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00:02:25 <zzo38> I found this message in some public comment page: listen i cant get on the sight and i want my money back ive been trying since yesterday and its not my computer its the sight i wish someone would email me back melissa
00:02:58 <zzo38> Note that they gave no contact information, they certainly could get on the site (to post the comment), and they don't charge any money to access it.
00:08:16 <oerjan> that reminds me that there was some big confusion once when google started returning a different result when you searched for the name of some big site (or possibly it was "<name of big site> login")
00:08:45 <oerjan> turns out lots of people go to sites by searching for them and clicking the first google result, always
00:08:58 <oerjan> *a different top result
00:10:19 <oerjan> so now people ended up on the wrong page, which had a comment section, and complained there that the site had changed and they couldn't find anything. or something like that.
00:11:24 <oerjan> http://www.facebookloginhut.com/facebook-news/facebook-login-in-google/
00:15:10 <oerjan> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook_wants_to_be_your_one_true_login.php was the site (lots of ads there)
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00:22:43 <zzo38> I don't even use Facebook. I don't want to use Facebook.
00:23:16 <zzo38> But I sometimes use OpenID login.
00:50:46 <CakeProphet> oh god... my professor wants me to call them.
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00:55:32 <CakeProphet> I wonder if I should just explain in an email that I have ridiculous phone call anxiety instead of avoiding the situation like I normally do.
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00:57:46 * Sgeo looks at a video of Hedgewars
00:57:53 <Sgeo> It's very, very much a Worms clone
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01:05:26 <Sgeo> "eaturing humorous[citation needed] in-game references to various other media titles including Star Wars, Star Trek, World of Warcraft, Neverwinter Nights, 300, Lord of the Rings, The Colour of Magic, Castlevania, Highlander, Indiana Jones, and Monty Python and the Holy Grail."
01:05:36 * Sgeo lols at the [citation needed] for humorous
01:08:47 <CakeProphet> but yeah, it's a great game despire various buginess.
01:17:57 <CakeProphet> ...what kind of bugs could there possibly be.
01:19:02 <zzo38> I have used the "yes" command to produce a continuous tone on the sound card
01:19:09 <CakeProphet> I could use that when installing things with cpan actually. It always asks if I want to install dependencies.
01:19:12 <Sgeo> yes | write elliott
01:20:08 <CakeProphet> that's cool. I was actually looking for bash utilities that are geared towards shell scripting, but that's a good one too.
01:20:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: And that is why they have the "mesg n" command, I think
01:21:22 <Sgeo> yes everything I type in here will now be prefixed with yes
01:22:19 <zzo38> CakeProphet: I think it usually is, at least the last time I used "write", the recipient was able to receive it.
01:24:29 <CakeProphet> oh okay, nevermind. I thought "allowing write access" meant something completely different. Like, allowing bash input from other sources.
01:25:41 <oklofok> "<Sgeo> Oracle's awesome" <<< oracle's are indeed awesome!
01:26:16 <Sgeo> For the record, I was referring to the Internet Oracle.
01:28:05 <CakeProphet> The oracle was a very awesome program in the matrix. Proving P=NP doesn't even come close.
01:29:24 <CakeProphet> (I realize my above statement is mostly nonsense. Please allow the rational side of your mind to disregard that.)
01:31:28 <oklofok> as is well known P^A = NP^A and P^B != NP^B for some oracles A and B
01:31:32 <oklofok> haven't seen the proof tho
01:31:34 <CakeProphet> so far the most useful thing I've found in shell scripting is that you can pipe to a while loop and use read to grab lines.
01:31:59 <oklofok> anyone familiar with these? oh wait no one is ever familiar with anything
01:32:49 <CakeProphet> you can pretty much assume that I have a limited background in theoretical computer science beyond a certain point.
01:33:23 <Sgeo> I've... heard of PSPACE
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01:34:03 <oklofok> CakeProphet: i would be extremely surprised if *anyone* *anywhere* was able to tell me how that result is proven
01:34:25 <oklofok> luckily i have it in book form and will hopefully be able to tell you guys this week
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01:35:01 <oklofok> occasionally you find people at the uni who recall having read these proofs
01:35:16 <oklofok> and have no idea how they're proven
01:35:18 * Sgeo goes to try to download Hedgewars via BitTorrent
01:40:09 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/1914031
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01:41:55 <Sgeo> No, got a user account on a website, and that was a private message
01:43:35 <CakeProphet> oklofok: I was under the impression that using oracles to prove something is a silly thing to do.
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01:51:08 <Sgeo> Fire sucks in this game
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01:54:09 <oklofok> because of the fact that P^A = NP^A and P^B != NP^B, relativizable techniques cannot be used to prove P = NP, is that what you're referring to?
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01:54:40 <oklofok> relativizable = technique such that if you prove X != Y for some classes X and Y using that technique, you will have proven X^A != Y^A for all oracles A as well
01:56:11 <oklofok> (if the class of languages X is defined using machines of some type, X^A is the class of languages obtained by taking those same machines, except they can solve inclusion in A in no time (in time 1))
01:56:45 <oklofok> (that is not a formal definition obviously, but it's obvious how it's done for the natural classes like P or NP or whatever)
01:57:02 <oklofok> (i mean it's obvious what the natural definition is)
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02:04:05 <pikhq_> SO MUCH LINEAR ALGEBRA
02:04:25 <pikhq_> Putting it off until the very last day possible == bad idea
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02:05:25 <oklofok> linear algebra is fun but all the proofs are the same you just go hmmm dimensions uh! dimensions
02:06:36 <pikhq_> You make it sound like a chant.
02:06:52 <pikhq_> "Hmmmm.... Dimensions... Uuuuhhh.... Dimensions..." ad infinitum
02:07:17 * Sgeo goes to read a manual
02:09:11 <CakeProphet> I'm thinking about taking Topology as one of my electives.
02:09:28 <CakeProphet> but I have to take "Introduction to Advanced Mathematics" first.
02:09:33 <oklofok> mmmm topology mmmm topology
02:16:31 <oklofok> are you trying to decide whether you're gonna take Topology or Parsing Perl - An Adventure!
02:17:24 <CakeProphet> No. My mind just tends to jump to other topics very quickly.
02:19:21 <CakeProphet> the first // is defined-or, the second // is an empty pattern. :)
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03:06:35 * Sgeo thinks that namecoins are more interesting than bitcoins
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03:52:17 <NihilistDandy> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/11762072/native-html5
03:55:04 <oklofok> nihilist daddy would be better
03:55:26 <oklofok> oh i'm gonna call you daddy bigtime
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04:13:11 <pikhq_> SO VERY MUCH LINEAR ALGEBRA
04:20:30 <pikhq_> Contrary to popular belief, computation is devoid of pedagogical value!
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04:55:29 <zzo38> Have you ever even used the "mesg n" command?
04:56:50 <zzo38> Are you ever going to compose a piece called "Eine kleine Quinemusik"?
04:57:05 * Sgeo is not a composer.
05:11:19 -!- gropaga has changed nick to copumpkin.
05:16:18 <pikhq_> zzo38: "Eine kleine Quinemusik" is certainly an interesting title for a piece.
05:16:26 <pikhq_> Perhaps Gregor would like to steal it.
05:17:55 <zzo38> pikhq_: It is mentioned on esolang wiki, as a quine program in a programming language where both input and output are form of music.
05:18:19 <Sgeo> Moth lands in boiling water. I scoop moth out with a cup. I let it boil for some time.
05:18:24 <Sgeo> Will the pasta be safe to eat?
05:18:36 <zzo38> Probably, but not certain.
05:19:47 <zzo38> I have written some musics using Bohlen-Pierce although they not completely since they have only one voice with no dynamics or anything like that, just the notes and note lengths, and rests.
05:20:23 <zzo38> How many? Maybe fifteen such musics, I have done.
05:21:53 <zzo38> I played D&D today please read the recording? I know there is some typographical errors and it isn't perfectly well written, and maybe the chicken briefly changes into a duck half way through, but that isn't the point.
05:22:33 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Boiling is sufficient for disinfecting in most contexts.
05:22:58 <Sgeo> How long for though? I think I only let it boil a few extra minutes after the incident
05:23:14 <zzo38> Sgeo: How long does it normally take to boil that kind of pasta?
05:23:28 <Sgeo> Also, I don't know how cold cups are affected by boiling water
05:23:37 <Sgeo> There might be wax in my pasta now or something
05:23:57 * Sgeo decides to assume that wax is not lethal
05:24:14 <zzo38> Well, then, you can learn by experience maybe (that is, if it is not lethal)
05:26:17 <zzo38> Is it a good idea to make a mark of chalk on the shaman's body to tell the difference from the imposter?
05:28:01 <Sgeo> pikhq_, if I die, I'm blaming you
05:28:20 <zzo38> Can you blame someone if you are dead?
05:28:48 <zzo38> How can you write the report if you are dead?
05:29:02 <Sgeo> zzo38, it's a joke.
05:31:23 <zzo38> But if you are making an experiment, you try to see what is deadly, you cannot write the report if you are dead! One way to test, I suppose, is ask people who are marked already for death penalty, to try and then you write the report if they are dead or not.
05:32:34 <Sgeo> Sounds Foundation-like
05:32:54 <zzo38> What is "Foundation-like"?
05:33:04 <Sgeo> zzo38, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com
05:33:19 <zzo38> Yes, I read that before
05:33:52 <zzo38> But they sometimes delete files too much
05:35:59 <Sgeo> There was one SCP that I loved that got deleted
05:36:18 <Sgeo> It was this little ruby gem capable of destroying structures, and perhaps the world if not controlled properly
05:36:28 <Sgeo> It was put into a spinning thing filled with mercury
05:36:36 <Sgeo> So it would not come in contact with a solid surface
05:38:57 <zzo38> If it gets too cold then it will become solid, I think
06:00:26 <zzo38> http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=nwolff-cvgameroom-2011-95-172&orientation=norm&submit=Print Do you think these players have made some bad moves?
06:02:49 <zzo38> I would have played 21. Rxh4*e7 although I don't actually know if it is better or what better move would actually be, I just try to guess. Instead he played 21. 5*e2 5h4 22. 5xe5+ but that just lets you get captured?
06:03:27 <zzo38> To me it seems that 21. Rxh4*e7 1e6 22. g3 might work, isn't it?
06:07:18 <CakeProphet> here's something for you: http://anyintelli.com/games/pawnduel/index.php
06:08:54 <CakeProphet> once you get it, you can win almost everytime.
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06:12:44 <zzo38> Do you have any interest in chess variants?
06:16:17 <coppro> CakeProphet: that's a game called ni
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09:18:12 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com.cy/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=3d2fe0574273c61c&hl=en pasting here for later reference
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13:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> There's been a Homestuck update, so I wouldn't be surprised if...
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14:32:04 <ais523> Gregor: I fear JSmips has been outdone: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browser
14:32:32 <elliott_> Because if so, it just talks to a remote -
14:33:15 <elliott_> lmao, someone checked the system specs
14:33:29 <elliott_> by jez9999 (618189) writes: on Tuesday May 17, @06:00AM (#36151038) Homepage Journal
14:33:29 <elliott_> Didn't work for me. It got to a text thing with a flashing cursor but stopped there. I don't see my Ubuntu desktop or browser icon.
