00:00:15 <zzo38> Easter is a statutory holiday. But if the calculation of Easter (a Canadian statutory holiday) is not part of Canadian law, then we do not have separation of church and state.
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00:02:06 <oerjan> that's sounds like a rather insignificant non-separation compared to having easter a statutory holiday in the first place.
00:03:05 <oerjan> (norway has easter a statutory holiday too, but then we don't have separation of church and state, yet)
00:03:24 <pikhq_> zzo38: You already don't possess seperation of church and state.
00:05:23 <pikhq_> zzo38: In case you weren't aware, your country operates under the legal theory that all power comes from monarchy, and the power in the monarch comes from God.
00:05:25 <zzo38> I have no problem with making such things statutory holidays, even with such names, but the law should simply say something like "This day shall be a statutory holiday, named "_____" in English and "_____" in French."
00:06:13 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, at least is the theory, but the government does the stuff not the queen. The queen though, is still queen and is on the money.
00:06:34 <pikhq_> zzo38: The government has power delegated unto it by the queen.
00:07:05 <pikhq_> All actions of your government, hence, are in a sense acting in the name of God.
00:07:33 <zzo38> At least those things are theory. But for actual laws, it should have separation of church and state; regardless of the religions of the government or of other things.
00:08:30 <pikhq_> *In practice*, yes, there is seperation of church and state.
00:08:57 <pikhq_> Of course, *in practice* almost every single country in Europe has some level of such seperation these days.
00:09:47 <zzo38> The government once tried to do it by renaming "Christmas Day" to "Gifting Season", but that is the wrong way to do it! The correct way is to just write "Twenty-fifth day of December is statutory holiday". The name of the holiday should be irrelevant for legal purposes, but write it in anyways simply for tradition, it has no actual legal meaning other than refering to that specific date.
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00:10:16 <pikhq> (exception: Stato della Città del Vaticano, which is of course a *unification* of church and state)
00:11:54 <Sgeo> o.O at Mussolini's involvement in Vatican City
00:12:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also, remember: Hitler died a Catholic in good standing.
00:13:03 <oerjan> erm, isn't suicide a rather bad sin in catholicism :D
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00:13:24 <oerjan> and you cannot get proper confession etc. after doing it...
00:14:03 <oerjan> (ok i'm only guessing on the "rather bad" part)
00:15:28 <zzo38> Of course you cannot, because you are dead. I do not care whether it is a "rather bad" sin in Catholicism, to me the thing is that live people still have things to do.
00:15:39 <oerjan> i guess he wasn't explicitly excommunicated though.
00:16:24 <oerjan> zzo38: um we are (well, i am) discussing what it means to be a "catholic in good standing". clearly that requires looking at it from catholicism's point of view.
00:17:06 <oerjan> although i recall from wikipedia there is a concept of automatic excommunication for some sins, even if no one else knows about them
00:17:55 <oerjan> (again of course this doesn't matter much to anyone who doesn't actually _want_ to be a good catholic)
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00:18:26 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae
00:18:59 <zzo38> I could try to figure out what is "Catholic in good standing", and what thing is "bad standing".
00:20:47 <Sgeo> An abortion is an automatic ex-communication?
00:21:11 <Sgeo> Yet murder isn't...
00:22:55 <Sgeo> [exemptions for:] 2/ a person who without negligence was ignorant that he or she violated a law or precept; inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance;
00:23:38 <Sgeo> Is it negligence to not seek out information on the Church's view of abortion?
00:24:08 <Sgeo> Is it ignorance to hear some Catholic saying "abortion means ex-communication", but assume that they're mistaken or lying?
00:24:19 <tswett> Always ready, always Lawlabee. Strength, safety, style, Lawlabee. Lawlabee in action. Lawlabee for beauty to have and to hold.
00:24:27 <tswett> Gregor: forgive my groveling.
00:24:52 <zzo38> Do you think either of abortion or murder is ex-communication?
00:25:20 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'd imagine that after hearing it said, it would be negligence not to check further whether it is true...
