00:00:22 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
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00:37:08 -!- tswett has changed nick to tswett_56.
00:37:19 <tswett_56> Today, I learned my rank. It's 56.
00:38:54 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_346126.
00:40:08 <tswett_56> My rank in #jbopre, according to djanatyn.
00:40:35 <elliott> What on earth is that thing.
00:40:43 <elliott> Something Lojban-related, presumably.
00:40:53 <elliott> It means "lojbanist", it seems.
00:41:17 <elliott> oklopol: paste reactions plz
00:41:18 <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea
00:41:26 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea
00:41:30 <HackEgo> 380) <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea
00:41:47 <oklopol> disclaimer: i don't actually know what esperato is like
00:41:49 <tswett_56> Yo puedo diarrhea hablar en diarrhea esperanto.
00:42:06 <oklopol> i can diarrhea speak in diarrhea esperanto?
00:42:07 <tswett_56> oklopol: lo estoy haciendo correctamente?
00:42:28 <oklopol> this is being done correctly
00:42:54 <oklopol> excellent, thank you my sweetheart
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00:43:22 <oklopol> is ayuda something to do with listening
00:43:36 <tswett_56> That would be "Y tú marques la pregunta".
00:44:28 <tswett_56> Y ahora puedo usar acentos. Vóy á ponérlos pór tóda párte.
00:45:07 <oklopol> and now i can use accents. i'm going to go to every party.
00:45:14 <oerjan> and you're pregnant on the mark
00:45:44 <tswett_56> Voy a asistir a cada fiesta. Y eres embarazado en el marque.
00:45:51 <oklopol> i actually even understood the word pregunta in spanish speech today
00:46:03 <tswett_56> I'm pretty sure that in Spanish, "atender" is "to assist" and "asistir" is "to attend".
00:46:14 <tswett_56> Which makes sense, if you think about it.
00:46:33 <oklopol> i'm going to assist in the creation of an awesome party. and you are so embarrassed in the marks!
00:47:09 <oklopol> [03:43:59] <tswett_56> Hi, elliott. Bye, elliott.
00:47:09 <oklopol> [03:44:10] <tswett_56> Meet elliott, whose rank is, like, 81 or something.
00:47:09 <oklopol> [03:46:18] <oklopol> yeah elliott is a famous bisexual
00:47:26 <oerjan> don't disturb the translator
00:47:34 <tswett_56> Voy a atender a la creación de una fiesta excelente. ¡Y tú tienes tantas vergüenzas en las marques!
00:47:41 <tswett_56> elliott: no, your rank is 2 at the highest.
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00:48:16 <tswett_56> From now on, whenever possible, I shall write every word in suomi.
00:48:22 <tswett_56> As you can tell, I don't know very many suomen words.
00:48:27 <oklopol> no, tu ranco es en las maximos dos!
00:48:56 <tswett_56> Tu ranco es dos a lo máximo, I think.
00:49:17 <tswett_56> I don't know. That might not mean "rank" like that.
00:49:34 <tswett_56> Here we go. "Word" is "sana", so...
00:49:45 <oklopol> suomen sanat = finnish words
00:49:46 <tswett_56> mad: "al" in Spanish is a contraction for "a el".
00:50:08 <tswett_56> Now if I can just learn the rest of Finnish.
00:51:05 <oerjan> you forgot to translate "the" into the correct ""
00:51:11 <oklopol> i'd actually say loput suomen kielest, "the ends from finland's language"
00:52:02 <oklopol> you meant the because you have rest
00:52:19 <tswett_56> I have to opetella loput suomen kielestä, or summat.
00:52:54 <mad> how does suomi decline?
00:52:55 <oerjan> this reminds me about a norwegian joke about how the french pronounce "høst" (norw. for autumn)
00:53:28 <oerjan> h is silent, st is silent at the end of words, and ø doesn't exist, so: ""
00:54:01 <mad> oerjan: it's ts that's silent at the end of words
00:54:12 <tswett_56> Yeah, what's the genitive of minä?
00:54:23 <oklopol> minun, mun, meikn, meitsin, meiklisen, miun, mu
00:54:39 <oklopol> in all seriousness you write minun, usually say mun
00:54:40 <mad> I can't think of a french word ending in st
00:54:41 <oerjan> hm i guess it's not silent in ouest
00:54:54 <tswett_56> elliott: it turns out your ranking is 82.5.
00:55:11 <tswett_56> Minun pitää opetella loput suomen kielestä, then?
00:55:27 <oerjan> mad: it's silent in "est", though :D
00:55:37 <mad> oerjan: some dialects might say "oues" but it's variable
00:55:53 <mad> oerjan: if you mean to be instead of east yeah :D
00:56:17 <tswett_56> I ought to learn how to conjugate some common stuff.
00:56:39 <tswett_56> Minä on... is it on? There was some nice and simple way to conjugate this stuff.
00:57:10 <tswett_56> The negation verb is conjugated ei, et, en in the singular present, right?
00:57:13 <oklopol> olla => olen olet on olemme olette ovat
00:57:31 <tswett_56> And then if I can remember that one word...
00:57:41 <oklopol> en, et, ei, emme, ette, eivt
00:58:18 <mad> I might have to come up with a new morphological type for my conlang :(
00:59:18 <mad> I'll have to group a lot of inflections together into a single syllable
00:59:19 <tswett_56> And I should learn the connegatives, I guess.
00:59:27 <mad> dunno if any real language does that
00:59:41 <oklopol> "oletko sin koira" is how you ask if i'm a dog, "sin olet koira?" works just like "you are a dog?" works in english toh
00:59:56 <oerjan> mad: um any indoeuropean languages with intact case systems?
01:00:09 <tswett_56> Midun äiti estas... drat, I went into Esperanto.
01:00:36 <oerjan> case, number and gender usually give just one syllable combined
01:00:53 <oklopol> even oerjan can correct that sentence
01:01:07 <mad> oerjan: eh, yeah, that's not quite false
01:01:11 <tswett_56> Sweet, the connegatives here are all the same.
01:01:31 <tswett_56> Minä ei ole koira. Sinä et ole koira. elliott en ole koira.
01:01:35 <oerjan> mad: well not one syllable in all combinations
01:01:40 <elliott> I DON'T RESPOND TO PUNGS IN THIS CHANEL
01:01:40 <oklopol> tswett_56: you have those backwards
01:02:00 <mad> I kinda want to combine verb subject/object/transitivity/copula/benefactive/locative, roll them together into one verbal prefix
01:02:03 <oerjan> tswett_56: erm what you don't believe oklopol do you?
01:02:24 <tswett_56> oerjan: of course I do. He outranks you.
01:02:36 <tswett_56> oklopol: are you saying en is first-person and ei is third-?
01:02:58 <oerjan> mad: well you have a problem with information density, you could of course have a lot of phonemes to help...
01:03:01 <oklopol> also my mom is minun itini or mun iti
01:03:25 <tswett_56> Minä en ole koira. elliott ei ole koira. Minun äitini on koira.
01:03:31 <mad> oerjan: yeah was thinking of having lots of vowels and some tones but simple syllable structure
01:03:35 <elliott> i don't respond to pugs in this coco chanel
01:03:46 <mad> like, at least 14 vowels (if you count nasals)
01:04:07 <tswett_56> Ah, -ni is that possessive suffix thing.
01:04:36 <mad> should be able to get a few thousand syllables
01:04:53 <tswett_56> And now I need some more nouns, I think.
01:04:58 <oklopol> prolly wouldn't say that in speech tho
01:05:09 <oklopol> you'd say mun iti on koira
01:05:15 <mad> the real problem is not information density (with syllables that huge), it's coming up with a morphology that doesn't blow up
01:05:49 <tswett_56> Finnish either has a perfect speech-writing correspondence or the worst one imaginable.
01:05:49 <mad> the syllables are huge and not particularly flexible so it's really hard to do lots of affixation like agglutinative language
01:06:28 <oklopol> rather perfect, or at least consistent
01:06:37 <mad> and afaik most real languages with this kind of phonologic systems (huge syllables but simple syllable structure) are ultra isolating
01:07:07 <mad> so if I want affixes I absolutely have to roll them together into simple syllablees
01:07:11 <tswett_56> "How do you pronounce 'olen'?" "Oh, that's pronounced 'oon'." "How about 'minä'?" "That's 'mä'."
01:07:34 <oklopol> no you pronounce "olen" as "olen"
01:07:42 <oklopol> and you pronounce "min" as "min"
01:07:51 <mad> is it "mineh"?
01:07:58 <oerjan> mad: you know 14 vowels is fewer than what swedish and norwegian has if you include length. but neither has much heaping on of inflections.
01:08:26 <mad> oerjan: but those languages have flexible syllable structure
01:08:57 <mad> oerjan: also they cheat (they combine with length)
01:09:20 <oklopol> kuvalla on koiran symisest huonoja kokemuksia
01:09:31 <oerjan> LENGTH IS A RESPECTABLE QUALITY
01:09:41 <tswett_56> Something is dog something something something?
01:09:45 <mad> yeah I might put in length too, I'm not sure
01:09:52 <mad> depends on how it interplays with tone
01:09:56 <oklopol> huonoja kokemuksi a= bad experiences
01:10:20 <tswett_56> Picture is dog something bad experiences?
01:10:30 <tswett_56> Is "koiran" the accusative or the genitive here?
01:11:03 <mad> But there's a huge chance I go with something like /a e i o u @ M/ then add probably at least /2 y/, maybe /E O/, maybe-perhaps more
01:11:05 <oklopol> the picture has bad experiences on eating dogs
01:11:10 <mad> plus nasal versions of like every vowel
01:11:14 <oerjan> mad: also they have pitch accents :)
01:11:27 <tswett_56> Okay, kuvalla must be... is that another genitive?
01:11:47 <mad> oerjan: ha yeah, it's like lots of falling tones everywhere :D
01:12:07 <tswett_56> Adessive... does that generally mean "at"?
01:13:06 <tswett_56> And then syömisestä is some eating thing..
01:13:46 <oerjan> syömi looks like some weird umlauted version of suomi...
01:14:09 <tswett_56> That looks like some weird umlauted version of "suominen".
01:14:15 <tswett_56> What the heck is a "suominen", anyway?
01:14:50 <oklopol> why would you know that's a diminutive suffix
01:15:08 <tswett_56> I noticed that Finns' surnames mean stuff, so I looked them up.
