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00:03:07 <libc\x2Eso> Well that's the scariest freenode /notice I've ever seen :P
00:03:55 <oerjan> eek. well it _is_ on freenode's own blog...
00:04:38 <oerjan> (not to mention one other obvious fact)
00:04:56 -!- TLUL has joined.
00:04:57 <libc\x2Eso> I haven't even managed to load the damned blog page yet.
00:05:10 <libc\x2Eso> It's almost assuredly an April fool's day prank.
00:05:26 <libc\x2Eso> I don't want a network to love me that much :P
00:05:32 <oerjan> well since everyone else got it at the same time...
00:06:11 <libc\x2Eso> Is it the blog that's slow or my connection?
00:06:21 <oerjan> it didn't load for me either
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00:06:53 <oerjan> as i said, everyone on freenode obviously got the notice near simultaneously
00:07:09 <oerjan> (it's currently 0:06 UTC)
00:08:51 * oerjan officially declares antialiasing to be evil http://www.darthsanddroids.net/heists/0050.html
00:11:18 <oerjan> also, that is probably one of the most meta comics, ever
00:13:01 <oerjan> hm they've forgotten the favicon this time
00:15:19 * Sgeo huggles nyud.net
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00:17:28 <oerjan> why the heck does neither nyud.net nor www.nyud.net work
00:18:09 <libc\x2Eso> oerjan: Because you don't support the libc.so fund :P
00:18:27 <Sgeo> http://blog.freenode.net.nyud.net/2011/04/important-service-announcement-regarding-defocus/ worked for me
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00:19:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes but that's rather useless for someone who wants to visit the nyud.net homepage to find out exactly what their redirection syntax _was_ again
00:19:39 <oerjan> you bastard nerds and your photographic command syntax memory
00:20:22 <oerjan> well that wasn't precisely fast either...
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01:40:47 <variable> "(-------------------------" is
01:41:04 <variable> libc\x2Eso: not this network. I have seen this before
01:41:15 <libc\x2Eso> Yeah, it could certainly be valid elsewhere.
01:41:41 <variable> libc\x2Eso: nearly as bad: "TheLongestNamePossibleOnThisServer"
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06:43:33 <oerjan> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/motion.html
06:45:47 <fizzie> Oh, it's that day again.
06:47:04 <oerjan> i see reddit's r/circlejerk took some inspiration from r/trees
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07:07:44 <fizzie> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
07:15:02 <quintopia> is there a name for the type of symmetry "the distance from a fixed center point to the boundary of the shape is the same in both direction x and -x for all choices of vector x"?
07:23:11 <oerjan> no, radial is stronger
07:23:34 <oerjan> it's 180 degree rotational symmetry, don't recall if it has a shorter name
07:24:30 <lament> how is radial stronger?
07:25:05 <oerjan> radial is rotation by any angle, or at least a smaller one...
07:25:30 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_%28physical_attractiveness%29
07:25:42 <lament> right and the angle depends on the type of symmetry
07:26:40 <oerjan> 2-fold rotational symmetry, says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_symmetry
07:27:55 <lament> i think radial symmetry just isn't a mathematical term
07:28:19 <fizzie> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_symmetry lists 5-fold rotational symmetry as a type of radial symmetry.
07:28:27 <oerjan> yeah it seemed to be more biological
07:29:19 <fizzie> I did sort of assume that "radial symmetry" would mean "depends only on distance", purely based on the name, but I guess it's not a real thing.
07:30:58 <lament> it's certainly a real thing
07:31:11 <oerjan> that's circular or spherical
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07:41:30 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers
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07:54:38 <olsner> wild guess: because it's wrong?
07:55:50 <oerjan> a very plausible guess. but incorrect.
08:00:05 <olsner> right, the poster just failed to encode it in the format expected by the compilers
08:00:48 <oerjan> ...i think elliott must be right about those swedes.
08:03:20 <olsner> I liked the second answer, though it was slightly botched by trying to talk about "text files"
08:23:09 <fizzie> ISO/IEC 14882:1998(E), 2.1p1 subclause 1: "Physical source file characters are mapped, in an implementation-defined manner, to the basic source character set --"; if he's read the standard twice in its entirety already, I would expect him to have noticed this part and realize you can't really expect to be able to write a program based on the standard alone, without considering the implementation.
08:27:34 <olsner> boring, haven't seen any likely april fool hoaxes yet
08:33:30 <fizzie> Our staff@ mailing list got this: "Please find the Springer marketing campaign below. It seems you can get a 30% Springer author discount from registration fees at selected conferences with LNCS proceedings, but more importantly, you may get a conference review waiver coupon, which enables you to bypass the peer review process in some selected conferences and get an article published directly. This is a nice offer especially for students. See details below."
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08:45:31 <fizzie> coppro: Context: april fool hoaxes.
08:55:54 <oklopol> '<cpressey> oh, "dleep" was a typo for "sleep"' not a typo
08:56:20 <oklopol> although i'm not sure that's relevant
09:01:02 <oklopol> "This is a nice offer especially for students." :D
09:01:26 <oklopol> thank god i didn't go to work today, i had no idea it's april already
09:13:31 <coppro> the math society at UW just adopted a new set of bylaws yesterday. I sent an email out to the mailing list at about 1:30 saying that the version I'd published earlier was wrong and due to some procedural technicalities, we had to adopt this alternate version. it's a work of comedy
09:34:14 <Ilari> DNSSEC going nowhere again: .com is now DNSSEC-signed. :-)
09:35:47 <Deewiant> Anybody got the freenode prize yet?
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10:31:39 <fizzie> Ilari: Do you happen to know how much breaks if you turn DNSSEC validation on? (I mean in the usual way where "insecure" zones are allowed, but if a zone has a DS in the parent then it will need to be properly working all the way down.)
10:34:32 <Ilari> Well, I don't hit that a wide variety of sites, but it seems that very little breaks.
10:35:23 <fizzie> Mhm. Well, I guess that might be either because everyone's doing DNSSEC right, or because no-one's doing DNSSEC at all.
10:36:36 <Ilari> Well, not many are doing DNSSEC, but virtually all that are are doing it right.
10:44:18 <Ilari> 65 TLDs have TAs in the root zone (zone serial appears to be 2011040100).
11:01:51 <fizzie> .fi root has been DNSSEC-signed since late 2010, but if I understood correctly it should now be possible to do DS "delegations" to actual zones too. (At least this newspost says after "31.3.")
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11:39:38 <ais523> hmm, I'm not entirely convinced it's even possible to do an April Fool's joke on Esolang
11:39:43 <ais523> it wouldn't look any different from the rest of the site
11:40:20 <elliott> 07:54:38: <olsner> wild guess: because it's wrong?
11:40:20 <elliott> 07:55:50: <oerjan> a very plausible guess. but incorrect.
11:40:20 <elliott> 08:00:05: <olsner> right, the poster just failed to encode it in the format expected by the compilers
11:40:20 <elliott> 08:00:48: <oerjan> ...i think elliott must be right about those swedes.
11:40:25 <elliott> oerjan: i concur in this case!
11:40:40 <ais523> what is elliott's idea about swedes?
11:40:50 <elliott> that they're all weird and crazy and should be avoided
11:41:04 <elliott> ais523: turn esolang into a site about tongues in which magick spelles are cast'e
11:41:19 <elliott> that's all i can think of :)
11:41:29 <oerjan> elliott: i take it you are also r/trees inspired?
11:41:30 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Velato/; 05:01 . . (+169) . . 195.211.160.6 (Talk) (Unusually not mephitic forum!!!! Epilogue to bookmarks. To a countless extent wares resource. Greatly much admins)
11:42:13 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:42:19 <oerjan> elliott: well i was referring to your AF suggestion for here
11:42:32 <elliott> oerjan: yes, that's where i saw you mentioning the /r/circlejerk//r/trees thing
11:42:40 <elliott> (yes, that's a slash separating two /r/ paths, problem?)
11:43:52 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/QlGpd.gif <-- this wins forever
11:43:59 <elliott> (on the stackoverflow question)
11:45:41 <elliott> as an expert in abusing ms paint for computational purposes >:D
11:46:30 <oerjan> what is that making? a piet program or something?
11:46:43 <elliott> oerjan: (or refresh if it gets cut off)
11:46:56 <oerjan> it's so damn slow on my computer
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11:47:06 <elliott> oerjan: download it then watch
11:48:15 <ais523> elliott: I take it that wasn't you doing that, given that you'd be unlikely to be using Windows Vista or 7
11:48:21 <ais523> (although that's not completely implausible0
11:48:21 <elliott> happy mailman mailing list reminder's day yesterday!
11:48:31 <elliott> ais523: indeed, it's from the stack overflow question that you may or may not have seen
11:48:46 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers
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11:49:23 * elliott tries to think of a sufficiently funny question to join #r.trees and say
11:49:25 <ais523> elliott: did it have a BOM?
11:49:28 <ais523> I'm guessing from the URL
11:49:39 <ais523> oh, it's an image of a program
11:49:48 <elliott> it's a hand-crafted drawing!
11:50:08 <elliott> so the typography isn't as good as in the standard document, but C++ compilers can hardly expect such anal calligraphy!
11:50:17 <elliott> (This marks the first time the phrase "anal calligraphy" has ever been uttered.)
11:51:24 <elliott> ais523: so did esr insist on making the new C-INTERCAL release himself? :P
11:52:36 <ais523> I'll do it myself, a little later
11:52:46 <elliott> "Last time I chose to program in Python, because I love the language. But I used some Windows-specific libraries and some people were frustrated they could not see the program run on their machine. So this time I'm going to use Java. It's arguably less expressive than Python, but I know that the GUI and window interface is quite portable"
11:53:10 <elliott> (admittedly java.awt.Robot probably doesn't have a portable Python analogue)
11:55:40 <oerjan> <elliott> (This marks the first time the phrase "anal calligraphy" has ever been uttered.) <-- about 103 hits, says google
11:55:58 <elliott> oerjan, googling "anal calligraphy" since 2011
11:56:21 <elliott> "Buy a handmade custom "Anal" calligraphy wall scroll here!"
11:56:39 <oerjan> i don't _think_ i've done it before.
11:57:00 <oerjan> that phrase has at least two possible meanings, i note
11:57:40 <elliott> i don't have a reddit spore, i feel so inferior
11:58:08 <elliott> i don't get to type annoyingly :(
11:58:13 <oerjan> poor elliott, all jealous of I_RAPE_CATS
11:58:44 * elliott waits for someone who has never been on reddit to read this log
11:59:18 <oerjan> this surely was not the best time for him to have to defend his actions...
11:59:39 <elliott> have you seen his userpage?
11:59:42 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/user/I_RAPE_CATS
12:01:12 <elliott> "THERE IS A PRIZE. IT’S WORTH IT. HINT: MOTD."
12:01:22 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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12:01:35 <elliott> "VmlldyBwYWdlIHNvdXJjZSwgeW91bmcgZ3Jhc3Nob3BwZXIu"
12:01:40 <oerjan> is the april fool that there actually _is_ a prize?
12:02:14 <Deewiant> I couldn't tell what the next stage was about though, so I left it at that
12:03:04 <elliott> why am i helping you fuckers, i want @unicorn/ or whatever
12:03:28 <elliott> the blog post won't load now :)
12:03:43 <oerjan> how does I_RAPE_CATS manage to get _less_ mold? he had 53 before and someone claimed to have seen 54
12:03:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Sure (assuming it's the new one), thanks
12:04:10 <elliott> oerjan: or maybe you can spend KARMA to get rid of them :-D
12:04:15 <Deewiant> elliott: http://sprunge.us/HMGb
12:04:33 <oerjan> i was assuming they last for today...