14:33:40 <elliott_> Just gonna assume that's a joke :-P
14:34:54 <ais523> someone suggested running Apache on it
14:35:28 <ais523> if you could get it to serve the JS page itself, you could have a browser sending pages to itself
14:35:32 <ais523> which is sort-of ridiculous
14:36:04 <cheater__> [14:37] <cheater_> what i want to do is: run linux in javascript, and run php on top of that [14:37] <cheater_> then, use this php to validate forms.
14:36:43 <ais523> the same principle as the one behind node.js, just evilly backwards?
14:37:22 <cheater__> [14:37] <cheater_> ahahah [14:37] <cheater_> this is perfect.. [14:38] <cheater_> perfectly insane!!
14:37:28 <Gregor> ais523: Well, if it had to be done, at least it was Fabrice Bellard :)
14:37:59 <elliott_> <ais523> if you could get it to serve the JS page itself, you could have a browser sending pages to itself
14:38:05 <elliott_> Web Sockets don't do /serving/
14:42:39 <Deewiant> It doesn't appear to have network access anyway
14:43:45 <elliott_> Unsurprising since only Chrome has Web Sockets on by default
14:43:54 <elliott_> (Everyone else disabling it due to security issues until a new standard is out/implemented)
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15:03:16 <Vorpal> hm in haskell is there any built in function that lets me "map with a sliding window"? With that I mean something like: Given [1,2,3,4] I want the function called with 1 2 then with 2 3, 3 4. And it would return a tuple of two elements, so it would generate a new list of equal length
15:03:24 <Vorpal> but yeah I need to see two elements at a time
15:04:02 <cheater__> what you really want is a transformation from a list to a sliding window
15:04:16 <elliott_> Vorpal: I think there's a nice function for doing something similar.
15:04:19 <copumpkin> :t zip`ap`tail -- the aztec god of consecutive elements
15:04:33 <lambdabot> forall b c. (?f::b -> b -> c) => [b] -> [c]
15:04:43 <Vorpal> <copumpkin> :t zip`ap`tail -- the aztec god of consecutive elements <-- heh nice
15:04:52 <elliott_> So yeah, "zipWith f `ap` tail" should do it.
15:05:04 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
15:05:14 <elliott_> ap is generalised S combinator ;)
15:05:42 <ais523> ah, I was about to ask what ap did
15:05:44 <ais523> but I know what S does
15:05:52 <lambdabot> liftM2 f m1 m2 = do { x1 <- m1; x2 <- m2; return (f x1 x2) }
15:05:56 <lambdabot> forall a1 a2 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
15:06:17 <ais523> > (zip `ap` tail) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7]
15:06:17 <lambdabot> [(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5),(5,6),(6,7)]
15:06:18 <elliott_> ap is just \mf mx -> do f <- mf; x <- mx; return (f x)
15:06:42 <elliott_> > (zipWith (+) `ap` tail) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7]
15:06:49 <elliott_> > (zipWith (\x y -> [x,y]) `ap` tail) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7]
15:06:50 <lambdabot> [[1,2],[2,3],[3,4],[4,5],[5,6],[6,7]]
15:08:19 <Vorpal> that doesn't do quite the right thing but hm
15:08:23 <ais523> what does zip do if the two lists aren't the same length? just discard extra elements?
15:09:27 <elliott_> There's nothing else it /could/ do.
15:09:38 <ais523> @pl \x -> zip x (tail x)
15:09:54 <ais523> actually, ap isn't the S combinator, liftM2 is
15:09:59 <Vorpal> hm worst algorithm to get length of string ever
15:10:25 <lambdabot> (\ d e -> d >>= \ b -> e >>= \ a -> return (b a))
15:10:29 <Vorpal> > (x:xs) = tail (zip [1..] "foobar"); x
15:10:30 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
15:10:34 <ais523> @pl \x y z -> (x z) (y z)
15:10:35 <lambdabot> (\ d e -> d >>= \ b -> e >>= \ a -> return (b a)) :: functions
15:10:39 <ais523> hmm, it seems you're right
15:10:44 <Vorpal> > tail (zip [1..] "foobar")
15:10:44 <lambdabot> [(2,'o'),(3,'o'),(4,'b'),(5,'a'),(6,'r')]
15:10:47 <elliott_> ais523: <elliott_> ?pl \x y z -> x z (y z)
15:10:52 <Vorpal> what is last element now again
15:11:01 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
15:11:05 <Vorpal> > last (zip [1..] "foobar")
15:11:15 <Vorpal> this is ALMOST same as length :P
15:11:29 <Vorpal> I just need to get it out of there
15:11:31 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
15:11:41 <elliott_> Vorpal: I'm not sure why you're trying to do that, though :P
15:11:46 <Vorpal> > fst . last (zip [1..] "foobar")
15:11:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a, b)'
15:11:54 <ais523> what monad does ap work in when you give it a question that has nothing to do with monads? Identity?
15:12:00 <elliott_> (last (zip [1..] "foobar")) isn't a function.
15:12:03 <elliott_> So how can you compose a function with it?
15:12:06 <Vorpal> > fst $ last (zip [1..] "foobar")
15:12:12 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> b
15:12:30 <elliott_> > fst . last . zip [1..] $ "foobar"
15:12:43 <elliott_> length = fst . last . zip [1..]
15:12:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway this is kind of the silliest length function ever :P
15:12:53 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> b
15:12:53 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `id' is applied to too few arguments
15:12:53 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `ap', namely `id'
15:13:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, think haskell would optimise it?
15:13:05 <ais523> oh right, Haskell can't type the X combinator
15:13:37 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
15:13:41 <ais523> > foldl (+) map (const 1) $ "foobar"
15:13:42 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[(a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]]'
15:13:48 <ais523> umm, I've messed that up slightly
15:13:57 <elliott_> <ais523> oh right, Haskell can't type the X combinator
15:14:02 <elliott_> <Vorpal> elliott_, think haskell would optimise it?
15:14:04 <ais523> > foldl (+) (map (const 1)) $ "foobar"
15:14:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a] -> [t]'
15:14:07 <elliott_> List fusion is excellent, so it's possible.
15:14:17 <elliott_> Probably not down to length directly, though.
15:14:32 <ais523> > (foldl (+)) . (map (const 1)) $ "foobar"
15:14:33 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ([[t]] -> [t])
15:14:48 <elliott_> Prelude> foldl (+) (map (const 1)) $ "foobar"
15:14:48 <elliott_> Couldn't match expected type `[a0] -> [b0]' with actual type `Char'
15:14:49 <elliott_> In the second argument of `($)', namely `"foobar"'
15:14:51 <elliott_> In the expression: foldl (+) (map (const 1)) $ "foobar"
15:14:56 <ais523> I've probably got that composition backwards
15:14:58 <elliott_> Prelude> (foldl (+)) . (map (const 1)) $ "foobar"
15:15:03 <ais523> I know what I want to say, I'm just geting it wrong
15:15:04 <elliott_> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Num [b0])
15:15:11 <elliott_> ais523: foldl requires a zero value
15:15:22 <elliott_> > sum . map (const 1) $ "foobar"
15:15:26 <ais523> > (map (const 1)) . (foldl (+) 0)$ "foobar"
15:15:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
15:15:27 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Types...
15:15:35 <elliott_> ais523: no, you had it the right way around
15:15:39 <ais523> > (foldl (+) 0) . (map (const 1)) $ "foobar"
15:15:43 <ais523> I keep forgetting the semantics of .
15:15:56 <ais523> elliott_: in case you sum an empty list
15:16:22 <lambdabot> foldl' f a (x:xs) = let a' = f a x in a' `seq` foldl' f a' xs
15:16:29 <lambdabot> foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs
15:16:41 <lambdabot> Source not found. I feel much better now.
15:16:45 <elliott_> Hmm, wait, integers are strict
15:16:47 <elliott_> But other number types might not be
15:17:01 <elliott_> ais523: It might be good to assume I know the Prelude better than you if you keep forgetting what (.) does and don't know what seq is X-D
15:17:08 <ais523> force its left argument before running the right argument
15:17:14 <ais523> elliott_: I know you do, that's why I'm asking questions
15:17:24 <elliott_> I meant re: the foldl' thing :P
15:17:27 <elliott_> ais523: It doesn't mean the left argument will be evaluated immediately.
15:17:33 <elliott_> It just means it'll be evaluated before the thunk is.
15:17:46 <elliott_> i.e. if (a `seq` b) gets forced, a will get forced.
15:17:49 <ais523> so it's a lazy version of force left before evaluating right
15:17:59 <elliott_> But if (a `seq` b) isn't forced, then nothing happens.
15:18:07 <elliott_> ais523: There's no way to make a strict version, really
15:18:10 <ais523> how far does it go? e.g. if a returns type (), and the whole thing is forced, will anything happen to calculate that ()?
15:18:27 <elliott_> Or const x (foldl ... (... ... (_|_ `seq` x) ...) ...)
15:18:34 <ais523> elliott_: well, obviously not in Haskell
15:18:45 <ais523> you could define strict seq just fine in, say, algol 60
15:18:46 <elliott_> <ais523> how far does it go? e.g. if a returns type (), and the whole thing is forced, will anything happen to calculate that ()?
15:19:25 <ais523> so the left-hand value is just used uselessly, in a way
15:19:39 <lambdabot> forall a a1 b. (a -> (a1 -> b -> b) -> a1 -> b -> b) -> [a] -> a1 -> b -> b
15:19:47 <ais523> oh, I forgot the quotes
15:19:55 <ais523> now I'm wondering why that typed at all
15:20:02 <elliott_> ais523: lambdabot has function instances for Num, I think
15:20:07 <lambdabot> Only unit numeric type pattern is valid
15:20:17 <ais523> > ((4::Int)/0) `seq` ()
15:20:17 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
15:20:30 <ais523> ah, you can't divide an Int?
15:20:37 <ais523> that's what I was checking
15:20:37 <elliott_> ais523: No, but you can div one.
15:20:49 <ais523> makes sense; you can divide integers, but have to div ints
15:21:25 <ais523> does that handle negative numbers differently?
15:21:45 <ais523> guessing, I'd say -4 `div` 3 would be -1, and -4 `quot` 3 would be -2
15:22:07 <ais523> > ((div (-4) 3),(quot (-4) 3))
15:22:22 <ais523> heh, that's the opposite of what I predicted
15:22:26 <ais523> because I screwed up the maths
15:26:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, BtW, Timwi wants to make a new skin for the wiki.
15:27:07 <elliott_> I have increasingly become of the opinion that nobody should be allowed to make a MediaWiki anything but Monobook or Vector.
15:27:24 <elliott_> Oh dear, he just /asked/ for sysopship?
15:27:53 <ais523> elliott_: hmm, I think I might agree with you there
15:28:11 <elliott_> hmm... you can't actually add new skins as a sysop, can you?
