00:00:39 <elliott> !c printf("%ld\n", -180447893567515161L / 918168945243822051L);
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00:12:22 <oerjan> zomg it's the modules again
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00:21:23 <oerjan> import Zomg.Cookies(ChocolateChip,Almond)
00:22:41 <oerjan> main = mapM_ eat $ cycle [ChocolateChip, Almond]
00:22:53 <elliott> > -180447893567515161 / 918168945243822051
00:22:56 <elliott> > -180447893567515161 `div` 918168945243822051
00:23:11 <elliott> > let (/) = div in -180447893567515161 / 918168945243822051
00:23:36 <oerjan> elliott: i believe unary minus has lower precedence than `div`
00:23:42 <elliott> > let (/) = div in (-180447893567515161) / 918168945243822051
00:24:04 <elliott> why does nothing follow C semantics here?
00:24:19 <oerjan> > (-180447893567515161) `quot` 918168945243822051
00:24:33 <oerjan> because haskell has both versions
00:25:03 <oerjan> div and mod are more mathematical
00:25:21 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, but x86 does quot :)
00:25:29 <oerjan> while quot and rem are frequently ... yes
00:25:39 <elliott> erm, does rem ignore the sign?
00:25:58 <elliott> oerjan: that's fucked up, C has quot and mod
00:26:18 <elliott> Gregor: ^ Are you sure we want to make Fythe follow such fucked-up semantics :P
00:26:37 <Gregor> These seem to be C's semantics.
00:26:47 <elliott> That's sort of not what you said in #plof
00:26:49 <oerjan> elliott: both of haskell's versions fulfil the (a%b)+(a/b)*b = a property
00:26:54 <Gregor> I said I was wrong in #plof :P
00:27:00 <oerjan> which is important algebraically
00:27:11 <elliott> Gregor: Hay wanna fix fytheBignumMod in bignum.c? 8D
00:27:18 <elliott> It's actually fairly easy to follow for the bignum functions :P
00:27:20 <Gregor> <Gregor> x % y = sign(x) * (abs(x) % abs(y))
00:27:25 <Gregor> ^^^ This is C semantics
00:27:43 <elliott> Yes yes, go fix it, I'm taking a short break from bignum.c to test the bastards :P
00:28:36 <ZOMGMODULES> me, I would just throw an exception if either argument was negative, or if the rhs was zero
00:29:04 <oerjan> Gregor: i repeat, haskell's unary minus has lower precedence that `div` etc.
00:30:20 <elliott> ERROR: (335272555365323022 * -725962439160346310) % (-640621279300857530 * -981358903806926303) = -243395282076532154171070906535748820
00:30:49 <oerjan> i'm not sure using a negative divisor with this stuff is recommended under any circumstances
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00:32:15 <elliott> <elliott> ERROR: (335272555365323022 * -725962439160346310) % (-640621279300857530 * -981358903806926303) = -243395282076532154171070906535748820
00:32:17 <elliott> <elliott> Well that's not good.
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00:33:48 <elliott> Gregor: There's overspill :P
00:34:00 <elliott> Gregor: I'm gonna have to fix fytheIModBignum myself, aren't I :(
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00:38:37 <ZOMGMODULES> <oerjan> i'm not sure using a negative divisor with this stuff is recommended under any circumstances
00:39:04 <ZOMGMODULES> who is the library designer to second-guess what the library's users may need someday?
00:40:06 <elliott> oerjan: literals default to integer in haskell right?
00:40:19 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
00:42:15 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: yes, but in ghc -e
00:44:03 <ZOMGMODULES> me, I agree with lambdabot. in general, literals shouldn't prescribe their type
00:46:10 <ZOMGMODULES> if you think it isn't you've been spending too much time with computers
00:46:49 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: as in pretty much all my life, yes
00:46:53 <elliott> it obviously is an integer
00:47:01 <elliott> but nobody writes "4.0" unless the context is non-integers
00:47:10 <elliott> so it's a fairly good hint to a computer that you don't want a pure integral type imo
00:47:19 <oerjan> elliott: default defaulting is to Integer, then Double; it has nothing to do with _literals_ per se
00:49:02 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
00:49:48 <oerjan> that's wrong in so many ways
00:50:33 <oerjan> although someone _did_ hack together a partial BASIC DSL in Haskell
00:51:49 <elliott> oerjan: it was lennart right?
00:52:07 <oerjan> i cannot recall, i thought it was pure haskell...
00:53:06 <oerjan> oh maybe it was a monad for compiling into LLVM
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00:58:14 <tswett> I am here for five minutes. Let's see what people have said.
00:59:29 <Sgeo> tswett, there's a new person
01:01:07 <ZOMGMODULES> he will totally convince tswettbot to eat itself though OM NOM NOM NOM
01:03:43 <newsham> i'm an old person, actually
01:04:06 <tswett> Well, good night, everyone.
01:04:25 <oerjan> but definitely a new sham
01:05:22 <lambdabot> No instance for (Fractional [Char])
01:05:23 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `/' at <interactive>:1:0-10
01:05:23 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Fractional [Char])
01:06:01 <elliott> newsham: you might want to file for a name change just to avoid the puns
01:07:42 <newsham> i'm not one to shy from puns
01:08:09 <newsham> like two peanuts in central park, one was assaulted.
01:08:55 <elliott> newsham: erm. be very careful
01:08:57 <elliott> oerjan is in charge of puns around here.
01:09:02 <elliott> you don't want to get on his bad side
01:10:06 <oerjan> i'm just annoyed no one got my pun without spoonfeeding
01:10:27 <elliott> oerjan: um you realise people get your puns then ignore them
01:11:09 <ZOMGMODULES> I need an emoticon which succinctly signifies "ACKNOWLEDGE PUN" and nothing else
01:11:44 <newsham> the official response is "*groan*"
01:12:14 <elliott> newsham: here we swat instead.
01:12:19 <elliott> but that's usually a fuss to type.
01:12:51 * oerjan swats newsham -----###
01:13:02 * lambdabot smashes a lamp on ZOMGMODULES's head
01:13:10 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; ?slap looks rather dangerous.
01:13:15 <Sgeo> ?slap lambdabot
01:13:25 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; shapr looks rather dangerous.
01:13:39 <Sgeo> ?asdfasdf asdfasdf
01:14:07 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; shapr looks rather dangerous.
01:14:37 * lambdabot moulds Sgeo into a delicous cookie, and places it in her oven
01:15:09 <elliott> if we abuse lambdabot too much it'll get taken away again! :p
01:17:26 * Sgeo is having some difficulty finding an OpenGenera emulator
01:17:44 <newsham> brad parker has VLM which runs in x64 linux
01:18:03 * ZOMGMODULES is having no difficulty at finding an OpenGenera emulator. Of course, he's not actually trying.
01:18:28 <Sgeo> http://weblog.mrbill.net/archives/2008/05/18/finally-got-open-genera-running/
01:18:37 <newsham> http://www.unlambda.com/download/genera/
01:18:44 <newsham> docs here http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux
01:19:07 <Sgeo> I saw unlambda, just didn't realize it also had OpenGenera
01:21:01 <elliott> newsham: oh, is that newer than the one going around on teh torrentz?
01:21:16 <elliott> I have the OpenGenera distribution, but the snap4 emulator is buggy as all hell
01:21:39 <newsham> talk to brad, he was talking about rolling a new dist but i dont think he ever did
01:21:59 <newsham> btw, he's got a huge refrigerator sized lispm that he's giving away free (as of earlier this week) if anyone wants one.. arlington ma. :)
01:22:49 <elliott> but no way i'd be able to afford the shipping
01:22:56 <elliott> of one of the real ones, I mean, not any of this macivory crap :)
01:23:18 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.cliki.net/Linux%20VLM%20workarounds
01:23:22 <elliott> Vorpal: that's a workaround for having to start it as root
01:26:21 <Sgeo> I take it no one has ever made a smalltalk machine?
01:26:53 * ZOMGMODULES feels space and time start bending around him
01:28:48 * Sgeo doesn't have the attention span
01:31:48 <ZOMGMODULES> at Bitbucket, for not including BASIC in their "What language is this project in" dropdown
01:32:28 <ZOMGMODULES> They do have R though. God bless their little hearts!
01:33:04 <ZOMGMODULES> They have like a half-dozen languages I've never heard of, and frankly, that I doubt exist.
01:34:13 <ZOMGMODULES> "SuperCollider"... I so hope that one's as interesting as it sounds
01:34:24 <ZOMGMODULES> THINGS BETTER BE FRICKEN COLLIDING IN THAT
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01:36:23 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: supercollider is awesome
01:36:27 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: it's an audio processing language thing
01:36:41 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/SuperCollider_screenshot3.jpg
01:36:48 <elliott> well, yaxu's software uses it :)
01:37:06 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: duby is a boring "ZOMG RUBY WITH TYPES" on the jvm.
01:38:09 <pizearke> Funny question about fractran...
01:38:24 <elliott> i think oerjan is the one who knows fractran :D
01:38:46 <pizearke> Do you know how you would go about representing a list in fractran?
