00:14:46 <oerjan> glogbot: what is elliott doing?
00:15:03 <elliott> glogbot says he's finding out why the -15 file didn't exist
00:15:06 <elliott> the answer is because nobody spoke yet
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00:45:49 * Sgeo wonders what Stanislav would think of PicoLisp
00:57:30 <tswett> No time to chat. Good night, everyone!
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01:04:43 <elliott> Vorpal: btw http://store.introversion.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=66
01:06:18 <Ilari> World IPv6 day: 8th June. APNIC depletion date: 14th April... What's wrong with this? :-)
01:17:07 <Gregor> First the opium wars, now this!
01:20:26 <Ilari> It'll be fun to check next IPv4 allocation rate figure and then see how it behaves in next days. Most probably drops A LOT.
01:21:48 <Sgeo> Presumably, Objective-C is not, in fact, limited to Macs
01:21:54 <Sgeo> So why is Nu limited to Macs?
01:22:21 <oerjan> but if it sharply climbs up in RIPE and ARIN - get nervous.
01:23:31 <Ilari> Right now major allocations list has 34 allocations by APNIC, 2 by RIPE, 2 by AFRINIC and 1 by LACNIC.
01:25:08 <oerjan> if, theoretically, the total allocation rate stayed the same, how long until all RIRs are depleted?
01:25:27 <oerjan> (can we get it in before 8th june? ;D)
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01:28:11 <oerjan> hm got to increase the panic then...
01:31:25 <Ilari> Well, APNIC estimated 3-6 months to depletion at the press confrence about IANA depletion. Reality: 2.5 months.
01:32:00 <elliott> He is Pushing his Panic Button.
01:38:50 <Ilari> Funky how recently IANA depletion estimates were May-June.
01:51:32 <coppro> Ilari: now what are you going to do since you can no longer waste your life informing us about APNIC depletion
01:52:08 <coppro> I did some minor analysis
01:52:23 <coppro> stochastic voting if not strictly linear in probability does induce strategic voting
01:53:02 <elliott> coppro: clarify "linear in probability"
01:53:31 <coppro> elliott: Once votes are tallied, the probability function scales linearly with votes
01:53:45 <coppro> anything else would give a situation where I might vote for a non-preferred candidate to spite a third
01:53:50 <elliott> coppro: That doesn't seem like an unreasonable constraint to place.
01:54:15 <coppro> elliott: but if you do that, the voting system is equivalent to pick someone at random and they pick the winner
01:54:33 <coppro> (assuming 100% turnout)
01:54:35 <elliott> coppro: yes, but it's a _weighted_ random
01:55:01 <coppro> elliott: Well suppose there are 100 electors
01:55:24 <coppro> if 60 vote for A and 40 for B, if there is 60% chance of A winning and 40% chance of B winning, this is equivalent to picking one elector at random and have them pick
01:55:57 * oerjan thought this was obvious
01:56:22 <coppro> elliott: If you do something different, then in a multi-way race, I might want a candidate to lose more than I want one to win, so strategic voting exists again
01:56:38 <elliott> <coppro> if 60 vote for A and 40 for B, if there is 60% chance of A winning and 40% chance of B winning, this is equivalent to picking one elector at random and have them pick
01:56:41 <elliott> that's exactly what the system is.
01:56:43 <coppro> since I will vote to give maximum weight to my vote
01:56:50 <coppro> elliott: you vehemently denied this
01:56:58 <elliott> coppro: I vehemently objected to your *wording* of it.
01:57:19 <elliott> You said "You pick someone at random and they choose a dictator", which is factually true but ignores the whole fact that the random is heavily weighted.
01:57:33 <elliott> It is therefore a true but insanely misleading and thus dishonest statement.
01:57:33 <coppro> elliott: No, it is accounting for the fact that it's heavily weighted
01:57:39 <elliott> "You pick someone at random and they choose a dictator"
01:57:50 <coppro> not 'they choose a dictator'
01:58:01 <elliott> <coppro> if 60 vote for A and 40 for B, if there is 60% chance of A winning and 40% chance of B winning, this is equivalent to picking one elector at random and have them pick
01:58:12 <coppro> You pick someone at random and they are a dictator, where dictator means that person dictates the outcome
01:58:17 <elliott> but OTOH, it's "smoother" than that
01:58:21 <elliott> yes, statistically, that is true
01:58:44 <coppro> then why do you object to me saying this?
01:58:50 <Ilari> coppro: Well, it took only few minutes to assemble that report. :-)
01:58:52 <coppro> and by random, I mean unweighted
01:59:03 <elliott> coppro: because the "dictator" language is loaded
01:59:15 <coppro> elliott: I was using the technical definition
01:59:30 <elliott> coppro: Very well, but I still think the way you said it was pretty flippant
01:59:45 <elliott> since AFAICT you were using it as an argument against
02:00:26 <elliott> coppro: Anyway, I don't think stochastic voting is necessarily a good idea when there's only 100 people involved.
02:00:37 <coppro> I just picked 100 as a small sample size
02:00:57 <elliott> On the other hand, when it's a whole country, I definitely think it balances out.
02:01:11 <elliott> coppro: also, I wouldn't support it for a presidential election system or anything, mostly because that's a stupid model anyway
02:01:18 <coppro> I am not a fan because of the possibility for bizarre outcomes
02:01:27 <elliott> so all that is dictated is one constituency's winner
02:01:37 <elliott> /riding's (I KNOW THESE CANAMADIAN LINGOS)
02:02:38 <elliott> coppro: Shrug -- the simulated election results for Canada look reasonable to me; I realise that the votes used are not accurate because they were made in a different voting system, but I don't think there's such a huge proportion of tactical voting that it would skew the outcome _that_ significantly.
02:02:50 <elliott> I didn't look at the results too closely, though, as I know little to nothing of Canadian politics.
02:03:43 <oerjan> fearing "possibility for bizarre outcomes" is irrational if those outcomes are extremely unlikely.
02:06:45 <Gregor> I ... don't know why I put two z's there.
02:07:15 <Gregor> Sounds like a good enough reason to me.
02:07:19 <elliott> "Bizørjan" sounds rather hard to pronounce, if oerjan's attempts to get me to pronounce his name correctly indicate anything.
02:07:32 <elliott> You're still oh-er-djan to me, oerjan.
02:10:26 <coppro> elliott: I know that the odds of a ridiculous outcome are quite unlikely
02:10:31 <coppro> it is still unsettling that they could occur
02:10:34 <elliott> coppro: oerjan is the one who said that.
02:10:45 <elliott> coppro: anyway, everyone could suddenly vote for the British National Party.
02:10:54 <elliott> that is *also* an unlikely, possible, bizarre, terrible outcome.
02:10:56 <coppro> although perhaps if you were to remove all outcomes with a sufficiently low percentage and then renormalize?
02:11:13 <elliott> perhaps. but probability itself kind of does that itself, stochastically ;)
02:11:22 <coppro> the problem is that it isn't absolute
02:11:31 <coppro> a 100% green house isn't impossible, for instance
02:11:37 <oerjan> every PM except for the BNP could die in a freak accicent
02:11:37 <elliott> ("And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years." --Russell O'Connor)
02:12:01 <elliott> coppro: erm, you realise that the stochastic process is applied individually to each constituency, right?
02:12:12 <coppro> elliott: hence it would be possible to get a 100% green parliament
02:12:29 <elliott> coppro: um, yes, that's also possible and as unlikely by other means
02:12:29 <coppro> but if you did something like calculate the odds of any given party distribution of seats
02:12:40 <coppro> and remove all with probability less than, say, one in one billion
02:12:52 <oerjan> coppro: and before that happens, earth will be swallowed by a freak black hole
02:13:05 <coppro> oerjan: or it might happen first try
02:13:15 <elliott> I accuse coppro of not understanding probability theory.
02:13:22 <oerjan> coppro: the "before" was in the "more likely" sense
02:13:33 <coppro> oerjan: ok, I agree with you
02:13:50 <elliott> I will wager that there are many things more terrible and more likely than a 100% green parliament with a stochastic voting system
02:14:05 <coppro> elliott: Yeah, there is
02:14:09 <coppro> a 100% conservative parliament
02:14:16 <oerjan> (note: no _actual_ calculation of either probability happened here. and what elliott said.)
02:14:49 <elliott> so I think it doesn't make sense to use that as an argument against the system. Rather than a 100% green parliament, IMO a better criticism would look like:
02:15:10 <elliott> "If one party has 49% of the vote and another has 51%, the former party could very easily win, and this applies with even less-balanced percentages."
02:15:11 <oerjan> coppro: basically your fear is like those people refusing to take vaccines against deadly diseases because of rare side effects
02:15:28 <elliott> i.e., the result of _big_ but inequal probabilites
02:15:47 <elliott> I don't think it's all that unreasonable for someone with 33% of the vote to have a 1/3 chance of winning, though.
02:16:01 <elliott> Over all constituencies it would probably balance out anyway.
02:16:54 <elliott> (It has to be said that I don't advocate a stochastic system in reality, for the sole reason that the immense mountain of FUD that would be generated against it would topple any attempt to put it into practice.)
02:17:12 <elliott> (What I am saying is: people are stupid and this is why we can't have nice things.)
02:22:47 * Sgeo installs PicoLisp on the school computer
02:23:08 <coppro> elliott: we should obviously implement this voting system in a coup
02:23:34 <elliott> coppro: all we need is for eliezer yudkowsky to declare himself supreme ruler of the earth!
02:23:44 <elliott> i forget how the rest of the plan goes.
02:24:25 <coppro> well the end is profit right?
02:25:43 <coppro> I wouldn't be confident in any plan where some of the details are sketchy unless it ends in profit
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02:28:15 <oerjan> given this is EY we have to be very careful how we define profit
02:28:28 <oerjan> lest we end up turned into dollar bills
02:28:45 <elliott> in oerjan's universe, EY is an unfriendly AI
02:28:47 <coppro> don't turned me into a dollar bill
02:28:53 <elliott> in the everyday sense of unfriendly, perhaps :D
02:29:14 <oerjan> elliott: IT'S THE OBVIOUS EXPLANATION
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02:48:12 <elliott> The original name, Pokemon, stands for "POK erythroid myeloid ontogenic factor" and is most likely a backronym of the Pokémon media franchise. Nintendo subsidiary Pokémon USA, not wanting the bad press inherent with its trademark sharing a name with a cancer-causing gene, threatened the center with legal action in December 2005, at which point MSKCC decided to rename it as Zbtb7.[3]
02:52:40 <Sgeo> Why hasn't everyone switched to the way PicoLisp does parens?
02:52:46 <Sgeo> It's... awesome
02:58:52 <Gregor> elliott: POKEMON GIVES YOU CANCER
03:04:28 <elliott> I'll image *your* T cancer.
03:04:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, what way of doing parens?
03:04:51 <coppro> but I'm not sure if my girlfriend will be happy
03:04:54 <Gregor> Sgeo: Given a quick look through the PicoLisp tutorial, I s--- damn, elliott got there first :P
03:05:03 <elliott> Maybe he means the ] closing thing that nobody uses.
03:05:10 <Sgeo> elliott, spacing out ) that close ( that are not on the line with )
03:05:47 <elliott> Sgeo: That's not awesome, that's stupid, and I haven't seen it in any example code :P
03:05:57 <elliott> The ONLY way that could be awesome is if... no, there is no way. Indentation shows you the structure of Lisp programs.
03:06:14 <elliott> If you are looking at the stack of closing parens to make sense of some code either the code is doing something wrong or, far more likely, you're doing something very, very wrong.
03:06:32 <Gregor> (Namely, using a Lisp-family language)
03:06:36 <Sgeo> https://github.com/evanrmurphy/PicoLisp/blob/master/lib/prof.l
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03:07:56 <elliott_> Sgeo: One, that's not the official PicoLisp distribution.
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03:08:09 <elliott_> Two, the only way that could help you read the code is if you're READING THE CODE COMPLETELY WRONGLY and inefficiently.
03:08:28 <elliott_> Pretend the parens aren't there. Heck, replace the parens with spaces. If you can't still make sense of the code, you cannot read Lisp.
03:08:41 <Sgeo> elliott_, my copy of the official PicoLisp distribution looks the same
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03:09:26 <elliott> Sgeo: I was merely questioning why you linked to it.
03:09:31 <elliott> Anyway, my second point is the relevant one.
03:09:54 <Sgeo> Well, it helps differentiate parens closing of ( on the same line, so it may be minorly helpful
03:10:34 <Sgeo> (+ (+ (+ (+ (+ 1 2) 3) 4) 5))))))
03:10:36 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't think you understand.
03:10:39 <elliott> *You do not look at the parens.*
03:11:08 <Sgeo> You kind of have to when some complex code is on one line, I'd think
03:11:34 <elliott> In fact Lispers generally set their parens to almost white.
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03:30:28 <elliott> oerjan: btw it seems i misremember: you are the one who told _me_ about superstrict
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03:32:28 <elliott> oerjan: regardless, it is cool :)
03:48:24 <Sgeo> When this article in defense of newlisp says that things are passed by-value.. could it possibly mean "newLisp _simulates_ passing things by value"?
03:48:49 <Sgeo> (I should stop trying to defend idiots, to paraphrase elliott)
03:49:59 <Sgeo> "There are no threads. Writing safe, parallel code is simple through actors and spawn/sync because newLISP simply forks itself. Its modest stature makes this a fairly cheap operation, allowing the OS to handle scheduling and memory-protection. Try forking a JVM "
03:50:24 <Sgeo> Does this person not under... I don't get it. He thinks the reason Clojure doesn't use the actor model is because... it's on the JVM?
03:51:24 <Sgeo> I'm going to chalk this up to an idiot blog post, and not slam all of newLisp for it, I think
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04:01:51 <elliott> 03:49:59: <Sgeo> "There are no threads. Writing safe, parallel code is simple through actors and spawn/sync because newLISP simply forks itself. Its modest stature makes this a fairly cheap operation, allowing the OS to handle scheduling and memory-protection. Try forking a JVM� "
04:01:51 <elliott> 03:50:24: <Sgeo> Does this person not under... I don't get it. He thinks the reason Clojure doesn't use the actor model is because... it's on the JVM?
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04:02:13 <elliott> I give up, I need a log source with my ignores built in.
04:04:06 <Sgeo> "allowing the OS to handle scheduling and memory-protection"
04:04:10 <Sgeo> I think I missed that
04:26:38 <elliott> wow: :leguin.freenode.net NOTICE * :*** Your hostname is too long, ignoring hostname
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04:30:02 <zeptobot> -> PRIVMSG #esoteric : ! AttributeError: 'Symbol' object has no attribute 'apply'
04:31:29 <zeptobot> -> PRIVMSG #esoteric : ! AttributeError: 'Symbol' object has no attribute 'car'
04:31:38 <zeptobot> -> PRIVMSG #esoteric : ! TypeError: 'Symbol' object is not callable
04:32:52 <monqy> I've never seen a bot forget where it put its PRIVMSG before
04:33:58 <elliott> I think that's Python's IO buffering.
04:34:04 <elliott> ^ a gets printed, _then_ b gets evaluated
04:34:15 <elliott> since b exception'd, it goes to print the exception...
04:34:18 <elliott> but it's already printed the start
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04:35:48 <zeptobot> ! NameError: global name 'List' is not defined
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04:36:13 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'NilClass' object has no attribute 'apply'
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04:37:03 <elliott> Sgeo should be taking more of an interest in my exciting new lisp.
04:37:48 <Sgeo> : (show quote)
04:38:15 <Sgeo> That puts me in mind of Ruby
04:38:37 <elliott> Sgeo: what do you want show to do?
04:38:56 <elliott> NilClass shares a name with Ruby, but actually it's just the class of ()
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04:39:09 <elliott> yes, it's called zepto. (after picolisp, obviously.)
04:39:59 <elliott> probably string-symbols should quote themselves...
04:40:25 <Sgeo> I think I really like picolis
04:41:00 <elliott> : (''''''''''''''"x a b" 3)
04:41:00 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
04:41:43 <elliott> : (() "I can put anything here I want at all." (''''''''''''''"x a b" 3))
04:43:27 <elliott> Sgeo: well, at least PicoLisp will be the first good language you like.
04:43:44 <Sgeo> elliott, so, Smalltalk sucks, in your opinion?
04:44:06 <elliott> ok, second. maybe third. (Factor is alright)
04:44:21 <elliott> Smalltalk has some pretty bad deficiencies, though. like classes.
04:44:52 <Sgeo> Picolisp has classes. Although I think they're not mandatory or something (still don't quite understand it)
04:45:25 <monqy> I should learn more languages sometime
04:47:15 <zeptobot> ! ParseFail: Invalid character )
04:47:20 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
04:47:31 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
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04:48:19 <elliott> ok why on earth won't that evaluate...
04:48:30 <elliott> hmm, oh, i think i broke something somehow?
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04:54:29 <monqy> zeptolisp looks confusing :(
04:55:09 <monqy> what is it doing with those strings
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04:55:35 <elliott> monqy: those aren't strings, just symbols
04:55:40 <elliott> "foo bar" is like |foo bar|
04:55:51 <elliott> I was just testing the display of string escapes
04:55:59 <elliott> : '"hello world! \"this is a test\""
04:55:59 <zeptobot> -> "hello world! \"this is a test\""
05:01:39 <elliott> monqy: it's not confusing, it does not even have variables!
05:01:44 <elliott> well it does, but they're all predefined.
05:02:21 <elliott> do i maintain nil's traditional hermaphrodite nature or just get rid of the nil symbol altogether...
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05:14:46 <Sgeo> Why do so many languages integrate a prolog-like?
05:16:09 <elliott> Sgeo: because prolog is awesome.
05:16:18 <elliott> I know of... two environments with Prolog databases.
05:16:26 <elliott> Franz Allegro Common Lisp, and PicoLisp.
05:16:26 <Sgeo> PicoLisp, Racket
05:17:45 <elliott> Anyway, Prolog databases are the Lisp of databases. So I'm not surprised.
05:17:48 <elliott> The two integrate well, too.