00:26:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, I'm just going by what Wikipedia says
00:26:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'd also imagine the case of abortion has been made that strict precisely because the church has trouble getting all its members to agree with it, which is not the case with murder
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01:16:11 <zzo38> In an interview with the person who invented INTERCAL, they described "a hypothetical computer described to me long ago by a co-worker who was a part-time professor at Northeastern University", which is now known as BitBitJump (I think).
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02:17:31 <pikhq> Oh, *wow*. In the name of getting men "home to their wives" earlier, Australia put a 6 PM closing time on bars.
02:17:51 <pikhq> What this actually produced was a solid hour of binge drinking between work getting out and the bars closing.
02:28:34 <pikhq> Well, if you only have an hour of legal drinking outside of the home, you might as well make it count.
02:29:22 <Gregor> I was "lolwut"ting more at the notion that Australia would set a mandatory bar closing time at all, let alone 6PM :P
02:30:02 <pikhq> The "ZOMG MUST GET RID OF ALCOHOL" thing was prevalent in much of the Western world.
02:31:10 <pikhq> And tended to make shit worse overall.
02:31:35 <pikhq> WWI and Great Depression era.
02:44:32 <pikhq> Possible GOP Presidential candidates: Michelle Bachmann, Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich, Mike Huckabee.
02:45:10 <pikhq> I do believe that Obama would have to rape babies and then serve baby au jus in order to lose.
02:48:50 * pikhq will grab the popcorn
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02:55:08 <Gregor> GLOGBOT IS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE NETSPLIT
02:55:31 <Sgeo> I saw a Serenity spoiler
02:55:43 <Sgeo> I think it might just be the focus of the entire movie, finding it out
02:56:06 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'm sorry but elliott isn't here to give a suitably ironic response.
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03:13:31 <Sgeo> Spoiler revealed with 30 min left, so maybe at least 30min will be enjoyable
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03:48:38 <zzo38> Is it broken server?
03:49:26 <zzo38> Is it broken server?
03:55:35 <zzo38> What are special days and observances in different countries?
03:58:13 <zzo38> I live in Canada and do not know the one for other countries, I should type it in since I am making a calendar program
03:58:54 <zzo38> lament: There is no 31 day in April.
03:59:58 <lament> what about leap years?
04:00:15 <zzo38> Then there is 29 day in February.
04:00:37 <zzo38> At least, is how it works in this country.
04:03:10 <pikhq> zzo38: Shōwa Day, in Japan, is April 29.
04:03:36 <pikhq> (first day of Golden Week)
04:06:11 <zzo38> OK, I added that, now if you type \Japan it will add that to the list of special days on the calendar
04:06:40 <pikhq> Heck, just hit Wikipedia; its list is likely comprehensive.
04:08:24 <zzo38> Are there any other kind of days that needs special calculation, other than Easter Sunday and the days relative to Easter Sunday?
04:08:53 <pikhq> Just about anything astronomical in origin, really.
04:09:14 <pikhq> For instance: Japan has the two equinoxes as holidays.
04:09:17 <oerjan> all the jewish and islamic holidays, since they're based on the respective calendars...
04:09:44 <pikhq> And Orthodox versions of Christian holidays.
04:09:45 <oerjan> oh and chinese new year probably
04:10:04 <zzo38> And phase of moon, I also need, although that isn't the "special days", I should still add a macro to calculate the phase of moon.
04:10:27 <zzo38> Yes I know Orthodox Easter is different, what is the difference in its calculation?
04:10:37 <oerjan> zzo38: also there are national days. basically there are at least thousands of special cases to consider.
04:10:47 <pikhq> Orthodox Christianity does not use the Gregorian calendar; they use the Julian calendar.
04:11:31 <zzo38> Then it is a good thing I already have added support for the Julian calendar (just type \julian to activate it).
04:12:05 <pikhq> Though the laity use Gregorian calendars, except they celebrate the holidays according to the date on the Julian calendar.
04:12:12 <oerjan> i also think not all orthodox christians use the same rule for calculating easter, even given julian calendar
04:12:19 <zzo38> Does the Zeller's Card method work correctly for Orthodox Easter?
04:12:43 <pikhq> oerjan: Quite possible; Orthodox Christianity is a set of sects, after all.
