, if they exist)
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09:18:34 <oerjan> oh hm since the components are cycles the number of edges = number of vertices
09:20:04 <oerjan> is the graph containing just 4 2n-cycles always a member?
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09:20:32 <oerjan> 4 6-cycles, or 4 8-cycles, etc.
09:21:23 <oerjan> do you have a counterexample? :D
09:23:14 <oerjan> is there any element of the set consisting solely of 6-cycles (any number)?
09:23:54 <oerjan> (preferrably smallest) example?
09:24:20 <oerjan> we've already excluded 2 and 4
09:25:08 <oerjan> what about 2n 2n-cycles in general?
09:26:01 <augur> this constitutes a natural simplificatin.
09:26:15 <lifthrasiir> if the set didn't contain the example 2 (i.e. (2,1)) it is possible that there should be no k-cycles or at least k k-cycles...
09:27:07 <oerjan> well a hypothesis is that if there are just 2n-cycles, then their number must be divisible by 2n
09:27:09 <augur> mind you, not a single natural simplification.
09:27:30 <augur> er, not an atomic one, i guess you could say.
09:27:46 <augur> lifthrasiir: i have no idea what you're asking :p
09:27:54 <oerjan> augur: you are not making sense now...
09:28:26 <lifthrasiir> augur, that is just a side effect of my thinking process... not asking. :p
09:28:32 <augur> each puzzle that i show you is in principle an infinite set of digraphs describable in some elegant fashion
09:28:45 <oerjan> is the disjoint union of two examples always an example?
09:29:00 <oerjan> (including two equal ones)
09:29:07 <augur> there may or may not be ways to simplify the description and derive a subset of this set
09:29:50 <augur> that is to say, the derivation of a subset is natural, because it derives from a simplification of the description
09:30:02 <augur> or maybe a complication, depending on your perspective, but i'd say simplification
09:30:18 <augur> lemme think about the disjoint union question for a moment
09:30:46 <lifthrasiir> so the derivation of a subset of that set can be natural or not, depending on how the subset is defined (against the original description)?
09:31:12 <oerjan> is there an example containing 6-cycles, but less than 6 of them?
09:31:23 <augur> arbitrary subsets arent "natural" in the sense that they have an elegant description. they might, but in general they probably dont.
09:32:23 <lifthrasiir> does the set contain an empty digraph? (just to be sure)
09:33:04 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: that _would_ technically contradict information already given ;D
09:33:12 <augur> oerjan: which information?
09:33:26 <oerjan> augur: no subgraphs left out
09:34:05 <oerjan> but it's an example easy to forget
09:34:12 <augur> yes, its probably better to say it doesnt include the empty digraph
09:34:27 <oerjan> 3 4-cycles, 2 2-cycles?
09:34:42 <augur> tho including it doesnt break anything essential
09:35:42 <oerjan> the graph consisting of 3 4-cycles and 2 2-cycles? if we have that then we can concluse we always have the graph of n 4-cycles + 2 2-cycles
09:35:46 <augur> btw, http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/1/ has a running log of the relevant question/answer pairs
09:36:33 <augur> oerjan: there is no graph that is just 3 4-cycles
09:36:40 <lifthrasiir> (i thought that it gathers the q&a pairs automatically somehow at first...)
09:36:47 <oerjan> augur: that _plus_ 2 2-cycles, duh
09:37:38 <augur> that graph does not exist
09:37:53 <oerjan> er you mean as an example
09:38:04 <oerjan> surely it exists as a graph
09:38:17 <augur> no! it doesnt exist ANYWHERE!
09:38:25 <lifthrasiir> can it be determined in linear time whether the set contains a particular graph or not, given the numbers of each cycles already?
09:38:26 <oerjan> hm that's an obvious hole in my induction ;D
09:38:50 <augur> lifthrasiir: i have no fucking clue man
09:39:06 <augur> ill give you a hint
09:39:13 <oerjan> any graph containing 2 2-cycles + (4n+3) 4-cycles (you just buried n=0)
09:39:30 <augur> you're missing a conceptualization thats incredibly useful and potentially incredibly obvious
09:39:37 <oerjan> er *containing exactly
09:39:43 <augur> i have no idea if those graphs are members :p
09:40:22 <augur> i dont have a full mathematical workup of this, just a way to generate examples, so as the mathematical questions become more complex, i will quickly fail to be able to answer them
09:43:05 <augur> you might do well to ask questions that dont seem pertinent to the immediate facts
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09:44:17 <oerjan> does this set stem from a problem that is not immediately graph-related?
09:44:40 <oerjan> (trying to be lateral here :D)
09:44:57 <augur> the way im conceptualizing it is only tangentially graph related
09:45:04 <oerjan> is it a matching problem of sorts?
09:45:19 <augur> not as im conceiving it but equivalent to one, i have no idea
09:45:46 <oerjan> is it connected to number theory?
09:46:17 <oerjan> (and i mean the source of it, not whether there happens to be _some_ connection)
09:46:17 <augur> i doubt it, to both.
09:46:43 <oerjan> is it a counting problem?
09:47:16 <augur> you probably can think of it as one, but that's probably one of the least intuitive ways to understand what's going on
09:47:37 <oerjan> transportation/travelling salesman stuff?
09:48:16 <augur> too specific, these questions
09:48:26 <augur> np-complete, i have no idea. depends on what you mean, i suppose
09:48:32 <augur> graph membership test? no clue.
09:49:00 <augur> think more laterally
09:50:26 <oerjan> hm clearly a subgraph of a member isn't always a member
09:51:39 <oerjan> are the examples constructed by applying some operation to the smaller ones?
09:51:47 <augur> remember: you can ask for natural restrictions to the set, or for more information about the set
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09:52:12 <augur> what do you mean by applying some operation to the smaller ones?
09:52:16 <oerjan> i have no idea what you mean with that natural restrictions stuff
09:52:37 <oerjan> well like doubling a vertex and adding an edge between, that sort of thing
09:52:46 <augur> like i said, right now, since you dont know what to ask for, i will choose at random of the ones i can see
09:53:06 <oerjan> we have disjoint union, but that's clearly insufficient
09:53:08 <augur> oh, i have no idea if that will do anything
09:53:26 <oerjan> ok give a natural restriction then :D
09:53:46 <augur> im going to go to bed in a bit, since i have class at 3:30
09:54:09 <oerjan> ok and i'm going to get up properly
09:54:16 <augur> but tomorrow i will give a natural subset of puzzle 1
09:55:24 <augur> remind me tomorrow!
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11:28:50 <ais523> context for the topic?
11:29:04 <ais523> I can hardly answer a question in the topic if I don't know what it's about
11:29:12 <ais523> although the punctuation is Vorpal's style, which helps slightly
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12:06:17 <olsner> maybe look for a similar line in the log?
12:17:09 <fizzie> ais523: It's from 2010-10-05, and you have already answered <ais523> Vorpal: well, it's seeded with the current date and time, right?
12:19:28 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | because making a hole out of arbitrary expressions is freaky.
12:19:44 <fizzie> Context seems to be manipulating the NetHack RNG by stepping it by trying to walk into a wall.
12:20:41 <coppro> pikhq: further to a discussion yesterday, one of my profs this term has erdos number 1
12:21:26 <fizzie> coppro: Now you just need to cut off his head with a sword, and then your Erdös number will be 1. (What do you mean that's not how it works?)
12:21:57 <coppro> we have at least another prof with 1 as well
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13:06:36 <ais523> coppro: go coauthor a paper with one of them
13:06:44 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest3172.
13:07:19 <ais523> I should really ask my supervisor his Erdős number sometime
13:07:30 <ais523> because otherwise, how will I know what mine is?
13:08:16 -!- Guest3172 has changed nick to Gregor.
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13:17:08 <fizzie> There should be some sort of an "Erdös number preservation society" that would try to promote co-authored papers between young, healthy mathematicians and aging, low-Erdös-number mathematicians, to keep people with low numbers available for as long as possible.
