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00:16:49 <zzo38> cheater99: It is not allowed to jump.
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01:14:31 * pikhq wonders why nether minecart systems aren't popular
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01:17:35 <zzo38> Did you read the article about scoring in computer games?
01:18:28 <zzo38> You *cannot* use a single scoring system for all games; you have to change it.
01:25:40 <pikhq> Probably be nicer if you could ride a minecart in and out of the nether, though.
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01:45:52 <Fuco> well damnit I got the sockets in befunge working but I can't connect anywhere :(
01:51:14 <pikhq> Aaah, Colorado. Land of snow the day before Easter.
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01:51:28 <pikhq> Seriously, it's April 23rd and it's fucking snowing.
01:53:08 <zzo38> It doesn't snow today, in here.
01:53:36 <pikhq> And you're in Canada.
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02:26:35 <zzo38> Yes, I am in Canada.
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03:12:46 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Str_len/core wouldn't it have been easier just to add a magic thing for this...
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03:23:04 <Sgeo> elliott's little toe is made of magic
03:23:32 <elliott> shut the fuck up, birds outside. shut the fuck up.
03:23:50 <Sgeo> You've never seen/heard Magical Trevor?
03:25:07 <elliott> fuck X for breaking like that.
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04:02:30 <variable> Woot! I found a paper discussing my game of war question
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04:11:23 <zzo38> variable: You found paper? What is the answer?
04:11:49 <variable> zzo38: reading it now. It discussed a few things - I'm trying to find average case complexity
04:14:37 <variable> zzo38: darnit. It doesn't talk about complexity; I found one about its finiteness (which it claims can be made finite) and one about its limiting probability of a winning straegy
04:15:20 <variable> zzo38: http://arxiv.org/abs/1007.1371
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06:55:34 <pikhq> ... There's a distinction between "w" and "wh" in English?
06:55:40 <pikhq> This is complete and utter news to me.
06:55:56 <zzo38> pikhq: Depend on kind of pronounce. But, yes, it is.
07:05:14 <pikhq> Ah, apparently the large majority of American accents have merged the two.
07:06:42 <pikhq> That *does* explain why "white" gets transliterated as "howaito" in Japanese...
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07:25:11 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, of course that isn't the Japanese word for white, it is the Japanese word for the English word for white, sometimes used in compounds of loan words and stuff like that. I have seen it used, so I can confirm that it is the correct transliteration.
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07:30:25 <pikhq> zzo38: I did specify "transliterated", so. :)
07:30:47 <pikhq> Of course, the Japanese word for white is 白い (しろい) [shiroi].
07:32:50 <pikhq> Well, yeah, you do seem to know at least a bit of Japanese. But not all who read the chat do.
07:38:07 <pikhq> "Bishops agree sex abuse rules" As a speaker of American English, there is no way for this headline to parse as anything *but* comical.
07:38:50 <pikhq> Apparently in UK English, "agree" is transitive, allowing that to also be interpreted as "Bishops agree on sex abuse rules". But that interpretation does not come out of the parser-in-my-head at all.
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07:55:35 <pikhq> Gibraltar Airport has a runway with a *road intersecting it*.
07:56:12 <pikhq> They literally stop traffic on a 4-lane road so planes can take off.
07:59:11 <pikhq> Said runway is also the Spain/Gibraltar border.
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08:07:40 <Sgeo> Need to get to work on homework. At 4:06 AM. After having an entire week of no school to do everything.
08:08:56 <pikhq> Why, you almost sound like a college student there.
08:09:33 <pikhq> Sleep may be a good idea.
08:09:42 <pikhq> Indeed, 'twould seem to be a great idea.
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09:25:00 <Vorpal> pikhq (for log reading): yes the intersection at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Gibraltar_Airport_panorama.jpg is pure awesome
09:25:08 <Vorpal> maybe they should build a tunnel though
09:30:15 <Vorpal> oh and nice how the same aicraft appears so many times in there
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09:54:41 <zzo38> Have you ever wanted to have any of the INTERCAL commands/operators in any circumstances in other programming languages?
09:59:10 <cheater99> why would wikipedia cite the same paper twice?
09:59:21 <cheater99> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_computing 41 == 4
09:59:34 <zzo38> Probably it is a mistake.
10:00:53 <cheater99> should separate citations refer to the same number?
10:01:00 <Vorpal> cheater99, same page number?
10:01:25 <cheater99> oh right, they are citing separate parts of the paper
10:04:51 <zzo38> Yes, that is it. I did not look at the article so I obviously did not notice
10:08:15 <cheater99> the citation notes actually mention that too
10:08:28 * cheater99 has not noticed, skipping over the contrived body of the text
10:11:32 <cheater99> hah one of the authors on this one other paper is Viral Shah
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10:54:34 <oklopol> "<Tomsik> Is there a language that doesn't let you name arguments to a function, forcing you to go pointfree?" <<< unlambda!
10:55:04 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, I mentioned Unlambda, too.
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10:57:17 <oklopol> "<Tomsik> who want (f . g)(x) to be f (g x)" <<< some books do use postfix notation
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11:05:52 <oklopol> zzo38: yeah i noticed just after saying
11:06:43 <oklopol> zzo38: there's something called curry-howard-lambek correspondence for connecting types, logic and categories i think
11:07:07 <oklopol> you asked something like this i seem to recall
11:10:18 <oklopol> copumpkin: so far, no theorems proven on ##categorytheory
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11:16:04 <augur> do you know how to respond to disk-sectors being unable to be read?