12:04:38 <elliott> Looks like a trivial cipher
12:04:51 <elliott> OTOH this is close to my laziness limit
12:05:09 <elliott> I'll ask what the prize cloak is in #freenode :-D
12:08:00 <elliott> <qwebirc44173> they are throttling blog on purpose
12:08:00 <elliott> <qwebirc44173> to get attention
12:08:09 <elliott> wish this guy would shut up so my important question would get answered
12:11:09 <elliott> <keyUp> and all of us say something
12:11:10 <elliott> <keyUp> for aprill fools joke
12:11:10 <elliott> <keyUp> but we act serious
12:11:10 <elliott> <keyUp> but something bad hmm
12:11:10 <elliott> <Boydy> yeh good to see this is a great help channel
12:11:10 <elliott> <keyUp> i will say something and you ay yes i have heard
12:11:16 <elliott> <keyUp> what im doing here with kids omg
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12:21:24 <elliott> "Fanny scratching in 18th-century London's Cock Lane was so notorious that interested bystanders often blocked the street. It became the focus of a religious controversy between Methodists and orthodox Anglicans, and was reported on by celebrities of the period such as Samuel Johnson."
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12:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> 21:52:00: <Gregor> I'm continuing to bother #esoteric because ZERO people from this channel have helped me out here :P
12:23:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it's plausible APT Guy actually would have paid for an address.
12:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> 16:56:27 <libc\x2Eso> Well that's the scariest freenode /notice I've ever seen :P
12:26:20 <elliott> So the BritClique so thoroughly dominates WP now that all the April Fool's humor on the front page are nothing but references to UK culture? I'm guessing the argument is "Well this is the english language wikipedia, I'm sure the german language WP has German references, etc. etc..." Sorry to inform you, but other people speak english too. As if it wasn't obvious. Jersey John (talk) 06:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
12:26:45 <elliott> "On another note, I'm quickly growing tired of the undue snarkiness and senseless arrogance of the Brit Clique, as I call them, here on Wiki... It's no wonder a bunch morons a few years back went and made Conservapedia. Not that I like that place either. Plus I'm banned from it... lol..." --[[User:Jros83]]
12:27:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I can't find that notice in the raw log for today or yesterday...
12:27:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try hardesr.
12:27:49 <elliott> oerjan: what kind of horrific person gave wil wheaton 19 molds. WAS IT YOU?
12:28:01 <ais523> that's better than the toilet paper thing
12:28:10 <oerjan> elliott: i don't have a reddit account
12:28:27 <elliott> oerjan: well that's what you _would_ say isn't it.
12:28:40 <ais523> elliott: remember when the page about toilet paper orientation was discussed in #esoteric
12:28:46 <ais523> I said it might make a good april fool's FA
12:29:11 <elliott> ais523: wait, i've figured out a good esolang AF
12:29:13 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Velato/; 05:01 . . (+169) . . 195.211.160.6 (Talk) (Unusually not mephitic forum!!!! Epilogue to bookmarks. To a countless extent wares resource. Greatly much admins)
12:29:25 <ais523> that's not a good AF at all
12:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, did I_RAPE_CATS actually manipulate that stupid video thing?
12:30:21 * elliott moves [[Fugue Compiler]]. As an April FOol's or something
12:30:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well at a minimum it appears he didn't choose it randomly as he was supposed to
12:30:43 <libc\x2Eso> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
12:30:58 <libc\x2Eso> It's not over, but it's lookin' that way.
12:31:16 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: Put more money into it
12:31:25 <libc\x2Eso> elliott: I will, 24 hours before the end.
12:31:38 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE _EXPECTING_ YOU TO DO
12:31:53 <elliott> It's only been on for a couple of days :P
12:32:24 <ais523> also, I insist on parsing your nick as libc \x2 Eso
12:33:09 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=helvetica
12:33:32 <elliott> NOT FUNNY IN THE SLIGHTEST
12:35:25 <ais523> what's going on if you google "Helvetica"?
12:35:55 <elliott> ais523: open in your unrestricted browser
12:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I nearly made an accidental April fool today.
12:37:37 <libc\x2Eso> <ais523> that's ridiculous // OK, seriously, are you the poorest man alive? X-D
12:37:54 <oerjan> ah comic sans gives the same
12:38:03 <ais523> libc\x2Eso: 500 is a very big number
12:38:06 <ais523> it's hard to even visualise
12:38:19 <elliott> 500 is trivial to visualise :P
12:38:34 <ais523> £500 would be overpriced for a new computer nowadays
12:38:40 <ais523> although with dollars it's more reasonable
12:38:43 <elliott> And libc\x2Eso is a privileged douchebag for thinking balking at spending half a thousand dollars on a domain name makes you the poorest man alive :P
12:39:11 <libc\x2Eso> It's 2/3rds of a plane ticket, somewhat less than one month's rent, considerably less than the sum of one month's bills.
12:39:41 <ais523> well, I consider plane travel so expensive that people who require it are insnae
12:39:50 <ais523> and people who reimburse plane travel costs more so
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12:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god Gregor's being an idiot about money again isn't he.
12:42:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, come to think of it, what *did* you do with that money you got from the bit of Wolfram's ego you heroically chipped off.
12:42:32 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: bought a laptop, and put the rest in the bank
12:42:32 * elliott tries to find a source download of the bitcoin client
12:42:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://p.zem.fi/d98k
12:42:58 <ais523> and lived off it for a few years
12:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, a laptop would barely *dent* the prize money you got.
12:43:47 <ais523> 400 out of 12000 is about 1/30
12:43:49 <ais523> that's more than just a dent
12:45:14 <libc\x2Eso> "My lovely horse, you're a pony no more" // Pony: Not a name for horse babies :P
12:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> libc\x2Eso, you've presumably never seen Father Ted, being an American and all.
12:46:13 <oerjan> libc\x2Eso: i cry foal!
12:46:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: 30 dents don't normally completely destroy something
12:47:29 <libc\x2Eso> Phantom_Hoover: I'm a grad student. In the summers I usually intern here and there.
12:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You're a grad student, I thought they had, like, negative money.
12:47:54 <libc\x2Eso> I'm a grad student with fiscal responsibility, I have plenty of money. And yes, occasionally buying something nice for myself still factors into fiscal responsibility.
12:48:25 <libc\x2Eso> Since I don't own a Wii, a PS3 and an Xbox 360 (or any of them for that matter), the price some grad students pay to own all three easily covers libc.so right there :P
12:48:30 <elliott> Yes. Fiscal responsibility makes you rich. Nothing else.
12:48:42 * Phantom_Hoover recalls that Tom Scott is a student of some description and quite a bit younger than Gregor, and he had £500 to blow on something even stupider.
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12:49:16 <libc\x2Eso> elliott: I'm not rich, but fiscal responsibility keeps you well in the black when feasible.
12:49:25 <elliott> I didn't say you were rich.
12:49:38 <elliott> But purely being fiscally responsible is not nearly enough to be able to throw $500 for a novelty domain.
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12:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, in fairness, you are not really the one who I would trust to have the clearest grip on finance.
12:50:50 <libc\x2Eso> Fine, then I just fall into money. It rains from the sky because the Money Gods love me.
12:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> s/Money Gods/parents/ and you have a plausible hypothesis...
12:52:38 <libc\x2Eso> And if it was there money, I sure as hell wouldn't be using it for libc.so :P
12:54:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: And regarding the previous, also http://p.zem.fi/xcxp
12:55:16 <elliott> Wow, I've gone at least two years without hearing yet another tedious Weebl & Bob reference.
12:55:22 <elliott> Thank you, fizzie, you broke my streka.
13:02:09 <Vorpal> <oerjan> libc\x2Eso: i cry foal! <-- sadly I was away when you said this, however had I been there, a pun about the current day would have been in order (hamming distance of 1 after all...)
13:02:57 <Vorpal> libc\x2Eso, so did you get the domain? Or is it still up for auction?
13:03:45 <libc\x2Eso> Vorpal: How do you manage to consistently be weeks out of date :P
13:04:27 <libc\x2Eso> Vorpal: It's been up for auction for weeks, the auction started on Sunday. Now it's at $575 and a chat room full of people who've never actually had a job or lived away from home are telling me it's not worth it.
13:05:56 <ais523> libc\x2Eso: because it isn't worth it
13:06:39 <elliott> i never said it wasn't worth it, what i said was something else entirely
13:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> libc\x2Eso, yes, ais has never lived away from home or had a job.
13:06:52 -!- libc\x2Eso has changed nick to Gregor.
13:07:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I have a job at the moment
13:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yes, that was sarcasm to show how stupid Gregor's statement was.
13:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28-1%29^%281%2F3%29
13:09:57 * elliott tries to figure out where bitcoin fits in the gnome hierarchy
13:10:06 <elliott> I guess wherever other financial programs go, but I don't know where that is
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13:43:27 <elliott> ais523: do you want a nice mold?
13:43:42 <Gregor> So, what awesomeness can I do with libdl.so? :(
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14:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, so you lost the auction, or you're going to lose it?
14:04:11 <Gregor> The auction hasn't ended and I'm not up to my max, but I project an extremely low chance of winning.
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14:26:20 <ais523> esr is definitely male, right?
14:26:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, my Facebook account seems to be haemorrhaging its backlog of unaccepted friend requests.
14:26:37 <ais523> seems I'm /that/ crazy about pronouns
14:28:55 <Gregor> ais523: Yeesh, Phantom_Hoover is SO pastiche.
14:29:04 <Gregor> Probably because he's locked in his matrix of solidity.
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14:53:12 <ais523> elliott_: too late, I already referred to her with a male pronoun!
14:53:40 <elliott_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
14:53:41 <Gregor> Eric, short for Erica.
14:53:47 <elliott_> also, nobody can look at the recent changes any more
14:53:53 <elliott_> also, comments on a postcard^W/msg only
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15:21:29 <Vorpal> hm I wonder if the urban dictionary redesign to look similar to wikipedia is special for today...
15:21:44 <Vorpal> I have no idea if it been this for long
15:24:13 <Vorpal> the xkcd 3D trick with javascript looks quite cool
15:24:31 <Ilari> Looks like APNIC is nicely down today. Waiting for the graph to update... :-)
15:26:12 <Ilari> Anyway: 128k+64k to Japan, 4M(!!!) to China, 8k+4k to South Korea.
15:28:17 <Ilari> Preliminary calculation gives down 0.27.
15:30:42 <Ilari> Heh. 25% of the address space gone in a single day.
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15:32:32 <ais523> elliott: I just converted a video to a sequence of PNG files representing individual frames, tar/gzipped it (deduplicating repeated frames), uuencoded, and posted it on sprunge
15:32:35 <ais523> is there something wrong with me?
15:33:12 <Ilari> The preliminary figures would mean down 0.83(!) in a single week.
15:33:25 <ais523> let's /hope/ it's April Fool's
15:33:59 <Ilari> Well, this extended delegated file is dated 2nd April...
15:34:11 <ais523> I suppose it is April 2 somewhere
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15:39:00 <Vorpal> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5984 is quite awesome (rfc from today)
15:46:04 <Ilari> Lol, APNIC page has pie graph updated (0.78 left indeed) but bar graph hasn't.
15:52:10 <Ilari> Now the bar graph also updated. Indeed, down 0.27.
15:54:59 <Ilari> Logaritmic space available: /8.353
15:55:57 <Ilari> http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information ... That shows 1.78, but that doesn't take the final 1.00 into account.
15:56:35 <Vorpal> Ilari, so what is the prediction date now?
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15:58:49 <Ilari> I predict Tuesday 12th April.
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16:01:45 <Ilari> Heh, this model would estimate about 768 addresses left on Monday 11th. Of course, this process is discrete to the max.
16:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> [[There's also a couple of other reasons a perfect AI doesn't exist, not least the NP-completeness of the problem.]]
16:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not well-versed in complexity theory, but that sounds stupidly wrong.
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16:06:34 <pumpkin> can we verify that "perfect AI" is correct in polynomial time?
