00:00:13 <oklopol> Sgeo is taking a course of some sort on i dunno elementary school math i guess
00:00:22 <Sgeo> oklopol, multivariable calculus
00:00:30 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-02sc-multivariable-calculus-fall-2010/part-a-vectors-determinants-and-planes/session-1-vectors/
00:00:55 <oklopol> the multivariable calculus course we had here is horribly hard, i barely got a 5 from it
00:02:47 <oklopol> mit, huh? that's a big name, maybe they know what's useful to learn better than me
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00:19:05 <oklopol> hey i just got a great idea
00:19:20 <oklopol> if i don't sleep at all, i get to go to the university now!
00:19:58 <oklopol> there's one small but, i don't get to sleep at all
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01:11:40 <Sgeo> The PDF didn't say i-hat, it said i
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01:19:07 <augur> where the fuck is oerjan
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01:26:43 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/1/
01:29:35 <augur> @tell oerjan i was wrong about the 2 2-cycles 3 4-cycles one :x
01:30:08 <Sgeo> Someone in the class just asked the question I was thinking, and was going to ask here
01:32:57 <Gregor> creat@libc.so: STILL AVAILABLE
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01:41:51 <Sgeo> MIT professors have awesome blackboards
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01:48:24 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-02sc-multivariable-calculus-fall-2010/part-a-vectors-determinants-and-planes/session-1-vectors/MIT18_02SC_we_3_comb.pdf
01:48:37 <Sgeo> It took me way too long to remember the trig behind that answer
01:50:37 <Sgeo> The midpoint P = ⇒ (B + A) − C
01:50:51 <Sgeo> The midpoint P = ⇒ (B + A) − C.
01:51:00 <Sgeo> It won't let me copy what I need to copy
01:51:06 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-02sc-multivariable-calculus-fall-2010/part-a-vectors-determinants-and-planes/session-1-vectors/MIT18_02SC_we_4_comb.pdf
01:51:16 <Sgeo> I see.. how that works, but I don't think I'd be able to do it myself
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01:59:44 <pikhq_> Gaaah, Glee. Perhaps the worst thing about it is that its obnoxious focus on modern popular music.
02:08:01 * Sgeo 's eyes light up when he realizes that the first question requires no trig... wait
02:08:16 <Sgeo> The answer has to be in terms of... angle ? So it does
02:13:03 <Sgeo> Como se dice "right angle" in vectorese?
02:14:25 <Sgeo> I know what I'm subtracting. I'll just draw that
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02:17:24 <Sgeo> Now that I know what I'm doing, WTF does this problem have to do with vectors?
02:17:29 <Sgeo> It's just a trig problem
02:20:25 <Sgeo> "a) A river flows at 3 mph and a rower rows at 6 mph. What heading should the rower
02:20:25 <Sgeo> take to go straight across a river?"
02:20:40 <Sgeo> Easy enough once I decided to just ignore anything related to vectors
02:20:54 <Sgeo> Well, except remembering subtraction, which helped me visualize it
02:27:00 <quintopia> sgeo: right angle in vectorese is "orthogonal" which formulaically means "have a dot product of zero"
02:27:16 <Sgeo> I haven't gotten to dot products yet
02:27:49 <Sgeo> I kind of did glance ahead, but have no conception of what dot products mean geometrically. I'm going to watch the video, I think
02:28:50 <quintopia> that problem in vectorese would be "find theta such that 6*[cos theta,sin theta]+[0,3]=[x,0]"
02:29:33 <quintopia> which you can see reduces to solving 6sin theta=3
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02:29:51 <quintopia> but yeah, just putting things in perspective :P
02:34:21 * Sgeo headaches in the shape of parallelograms
02:34:57 <Sgeo> I'm just going to read the solutions and move on with my life
02:35:31 <Sgeo> And laziness means half of my solution for the first question is wrong
02:50:15 <Sgeo> quintopia, you inadertantly gave me an answer to one of these problems
02:52:26 <Sgeo> quintopia, you haven't even seen the problem I'm referring to
02:52:52 <quintopia> exactly. therefore i couldn't give you the answer.
02:53:07 <quintopia> indeed, it is impossible to give an answer inadvertently
02:53:23 <quintopia> i may have given you some information that made it possible for you to find the solution
02:59:26 <Sgeo> Note to self: Do not guess at cosines
02:59:57 <Sgeo> I decided that cos(30deg) = 1/sqrt(2)
03:03:49 * pikhq chants tau at Sgeo
03:06:40 <augur> copumpkin: did you check out the puzzles?
03:07:31 <Sgeo> Would it be so terrible to write 2pi/2 everywhere?
03:08:05 <Sgeo> Refuse to simplify!
03:09:30 <pikhq> Good *God* the Fukushima-Daiichi reactor is in a bad state.
03:10:40 <copumpkin> augur: do you have an answer yourself? :P
03:10:57 <copumpkin> augur: or did you just figure out how to express your usual question in graphical form and are hoping someone figures it out? :P
03:11:22 <augur> i have the answer :)
03:11:22 <pikhq> Containment breach, meltdown, too radioactive to allow humans near...