05:20:17 <elliott> Racket's Datalog support doesn't look very good as far as actual database usage goes.
05:23:37 <Sgeo> Picolisp's object system seems very.. prototype-ish, even if it's not usually used that way
05:26:13 <Sgeo> Picolisp seems to be lacking in any namespacing
05:26:23 <Sgeo> Erm, for public APIs, I mean
05:26:36 <elliott> Namespacing does not seem to gel with PicoLisp's philosophy.
05:39:53 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Funciton oh gosh this is new
05:43:06 <Sgeo> Ooh, infinite-sized negative numbers
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05:58:17 <elliott> 05:43:06: <Sgeo> Ooh, infinite-sized negative numbers
05:58:24 <elliott> Infinite-sized as in arbitrary-precision.
05:58:29 <elliott> -58346834653874568736458236589346238462734623746234 ;; omg infinite!
05:58:59 <Sgeo> More as in, the spec describes them as having an infinite amount of 1 bits
06:01:25 <elliott> That's just how two's complement works.
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06:17:06 <Ilari> Heh... Someone should have submitted some really whacky layer 4 protcol as April Fools RFC.
06:18:47 <Ilari> (Including stuff like built-in DH / encryption / authentication, textual service names, etc...)
06:25:06 <Ilari> Oh, and bonus points for making any form of port translation impossible.
06:30:35 <elliott> because his IP has :s in it
06:30:38 <elliott> Ilari: I hope you feel bad.
06:30:47 <elliott> THIS IS WHY IPv6 IS EVIL >:D
06:31:50 <elliott> :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Breaks it how?
06:31:55 <elliott> What zeptobot thinks the message text is:
06:31:57 <elliott> 5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Breaks it how?
06:32:01 <elliott> It just looks for the second : :-)
06:32:08 <elliott> I'll make it look for " :" instead.
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06:34:07 <elliott> Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert: "The reality is that women are treated differently by society for exactly the same reason that children and the mentally handicapped are treated differently. It’s just easier this way for everyone."
06:34:23 <elliott> This is the most ridiculous, sexist, incoherent piece of shit post I have ever read. Well, apart from so many other posts.
06:35:11 <fizzie> I guess technically the server could send a single-word PRIVMSG body without the :, legally. Not that I think any do.
06:35:58 <elliott> fizzie: Yah, but zeptobot is a ``grosse five-minute hacke''.
06:36:04 <elliott> It numbers thirty~one lines.
06:36:17 <elliott> (Zepto itself is longer, of course. And woefully incomplete.)
06:36:28 <elliott> (But still short! Dynamic binding = SHORT INTERPRETER.)
06:43:47 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/R7rT6.jpg Boats "not laser-proof", says Navy
06:47:40 <olsner> hmm, oerjan is gone, he seemed to have questions about my experiment
06:47:50 <olsner> elliott: any idea about the 10% off thing?
06:48:02 <elliott> olsner: could you show your compiler?
06:48:12 <elliott> olsner: Is it just a constant offset apart from the first character?
06:48:17 <elliott> that is, what characters are not just ten off?
06:48:37 <olsner> elliott: space is 3 off and ends up as 29 instead of 32
06:48:48 <olsner> and the initial H is 7 off (72-7=65=A)
06:49:07 <elliott> how does your compiler encode the output internally? it outputs as bits, right?
06:49:13 <elliott> is that how the original Thue program processed things?
06:49:23 <elliott> do you apply Thue rules at random, or is there a defined order?
06:50:42 <olsner> yes, the thue interpreter outputs in bits and seems to store bits internally too
06:50:54 <olsner> gah, the BF interpreter in Thue, that is
06:51:01 <olsner> there is no Thue interpreter, it's compiled :P
06:52:01 <elliott> sorry if i'm being impatient, I haven't slept so my perception of time is screwy. i'm not joking
06:52:26 <olsner> rules are applied in the order they appear in the source file, which match of the string gets replaced depends on the regexps used by mod_rewrite
06:52:46 <elliott> olsner: does the Python interpreter follow the same ordering? Perhaps it is a buggy program that relies on a certain kind of ordering.
06:53:11 <elliott> olsner: If you could somehow make the Python program match that second behaviour by choosing a random match, that might help.
06:53:19 <elliott> Or another interpreter of your choice, of ocurse.
06:53:51 <elliott> olsner: I would also try: a program that outputs every byte.
06:54:19 <elliott> Then see if perhaps the same characters get messed up, etc.
06:54:47 <Lymia> Apparently in Java, super.a() and a() are not the same.
06:54:55 <Lymia> That is, if you don't override a()
06:55:22 <Lymia> If you have class A that defines a method a(), and a class B that extends it.
06:55:25 <Lymia> B can call super.a();
06:55:27 <elliott> Java is usually incredibly boring to the point of the kind of insanity you get from being overly sane, but this doesn't sound characteristic...
06:55:36 <elliott> Lymia: Can't it call a() too?
06:55:51 <Lymia> B has a method b() that calls super.a();
06:56:07 <Lymia> If a class C overrides B, and overrides a(), then a call to C.b() calls A.a() instead of C.a()
06:56:17 <Lymia> If B used a() instead, this dosn't occur.
06:56:29 <elliott> That... almost makes sense.
06:56:35 <Lymia> I'm not entirely sure if this is reasonable behavior.
06:56:42 <elliott> "super" is statically (lexically) resolved to the superclass of the current (lexical) class.
06:57:05 <elliott> Whereas "a()" is always relative to "this", which is not lexical at all, of course.
06:57:17 <elliott> Lymia: I think it makes sense... it is quite unintuitive though.
06:57:20 <Lymia> I can see this causing some issues to people not exactly aware of it.
06:57:26 <elliott> Lymia: In my opinion, the only place super.x() should be allowed is in an overriding of x.
06:57:31 <elliott> In fact it should probably just be super().
06:57:42 <elliott> Otherwise there's little (no?) reason to call it.
06:57:52 <Lymia> It makes sense, but.... ick.
06:57:56 <Lymia> I can see this causing obscure bugs.
06:58:07 <elliott> If you follow the rule of not using super.x() anywhere but in an overriding x(), no problem! 8D
06:58:13 <Lymia> "Let's add super in front of everything to make it clearer!"
06:58:18 <Lymia> "Why is the program breakkinngg!"
06:58:23 <elliott> It sounds like there is another bug at work here: Idiots!
06:58:58 <fizzie> "super.x" is defined in the spec to be equivalent to "((S)this).x", where S is the direct superclass.
06:58:59 <olsner> the python interpreter selects a random match (which is probably why it's so slow), so I believe this program is supposed to work with any ordering
06:59:09 <Lymia> Are there any Java shops with a policy to the effect of "calls to the superclass must be proceeded with a super."
06:59:28 <elliott> Lymia: For all stupid policies X there is a Java shop with policy X.
06:59:37 <Lymia> fizzie, ((S)this).a() still calls a() if a() is overridden in a subclass, I believe.
06:59:42 <elliott> Including the policy "rape by the Dear Leader is to take place on Easter only when a chicken is not engaged".
06:59:50 <elliott> (In fact 90% of Java shops have this policy.)
07:00:04 <elliott> Lymia: Lack of sleep is a CREATIVE AID, dammit, not an impediment to sanity.
07:00:16 <elliott> <Lymia> fizzie, ((S)this).a() still calls a() if a() is overridden in a subclass, I believe.
07:00:29 <elliott> If it's defined by the spec to be equivalent to super.a() (well, other way around), this is either false or an implementation bug.
07:00:31 <Lymia> Still calls a() in the subclass.
07:00:34 <Sgeo> For a short period of time, in my C++ class, I had a self-imposed policy of always using this->
07:00:37 <fizzie> Lymia: Since "super.x()" is literally defined to be "((S)this).x()", I find that hard to believe. (Well, at least assuming your earlier statement was true.)
07:00:48 <elliott> olsner: well, run .+[.+] to see what happens.
07:01:02 <fizzie> "Suppose that a field access expression super.name appears within class C, and the immediate superclass of C is class S. Then super.name is treated exactly as if it had been the expression ((S)this).name; thus, it refers to the field named name of the current object, but with the current object viewed as an instance of the superclass. Thus it can access the field named name that is visible in class S, even if that field is hidden by a declaration of a field nam
07:01:14 <elliott> fizzie: It is not inconceivable that such a cast would be inefficient with the standard Java implementation and so super is special-case optimised in a way that introduces this "bug".
07:01:21 <elliott> But I doubt it; this is a pretty major semantic thing.
07:02:16 <Lymia> ((S)this).a() != super.a()
07:02:16 <fizzie> Oh, that was about field access.
07:02:37 <elliott> fizzie... says something authoritative...
07:02:41 <elliott> and is... wrong... mind... imploding...
07:02:58 <fizzie> I've quoted the wrong bits of spec earlier too.
07:03:29 <elliott> fizzie: But if you said something about R5RS... there's no way that would be false, right?
07:03:46 <elliott> fizzie: Quick! How does DYNAMIC-WIND interact with CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION?
07:03:46 <olsner> hmm, if I change that to have an extra + first, it prints 0, 1, 2, ...
07:03:57 <elliott> olsner: an extra + first? what...
07:04:01 <olsner> but as given, it prints 1, 2, ...
07:04:03 <elliott> fizzie: it should print 0 without the extra plus first
07:04:21 <elliott> same in python interp? or different?
07:04:38 <elliott> olsner: are you sure you have the right source with the right target?
07:04:51 <elliott> could it turn into aa::=d, c::=b somehow?o
07:05:38 <olsner> I doubt it could confuse the rules since they're processed line by line
07:06:14 <elliott> olsner: can you show your compiler? :P
07:06:18 <elliott> i doubt i will understand it
07:07:23 <Lymia> I guess the super.a() behavior could be useful to stop overly clever malicious code from manipulating the behavior of a final method.
07:07:29 <olsner> elliott: http://rewrite.olsner.se/thuerewrite.sed
07:07:35 <elliott> Lymia: that thinking is dangerous Javathought
07:07:48 <elliott> Lymia: this idea that all your classes are "under attack" and you need to lock everything away so it isn't "maliciously broken"
07:07:51 <olsner> it's only 6 lines, how hard could it be :P
07:08:03 <elliott> Your code breaks if a moron does something stupid, and no amount of lockdown will stop that :)
07:08:04 <Lymia> I said that because that's what I'm doing right now.
07:08:09 <Lymia> I'm using LWJGL's AWTGLCanvas.
07:08:19 <elliott> Well, final methods are a bad idea in general.
07:08:39 <Lymia> It's paint(Graphics) method is final, so I can't block it from executing, once I call it to make it create it's context.
07:08:49 <Lymia> It has a line if(!isDisplayable()) return;
07:08:52 <elliott> As are protected methods (aka "slightly less convenient to access public methods"). Private methods might not be bad, but I find that usually people get around it if you make one.
07:08:57 <olsner> elliott: http://rewrite.olsner.se/bf.conf for what the output of that sed script gets pasted into
07:08:58 <elliott> I've used a private method on Python's thread class before.
07:09:26 <elliott> olsner: are you sure you escape enough?
07:09:33 <Lymia> So I'm going to check if AWTGLCanvas is calling isDisplayable from it's paint method, and if it is, return false.
07:09:39 <Lymia> Otherwise, return super.isDisplayable().
07:09:47 <elliott> olsner: can you just replace every x with \x? or i guess it might process some escapes...
07:10:06 <olsner> I think both insufficient/extraneous escaping in that script, and interactions with urlencoding can be at play here
07:10:22 <Lymia> elliott, that works too.
07:10:29 <olsner> dunno if replacing in what ends up in the right-hand part of the output rules is a good idea for instance
07:10:30 <elliott> olsner: can you write 32 +s and then a few dots to check that spaces always get fucked up in the same way?
07:10:34 <elliott> otherwise i'll turn to heavy drink
07:10:48 <elliott> <olsner> dunno if replacing in what ends up in the right-hand part of the output rules is a good idea for instance
07:11:34 <olsner> I do escaping on the whole lines in the thue program, then some of that escaped text ends up in the 'b' part of "RewriteRule a b"
07:11:55 <Lymia> elliott, so, yeah.
07:11:58 <Lymia> It's me being malicious.
07:12:07 <elliott> Lymia: we're all malicious here.
07:12:27 <elliott> who is a robot and is prevented from doing wrong by strong laws
07:12:34 <elliott> (this is my current theory and i am sticking with it)
07:12:43 <Lymia> I was wondering if the API could be modified in the future without changing behavior (for the most part) to prevent.. tricks like this.
07:12:48 <elliott> olsner: I think there's an [x] flag you can set for some x that prevents substitutions in the RHS
07:12:53 <elliott> you are at least escaping $ and the like, right?
07:14:22 <elliott> Lymia: My biased opinion is that attempts to stop people doing things are fruitless, and will only either exasperate them because they *could* do something had you not prevented it, or cause them to work around or subvert it, in a really ugly manner. (That is, modulo trust. If a component A doesn't trust a component B, it's of course fine for A to be strict about what B can do. So I'm not saying all computer security is useless, just that libraries
07:14:22 <elliott> meworks trying to stop the user doing things is generally a waste of time.)
07:15:04 <Lymia> My second option would be reflection abuse, and my third option would be manually loading the library to bypass the Sealed: line.
07:15:05 <olsner> haha, I think the first character of the program is getting cut off
07:15:18 <Lymia> That's about right.
07:15:24 <elliott> olsner: well that would explain the 0,1,... vs. 1,2,... thing :)
07:16:23 <fizzie> Is there some particular reason you don't want that paint() called?
07:16:24 <olsner> and also the hello world, probably... it starts with 10 or so pluses and I guess 10 is then multiplied with other things to produce the characters
07:16:24 <elliott> Lymia: yeah, languages with full reflection APIs and otherwise strong access controls tend to invite ... particularly perverse ways to work around such things
07:16:40 <olsner> that turns into 9*whatever, and the 10% bug happens
07:16:51 <Lymia> elliott, you could always pull out the ASM library~
07:17:40 <fizzie> You could always just s/final//g in the lwjgl sources; it's not like you wouldn't have to distribute your own copy anyway, since it's in no way standard.
07:17:49 <elliott> Lymia: Or e.g. saw my head off, take a bath in molten lava, drink pure acid, crush my genitalia, open up my chest, rip out my heart, and stop on it...
07:18:04 <elliott> All things more pleasurable than pulling out the ASM library for that purpose!
07:18:19 <Lymia> Subverting things is more fun.
07:18:24 <elliott> fizzie: Inspired by "Wikileaks To Leak 5000 Open Source Java Projects With All That Private/Final Bullshit Removed"?
07:18:45 <fizzie> Perhaps unconsciously.
07:18:49 <fizzie> I remember seeing that.
07:26:47 <fizzie> Oh, there's the proper bit: "15.12.4.4 Locate Method to Invoke -- If the invocation mode is interface or virtual, then S is initially the actual run-time class R of the target object. -- If the invocation mode is super, then S is initially the qualifying type of the method invocation."
07:27:34 <fizzie> So having the super. in there actually changes the "invocation mode" flag associated with the call at compile time.
07:27:46 <elliott> Java: More of a mess than Fythe!
07:28:06 <monqy> am I just tired or is java really confusing
07:28:23 <elliott> I'm even more tired (probably), but yes, pretty sure it's just confusing
07:29:14 <oklopol> i had this dream where an old friend tattooed ears to my back
07:30:20 <elliott> or just tattoos that look like ears
07:30:29 <oklopol> and i carried the last eggs of some almost extinct fish to some sorta dressing room and vomited everywhere
07:30:51 <monqy> sounds like a good dream I would like to have
07:31:00 <oklopol> they were tiny little tattoos of green ears
07:31:16 <elliott> <oklopol> and i carried the last eggs of some almost extinct fish to some sorta dressing room and vomited everywhere
07:31:21 <elliott> i can see this being in an arty kind of film
07:31:43 <elliott> The Rescuing of the Fish [Speciesnamehere]
07:31:59 <elliott> after you vomit it's just still for like 20 seconds and then it just fades out to credits, is this correct oklopol?
07:32:03 <elliott> maybe i should direct this.
07:32:14 <oklopol> i also looked in the mirror and looked like jabba the hutt
07:32:33 <elliott> that can be in the film too.
07:32:40 <elliott> except changed slightly to avoid infringement.
07:33:02 <oklopol> i don't know if i was saving the fish or what, i was running away from someone and i just had to hide the eggs from them
07:33:17 <elliott> you are. that is the plot.
07:33:20 <oklopol> but the reason i vomited them in the dressing room was that i thought it'd be a funny prank
07:33:34 <elliott> like, the eggs were in your mouth?
07:33:39 <oklopol> i carried them in my mouth
07:33:42 <elliott> this just keeps getting better and better
07:33:45 <oklopol> i had to swim for miles you see
07:33:55 <elliott> so who was the person you were running away from
07:34:03 <elliott> as some reviewers have taken to calling it
07:35:23 <elliott> monqy: can you fund this film please
07:35:42 <elliott> it will be arty, i am sure it will premier in cannes or somewhere else sufficiently snobbish
07:35:59 <oklopol> i don't know, up to the point just before i descended from the mountain to the shore it was some sort of video game
07:36:18 <elliott> that would make really good visual
07:36:23 <elliott> had a camera zoomed waay out
07:36:36 <oklopol> one interesting thing about my dreams is when bad things happen i often go "nah i'd prefer that not happen" and rewind time, but not realize it's a dream
07:36:36 <elliott> so we could see you running from the top of the mountain to the shore without the camera moving at all
07:36:43 <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
07:36:51 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
07:36:54 <HackEgo> 364) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
07:38:06 <oklopol> also i tried to convince my dad that i can do a second jump while in midair
07:38:16 <elliott> can you do a wall jump too
07:38:35 <elliott> oklopol: where you jump up, then hit off a wall
07:38:38 <elliott> and that ELEVATES YOU HIGHER
07:38:49 <elliott> so if you double jump, and then kick of a wall, that's three jumps for the price of one!