01:15:15 <oklopol> bonus points if you know less used diminutive suffices
01:15:16 <tswett_56> I found that most of them describe places and end in either la or nen.
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01:17:33 <mad> subject/object/transitivity/copula/benefactive gives around ~70 combinations
01:18:17 <mad> If I separate animate/inanimate gender more then the combinations go up a bit
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01:18:31 <mad> And if I include locative then the combinations double
01:19:03 <tswett_56> "Kuvalla on koiran syömisestä huonoja kokemuksia". And "syöminen" is eating, so... I guess that's then declined.
01:20:23 <tswett_56> At the picture is of a dog from eating . . .
01:20:29 <Lymia> What language is that?
01:20:36 <tswett_56> Finns sure do milk these declensions for all they're worth, don't they. :P
01:20:47 <mad> lymia: finnlandificatish
01:20:56 <elliott> finnlandificatish. the best language
01:21:12 <mad> the language of fennecs?
01:21:41 <oerjan> mad: stop reading my mind
01:21:48 <tswett_56> And it looks like "huonoja" is the partitive plural, and so is "kokemus", so you've got "bad experience" in the partitive plural.
01:22:08 <mad> everyone likes foxes
01:22:20 <tswett_56> And I guess the partitive is what makes it "has had" or whatever instead of "is having" or "had at some point" or something.
01:22:46 <tswett_56> How am I supposed to understand that. :|
01:23:03 <oklopol> "<tswett_56> In the... elative?" yes
01:23:32 <Lymia> This sounds more complicated than Japanese!
01:23:53 <mad> lymia: at least they tell you who is doing what
01:24:04 <mad> japanese is like
01:24:37 <mad> [where] [when] [verb] [how the talker feels about it] [degree of politeness]
01:24:57 <mad> notice the absence of subject or object
01:25:51 <mad> lymia: Case languages are crazy anyways
01:26:29 <Lymia> Look at that giant word.
01:26:42 <tswett_56> The Finnish for "okay, on to more difficult stuff" is "vaikealle", right?
01:26:53 <tswett_56> Lymia: don't worry, "hauamaisapostuandastandat" isn't a real word.
01:27:06 <oklopol> tswett_56: no, you can't really say that
01:27:15 <oklopol> Lymia: hauamaisapostuandastandat is english
01:27:16 <oerjan> høyesterettsjustitiarius
01:27:32 <tswett_56> "Yhdeksänkymmentäkahdeksan" is a real Finnish word, though.
01:27:46 <tswett_56> "Yhdeksänkymmentäkahdeksan" is the Finnish for what, in Lojban, is "li sobi".
01:28:03 <oklopol> yhdeksllekymmenellekahdeksallekohan
01:28:09 <tswett_56> And that Lojban is being slightly verbose. The base form is just "sobi"; "li" turns it into a DP.
01:28:23 <mad> what's the english translation
01:28:56 <tswett_56> oklopol: what does that mean? "I wonder if I should run around a bit"?
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01:29:20 <mad> quatre-vingt-dix-huit
01:29:29 <oklopol> tswett_56: it's the "-lle" plus "-kohan" of 98
01:30:04 * Lymia thinks she will stick with learning Japanese....
01:30:16 <mad> japanese is hard too
01:31:13 <mad> japanese is like the hard part of chinese (kanji) + the hard part of turkic/mongolian (agglutinative, everything is in reverse order)
01:31:19 <tswett_56> Oh, right, you use the partitive when yelling out adjectives.
01:31:39 <oklopol> verbs don't have partitives
01:31:52 <tswett_56> But vaikea is an adjective, isn't it?
01:31:59 <oklopol> oh sorry yeah aosidjfoierg
01:32:14 <oklopol> we use the partitive when yelling out adjectives
01:32:43 <mad> is there any esoteric system that would be good for making music with?
01:32:47 <tswett_56> Erinomaista. That declension sure makes sense.
01:32:51 <mad> generating audio
01:33:28 <oerjan> mad: Gregor was making something... don't know how esoteric it was
01:34:28 <mad> oerjan: hmm
01:34:46 <Gregor> I have made nothing /esoteric/ in that area.
01:34:58 <mad> oerjan: I might just design an esoteric sound chip and write a VST emulating it
01:35:02 <mad> or something like that
01:35:22 <oerjan> the music esolangs i know about go _from_ music to program
01:35:55 <oklopol> koirin means by using dogs
01:36:06 <oklopol> mostly used for transportation
01:36:18 <oklopol> well yeah but there's a perfectly good koirineni
01:37:21 <mad> oerjan: right now in the music world, there's a problem of synths being too similar to each other
01:37:28 <mad> way too many subtractive synths
01:37:29 <oklopol> well, more like possessing my dogs
01:37:32 <mad> (filter based)
01:37:39 <oklopol> tswett_56: yes, koir -ine -ni
01:38:44 <mad> oerjan: they could really use some more original synths
01:39:00 <mad> so there's definitely something to do on that angle
01:41:18 <mad> but trying to design a soundchip is hard :D
01:41:45 <tswett_56> Kuva... limsa. Koira kivi turri, turrin auto.
01:42:38 <tswett_56> Minä en ole koira. Minä olen turri. elliott ei ole kivi. elliott on auto.
01:42:53 <oklopol> limsan kuva on koiralle liian vaikea
01:44:52 <tswett_56> The soda-pop's picture is onto the dog too difficult... I have no idea what that deciphers to.
01:45:27 <oerjan> it doesn't decipher, finns really speak mostly in meaningless sentences
01:45:43 <mad> with lots of umlauts :D
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01:45:57 <tswett_56> Limsat kuvaan ei ole minä kuskasati.
01:46:25 <mad> äännäännen minä oonnoonnen
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01:57:46 <Gregor> With wcc (16-bit) in the huge memory model, sizeof(size_t) != sizeof(void *).
01:58:43 <oerjan> the com that makes you wat
01:59:05 <oklopol> the wat that makes you com
02:02:26 <elliott> Gregor: that's perfectly admissable isn't it
02:02:32 <elliott> i mean sixteen bit is fucked up
02:02:52 <Gregor> elliott: That's KINDA true, but I mean, come on sizeof(size_t) != sizeof(void *) >_<
02:03:00 <Gregor> The whole point of size_t is it's the size of a pointer :P
02:03:11 <Gregor> Well yeah, it's "word size"
02:03:20 <elliott> It can hold the size of any object. That's all.
02:04:15 <Gregor> I hate C. I hate it with love.
02:04:16 <elliott> Says the guy who doesn't know the difference tween (void) and () ;DDD
02:04:28 <elliott> BUT YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO OUT-PEDANT ME
02:04:39 <Gregor> I wonder if I could modify wcc to pretend like it's a 32-bit platform :P
02:04:52 <elliott> And so Gregor enters the land of Reasonable and Sane Ideas.
02:05:05 <Gregor> Make ints and size_ts 32 bits, just never admit that there's a segment register goin' on here :P
02:05:33 <Gregor> I'm wondering after semi-accidentally realizing that GGGGC actually works on 16-bit.
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02:07:25 <elliott> Gregor: Does GMP even compile with sixteen-bit OpenWatcom.
02:07:28 <elliott> I can't even comprehend that.
02:07:35 <Gregor> elliott: I didn't try :P
02:07:41 <elliott> ais523: Gregor's Gregarious General Gorging Garbage Crap.
02:08:13 <Gregor> elliott: Gregarious will now be my new adjective when I advance to GGGGGC.
02:08:19 <elliott> Gregor: Please never advance thuswise.
02:08:33 <Gregor> elliott: Y'know that's how I got to GGGGC, right? :P
02:08:36 <elliott> Gregor: Can you compact it to just GGC next time? :P
02:08:59 <elliott> Gregor: I liked the API a lot more when I thought GGC_ was stuff left over from the original GGC.
02:09:05 <elliott> Like, you kept source-compatibility each time in that manner.
02:09:20 <Gregor> I didn't even keep source compatibility a little bit :P
02:09:31 <Gregor> The number of G's just indicates the publicness of the function X-D
02:09:41 <elliott> That's even worse, to be honest :P
02:09:50 <oerjan> the last G will stand for Global, i take
02:10:15 <Gregor> oerjan: None of the G's stand for either of those :P
02:10:26 <oerjan> Gregor: i mean the last one you eventually add
02:10:41 <elliott> this is so super-linear it isn't even funny
02:11:01 <Gregor> Actually GGGGC is shaping out to be the lastish, at least for the time being.
02:11:12 <elliott> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
02:11:13 <Gregor> GGC was a miserable failure, GGGC was tolerable but not fast.
02:11:29 <elliott> Gregor: You just need to make it concurrent; GGGGCC.
02:11:49 <elliott> Gregor: Eventually you'll compact all the acronyms down after getting tired of this shit, and it will become Gregor's Concurrent Collector.
02:11:54 <elliott> Commonly known in programming circles as GCC.
02:12:10 <elliott> In fact, GCC will replace its GC dependency with the GCC GC.
02:12:30 <elliott> So the GCC GC will be GCC's GC.
02:12:40 <elliott> People will refer to "The GCC GC, GCC's GC".
02:12:41 <Gregor> The hotspot GC is faster than GGGGC, but it's also not ~600 lines :P
02:13:00 <elliott> Hotspot's GC just uses magic and unicorns.
02:13:10 <elliott> And that might even matter if the rest of Java wasn't a steaming shitpile.
02:13:11 <Gregor> Hotspot's GC is fucking terrifying >_>
02:13:32 <elliott> It's, like, the worst environment ever... with a GC from twenty years in the future.
02:13:59 <elliott> coppro: you _know_ the punishment for that.
02:14:55 <elliott> hmm, i should port my little recursive descent routines from zepto.py
02:14:58 <elliott> yes, i'm still writing zepto.c
02:15:03 <Gregor> elliott: lol, gmp on 16-bit is seriously the best worst idea ever X-D
02:15:18 <oerjan> elliott: um still no connection
02:15:34 <elliott> Gregor: Considering that gcc miscompiles gmp at the best of times, I very much doubt OpenWatcom will ever get it right ever :P
02:15:42 <elliott> Although to be fair, gcc is a legendary piece of shit.
02:15:51 <Gregor> elliott: It worked fine 32-bit.
02:15:56 <Gregor> elliott: Remember I got Fythe for DOS.
02:16:02 <elliott> I know, I'm trying not to think about that.
02:16:11 <elliott> I want sixteen-bit Fythe :P
02:16:17 <Gregor> elliott: To make GMP not use its assembly routines (which was necessary for wcc386), you have to tell it --host=none-whatever. Pretty lols command line.