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14:02:09 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes, because clearly that's the metric you want to preserve :P
14:13:45 <fizzie> Gregor: Well, sure: it's a sad world where you need necromancy to get a single-digit Erdös number.
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14:49:19 <pikhq> Sad... Or awesome?
14:50:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | optbot is fucking terrible and we all hate it.
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15:07:47 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Equivalent code:.
15:07:47 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | optbot is fucking terrible and we all hate it.
15:08:15 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Yes, but mIRC didn't tab complete you before :P Maybe it wsa just me.
15:08:15 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | optbot is fucking terrible and we all hate it.
15:08:23 <optbot> Lymia: alas it can only edit ColorForth
15:08:41 <Gregor> Lymia: optbot is a bot that replaces the topic with retarded bullshit on a regular basis.
15:08:41 <optbot> Gregor: what about implementing sii?
15:09:06 <fizzie> Gregor: The arms race, you are starting it. Soon there'll be an antiantioptbot.
15:09:10 <Gregor> antioptbot is a bot that reverts any changes made by optbot to the topic.
15:09:11 <optbot> Gregor: here is the similar one.
15:09:29 <Lymia> Why don't you just kill optbot, fizzie.
15:09:29 <optbot> Lymia: Because, dammit, the root directory should have useful things in it.
15:09:52 <fizzie> Lymia: Because of apathy, primarily.
15:10:08 <fizzie> Usually it's oerjan who takes more of an active role in administrationary things.
15:12:07 <Lymia> I want to make an antiantioptbot for the lulz.
15:12:32 <Lymia> Because somebody mentioned it.
15:13:35 -!- Gregor has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
15:14:15 -!- Lymia has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erdös number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | First person to make antiantioptbot gets a cookie..
15:15:43 <ais523> oh, I forgot optbot screwed with the topic
15:15:43 <optbot> ais523: i deem it "teenagerism"
15:16:25 <Gregor> ais523: I don't care about it just babbling incoherently, only effing with the topic in a destructive way.
15:16:36 <ais523> ah, antioptbot's yours?
15:16:46 <ais523> I may make an antiantiantioptbot, in an esolang or something
15:17:18 <Gregor> So every time optbot changes the topic, it will get changed three more times, ultimately ending up in the topic it had in the first place? :P
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15:18:26 <Lymia> I want you to make a new bot.
15:18:36 <Lymia> That, or add a function to an existingbot.
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15:43:00 <Lymia> Gregor, decides on a random esolang and a random not-esolang for you.
15:43:13 <Gregor> OK ... and what does that do? X-P
15:43:46 <Lymia> Esolang: /// | Normal Language: Perl
15:44:06 <fizzie> Then you go and implement?
15:44:31 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind seeing Perl implemented in ///.
15:45:27 <Gregor> `echo I'm programmable, so you can make me do that :P
15:46:02 <HackEgo> I'm programmable, so you can make me do that :P
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15:49:51 <fizzie> Try it out, it does what you'd expect.
15:50:00 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | nice.
15:50:00 <fizzie> (Also it's not my fault.)
15:50:00 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erdös number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | First person to make antiantioptbot gets a cookie..
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15:50:25 <oerjan> optbot: how do you feel at this time
15:50:25 <optbot> oerjan: so what's the problem with just reading it?
15:50:35 <fizzie> oerjan: There are already plans for antantioptbot and antiantiantioptbot floating around.
15:51:12 <fizzie> Soon every topic-change will be accompanied by a screenful of botfights.
15:51:59 <oerjan> who is planning antiantioptbot
15:52:22 <fizzie> I mentioned it, Lymia requested it; I doubt anyone's actively making it.
15:52:41 <fizzie> ais523's "may" do an antiantiantioptbot.
15:52:55 <fizzie> It's going to be pretty silly with no antiantioptbot in place.
15:53:27 <Lymia> fizzie, i need a suitable programming language for it.
15:56:07 <Lymia> I should Perl Golf it
15:57:57 <oerjan> well some people were complaining i was no fun, so i shall have a suitably silly policy for this until elliott actually fixes optbot
15:57:57 <optbot> oerjan: and how to scale that up further
15:58:14 <oerjan> ok, antioptbot survives
15:59:12 <fizzie> I don't think he acknowledges there's anything broken there.
15:59:26 <oerjan> fizzie: we made an agreement, in case you didn't see that
15:59:32 <fizzie> Ah; I must've missed that.
15:59:52 <fizzie> I have a strict drama-quota, must've overfloweded.
15:59:53 <oerjan> he'll make it not change topics for 12 hours after someone else does
16:00:33 <Gregor> <fizzie> Soon every topic-change will be accompanied by a screenful of botfights. ** only those that are initiated by optbot
16:01:21 <oerjan> i think i shall use 1d5 for the next bot, etc.
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16:02:24 <Gregor> multibot is really a pretty nifty construction of mine :P
16:02:30 <Gregor> antioptbot took me like five minutes to write :P
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16:02:58 <fizzie> (Just testing how many will fit.)
16:03:12 <fizzie> Not very many, it seems.
16:04:36 <Gregor> Eventually they can just be called "aaaaaaaob" though :P
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16:07:19 <oerjan> <fizzie> Gregor: Well, sure: it's a sad world where you need necromancy to get a single-digit Erdös number.
16:07:46 <oerjan> well the singularity might fix that in time
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16:09:41 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erdös number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | First person to make antiantioptbot gets a cookie..
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16:10:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*antiantio@*.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net.
16:10:16 <oerjan> SORRY THE CHAIN IS OVER
16:10:26 -!- Gregor has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
16:11:56 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
16:15:44 <oerjan> <fizzie> I wouldn't mind seeing Perl implemented in ///.
16:16:04 <Gregor> Perl 6 has no good implementation right now anyway, right? <trollface/>
16:16:07 <oerjan> well you'd probably want to Itflabtijtslwi
16:16:24 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:17:01 <oerjan> maybe one could add an FF command for the ffi
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16:26:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I dearly hope someone at least mentioned groups to him.
16:26:58 <oerjan> i somehow feel the border goes between linear/vector algebra on one side and groups etc. on the other
16:27:10 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.25: 4M(!!!)+32k+8k+2k to Japan, 8k to Malaysia, 1k+/32 to Australia, 64k+256+/32 to Indonesia, 512 to Thailand, /32 to China.
16:27:27 <oerjan> although by this time even groups are old
16:27:42 <Gregor> Isn't /32 = one address?
16:28:48 <Ilari> Gregor: /n there is IPv6 /n.
16:29:29 <Gregor> Ahhh, sorry, IPv6, got it.
16:29:42 <Gregor> I was wondering if we had really stooped to fighting over individual IPv4 addresses :P
16:29:47 <oerjan> i think daily reporting of ipv6 depletion is like your obsession getting obsessions
16:30:15 <Ilari> The IPv6 parts are more about adoption than depletion.
16:32:33 <Ilari> APNIC can allocate 800k of those /32s and then think about getting 2410::/12 (or something) from IANA.
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16:39:57 <Ilari> No RIR is even close to qualifying for second IPv6 block allocation (oh, and the present blocks were allocated in 2006).
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16:42:21 <Ilari> APNIC biggest free block: 2M. Major blocks possible: 2M: 1, 1M: 7, 512k: 27, 256k: 89, 128k: 215, 64k: 511.
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16:44:32 <elliott> 01:25:57 <Gregor> Partial differential equations is where math started ignoring our safe word and things got a bit unpleasant.
16:44:36 <oerjan> you'll find out soon enough
16:45:27 <elliott> 04:26:11 <Lymia> How exactly does terminfo work anyways.
16:45:27 <elliott> 04:27:50 <Sgeo> I really don't feel like cleaning up dog vomit right now.