15:28:17 <elliott_> you can modify the CSS of existing ones
15:28:20 <elliott_> but I don't think you can add new ones
15:28:23 <elliott_> making his request justification even odder
15:28:58 <ais523> elliott_: you can tweak the CSS and add JavaScript, but you definitely can't modify skins internally
15:29:06 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: HaskellWiki's new design is alright.
15:30:15 <elliott_> Asking for sysopship is definitely worrying though, in most places on the internet asking for power is a sure-fire way of making sure you don't get it
15:30:39 <elliott_> (Wikipedia is an exception, but Wikipedia handling sysophood in a certain way is usually an argument against that way :) )
15:31:11 <elliott_> ais523: you probably want to delete Subleq+, anyway
15:31:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, if I have two Data.Word.Word8 and want to add them together getting a Word8 back, why doesn't just a+b work?
15:31:45 <Vorpal> I misread the ghc error
15:31:55 <ais523> elliott_: I made it a redirect
15:32:22 <ais523> also, I got adminship on Esolang by asking Graue for it
15:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I got both sysop- and bureaucratship by asking, basically.
15:32:29 <ais523> but I gave an actual reason why it was needed
15:33:13 <ais523> and it wasn't direct asking, more I prompted enough that he asked me
15:33:20 <CakeProphet> I once asked for sysop privs on Wikipedia. Didn't happen.
15:33:59 <ais523> I can sort-of envisage how that RFA would go in my head
15:34:25 <elliott_> <Vorpal> elliott_, if I have two Data.Word.Word8 and want to add them together getting a Word8 back, why doesn't just a+b work?
15:34:54 <Deewiant> elliott_: Don't encourage him pinging people for followup comments as well
15:35:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, yeah I misread confusing ghc error
15:35:17 <Deewiant> elliott_: I.e. read the following lines before responding :-P
15:35:45 <elliott_> Deewiant: I was just confirming, and also punishing him for asking a question so soon with a ping ;D
15:37:15 <elliott_> ais523: I've replied to the thread about skins with a lot of parentheses and at least one neologism
15:39:44 <ais523> I dislike your spelling of sleekifiitude
15:39:52 <ais523> probably the third i is a little over the top
15:40:16 <elliott_> ais523: It's to aid pronunciation.
15:40:28 <ais523> (I'm also not convinced "jaggedy" is a real word, although I think I've seen it been used before)
15:40:30 <elliott_> "Sleekifyitude" just looks SILLY.
15:40:37 <elliott_> Jaggedy is real enough a word.
15:40:39 <ais523> it'd be easier to pronounce as "sleekifitude"
15:40:41 <elliott_> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jaggedy
15:40:59 <ais523> although pronounced differently
15:41:19 <elliott_> ais523: But that'd miss the subtle strands of meaning :(
15:41:47 <elliott_> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Learning_Haskell <-- lol at the implementations section
15:41:58 <elliott_> A really verbose table version of "Yeah, uh, just use GHC."
15:42:16 <elliott_> Hmm, Helium and UHC aren't exactly actively developed either.
15:42:38 <elliott_> Helium isn't, though, I don't think.
15:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott_, wasn't there a jhc?
15:43:28 <Gregor> I didn't realize that Haskell's logo was "Lambda on Commodore 64"
15:43:47 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yes, it's relatively well-developed but not really compatible with much IIRC.
15:43:56 <elliott_> And it's a whole-program-including-libraries compiler.
15:44:17 <elliott_> Gregor: It's been most-compared to Amtrak's logo :P
15:44:29 <elliott_> It's not the best logo from the contest IMO but it's alright.
15:44:48 <elliott_> http://www.blogonauts.com/eats-the-world/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Haskell_Logo.jpg ;; kickin' it oldschool
15:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, kind of cool iirc last I looked at it
15:45:16 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yeah, but it doesn't even have a REPL :P
15:45:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, whole program optimisation taken a step further than usual
15:45:28 <elliott_> It's useless for anyone trying to /learn/ Haskell.
15:45:29 <Gregor> Haskell bindings for libclang (a C++ parsing library)
15:45:44 <Gregor> libclang is a C++ parsing library now?
15:45:46 <elliott_> Vorpal: And I'm still not sure it's actually useful yet :P
15:46:04 <Vorpal> elliott_, it is cool however. Anyway this logo used to be used quite recently iirc? http://www.blogonauts.com/eats-the-world/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Haskell_Logo.jpg
15:46:13 <elliott_> Gregor: It seems to at least partially be, yes.
15:46:22 <elliott_> Vorpal: The new logo has been around for, like, over a year.
15:46:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, ah, quite new then
15:46:48 <elliott_> LibClang package provides direct bindings to libclang.
15:46:48 <elliott_> This should be enough for parsing C/C++ code, walking the AST and querying nodes and completion queries.
15:46:59 <elliott_> Gregor: It doesn't seem to actually have compilation support.
15:47:14 <Gregor> You guys FAIL SO HARD.
15:47:29 <elliott_> The person who wrote the binding?
15:47:32 <elliott_> Every Haskell user in existence?
15:47:37 <Gregor> I'm sure the binding is only to the parser, I was laughing at the suggestion that libclang is a "C++ parser library"
15:47:58 <elliott_> http://clang.llvm.org/doxygen/group__CINDEX.html
15:48:08 <elliott_> I don't really see anything related to non-parsing there.
15:48:19 <elliott_> Except for maybe "translation unit manipulation".
15:48:36 <Gregor> Translation unit m---that's one :P
15:48:55 <elliott_> Unless it just counts a C++ file as a translation unit.
15:49:00 <elliott_> Which is, IIRC, a perfectly valid definition.
15:49:09 <elliott_> CINDEX_LINKAGE CXTranslationUnit clang_parseTranslationUnit (CXIndex CIdx, const char *source_filename, const char *const *command_line_args, int num_command_line_args, struct CXUnsavedFile *unsaved_files, unsigned num_unsaved_files, unsigned options)
15:49:09 <elliott_> Parse the given source file and the translation unit corresponding to that file.
15:49:20 <elliott_> Maybe there are some non-parsing functions there, but it's certainly not obvious that there are.
15:49:42 <Gregor> Also, apparently libclang is made of fail :P
15:49:46 <fizzie> Like it says: "The C Interface to Clang provides a relatively small API that exposes facilities for parsing source code into an abstract syntax tree (AST), loading already-parsed ASTs, traversing the AST, associating physical source locations with elements within the AST, and other facilities that support Clang-based development tools."
15:49:48 <elliott_> So I feel like "libclang is a library to parse and analyse C and C++ (and probably Objective-C) source code" is a valid assessment.
15:49:56 <elliott_> fizzie: So, it is a parsing library then.
15:50:12 <Gregor> elliott_: BLAR. BLAR. BLAR.
15:50:41 <fizzie> It's still better than libgcc which doesn't have anything to do with compiling code. :p
15:53:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, should be libgccruntime or something like that
15:54:29 <ais523> fizzie: yes it does, it's a library of functions to compile code into
15:54:39 <elliott_> " So you’ve seen other skins that are rubbish, and because of that you don’t even want to let me try? — Timwi 15:53, 17 May 2011 (UTC)"
15:54:43 <elliott_> Sigh, this is going to turn into a spat, isn't it.
15:54:45 <ais523> in case your system doesn't have a 64-bit multiply or whatever, you can compile it into the libgcc version
15:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, where is that quote from?
15:55:10 <Vorpal> ais523, or in case it lacks a 32-bit add
15:55:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, what is it about really, skins?
15:56:08 <elliott_> Timwi wants to be a sysop so he can make a new default skin.
15:57:47 <ais523> elliott_: I've suggested that Timwi makes his pure-CSS skin using User:Timwi/myskin.css
15:58:09 <Vorpal> pure css skin? mediawiki?
15:58:10 <elliott_> ais523: ugh, I'm trying to edit the page, and I've already had /one/ edit conflict
15:58:43 <ais523> but a "if you think that's possible and will work well, prove it" response is better than a "that won't work" response, although I gave both
15:59:09 <ais523> note that Timwi apparently doesn't know how to make an internal link to a section
15:59:32 <ais523> which is not completely obvious, but I'd rather people knew that sort of thing before wanting to mess around with the MediaWiki: pages which are a lot more finicky
16:00:09 <Vorpal> ais523, it is [[#foo|whatever]] isn't it?
16:00:26 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, and [[page#foo|whatever]] to link to a section on a different page, which is what he was trying to do
16:01:06 <Vorpal> ais523, doing that to the same page works though, except it will cause the browser to reload the page. Oh and mess up with clicking them when doing preview on edit
16:01:31 <elliott_> wow, it's a pretty huge thread already
16:02:22 <ais523> btw, the problem with linking to pages with + in their name isn't a MediaWiki bug, it's a bug in the Apache mod_rewrite config
16:02:26 <ais523> but I don't know the solution offhand
16:05:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, which haskell mode for emacs do you suggest?
16:05:56 <elliott_> Vorpal: Latest haskell-mode from darcs.
16:06:03 <elliott_> (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-doc-mode)
16:06:04 <elliott_> (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-indentation)
16:06:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, why the last from darcs
16:06:15 <elliott_> Although haskell-indentation has been annoying me more and more lately because it tries to be too smart but not smart enough
16:06:21 <elliott_> Vorpal: Because the distro versions are really out of date
16:06:25 <elliott_> <elliott_> Although haskell-indentation has been annoying me more and more lately because it tries to be too smart but not smart enough
16:06:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, what am I going to miss?
16:06:31 <elliott_> (This will only apply if you do tricky nesting though :-P)
16:06:42 <elliott_> $ darcs get http://code.haskell.org/haskellmode-emacs/ haskell-mode
16:06:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, and installing that
16:06:54 <Vorpal> which I forgot how to do
16:06:54 <elliott_> Just "load" instead of "require".
16:07:05 <elliott_> (load "~/blah/haskell-mode/haskell-site-file.el")
16:07:08 <elliott_> (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-doc-mode)
16:07:08 <elliott_> (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-indentation)
16:08:41 <CakeProphet> I've never been able to get myself to use emacs.
16:09:05 <Vorpal> how do you precompile *.elc now again...
16:09:22 <elliott_> Vorpal: Do you really need to :P
16:09:27 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, gedit is terrible. kate is better
16:09:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes, I need to optimise loading time obviously
16:09:40 <elliott_> <Vorpal> CakeProphet, gedit is terrible. kate is better <-- stop trying to start a flamewar
16:09:49 <elliott_> (it'd be ok if you just flamed it without suggesting an alternative ;D)
16:09:59 <Vorpal> gedit is quite terrible
16:10:05 <elliott_> we need a lot of people who love kate in here
16:10:09 <Vorpal> and there are options but I refuse to tell you them
16:10:11 <elliott_> so we can get a good gedit/kate flamewar
16:10:19 <elliott_> then if a vi or emacs guy comes in, they'll assume we're all noobs
16:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, I don't love kate, I find it usable, but far from perfect
16:10:36 <CakeProphet> eh, it's not a particularly amazing piece of software, but it has syntax highlighting and automatic indents, which are the two essentials for me.