04:12:48 <zzo38> Well, you can type \julian \Easter \gregorian and then you will get the date of Julian Easter but using the Gregorian calendar.
04:13:13 <Gregor> Frankly I don't see it as being worth this much effort to adapt for idiots.
04:13:30 <zzo38> pikhq: How many sects are there and which ones are common that I should add to this program?
04:14:17 <pikhq> *Insofar as I am aware*, they merely use the Julian calendar instead of the Gregorian calendar for the dates of religious holidays.
04:14:23 <zzo38> And also all the other days requring special calculation (including other countries), can you tell me how it is calculated, so that they can be included in the calendar?
04:14:43 <pikhq> There's an absurd number of special cases, and I certainly don't know them all.
04:15:10 <pikhq> Though some of them are genuinely absurd cases, regardless.
04:15:39 <oerjan> at least norwegian official holidays are either fixed gregorian dates or offsets from easter.
04:16:04 <pikhq> For instance, Chinese traditional holidays are based on dates on a lunar calendar that is otherwise unused.
04:16:31 <zzo38> pikhq: If they merely use the Julian calendar for calculating dates of religious holidays, then my program should do that, since it can already calculate Julian Easter (and then you can switch back to Gregorian mode after the calculation).
04:17:15 <zzo38> oerjan: Then Norwegian holidays should be easy to put in
04:19:07 <pikhq> Also, Japan has the Emperor's birthday as a holiday. The only way to correctly handle that going forward is constant maintanence, and in the past, well, you'll want to read the Kojiki. :P
04:19:09 <zzo38> I am using the slight modification of the Zeller's Card method for days of the week and for Easter, and it works with both Julian and Gregorian. I have also found a implementation in Javascript that will check what errors there are, and the method with minor correction works for everything.
04:19:37 <oerjan> oh and even the us has that presidents' day iirc
04:19:56 <pikhq> oerjan: That's just a holiday that's in honor of past presidents.
04:20:01 <oerjan> well norway has royal birthdays too...
04:20:12 <pikhq> It's *Washington's* birthday, though.
04:20:21 <oerjan> pikhq: no not that way, i mean it's not a fixed gregorian date is it
04:20:28 <pikhq> Well, actually, it's vaguely near then.
04:20:36 <pikhq> oerjan: No, it's the third Monday of February.
04:20:56 <zzo38> I do have the command for third Monday of February and stuff like that, typing in \Third\Mon\Feb will do that.
04:21:06 <oerjan> oh right norway has those too, mother's and father's day are like that
04:21:15 <oerjan> (they're not official holidays though)
04:21:25 <pikhq> *Most* US federal holidays are on a Monday.
04:22:04 <zzo38> In Canada, Thanksgiving is on \Second\Mon\Oct (different than Thanksgiving in United States)
04:22:24 <pikhq> Yeah, US Thanksgiving is the fourth Thursday in November, instead.
04:22:30 <pikhq> For... No good reason in either case.
04:22:46 <zzo38> Then why is it like that if there is no reason?
04:22:59 <pikhq> There is a reason.
04:23:09 <pikhq> Merchants wanted it then.
04:23:21 <pikhq> Because Christmas was coming.
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07:56:23 <elliott> I have to let this idea escape before it envelops me:
07:56:30 <elliott> Profile-guided compiler warnings.
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14:08:54 <Ilari> Ouch: "I'd create a long-lived OCSP responder certificate with the OCSPNoCheck extension. This kind of certificate can't be revoked *at all*, and has the same power as a CRL-signing key (which can be revoked)." (discussing the Comodo incident).
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14:44:50 <Gregor> `addquote <anekant> what does coffee do to biological neural networks <JRowe> what tiger blood does for charlie sheen
14:44:53 <HackEgo> 336) <anekant> what does coffee do to biological neural networks <JRowe> what tiger blood does for charlie sheen
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15:17:03 <Gregor> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=21eabb90-958f-4b64-b5f1-73d0a413c8ef&displaylang=en whoahwtf
15:17:11 <Gregor> I'll bet you could run those in VirtualBox
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15:25:23 <Gregor> I frankly don't know what that means, but would assume it's in the guest software, not the host.