02:16:33 <elliott> Please tell me the whatever is really necessary.
02:16:42 <Gregor> Either pc-linux-gnu or pc-msdos or, y'know, whatever.
02:16:48 <elliott> Gregor: You should try an eight-bit compiler.
02:17:09 <elliott> Reading Plof system files from tape...
02:17:24 <elliott> Whoops look at that, the number three used up all your memory
02:22:18 <elliott> Gregor: btw interior pointers are the besssssssst
02:22:33 <Gregor> elliott: Just say "no" to interior pointers :P
02:22:41 <elliott> Gregor: But they''re intoxicating.
02:22:54 <elliott> NIL = TAG(conssa(intern(strdup("NIL")), cons(NIL, NIL)), T_PAIR|T_SYMBOL);
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02:23:01 <elliott> Observe: Interior pointers, holding this stack of cards together.
02:23:36 <elliott> "conssa" meaning "cons, but allocate the pair so that [and]pair->cdr is aligned with 0s, not necessarily the car; and return the pointer to the cdr".
02:23:45 <elliott> This is used for NIL'S SUPREME OVERLAPPINGNESS :D
02:25:08 <Gregor> elliott: So, how miserably slow is your GC? :P
02:25:30 <elliott> while (TAGOF(poolptr)) poolptr++;
02:25:38 <elliott> while (TAGOF(poolptr+1)) poolptr++;
02:25:46 <Gregor> elliott: That is an allocator. How fast is your GC?
02:25:48 <elliott> Gregor: It's so fast. Conservative, mind you.
02:25:52 <elliott> That loop never even RUNS on sixty-four bit architectuers.
02:25:56 <elliott> Gregor: That _is_ my GC [eight]D
02:26:09 <elliott> Gregor: But my GC /will/ be the Zepto Bargain Basement Copying Collector.
02:26:14 * Sgeo_346126 suddenly isn't sure that just going inside a function and lexifying all the dynamic variables is possible
02:26:19 <elliott> Gregor: As soon as I figure out how that does not involve rewriting pointers in running code.
02:26:35 <Sgeo_346126> How would one distinguish a lambda from a list? oh, duh, r5rs requires the keyword
02:26:35 <Gregor> What's wrong with that? >: )
02:26:40 <elliott> Gregor: I get the feeling that C code requires Infrastructure to use a copying GC.
02:26:46 <elliott> Unless it's possible to do it without such rewriting? :P
02:27:08 <Gregor> elliott: Hence all the GGC_PUSH nonsense.
02:27:31 <elliott> Gregor: It would be better if I just used details of the architecture to rewrite it without any infrastructure [eight]D
02:27:45 <Gregor> [eight]D is perhaps the worst smiley ever.
02:30:00 <Gregor> elliott: I have actually considered whether I could make a superwtf series of macros for types on the stack. Conclusion: No.
02:30:36 <Gregor> elliott: For GGGGC to not need GGC_PUSH
02:30:55 <Gregor> ... "Huh?" isn't much of a joke :P
02:31:06 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: It would be better if I just used details of the architecture to rewrite it without any infrastructure [eight]D
02:31:17 <Gregor> Yeah, I got that that was a joke :P
02:31:59 <elliott> basically i do the standard copying collector shit, right, except i make sure to preserve the order of objects
02:31:59 <pikhq> Well, have you considered using handles, as per classic Mac OS?
02:32:02 <elliott> and just leave gigantic holes in thingy
02:32:11 <elliott> i realloc the original space
02:32:17 <elliott> and then keep using a linear collector
02:33:05 <monqy> it's somewhere in there
02:33:07 <pikhq> elliott: And now your allocator is nontrivial.
02:33:12 <elliott> pikhq: nope still linear as usual
02:33:29 <Gregor> elliott: One strategy that apparently works for reasons I don't understand (haven't investigated) is making sure your old pointers are strictly invalid, then catching page faults and rewriting the access that way. The reason I don't understand if this works is as far as I know you can never know that a whole region is unreferenced, so essentially you just take up all your VIRTUAL memory without taking REAL memory.
02:33:32 <elliott> the joke is that collector is one gigantic nop
02:33:32 <pikhq> Either you keep track of free space or you love heap corruption.
02:33:41 <elliott> you are all too stupid to get this
02:33:46 <elliott> which is kinda pathetic :DDDD
02:33:53 <monqy> I was afraid it was actually doing something
02:34:02 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I was the one who linked you to the article on that :P
02:34:05 <elliott> By article I mean blog post.
02:34:11 <Gregor> elliott: Memory: I don't have it.
02:34:11 <elliott> BUT THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP BRO
02:34:20 <monqy> nop as a garbage collector would be pretty fast
02:34:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, on 64-bit architectures you have exabytes of virtual memory.
02:34:28 <elliott> monqy: it's what i currently have
02:34:47 <Gregor> pikhq: Even the rewriting page maps would be enormous :)
02:35:08 <pikhq> Gregor: And you could use gigabyte pages. :P
02:36:26 <pikhq> (yes, x86_64 supports gigabyte pages)
02:39:58 <mad> I'll page your mom
02:42:02 <elliott> ais523: being online so i could tab-complete your name to paste into this email
02:43:30 <monqy> is your 523 key missing
02:53:42 <monqy> are segfaults zepto
02:54:01 <monqy> I should take notes
02:54:18 <pikhq> I take it that you don't check for NULL from malloc, for being insufficiently zepto?
02:54:28 <elliott> pikhq: i don't use malloc.
02:54:30 <pikhq> (of course, on a standard Linux system malloc cannot return NULL)
02:55:32 <pikhq> For reasons only comprehensible to a select, crazy few, Linux prefers to kill processes in an OOM situation.
02:56:38 <pikhq> *Though* it's not like that changes too much in practice, due to the common handling of OOM being "if(!(foo=malloc(bar)))exit(1);"...
02:57:55 <monqy> if(!(foo=malloc(bar))){fprintf(stderr, "oh no\n");exit(1);}
02:58:50 <pikhq> And OOM killer kills will at least be in the kernel log.
02:59:17 <elliott> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
02:59:17 <elliott> 0x0000000000400c6a in intern (s=0x613060 "x") at zepto.c:102
02:59:17 <elliott> 102 if (!strcmp((char *) DEREF(record).car, s)) {
02:59:19 <elliott> i bet i broke something lol
02:59:33 <Sgeo_346126> elliott, difference between zepto and pico?
02:59:40 <elliott> Sgeo_346126: zepto has all the bitches.
03:00:03 <Sgeo_346126> If it weren't for newLISP, zepto might not exist.
03:00:11 <coppro> pikhq: why does your currency become weak only when I'm going to work in the USA?
03:00:13 <pikhq> Zepto is also un-otpez.
03:00:20 <elliott> what does newlisp have to do with this
03:00:29 <pikhq> coppro: Because WE HATE DIRTY EUROPEANS
03:00:31 <elliott> coppro: because working is for chumps, hth
03:00:45 <Sgeo_346126> I think I mentioned newlisp, causing elliott to redirect me to picolisp, causing him to regain interest in picolisp, causing zepto
03:00:52 <coppro> pikhq: I'm not European
03:00:53 <elliott> i didn't regain interst i just
03:00:59 <coppro> Your government trusts me
03:01:03 <coppro> I have a piece of paper that says so
03:01:05 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, that's even worse.
03:01:16 <elliott> coppro: why the fuck would they trust you, you suck ass
03:01:18 <pikhq> coppro: We hate ALL THAT IS UP NORTH
03:01:28 <pikhq> coppro: The only thing we hate more is our own economy!
03:01:38 <pikhq> monqy: AND ALL THAT IS UP SOUTH
03:01:42 <pikhq> monqy: AND EAST AND WEST
03:02:08 <monqy> good luck have fun
03:02:15 <pikhq> The only things we like are bad foreign policy, bad domestic policy, and bad food!
03:02:40 <pikhq> Oh, yes, and artificial food-like substances.
03:02:46 <pikhq> Indeed, that's probably our favorite thing.
03:02:49 <coppro> elliott: I have a piece of paper saying that they trust me to enter their country without bringing anything illegal in
03:02:51 * oerjan slips ice 9 into Sgeo_346126's antiwater
03:03:04 <elliott> coppro: well ass isn't illegal.
03:03:15 <elliott> sucking it might be though
03:04:42 <pikhq> elliott: Sodomy laws got struck down by the Supreme Court a few years back.
03:04:57 <pikhq> Essentially any sexual action between consenting individuals is legal.
03:05:01 <pikhq> Including sucking ass.
03:06:04 <pikhq> (note: exception. If you are in the US military, it must be between consenting individuals *of opposite gender*. The DADT repeal has yet to go into effect.)
03:06:04 <oerjan> lolling is however strictly forbidden
03:06:46 <mad> pikhq: between consenting adult individuals
03:06:55 <copumpkin> pikhq: can I still do all sorts of horrifying immoral acts to a consenting person of the opposite gender?
03:07:14 <pikhq> mad: "Consent" implies that the individuals involved are capable of giving consent.
03:07:32 <coppro> heheheh... Canadian criminal code is so outdated
03:07:38 <pikhq> mad: Children are not capable of such, according to the law.
03:08:21 <pikhq> copumpkin: Yes, you can have uberkinky slave bondage torture sex to your heart's content.
03:08:45 <copumpkin> I've coined a new term that combines santorum with blood and saliva
03:08:56 <copumpkin> but I won't tell you the name as you might reth
03:09:11 <Gregor> Presumably you coined this term out of necessity?
03:09:32 <coppro> pikhq: In Canada, according to the laws on the books, you can do anything you'd like except a) bestiality b) anal sex if there's anyone else around (including a third participant)
03:09:37 <coppro> I'm not kidding about b)
03:10:01 <copumpkin> damn, that excludes my second favorite bro-fantastic activity
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03:10:29 <elliott> (one of the bros is a dog)
03:10:32 <Gregor> If you're still saying "chain" and not "circle", you're not thinking far enough.
03:10:44 <elliott> chain? lol, i primarily work in spheres
03:10:45 <elliott> and not hollow ones either
03:10:56 <pikhq> Gregor: You need many a person to have a circle of anal sex.
03:11:06 <elliott> one gigantic mass of buttfuck
03:11:17 <elliott> a nation-state unto itself
03:12:00 <coppro> pikhq: Oh, right, also, if either pariticpant is anal sex is under 18, it's only permitted between husband and wife (and not husband and husband). That one is pretty obviously stretched to include same-sex marriages though.