16:46:08 <elliott> 05:49:36 <coppro> I have met someone whose wife is a 2
16:46:26 <oerjan> took me an eternity to get that character too, somehow my character map had disappeared from the usual spot in the program menu
16:46:49 <Gregor> = alt-o-" = come on people use compose keys :P
16:46:54 <elliott> oerjan: Get tuomov's Compose file thing :P
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16:47:02 <Lymia> How exactly does one use terminfo
16:47:33 <Gregor> I think the usual answer is "by using curses instead" :P
16:48:16 * elliott skips over shakespeare talk
16:48:25 <elliott> he is not called Erdös ffs
16:48:44 <oerjan> i can do ö quite easily
16:49:16 <elliott> 06:45:56 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/
16:49:34 <elliott> also broken images :) dunno if that's intentional or not
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16:50:42 <Ilari> Okay, other RIRs, major allocations, last 30 days: AFRINIC, 512k to South Africa. RIPE NCC: 256k to Italy, 256k to Turkey, 256k to Netherlands, 256k to Poland. All the other RIRs combined can't match APNIC in allocations.
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16:52:08 <elliott> 13:02:17 <fizzie> There should be some sort of an "Erdös number preservation society" that would try to promote co-authored papers between young, healthy mathematicians and aging, low-Erdös-number mathematicians, to keep people with low numbers available for as long as possible.
16:52:26 <oerjan> unicode has made people so picky
16:52:43 <elliott> I demand shutup be unbanned
16:53:00 <elliott> oerjan: ffs, I already agreed to the compromise
16:53:42 <oerjan> which is why i implemented a sound and reasonable policy to handle this, see the rest of the logs
16:53:48 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | And another?.
16:53:49 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
16:53:56 <elliott> oerjan: the policy is not sound and reasonable.
16:54:14 <oerjan> well i may have been a _tad_ ironic
16:54:52 <elliott> oerjan: well, you could get rid of antioptbot and I could implement the compromise today, or I could just keep making optbot work indirectly to counter antioptbot, and never implement the compromise.
16:54:52 <optbot> elliott: arbitrarily big, sure, but finite things are usually closed under operations
16:55:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:55:30 <elliott> oerjan: you already banned antiantioptbot, so "I'm not taking a stance here" isn't really a reply.
16:55:44 <oerjan> i didn't say i wasn't taking a stance
16:55:53 <elliott> oerjan: then that is my position
16:56:29 <oerjan> elliott: YOU ARE NO FUN
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16:56:55 <elliott> oerjan: i'm not interested in drama, and Gregor has just created more.
16:57:15 <oerjan> elliott: i'll ban antioptbot the moment you implement the fix
16:57:36 <elliott> oerjan: Then I'd rather rework optbot to fool antioptbot.
16:58:14 <oerjan> elliott: for once i'm trying to _not_ be serious in response to the silliness here and you suddenly demand i be
16:59:13 <oerjan> btw your fooling needs to be clever; reverting antioptbot's topic changes will be considered evading the antiantioptbot ban >:D
17:00:01 <elliott> oerjan: I am not interested in implementing a compromise given by somebody who actively makes related administrative actions but does not ban a bot that disrupts the operation of the bot in question.
17:00:22 <Ilari> Holy shit: APNIC (in about last 30 days): 30.4M. All the other RIRs _combined_: 5.4M.
17:01:16 <Ilari> Unless some other RIR has mega-allocation for today, that figure is going to look even more lopsided tomorrow.
17:01:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, actively makes related administrative actions?
17:01:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: banned antiantioptbot
17:01:57 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
17:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Honestly, you're in such a ridiculous state of high dudgeon.
17:02:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not the one who instigated drama here, Gregor is.
17:02:16 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:02:26 -!- optbot has joined.
17:02:26 -!- optbot has changed nick to x3gp6amaTOPIC.
17:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you created optbot and have neither implemented the compromise nor taken it offline.
17:03:07 -!- x3gp6amaTOPIC has changed nick to optbotPRIVMSG.
17:03:07 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*antiantio@*.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net.
17:03:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When I agreed to the compromise I was FUCKING TIRED.
17:03:24 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
17:03:39 <elliott> Fuck you, I don't spend every minute of my day changing optbot.
17:03:39 <optbotPRIVMSG> elliott: interpreter might let us support more languages
17:03:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, would it have killed you to take down optbot for the night?
17:03:46 <optbotPRIVMSG> Phantom_Hoover: Oh well... De gustibus no est disputandum, I guess.
17:04:01 <elliott> oerjan: that doesn't change the fact that you've still made decisions
17:04:13 -!- optbotPRIVMSG has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:04:24 -!- optbot has joined.
17:04:24 -!- optbot has changed nick to uuc7f8fwTOPIC.
17:04:24 -!- uuc7f8fwTOPIC has changed nick to optbot.
17:05:08 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:05:21 -!- optbot has joined.
17:05:21 -!- optbot has changed nick to rlzf2s4d.
17:05:21 -!- rlzf2s4d has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I have a system for jumps and absolute pointer-movements.
17:05:21 -!- rlzf2s4d has changed nick to optbot.
17:06:25 <elliott> oerjan: The agreement was that optbot's operation would continue unimpinged if I implemented the compromise in a reasonable timeframe; this has obviously not happened. All antioptbot does is create drama over the fact that - what? I haven't adjusted it for, like, a whole day?
17:06:25 <optbot> elliott: I also plan on making it possible to remove all the current regex'es and define your own
17:06:58 <oerjan> elliott: _i_ wasn't impinging on optbot
17:06:59 <optbot> oerjan: I rather like it
17:07:30 <elliott> oerjan: Are you saying that optbot's operation was (before this hack) unimpinged?
17:07:55 <elliott> oerjan: And really, you basically are; you banned antiantioptbot but won't ban antioptbot, which is as close to tacit approval of the impingement as you can get.
17:08:21 <oerjan> elliott: i was implementing a silly random rule
17:08:45 <elliott> oerjan: A silly random rule that AFAICT amounts to "antioptbot stays"
17:09:00 <oerjan> which in retrospect was a bad idea. i thought certain people here _liked_ silliness.
17:09:09 <elliott> oerjan: Applying silliness to idiotic drama?
17:09:11 <oerjan> well that _was_ the random outcome
17:09:45 <elliott> If you want a dramaless compromise (does Gregor have nothing better to complain about?), ban the stupid anti- bot; otherwise I can't see any reason to implement a compromise if this is just going to turn into an idiotic botwar.
17:09:54 <Lymia> Would you kill me if I brought in a stronger antioptbot?
17:09:59 <elliott> Fucking non-linear message authoring.
17:10:46 <oerjan> Lymia: i just unbanned antiantioptbot, in case you didn't notice
17:10:59 <oerjan> apparently this didn't stop elliott
17:11:22 <elliott> oerjan: If you think unbanning antiantioptbot is going to "stop" me, I question whether you're actually reading anything I say.
17:11:44 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:11:51 <oerjan> elliott: also i find your complaints about drama immensely hypocritical.
17:12:13 <elliott> oerjan: Sorry -- from now on I will try and create as much drama as possible, the alternative is being a hypocrite.
17:12:40 <oerjan> elliott: you are certainly living by it, at least
17:12:51 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I don't see how it could, I'm not doing anything disallowed by the C standard so unless it's listed as unsafe in the compiler docs it should be fine.
17:12:52 -!- antioptbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I have a system for jumps and absolute pointer-movements.
17:13:16 <elliott> oerjan: I fixed my bot because despite you clearly wanting it to be broken you won't actually ban it.
17:13:50 <Lymia> Who's bot is optbot?
17:14:09 <elliott> oerjan: Your actions amount to tacit approval of antioptbot breaking my bot, so clearly you don't want optbot, yet you haven't banned it for some reason, so I will continue to fix my bot.
17:14:09 <optbot> elliott: and give the function the arguments we get
17:14:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
17:14:23 <elliott> I assume "you are certainly living by it" was you referring to me fixing optbot.