11:17:07 <oklopol> be sure they install all the programs at the shop because that shit can be complicated
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11:26:42 <cheater99> http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft0f59n73z&chunk.id=d0e6438&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e6438&brand=ucpress
11:28:07 <zzo38> Finally, my tsumeshogi program will find all the moves that give check. But now it has to find the moves to get out of check, too.
11:32:41 <cheater99> zzo38: how many states are there in chess?
11:33:04 <zzo38> cheater99: I don't know. There are a lot, though.
11:34:04 <zzo38> I have never tried to calculate it.
11:34:41 <zzo38> Shogi has more, though. And Go has a lot more.
11:35:21 <cheater99> i think it's choose(32, 96) / number of cases where the different pieces can be swapped
11:36:21 <zzo38> I think you have failed to take into account many of the other rules of chess, such as promotion, castling, en passant, and so on.
11:36:59 <zzo38> And that is not all!
11:38:32 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
11:39:27 <oklopol> actually choose(32, 96) is 0 :P
11:39:40 <cheater99> # the capture can only be made at its first opportunity.
11:40:00 <zzo38> cheater99: You are refering to en passan?
11:40:05 <oklopol> cheater99: YOU MUST REALLY SUCK AT MATH!
11:40:18 <cheater99> zzo38: yes, this "at first opportunity" thing totally creates zillions of states
11:40:30 <cheater99> oklopol: no, i suck at using non-mathematical notation for mathematics.
11:40:49 <cheater99> oklopol: i wouldn't know which mathematic that would refer to.
11:41:02 <oklopol> i don't think there's significant knowledge of what chess positions are reachable past just counting all the possible board contentses
11:41:02 <cheater99> oklopol: which mathematic were you talking about?
11:41:33 <oklopol> cheater99: i was referring to the one where choose(32, 96) is 0. in the one where choose(32, 96) is, umm, a lot, i'm sure you're very good
11:42:08 <oklopol> cheater99: LOL zillion is not a number :D
11:42:13 <cheater99> oklopol: ok, i don't think i have used your mathematic a lot, i guess i have spent most of my time using other mathematics
11:42:44 <cheater99> it's the square root of a jillion.
11:42:45 <oklopol> cheater99: that's kind of a shame, this means if we ever want to discuss maths, we will have to relearn everything :\
11:43:02 <cheater99> oklopol: let's just talk about category theory then.
11:43:12 <oklopol> and i'm not sure i can live with choose(32, 96) being a lot!
11:43:31 <oklopol> i don't understand how it can be
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11:43:41 <oklopol> cheater99: oh wow it has implications that deep?
11:43:58 <cheater99> for you choose(32, 96) = 0 therefore you have no choice!
11:43:59 <oklopol> i would never have guessed it contradicts choice
11:44:13 <oklopol> MAYBE the axiom of foundation
11:44:24 <cheater99> i totally founded you with you mom
11:44:39 <oklopol> i actually just talked about how i was born with my mom today
11:45:17 <cheater99> did you mention things like "endofunctor"?
11:47:11 <cheater99> ok, i'm doing a collection of notes on parallel computation and algorithms..
11:47:19 <cheater99> i think i'll soon have to do notes-of-notes :-\
11:47:32 <cheater99> i'm not sure if this action will ever halt, though.
11:48:12 <oklopol> parallel algos are kinda gay aren't they
11:48:53 <cheater99> if by that you mean that one parallel algo will put its penis in the anus of another parallel algo of the same kind, then yes.
11:50:28 <oklopol> that's exactly what i mean
11:54:31 <cheater99> cool... i've just summarized the same book twice, without realizing.
11:54:38 <cheater99> fortunately enough i have summarized different parts of it.
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11:57:03 <oklopol> when you could be productarizing?`
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12:29:41 <cheater99> http://www.qwiki.com/q/#!/FROSTBURG
12:29:56 <cheater99> i like the fact of what it's talking about.
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12:58:51 <Ilari> Hmm... RIPE NCC burnrate seems to be about 110.5k addresses per day..
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13:02:19 <Ilari> APNIC in the end days burned through their pools at over ten times that rate (1.2M or so makes RIPE's 110.5k seem pretty small usage).
13:02:27 <Ilari> (per day that is).
13:05:53 <oerjan> <cheater99> i think it's choose(32, 96) / number of cases where the different pieces can be swapped
13:06:15 <oerjan> as oklopol said that's backwards, also don't you mean 64 rather than 96
13:06:27 <oerjan> + that extra state others mentioned
13:06:39 <cheater99> i define choose(x, y) as "choose x items from y items".
13:06:56 <oerjan> the usual order is the other way
13:07:16 <oerjan> no, that's what i was asking
13:08:24 <oerjan> i realized you need something for captured pieces, and 96 _might_ work for that
13:09:21 <cheater99> of course, this approach has countless problems.