03:11:44 <Sgeo> You can see that equations with x, y, and z, whether they are planes, or empty sets... using dot products somehow?
03:11:45 <pikhq> Burning spent fuel rods...
03:11:53 <Sgeo> Ok, I renounce my fear of dot products
03:12:32 <augur> copumpkin: the question is what explains it!
03:14:36 <augur> ok ill be back in a bit
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03:17:41 <myndzi> a friend brought up an interesting question to me, maybe some of you dudes have ideas
03:17:57 <myndzi> he's trying to optimize deflate compression on a wordlist
03:18:03 <myndzi> the list doesn't need to be in order
03:18:24 <myndzi> so the question is, is there a method that could be used to squeeze a bit extra out of deflate by rearranging the order of the words?
03:26:23 <Sgeo> Take points P = (a, 1, −1), Q = (0, 1, 1), R = (a, −1, 3). For what value(s) of a is P QR
03:26:31 <Sgeo> QR is never a right angle
03:26:52 <Sgeo> And is it asking for all 3 2d angles to be right angles at once? Because QR is never a right angle
03:27:48 <Sgeo> I misunderstood the question
03:28:15 <Sgeo> Let's all laugh at Sgeo for forgetting basic geometry!
03:28:47 <Sgeo> Well, basic notation regarding geometry
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03:29:53 <Sgeo> augur, feel free to laugh at me
03:30:55 <augur> copumpkin: sussed it yet?
03:31:20 <Sgeo> augur, not understanding what was meant by "angle PQR"
03:31:47 <Sgeo> As in, I failed to properly comprehend the question
03:32:08 <Sgeo> In this OpenCourseWare course I'm doing
03:41:39 <copumpkin> augur: are there infinite non-isomorphic pictures you could provide?
03:42:03 <copumpkin> would you run out of pictures, eventually?
03:44:44 <augur> copumpkin: tho keep in mind that this is entailed by the fact that oerjan discovered, which is that the disjoint union of graphs is always a member
03:46:47 <augur> its merely entailed
03:46:53 <augur> i mean, its part of why
03:46:56 <augur> but even without that
03:51:29 <augur> ask questions about it!
03:54:49 <Lymia> Why am I wasting time by writing an Mandelbrot set generator in C?
03:54:57 <Lymia> Oh well. I guess I could count this as C practice.
03:54:59 <augur> copumpkin: its really simple and elegant underlyingly :)
03:58:10 <augur> copumpkin: no questions? :(
04:01:33 <augur> obviously myndzi is dead
04:03:51 <quintopia> but he's still online because \o/ still works
04:04:05 <augur> myndzi hates me :()
04:04:33 <augur> i will murder you, myndzi
04:05:04 <quintopia> myndzi: change your nick to "my" or "zi" or "dz" or something so people will stop complaining when it doesn't work :P
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04:07:07 <Sgeo> pikhq, apparently the OCW Multivariable calculus course includes stuff about matrices and determinants
04:07:34 <Sgeo> Is this a major component of linear algebra? Is this course going to give me knowledge of linear algebra on the side?
04:08:03 <quintopia> there is a major overlap between calculus and lin alg
04:11:02 <myndzi> maybe people should just figure out that i can't put a foot in my nick
04:11:04 <pikhq> That overlap is an example of the solid FAIL of mathematics education.
04:11:06 <Sgeo> I wonder if I should do the later stuff in the earlier calculus
04:11:21 <pikhq> But, yeah, that's pretty normal.
04:11:47 <Sgeo> I don't really know about Taylor series, about improper integrals, I don't remember more advanced integration stuff..
04:12:06 <Sgeo> And I deliberately pushed all introduction of trig where the original problem doesn't have trig out of my mind
04:12:47 <Sgeo> I can do the derivatives and integrals of sine and cosine...
04:13:02 <Sgeo> And derivative of tangent given a bit of time, since I haven't memorized it
04:13:16 <pikhq> Memorise trig identities. And when you're done with that, do it again.
04:17:42 <augur> myndzi: what? foot in your nick?
04:20:05 <quintopia> pikhq: i don't consider it fail. i think calc 3 should have strong lin alg elements in it. you should know basic lin alg coming in and not have to be retaught it, but calculus techniques should be added to your lin alg arsenal
04:21:49 <pikhq> quintopia: I think linear algebra should be taught long before then.
04:22:13 <quintopia> pikhq: exactly. i just said the same thing.
04:22:41 <pikhq> No, you said "the status quo is just fine".
04:22:51 <pikhq> Which is the exact *opposite* of what I'm saying.
04:25:38 <quintopia> the status quo of math in general is not fine
04:25:53 <quintopia> but this particular part of the curriculum's organization makes sense to me
04:25:58 <quintopia> what would you change specifically
04:26:34 <pikhq> Teach linear algebra before, not after & during, calc 3.
04:27:07 <pikhq> And beat whoever thought that teaching vectors 4 or 5 seperate fucking times was a good idea.
04:27:08 <quintopia> ...which is how it is done now. i was asking what you wanted to change.
04:27:47 <quintopia> something must be wrong with your school
04:28:06 <pikhq> Where do you reside?
04:28:31 <pikhq> I can only conclude your school is less stupid than most.
