←2011-03-19 2011-03-20 2011-03-21→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:05:41 <Gregor> impomatic: And now you're gone :P
00:06:05 <Gregor> If anybody wants a logbot, glogbot is pretty stable now.
00:11:08 <Phantom_Hoover> !logs
00:11:08 <esowiki> Logs: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D
00:11:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D | NEW SOCIALIST TRADITIONS APPR.
00:11:21 <fizzie> glögbot, on the other hand, just keeps on drinking.
00:11:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:11:33 <olsner> Gregor: is that yours? should be called flogbot
00:11:57 <olsner> glöggbot <3
00:11:59 <Gregor> My name does not start with an 'f' :P
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00:13:18 <pikhq_> It needs more g's.
00:13:33 <pikhq_> What's the maximum nick length on Freenode?
00:13:54 <coppro> experiment
00:13:57 <Gregor> It shall remain glogbot :P
00:14:04 <fizzie> 20 chars or so, IIRC.
00:14:06 <pikhq_> Not gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggglogbot?
00:14:19 <olsner> giggityglogbot?
00:14:22 <fizzie> gluebot.
00:14:36 <shachaf> pikhq_: 17.
00:14:50 <fizzie> entgegengegangen, my favourite german word.
00:14:57 <shachaf> No, 16.
00:15:50 <fizzie> It's a multiple of 4 anyway, because when I changed fungot to antiantianti... for testing, it got cut off between the 'anti's.
00:16:19 <fizzie> 16 indeed, it seems.
00:16:26 <pikhq_> "Most bacon consumed in the United Kingdom is back bacon." The UK is full of HEATHENS and SINNERS AGAINST BACON
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00:18:29 <zzo38> What does "entgegengegangen" means?
00:18:55 <fizzie> Misread that as "black bacon", thought it was some sort of term for completely burned bacon, was all "huh, that's a weird preference".
00:18:55 <pikhq_> Ent gegen gegangs
00:19:04 <olsner> zzo38: it's even googleable
00:19:24 <olsner> "gone to meet", apparently
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00:19:57 <fizzie> Yes; past tense of entgegen/gehen, one of their silly two-part verbs.
00:21:26 <fizzie> I think the context it was introduced to me was a person gone to meet someone else at the train station. "gehen" is "to go", while "entgegen" is generally "against".
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00:25:18 <fizzie> Finnish idiom "mennä <jotakuta> vastaan" (lit "to go against <somebody>") for sort-of going to "receive"/meet someone (who's e.g. coming to a visit) might well be from that.
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00:52:41 <Gregor> I wrote my log converter in C for some lunatic reason. Easily the worst C program I've written in my entire life.
00:52:50 <zzo38> I need no log bot I have server logs. Server logs works better.
00:52:56 <zzo38> Gregor: Then write a better C program.
00:53:18 <Gregor> zzo38: ... you have server logs ... of FreeNode?
00:53:27 <zzo38> No, only of my own server.
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00:53:41 <Gregor> Well then there's that :P
00:53:44 <zzo38> I do not need server logs of FreeNode, I can use the clog for this channel.
00:53:59 <zzo38> And glogbot can also be used for this channel, as well as the other logs.
00:54:24 <zzo38> The other channels that are logged have their own logs.
00:55:41 <pikhq> Gregor: Don't you know that string processing is the single worst thing to do in C?
00:55:43 <zzo38> But I think server logs works better in general.
00:55:55 <Gregor> pikhq: strtok, bitch!
00:56:06 <pikhq> I'd sooner 切腹.
00:56:16 <zzo38> pikhq: I can do string processing in C. C works for many things that are not specific to only one computer.
00:56:33 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, but it's so insanely tedious to do string processing in C.
00:56:46 <pikhq> It's not far above Brainfuck on that front.
00:57:07 <pikhq> Pretty much the only advantage you get there is *more than one pointer*.
00:57:50 <Gregor> Bleh, I don't think you can do the equivalent of tail -f with C stdio only.
00:58:48 <zzo38> pikhq: No, I can do string processing fine in C. You just have to know what it is that you need, and then just make it.
00:58:53 <Deewiant> while (1) { fopen fseek fread fclose }
00:59:19 <pikhq> zzo38: It is *possible*, yes.
00:59:31 <pikhq> zzo38: It's just about on par with doing it in Brainfuck.
01:00:22 <Gregor> Deewiant: Oh yeah, I guess I could work it out with fopen/fseek/fclose ... didn't work with just opening it once throughout.
01:00:48 <zzo38> pikhq: No, in C you can use macros and more than one pointer, and memory allocation, and stuff like that.
01:01:43 <pikhq> zzo38: Still insanely tedious compared to doing it in, oh, *nearly any other high-level language*.
01:04:54 <zzo38> pikhq: Probably, but I am capable to do some insane things, and it is not too difficult if you know what you are trying to make, therefore it is OK. But it is OK to use other program language, too.
01:05:57 <oerjan> pikhq, now arguing sanity in #esoteric. has he lost his marbles?
01:06:26 <olsner> arguing for sanity is a clear sign of not having any
01:06:45 <zzo38> olsner: No, it is possible to have both sanity and insanity.
01:06:59 <zzo38> Sometimes.
01:10:26 <zzo38> Is there program to convert PCL printing file to other format in case your printer does not use PCL?
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01:44:01 * Gregor hopes the fool things stay connected.
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02:48:08 <Gregor> Man, checking user modes is a friggin' pain.
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03:15:06 <Gregor> If you wanted to make a public logger bot, how would you make it verify that a request to join a channel is legit?
03:15:23 <Gregor> Note that I can't determine who the ops on a channel are without joining it ...
03:18:03 <Gregor> Oh wait, /whois does
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03:32:24 <variable> Gregor, only if they are on the same channel IIRC (or they don't have the secret options set)
03:32:39 <variable> you *could* query chanserv access - but that wouldn't be complete
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03:33:51 <Gregor> I seem to be whoisable, is secret even default?
03:33:59 <Gregor> If it's not default then who cares, they'll just have to not be so sneaky to use it :P
03:34:30 <Gregor> Oh dear, loghandler is running hot ... how odd.
03:34:39 <myndzi> +s isn't default
03:34:43 <myndzi> +p is a candidate too
03:34:51 <myndzi> (+p hides from whois, shows on list)
03:35:01 <myndzi> wait a second, +s IS default, this is freenode
03:35:03 <myndzi> why would they do that anyway
03:35:26 <Gregor> If +s is default, then why am I not +s?
03:35:31 <myndzi> +s is a channel mode
03:35:37 <myndzi> +i is invisible
03:35:45 <Gregor> OH
03:35:46 <myndzi> which hides you from /who and /names
03:35:56 <myndzi> +i hides a user from channel listings
03:36:00 <myndzi> +s hides a channel from user listings
03:36:00 <myndzi> ;p
03:36:06 <Gregor> Is +s only default for chanserv-controlled channels?
03:36:07 <myndzi> well, "information" not "listings"
03:36:10 <myndzi> i don't know
03:36:14 <myndzi> i joined a random string of letters
03:36:20 <myndzi> and it was set +s
03:36:27 <Gregor> Hm
03:36:30 <myndzi> +ns, what a weird default
03:36:46 <myndzi> but i guess there could be reasons for it
03:36:59 <myndzi> i once found a bunch of oper channels by getting on a server that crashed right after it came up
03:37:01 <myndzi> and whoising opers
03:37:08 <myndzi> before the server resynched
03:37:08 <myndzi> :P
03:37:28 <myndzi> because they autoreconnceted to the server and joined the channels, but the channels weren't +s because they weren't with chanserv yet!
03:37:33 <Gregor> Hmmm foobar.
03:37:51 <Gregor> Not sure how to make requests legit in this case >_>
03:38:10 <myndzi> join the channel
03:38:16 <myndzi> if it's not legit, ignore the user
03:38:23 * myndzi shrugs
03:38:43 <Gregor> Bleh
03:39:03 <myndzi> you can at least verify that the channel exists before joining it
03:39:06 <Gregor> Since I require them to be an op anyway, I could just say they have to temporarily set it to -s ... or is that a huge pain due to ChanServ rumblings.