17:14:23 <optbot> elliott: it's worthless
17:14:29 -!- antiantioptbot2 has joined.
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17:14:55 -!- optbot has changed nick to zb1gf9xx.
17:14:55 -!- zb1gf9xx has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | never used fortran.
17:14:55 -!- zb1gf9xx has changed nick to optbot.
17:15:04 <elliott> So why didn't it work a second ago. Oh well.
17:17:48 <Ilari> Whee. Picture of Nuclear Power Plant exploding. :-/
17:18:26 -!- superantioptbot has joined.
17:18:30 -!- optbot has changed nick to ab6etp0v.
17:18:30 -!- ab6etp0v has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | tombom, thanks :).
17:18:30 -!- ab6etp0v has changed nick to optbot.
17:18:30 -!- superantioptbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | never used fortran.
17:18:36 -!- superantioptbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:18:45 <Ilari> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7661?nocomments
17:19:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
17:19:15 <elliott> the plant did not explode, only the outer containment building.
17:19:25 <oerjan> <elliott> I assume "you are certainly living by it" was you referring to me fixing optbot. <-- no it was referring to your _still_ incessant drama queen babbling.
17:19:26 <optbot> oerjan: Is it worth using powered minecarts?
17:19:45 <elliott> oerjan: Define "incessant drama queen babbling"; you mean "not dropping the subject"?
17:20:05 <oerjan> you are apparently incapable of recognizing in yourself the same faults that you complain of in others.
17:20:24 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:21:57 <oerjan> i appear to have painted myself into a corner here.
17:22:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
17:22:36 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*antioptbo@*.wmiscable.net.
17:22:58 <Lymia> So can I insert the super-mode of antioptbot now?
17:23:29 <cheater99> oerjan: will that fix elliott's incessant drama queen babbling?
17:24:09 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*cheater@*.adsl.alicedsl.de.
17:24:17 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*optbot@208.78.103.*.
17:24:34 <Lymia> I think myndzi missed.
17:24:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a consequence of different justification and my long nick.
17:25:19 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
17:25:28 <Lymia> My client's set up to align all text.
17:25:38 <Lymia> With no reguard to the person's nickname.
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18:05:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
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18:28:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: that was awesome
18:28:20 <oklopol> i wish there was a whole game on that concept
18:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I keep typing in the URL for the Herobrine logs.
18:29:26 <cheater99> the pinball at the end was the best
18:29:39 <cheater99> it was like the most amazing culmination ever
18:29:48 <cheater99> speaking of crazy stuff, has anyone here watched The Other Guys?
18:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, like, "you're an ordinary man, living in New York, until... FRICTION IS NEGATED"
18:30:03 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBsJUT-K0YA
18:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "You must get to your girlfriend's house because you have the standard video game protagonist priorities."
18:31:10 <coppro> ais523: Yeah, I definitely should.
18:31:30 * Phantom_Hoover checks if he accidentally ignored ai... wait, he's not even online.
18:34:27 <oklopol> saneless in the head that dude.
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18:37:06 <Gregor> http://recruitcoders.com/ Slogan: "Reach for competence". Worst slogan ever?
18:37:53 <oerjan> s/for/beyond/, would that make it better or worse: discuss.
18:40:40 <oerjan> hm where did "forward to the future" come from again
18:41:46 <oerjan> dammit that phrase is just too common
18:42:02 <Gregor> Look backward to the future!
18:42:31 <oerjan> hm i have a hunch it may have been douglas adams or terry pratchett
18:44:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, although by troll logic that is blatantly false.
18:45:15 <oklopol> what's so funny about forward to the future?
18:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it's either stupidly true or hilariously false (if you're a troll).
18:46:04 <oerjan> it was from Johnny and the Dead, apparently
18:46:56 <oerjan> the motto of Amalgamated Consolidated Holdings
18:47:56 <oerjan> sorry, *United Amalgamated Consolidated Holdings
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18:47:59 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: conclusion: Yakety Sax makes everything funnier than it already was.
18:49:06 <oerjan> quintopia: this is _not_ news.
18:50:37 <Gregor> It's not hugely redundant, as one implies the other but not vice-versa.
18:50:50 <Gregor> As "forward" does not imply the fourth dimension :P
18:51:09 <quintopia> oerjan: it's news to me. i can't wait to see tsunami footage set to yakety sax >.>
18:52:10 <oerjan> Gregor: it is, however, the kind of phrase that becomes a cliché the first time it's used
18:53:14 <oerjan> which is also the case with that "reach for competence"
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19:00:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, nah, the humour there is the fact that competence is really not something you should have to reach for.
19:07:29 <oklopol> i didn't get that you didn't get that they didn't get that competence is really not something you should have to reach for
19:07:33 -!- Zuu has joined.
19:08:13 <oklopol> i should do my group theory homework
19:08:21 <oklopol> but what if it's too hard? maybe i'll do it later
19:09:18 <oerjan> have you read my :()^ construction at the Underload page? it's almost group theory.
19:09:46 <oklopol> think that'd help me with the exercises?
19:10:06 <oklopol> it's representation theory
19:12:33 <quintopia> oh you finally wrote up the minimization
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19:29:01 <Ilari> Allocations in February/March according to latest joint RIR delegated file: APNIC: 36 302 848. RIPE: 10 034 336. ARIN: 5 760 768. AFRINIC: 629 760. LACNIC: 373 504.
19:31:53 <Ilari> At this rate, RIPE would last about 3-4 months.
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20:08:22 * Sgeo_ rages at a fun looking OpenCourseWare course not having all of the lecture notes
20:11:47 * Sgeo_ checks out University of Reddit
20:12:00 * Sgeo_ mindboggles at there being a course on IRC
20:20:09 <Sgeo_> Multivariable calculus is listed on OCW Scholar's page
20:20:09 -!- coppro has joined.
20:20:29 <Sgeo_> "OCW Scholar courses are designed for independent learners who have few additional resources available to them"
20:20:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:21:05 <Sgeo_> Is Khan Academy's differential equations stuff and OCW's multivariable calculus viable to do at the same time
20:23:22 <impomatic> Unusual name for a Forth compiler http://code.google.com/p/durexforth
20:28:57 <Phantom_Hoover> (Seriously, if you haven't even *touched* on abstract algebra by the age of 21, you're headed in entirely the wrong direction; you are more than capable of handling it.)
20:31:40 <quintopia> does gmail export everything in their web interface
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20:39:18 <quintopia> apparently there are a lot of immature third party APIs
20:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You mean they use lots of exclamation marks and throw tantrums all the time?
20:43:10 <quintopia> AnD aLl ThE mEtHoDs ArE nAmEd LiKe ThIs
20:44:19 <quintopia> i really want an email client that forwards all of gmail's features but requires no mouse.
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21:02:03 <quintopia> Gregor: the katamari hack is so much awesomer than websplat. how come you couldn't be so awesome?
21:03:02 -!- jcp has joined.
21:03:44 <Gregor> Wow, every Google result for "sobblecopter" is me. I knew I invented it, but I didn't think that I /solely/ had invented it.
21:04:43 <quintopia> tbf, websplat is more fun to play and doesn't slow ff3.x to a crawl :P
21:05:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I have concluded that tau is innately inferior to pi because writing \tau/2 is harder than writing 2\pi.
21:14:04 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
21:14:17 <pikhq_> Strange, seems to me they have the same number of strokes.
21:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, but it requires line spacing to do properly which is horrible to deal with when you're writing in pen.
21:15:59 -!- mdivhx has left (?).
21:16:16 <pikhq_> Quick, what's a quarter of a circle in radians? >:D
21:16:40 <pikhq_> And that makes sense how?
21:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not that retarded, and changing it isn't worth the effort.
21:17:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like calling complex numbers imaginary: if it's enough to hang you up, mathematics isn't the thing for you.