04:30:37 <quintopia> here at gatech, lin alg is done during the first 1/3 of calc 2 (the last 2/3 are actual calculus topics)
04:30:51 <Sgeo> I just took a peek at the final exam
04:31:04 <Sgeo> It states a trigonometric identity right there
04:31:07 <Sgeo> At the top of the exam
04:31:09 <quintopia> the first 1/3 is single variable calc and the last 2/3 is lin alg
04:31:29 <pikhq> Congrats, GA Tech isn't quite as stupid as some other places.
04:31:30 <Lymia> http://i53.tinypic.com/hwd6is.png
04:31:34 <Lymia> http://i52.tinypic.com/b9dkzb.png
04:31:37 <quintopia> so taken as a series, calc I,II,III is svc, then lin alg, then MVC
04:31:40 <Lymia> This is the difference between abs and fabsf.
04:32:06 <pikhq> In my experience, calc II has consisted of more single variable calculus, and calc III has been multivariable calculus.
04:32:20 <pikhq> And then comes linear algebra.
04:32:52 <quintopia> http://www.math.gatech.edu/course/math/1502
04:32:55 <pikhq> Currently, local community college, but this is the *third* fucking school I've been to.
04:33:44 <coppro> calculus and then linear algebra?
04:33:47 <quintopia> i didn't take calc I or calc II here though
04:33:52 <pikhq> I did calc I as an AP class, calc II at University of Colorado, and calc III at Missouri University of Science & Technology, and am now doing linear algebra at the community college.
04:34:05 <coppro> incidentally, anyone familiar with voting system research?
04:34:10 <coppro> (like, actual research)
04:34:14 <variable> pikhq: depends which country your in. in the US you would be right
04:34:19 <pikhq> variable: I'm in the US.
04:34:19 <quintopia> i took AP calc in high school to exempt calc I, then adv calc and lin alg as separate courses at a community college while in high school to exempt calc II
04:34:29 <variable> coppro: minimally I've read some studies but I don't know it well
04:35:01 <pikhq> coppro: Calc II is a hard prereq for linear algebra.
04:35:16 <pikhq> Which is basically "single-variable calculus we didn't teach you in calc I".
04:36:01 <quintopia> how about they just squeeze that stuff into calc I and then teach a whole course on lin alg :P
04:36:43 <variable> quintopia: in the EU system they do that. EU Calc I is == US Calc I and Calc II; and EU calc II is == calc III + more
04:36:49 <coppro> quintopia: arrow theorem?
04:37:00 <variable> coppro: basically: there is no perfect voting system
04:37:10 <coppro> variable: oh yeah, that's not the exciting one
04:37:20 <pikhq> Random voting FTW? :P
04:37:28 <coppro> pikhq: what we have at UW is calc 1, 2, and 3, with 3 being multivariate
04:37:31 <variable> or more accurately: one can't convert a ranked order of preferences into a group pref
04:37:45 <coppro> algebra is given in Algebra, Lin Alg I, Lin Alg II
04:37:47 <coppro> it's a spearate stream
04:38:00 <quintopia> variable: rather, there is no system where more than 2 candidates can be voted on that satisfies 3 specific "fairness" principles. there can still be a "perfect" system if you redefine "fair"
04:38:17 <coppro> Algebra is a singular course that is basically 'learn to proof'
04:38:27 <coppro> linear algebra teaches, unsurprisingly, linear algebra
04:38:27 <pikhq> Single linear algebra course, a presumption you're familiar with elementary algebra, and that's about it on the algebra front unless you're seeking a math degree.
04:38:30 <variable> quintopia: yes. I wasn't giving a precise definition
04:38:36 <coppro> pikhq: oh yeah, this is math faculty
04:38:42 <coppro> dunno what other faculties do
04:38:57 <quintopia> rank preferences are kind of a shitty way to vote anyway
04:39:08 <pikhq> At which point you, of course, actually have all the fun stuff in the cirriculum. :)
04:39:46 <coppro> (there's also calculus 4 and 5 for amath)
04:39:55 <coppro> students or me in particular?
04:40:13 <pikhq> 22:24 < pikhq> Single linear algebra course, a presumption you're familiar with elementary algebra, and that's about it on the algebra front unless you're seeking a math degree.
04:40:50 <variable> quintopia: fair for the arrow thm is basically if all people like A > B then A will be chosen, no person has more power than another, and something about changing votes
04:40:52 <pikhq> coppro: Calc 4 and 5? What's in those?
04:41:07 <variable> pikhq: typically formal proofs of Calc 1 and Calc 2
04:41:59 <coppro> 4 is Vector integral calculus-line integrals, surface integrals and vector fields, Green's theorem, the Divergence theorem, and Stokes' theorem. Applications include conservation laws, fluid flow and electromagnetic fields. An introduction to Fourier analysis. Fourier series and the Fourier transform. Parseval's formula. Frequency analysis of signals. Discrete and continuous spectra.
04:42:26 <coppro> 5 is actually an informal name; I can't remember which course it actually is at the moment
04:43:08 <coppro> oh, I think it's partial DEs 1 or something like that
04:43:22 <coppro> (and yes, there is a partial DEs 2
04:43:45 <pikhq> coppro: Damn you people and your genuinely good education.