03:39:07 <myndzi> and perhaps has > X users
03:39:18 <myndzi> also it seems like on freenode nobody bothers to op up
03:39:25 <myndzi> so requiring ops would be a bit of a pain
03:39:32 <Gregor> Well this is just a one-time thing to prevent fraud.
03:39:38 <myndzi> one possibility would be to join and announce something the first time you join the chanenl
03:39:40 <myndzi> channel
03:39:43 <Gregor> If you want logging, you op yourself then request the bot, then you never have to again.
03:39:48 <myndzi> such as "ops may ban me from this channel with this command"
03:39:49 <myndzi> or whatever
03:40:07 <variable> * [Gregor] #esoteric
03:40:10 <Gregor> Ops can request that glogbot leave a channel at any time, but there shouldn't need to be ops around to prevent it from improperly logging a channel.
03:40:19 <Gregor> variable: ... fascinating.
03:40:32 <myndzi> true enough
03:40:44 <myndzi> i was thinking of "don't log at first" or something
03:40:45 <myndzi> but meh
03:40:51 <myndzi> however you look at it it's a bit of an annoyance
03:40:54 <variable> Gregor, my point is that if you are on any other channels - I can't see them
03:41:08 <Gregor> variable: Ah, yeah, >_>
03:41:11 <Gregor> I'm on, like, dozens :P
03:41:15 <myndzi> does freenode even use chanserv? i messaged chanserv 'help' but no response
03:41:20 <myndzi> oh wait
03:41:24 <myndzi> it went into another channel window wut
03:41:33 <variable> myndzi, yes it does
03:42:25 <variable> myndzi, :-
03:42:26 <variable> p
03:42:36 <myndzi> too bad you can't use WHY without access
03:42:54 <variable> (my lag is ~ 10s now :-( )
03:42:56 <myndzi> ah well, i guess it comes down to you basically just have to either make them jump through hoops or risk being irritating
03:43:22 <Gregor> wtf, I set ##glogbot23 (a temp testing channel) to -s and it still can't see it in /whois ...
03:43:32 <variable> Gregor, tasting a channel should be fine: you get asked to join, join channel, check if person is ops)
03:43:33 <variable> if courses there is a race condition there
03:43:56 <variable> Gregor, are you +i ?
03:44:04 <Gregor> variable: Nope
03:44:04 <myndzi> that shouldn't matter
03:44:10 <myndzi> +i doesn't hide your channels
03:44:14 <Gregor> Can somebody else /whois me?
03:44:17 <myndzi> it hides you from user searches
03:44:20 <myndzi> Gregor: i only see #esoteric
03:44:25 <Gregor> wtfbbq
03:44:26 <myndzi> apparently freenode is Privacy Happy
03:44:29 <variable> * [Gregor] #esoteric
03:45:04 <Gregor> Damn it, this is so obnoxious.
03:45:28 <myndzi> well
03:45:34 <myndzi> runescript joins to check the names list then parts
03:45:42 <myndzi> and i know they'd have figured out a better way if it was feasible
03:45:46 <variable> (that is called 'tasting' myndzi )
03:45:47 <myndzi> so yeah, you're pretty much stuck doing that
03:46:05 <Gregor> That's so lame ... should I make the bot apologize if it's requested improperly?
03:46:28 <variable> Gregor, no. j/p spam usually don't matter
03:46:31 <myndzi> well you could use the part message
03:46:39 <variable> *doesn't matter
03:46:42 <myndzi> definitely ignore the obnoxious user
03:46:45 <myndzi> at least temporarily
03:47:00 <variable> Gregor, as well as limiting channel joins to 1/3 min or so
03:47:07 <Gregor> myndzi: I don't want to ignore, it's possible that they just forgot to op or something.
03:47:26 <myndzi> ok, ignore on two offenses then ;p
03:47:36 <variable> Gregor, idea:
03:47:39 <Gregor> Maybe I'll just keep it as-is: Only people who are considered ops to glogbot itself are allowed to !glogbot_join, but others may !glogbot_part if they're ops on the channel in question.
03:47:40 <variable> make it depend on /invite
03:47:45 <Gregor> OOOOH
03:48:02 <myndzi> oh, i thought he was already making use of /invite
03:48:14 <myndzi> i never /invite, forgot you had to be op
03:48:17 <myndzi> thought it was conditional
03:48:23 <variable> myndzi, by default you must be op
03:48:26 <myndzi> like, if channel is +i only ops can invite or something
03:48:37 <variable> there is a channel flag for everyone invite
03:48:41 <myndzi> huh
03:48:49 <myndzi> freenode specific probably then
03:48:58 <variable> myndzi, possibly
03:49:11 <variable> Gregor, another option is to *join* but not *log*
03:49:19 <variable> but on fn /invite works
03:49:26 <Gregor> I'm loving the /invite idea.
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04:03:46 <Gregor> Yup, /invite = good times.
04:08:31 <Gregor> So yeah, if anybody wants their channel logged, /invite glogbot.
04:09:28 <Sgeo> glogbot?
04:09:39 <Gregor> My fancy new logger bot I made because I wanted logs in a raw format.
04:09:44 <zzo38> Perhaps it can help that immediately after invited, sends a NOTICE to the channel with the URL of the logs for that channel?
04:10:06 <zzo38> Gregor: That is good, now we have 2 formats on glogbot and 1 format on clog.
04:10:13 <Gregor> zzo38: You're right, it should.
04:10:27 <Sgeo> It should be a Freenode service
04:10:43 <zzo38> Sgeo: Or perhaps a subcommand of CS
04:10:48 <Sgeo> That way, logs in topic can be.. well, can't know if theere are other logbots, but
04:11:03 <Sgeo> Semi-enforced
04:11:28 <zzo38> Like, CS LOGS to configure logs for a channel and view status information about logs for a channel.
04:12:43 <zzo38> At least to me, it makes sense, that if it were a Freenode service, make it a subcommand of the CS command. Now anyone can check if there is logs by typing something such as CS LOGS STATUS #freenode
04:13:03 <zzo38> Or CS LOGS #freenode STATUS
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04:15:38 <zzo38> Perhaps if they do that, subcommands of CS LOGS might be: STATUS START STOP NEW TIMEZONE MESSAGE AUXLINK ANNOTATE
04:30:44 <Gregor> <variable> Gregor, another option is to *join* but not *log* // btw I don't really have the ability to use this option, as my logs include literally every byte into and out of the bot excluding the nickserv identification request.
04:31:20 <Gregor> Even privmsgs are all publicly logged.
04:31:30 <variable> Gregor, ah, I see
04:31:42 <variable> /invite works on Freenode then
04:31:51 <variable> on other networks I duno
04:31:58 <zzo38> INVITE is a standard IRC command.
04:32:01 <Gregor> This is a one-network logger bot :P
04:32:10 <Gregor> zzo38: The problem with other networks is that I'm using /invite to imply +o
04:32:18 <Gregor> zzo38: That's only true (by default) on Freenode.
04:32:22 <variable> zzo38, yes - but I don't know if it could be guaranteed to be limited to opers
04:32:34 <variable> erm - what Gregor said :-p
04:33:14 <zzo38> Well, glogbot is for Freenode only anyways; if it is made for other networks as well then more features to edit those configuration can be added to it.
04:33:50 <Gregor> Yuh
04:35:39 <zzo38> On my own server it is not problem for a few reasons, one of which is that it uses server side logging. Also the policy is different, and only channels with topic messages are logged anyways, so there is no such problem. If other IRC networks could also do server side logging then it is not much of the problem anymore. Such as adding a CS LOGS command, for networks that use the CS command.
04:36:29 <zzo38> In Freenode, if you use the command HELP INVITE it tells you a few things about the INVITE command in IRC.
04:39:26 <zzo38> Neither HELP INVITE nor HELP CMODE tells anything about only operators use INVITE command.
04:40:27 <zzo38> Another possibility is to have it log channels with the property USEGLOGBOT set.
04:41:55 <zzo38> I think even with networks with CS, they do not all support CS SET PROPERTY though.
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04:51:16 <Sgeo> I probably should not start humming My Heart Will Go On when I see some trigonometry
04:51:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you?
04:52:03 <Sgeo> Just in this one case
04:53:02 <zzo38> Why?