13:09:29 <cheater99> as in, the whole approach altogether :D
13:09:39 <oerjan> oh also choose is usually assuming you consider all pieces swappable
13:10:38 <cheater99> i'm pretty bad with specifics when it comes to it, i'm usually good at general ideas and stuff like that
13:11:54 <oerjan> i've seen the other version with no swapping called "permutations"
13:11:58 <cheater99> http://cowichanp.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/lease-framework-for-embarrassingly-parallel-problems/ < heh, i like this
13:12:26 <cheater99> oerjan: yes, but permutations of a set have the same amount of items as the set
13:12:31 <oerjan> but in any case to _really_ count chess positions you probably need an ungodly mess of swapping and non-swapping stuff
13:12:33 <Ilari> Number of blocks burned this year: APNIC: 6.229. RIPE NCC: 1.025. ARIN: 0.741. LACNIC: 0.304. AfriNIC: 0.162. Number of /32s handed out this year: RIPE NCC: 1 364. ARIN: 803. LACNIC: 296. APNIC: 192. AfriNIC: 63.
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13:13:20 <oerjan> cheater99: um obviously you interpret the order of items as something specific depending on the problem's needs
13:13:48 <cheater99> i have not understood that last statement.
13:14:58 <oerjan> what i mean is the function that counts how many ways to pick k elements from n, with the order of choosing actually mattering, unlike for the usual meaning of choose
13:15:28 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading): talking about size of inferno source code, being huge:
13:15:33 <Vorpal> 72Mlinux-2.6.38.4.tar.bz2
13:15:33 <Vorpal> 52Minferno-20100120.tgz
13:16:10 <Vorpal> elliott: and that includes the user space for inferno. Not so for the linux case
13:16:48 <Ilari> Totals: 8.461 blocks burnt, 2 718 /32s handed out.
13:17:06 <oerjan> cheater99: oh and promotions make things even more complicated since a pawn can potentially become 4 different pieces
13:17:32 <cheater99> but we're only talking about states
13:17:35 <Ilari> IPv4 blocks, IPv6 /32s.
13:17:44 <Vorpal> Ilari, what is the relative allocation rates for ipv6 between the RIRs?
13:17:52 <oerjan> cheater99: well the problem there is you can get more that two bishops, say
13:18:06 <Vorpal> Ilari, and how much did it speed up for them after APNIC ran out ov ipv4?
13:20:25 <Ilari> Total IPv6 allocations since APNIC ran out (a week): 102 /32 + 4324 /48s.
13:20:42 <oerjan> <cheater99> zzo38: yes, this "at first opportunity" thing totally creates zillions of states
13:21:26 <oerjan> not really, you only need 9 options for whether a pawn moved in that particular way last time and if so which
13:21:42 <Vorpal> Ilari, huge increase then?
13:21:51 <Vorpal> Ilari, did it affect the other RIRs rate too?
13:21:59 <Ilari> Well, this stuff is fourth quadrant to the max.
13:22:53 <Ilari> IPv4 blocks since then: 0.081
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13:42:10 <Ilari> Global IPv6 depletion: 0.027644%
13:44:33 <Ilari> RIR IPv6 depletion: 2.801%
13:49:05 <Ilari> 9 726 455 456 /48s allocated.
13:49:34 <Ilari> Heh, wonder how long it takes to break 10 billion /48s...
13:52:03 <Ilari> One super-large ISP and one large ISP and it is there.
13:53:43 <Ilari> Yes, Some ISPs have gotten /20s.
13:57:47 <zzo38> I know exactly what is wrong with the program; however, I cannot think of the way to correct it.
13:59:22 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Well, this stuff is fourth quadrant to the max. <-- btw, why is it called "fourth quadrant"?
14:02:25 <oerjan> um if this is a complex number or xy plane, then the quadrants are customarily numbered counterclockwise starting at the x > 0, y > 0 one
14:02:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, this is about statistics
14:02:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, ipv6 allocation rate.
14:03:20 <oerjan> maybe it's a star trek reference, they have those galaxy quadrants
14:03:39 <Vorpal> lets wait for Ilari to explain it
14:03:54 * Vorpal waits while new kernel builds
14:04:10 <oerjan> no let us speculate widely and then ban him for trolling when he disagrees with what we come up with
14:06:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, or maybe we could *gasp* google?
14:06:23 <oerjan> bringing out the big guns, are we?
14:06:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes, *looks for link*
14:06:55 <oklopol> deer are hunted using big guns
14:07:34 <oerjan> Ilari is a deer? that explains so much
14:07:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, this gun: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/GAU-8_meets_VW_Type_1.jpg
14:07:46 <Vorpal> the gun is the object behind the car
14:07:59 <Vorpal> it is one some sort of trolley
14:08:11 <oklopol> yeah i wasn't sure whether it was the car or the huge gun that's the gun so thanks for explaining
14:08:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, you are welcome
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15:15:44 <zzo38> I want to cast "Break Into Debugger" spell.
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15:18:56 <oerjan> zzo38: that reminds me of the ed stories
15:20:00 <oerjan> they managed to hack into the underlying implementation of reality
15:21:33 <oerjan> causing cosmic disaster
15:22:01 <zzo38> Other spell I want to cast is "Fourier Transform" and "Circling the Square" and "This is Not a Pipe".
15:23:10 <oerjan> fourier transform needs to be cast with some frequency
15:25:03 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlZq3ZDLkak&NR=1&feature=fvwp
15:28:51 <zzo38> But I also want to cast "Feign Visibility" and "Merciful to Gibbering Mouthers" and "Detect Detections" and "Fire to Water".
15:29:51 <zzo38> Do you know about any of these spells?
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15:31:33 <cheater99> well fire to water is fairly simple
15:31:35 <zzo38> I want a magic ring that changes its color to whatever you want it to be but has no other effects.