16:07:31 <ais523> NP-completeness might imply that a perfect AI would take impractically long to run
16:08:02 <Gregor> I imply that "exist" here doesn't refer to theoretical existence, but actual existence.
16:08:16 <ais523> really? the whole point of the NP-completeness proof in Minesweeper is that it's NP-complete for finding if a solution exists
16:08:30 <ais523> which implies that you can't find a solution, in general, in polynomial time, as that would imply that a solution did exist
16:08:57 <Gregor> Right, but you still /can/, it'll just take forever, making it not worth the effort.
16:09:20 <ais523> Gregor: oh, I read the line as meaning that nobody had written a perfect AI
16:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, noöne *has*, but that's nothing to do with NP-completeness, and more to do with Minesweeper being random.
16:11:51 <ais523> I disagree with the nothing there
16:12:08 <ais523> it's unlikely that a NetHack program will become a restricted-tape Turing machine by chance
16:12:20 <ais523> but it's possible, and if it fails on that, it isn't perfect
16:13:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, but exponential means unlikely to run in a reasonable time
16:13:15 <ais523> so there'd be no way to test it
16:14:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: even if it allows the /existence/, if it makes it impractical, it explains why it hasn't been written
16:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, the article said it was *impossible* because of that.
16:15:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it says "doesn't exist", that's different from "cannot exist"
16:15:30 <ais523> X is impractical explaining that X doesn't exist is an entirely valid argument
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17:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.johnmwillis.com/other/top-10-worst-captchas/
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17:23:07 <Sgeo> Why is the calculus question using partial derivatives? Does that make any difference in the answer/
17:24:28 <Sgeo> Um... did I just reveal that I understand math a little better than some commentor?
17:25:03 <Sgeo> Well, I guess what e's saying makes sense if you haven't seen the notation before
17:25:11 <ais523> Sgeo: with one variable, it doesn't matter whether you use partial or normal derivatives
17:25:22 <ais523> and in some fields, like engineering, they typically use partials for whatever reason in that case
17:26:01 <ais523> hmm, has anyone here tried to run GNU Hurd yet?
17:26:09 <ais523> I'm not sure if I believe the release announcement
17:27:46 <Sgeo> ais523, with 2 variables, does .. it just become incorrect to use normal derivative notation?
17:27:58 <ais523> IIRC it means something else
17:28:01 <ais523> but I can't remember the details
17:29:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, WP has the answers as usual, although I've forgotten them since I looked them up.
17:29:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, the multivariable calculus I'm doing with the OCW thing will be more than Partial Derivatives, right?
17:29:51 <quintopia> i certainly never took higher level diffeq and i'm fine!
17:30:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never bothered to look into multivariable calculus.
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17:43:22 <zzo38> It is March 32 today, isn't it?
17:43:42 <ais523> or sep 6422, if you prefer to count that way
17:46:16 <zzo38> They say it is April 1 today, but actually it is March 32. April 1 has been cancelled.
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17:50:26 <quintopia> fortunately, we have the thinkgeek3d sweepstakes (completely real!) to make up for it
17:51:00 <zzo38> MOTD now has ASCII art. It also has the message "VmlldyBwYWdlIHNvdXJjZSwgeW91bmcgZ3Jhc3Nob3BwZXIu"
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17:54:15 <zzo38> I don't know what to do with it, once it is decoded
17:55:14 <ais523> zzo38: join #defocus and say !join, and there's a CAPTCHAbot that gives some sort of quiz
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17:55:58 <Sgeo> ais523, I thought it was just a mafia game
18:00:40 <zzo38> JIIbH01UGxIvZ1cAGGOjp1xjLmExI0y6H1uJJx0lBGWnFTf1IyMjI2SVIzuJZQIiJGVkHzEJo3yvERR9
18:08:58 <fizzie> The MOTD message is referring to the blog page's source code.
18:09:20 <fizzie> The one at http://blog.freenode.net/2011/04/important-service-announcement-regarding-defocus/
18:09:47 <fizzie> And I pasted the decoded versions of two of the three things that are in that page's source.
18:10:53 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/xcxp and http://p.zem.fi/d98k -- feel free to go on and solve the Cat Enigma.
18:11:26 <fizzie> I would sort-of guess that they'd have gotten the ten solutions already. (Though come to think of it I haven't seen any more global notices.)
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18:16:29 <Ilari> APNIC burned through 2.678 during last 30 days???
18:24:12 <Ilari> To paraphrase popular phrase: Allocate baby allocate. :-)
18:30:35 <zzo38> I want to add feature to TeXnicard so that it can work without external programs (but keeping the way using external program, too), by adding some commands for image manipulation and for typesetting using some algorithms of TeX. However I do not want to include any external libraries other than the one I can include with source-codes and compiling together with TeXnicard, and without floating point.
18:31:24 <zzo38> Is there a way to tell git that a file has been renamed?
18:34:15 <elliott> hmm, apparently I need a newer yasm
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18:41:06 <elliott> ais523: What does it mean if a GPU computation program has an option to "use vectors"?
18:43:37 <ais523> elliott: my guess is it means vectorised operations, like the SIMD instructions in recent x86-compatible processors
18:43:46 <ais523> but that would be CPU not GPU
18:44:02 <elliott> I think OpenCL can do both, but this is explicitly a GPU program
18:44:03 <ais523> in that case it's a weird name for something else I've never heard of
18:44:25 <elliott> apparently it's ideal on some AMD cards at least
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18:45:01 <ais523> I suppose it could be a reference to memory coalescing
18:45:25 <ais523> (the way that you can request a block of memory and it's as fast as requesting a single byte, because it's typelineable
18:45:30 <elliott> nonce = base + get_global_id(0) + (uint2)(0, 0x80000000U);
18:45:30 <elliott> nonce = base + get_global_id(0);
18:45:45 <ais523> it's forcing the two units next to each other in memory
18:45:53 <elliott> so is that almost universally a good thing, or does it depend on the card?
18:45:56 <ais523> so that they can be coalesced
18:46:26 <ais523> if you're going to be using two ints anyway, together, it makes sense to vectorise them
18:46:30 <ais523> if they're used separately a lot, it doesn't
18:46:55 <ais523> and all cards react much the same way on that
18:47:16 <elliott> the code is too insane for me to naalyze like that
18:47:21 <elliott> B = B + (rotr(G, 6) ^ rotr(G, 11) ^ rotr(G, 25)) + (A ^ (G & (H ^ A))) + K[54] + W6; F = F + B; B = B + (rotr(C, 2) ^ rotr(C, 13) ^ rotr(C, 22)) + ((C & D) | (E & (C | D)));
18:47:21 <elliott> W7 = W7 + (rotr(W8, 7) ^ rotr(W8, 18) ^ (W8 >> 3U)) + W0 + (rotr(W5, 17) ^ rotr(W5, 19) ^ (W5 >> 10U));
18:47:22 <elliott> A = A + (rotr(F, 6) ^ rotr(F, 11) ^ rotr(F, 25)) + (H ^ (F & (G ^ H))) + K[55] + W7; E = E + A; A = A + (rotr(B, 2) ^ rotr(B, 13) ^ rotr(B, 22)) + ((B & C) | (D & (B | C)));
18:47:22 <elliott> W8 = W8 + (rotr(W9, 7) ^ rotr(W9, 18) ^ (W9 >> 3U)) + W1 + (rotr(W6, 17) ^ rotr(W6, 19) ^ (W6 >> 10U));
18:47:24 <elliott> H = H + (rotr(E, 6) ^ rotr(E, 11) ^ rotr(E, 25)) + (G ^ (E & (F ^ G))) + K[56] + W8; D = D + H; H = H + (rotr(A, 2) ^ rotr(A, 13) ^ rotr(A, 22)) + ((A & B) | (C & (A | B)));
18:47:58 <elliott> wow @ the resulting assembly file
18:50:59 <elliott> ais523: You sound terrified :-P
18:51:12 <ais523> I didn't realise I sounded anything
18:51:18 <ais523> also, that sort of thing looks almost normal
18:51:22 <ais523> I take it those are thread-local variables?
18:51:37 <elliott> function local, the function is __kernel
18:51:44 <elliott> __kernel void search( const uint state0, const uint state1, const uint state2, const uint state3,
18:51:44 <elliott> const uint state4, const uint state5, const uint state6, const uint state7,
18:51:44 <elliott> const uint B1, const uint C1, const uint D1,
18:51:44 <elliott> const uint F1, const uint G1, const uint H1,
18:51:44 <elliott> const uint targetG, const uint targetH,
18:51:47 <elliott> const uint fW0, const uint fW1, const uint fW2, const uint fW3, const uint fW15, const uint fW01r, const uint fcty_e, const uint fcty_e2,
18:52:01 <ais523> they'd have some sort of indicator if they weren't
18:52:26 <elliott> there's about a hundred lines like the above in a row, though :)
18:52:29 <elliott> i feel like macros could help.
18:53:18 <elliott> ais523: again, i feel like macros could help :-P
18:53:29 <ais523> I think CUDA actually has C++-style templates, despite being mostly based on C, precisely to shorten that sort of thing
18:53:41 <elliott> all this advanced technology and it's being defeated by an http timeout...
18:56:31 <elliott> def if_else(condition, trueVal, falseVal):
18:56:42 <elliott> I feel good about this code already.
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19:03:56 <elliott> ais523: wow, GPUs are pretty good
19:04:09 <elliott> approximately 10x as good as CPUs, even :-P
19:04:11 <ais523> they're much better than CPUs, just hard to write for
19:04:25 <elliott> yeah. and they slow down your desktop when you use them! sheesh
19:04:30 <ais523> for things that are maximally optimal for GPUs compared to CPUs, it's more like 100x
19:04:45 <elliott> this is what essentially amounts to hash-cracking on the small, I think
19:05:01 <elliott> actually it's not quite 10x as good as my cpu, more like 5x, because i have two cores
19:05:27 <elliott> grr, maybe compiz will get less lag than metacity
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19:09:14 <elliott> Compiz doesn't like being turned on when the GPU is being thrashed
19:09:31 <ais523> it's very easy to crash a GPU by mistake
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19:09:42 <ais523> as they don't have all the OSy stuff that CPUs have nowadays
19:09:51 <elliott> that will ruin their throughput? :-D
19:09:53 <ais523> and a crashed GPU mostly forces you to reboot the computer if you want the screen to work
19:10:02 <elliott> also, it worked, just, i could only see my mouse
19:10:03 <ais523> elliott: nah, I just don't think people have got round to doing it yet
19:10:06 <elliott> (it changed cursor when moving over texty parts)
19:10:09 <elliott> but just that and the background, no windows
19:10:12 <ais523> ah, then it was just being overloaded
19:10:52 <elliott> grr, my gpu is a bit of a weakling
19:11:07 <elliott> despite being basically the best *integrated* laptop gpu out there :)
19:11:16 <elliott> i have a choice of this performing well, or a smooth desktop
19:12:43 <elliott> hmm, seems to be getting marginally better
19:12:53 <elliott> except that one of my query windows just went blank
19:13:04 <elliott> ais523: do gpus have any sort of "hey, i have no memory left" protection? :D
19:13:10 <ais523> elliott: no, they just crash
19:13:20 <elliott> oh, wait, it didn't actually clear
19:13:24 <ais523> if you're lucky, the supervisor process on the CPU will notice and be able to put things back in order
19:13:28 <elliott> I must have hit Ctrl+L by mistake
19:14:24 <ais523> at least, the supervisor process normally notices if it's running at the time, although it may not be able to put things back to normal depending on how badly crashed the GPU is
19:17:00 * elliott tries 1/90 single kernel execution seconds
19:17:15 <elliott> okay my desktop is basically usable now
19:17:19 <elliott> yet more reason to use ratpoison!