04:53:22 <Sgeo> "That's a very complicated way of doing it, so there's an easier way" as though difficulty just makes easier ways appear out of magic
04:53:45 <Sgeo> Because "near [cos], far [sin], wherever you are"...
05:03:20 <zzo38> ?
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05:11:10 <Sgeo> Let's move to space!
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07:07:10 <coppro> WHY AM I STILL AWAKE?
07:08:54 <zzo38> BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT STILL SLEEPING!
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07:09:36 * pikhq_ is getting a kick out of the myth of Osiris and Isis...
07:10:14 <pikhq_> Osiris died and rose again. Through him all can have eternal life.
07:10:30 <pikhq_> And it was a common ritual to consume his flesh, in the form of unleavened bread.
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07:38:04 <pikhq_> Man, there's still native speakers of one of the languages on the Rosetta Stone.
07:42:55 <pikhq_> Fucking Greek.
07:43:25 <pikhq_> Having the oldest writings that can, in a genuinely meanigful sense, be said to be in a modern language.
07:47:41 <augur> pikhq_: no.
07:47:47 <augur> that is incorrect.
07:48:08 <augur> ancient greek and modern greek are not mutually intelligible.
07:48:32 <pikhq_> I thought they actually had a large degree of mutual intelligibility?
07:48:35 <augur> no.
07:51:22 <pikhq_> Okay, then I guess the claim for "oldest writings that can, in a genuinely meaningful sense, be said to be in a modern language" would almost have to go for Classical Chinese. Except the damned bastards in China had to kill that off last century. :P
07:51:44 <augur> also classical chinese is quite distinct from mandarin.
07:51:51 <pikhq_> Yes, I'm well aware.
07:51:57 <augur> and even last century noone spoke classical chinese natively
07:52:23 <pikhq_> The use of Classical Chinese was more akin to the use of Latin than anything else, except it took longer to stop.
07:52:35 <augur> yes
07:52:40 <augur> but that doesnt make it a modern language.
07:53:34 <pikhq_> Except that it served as essentially the *only* form of writing.
07:53:49 <augur> so?
07:54:02 <pikhq_> So, "modern" in the sense that people actually used it, not modern in the sense that it was a fucking zombie language.
07:54:07 <augur> no
07:54:14 <augur> "people" didnt actually use it
07:54:33 <augur> it was the written language, sure
07:54:33 <augur> but you forget
07:54:46 <augur> most chinese people were completely illiterate, and the only people who could write did so for rather officious reasons
07:55:12 <pikhq_> Oh, dur, Chinese literacy only really came about after the switch to "vernacular" Chinese.
07:55:20 <augur> exactly.
07:55:45 <pikhq_> (though, Written Chinese is only an accurate encoding of the vernacular for a *subset* of speakers of Chinese languages... But I digress.)
07:56:07 <augur> modern written mandarin is indeed only accurate for mandarin speakers
07:56:19 <augur> but thats like saying modern written dutch is only accurate for dutch speakers
07:56:21 <augur> well duh
07:56:26 <augur> germans write in written german
07:56:32 <augur> cantonese speakers write in written cantonese
07:56:44 <pikhq_> And every other speaker of a Chinese language is boned.
07:56:52 <augur> what
07:57:13 <pikhq_> Most of the Chinese languages are not commonly written.
07:57:40 <augur> true, but most chinese speakers write their native chinese language.
07:58:10 <augur> and the top half dozen or so chinese languages are commonly written
08:01:43 <pikhq_> Perhaps I should stick to talking about languages I actually know. :P
08:01:55 <augur> :)
08:02:47 <pikhq_> Clearly this means I need to become immortal, and thereby have time to learn all languages. :P
08:02:57 <augur> wont help
08:03:05 <pikhq_> And a time machine.
08:03:11 <augur> so basically
08:03:14 <augur> if you were a time lord
08:03:20 <pikhq_> Yes.
08:05:19 <augur> if you were a timelord you'd already know every language in the universe
08:05:22 <augur> mostly
08:05:43 <pikhq_> Yes, if I were actually a timelord.
08:06:04 <pikhq_> If I merely had some of the properties of a timelord, I'd have to work at it. But what's a few millenia out of eternity, anyways?
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08:53:09 <augur> pikhq: mind you, time lords only get 13 lives
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12:24:12 <Phantom_Hoover> COMRADE PIKHQ WHY IS GLORIOVS CHANNEL TOPIC CONTAINING CAPITALIST LOWER CASE
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13:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> [[A falling cat's terminal velocity is 100 km/h]] — WP
13:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I... how did they...
13:55:31 <fizzie> Maybe with the vertical wind tunnel + net thing.
13:56:02 <Phantom_Hoover> BEST MENTAL IMAGE EVER
13:56:21 -!- hipsterpumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:56:25 <Gregor> Or maybe with MATH.
13:56:28 <Gregor> You lunatics.
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13:56:49 <oklopol> "<fizzie> Maybe with the vertical wind tunnel + net thing." <<< luckiest cat in the world
13:57:17 <fizzie> There's no citation for that number. :/
13:57:35 <oklopol> well anyone can check it
13:57:37 <Gregor> [citation needed]
13:57:52 <oklopol> you just need a cat and an earth
13:57:52 <fizzie> oklopol: But that would be ORIGINAL RESEARCH, a big no-no.
13:57:58 <oklopol> :P
13:57:59 <oklopol> tru
13:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I am now eternally depressed that that experiment has already been done.
13:59:01 <oklopol> why don't they like original research? it makes sense but i'm not sure why
13:59:15 <oklopol> which reminds me that i really really want to play mc right now
14:00:59 <oklopol> the pixels are too big on my screen
14:02:08 <fizzie> I play MC with the 960x1200 window instead of fullscreen partially because the vertically oriented window doesn't make it scale the UI parts so hueg.
14:02:49 <oklopol> oh sorry the mc and the pixel comment didn't have anything to do with each other
14:02:58 <fizzie> Ah. Well, still!
14:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, #esoteric-minecraft
14:04:02 <oklopol> i'm not actually *going* to play, i have to prove theorems and prepare a lecture and watch a season of house
14:04:20 <fizzie> In that order?
14:04:29 <oklopol> well, umm
14:04:49 <oklopol> probably in the order 1. watch a season of house 2. oh fuck it's late i'll wake up at 3am to do the rest
14:05:28 <oklopol> but a man can drem
14:05:29 <oklopol> *dream
14:05:39 <fizzie> *dremel
14:05:57 <Gregor> No, oklopol can drem.
14:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Best word seen on WP: "destinated".
14:17:13 <Gregor> There are in fact 42 instances of "destinated" *bran axplote*
14:17:15 <Gregor> ...
14:17:17 <Gregor> *brain too*
14:17:35 <fizzie> How many instances of "axplote"?
14:17:45 <Gregor> Zero, thankfully :P
14:18:08 <oklopol> the material i'm doing had this pretty hilarious theorem, "for small enough value of a there exist d = d(a) and a constant B_a such that m_B(B_d^n(y)) <= B_a*e^(-nh) for all y \in X, n >= 1" where m_B is a measure, and B_d^n(y) is a kind of ball around y; and then they build, given a value of a, d and B_a with a straight face :D
14:18:21 <oklopol> well i guess you had to be there.
14:18:26 <oklopol> but i can't stop laughing
14:19:37 <oklopol> d and B_a depend on a, and they don't even explicitly mention what "small enough" means, even though that is all that matters since m_B(B_d^n(y)) <= B_a*e^(-nh) doesn't even use "a" anywhere
14:23:16 <oklopol> actually for fun, let me define B_d^n(x), it is the set {y \in X | \forall 0 <= i < n: dist(x, y) < d}, where X is a compact metric space and T is an homeomorphism of the space to itself (the dynamics, which we assume reversible here)
14:23:18 <oklopol> erm
14:23:44 <oklopol> B_d^n(x) = {y \in X | \forall 0 <= i < n: dist(x, T^i(y)) < d} of course
14:24:12 <oklopol> okay last attempt: B_d^n(x) = {y \in X | \forall 0 <= i < n: dist(T^i(x), T^i(y)) < d}
14:24:22 <oklopol> now it should make sense
14:29:12 <oklopol> people never join the definition frenzy with their own definitions, and it's no fun alone
14:29:15 <oklopol> :(
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14:30:27 <oklopol> okay let (X, T) be as previously, we say T is expansive if there exists a constant d such that for all x, y \in X, exists n such that dist(T^n(x), T^n(y)) > d
14:31:49 <oklopol> all x!=y of course
14:39:41 <oklopol> hmm, it seems if there are no isolated points then necessarily the n don't have a uniform bound: given d, we take an arbitrary x. by continuity of T, there exists d_1 such that dist(T'(x), y) < d_1 implies dist(x, T(y)) < d, where T' is the inverse of T. similarly, we find d_i for all i, so that if dist(T'^i(x), y) < d_i, then dist(x, T^i(y)) < d. if there are no isolated points, we can then always choose some such y
14:39:58 <oklopol> x isolated point = {x} is an open set
14:40:09 <oklopol> that is, there exists an open ball that is a singleton set
14:40:21 <oklopol> (that contains x)
14:42:00 <oklopol> actually my first instinct was that there must be a uniform bound, by what compactness usually gives you. but it's actually a rather retarded thing to think now that i think about it.