07:39:13 <monqy> what if you squat before jumping? does that make you go higher
07:39:36 <monqy> is running before backflipping better before normal backflipping? I can't recall
07:39:43 <elliott> i have pretty much internalised ridiculous jumps from super mario galaxy, which has like
07:39:48 <elliott> i kid, it's actually more like four.
07:39:53 <oklopol> that one finnish parkour guy did this fun thing where he ran two steps up a wall and then one step along the ceiling
07:39:53 <elliott> but i'm pretty sure you can do them all together
07:40:05 <elliott> crouch, backflip, hit off a wall, and then spin
07:40:17 <elliott> congratulations, in one jump you have scaled an entire wall
07:41:27 <oklopol> one of my recurring dreams is that when i jump, i don't have to come down, i can just float 30cm above the floor forever
07:42:04 <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop
07:42:28 <elliott> in lucid dreams the best i've managed so far is a kind of
07:42:32 <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again"
07:42:53 <elliott> like, i usually start dreaming in my bedroom when i'm going to be lucid for some reason, so as soon as i reality check
07:42:57 <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
07:43:05 <elliott> i open the window (ok i could probably skip that and just go through it but i'm cautious)
07:43:17 <elliott> I just fall slowly enough that it doesn't hurt
07:43:28 <elliott> and then I can jump slightly higher than normal and glide a tiny bit but it's still basically a slow fall
07:43:43 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again" <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
07:43:45 <HackEgo> 365) <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again" <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
07:44:32 <oklopol> nowadays, i can pretty much stop it from happening
07:44:37 <oklopol> but it takes a lot of effort
07:44:47 <monqy> solution: have great sex dreams
07:45:07 <oklopol> same for suddenly starting to fly upwards
07:45:26 <oklopol> if i really concentrate, i can lower myself down and keep myself there
07:45:34 <oklopol> otherwise i just keep ascending
07:46:04 <elliott> honestly just had this thought:
07:46:13 <elliott> "oklopol sounds like a really awesome dream guy, i should have a dream with him sometime"
07:46:26 <elliott> my brain has now moved itself to a new universe which is ten times as awesome as this universe because things like that are possible
07:46:32 <elliott> unfortunately my body is still in this universe
07:46:40 <monqy> I want to go to that universe
07:46:59 <elliott> we can all go there together
07:47:12 <elliott> (the transition will be absolutely unobservable and have no effects from our point of view)
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08:26:19 <elliott> http://www.somethingstore.com/ omg.
08:26:34 <elliott> never have i felt more of a consumerist than when i realised how gleefully i reacted to this concept.
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08:29:46 <elliott> I think Lisp is the language which most minimises irritation from lack of sleep.
08:30:04 <elliott> It should therefore be the first choice of regular takers of all-nighters worldwide.
08:31:20 <monqy> any particular dialect?
08:32:00 <elliott> I haven't thought that far yet, this is just rampant speculation after I got a Grand Idea (not all that grand) and my brain immediately ruled out every language that isn't Lisp for reasons of sheer tedium like having to remember syntax of any kind.
08:32:47 <elliott> I don't think Common Lisp or Scheme would fit the bill, though; Common Lisp because of the amount of what is essentially arcana to remember, and Scheme for its lovable but irritating language-pedanticism that surfaces in mild verbosity.
08:32:56 <elliott> (Not that I have anything against Scheme, or much against Common Lisp.)
08:33:22 <elliott> (I am speaking purely from the perspective of someone who notices that they jumped right to Lisp as an implementation language when sleep-deprived, despite this being a rare occurrence when not so afflicted.)
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08:48:20 <elliott> is funghi actually a word thing
08:48:25 <elliott> also, you're always batman, ph.
08:49:07 <fizzie> fungot: What do you know about funghi?
08:49:08 <fungot> fizzie: because then your yearning to fnord would be good though
08:49:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: well, it's an improvement on gay vampire, I suppose.
08:49:30 <elliott> funghi is not a word Phantom_Hoover
08:49:38 <elliott> Definitions of funghi on the Web:
08:49:38 <elliott> Mushrooms. See “Mushrooms and Truffles” chapter.
08:49:38 <elliott> www.italianculinaryfoundation.com/glossary/d-f.shtml
08:49:51 <elliott> ONLY THE ITALIAN CULINARY FOUNDATION AGREES WITH YOU PHANTOM HOOVER
08:50:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, err, you realise Batman is a gay vampire, right?
08:50:35 <elliott> I can think of no things that are wrong things in that thing that is a theory.
08:51:03 <elliott> Shit, *I* would be happy being a gay vampire if it meant I was Batman and Batman was a gay vampire.
08:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 07:39:43: <elliott> i have pretty much internalised ridiculous jumps from super mario galaxy, which has like
08:51:57 <elliott> it *does* have ridiculous jumps though!
08:52:11 <elliott> AND DON'T BE TALKIN' LIKE THAT TO ME WHIPPERSNAPPER
08:52:16 <elliott> YOU DON'T KNOW THE HORRORS OF LUIGI'S PURPLE COINS
08:52:30 <elliott> BUT SHUT UP 100% COMPLETION ON 1 AND 2 SO CLEARLY I KNOW EVERYTHING
08:53:02 <elliott> monqy knows what he's talking about.
08:53:55 <elliott> ok he's passed the Incredibly Irritating Fake Person Who Clogs the Channel test, I think we can all stop fooling monqy now
08:53:59 -!- elliott has changed nick to A_Robertson.
08:55:06 <Ilari> Gobal burnrate currently: 47 320 512 addresses (2.8205 blocks) per 30 days. Let's see how that figure evolves. :-)
08:55:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to A_McCuil.
08:55:18 <A_Robertson> What a happy channel this is free from such ghastly yet ultimately fictional people called elliott
08:55:27 <A_Robertson> A_McCuil: How is that new research paper going
08:55:37 <A_Robertson> Have you formatted all the references yet?
08:56:01 <A_Robertson> I have been attempting to write a program to automate that process for you recently. I wanted to keep it as a joyful surprise for you when I finished.
08:56:09 <A_Robertson> However I have run into some stumbling blocks, so it may be a short while.
08:56:15 <A_Robertson> Oh dear, it appears our messages have become entangled.
08:56:27 <A_McCuil> It is a blight upon the world.
08:56:49 <A_Robertson> And now over to our Finnish correspondent. Mr. Ilari, what is the current status of Internet Protocol 4 depletion, if you please?
08:57:18 <A_Robertson> I am asking this question because in this universe we have IPv4 depletion reports instead of weather reports like all decent societies. I wonder why I am commenting on a thing so obvious!
08:57:25 <A_Robertson> What kind of society would have weather reports? The mind boggles.
09:00:58 <A_McCuil> Perhaps one in which there is imminent weather depletion?
09:01:27 <A_Robertson> Lo! I have produced a crude textologic representation of a face in a contorted expression of painful laughter!
09:01:32 <A_Robertson> That is how merrisome I found your remark.
09:01:34 <A_McCuil> Ah, we have moved onto mathematics, no?
09:02:01 <A_Robertson> Verily it can indeed be interpreted twofold: as such an icon, and as a mathematical formula!
09:03:09 <A_McCuil> Perhaps it refers to the result of D subtracted from X?
09:03:35 <A_McCuil> Or, in the world of those who abuse notation, the set X sans all members of D.
09:04:02 <A_Robertson> But we do not live in a world where people abuse notation!
09:04:11 <A_Robertson> This is thanks to our stringent policy of beheadings for all those who abuse notation.
09:04:19 <A_Robertson> Sadly, for this, our world lacks advanced mathematics of any kind.
09:04:55 <A_McCuil> Perhaps some kind of automated calligraphy system could be utilitous?
09:05:44 -!- A_Robertson has changed nick to elliott.
09:05:50 <elliott> This has officially worn thin :P
09:07:04 <elliott> I AM TRAPPED ... IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE!
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09:07:25 <elliott> Let us pretend as if nothing has happened, and act exactly like the inhabitants of this world do.
09:07:30 <elliott> what are the haps my friends
09:08:21 <monqy> oh wait no that's how the haps are
09:08:27 <monqy> not sure what they are, at all
09:09:30 <fizzie> I think it's short for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplosporidia
09:14:43 <Phantom_Hoover> LIGHT WORK, ABILITY TO DEACTIVATE HIGHER COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS REQUIRED.
09:14:50 <elliott> yes, we have us two, now we need a third stooge so we can be the three stooges
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10:33:43 <elliott> "Other users are also experiencing difficulties connecting to this site, so you may have to wait a few minutes." --Chrome
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11:26:27 <elliott> Gah, I need a bigger hard disk.
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12:37:31 <tswett> adiabatic adiabatic adiabatic
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13:23:26 <Gregor> CS Colloquia mailing list sez: Dr. Alicja Ziemienowicz from the University of Lethbridge will be giving a seminar entitled: A new method of transgene delivery to monocot plants (Abstract below)
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13:39:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is "monocot plants"
13:40:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, actually, what the heck does the title mean? Something about genetic engineering I guess. But I know too little of that field to figure out anything further than that
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14:10:41 <elliott> POLL: Is the wiki's logo's name "threelimes", "trilime", or something else entirely?
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14:34:09 <Gregor> gmake should implement a "live" mode that will watch all the files make knows about and rebuild whenever one of them changes.
14:37:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, what would happen if a file changed during the rebuild?
14:37:37 <Gregor> Vorpal: Is it really so difficult to imagine? Let the rebuild continue (or fail), then do it again when it's done.
14:38:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, and what if a file is removed or added, and some sort of wildcard is used in the Makefile (perfectly possible)
14:38:40 <Gregor> All perfectly and easily solvable, there's no reason why you can't have an implicit dep on a directory.
14:39:08 <Gregor> Although things like */*/*.c could provide a bit of a problem :P
14:39:42 <Gregor> It's always possible to be quite conservative and totally regenerate all the glob->list mappings whenever anything changes at all.
14:40:10 <Gregor> (Also, globs in Makefiles are the root of all evil)
14:40:19 <elliott> *root of all lazy productivity
14:40:47 <Gregor> elliott: YOUR MOM IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL
14:40:54 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah that's right. You are the embodiment of evil.
14:41:52 <Vorpal> speaking of which, would it be possible to create a make target that depended recursively on a directory. A trivial example might be make zip_up_that_dir
14:42:16 <Vorpal> well rather, make zip_of_that_dir.zip
14:42:44 <Vorpal> actually hm it wouldn't. There would be no way to detect removal of files, right?
14:42:59 <Vorpal> unless that updates the dir timestamp
14:43:16 * elliott just saved the first iteration of a more approachable, styled main page with a more linear reading order to the wiki.
14:43:19 <Vorpal> which it seems do to indeed
14:43:30 <elliott> Ugh, need to disable edit section links
14:44:29 <elliott> The old one sorta got overgrown with my silly injokery, and the table layout was... uhh, an interesting experiment in non-linear navigation, i.e. it was useless.
14:44:38 <Vorpal> elliott, aww some of the stuff went away, like that quote
14:45:38 <Vorpal> elliott, also where is the "Today's day of the day of ..." stuff?
14:46:30 <Vorpal> elliott, but apart from the missing stuff it looks better
14:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, aww, do it with CSS and <div>s :/
14:47:32 <Gregor> I don't like anything that has /neither/ the day of the day of the day of the day nor the matrix of solidity.
14:49:44 <elliott> Gregor: Realise that people actually land on our main page :P
14:50:12 <elliott> Gregor: I'm all for the creation of an Alternate Universe Cthulhian Horror Main Page.
14:50:51 <Gregor> *watches it be reverted*
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14:53:00 * elliott tries to figure out how to work the community portal in there so we can get endless new generations of irritating newbies flocking here.
14:53:26 <Gregor> Yeah, that's right. I actually ADDED something.
14:53:48 <elliott> I was trying to work in a more NOTICEABLE link :P
14:54:05 <elliott> Rounded corners don't work on Mozilla because they use -moz- properties despite there being CSS3 names for it
14:54:17 <Gregor> God, it's like you lock yourSELF in a matrix of solidity.
14:58:46 * elliott rearranges the community portal article to emphasise IRC over, you know, the totally dead mailing list.
15:02:45 <elliott> Gregor: I will accept that >_>
15:02:57 <elliott> Purely because FUCK SCREEN READERS
15:06:25 <elliott> Kay, community portal now has the IRC channel in big letters :P
15:06:42 <Gregor> Not sure what screen readers has to do with it though ...
15:06:57 <elliott> Gregor: <img src="/w/images/7/75/Trilime.png" alt="Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity." width="135" height="131" longdesc="/wiki/Image:Trilime.png" />
15:07:25 <Gregor> Oh, that's odd, it put it on the alt too.
15:07:36 <elliott> That's what that wiki syntax feature is FOR :P
15:07:38 <Gregor> All I cared about was title=, which it put on the surrounding <a> for whatever reason.
15:07:54 <elliott> Anyway, woo, we have a decent main page now.
15:08:05 <elliott> We can point people at it without pages of clarification as to wtf the wiki is about :P
15:08:42 <Gregor> Massively disappointing.
15:09:11 <Gregor> That was how I checked the date.
15:09:18 <Gregor> That's why I'm the only person who knew when it was March 32nd.
15:09:42 <elliott> Gregor: It was, in fact, March 32nd even four hours into April 2nd.
15:09:56 <Gregor> March 32nd is the longest day of the year.
15:10:13 <elliott> Duh, I know *that*. I did update the main page for it, you know.
15:10:53 <Gregor> We should add a "Did you know?" feature with the only caption under it being "... that this 'did you know' feature will never be updated?"
15:11:33 <elliott> That's the best idea I've heard all day except for all the good ideas I've heard all day.
15:11:57 <elliott> BTW, the lime sidebar was originally gonna have more navigational stuff in it, but it turns out I pretty much covered everything :P
15:12:09 <elliott> So it's just... trilime on lilac.
15:12:59 <elliott> With ugly aliased edges 8D
15:13:35 <Gregor> Those edges are the afterglow of a solidity matrix matrix-matrix multiplication.
15:16:37 <elliott> Gregor: btw I put your logs first in the community portal 8D
15:16:46 <elliott> Mostly because they have the pre-2011 logs without downloading a zip file.
15:17:30 <Gregor> Welcome to the future of tomorrow's yesterday.
15:23:51 <Gregor> Everyone come be locked in ##matrixofsolidity
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15:24:49 <elliott> <elliott> This channel is unofficial lies. #matrixofsolidity is the OFFICIAL matrix of solidity.
15:24:58 <Gregor> PS there is no talking in the matrix of solidity.
15:25:13 <elliott> You mean in the FAKE matrix of solidity.
15:26:32 <elliott> ChanServ is anti-solidity.
15:27:30 <Gregor> I can't decide if I prefer that there's no topic whatsoever.
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15:34:47 <elliott> Gregor: You think the matrix of solidity has this EARTHLY-PLANE concept of a "topic"?
15:35:00 <elliott> There is not "no topic", there is simply the lack of the concept of topic, just as the matrix of solidity lacks ifofgjfdg.
15:35:04 <elliott> All it has is solidity. And matrix.
15:35:29 <Gregor> And a lock, although that's outside the matrix and is what's keeping us in, it's not part of the matrix of solidity proper.
15:35:54 <elliott> Gregor: Uh, no. WE are the lock.
15:36:01 <elliott> We lock ourselves into the matrix of solidity, and cannot escape.
15:36:14 <elliott> Idiot. You are a naive festering moron on these matters. Speak no more!
15:36:19 <elliott> The unenlightened must perish.
15:39:25 -!- Gregor has set topic: Those who do not willingly lock themselves in the #matrixofsolidity (and enjoy it) will be swept away by the Hand of Yahweasel | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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15:45:24 <elliott> RIP zeptobot some time -- some other time
15:45:53 <Gregor> Speaking of, I think glogbot belongs in #matrixofsolidity
15:46:04 <Gregor> We wouldn't want to miss any of that.
15:46:36 <Gregor> !glogbot_join #matrixofsolidity
15:46:54 <elliott> One day, when all other IRC channels are gone, we will have to join by using cycles as a kind of morse code.
15:47:05 <elliott> Maybe I should ban everyone to prevent that.
15:47:25 <Gregor> But then how are we to be locked in our matrix of solidity?
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15:47:42 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'str'
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15:52:25 <elliott> Gregor: omg #matrixofsolidity is violating freenode policy D:
15:52:34 <elliott> no log link in topic or entry message :D
15:52:47 <Ilari> APNIC: 2k+/48 to Australia, /32 to India, 2x/32 to New Zealand, 1x/32 to Philippines
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15:53:08 <elliott> Gregor: It only listens to #esoteric.
15:54:03 <elliott> So anyway, my wifi keeps crapping out POSSIBLY BECAUSE OF TORRENTS?
15:54:16 <elliott> Vorpal: YOU CANNOT LEAVE YOUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
15:54:26 <Vorpal> elliott, nope. I found the key
15:54:34 <Ilari> Apparently that 2k to AU is actually a return of 2k addresses.
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15:54:45 <Vorpal> elliott, did he part too?
15:54:47 <elliott> I hate you so much I'm gonna implement more features
15:54:50 <elliott> That's how much I hate you
15:54:57 <Gregor> elliott: HALLO I WURVE FEKKING UP DER BOTS
15:55:07 <Vorpal> Ilari, wait what? Isn't APNIC out yet?
15:55:10 <elliott> btw, argument/type checking:
15:55:12 <elliott> if not isinstance(x, Pair) or not isinstance(x.car, Symbol) or not isinstance(x.cdr, Pair) or x.cdr.cdr is not NIL:
15:55:12 <elliott> return Symbol.intern('u a fuka')
15:55:14 <Vorpal> Ilari, was it a false alarm yesterday!?
15:56:02 <Ilari> Vorpal: As said, that 2k is apparently a return, not a real allocation.
15:56:45 <Vorpal> Ilari, you Australia returned it to APNIC?
15:58:35 <Ilari> Actually, not a return, a transfer.