04:43:55 <coppro> pikhq: you should come to UW!
04:43:58 <quintopia> i took the required calc stuff and moved on the discrete stuff as fast as possible
04:44:28 <quintopia> guess what? i've never had cause to solve an ODE since then!
04:44:36 <quintopia> that's for engineers to do, i suppose
04:44:37 <pikhq> coppro: Cash is, no doubt, a limiting factor.
04:45:53 <pikhq> Not to mention my current GPA making going to a high-quality school nigh-impossible. Damned past me doing stupid shit.
04:45:59 <coppro> pikhq: very true, unfortunately. UW does have a program by which they'll waive fees if they're convinced you're giving them everything you can, but I'm not familiar with it
04:48:02 <coppro> GPA's a much harder point
04:48:18 <coppro> and I don't really understand how they determine transfer admissions
04:48:51 <pikhq> Yup, cost would be insanely prohibitive for me as an international student.
04:50:50 <coppro> as I said, they do have a "you're doing your best, we will bite the bullet to let you learn" program, which you might be able to get
04:51:04 <coppro> but I know little about it
04:54:48 <pikhq> Hmm, seems that I'd actually be able to transfer in, but financing is... Not fucking happening at all.
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05:01:50 <coppro> pikhq: again, they do have that financing option; no clue if it's reasonable and life would probably suck
05:02:04 <coppro> it doesn't seem well-advertised on the website, but it's probably not the sort of thing you want to advertise
05:03:22 <pikhq> If I were Canadian, I would have already been going there, though.
05:04:03 <coppro> it pains me to see someone not able to get a good education because of $$$
05:04:08 <coppro> I'd help you out if I had the money
05:04:42 <pikhq> Blame the US post-secondary education.
05:05:06 <pikhq> Your international tuition rates are comparable to domestic tuition rates at some schools.
05:05:14 <coppro> yeah, I know, it's crazy
05:05:35 <coppro> I remember talking to a guy /from Pennsylvania/ for whom it was cheaper to go to McGill than Penn State
05:08:43 <coppro> we have a magic rules help channel on EFNet with a bot that prints card text
05:08:57 <coppro> a guy joined and called up two card texts; me an another judge both answered his question before he asked it
05:10:02 <coppro> hero of bladehold and gideon
05:11:52 <pikhq> Obvious question is obvious.
05:13:29 <Sgeo> I don't get it
05:15:21 <myndzi> i've done similar things with scripting
05:15:27 <myndzi> i don't know any magic cards these days
05:15:33 <Sgeo> I know vaguely the rules of MtG, but none of the cards
05:15:36 <myndzi> i used to run a bot for some mtg channel that did scramble text
05:15:37 <Sgeo> Except lands, of course
05:15:47 <Sgeo> Um, the basic lands, I mean
05:15:47 <myndzi> there were like 5800 cards or something at the time(?)
05:15:52 <myndzi> and that was like a decade ago
05:16:00 <myndzi> 5800 that doesn't sound right
05:16:25 <myndzi> but i don't know where the script is now
05:18:12 <myndzi> i guess that might be correct after all
05:18:16 <myndzi> google says there's like 15k now
05:18:49 <Sgeo> What was the card text an question>'
05:20:00 <myndzi> http://images.google.com/images?q=hero%20of%20bladehold&hl=en&biw=1236&bih=599
05:20:08 <myndzi> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&biw=1236&bih=599&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=gideon+magic&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
05:21:32 <myndzi> but i don't actually know what that shit is on the planeswalker card
05:22:00 <Sgeo> It starts with 6 .. I don't remember the term
05:22:21 <Sgeo> Then add +2 or -2 or 0 for the relevent ability, I think
05:22:24 <Sgeo> I have seen it before
05:22:30 <Sgeo> But my memory may be bad
05:22:52 <myndzi> so you can just increase it indefinitely?
05:23:07 <myndzi> also there's some other new card type, 'tribal'?
05:23:13 <coppro> myndzi: oh yeah, tribal
05:23:14 <myndzi> it's become such a money grab
05:23:16 <myndzi> used to be a good game
05:23:22 <coppro> it is still a good game
05:23:27 <coppro> better game, I'd argue
05:23:28 <myndzi> now it just reinvents itself with trilogies over and over to make people spend money
05:23:44 <coppro> this is true, but that's part of the fun; it changes
05:23:53 <myndzi> perhaps, but it's too greedy for my taste
05:24:04 <coppro> drafting is really popular
05:24:07 <myndzi> i don't suppose they could maintain the community they have without doing something like that though i guess
05:24:14 <myndzi> at least not in the same way
05:24:23 <myndzi> but i'd prefer a self contained game really
05:24:27 <myndzi> you just have to ... stop, at some point
05:24:32 <myndzi> make a new game instead or something, i dunon
05:24:59 <quintopia> earlier tonight i figured out most of how to make mafia a two player card game
05:25:14 <myndzi> sounds like a dvorak project perhaps ;p
05:25:26 <myndzi> i don't think i've ever played mafia though
05:25:36 <myndzi> which is a bit funny since it seems popular on the internet
05:27:01 <quintopia> i've never played it on the internet
05:27:09 <quintopia> but it's a great game in real life
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06:15:34 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:16:06 <oerjan> <augur> @tell oerjan i was wrong about the 2 2-cycles 3 4-cycles one :x
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06:22:46 <oerjan> well then 2 2-cycles + n 4-cycles should be in general
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06:54:42 <oklopol> "<quintopia> dmath > amath" <<< !