14:45:08 <oklopol> DEFINITION FRENZY
14:47:44 <Gregor> frenzy (n): See orgy
14:48:03 <oklopol> actually i was just thinking about math orgies today
14:48:15 <Gregor> Best (worst?) kind of orgies.
14:49:18 <oklopol> Sgeo has some good definitions i'm sure
14:49:30 <oklopol> Sgeo: would you like to engage in exchange of mental fluids
14:49:54 <Sgeo> I'm going to pretend I'm AFK
14:49:58 <oklopol> :D
14:50:21 <oklopol> on a completely other matter, what have you learned on the courses?
14:51:28 <oklopol> did you ever manage to prove that (x + y)/2 + 0/2 = x/2 + y/2
14:51:41 <oklopol> you gave up last time
14:52:46 <Sgeo> Wha?
14:53:01 <oklopol> the intersection of diagonals problem
14:53:14 <oklopol> i can give you a hint: you need two axioms, one is not enough
14:54:15 <oklopol> sadistic bitches, there are like 10 axioms so level 2 requires like 100 attempts
14:55:27 <oklopol> oh wait then there's the axioms (ab)*v = a*(b*v) where a, b in the field, v a vector. when the scalars are R, that might take some time
14:55:32 <oklopol> *axiom
14:56:00 <oklopol> you can apply that... what's 4 times uncountable?
14:56:04 <oklopol> anyway that many times
14:56:40 <oklopol> but it's divisible by two, so maybe you could prove the claim for p*uncountable where p is a prime first, and then show the the numbers that satisfy it are closed under multiplication
14:57:12 <oklopol> (i hope i don't have to clarify that this makes absolutely no sense)
14:57:34 <oklopol> erm and i meant 4 is composite
15:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so wait, have you given up on the category theory?
15:07:12 <oklopol> oooo category theory :o
15:07:22 <oklopol> Sgeo: teach me some category theory
15:08:07 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, it's, like, lines.
15:08:16 <oklopol> ah okay so far so good what then
15:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, oerjan mentioned he was a line researcher once...
15:08:29 <oklopol> can you have many lines, like, over 67
15:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps you could ask him for insights on the matter.
15:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> 67 is far beyond my ken.
15:08:47 <oklopol> okay
15:08:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I can barely go above 5.
15:09:02 <oklopol> 5 is actually pretty big
15:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, took me years to get that high.
15:11:28 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: u got any fun definitions
15:11:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, if I could learn all of math all at once, I would
15:11:46 <Sgeo> There happens to be more convenient learning material for multivariable calculus
15:11:52 <oklopol> me too especially all of it
15:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, multivariable calculus is the boring.
15:12:01 <oklopol> and in particular, everything
15:12:10 <oklopol> calculus is pretty meh yeah
15:15:18 <oklopol> semigroups are the more fun
15:16:24 <Phantom_Hoover> "Semigroup" is such a stupid name.
15:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> They're a third of a group, not half!
15:16:48 <oklopol> yes yes and pi should be 2pi, stop repeating your crazy arguments
15:17:47 <Gregor> glogbot now sends you a notice if you set the /topic to something that doesn't contain the logging URL. I estimate time until somebody bitches about that to be roughly two days. Excluding the response immediately to this message.
15:18:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOVS MARXIST yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | DIELECTRIC SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: REMOVED FOR SOCIALIST SCIENCE.
15:18:28 <oklopol> Gregor: i dislike you because you implemented that penis of a feature
15:18:48 <Gregor> lawl, apparently it always notices me X-D
15:18:49 <Gregor> *fixfix*
15:19:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOVS MARXIST yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | DIELECTRIC SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: REMOVED FOR MORE SOCIALIST SCIENCE.
15:19:02 <Gregor> OK, NOW it notices the offender :P
15:19:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOVS MARXIST yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | DIELECTRIC SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
15:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Freenode policy since when?
15:19:42 <oklopol> since ever
15:19:52 <Gregor> Since the beginning of time.
15:20:07 <fizzie> I thought it was just a suggestion. And/or to mention the logging in the welcome message, not the topic.
15:20:21 <oklopol> and what does mister newbie know
15:20:29 <oklopol> i've been here for years
15:20:39 <oklopol> and i wonder even read part of the welcome message of this channel
15:20:47 <oklopol> ...
15:20:48 <oklopol> *once
15:20:52 <fizzie> "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact."
15:20:57 <fizzie> I guess at least now it says like that.
15:21:09 <fizzie> Still a "should".
15:21:12 <Gregor> It's somewhat unclear whether it's a strict policy or just a strong suggestion.
15:21:23 <Gregor> But either way it's a glogbot policy to consider it a Freenode policy :P
15:21:36 <oklopol> it's #esoteric policy tho
15:21:38 <fizzie> "Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging --"
15:21:58 <Gregor> That's trickier with a raw logging bot :P
15:22:29 <oklopol> heeey i want to be able to make comments without logging
15:22:46 <Gregor> Suggested mechanism?
15:22:52 <Gregor> I could make it not log channel notices.
15:22:57 <oklopol> then i won't have to censor my speech all the time
15:23:15 <fizzie> <span x-esoteric-log:logging="false" xmlns:x-esoteric-log="http://codu.org/glogbot-namespaces/logging-metadata">Can I do it like this?</span>
15:23:17 <Gregor> I wonder if clog logs notices ...
15:23:27 <oklopol> i think it does
15:23:32 <Gregor> fizzie: Yeah, I'm not gonna parse pseudoHTML :P
15:23:59 <Gregor> Yup, it does.
15:24:17 <Gregor> Well, I could make glogbot not (publicly) log notices anyway, but it'd be pretty pointless.
15:24:32 <fizzie> How many logs would a clog log, if clog could log logs?
15:24:57 * Gregor pokes fizzie in the eye with a stick.
15:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, pseudoHTML = XML?
15:26:03 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: <span> tastes like HTML to me.
15:27:06 <fizzie> Maybe you could keep a map of "don't log this" :nick!user@host prefixes, and add to that list whenever says "glogbot: I hate you I hate you I HATE YOU"?
15:27:57 <fizzie> Then it's stateful, though. :/
15:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover> NO GOOD SOCIALIST WOVLD HATE COMRADE GLOGBOT
15:28:16 <Gregor> It's stateful anyway, it has a channel list and op list *shrugs*
15:28:17 <Phantom_Hoover> IS THAT NOT TRVE, COMRADE FUNGOT?
15:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
15:28:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: more time,
15:28:41 <fizzie> fungot: Couldn't you be case-insensitive anyway?
15:28:41 <fungot> fizzie: i had actually forgotten most of the time
15:28:59 <Gregor> FUNGOT YOU HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN OFTEN ENOUGH
15:29:04 <Gregor> ^^^ case in point
15:31:23 <Sgeo> I'd like to be able to make one-off comments that aren't logged
15:31:53 <fizzie> Perhaps you just mass-privmsg your non-logged comments to everyone on channel.
15:32:11 <fizzie> (That's going to be real popular.)
15:32:17 <Gregor> *mass-notice
15:32:23 <Gregor> So it doesn't open query windows (usually)
15:32:25 <fizzie> Mass-destruct.
15:32:41 <Gregor> I can add nonlogged bits to glogbot, but it's pointless w/ clog still here.