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15:59:47 <elliott> Gregor: Nope. Those are SYMBOLS
16:00:03 <elliott> : (def "A wonderful place to live" 'Hell)
16:00:04 <zeptobot> -> "a wonderful place to live"
16:00:08 <elliott> : "A wonderful place to live"
16:00:09 <elliott> : '"A wonderful place to live"
16:00:10 <zeptobot> -> "a wonderful place to live"
16:00:17 <Gregor> : (def def '"Permission denied.")
16:00:17 <Ilari> Apparently APNIC screwed up a bit with those debogon blocks.
16:00:33 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Symbol' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:00:43 <Gregor> lol, not quite what I wanted, but I'll take it :P
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16:00:52 <Gregor> OK, I'm done redefining def :P
16:00:54 <elliott> No error handling yet or anything :P
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16:02:03 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:02:20 -!- zeptobot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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16:04:09 <elliott> Gregor: btw, all this insanity is working towards a function application system that changes if you change map :D
16:04:15 <elliott> Since it'll do (map eval args).
16:04:22 <Ilari> That is, those are real allocated blocks (e.g. the /10 "debogon" block was allocated to India (Block allocated to APNIC in India looked suspicious anyway, as APNIC is based on AU) but for few days had incorrect WHOIS info).
16:04:38 <zeptobot> -> ("like you a ho" "like you a ho" "like you a ho")
16:04:50 <Ilari> So there will be no /10 block return from that.
16:04:51 <elliott> Gregor wasn't expecting that.
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16:06:57 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:08:29 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:08:36 <elliott> : (id map quote '(42 42 42))
16:08:37 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:08:57 <Ilari> ... So APNIC is _really_ out (except for that reserved space inside 103/8 and perhaps some addresses currently too polluted to use).
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16:10:31 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
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16:11:08 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:13:24 -!- zeptobot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:13:45 -!- zeptobot has joined.
16:13:56 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:15:34 <zeptobot> ! ParseFail: Expected EOF but got )
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16:16:36 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:16:44 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:16:49 <elliott> Gregor: LOOK, YOU CAN BREAK EVERYTHING 8d
16:18:08 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, but apart from the missing stuff it looks better
16:18:25 <elliott> The missing stuff is deliberately omitted due to taking up space that could be used for useful navigational pointers for first-time visitors :P
16:18:28 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, aww, do it with CSS and <div>s :/
16:18:32 <elliott> <div> and <span> are blocked by the server.
16:18:37 <elliott> The best you can do is <p> and <b>.
16:19:06 <elliott> Additionally, the CSS required to get a two-equal-columns layout like that without "display: table" (giving the same result but with even stupider tags and more code) will be blocked by MediaWiki since it involves background images and shit.
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16:26:09 <elliott> TIME TO MAKE MY WIFI DIE AGAIN :DDDDDD
16:28:39 <Vorpal> <elliott> <div> and <span> are blocked by the server. <-- huh, they worked on other wikis I edited on
16:28:49 <Vorpal> well, div at least. Never really tried span
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16:30:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember there is a way to have two <div> with style floating, with background colour. And some sort of <hr> with special attributes to make it invisible and also force the placement of those floating things to work. clear: both or something iirc. Not sure if that would work with all the media wiki "fluff" around it
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16:32:19 <elliott> <Vorpal> <elliott> <div> and <span> are blocked by the server. <-- huh, they worked on other wikis I edited on
16:32:25 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember there is a way to have two <div> with style floating, with background colour. And some sort of <hr> with special attributes to make it invisible and also force the placement of those floating things to work. clear: both or something iirc. Not sure if that would work with all the media wiki "fluff" around it
16:32:29 <elliott> Vorpal: this is less hacky than a table?
16:33:06 <elliott> honestly, it's not like using a bunch of divs is any more semantic or easier for a screen reader than tables
16:33:27 <elliott> and if you use html 5 elements and css 3 to avoid all extraneous styling wrappers for perfect semanticity with perfect design
16:33:36 <elliott> you just wasted like five hours on something with absolutely zero benefit
16:36:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: this is less hacky than a table? <-- I didn't say that
16:37:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I tend to do simple designs. Think somewhat less fancy than http://cr.yp.to/ ;)
16:38:00 <Vorpal> actually, scratch that, I tend to set bg and fg colours with css.
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16:55:51 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
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17:28:59 <Gregor> All our base are belong to us!
17:29:53 <leBMD> So, I'm having issues with a Befunge program, and I was wondering if you might know the answer
17:30:15 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
17:30:24 <leBMD> I'm testing out the NCRS fingerprint with a simple print statement, but it's throwing itself into a constant loop.
17:30:26 <Gregor> Somebody might, and that somebody is almost assuredly on this channel, but that somebody is also almost assuredly not me X-P
17:30:47 <leBMD> I'll just post the code I've got to see if anyone can show me my error.
17:30:49 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(1I"lol"SR0I)@
17:31:15 <leBMD> it's supposed to only print once, but it goes on ad infinum.
17:31:28 <elliott> Vorpal, fizzie, Deewiant are the ones who know Befunge-98
17:31:40 <elliott> I don't count, I only implemented the damn thing
17:31:59 <elliott> leBMD: enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity :-)
17:32:01 <fizzie> Your "lol" should probably have a 0 underneath, at least.
17:32:02 <leBMD> I'm actually using Deewiant's interpreter right now
17:32:12 <elliott> that it doesn't support NCRS is immaterial
17:32:32 <fizzie> Otherwise I would think S will also pop the NCRS fingerprint-id and that 1 off, and then ) won't unload it but reflect instead.
17:34:08 <leBMD> hmm, now it isn't printing anything at all...
17:34:30 <leBMD> though thanks for the 0 suggestion, that's probably my problem
17:34:45 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(1I11M"lol"0SR0I)@
17:34:48 <elliott> oh thought that was a joke
17:34:54 <fizzie> Well, yes, you want 0"lol"S.
17:34:54 <elliott> <fizzie> Your "lol" should probably have a 0 underneath, at least.
17:35:10 <fizzie> Not "lol"0S; that will print the empty string and leave "lol" on the stack.
17:35:15 <elliott> leBMD: do you like our magnificent new wiki frontpage
17:35:37 <leBMD> it's pretty beautiful
17:35:41 <fizzie> (The 0I might also clear out the screen.)
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17:43:28 <Gregor> elliott: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1302671493/l50 lololololol
17:45:27 <Gregor> I'm going to replace "It remains to be seen whether this experiment will prove successful. " now :P
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17:49:07 <leBMD> well, if any of you guys know of an example program in Befunge that uses NCRS, I'd be grateful. So far I can't make heads or tails of what I'm doing wrong.
17:49:48 <Deewiant> http://iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology.html
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17:54:53 <Gregor> Deewiant: I NOTICE YOU HAVE NOT LOCKED YOURSELF IN THE MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
17:57:27 <Sgeo> "On August 9, 2007, in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, Johnson & Johnson (J&J) filed suit against the American Red Cross alleging trademark infringement.[22] The suit seeks to halt the placement of the Red Cross emblem on all first aid, safety and disaster preparedness products not specifically licensed by Johnson & Johnson. The suit also asks for the destruction of all currently existing non-J&J Red Cr
17:57:27 <Sgeo> oss emblem-bearing products of this type, and demands the American Red Cross pay punitive damages and J&J's legal fees."
17:57:30 <Sgeo> .....THE FUCK?
17:59:12 <leBMD> LOL MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BABIES LIVES
17:59:21 <leBMD> that's the J&J slogan.
18:01:13 <Gregor> Johnson & Johnson: A family-killing company.
18:01:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what was the outcome of it?
18:02:12 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblems_of_the_International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent_Movement#Johnson_.26_Johnson_v._American_Red_Cross
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18:02:50 <fizzie> That snippet should probably clarify that it was only about stuff Red Cross sold retail.
18:03:53 <fizzie> (Though they still rather deservedly lost.)
18:08:54 <leBMD> thanks, Deewiant. It's helping a good deal.
18:10:34 <Gregor> Wow, first time I've seen Mycology cause anything but pain and suffering ;)
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18:13:31 <leBMD> of course, I'm still getting an endless stream of "lol wut," but now it's organized and I can at least look at something else to see what's up.
18:13:31 <Gregor> But ... what is the news without ham?
18:14:06 <elliott> Gaah, connection lag, I hates it.
18:14:13 -!- news-ham has joined.
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18:14:16 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(n1Ina"tuw lol"SRnI)@
18:14:19 -!- news-ham has joined.
18:14:23 <elliott> Hey news-ham, you're my favourite news-giving ham. Give me some news right now.
18:14:31 <leBMD> I'm still not totally sure why it keeps looping, but I'm making progress.
18:14:39 <news-ham> Poverty 'hitting pupils' studies': Many pupils living in poverty come to school hungry, tired and in worn-out clothes, a survey by the teachers' union ATL suggests. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13081777
18:14:39 -!- news-ham has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:14:43 -!- news-ham has joined.
18:14:45 <elliott> Hey news-ham, you're my favourite news-giving ham. Give me some news right now.
18:14:51 <news-ham> Tories 'out of the comfort zone': The Conservatives say they have a programme that would take them "out of their comfort zone" as they publish their Welsh assembly manifesto. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-politics-13083291
18:14:59 <elliott> news-ham: More news please.
18:15:01 <news-ham> Comeback kid: Fidel Castro is well again, but does he still have power? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-latin-america-13047948
18:15:17 <elliott> newsham: I am afraid you are now surplus to requirements.
18:15:21 <leBMD> news-ham: More news please.
18:15:23 <news-ham> Croatians convicted of war crimes: Two Croatian military leaders are jailed for war crimes committed in the 1990s, provoking anger in Zagreb where many regard them as war heroes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-europe-13092438
18:15:24 <elliott> The News Ham delivers all we could possibly want.
18:15:48 <Gregor> news-ham: If you keep spewing news, I will KILL YOUR AUTHOR.
18:15:50 <news-ham> Clashes at mass protest in Syria: Security forces in the Syrian capital Damascus use tear gas and batons on thousands of anti-government protesters trying to march on the city centre. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13097926
18:16:11 <elliott> news-ham: Who's the sexiest
18:16:13 <news-ham> Winding-up order for Wrexham FC: Wrexham FC are issued with a winding up order by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over a debt of almost £200,000. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-13101239
18:16:18 <elliott> Incorrect, Wrexham FC is not the sexiest
18:17:12 <Gregor> Is it bestiality or necrophilia to have sex with ham?
18:17:24 <Deewiant> leBMD: What's on the stack at the ) has to be what's on the stack after a ( (well, it doesn't have to, but it usually is), and n clears the stack, so the stack is empty when you hit the ), so it reflects.
18:17:38 <Vorpal> wait, is news-ham a bot?
18:17:39 <news-ham> Defiant Yemen leader holds rally: Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh addresses large crowds in the capital, Sanaa, denouncing protesters as huge opposition rallies are held elsewhere. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13098338
18:17:47 <news-ham> Japan orders nuclear compensation: Japan orders the operator of the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant to pay provisional compensation to about 48,000 affected families. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-asia-pacific-13090304
18:17:53 <news-ham> Bail for Indian social activist: India's Supreme Court grants bail to leading public health specialist and human rights activist, Dr Binayak Sen. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-south-asia-13091521
18:18:06 <Vorpal> wait, is it triggered on highlight
18:18:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Stop pinging it then, you moron.
18:18:21 <elliott> The News Ham dispenses news when asked to.
18:18:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I beat you to that discovery
18:18:26 <elliott> That is its only purpose in life, apart from being a ham.
18:18:30 <Vorpal> elliott, who's idea is this?
18:18:30 <elliott> It achieves both admirably.
18:18:40 <elliott> Oh, it has a third purpose, which is to be written in PicoLisp. At that, too, it excels.
18:19:00 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't the last one a boolean?
18:19:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Uh. Is Regenaxer addressing you?
18:19:20 <Gregor> : (def gimmeastring '('"Foo?"))
18:19:20 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
18:19:23 <elliott> Vorpal: This is PH's idea; I have delightfully co-opted it and implemented it.
18:19:25 <Sgeo> elliott, because I've been speaking in there
18:19:29 <elliott> Gregor: I broke all applications of anything :P
18:19:32 <elliott> Sgeo: The agricultural thing :P
18:19:39 <Vorpal> elliott, how many bots in this channel now?
18:19:40 <elliott> Gregor: This then ripples to everything else.
18:19:47 <elliott> Gregor: Because the whole system is designed to use parts of it, even the primities :P
18:19:51 <Sgeo> I have no idea about agricutural stuff
18:20:02 <Gregor> elliott: Betcha if you rewrite PicoLisp in Fythe, it'll be faster and/or slower than the original implementation!
18:20:13 <elliott> Gregor: So e.g. any function that evaluates its arguments depends on eval, quote, and map.
18:20:18 <elliott> Also, PicoLisp is pretty fast for an interpreter :P
18:20:27 <elliott> I plan to write a mini-Lisp on Fythe when I get the chance though.
18:20:37 <Vorpal> elliott, why not make it JIT?
18:20:40 <elliott> Sgeo: <Regenaxer> btw, are you still working on that agricultural system?
18:20:43 <Vorpal> elliott, also, got a link to picolisp?
18:20:47 <Sgeo> elliott, no idea
18:21:13 <Sgeo> software-lab.de/doc/ which is not linked to from anywhere
18:21:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Why not make what JIT? Fythe?
18:21:24 <Sgeo> http://home.picolisp.com
18:21:32 <elliott> Vorpal: http://picolisp.com/5000/-2.html is the PicoLisp web site.
18:21:56 <elliott> PicoLisp is highly reliant on eval.
18:22:00 <elliott> JITting wouldn't help much *shrug*
18:22:29 <Vorpal> elliott, and for Fythe?
18:22:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Fythe is already a JIT ......
18:22:50 <elliott> That's its whole entire reason for existing.
18:23:11 <Gregor> That reminds me, I want to write the World's Worst JIT: A library that you spit C into, it executes gcc -O3 on it and dlopens the result, then gives you the function ref :P
18:23:22 <elliott> I think that's been done :P
18:23:43 <Gregor> ARGUABLY if you use it in concert with a better fast JIT, it's not even that bad, it's your hotspot JIT :P
18:24:05 <elliott> Anyway, news-ham likes newsham, foul rumours to the contrary notwithstanding.
18:24:06 <news-ham> Chile to exhume ex-leader Allende: A Chilean court orders the exhumation of Salvador Allende to determine whether the former leader was murdered or killed himself. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-latin-america-13096836
18:24:15 <elliott> In fact, it likes it so much that it wants to tab-complete whenever newsham was.
18:24:18 <elliott> And also, have newsham's name.
18:24:21 <elliott> And also, replace newsham's skin.
18:24:37 <Vorpal> hm, I wonder if it would be possible to JIT eval. Of course not in general, but perhaps for some patterns of eval it might be possible to somehow speed up their execution in a JIT-like fashion. Say if you have something (obviously not in lisp this...) like eval(name_of_variable + " := something");
18:24:54 <Vorpal> elliott, it does that?
18:24:56 <elliott> or, what you said made no sense
18:25:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: See: My upcoming paper at ECOOP :P
18:25:19 <Vorpal> elliott, what I'm saying is that a JIT could optimise *some* instances of eval.
18:25:20 <elliott> Vorpal has the retarded ideas, Gregor has the retarded implementation.
18:25:28 <elliott> I snark from the sidelines, retardedly.
18:25:39 <Gregor> elliott: Naw, the paper just reports on the real-world reported code and gives some suggestions.
18:26:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, I'll just give my time machine a whirl, and come back when I read it then
18:26:36 <leBMD> it seems to be reflecting at R for some reason.
18:26:37 <elliott> btw http://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton is an awesome language and everyone should check it out right now.
18:26:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, back. Very interesting.
18:27:01 <elliott> news-ham: You're the old ham.
18:27:02 <news-ham> Winding-up order for Wrexham FC: Wrexham FC are issued with a winding up order by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over a debt of almost £200,000. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-13101239
18:27:37 <Gregor> # Programs use the Unicode box-drawing characters to create a graphical representation of data flow. BEST EVER
18:27:47 <elliott> BBC News comments: unbelievably stupid?
18:27:49 <elliott> "As I gay man I wouldn't feel comfortable if two men were kissing if I was in a straight pub with members of my family for instance - so I agree with the landlord's judgement . I believe tolerance should flow both ways."
18:27:57 <elliott> TIL there is such a thing as a "straight pub"
18:28:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I don't think my idea is retarded as such. It might however not be very useful to implement what I suggested. Depends on how common optimisable eval constructs are. Lots of trade-offs there
18:28:37 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(1Ia"tuw lol"SR0I)@
18:29:01 <Gregor> elliott: There's no such thing as a straight pub because of the REPRESSIVE HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA.
18:29:28 <Vorpal> leBMD, I believe 0I will clear the screen. You might want to make it wait before going there.
18:29:36 <Vorpal> hm wait, maybe that is what R does
18:29:46 <Vorpal> (I don't remember the details of every fingerprint)
18:29:49 <leBMD> R refreshes, but it's also reflecting for some reason.
18:30:25 <Vorpal> leBMD, well, check if it takes any parameters, then check what you have on stack. If you are using ccbi (pretty sure you said you were), it has a good debugger.
18:30:26 <leBMD> 0C clears the screen
18:31:24 <Vorpal> leBMD, well, 0I will clear the screen most likely, since it will call ncurses functions to restore the state of the terminal. On my screen that results in clearing clearing the screen and getting back whatever was there before.
18:31:41 <Vorpal> I suppose this might vary between different terminal emulators
18:32:20 <leBMD> well, the lines are showing up, it just shows 20 lines of "tuw lollol wut" (my original string is "lol wut"
18:32:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, fythe looks extremely interesting. Do you have any sorts of benchmarks comparing it to other JIT engines, such as the llvm one?
18:33:00 <fizzie> "SRCN"4(1Ia"tuw lol"SR0I)@ is again missing the 0 for the string.
18:33:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: Not enough implemented.
18:33:20 <Gregor> Well, actually as of quite recently basically everything is implemented :P
18:33:25 <Gregor> But no benchmarks have been yet.