19:17:36 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
19:18:19 <elliott> it's worth it, put all your money into it
19:18:25 <elliott> buy it for ten thousand dollars
19:18:30 <Gregor> That's still below my max, but not by much.
19:18:31 <elliott> give up hookers for a year if you must
19:18:36 <Gregor> I have all but to concede defeat :(
19:18:59 <elliott> "that's still below my max" ;; surely at this point you can admit that it's an insane amount of money to be spending
19:19:15 <elliott> that's /80 years/ of normal average domain
19:19:18 <Gregor> It's mostly not my money, people who aren't douchebags have been donating :P
19:19:51 <elliott> wtf, it's estimating that switching to the gpu was a lose
19:20:07 <elliott> despite it being 5x as fast
19:20:51 <elliott> I should turn on that vectors thing... and change the worksize :)
19:21:37 <elliott> ais523: Can I have a GPU farm?
19:21:47 <elliott> hmm, "that vectors thing" is a massive pessimisation
19:21:53 <ais523> admittedly, I do have access to a GPU farm, but I'd be in trouble if I used it for /that/
19:22:02 <ais523> elliott: it looks like it's changing the algo
19:22:11 <ais523> to one that's slower but sped up more by coalescing
19:22:32 <Gregor> If it was $825 of my own money, then yes, that would be a lot.
19:22:39 <Gregor> But I have friends that are actually friends.
19:22:42 <Gregor> Unlike you bastards :P
19:23:04 <elliott> ais523: /that/?! YOU MEAN HELPING YOUR FRIEND? ;______________________________________________________________________________________________________;
19:23:33 <ais523> Gregor: so it's $825 of your friends' money?
19:23:55 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wawawareya.
19:24:13 <Gregor> ais523: WTF is wrong with you, seriously. You have so little money sense it's almost offensive.
19:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor has 15 friends who would give him $20 for a novelty email address?
19:24:35 <elliott> money sense, n. spending $825 of your friends' money on a novelty domain name
19:24:56 <Gregor> elliott: They gave small donations and I'm giving them a vanity email address in return, it's friendly and they're trying to help me out.
19:26:53 <Gregor> ALSO you don't read, it's not $825 of my friend's money, I said that's /mostly/ my friend's money. That only means it's at least $413 of theirs.
19:27:44 <Gregor> (It happens to be more, but you people are so frustratingly unhelpful and assholish that I'm not going to give a value)
19:28:19 <ais523> Gregor: is it us who's being assholish, for trying to give you good advice rather than waste money chasing domain names?
19:28:37 <elliott> Things #esoteric has said to Gregor:
19:28:44 <elliott> (2) It's a waste of money.
19:28:55 <elliott> (3) No, fiscal responsibility alone does not give you sufficient money to throw away like that.
19:29:52 <Gregor> Yes, that is unfriendly behavior towards someone who DOES have the money, and DOES NOT have the money through magic or pulling it out of his god damn ass, to want to buy something to make him happy.
19:30:39 <Gregor> And "never spend substantial amounts of money on anything that does not have intrinsic value" is a very poor piece of advice if you'd like to actually enjoy life at all.
19:31:06 <ais523> oh, I tend not to spend substantial amounts of money even on things that do have intrinsic value
19:31:17 <elliott> You've also been bugging us for donations, not just saying you're buying it
19:32:45 * Gregor spends a moment breathing :P
19:33:16 <Sgeo> It's up to $825 now?
19:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, and Gregor is now in a bitter argument with elliott and ais523.
19:34:09 <Sgeo> I think donating all the money I made in SL may not be a good idea
19:34:55 * Gregor chooses to believe Sealand.
19:34:56 <Sgeo> ais523, not much, especially considering the amount of time involved)
19:35:07 <elliott> 01/04/2011 20:34:48, fc342b63, accepted
19:35:18 <Sgeo> elliott, BitCoins?
19:35:29 <elliott> omg and another... actually I think it just found work this second :P
19:35:54 <elliott> Makes me want to go down to the coal mines.
19:35:59 <elliott> Actually I could just play Minecraft.
19:36:06 <elliott> Actually gold mines but I don't think we have gold mines in England.
19:36:32 <ais523> elliott: how much is that one coin worth?
19:36:35 <Sgeo> Any transaction fees? (Yeah, I know that currently transaction fees are minimal compared to .. what's it called? The 50)
19:36:37 <elliott> ais523: I don't have a coin yet X-D
19:36:44 <elliott> ais523: This is pooled mining.
19:36:50 <elliott> ais523: (In non-pooled mining, you get 50 coins at a time. Very slowly.)
19:37:06 <ais523> ah, you're constructing a batch of coins together and splitting them?
19:37:17 <Sgeo> elliott, oh, thought you were doing it yourself
19:37:18 <elliott> ais523: No, a bunch of people contribute to the mining of one block
19:37:29 <elliott> the rewards are distributed according to how much work they did, etc.
19:37:46 <elliott> because the combined result is essentially a supercomputer, it gets far more blocks than any one person (who would be unlikely to ever get one with only one computer)
19:37:56 <Sgeo> How often does that cluster find coins?
19:38:18 <elliott> ais523: re: worth; as far as exchange goes, 1 USD = 1.26 BTC; 1 EUR = 1.64 BTC; 1 BTC = L$220 (going to L$; too lazy to work out the reverse)
19:38:35 <elliott> (YES, SECOND LIFE'S CURRENCY IS TOTALLY ON THE SAME LEVEL AS DOLLARS X-D)
19:38:48 <elliott> Also 1 gram of gold is 48.54 BTC X-D
19:39:02 <ais523> do you have to mine a block at a time the way it works? or can you find just the one coin then stop?
19:39:33 <elliott> ais523: you have to mine a block at a time, but I believe it's an incremental process, and possibly even distributed
19:39:37 <elliott> but all the spoils go to one winner
19:39:49 <elliott> (the spoils decrease and the difficulty increases as time goes on, before all bitcoins have been distributed into the market)
19:40:36 <elliott> ais523: but with pool mining, the problems your node has to solve are much smaller
19:40:49 <elliott> it still seems to be a waste of time to use a CPU, though
19:40:53 <ais523> hm, so it isn't just hashcash-style
19:41:00 <elliott> ais523: oh, I don't know the actual protocol yet
19:41:07 <elliott> ais523: but it's something like finding a hash with no zeroes, that's involved
19:41:17 <elliott> (in some base, presumably)
19:41:39 <elliott> ais523: btw, the analogue to the sg finding-a-tip problem is that you have to go from the first block ever created to the last
19:41:44 <elliott> and I think there's like one block per transaction
19:41:54 <quintopia> what game is this for? i can't read up
19:42:00 <elliott> quintopia: it's not a game
19:42:08 <elliott> they have no clever solution to it though (I'm not even sure a clever solution is desirable), they just walk from the first block to the latest
19:42:34 <elliott> quintopia: cryptographic, decentralised currency
19:42:54 <elliott> in actual use -- you can donate to the EFF with it, buy gold with it, convert it to USD/EUR, etc.
19:43:29 <quintopia> oic, so why does it involve mining?
19:43:38 <Sgeo> quintopia, that's how it's produced
19:43:42 <elliott> quintopia: mining = solving a bunch of cryptographic problems :P
19:43:45 <Sgeo> There's no central bank
19:43:47 <elliott> leading you to a valid bitcoin
19:43:52 <elliott> 19:37:56: <Sgeo> How often does that cluster find coins?
19:44:00 <elliott> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/
19:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia is unable to comprehend any token of exchange that doesn't involve siderophilic elements.
19:44:32 <elliott> Sgeo: the system takes 2% to give to the owner for upkeep
19:45:06 <elliott> there are other pools, but this one seems decent
19:45:07 <quintopia> apparently they make you solve those problems to slow the rate at which the currency enters circulation
19:45:08 <Sgeo> The reason people get paid to mine is because they're supporting the network. Each mined block contains previous transactions
19:45:19 <elliott> apparently there are others that give a quicker payout in the short-run, but meh
19:45:32 <elliott> quintopia: it's not that they make you, it's that it's literally built in to the protocol
19:45:42 <elliott> quintopia: and there has to be _some_ problem involved, or the first person could just award themselves every bitcoin :-D
19:46:43 <quintopia> so basically you're making real money by doing nothing, the same way you would by investing real money in a hedge fund or commodities
19:46:58 <Sgeo> quintopia, not doing nothing. Providing resources to the network
19:47:04 <elliott> quintopia: It's not doing nothing, it's doing nothing of intrinsic value
19:47:09 <Sgeo> Although the actual computation is wasted
19:47:10 <elliott> quintopia: but does that really matter? you can get it in other ways far quicker
19:47:22 <elliott> by trading existing currency, offering services (apparently some people will actually pay you in bitcoins already), ...
19:47:37 <elliott> and it's only relevant for the first few years, after which there won't be any to distribute anyway
19:47:52 <Sgeo> elliott, there will still be transaction fees
19:47:55 <quintopia> Sgeo: providing resources to the network requires no effort, therefore it is doing nothing
19:48:00 <elliott> quintopia: anyway, by the same token most office jobs are doing ntohing :-P
19:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> quintopia: It's not doing nothing, it's doing nothing of intrinsic value
19:48:26 <ais523> elliott: I think the way it's working is that everyone checks the block, looking for perfect or imperfect bitcoins (ones with a few or several bits wrong)
19:48:31 <quintopia> no, i do nothing, and i don't get paid for it
19:48:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's difficult :P But I don't think many people are interested in various cryptographic results.
19:48:48 <ais523> when someone finds a perfect one, it's split between everyone in the ratio of the imperfect ones they found, which are valueless
19:49:03 <elliott> ais523: ah; that's not how the protocol itself works, though
19:49:09 <elliott> I know for a fact that only one person wins a block.
19:50:57 <ais523> also, it's utterly hilarious that the bitcoin homepage has a flattr link
19:51:10 <Sgeo> elliott, which block did your group find?
19:51:18 <elliott> ais523: they're replacing that, I think, with a development-oriented page
19:51:21 <elliott> ais523: http://www.weusecoins.com/ is the new "marketing" site
19:51:27 <elliott> with obligatory cute videos
19:51:48 <ais523> it's worrying that more or less the currency's entire value depends on how good it is at marketing
19:52:00 <elliott> ais523: only in the short-term
19:52:06 <elliott> ais523: anyway, that's true with _all_ currencies!
19:52:20 <ais523> all the ones that don't have an actual backing
19:52:28 <elliott> ais523: that makes no sense!
19:52:29 <ais523> but very few (no?) currencies are backed by something that's really valuable
19:52:32 <elliott> ais523: say pounds were backed by gold
19:52:37 <Sgeo> Oh, dur, it's on the pool's site
19:52:37 <elliott> what use is gold? not much
19:52:43 <ais523> people value it higher than its uses (which do exist)
19:52:46 <elliott> ais523: nothing has intrinsic value
19:52:49 <Sgeo> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000261ec3e461516103db3e359519e3cc6149ff5d3af63855465c66
19:52:50 <elliott> ais523: things only have value because we find them useful
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19:52:54 <elliott> guess what? fiat currencies have value
19:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if nothing has intrinsic value then what is the point of the concept?
19:53:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there is no point of the concept :)
19:53:16 <elliott> (I was using it with a meaning that I don't even know earlier)
19:53:24 <elliott> the only useful concept is human value
19:53:28 <elliott> and fiat currencies definitely have that
19:53:31 <ais523> well, you'd consider things like food to be intrinsically valuable
19:53:41 <ais523> on the basis that people require it to live
19:53:42 <elliott> they're useful because we find eating them to be a rather good thing
19:53:47 <elliott> because we find staying alive to be a good thing
19:53:50 <elliott> still nothing objective there
19:54:10 <elliott> currency is just abstraction of work; if you can work for a currency, and use the currency to buy the product of work, then that currency is valuable
19:54:31 <ais523> elliott: well, would you consider the barter system to make sense?