15:32:44 <fizzie> It's still going to end up not being associated with the correct channel.
15:32:58 <Gregor> fizzie: Better to be in the wrong channel than in a bloody query window.
15:33:20 <fizzie> What was wrong with clog, incidentally? (Except the fact that it's broken every now and then.)
15:33:28 <Gregor> I just wanted raw logs.
15:33:50 <fizzie> Raw and BLOODY.
15:33:59 <Gregor> Raw and GETTIMEOFDAYEY
15:34:27 <fizzie> So how does your logging format distinguish between the two seconds around a leap second that have the same unix-time number?
15:34:47 <Gregor> IT DOES NOT, AND EVERYBODY GETS CONFUSED
15:34:52 <fizzie> Oh NO!
15:35:57 <fizzie> (More Lemmings.)
15:38:11 <Gregor> Unless ...
15:38:23 <Gregor> Does gettimeofday do something tricky with it?
15:38:35 <fizzie> I don't think it does, no.
15:38:37 <Gregor> Like report tv_usec values greater than 100000
15:38:40 <Gregor> Hm
15:38:49 <Gregor> I typoed 1000000 btw :P
15:40:31 <fizzie> ".. proposed a similar solution:
15:40:31 <fizzie> gettimeofday() will not return during 23:59:60. If a process calls
15:40:31 <fizzie> gettimeofday() during a leap second, then the call will sleep until 0:00:00
15:40:31 <fizzie> when it can return the correct result.
15:40:31 <fizzie> This horrified the real-time people. It is, however, strictly speaking,
15:40:33 <fizzie> completely correct.
15:40:45 <fizzie> Heh, that would be a rather unexpected "solution".
15:40:56 <fizzie> (I don't think anything does that.)
15:41:06 <Gregor> Yeah, that's Very Bad™ w.r.t. realtime.
15:41:35 <Gregor> It could just fail with E_INTERRUPTED (or whatever that error code is) if it's called at the wrong time.
15:41:46 <Gregor> But I suppose most people work under the assumption that gettimeofday never fails :P
15:42:32 <olsner> a pretty funny workaround though
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15:43:25 <fizzie> Someone has suggested a CLOCK_UTC secondary clock, for which clock_gettime would return >=1000000000 tv_nsec values.
15:43:29 <fizzie> (Aways.)
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16:10:54 <cheater99> hi blogs
16:13:27 <ais523> hmm, I wouldn't expect this channel to be full of blogs
16:14:06 <cheater99> ais523: at least oklopol is a blog (and possibly more people)
16:14:35 <ais523> do you mean "blogger"?
16:15:09 <cheater99> nope, blog.
16:15:12 <oklopol> everyone says i'm a blog and i don't am in my opinion :(
16:15:21 <cheater99> oklopol: yes you do.
16:15:29 <cheater99> you do are!
16:15:44 <oklopol> i guess i am amn't i :\
16:16:02 <cheater99> turns out
16:16:45 <Gregor> *confirmed*
16:17:26 <ais523> oklopol: that's some of the best abuse of grammar I've ever seen, I'm impressed
16:18:31 <oklopol> i am amn't i = i am (am)^{-1} i = i i = 1 if i is an involution though
16:18:45 <oklopol> but am i an involution?
16:19:03 <oklopol> this is where math stops and poetry begins
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16:36:17 <fizzie> oklopol: I think you're more of an involuntary than an involution.
16:38:02 <oklopol> can you elaborate on that? i'm not entirely sure what you mean
16:38:11 <oklopol> preferably in semigroup terms
16:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> You're, like, the associative law.
16:39:04 <fizzie> 1. (1) involuntary, nonvoluntary, unvoluntary -- (not subject to the control of the will; "involuntary manslaughter"; "involuntary servitude"; "an involuntary shudder"; "It (becoming a hero) was involuntary. They sank my boat"- John F.Kennedy)
16:39:12 <fizzie> Those quotes sound very okoish.
16:40:20 <oklopol> well i suppose i've experimented in all of those
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16:59:03 <cheater99> involuntary fart
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17:34:57 * tswett scans the names list for ehird and finds him absent.
17:35:28 <tswett> Gregor: you'll have to fulfill the role of ehird, then.
17:35:34 <tswett> How's Minecraft been treating you?
17:35:40 <ais523> tswett: e's "elliott" on IRC nowadays, but isn't here right now
17:39:41 <Sgeo> ais523, is multivariable calculus, in fact, boring?
17:39:58 <ais523> Sgeo: it can become routine after a while
17:40:10 <ais523> I'm not sure I'd call it boring, it's more like arithmetic, just more complex
17:40:24 <ais523> it's certainly boring if you have to do it hundreds of times out of context for no reason
17:40:26 <ais523> but so are most things
17:40:52 <Sgeo> Should I bother continuing this MIT thing, or should I look for something else to try to learn?
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17:52:06 <Gregor> KITTY KITTY KITTY KITTY KITTY KITTY
18:09:05 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:10:32 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, yeah, elliott stormed off and hasn't been seen since.
18:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, he's online AtM.
18:12:01 <tswett> Gregor: I see. Excellent.
18:13:13 <zzo38> Why does anyone with ops need to request glogbot parted, can't you use the KICK command for that? Just like INVITE can join, then KICK can part, isn't it?
18:13:48 <Gregor> zzo38: I suppose I could make kick serve that function, good point. !glogbot_part is just a bit more civil :P
18:15:02 <oklopol> Sgeo: learning theory is overrated, just do math problems and all will be zen
18:18:15 <oklopol> on your level, you can find fun exercises by just browsing wp and proving definitions of things equivalent
18:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, WP is not useful for learning or getting interesting problems.
18:20:14 <oklopol> i imagine proving the definitions of continuity to be equivalent would not be trivial for him
18:20:27 <Gregor> zzo38: Done.
18:20:43 <oklopol> Gregor: i'm sure you can prove them equivalent easily, that's not the point. and i'm not zzo
18:20:54 <oklopol> although 13 seconds is impressive
18:21:01 <oklopol> *16
18:21:04 <oklopol> -..-.
18:21:10 <oklopol> i'm sort of a retard
18:21:14 <oklopol> 13 was correct.
18:24:46 <oklopol> also mostly my point was that on his level, he can *even use wikipedia*
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18:25:37 <oklopol> that is, anything.
18:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> What's Sgeo's level, again?
18:25:44 <oklopol> he's a total noob
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18:39:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Well duh, but how much of a noob?
18:41:27 <oklopol> i suppose the standard kind of noob, can't really do anything unless it has to do with reals
18:41:42 <oklopol> that is, some integration/arithmetics shit
18:42:08 <Gregor> A New Kind of Noob
18:42:27 <oklopol> i suppose i mean someone who doesn't care about sets
18:42:44 <Phantom_Hoover> God, reals.
18:42:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate the bastards.
18:43:09 <oklopol> i like them when they are used in moderation
18:43:33 * Phantom_Hoover recalls that x^x behaves quite weirdly if you go below 0, but he couldn't be bothered to actually wrestle with Mathematica enough to work out more.
18:43:46 <oklopol> i mostly use them to metrize topologies
18:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Who doesn't?
18:44:19 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: google "The x^x spindle"
18:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I AIN'T HAVIN' NONE OF YOUR WOLFRAM DEMONSTRATIONS
18:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathematica thinks 0^0 is undefined.
18:45:16 <Phantom_Hoover> *indeterminate
18:45:19 <Phantom_Hoover> PHILISTINES
18:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It also makes graphing functions from R to C unnecessarily difficult.
18:52:27 <zzo38> I madea graph of y=x^x in my graphing calculator. I made it graph one line for the real and one for imaginary.
18:54:26 <cheater99> what did you get??
18:54:39 <cheater99> +
18:56:43 <zzo38> On the negative x, the real and imaginary line both are curved up and down (and they cross each other). On positive x, the imaginary is zero and the real goes slightly down and then curves upward. 0^0=1 and the line is proper there
18:57:06 <Mathnerd314> what scale did you use?
18:57:48 <zzo38> xmin=-2.5, xmax=2.5, xscl=.25, ymin=-2.5, ymax=2.5, yscl=.25, xres=2.
18:58:32 <cheater99> hey can mathematica open this cdf stuff or do i really really need the "player"?
18:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, there's a new version of Mathematica out.
19:01:12 -!- variable has joined.
19:11:47 <zzo38> I partially made a documentation for TeX Chess. http://sprunge.us/NKBJ http://sprunge.us/Geaf
19:14:09 <zzo38> Is this good?
19:15:59 <zzo38> The title page has the hacker emblem with chess.
19:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> And all the torrents are Windows-only.
19:21:57 -!- cheater00 has joined.
19:22:18 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Then don't use Mathematica.
19:24:28 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:30:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:33:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:42:54 <Mathnerd314> zzo38: then use... what?
19:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, Khan Academy doesn't seem to have anything on abstract algebra.
19:46:56 <copumpkin> Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't handle a lot of the actual interesting math out there
19:46:58 <oklopol> if khan academy is the one i checked out, they don't really have anything
19:47:13 <copumpkin> they cover a lot of high school math and intro college math
19:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I was confused by that given the recommendations for it.
19:48:12 <copumpkin> I hear it's quite good for those things
19:48:16 <copumpkin> but definitely doesn't go into much depth
19:54:06 <Mathnerd314> there is simply *no room* on the internet for in-depth mathematics
19:54:30 <ais523> the internet is not paper!
20:00:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:18:44 <pikhq> Yeah. Paper's cheap.
20:18:48 <pikhq> Bits are expensive.
20:18:49 <pikhq> :P
20:20:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You'll be wanting some bits then? That'll be a guinea for an ounce.
20:20:28 <pikhq> Afraid I've only got that in pence.
20:23:08 -!- iGnoi has joined.
20:24:02 <iGnoi> pisya
20:24:10 <iGnoi> ;)
20:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ferimulliga.
20:24:34 <iGnoi> :)
20:24:37 <oklopol> fansa etteta japinozua
20:24:40 <iGnoi>
20:24:44 <iGnoi> :D
20:24:48 <oklopol> ```oo
20:24:50 <Phantom_Hoover> æthelred
20:24:51 <HackEgo> No output.
20:24:54 <iGnoi>
20:24:57 <Phantom_Hoover> XD
20:25:09 <oklopol> iiirirrrioo iroo iiirrrroriooi
20:25:14 <iGnoi> Phantom_Hoover, esh kall
20:25:22 <oklopol> sho sehemell?
20:25:25 <iGnoi> suka
20:25:27 <iGnoi> ^)
20:25:31 <oklopol> stetta :DD
20:25:35 <iGnoi> HUI HUI HUI
20:25:42 <oklopol> han JAKEL! Xd
20:25:52 <iGnoi> I`M RUSSIAN PIDARAS
20:25:59 <iGnoi> ;)
20:26:07 <oklopol> i'm finnish zdedeflemek :DS
20:26:23 <iGnoi> FFFFFFFUuuuu~~~
20:26:30 <oklopol> yeah fuck that shit
20:26:51 -!- iGnoi has left.
20:27:30 <oklopol> another day on #esoteric
20:30:23 <zzo38> iGnoi: Your message won't work to anyone with their client set to UTF-8
20:30:41 <oklopol> i could read it just fine
20:30:58 <zzo38> oklopol: Did you set your client to UTF-8 or something else?
20:31:04 <oklopol> i don't know
20:31:19 <zzo38> Probably not UTF-8, because it will not display in UTF-8 mode.
20:31:32 <oklopol> it was high quality white noise
20:31:43 <oklopol> as intended, i'm sure
20:32:39 <zzo38> To me it just looks like one solid block which is very long
20:34:08 <oklopol> oh okei
20:34:09 <oklopol> *okay
20:34:14 <oklopol> that was weird
20:34:16 <oklopol> anyhow
20:36:49 <Gregor> UTF-8 is the One True Solution
20:59:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
20:59:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:59:40 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: yah, at least.
21:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Quick, someone tell me what the hell the mask in regionset does.
21:07:40 -!- lament has joined.
21:29:22 <zzo38> Tell me if you can solve the following chess game (as the white (uppercase) player): 8/8/8/2p5/1pp5/brpp4/qpprpK1P/1nkbn3
21:29:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
21:32:46 <oklopol> zzo38: i can tell you i *won't* solve it
21:32:53 <oklopol> you're welcome
21:33:00 <zzo38> oklopol: OK, then don't, is OK.
21:33:08 <zzo38> Can you unsolve it?
21:34:22 <ais523> zzo38: it's got to be a stalemate, surely?
21:34:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:34:34 <zzo38> ais523: No, it isn't.
21:34:56 <ais523> Black's pawns are going rightwards, as usual?
21:35:08 <ais523> I vaguely recognise the position, I may have seen it before
21:35:11 <ais523> but I can't remember the solution
21:35:32 * oerjan thought black pawns usually went downwards
21:35:51 <zzo38> Black pawns are going as usual (they are all stuck currently).
21:36:16 <ais523> I mean, rightwards in the notation
21:36:22 <zzo38> oerjan: They go from rank 7 to rank 1, and white pawns go from rank 2 to rank 8. So, yes they do go downward.
21:36:30 <ais523> oh, they're stuck on pieces
21:36:35 <zzo38> ais523: And yes they go rightwards in the notation (digits means blank spaces)
21:37:28 <ais523> I recognise the notation, just forgot which was left and which was right
21:37:50 <zzo38> OK, now you know.
21:37:57 <oerjan> <oklopol> well i guess you had to be there.
21:38:01 <oerjan> i'd think.
21:40:05 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, oerjan mentioned he was a line researcher once...
21:40:08 <oerjan> what?
21:40:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:41:34 <zzo38> How do you think it can be stalemate? I think it is clearly win for white regardless of which player plays first.
21:41:35 <oklopol> oerjan: i think he was being colorful
21:41:54 <ais523> zzo38: I misread it as having blank spaces in front of Black's pawns
21:42:10 <zzo38> Black is all blocked everywhere because they have too many things in the wrong place.
21:44:54 <zzo38> Actually I do not think it can work if black plays first, because then black can promote and unblock everything.
21:45:12 <oerjan> <Gregor> I could make it not log channel notices.
21:45:26 <oerjan> i recall from earlier clog doesn't log strange CTCP's :D
21:45:36 <oerjan> <CTCP>LIKE this<CTCP>
21:46:10 <ais523> oerjan: I do like that, but can't figur out how to send a response in my client
21:46:15 <ais523> *figure
21:46:21 <ais523> because I can't type the control-A
21:46:21 <zzo38> What if it is <CTCP>inside of a message<CTCP>?
21:46:29 <ais523> oh, thanks for the control-A, I can copy-paste that
21:46:33 <oerjan> ais523: you don't have a /ctcp command?
21:46:39 <ais523> oerjan: it doesn't send replies
21:46:48 <ais523> <CTCP>like this yes I do like that<CTCP>
21:46:49 <zzo38> Maybe /ctcpnotice?
21:47:06 <zzo38> I don't know what clients or what commands the different ones have.
21:47:22 <oerjan> ais523: hm i didn't know there was a particular "reply" distinction?
21:47:31 <oerjan> but my client apparently thinks so
21:47:33 <zzo38> oerjan: NOTICE is for replies, PRIVMSG for requests.
21:47:36 <ais523> oerjan: CTCP replies are NOTICE-based, the CTCPs themselves are PRIVMSG based
21:47:42 <oerjan> aha
21:47:45 <ais523> s/PRIVMSG based/PRIVMSG-based/
21:48:20 <oerjan> ais523: except bizarrely clog _did_ log your notice version
21:48:43 <Sgeo> "A closure in Javascript is a black box. This makes sense most of the time - but not for the system designer."
21:48:48 <ais523> oerjan: who sends CTCP replies to channel?
21:48:52 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that's against the spec
21:48:55 <Sgeo> I.. never even considered that a clojure could be something other than a black box
21:48:58 <Sgeo> *closure
21:49:01 <Sgeo> Sue me
21:49:04 <ais523> <CTCP>PING 120<CTCP>
21:49:06 <zzo38> In my client both requests and replies are sent by the actual CTRL+A key (although it can be configured to automatically send replies to some messages)
21:49:39 <zzo38> You can send CTCP replies to channel manually I guess, but I do not know why. Generally automatic replies are never sent to the channel.