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18:34:27 <elliott> news-ham science_and_technology
18:34:28 <news-ham> VIDEO: Webscape: Cartoons and synthesisers: How British protests are being affected by the digital revolution http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13078297
18:34:34 <leBMD> if I replace a with 0, then it's blank for a second before an explosion of text.
18:35:20 <fizzie> http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#NCRS doesn't list R at all. (Of course NCRS is not a RCS-defined fingerprint, so that's not definitive.)
18:35:29 <Vorpal> Gregor, what sort of optimisation does it perform? Stuff like optimising on the fly for common cases is quite interesting I find.
18:35:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: Fythe only has a fast template JIT thusfar.
18:36:40 <leBMD> it lists R at the 3rd bullet point.
18:36:49 <leBMD> I've been using http://sprunge.us/AQBP
18:36:55 <leBMD> so that may be my error
18:36:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, so it doesn't look at the generated code to try to eliminate non-needed instructions? Say, removing a zeroing of a register that is in this case already zero?
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18:37:04 <fizzie> Well, ccbi-2.1/src/ccbi/fingerprints/jvh/ncrs.d seems to implement R, so that's all right.
18:37:06 -!- news-ham has joined.
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18:37:24 <news-ham> Lecturers vow to fight job cuts: Andy Murray cruises through to a semi-final against Rafael Nadal with a straight-sets defeat of Frederico Gil in the Monte Carlo Masters. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/tennis/13096672.stm
18:37:30 <news-ham> The story of our rooms: A pub in London's Soho locks its doors before a planned "kiss-in" protest by hundreds of gay rights' protesters. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13085653
18:37:36 <elliott> hmm, so that's not working then
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18:38:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: Like I said, it's a template JIT, it does no optimizations of the generated code. I'm focusing on the fast JIT for the moment, a good hotspot JIT will (might) come later.
18:38:11 <news-ham> Debt advisers closed down by OFT: Popular music streaming service Spotify has put caps on the amount of free music listeners can have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13081777
18:38:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Got a better news source with RSS?
18:38:27 <news-ham> VIDEO: Film found in church 'reveals Nazi guilt': Severe storms leave at least nine people dead and destroy school buildings and dozens of homes in the US states of Arkansas and Oklahoma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-13098246
18:38:35 <elliott> That doesn't sound like arts.
18:38:52 <news-ham> VIDEO: Royal wedding plans, US style: The Republic of Ireland's progress on cutting its deficit has been approved by international authorities, a condition of its 85bn-euro bail-out. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-south-asia-13091521
18:38:52 <fizzie> elliott: news.google.com has some feeds, http://www.google.com/support/news/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=59255
18:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd say it is broken indeed
18:39:11 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no sports.
18:39:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: However, the other caveat is that Fythe itself is actually about as low-level as it can be while providing a few vital guarantees for higher-level languages, so there might actually not be too much to optimize at that level.
18:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, oh okay, shouldn't it give an error message then?
18:39:37 <elliott> Sports have a feed, actually.
18:39:40 <elliott> I'll integrate that in a minute.
18:39:43 <elliott> fizzie: That as good as BBC? :P
18:39:44 <news-ham> Vettel heads Hamilton in practice: Hamas condemns the murder of Italian pro-Palestinian activist Vittorio Arrigoni, found hanged in Gaza City hours after his abduction. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13100390
18:39:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, right. Common sub-expression elimination and some peephole optimisation might still be of interest though
18:40:06 <leBMD> the tracer seems to freeze up once it steps past I.
18:40:14 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I mean, it's probably more variable and has more sources; of course not if by "good" you mean the content too.
18:40:21 <Gregor> Vorpal: Technically a smart transform can do CSE at a higher level than Fythe IR >: )
18:40:21 <Vorpal> leBMD, oh right, ncurses messes up the terminal
18:40:40 <Gregor> Vorpal: Dynamic optimizations are what I'm more interested in *shrugs*
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18:41:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, dead-store elimination and peephole both make sense at a very low level though.
18:41:48 <news-ham> Live scores - Magners League: Coachellla unveils groundbreaking new stage and light show http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/football/13092511.stm
18:41:53 <Vorpal> not sure about loop invariant, probably better done at a higher level
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18:42:09 <leBMD> football is not artistic
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18:42:20 <Gregor> Vorpal: Anyway, much still waits to be seen *shrugs*
18:42:23 <news-ham> G20 finance ministers meet in US: China's economy continues to boom as inflation accelerates to the fastest rate since 2008. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13096021
18:42:30 <Gregor> news-ham porn god damn it porn
18:42:32 <news-ham> Stalled revolts: British artist Tracey Emin salutes a "spectacular" new gallery in Margate its founders hope will help regenerate the Kent seaside town. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/magazine-12483492
18:42:51 <Vorpal> Gregor, bbc? porn? no. I doubt it.
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18:42:56 <Gregor> pornnews.com/feeds/rss
18:42:56 <leBMD> news-ham, give me sound financial advice.
18:42:57 <news-ham> Polar bear Mercedes put to sleep: Lecturers at the University of Salford say they could strike over plans to cut more than 200 posts. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13097926
18:43:02 <elliott> oerjan: I MADE AN AWESOME NEW HOME PAGE FOR US
18:43:23 <leBMD> the moral of that news story: the polar bear is like my savings account.
18:43:30 <oerjan> news-ham: your hyphen is fooling NO ONE
18:43:32 <news-ham> FBI closes in on zombie PC gang: Justice Minister David Ford says he will set up an independent review into the allegations made by the chief executive of the Police Ombudsman office. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/formula_one/13090220.stm
18:43:38 <leBMD> I must kill it at the university level.
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18:43:59 <news-ham> HEY!... almost as good as you dying!
18:44:00 <news-ham> FE colleges 'charging lower fees': Popular music streaming service Spotify has put caps on the amount of free music listeners can have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13091269
18:44:11 <elliott> oerjan: What are you implying to my good old friend The News Ham?
18:44:14 <news-ham> HEY!... almost as good as you dying!
18:44:15 <news-ham> Ex-EastEnders star joins Corrie: Duke, Dash, Digby, Pickle - what was the first Dulux dog called? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13086654
18:44:16 <elliott> He dispenses news, he's a ham, what more could you want!
18:44:20 <elliott> WHY WON'T IT FILTER PROPERLY
18:44:38 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:44:39 <leBMD> news-ham, will you go to prom with me?
18:44:40 <news-ham> HEY!... almost as good as you dying!
18:44:40 <news-ham> 'A tonic to the nation': Andy Murray cruises through to a semi-final against Rafael Nadal with a straight-sets defeat of Frederico Gil in the Monte Carlo Masters. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/health-11442887
18:44:42 <elliott> oerjan: express approval of my hard work kthxplz
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18:45:20 <news-ham> HEY!sportssports... almost as good as you dying!
18:45:20 <news-ham> VIDEO: Five hours to clean one boot for big day: A man jailed for murdering a mentally ill man in a hammer attack in Glasgow has his conviction quashed. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13099147
18:45:29 <elliott> Sports, sports, almost as good as you dying.
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18:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, try to run the relevant function from a REPL? Might work better
18:45:58 <elliott> Or maybe your mom might work better just SAYING
18:46:00 <Vorpal> or even step through it in a debugger
18:46:05 <Vorpal> debuggers *are* useful
18:46:10 <leBMD> that could be a new irc bot, your mom.
18:46:14 <elliott> i don't even know picolisp's debugger.
18:46:24 <leBMD> "your mom, what should I do?" "your homework!"
18:47:22 <Vorpal> elliott, see, the REPL *was* useful
18:47:35 -!- news-ham has joined.
18:47:38 <news-ham> VIDEO: Car thief crashes through level crossing: The sister of a girl thought to have been murdered in a so-called "honour killing" admits robbing her family at their Cheshire home. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-latin-america-13047948
18:47:55 <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery!
18:48:05 <leBMD> it was modern art.
18:48:17 <Vorpal> well, now it is broken it seems
18:48:53 <leBMD> well, I'd better go do things like eat lunch and hang out with women or something of the sort. Seeya!
18:49:11 <leBMD> news-ham live long and prosper
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18:49:34 <Vorpal> who let the star trek nerd in?
18:50:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: Hey, you're not allowed to talk, Mr. No-I-Don't-Want-To-Be-Locked-In-A-Matrix-Of-Solidity
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18:51:09 <elliott_> oerjan: do you love the main page or do you love the main page
18:51:25 <Gregor> <oerjan> INSUFFICIENT DAY OF THE DAY OF THE DAY
18:51:35 <oerjan> our site policies, so meta
18:51:45 <elliott_> IT'S TAIIIILORRRRRREEED TO FIIIIRST TIIIIME VIIISIIIITOOOOOORS
18:51:51 <elliott_> The matrix of solidity is there if you look closely.
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18:52:16 <news-ham> David Jason returning to comedy: Popular music streaming service Spotify has put caps on the amount of free music listeners can have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13092126
18:52:26 <news-ham> VIDEO: Royal wedding plans, US style: Hamas condemns the murder of Italian pro-Palestinian activist Vittorio Arrigoni, found hanged in Gaza City hours after his abduction. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13091091
18:52:38 <news-ham> Keys to play Albert Hall concert: Coachellla unveils groundbreaking new stage and light show http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13095810
18:52:39 <news-ham> EU's biofuel targets 'unethical': EDF Energy gave the BBC special access to Sizewell B to reassure people that Japan's Fukushima disaster could not happen here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_9450000/newsid_9456600/9456640.stm
18:52:41 <news-ham> Brain scans show Alzheimer's risk: EDF Energy gave the BBC special access to Sizewell B to reassure people that Japan's Fukushima disaster could not happen here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13056862
18:52:45 <news-ham> Khan ready for long break from UK: World champion Sebastian Vettel heads McLaren's Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button in Friday practice at the Chinese Grand Prix. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/sport1/hi/rugby_league/live_scores/default.stm
18:52:50 <news-ham> McIlroy shares lead in Malaysia: Northern Ireland's Rory McIlroy moves into the joint lead of the Malaysia Open after shooting a second-round 64. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/sport1/hi/rugby_union/live_scores/4776425.stm
18:52:52 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: Hey, you're not allowed to talk, Mr. No-I-Don't-Want-To-Be-Locked-In-A-Matrix-Of-Solidity <-- sure I am
18:53:06 <news-ham> VIDEO: ISS crew phone home on space anniversary: A polar bear and cub emerge from hibernation in Alaska to find a construction site over their den. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/health-13047332
18:53:18 <Gregor> Is it just me or is there a disconnect between the part before the ":" and the part after the ":"
18:53:38 <Gregor> EU's biofuel targets 'unethical': EDF Energy gave the BBC special access to Sizewell B to reassure people that Japan's Fukushima disaster could not happen here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_9450000/newsid_9456600/9456640.stm <-- lolwut
18:54:11 <Gregor> news-ham PORNO PORNO PORNO
18:54:13 <news-ham> 7 days quiz: An Italian pro-Palestinian activist is found dead in the Gaza Strip hours after being abducted, local security officials say. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13091091
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18:54:27 <news-ham> Royal Opera announces new season: London's Royal Opera House announces its programme for the new season, including an Olympic theme and a celebration of Placido Domingo's career. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13092146
18:54:38 <Gregor> news-ham PORNO PORNO PORNO
18:54:39 <news-ham> Pollution hits EU wildlife havens: Air pollution is damaging 60% of Europe's prime wildlife sites in meadows, forests and heaths, a team of scientists warns. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13094597
18:54:58 <elliott_> oerjan: SRSLY THOUGH I require more praise for my efforts
18:55:31 <elliott_> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
18:55:35 <HackEgo> 366) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
18:55:38 <Gregor> elliott_: You skipped "1" btw
18:56:02 <Gregor> "I predict revision in 3...2..." "...0"
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18:56:17 <news-ham> VIDEO: Bubble car business takes off: Father and daughter team of Alan and Emma Evans, have developed a scale model version of the 1950s bubble car that is proving a huge hit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13088553
18:56:48 <news-ham> Stale beer's chemistry examined: The exact chemical recipe of stale beer is elucidated, and researchers suggest simple ways to prevent the fresh taste of beer degrading. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13067547
18:57:10 <news-ham> Fujitsu offers UK fast rural net: Fujitsu is to create a superfast broadband network for rural parts of the UK, rivalling BT's service. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13060548
18:57:15 <news-ham> Spotify cuts back on free music: Popular music streaming service Spotify has put caps on the amount of free music listeners can have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13078302
18:57:37 <elliott_> http://sprunge.us/DjOI ;; This is waaaaay too short for what it does.
18:57:51 <elliott_> Even Python would have ridiculously pointless bureaucracy for the XML handling.
18:58:27 <news-ham> Osborne and deputy clash over AV: Tory Chancellor George Osborne clashes with his Lib Dem deputy in a row over the alternative vote referendum. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-politics-13071737
18:58:34 <news-ham> VIDEO: Blackberry and Motorola take on iPad: Rory Cellan-Jones tries out the new high end tablets hoping to take a bight out of Apple?s market. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13058814
18:59:35 <elliott_> I should make it randomly substitute Onion headlines.
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19:04:14 <news-ham> New Music Experience: Coachellla unveils groundbreaking new stage and light show http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13091269
19:04:19 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:05:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_: OMG make it invoked by "what are the haps my friends".
19:05:16 <news-ham> Ducks' bill colour gives STD clue: Ducks use bill colour to determine their mates' sexual health, according to scientists. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9454000/9454586.stm
19:05:44 <news-ham> Road to Libya: The key events leading UK into military action http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-politics-12821505
19:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I realised two things just now, one surprising in a stupid way, the other gobsmacking.
19:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The first is that Dakota Fanning is in fact less than a year older than me.
19:06:54 <elliott_> The second is that she is therefore underage and you're going to prison for what you've done.
19:07:11 -!- news-ham has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:07:17 -!- news-ham has joined.
19:07:20 <elliott_> What are the haps my friends? The haps relating to SCIENCE?
19:07:21 <news-ham> VIDEO: Trio of jaguar cubs charms Russia: A zoo in St Petersburg is celebrating the arrival of jaguar cub triplets - a very rare occurrence when the animals are bread in captivity. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13077955
19:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The second is that I can't have been more than 11 when I saw the posters for the Tom Cruise War of the Worlds film and thought "this'll never live up to the rock opera."
19:07:33 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Your wish, it is had.
19:07:52 <elliott_> BTW, the topics the News Ham is aware of:
19:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Exzoo-favourite-Mercedes-the-polar.6752264.jp
19:08:12 <elliott_> World, UK, business, politics, health, edu/education, sci/science, tech/technology, ent/entertainment/arts, sport/sports.
19:08:19 <elliott_> news-ham: Sprots. What is with them.
19:08:19 <news-ham> London Met slashes degree courses: London Metropolitan University says it is to cut hundreds of courses so that it can survive financially when tuition fees are increased. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13098705
19:08:23 <news-ham> Vettel heads Hamilton in practice: World champion Sebastian Vettel heads McLaren's Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button in Friday practice at the Chinese Grand Prix. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/sport1/hi/formula_one/13090220.stm
19:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> news-ham: what are the haps my friends. The technology ones specifically.
19:08:38 <news-ham> Sony considers two-week shutdown: Sony Corporation is considering shutting down some of its premises in Japan because of the ongoing power shortages. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/13075977
19:08:39 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: ARTICLE WAS NOT ABOUT TRAMS, DISAPPOINTED
19:08:50 <elliott_> You don't need to ping him if you're asking what the haps be.
19:09:03 <elliott_> "There is no such thing as bear Heaven. Likewise there is puppy or kitten Heaven. The bear will decompose naturally."
19:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I am going to start blaming all the stories on the trams.
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19:14:47 <elliott_> what do you think of the WONDERFUL NEW MAIN PAGE
19:15:24 <ais523> I haven't looked at it yet
19:15:31 <ais523> but the mere fact that the question was asked worries me
19:15:39 <elliott_> I redesigned our wiki's main page because it sucked.
19:16:05 <elliott_> Half of it was memes because of me, the rest was unordered with important stuff close to things like zomg wiki preservation and site policy.
19:16:13 <elliott_> And also no clear indication of what the site's actually about.
19:16:15 <elliott_> So I made THE BEST MAIN PAGE EVER.
19:16:25 <ais523> gah, that right sidebar
19:16:32 <ais523> it's what made people abandon Wikia in droves
19:16:32 <elliott_> IT WAS GOING TO HAVE MEANINGFUL THINGS IN!
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19:16:56 <ais523> exactly, and it makes the page really hard to read
19:16:58 <elliott_> (When it was going to have meaningful things in it, it was at the left.)
19:17:13 <elliott_> Unless your browser is about 3 pixels wide I guess.
19:17:14 <ais523> because you keep getting attracted to it rather than the actual text
19:17:22 <ais523> if it was full of text, you'd be able to ignore it
19:17:33 <elliott_> Would you prefer I swap the backgrounds? :p
19:17:46 <ais523> just get rid of it altogether, probably
19:17:54 <elliott_> Naw, the page would look boring without it :)
19:17:55 <ais523> you can still limit the text width if you like
19:18:08 <elliott_> I'm not doing it to limit the text width, I'm doing it because it makes it look nice :-P
19:18:11 <ais523> bear in mind that there's a left sidebar, and it works differently
19:18:16 <ais523> it doesn't make it look nice, it makes it unreadable
19:18:48 <elliott_> ais523: You are the first person to complain about it. If you are not the only person to complain about it, I will eat my hat. I find your blanket statement of "unreadable" unrealistic :P
19:19:28 <ais523> Gregor: agree with me quickly, will you?
19:19:37 <ais523> elliott_: it's an accent bar, and a really annoying one at that
19:19:39 <elliott_> (This isn't me disregarding what you are saying, this is me saying that "it makes the text absolutely unreadable, this is why people left Wikia!!!" is an overreaction and I'm not going to respond to it because it's as close to trolling as you get.)