06:59:18 <oklopol> quintopia: is discrete math considered math where you do your stuff? :)
07:00:05 <quintopia> don't ask me these questions when i'm trying to pretend to be asleep
07:00:10 <oklopol> we get a lot of students from france but they are all from the cs dep because the math dep just does analysis and we don't have that much of that
07:00:36 <oklopol> their math dep just does analysis i mean
07:02:20 <oklopol> they have it all backwards there
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12:59:21 <augur> @tell oerjan i'll have to generate more to confirm your predictions up to some level of accuracy
13:01:29 <augur> damnit lambdabot :|
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15:42:17 <cheater00> can there be two programs A and B where A is a plugin for B, but B is a plugin for A (depending on the situation)? what is an actual use case for this?
15:43:32 <Gregor> Depends on your definition of "plugin". If piping data to each other is considered to be a "plugin", then practically every application in the standard Unix toolchest fits that description.
15:43:36 <ais523> cheater00: Word and Excel ever since Windows 3.1
15:43:46 <ais523> so you can embed Word documents into Excel documents, and vice versa
15:44:05 <Gregor> That's a less-ambiguously-plugin example, innit X-P
15:44:07 <ais523> IMO, the concept's of dubious utility
15:45:05 <cheater00> Gregor: basically, X is a plugin of Y if X registers for callbacks in Y and executes them, later passing control back to Y right after the callbacks are executed.
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16:11:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
16:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> You are the last person I am going to discuss this with.
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16:13:34 <fizzie> You people are so... lively, I think is the word.
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16:34:09 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 2x1k to Nepal, 1k to Hong Kong, 3x64k+3x32k to China, 2k to Fiji, 128k to Taiwan, 512+256 to India, /48 to Australia
16:43:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/faked-data-unsubstantiated-claims-and-spirituality-add-up-to-a-math-journal-retraction/
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16:53:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: I made an antioptbot that reverted all of optbot's topic changes, then somebody made an antiantioptbot and oerjan banned it. elliott got all bitchy then modified optbot to change its nick randomly before changing the /topic, then oerjan banned both optbot and antioptbot (the latter being totally useless without optbot anyway). elliott left in a huff, taking Herobrine with him.
17:06:40 <cheater00> elliott can't stand the situation when the whole world isn't spinning around him.
17:07:36 <cheater00> i've got one crazy maths book written by rev. something-or-another. it's full of crazy bs.
17:08:47 <cheater00> Cartesian and Argand Values, by The Rev. P. H. Francis, M.A.
17:10:07 <augur> @tell oerjan you're right, (2,n) is always a member
17:12:04 <pikhq> So, in short, elliott has issues understanding "DEAR GOD MAKE IT STOP".
17:12:11 <cheater00> PREFACE: The author from a study of properties of infinity gave some elementary deductions from these properties, in a short work /Mathematics of Infinity/, in 1968. (...) [F]urther study allowed Parts I-III of the present work to be composed. It then occured to the author to give the coordinate axes electrical units; and Parts IV and V were added, in which the cause of gravity, and the ways in which the earth is heated and lighted are i
17:12:11 <cheater00> ndicated. But the author has little knowledge of electricity, and less chemistry, and knows little of atomic theories (...)
17:15:45 <pikhq> I mean, I actually liked optbot, but if someone goes to the effort of *making an antioptbot*, just fucking stop.
17:16:28 <pikhq> Hrm. Seems that a massive update hit Debian.
17:16:39 <pikhq> aptitude's spent the last 5 minutes resolving dependencies.
17:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It was mainly because he'd been told to implement a fix by oerjan to make the topic-overriding less obnoxious, but then went to sleep and left optbot running unmodified.
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17:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor made antioptbot and elliott refused to implement the fix until oerjan banned it, and oerjan refused to ban it until elliott made the fix.
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18:00:09 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:00:17 <lambdabot> augur said 50m 12s ago: you're right, (2,n) is always a member
18:00:46 <oerjan> augur: well that follows from your (2,3) change of mind + the disjoint union rule
18:02:01 <augur> oh, well, i guess it sort of makes sense
18:02:46 <oerjan> you have (2,0), (2,1) and (2,2) as examples. (2,3) you say is also there. now add (0,4) to those repeatedly.
18:03:15 <augur> since (2,1) and (0,2) are members, then (2,1) + n*(0,2) will be too so that gives you 2n+1
18:03:24 <augur> ie the odd numbers
18:03:46 <oerjan> um you don't have (0,2)
18:03:59 <augur> oh you're right :)
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18:04:28 <pikhq> Oh holy crap it's *still going*.