16:10:49 <ais523> elliott_: I use both Kate and gedit; and I think Kate is better but I use gedit more often
16:10:58 <elliott_> fizzie: "nano? Oh come on, they haven't even implemented [OBSCURE PICO KEY COMBINATION]."
16:11:02 <ais523> gedit's my Notepad substitute, for the sort of things that would work just fine in Notepad
16:11:07 <ais523> and I also use it for editing lua, for some reason
16:11:13 <ais523> unless it's really really complex lua, then I use Emacs
16:11:19 <elliott_> I wonder if anyone's made a faithful Notepad clone for GTK
16:11:28 <elliott_> including the automatic date insertion stuff
16:11:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, Remember it has to refuse to open too large files
16:11:53 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, why not use kate if you think it is better than gedit
16:12:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean, kate and gedit loads in about the same amount of time
16:12:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: Modern(TM) Notepad can handle large files.
16:12:48 <CakeProphet> ais523: Vorpal is very disgruntled by your gedit use, apparently. haha.
16:12:56 <Vorpal> no I'm just trying to understand
16:13:14 <fizzie> "Notepad makes use of a built-in window class named "EDIT". In older versions such as those included with Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Me and Windows 3.1, there is a 64k limit on the size of the file being edited, an operating system limit of the EDIT class."
16:13:29 <fizzie> So any NT-class Notepad should be mokay.
16:13:30 <elliott_> mostly because kdefour anything is a pain in anything
16:13:38 <Vorpal> I just realised I typed nano -w ~/.emacs
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16:14:18 <elliott_> real men and women and also people edit with LEADEN
16:14:47 <ais523> elliott_: which editor was yours that saved every keystroke and used a VCS for its undo feature?
16:15:27 <ais523> elliott_: I thought it might be
16:15:30 <elliott_> ais523: I never got to implementing the undo, though
16:15:32 <ais523> that would fit in so nicely with sg
16:15:36 <elliott_> although, it wasn't going to use VCS for undo, just for save
16:15:37 <ais523> which isn't really implemented either
16:15:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Have you pre-byte-compiled your Emacs init file already? The manual disrecommends it, but startup time is obviously crucial.
16:15:44 <elliott_> because branching undo with VCSes is a pain
16:15:47 <elliott_> since you have to explicitly branch
16:15:59 <elliott_> it'd serialise its own undo tree
16:16:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I forgot how to pre-byte-compile
16:16:03 <quintopia> how do you apply a .diff patch to a c project?
16:16:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know?
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16:16:31 <elliott_> OK, /I/ have troubles remembering how to use patch sometimes, but come on, you could have found out the answer to that in five seconds by Googling.
16:16:31 <Vorpal> anyway the init file: meh
16:16:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway real speed fans loads it into the emacs image
16:16:53 <Vorpal> (since emacs is already an image with pre-loaded stuff)
16:17:03 <quintopia> elliott_: it would take me at least 2 minutes. the only place i get 5 second answers is here
16:17:21 <elliott_> quintopia: you're really slow at clicking links
16:17:32 <fizzie> Real speed fans would just, you know, not bother with starting Emacs, since it's obviously already running.
16:17:52 <quintopia> elliott_: can't help the fact internet here is slow
16:18:29 <fizzie> (The manual recommends the Emacs server dealie as an alternative to byte-compiling init files.)
16:20:10 <Vorpal> oh make compile did it
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16:25:09 <elliott_> Emacs is like Windows, it's a really shitty platform but you use it anyway because of what's built on it
16:25:40 <elliott_> You're not reading the built-in tutorial are you?
16:26:13 <elliott_> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/?
16:26:43 <elliott_> Hey, read Xah Lee's tutorial; if nothing else it'll be AMUSING!
16:26:49 <elliott_> I will leave it up to fizzie to tell CakeProphet not to.
16:27:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, this example is simple old code: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/images/code.png
16:27:47 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, no x is just above alt
16:27:54 <Vorpal> so thumb + index finger
16:27:54 <elliott_> Vorpal: yes, which is why it's so awkward
16:28:00 <elliott_> yes, your thumb has to contort underneath your finger
16:28:12 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, anyway yeah it is rarely used
16:28:51 <elliott_> <Vorpal> elliott_, this example is simple old code: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/images/code.png
16:29:15 <Vorpal> but old, check functions
16:29:27 <CakeProphet> ...why would I ever remember all of these key combos....
16:29:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, come on, it is K&R
16:29:42 <elliott_> You realise Emacs was mature in the eighties, right?
16:29:52 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Because they do useful things?
16:29:57 <Vorpal> but no reason to not protoize it after
16:29:58 <elliott_> You don't have to remember THAT many.
16:30:00 <Vorpal> need to turn off computer
16:30:10 <elliott_> Vorpal: protoize affects semantics.
16:30:16 <elliott_> K[and]R functions do freaky upconversion.
16:30:41 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Heck, I even use the arrow keys.
16:30:42 <CakeProphet> elliott_: yeah but there's a whole list of things to memorize for doing simple stuff like... moving through text. Whereas every other text editor ever uses home, end, ctrl+left/right, etc
16:30:57 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Well, the point is that Ctrl+F/B/P/N avoid moving your hands...
16:31:09 <elliott_> But moving around in one-char increments is a stupid idea anyway.
16:31:47 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Anyway, Emacs is actually older than cursor keys. :p
16:31:58 <elliott_> (Older than cursor keys on PCs, anyway.)
16:32:05 <CakeProphet> a fast search and replace would be a significant boon towards emacs to me
16:32:19 <elliott_> Uhh... there are editors with SLOW search and replace?
16:32:30 <CakeProphet> as in like, a fast, non-interrupting search and replace.
16:33:01 <elliott_> ...how big files do you edit exactly
16:33:04 <CakeProphet> I like the idea of not having to deal with UI dialogs.
16:33:13 <CakeProphet> not as in a fast execution time for the search-replace.
16:33:17 <elliott_> Well, nothing in Emacs is non-interrupting, the damn thing doesn't even have threads.
16:33:26 <elliott_> It's done with the minibuffer.
16:33:46 <elliott_> M-x replace-string <RET> source <RET> replacement <RET>, although there's also a regexp version.
16:33:51 <elliott_> Maybe there's a keybinding for replace-string, dunno.
16:33:56 <elliott_> (In any case you can assign your own if you want.)
16:34:03 <CakeProphet> wait... no threads? Does it have weird "clunkiness" issues?
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16:34:24 <elliott_> Text editing doesn't exactly involve intensive computation.
16:34:34 <CakeProphet> hmmm so what's the difference between replace-string and replace-query
16:34:48 <elliott_> I don't even have that command here
16:35:03 <CakeProphet> ...I don't know, but this tour thing mentions it. it's C-% I think?
16:35:15 <elliott_> Dunno, it seems to act just like replace-string...
16:35:39 * elliott_ checks it out (C-h F query-replace)
16:35:51 <elliott_> If you want to change only some of the occurrences of `foo' to
16:35:52 <elliott_> `bar', not all of them, use `M-%' (`query-replace'). This command
16:35:52 <elliott_> finds occurrences of `foo' one by one, displays each occurrence and
16:35:52 <elliott_> asks you whether to replace it.
16:35:57 <elliott_> CakeProphet: replace-string just does it unconditionally.
16:38:05 <elliott_> There's other things to look up key binding, look up Lisp function/variable/etc., start the info reader, blah blah blah.
16:38:08 <CakeProphet> ....I won't even ask how F correlates to that. I guess "function"?
16:38:20 <elliott_> And, uhh, commands are functions?
16:38:31 <elliott_> God knows, I just looked it up in C-h ? since I forgot. :-P
16:38:39 <elliott_> (C-h ? being "help about C-h".)
16:38:44 <elliott_> (If only it was "help about C-h ?".)
16:38:46 <CakeProphet> ...hahaha. what happens if you forget C-h ?
16:38:58 <elliott_> I think it comes up if you press C-h and then sit there for a few seconds doing nothing.
16:39:04 <elliott_> If you forget C-h, I think you just give up.
16:39:15 <elliott_> But then you'd have to remember C-x C-c to quit.
16:39:35 <elliott_> Oh come on, how often do you quit your editor?
16:39:53 <elliott_> It's worth nothing that Emacs actually predates Ctrl+X/C/V altogether.
16:40:01 <fizzie> Vi's the canonical "oh no I'm trapped and can't get out" program.
16:40:02 <CakeProphet> Depends heavily on what I'm doing. With gedit it can be often.
16:40:03 <Deewiant> Often when doing one-off edits
16:40:14 <elliott_> Deewiant: Yes, but quitting Emacs is an Emacs anti-pattern.
16:40:23 <elliott_> You don't spawn a new Emacs just to make a one-off edit.
16:40:27 <ais523> elliott_: I think as soon as you press control-h, Emacs gives you a hint that you might want to press ? if you don't know what to do next
16:40:39 <ais523> elliott_: I do, because I have Emacs set up to remember state when I close it
16:40:40 <CakeProphet> I think I'd use gedit for quick edits anyways...
16:40:41 <elliott_> That's unintuitive[exclamation mark]
16:40:48 <elliott_> ais523: You don't use Emacs conventionally.
16:40:57 <fizzie> I think our new-student computer-system-primer documentation had a "here's what to do when you end up in vi" page.
16:41:04 <ais523> elliott_: indeed, but the option has to exist for a reason
16:41:11 <Deewiant> Give vim ^C and it says "type :quit", give ed ^C and it says "?"
16:41:18 <elliott_> ais523: Well, quitting Emacs is useful for reasons other than quitting other editors.
16:41:27 <elliott_> For instance: logging out of your time-sharing system.
16:41:50 <elliott_> Deewiant: I'm surprise GNU ed doesn't have fancy error messages.
16:41:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Regular" vi doesn't help you with ^C, though.
16:41:57 <ais523> Deewiant: vim reacts the same way on control-X control-C
16:42:05 <ais523> presumably to help out lost Emacs users
16:42:13 <ais523> although I never even thought of trying Emacs' quit sequence in vim
16:42:19 <elliott_> ais523: <Deewiant> Give vim ^C and it says "type :quit", give ed ^C and it says "?"
16:42:20 <elliott_> <ais523> Deewiant: vim reacts the same way on control-X control-C
16:42:29 <ais523> elliott_: yes, it's probably because the control- X doesn't leave it in a state where control-C has a different meaning
16:42:41 <elliott_> Ctrl+X literally does nothing.
16:42:46 <elliott_> I doubt that's to help out Emacs users.
16:43:12 <Deewiant> fizzie: I don't have regular vi on any of my machines, so I couldn't check :-P These days you run into vim more often anyway
16:43:16 <elliott_> CakeProphet: C-x is just a prefix.
16:43:21 <elliott_> It does nothing by itself, you just put stuff after it.
16:43:31 <elliott_> (Without it, you'd run out of keys on the keyboard to press to do things.)