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01:38:59 <pizearke> Because there's no way of introducing new primes.
01:39:38 <oerjan> right, it would have to be encoded into the exponent of one prime (or possibly more, but one is enough)
01:40:21 <oerjan> if the list elements are bits, then you can for example encode using binary
01:40:51 <oerjan> 0,1,1,0 -> 10110_2 = 22
01:41:26 <pizearke> But there's no way to use an infinite amount of primes, right?
01:42:01 <oerjan> a fractran program can only meaningfully use primes that divide one of the listed numerators or denominators
01:44:12 <oerjan> basically a fractran program essentially ends up using the exponents on its primes as registers, and the rest of the trick of programming it is to treat that as a minsky/counter machine
01:45:12 <oerjan> well not exactly but essentially
01:49:07 <newsham> whoa, fractran, sounds weird.
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01:51:25 <oerjan> the not exactly is because you also need some primes for the states of the minsky machine
01:52:00 <elliott> newsham: that conway is a freaky guy
01:52:32 <oerjan> i think it's a bit late for that, how old is he?
01:53:02 <newsham> [15:07] < elliott> oerjan is in charge of puns around here.
01:53:07 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: you should really fix the part where you eyes
01:54:13 <oerjan> "Conway resides in Princeton, New Jersey. He has seven children and three grandchildren, and has been married with his wife Diana since 2001."
01:54:16 <elliott> he's not even been alive for a full generation!
01:54:22 <elliott> "GENERATIONS" IN THE GAME OF LIFE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAIRUHSJFGOUJRWHTREIWJQOFDGHUIEWQ9EWNG
01:54:47 <oerjan> elliott: i just got caught up in the literal meaning, sheesh
01:55:36 <elliott> also i wasn't complaining at oerjan
01:55:46 <oerjan> no i'm just waffling around
01:56:19 <oerjan> after some amount of reddit browsing, that is an automatic reaction to seeing HAHAHAHA
01:56:26 <ZOMGMODULES> where are his other forty-six grandchildren, if he has seven children, he should have forty-nine grandchildren
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02:00:22 <oerjan> ZOMGMODULES: there were so many that most died from overcrowding
02:00:24 <newsham> hmm.. seems like fractran could make a tiny interpretter
02:01:04 <oerjan> newsham: and probably has
02:02:00 <newsham> would be amusing if someone twisted a fractran program inside a larger program as some sort of integrity check as part of a copy protection scheme or something
02:06:17 <elliott> newsham: the J interpreter is tiny :)
02:07:08 <elliott> newsham: it's like APL but better!
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02:08:44 <pizearke> The problem with unoptimized fractran interpreters is that writing anything remotely practical is impossible.
02:09:07 <ZOMGMODULES> wait, how can *fewer* Greek letters be an improvement?
02:09:28 <pizearke> Unless it's in a programming language with infinitely large integers...
02:10:22 <elliott> pizearke: Like all decent programming languages you mean? :)
02:11:18 <elliott> Well, most high-level languages have bignums.
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02:12:38 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", (long long) 2 << 63)
02:12:55 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 2LL << 63LL)
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02:13:03 <elliott> !c printf("%lld\n", (long long) 1 << 63)
02:13:13 <elliott> Gregor: 2 << 63 == 2^64 isn't it
02:13:30 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << 63LL)
02:13:33 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << 62LL)
02:13:45 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << 63LL - 1)
02:13:58 <ZOMGMODULES> !c printf("%lld\n", (long long) 1 << ((long long) 1 << 63))
02:14:09 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << 63LL - 1LL)
02:14:33 <Gregor> ... shouldn't the absolute values of those numbers be off by one?
02:14:48 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 4611686018427387904LL)
02:14:52 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 4611686018427387904LL + 1)
02:15:55 <elliott> omg this guy on rationalwiki is like Sgeo!
02:15:57 <ZOMGMODULES> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << (1LL << (1LL << 63)))
02:16:51 <ZOMGMODULES> i have this vision of a single 1 bit getting v. dizzy
02:17:46 <elliott> Sgeo: you don't want a link :)
02:17:55 <oerjan> > let ft = unfoldr . (find ((==1).denominator) .) . mapM (*) in numerator <$> ft [17/91, 78/85, 19/51, 23/38, 29/33, 77/29, 95/23, 77/19, 1/17, 11/13, 13/11, 15/14, 15/2, 55/1] 1
02:17:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a, b)'
02:20:52 * ZOMGMODULES waits patiently for fix making awesome fun time
02:24:28 <oerjan> > let ft = unfoldr . ((((id&&&id)<$>).find ((==1).denominator)) .) . mapM (*) in numerator <$> ft [17/91, 78/85, 19/51, 23/38, 29/33, 77/29, 95/23, 77/19, 1/17, 11/13, 13/11, 15/14, 15/2, 55/1] 2
02:24:30 <lambdabot> [15,825,725,1925,2275,425,390,330,290,770,910,170,156,132,116,308,364,68,4,...
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02:24:43 <oerjan> fix is a little bit ugly :(
02:32:26 <oerjan> > let ft = unfoldr . (((join (,) <$>).find ((==1).denominator)) .) . mapM (*) in numerator <$> ft [17/91, 78/85, 19/51, 23/38, 29/33, 77/29, 95/23, 77/19, 1/17, 11/13, 13/11, 15/14, 15/2, 55/1] 2
02:32:28 <lambdabot> [15,825,725,1925,2275,425,390,330,290,770,910,170,156,132,116,308,364,68,4,...
02:56:52 <ZOMGMODULES> Sgeo: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cOXGIY9Gl1kJ:desk.org:8080/ToytownStLab/Smalltalk%2520hardware+smalltalk+machine&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=ubuntu&source=www.google.com <-- stuff about Smalltalk machines
02:58:46 <ZOMGMODULES> In other news, I just got word from cpressey that he's migrated his crap onto Bitbucket. The publication model of his website will stay the same for now (modulo internal workflow differences) but he might start moving a few of his projects to be public Bitbucket projects, as a sort of pilot test.
03:00:06 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: but that's so...
03:00:30 <elliott> I accuse that Pressey fellow of reading The Cathedral and the Bazaar.
03:01:14 <ZOMGMODULES> free private version control hosting is free private version control hosting, man
03:01:55 <ZOMGMODULES> free beats paying svnrepository.com $5 a month or whoever that is and whatever it is they're charging him
03:02:03 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: Define "private" :P
03:02:22 <elliott> "but he might start moving a few of his projects to be public Bitbucket projects, as a sort of pilot test."
03:02:33 <elliott> but you...sorry, Chris was all going on about *private* hosting :P
03:02:42 <elliott> I suppose when people say they're going to move a few things, they don't mean all things.
03:03:05 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: heck, bitbucket at $100/mo would be better than svn hosting that pays you because svn
03:04:29 <oerjan> i smell an ig nobel price http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/04/scienceshot-safe-sex-duck-style.html?rss=1
03:04:42 <ZOMGMODULES> svn was awesomesauce when the alternative was cvs
03:05:04 <elliott> http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets/2010/07/30/sn-ducks.jpg pictured: duck penis
03:05:17 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: at least cvs was fast :)
03:05:43 <elliott> i dunno though, that's basically a 2-year limit on svn being acceptable for projects that aren't too big for darcs
03:08:17 <ZOMGMODULES> you can search Bitbucket with "haskell" to find all 140 haskell projects hosted there; but "haskell game" will not return any of the games written in haskell.
03:08:59 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i smell trolling!
03:12:32 <ZOMGMODULES> OH OH OH https://bitbucket.org/zoibot/bfhs/overview
03:13:07 <ZOMGMODULES> https://bitbucket.org/zoibot/bfhs/overview
03:13:19 <ZOMGMODULES> mem = array (1,20000) [(i,0) | i <- [1..20000]]
03:13:53 <elliott> oh wow that is the worst program
03:13:57 <ZOMGMODULES> Very high-quality code you find in these projects
03:14:11 <elliott> lol, bos rules the haskell results
03:14:21 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: github proably has higher-quality stuff ;P
03:19:02 <ZOMGMODULES> much more active development in python projects... lua too, it seems
03:19:49 <elliott> yes, all 3 people who use lua because they don't like python also use hg because they don't like git
03:20:56 <ZOMGMODULES> i like how searching for "ruby" and "erlang" have in their first few hits a project like "foo_python is a version of foo_{ruby,erlang} for python"
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03:31:03 <Sgeo> "In newLISP, all variables are dynamically scoped by default."
03:31:19 * Sgeo ... slightly mindboggles, but maybe it makes more sense if I look at it more
03:32:05 <monqy> sounds like oldlisp
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03:32:58 <elliott> Sgeo: newLISP is retarded.
03:33:11 <elliott> all marketing, no substance.
03:39:37 <elliott> Sgeo: oh, newlisp also lacks garbage collection.
03:39:43 <elliott> in favour of "One Reference Only", which is code for "shit".
03:40:49 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/machine/fractran.py
03:41:00 <newsham> i'm still amazed that thats turing complete. pretty nifty.