19:54:38 <elliott> ais523: anyway, bitcoin is better than a "normal" fiat currency system
19:54:42 <elliott> because nobody can control its value
19:55:00 <elliott> ais523: the barter system is better than no kind of currency system at all, but definitely suboptimal
19:55:06 <ais523> actually, I suspect its value would be much more liable to being manipulated than otherwise
19:55:14 <elliott> and what, bitcoins? howso?
19:55:20 <ais523> you could drive the value very high the same way you can drive the value of shares high, by buying a lot of bitcoins quickly
19:55:27 <ais523> for more than everyone else thinks they're worth
19:55:34 <ais523> if people then trust those trades, you could sell them on at a profit
19:55:39 <ais523> and cause a collapse later
19:55:44 <ais523> very risky, but it's been successfully done with other things
19:56:01 <Sgeo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
19:56:07 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't know that they have yet
19:56:27 <elliott> I think this one is still in progress
19:56:33 <ais523> also, the statement that they'll keep getting more valuable with time is very worrying; the fact that it's going up rather than down as more are created means that public perception of the value is changing rapidly
19:57:05 <elliott> ais523: they get valuable after the distribution stops
19:57:31 <Sgeo> Isn't that supposed to be many many years from now?
19:58:32 <elliott> ais523: and they get harder to get as distribution goes on
19:58:37 <elliott> because the rewards are less and the problems more difficult
19:59:10 <elliott> heh, singularity institute also accept bitcoin donations :)
19:59:47 <elliott> also, transaction fees are optional
20:00:26 <Sgeo> Not that that does much good unless someone runs a miner that doesn't require fees
20:00:57 <elliott> Sgeo: um, as in, you can send bitcoins without transactions
20:01:03 <elliott> ("Because nodes have no obligation to include transactions in the blocks they generate, Bitcoin senders may voluntarily pay a transaction fee. Doing so will speed up the transaction and provide incentive for users to run nodes, especially as the difficulty of generating bitcoins increases or the reward per block amount decreases over time. Nodes collect the transaction fees associated with all transactions included in their candidate block.")
20:02:08 <Sgeo> But nodes are free to reject transactions without a fee if they wish
20:02:17 <Sgeo> it's a free market like thingy
20:05:08 <ais523> I think the way bitcoin works is that everyone has a history of everything that's happened, and it's cryptographically hard to update
20:05:23 <ais523> and if you manage to update it, you get some free bitcoins as a reward for doing the work in question
20:05:44 <elliott> "Well, you fooled *us*! Have some bitcoins!"
20:05:54 <ais523> hmm, it's basically an attempt to construct a monad in cryptographic security
20:06:04 <elliott> YOU THINK EVERYTHING'S A MONAD
20:06:10 <ais523> no, just things that are
20:06:22 <ais523> transaction histories /aren't/, bitcoin's an attempt to make them act like one
20:06:37 <elliott> it's more turning transactions into a linked list
20:06:45 <ais523> the point is to prevent the list forking
20:06:58 <ais523> basically, people put computational power into forcing their own version of events
20:07:00 <elliott> yes, it's a linked list addressed by cryptographic hashes
20:07:18 <elliott> ais523: you could only fork if you regenerated every event after too, I think
20:07:18 <ais523> but not a doubly linked list, as that wouldn't make sense
20:07:32 <elliott> ais523: blocks have the hash of the last block in them
20:07:33 <ais523> elliott: no, you can just fork at any point by generating a block
20:07:53 <ais523> /but/, if your block chain is easier to generate than the one that most people think is the chain, nobody will pay attention to it
20:08:03 <ais523> whichever chain is the most difficult to generate is the official version of events
20:08:37 <ais523> and everyone extends that one as it's the only one other people accept, which means it keeps getting longer and longer, and harder and harder to catch
20:08:54 <elliott> ais523: Every block contains a hash of the previous block. This has the effect of creating a chain of blocks from the genesis block to the current block. Each block is guaranteed to come after the previous block chronologically because the previous block's hash would otherwise not be known. Each block is also nearly impossible to modify once it has been in the chain for a while because every block after it would also have to be regenerated. These
20:08:54 <elliott> properties are what make double-spending of bitcoins very difficult. The block chain is the main innovation of Bitcoin.
20:08:56 <ais523> "Bitcoin relies on the fact that no single entity can control most of the CPU power on the network for any significant length of time, since, if they could, they would be able to extend any branch of the tree they chose, and faster than any other branch can be extended, making it the longest branch, and then permanently controlling which transactions appear in it."
20:09:14 <ais523> elliott: well, you can pick any block you like as the "previous block" when generating them
20:11:07 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, it seems cryptographically sound.
20:11:21 <ais523> yes, I think it makes sense cryptographically
20:11:29 <ais523> assuming no hash collisions, which we can hope is the case
20:11:46 <elliott> it's SHA-256, so that's a pretty good assumption
20:13:21 <quintopia> does this bitcoin discussion have to do with the freenode prize?
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20:14:24 <elliott> I currently have 0.05 BTC due to free money being given out :-P
20:15:00 <quintopia> where can i find the latest BTC exchange rates?
20:15:24 <elliott> there is also http://bitcoincharts.com/
20:15:29 <elliott> which has fancy market stats
20:15:33 <elliott> so you can pretend to be a REAL trader
20:16:13 <elliott> uh oh, buying lots of ridiculously overpowerful hardware and then sitting at a computer screen into the night just became profitable
20:16:32 <elliott> I suspect the world population growth rate to plummet
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20:17:49 <elliott> quintopia: Is it what? Profitable?
20:18:06 <elliott> Yes; people who are doing it are pretty serious :-P
20:18:22 <ais523> elliott: why would you have to attend it?
20:18:23 <quintopia> i expect that you wouldn't be able to mine enough BTC in the short time that new blocks have so much value to recoup the cost of the hardware and electricity
20:18:58 <ais523> well, after a while, new blocks won't generate coins
20:19:04 <elliott> ais523: traders spend all day looking at screens with white on black and red and blue :-P
20:19:07 <ais523> instead, people will be paid to generate them by people doing transactions
20:19:08 <elliott> And you can do that with bitcoins!
20:19:28 <ais523> i.e. if you do a transaction, you need to bribe the people making blocks to include it
20:19:29 <elliott> quintopia: if you buy a handful of high-end GPUs
20:19:39 <ais523> otherwise the person at the other end has no way to know if it's confirmed or not
20:19:47 <ais523> and thus, whether you're double-spending or not
20:20:19 <elliott> ok, now person #2 has assumed I'm talking about a game when I mentioned bitcoins
20:20:26 <elliott> THE NAME PERHAPS REQUIRES IMPROVEMENT
20:20:31 <ais523> well, most purely digital currenices are game-related
20:20:34 <elliott> Like TotallySeriousBitCurrencyYo.
20:20:37 <elliott> ais523: I didn't mention that :P
20:20:39 <elliott> quintopia: No, that's awesome.
20:20:53 <quintopia> but we have a wealth of mining /games/
20:21:10 <elliott> quintopia: In fact I want my screensaver to be a picture of a cute little android mining at a big ol' block of bitcoins.
20:21:18 <elliott> With little coins falling out of it.
20:21:27 <ais523> it'd be much better if you could get a bunch of clients cooperating to mine games, rather than coins
20:21:34 <ais523> it'd probably be cheaper than making games by hand
20:21:49 <ais523> see, it'd produce something actually useful then, people like playing games
20:22:16 <elliott> ais523: wouldn't that involve a very expensive algorithm that generates a new game?
20:22:23 <quintopia> it would take a very long time to mine a single game though
20:22:31 <quintopia> imagine the games being written in SHAfuck
20:22:37 <ais523> elliott: of course, you think generating a good game is easy?
20:22:54 <ais523> you can determine how good the game is by how many person-hours are spent playing it
20:23:02 <elliott> ais523: somehow I'm relieved that nobody from #esoteric invented bitcoins now
20:23:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, wouldn't it be better to have a rating system?
20:23:10 <ais523> then do the rest of the setup the same way as bitcoin
20:23:17 <elliott> <ais523> you can determine how good the game is by how many person-hours are spent playing it
20:23:20 <elliott> but then QWOP would rank as a good game!
20:23:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you'd want somethign that couldn't be easily gamed
20:23:30 <elliott> ais523: YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW
20:23:34 <elliott> and it requires flash so you can't know
20:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> One of those highly-addictive but not particularly enjoyable games.
20:23:44 <elliott> also, Dot Action 2 would count as a good game, though that's only debatable, not objectively wrong
20:23:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S NOT ENJOYABLE AT ALL
20:23:57 <ais523> so why do people play it?
20:24:05 <quintopia> so, since i can't seem to find it in these lay intros, exactly what is the problem being solved in the creation of a new block, and how is its difficulty ramped up?
20:24:11 <elliott> ais523: IT CONSUMES YOUR SOUL
20:24:17 <elliott> quintopia: look at the non-lay intros :P
20:24:24 <ais523> quintopia: the problem's to find a hash of the previous transaction history that, treated as an integer, is really low
20:24:29 <quintopia> elliott: you mean the original paper?
20:24:29 <elliott> quintopia: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
20:25:39 <quintopia> ais523: and how is the difficulty parameterized?
20:25:52 <elliott> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths wow, this is big
20:26:14 <ais523> quintopia: I'm not sure about the translation to a number, but it's basically finding a hash that's, say, only 0.0001% of the maximum value it could have, rather than more like 50% like you'd expect
20:26:23 <elliott> Bitcoins are worthless because they aren't backed by anything
20:26:23 <elliott> Gold isn't backed by anything either. See myth https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoin_is_backed_by_CPU_cycles
20:26:33 <elliott> lol, i should have just told ais523 to read this :P
20:26:53 <ais523> I agree that bitcoin isn't backed by anything
20:27:15 <ais523> it could only be backed by CPU cycles if they were intrinsically capable of being exchanged for CPU cycles, and they aren't
20:27:36 <ais523> I suppose the reason I think bitcoin's a bubble is because I think gold's a bubble too
20:27:46 <ais523> and, well, most or all Real Life currency
20:27:57 <ais523> but it's hard to find a way to live without currency altogether, so I may as well use what most people use
20:28:03 <elliott> ais523: all currency is a bubble by your definition
20:28:11 <ais523> can I not believe that?
20:28:18 <elliott> maybe that's true, but it's more making the concept of "bubble" useless, rather than saying something deep about currency
20:28:45 <quintopia> ais523: and by "finding a hash" that means "choosing a way of hashing" such that the choices are numerous and the particular choice of hashes is specifiable as a small number?
20:28:47 <elliott> if something is useful indefinitely, I find calling it a bubble silly; and there's no reason bitcoin wouldn't be usable indefinitely, if people keep using it, which there seems to be no reason for them to stop doing
20:29:22 <ais523> there's doesn't seem to be much reason for them to continue doing either
20:29:51 <ais523> quintopia: you can append an arbitrary nonce to the data then hash it via a specific hash algo, the difficulty's in finding a nonce for which doing that works
20:29:58 <elliott> ais523: as much reason as any currency
20:30:14 <quintopia> the reason is because it would take a lot of people deciding not to in order to make it no longer worthwhile for anyone to
20:30:25 <elliott> i.e., it's more useful than having to milk a goat by hand to give milk to the person who you want to buy a coat off
20:30:29 <ais523> quintopia: except it can happen gradually
20:30:29 <quintopia> so continuing to do so is a dynamic equilibrium of the system
20:30:42 <ais523> if a few people decide they don't want to continue to use bitcoin any more, it makes its value go down
20:30:57 <ais523> that'll make more people decide they don't want to use it, and drive its value down further
20:30:58 <elliott> ais523: not as long as the exchanges are still used
20:31:01 <ais523> it's an unstable equilibrium
20:31:06 <quintopia> ais523: but if everyone is using it, what reason do those people have to choose not to use it?