16:43:49 <Deewiant> elliott_: Ctrl+X decrements the number under the cursor
16:43:51 <elliott_> It's like a sticky mega-alt that lasts for one additional keycombo. :p
16:44:05 <ais523> whereas ESC is literally prefix alt
16:44:17 <ais523> alt-X and ESC X have the same meaning in Emacs
16:44:20 <elliott_> ais523: More like alt is combination ESC.
16:44:28 <ais523> and ESC ESC x has the same meaning as ESC alt-X
16:44:41 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Because of terminals.
16:44:44 <ais523> actually, technically it's meta not alt, but most modern Emacsen translate
16:44:47 <elliott_> CakeProphet: ESC didn't used to mean "lol exit".
16:45:00 <ais523> CakeProphet: over telnet, you can't distinguish alt-letter from esc letter except by the timing
16:45:02 <elliott_> Alt+x is, VT[one hundred]-wise, just ESC, followed by alt.
16:45:04 <elliott_> Alt+x is, VT[one hundred]-wise, just ESC, followed by x.
16:45:14 <elliott_> That's an anachronism as far as Emacs goes.
16:45:56 <ais523> elliott_: I know, but it's relevant for /me/
16:46:00 <ais523> because I do a lot of roguelike development
16:46:19 <ais523> and telnet lacks the nuances to get anything other than the vt100 terminal codes, portably at least
16:46:36 <elliott_> I like how that means ESC actually takes some amount of time in vi(m).
16:46:43 <CakeProphet> I used to work on MUD servers back in the day (read: like 2 years ago)
16:46:45 <elliott_> Because it's waiting to see if you'll send cursor-control bytes.
16:46:55 <elliott_> (OK, some amount = imperceptable, but still.)
16:47:37 <ais523> CakeProphet: it isn't my server, but it's my NetHack fork: telnet acehack.rawrnix.com
16:47:52 <ais523> still a bit buggy atm, although it's in beta not alpha
16:47:59 <CakeProphet> ... -uses his MUD client instead of telnet-
16:48:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: After you've (in panic) managed to accidentally modify your file, the ":quit" tip isn't really enough. (Admittedly :q then says "add ! to override", but it doesn't tell where to "add" that, and if you then type plain ! you're likely to get real confused + accidentally run a shell command too.)
16:48:32 <elliott_> vi was created in an attempt to trick emacs users into removing all their files
16:49:17 <CakeProphet> is there anything in emacs that REQUIRES the use of a mouse?
16:49:32 <CakeProphet> I notice that the "open file" option has no key combination next to it.
16:49:51 <elliott_> Nobody uses the toolbar or menu.
16:50:11 <elliott_> (Now ais523 will say he does, just to prove me wrong, because he uses Emacs in the silliest way possible.)
16:50:38 <elliott_> CakeProphet: You can turn them off in your ~/.emacs.
16:50:53 <CakeProphet> ...I'll keep them while I'm getting the hang of things.
16:51:30 <fizzie> elliott_: I think I've used the menu, though not habitually.
16:51:32 <elliott_> You'll definitely want to put some things in your ~/.emacs soonish, since the defaults are insane in some ways.
16:51:49 <elliott_> For instance, even if you like to indent with four spaces, it'll replace every eight-space sequence with a tab.
16:52:27 <elliott_> Where . is space and = is a tab.
16:52:34 <elliott_> That is, . is a space and eight =s are a tab.
16:52:35 <ais523> elliott_: I use the menu via F10 sometimes, which pops it up in a separate buffer, when I can't remember what a command's called
16:52:45 <ais523> does that count as using the menu in the sense you were referring to?
16:53:10 <ais523> a GUI menu would just take up space, although it took me a while to figure out how to disable it
16:53:43 <CakeProphet> elliott_: yes I'd like to know how to change that behavior immediately. :P
16:54:51 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Do you want to indent with single tabs all the time but show them as some width other than eight, or do you want to indent exclusively with spaces?
16:55:11 <ais523> (custom-set-variables '(indent-tabs-mode nil)) goes to space-exclusive indentation
16:55:12 <elliott_> For the latter, it's (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil).
16:55:17 <CakeProphet> ais523: see I wish MUDs could take advantage of telnet. But there's virtually no support for that kind of thing.
16:55:21 <elliott_> ais523: Useless Use of Custom Award
16:55:28 <elliott_> For the latter, it's (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) AND DEFINITELY NOT WHAT AIS JUST SAID.
16:55:31 <ais523> elliott_: not useless, as that's how I made the setting in the first place
16:55:41 <ais523> the former doesn't exist, as tabs always mean 8
16:56:21 <ais523> elliott_: the other opinion has ruined tabs for everyone
16:56:29 <ais523> as if they don't have a meaning, they're meaningless, and thus can't be used
16:56:39 <elliott_> ais523: Your opinion is not popular as has been established many times.
16:56:48 <elliott_> Stop being a pain by assuming everyone shares it, since you know they don't.
16:56:49 <ais523> elliott_: that doesn't mean it isn't /correct/
16:57:02 <elliott_> I am trying to help CakeProphet configure Emacs.
16:57:14 <elliott_> it's an even stupider flamewar than that
16:57:20 <elliott_> and the only one on ais523's side is ais523
16:57:23 <elliott_> also, he's the only one who ever brings it up
16:57:30 <ais523> elliott_: NetHack source agrees with me
16:57:38 <ais523> as does C-INTERCAL's before I started working on it
16:57:42 <elliott_> ais523: If you had just said "I don't think you should do that", fine. But stating it as a fact when you know many people in here disagree strongly _is trolling_.
16:57:53 <elliott_> I'm not going to reply to any further lines on the matter because that would be feeding the troll.
16:57:53 <Deewiant> As do vi's and emacs's defaults
16:57:55 <ais523> so that's every open source project I've made major contributions to
16:58:04 <ais523> Deewiant: vi's too? I didn't know that
16:58:08 <ais523> (I did know it wrt Emacs)
16:58:34 <CakeProphet> it's been my experience that in modern programming spaces-only is preferred.
16:58:45 <elliott_> Deewiant: vi does not indent with mixed tabs/spaces by default.
16:59:06 <Deewiant> Oh, it only does if you change shiftwidth
16:59:08 <elliott_> It shows tabs as shift-to-next-multiple-of-eight by default but that is not the same thing.
16:59:39 <CakeProphet> alright so which file does this setq go in?
16:59:49 <elliott_> CakeProphet: It's a setq-default, and ~/.emacs.
17:00:00 <ais523> elliott_: and what about this? I did some editing on Nibbles, and it uses two-space indentation, with the following at the top of the file: /* -*- Mode: C; indent-tabs-mode: t; c-basic-offset: 8; tab-width: 8 -*- */
17:00:17 <ais523> admittedly, that specification of the file format completely contradicts the actual /content/ of the file (which uses two-space indentation and never tabs)
17:00:18 <CakeProphet> elliott_: okay. I was just saying setq for brevity.
17:00:21 <elliott_> ais523: Please realise that I am not looking to change your opinion or get into a flamewar because I've done that enough times about this and have realised it's fucking pointless. I am just telling you that expressing it in the blunt way you do that ignores all differing opinions is trolling.
17:00:34 <elliott_> I am not going to respond to any defences of your opinion because that is not what this is about.
17:00:42 <ais523> elliott_: I'm trying to say that as far as I can tell, my opinion is the majority one among open-source code
17:00:49 <elliott_> ais523: It does not matter what your opinion is.
17:00:54 <elliott_> It matters how you're expressing it.
17:01:00 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Right; setq is something subtly different.
17:01:23 <ais523> CakeProphet: the difference is subtle enough that setq will generally normally work, but is nonetheless incorrect
17:01:37 <elliott_> Look at the bottom of the window.
17:04:15 <elliott_> .emacs.d is just zis directory, you know?
17:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Emacs predates your foolish standardised keyboard commands!
17:05:35 <ais523> you can basically use C-w as cut, M-w as copy, C-y as paste
17:05:43 <ais523> the commands have a bit more functionality than that, though
17:05:45 <elliott_> Except selection also works as copy.
17:05:55 <ais523> elliott_: selection with the mouse, that is
17:06:02 <ais523> with the keyboard, it doesn't
17:06:11 <elliott_> CakeProphet: If you're looking for something that acts like it was invented in the 00s or 90s, you're in the wrong place.
17:06:19 <elliott_> Emacs predates just about everything else you're using, get used to it :)
17:06:23 <ais523> it tends to be simplest to use the mouse rather than the keyboard for copying/pasting into and out of Emacs
17:06:41 <CakeProphet> is there any reason I shouldn't change that to C-c, C-x and C-v?
17:06:51 <elliott_> For one, that clashes with everything.
17:06:53 <ais523> C-c and C-x are both prefix commands
17:06:55 <elliott_> For two, they do not behave identically.
17:07:01 <elliott_> There is a cua-mode that uses delays to work out which you mean...
17:07:03 <ais523> C-v wouldn't be much of a clash, because it does the same thing as Page Down
17:07:08 <elliott_> And two, like I said: they do not act identically.
17:07:18 <elliott_> ais523: C-v is a lot more convenient to press than page down.
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17:07:46 <ais523> Emacs in general doesn't assume that you've got any keys on your keyboard but letters/numbers/punctuation, control, and esc
17:08:03 <ais523> although it can make use of them if you happen to have them
17:08:23 <ais523> technically speaking you can even get by without a return/enter key
17:08:53 <ais523> although return is normally more convenient than C-q C-j (C-j does almost but not quite the same thing)
17:09:14 <CakeProphet> hmm, interesting c-x c-arrow scrolls through buffers.
17:09:33 <ais523> yep, what it does is probably better than regular return
17:09:50 <ais523> but my fingers are trained to press tab-return instead, which is almost the same as control-j
17:11:04 <CakeProphet> but yeah I've got a pretty innate return-tab reflex.
17:11:04 <ais523> elliott_: nope, I fix the indentation just before moving onto the next line
17:11:10 <ais523> which comes to the same thing
17:11:28 <ais523> sometimes tab-return-tab or return-tab, but many major modes automatically do a tab after a return anyway
17:11:46 <elliott_> CakeProphet: except you only hit tab once, with emacs
17:13:08 -!- ralc has joined.
17:13:16 <elliott_> Hmm, what kind of editor has tab as "indent all the way" but doesn't automatically indent on enter?
17:13:47 <CakeProphet> er, gedit uses automatic indenting. So when I hit enter it's automatically at the same indent level as the last line
17:13:49 <ais523> elliott_: Kate doesn't by default, but it has text in its options dialog telling you how to set it up like that
17:13:53 <CakeProphet> and when I need to indent one more level I just press tab once...
17:13:56 <ais523> CakeProphet: that's not quite the same
17:14:02 <ais523> that's the minimum needed for an editor to be sane
17:14:09 <ais523> but it's not nearly as good as it could be
17:14:13 <elliott_> <CakeProphet> er, gedit uses automatic indenting. So when I hit enter it's automatically at the same indent level as the last line
17:14:18 <elliott_> Enter goes to column one in emacs.
17:14:23 <elliott_> Then Tab indents all the way to the current indentation level.