03:41:14 <elliott> yeah, fractran is a great tarpit
03:41:16 <newsham> too bad generating inputs and extracting outputs is so much work.
03:41:26 <elliott> frac =: ({~ 1 i.~(=<.))@:*
03:41:36 <elliott> unfortunately J has no bignums :(
03:42:03 <Sgeo> All attempts to find references to newLisp on Reddit reveal that newLisp is very hated
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03:44:33 <elliott> What... "You may have heard the mantra against using eval in other languages. In newLISP, this just doesn’t apply. newLISP’s eval is faster than other LISPs."
03:44:45 <elliott> I started reading a newLISP defence article to see if I might be wrong, but I'm clearly not :)
03:45:04 <monqy> ooh where's this? I need a good laugh
03:45:13 <elliott> http://www.taoeffect.com/blog/2010/01/how-newlisp-took-my-breath-and-syntax-away/
03:45:17 <elliott> it even defends the one-reference only thing!
03:45:29 <elliott> "newLISP’s ORO also means repeatable code execution times; you’ll never experience “GC Hell” because there is no garbage collector."
03:45:50 <elliott> "Remember, newLISP is an interpreted language. Lutz Mueller, the author of newLISP, made a simple cost/benefit analysis and chose dynamic scope because it’s faster than lexical scope, and because it’s very easy to avoid the potential pitfalls of dynamic scope. Instead of this:"
03:45:54 <elliott> I love how half of it is "Speed doesn't matter!"
03:46:02 <elliott> "This terrible design decision is because it's faster!"
03:46:16 <oerjan> > let ft = unfoldr . (((join (,) <$>) . find ((==1).denominator)) .) . mapM (*) in numerator <$> ft [17/91, 78/85, 19/51, 23/38, 29/33, 77/29, 95/23, 77/19, 1/17, 11/13, 13/11, 15/14, 15/2, 55/1] 2
03:46:18 <lambdabot> [15,825,725,1925,2275,425,390,330,290,770,910,170,156,132,116,308,364,68,4,...
03:46:25 <oerjan> newsham: ^ repeat for you
03:47:12 <Sgeo> ``Lambda expressions in newLISP evaluate to themselves and can always be treated as lists''
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03:47:38 <Sgeo> I see how everything elliott quoted is... disturbing.. but what about what I just pasted? I saw that mentioned as a criticism of newLisp
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03:47:50 <elliott> Sgeo: well that's not really a valid criticism
03:48:13 <Sgeo> e was quoting from the manual, and said
03:48:15 <Sgeo> "Have we learned nothing in the last 50 years?"
03:48:18 <Sgeo> I don't get it
03:48:35 <elliott> Well, it makes lexical scoping hard.
03:48:40 <elliott> Because you can't store the closure.
03:49:00 <elliott> Sgeo: Let's put it this way: If you want a tiny, dynamically-scoped, heretical Lisp, go for PicoLisp, because it manages to come out of all that and still be awesome.
03:49:21 <elliott> And it's tinier than newLISP.
03:49:35 <elliott> Also the 64-bit version is written in an assembler implemented in PicoLisp, which is cool.
03:52:08 <Sgeo> elliott, who, exactly, does dynamically-scoped *by default* impress?
03:53:11 * Sgeo googles PicoLisp
03:53:31 <elliott> I have no idea what you are talking about.
03:53:42 <Sgeo> elliott, how is dynamic scoping by default a good feature?
03:54:00 <elliott> PicoLisp's scoping is quite thoroughly fun, they have what's kind of like lexical symbols, that they use instead of strings.
03:54:12 <elliott> Syntax is "x"/underlined x. They do localisation by reassigning strings :)
03:54:25 <elliott> Sgeo: When did I say dynamic scoping is a good feature?
03:54:43 <elliott> I was saying that if you're going to use newLISP, stop and use PicoLisp instead.
03:54:51 <elliott> At least PicoLisp puts the scoping oddities to good use though, like I said.
03:55:13 <elliott> Also PicoLisp has a cool integrated database.
03:55:23 <elliott> Prolog-style. Integrated into the language.
03:56:05 <elliott> And still the interpreter is smaller than newLISP (at least on many platforms).
03:56:15 <elliott> 296 Kio statically-linked interpreter for the OpenWRT distribution.
03:56:51 <Sgeo> elliott, would you anger at me if I focused on understanding PicoLisp better than Common Lisp?
03:56:52 <elliott> It also has a built in web server/framework, I guess because they're trying to demonstrate their magical technology to compress any feature imaginable into a 3 byte binary.
03:57:11 <elliott> Sgeo: I am way beyond caring.
03:59:23 <monqy> I haven't bothered with common lisp yet (learned scheme first; from what I know I prefer it more too, and currently have little use for common lisp)
03:59:43 <Sgeo> "milliseconds per megabyte" is fast?
03:59:48 <Sgeo> For garbage collection/
03:59:53 <elliott> Common Lisp isn't a particularly nice language. It's not bad though.
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04:00:20 <elliott> I wouldn't mind being forced to code Common Lisp for money, to use the Spark terminology :p
04:01:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Depends how many milliseconds.
04:01:49 <elliott> Also what megabytes are being measured: live megabytes? garbage? total allocated?
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04:02:43 <elliott> wittykitty: who's a kitty, YOU'RE A KITTY
04:04:23 <Sgeo> I take it PicoLisp doesn't particularly like floating-point numbers
04:04:54 <elliott> I'm going to assume you know what this channel is about :P
04:06:44 <elliott> wittykitty: Your dictionary might not take into account the fact that freenode is primarily computing-related topics :)
04:06:57 <elliott> This channel is about esoteric programming langauges, but it's almost never on topic.
04:07:06 <elliott> Sgeo: picolisp just has fixed-point
04:07:48 <wittykitty> Then if anyone starts having an active conversation on programming languages, I'll just sit back and watch quietly lol.
04:08:07 <elliott> but that's happening right now :D
04:08:38 <Sgeo> ...brackets are super parentheses
04:08:50 <Sgeo> I don't know if that will make code uncomfortably readable, or readable
04:09:00 <Sgeo> erm, uncomfortably unreadable
04:09:17 <monqy> what is a super parenthesis
04:09:20 <elliott> Ceiling kitty is watching you talk about programming languages.
04:09:36 <elliott> monqy: parentheses that save the world
04:09:43 <elliott> Sgeo: afaict, nobody uses ]
04:10:02 <Sgeo> monqy, ((((] # That ] closes those parens
04:10:11 <elliott> it's pretty obvious when it'd be used though, i.e. at the end of definitions and nowhere else
04:10:16 <elliott> and i doubt most people count the parens there
04:10:19 <elliott> yeah it is pretty gross :)
04:10:25 <elliott> none of the example code uses it though so whatever
04:10:35 <monqy> I let vim do my paren counting
04:11:55 <monqy> I don't think I'd be comfortable with ] at all; I imagine it would feel rather unbalanced
04:12:18 <Sgeo> Why does PicoLisp contain a crappy crippled vi clone?
04:12:53 <elliott> Sgeo: it's not really crappy or crippled?
04:13:06 <elliott> vi (not vim) is a very small piece of software, they just wrote their own tuned for their language.
04:13:11 <elliott> I suspect it does the "x" as underlined x thing :)
04:13:20 <elliott> besides, it's a good show-off of ncurses, etc. capability.
04:13:20 <monqy> paren counting for ]
04:13:40 <elliott> seriously though, i've never heard of ] before now, and i've read quite a bit of picolisp code
04:13:50 <elliott> well not that much. but a bit!
04:13:54 <elliott> ok i really need to sleep.
04:14:03 <elliott> Sgeo: btw scheme 9 from empty space also has a "crappy crippled" vi clone :)
04:18:45 <Sgeo> I have to know: Is there a reason PicoLisp varargs act as though there could be a potentially infinite number of passed args?
04:18:58 <Sgeo> It's not a list, it's functions to get the current or next argument
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04:53:37 <Sgeo> "If a path starts with an at-mark ('@'), the rest (without the '@') is taken as the name of a Lisp function to be called. All arguments following the question mark are passed to that function."
04:53:53 <Sgeo> Uh, I'm going to go ahead and _not_ use PicoLisp for public-facing websites
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05:18:19 <newsham> oerjan: ick at the overuse of pl, but otherwise "neat"
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08:14:12 <monqy> new sham / news ham
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08:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> 21:57:15: <elliott> looks like there's about 25 crats too
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09:05:54 <cheater_> yo patashu, patashu. oh he's gone
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10:32:48 <Ilari> Latest rumour on APNIC: Those 523 008 addresses are gone now. No information on possible returns/revocations.
10:33:34 <ais523> what do you think will happen in Asia as a result? business mostly as usual, but getting steadily worse as time goes on? mass hysteria? somewhere in between?
10:34:57 <Ilari> Of course, there are some large temp allocations that will get released eventually.
10:35:55 <Ilari> AFAIK, there's even a such /10(!). Of course, such blocks would get gobbled up fast when returned.