15:31:48 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out what "Feign Visibility" would do, but it sounds like a great spell
15:31:50 <oerjan> hm detect detections... maybe one could have a self-application spell that could be applied to any other
15:32:07 <ais523> oerjan: so it, umm, heals healing spells?
15:32:15 <zzo38> oerjan: I mean, like other spell in D&D game such as "Detect Evil", "Detect Lawful", and so on.
15:32:40 <ais523> oerjan: I think a diagonal argument proves that combined with pretty much any other metaspell, that spell can't exist
15:32:48 <cheater99> i am making a list of (embarassingly) parallel problems
15:32:53 <cheater99> anyone want to take a look at my notes?
15:33:10 <oerjan> ais523: hey you just need to disallow any function without a fixpoint (such as negation) :D
15:33:11 <zzo38> cheater99: Can you type a few examples here?
15:33:42 <ais523> oerjan: good point, although I can't think of any metaspells that have non-degenerate fixed points
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15:34:28 <oerjan> i wondered a long time ago if you could make a pure lambda calculus for something resembling logic if you did that...
15:34:34 <ais523> zzo38: can't you detect detection spells with a simple detect magic, combined with enough Spellcraft ranks to determine that the detections are level 1 divination spells?
15:34:59 <cheater99> zzo38: sure but they're about 6 print pages. can i paste in 6 print pages?
15:35:12 <zzo38> cheater99: No, just a few short examples.
15:35:12 <ais523> cheater99: you could use a pastebin
15:35:28 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but this would be different, it can last longer and can see if they are such detection spells, whether or not they detect you, and so on.
15:35:39 <ais523> are you including problems that parallelise to map+fold, i.e. become O(log n) when parallelised rather than O(1)?
15:35:50 <ais523> I'm not sure if that counts as embarassingly parallel or not
15:36:09 <ais523> and there are other situations, like matrix multiplication, which is O(n) when parallelised (and O(n^2) sequentially)
15:36:36 <cheater99> ais523: i was just pasting as you typed that.
15:37:06 <oerjan> ais523: i recall i had this strange idea (a bit unmotivated but...) that you could have an LC model in which every function was uniquely determined by its set of fixed points
15:37:23 <oerjan> (i didn't prove you could, it was just an idea)
15:37:57 <cheater99> there's links to papers and books and stuff
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15:38:25 <ais523> oerjan: it works if the only type you have is the boolean
15:38:28 <cheater99> it's very unorderly, a lot of the stuff is just applications (i need real world applications a lot), in the end i'll sort applications by underlying problem
15:38:29 <ais523> at least at first order
15:38:31 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:38:34 <oerjan> it was based on noticing that it seemed to work for things like `kx and i
15:38:46 <oerjan> ais523: um this was untyped, definitely
15:38:50 <cheater99> if anyone has any other applications (especially in biotech research) i'm all ears
15:38:54 <ais523> oerjan: ah, OK, that's a little saner
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15:39:27 <ais523> if you mean the Unlambda sense of purely functional where the only thing functions can operate on are different functions
15:41:02 <zzo38> cheater99: I think the list is good enough so far. I also think, could some cellular automata such as game of life, be computed using convolution and lookup
15:41:04 <oerjan> elliott: they must have removed it
15:41:18 <cheater99> zzo38: keep em coming, any other ideas?
15:41:29 <oerjan> ais523: yes that was the idea
15:41:36 <zzo38> cheater99: Not at this time.
15:41:44 <ais523> oerjan: if that works, that's completely insane but beautiful
15:41:57 <ais523> cheater99: I haven't looked at it
15:41:59 <oerjan> cheater99: i know i'm just assuming he logreads
15:42:54 <ais523> Gregor: insane feature suggestion for glogbot: let stalker mode send as well as read, so there'd be no reason to ever log onto IRC at all
15:43:13 <cheater99> oerjan: Restate my assumptions: One, Mathematics is the language of nature. Two, Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. Three: If you graph the numbers of any system, patterns emerge.
15:43:17 <oerjan> cue banning glogbot in 3,2,...
15:44:04 <Gregor> ais523: elliott already suggested that :P
15:44:05 <cheater99> just a movie quote which you reminded me of.
15:44:12 <zzo38> Or else +q'ing glogbot instead of +b is also one way
15:44:31 <cheater99> let's pro-actively +q glogbot before elliott does it
15:45:10 <oerjan> cheater99: a bit early if they add something actually _useful_ for it to say...
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15:53:31 <oerjan> <oerjan> elliott: they must have removed it
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15:59:32 <oerjan> ais523: for that matter i haven't proved that the usual lambda calculus beta-eta-equivalence doesn't have this property, either
16:00:30 <oerjan> hm ideally you should only need to look at the expressions composed from s and k
16:02:27 <zzo38> I wrote a program, I know exactly what is wrong with it but not sure the best way to correct it. Do you know how to do it?
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16:03:18 <Vorpal> zzo38, surely you realise you have to provide more details than that for us to be able to have any opinion on it
16:03:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, there are some things for you to log read.
16:04:04 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/LATI
16:04:05 <elliott_> i think i saw one thing. what are the others.
16:04:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, uh? a highlight about linux kernel size vs. inferno
16:04:39 <Vorpal> nothing else from me at least
16:05:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, I wonder how compressed linux kernel source can be a frigging 77 MB!