03:12:29 <pikhq> coppro: ... Why have a seperate age of consent for anal sex and any-other sex?
03:12:41 <elliott> oerjan: http://howhumanareyou.com/
03:12:46 <elliott> i suspect oerjan of being a robot
03:13:16 <coppro> pikhq: Because our criminal code is criminally outdated
03:13:31 <pikhq> coppro: Ours is, no doubt, worse.
03:13:40 <pikhq> But the UK's takes the cake, I'm sure.
03:13:43 <coppro> and this section is probably unenforceable
03:13:53 <coppro> along with our gambling and prostitution laws
03:13:53 <copumpkin> anyone not seen that comic and want to?
03:13:59 <augur> this test has many false dichotomies, elliott
03:13:59 <copumpkin> I feel like I shouldn't post NSFW links in here
03:14:17 <Gregor> http://lollotsoporn.com/
03:14:33 <Gregor> DISAPPOINTED BY NONEXISTENCE
03:14:35 <pikhq> copumpkin: Feel free to post NSFW links.
03:14:42 <pikhq> copumpkin: Just specify "NSFW".
03:14:46 <pikhq> We're mostly adults here.
03:14:48 <copumpkin> [NSFW]http://wecravegames.com/forums/imagehosting/174beda9351600c.png%20and%20http://wecravegames.com/forums/imagehosting/174beda8e29cf33.png[/NSFW]
03:15:09 * Sgeo_346126 slaps copumpkin for what copumpkin just realized he did
03:15:13 <pikhq> And minors know whether or not they give a fuck about the law. :P
03:15:15 <Gregor> copumpkin: For that you are now banned from posting any links P
03:15:27 <coppro> pikhq: In a surprisingly odd twist, our incest laws are very lenient
03:15:39 <coppro> two generations up or down only
03:15:56 <Sgeo_346126> copumpkin, not linking to the original source?
03:16:04 <Gregor> coppro: So just to be clear from your previous statement, making anal porn is strictly illegal, yes?
03:16:15 <elliott> Sgeo_346126 VALUES ORIGINAL SOURCES IN HIS PORN
03:16:26 <pikhq> coppro: In the US, it depends on the state.
03:16:36 <coppro> Gregor: Now, having it, on the other hand
03:16:47 <coppro> yeah, self-filmed might be ok
03:16:59 <elliott> today i learned a new definition of the word cute
03:17:07 <coppro> and then explicitly says it's not in private if there's anyone else around
03:17:23 <pikhq> coppro: It is possible to be married and it be illegal to have sex in the US, quite trivially.
03:17:47 <pikhq> For instance: marry a first cousin in a state where it's legal (most of them) and move to one where it's illegal.
03:17:56 <augur> copumpkin: you're a total homo, dont even pretend
03:18:08 <copumpkin> augur: nah, I said "no homo" every time
03:18:12 <elliott> its' broken i wonder whyi s roken
03:18:18 <pikhq> Or get married to just about any relative in New Jersey; incest laws only apply to <18 there.
03:18:19 <augur> SO YOU ADMIT YOU'RE NOT HOMO SAPIENS?!
03:19:03 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, really.
03:19:16 <coppro> pikhq: oh, also, our incest laws, in a sudden outbreak of common sense, are defined only by blood relationships
03:19:51 <pikhq> Apparently Japan has no incest laws at all.
03:19:53 <augur> that comic is pretty true
03:19:59 <pikhq> They were repealed in 1881.
03:20:26 <pikhq> Marriage between parent-child or siblings is illegal. No further restrictions.
03:20:32 <coppro> The fact that they are laws based on blood relationships indicates that they aren't trying to solve the wrong problem
03:21:37 <elliott> outlawing inbreeding seems a bit silly, there's plenty of other ways to get tarded kids
03:21:49 <elliott> AND I AM NOW GOING TO DEMONSTRATE THEM ALL
03:21:57 <augur> copumpkin: anyone familiar with statistical parsers knows well enough that they can handle 's :|
03:22:14 <coppro> In most normal scenarios, the body has built-in protections to avoid inbreeding anyhow
03:22:17 <copumpkin> yeah but statistical parsers are kinda gay
03:22:18 <pikhq> elliott: And you can get inbreeding whilst following incest laws if you try.
03:22:22 <augur> copumpkin: no homo
03:22:34 <elliott> coppro: unless you've never seen your sibling ever
03:22:44 <elliott> in which case WHOOO BOY DOWNS SYNDROME AHOY
03:22:59 <elliott> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction)
03:23:01 <coppro> elliott: That's really not a problem since a single incidence is not likely to cause terribad effects anyhow
03:23:18 <elliott> coppro: I never said it was a problem, incest is a pretty outdated taboo
03:23:35 <elliott> But one that isn't relevant most of the time 'cuz of biololology.
03:23:50 <pikhq> elliott: Not to mention a fairly flexible one, anyways.
03:24:16 <coppro> I'd just as soon see it removed from criminal law myself
03:24:23 <elliott> "With not long to go until the AV referendum, the waters are muddier than ever. It's confusing. One minute the anti-camp claims a vote for AV would benefit the BNP. Then the pro-camp counters by pointing out the BNP are against AV. Therefore no matter what the outcome, Nick Griffin will both win and lose simultaneously. He'll exist in an uncertain quantum state. Like Schrödinger's cat. I say "cat". I
03:24:23 <elliott> originally used another word starting with c and ending with t, but the Guardian asked me to change it. Suffice to say, Griffin is a massive cat."
03:24:24 <pikhq> Quick, go around asking if sex with a first cousin is taboo.
03:24:31 <pikhq> coppro: Well, yes.
03:24:47 <pikhq> coppro: Any victimless "crime" absolutely must go!
03:25:16 <elliott> pikhq: now you get the satisfaction of reading it again in Charlie Brooker's voice
03:26:02 <pikhq> elliott: Who's Charlie Brooker?
03:26:10 <coppro> pikhq: Depending on your definition of "victimless"
03:26:25 <elliott> pikhq: he's just this guy who's the best guy ever
03:27:07 <elliott> dear diary. US does not even know who charlie brooker is. suspect crippling mass depression. must send aid packages.
03:27:15 <coppro> pikhq: While prostitution generally should be allowed, I think, do we allow under-18s to sell themselves to people of similar age?
03:27:16 <pikhq> coppro: One which does not cause notable harm to anyone who is not a willing participant in good mental health.
03:27:29 <elliott> "There was a TV ad depicting a Grand National style event in which, thanks to AV, the horse in third place magically finished first. This was unrealistic on two counts: partly because the example they used was impossible, but mainly because all the horses survived."
03:28:06 <pikhq> coppro: Unfortunately, the edge cases here are a bitch.
03:28:07 <Gregor> elliott: What are you quoting :P
03:28:11 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/25/av-campaign-created-stupidity-whirlpool
03:28:14 <elliott> Gregor: Charlie Brooker, your new God.
03:28:15 <coppro> although I would say that if, hypothetically, underage prostitution were a real offense, then it should be more administrative than criminal
03:28:23 <elliott> (I have resolved that no American knows who Charlie Brooker is at all.)
03:28:27 <elliott> (Not even facts will sway me from this position.)
03:28:38 <coppro> although I'm a fan of the "prisons are a last resort" philosophy to crime anyway
03:28:55 <pikhq> coppro: And I presume said prisons should be Norwegian?
03:29:28 <pikhq> (i.e. actually humane and genuinely beneficial to society, rather than producing career criminals)
03:30:24 <oerjan> it's not like the norwegian prisons never produce career criminals
03:30:38 <coppro> oerjan: produce != contain
03:30:50 <pikhq> oerjan: No, but they aren't bloody well *designed to fucking do it*.
03:30:52 <coppro> The US criminal law system basically makes it so that if you get in, getting out is hard
03:31:02 <coppro> and once you're out, you have nowhere to go but more crime
03:31:20 <coppro> pikhq: Humane, yes. Beneficial... depends on the criminal. White-collar crime is probably best punished by massive fine and a short "time out" sentence; but for serious cases, you need to assume you're not going to get anything useful out of them
03:31:52 <elliott> we should lock people in small metal boxes
03:32:15 <oerjan> but it _did_ notice a story in a norwegian paper the other day about this guy who got actual help to get a job while in prison
03:32:23 <coppro> Alternatively, people who have driven crime (gang lords) should also probably be disconnected from society for a long while
03:32:53 <coppro> elliott: with GLaD0S in charge?
03:33:05 <pikhq> oerjan: Your prisons are pretty much designed for rehabilitation.
03:34:08 <coppro> oddly enough, prisons are one area where the media overblowing something is a good thing
03:34:58 <coppro> since the media tends to make them sound a lot scarier than they are, and that keeps people afraid of them, and that keeps them following the law
03:35:09 <coppro> (or trying harder not to get caught, I suppose. But probably more of the former on balance)
03:36:22 <elliott> does fear of the horrible reality of prisons actually stop people committing crime in large numbers
03:38:23 <pikhq> elliott: No, the horrible reality of prisons, at least in the US, are directly responsible for people committing crime in large numbers.
03:40:44 <pikhq> Recidivism is 67%. Any further questions?
03:41:54 <elliott> really i'd prefer a response from coppro.
03:46:31 <coppro> elliott: It has some effect; I have no clue how much
03:46:43 <elliott> $1 = (obj) 0x894855c3c9002012
03:47:05 <elliott> coppro: ok, so you're basically saying that the media overblowing the horrors of prison is good based on nothing? just checking
03:47:23 <coppro> elliott: I do not have hard studies for you, no
03:47:44 <coppro> elliott: It is a conclusion I have arrived at with logic
03:47:53 <coppro> I have concluded there must be some effect
03:48:00 <coppro> I do not know enough to conclude the volume
03:48:05 <elliott> and what on earth compels you to think it's not a horrifically bad effect
03:48:16 <elliott> and, say i were to ask for this logic, would i be intensely surprised to learn that you haven't actually written it down
03:48:22 <elliott> i'm not into trusting random intuition frankly
03:49:14 <coppro> logic is saying "I know X and Y, therefore Z."