15:27:56 <Phantom_Hoover> They're distributing executables which are presumably emulator + HD image, so extracting it would be non-trivial.
15:34:43 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 2x4k+1k to Japan, 1M(512k+2x256k) to China, 256 to New Zealand.
15:35:07 <Ilari> Slow week... Only 0.23 blocks.
15:35:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, is that a script or are you writing this manually?
15:37:41 <fizzie> Is 1M really just 0.03 blocks? I mean, purely in-the-head that should be 1/16th of a 2^24 = 16M address block, and 0.03 is less than 1/20 = 0.05. Or what is that 0.03 number anyway?
15:38:49 <Ilari> That was from local calculation, not from the graph on APNIC site.
15:39:41 <Ilari> Estimate using same random method as yesterday now yields Tuesday April 19th.
15:39:52 <fizzie> Yes, but is it in blocks?
15:40:22 <Ilari> Yes, it is in blocks. Maybe some large block got returned/revoked?
15:41:08 <fizzie> Perhaps that; it doesn't at least seem to directly match those listed networks.
15:41:10 <fizzie> > (2*4096+1024+1048576+256)/16777216
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15:45:48 <Ilari> Reading from scrollback buffer, available addresses count was 44 281 856 yesterday, and now it is 43 806 208 (that doesn't account for setaside). That's down 475 648. Number of addresses allocated is 1 058 048, diffrence of 582 400, A /13, /17, /18, /19 and 3x/24.
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15:55:51 <Ilari> Indeed, down 0.03.
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16:47:59 <Vorpal> I think firefox 4 is BADLY confused about how many DPI my screen has
16:48:12 <Vorpal> 11pt text now looks like 17pt
16:48:25 <Vorpal> and I did check zoom first
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16:51:29 <Vorpal> also how the fuck do I move the tab bar down like it used to be
16:51:50 <Vorpal> I use the tab bar more often, thus it should be closer to the page. Less mouse movement.
16:51:53 <Deewiant> Vorpal: View -> Toolbars -> Tabs on top
16:52:12 <zzo38> Can't you use the keyboard keys for tab selection?
16:52:14 <Vorpal> phew, that made it a lot better
16:52:40 <Vorpal> zzo38, sure, but sometimes it is easier to use the mouse, like when switching to one two rows down or such
16:52:54 <zzo38> How many tabs do you use at once?
16:53:21 <Vorpal> usually varies between 3 and about 40
16:54:30 <zzo38> I never use that many. My browser tabs vary usually from 1 to 5 (and 0 of course when it is not running)
16:54:56 <fizzie> There's that "tab groups" thing, I haven't quite understood how it works yet.
16:55:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I haven't seen anything like that yet.
16:55:58 <fizzie> It seems to open a thing where the tabs are show as icons.
16:56:18 <fizzie> In the "tab list" drop-down menu at the end of the tab bar, at least for me.
16:56:53 <Vorpal> eh. Oh right. I disabled that. I use multi-row tab bar instead.
16:57:13 <Vorpal> somewhere in tabmix plus settings I think
16:57:14 <fizzie> Well, it's also ctrl-shift-e.
16:57:30 <fizzie> Don't know about how it mixes (no pun intended) with tabmixery.
16:58:05 <Vorpal> well it does seem to work. At least it does what you described (showing preview icons)
16:58:12 <Vorpal> what makes it groups though
16:58:22 <fizzie> I think you can have multiple of them windows.
16:58:28 <fizzie> At least the one seems to be movable.
16:58:40 <fizzie> And there's a "name this tab group" thing shown near the top.
16:58:58 <Deewiant> You can create a new group by dragging in the non-group area
16:59:09 <Vorpal> Deewiant, how does that affect the tab bar?
16:59:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ooh, so you can; I was *just* about to try it.
16:59:33 <Deewiant> The tab bar only shows the current group
16:59:48 <Vorpal> ah, would have been more useful if it colour coded the tabs or something
17:00:05 <Vorpal> also I see pointless visual effects
17:00:12 <fizzie> Deewiant: So how do you multi-select tabs to move them into a new group? Control-clickery, shift-clickery or drag-a-rectangle don't seem to work. :/
17:00:15 <Vorpal> when closing the tab group page
17:00:23 <Vorpal> it makes some zooming out kind of effect
17:01:09 <Deewiant> I haven't really used it other than a few minutes of playing around with rc1 :-P
17:01:20 <Vorpal> in other news Arch Linux seems to finally call Firefox Firefox
17:01:26 <Vorpal> it was nam...whatever before
17:01:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ooh, that's funky: if I close a group, it turns into a small [...] thing that says "undo close group [x]".