10:37:01 <Ilari> It will be intersting to see the APNIC delegated-extended file for today when it appears in about 5 hours.
10:38:50 <Ilari> Huston estimate appears to be 2 days to depletion (depletion may already happened).
10:40:39 <Ilari> Heh, this depletion widget's estimate of APNIC address space usage is about 100 addresses per second. :-)
10:48:34 <Ilari> I just realized that the security problems with external Javashit frameworks are a good bit worse than I previously thought. :-/
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13:51:20 <Ilari> APNIC delegated-exteneded should be out in about one and half hours. :-)
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15:17:58 <Vorpal> <Ilari> APNIC delegated-exteneded should be out in about one and half hours. :-) <-- hm?
15:18:43 <Vorpal> what is delegated-extended?
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15:20:03 <ais523> Vorpal: a file that will incidentally reveal whether APNIC has completely run out yet
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15:20:35 <Vorpal> ais523, ah. So what is its main purpose then?
15:21:15 <ais523> I think it lists who owns which prefixes or something like that, but am not sure of the details
15:21:25 <Vorpal> ais523, do you have native ipv6 yet btw?
15:21:26 <cpressey> oh yeah, it's around that day today isn't it
15:21:28 <ais523> as in, the "resellers" who handle the small allocations for APNIC
15:21:31 <ais523> and no, I don't tihnk so
15:21:44 <ais523> not on either of my borrowed connections
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15:22:18 <Vorpal> ais523, sometimes there are misconfigured laptops on the university wlan that broadcasts ipv6 tunnels
15:22:31 <Vorpal> as in, broadcast that they are ipv6 routers
15:22:39 <ais523> or are they just lying?
15:22:46 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 16k+8k to Australia, 35x2k+120x1k+240x512+707x256 to China, /32+/48 to India.
15:22:52 <Vorpal> ais523, well, I tested connecting using one to kame, worked
15:23:03 <Vorpal> of course, their uptime is pretty unreliable
15:23:19 <Vorpal> Ilari, so are they out yet?
15:23:45 <Ilari> Only addresses listed available are in the final 103/8 block, so yes.
15:24:02 <Vorpal> also what? 707 /24 to China?
15:24:24 <Vorpal> how did they end up with spread out /24 in the first place?
15:24:59 <Ilari> Apparently that stuff to china is a single allocation (I didn't check). All those 1 102 fragments that is.
15:25:47 <Ilari> Oops, that should be /32+2x/48 to India.
15:26:00 <Vorpal> Ilari, you mean like one continuous range, but that doesn't fit to a CIDR?
15:26:45 <Vorpal> Ilari, okay, that raises the question again. How did they end up with spread out /24s in various places...
15:27:14 <Vorpal> I mean, what reason would a RIR have to end up fragmenting it at that level?
15:27:28 <Ilari> Like 1.0.1.x, 1.1.0.x, etc...
15:27:48 <Ilari> Numerious sizes of blocks to allocate.
15:28:07 <Vorpal> Ilari, I thought it was Africa that got the 1.0.0.0/8 ?
15:28:09 <Ilari> And 1/8 having /24s too contaminated to use doesn't help any.
15:28:20 <Ilari> No, it was APNIC that got 1/8.
15:29:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, aren't those actually contaminated /32 in some cases? Like 1.2.3.4. It seems less likely that, for example, 1.2.3.83 would be as contaminated
15:29:50 <Vorpal> but I guess handing out sub-/24 would be annoying
15:30:12 <Ilari> IIRC, only RIR that does that is RIPE NCC.
15:30:29 <Vorpal> Ilari, RIPE hands out sub-/24? Wow
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15:30:59 <Vorpal> speaking of which, what is the estimates for RIPE depletion?
15:31:18 <Vorpal> Isn't it likely to be next?
15:31:23 <Ilari> 1 039 093 /32s remaining (514 806 to allocate to reach half-block threshold).
15:31:42 <Ilari> Yes, RIPE is likely next. They themselves say "this year".
15:31:45 <Vorpal> Ilari, so, which month does that put us in?
15:32:31 <Vorpal> I'm happy to have a ipv6 tunnel now, that is all I can say. And that the ISPs suck.
15:32:38 <Ilari> I haven't seen quality estimates. Yes, Lagerholm's site has estimates, but those RIR depletion estimates seems way out there.
15:33:08 <Vorpal> Ilari, so I guess now, the attention will turn from APNIC to RIPE NCC?
15:33:36 <Ilari> Guess so. Also interesting to follow IPv6 allocation rates at APNIC.
15:38:20 <Ilari> Today some idiots made article titled "Why you shouldn't worry about switching to IPv6 now". Nice to make article like that on RIR X-day.
15:39:58 <Ilari> How that reminds me of Bagdad Bob? :-)
15:40:23 <Ilari> Iraqi information minister.
15:40:48 <Vorpal> hm okay, what happened there then?
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15:41:20 <Vorpal> btw I think that the allocation policy used for ipv6 is utterly stupid.
15:41:52 <Vorpal> something between a /48 and a /64 would be best for end user allocation.
15:42:25 <Vorpal> so okay, you want stateless auto config, maybe you want multiple subnets. But something like a /56 or so would work fine...
15:44:15 <cpressey> prime numbers are best, of course
15:44:23 <Ilari> All IPv6 allocations from all RIRs combined wouldn't bring even one RIR to half-block threshold (and IIRC not even 3x that amount).
15:46:40 <Vorpal> oh iwc comic number 3000 today. Heh.
15:47:26 <Ilari> Potaroo.net says /14.8219 (636934199443459 /64s). Slightly old info (no todays allocations), but.
15:49:07 <Vorpal> Ilari, so a total of 636934199443459 /64s allocated. Okay. Any stats on how many separate allocations make up that?
15:49:54 <Ilari> Newest APNIC figures: /17.2323 (119808693370883 /64s).
15:49:56 <Vorpal> since I have a /48 for my tunnel, measuring in /64s might not be that sane. I use exactly one /64 in it
15:51:15 <Ilari> Okay, looking up how many individual allocations make up that world figure. For APNIC, it is 1 748 allocations.
15:52:17 <Vorpal> Ilari, a LOT less in other words. Though I guess they are /32s to LIRs mostly
15:52:48 <Vorpal> and I suspect finding how many end user allocations there are would be tricky, for a start how do you define an end user.
15:52:52 <Ilari> There are total of 1492 member IDs. 1400 of those only have one single block.
15:53:16 <Ilari> ... Member IDs with IPv6 allocations, that is.
15:53:48 <Ilari> Of course, Allocations to LIR are just shown as single allocation with no substructure.
15:55:29 <Ilari> 7777 IPv6 allocations worldwide (but that doesn't include ones done today).
15:56:14 <Vorpal> Ilari, it would be more interesting to look on LIR level I guess. Though a lot more work.
15:56:16 <Ilari> Some members have multiple blocks. I guess those are mostly LIRs.
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15:56:42 <Vorpal> Ilari, wait a second, are there some entities that aren't LIRs that ask RIRs for IPs?
15:56:53 <Ilari> I don't know how to get such data. Looking at how much that BR LIR that has IPv6 /16(!) has allocated could be interesting.
15:57:33 <Vorpal> Ilari, I thought IANA allocated for RIRs, which allocated for LIRs, which allocated for everyone else?
15:57:52 <Vorpal> (where everyone else would be ISPs mostly, possibly some large companies too)
15:58:28 <Ilari> I think some ISPs and even companies allocate directly from RIR.
15:58:59 <Vorpal> Ilari, what are the LIRs for then?
15:59:11 <Ilari> Due to APNIC pricing, not probably done a lot in that region, but even some private individuals have address space obtained from RIR.
16:00:16 <Ilari> Oh, and not just address space, also a ASN.
16:00:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, so, has APNIC issued any press release or such about this depletion?
16:01:00 <Vorpal> Ilari, you mean, that there is some private individual who got an ASN from a RIR?
16:01:49 <Vorpal> Ilari, if so I wonder why. The only reason I can think of would be multi-homing. But that seems somewhat absurd still.
16:02:10 <Ilari> Yeah, private individual with ASN. I haven't seen such press release yet.
16:02:48 <Vorpal> Ilari, any info on who that person is?
16:03:47 <Ilari> At least Owen DeLong has ASN + PI space from ARIN. Probably others as well.
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16:04:22 <Ilari> Provoder Independent
16:05:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, is there any risk of running out of ASNs btw?
16:06:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
16:06:56 <Ilari> I don't think there is, especially since ASN space expansion gave 4 billion new free ASNs.
16:07:12 <Vorpal> Ilari, that sounds like IPv4 size heh
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16:10:32 <Ilari> There are (slightly old info) 12262 legacy ASNs available. Estimated depletion in 2013.
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16:11:21 <Vorpal> Ilari, how well upgraded is the infrastructure for non-legacy ASNs?
16:11:51 <Ilari> No idea really. One can also work around lack of equipement support for 32-bit ASNs.
16:12:05 <Ilari> (one can configure static routes)
16:15:05 <Ilari> I actually have one manually configured IPv6 route here: One /48 is routed to eth0.