03:49:16 <elliott> not logic you haven't/won't/can't disclosed
03:49:33 <coppro> I can disclose the logic, but it is still based on my own observations
03:50:06 <coppro> the logic is that people are deterred from something by the threat of pain
03:50:13 <pikhq> Then do so before I call you on proof surrogate. :P
03:50:56 <coppro> elliott: Yes. I refuse to prove this statement as this is a very, very well-accepted psychological fact
03:51:02 <elliott> i mean, if you compare the american justice system and SNOOTY RICH EUROPEAN JUSTICE, it sure doesn't seem like making prisons shitty helps much.
03:51:09 <elliott> coppro: oh -- it's intuitive
03:51:19 <coppro> elliott: No, it's not that it's intuitive
03:51:26 <coppro> it's that there are many studies backing this up
03:51:33 <coppro> you can conduct one in the comfort of your own home
03:52:49 <pikhq> elliott: I'll cite so he doesn't have to. Pavlov.
03:53:00 <elliott> pikhq: i don't deny that specific fact is true.
03:53:09 <elliott> coppro was obviously generalising it to something less direct
03:53:14 <elliott> but why am i responding, i have already said i am done
03:53:28 <coppro> pikhq: Nonono, he did that on dogs. It's clearly not valid on humans.
03:53:55 <elliott> woo, now we've moved on to trolling
03:54:08 <elliott> this is the very tops of this channel
03:54:27 <mad> crime rate is correlated to gini index
03:54:37 <pikhq> elliott: Hey, "because you lie" is a very good response for "why am I responding, I have already said I am done".
03:54:47 <elliott> pikhq: i was not referring to you. i was referring to coppro.
03:55:12 <pikhq> coppro is hereby invited to defend his own actions.
03:58:00 <coppro> my actions were correct
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04:04:08 <Gregor> What's the 286's maximum amount of addressable memory? Anybody know?
04:05:12 -!- elliott has joined.
04:05:29 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers
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04:07:36 <elliott> Gregor: "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it."
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04:07:54 <pikhq> Gregor: 16 MiB; it had a 24-bit address bus.
04:07:59 <elliott> suddenly, ais523 facepalms
04:08:05 <ais523> they should at least use the "This list is incomplete, and may never satisfy certain standards for completion" template
04:08:07 <elliott> 0Zeroaught, cipher, cypher, goose egg, love, nada, naught, nil, none, nought, nowt, null, ought, oh, squat, zed, zilch, zip
04:10:09 <pikhq> Which is also the maximum possible address space in 16-bit protected mode.
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04:11:21 <elliott> Gregor: Is Fythe running on an Apple II yet
04:14:16 <Gregor> elliott: That port was E-Z.
04:14:24 <elliott> Gregor: Is the Apple II sentient
04:14:37 <Gregor> elliott: Aren't they all.
04:15:35 <mad> 286 pm? that's so obscure :D
04:17:23 <Sgeo_346126> Without that list, how am I to learn to count?
04:17:58 <elliott> Strongly carefree constant: 0.286747...
04:18:46 <lifthrasiir> Gregor, did your TC interpreter get any smaller?
04:18:47 <oerjan> yeah no one cares about that one
04:19:16 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: Nope, 77 bytes. And I never claimed it was TC, just that its semantics were TC if not for a limited word size :P
04:19:54 <Gregor> Well that's a pretty severe issue when your word size is 8 bits :)
04:20:28 <Gregor> I can actually save a byte and make it 32-bit, but then it's not endian-portable.
04:20:29 <Sgeo_346126> Any relation to fictitious concepts like space?
04:20:49 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Surround_notation&curid=3828&diff=22152&oldid=22147
04:20:57 <elliott> we do not need to be editing these articles
04:20:58 <elliott> we need to be forgetting they exist
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04:38:34 <elliott> omfgoimg why is it so slow
04:39:51 <pikhq> I continue to wonder: why is "coelacanth" a word I've seen more in Japanese than in English?
04:40:32 <elliott> because none of us can pronounce that
04:40:41 <oerjan> well that's just because japanese is a bit fishy
04:40:41 <pikhq> (シーラカンス [shiirakansu] in Japanese)
04:40:53 <coppro> pikhq: They appear to be common in video games?
04:41:05 <pikhq> coppro: Actually, song lyrics.
04:41:29 <pikhq> They're absurdly common in song lyrics in Japanese rock music. I have no idea why.
04:41:43 <pikhq> Okay, well, absurdly common *in comparison to what you'd expect*.
04:42:01 <coppro> maybe it just sounds good?
04:42:07 <coppro> maybe it's a common metaphor for something?
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04:42:58 <pikhq> I can only guess it's being used as a metaphor.
04:43:35 <pikhq> It certainly doesn't *seem* particularly euphonious. But, then, my ideas of euphony vs. cacaphony in Japanese are fairly off, so cannot be used as a reliable judge of anything.
04:44:15 <pikhq> Well, I can comment that it's a tiny bit *long* for Japanese. A whole 6 morae.
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04:44:59 <elliott> pikhq: maybe it's used to fill out syllables to make lines fit >:D
04:45:16 <oerjan> it doesn't happen to have a meaning other than coelacanth?
04:45:33 <pikhq> oerjan: I looked it up in bilingual and monolingual dictionaries.
04:46:32 <elliott> pikhq can i have more badnwidth
04:46:39 <pikhq> oerjan: The bilingual ones say "coelacanth". Monolingual ones describe it as a genera of fish that was once thought to have been extinct, and note that it's from English "coelacanth".
04:46:58 <pikhq> Erm, s/genera/genus/
04:47:13 <elliott> more like genera-lly extinct
04:47:19 <elliott> sometimes i think im just too genius?
04:47:32 <elliott> then i kinda snap out of it and go naw.
04:47:38 <pikhq> oerjan: So, yeah. It is *definitely* referring to the fish.
04:47:50 <oerjan> oh it's actually a loan word...
04:48:27 <pikhq> Actually, most words for animals are loaned from one language or another in Japanese...
04:49:08 <pikhq> Only a small handful of native ones. For, like, "dog", "cat", "cow", "horse"...
04:49:14 <coppro> pikhq: haha your country is hilarious http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/state-dept-wants-to-make-it-harder-to-get-a-passport/
04:50:27 <oerjan> hey they need to prepare for when it gets so bad they need to keep people in...
04:50:33 <pikhq> coppro: Oh jesus fuck. I don't think I could actually fill out that questionnaire.
04:51:00 <pikhq> I have moved something like 10 times already.
04:51:40 <pikhq> Though if that doesn't apply to renewals, then fuck yeah.
04:52:16 * pikhq has already had 2 passports
04:52:25 <coppro> pikhq: The best part is the estimated 45 minutes to fill it out
04:52:39 <pikhq> coppro: Lies and deceit right there.
04:53:03 <pikhq> I think that the Japanese naturalisation process is less involved.
04:53:15 <pikhq> And they have a reputation of discouraging any and all immigration...
04:55:17 <pikhq> *They ask for a list of appointments your mother had for pre or post-natal care*.
04:56:01 <coppro> yeah, that's utterly ridiculous
04:56:03 <pikhq> As well as a *list of people present at your birth*.
04:56:38 <pikhq> What if I don't know who my parents are?
04:57:36 <pikhq> They also seem to give a fairly conservative amount of space for the list of employers and the list of residences...
04:58:15 <pikhq> I'd be almost out of space on the form. Already.
04:59:04 <pikhq> ... I think I'm well over on schools.
05:00:31 <coppro> fortunately, I don't have to get a US passport
05:00:56 <pikhq> This form was undoubtedly designed by someone who has had a stultifyingly simple life.
05:01:29 <coppro> your typical lawyer won't be able to fill that form out entirely
05:02:38 <pikhq> Indeed, you would need more knowledge about your own life than most people would even imagine knowing.
05:03:44 <coppro> actually, a person with 100% perfect recall would quite likely be unable to complete that form
05:04:19 <coppro> How the hell does someone, even with perfect recall, know where their mother lived a year before their birth?
05:04:42 <pikhq> Unless you know your mother never moved, that is going to be damned fucking difficult.
05:05:24 <coppro> Especially if she's dead or won't tell you
05:05:58 <pikhq> Oh, and imagine an 85 year old applying for a new passport.
05:06:22 <coppro> the absolute best part of this
05:06:57 <pikhq> They already have the problem that they *probably don't have any documentation older than the social security card they got for their first job*...
05:07:00 <coppro> is that if this form gets approved, then people will be made less able to come to Canada, and they'll probably complain that Canada requires a passport for immigration
05:07:18 <coppro> and guess whose fault that is
05:10:45 <coppro> It's the fault of the USA's xenophobia
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05:29:17 * pikhq is somewhat amused by the lack of *chimpanzee* ancestors...
05:29:55 <pikhq> There's less evidence that chimpanzees evolved from monkeys than that humans did. :P
05:31:48 <Gregor> What are you babbling about :P
05:33:00 <pikhq> Gregor: Basically, the chimp fossil record kinda goes poof between the possible common ancestor of humans & chimps, and modern-day chimps.
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06:36:12 <pikhq> Sweet. We've got satellites in Earth's Lagrangian points.
06:36:26 <pikhq> Specifically, L1 and L2.
06:37:44 <pikhq> To specify further, the Lagrangian points in the Sun-Earth system.
06:48:30 <Lymia> coppro, do they actually think that people will be able to fill it out?
06:50:39 <coppro> pikhq: what about for earth-moon?
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06:59:25 <pikhq> coppro: No, but there have been many proposals for such.
07:00:10 <pikhq> coppro: The Sun-Earth L1 and L2 points are in use because they're very convenient for observation.
07:01:08 <pikhq> coppro: Earth-Moon L1 and L2 would be of most use with man actually on the Moon; communication satellites, waypoints for further travel, and the like.
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07:43:19 <pikhq> Placental mammals *also* form an egg-shell analog and a yolk.
07:45:47 <pikhq> In placentals, the yolk serves as part of the early circulatory system.
07:48:11 <pikhq> The egg shell analog is the amniotic sac. Serves no function; it's just a vestigial egg shell.
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11:41:20 <Ilari> Wow, cleaning package cache freed 22GB of disk space. :-)
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11:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/gwmp7/how_does_starting_a_girlfriendboyfriend/
11:51:43 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:54:00 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "...have 2 messages!?"?
11:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> You know what, I'm unsubscribing from AskReddit as well.
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13:19:09 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Wow, cleaning package cache freed 22GB of disk space. :-) <-- distro?
13:20:02 <Sgeo_346126> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like the sort of thing I'd need help with (just judging from the URL)
13:23:23 <Lymia> Who's the local python bot?
13:23:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_346126, yes, I was going to say "Oh god, it's full of Sgeos" but I decided it wasn't worth it.