17:14:24 <ais523> I find Notepad unusable precisely because of missing that feature
17:14:30 <elliott_> Tab just reindents the current line.
17:14:31 <ais523> or any way to simulate it
17:14:39 -!- augur has joined.
17:14:40 <elliott_> So if you type enter, tab, }, then tab, it'd move it left.
17:14:46 <ais523> elliott_: not necessarily; Tab reindents the current line in modes where that can be sensibly calculated
17:15:00 <ais523> in modes like Python or Haskell where there's often more than one possibility that would make sense, it cycles
17:15:03 -!- Gregor has set topic: SIN PARTY SATURDAY | GAY ORGY ALL NIGHT LONG | GLUTTONOUS FEAST | PROBABLY MURDER IF THERE'S TIME | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:15:24 <ais523> and in text-mode or others which don't have systems like that, it just moves to the next plausible tab stop
17:15:29 <ais523> Gregor: I don't really like that topic
17:15:29 <CakeProphet> elliott_: is the tab before the } even necessary?
17:15:36 <ais523> it isn't interesting, and it isn't funny either
17:15:48 <Gregor> ais523: You're unaware of the rapture on the 21st? :P
17:15:50 <ais523> CakeProphet: as an option, defaulting to on, } contains an auto-reindent just like tab does
17:15:59 <ais523> Gregor: it still doesn't make it particularly funny
17:16:08 <elliott_> CakeProphet: But I usually use C-j instead of enter/tab all the time.
17:16:13 <CakeProphet> so tab is just a "magically tab the right way" button?
17:16:17 <Gregor> ais523: Pfff, have fun being raptured like a loser then.
17:16:23 <elliott_> Yes. Except if you're coding Python.
17:16:24 -!- ais523 has set topic: Topical discussion on the best way to reinforce ceilings | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:16:28 <ais523> Gregor: that's a much simpler method
17:16:34 <CakeProphet> elliott_: and then it does what I'm familiar with?
17:16:34 <elliott_> Then it cycles through all possible indentations -- oh, blah blah blah
17:16:38 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Just use C-j instead of enter.
17:16:44 <elliott_> It'll make life a lot easier for you.
17:17:15 <ais523> elliott_: my favourite example of Emacsisms is VHDL-mode, which starts a wizard whenever you type a keywords
17:17:23 <ais523> if you've ever used VHDL, you'll understand why
17:17:29 <CakeProphet> eh, it'll take quite a bit of time to get used to. I've already got like one hundred other things to get used to if I want to get comfortable with emacs.
17:17:42 <ralc> do you ever log off elliott_ ?
17:17:44 <ais523> Emacs is not a fast editor to learn
17:17:46 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Seriously, C-j is a lot easier to get used to than hitting tab all the time or whatever.
17:18:37 <Gregor> ralc: Dude, elliott_ is a bot.
17:19:03 <elliott_> CakeProphet: What "regular tab key"?
17:19:05 <ais523> I think all it does is listen to conversation by the actual elliott and relay back and forth
17:19:10 <elliott_> Emacs is an auto-indenting editor.
17:19:20 <ais523> CakeProphet: M-x tab-to-tab-stop, if you really happen to need it for whatever reason
17:19:22 <elliott_> The need to insert a literal tab character ever is... zero.
17:19:25 <ralc> Gregor, yeah i was starting to suspect that
17:19:31 <ais523> it's rare that you do, though
17:19:40 <ralc> every time i come to this channel elliott_ is going on about something
17:19:44 <ais523> or C-q C-h if you need a literal tab character for whatever reason
17:19:54 <ais523> (say in a string constant in Underload)
17:20:08 <elliott_> ralc: Yes, I do indeed talk a lot when others are talking.
17:20:14 <elliott_> Sometimes this is referred to as conversation.
17:20:20 <CakeProphet> what the hell, you scroll the help buffer with space and delete?
17:20:28 <elliott_> ais523: Or C-q <TAB> if you want a literal tab...
17:20:35 <elliott_> CakeProphet: No, you scroll the help help with space and delete.
17:20:41 <elliott_> This is because the help help is a freaky transient buffer thing.
17:20:46 <ralc> hehe it wasn't meant as a bad thing, you keep the channel active like a 500+ channel ^^
17:20:48 <elliott_> You're only going to need to do it once in your life, so :P
17:20:51 <ais523> elliott_: well, C-h is a literal tab, in theory the tab button might be bound to something else
17:21:16 <ais523> elliott_: I've done it more than once, I don't use C-h all that often so sometimes I need documentation for it
17:21:25 <elliott_> ralc: I'm actually like five people working in tandem, true story.
17:21:26 <CakeProphet> elliott_: perhaps you memorize things faster than me. I think I'll be referring to it a lot for a while.
17:21:33 <elliott_> God dammit you already responded to that message elliott three.
17:21:42 <elliott_> Shut the fuck up, elliott one.
17:21:49 <elliott_> Hey, I was here before you. I could change the password right now.
17:22:10 -!- elliott_ has left ("oAISJDflkhfgjf").
17:22:35 <ralc> whatever i have started, i'm so sorry :D
17:23:48 <CakeProphet> oh but hey, C-h C-m gives me information on how to order printed Emacs manuals. awesome!!
17:24:02 <ais523> C-h a and C-h c are probably the most useful in practice
17:24:35 -!- elliott_ has joined.
17:24:40 <elliott_> Elliott One is no longer with us.
17:24:46 <elliott_> Funeral service after the rapture.
17:24:50 <elliott_> Normal service will now continue.
17:26:14 <ais523> most buffer manipulation commands don't have a C- on their second key
17:26:57 <CakeProphet> oh nevermind, that's apparently not what I wanted. I want to get rid of the second pane that appeared after I used C-h ? and pressed some buttons that turned it into a non-transient thing....
17:28:48 <CakeProphet> staring at my emacs window stupidly seems like a better solution...
17:28:51 <ais523> CakeProphet: C-x 0 removes a pane, or C-x 1 removes all panes but the current one
17:29:06 <ais523> buffers and panes exist more or less independently, except that each pane only shows one buffer at a time
17:29:34 <ais523> generally, you just let buffers accumulate rather than actually killing them, but just show the ones you're using at the moment onscreen
17:29:39 <CakeProphet> is there like, a systematic way I can learn about all of these commands? Like, are they grouped in any kind of way in the help?
17:29:54 <ais523> there's a tutorial somewhere, but I'm not sure how useful it would be
17:30:00 <elliott_> <ais523> generally, you just let buffers accumulate rather than actually killing them, but just show the ones you're using at the moment onscreen
17:30:15 <elliott_> I think rarely killing buffers is idiosyncratic
17:30:45 <ais523> elliott_: well, you have garbage collection sweeps now and again, that's what M-x kill-some-buffers is for
17:30:53 <ais523> but I generally have one Emacs session per project
17:31:08 <ais523> so normally it's rare to kill buffers as irrelevant, unless they're things like compilation output
17:47:28 <CakeProphet> oh hey c-h c-h does the same thing as c-h ?
17:53:00 <elliott_> 01:24:09: <GregorR> How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy!
17:56:13 -!- Vorpal has joined.
18:11:13 <Gregor> `addquote <GregorR> How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! <CakeProphet> I have the weirdest boner right now.
18:11:14 <HackEgo> 425) <GregorR> How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! <CakeProphet> I have the weirdest boner right now.
18:11:31 <Gregor> That's right, elliott_ gets no credit.
18:11:56 <elliott_> But you used two spaces to separate messages so I'll allow it.
18:17:13 <CakeProphet> my brain hurts. too much emacs documentation.
18:17:36 <CakeProphet> I'm already reading about mark rings, search rings, and registers.
18:17:56 <fizzie> They are "windows", not "panes". (And what you might call a "window" elsewhere is a "frame" instead.)
18:27:28 -!- ajf|offline has changed nick to ajf.
18:32:51 <elliott_> fizzie: you're a window in the ass
18:44:38 <Gregor> fizzie: What context is this?
18:44:56 <Gregor> In US vernacular, the whole contraption is a window, and it consists of a frame and one or more panes.
18:45:10 <Gregor> (More usually called "windowpanes")
18:45:33 <fizzie> Gregor: The context of Emacs.
18:45:53 <Gregor> I was thinking the real world ;P
18:46:52 <elliott_> In Finland, they look out of frames (composed of multiple windows).
18:49:37 <elliott_> Things that sad me: In Scheme, (min) is invalid, rather than equal to positive infinity.
18:49:41 <elliott_> (Similarly for (max) and negative infinity.)
18:55:24 <Sgeo> Blah, what's the thing to make ratios in Scheme? It isn't /
18:55:38 <Sgeo> Oh, maybe it's just Chicken Scheme
18:55:52 <Sgeo> Scheme, but Chicken Scheme
18:55:55 <elliott_> Have you changed languages AGAIN in the past day?
18:56:22 <ais523> elliott_: I change languages a lot, but I'm not looking for a One True Language because I doubt it exists
18:56:33 <ais523> I'm just looking to either use something appropriate for programming, or to have fun
18:56:57 <elliott_> ais523: There is a reason I am talking to Sgeo, and not you.
18:57:03 <elliott_> Obviously my statements don't apply to you.
18:57:19 <ais523> elliott_: it's more a case of, if your statements aren't generally applicable they're less convincing
18:57:26 <ais523> as it's a case of "why does that argument apply to me but not him"?
18:57:39 <fizzie> Sgeo: Chicken's "default" numeric tower is just machine-sized integers and floats; there's a (GMP-based) extension that gives it more "Scheme-like" numbers.
18:57:51 <ais523> but I suppose I shouldn't even try to be convinced by arguments that aren't aimed at me
18:57:55 <elliott_> ais523: Thankfully I'm not trying to convince anyone!
18:58:05 <elliott_> You see, the "SIGH" indicates that I am simply despairing.
18:58:15 <elliott_> I have long ago realised that convincing Sgeo of anything is impossible.
18:59:05 <elliott_> Hmm, Timwi appears to have given up the skin tack and is now just acting how to contact Graue, despite having already asked me and receiving a response...
18:59:16 <elliott_> ais523: also, he wants me to unprotect MediaWiki:Common.css
18:59:23 <elliott_> I can't do that, so I feel I should forward it on to you, so you can decide not to do it
18:59:30 <ais523> elliott_: don't worry, I can't do it either
18:59:50 <ais523> the page is protected directly at the PHP level
19:00:18 <ais523> because a mistake editing it can make the entire wiki unworkable
19:00:22 <Vorpal> heh I got "too many unprocessed floats" from tex
19:00:31 <Vorpal> never seen that before
19:00:37 <Vorpal> trivial to fix however, adding a clearpage
19:01:40 <ais523> hmm, what's the equivalent of "typesetting", but for layout on a page rather than fonts?
19:02:02 <elliott_> ais523: Typesetting involves layout too.
19:02:05 <ais523> I don't think that's a real word
19:02:07 <elliott_> But you mean what things like InDesign do, right?
19:02:12 <ais523> is there a word for just the layout portion?
19:02:19 <elliott_> It's... what you do when you're "desktop publishing".