16:16:35 <Vorpal> Ilari, well yes I have one too, because this computer acts as a router for the rest of the network
16:17:47 <Ilari> There's also one /128 automatically configured route within that /48 pointing to loopback (routes always operate on "longest-match").
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16:18:46 <Ilari> So /128 is preferred over /48 if both match.
16:25:18 <Vorpal> Ilari, actually I have two manual routes it seems like. One for the /64 I use. One for null-routing the rest of the /48
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16:30:45 <Ilari> I just send the entiere block to LAN, without nullrouting anything.
16:40:30 <Vorpal> Ilari, well, since I use stateless autoconfig, nothing except that /64 will actually be used
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16:47:46 <Ilari> Nullrouting might be good to avoid ping-pong and neighbor cache DOSes, but I don't think there is going to be ping-pong from sending extra traffic to LAN.
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16:53:06 <Vorpal> Ilari, seems more prudent to null route unused space
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16:53:38 <Vorpal> Ilari, the main issue I found was getting the routing computer to be accessible over ipv6. That took some work
16:53:59 <Vorpal> well, I guess once you know about it...
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17:03:38 <cheater_> i have finally found out what elliott's last name means
17:03:39 <cheater_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd
17:03:55 <cheater_> HURD is a mutually recursive acronym, standing for HIRD of Unix-replacing daemons, where HIRD stands for HURD of interfaces representing depth.
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17:30:33 <Ilari> Hah, now the shown depletion rate is about 200 addresses per second.
17:31:52 <Ilari> (For APNIC, except that RIR has already been depleted).
17:33:44 <Sgeo> "We chose this example by noting that services are always monadic (i.e., taking a single argument instead of a tuple of arguments)
17:33:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:34:04 <Sgeo> My mind broke for two seconds, before I realized I overdosed on Haskell
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17:54:20 <newsham> its amusing that gnu spent more effort coming up with a retarded name for hurd than it did in writing the software
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17:56:55 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Hah, now the shown depletion rate is about 200 addresses per second. <-- so it is pretty much fake then?
17:57:20 <Ilari> Yeah, the address countdown is.
17:57:43 <Ilari> Its showing APNIC at 1 block out of 47.
18:01:05 <newsham> --- orange.kame.net ping6 statistics ---
18:01:05 <newsham> 2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
18:01:05 <newsham> round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 210.903/210.904/210.904/0.000 ms
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18:05:16 <newsham> what is online collaborative fiction? just a common theme to inspire art works? or some kinda online game?
18:08:49 <newsham> reusing the same words isnt helping myunderstnading :)
18:09:42 <olsner> it's about collaborating online
18:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Blech, the initiator of it is a libertarian eurosceptic.
18:10:22 <ais523> Ilari: hmm, APNIC is definitely depleted, then?
18:11:05 <newsham> is it a combination of people working on independant scifi but collaborating on a general framework and theme?
18:11:18 <olsner> "multi-authored online science fiction world-building project"
18:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure, they have a wiki-y thing that serves as a reference.
18:12:17 <Ilari> Well, there can be blocks outside 103/8 that are released back to available, but at least for time being, no addresses outside the final /8 to allocate.
18:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Given the general quality of writing in such projects, I refuse to read the actual fiction.
18:12:44 <newsham> ok, so it seems nobody here is quite exactly sure what it is.. next question -- do the people participating know what ti is?
18:12:46 <Vorpal> Ilari, oh, so the final /8 is still left?
18:12:50 <newsham> or is the idea to be so vague as to ensure success? :)
18:13:10 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I quite like SCP though, which probably counts as online collaborative fiction too
18:13:43 <Ilari> Yeah, but allocations from the final /8 are much more restricted than previously.
18:15:27 <newsham> i love that nobody bothered to stop nortel selling address blocks during bankruptcy
18:15:37 <newsham> i guess the market wont be entirely a black one
18:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I just read the TV Tropes entry and skimmed the reference site.
18:16:54 <olsner> admit it: you write online collaborative fiction!
18:22:32 <Gregor> And are a libertarian euroskeptic.
18:22:59 <newsham> what is a euroskeptic skeptical about?
18:24:15 <newsham> i'm pretty sure europe exists.
18:24:18 <newsham> or do you mean the currency?
18:24:33 <Gregor> newsham: Ha, you actually believe Europe exists?
18:24:37 <Gregor> People believe such silly lies.
18:24:39 <olsner> europe exists? I'm not so sure, I haven't seen it
18:24:47 <Gregor> Also the world is flat btw.
18:24:51 <Vorpal> newsham, are you sure?
18:24:56 <newsham> i went to paris, berlin, prague and vienna. or at least thats what they want you to believe.
18:25:09 <Gregor> newsham: That's what they want YOU to believe!
18:25:22 <Gregor> Paris is actually just Hoboken.
18:25:33 <newsham> that would explain the disdain for americans
18:25:34 <olsner> you might have gone to a place called paris, BUT: does that mean you were in europe?
18:25:40 <Vorpal> newsham, same principle as the sets in Holy Wood. Just somewhat more detailed on the backside
18:26:14 <oklopol> i'm like to Holy Wood YOUR backside
18:30:20 <Phantom_Hoover> [19:22] <newsham> what is a euroskeptic skeptical about?
18:30:23 <olsner> aw crap, redirects will not work perfectly either... browsers are way too sensible, they will have limits on the number of redirects they follow
18:32:15 <olsner> well, that saves me the trouble of implementing it, I guess
18:33:31 <Vorpal> olsner, of implementing what?
18:33:50 <oklopol> uk's membership for the eu
18:33:59 <olsner> Vorpal: changing my thue to mod_rewrite compiler to do redirects instead of rewriting
18:36:08 <olsner> plus, I'm not even sure if redirects actually make apache start a new "request", or if the old one keeps handling the redirected-to url
18:36:25 <olsner> (the whole problem is that apache never frees any memory while handling a request)
18:37:32 <fizzie> Well, the client at least sends a whole new request; it would be most logical for Apache to treat it as a completely new thing too.
18:38:54 <fizzie> But there is the limit of redirections clients follow, I think 20 is a common number for that.
18:40:29 <ais523> I thought it was 8 or so
18:41:14 <fizzie> Firefox (at least this one; it's network.http.redirection-limit in about:config) and wget default to 20, curl defaults to 50.
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18:49:45 <Gregor> Well then you should stop stabbing them. Then they would stop being so bloody AND (probably) stop clamoring.
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19:12:24 * Sgeo sees some PicoLisp code
19:12:25 <Sgeo> (de *Straight `west `east `south `north)
19:12:38 <Sgeo> That's... in retrospect.. sensible
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19:19:36 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/machine/fractran2.py
19:19:59 <newsham> done with vector of storage cells and test/decr/add ops instead of fractions
19:21:12 <newsham> has anyone written a compiler for generating fractrans programs from something higher level?
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19:26:51 <olsner> probably cheating! but "curl -L --max-redirs 200000 URL" works fine, hopefully this will print "hello world" in a while
19:27:26 <olsner> though going by the access logs, the brainfuck program hasn't even printed 'h' yet
19:28:47 <olsner> and it's only using about 1/100th of the bandwidth... I guess it's latency limited
19:29:50 <olsner> I think I should optimize it a bit so every step doesn't require a redirect
19:32:29 <Gregor> OK, what in blue blazes are you doing with some HTTP-redirect-based BF interpreter or some such nonsense? :P
19:32:57 <olsner> Gregor: no, not a BF interpreter... a Thue interpreter :)
19:33:23 <olsner> it's just that my favourite example Thue program is a BF interpreter
19:33:32 <olsner> and my favourite example BF program is hello world
19:33:35 <Gregor> So it does one step of reduction then redirects the browser?
19:33:54 <Gregor> Using the HTTP Location: header I assume?
19:33:59 <olsner> it used to try to do all steps as internal redirects, but that just makes apache explode
19:34:38 <Gregor> If you want it not to boink browsers, you should either use <meta> refresh (which will still boink browsers but they may not notice :P ) or JS document.location.href = "whatever"
19:37:53 <olsner> now it printed something: 1000001_1011011_1100010_1100010_1100101_11101_1010000_1100101_1101000_1100010_1011010_11110_1001_ :D
19:38:44 <newsham> i was thinking that too, gregor, but disadvantage is that you couldnt use curl
19:39:17 <olsner> Gregor: well, sure, but that's annoying, then I have to redirect to a script or something that outputs an actual response
19:39:51 <olsner> granted, I do that at the end to print the result, but only at the end and only once
19:44:37 <Gregor> olsner: I'm trying to decide in what universe you're operating where putting a Location: header is easy but having a response below that is hard ...
19:45:22 <olsner> hmm, that output definitely isn't "hello world", it starts with "A[bbe"
19:45:50 <olsner> Gregor: the universe of mod_rewrite
19:46:42 <Gregor> olsner: OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhh
19:46:48 <Gregor> Good lawd, that's terrifying X-D
19:47:34 <olsner> Gregor: it involves a compiler written in sed
19:47:57 <olsner> (it's a trivial compiler, but still it's a compiler. technically.)