13:23:49 <Lymia> Who's the local python exec bot?
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13:28:33 <Phantom_Hoover> `run python -c "print 'I forget the correct syntax'" 2>&1
13:28:35 <HackEgo> I forget the correct syntax
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14:17:17 <oerjan> today's iwc is definitely confusing...
14:19:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is it that Alvissa has understood
14:22:14 <oerjan> the ruby is supposedly in the citadel, which ardaxar came out of. how can it not already be in his possession. maybe he just found out where it is.
14:23:24 <oerjan> well that's certainly all the rage
14:24:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, or maybe it turns out the party is carrying it without knowing it?
14:24:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are now taking up collections for the "elliott needs a sense of fnarf" fund | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:24:42 <Vorpal> Kyros spehere is the wrong colour for it
14:24:56 <oerjan> but they're not lying within the citadel afaict...
14:25:35 <oklofok> oerjan: do you know how to get p -> !!p or !!p -> p from (p -> (q -> p)), (p -> (q -> r)) -> ((p -> q) -> (p -> r)), (!p -> !q) -> (q -> p)?
14:25:54 <oklofok> i hope you are familiar with those or this might be a bit scary :D
14:26:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, is it just me or is the head of the dragon in http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/comic.php?current=3005&theme=2&dir=next see-through at the eyes?
14:26:25 <oklofok> i tried to do it but i just can't use axiom 3
14:26:50 <Vorpal> oklofok, have you tried google btw?
14:27:19 <oerjan> Vorpal: hm. only in the first panel though.
14:27:30 <oklofok> much more fun to tackle it myself or ask ppl
14:27:30 <Vorpal> oklofok, what is the fun in asking oerjan as opposed to figuring it out yourself
14:27:44 <oklofok> Vorpal: us humans like social interaction
14:27:58 <Vorpal> oklofok, oh, right. (damn, this pretense is hard)
14:29:56 <oerjan> Vorpal is secretely that alien guy from mezzacotta
14:30:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, which alien guy in mezzacotta?
14:31:12 <oklofok> oerjan: you didn't answer btw so i assume you're thinking real hard?
14:31:18 <oerjan> a bit hard to search for...
14:31:23 <oerjan> oklofok: i don't see how to do it
14:32:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, well point to the person in http://www.mezzacotta.net/cast/ ?
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14:34:23 <Fuco> so I'm using STRN fingerprint for befunge... P(0gnirts Va -- ) , what does Va mean? V is vector, which is just x/y pair, but what does that 'a' represent?
14:34:31 <Fuco> should I just push 10 there?
14:35:12 <Vorpal> Fuco, let me check what my implementation of STRN does
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14:35:59 <Fuco> looking at rcfunge sources, it only pops zyx and than while(a!=0) pop and write
14:36:06 <Vorpal> "P - Put string at specified position"
14:36:24 <Vorpal> Fuco, Va is a funge vector, used to decide where the string should be put. The delta from there is fixed
14:36:53 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/IHRU?c
14:36:55 <Fuco> is it somehow different from just 'V'
14:37:10 <Vorpal> "V - Retrieve value from string"?
14:37:21 <Vorpal> that is atoi() basically as far as I can tell
14:37:26 <Vorpal> at least that is what I do for it
14:37:41 <Fuco> P (0gnirts V -- )
14:37:44 <Fuco> if it was like this
14:37:52 <Fuco> because often the argument is denoted V, but sometimes Va
14:37:54 <Vorpal> looks like notation to me
14:38:15 <Vorpal> Fuco, these are rcfunge docs? They are sometimes not very clear on things
14:38:28 <Vorpal> anyway I would suggest ccbi or cfunge as better interpreters than rcfunge.
14:38:39 <Vorpal> though for trefunge I guess you would be stuck with rcfunge
14:38:41 <Fuco> are they opensource?
14:39:09 <Fuco> because I'm hacking the interpreter to add debuging info :D
14:39:17 <Vorpal> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html https://launchpad.net/cfunge
14:39:23 <Vorpal> Fuco, the former has a built in debugger
14:39:25 <Fuco> well, I just can't get P instruction to work...
14:39:26 <Vorpal> the latter has tracing
14:39:37 <Vorpal> (I'm the author of cfunge)
14:39:58 <Deewiant> Vorpal: CCBI supports trefunge
14:40:10 <Vorpal> (and Deewiant is the author of ccbi)
14:40:32 <Vorpal> Fuco, I would not spend time on rcfunge code personally. From what I seen it is rather a mess.
14:41:14 <Vorpal> Fuco, much more fun to write your own implementation from scratch :)
14:41:31 <Vorpal> if you do I suggest using this test suite. http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology.html
14:43:23 <Fuco> how can I untar bz2? :D
14:43:44 <Fuco> tar xvfz don't work (z is for gzip?)
14:44:36 <Deewiant> With GNU tar, just leave out the z or j, it'll figure it out.
14:44:51 <Vorpal> Fuco, are you using ccbi or cfunge? for cfunge I need to make another release soon, sometime. There are quite a few important bug fixes in the trunk
14:45:06 <Vorpal> (I think, haven't been working on cfunge for a while now)
14:45:51 <Fuco> right now I'm compiling cfunge
14:46:08 <Vorpal> aargh, gcc 4.6 gives quite a few warnings.
14:46:17 <Vorpal> time to start working on cfunge again XD
14:46:55 <Fuco> wow, sweet makefile
14:46:59 <Fuco> lots of colors :D
14:47:47 <Fuco> YES, it works! :D
14:47:57 <Fuco> be blessed good sir =)
14:48:08 <Vorpal> Fuco, if it is last release I think there are a handful of bugs in it
14:48:26 <Fuco> well I'm using rather basic stuff
14:48:44 <Fuco> we have this challenge with a friend to write a befunge irc bot :D
14:49:10 <Gregor> fungot: Tell Fuco how his challenge is redundant.
14:49:11 <fungot> Gregor: it'd be cooler if not esoteric
14:49:25 <Gregor> Fuco: fungot seems to want you to write a C IRC bot.
14:49:25 <fungot> Gregor: well i know why i chose term result. solving the first part of the joke too...
14:49:59 <Fuco> well I know about fungot
14:49:59 <fungot> Fuco: there is such a hack.
14:50:03 <Fuco> but I want to do it myself :P
14:50:40 <Fuco> that's the fun part after all, right :)
14:52:34 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Oy cmake >_< <-- yes. I'd not use it if I were to do it all again
14:52:39 <Vorpal> but it is more work switching away now
14:54:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, probably autotools. Because stuff like cross compiling and what not just works. But there is really no good C build system.
14:55:08 <Deewiant> Yeah, CMake is my current preference
14:55:16 <Deewiant> autotools is a no-go because I think of Windows :-P
14:55:48 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it can get tedious with cmake doing stuff that is simple in autotools. I have quite a handful of cmake macros for such stuff...
14:55:56 <Vorpal> CfungeCheckCflag.cmake CfungeCheckLinkerFlag.cmake CfungeRequireInclude.cmake MacroAddLinkFlags.cmake
14:55:56 <Vorpal> CfungeCheckFunction.cmake CfungeCheckWarningFlags.cmake CfungeRequireMultipleIncludes.cmake
14:55:56 <Vorpal> CfungeCheckLibraryFunction.cmake CfungeRequireFunction.cmake CfungeSetBuildInfoFlags.cmake
14:56:11 <Gregor> autotools is miles ahead of cmake, and for me portability to Windows means "builds with MingW in MSYS" :P
14:56:15 <Deewiant> I don't feel the need to test for the existence of stdio.h :-P
14:56:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, indeed nor do I
14:56:32 <Deewiant> Running ./configure --help in MSYS takes a minute
14:56:36 <Gregor> Deewiant: If you are checking for it, then you're autotoolsing utterly wrong.
14:57:16 <Gregor> Step one for making a tolerable autotools: Run autoscan, then disregard the vast majority of what it generates.
14:57:37 <Gregor> Deewiant: And yes, but then Windows is an intolerably shitty OS and when possible I usually cross-compile for it rather than building natively :P
14:57:39 <Deewiant> Vorpal: But you check for C99 headers and stuff
14:57:49 <Vorpal> Deewiant, because openbsd used to be crazy
14:58:08 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well I only check a handful there.
14:58:17 <Gregor> I'll bet the build DOESN'T fail, it works around (?)
14:58:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, it fails on missing some C99 headers
14:58:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and openbsd was missing acosl and such
14:58:39 <Deewiant> And then a few dozen POSIX/C99 functions
14:59:00 <Vorpal> and random() is actually XSI
14:59:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I only need C99 + pure POSIX.1-2001 + mmap, at least that is my intention.
14:59:40 <Deewiant> Again, I'd just let the build fail
14:59:41 <Vorpal> oh wait, I require strdup too it seems
15:00:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, it was XSI last I checked
15:00:36 <Gregor> strdup() conforms to SVr4, 4.3BSD, POSIX.1-2001.
15:00:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, I suggest you check POSIX docs itself
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15:04:27 <Vorpal> hm POSIX 2001 lists it as XSI, but POSIX 2008 lists it as CX
15:04:33 <Vorpal> what on earth is CX...
15:05:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: Good lawd, it's NOT in base >_<
15:05:16 <Vorpal> ah extension to C.. Right it is mandatory in POSIX-2008
15:05:22 <Gregor> HATE when man pages are wrong.
15:05:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, if you check the feature test macros you will see it
15:06:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, actually the man page is correct. It conforms to an option group described in POSIX.1-2001. The man page just doesn't say POSIX.1-2001 makes it optional
15:06:25 <Vorpal> _SVID_SOURCE || _BSD_SOURCE || _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500 || _XOPEN_SOURCE && _XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED
15:06:25 <Vorpal> || /* Since glibc 2.12: */ _POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 200809L
15:06:26 <Gregor> Oh, I thought the man pages listed which group it was in when it wasn't in the base >_>
15:06:43 <Gregor> ... that's not in my man page!
15:06:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is in SYNOPSIS for me
15:07:09 <Vorpal> just below the prototypes
15:07:23 <Vorpal> let me check on a less bleeding edge system than arch
15:07:26 <Gregor> Gee, thanks for telling me how to get to the man page I'm ALREADY READING X_X
15:07:45 <Vorpal> on ubuntu lucid it lists: strdup(): _SVID_SOURCE || _BSD_SOURCE || _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500
15:08:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, I thought you were maybe checking man 3p strdup
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15:09:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, your system must be outdated
15:15:53 <Fuco> Vorpal: is there some way to display the actual fungespace during execution?