20:31:08 <ais523> real currency has the same issue
20:31:08 <elliott> ais523: but you have to show why that would happen
20:31:16 <elliott> ALL CURRENCY INHERENTLY HAS THAT ISSUE
20:31:18 <ais523> the only reason it's tolerated is that people have to use /something/
20:31:23 <elliott> apart from currencies whose value is somehow determined by one person
20:31:29 <elliott> which can only be done by that one person selling just about every good
20:31:33 <quintopia> basically, how does a rational player determine that it is rational to stop using bitcoin?
20:31:36 <elliott> or at least forcing people to sell it at a certain price
20:31:41 <elliott> and, um, people don't like that
20:31:49 <ais523> your argument isn't working, because you're trying to convince me that bitcoin is no worse than any real currency, and I'm saying I don't care because real currencies are bad enough
20:31:51 <elliott> ais523: what I object to is your use of the word "bitcoin"
20:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I'm going to have to bring out the "if you're so clever then what would you use instead" at this juncture.
20:32:36 <quintopia> ais523: how does a rational player determine that it is rational to stop using a particular widespread currency?
20:32:47 <elliott> quintopia: people aren't rational
20:32:51 <elliott> come on, you made that far too easy
20:32:52 <elliott> ais523: FWIW, I don't like currency in the general case anyway
20:33:03 <elliott> ais523: my preferred solution is to eliminate scarcity
20:33:06 <elliott> then it's just superfluous
20:33:09 <quintopia> elliott: i'm asking a game theory question here, your objection is overruled
20:33:16 <ais523> quintopia: it's worth not using a currency, if what it takes you to obtain that currency is an unfairly large amount of however-you-value-things-in-general compared to what you can buy using it
20:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, hello, this is reality speaking. Humans are not rational. Bye.
20:33:27 <elliott> quintopia: I don't think game theory applies to people deciding to stop using a currency like bitcoin
20:33:27 <ais523> I may as well give you a stock game theory answer in that case
20:33:31 <elliott> there are far too many irrational reasons to do it
20:34:00 <quintopia> elliott: i agree that it does not apply in the real world. could you stop bringing up irrelevancies wrt my game theory question?
20:34:39 <elliott> quintopia: no, I like pinging you, it's fun
20:34:46 <ais523> elliott: the main rational reason to buy a currency that's been freshly created and that doesn't have much momentum yet, is because you think that other people will try to do the same thing as you but later
20:34:55 <ais523> I remember pulling that sort of trick in nomic occasionally
20:35:06 <ais523> actually, PBA vs. RBoA is probably worth analysing by all economists
20:35:07 <elliott> ais523: I'm a bit of a slowpoke, I probably should have jumped in earlier
20:35:13 <elliott> ais523: gah, I was just thinking about the PBA
20:35:16 <elliott> ais523: trying to mentally revise it
20:35:21 <ais523> elliott: if you're a slowpoke, you'll go and dominate the leaderboard
20:35:24 <elliott> then I wondered about having a bank backed by bitcoins, which sounded like fun
20:35:29 <ais523> until you get trapped by consistency
20:35:33 <elliott> OTOH, people would be unlikely to use it
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20:35:40 <elliott> but, at least, more likely than "real" currency
20:35:44 <elliott> despite that not being rational
20:35:51 <quintopia> ais523: are you saying that for a widespread currency, currency acquisition becomes more expensive than the value of the currency? that seems to contradict the definition of "value"?
20:36:01 <elliott> ais523: anyway, the PBA is still inherently better than the RBoA, IMO
20:36:09 <elliott> ais523: it just needs tweaking
20:36:33 <ais523> elliott: you're speaking as if it still exists
20:36:39 <elliott> ais523: i'm speaking about it in the abstract
20:36:42 <ais523> quintopia: indeed, that's why currencies tend not to collapse
20:36:47 <elliott> ais523: and the PBA did very well for a long time, it was killed by (1) my coding negligence, (2) BobTHJ's everything negligence and (3) the resulting bank run of one by Wooble
20:36:50 <ais523> the value is based on a circular argument, but it's a persistent one
20:36:54 <elliott> *(3) the collapse of the game, and the
20:36:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> ais523: what I object to is your use of the word "bitcoin"
20:37:07 <ais523> elliott: the collapse of the economy in general helped too, I think
20:37:18 <elliott> ais523: that's what i said, unless you mean the real world economy
20:37:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Phantom_Hoover: because he was objecting to bitcoins in various ways, but they actually applied to every currency
20:37:36 <ais523> elliott: I meant the Agoran economy
20:37:41 <ais523> the game didn't collapse, just the AAA
20:37:47 <elliott> ais523: I think the start of the PBA was really interesting, because it was amazing how out of whack the RBoA rates are
20:38:14 <ais523> and, incidentally, both banks were backed by the AAA, which was backed by the scoring system
20:38:22 <ais523> so the banks worked fine just as long as win by points did
20:38:27 <elliott> ais523: it was also backed by notes
20:38:31 <elliott> only the AAA dwarfed notes
20:38:52 <elliott> ais523: IMO, a bank should have some built-in-to-the-contract way of selling off work
20:38:59 <elliott> ais523: so that e.g. it would still work even if only offices were left
20:39:06 <elliott> because you could get out of office duties by paying someone else to do them
20:39:13 <quintopia> ais523: i think that is naive to say. there are many reasons why currencies collapse, but i don't think it ever happens because people all at once decide that currency is not as valuable as it once was. from what i've seen it happens when actual real world conditions change to modify the perceived value of the coin
20:39:29 <ais523> elliott: see my attempt to create a new economy at Agora
20:39:33 <ais523> which I need to get back to
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20:39:45 <elliott> ais523: I probably oppose it, because now I'm all set on reviving the PBA but better
20:39:48 <elliott> ais523: we have contracts now, right?
20:39:49 <quintopia> for instance, when someone changes the rules about what can be done with currency
20:39:56 <elliott> ais523: well, can we get contracts back?
20:40:01 <ais523> but the PBA needs something to refer to
20:40:06 <ais523> and my new economy works a bit like contracts
20:40:17 <ais523> you could still create banks, but in nomic they need something to back the
20:40:22 <ais523> mostly because otherwise they have nothing to trade
20:40:28 <ais523> so my plan would create the banking
20:40:35 <ais523> and you could go nuts on top of that
20:40:37 <elliott> ais523: like I said, work is the backing
20:40:42 <elliott> as well as other currencies
20:40:48 <elliott> in fact, the other trades would be based on "work = {transfer me X}"
20:41:10 <ais523> elliott: and that work is what I was planning to make into a currency
20:41:14 <ais523> or more precisely, actions
20:41:27 <elliott> ais523: hmm, perhaps then; I think contract law was a good way of doing that, though
20:41:30 <ais523> more or less like the Vote Market, except not so hideously stupid
20:41:36 <elliott> ais523: although contract law would be better if it was based on individual pledges
20:41:40 <elliott> you can emulate contracts with those, I think
20:41:42 <ais523> it's really an attempt to bring back something contract-like
20:41:45 <elliott> and even emulate equity enforcement with them
20:41:48 <ais523> basically, it's tradeable pledges
20:41:56 <ais523> you write a message, you can give it to other people
20:42:02 <ais523> and they can spend it to make you send it
20:42:19 <elliott> ais523: can we finally define infinitesimal time to allow message ordering to be formally defined at the same time?
20:42:23 <elliott> that'd be useful, to define "message"
20:42:33 <elliott> ais523: (otherwise it might be judged that you have to include headers too! :D)
20:42:43 <ais523> there's an argument about that atm (my contested registration)
20:43:02 <ais523> I tried to get it as close to the player/not-a-player borderline as possible, I think I judged it quite well
20:43:45 <elliott> hmm, I wonder why I haven't made any bitcoins yet
20:43:52 <elliott> possibly they haven't passed my set 0.01 pool threshold
20:44:34 <elliott> "Bitcoin is a form of domestic terrorism because it only harms the economic stability of the USA and its currency" ;; I hope nobody's actually said this...
20:44:54 <elliott> "Bitcoins are stored in wallet files, just copy the wallet file to get more coins!" ;; lol :D
20:45:02 <elliott> this faq is great, bunch of stupid questions :)
20:46:12 <ais523> the thing that prevents the coin copying is that if you spend both copies, only one can be baked into a block by whoever's mining (or it isn't a valid block), and they get to choose which of the transactions is valid
20:46:17 <Sgeo> elliott, actual criticism I have: All transactions are public. Even though the identities are conceiled, it may be worked out what's going on to some degree
20:46:30 <Gregor> OK, I have returned to calmness (also home :P )
20:46:43 <ais523> if someone apparently sends you bitcoins, you're supposed to wait for a chain past that point to build up to be sure you actually have them and they wern't lying
20:46:50 <elliott> ais523: practically, it's that you have to rewrite the rest of history to get anything to trust you, IIRC
20:47:11 <elliott> ais523: but yeah, when the faucet gave me 0.05 coins it started off unconfirmed
20:47:14 <elliott> now it's up to 42 confirmations
20:47:19 <ais523> and even then, it only lets you double-spend your own coins
20:47:23 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:47:38 <elliott> "Nick Clegg tops April Fools poll after pretending to keep a pre-election promise"
20:47:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I HOPE YOU ENJOYED THAT PING
20:49:43 <elliott> [[Bitcoin community are anarchist/conspiracy theorist/gold standard weenies
20:52:23 <zzo38> Do you have a Windows binary of ImageMagick for Fourier transforming?
20:54:03 <ais523> elliott: interesting approach
20:55:55 <elliott> <Sgeo> elliott, actual criticism I have: All transactions are public. Even though the identities are conceiled, it may be worked out what's going on to some degree
20:56:00 <elliott> Sgeo: You can create a new address for every transaction.
20:56:13 <quintopia> elliott: question: if I have coins in my wallet, that were sent to my keypair A, can I transfer them to keypair B without leaving a trace connecting keypair A and B?
20:56:21 <ais523> elliott: but you can figure out how each coin was traded
20:56:28 <ais523> so you'd need to do some sort of crazy money laundering
20:56:34 <elliott> quintopia: only if you refuse to pay the transaction fee
20:56:36 <ais523> say by converting them to real-word currency and back
20:56:48 <elliott> quintopia: which is Bad Behaviour
20:57:14 <ais523> elliott: well, the previous history of owners of every bitcoin is recorded; it has to be , or it wouldn't work
20:57:21 <elliott> ais523: re: tracking things, I suspect it would get lost in the noise
20:58:32 <quintopia> elliott: but wouldn't you, in that case, be paying a transaction fee to yourself?
20:58:52 <elliott> quintopia: err, no, you just wouldn't pay one at all
20:59:26 <quintopia> and how would it record that you changed the key you are using for the coin
20:59:35 * elliott tries to figure out whether "Building nuclear reactor at home - from scratch" is an AF or not
21:00:46 <zzo38> What happens with FFT, if you switch the magnitude and phase? What happen if you mirror the phase image and leave the magnitude as is? What if you did the other way around?
21:01:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, comments prove that it's certainly plausible (although not actually a nuclear reactor), but I'm still not sure
21:01:21 <elliott> zzo38: Things. Various things.
21:01:26 <elliott> Changes in the result according to the changes you make.
21:01:32 <Gregor> http://notalwaysright.com/lindsay-lohan-is-bad-for-your-health/10933 Bahaha
21:02:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ggg43/guys_ive_just_built_tiny_nuclear_reactor_at_home/
21:02:28 <ais523> elliott: you got one from the distributed block-finding thing?
21:02:36 <elliott> ais523: no, see the url above
21:02:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: bitcoins start with a lot of 0s
21:02:44 <elliott> so my mental pattern matcher has now short-circuited
21:03:11 <ais523> you saw three gs at the start of the URL, thought "that's unlikely", and assumed it was valuable?