19:52:17 <newsham> i wonder if esoteric programming languages spike in popularity during a recession
19:55:15 <olsner> hmm, the BF program is correct at least... I wonder if the bf interpreter is what's wrong
19:56:03 <olsner> it could be something evil like accidentally doing replacements in the output
19:56:34 <Ilari> In final 30 days, APNIC burned through 40 710 400 addresses (2.427 blocks).
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19:57:50 <Gregor> Ilari: RIPE challenged them to a race to the finish.
19:58:18 <olsner> hmm... has anyone built a sed in sed?
19:58:34 <Gregor> I assume you mean in multistep-sed?
19:59:31 <Gregor> As in, applying sed repeatedly to reach a fixed point or other terminal condition.
19:59:51 <olsner> hmm, sounds like cheating
20:00:26 <Gregor> I'm not sure if it's powerful enough without, although it certainly could be, it's got a lot of Darke Artse I never really use :P
20:00:45 <fizzie> It has conditional branching and all, I'm pretty sure you can do ~anything.
20:01:22 <fizzie> Test. Branch to the : command verb bearing the label if any substitutions have been made since the most recent reading of an input line or execution of a t. If label is not specified, branch to the end of the script."
20:01:54 <olsner> there's only one input though (stdin), so there'd have to be some magic involved to get the sed script into your interpreter and also get the input file/stream
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20:02:45 <Gregor> fizzie: Yowza, that's not even a conditional /block/, it's a conditional /goto/.
20:02:48 <Gregor> Yeah, with that, probably TC.
20:02:51 <olsner> maybe one of the gnu extensions can be used to treat the first file as the script, and remaining files as input, encoding the whole script and its hold space inside hold space
20:03:07 <fizzie> olsner: GNU sed can use the 'e' command to pipe input from shell to the pattern space.
20:03:34 <fizzie> (Or evaluate whatever's in the pattern space.)
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20:04:30 <olsner> Gregor: I think it's obviously TC since it can implement any kind of string rewriting... if you have infinite memory, that is
20:04:40 <fizzie> Even POSIX sed has the 'r' command to read multiple files, but I guess it doesn't count since it's just "read and write directly to stdout", you can't really do much with it.
20:05:11 <Gregor> olsner: Single-step string rewriting without recursion or iteration is not TC.
20:05:19 <Gregor> olsner: It was the iteration I didn't know it had.
20:05:29 <olsner> ah, right, you can put sed in a loop yes
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20:07:27 <olsner> fizzie: using 'e' is probably cheating :)
20:07:52 <fizzie> Well, combining program and input in one file has long traditions too.
20:07:54 <Ilari> Annoucement from APNIC Secretariat that they are in phase three exhaustion.
20:08:21 <Gregor> Phase three is when the ritual suicide starts, right?
20:08:23 <olsner> if making a real challenge out of it I think you'd only be allowed to use e to implement the e command :)
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20:12:27 <fizzie> olsner: Regarding your mod-rewrite and "I don't want to make a script" thing: how about Location:-redirecting into a data: URL which contains a HTML page with <meta>/javascript redirection?
20:13:12 <olsner> fizzie: ooh, that's a good idea!
20:13:43 <fizzie> For some rather strange values of "good", I guess.
20:15:43 <olsner> it would mean that you never have to leave the safe and sane environment of URL rewriting and redirection
20:16:01 <olsner> if redirection to data: url:s works as it should, that is
20:19:49 <newsham> my ip addresses are exhausted today.
20:20:37 <fizzie> If not, you can always just redirect to a static .html file which takes the query string and location.href='s that; then the non-mod_rewrite part is at least quite minimal. (I don't really know how well browsers catch redirect loops when it comes to non-HTTP-level redirecting.)
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20:34:49 <olsner> haha, this is only 25% slower than the python implementation of thue
20:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I need to invent something to make that the slogan of.
20:36:28 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: this is by doing one http request per rewrite, instead of just doing some string replacement in python
20:37:01 <Phantom_Hoover> LUDICROUSLY INEFFICIENT HTTP: only 25% slower than Python!
20:37:40 <olsner> my implementation isn't particularly optimized though, I might be able to even the odds a bit
20:40:57 <fizzie> Python: providing up to 20% speedups for existing snail-based solutions.
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20:45:39 <Gregor> Today I: Accidentally utterly broke my GRUB install, then fixed it from Mac OS X by booting with my ext partition as a HD in qemu with a GNU/Linux boot CD.
20:47:06 <olsner> Angus "Gregor" MacGyver
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20:49:33 <newsham> although them giving out all their customers information isnt helping
20:50:21 <Gregor> Does vmware even allow you to give an arbitrary file (in this case, in fact, a block device) as a hard disk?
20:50:29 <newsham> it does. thankfully my employer did the exchange.
20:50:36 <newsham> you can use vmware player for free.
20:50:44 <newsham> which isnt too bad if you know how to edit the config files
20:51:00 <newsham> gregor: you can use block devs, yes.. arbitrary files, no.
20:51:27 <fizzie> I do the "fetch files from a Linux partition on a dual-boot system when in Windows" operation using VirtualBox, though VirtualBox's way of configuring a "pass-through" style raw disk partition is quite horrible.
20:52:51 <fizzie> You need to do something like "vboxmanage internalcommands createrawvmdk -filename blah.vmdk -rawdisk \\.\PhysicalDrive0" to make a vmware .vmdk file for the raw disk; then that .vmdk file can be attached with the VirtualBox GUI.
20:54:39 <fizzie> As far as I know, no. (At least in the open-sores edition... though I guess that's quite close to the commercial one nowadays.)
20:55:09 <olsner> "open-sores" :D I don't think I've seen that pun before
20:55:15 <olsner> though it's so obvious in hindsight
20:55:20 <newsham> i thought you were the pun master.
20:55:21 <Gregor> FIZZIE STOLE IT FROM FOXTROT 'CUZ HE'S A LOSER
20:55:39 <newsham> i'm questioning your pun credentials
20:55:51 <fizzie> oerjan's the one with terrible puns.
20:56:07 * Gregor : Pun free since twenty-oh-three.
20:56:28 <newsham> he who would pun would pick a pocket.
20:56:41 <olsner> Gregor: Pun free fun spree?
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21:14:16 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Today I: Accidentally utterly broke my GRUB install, then fixed it from Mac OS X by booting with my ext partition as a HD in qemu with a GNU/Linux boot CD. <-- how did you break it?
21:14:27 <Vorpal> also doing it with a plain boot cd would have worked just as well
21:15:29 <Vorpal> Gregor, at least grub 1 used to be ridiculously hard to break
21:15:34 <Vorpal> I haven't used grub 2 much yet
21:15:52 <olsner> it was much easier in the lilo days
21:15:53 <Vorpal> (when it comes to bootloaders I'm definitely "don't replace what works")
21:16:59 <Vorpal> olsner, heck I have a software RAID 1 setup. I can boot from either disk. Trivial to make it work with grub. Just install from grub shell giving different root arguments for the different disks
21:17:08 <Vorpal> err, that is root maps I think
21:17:51 <olsner> it's faster than python now, by 15%
21:17:55 <Vorpal> olsner, another good thing with grub 1 is that it doesn't update! Means no annoying "gah I hope this doesn't break" moments
21:18:11 <Vorpal> olsner, how insane. Is that a very bad implementation in python?
21:18:18 <Vorpal> yes I know python is horribly slow
21:18:29 <Vorpal> but it shouldn't be slower than doing it by TCP requests
21:18:51 <Vorpal> slower than mod_rewrite. Sure.
21:18:55 <olsner> well, I don't think it's supposed to be fast, the implementation in python
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21:19:29 <olsner> but really, 1) find string, 2) replace ... not too many opportunities for slowing things down
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21:20:04 <Vorpal> wtf. I just got a notification pop up. With the title of the program, and it's icon. But no message.
21:20:47 <Vorpal> great, part 5 download finished hours before part 4 will be done
21:20:57 <olsner> oh, and there's a bug in this somewhere, Hello in "Hello World!" comes out as "A[bbe
21:21:18 <Vorpal> olsner, isn't that rot-15?
21:21:56 <Vorpal> olsner, that looks to me like the code point simply is offset
21:23:58 <newsham> > map (chr.(+10).ord) "A[bbe"
21:24:48 <oerjan> 20:37:47: <Phantom_Hoover> A snail: only 25% slower than Python.
21:24:48 <oerjan> 20:40:57: <fizzie> Python: providing up to 20% speedups for existing snail-based solutions.
21:28:02 <olsner> the full wrong output is: 1000001_1011011_1100010_1100010_1100101_11101_1010000_1100101_1101000_1100010_1011010_11110_1001_
21:28:15 <olsner> in _-delimited binary :)
21:30:52 <olsner> hmm, it seems to be off by about 10%
21:31:18 <olsner> 15% faster, 10% less accurate
21:33:20 <oerjan> hm it would appear comments on a postcard did not update today
21:35:30 <fizzie> oerjan: If Python takes 1 second to do a thing, then the snail (being 25% slower) will take 1.25*1s = 1.25s, and the speedup when switching from the snail architecture to Python is then (1.25-1)/1.25 = 20%.