15:16:25 <Vorpal> Fuco, no, it doesn't make much sense anyway, befunge-98 has a huge funge space
15:16:35 <Vorpal> and well, mycology is huge, so it never been useful to me
15:16:49 <Vorpal> Fuco, if you want a good debugger I suggest ccbi.
15:17:29 <Fuco> well I don't need to see *all* of it :P just the relevant part where I store data
15:17:35 <Fuco> well, where I *think* I store data :D
15:17:36 <Vorpal> Fuco, there is a .gdbinit in the tarball for cfunge, with some useful gdb macros. But mostly useful to me since I know the code
15:18:24 <Vorpal> Fuco, if you didn't make a release build you could attach gdb and call void fungespace_dumparea(funge_cell minx, funge_cell miny, funge_cell maxx, funge_cell maxy)
15:18:36 <Vorpal> but yeah for debugger, ccbi is more practical
15:19:41 <Vorpal> Fuco, my goal is usually to debug the interpreter, not the program
15:20:15 <Fuco> screw debugers, I'll do it like a man
15:20:20 <Fuco> with careful trial and error
15:21:12 <Vorpal> Fuco, you can use -t to make cfunge print what it is doing
15:21:23 <Vorpal> gives you different amounts of details
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15:21:43 <Vorpal> (I think -t 8 and -t 9 only differ in how much stuff they print for k
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15:30:05 <Vorpal> there. made some updates to cfunge (mostly docs)
15:30:44 <fizzie> fungot: Which version are you running on anyway?
15:30:45 <fungot> fizzie: it took part in the discussion?")
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15:36:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, you use a bzr checkout? bzr log | head
15:40:29 <oerjan> oklopol: do those first two axioms give you enough to do ordinary deduction with -> ? if so you can get from !!p -> (!!!!p -> !!p) to !!p -> (!!p -> p) and then to !!p -> p.
15:42:34 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah they give you intuitionistic logic afaik
15:43:33 <oklopol> so from (!!!!p -> !!p) you can get to (!!p -> p) by using #3 twice
15:43:52 <oklopol> and we need to do that inside the -> clause
15:44:05 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you realise that total memory on http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/ is quite useless?
15:44:05 <oklopol> yeah that's certainly possible
15:44:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, a lot is after all fixed overhead
15:44:38 <oklopol> oerjan: oh we just need a>b, b>c => a>c?
15:45:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I mean, cfunge will allocate quite a lot in one go at the start. And even for those that don't you are counting stuff like size of memory mapped libc.so a number of times
15:45:19 <oerjan> that and (p -> (p -> r)) -> (p -> r)
15:45:20 <Fuco> STRN 'D' instruction works really weirdly ;D
15:45:36 <Deewiant> Vorpal: You might want an interpreter that /doesn't/ allocate quite a lot in one go.
15:45:48 <Fuco> looks like it goes to the beginning of the line each time you print something
15:46:03 <oklopol> (p -> (p -> r)) => (p -> p) -> (p -> r)
15:46:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but malloc in libc already does!
15:46:18 <oklopol> => (p -> r) since p->p follows easily from #1 and #2
15:46:23 <Vorpal> <Fuco> looks like it goes to the beginning of the line each time you print something <-- no?
15:46:25 <oerjan> i couldn't immediately see how to get p->p
15:46:32 <Vorpal> Fuco, you must be using NCRS or something
15:46:46 <Vorpal> Fuco, or maybe you have a \n at the start of it?
15:47:10 <Vorpal> it is simply stack_pop_string(ip->stack, NULL); and fputs((char*)s, stdout);
15:47:15 <Vorpal> (plus some error checking)
15:47:33 <Vorpal> (cfunge uses unsigned char internally)
15:47:38 <oklopol> (p -> (q -> p)) -> ((p -> q) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> q) -> (p -> p) gives you p -> p
15:48:04 <oklopol> because q can be anything, in particular you can just use p -> (q -> p)
15:48:10 <Vorpal> speaking of which, I should avoid going to char for strings unless I'm doing IO
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15:48:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you don't test for that! If popped strings are casted to char* or are kept as cell*
15:49:16 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what does ccbi do there
15:49:27 <oklopol> we do what i did, but use q->p instead of q to get (p -> ((q -> p) -> p)) -> ((p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p), then you get p->p
15:49:37 <Vorpal> Deewiant, STRN C (strcmp) for example
15:49:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, does it compare them as arrays of cell, or as arrays of chars
15:50:13 <Deewiant> Beats me. Not as if it's specified anyway :-P
15:50:50 <Vorpal> Deewiant, right, could affect other fingerprints too. I see I'm somewhat inconsistent in STRN, some things are done as char* some as array of cells directly (due to never using pop string function)
15:51:40 <Vorpal> most cases I use stack_pop_string seems to be IO
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15:58:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, you might want to update cfunge that fungot runs on if older than r823. There are some fixes for bug in STRN (which you use iirc) since then
15:58:06 <fungot> Vorpal: toys is so vague it is hard to understand why pretentiousness doesn't carry past a single generation
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15:58:29 <Vorpal> TOYS butterfly operation certainly is
15:58:49 <Vorpal> not sure about which generations you mean
15:59:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, sorry, make that r850
16:29:15 <Vorpal> this is awesome, and utterly scary. I would never dare use it: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Conversion_from_Ext3
16:31:33 <tswett_56> copumpkin: quit responding to tweets in IRC! I never understand what you're tlaking about! :P
16:32:56 <tswett_56> Since I'm not a fan of security through obscurity, here's the phrase copumpkin was referring to:
16:33:00 <tswett_56> "The bagel exam is out. I've scurried over to MAK."
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16:54:16 <Vorpal> I look forward to btrfs becoming stable
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17:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> we do what i did, but use q->p instead of q to get (p -> ((q -> p) -> p)) -> ((p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p), then you get p->p
17:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you been trying to prove p → p from p→(q→p) and (p→(q→r))→((p→q)→(p→r))?
17:03:35 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i have been trying to prove what i said i was trying to prove, so no
17:04:01 <oklopol> what we did was prove !!p -> p
17:04:41 <oklopol> kind of obvious once i applied oerjan to get the starting point !!p -> (!!!!p -> !!p)
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17:20:58 <cheater99> I heard Ørjan had an evil twin, his name was Örjan
17:38:50 <Vorpal> cheater99, strange for a twin to use a different alphabet.
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18:04:40 <Ilari> Hah, Linux times out connection attempts to unreachable on-link hosts in 3 seconds (with "no route to host" error).
18:04:58 <oklofok> tswett: voi saatanan saatana
18:07:12 <tswett> Terve. Minä olen kivi.
18:07:46 <tswett> Sinä myös oletko kivi?
18:08:34 <Deewiant> s/ä myös oletko/äkö myös olet/
18:08:58 <oklofok> also oletko sin mys kivi is better
18:09:16 <oklofok> even though it's ambiguous
18:09:26 <Deewiant> "You, too, are?" vs "are you also?"
18:09:27 <tswett> Finnish also does inversion like that?
18:10:11 <tswett> Is it the same ambiguity that "Are you a stone as well?" has in English?
18:10:38 <oklofok> yeah true exactly same thing as in english
18:11:05 <tswett> Kivi kuva kivi kuva kivi kuva. Kivi syö kuvan. Kuva ei syö kivin.
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18:11:59 <oklofok> can't use genitive with negation
18:12:24 <tswett> Kuva ei syö kiveä. And it's the partitive because it's negated, there?
18:12:40 <oklofok> yes, in positive you can say both kiven and kive
18:12:46 <cheater99> Vorpal: but then you realize that he's the.. EVIL twin
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18:14:13 <tswett> Lasken, lasket, laskee, laske. Minä, minun, minua, minut.
18:14:22 <tswett> Koira laskee minut irti.
18:15:33 <tswett> That depends; what does "laskea irti" mean?
18:23:47 <tswett> -Ni, -si, -nsa. Koirani tappaa koiransi.
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18:25:26 <tswett> Do you drop the declension for possessive suffixes or something?
18:26:07 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what you're trying to mean with -nsi
18:26:21 <tswett> The accusative and second-person possessive.
18:27:39 <oklofok> koirallani on koiraltasi saatuja karvoja
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18:29:48 <tswett> I'll have to correct Google Translate's "my dog is koiraltasi from hairs" later. Right now, I have to go outside or something.
18:29:53 <tswett> Forgive the Unicode disaster.
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19:05:07 <elliott> where's oerjan where you need him
19:05:08 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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19:26:29 <olsner> elliott: why/when would you ever need him?
19:39:01 <oklofok> well it's hard to get oerjan to think for you, it's just he doesn't have to think to solve all my problems
19:39:16 <oklofok> (disclaimer: may not be true)
19:48:59 <elliott> if (interned == NIL) ptr = interned = cons(NIL, NIL);
19:48:59 <elliott> if (!strcmp((char *) CAR(record), s)) {
19:50:22 <elliott> I need the symbol NIL to make NIL, so I need to intern it, but the interning code relies on NIL :P
19:55:26 <elliott> Bleh, my architecture, it is broken.
19:55:57 <elliott> It looks like I _do_ need three-conses.
19:56:27 <olsner> elliott: you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is
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20:00:51 <Gregor> elliott: I'm disappointed by 77lang's restrictive word size, but unsure how to extend it without creating endianness problems.
20:01:31 <Gregor> That might be complicated in <140 bytes.
20:01:37 <elliott> Gregor: But srsly, I think some kind of ByteByte thing might work.
20:01:57 <elliott> Gregor: Say, an X[asterisk]X-bit WordWordJump.
20:02:03 <elliott> Where X is sizeof(int)timeseight
20:04:11 <Gregor> elliott: Upon reading wiki page: BECOMING LESS CONVINCED
20:04:18 <elliott> Gregor: Like I said, use the same size.
20:04:21 <elliott> So there's no casting involved.
20:04:34 <Gregor> elliott: That doesn't solve the word size issue, although it MIGHT be smaller.
20:05:04 <elliott> for(;;){m[p[1]]=m[*p];p=m+p[2];}
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20:05:08 <elliott> That's a pretty short main loop /shrug
20:05:24 <elliott> Gregor: It'd be word-size specific, but you could just assume int is thirty-two bits :P
20:05:36 <Gregor> elliott: If I use int, then it's endianness-specific.