21:03:15 <Gregor> "Tiny" and "nuclear reactor" don't go so well together ...
21:03:21 <elliott> Gregor: it's not a real nuclear reactor
21:03:28 <elliott> ais523: apparently I'll get an email once I reach the stunning total of 0.01 bitcoins
21:03:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes; the title seems AF-geared, though
21:03:50 <elliott> ais523: because i turned on email on payout :)
21:03:55 <ais523> I've actually thought of a potential problem that isn't addressed there
21:04:14 <elliott> er, in what? bitcoins? reactors?
21:04:49 <ais523> the way mining works, if you want consistent payouts rather than gambling - and probably most people will - it's in your interests to join the largest mining group
21:04:57 <ais523> which would over time lead to the smaller ones collapsing
21:05:08 <elliott> ais523: that's not quite true
21:05:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:05:15 <ais523> which would give the people in charge of the group a lot of control
21:05:25 <elliott> ais523: it's been shown that over infinite time, ignoring difficulty changes, the payout of a group ~= the payout of doing it manually
21:05:29 <elliott> (or even ==, I'm not sure)
21:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, cobalt-60 doesn't even emit gamma radiation without decaying, it just emits gamma radiation when it beta decays.
21:05:32 <Gregor> elliott: OK, so from skimming that, I agree; it's not a nuclear reactor, it's a nuclear flashlight :P
21:05:45 <elliott> ais523: if you have limited hardware, a group is infinitely better because of difficulty increases and time
21:05:46 <ais523> elliott: it's the same on average, but it's more consistent in a group
21:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as bad as it saying that GFMs are unitless, I suppose.
21:05:55 <ais523> and more consistency = good for most people
21:06:04 <elliott> ais523: but if you have a bunch of good GPUs, a pretty sustained rate of 50 bitcoins is far nicer looking
21:06:10 <elliott> ais523: than a steadier rate of a lot less
21:06:27 <elliott> ais523: and, let's face it, "most people" aren't going to mine
21:06:37 <elliott> they'll get bitcoins in far more reasonable ways (assuming "most people" adopt it, that is)
21:06:49 <ais523> they probably are if bitcoin catches on, otherwise transaction fees will go up very high
21:07:14 <elliott> well, they'll set their idle resources to it, I suppose, but mining without a GPU is already hideously impractical
21:08:52 <elliott> what I mean is, I got bored enough to check out a GPU miner before I mined anything with a CPU
21:09:14 <ais523> GPU is just much better for that sort of thing
21:10:14 * elliott tries to figure out the words to justify a GPU cluster as a financial investment
21:12:28 <elliott> I wonder if the EFF will appreciate a ~5 cent donation
21:15:34 <elliott> argh, my wm has fucked up again
21:15:43 <ais523> elliott: I bet they will
21:15:49 <ais523> not very much, but slightly
21:16:05 <elliott> I think I'll hoard my bitcoins until I have more than that :-P
21:16:12 <elliott> seriously though, argh, why does my wm do this
21:17:22 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:17:25 -!- elliott has joined.
21:17:33 <elliott> I should run the miner on the console instead... or just ditch X entirely
21:17:36 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
21:17:36 -!- elliott has joined.
21:21:38 -!- augur has joined.
21:25:12 <elliott> oh, my total reward so far is ~0.00065 bitcoins
21:25:45 <elliott> ais523: ugh, you re-re-did the c-intercal build system?
21:25:49 <elliott> oh god, don't tell me it was esr
21:26:05 <ais523> and I redid it myself in order to stop him
21:26:14 <ais523> but that was months ago
21:26:15 <elliott> ais523: why did he want to redo it?
21:26:22 <ais523> generated files in the repo, of all things
21:26:26 <ais523> which should be irrelevant
21:26:35 <ais523> no, he wanted there to be none at all
21:26:48 <ais523> so basically it was a case of writing a bootstrap shellscript that could generate all the files from scratc
21:26:52 <elliott> "The floating-point library is now automatically included if
21:26:52 <elliott> a program NEXTs to labels in the range 5000-5999."
21:26:52 <ais523> previously they generated each other
21:27:03 <elliott> I'm going through them to ew at them
21:27:04 <ais523> and only if it doesn't contain any label in that range
21:27:07 <ais523> which he forgot to specify
21:27:32 <ais523> elliott: it's the way INTERCAL library inclusion has Always Worked, just NEXT to a line that doesn't exist and it tries to find an appropriate library
21:27:54 <elliott> "Bugs reported by Elliott Hird" yaey im fameous
21:28:26 <elliott> but Vorpal got the credit for one
21:28:32 <elliott> which is the grossest injustice
21:28:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG YOU'RE FAMOUS TOO
21:29:00 <elliott> ais523: you forgot to call him Adhahamhamhmahmahhmanhnmhanhahn McSomething
21:29:03 <elliott> at least I think he's said he's McSomething
21:29:04 <Sgeo> http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/NEWS.html
21:29:27 <Sgeo> How bad was the typo?
21:29:43 <elliott> 29. The function clock_gettime is now supported by the yuk profiler as an
21:29:44 <elliott> alternative method of getting a high-resolution clock for profiling (it
21:29:44 <elliott> is available on at least Linux).
21:29:44 <Sgeo> Did it have the capacity to end all life on Earth? That would be a very nasty typo
21:30:07 <elliott> ais523: you switched from tar to pax because POSIX deprecated the former in favour of the latter (OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHY), you should do the same for gettimeofday -> clock_gettime
21:30:14 <elliott> gettimeofday was removed in POSIX 2008, replaced by clock_gettime
21:30:19 <ais523> elliott: clock_gettime is used if it exists, IIRC
21:30:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: for what, what I said?
21:30:29 <elliott> read the posix standard yourself
21:31:01 <ais523> not only that, but the libraries and compiled programs now agree on which profiling function to use!
21:31:04 <ais523> (that bug was hilarious)
21:31:31 <elliott> ais523: how many optimisations are there? I'm wondering if I can wile away a few hours by creating more obvious ones and giving them to you
21:31:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you're in the readme
21:32:03 <elliott> which should be called Changelog
21:32:04 <ais523> elliott: quite a lot; aiming for flow rather than expression optimisation would probably help
21:32:13 <elliott> ais523: btw, have you informed esr that there are, in fact, modern INTERCAL implementations not derived from his?
21:32:23 <ais523> he's aware of CLC-INTERCAL, but ignores it
21:32:27 <elliott> he was under the impression that there weren't in his awful blog post
21:32:27 <ais523> which is a weird combination
21:32:33 <elliott> ais523: heh, what do you mean?
21:32:39 <ais523> he knows it exists, but refuses to act as if it does
21:32:39 <elliott> did you point out CLC and he said "Yeah yeah whatever"?
21:32:43 <ais523> I think it's an attempt to save sanity
21:32:56 <elliott> but what did he actually say when you pointed it out; or haven't you
21:33:01 <elliott> also, there's J-INTERCAL; not *that* modern, but still
21:33:14 <ais523> J- is just like a worse version of old-fashioned C-
21:33:24 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL has been intrinsically different forever
21:33:30 <ais523> and http://c.intercal.org.uk
21:33:38 <elliott> ais523: yes, but J- is both (1) pretty modern and (2) an INTERCAL implementation
21:34:09 <ais523> also, it seems that with 0.29, the tarball has /just/ creeped over a million bytes
21:34:43 <elliott> ais523: YOU SHOULD WRITE AN INTERCAL REPL
21:34:52 <elliott> that automatically increments statement numbers (and uses them as the prompt)
21:35:00 <ais523> oh, statement numbers?
21:35:02 <elliott> (so you can copy-paste lines into an intercal program directly, and also keep track of control flow... kinda)
21:35:11 <elliott> ais523: line numbers, whatever
21:35:12 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL has a REPL (INTERCALC), which I've actually used before now to do some quick INTERCAL calculations
21:35:19 <ais523> but it treats each statement independently
21:36:11 <elliott> how are statement numbers done again? (number)?
21:36:57 <elliott> (1) PLEASE DO COME FROM (2)
21:37:06 <ais523> elliott: that's an error already
21:37:07 <elliott> (2) PLEASE DO COME FROM (1)
21:37:14 <ais523> you mean (1) PLEASE DO COME FROM #2
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21:37:21 <ais523> which is a no-op rather than an error if the line doesn't exist
21:37:25 <ais523> the second line can stay the same
21:37:30 <elliott> ais523: the second line WILL exist
21:37:35 <elliott> ais523: you pretend every line exists already
21:37:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I can't remember
21:37:41 <elliott> ais523: but don't execute statements until the lines they depend on exist
21:37:42 <ais523> but it was pretty bad, I said the opposite of what I meant
21:38:55 <elliott> ais523: or _does_ the latter come into effect once (2) starts existing?
21:39:11 <elliott> (1) PLEASE DO READ OUT #1234
21:39:34 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL's WHILE would be useful for this, except it only applies to expressions
21:39:40 <elliott> the second line's output has to get removed
21:39:48 <ais523> DO statement WHILE expression executes the expression as soon as it makes sense and doesn't error
21:40:00 <ais523> and continues with the statement and the rest of the program
21:40:51 <ais523> elliott: clearly you need Feather
21:41:12 <elliott> hmm, is CLC-INTERCAL non-Free software too?
21:41:18 <ais523> it's BSD-licensed, IIRC
21:41:22 <ais523> or something very similar
21:41:26 <elliott> * 2. Any changes you make must be clearly identified by comments
21:41:26 <elliott> * (example: "this function rewritten by YOUR NAME to change the
21:41:26 <elliott> * way bogons are emitted")
21:42:01 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/669d38f639b60093 ;; uh oh, someone who actually believes that only github has git repositories
21:42:06 <ais523> elliott: it's three-clause BSD with some of the language changed for amusement value
21:42:15 <elliott> thankfully, I read their other thread and it looks like they're insane in the mundane, real-world sense
21:42:54 <ais523> or trolling, except that what's the point in trolling a.l.i?
21:43:01 -!- cpressey has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Qdeql +Sceql +SMETANA) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:43:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is it meant to be watched with 1911 mode on?
21:43:14 <elliott> cpressey, always the marketer!
21:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, it should be watched so you can understand the SCIENCE?
21:43:31 <ais523> elliott: wait, it's April 1, why are you believing him?
21:43:45 <ais523> he might have been sneaky and put Thue and Unlambda in there instead!
21:43:51 <elliott> "Hmm. Indeed, this forum is indeed not very mephitic. And I *do* feel like escaping my matrix of solidity... aha! The solution to my woes!"
21:44:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: surely you've clicked the 1911 in the corner
21:46:18 <ais523> are things like 1911 mode kept forever?
21:46:29 <ais523> as in, accessible after April 1 via an URL param or whatever?
21:46:53 <elliott> ais523: well, TEXTp wasn't
21:47:01 <elliott> it makes every video better
21:47:14 <ais523> it makes it hard to hear the sound, and the picture's a bit flaky
21:47:31 <elliott> it makes it impossible to hear the sound, it's muted
21:48:04 <ais523> it wasn't so much a joke, as an understatement to make the sentence flow a bit better
21:48:27 <elliott> WOOO I'M ABOUT HALF WAY TO 0.01 BITCOINS
21:48:39 <elliott> this computer is not a very fast compuer.
21:49:30 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: off to implement another one I suppose).
21:51:29 <zzo38> I found LodePNG. It can use C or C++ (just rename the file and the compiler will use C mode or C++ mode). Probably I could remove the parts I don't need. Maybe I could convert the rest to CWEB? Would it work?