17:01:48 <Zwaarddijk> fuck the licensing deals firefox has re: name
17:01:55 <Deewiant> Before that, Shiretoko, for 3.5.
17:02:02 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yes I know it was the dev name. I just couldn't remember it :P
17:02:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: (... what's less funky is that the "undo" icon auto-disappeared after a dozen seconds or so.)
17:02:30 <Vorpal> and they seem to have gone for the foxy icon as well. They used the plain bluish globe icon before
17:02:55 <Vorpal> my thunderbird still isn't thunderbird however
17:03:24 <Vorpal> however, the DPI issue remains...
17:03:37 <fizzie> This thing I have now (installed a daily-ish build of 4 from the LaunchPad PPA thing) seems to call itself "Minefield".
17:05:25 <Vorpal> hm somehow restarting firefox fixed the dpi issue on normal pages
17:05:38 <Vorpal> a lot of GUI text is still huge
17:05:44 <Vorpal> this might be intentional though
17:05:56 <Vorpal> the add-on tab for example.
17:07:24 <Vorpal> and somehow the interface looks even more dumbed down
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17:09:47 <fizzie> No, I think the proper word is something like "streamlined" or "user-centricized" or "dynamistically reoriented in adventurious new ways".
17:10:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, dumbed down :P
17:11:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, also the last one is a parody right? Or has someone actually used that one seriously?
17:12:54 <fizzie> Well, I just came up with it, but of course I can't guarantee no-one's said it ever seriously.
17:13:44 <fizzie> It's not "dumbed down", it's "interactionally liminal".
17:16:06 <fizzie> I've seen artsy-and-designy people use that word in randomish contexts.
17:16:36 <Vorpal> spell checker thinks it doesn't exist.
17:16:45 <fizzie> "Liminality (from the Latin word līmen, meaning "a threshold") The liminal state is characterized by ambiguity, openness, and indeterminacy. One's sense of identity dissolves to some extent, bringing about disorientation. ..."
17:16:58 <fizzie> "a. gen. Of or pertaining to the threshold or initial stage of a process. rare. b. spec. in Psychol. Of or pertaining to a ‘limen’ or ‘threshold’."
17:25:35 <Vorpal> weird, trying to right click on a book mark and open properties for it doesn't work in firefox 4 for me
17:26:07 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I assume you switched, does that action work for you? Would be useful to know where to start looking for the cause (extensions or elsewhere)
17:27:09 <Deewiant> Yes, it works for me (in a folder in the bookmark bar)
17:27:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what about from the bookmarks menu?
17:27:37 <Vorpal> it doesn't work there, it *does* work in the bookmark bar however
17:28:53 <Vorpal> okay wtf, it works after restarting firefox
17:50:02 <zzo38> How do you make phase of moon with integer arithmetic?
17:54:16 <zzo38> If someone types on their program "Licensed under GNU GPL version 5 or later version", then does it mean you have to wait for version 5 of GNU GPL to be invented?
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18:09:18 <Gregor> zzo38: AFAIK that would effectively mean that there is no license (and so no legal use) until GPLv5 is released, but "until" doesn't usually work well in law so in practice it may very well just be no license.
18:12:00 <zzo38> Of course I was asking hypothetically, since there is probably not a real reason to write such a note on your program (if GPLv5 is not yet released).
18:12:56 <zzo38> But I have known of some copyrights which are set to expire earlier than normal, but those are just making public domain afterward, as well as being a fixed date at which it expires. So it is different than this case.
18:13:58 <Gregor> There's no legal way to actually make the copyright expire early, all those are are special licenses with time limits.
18:16:21 <zzo38> Maybe something like: "Copyright ____ All rights reserved. Special license: After the date of June 1, 2003, this work is in the public domain; if that is not possible, then after the date of June 1, 2003, everyone has irrevocable permanent license to use it for any possible use with no restrictions, as if it is not copyrighted."