21:37:16 <fizzie> How dare I be factual, eh?
21:37:31 <oerjan> well that _is_ just one interpretation.
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21:38:15 <oerjan> the other is, if python does 4 things per second, then the snail (being 25% slower) will do 3. etc.
21:41:42 <newsham> how is 1 + .25 = 25% slower?
21:42:04 <newsham> that sounds exactly right to me
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21:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I'm tired with my superiority complex failing to activate on Redditors.
21:48:03 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: btw, I beat python by 15% in a newer benchmark
21:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I fail to notice that many of them are quite clearly people for whom I would ordinarily have nothing but contempt.
21:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner: SLIGHTLY LESS INEFFICIENT HTTP: only 15% slower than Python!
21:49:14 <olsner> (but the result is 10% wrong: as in the difference between each output character and the actual result is around 10% of the ascii code of the correct character)
21:49:27 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: no no, *faster* than python
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21:52:26 <olsner> I guess that means the last 10% of "Hello World!" will be the hardest
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22:05:49 <oerjan> how do you manage to get 10% off characters :D
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22:41:47 <Vorpal> <olsner> I guess that means the last 10% of "Hello World!" will be the hardest <-- huh?
22:42:25 <Vorpal> olsner, so... not even constant offset?
22:43:36 <Vorpal> err, someone spoke, just as I pressed power button on the monitor. How rude.
22:44:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is the madness you are talking about?
22:44:22 <oerjan> that 10% off Hello World
22:45:38 <oerjan> the logs imply something about bf in thue in mod_rewrite
22:45:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, well... 'z'- 10% would be rather different than '1'-10% for example (weird notation I know)
22:45:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh yes he is doing thue in mod_rewrite I know
22:46:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, I missed the bit about bf
22:46:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh and it is faster than some python thue implementation
22:46:23 <oerjan> but he didn't write the bf in thue did he...
22:46:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, maybe he used such a program for testing?
22:47:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, or are you saying bf in thue is new?
22:47:49 <oerjan> oh mod_rewrite is a kind of regexp rewriting language?
22:48:05 <oerjan> i'm just wondering where the 10% off thing would creep in...
22:48:13 <Vorpal> oerjan, mod_rewrite is a module for the apache web server that allows you to rewrite the URLs based on regexp yes
22:48:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, or redirect too
22:48:30 <oerjan> yeah but i guess olsner is treating it as an esolang...
22:48:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, where "rewrite" means "redirect behind the scenes, never tell the browser"
22:48:59 * oerjan has had ideas of implementing thue in /// as well
22:49:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, do it 20% faster than the python implementation!
22:49:23 <oerjan> or Itflabtijtslwi for input
22:49:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, how long does it take for you to write out that name?
22:49:49 <oerjan> but i keep stopping at the point where i realize thue has _worse_ IO than Itflabtijtslwi
22:50:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, shouldn't that make it easier?
22:50:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: well this time Itflabti came automatically and then i had to recall the acronym
22:51:00 <oerjan> easier maybe, but mainly it makes thue somehow less interesting
22:51:17 <oerjan> because it isn't BF IO-complete as you call it
22:51:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, well, BF-complete is quite a useful baseline. I think it was ehird who invented the term.
22:51:56 <Vorpal> It certainly wasn't me who invented it.
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22:52:18 <Vorpal> wait, what is the English idiom?
22:52:26 <oerjan> of the devil, i believe
22:52:28 <Vorpal> "Tala om trollen" in Swedish
22:52:47 <oerjan> "Når man snakker om sola" in norwegian
22:53:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, in Swedish I think the end is "så står de på förstutrappen" (I have no clue how to spell that last word...)
22:53:49 <Vorpal> but people often seem to cut idioms in half in Swedish.
22:54:21 <oerjan> förstutrappen looks logical to me, but i may not know the correct spelling of the individual parts
22:54:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh, it's "När man talar om trollet så står det i farstun" says wikipedia.
22:54:41 <oerjan> and yeah the "så skinner den" part is frequently left out in norwegian too
22:54:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, I'm pretty sure I heard it in plural form in Swedish
22:54:59 <Vorpal> (trollen, not trollet)
22:55:10 <Vorpal> could be local variations I guess
22:55:21 <Vorpal> oh it mentions that too
22:55:38 <fizzie> "Siinä paha missä mainitaan" in Finnish; lit. "there the evil where it was mentioned" or some-such.
22:56:01 <Vorpal> wait a second. This give us an evility scale
22:56:12 <Vorpal> I would say: Norwegian - Swedish - Finnish & English
22:56:22 <Vorpal> see? sun, troll, devil/evil
22:56:33 <Vorpal> I wonder what implications this have (if any)
22:58:35 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_of_the_devil is quite interesting. Includes a summary of different languages
22:58:59 <oerjan> maybe scandinavians of old times didn't like to mention the devil. especially if they believed the idiom...
22:59:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, I should try talking about the sun the next time it starts raining and I forgot my umbrella
22:59:34 <oerjan> sadly i don't think it works that way
22:59:39 <Vorpal> it still shines. Behind the clouds.
22:59:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes it does. It is the clouds that don't
22:59:54 <oerjan> over skyene er himmelen alltid blå
22:59:57 <elliott> 17:54:20: <newsham> its amusing that gnu spent more effort coming up with a retarded name for hurd than it did in writing the software
22:59:57 <elliott> *sniff* the newbie insults my name indirectly *sniff*
23:00:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, or at the current time point, på andra sidan planeten.
23:01:56 <oerjan> elliott: no no no, it's the mixing of "hird" with "turd" that is retarded
23:02:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so is your mom
23:02:34 <oerjan> elliott: also we have already established he's a sham
23:03:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, already? Considering how new he is here.
23:03:18 <oerjan> elliott: did i just whoosh Vorpal or not?
23:03:31 <elliott> i'm not sure, my Vorpal policy is a batch one
23:03:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, come on, it shouldn't be required to point out...
23:03:58 <oerjan> Vorpal: well i intended that pun too
23:04:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, I wasn't here then
23:04:26 <Vorpal> and I don't read logs apart from highlights
23:04:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: my log reading is a bit variable too
23:05:32 * oerjan is a little worried that several iwc threads seem to be coming to a conclusion
23:05:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway, what do I have to do to make puns like that clear? <pun></pun> would kind of cut the edge off
23:05:51 <oerjan> it kindles my fear that he'll stop when he comes to the calvin & hobbes point
23:05:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, also comic 3000
23:06:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, that would be sad. What about espionage though?
23:06:23 <oerjan> the C&H is more important, besides they have not concluded completely yet
23:06:36 <elliott> 18:36:08: <olsner> plus, I'm not even sure if redirects actually make apache start a new "request", or if the old one keeps handling the redirected-to url
23:06:36 <elliott> 18:36:25: <olsner> (the whole problem is that apache never frees any memory while handling a request)
23:06:42 <elliott> of course they do, since http is stateless
23:06:59 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:07:11 <oerjan> Vorpal: DMM as a wellknown stated goal of reaching the same number of comics as calvin & hobbes did. three thousand something.
23:07:33 <Vorpal> elliott, Connection: Keep-Alive
23:07:41 <oerjan> afaik he has never said anything about stopping then, though
23:07:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, it would be terrible if he did
23:08:24 -!- elliott has joined.
23:08:47 <oerjan> <elliott> i'm not sure, my Vorpal policy is a batch one <-- you mean you don't try to judge individual utterances?
23:08:47 <Vorpal> anyway if apache uses a process or thread per TCP connection, and Connection: Keep-Alive is used, it is quite possible, that the statelessness does not come into play
23:09:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, I was wondering a bit about that too
23:09:28 <Gregor> Oh maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, this NanoKONTROL is definitely going to drive me insane and/or improve my digital music.
23:09:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: also above, the pun was clear enough but i was assuming you understood i intended it which meant it was somewhat unclassy to say the rest explicitly
23:10:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, also I needed to do three re-takes on the word "NanoKONTROL", I kept reading "NanoKERNE<wait what>" several times
23:10:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, err what? I was just continuing your pun?
23:10:59 <elliott> Gregor is going to be playing TRANCE IN CLUBS ANY SECOND NOW THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU BECOME DIGITAL
23:11:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh. What does it do?
23:12:30 <oerjan> Vorpal: i was going for an Incredibly Lazy Pun (i was going to link tvtropes but the page seems to be missing?)
23:12:34 <Gregor> Vorpal: It has knobs and dials, and sends MIDI control events when you knob and dial them :P
23:12:39 <elliott> 19:58:18: <olsner> hmm... has anyone built a sed in sed?
23:12:39 <elliott> 19:58:34: <Gregor> I assume you mean in multistep-sed?
23:12:40 <elliott> 19:59:13: <olsner> multistep-sed?
23:12:40 <elliott> 19:59:31: <Gregor> As in, applying sed repeatedly to reach a fixed point or other terminal condition.