16:05:29 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a lot of it...
16:05:49 <Vorpal> ais523, yes but even so. It seems absurd
16:06:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: What is the size vs inferno? And what is the speed vs? etc?
16:06:41 <Vorpal> 72Mlinux-2.6.38.4.tar.bz2
16:06:41 <Vorpal> 52Minferno-20100120.tgz
16:06:52 <Vorpal> and inferno tarball includes user space too
16:07:14 <Vorpal> besides it is gzip, which on average doesn't compress as well as bzip2
16:08:03 <zzo38> Do you know how to correct my program? And then I can learn, and can do it myself too.
16:08:12 <Vorpal> zzo38, I can't read that program.
16:08:37 <Vorpal> it looks like tex, yet not
16:08:57 <Vorpal> there is so much info you need to provide
16:09:00 <Vorpal> what is wrong with it, and where
16:09:59 <zzo38> What is wrong, is that of the move sequences are wrong not all scores are equal, yet it will display anyways, it needs to somehow keep the list of only the correct sequences so that it can ignore the others.
16:11:21 <zzo38> I was wonder if anyone knows how to program these kind of thing, so that I can learn, too, and correct it.
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16:12:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: If you do not know, do you know if someone else knows?
16:12:42 <Vorpal> or maybe try elliott_ ;)
16:13:24 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know?
16:13:40 <ais523> zzo38: let me look at hte program
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16:15:30 <ais523> zzo38: that code's a bit long for me to find a problem in
16:15:47 <zzo38> ais523: I described what is wrong already.
16:16:02 <ais523> yep, but knowing what a problem is and finding it in the program are two different things
16:16:30 <zzo38> OK, it is the |analysis| subroutine that is causing this problem.
16:18:12 <ais523> zzo38: I think you might need to add in penalties for time-wasting, so to speak
16:18:30 <ais523> because that sort of analysis works best if you have scores in between the maximum and minimum, as well as the maximum and minimum themselves
16:18:53 <ais523> also, "if(score==checkmate) score=mv" looks wrong to me, although I'm not sure as I can't follow the code too well
16:20:14 <zzo38> No, it seems to work. The problem is what I described before, that some sequences of moves do not always contain the correct score for all moves in the sequence, which should not be considered valid and not be displayed. Then it will display only some moves in the sequence, when it should display none of them.
16:21:58 <ais523> wouldn't it be simplest to just not display such sequences, then, rather than trying to remove them earlier?
16:22:01 <zzo38> The chunk titled "Deal with recording after the move" makes those decisions but it should need help a bit...
16:22:21 <zzo38> ais523: It displays one move at a time, is why.
16:24:33 <zzo38> The paragraph starting "After every move, ..." should explain what "if(score==checkmate) score=mv" is for, hopefully.
16:26:21 <zzo38> Can you understand a bit better now? Or do you still don't know?
16:27:10 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise the chunks were actual code, I thought it was just things-you-hadn't-written-yet pseudocode
16:28:07 <impomatic> Cool, computer in ><> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish#Computus :-)
16:29:53 <zzo38> Now you know when is Easter Sunday? I think it is today.
16:30:31 <impomatic> Today? Why haven't I received any eggs?
16:31:36 <zzo38> impomatic: I don't know why.
16:35:19 <zzo38> ais523: Now does it help that you know about that?
16:37:36 <oerjan> absolutely today, the neighborhood café was closed :(
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17:09:03 <cheater99> ais523: have you perhaps had time to have a look yet?
17:09:10 <elliott_> -MemoServ- You are not logged in.
17:09:38 <ais523> elliott_: how do I ghost someone without knowing their password?
17:09:43 * oerjan has no idea how to ghost another person's nick
17:09:53 <ais523> oerjan: /msg nickserv ghost username password
17:09:55 <elliott_> ais523: well someone very helpfully did it for me a few days ago
17:10:02 <oerjan> ais523: _another_ person
17:10:07 <ais523> oerjan: thus the password at the end
17:10:13 <ais523> if you're ghosting your own nick, you don't need the password
17:10:14 <cheater99> oerjan: you just need the password.
17:10:17 <ais523> so long as you're identified
17:10:56 <oerjan> obviously i was asking an equivalent question to "without the password"
17:11:33 <oerjan> elliott_: are you _sure_ that event was not just a coincidence?
17:11:35 <ais523> well, obviously you shouldn't be able to do that
17:11:54 <ais523> an oper could k-line someone, which would have much the same effect
17:11:59 <ais523> but k-lining ghosts seems like overkill
17:12:02 <oerjan> actually i sort of recall seeing "nick collision" then
17:12:04 <elliott_> oerjan: it said killed by services, and as I can't type my password without my number keys, it couldn't possibly have been me!
17:12:32 <oerjan> well i guess someone may know a hack
17:12:38 <ais523> elliott_: could you change your password?
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17:12:49 <elliott_> ais523: not without typing my current one
17:12:53 <ais523> and 0123456789 you can copy-paste from that to type your current one
17:13:19 <elliott_> & as I've said, I *can't* do that! (#1 thing I can't do)
17:13:33 <oerjan> elliott_: this is obviously your karma for using a password written only using the number row >:D
17:13:40 <elliott_> not even if i put $999 towards it
17:13:53 <ais523> and, hmm, there are numbers in your last few comments
17:14:48 <ais523> oerjan: there are numbers in your comment too!