18:21:41 <Gregor> The first clause has no purpose, you cannot decree something to be in the public domain in a license.
18:22:30 <zzo38> Is it correct if the first clause is omitted?
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18:35:34 <zzo38> princess: Hello, what do you want, please?
18:37:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: THIS TOPIC FAILS AT BEING BLANK | BUT IT ALSO FAILS AT REFERRING TO ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:38:02 * Gregor twiddles his thumbs :P
18:38:12 <zzo38> Well, you can just wait and seeing in case of anyone else type something you are interested with.
18:40:17 <Phantom_Hoover> princess, I'm afraid we're not the best place to learn to speak.
18:44:16 <pikhq> So we had gathered.
18:44:59 <Gregor> pikhq: Helpful as always.
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18:47:25 <pikhq> AS SUCH IS OUR WONT
18:47:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm appending to Gregor's sentence.
18:48:07 <Gregor> Then the "SUCH" is unnecessary.
18:48:50 <pikhq> Gregor: I SUCH LOVE SUCH USING SUCH UNNECESSARIILY SUCH THAT SUCH I SUCH SHALL SUCH USE SUCH IT SUCH
18:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, MY JAPANESE FRIEND INFORMS ME THAT THING YOU SAID DOES NOT REALLY MAKE SENSe
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18:56:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, sure enough, I did fuck it up.
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18:58:16 <pikhq> そう思わせられました。 is a bit more what I was going for. XD
19:23:19 <zzo38> I really dislike the \outer command in TeX. Therefore, I do not use it.
19:23:31 <zzo38> It gets in the way of a lot of things.
19:24:59 <zzo38> Perhaps on old computers that were much slower, it might make sense to do this (and other) kind of error checking, that you can try to recover the rest of the document as much as possible so that you can proofread it. But new computer is much faster and such things as that are not very good, in my opinion, at least.
19:39:47 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: no, it would be nice
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20:01:10 <Sgeo> When was elliott last here?
20:01:40 <oerjan> a few seconds this morning
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20:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, wait, is this damn connection still hating me?
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20:23:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: exciting... i've took a few seconds... on a train, just past puistola. stopped here, the usual mode of operation is to make a living hacking on eclipse plugins, come see me in my place
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20:24:03 <oerjan> fungot: now that was sad
20:24:03 <fungot> oerjan: is there a space profiler for s48? is there anything in scheme48 that is like mine uses modified csv files to store the size
20:26:11 <fizzie> Hm, Puistola's a place in Helsinki. Wonder who said that.
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20:48:20 <Sgeo> Is Linear Algebra fun?
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21:00:06 <tswett> Is "Puistola" pronounced Pwi-sto-la or Pu-i-sto-la?
21:01:36 <Deewiant> It's a diphthong but I wouldn't call it "pwi" :-P
21:02:05 <fizzie> Wiktionary IPA's the "puisto" word as [ˈpuisto̞].
21:02:14 <tswett> fizzie: how very helpful.
21:02:38 <tswett> Is it more like Puj-sto-la, then?
21:02:48 <tswett> Which half of the diphthong is the major half?
21:03:11 <fizzie> I can give you an audio file out of this speech recognition data corpus if you want.
21:03:17 <tswett> That would be useful, yes.
21:03:27 <tswett> Hey, Puistola's a place on a Monopoly board. P
21:05:06 <fizzie> http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/puistola.wav should perhaps have it. I haven't bothered to test-listen to it at all.
21:05:18 <tswett> Is there also a Lautakävely? :P
21:05:39 <fizzie> The transcript says "sain hyvän syötön pasi puistolalta", where it's a name of a person, but it should be pronounced the same way anyway.
21:06:22 <Vorpal> how long ago was windows 7 released now again? Roughly
21:06:53 <Vorpal> unless I'm wrong there should be another windows version due soon
21:07:09 <tswett> That sounds pretty Pu-i-sto-lal-ta-ish, though you could call it Puj as well.
21:07:34 <fizzie> Windows 8's supposed to come in 2012.