19:20:00 <ais523> well, I find it hard to read
19:20:15 <ais523> it takes a lot of concentration to even get past the line wrapping on the first line
19:20:21 <ais523> you start reading it, then sidebar, then you forget the start of the sentence
19:21:04 <ais523> also, disguising an internal link as an external link to IRC means that people without IRC clients might not try to click on it
19:21:14 <elliott_> ais523: Would I be correct in thinking you'd find it less annoying if it were on the left, because you'd not run into sidebar on line-wrapping?
19:21:15 <ais523> that formatting would be perfectly sane if it didn't already mean something different in MediaWiki
19:21:19 <elliott_> Also, I haven't disguised anything.
19:21:26 <elliott_> The question mark is unlinked.
19:21:31 <ais523> although having a useful sidebar on the left, followed by a pointless sidebar, would be a bit silly
19:21:34 <elliott_> I added the icon only because it was really easy to miss otherwise.
19:21:37 <ais523> and I agree that the formatting isn't exactly the same
19:21:57 <elliott_> How many MediaWiki sites even have IRC links, anyway :P
19:22:15 <elliott_> Anyway, apart from this evidently-contentious-by-one-person sidebar, it's a hell of a lot better than the previous page :P
19:22:54 <ais523> I agree that the content is better
19:22:55 <fizzie> The IRC_icon.gif did make me think twice before clicking (and check the URL), because I wondered if it would launch a IRC client.
19:23:24 <elliott_> That IRC placing is a placeholder.
19:23:31 <elliott_> I'm trying to figure out the best way to introduce it into the layout so that it
19:23:39 <elliott_> (1) Doesn't appear to people before the actual intro, but
19:23:45 <elliott_> (2) Is noticeable if you don't pay attention to the meta crap at the bottom :P
19:24:31 <fizzie> As far as content goes, it feels somehow very modern and HCI-y.
19:25:42 <elliott_> I used the time-tested technique of "disguise a list of links as conversational by rephrasing 'Hey check out this it is cool' in a different way for each bullet".
19:28:35 <elliott_> ais523: Anyway, I'm fully open to suggestions wrt the sidebar-that-never-got-any-useful-content, it's just that I'd like it to look a little more visually interesting than it would be if I just removed it *shrug*
19:28:54 <elliott_> news-ham: What's going on in... politics?
19:28:55 <news-ham> Who's who: The cabinet: A guide to who's doing what in David Cameron's Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/uk_politics/8675705.stm
19:29:13 <ais523> a watermarked background might be interesting
19:29:21 <ais523> but I'm not sure if you can do that in MediaWiki
19:29:28 <ais523> especially if you can't use <div> or <span>
19:29:39 <ais523> hmm, is news-ham a bot?
19:29:41 <news-ham> Winding-up order for Wrexham FC: Wrexham FC are issued with a winding up order by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over a debt of almost £200,000. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-13101239
19:29:59 <elliott_> A ham that is written in PicoLisp and dispenses news.
19:30:05 <news-ham> Orchestra to record Games anthems: The London Philharmonic Orchestra is to record the national anthems of all 205 countries participating in the 2012 Olympics. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13093562
19:30:21 <elliott_> ais523: MediaWiki filters out url(anything) generally :P
19:30:30 <elliott_> I could manually watermarki...
19:30:39 <elliott_> ais523: What if I moved the Useless Sidebar to the top or bottom?
19:30:45 <elliott_> If the top, I could pull the Esolang title in.
19:31:12 <ais523> because the side sidebar makes the page tall enough that you can scroll it out of the way
19:31:40 <elliott_> ais523: OK, confirm or deny: You are implying that a header having a deeper colour than the page content distracts you to the point of having to scroll it away?
19:32:01 <ais523> not always, but sometimes
19:32:15 <ais523> what I hate to the point of scrolling away at the top is fake toolbars
19:32:33 <ais523> but I meant that if something can be scrolled away, it doesn't really matter whether it annoys me or not, because if it does I can get rid of it
19:33:40 <elliott_> At the top ain't gonna work out, too much dud whitespace wrt. the title. I'll try the bottom.
19:38:48 <elliott_> ais523: what do you think about the current version?
19:38:51 <elliott_> Slightly work in progress, but
19:39:49 <ais523> it's good in an absolute sense, and better in a relative sense
19:40:32 * elliott_ tries to make the trilime go to the bottom of the page
19:43:10 <elliott_> ais523: btw, what was that hack to hide the "Main Page" title?
19:43:19 <elliott_> I forget the number of pixels you have to go up
19:46:20 <elliott_> wow, making something go to the bottom is non-trivial
19:48:03 <elliott_> or are the limes distracting now :D
19:49:20 <elliott_> really? i find the limes actually distracting now.
19:49:41 <elliott_> ugh, ais523, you're obscuring the history of {{lowercase}} with this new {{lowercase title}} page circa 2007 :)
19:49:52 <elliott_> time for a shitload of edits to User:ehird/sandbox
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19:55:18 <elliott_> ok, final revision for now -- oh look it fucked up
19:55:52 <elliott_> it worked in userspace because of the "go back to X"
19:56:58 <elliott_> hope it's to ais523's satisfaction now :P
19:57:24 <ais523> it's failing to covert two/three pixels of "Main Page"
19:57:59 <ais523> so I fear your hack is font-size dependent
19:58:02 <ais523> the one on Wikipedia was
19:58:05 <elliott_> I'll just let the page title stay, then
19:58:10 <ais523> which is why they stopped using it
19:58:38 <elliott_> Sgeo: what did you say in #picolisp, i must know
19:59:07 <Sgeo> elliott_, something about how I'm using Windows at home and sshing into my school's Linux system to play with PicoLisp
19:59:12 <Sgeo> But that was a while ago
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20:02:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, what, are they annoyed at Sgeo or what?
20:02:58 <Sgeo> Vorpal, no, just told me to set up a Linux VM
20:04:55 <news-ham> 7 days quiz: Duke, Dash, Digby, Pickle - what was the first Dulux dog called? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/magazine-13068655
20:07:11 -!- atrapado has joined.
20:08:00 <elliott_> atrapado. hey, he's that old guy!
20:08:18 <elliott_> am i thinking of atrapado? maybe not
20:10:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, you want me to check in logs if he has been here before or something?
20:10:53 -!- baboolatw_ has joined.
20:11:07 <elliott_> that'll teach me to put the irc channel on the main page
20:11:43 <Vorpal> => select tstamp from irc.logs where nick = 'atrapado' order by tstamp limit 1;
20:11:43 <elliott_> well i'm assuming that's where baboolatw_ came from :)
20:12:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, so yes he or someone with the same nick has been here before
20:13:50 <elliott_> i _think_ we may be scaring baboolatw_ off.
20:13:59 <elliott_> especially if he's expecting esotericke magicke.
20:14:15 <Vorpal> well, this channel is about esoteric programming languages
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20:24:39 <zzo38> Yes, is generally English. Sometimes we find stuff in non-English, but this channel is for English typing please
20:27:35 <oklopol> oko away your worries okay
20:37:27 <Vorpal> FINALLY. *why* is it so hard to modify the url of a search provider in firefox
20:38:13 <Vorpal> you need to edit /usr/lib/firefox-4.0/searchplugins/google.xml *and* search.json in your firefox profile directory to make it work.
20:38:26 <Vorpal> I presume not the latter if you don't have an existing profile
20:40:28 <fizzie> Yes, it's a bit strange that they haven't added any sort of "edit"/"specify new" feature for the "manage search engines" GUI.
20:40:48 <elliott_> ais523: please enter your #matrixofsolidity
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20:41:29 <olsner> oklopol: oklokloklokloklo
20:41:38 <Vorpal> curl: (52) Empty reply from server <-- strange failure mode
20:42:01 <olsner> elliott: Yes, is generally English.
20:42:22 <olsner> elliott: in other words, please elaborate?
20:42:44 <olsner> <elliott_> Arm is a moron/troll.
20:44:05 -!- baboolatw_ has left ("Leaving").
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20:46:34 <elliott> o news-ham, what is going on in the world?
20:46:34 <news-ham> Doubts over Gbagbo ally's arrest: The whereabouts of Charles Ble Goude, a key ally of deposed Ivory Coast leader Laurent Gbagbo, are unclear, after a spokesman withdraws a statement saying he had been arrested. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-africa-13093017
20:46:40 <elliott> but news-ham, what of the UK?
20:46:42 <news-ham> Newspaper review: A scoop in the Times leads the way for Friday's papers http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13090201
20:46:56 <elliott> ah. and of artsy matters. what are the haps my friends, in that area?
20:46:57 <news-ham> Pratchett to probe assisted death: Writer Sir Terry Pratchett is to participate in a BBC Two documentary about assisted suicide, it is announced. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13088111
20:47:30 <Vorpal> elliott, what in that line did it highlight on?
20:48:46 <Sgeo> Can we approximate how muc... h... eep
20:48:52 <olsner> ergh :/ that's more spam than I've made since 9 am this morning
20:49:13 <Sgeo> How much longer he has
20:50:27 <Vorpal> also "Pratchett to probe assisted death", who writes this kind of titles? Does anyone uses that sort of wording outside news?
20:50:58 <Vorpal> (specifically I'm considering the use of "probe" there a bit strange)
20:51:09 <elliott> <Sgeo> Can we approximate how muc... h... eep
20:51:20 <elliott> He's planning to off himself before he dies of it, anyway
20:51:33 <elliott> Vorpal: "what are the haps my friends" triggers it because yes
20:51:34 <news-ham> VIDEO: Bubble car business takes off: Father and daughter team of Alan and Emma Evans, have developed a scale model version of the 1950s bubble car that is proving a huge hit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13088553
20:51:57 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, but has he decided at what point he'll do it, or something?
20:52:08 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't think so. What was that "muc... h... eep" about
20:52:56 <elliott> news-ham: Educate me about scis.
20:52:57 <news-ham> Colleges 'axing courses and jobs': A survey of colleges in England for two unions suggests many have already been cutting courses and jobs. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13003726
20:53:01 <Vorpal> elliott, Is it just me, or does newspapers use a curious variant of English in titles?
20:53:09 <oklopol> what if suddenly, everyone except you was immortal
20:53:17 <elliott> news-ham: Scis! What's they 'bout
20:53:19 <news-ham> VIDEO: New funding to clean up waterways: Voluntary groups are being invited to bid for funding to clean up England's waterways and create better habitats for wildlife http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13059545
20:53:34 <elliott> seriously though wtf this bot is so tiny
20:53:59 <elliott> (THE TININESS: http://sprunge.us/GhYf)
20:54:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what about news paper English?!
20:54:46 <Vorpal> elliott, <Vorpal> elliott, Is it just me, or does newspapers use a curious variant of English in titles?
20:55:15 <elliott> BUT I USE A CURIOUS VARIANT OF LISP IN BOT!
20:55:28 <Vorpal> elliott, for example, would you ever use the wording "Pratchett to probe assisted death"?
20:55:50 <elliott> Yes, it gives me the hilarious mental image of Terry Prachett/assisted death slash fiction.
20:59:18 <news-ham> Do all languages share features dictated by brain?: A long-standing idea that languages share universal features dictated by human brain structure is cast into doubt. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13049700
20:59:27 <elliott> Vorpal: the topic of discussion is now the news ham's code, btw.
21:01:18 <Vorpal> elliott, it is rather short yes. what is de
21:01:30 <elliott> function definition. which is the same thing as list definition.
21:01:43 <elliott> (de x ...) is like (define x '(...)) in scheme
21:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, not enough lisp macros in there
21:01:53 <elliott> EVERYTHING in PicoLisp is a macro
21:02:01 <elliott> PicoLisp to Scheme: (de id (x) x) -> (define id '((x) x))
21:02:16 <Sgeo> (Paraphrase) lambda is spelled q u o t e
21:02:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't see you defining your own macro anywhere
21:02:35 <elliott> Vorpal: That's because you don't know PicoLisp
21:02:49 <Vorpal> elliott, quite, where is your macro. I'd like to know what they look like
21:02:50 <elliott> randArticle is a macro. Well, it's a macro that behaves exactly like a function, but functions are just macros in PicoLisp.
21:03:06 <elliott> Topics is also a macro that does nothing useful, because lists are macros/functions X-D
21:03:07 <Sgeo> Isn't there some thing you do in the argument list that makes it not evaluate the argument?
21:03:17 <elliott> Sgeo: Yeah, make the arg list not a list I think :P
21:03:24 <elliott> i.e. '(x x) = quote, '((x) x) = id
21:03:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:03:32 <elliott> quote as in (quote . x) = 'x style quote
21:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, another issue, the Topics map looks like it is O(n). :(
21:03:46 <Vorpal> (of course it is short...)
21:03:56 <elliott> Vorpal: it's O(1) because the size of the list is fixed
21:04:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are the haps
21:04:08 <Sgeo> The PicoLisp people don't believe in arrays
21:04:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well I meant the search in it
21:04:29 <elliott> Vorpal: O(1), because it's never >a fixed N.
21:04:34 <news-ham> Burkina Faso government dismissed: Burkina Faso's president dissolves his government after members of his presidential guard went on an overnight rampage in the capital Ouagadougou. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-africa-13101197
21:05:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a binary tree would be more elegant :(
21:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: wait make it recognise "what are the <topic> haps my friends"
21:05:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i'll do it, but note that it will end up recognising "haps my friends what are the"
21:06:06 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Picolisp has easy support for binary trees somehow, I don't remember details though
21:06:07 -!- news-ham has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:06:48 -!- news-ham has joined.
21:06:49 <elliott> Haps my friends science what are the
21:06:51 <news-ham> EU's biofuel targets 'unethical': EU biofuels targets are unethical and should be lifted temporarily, according to a report. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13056862
21:07:03 <news-ham> Tories 'out of the comfort zone': The Conservatives say they have a programme that would take them "out of their comfort zone" as they publish their Welsh assembly manifesto. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-politics-13083291
21:07:10 <Vorpal> elliott, shouldn't it give an error in case of an unknown topic?
21:07:19 <quintopia> They are like leprechauns but they don't try so hard to trick you with their wish-granting
21:07:20 <elliott> How does it know what word is meant to be the topic.
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21:07:24 <elliott> This line is scientific and it mentions news-ham.
21:07:25 <news-ham> A dragonfly's guide: Dragonflies are thriving in some unexpected places http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9455000/9455764.stm
21:07:27 <elliott> It therefore gets scientific news.
21:07:34 <quintopia> they are also harder to catch, because leprechauns enjoy being caught sometimes
21:07:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that would be easy if you didn't try to make it go anywhere
21:08:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, if you only allowed ^news-ham[:,.]? *<topic>
21:08:44 <news-ham> Actor Trevor Bannister dies at 76: Are You Being Served? star Trevor Bannister has died at the age of 76, his brother confirms to the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13098312
21:08:46 <quintopia> what if i mention computers and news-ham in the same message?
21:08:47 <news-ham> Cry wolf: Why are re-worked fairy-tales like Red Riding Hood now in vogue? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-12992931
21:08:52 <elliott> quintopia: It's "technology"
21:09:35 <Vorpal> elliott, idea, use wordnet to figure out the meaning of a word!
21:09:40 <elliott> What are them mongrels that demand that the mishaps my friends cause must be punished?
21:09:47 <news-ham> Stalled revolts: Is the Arab Spring running out of steam? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13091091
21:09:50 <Sgeo> I just wish Picolisp had namespaces
21:10:05 <Sgeo> I mean, I could probably implement such a thing myself
21:10:37 <quintopia> that sgeo would pick a language and do something useful in it!
21:10:56 <monqy> pick every language, do everything useful
21:11:15 <quintopia> because #esoteric doesn't deal in traditional usefulness
21:11:17 <elliott> Sgeo: Namespaces are against the PicoLisp philosophy near as I can tell.
21:11:24 <elliott> It would harsh the vibes up, bro.
21:11:36 <news-ham> Smart investment: Does your business need its own mobile app? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/business-13000883
21:11:39 <elliott> Can't write my randArticle with namespaces. Well, you can, but it'd suck.
21:11:58 <Sgeo> elliott, hmm. The "can change everything" philosophy?
21:12:03 <Sgeo> Or some other part?
21:12:13 <elliott> Sgeo: No, the "bro anything goes and everything is short" philosophy.
21:12:13 <quintopia> is news-ham just a rss filter bot?
21:12:21 <elliott> AKA the sleep-deprived pot smoker's philosophy.
21:12:22 <news-ham> Italian activist murdered in Gaza: An Italian pro-Palestinian activist is found dead in the Gaza Strip hours after being abducted, local security officials say. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13088630
21:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover> An awful lot of BBC headlines are rhetorical questions, now that I look at them.
21:12:27 <elliott> quintopia: Only if you ping it. And it's BBC!
21:12:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You must not forget BBC 'News'
21:12:46 <elliott> http://po-ru.com/bbc-news/
21:13:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Thus http://po-ru.com/bbc-news/
21:13:08 <elliott> All the 'news' that's fit to 'quote'
21:13:39 <news-ham> Vettel heads Hamilton in practice: World champion Sebastian Vettel heads McLaren's Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button in Friday practice at the Chinese Grand Prix. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/formula_one/13090220.stm
21:14:08 <quintopia> it doesn't make me think any better of you
21:14:17 <elliott> quintopia: It's not our fault you keep pinging it.
21:14:24 <elliott> BTW, it is now official channel policy that the News Ham predates newsham coming here.
21:14:42 <zzo38> How can I find weather forecast program usable on gopher?
21:14:55 <quintopia> elliott: i have no issues with the bot. i just don't think having an idea is all that great a thing. implementing an idea is much cooler.
21:15:03 <elliott> quintopia: Yeah. I am cool. You know what is even the most coolerest?