17:15:17 <elliott_> ais523: if you haven't realised by now, I used all number-row punctuation there :)
17:15:38 <ais523> I misse the punctuation
17:15:50 <ais523> but then, I didn't know for certain that the keys didn't work shifted
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17:17:36 <oerjan> i am now going to suspect elliott of having done the ghosting himself, back when
17:18:13 <cheater99> hey guys, general question, if i want to write a bijective function and have the language be able to automatically find the inverse, what do i need to do? what does the language need to be?
17:18:26 <oerjan> and having made up the whole keyboard thing from the start
17:18:35 <oerjan> just lightly suspect, mind you
17:18:57 <elliott_> or _maybe_ I'm not /that/ devious and just used a virtual keyboard
17:19:08 <oerjan> cheater99: well a reversible language might be nice for it...
17:19:13 <elliott_> after all, I've been painstakingly typing out numbers in private messages, I'm not that much of a chump for a prank ;D
17:19:23 <elliott_> "That is an absolutely preposterous amount of Daves."
17:19:29 <elliott_> <ais523> but then, I didn't know for certain that the keys didn't work shifted
17:19:35 <elliott_> if they did, it would be a software problem
17:19:41 <elliott_> since shift is a separate scancode thing
17:19:54 <cheater99> oerjan: you mean like befunge or something?
17:19:57 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:19:58 <ais523> elliott_: not necessarily, the mistake could be in the keyboard controller somewhere
17:20:00 <HackEgo> 148) <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing
17:20:02 <ais523> cheater99: that isn't reversible
17:20:13 <oerjan> cheater99: befunge isn't reversible, but the wiki has a category for reversible computing
17:20:50 <zzo38> I think Befreak is meant to be based on Befunge but reversible, there are also other 2-D reversible program languages
17:21:35 <oerjan> mind you this essentially amounts to having to write the function in such a way that it is easily reversible, so it might not actually help you if you have a _genuine_ function inversion problem
17:21:53 <oerjan> in which case probably try a computer algebra system
17:22:09 <elliott_> more like a pomcuter salgebra ystem
17:22:30 * oerjan gets not the reference
17:22:38 <zzo38> Including: 2D-Reverse BackFlip Befreak Reversible-2D Ora Memfractal
17:22:47 <elliott_> mour yum goesn't det re theference
17:23:18 <elliott_> I forget, did oerjan ever decide if a language where reverse(P) = P caret -one was possible or not?
17:23:29 <elliott_> I think I decided it was, with two-character commands
17:24:04 <oklopol> yeah elliott_, try answering that
17:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott_> I forget, did oerjan ever decide if a language where reverse(P) = P caret -one was possible or not?
17:25:12 <cheater99> here's a usecase: say i have something that parses xml and turns it into json
17:25:18 <oerjan> elliott_: i still think you could select single self-inverse command characters as a basis for that
17:25:24 <cheater99> i want to automatically get something that takes that json and parses it back to xml
17:26:08 <elliott_> if we have valid function decl syntaxes as "foo { ... } oof" and "foo } ... { oof"...
17:26:12 <oklopol> cheater99: be interested in more interesting things
17:26:33 <oerjan> elliott_: it would be a variant of cpressey's language that i forget the name of
17:26:35 <cheater99> oklopol: that is very interesting, you suck
17:26:47 <oerjan> oh hm he had nesting which was a bit of a problem
17:27:31 <oerjan> although nesting itself doesn't prevent the reverse(P)=P^-1 property, just making it out of single commands
17:28:48 <oerjan> cheater99: i once saw a post somewhere about someone making bidirectional parsers, i think in haskell
17:29:10 <cheater99> oerjan: but i don't think a bidirectional parser is what we're looking for here
17:29:16 <elliott_> i talked with someone about that in hash-haskell.
17:29:19 <cheater99> i don't think it's enough to just play the source backwards.
17:29:23 <elliott_> it turns out that the kind of parsers that can do that are pretty limited.
17:29:31 <oerjan> cheater99: your xml -> json case would be one...
17:29:38 <elliott_> so basically it's a waste of time.
17:29:48 <cheater99> oerjan: oh, i thought what you mean was this source code reversal thing
17:30:10 <oerjan> no, i meant genuinely writing parsers that could transform both ways
17:30:21 <oklopol> maybe you could use prolog
17:30:34 <oerjan> prolog is also nice for that yeah
17:30:37 <oklopol> because prolog backwards is golorp
17:30:57 <cheater99> oklopol: i'm sorry, talking to oerjan who finds my parser idea interesting
17:31:23 <oerjan> although neither of these methods relieve you having to write the original parser in a way that makes it at least somewhat easily reversed
17:31:39 <ais523> elliott_: # is shift-3 for you, not to the right of '?
17:31:41 <cheater99> oerjan: i think it would be necessary to build a language that uses inherently symmetrical constructs
17:31:50 <cheater99> for example, instead of replacement of strings, swapping of strings
17:31:56 <oerjan> cheater99: prolog does that
17:32:31 <oklopol> cheater99: oerjan is doing it sarcastically though
17:33:07 <cheater99> oklopol: only if sarcasm === true interest
17:34:10 <oerjan> cheater99: in prolog you write predicates instead of functions, and they don't need to distinguish which argument is input and which is output.