21:50:06 <ais523> well, I did it to make a stupid joke
21:50:10 <ais523> surely that's a good reason?
21:50:28 * zzo38 is this some reply command now that it says NOTICE?
21:50:50 <oerjan> zzo38: my client thought it was
21:51:15 <ais523> my client just showed it literally
21:51:27 <myndzi> ais523> oerjan: who sends CTCP replies to channel?
21:51:32 <myndzi> i used to flood autopingers that way
21:51:39 <myndzi> nobody protects from ctcp replies
21:51:48 <ais523> autopingers?
21:52:25 <oerjan> glogbot currently logs all of those, anyway...
21:52:52 <zzo38> My client does no special processing to replies, it just displays them. Special processing is applied to reply to requests, or to PONG to server PING. Therefore, it is immune to such attacks.
21:53:57 <myndzi> scripts that respond to the word 'ping' and then ping you
21:54:00 <myndzi> and then tell you your ping replie
21:54:10 <myndzi> which is to say: just about the most useless scripts ever
21:54:22 <myndzi> particularly when people use them in a help channel and they match on *ping*
21:54:26 <myndzi> so uhh.. yeah ;p
21:54:32 <myndzi> there's other ways to turn them "off"
21:54:33 <myndzi> ;)
21:54:46 <oerjan> myndzi: i guess they are not helping, then
21:54:57 <zzo38> Should there be a CTRL+A SPECIAL command?
21:54:58 <myndzi> it got real bad at one point
21:55:16 <myndzi> i don't want to tell someone how to use /ctcp ping only to get spammed by a bunch of noobscripts
21:55:30 <ais523> most people don't use those sorts of scripts around here anyway
21:55:40 <ais523> you have the \o/ thing, but it's the only script of that nature I've seen
21:55:40 <myndzi> |
21:55:40 <myndzi> /|
21:55:44 <myndzi> anyway one time i went to the home channel for one of the full scripts that included an autopinger
21:55:51 <myndzi> and ctcp reply flooded the channel
21:55:56 <myndzi> then giggled at all the excess floods
21:55:56 <myndzi> ;p
21:56:13 <ais523> you mean people just turn on everything, even though they haven't checked what they do?
21:56:21 <oerjan> fungot: ais523 doesn't seem to have seen you
21:56:22 <fungot> oerjan: if you really have to go to fnord either and try to make a huge difference between python and the second element is the symbol it. /misc/ _old/ fizban/ kern fnord fnord'
21:56:27 <Gregor> oerjan: glogbot provides a raw log, so at the moment every byte that goes in and out is logged, although e.g. strange CTCPs aren't baked.
21:56:43 <Gregor> oerjan: I could make it exclude lines that matched certain parameters.
21:56:50 <ais523> oerjan: but I treat saying "fungot" (or "optbot", I suppose) as a deliberate attempt to trigger the bot
21:56:51 <fungot> ais523: is he that unreachable? and equal?
21:56:55 <Gregor> But "strange CTCP" is a strange one even for that :P
21:57:17 <Sgeo> I should probably shave
21:57:48 <myndzi> ais523: you're assuming only smart people use irc
21:57:55 <myndzi> maybe freenode has distorted your perceptions
21:57:59 <ais523> myndzi: well, they have to find the servers somehow
21:58:08 <myndzi> but the main thing is that the scripts are always written crappily
21:58:16 <myndzi> they might flood protect the 'ping me' request
21:58:22 <myndzi> but never the part that receives and responds to the reply
21:58:25 <Gregor> Hence why we're all on Freenode, and particularly on #esoteric :P
21:58:28 <Gregor> It's a sanity bastion.
21:58:43 <oerjan> yeah no one sane could ever find us
21:59:06 <myndzi> you wanna know a cool trick on bahamut based servers?
21:59:23 <Gregor> Nope :P
21:59:27 <myndzi> oh, ok then
21:59:56 <zzo38> Gregor: Probably the raw logs should keep it although it might be very useful to remove some things from formatted logs, such as discarding all control characters from all messages (clog keeps some in, although it is bad in formatted logs, it is good in raw logs to keep control characters in).
22:00:05 <zzo38> myndzi: What is trick?
22:00:12 <myndzi> gregor doesn't want to know
22:00:13 <myndzi> sorry
22:00:17 <myndzi> ;p
22:00:20 <myndzi> privmsg @+#chan,@#chan,+#chan,#chan is the trick
22:00:26 <myndzi> not so bad on dalnet
22:00:34 <myndzi> but when you realize that unreal is based on bahamut
22:00:38 <myndzi> and it has like 5 usermodes...
22:01:17 <cheater00> does that work on efnet_
22:01:19 <cheater00> ?
22:01:22 <myndzi> no
22:01:25 <myndzi> efnet uses other ircd
22:01:26 <myndzi> s
22:01:34 <zzo38> If you do that, will it send messages to operators four times?
22:01:37 <myndzi> but efnet used to have some servers with a shitty @# message handling
22:01:43 <myndzi> where it would send one message per op
22:01:51 <myndzi> zzo38: yes
22:02:01 <myndzi> sometimes the servers send to "status symbol and higher"
22:02:03 <myndzi> which would be 4 times
22:02:13 <myndzi> sometimes (like dalnet) they only send to explicit m atches
22:02:17 <myndzi> so 3 for ops, 3 for voices, 1 for regs
22:02:40 <myndzi> i reported it to quension in #bahamut years ago but nothing ever got done
22:02:46 <myndzi> they did eventually fix some other problems i reported though
22:03:03 <myndzi> i try to keep it on the "down low" because i haven't seen anyone flood that way but me :P
22:03:19 <myndzi> it is super effective though
22:04:05 <myndzi> here's another:
22:04:12 <myndzi> join 0,#channels,#to,#flood
22:04:28 <myndzi> * 5, followed by disconnect -> 10 messages to multiple channels for cheap
22:05:00 <cheater00> lol
22:05:08 <myndzi> that was my all time favorite
22:05:13 <myndzi> just whois your target, they are often on like 10 chans
22:05:23 <myndzi> plus joins bypass local +i
22:05:40 <myndzi> generally all the clones will have already joined by the time anything reacts, so you can't really stop it
22:05:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:06:11 <myndzi> oh and dccallow?
22:06:14 <ais523> Gregor: ^ this is why all those VPSes ban IRC, I suspect
22:06:19 <myndzi> it doesn't drop you from the list when you change nicks
22:06:27 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, I'm getting it :P
22:06:27 <myndzi> but watch does
22:06:35 <myndzi> use them together = track nick changes without sharing a channel
22:06:40 <myndzi> but they finally fixed that one
22:07:13 <myndzi> might still apply on derivatives that haven't upgraded though
22:07:48 <ais523> I wonder why that sort of nonsense is so rare on Freenode? idiots not finding the server? or idiots deciding it's no fun?
22:09:12 <Gregor> Just directive. Idiots join IRC just to chat and be idiots together. Then they become vicious when they get tired of being merely stupid.
22:09:33 <Gregor> People who join IRC just to chat don't join Freenode.
22:10:13 <ais523> #esoteric being an exception? or do people join here hoping it's going to spend most of its time ontopic, then decide to stay?
22:10:50 <myndzi> well
22:10:56 <myndzi> from the dalnet days of yore
22:11:07 <myndzi> it appears that the packet/flood kiddies come along with warez and stuff
22:11:13 <ais523> I mean, I'm all for ontopic talk in #esoteric, but seem to be outnumbered
22:11:15 <myndzi> you'd get competing channels that attack each other
22:11:41 <myndzi> and in general just wind up attracting the sort of people who were into trying to keep botnets and whatnot
22:11:44 <oerjan> ais523: i suggest a small FORTE program to increase your number
22:12:07 <ais523> hmm, FORTE oneliners are impossible to write, because it's impossible to put a loop in one
22:12:15 <ais523> a two-liner could be done, but I'm not sure I could write one in a hurry
22:12:25 <zzo38> ais523: I have no against ontopic talks, although you can do many things discussed in here, ontopic should generally take priority.
22:12:49 <myndzi> i mostly just learned about flooding and stuff to learn
22:12:52 <ais523> zzo38: I think you're correct
22:12:57 <myndzi> and also to write an excellent channel protection bot ;)
22:13:03 <ais523> protection from idiots?