23:12:40 <elliott> 19:59:51: <olsner> hmm, sounds like cheating
23:12:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and while uplink is fun, it seems to require some quick reflections, which I don't really have.
23:12:40 <elliott> 20:00:26: <Gregor> I'm not sure if it's powerful enough without, although it certainly could be, it's got a lot of Darke Artse I never really use :P
23:13:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm I don't know what that is. Could you link me? ;P
23:13:09 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, they showed that later.
23:13:16 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: It has knobs and dials, and sends MIDI control events when you knob and dial them :P <-- to what end?
23:13:20 <elliott> Gregor: I HADN'T SCROLLED DOWN TO THERE BITCH
23:13:24 <elliott> Repeated regexps are TC though (they can do BCT)
23:13:31 <elliott> I think even if your halting condition is just "output = input"
23:13:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: google links to it but tvtropes behaves as if it doesn't exist D:
23:14:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, google cache I mean
23:14:19 <Gregor> Vorpal: Well, ultimately any end you want. I'm going to hack up a quick (read: not at all quick) program to let me control tempo and velocities.
23:14:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: argh the google cache is the same, it probably has it only because it used to exist
23:14:54 <elliott> 20:45:39: <Gregor> Today I: Accidentally utterly broke my GRUB install, then fixed it from Mac OS X by booting with my ext partition as a HD in qemu with a GNU/Linux boot CD.
23:15:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.IncrediblyLazyPun
23:15:01 <elliott> Gregor: I'm gonna pick on you for "GNU/Linux" now.
23:15:43 <elliott> Or anyothercoreutils/linux :P
23:15:49 <elliott> 20:55:09: <olsner> "open-sores" :D I don't think I've seen that pun before
23:15:49 <elliott> 20:55:15: <olsner> though it's so obvious in hindsight
23:15:50 <elliott> Open sores dates back to ... uh, a long time ago.
23:15:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: ah. stealth pun then.
23:16:00 <Gregor> I try to use "GNU/Linux" whenever relevant, but I usually use a specific distro name to avoid it anyway. I've become a bit lazier but I usually only say "Linux" to mean the kernel.
23:16:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, the history is quite hideously sad
23:16:39 <Vorpal> newsham, as opposed to GNU/BSD
23:17:00 <Gregor> As opposed to not-GNU/Linux, or Debian's GNU/kFreeBSD, or ...
23:17:30 <Gregor> Suffice it to say that after being forced to use Mac OS X, and then FreeBSD, I learned how much I wurve the GNU userland :P
23:18:06 <newsham> heh, debian w/ freebsd.. amusing.
23:18:34 <oerjan> Vorpal: a victim of people going by what the title feels like meaning :(
23:18:54 <elliott> Gregor: IMO GNU/Linux is more "insulting" (FSvery-weakVO insulting) than Linux.
23:19:12 <elliott> Linux is in common usage to refer to an operating system with Linux as the kernel, but GNU/Linux is explicitly a list of parts, and as a list of parts it's woefully incomplete.
23:19:37 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: a victim of people going by what the title feels like meaning :( <-- I meant, not having a redirect..
23:21:54 <oerjan> Vorpal: on wikipedia that would be an obvious candidate for a disambiguation page...
23:22:10 <Gregor> (The 'X' refers to both X.org and XFCE isn't that CLEVAR!!!)
23:22:36 <Gregor> That's pronounced by saying "Linux" and then vomiting, btw.
23:22:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, that would end up insane on tvtropes though
23:23:13 <elliott> Mostly because whenever I say "Linux" I think of Linux.
23:23:19 <elliott> That's generally enough to bring up the vomit.
23:23:38 <elliott> 23:08:47: <oerjan> <elliott> i'm not sure, my Vorpal policy is a batch one <-- you mean you don't try to judge individual utterances?
23:23:42 <elliott> uh... something like that.
23:23:56 <elliott> 23:12:40: <Vorpal> elliott, oh and while uplink is fun, it seems to require some quick reflections, which I don't really have.
23:24:00 <elliott> (1) Reflections does not mean that.
23:24:06 <elliott> (2) ...What? Uplink does not require that at all.
23:24:17 <Vorpal> elliott, err, bad translations.
23:24:21 <elliott> OK, sure, you can't move the mouse incredibly slowly when you're being traced, but the solution to that is to PROXY
23:24:38 <Vorpal> elliott, even through unfriendly systems?
23:24:41 <elliott> 23:13:49: <oerjan> Vorpal: google links to it but tvtropes behaves as if it doesn't exist D:
23:24:49 <elliott> oerjan: it may have been deleted as part of the great tvtropes idiocy
23:24:56 <Vorpal> elliott, ISSUE SOLVED BELOW! READ ON!
23:25:06 <oerjan> `addquote <Gregor> I use LiGNUXFCE+apps <Gregor> That's pronounced by saying "Linux" and then vomiting, btw.
23:25:10 <HackEgo> 363) <Gregor> I use LiGNUXFCE+apps <Gregor> That's pronounced by saying "Linux" and then vomiting, btw.
23:25:35 <oerjan> elliott: actually it looks like they had a fairly good reason to split it because people kept misinterpreting the name
23:25:59 <elliott> oerjan: If the page is just gone, that's idiocy. If it's a disambig, that's fine.
23:26:00 <oerjan> s/split/rename + split/
23:26:43 <oerjan> elliott: well to a wikipedian it looks like an obvious disambig candidate but maybe Vorpal is right that wouldn't work well on tvtropes
23:26:51 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, even through unfriendly systems?
23:27:10 <Vorpal> elliott, how does that make sense
23:27:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so theoretically I could add every system listed in InterNIC to that list and tunnel through them all?
23:27:40 <Vorpal> which would be quite a chore
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23:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: IIRC you're meant to turn some hosts into shell proxy hosts, but I dunno.
23:37:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Has the storyline started for you yet?
23:37:31 <Vorpal> elliott, nah I did the tutorial basically
23:37:37 <Vorpal> elliott, besides I have the demo only
23:37:52 <elliott> Ha, it was added to the Ubuntu Software Centre last month X-D
23:38:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Ah, the demo doesn't have the storyline.
23:39:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well I couldn't find the non-demo
23:39:06 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have it?
23:39:20 <elliott> I was amazed the first time I wiped the drive of a host from the shell and then it failed to come back online, ever :)
23:40:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, I have it, as in I bought it :P
23:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I found the UI for "hacking" things in that game utterly stupid. Far too hard to use compared to a real shell with tab complete
23:40:24 <Vorpal> elliott, The implications are obvious
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23:40:31 <Vorpal> especially if the linux version
23:40:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Uplink is only $15 *shrug*
23:40:55 <Vorpal> elliott, THE IMPLICATIONS ARE OBVIOUS
23:41:15 <elliott> 23:40:05: <Vorpal> elliott, I found the UI for "hacking" things in that game utterly stupid. Far too hard to use compared to a real shell with tab complete
23:41:15 <elliott> ........................................
23:41:20 <Vorpal> elliott, so, you are doing me a smaller favour than I did you
23:41:21 <elliott> It's *meant* to be utterly stupid.
23:41:26 <elliott> It's a hacker movie simulator game :P
23:41:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I know. I just didn't realise how terrible to use it would be
23:42:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd like a realistic hacker movie. It probably wouldn't sell.
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23:43:31 <elliott> Well, most movies have hacking scenes using NMAAAAP today :P
23:43:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Apart from the entire premise, Tron: Legacy's scenes were realistic I gather.
23:43:56 <elliott> http://jtnimoy.net/workviewer.php?q=178
23:44:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://jtnimoy.net/workviewer.php?q=178 <-- what's with the huge font?
23:44:43 <Vorpal> elliott, NO I MEANT THE PAGE TEXT
23:45:25 <elliott> Vorpal: It's light on text and has big pretty pictures.
23:45:28 <elliott> The presentation works for me *shrug*
23:45:42 <elliott> A font that light wouldn't work at smaller size anyway :P
23:46:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what? It's Ariel?
23:46:08 <Vorpal> elliott, at least for me it is
23:46:09 <elliott> oh! that guy invented http://www.balldroppings.com/
23:46:26 <elliott> Vorpal: do you have embeded fonts disabled? stupid question of course you do
23:46:34 <Vorpal> "font-family: HelveticaNeueUltraLight,Arial;"
23:46:37 <Vorpal> elliott, not that I know of
23:46:42 <elliott> it's Helvetica Neue ultra light, anyway
23:46:56 <elliott> Vorpal: what browser version?
23:47:08 <elliott> iirc firefox only has font embedding 3.6 up
23:47:09 <Vorpal> elliott, firefox 3.6.something
23:47:13 <elliott> but i can hardly believe you are still on 3.5
23:47:25 <Vorpal> elliott, this is on ubuntu lucid LTS
23:50:12 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the hanoi for?
23:50:42 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why would nmap be used all over the place? nmap is for mapping ports. Nothing much else
23:50:49 <Vorpal> well, you can do some ARP scans with it too iirc