21:17:58 <pikhq_> "Illogical things shouldn't bother you in math"
21:18:12 <oklopol> it's not at all like calling complex numbers imaginary
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21:19:18 <ais523> some complex numbers are imaginary!
21:19:25 <ais523> like 2i (or 2j if you're an engineer)
21:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It was a rather poor choice of constant to start with, but not actually *stupid*.
21:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It just caught on before radius became prevalent over diameter.
21:21:30 <oklopol> it's not stupid, it's absolutely retarded
21:22:35 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Which of these things is not like the other: 1/2gt^2, 1/2kx^2, 1/2mv^2, \pi*r^2
21:23:16 <Phantom_Hoover> The former 3 are all integrals, although admittedly pi*r^2 might be derivable from that.
21:23:21 <oklopol> to have to remember whether it's half a turn or two turns
21:23:39 <oklopol> always have to get my math books
21:23:58 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: None of them are integrals, but all of them can be derived *via* an integral.
21:24:58 <pikhq_> Integral of 2\pi*r, of course.
21:27:23 <pikhq_> You fucking know the answer.
21:27:35 <pikhq_> Now stop being thicker than a nuclear reactor's containing wall.
21:28:00 <fizzie> But the exp(i*pi) + 1 = 0 thing; there was some sort of "most beautiful formula in mathematics" poster with that on it, on the wall in the maths classroom in high school. That's going to be suboptimal as "exp(i*tau) = 1" or some-such.
21:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I love it when people talk about that equation without even explaining it.
21:29:19 <fizzie> In other news, floating-point numbers are depressing:
21:29:20 <fizzie> ans = -1.0000e+00 + 1.2246e-16i
21:29:24 <oklopol> what, integral of a polynomial?
21:29:30 <fizzie> (Serves me right for using an engineer's tool.)
21:30:04 <pikhq_> It's a hell of a lot easier to just show the equation than to explain what e^{i\theta} is in the general case, and why it matters. :P
21:30:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, anyway, I don't *disagree* that pi is a poor choice of constant, just that it's not worth the effort to change it.
21:31:08 <oklopol> what does e have to do with this?
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21:31:26 <pikhq_> oklopol: e^(i*pi)+1=0; it's Euler's identity.
21:31:52 <oklopol> fizzie: exp(i*tau) = 1 is much prettier
21:32:00 <oklopol> pikhq_: yes, what does that have to do with anything?
21:32:05 <fizzie> oklopol: No it's not; it lacks the 0.
21:32:18 <fizzie> And writing it as 1+0 is just silly.
21:32:20 <pikhq_> fizzie: exp(i*tau)-1=0
21:32:28 <oklopol> fizzie: it might be syntactically uglier, but conceptually it's much nicer that way
21:32:40 <oklopol> yeah you even get a minus!
21:32:44 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: No I don't. It's right there.
21:32:55 <pikhq_> Between the "-" and the "=".
21:33:12 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Fuck off. :P
21:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (Minus signs, now there are something which shouldn't exist in their current form.)
21:33:42 <fizzie> But the point is (according to the poster, anyway) that there's 0, 1, i, e, pi; and +, *, ^; in it. Nobody mentioned a - anywhere.
21:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> *somethings... no... erm... I have no idea what that should be.
21:33:50 <oklopol> but seriously, can someone explain where e came to play here :D
21:34:07 <fizzie> (Of course the poster didn't exactly explain why those things make it pretty.)
21:34:11 <oklopol> suddenly, fizzie and Phantom_Hoover started talking about e at the same time
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21:34:30 <pikhq_> oklopol: ... *Well*, Euler's identity is commonly cited as being an extraordinarily beautiful equation in mathematics.
21:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It's almost like there's some kind of transfer of information between us.
21:35:02 <pikhq_> oklopol: And using tau instead of pi as your proportionality constant for circles changes Euler's identity a bit.
21:35:22 <oklopol> but why did you suddenly start talking about e?
21:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps in the form of a public IRC channel allowing one of us to see what the other has said and react accordingly.
21:35:36 <pikhq_> You either get e^(i*tau/2)+1=0 (if you want it to be an equivalent formula) or e^(i*tau)=1 (if you want a roughly as-elegant formula)
21:36:30 <pikhq_> oklopol: Because e^(i*pi)+1=0. What more do you want from us, an explanation of how that works? (which I can offer with ease)
21:36:40 <oklopol> "<fizzie> But the exp(i*pi) + 1 = 0 thing; there was some sort of "most beautiful formula in mathematics" poster with that on it, on the wall in the maths classroom in high school. That's going to be suboptimal as "exp(i*tau) = 1" or some-such." "<Phantom_Hoover> I love it when people talk about that equation without even explaining it." <<< was this an answer to FIZZIE?
21:37:31 <oklopol> i thought pikhq_'s integrals of polynomials somehow inspired you and fizzie to simultaneously start talking about e
21:37:50 <oklopol> because he had to have integrated the polynomial using the identity exp(i*pi) + 1 = 0
21:39:49 * quintopia votes tau as nicer than pi, but agrees that no one cares.
21:40:52 <oklopol> well quarter-turns are the most used angle
21:41:14 <oklopol> half-turns aren't even an angle, they are a fucking line
21:41:28 <oklopol> ^ that's actually the best argument ever for this pi / tau thing
21:41:30 <quintopia> yes, but then you have to have 4s everywhere you have 2s now. which is just ugly
21:41:35 -!- bitmsk has left (?).
21:41:46 <oklopol> 4 is _surprisingly_ pretty
21:41:47 <quintopia> pi was chosen as the first letter in "perimeter"
21:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Requesting that pi be changed is failing to see the forest for the trees.
21:42:04 <quintopia> so pi should be the length of the perimeter of a unit circle
21:42:06 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: not requesting that pi be changed is being a retard tho
21:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, you have the vast edifice of wrongness that is mathematics education, and you go for *that*?
21:42:19 <fizzie> oklopol: Also http://p.zem.fi/ji0w (and why does the rendering change if I reload that)
21:42:32 <quintopia> but it's not like having pi like it is hurts anyone
21:42:35 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: can't i go for both?
21:42:48 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: So, your argument is: "Some things are much worse. Therefore there is no point in fixing this."
21:43:08 <oklopol> i don't do complex analysis, i don't mind breaking backwards-compatibility and rendering mathematicians useless for a few years.
21:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, because the effort would be better spent on so many other things.
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21:43:45 <pikhq_> Especially if you extrapolate to other things. "There are starving children in Africa, therefore there is no point in stopping you from beating your wife."
21:43:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: like having to multiply by two all the time?
21:44:03 <oklopol> i don't wanna spend every waking our multiplying by two
21:44:16 <oklopol> shifting bits is for computers
21:44:21 <fizzie> I don't want to wake up and find oklopol furiously multiplying by two in the corner.
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21:47:37 <oklopol> anyhow i don't really care if pi is changed or not, conventions don't matter at all in mathematics, because you only need to use them in the short reports you write to other mathematicians (say publications), not in your own work, and if you write say a book you can just choose your own convention.
21:48:18 <pikhq_> You can always just write "let \tau=2\pi" and go from there, anyways.
21:48:19 <oklopol> but it certainly is a particularly retarded convention
21:50:36 <oklopol> but e should totally be 3*e
21:50:59 <oklopol> then, we'd get division and 2 in the equation
21:52:06 <quintopia> i heard someone argue that \int 1/x = ln x + C is somehow more fundamental a concept than the actual value of euler's constant.
21:52:14 <oklopol> or even that ^3 so we get cube root and 3
21:54:33 <oklopol> the value of euler's constant is not very interesting, no, the exponential function is interesting
21:55:24 <oklopol> e is just what it does on reals
21:56:07 <oklopol> that is, we can show that the exponential function corresponds to the conventional exponentials w.r.t. base a certain base e
21:56:32 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> e should be expressed as the polynomial expansion." <<< what?