17:34:58 <oerjan> if written right you can go either way. unfortunately sometimes you need to sacrifice that for efficiency.
17:35:35 <cheater99> oerjan: i was wondering if haskell's approach where you define computation by saying what things are, as opposed to how to compute them, could be good enough
17:35:58 <cheater99> say if i have f x = 2*x it's obviously trivial to invert
17:36:56 <oerjan> cheater99: prolog's fits better i think, because in haskell you cannot treat argument and result equally
17:37:10 <cheater99> if i have f :: [Char] -> String, f x:xs = "" ++ x ++ f xs, i wonder how that's inversible
17:37:33 <cheater99> (this type def might be wrong, i'm still not that good with hs)
17:37:36 <oerjan> cheater99: you're missing parentheses around x:xs
17:38:57 <cheater99> now if i wanted to write that in prolog, how would i do that?
17:39:06 <oerjan> cheater99: that f is either concat (if the type is wrong) or id (if the ++ f xs should be : f xs)
17:39:23 <oerjan> (ignoring the missing empty set case)
17:39:31 <oerjan> and concat isn't invertible
17:39:39 <cheater99> oh, wait, in haskell strings are list of characters
17:40:27 <cheater99> f :: [Char] -> [Char], f (x:xs) = x:'_':(f xs)
17:41:20 <cheater99> so this is a bijection from strings to s_t_r_i_n_g_s_.
17:42:17 <oerjan> > intersperse '_' "strings"
17:43:20 <cheater99> so how do i express this in prolog?
17:44:39 <oerjan> something like f([],[]). f([X|Xs],[X|['_'|Ys]]) :- f(Xs,Ys).
17:44:47 <ais523> intersperse(_,[],[]). intersperse(C,[H|T],[H,C|T2]) :- intersperse(C, T, T2).
17:44:49 <oerjan> i don't recall the character syntax
17:45:36 <oerjan> or that you could put more than one item before the |
17:46:11 <oerjan> also it wasn't intersperse, he said :D
17:48:57 <oerjan> and that prolog predicate would allow you to go either way. if you fed it intersperse(x, X, [s,x,t,x,r,x,i,x,n,x,g,x]) as a question it would give X = [s,t,r,i,n,g] out
17:50:57 <oerjan> or even intersperse(C, X, [s,x,t,x,r,x,i,x,n,x,g,x]) should give C=x, X=[s,t,r,i,n,g]
17:51:45 <oerjan> while intersperse(C, X, [s,x,t,y]) would respond "No." for no answer.
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18:02:26 <cheater99> does this mean that prolog is the ultimate language for form validation?
18:04:49 <oerjan> well it should work well enough...
18:05:36 <oerjan> actually this style might not be very good for giving good error messages when the form _isn't_ valid
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18:40:54 <Gregor> elliott_: OpenWatcom has its own clib on Linux :P
18:41:06 <elliott_> Is that a really retarded way of saying libc?
18:41:23 <Gregor> Oh yeah, sorry, it's the DOS/Watcom/lolthiscompilerisolde way of saying that >_>
18:41:53 <Gregor> Mind you, this compiler is garbagetastic, but hey, it's got its own non-GNU libc :P
18:44:58 <elliott_> Gregor: How terrible is the libc? :P
18:45:37 <Gregor> Well, it has malloc, but it doesn't have MAP_ANON ...
18:46:02 <Gregor> Which isn't a particularly broad measurement, but it's what I figured out :P
18:46:13 <Gregor> Oh, and before you ask, of COURSE it's 32-bit only.
18:46:59 <elliott_> Gregor: How's it compare to musl X-D
18:47:32 <Gregor> Donno, haven't tried musl.
18:48:09 <elliott_> Gregor: It's like every non-GNU libc ever, except ten times better :P http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html
18:48:29 <elliott_> In that it's actually pretty objectively superior to glibc in both performance /and/ size.
18:49:01 <elliott_> I would be pretty surprised if OpenWatcom's was better :P
18:49:10 <Gregor> License? And yeah, it's almost assuredly better than OpenWatcom's :P
18:49:46 <Gregor> But number one reason to mention it was this trololol:
18:49:47 <Gregor> $ file rel2/lib386/linux/clib3r.lib
18:49:47 <Gregor> rel2/lib386/linux/clib3r.lib: Microsoft Visual C library
18:50:16 <elliott_> Gregor: License is on that page, LGPL two point one plus :P
18:50:59 <Gregor> Not GPL+lol_I_dont_get_licenses like dietlibc at least.
18:51:36 <elliott_> And it has things like threads and locales (although just C.UTF-[eight] for now).
18:51:45 <elliott_> And a faster stdio than glibc.
18:52:08 <Gregor> GPL_lol_I_dont_get_licenses: Worst license ever?
18:53:52 <elliott_> Gregor: Apart from the Microsoft Sperm-Ownership Communal Source Redistribution License, yes.
18:54:46 <Gregor> That's an Apple license.
18:55:14 <elliott_> Gregor: Your denial is palatable, ex-shill.
18:55:18 <elliott_> (Can you even be an EX-shill???????)
18:56:30 <Gregor> Your lexical failure is palatable.
18:57:38 <oerjan> i thought we had established that to Gregor, nothing is palatable
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18:58:40 <Sgeo> I made an online purchase WITHOUT MY DAD'S INVOLVEMENT!