18:07:25 <oerjan> the last two were already known by union, though
18:08:15 <oerjan> make that the last four
18:08:43 <oerjan> er, not the third last, that's the new (2,3)
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18:11:33 <Gregor> Now to implement scapegoat while elliott is pouting :P
18:12:05 <oerjan> augur: does adding a 4-cycle to a member still give a member?
18:13:27 <oerjan> and is (1,0,1) _not_ a member
18:18:28 <oerjan> <Gregor> Vorpal: I made an antioptbot that reverted all of optbot's topic changes, then somebody made an antiantioptbot and oerjan banned it. elliott got all bitchy then modified optbot to change its nick randomly before changing the /topic, then oerjan banned both optbot and antioptbot (the latter being totally useless without optbot anyway). elliott left in a huff, taking Herobrine with him.
18:18:50 <oerjan> mind you not in exactly that order (most of my bans came after elliott left)
18:19:11 <Gregor> Oh they did? I faillol at log reading :P
18:19:20 <Gregor> Anyway, still time to implement scapegoat while elliott is pouting.
18:19:50 <oerjan> and i have since reverted all the bans except antioptbot, which after some reconsideration is the only one i should have banned in the first place, if any
18:23:40 <Gregor> oerjan: Oh piffle, it was just the implementation of a personal spat :P
18:26:55 <oerjan> yes but it's the one action that i think wouldn't have added to the drama
18:30:58 <quintopia> or, you know, making a rule "bots shall not change the topic" and ban them all. that seems the most fair.
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18:32:28 <oerjan> i think the rule "bots shall not sabotage each other" is fairer ;(
18:33:11 <oerjan> for one thing it outlaws definitely disruptive behavior.
18:33:15 <quintopia> i see no reason bots shouldn't sabotage each other.
18:33:36 <quintopia> it's the easiest way to deal with annoying bots without involving an op
18:34:05 <oerjan> erm, i had already been involved with optbot, thank you very much.
18:34:25 <quintopia> i thought we were now speaking hypothetically
18:35:07 <oerjan> ...the rule "you shall not make rules unnecessary, because there will always be some hypothetical reason to break them" is also nice...
18:35:55 <quintopia> that's essentially equivalent to "be as reasonable about exception-granting as you are about rules"
18:36:58 <quintopia> but really, i think the rule of thumb for bots is "thou shalt not make an annoying bot"
18:37:31 <quintopia> i define annoying as "does stuff without being deliberately provoked by a user with the intent to make it do that stuff"
18:41:14 <oerjan> i feel like i'm sliding back into drama just by having this conversation.
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18:43:45 <quintopia> nah it's a reasonable discussion to have
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18:52:05 <oerjan> apparently not all under-the-bed monsters are made equal http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/pondus/
18:58:35 <oerjan> i thought it was mostly visual, so i linked it anyhow
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18:58:44 <oerjan> (it's norwegian of course)
19:02:43 <oerjan> ...helping it to apply nail polish?
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19:04:23 <oerjan> i thought it was a bit funny
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19:39:27 <Gregor> `addquote <tjholowaychuk> that's the joy of JS, it's your bitch
19:40:43 <HackEgo> ) <tjholowaychuk> that's the joy of JS, it's your bitch
19:41:45 <HackEgo> 131) <oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster.
19:42:48 <oklopol> oerjan: i get it, it's funny because norwegian looks silly!
19:51:25 <quintopia> i actually laughed at today's xkcd. something about that idea...
19:52:26 <ais523> looking at it, I missed the idea to start with due to confusion between the player/character distinction
19:52:51 <ais523> computer game /characters/ can generally be safer abused due to, you know, not existing
19:52:52 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: all kinds of weird stuff gets accepted to math journals
19:53:03 <ais523> and luckily, harming the character doesn't harm the corresponding player, if there is one
19:56:17 <Gregor> OK, I am once again forced to solicit opinions on VPS providers: 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 230.677 s, 45.5 kB/s
19:57:07 <Gregor> Anybody have a good VPS?
19:58:19 <fizzie> Gregor: Was that disk IO?
19:59:39 <fizzie> (And was it prgmr you used?)
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20:04:55 <fizzie> I know one http://www.linode.com/ user who hasn't been complaining, but of course that's not saying much.
20:05:28 <fizzie> And another one who runs a server in Rackspace's cloud and complains about network bandwidth.
20:07:23 <Gregor> fizzie: That's disk I/O, yes. And Linode charges too much for RAM, and I'm RAM-hungry :(
20:07:24 <Gregor> And most of the other VPS' broadly disallow all IRC bots because they're lame.
20:08:20 <quintopia> by which i mean, they haven't bothered me except about paying them on time
20:09:04 <quintopia> they give you two ipv4 addresses and 60GB disk for $20, which is a pretty fair price.
20:09:06 <fizzie> Ooh, I didn't even know people use OpenVZ in serious business.
20:09:21 <Gregor> That is pretty decent ...
20:09:30 <Gregor> What's wrong with OpenVZ?
20:09:42 <ais523> quintopia: what sort of bandwidth?
20:10:18 <Gregor> "IRC access is forbidden"
20:10:21 <fizzie> Gregor: Nothing that I know of, I just didn't know people were seriously using it. (And of course some might claim it's more of a fakertualization than virtualization, since you don't get to run your own kernal.)