21:56:59 <pikhq_> All that's really interesting about e is that the integral of e^x is e^x. Everything else really derives from there.
21:57:26 <pikhq_> Oh, and the derivative, obviously.
21:57:27 <oklopol> oh well that's outside my understanding, but i thought you were referring to the exponential function \sum 1/(n!) * x^n which is obviously its own derivative
21:57:51 <oklopol> and can easily be shown to converge for all x
21:58:16 <oklopol> when you look at its behavior on reals, you note that it's just exponentiation (well assuming you know how to do the algebra, i'm sure it's a bit tedious)
21:58:35 <oklopol> euler's identity is of course rather trivial to see
21:58:45 <oklopol> i don't get why people praise it so much
21:59:06 <pikhq_> Of course, that infinity series is nothing more than the fairly obvious Taylor series.
21:59:38 <oklopol> yeah the taylor serious i gave
22:00:13 <pikhq_> Correcting myself, there. :P
22:00:32 <oklopol> okay yeah then also i should've nothing said.
22:00:51 <pikhq_> It all comes down to e being the number such that d/dx(e^x)=d^x, and everything else of interest is a consequence of that.
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22:02:30 <oklopol> actually i'm not at all sure euler's identity is easy to prove from the taylor series definition!
22:03:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you also need to know the Taylor series for sin and cos, but they're easy too.
22:03:17 <oklopol> you mean use some geometrical intuition?
22:03:28 <oklopol> then it's of course trivial, but that's not a proof
22:03:55 <oklopol> i've seen it so i know it's not very long, but i don't really see how it's done
22:04:02 <oklopol> yeah that's basically by definition
22:04:28 <pikhq_> You plug in "ix" to the Taylor series and do some simplification, and you get the Taylor series for cos(x) plus i times the Taylor series for sin(x).
22:04:37 <ais523> it's actually just alternate terms
22:05:00 <ais523> as in, every second term of the series for e^ix is either a member of the series for cos x, or for i sin x
22:05:15 <oklopol> i just recall you use every second term and then some -1 shit
22:05:26 <quintopia> i just noticed that patashu posted in the tau manifesto thread on xkcd fora. where is patashu?
22:05:36 <pikhq_> sin(x)=1-x^2/2!+x^4/4!-x^6/6!+...; cos(x)=x-x^3/3!+x^5/5!-x^7/7!+...
22:05:52 <ais523> quintopia: he's relatively active in at least one esolang-unrelated forum I'm also relatively active in
22:06:00 <ais523> although mostly by reading
22:06:13 <pikhq_> And e^ix is, of course, 1+ix+(ix)^2/2!＋(ix)^3/3!+...
22:06:33 <oklopol> i'm wondering where the pi disappears
22:06:33 <pikhq_> =1+ix-x^2/2!+ix^3/3!+..
22:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "sin/cos" meaning "sin and cos", of course, not tan :P
22:07:24 <oklopol> e^(i*pi) = cos(pi) + i sin(pi), then what?
22:07:25 <quintopia> ais523: since you're here can you tell me how to make apt-get work again? dpkg freezes trying to unpack this package and i can't remove the package without it saying "hey you should finish installing this first derp!"
22:07:33 <pikhq_> =(1-x^2/2+x^4/4!-x^6/6!+...)+i(x-x^3/3!+x^5/5!-x^7/7!+...)
22:07:53 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, that's what we're trying to prove
22:08:10 <oklopol> if you use geometrical intuition or already know the answer, of course it's easy :D
22:08:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, if you want it from, like, really really basic principles, it won't fit on IRC.
22:09:27 <ais523> quintopia: try to reconfigure the package first (dpkg --configure packagename); if that doesn't work, use dpkg --remove --force-reinstreq package to force an uninstall
22:09:31 <pikhq_> You define sin and cos, as had been done by the ancient Greeks, and then it follows trivially.
22:09:38 <oklopol> well that's the part you need to prove, we haven't done anything yet except rewrite e as two more complicated-looking functions
22:09:53 <ais523> (forcing an uninstall is a bad idea normally as it doesn't guarantee to uninstall cleanly, but it may be the only option if the package is really screwed up)
22:10:03 <pikhq_> oklopol: Okay, are you seriously doing this?
22:10:14 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Start from ZFC.
22:10:28 <oklopol> pikhq_: well i just realized it isn't easy to do, and you disagreed
22:10:52 <pikhq_> oklopol: It's easy to do because knowledge of sin and cos was already available to Euler.
22:11:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, basically nothing is easy to do if you demand it be derived from scratch.
22:11:31 <pikhq_> oklopol: And, indeed, about as obvious and readily doable as arithmetic or algebra.
22:11:46 <oklopol> well i'm asking you to explain how it comes from the definitions, and you haven't even told me what definition you use for pi
22:12:15 <oklopol> if you use the geometrical definition, that's fine, but then euler's identity is just a definition
22:12:18 <quintopia> ais523: dpkg: error processing streamripper (--configure): package streamripper is not ready for configuration cannot configure (current status `half-installed')
22:12:29 <oklopol> + a bit of trivial algebra you already mentioned
22:13:56 <pikhq_> oklopol: Just extrapolation to absurdity of what you're already doing.
22:14:30 <pikhq_> It's a bit like saying "Well, how do you know that *NULL is a segfault? Start by defining C."
22:14:53 <oklopol> well it certainly was that, but saying something is easy, and skipping the part where the actual work is because "it's just zfc stuff" is sort of stupid.
22:15:11 <quintopia> ais523: finally found the option to force-remove it
22:15:15 <pikhq_> We've already demonstrated that it was likely easy to Euler.
22:15:23 <pikhq_> Keep in mind, *he already had cosine and sine available*.
22:15:31 <pikhq_> And the Taylor series.
22:15:39 <oklopol> well i don't really know what framework he was doing shit in
22:15:46 <ais523> quintopia: I did tell you what the option was in the same line
22:16:29 <pikhq_> It really was just a matter of going "Huh, wonder what e^ix is. Let's try this."
22:16:33 <quintopia> the correct command was dpkg --force-remove-reinstreq -r <package>
22:17:01 <quintopia> (there is an extra remove in there for who know what reason)
22:18:30 <pikhq_> oklopol: He had calculus, he had power series, he had Taylor series, he had algebra, he had geometry, he had trigonometry. Now why do you want us to define what Euler would have taken for granted 300 years ago?
22:18:52 <pikhq_> For the purpose of showing that it wasn't hard for Euler.
22:19:05 <oklopol> because i don't the definition of pi we're using?
22:19:24 <quintopia> someone suggest a simple sound recorder app that saves arbitrarily long files as mp3. "
22:19:35 <quintopia> "simple" is defined as "small and doesn't break a lot"
22:20:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12249172#_blank
22:20:06 <oklopol> i seriously don't know what pi is
22:20:20 <fizzie> quintopia: If by "extra remove" you mean that there's both --force-remove-reinstreq and -r, that's because categorically the "--force-things" flags only specify things that can or can not be done, while the "-r" is the actual action.
22:20:20 <oklopol> i just know some of its properties
22:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Does noöne in that article have any slight doubts about *starting paedo hunts against anyone with unusually good grammar*?
22:20:55 <quintopia> fizzie: no i mean the extra string "remove" inside "--force-remove-reinstreq" since its a flag that's only gonna get used when removing anyway...
22:21:07 <pikhq_> Congrats, the Egyptians knew more about geometry than you when they were building the pyramids.
22:21:17 <pikhq_> And they thought the Sun was a god.
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22:21:47 <quintopia> "--force-noreinstreq" would be clearer
22:22:22 <fizzie> quintopia: That doesn't really make any sense. Force to do what about packages in the "reinstreq" state?
22:22:49 <quintopia> didn't know it was a package state
22:23:09 <quintopia> i was thinking "force there to be no reinstallation requirement"
22:23:35 <quintopia> so possibly "--force-ignore-reinstreq"
22:23:47 <fizzie> Well, that would make sense.