18:59:05 <elliott_> I AM SCARED OF THIS BURGEONING NEW AGE OF SGEO NOT BEING A COMPLETE SLAVE
18:59:08 <ais523> I don't get the acronym OMGWTFBBQ
18:59:20 <ais523> as in, I understand why it stands for, just not why what it stands for is useful
18:59:20 <elliott_> ais523: oh my god what the fuck barbecue
18:59:25 <Gregor> ais523: Oh my God, what the??? Fuck a barbeque!
18:59:26 <Sgeo> Just the latest humble bundle
18:59:33 <Sgeo> I don't have much money in my PayPal account
18:59:35 <ais523> elliott_: no, as that isn't what I was having trouble with
18:59:40 <oerjan> ais523: it's a meta-joke on acronyms duh
18:59:44 <Sgeo> And I'm still having difficulty transfering Second Life funds to it
18:59:45 <elliott_> ais523: Do you also not get XXXXXXX99XX9XX9eleventyoneXX999? Where X is an exclamation mark and 9 is one.
18:59:50 <elliott_> Because it's basically the same thing.
18:59:54 <ais523> elliott_: it's funnier the way you wrote it
19:00:02 <ais523> it's a parody of acronyms
19:00:14 <elliott_> It's a ridiculously over-the-top expression of surprise :P
19:01:08 <oerjan> elliott_: I CONSIDER IT ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE
19:01:30 <Gregor> If it's used sarcastically, why have I been wasting my time fucking all these barbeques!
19:01:36 * oerjan checks cheater99's bingo sheet
19:01:46 <elliott_> Gregor: 'cuz it's soooo goooood.
19:02:07 <Sgeo> Well, actually, my dad was indirectly involved
19:02:07 <ais523> Gregor: I don't think that can ever be described as a total waste of time...
19:02:29 <elliott_> ais523: Because it's... worthwhile?
19:02:34 <Sgeo> He did give me money for the mall, and I bought the Amex gift card at the mall
19:02:57 <Sgeo> But now I can use PayPal for stuff!
19:03:07 <oerjan> Gregor: what i want to ask is whether they were in use at the time
19:03:25 <Sgeo> The Trine trailer's music is beautiful
19:09:27 <Gregor> <oerjan> Gregor: what i want to ask is whether they were in use at the time // one could say I was "using" them.
19:09:45 <Gregor> I was "cooking" a "sausage" at the OK I'm done, no more of this.
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19:12:59 <Gregor> Smallest static C program 0.4k
19:13:26 <Gregor> Mind, dietlibc is smaller, but I didn't realize anything could make GCC spit out a <1K binary :P
19:14:01 <elliott_> Gregor: dietlibc is smaller by way of sucking at everything :P
19:14:14 <elliott_> Quicksort? Linear stack usage hurp durp that sounds sane and reasonable
19:15:40 <Gregor> Both are smaller than a disk block :P
19:16:44 <calamari> you can do a decent amount in 512 bytes
19:17:30 <calamari> I wonderi f they still do those 512b demos (among other sizes)
19:17:31 <elliott_> Yeah, like exit without doing anything in C :P
19:19:38 <calamari> elliott_: were' you writing another 512 byte os?
19:19:51 <elliott_> well that forth almost has a compiler now :D
19:19:58 <elliott_> it gets worked on approximately once per week :P
19:27:55 <Sgeo> There's supposed to be a legit MC trial, right?
19:28:01 <Sgeo> I can't seem to get it to work
19:28:04 <elliott_> There's a shitty demo, but you're better off pirating.
19:28:08 <elliott_> It's just the game limited to 90 minutes.
19:28:36 <Sgeo> elliott_, I just want to double-check that the thing with the mouse will be ok in the legit version
19:28:45 <Sgeo> I'll probably buy it 5 minutes after I see that
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19:41:48 <Sgeo> Whyn must Minecraft make my computer a bitch?
19:43:35 <oerjan> ITYM "Minecraft Y U *hit by falling anvil*
19:44:12 <elliott_> copumpkin: Have you seen this: Oh no! I was the original author of data-accessor, and then I passed it over to Henning and stopped paying attention. The a -> r -> (a,r) representation also makes me uncomfortable, and my original implementation was just like your Lens type. Heeennnninngg!! – luqui 51 mins ago
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20:44:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, hey the automatic transparent huge page stuff in 2.6.38 makes a difference for minecraft performance
20:44:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'm somewhat surprised it is noticable
20:44:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, I guess that indicates that java has *really* poor locality of reference
20:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh and that the TLB cache on this CPU is tiny
20:45:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, what kernel are you on?
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20:53:56 <elliott_> copumpkin: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5767129/lenses-fclabels-data-accessor-which-library-for-structure-access-and-mutation
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20:59:16 <impomatic> Has anyone made a scratch hologram?
20:59:41 <elliott_> That sounds far more awesome in my mind than what you actually mean.
21:00:25 <impomatic> Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmGgmhWBAc
21:00:50 <impomatic> Some of these are pretty good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUy8lELWhJg
21:01:04 <Sgeo> I guess that person id
21:02:04 <oerjan> scratch and fnarf-o-gram
21:09:38 <impomatic> Looks impressive... I'm planning to try it this week.
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21:44:16 <lament> yeah, i always had problems with the 'dying' conduct
21:44:30 <elliott_> I keep ascending. It's soooo annoying.
21:46:47 <lament> that was my problem with nethack and the reason i stopped playing
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