19:02:20 <ais523> and things like TeX as opposed to Metafont
19:02:22 <elliott_> There's a word, but I've forgotten it.
19:02:33 <ais523> yep, I know, and I've forgotten it too
19:02:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, what if you do layout without using a computer
19:02:41 <elliott_> PageMakering. Perfect[exclamation mark]
19:02:51 <elliott_> Vorpal: Like I said, it's what you do when you're desktop publishing.
19:02:52 <Vorpal> what happened to PageMaker?
19:03:23 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm. But doesn't desktop publishing involve a computer
19:03:27 <elliott_> In 2004, Adobe announced that development for Adobe PageMaker had ceased but that Adobe would continue to sell and support it. InDesign was presented as the successor product.[11] Upgrades from PageMaker to InDesign 2.0 and (after the release of InDesign CS) a "PageMaker Plug-in Pack" were offered, containing PageMaker-specific features and help topics, complimentary Myriad Pro fonts and templates.
19:03:41 <elliott_> Vorpal: What I said is in no way implying that desktop publishing is the ONLY way to do that thing.
19:03:50 <Vorpal> elliott_, what about that other one, Quark Express or something?
19:03:59 <Vorpal> I don't think it was Quark, Qark maybe?
19:04:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, is that one dead?
19:04:22 <elliott_> ais523: I think it's just "layout [creation/etc.]"
19:04:30 <elliott_> Vorpal: http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=quark+express&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
19:04:42 <pikhq_> Well, that was freakish and bizarre.
19:04:56 <pikhq_> I did not finish my linear algebra homework. *But*, I got an almost-perfect grade on it.
19:05:04 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_layout seems to be talking about the thing, but doesn't seem to contain any particular word for it.
19:05:19 <elliott_> Let's call it "layoutificatifiing".
19:05:22 <pikhq_> I'm not going to complain.
19:05:29 <fizzie> ("deals with the arrangement and style treatment of elements (content) on a page".)
19:06:03 <Vorpal> huh the weird blueish kind-of-category thing in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuarkXPress lists LyX as DTP
19:06:14 <Vorpal> Scribus yes, but not really Lyx
19:06:33 <Vorpal> lyx is just a GUI for working with latex
19:06:40 <pikhq_> Gregor: Oh my dear God, someone actually outdid JSMIPS.
19:06:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes but LaTeX is not listed there
19:06:53 <elliott_> pikhq_: welcome to earlier today
19:06:55 <pikhq_> Gregor: If it weren't Fabrice Bellard, I'd imagine you'd be horribly depressed.
19:06:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, nor is texmacs
19:07:05 <pikhq_> elliott_: Yes, yes, I had a final. Shaddup.
19:07:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: So LaTeX is not really standard DTP.
19:07:23 <Vorpal> elliott_, LyX is not really about layout, it is more about semantics too
19:07:23 <elliott_> As you can't really do much layout at all apart from separately...
19:07:31 <elliott_> Vorpal: Sure, but you can style it more directly than TeXmacs.
19:07:38 <fizzie> LyX officially is WYSIWYM.
19:07:41 <Vorpal> elliott_, well yeah I can insert raw latex
19:07:43 <elliott_> Anyway TeXmacs is less popular, so.
19:08:04 <elliott_> fizzie: Translation: "What you see isn't what you get because our rendering sucks" :-)
19:08:15 <elliott_> TeXmacs is actually quite close to WYSIWYG in a literal sense.
19:08:17 <fizzie> elliott_: No, it's the paradigm!
19:08:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, I mean, the only layout this document I'm writing atm has is a clearpage, and only because latex bugged out on too many unprocessed floats halfway
19:08:35 <elliott_> ais523: " I’m pretty sure ais523 would get tired of that very quickly. I’ll try e-mailing Graue. Thanks! — Timwi 19:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)"
19:08:49 <elliott_> ais523: OK, why on earth would Timwi want to edit the stylesheet on a regular basis?
19:08:51 <Vorpal> <elliott_> fizzie: Translation: "What you see isn't what you get because our rendering sucks" :-) <-- actually that's a feature
19:08:57 <Vorpal> and I quite like it that way
19:09:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, I get a font that works better for the screen there
19:09:16 <Vorpal> and another one that works better for print when I generate the pdf
19:09:23 <Vorpal> so I quite like it this way
19:09:53 <pikhq_> I CAN HAS FINISHED SEMESTER
19:10:16 <Vorpal> pikhq_, err in English semester is the opposite of holidays right?
19:10:32 <Vorpal> because in Swedish semester = long holiday (like summer break).
19:10:40 <ais523> University terms are divided into semesters
19:10:41 <Vorpal> so the English sense always confuse me
19:10:46 <ais523> but yes, in that semesters and holidays don't coexist
19:11:01 <Vorpal> ais523, oh and it can also be that you go on a vacation - "åka på semester"
19:11:08 <pikhq_> Vorpal: In most contexts, a "semester" is a division of the school year.
19:11:17 <ais523> (to add to the confusion, a semester can persist across parts of multiple terms, e.g. at Birmingham University, a semester is one term, plus one week of another term)
19:11:23 <Vorpal> pikhq_, in Sweden it means either long summer break or vacation
19:12:00 <ais523> WYSIWYG is impossible nowadays, because not all printers are identical
19:12:11 <pikhq_> Vorpal: And a long summer break is precisely what a semester isn't in English.
19:12:18 <ais523> and it's even worse if designing for screen
19:12:18 <Vorpal> ais523, oh right we have "läsperioder" (study periods, though literally "readingperiods"), 4 per year. One ends one week after xmas holidays end yes
19:12:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "desktop publishing software" template-portal-whatever-those-are-called is a bit weird anyway; they list "PDF-XChange", which is primarily just a PDF viewer, with some kludgy support for changing/adding text and splanting in new images on top of existing content.
19:12:34 <pikhq_> ais523: A reasonable approximation is *doable*, though.
19:12:38 <ais523> Vorpal: that sounds much like UK "semester", though
19:12:48 <ais523> on screen, it's a really bad idea
19:12:55 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Vorpal: And a long summer break is precisely what a semester isn't in English. <-- exactly, that utterly confuses me
19:13:01 <elliott_> ais523: PNGs are pretty consistent
19:13:02 <ais523> as everyone who does that ends up with something that doesn't reflow and normally has a horizontal scrollbar
19:13:06 <fizzie> (You can't even delete/move/insert pages without buying the PRO version.)
19:13:11 <elliott_> ais523: that only applies to HTML
19:13:14 <pikhq_> On screen, either accept that you're displaying an imitation of paper on screen, or give up.
19:13:29 <ais523> elliott_: PNGs aren't exactly designing for screen
19:13:41 <ais523> and if they don't have the same res as the screen, they may well need a horizontal scrollbar too
19:13:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, is "splanting" a real word?
19:13:45 <ais523> reflowing is generally just /better/
19:14:03 <Vorpal> <elliott_> ais523: PNGs are pretty consistent <-- not without an ICC profile
19:14:17 <pikhq_> Vorpal: He did specify "modulo gamma".
19:14:18 <CakeProphet> it seems like most of the C- keys in emacs are kind of.. archaic.
19:14:43 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: Well, emacs is a fairly archaic editor.
19:14:56 <Vorpal> pikhq_, ICC is more than just plain gamma value. It contains primaries and so on too
19:15:07 <CakeProphet> and then a lot of the useful stuff is tucked away in C-x
19:15:38 <ais523> the C- keys are mostly stuff you use all the time if you don't have arrow or navigation keys on your keyboards
19:15:56 <ais523> although, say, C-a is much easier to press than Home on a typical keyboard, with the result that I use it in all sorts of programs nowadays
19:16:11 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, they didn't use to I guess
19:16:20 <ais523> I do, but they're tiny and stuck round the edges of my laptop, as there isn't really room for them
19:16:23 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: Those existing is a relatively modern thing.
19:16:25 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, anyway you can customise key bindings fairly easily in your ~/.emacs
19:16:25 <ais523> and a pain to find in the dark
19:16:26 <CakeProphet> that's what I mean, like... why not change that instead of keeping it that way?
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19:16:36 <pikhq_> vi was *also* designed with that in mind.
19:17:12 <ais523> vi and Emacs aren't too different; the major difference is that vi Esc and i map to Emacs hold ctrl and release ctrl
19:17:20 <ais523> and ofc all the other keybindings are different too
19:17:24 <ais523> but that's the major difference in principle
19:17:45 <pikhq_> ais523: Also, Emacs is pretty universally extensible.
19:18:00 <Vorpal> ais523, also vi isn't really scriptable. Sure vim is, but vi is not vim
19:18:07 <pikhq_> Even TECO Emacs was extensible.
19:18:18 <ais523> pikhq_: sometimes that's a bad thing; I was once given a CGI script written in elisp
19:18:31 <pikhq_> ais523: It's both an advantage and a disadvantage.
19:18:35 <Sgeo> When using emacs on a terminal over ssh, I use C-e instead of End because end doesn't work
19:18:38 <ais523> in the end, I rewrote it as a standalone program in Perl, given that it had no reason to be written in elisp and no reason to be a CGI script
19:18:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, uh. Presumably your terminal emulator locally sucks then
19:18:59 <Vorpal> I used end key in various places over ssh
19:19:03 <ais523> worse still, it required manual intervention to run properly
19:19:09 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Either that or the remote end's termcap sucks.
19:19:11 <ais523> as in, run the script, change the script, run the script, change the script, etc
19:19:43 <ais523> DJGPP Emacs seems to parse End as meaning M-> rather than C-e
19:19:47 <ais523> as in, end of document, not end of line
19:19:52 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, isn't that the normal way to use it?
19:19:57 <ais523> CakeProphet: you can, emacs -nw
19:20:18 <ais523> or it loads like that by default if it doesn't have access to anything that would let it draw a window, as is commonly the case over telnet or ssh without -X
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19:20:36 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, the X support is fairly recent. Not more than a few decades old
19:20:51 <ais523> `addquote <Vorpal> CakeProphet, the X support is fairly recent. Not more than a few decades old
19:20:53 <HackEgo> 426) <Vorpal> CakeProphet, the X support is fairly recent. Not more than a few decades old
19:21:05 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: Emacs is 35 years old.
19:21:07 <Vorpal> ais523, okay yeah that was slightly silly
19:21:19 <Vorpal> pikhq_, ooh anniversary
19:21:22 <ais523> pikhq_: Emacs generally, or GNU Emacs?
19:21:28 <Deewiant> Given that X11 is only a little more than two decades old...
19:21:36 <fizzie> ais523: No, it loads like that if it doesn't have access to anything that would let it draw a graphical frame. When in Emacs, speak as the... eumuchs do?
19:21:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yes, newfangled stuff
19:21:50 <CakeProphet> I think I interpret "recent" to be a completely different thing in the context of computing.
19:21:54 <ais523> fizzie: but you're not /in/ Emacs, as you're loading it
19:21:59 <pikhq_> ais523: That's counting from the first functioning TECO Emacs.