22:13:14 <myndzi> my test bed was #0!!!!!!!!!!!!!preteen101
22:13:28 <myndzi> so i don't think anyone will hate on me for it ;p
22:13:38 <oklopol> i have no against untopic either, but i also have yes against offtopic. i like to have ontopic talks, but if you want to have offtopic talks, that is OK.
22:13:39 <myndzi> the number of times i reduced that channel to like 2 users... man...
22:13:43 <oklopol> *ontopic
22:13:54 <ais523> oklopol: nobody can do zzo38ese quite as well as zzo38
22:14:03 <ais523> although that was still quite good
22:14:04 <oklopol> i didn't try *that* hard
22:14:15 <ais523> myndzi: people actually joined it?
22:14:24 <myndzi> it usually had > 100 people
22:14:30 <myndzi> about 3 - 4 ops
22:14:32 <ais523> (also, I didn't realise channel names /could/ start with a digit)
22:14:33 <myndzi> but they all had failscripts
22:14:40 <myndzi> it doesn't it starts with a #
22:14:42 <myndzi> :P
22:14:56 <ais523> and the reduction to 2 users was just because you could? or because the other 98 were all idiots?
22:15:01 <oklopol> hey, that channel is empty
22:15:06 <myndzi> because it was a kiddie porn channel
22:15:08 <myndzi> in general i wasn't a douche to people who didn't deserve it
22:15:10 <oklopol> where's all the <13 girls
22:15:29 <myndzi> i was learning about IRC and flooding, and i took that knowledge and applied it to better things
22:15:34 <myndzi> heh
22:15:55 <ais523> couldn't you just have reported it to the police?
22:15:58 <myndzi> i did pull a few stunts for the lulz though
22:16:06 <ais523> that would likely have worked better
22:16:07 <myndzi> (like the ping reply thing above)
22:16:21 <myndzi> "hello, police? there are people on the internet trading pictures..."
22:16:21 <oklopol> nothing wrong with a good flood, if all the participants are okay with it ofc, you have to have a safe word for these things
22:16:27 <myndzi> lol.
22:16:35 <myndzi> there were many channels like that on dalnet
22:16:44 <myndzi> i don't expect the police were likely to be able to do anything about it
22:16:56 <myndzi> such people connect through proxies and whatnot
22:17:13 -!- augur has joined.
22:18:03 <myndzi> i was a kid though, i found it more fun to harass them than report them. i guess i figured that if "just reporting it" would have done anything it wouldn't exist
22:18:16 <myndzi> these days i'd look at it rather differently
22:18:26 <oklopol> why would you care
22:19:00 <myndzi> about pedos sharing pics?
22:19:04 <oklopol> yes
22:19:19 <myndzi> why wouldn't i?
22:19:28 <oklopol> seems like an essentially victimless crime
22:19:37 <myndzi> somebody makes the things
22:20:01 <oklopol> and sharing pics somehow moves money in their direction?
22:20:02 <myndzi> i suppose i can't really see a reason to disallow it if it didn't encourage more of the same
22:20:18 <oklopol> i guess the standard antipiracy arguments applky
22:20:20 <oklopol> *apply
22:20:20 <myndzi> even if i find it distasteful personally
22:20:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:20:32 <myndzi> but as far as i can tell, it's like warez and other things
22:20:38 <myndzi> where people do it for props
22:20:39 <myndzi> not m oney
22:20:41 <ais523> oklopol: actually, I think the standard /propiracy/ arguments apply: it's illegal because pirating it encourages people to find legitimate sources
22:20:48 <cheater00> oklopol: the argument of "sharing Sting songs makes people buy more Sting albums"? :DDDDD
22:21:04 <myndzi> so if there's an audience, there's more inclination to provide for that audience
22:21:06 <oklopol> ais523: perhaps that's true, yes
22:21:07 * myndzi shrugs
22:21:11 <ais523> wow, I never noticed the huge inconsistency there before
22:21:32 * ais523 continues being excessively lawful good anyway
22:21:34 <myndzi> also, while i can't exactly say that everyone who looks at such pictures is a pedo
22:21:43 <myndzi> it's likely that active pedos look at such pictures
22:21:56 <myndzi> so it's good if they live in fear of getting 'caught'
22:21:57 <myndzi> ;P
22:22:21 <myndzi> rather than just say "oh, well, the pics already exist so have fun if you want"
22:23:26 * cheater00 goes back in time and abuses 13 year old myndzi
22:23:26 * myndzi goes back in time and abuses 13 year old cheater00
22:23:35 <cheater00> <3
22:23:52 <cheater00> CAUSAL LOOP
22:23:59 <myndzi> loop de loo
22:24:03 <cheater00> UNIVERSE COLLAPSING
22:24:12 * myndzi goes back in time and divides by zero
22:26:31 <myndzi> aw, i put a burrito in the microwave on defrost and it burst
22:26:32 <myndzi> wtf
22:27:01 <cheater00> lol
22:27:08 <Gregor> wtf happened to this channel >_>
22:27:11 <cheater00> had this happen to a fruit mousse
22:27:22 <ais523> Gregor: quick, bring it back on topic
22:27:24 -!- tswett has changed nick to uorygl.
22:27:27 <cheater00> it was like berries and stuff.. the inside looked like a bloody mess
22:27:46 <myndzi> it went from ctcps to irc stuff to flooding to flooding pedo channels to pedos
22:27:47 <Gregor> ais523: I SHALL DEFEAT SLOWPOKE
22:27:53 <olsner> <Gregor> wtf happened to this channel >_> | <cheater00> it was like berries and stuff.. the inside looked like a bloody mess
22:28:15 <cheater00> olsner: hi?
22:28:37 <olsner> sounds like some kind of carnage happened to the channel
22:28:43 -!- uorygl has changed nick to tswett.
22:28:48 <ais523> Gregor: go for it
22:28:57 <ais523> I imagine FFSPG could be trivially tweaked to beat it
22:28:59 <augur> myndzi: when you loop de loop do you shoop da woop?
22:29:00 <myndzi> well i don't know any esoteric languages, just some somewhat esoteric irc things haha
22:29:01 <ais523> as I didn't realise how really close that match was
22:29:11 <ais523> myndzi: this is a good place to learn
22:29:26 <lament> and a good place to forget
22:29:58 <oerjan> lament is so good at it that he forgets to come here
22:29:59 <ais523> lament: you have a good name for it
22:30:11 <myndzi> another 'esoteric' dalnet tidbit:
22:30:32 <myndzi> chanserv doesn't break its UNBAN mode settings to < 512 bytes
22:30:52 <myndzi> so if you set bans that are long enough, you can use /cs unban to make chanserv send a mode string that gets truncated
22:31:11 <myndzi> it removes the modes it sent from its internal list, but the last one(s) that got cut off don't get removed from the channel
22:31:27 <myndzi> there was a better desynch at one point that let you make chanserv think a whole channel didn't exist when it did
22:31:36 <myndzi> but that one is fixed currently :PY
22:31:38 <myndzi> -Y
22:32:17 <myndzi> homework: write a script that creates five bans that are as long as possible and can all be set ;)
22:32:46 <myndzi> (if an existing ban covers the one you try to set it won't set, of course)
22:33:30 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it's possible to use a domain more than 510 characters long, and end up impossible to ban by domain as a result?
22:33:40 <myndzi> nope
22:33:44 <myndzi> there are limits
22:33:56 <myndzi> it reverts to the ip if the host is too long
22:35:40 <ais523> although I don't think even the guy with a whole Befunge program in their hostname would exceed that limit
22:36:47 <cheater00> what about a malbolge program.
22:37:05 <ais523> nobody likes writing those
22:42:55 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to contrapumpkin.
22:47:05 <ais523> contrapumpkin: along the lines of covariant/contravariant?
22:47:11 <contrapumpkin> yep
22:47:19 <contrapumpkin> well, co isn't necessarily covariant
22:47:24 <contrapumpkin> but contra is contravariant
22:49:07 <Gregor> co-ntravariant :P
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22:50:03 * augur is drinking co-ffee
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23:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> what? ← graph theory.
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23:11:16 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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23:24:06 <zzo38> When I finished TeX Chess document then maybe I should post version 0.1 on Chess Variants and on CTAN?
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