20:10:30 <Gregor> Why are they all so snippy about IRC.
20:11:06 <ais523> because people using IRC often invite DDOS attacks
20:11:23 <ais523> on certain servers, DOSing or DDOSing people you don't like seems commonplace, for whatever reason
20:12:00 <Gregor> That is just so durpy X_X
20:12:28 <fizzie> "war bots/X-DCC are not allowed"; isn't that a bit redundant if IRC access in general is, too?
20:13:43 <Gregor> EgoBot and HackEgo both run (slowly) on VPS. I can't switch to a VPS that doesn't allow IRC.
20:13:43 <Gregor> The only reason why EgoBot and HackEgo are so slow is that my disk speed on prgmr is totally broken.
20:13:59 <Gregor> I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't notice, by why step on their feet :P
20:16:23 <fizzie> My ISP sells VPS stuff too, but they're probably quite far in the expensive side of things.
20:18:00 <fizzie> (As in >2 times the Linode prices.)
20:19:52 <fizzie> You could try using that huge table at http://www.comparevps.com/ too.
20:20:24 <fizzie> (Not sure how up-to-date they are; at least quite many links are borken.)
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20:26:10 <quintopia> Gregor: they say it's forbidden, but i'm connecting from them right now. they've never said anything about it.
20:26:41 <fizzie> I wonder if there's some particular reason this Amsterdam-based VPS shop ("Tilaa") has a name that's a Finnish word. (It's, among others, the third-person singular "to order", or the second-person imperative of it, or the partitive of the noun "space" (as in "yes, we have space for you", not "space, the final frontier").)
20:27:25 <quintopia> Gregor: i think they just put it in the rules so they can cancel users for whom it actually becomes a problem. it's like the rule against alcohol in nat'l parks. they don't enforce it unless you get rowdy.
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20:38:18 <Gregor> quintopia: <Gregor> I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't notice, by why step on their feet :P
20:40:07 <quintopia> Gregor: because it gets you a huge slice of computer for a very low price. is there any better reason?
20:40:52 <Gregor> quintopia: I just really don't want to wake up one day and find that codu.org is down because they found out I had a connection to port 6667.
20:41:39 <fizzie> Gregor: Also you can be sure that someone from there would send anonymous tip-offs to them.
20:42:04 <Gregor> After I make a bot that undoes all their bot's actions :P
20:42:38 <fizzie> s/there/here/, and yes.
20:44:52 <Gregor> Besides, I host Hackiki (also only slow because of abysmal disk performance), and some hosts may find that offensive :P
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20:47:26 <quintopia> Gregor: this is why i try to make regular backups of my data and a backup vps in mind. i can switch vps's in a couple hours if that happens.
20:48:35 <Gregor> I back up all my data, but don't have a backup VPS in mind, and even if I did it would take more than a couple hours to get it up ...
20:50:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Try out yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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20:53:16 <Gregor> lol, this VPS' terms of service includes: "User may not: ... b) Run stand-alone, unattended server-side processes at any point in time on the server. This includes any and all daemons, such as IRCD."
20:53:24 <Gregor> Uhhh, that also includes all daemons SUCH AS APACHE
20:54:13 <ais523> that sounds like... not a server
20:54:23 <Gregor> Donno, I already closed it, it was too stupid ;P
20:54:32 <Gregor> But the rest of their page talked about using the VPS as a web server.
20:54:40 <Gregor> So pretty much they're made of fail.
20:55:32 <ais523> also, what would be a client-side process in that context?
20:56:19 <fizzie> Gregor: You just need to run all servers in a non-daemonizing mode, and keep a SSH connection open to watch them. (Maybe you could put the ssh in a screen on another VPS.)
20:56:33 <Gregor> fizzie: sshd is a server
20:57:08 <fizzie> Well, maybe netcat into a bash.
20:59:15 <Gregor> fizzie: netcat is a server
20:59:48 <Gregor> And it has to be unattended in order to get it to run on the VPS (emphasis on 'S') in the first place.
21:01:04 <Gregor> http://www.bestdealvps.com/tos <-- ahh, here it is
21:01:18 <ais523> so if there's no sshd, how do you connect to it at all?
21:01:52 <Gregor> Presumably there is an sshd, but their server as preconfigured by them violates their own TOS.
21:03:54 <Gregor> http://www.vpszone.com/tos.html <-- here's a TOS I can actually work with
21:07:00 <quintopia> "Offering UNLIMITED Space and or Bandwidth will result in instant termination of your account. We will not contact you before we delete your files." bahahaha
21:07:29 <Gregor> I can only assume that's targeted at would-be resellers.
21:07:47 <quintopia> i just love the fact that people do that
21:08:03 <quintopia> get a limited vps and then resell it as unlimited
21:08:32 <ais523> given that they can't possibly make good on their promise?
21:08:34 <quintopia> i like their TOS, but the $15 extra a month just kills it for me :P
21:09:09 <quintopia> ais523: they scam as many people as they can. then, when they run out of resources, they close up shop and run, or something like that.