21:52:35 <elliott> meh, /me kills the miner for now, want to do some programming and it's too laggy
21:52:51 <elliott> I'll save it until I have a desktop with a decent GPU
21:54:55 <elliott> ais523: is gcc's [index] = foo array thing C99 or GNU C89+? I know you've used it, in DNA Maze
21:57:04 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
21:59:43 <elliott> register Cell tos asm("al");
21:59:44 <elliott> register Cell sos asm("ah");
22:00:14 <elliott> hmm, Befunge-93 programs have a hard limit to the number of stack they can use, right?
22:00:23 <elliott> because they have a maximum number of cycles
22:02:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:02:49 <elliott> oh wait, the befunge-93 stack is of 32-bit words
22:03:08 <elliott> gah, the x86 is so register starved
22:03:30 <elliott> ais523: quick! what's a non-eax general purpose register
22:03:36 <elliott> (as in _really_ general purpose :-P)
22:06:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:07:16 <elliott> oh, lame, fizzie's ff3 does exactly what mine is going to
22:07:43 <elliott> although it does break the standard
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22:15:37 <elliott> hmm, how random is rand()%4?
22:15:39 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: clock_gettime is used if it exists, IIRC <-- hm if you do that, where do you look for it? On Linux it is in librt.so iirc. On FreeBSD it is in libc.so I think.
22:15:53 <ais523> Vorpal: I look for it in autoconf
22:16:01 <ais523> I think by trying to link it to libc and librt and seeing what happens
22:16:23 <Vorpal> ais523, libc first I presume? Since iirc FreeBSD has librt as well... With different stuff
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22:16:38 <ais523> I think I try to link them both at once
22:16:39 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, that; well, yes, sure. Though I think it's even more characterized by the "different instruction implementations for all cardinal deltas" thing. (Though mooz's "bef" did that too.)
22:16:42 <zzo38> Does rand()&3 work? Does it work better, or worse, if there is a difference?
22:16:51 <elliott> fizzie: I'm doing that too, after seeing yours :P
22:17:01 <elliott> zzo38: it should obviously be identical, by the laws of &
22:17:11 <ais523> zzo38: it works worse than rand()/(RAND_MAX/4) on old implementations of rand(), and the same as rand()%4, obviously
22:17:17 <elliott> fizzie: You can't have non-cardinal deltas in -93, though.
22:17:18 <ais523> on modern implementations, all should be much the same
22:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, in df it seems that the z level counter can go to negative values... range on current map seems to be -17 - 120
22:17:42 <elliott> fizzie: I "plan" to turn it into a proper ripoff of jitfunge98, though.
22:18:02 <ais523> especially as modern compilers optimise %4 into &3 always
22:18:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> hmm, how random is rand()%4? <-- I would presume it depends on your libc.
22:18:11 <ais523> as bitwise AND is faster than integer MODULO
22:18:33 <ais523> elliott: typical LCRNGs, the high-order bits are more random than the low-order bits
22:18:34 <elliott> grr @ http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html
22:18:46 <elliott> ais523: yeah, it's just befunge though, ? should be random enough with rand() :-D
22:18:55 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, such optimizations are helpful when macros are being used.
22:18:58 <fizzie> elliott: Right. I also had a version that macrologized in implementations on all (well, most) possible {stack cell type, playfield element type, another parameter, yet another parameter} option -- so you could select those options on runtime instead of compile-time -- but it grew too large for GCC to handle, I think.
22:19:35 <ais523> what I mean is that rand()/(RAND_MAX/4)) is a better implementation than rand()%4 on some systems, and equal on most others
22:19:35 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you want to do befunge93? Besides how many fingerprints did you do in your last befunge98 implementation? And did you publish the source anywhere?
22:19:38 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I'd quite like to optimise lines properly, too. But OTOH, proper threaded code JITting should be, you know, as fast as Forth, which is good enough for me.
22:19:42 <ais523> and thus generally a better implementation
22:19:46 <zzo38> (Other than that, there is not much advantage over entering those optimizations manually)
22:19:58 <elliott> ais523: but, that doesn't have the bitwise-and SPEEEEEEEEED
22:20:04 <ais523> especially as one is a shift and the other is a bitwise-and, and they're both as fast as each other
22:20:07 <elliott> unless RAND_MAX is a convenient power of two, and a macro
22:20:11 <elliott> or a constant, which I suppose is a given
22:20:26 <Vorpal> still one more instruction
22:20:30 <ais523> actually, you probably want (RAND_MAX+1)/4
22:20:35 <ais523> and allow for integer overflow
22:20:40 <zzo38> I didn't use the rand() command, I made the program, it has its own random number generator, the Xorshift algorithm. It will do modulo, but if the number is too high it will try again (this rarely happens).
22:20:46 <ais523> Vorpal: >> 28 compared to & 3?
22:20:51 <ais523> same instruction count either way
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22:21:30 <Vorpal> that assumes that RAND_MAX is not a lot smaller than INT_MAX
22:22:33 <elliott> fizzie: my main innovation, BTW, is to put the TOS into a register, and hopefully the SOS too if I can find another free register
22:22:37 <elliott> I'm not sure whether that will be an optimisation or not
22:23:50 <zzo38> Is this code OK? if(rng_w<=max_uint-(max_uint%limit)) return rng_w%limit; else <try again>
22:24:22 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers
22:25:00 <elliott> fizzie: How much does stringmode screw with your performance?
22:25:01 <fizzie> elliott: I did that -- well, I mean, I put TOS into a separate variable, which is sort-of analogous -- but didn't manage to make it any better than the simpler stack.
22:25:05 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:25:18 <elliott> Sort of analogous except it won't go into a register at all :P
22:25:41 <zzo38> I do not think the C standard requires that a compiler supports handwriting recognition.
22:25:54 <fizzie> elliott: Well, that's up to the compiler; certainly it could.
22:26:25 <fizzie> elliott: I might have tried declaring it as a file-scope register variable too, in which case it definitely will.
22:26:37 <elliott> Definitely? I thought gcc likes to ignore register.
22:26:46 <elliott> Is there a Befunge-93 benchmark? :-P
22:26:50 <fizzie> Not if you name the register.
22:27:19 <fizzie> "Global register variables reserve registers throughout the program. This may be useful in programs such as programming language interpreters which have a couple of global variables that are accessed very often."
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22:28:03 <olsner> uses global register variables
22:28:08 <elliott> fizzie: Yes; you didn't specify you named the register, though.
22:28:27 <olsner> elliott: throughout the last 2-3 years I believe
22:28:38 <elliott> olsner: I mean, in which case.
22:29:03 <elliott> every time you declare a global?
22:29:11 <olsner> I mean, just generally stores some data in dedicated registers that are reserved throughout the runtime of the program
22:29:28 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I don't really recall what all I tried, to be honest. Anyhoo, re stringmode, that's not very clever; as a matter of fact, at " it just calls a push_string() function, which isn't even constant-delta parametrized.
22:30:15 <fizzie> And re benchmarks, the only thing I've used is the "run life.bef for N seconds, measure the amount of generated output", which is... pretty bad, as far as benchmarks go.
22:30:49 <elliott> hmm, does Output Integer output a space after like funge-98?
22:30:51 <fizzie> Also here's what ff2 tried to do: http://p.zem.fi/mf5a.c ... it didn't quite turn out well.
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22:32:16 <elliott> Maybe I'll just only support 64-bit processors.
22:32:44 <olsner> is this for your miniforth?
22:33:02 <fizzie> ff3 puts three zeroes underneath the the stack so that it can just do the operation without worrying about the stack, and then fix it up later. (I think it was an optimization in at least some cases.)
22:33:25 <elliott> olsner: Feel free to code a compiler for that and maybe I'll start working on it again :P
22:33:25 <olsner> does that mean you've dropped the forth thing or that it's done?
22:33:33 <fizzie> (I shamelessly stole the wrapping thing from mooz, too.)
22:33:41 <elliott> fizzie: Heck, I'm not even bothering to check at all.
22:33:51 <elliott> olsner: A compiler would probably be pretty easy, but I'm lazy.
22:34:07 <fizzie> (ff1 used to wrap by having a 256x256 playfield and byte-sized ops, but that's pretty slow since it has a huge playfield to walk around in regular-sized programs.)
22:34:17 <olsner> bah, "above" is not nearly specific enough for me to look it up
22:34:30 <elliott> olsner: <elliott> olsner: Feel free to code a compiler for that and maybe I'll start working on it again :P
22:34:41 <olsner> oh, for the forth thing
22:35:10 <olsner> I might! I don't really know how to do forth though
22:35:26 <elliott> olsner: All a compiler has to do is allocate a dictionary entry, and then look words up, and append them with either CALL or RET to the dictionary entry.
22:35:39 <elliott> olsner: Well, technically some words have compile-time semantics. But I think colorForth gets around this.
22:35:42 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, it seems that ff3 has a -DUNSAFE_STACK=1 compile-time option for a no-underflow-checking stack too. (Since I generally don't pop from the empty stack myself.)
22:35:47 <elliott> So no worries, branches can be handled later :P
22:35:56 <olsner> elliott: you make it sound like it's trivial - that would imply that you're stupid
22:35:59 <elliott> fizzie: You still break the spec for /.
22:36:03 <elliott> olsner: No - it would imply that I'm lazy.
22:36:24 <elliott> fizzie: Now to figure out how to do # without breaking my code structure :P
22:36:31 <elliott> Maybe I could temporarily overwrite the next command with a nop.
22:36:44 <elliott> Except figuring out the next command is non-trivial, because my delta functions also interpret.
22:38:01 <fizzie> elliott: You mean the "won't ask the user for /0" thing? It's not exactly stated in the http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html spec, I don't think. Though I admit it would be the more proper thing to do.
22:38:13 <elliott> fizzie: It would be SO PROPER
22:38:44 <elliott> gah, the & spec is so vague
22:38:51 <fizzie> Funge-98 spec says Befunge-93 is supposed to ask the user, but I don't think that quite counts as a specified thing.
22:39:09 <fizzie> It's like C++ spec saying things about what C does. :p
22:39:14 <elliott> Also also, is there a way to tell gcc to fill the rest of an array initialised with [x] = y constructs with a certain value?
22:39:38 <fizzie> For a certain value of 0 that's easy. :p
22:40:04 <elliott> And does ~ reflect on EOF?
22:40:07 <fizzie> Don't think there's anything else, unfortunately.
22:40:29 <fizzie> There's not much reflecting going on in the '93 land.
22:40:46 <elliott> What's ~ do then, push -1?
22:41:12 <fizzie> You could test against the reference implementation, of course.
22:41:21 <elliott> Although EOF is not guaranteed to be -1.
22:43:33 <elliott> fizzie: According to some talk page nobody, values on the stack should be a "signed long int".
22:43:37 <elliott> According to the Befunge-93 documentation.
22:45:02 <zzo38> LodePNG is written by one guy who also did some things with esolangs too.
22:47:00 <elliott> fizzie: Hunh, what's this with you supporting diagonal deltas?
22:47:29 <elliott> Ohh, I see what you mean with a fluhfluh for every fluhfluh.
22:47:33 <elliott> I'm doing it the boring way.
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22:58:02 <fizzie> Actually I do have this benchmark.bef I got from somewhere, but as far as benchmarks go it's alsp pretty poor. Full contents:
22:58:50 <fizzie> (At least it gets nice performance boost from the boundary-tracking wrapping.)
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23:42:21 * iconmaster is enjoying being locked in his matrix of solidity.
23:42:37 * oerjan is hating it with a passion
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23:51:29 <elliott> oerjan: What, you wanna be LIQUID? Get outta my house.
23:51:39 <elliott> GASEOUS maybe? NO WAIT: oerjan, FREED in his matrix of PLASMOLOGY.
23:51:46 <elliott> ...so Emacs Lisp is lexically scoped now.
23:55:07 <iconmaster> Whenever I see (defun ...) in Lisp, I think STOP TAKING THE FUN OUT OF MY SUBROUTINES.
23:59:17 <zzo38> iconmaster: Can those kind of things be changed with macros or something like that, so that you can use your own words?