20:05:53 <elliott> Endianness will always be an issue unless you use char, end of story :P
20:06:02 <Gregor> I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT
20:06:12 <Gregor> I SHALL INTRODUCE A SEGMENT REGISTER
20:06:32 <Gregor> Hard to imagine I could get a cyclic tag system in little C >_>
20:06:44 <Gregor> Because it's fucking C :P
20:07:53 <elliott> Gregor: And self-BCT is "maybe" TC.
20:08:20 <elliott> BCT where data string = program string.
20:10:37 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/tQoZq.jpg
20:15:18 <tswett> I think C is the most platform-dependent platform-independent language I know of.
20:16:38 <Gregor> I think that honor goes to ... a.out :P
20:17:31 <tswett> Does a.out contain machine code?
20:18:04 <Gregor> Yes, but the "language" a.out doesn't specify the machine code, a.out itself is platform-independent.
20:18:24 <Gregor> You can load an x86 a.out file on ARM, and it'll load ... it just won't run.
20:18:40 <olsner> it just *might* not run
20:18:59 <olsner> you could conceivably write arm/x86 polyglots
20:19:02 <Gregor> But that's the point, it's not up to the a.out language to know or care.
20:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Although a.out isn't an a.out file and hasn't been for ages
20:19:37 <Gregor> I'm not talking about the output of cc, I'm talking about a.out.
20:20:02 <elliott> ELF is more portable than a.out these days :P
20:20:13 <Gregor> Yeah, but a.out requires a fuckload less thought :)
20:20:32 <olsner> ELF has headers that specify the architecture, not portable at all
20:20:43 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OMG WE KNOW THAT YOU'RE NOT TELLING US ANYTHING SHUT UP
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20:25:04 <monqy> I didn't read what phantom_hoover said but I agree with gregor
20:32:03 <Gregor> elliott: I just realized that even ignoring the endianness issue, changing to int breaks everything because gets() will only read 'til a NULL, so every pointer would need to be to at least 0x01010101 >_>
20:32:45 <Gregor> Errr ... and so would all jump offsets <_<
20:33:06 <Gregor> Straightline code is at zero. Data and other code is at 16MB. Final output ... is at 0 again.
20:33:42 <Gregor> My ability to use number names and numbers consistently is at ze0.
20:36:23 <oklofok> i think i need some radio silence
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20:37:27 <olsner> radio silence? I guess the russians are invading again
20:37:43 <olsner> god forbid they get their hands on our esoterica
20:38:09 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are now taking up collections for the "elliott needs a sense of fnarf" fund | GOD BLESS CAPITALISM | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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21:05:16 <Gregor> Apr 19 23:27:52 <elliott> Yahweasel: OK, I've figured out the problem.
21:05:16 <Gregor> Apr 19 23:28:07 <elliott> Yahweasel: Your definition of "taste" is one that involves not having a nose.
21:05:16 <Gregor> Apr 19 23:28:14 <elliott> Therefore it is utterly unrelated to the sense known as "taste".
21:06:02 <Gregor> Apr 19 23:28:18 <elliott> I propose you use the word "fnarf" instead.
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21:31:41 <elliott> ais523: how can your become-inactive promise actually be used?
21:32:14 <ais523> elliott: if you get me to transfer it to you, you can cash it and I become inactive
21:32:35 <ais523> in order to get me to transfer it to you, you'd need to give me something of approximately equal or greater value in return
21:32:35 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is there no Promise infrastructure for pledging to transfer them somehow?
21:32:41 <elliott> like, promising to transfer a promise :-D
21:32:56 <elliott> also, can't you immediately become active again?
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21:36:34 <ais523> but I'm not imposing a period of time on anyone else's version either
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21:37:04 <ais523> the ability to inactivate someone so that they miss a key deadline (via timing scam) is incredibly useful, though
21:37:11 <ais523> which is why I collect them whenever such a rule exists
21:38:03 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: hmm, is there no Promise infrastructure for pledging to transfer them somehow?
21:38:17 <ais523> elliott: no there isn't
21:38:24 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I'll trade it to you for a Promise that I cash in your Promise
21:38:27 <ais523> there's meant to be an element of trust involved here
21:38:38 <tswett> ais523: you can't just make a Promise to do it?
21:38:40 <elliott> that way, you can cash the promise I give you immediately, and become inactive immediately
21:38:41 <ais523> elliott: err, that's a little indirect
21:38:43 <elliott> then become immediately active again
21:38:54 <elliott> ais523: yep, but it puts the power into your hands
21:39:01 <ais523> oh, umm, I'm confused now
21:39:35 <elliott> ais523: I'll Promise "I cash in ais523's Promise about going inactive, unless I do not have that Promise.", transfer that to you, and you can transfer the Promise in question to me
21:39:36 <ais523> it's also buggy, as if I hung onto the original promise, I could just destroy it, leaving my message with no referent when you tried to cash the indirect promise
21:39:42 <elliott> then, you can cash in on that promise to become inactive
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21:40:02 <ais523> oh, but I don't gain anything from that, right?
21:40:08 <ais523> all I get is the ability to indirectly make myself inactive
21:40:18 <ais523> and why would I want that, when I can directly make myself inactive instead?
21:40:21 <elliott> ais523: well, you get the satisfaction of confusing everything
21:40:26 <elliott> ais523: well, you get the satisfaction of confusing everybody slightly
21:40:36 <ais523> meh, I doubt I'll take up that offer
21:40:39 <elliott> ais523: What I'm trying to do is make the transfer one of very small values like that
21:40:59 <elliott> ais523: because I don't really have anything worth enough to get your actual Promise
21:41:08 <ais523> elliott: I'd just want you to make a similar promise yourself
21:41:18 <ais523> so then, you can make me inactive, and I can make you inactive
21:41:20 <elliott> ais523: I don't want to do that; that's boring
21:41:39 <elliott> Well, I might, but only if you really decide that confusing everyone isn't a good way to start the economy.
21:41:44 <elliott> Which would be a lame thing to decide.
21:43:13 <elliott> ais523: { I create a Promise "I cash in ais523's Promise to go inactive", with the condition {I, ehird, currently possess ais523's Promise to go inactive}, and transfer it to ais523. }
21:43:28 <ais523> elliott: but this is completely useless to me
21:43:41 <ais523> as this ends up with: you can make me go inactive; I can make me go inactive
21:43:45 <ais523> and I have no advantages at all
21:44:13 <ais523> it's like saying "could you give me £10, and in return I'll give you your £10 back if you ask for it and I haven't spent it yet"
21:44:19 <ais523> in what way does that benefit me?
21:46:16 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't benefit you in raw, hard currency at all. Note that I expect you to cash it immediately, thus removing my ability to make you go inactive.
21:46:30 <ais523> yes, but then nothing's happened, altogether
21:46:34 <ais523> so there's still no benefit
21:46:35 <elliott> ais523: The actual benefit is in the metagame, i.e. being vaguely confusing.
21:46:43 <elliott> ais523: By your logic, winning has no benefit.
21:46:59 <ais523> yes it does, because contribution towards a win is how I measure benefit in Agora
21:47:18 <elliott> ais523: you've never performed an action in Agora just because it was amusing?
21:47:30 <ais523> but I think that action is anti-amusing
21:47:52 <ais523> admittedly, my latest action is mostly amusement because win-by-paradox was repealed
21:48:09 <ais523> but I consider Agora's win conditions to mostly be well-crafted and interesting things to aim for
21:48:16 <ais523> and that holds true even after they've been repealed
21:48:33 <elliott> ais523: anti-amusing? how?
21:48:41 <ais523> because it's boring and random for no benefit
21:49:21 <ais523> also, there's a potential rules bug which makes me want to avoid becoming inactive even for a few seconds for no reason
21:49:24 <elliott> can Promises have lasting effects?
21:50:48 <ais523> can a message have lasting effects?
21:51:41 <elliott> ais523: what's a simple but illegal action?
21:51:54 <ais523> I'm not sure, in the current ruleset
21:51:56 <elliott> ah, intend to ratify something false
21:52:02 <elliott> A player SHALL NOT knowingly use or announce intent to use
21:52:02 <elliott> Ratification Without Objection to ratify a (prior to
21:52:02 <elliott> ratification) incorrect document when a corrected document could
21:52:02 <elliott> be produced with reasonable effort, unless the general nature of
21:52:07 <elliott> never mind, that's not as clear
21:52:13 <ais523> anyway, this is the wrong channel, and I don't really have much interest in continuing the conversation
21:54:28 <elliott> ais523: just transferred you a Promise
21:54:46 <elliott> gah, I forgot to specify a scope
21:55:43 <ais523> that's, umm, quite a promise
21:56:01 <elliott> I'm trying to create a Promise insanely valuable, but so personally harmful that you'll never cash it.
21:56:09 <elliott> Or transfer it to someone likely to cash it.
21:56:21 <elliott> I suppose it's only insanely valuable to someone who really hates me.
21:56:32 <elliott> Unfortunately the intent is wrong because it doesn't specify a scope.
21:56:39 <ais523> I could transfer it to someone who hates you, and they couldn't cash it anyway
21:56:49 <ais523> unless I gave you my inactivity promise
21:57:11 <ais523> or I could destroy it to save the recordkeepors some issue
21:57:14 <elliott> ais523: I was assuming that it was valuable enough for that to be a given.
21:57:25 <elliott> ais523: Given that it can be used to accomplish the same as me becoming inactive, just more destructively.
21:57:34 <ais523> otoh, I could use it myself, in that deregistering you has a stronger effect that inactivating you has
21:57:55 <elliott> Precisely, but I feel you're too Lawful Good to do that, because of the criminal cases that would result from the ratification intents.
21:58:17 <ais523> yes, but it's you who's doing the illegal actions, not me
21:58:35 <elliott> Yes, but I think you're too kind to make me do that.
21:58:55 <ais523> the illegal actions in question are also buggy, incidentally, and probably not illegal at all
22:00:16 <ais523> but I was pointing out that your promise is pretty much a straight deregistration
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22:01:21 <ais523> also, the condition is buggy; I can trade you my promise just before cashing yours
22:01:24 <elliott> ais523: yes, but only by accident
22:01:28 <ais523> then as you're deregistered, it goes to the L&FD
22:01:37 <ais523> so it's not a trade at all
22:02:47 * oerjan deposits 5 quatloos in the fnarf fund
22:07:12 <oerjan> <elliott> I need the symbol NIL to make NIL, so I need to intern it, but the interning code relies on NIL :P
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