22:24:29 <fizzie> Also regarding the other thing, sox (or the "rec" command specialization of it) might work for long files.
22:25:29 <fizzie> It has quite a few options, so the man page is bit on the long side.
22:25:53 <quintopia> running dpkg with debug didn't show any obvious errors...
22:26:30 <fizzie> At least some sox builds I've seen do MP3; but I'm not sure if they all do, due to patents and such.
22:27:13 <quintopia> there is apparently a tool called saydate that doesn't do anything but play the date over the sound card via TTS
22:28:00 <pikhq_> o.O' Some of the MP3 patents expire in 2017.
22:28:17 <pikhq_> MP3 *itself* was first released in 1993.
22:28:26 <pikhq_> Someone actually got a patent on MP3 after it had been out for 4 years.
22:29:07 <pikhq_> Oh, wait, sorry, *1991*.
22:29:16 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:29:46 <pikhq_> quintopia: Moot. It's unpatentable outside of the US.
22:30:14 -!- variable has joined.
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22:30:51 <pikhq_> But somehow they got patents anyways.
22:31:04 * pikhq_ votes we nuke patent law.
22:32:07 <quintopia> sox is really cool and really weird
22:32:51 <quintopia> but i don't see how one can crop an audio file at just the right place with it
22:33:06 <fizzie> Typically with the "trim" filter.
22:33:20 <oklopol> have i told about that time i wrote some python code while having sex
22:33:35 <quintopia> like actually typed it, or mentally composed it?
22:33:49 <fizzie> "sox input.wav output.wav trim 20 30" == extract 30 seconds starting from second 20.
22:34:09 <fizzie> (Can be specified in samples too for more accuracy.)
22:34:16 <quintopia> fizzie: how do you say "cut 36 samples off the end of the file"?
22:34:29 <oklopol> quintopia: actually typed it.
22:34:54 <quintopia> oklopol: that sounds like the nerdiest thing ever. what did the code do
22:35:18 -!- cpressey has set topic: Try out yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
22:35:41 <oklopol> i said "i can't have sex because i have to code this thing. unless it's fine if i do both" and it was; it then soon became just sex so i guess i was cheated out of a nice coding time
22:35:48 <cpressey> oklopol: i assume the goat was not amused
22:35:58 <oklopol> the code was just some part of some silly game or something, don't remember
22:36:28 <cpressey> does lambdabot let you leave messages for people in here?
22:36:35 <ais523> now I'm going to have to ask what yoob does
22:36:40 <ais523> to know if I should click on the link
22:36:43 <ais523> cpressey: memoserv does
22:36:46 <ais523> although some people miss the message
22:36:52 <cpressey> ais523: it's an implementation of 14 esolangs in a java applet
22:36:58 <ais523> oh, that does sound awesome
22:37:09 <cpressey> 13 or 14 or some number like that
22:37:15 <fizzie> quintopia: Well, uh... "sox input.wav output.wav reverse : trim 36s : reverse" might work.
22:37:23 <ais523> even though java applets officially no longer exist
22:37:37 <fizzie> (The "trim" filter doesn't take end-relative offsets, unfortunately.)
22:37:41 <cpressey> i know lambdabot can leave messages for people in #haskell, i just don't know about here (actually i have no reason to believe it wouldn't here, but i forget the syntax)
22:37:43 <quintopia> fizzie: sounds lame. trim -36s seems more logical
22:38:21 <ais523> cpressey: is the thing all those languages have in common that they're two-dimensional?
22:38:24 <cpressey> ais523: well, darn. what have they been replaced with? btw two of the esolangs in yoob right now are yours (BackFlip and Black)
22:38:38 <fizzie> quintopia: Sure, it's just that most of sox is written to work with potentially endless streams, so you can't find the concept of an end very often.
22:38:41 <ais523> cpressey: they've been replaced by Java Web Start, which is a bad idea on many levels
22:38:45 <ais523> although not completely useless
22:38:56 <ais523> mostly, because not only is it not a straight replacement, it's something completely different
22:39:04 <cpressey> ais523: yes; although the framework isn't restricted to 2d languages, it has better support for them than for text-based
22:39:05 <quintopia> fizzie: so what does reverse do? :P
22:39:35 <fizzie> That's not part of the "most".
22:39:47 <cpressey> ais523: i remember asking you about that. well, ... as long as applets continue to work. the current implementation can be run locally too, i'm sure i could JWS-ify it if need be
22:40:35 <pikhq_> Accelerating pace from APNIC...
22:40:37 <ais523> JWSifying something isn't normally too hard
22:40:44 <pikhq_> We may well see APNIC depletion in April.
22:40:46 <ais523> but there are so many insane design decisions
22:41:05 <ais523> the Microsoft Internet Explorer integration was a particularly stupid one, although it works (less "well") in other browsers too
22:41:20 <ais523> where "well" means "runs without confirmation on the basis that the java interp's meant to sandbox the program"
22:41:49 <ais523> which is all well and good, except that it allows things - by default - that web browsing shouldn't allow, such as creating new windows
22:42:14 <cpressey> that sounds like a step backwards, yeah
22:42:50 <fizzie> quintopia: Okay, it's a bit lame. The silence-trimming command can remove stuff from the end of the file too, not sure if you could abuse that (the syntax is quite complicated). Also possibly the :s shouldn't be there. It's not the most user-friendly program ever.
22:43:06 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
22:43:41 <quintopia> cpressey: add spiral to the list! i already have a java implementation of it lying around this hard disk somewhere...
22:43:47 <fizzie> (The : seems to be related to something where you have multiple chains of multiple effects.)
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22:44:37 <cpressey> @tell Sgeo My friend says the "Chinese" characters in that dialog box of yours ( http://i.imgur.com/fT4Wm.png ) are almost certainly gibberish; many of them are too rare to occur so frequently.
22:45:47 <quintopia> man, i want something that lets you edit waveforms directly, like audacity, but without all the filters and effects and bloat. or something like windows sndrec32 without the length limitation and with the ability to save as mp3.
22:46:21 <cpressey> quintopia: http://www.quintopia.net/JSpI.java ? i'll consider it
22:46:28 <fizzie> "rec blah.mp3" is pretty close to that.
22:46:34 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:47:23 <quintopia> cpressey: i keep forgetting that my website is up. but i think there was a more recent version that fixed a bug.
22:47:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: can't stay long, just announcing a link in the topic and leaving a message for Sgeo
22:48:57 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: interp for a bunch of 2D esolangs
22:48:59 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: it's an implementation of 13 or 14 esolangs in a java applet
22:49:44 <Sgeo> cpressey, you have a message for me?
22:49:44 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:50:05 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/
22:50:30 <quintopia> cpressey: does it highlight the pointer location as it executes?
22:50:43 <augur> i have to add to those puzzles too
22:51:18 <quintopia> it basically does what my spiral gui app did then, but maybe without some spiral-specific stuff
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23:00:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:02:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:06:04 <quintopia> it has language-specific stuff for every language
23:06:39 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:06:54 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:11:02 <quintopia> lol the noit o' mnain worb thing seems awesome. the > seems to serve as a maxwell's demon in the "pressure" example
23:11:09 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
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23:13:20 <ais523> it is an awesome language
23:13:29 <ais523> I'm not sure what its probability of being TC is
23:13:37 <ais523> e.g., can you make an 80% BF interpreter in it with a suitable infinite program?
23:14:53 <Gregor> Is "80% BF" slang for BF without I/O?
23:16:17 <quintopia> ais523: i think you could make a BF interpreter that succeeds with probability 1 actually.