21:08:11 <fizzie> (Don't think there's any official word yet though.)
21:08:13 <zzo38> Apparently the next version no longer uses a keyboard or mouse, no longer will run on a PC, and all documents *must* be stored on the internet so that they can spy on you.
21:08:51 <zzo38> I do not know whether or not any of this is true.
21:09:03 <Vorpal> it sounds extremely unlikely
21:09:09 <Vorpal> especially the bit about no keyboard
21:10:49 <fizzie> There has been some word on a "new version" that'd be tablet-oriented.
21:10:59 <fizzie> It might of course be a completely different thing than Windows 8.
21:11:13 <Vorpal> yeah aren't there tablet versions of current windows as well
21:11:36 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, all of the things I wrote might be only the tablet version.
21:11:40 <Vorpal> I mean, come on, if they dropped non-tablet, what would programmers targeting windows use. And so on.
21:12:50 <zzo38> I write programs in C so that they are not only for Windows or only for any specific computer or operating system.
21:14:01 <Vorpal> good luck. You will need it to do anything non-trivial.
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21:14:57 <zzo38> Is this why C was invented?
21:15:00 <Gregor> How pointlessly pessimistic you are, Vorpal. You can write portable C that does all sorts of shit, so long as you don't care about GUIs.
21:15:27 <fizzie> Gregor: Or listing a directory.
21:15:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, C defines functions for working on files. It does not even consider directories
21:15:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, gah you beat me to it
21:15:59 <zzo38> And most of my programs do not have GUIs, and most of them do not need to do directory listings either, or network, or threads...
21:16:09 <fizzie> Still, I'm sure you can do some pretty non-trivial data-processing tasks even in portable C.
21:16:34 <fizzie> And C1x has threads. :p
21:16:51 <Gregor> Threads are /sort of/ a problem. Networking isn't since BSD sockets are universal. Windows (and everything else) supports opendir/readdir/closedir.
21:16:51 <Sgeo> http://www.gerbil.org/tom/
21:16:53 <Vorpal> but really, pure C is only really useful as a common base to build on
21:16:55 <zzo38> I will use SDL if I want graphics and audio. SDL works on many systems.
21:16:58 <Sgeo> (Tue Aug 28 2001) A new tesla bootstrap has been released.
21:17:01 <Vorpal> you can't even do sensible OS coding in pure C
21:17:36 <zzo38> If I want programming an operating system, the parts that are specific to the computer can be programmed by machine-codes or assembly language.
21:17:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait what? Are you assuming a /hosted environment/?
21:17:43 <Gregor> By "portable C code" I mean "C code written for existing systems which are not totally retarded". And my basis is pretty lax since I let Windows in.
21:18:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, err, I'm pretty sure you do in the statement about common OS :P
21:19:03 <Gregor> Vorpal: Oh, I thought you were complaining about my opendir/readdir on Windows statement.
21:19:19 <fizzie> Well, you know, if you only assume a freestanding implementation, then you can't do any IO at all.
21:19:21 <Gregor> Of course I mean C code hosted in an OS, but when people write portable Python code nobody say "BUT IT DOESN'T RUN ON METAL HAW I'M TARDED"
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21:19:51 <zzo38> To contrast, TeX is *absolutely the same everywhere* (as long as you do not use LaTeX, pdfTeX, e-TeX, XeTeX, or any of those other things). TeX is not for writing operating systems, though. It is for writing documents to print out.
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21:20:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, I haven't been doing hosted C code programming for several weeks now. I was doing freestanding just 4 days ago
21:20:17 <Vorpal> well freestanding with extensions
21:20:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: You were not writing portable C code.
21:20:26 <Gregor> Vorpal: Nor is that an argument that portable C code does not exist.
21:20:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed. I was including <avr/interrupts.h> and so on
21:20:43 <Gregor> Vorpal: All that's an argument for is that C is powerful enough to write both portable and unportable code, so good for C.
21:21:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, true. Anyway you can't do much interesting in portable C really. Where portable C means what the C standard requires
21:21:32 <Vorpal> you *can* do quite a lot if you assume your mostly portable superset of that
21:21:40 <fizzie> That really depends on your definition of "interesting".