21:15:07 <elliott> IMPLEMENTING IT IN PICOLISP
21:15:26 <elliott> quintopia: http://sprunge.us/fCHG
21:15:34 <Vorpal> elliott, use THIS to figure out that computer -> technology: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=1&o3=&r=1&s=computer&i=92&h=11130021301300221302001301300013022222002000000013002100000000000000101000000000000000000000101000#c
21:15:38 <elliott> quintopia: GO FETCH AN RSS FEED FROM HTTP AND PARSE OUT THE ARTICLES FROM IT SHORTER THAN RANDARTICLE DOES WITHOUT ANY RSS LIBS
21:15:41 <elliott> IN YOUR FAVOURITE LANGUAGE
21:15:47 <quintopia> i gathered as much from your comment about "randArticle"
21:16:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to unable to find the tree structure I'm looking for in there
21:17:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13047570 ;; BBC NEWS
21:17:12 <Ilari> Whee, this DNS server doesn't give any records for query for type ANY, but gives a record for query for type AAAA. :-/
21:17:13 <Vorpal> elliott, in the link I gave
21:18:46 <Vorpal> actually you could look at the hypernyms, and mark a handful of them as "technology", such as "machine"
21:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia: I WOULD IMPLEMENT THINGS IF ELLIOTT DIDN'T ALWAYS IMPLEMENT THEM FIRSt
21:19:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ALSO IF YOU COULD PROGRAM
21:19:22 <oklopol> it's funny because Phantom_Hoover is stupid
21:20:32 <Vorpal> ooh or you could look at hypernyms of the domain category. That looks even more interesting!
21:21:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but if I make them I first need to discuss the idea with you
21:21:12 <elliott> news-ham: Haha, you're new, and fraudulent. One could even say you are a ... new sham!
21:21:12 <news-ham> David Jason returning to comedy: Sir David Jason is making his comedy comeback in a new BBC One sitcom about a former soldier mistakenly put in charge of royal security. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13065697
21:21:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:21:15 <elliott> HAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHHA
21:21:20 <elliott> Vorpal: You might wanna learn PicoLisp first :P
21:21:28 <elliott> (It takes about five minutes to learn)
21:21:29 <Vorpal> elliott, meh, I'll wing it ;)
21:21:34 <elliott> Winging it IS learning it :P
21:22:17 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the theory is more interesting than the practical application
21:22:44 <elliott> Yes, but the former is what would have us with Phantom_Hoover sitting on a terrible pun, not implementing it.
21:23:31 <quintopia> so if people are willing to accept a news bot in here, surely they are willing to accept a radiobot!
21:23:42 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, I think I'm turning into him... Scary. I have been doing a lot more theory than implementation recently
21:23:55 <Vorpal> elliott, apart from stuff I need to implement for university purposes
21:24:01 <elliott> Eagerly awaiting Vorpal with Ph.D. and no desire to program.
21:24:28 <Vorpal> elliott, oh of course, I do the quick one liner and such to automate tasks, but that is about it recently
21:24:40 <elliott> Soon you will run out of tasks to automate
21:25:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Maybe I could automate programming for me. I'd probably get billions if I would manage that, which is an extra bonus.
21:25:37 <quintopia> people who solve AI-hard problems make millions
21:25:49 <quintopia> actually, it's corporations that solve them, not people, but same difference
21:25:51 <Vorpal> quintopia, has anyone actually done that?
21:26:08 <Vorpal> but yes, they would make millions if they did
21:26:35 <quintopia> well, we're not far off from reasonably good brain machine interfaces
21:26:48 <quintopia> that would at least speed up the programming process i suspect
21:26:50 <Vorpal> quintopia, didn't oklopol try out one and find it was pretty shitty?
21:27:15 <quintopia> but i think there will be reasonably good ones in our lifetimes
21:27:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, I eagerly await the day when I can input some pseudo code, or even an informal description, and get a fully working 3D game out
21:27:42 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: all the good ones involve neurosurgery to implant the necessary hardware
21:28:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, I presume "good" is relative here... How bad are the good ones?
21:28:33 <quintopia> Vorpal: i don't. what would i do for money when everyone just makes their own shit like that?
21:28:56 <Vorpal> quintopia, get tenure?
21:29:15 <olsner> elliott: say something funny, will ya?
21:29:15 <quintopia> Vorpal: well, they have monkeys controlling robotic arms and legs quite precisely. that's a start.
21:29:35 <olsner> not as funny as I expected, but it might do
21:29:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, that leaves out the *artificial* intelligence though
21:29:42 <Ilari> RIPE themselves say they have 4.04 blocks available.
21:29:57 <Vorpal> quintopia, good for prosthesis(spelling?) I guess
21:30:15 <Vorpal> Ilari, hm. Is that 4.04 /8?
21:30:27 <quintopia> Vorpal: yeah. it'll be quite a while before we can build a fully-functional human in any way other than the fuck-and-wait-40-weeks method
21:30:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, how did they get that much? I'd expected 2-3 after the endgame
21:30:48 <elliott> olsner: so does your thue compiler work
21:30:57 <olsner> the guitar solo(s) in A Kind of Magic are pretty neat, makes me yearn for a SID version of this song that picks out the good parts
21:30:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, there is the artificial insemination thingy
21:31:01 <quintopia> Vorpal: i think we'll have ALS patients and quadriplegics walking again within 50 years
21:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Family are continuing to obnoxiously steal this computer off me.
21:31:16 <olsner> elliott: yep, it was just the first character of the program getting cut off
21:31:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:31:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, password protect it?
21:31:34 <olsner> really stupid mistake thingy
21:31:51 <elliott> quintopia: Persuing such things directly is probably a less effective way of reaching their desired goal than going via an AI
21:31:58 <Ilari> Another source claims 3.69 (and thats including the final /8, that 4.04 figure didn't contain it).
21:32:00 <Vorpal> olsner, how much faster than the python implementation is it now?
21:32:10 <Ilari> Yes, over a block of difference.
21:32:10 <olsner> had [^q](.*) instead of ([^q].*) in one place
21:32:25 <olsner> Vorpal: same speed, pretty much
21:32:30 <quintopia> elliott: people are simultaneously pursuing AI. AI is the fast route to long term goals, but this is achievable in the short run
21:33:01 <elliott> quintopia: Nobody is pursuing effective AI right now.
21:33:15 <Vorpal> Ilari, what does RIPEs own data say?
21:33:19 <elliott> If you reply "Cyc", I will laugh uncontrollably. This will not be a voluntary action.
21:33:29 <elliott> quintopia: i.e. actually programming or designing a feasible AGI.
21:33:57 <Ilari> RIPE's own graph says 4.04 (not including final /8). I try to locate extended delegated file.
21:34:16 <quintopia> what do you think all the research into learning theory is for? people are designing algorithms to eventually be able to do just that
21:34:18 <Vorpal> elliott, what is wrong with Cyc as such? Sure it isn't that likely to lead to an AI, but the database might be useful to an AI, should one ever be developed.
21:34:43 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) Cyc's approach is unworkable. (2) The database would be useless because any feasible AI would be able to understand the source material directly.
21:34:54 <elliott> Furthermore, Cyc's database is in large part irrelevant bullshit like US presidents.
21:35:08 <elliott> quintopia: I don't think you understand the A part of AGI.
21:35:11 <quintopia> Vorpal: Cyc sucks. The people who built Watson looked at it and said "HAHAHAHAHA we'll just use books and wikipedia and stuff kthx"
21:35:20 <elliott> Watson is not even anything close to an AGI.
21:35:29 <elliott> Nobody is currently working on building a Friendly seed AGI. That is a fact.
21:35:33 <elliott> Well, nobody is publicly doing it.
21:35:39 <elliott> Therefore nobody is working on a feasible AGI.
21:35:41 <quintopia> watson is not even close to an AGI and even they thought cyc was useless
21:36:24 <Vorpal> elliott, what about evil AGI?
21:36:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't consider an AI that paperclips the universe to be very feasible.
21:36:44 <elliott> Not much opportunity to reap rewards.
21:37:04 <elliott> "Oh hi lil fella, what's great" "PAPERCLIPS!" "Hahaha isn't that ni*disintegrates*"
21:37:04 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, is this a Clippy reference?
21:37:12 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it's a paperclipping reference.
21:37:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm completely lost now
21:37:24 <elliott> http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer
21:37:34 <quintopia> elliott: do you think the hutter prize will eventually lead to better english language modeling?
21:37:59 <elliott> quintopia: I don't have nearly the expertise nor psychic abilities to answer that question.
21:38:03 <elliott> I do not know if compression is related to understanding.
21:38:07 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right. Why did they select paperclips for the concept, rather than, say, pens or whatever
21:38:46 <quintopia> probably cuz of the guy who traded a paperclip for a house. they decided paperclips must be very valuable :P
21:38:54 <elliott> Pretty sure it predates that.
21:39:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, wait what, what have I missed here?
21:39:40 <elliott> Vorpal: someone got famous for trading paperclip->...->house
21:39:58 <elliott> mostly because the things swapped were of almost but not quite identical value
21:40:02 <elliott> or hard to estimate or subjective value
21:40:23 <quintopia> no it's mainly because people wanted to get famous for having been a part of the trading process
21:40:42 <elliott> Which didn't really work since there's so fucking many trades involved
21:40:56 <Ilari> Calculating from RIPE delegated-extended doing the same corrections as is done for that 4.04 figure gives 4.03 blocks.
21:41:06 <quintopia> everyone involved came to the housewarming party
21:41:20 <Ilari> Diffrent days, that might very well explain the diffrence.
21:41:47 <elliott> On November 16, 2005, he made a second (and successful) attempt (after having the generator confiscated by the New York City Fire Department) in Maspeth, Queens, to trade the generator for an "instant party": an empty keg, an IOU for filling the keg with the beer of the holder's choice, and a neon Budweiser sign.
21:41:48 <elliott> On December 8, 2005, he traded the "instant party" to Quebec comedian and radio personality Michel Barrette for a Ski-doo snowmobile.
21:42:18 <Vorpal> elliott, confiscated, why?
21:42:23 <elliott> On or about July 5, 2006, he traded the movie role for a two-story farmhouse in Kipling, Saskatchewan
21:42:35 <quintopia> he traded an afternoon with alice cooper for a snowglobe
21:42:44 <elliott> quintopia: hahaha, you're right
21:42:52 <quintopia> and then traded the snowglobe to a hollywood director for a part in a major motion picture
21:42:53 <elliott> it was a KISS motorised snow globe
21:43:03 <Vorpal> elliott, what the heck is that
21:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, where does the motor fit in
21:43:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, okay, so it stirs the thing or what?
21:44:03 <quintopia> i mean, how do they fit the turntable motor in the bottom of a microwave? there's so little space down there!
21:44:21 <quintopia> they fill the entire hoods of cars
21:44:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, I meant more like "how does it fit into the *concept* of a snow globe"
21:44:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, as in, what does it do for it
21:46:31 <Sgeo> elliott, why is Picolisp's OO in C?
21:46:36 <Sgeo> Try making a method
21:46:49 <Sgeo> Then show the symbol for the method
21:49:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I would say that there *are* problems for which OO is an efficient way to model the domain. But OO is *very* over-used.
21:50:16 <elliott> Vorpal: everything i say is 100% objectively true always in the universe of the exceptionally tired, irritable shithead
21:50:49 <Vorpal> elliott, only your own personal pocket universe I presume.
21:50:52 <elliott> Vorpal: before you dismiss that context as irrelevant, it seems to be unusually productive for me, as I've produced both the new main page, and news-ham
21:50:52 <news-ham> Weapons found in dissident search: Guns and ammunition, including two pistols, are found in Lurgan by police investigating dissident republican activity. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-northern-ireland-13100494
21:51:11 <elliott> i wager that others could see similar productivity increases, were they willing to suffer in all other aspects.
21:51:12 * Sgeo wanted to add multiple dispatch
21:52:00 <Vorpal> elliott, do you think strong AI is possible? And what about feasible?
21:52:30 <Vorpal> elliott, possible to be done by humans within the next hundred years or so.
21:52:43 <elliott> (It is quite obviously possible, in that one can simulate even qubits on a classical computer, so even if the brain relies on quantum effects...)
21:52:58 <elliott> (I of course do not believe in any supernatural cause of intelligence, so that's enough.)
21:53:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Next hundred years? Maybe.
21:53:05 <Vorpal> elliott, for example, it is theoretically possible to simply model an entire human brain. That is not yet feasible.
21:53:30 <elliott> It would be lucky, that's for sure.
21:53:39 <elliott> You pretty much only get one shot at getting AGI right, after all.
21:53:57 <Vorpal> no refinement and so on?
21:54:03 <elliott> I assume you're aware of un-Friendly AI, FOOM, etc.
21:54:16 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Maybe you could *evolve* an AI?
21:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, if you don't build a self-improving AI, it's pretty useless :P
21:54:31 <elliott> You'll note that we're not really getting any more intelligent.
21:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, Could you simulate it faster than the human evolution inside a computer?
21:55:19 <elliott> (Nightmare fuel: The reason we haven't heard from alien civilisations is because they all ended up creating un-Friendly AIs that are now paperclipping the universe limited only by the speed of light.)
21:55:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you don't expect to see a strong AI during your own life-time I gather?
21:55:50 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not sure that question makes sense. Anyway, throwing random numbers at a problem isn't necessarily easier than throwing brains at it.
21:55:57 <elliott> It's just less of a pain for us :)
21:56:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Depends how you define my own life-time, if things don't look good on the seed AI front I'll certainly give serious thought to signing up for cryonics
21:57:06 <elliott> In the next 70 years or so, dunno, like I said it would be incredibly lucky.
21:57:11 <Vorpal> elliott, we don't yet know that cyronics will actually work.
21:57:29 <elliott> Vorpal: No, we don't, but cryopreservation of organs on the small scale does.
21:57:43 <elliott> (For limited periods of time)
21:58:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Add the 70 years or so they have to improve the already pretty-good preservation process and I think there's a damn good chance I'd be _preserved_ perfectly enough, the question isn't whether you're preserved but whether you're revivable.
21:58:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I think I seen a theory somewhere, that perhaps memories are electrical signals kept in constant circulation in the brain. If so, cyrogenics would run into problems.
21:58:38 <elliott> On the grand scale of things it has enough evidence and promise, the reward is high enough, and the cost is cheap enough for it to seem to pay off to me.
21:58:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Is there any evidence for that theory?
21:58:58 <elliott> ISTR reading a rebuttal of it.
21:59:22 <elliott> Anyway, there are all sorts of reasons cryonics might not work, but it all really boils down to reward times probability of it working.
21:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I think there was some indications that it might be true, but no hard evidence as far as I remember. I don't even remember where I read about it.
21:59:29 <elliott> Erm, and factoring in the cost there :P
22:00:23 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, how *does* the human brain store memories. Chemically? Electrically? Some completely different way?
22:00:49 <elliott> Dunno, ask a neuroscientist. I'm almost certain you'll get "dunno" back.
22:01:05 <elliott> But I do seem to recall reading a rather convincing rebuttal of the "constant circulation of signals" idea.
22:01:56 <Vorpal> elliott, is *anybody* certain about anything but the simplest parts of the brain?
22:02:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, people save up shitloads of money for their funeral and crap like that, cryonics is obviously a better investment if you're going to spend money on after-clinical-death things.
22:02:52 <elliott> I don't anticipate dying any time soon, anyway :P
22:03:10 <Vorpal> indeed. Maybe we discover immortality before we die
22:03:52 <elliott> I doubt "we" will "discover" "immortality" :P
22:04:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well, engineer it perhaps. And I meant "we" as in Homo Sapiens Sapiens
22:04:39 <Vorpal> (which is, by the way, an utterly silly name)
22:04:43 <elliott> Define immortality, if I'm going to live for 80 million years does that count as immortal?
22:05:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd say "until heat death of universe, excluding accidents, and then fuck you"
22:05:12 <Vorpal> so no dying of old age
22:05:26 <elliott> Heat death of the universe is a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time away.
22:05:40 <elliott> All we need right now is a few thousand year extension to start with :P
22:05:56 <olsner> or it's next year, according to some calendars
22:06:11 <Vorpal> elliott, that's do too. I wouldn't call that immortality though.
22:06:22 <Vorpal> damn s being next to d
22:06:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd say aiming for immortality is a pointless goal compared to that
22:06:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I'll remind you of that on your 2000th bday :P
22:06:45 <elliott> I'd only consider immortality to be true immortality if it involved the heat death of the universe being prevented, anyway :P
22:07:14 <Vorpal> elliott, who knows, our theories *could* be wrong. That happened before. Many times.
22:07:30 <elliott> Even if a heat death is on its way I don't think that implies it's absolutely inevitable *shrug*
22:08:06 <Vorpal> possibly. If we could only harvest that quantum vacuum thingy
22:08:21 <elliott> Vorpal: In the long long run (and of course this is just in the realm of pointless sci-fi wankery but INEVITABLE LOL) I'd expect perceived-seconds to take many quadrillions of years.
22:08:32 <elliott> Let's say there's an absolute limit to it.
22:08:49 <elliott> Let's say we want to compute SHITLOADS of things. I think that's pretty likely. e.g. virtual reality simulation.
22:08:52 <Vorpal> elliott, perceived-seconds?
22:08:57 <olsner> blink and face quadrillions of years having passed before your eyes during which you have done nothing
22:09:03 <elliott> Vorpal: As in, what we perceive as a second will actually take quadrillions of years.
22:09:21 <elliott> The obvious solution to a maximum speed of calculation is LAWL MIND UPLOADING.
22:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, we being in a universe simulator?
22:09:25 <elliott> Nothing says you have to try and maintain real-time parity.
22:09:55 <elliott> If someone asks the AI to calculate some ridiculously computationally-expensive equation, so what? A second will take a few quadrijillibillion times longer than usual.
22:10:12 <elliott> If you've got the whole dying universe thing under control, that won't be a problem.
22:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, then we might run into the heat death mentioned
22:10:17 <elliott> If you've got the whole dying universe thing under control, that won't be a problem.
22:10:31 <Vorpal> elliott, it arrived same second
22:13:17 <elliott> Anyway clearly we just need to wait for the Culture to decide we're worth engulfing.
22:13:22 <Vorpal> elliott, actually... with a massively distributed system it might not be so bad. Ever programmed an FPGA? With that you can do a lot of things side by side, that is just unfeasible on a traditional CPU architecture. No I'm not suggesting we will upload ourselves to an FPGA. I'm just using it as an example of the possibilities of massively parallel systems.
22:13:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I should read Culture some time. Maybe.