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23:16:48 <quintopia> you can implement arbitrary circuits in it...one of the examples is a transistor
23:18:50 <ais523> it's not a reliable transistor
23:18:57 <ais523> and doesn't act the same way as normal transistors
23:19:04 <ais523> in particular, I'm not sure if it even has a fanout above 1
23:19:24 <ais523> if the fanout's less than 1, you couldn't use it in a loop
23:19:34 <oklopol> i'm sure that's easy to explain
23:19:35 <quintopia> although as the implementation page indicates, unless we solve the wire-crossing problem, it is only TC in 3+ dimensions
23:19:36 <ais523> oklopol: the number of things you can connect the output of a circuit to
23:19:46 <ais523> that are of the same nature as the circuit itself
23:19:49 <ais523> before it starts malfunctioning
23:20:10 <ais523> typically it's somewhere between 10 and 200 for electronic circuits
23:21:42 <quintopia> i think you can get fanout 2 with nearly the same reliability of the fanout 1 version
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23:22:00 <quintopia> but yeah, i see what your complaint is
23:22:49 <quintopia> however, i still stay you can get a BF interpreter with prob. 1-eps, where eps is a function of the length of time you allow for the system to "settle down" before making a measurement.
23:23:21 <quintopia> for instance you could require that a ! gets hit 1000 times before you output the result
23:24:41 <oklopol> you mean like, you can make the likelihood of an error happening decrease, as the program is executed, fast enough that altogether you get 1-e probability for the whole run being correct, for any program
23:25:08 <oklopol> because that sounds feasible enough, although i never quite understood this tcness thing
23:25:16 <ais523> something I've been wondering about: Funge-98, with the difference that all commands but ; have a 50% chance of doing nothing rather than what they're meant to do
23:25:18 <ais523> I suspect that it's still TC
23:25:22 <ais523> although much more annoying to write in
23:26:52 <quintopia> well, if you execute the program 2^n times where n is the number of instructions, you expect to get a result one of those times. and you can make the probability you don't get a result arbitrarily low by executing it enough times. therefore, i'd say that would also be at least 1-e TC.
23:27:49 <oklopol> the crucial thing in this kind of stuff is usually to make sure that the probability of making an error gets smaller and smaller
23:28:08 <oklopol> so you can have arbitrarily long runs with a constant prob of failing
23:28:22 <oklopol> since funge can modify its code, this might actually be doable
23:28:26 <Sgeo> Is it ok to learn differential equations (from Khan Academy) at the same time as multivariable calculus (from OCW)?
23:29:11 <oklopol> (Sgeo: i'd suggest reading a book instead)
23:29:25 <Sgeo> Books aren't free
23:29:53 <oklopol> there's this new thing called illegal piracy
23:30:25 <oklopol> it's like stealing but YOU are the victim
23:31:30 <quintopia> it's like stilling but John dies in the end.
23:32:29 <oklopol> Sgeo: but really it doesn't matter much what you're doing, as long as you have a long list of problems to work on
23:33:01 <Sgeo> I hate working on problems
23:33:07 <Sgeo> I guess I should force myself to though
23:33:13 <oklopol> well that's all you have to do
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23:33:45 <oklopol> well, at least that's the easiest way
23:34:47 <oklopol> also yeah differential eq's and that stuff isn't that much fun, discrete math is better
23:34:50 <Sgeo> Can I muse in here while I read?
23:35:20 <oklopol> i didn't do my group theory homework :(
23:35:23 <Sgeo> I meant, without angering everyone
23:35:36 <oklopol> Sgeo: well that i can't promise. you can't anger me that way
23:36:09 <ais523> Sgeo: everyone else does, and the people who have you on facepalm also have you on ignore
23:36:13 <ais523> so you won't annoy them
23:36:19 <oklopol> group theory is scary so i have a hard time getting started with the problems
23:36:38 <oklopol> they are usually pretty easy but they look scaaaaary
23:36:46 <Sgeo> ais523, there are people plural with me on ignore?
23:37:37 <Sgeo> I'm not sure how it makes sense to speak of origin vectors, if vectors don't have a location but just direction and magnitude
23:38:26 <oklopol> "if xi is the irreducible character of G, show that sum_{t \in G} xi(t) = 0, if xi is not the 1 character"
23:38:38 <oklopol> what the hell does that even mean?!? maybe i should open the book.
23:39:11 <oklopol> Sgeo: maybe it tells what those vectors are used for, in the context
23:40:20 <oklopol> if you define a vector to be an element of R^2, then i don't see what origin could specify. unless the set of origin vectors is {(0, 0)}
23:40:44 <Sgeo> They say that an origin vector starts at the origin
23:40:51 <Sgeo> Um, let me find it in the PDF, hold on
23:41:16 <oklopol> well then presumably they use some other definition for vector
23:41:24 <Sgeo> In the xy-plane if we place the tail of A at the origin, its head will be at the point with
23:41:24 <Sgeo> coordinates, say, (a1, a2). In this way, the coordinates of the head determine the vector A.
23:41:24 <Sgeo> When we draw A from the origin we will refer to it as an origin vector"
23:41:36 <Sgeo> I think origin vector may just be referring to the geometric view
23:42:46 <oklopol> so maybe they define vectors to be equivalence classes of lines drawn on a paper w.r.t. translation, that can be shown to be equivalent to R^2 for infinite papers
23:42:55 <Sgeo> I understand the stuff in the PDF, I don't want to watch a 38min lecture
23:44:20 <Sgeo> I skipped ahead in the video
23:44:35 <Sgeo> He's talking about dot products, which wasn't in the PDFs, but it seems to be the next session
23:44:36 <oklopol> and were you all like WHAT IS THIS SHIT OMG
23:45:02 <oklopol> do you know what dot products are?
23:45:24 <ais523> oklopol: products made by Dot, inc.
23:45:44 <Sgeo> oklopol, that's in the next session, so when I go there, I'll learn, presumably
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23:46:44 <oklopol> just wondering in general, i learned the geometric content of dot products years and years ago since i did game programming
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23:47:46 <oklopol> of course, that's not very interesting
23:49:00 <oklopol> well, it's somewhat interesting
23:49:14 <Sgeo> " Use vectors to prove that the diagonals of a parallelogram bisect each other"
23:49:19 <Sgeo> Maybe I should watch the video...
23:50:00 <Sgeo> Or maybe I should get some paper...
23:50:22 <Gregor> cpressey: APPLETS ARE MADE OF SO MUCH FAIL
23:50:28 <Sgeo> I'll leave this for the weekend, I think
23:50:34 <oklopol> calculate the middle point of diagonal 1 by adding up the relevant vectors, then calculate the midpoint of diagonal 2
23:50:41 <oklopol> of course, you have to use the same corner as the origin
23:51:11 <Sgeo> oklopol, I was not asking for a solution
23:51:16 <oklopol> Sgeo: don't leave it for the weekend
23:51:36 <oklopol> Sgeo: and i wasn't giving one, i just translated that into a mathematical problem
23:52:06 <oklopol> well, not really, but the point is all that's hard in the problem is to know what you have to solve
23:52:25 <Sgeo> I'm going to watch some Firefly now
23:54:23 <ais523> but only with my hands, as I don't have oerjan's crazy swatter thing
23:54:50 <oklopol> so the problem asked is, for a pair of vectors (u, v), we define the midpoint of u and v as mid(u, v) = (u + v)/2; show that mid(0, u + v) = mid(u, v)
23:55:41 <oklopol> how incredibly interesting!
23:56:14 <ais523> isn't that just algebra?
23:56:36 <ais523> as in, trivial algebra
23:56:55 <oklopol> well yes, you open the definitions and use a few identities that hold in vector spaces
23:57:21 <oklopol> rather trivial identities, even
23:58:06 <oklopol> namely that the zero vector is an identity element in the group of vectors
23:58:41 <oklopol> ais523: i'm just picking on the course Sgeo is on for asking a question with no mathematical content
23:59:38 <ais523> oklopol: most of the questions I ask on the course I teach ask questions with no mathematical content
23:59:48 <ais523> but then, it isn't a maths class, so they wouldn't be expected to have any