21:21:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, interacting with other stuff in this case.
21:22:05 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yes, that's because the C standard is a pointlessly-strict requirement.
21:22:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure you can do data processing and a simple line based text UI, but that isn't very interesting
21:22:55 <fizzie> Again, that's just your opinion.
21:23:23 <fizzie> I'd say our speech recognition system could be portable C, and it would still qualify as non-trivial.
21:23:27 <Vorpal> actually I could write portable freestanding C code, with the exception of the name and signature of the entry point... I wouldn't be able to observe the results however.
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21:28:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know why elliott left this channel?
21:29:15 <zzo38> fizzie: You can just use stdin/stdout, where the audio is on stdin and the text is on stdout. Now it is a proper speech recognition system.
21:29:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: I saw some discussion in the logs, but really I haven't been following.
21:30:15 <Vorpal> zzo38, I'm sure there should be something in between as well. :P
21:30:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-03-23.txt 18:20 or so. 's all I know.
21:30:54 <zzo38> Vorpal: Perhaps the command-line parameter to set the options. Now is it enough?
21:31:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, I didn't mean that...
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21:31:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: Then what do you mean, please?
21:32:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, I mean you need something in between stdin and stdout to make it "a proper speech recognition system" :P
21:32:41 <Sgeo> So, I'm watching The Website Is Down
21:33:02 <Sgeo> I notice that in this video, the person is playing some old FPS, and it immediately strikes me as old
21:33:12 <zzo38> What would you need? Just the program, isn't it?
21:33:15 <Sgeo> Yet just before, a different one that I saw, he was playing NetHack
21:33:21 <Sgeo> And I didn't think of it as old
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21:45:47 <Sgeo> Don?t quit smoking... LEARN TO SMOKE THE HEALTHY WAY!!!
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22:22:52 <Sgeo> I am now playing a joke NetHack simulator
22:23:08 <Sgeo> I am on the Astral Plane on an altar without the amulet
22:24:18 <Sgeo> http://www.thewebsiteisdown.com/nethack.html
22:25:09 <Sgeo> "You quaff a potion of YASD"
22:27:44 <Sgeo> "Killed by insulting the parser"
22:29:51 <Sgeo> "killed by pressing the letter 'd'
22:30:04 <Sgeo> ("You drop... dead")
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22:36:31 <Sgeo> I can't figure it out
22:40:36 <oerjan> ...why would you expect a joke nethack to be survivable...
22:41:08 <Sgeo> Because the blog post says so
22:41:29 <Sgeo> http://dpt.thewebsiteisdown.com/dpt/
22:42:45 <zzo38> Hay! It says I found the gold but it says I don't have any!
22:44:32 <Sgeo> That Seppuku message is also associated with a different death
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22:45:55 <Sgeo> Try wielding the elf, then the lichen
22:45:58 <Sgeo> Or other way around
22:47:41 <zzo38> How to remove the armor?
22:47:53 <Sgeo> I don't know if it's possible
22:50:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo, can you win the real nethack btw?
22:50:19 <Vorpal> that is, have you been able to
22:50:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you need more practise then :)
22:50:34 <Sgeo> Have a game on NAO, haven't touched it in a while
22:50:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why not play locally? Way less lag that way
22:55:08 <Sgeo> I'm going to play a bit of Crawl I think
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23:15:32 <Sgeo> ??you feel nervous for a moment
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23:23:50 <zzo38> Would you use the function if a "while" or "for" loop is allowed to have a "else" clause, which would be executed if the loop terminates without using "break"?
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23:34:41 <Sgeo> zzo38, that sounds Falcon-like
23:35:15 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you know if Falcon has such a thing? And, do you use Falcon?
23:36:01 <Sgeo> Python has for-else loops
23:36:27 <Sgeo> I don't remember if Falcon has it
23:36:38 <zzo38> Are they the same as this or different? And does it have while-else loops?
23:36:56 <Sgeo> Yes, it has while-else loops, and it's what you're describing, I think
23:37:04 <Sgeo> http://docs.python.org/tutorial/controlflow.html
23:37:50 <zzo38> Yes, section 4.4 says the same kind of thing I am describing.
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