21:09:27 <Gregor> quintopia: I was going to go with the slightly-lesser $19/mo plan
21:09:40 <Gregor> s/was going to go with/would go with/
21:10:19 <Gregor> I'm a RAM hog too, but intovps just isn't on the list.
21:10:27 <Gregor> Violating the TOS isn't something I'm willing to do, too risky.
21:11:16 <quintopia> yeah, it's probs more risky for you
21:11:38 <quintopia> i feel like the most i can lose is a few hours of installing software again on the next vps
21:11:48 <quintopia> if they ever even say anything about it
21:13:24 <Gregor> By all respects I should be WILDLY underutilizing this machine.
21:13:33 <Gregor> Instead it crawls, and not because of CPU or memory, but because of the friggin' HARD DISK.
21:13:46 <ais523> Gregor: what about using a tmpfs?
21:13:55 <fizzie> Well, it's a VPS (emphasis on the V), maybe their fair IO scheduling isn't so fair.
21:13:57 <quintopia> someone else on your box is a disk hog and their scheduler is faulty
21:14:26 <Gregor> That's what THEY said.
21:14:40 <Gregor> ais523: I need the RAM too much.
21:14:49 <Gregor> ais523: And there are too many things that (briefly) need the HD.
21:15:35 <fizzie> Gregor: Maybe you can open a new prgmr account under an assumed name, hope it gets assigned to some better physical place, then move all data and close the old?-)
21:15:53 <ais523> or just let prgmr know that the HD access times are unexpectedly slow
21:16:02 <ais523> and see if they draw the same conclusion you do
21:16:08 <Gregor> ais523: I have, they've tried to fix it rather than just doing as I ask and moving me to a different system.
21:17:18 <fizzie> "Please note; this means all plans come with $4/month worth of support." I guess you've used your $4 already. :p
21:18:14 <Gregor> Actually in spite of what that says, that has more to do with "we won't help you if you're a Linux noob" than "we won't help you if there are problems with our hardware"
21:19:39 <Gregor> real 3m26.984s user 0m3.320s sys 0m1.828s
21:20:01 <ais523> it could just have had a /really small/ proportion of hte timeslices
21:20:02 <Gregor> It takes 3.5 min to copy 200MB
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21:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> So, turns out the technician in my school's science department is awesome.
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21:41:05 <ais523> it's dual-licensed, the GDFL is one of the licenses
21:41:15 <ais523> but CC-by-sa is normally more convenient for reuse
21:41:34 <ais523> it allows CC-only imports, but they have to be marked
21:41:42 <ais523> and everything's CC-by-ssa+GDFL by default
21:41:56 * ais523 ponders how you make things creative commons via single static assignment
21:42:09 <ais523> presumably, Creative Commons is who you'd assign it to, but how do you get the static in?
21:45:52 * Phantom_Hoover considers that Googling the manufacture of TNT is possibly not the least incriminating of actions
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21:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Turns out it's perfectly plausible that my uncle made it in his chemistry lesson, though.
21:56:07 <Zwaarddijk> my flatmate's uncle once did some thing in chemistry where he dissolved a fish
21:56:17 <Zwaarddijk> when he went to sleep he started thinking about that
21:56:23 <Zwaarddijk> and realized oh shit it will go pretty explosive soon
21:56:54 <Zwaarddijk> so he had to hurry back and try to concoct a way to cancel out the explosiveness
21:57:13 <Zwaarddijk> but yeah, apparently, if you dissolve some kinds of fish in the right acids, you get pretty strong explosives
21:57:55 <Zwaarddijk> I don't think it was trinitrotoluene though
21:58:24 <Zwaarddijk> i think it was more similar to nitroglycerin though
21:58:45 <Zwaarddijk> as he was very careful in handling it, pretty much sweating all the time... something like "one false move and this goes all the way to hell"
22:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The reason I started on this was that some of the chemistry students in the year above me at school were trying to make gunpowder.
22:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> And they needed stuff from the technician, and he cottoned on after they asked for sulphur and potassium nitrate in short succession.
22:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So he told them how to make nitrogen triïodide instead, which is much more fun.
22:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> They tested it by leaving some bits of paper soaked in it in the corridors just before lunch break started.
22:04:19 <Zwaarddijk> so it's weak enough not to be dangerous in such amounts?
22:05:10 <Gregor> Only when the alpha particles are dating do they set it off.
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22:30:06 <Gregor> And naturally we all remember who you are, because you're a legend :P
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22:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alegend45, I SUSPECT THAT YOU HAVE MADE MULTIPLE BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVES
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22:46:07 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: why don't you fuck their brains with a brick instead?
22:46:22 <Zwaarddijk> as that punishment sounds kind of called for?
22:46:40 <Zwaarddijk> but that would truly be a punishment fit for the crime
22:46:54 <quintopia> what exactly does Kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen mean?
22:51:36 <fizzie> "Tämänhetkinen kahdenkymmenenneljän tunnin aikakausi" would be more-or-less proper Finnish for "the current twenty-four hour period".
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23:12:35 <Zwaarddijk> don't recall what that diacritic usually is called
23:12:50 <Zwaarddijk> so i will have much muscle usage left when I die
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