22:13:44 <elliott> Yah, but the point is that if you have a universe that's going to be around forever, and mind simulation, speed limits don't exist.
22:13:55 <elliott> Just pause mind emulation for however long you want while you compute.
22:14:26 <elliott> So the AI could easily run at N gigateramegabajilliquadriphonicilopsitopsi-operations per second for arbitrary N.
22:14:36 <elliott> Erm, the simulated universe, that is.
22:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, speaking of which, that recent stuff about carbon transistors looked quite interesting. Well maybe a year old now.
22:17:10 <Vorpal> ah, a little more than a year: "In February 2010, researchers at IBM reported that they have been able to create graphene transistors with an on and off rate of 100 gigahertz, far exceeding the rates of previous attempts, and exceeding the speed of silicon."
22:19:11 <elliott> news-ham: you are my favourite ham.
22:19:14 <news-ham> Benefit cheat danced to karaoke: A benefits cheat is given a suspected jail term for falsely claiming benefits while working as a karaoke host. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-13097919
22:19:50 <news-ham> Tears for Margate: Emotional Tracey Emin salutes the Kent resort's new gallery http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13100390
22:20:52 <Gregor> I want a quick input-only MIDI dumper. No blocking read(), no select(), only poll and read.
22:21:14 <news-ham> Uganda politician wounded by army: Ugandan opposition leader Kizza Besigye is injured as soldiers open fire to disperse protesters in the capital, Kampala. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-africa-13079335
22:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, feature request, some way to get http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/europe/
22:22:34 <elliott> you want a latin america feed while i'm at it?
22:22:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well, one for each on the map halfway down http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/ ?
22:23:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it's like 7 ones
22:23:31 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't it just adding something to the map?
22:23:38 -!- news-ham has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:43 -!- news-ham has joined.
22:23:45 <elliott> newsham: what are the asia-related haps
22:23:52 <elliott> news-ham: what are the asia
22:23:53 <news-ham> China: Key facts, figures and dates http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1287798.stm
22:23:55 <Vorpal> newsham, europe my friend!
22:23:56 <elliott> news-ham: what are the europe
22:23:57 <ais523> elliott: you forgot the hyphen
22:23:58 <news-ham> Explore the Space Station: Clickable guide to the International Space Station http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-12984241
22:24:00 <news-ham> Irish pass first economic review: The Republic of Ireland's progress on cutting its deficit has been approved by international authorities, a condition of its 85bn-euro bail-out. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/business-13091873
22:24:04 <news-ham> Greenland: Key facts, figures and dates http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1023393.stm
22:24:10 <Vorpal> news-ham, europe my friend!
22:24:13 <news-ham> Greece: Key facts, figures and dates http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1009249.stm
22:24:15 <ais523> news-ham: what is the elliott?
22:24:16 <news-ham> Japan orders nuclear compensation: Japan orders the operator of the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant to pay provisional compensation to about 48,000 affected families. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-asia-pacific-13090304
22:24:20 <Gregor> news-ham: What's going on in appropriately-capitalized Asia?
22:24:22 <elliott> KEY FACTS FIGURES AND DATES
22:24:22 <news-ham> Macau: An overview of Macau, including key facts, political leaders and notes on the media http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/4080105.stm
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22:25:17 <elliott> news-ham: WHAT ARE THE INCREDIBLY EXCITING THINGS HAPPENING IN ... SCOTLAND ???
22:25:19 <news-ham> Gers face fresh sectarian charge: Rangers fear being forced to play behind closed doors after Uefa investigates a second charge of sectarian singing by fans. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/football/13088419.stm
22:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, what did you change?
22:25:27 <elliott> i removed those shitty ones and added: SCOTLAND
22:25:34 <Vorpal> elliott, in upper case?
22:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, just in case you mean?
22:25:52 <elliott> Vorpal: btw this can technically do any RSS 2.0 feed
22:26:01 <elliott> but I'll only add ones with title=headline, description=blurb
22:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, hm.. are you asking for suggestions?
22:26:12 <elliott> Vorpal: for europe stuff, sure
22:26:21 <elliott> heck, i'll even add sweden if you have an english source
22:26:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't find the RSS icon in firefox 4... weird
22:27:17 <Vorpal> elliott, for Sweden, what about the English Swedish Radio news? http://api.sr.se/api/rssfeed/rssfeed.aspx?rssfeed=2054
22:27:32 <Vorpal> I'm not sure it fits your criteria above
22:27:52 <Vorpal> <title><![CDATA[Government approves new loan for Saab ]]></title> <-- why CDATA?
22:28:02 <elliott> <description><![CDATA[The case of a Swedish girl who was beaten and raped in Greece in 2008 has sparked a debate here in Sweden after the prosecutor, at the island of Samos, decided to drop all charges against the alleged rapist, and instead charge the woman with defamation.According to the prosecutor the woman was looking for an "erotic adventure" and only reported the man because she was afraid
22:28:02 <elliott> that her friends or family would find out.]]></description>
22:28:08 <elliott> and i don't know if the parser does cdata :D
22:28:19 <Vorpal> elliott, why on earth does it do CDATA
22:28:25 <Vorpal> but yes, the blurb is rather long
22:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, for a start it is xml yes
22:29:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also I have one on the melodies from Cosmos stuck in my head. I keep humming it all the time. And it is not even a easily hummable one, so the result is rather poor.
22:30:33 <Gregor> ARGH ... I refuse to believe that PortMidi is actually so terrible as to be endianness-sensitive.
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22:31:21 <quintopia> elliott: what is your opinion of potential for OpenCog?
22:31:32 <Vorpal> elliott, if you want the news in German or Sami or "Sisu" (whatever that is) I can do that too
22:31:51 <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
22:31:54 <elliott> quintopia: well, ben goertzel is infinitely more competent than most (advisor to SIAI)
22:32:11 <elliott> ISTR some worryingly cavalier statements from him about Friendliness, but... a better chance than most.
22:32:13 <Gregor> OK, WHEW, it's not as bad as I thought X_X
22:32:15 <elliott> So still about 0 modulo rounding errors.
22:32:18 <Gregor> Just poorly documented.
22:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh Sisu seems to be Finnish for some completely unclear reason
22:33:06 <elliott> sorry, just found: the best feed
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22:34:11 <Vorpal> elliott, one thing you could do I think is simply strip the CDATA bit at the start and the end. That might work. Or it might break horribly.
22:34:18 <Vorpal> <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now. <-- what?
22:34:38 <Vorpal> `addquote <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
22:34:39 <HackEgo> 367) <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
22:34:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes I think I worked it?
22:35:04 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/1column80*a
22:35:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, what do you mean. Some sort of gropher->http proxy?
22:35:28 <Vorpal> zzo38, it seems firefox 4 can't open that
22:36:05 <zzo38> Maybe you can connect using netcat and use the selector string "column80*a" (without quotation marks)
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22:36:39 <elliott> news-ham: You smell kinda weird. Like... onions.
22:36:48 <elliott> ?xml-stylesheet -- Unbalanced XML
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22:37:09 <news-ham> Kobe Mad: 266878 http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/OZ4jWQQeNIM/
22:37:09 <Vorpal> elliott, not done Sweden yet?
22:37:14 <news-ham> Last Pick Of WNBA Draft Earns Title Of Saddest Woman In America: 266878 http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/9Xdm_BVQ7Gw/
22:37:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that looks wrong
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22:38:17 <news-ham> Obama Orders Guantánamo Prisoners Transferred To Next President: http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/EeNrTh9rkGE/
22:38:27 <news-ham> American Voices: Sleeping Air Traffic Controllers Prompts FAA Action: http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/W_MzYEmRU7I/
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22:38:55 <news-ham> Author Promoting Book Gives It Her All Whether It's Just 3 People Or A Crowd Of 9 People: http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/ZWc3ZGMm8H8/
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22:39:28 <news-ham> Magazine: Our Elderly Wildlife Issuehttp://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/u8A4tk_8uY0/
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22:39:41 <elliott> (I can't use onion blurbs, too long, so just headlines)
22:39:48 <elliott> (this also means i could do that swedish thing but not right now)
22:39:51 <news-ham> Third-Party Candidate Forms Exploratory Committee To See Who Can Cover Shifts For Him In Coming Months http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/GcNN-SSV64E/
22:40:28 <news-ham> New Music Experience: Coachellla unveils groundbreaking new stage and light showhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13091269
22:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, did the cdata not work out?
22:40:56 <Vorpal> elliott, insert a space there
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22:41:08 <elliott> most of that is the topics :)
22:41:11 <Vorpal> elliott, post the source?
22:41:23 <elliott> Vorpal: you mean the latest? ok
22:41:25 <Gregor> Need another MIDI parsing library then X_X
22:41:37 <elliott> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/ADiC
22:42:12 <Vorpal> elliott, (if (and (== feed 'onion) (== X 'description)) <-- how inelegant. Should have a map with a flag like "use-desc" or such
22:42:24 <elliott> I should just have a function per source.
22:42:35 <elliott> But it was just designed for the BBC, I'm not gonna rearchitecture until tomorrow when I'm awake :P
22:42:45 <elliott> It's still fairly elegant *shrug*
22:42:48 <elliott> (if (get Article 'description) (pack ": " @)) " "
22:42:51 <elliott> ^ good use of anaphoric if here
22:42:52 <Vorpal> elliott, Add the Swedish one please :)
22:43:08 <Vorpal> elliott, http://api.sr.se/api/rssfeed/rssfeed.aspx?rssfeed=2054
22:43:41 <Vorpal> elliott, funny the link text is http://www.sr.se/rssfeed/rssfeed.aspx?rssfeed=2054, but it links to http://api.sr.se/api/rssfeed/rssfeed.aspx?rssfeed=2054
22:43:47 <Vorpal> this is on http://sverigesradio.se/sida/default.aspx?programID=2358
22:44:12 <Vorpal> oh well, the link text one redirects
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22:45:21 <elliott> just gives me an xml parse error
22:45:35 <elliott> ultra-right-wing papers preferred!
22:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, so the xml parser is incomplete?
22:46:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I know of good Swedish ones. But not ones in English. Hm maybe.
22:46:21 <Vorpal> maybe thelocal has something
22:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, where the fuck is the RSS icon in firefox 4?
22:47:26 <Vorpal> elliott, this one while not CDATA fails you other criteria I think: http://www.thelocal.se/RSS/theLocal.xml
22:47:48 <Vorpal> elliott, look at link/url
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22:48:05 <Vorpal> wait, that's the image
22:49:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the actual relevant difference?
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22:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, could you just strip out the CDATA stuff with some regex? It might work
22:50:50 <elliott> for today... rss 2 without cdata only :)
22:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, don't know any. And SR (Sveriges Radio) is *the* good news source in Sweden. Same status as BBC has in UK basically. Except we split Radio and TV in separate companies
22:51:57 <Vorpal> hm maybe they have something
22:52:29 <Vorpal> elliott, does the bot without any topic mentioned use any random source?
22:52:46 <elliott> maybe i should change that.
22:52:54 <Vorpal> elliott, not if you add fox no :P
22:53:41 <elliott> as much a clusterfuck as the news
22:54:01 <Vorpal> utter fail. I searched on svt.se, clicked a result. Got a 404 without the actual error code
22:54:18 <elliott> view-source:http://www.reddit.com/.rss GUESS WHAT QUALIFIES
22:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, this website design. Where you you rate it on a scale from 0 to 9? http://svt.se/2.42317/english
22:55:17 <Sgeo> elliott, someone is claiming that no languages have an OO system written in themselves. Any counterexamples?
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22:55:36 <elliott> Sgeo: Common Lisp? Sort of.
22:55:41 <news-ham> Actor Trevor Bannister dies at 76: Are You Being Served? star Trevor Bannister has died at the age of 76, his brother confirms to the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13098312
22:55:42 <news-ham> Why does the US Department of Justice give so many shits about Major League Baseball players on Steroids? http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/gqtoc/why_does_the_us_department_of_justice_give_so/
22:55:45 <news-ham> Guy kicks ball, impossibly wins £250,000. [vid] http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/gqnp2/guy_kicks_ball_impossibly_wins_250000_vid/
22:55:58 <Sgeo> <cyborg_ar> well, let me rephrase that "the official implementations of most, if not all, popular interpretive object-oriented languages"
22:56:09 <elliott> Vorpal: not the worst i've seen :P
22:56:26 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah that one with hundreds of images you played websplat on is worse
22:56:40 <elliott> and i don't think it had rss UNFORTUNATELY
22:56:40 <Sgeo> Havenwor.. dammit
22:57:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I conclude that if svt.se has RSS, there is a severe lack of English such.
22:57:48 <Vorpal> I'm not even sure it has Swedish rss
22:58:23 <Vorpal> elliott, nothing there, I found RSS in search, but actually clicking the result gave 404 without the proper http status code
22:58:57 <Vorpal> bad web site design: http://sverigesradio.se/ worse web site design: http://svt.se/ Loading time of both are horrible
22:59:20 <Vorpal> elliott, the mobile sr.se works well
22:59:25 <Vorpal> can't seem to access it atm
22:59:35 <elliott> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/ ;; WHOOPS LOOK AT THAT BEST NEWS WEBSITE UI EVER, NON-MOBILEVERSION
22:59:45 <elliott> Loads instantly, typographically sound, web standards, clean design!
23:00:49 <Vorpal> m.sverigesradio.se is a redirect? what? However it does work from my phone. Just checked.
23:00:53 <Vorpal> looks the same as it did before
23:00:59 <Vorpal> but sad they broke it for computers somehow
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23:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes, bbc is quite okay. Still rather slow and large
23:04:58 <elliott> it's instant from inside uk
23:05:08 <elliott> you should be lucky your backwater country even gets signal!
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23:06:44 <Vorpal> elliott, http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&topic=h&num=3&output=rss
23:06:45 <Sgeo> elliott, who's being stupid in #picolisp right now, me or Arm?
23:07:40 <Vorpal> elliott, reason google news rss feed sucks:
23:07:43 <Vorpal> <description><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="7" style=" [...]
23:08:18 <Sgeo> elliott, cyborg_ar agrees with me
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23:09:47 <oerjan> someone not me now needs to write new-sham which dispenses markovian "business opportunities"
23:10:05 <news-ham> VIDEO: Car thief crashes through level crossing: Footage has been released of a car thief smashing through a level crossing seconds before a train passed through. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-england-13094294
23:10:09 <elliott> oerjan: I UPDATED MAIN PAGE
23:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, issue: it doesn't scroll sideways :(
23:10:51 <oerjan> <elliott> indeed. news-ham. <-- i don't think you got the gist of the "'s, there
23:10:53 <news-ham> Swirling waters: The school swimming club where all but two died in Japan's tsunami http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-asia-pacific-13083528
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23:11:02 <Vorpal> elliott, about ais523's scrolling before
23:11:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but indeed it must scroll sideways when maximised on my 24" monitor
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23:12:05 <ais523> I don't think it would take too much effort to force the page to have a horizontal scrollbar whilst otherwise keeping everything the same
23:12:05 <ais523> but there'd be no point
23:12:49 <Vorpal> ais523, btw for me it doesn't scroll vertically either
23:13:08 <Sgeo> elliott, I feel weird understanding Picolisp better than Arm
23:13:20 <ais523> it's small enough to fit on the screen
23:13:26 <Vorpal> ais523, didn't you say you wanted that?
23:13:36 <ais523> Vorpal: I think you missed the point completely
23:13:58 <Vorpal> ais523, probably. I tried to figure it out and didn't find much sense in it
23:14:19 <Vorpal> ais523, you wanted to scroll to hide the header I think?
23:14:31 <ais523> Vorpal: you are still missing hte opint
23:14:40 <Vorpal> ais523, what *was* the point then?
23:14:58 <Vorpal> elliott, has anyone done a MI TAS btw?
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23:16:09 <oerjan> ais523: User:Racoon needs deletion (and probably banning)
23:16:35 <ais523> oerjan: how recent is that?
23:16:46 <ais523> I don't remember seeing it on my recent changes feed
23:16:52 <oerjan> from today or yesterday
23:16:57 <Vorpal> history says yesterday
23:17:46 <oerjan> ais523: but it came in that Funciton flurry probably. if your rss reader is like mine it may drop changes when there are too many?
23:18:18 <ais523> that may be a mediawiki issue, in fact
23:18:36 <ais523> I'll just delete it for now, and give a really nasty sort of block if the same account does anything else spammy
23:18:38 <oerjan> hm maybe. i have that problem with the Godel's Letter comment feed.
23:18:58 <oerjan> (never see more than the 10 latest)
23:19:55 <Vorpal> The unoccupied (occupied) states [...] <-- what
23:20:12 <Vorpal> actually it makes kind of sense in the full sentence:
23:20:15 <Vorpal> "The unoccupied (occupied) states, colored in blue-red (yellow-green), touch each other without energy gap exactly at the above-mentioned six k-vectors."
23:20:21 <Vorpal> however, extremely awkward
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23:26:50 <oerjan> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:TOGA_computer
23:32:30 <ais523> I don't normally block the spambots instantly, only if they do it a second or third time
23:41:46 <Vorpal> ais523, huh for clear spambots, why not?
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23:42:02 <ais523> Vorpal: because often they never post again, so it would be a waste
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23:42:11 <Vorpal> ais523, what does it waste?
23:42:14 * oerjan hates it when mediawiki's diff fails spectacularly at matching old and new bits
23:42:33 <ais523> Vorpal: my time; other people's time when they read the banlist
23:42:40 <ais523> clogging recent changes
23:50:07 <zzo38> Is there some C programming where you are allowed to access the activation records directly?
23:54:15 <oerjan> isn't cheney on the mta based on being able to do that?
23:54:46 <oerjan> or wait maybe it just needs setjmp/longjmp
23:55:01 <Vorpal> wait, what are you two talking about?
23:55:27 <oerjan> i'm just thinking about where direct access might already be used
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23:56:49 <oerjan> "Despite this, the C code does not copy C stack frames, only Scheme objects, so it does not require knowledge of the C implementation.
23:56:58 <oerjan> (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(Scheme_implementation))