19:22:03 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Sure, but saying "X support is fairly recent" should imply it's recent compared to X :-P
19:22:07 <fizzie> ais523: But it's Emacs that's doing the loading-of-itself.
19:22:29 <CakeProphet> but hey, now that I know I can use emacs in telnet, I no longer have an excuse to use pico. :)
19:22:31 <pikhq_> *GNU* Emacs is 26 years old.
19:22:47 <ais523> hmm, I'm surprised that it was gnuised after only 9 years
19:22:48 <Vorpal> pikhq_, so older than X?
19:22:55 <ais523> although it was pretty much the first thing GNU did
19:23:24 <CakeProphet> so do you guys have any recommendations for my .emacs?
19:23:40 <fizzie> I recommend a file, as opposed to, say, a pipe.
19:23:43 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The X Windowing System is older by a couple of years.
19:23:47 <Vorpal> interesting thought experiment. Figure out what will happen to various organisations when their leading figure retires.
19:23:58 <Vorpal> For example: What will happen to GNU when RMS retires or dies.
19:23:58 <pikhq_> Vorpal: X11 is younger by a year.
19:24:14 <ais523> CakeProphet: (load-file "/home/ais523/esoteric/intercal/ick-0.27/etc/intercal.el") (load-file "/home/ais523/esoteric/esolangs.el") (esolangs-recognize-extensions)
19:24:18 <Vorpal> I think it will survive probably. Apple without Steve Jobs is less certain
19:24:28 <Vorpal> Linux without Linus Torvalds? Chaos or?
19:24:38 <Vorpal> who would have the final word and so on
19:24:41 <pikhq_> GNU without RMS? Probably not a hell of a lot different.
19:24:44 <ais523> CakeProphet: note that you'll either have to create a user account for me on your computer, or else change the paths
19:24:59 <fizzie> You can have a directory in /home without an account.
19:25:07 <Vorpal> pikhq_, the other two examples would be more interesting
19:25:12 <CakeProphet> ais523: do you know where I can get those files?
19:25:18 <ais523> more seriously, (global-font-lock-mode 1) is a nice option, as is (setq visible-bell t)
19:25:28 <ais523> CakeProphet: they were on pastebin.ca, which is down now
19:25:34 <ais523> intercal.el should be easy enough to find, at least
19:25:57 <Vorpal> pikhq_, so what about Apple without Jobs or Linux without Torvals?
19:26:26 <ais523> http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/blobs/raw/6a0c3bba084cf42972f43dcd2f92b83f3e81c3ae/intercal.el
19:26:36 <pikhq_> Linux without Torvalds would probably devolve unto the maintainer of one of the major subsystems.
19:26:47 <pikhq_> Apple without Jobs would do about as well as Apple did without Jobs in the 90s.
19:26:55 <pikhq_> That is to say, "be totally fucked".
19:26:55 <Vorpal> pikhq_, you mean badly?
19:27:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, further ones: Perl without Larry Wall, Python without Guido van Rossum (spelling?), OpenBSD without Theo de Radt (spelling?)
19:27:18 <fizzie> Heh: "Version 13, the first public release, was made on March 20, 1985. The first widely distributed version of GNU Emacs was 15.34, which appeared later in 1985. Versions 2 to 12 never existed. Earlier versions of GNU Emacs had been numbered "1.x.x", but sometime after version 1.12 the decision was made to drop the "1", as it was thought the major number would never change."
19:27:18 <CakeProphet> ais523: more interested in the esolangs one, actually. but I'll add this one too.
19:27:32 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Fucked, fucked, fucked, IMO.
19:27:36 <ais523> the esolangs one is a little unfinished, let me sprunge it
19:28:11 <Vorpal> pikhq_, freebsd has a board of trustees or something like that right?
19:28:21 <pikhq_> Yeah, FreeBSD doesn't do the benevolent dictator bit.
19:28:30 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what about NetBSD?
19:28:35 <Vorpal> wait, it is fucked already
19:28:42 <pikhq_> Linux is one of the few projects with a benevolent dictator with a lot of structure *besides* that, making filling that gap pretty easy.
19:29:07 <CakeProphet> I see Perl existing with Larry Wall in its current state, since it's a pretty useful language. However, new incarnations of Perl may be fucked... since that's basically what is happening to Perl 6.
19:29:14 <pikhq_> NetBSD has a Board of Directors.
19:29:51 <Vorpal> what other projects risk dying?
19:30:22 <Vorpal> hm... I think they would survive quite the same
19:30:39 <Vorpal> what about Ubuntu without Mark Shuttleworth (sp?)
19:30:54 <Vorpal> though in that case it is lack of money
19:30:59 <CakeProphet> What are you talking about? Jimmy Wales makes every single edit to Wikipedia. He even pretends to be multiple users on talk pages.
19:31:02 <pikhq_> Ubuntu without Mark Shuttleworth would change drastically. He bankrolls the whole thing.
19:31:37 <CakeProphet> ...so, Ubuntu users, do you guys actually use the new Unity crap?
19:31:53 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, I use 10.04. Long term support.
19:31:55 <ais523> CakeProphet: I haven't upgraded to a version that has it
19:32:05 <pikhq_> Slackware would literally stop without Volkerding.
19:32:18 <Vorpal> pikhq_, interesting family name
19:32:18 <pikhq_> He isn't the benevolent dictator, he is the sole developer.
19:32:29 <CakeProphet> the latest release has this horrid new Mac-like interface. Kill it when you encounter it.
19:32:32 <Vorpal> pikhq_, right, I guess no one else would step up
19:33:19 <pikhq_> Though if someone actually *did* step up, it'd keep going just fine. Slackware's set up such that it only really takes a single person to manage it.
19:33:46 <Vorpal> pikhq_, that must be a smart setup, how does it work?
19:34:19 <fizzie> How about Mozilla without the lizard?
19:34:42 <Vorpal> that is a big jump in version number
19:35:06 <fizzie> (I presume they have some sort of Allosaurus-style setup at Mozilla.)
19:35:11 <Vorpal> LyX 1.6.10 released. (May 9, 2011)
19:35:11 <Vorpal> LyX 2.0.0 released. (May 8, 2011)
19:35:23 <Vorpal> take stable support seriously
19:35:48 <Vorpal> kind of like distros in a bit
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19:36:19 <pikhq_> It's actually just a very, very simple UNIXy setup. Each package has a shell script that builds it and creates a .txz. All packages are unpatched.
19:36:39 <pikhq_> Most of the time, to make a new release he just needs to bump versions, build, test, release.
19:36:51 <Vorpal> pikhq_, no patches anywhere? Really hm
19:36:59 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Sorry, not "all".
19:37:16 <Vorpal> pikhq_, some stuff will simply need patching
19:37:28 <Vorpal> but yeah I remember slackware didn't patch icons and so on
19:37:32 <Vorpal> nor does arch of course
19:38:03 <Vorpal> http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/NewInLyX20/#advsearch <-- this looks quite interesting
19:38:11 <pikhq_> It's not so much "clever" as it is "supremely lazy".
19:38:29 <Vorpal> serching with regexp and formatting and what not
19:38:40 <Vorpal> ooh and FINALLY spell check on the fly
19:39:52 <fizzie> Based on the new-feature overview, LyX 2.0 doesn't sound *that* much like a radical change. (But of course they have to bump up the major version number at some point, and certainly there's quite a large number of them small-ish changes.)
19:40:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think there are internal architectural changes too
19:41:25 <ais523> CakeProphet: http://sprunge.us/AQhd is esolangs.el (usable but still unfinished)
19:41:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, of course since iirc xetex doesn't support microtyping yet I think I'll stick with pdflatex for the time being
19:47:56 -!- elliott_ has joined.
19:48:04 <elliott_> <ais523> although, say, C-a is much easier to press than Home on a typical keyboard, with the result that I use it in all sorts of programs nowadays
19:48:23 <elliott_> ais523: ok, I'm now convinced that Timwi doesn't know what minor edits are for
19:48:25 <elliott_> # (diff) (hist) . . m Talk:Main Page; 19:08 . . (+170) . . Timwi (Talk | contribs)
19:48:49 <elliott_> CakeProphet: what did he answer?
19:48:59 <ais523> quintopia: pretty much no chord uses both hands for me
19:49:12 <ais523> I type pretty much any single chord one-handed unless it's physically impossible
19:49:32 <ais523> using both hands only for the purpose of typing faster as each can cover a different area of the keyboard
19:49:49 <elliott_> how can you type C-j like that?
19:49:52 <coppro> I have gotten into the habit of using specific keys
19:50:05 <quintopia> ais523: i need my chords to be reasonable on both a netbook keyboard and a regular keyboard, so two-handed chords are frequently requiring of less contortion
19:50:10 <coppro> left control, right shift, left alt (although my right alt is actually an alt-gr, so that's necessarily)
19:50:33 <elliott_> this thing doesn't even have right control
19:51:05 <coppro> quintopia: my right alt is technically induces dead keys rather than being compose
19:51:08 <elliott_> 19:16:26: <CakeProphet> that's what I mean, like... why not change that instead of keeping it that way?
19:51:08 <coppro> but it's the same principle
19:51:11 <elliott_> and break people's muscle memory?
19:51:13 <CakeProphet> I don't type normally so I can't do right-handed combinations very well. I have to use both hands for those.
19:51:27 <coppro> Are you a hunt-and-pecker?
19:51:27 <elliott_> you're _meant_ to use both hands to chord
19:51:44 <elliott_> 19:17:12: <ais523> vi and Emacs aren't too different; the major difference is that vi Esc and i map to Emacs hold ctrl and release ctrl
19:51:48 <CakeProphet> elliott_: they're breaking muscle memory either way, because I have tons of muscle memory from every other text editor I've encountered that doesn't apply to emacs.
19:51:50 <elliott_> except that, using vi like that is a misuse
19:52:03 <elliott_> CakeProphet: You're not an Emacs user (before now), so they have no responsibility to you as far as muscle memory goes.
19:52:08 <ais523> elliott_: actually, no it isn't
19:52:12 <elliott_> Annoying your users is generally a bad idea.
19:52:13 <CakeProphet> coppro: not really. I just memorize how to type words, pretty much
19:52:18 <elliott_> ais523: Yes it is, in the sense that it's inefficient and vi users will laugh at you.
19:52:21 <ais523> you don't go into insert mode when you're moving the cursor around, etc
19:52:29 <ais523> just like you don't generally let go of control when you're moving the cursor around
19:52:31 <CakeProphet> I type each word a partiulcar way. I mainly stick to my index and middle finger while typing but I keep pretty good typing speeds.
19:53:59 <elliott_> 19:19:41: <CakeProphet> Sgeo: you can use emacs in a terminal?
19:54:00 <elliott_> 19:19:52: <Vorpal> CakeProphet, isn't that the normal way to use it?
19:54:04 <CakeProphet> actually re-typing partiulcar requires a little more thought and slows down my typing speed.
19:54:12 <elliott_> (it's a perfectly accepted way but by no means the most common)
19:54:18 <elliott_> (at least only counting local use)
19:55:24 * elliott_ reads Vorpal seriously wonder whether Apple will survive without Steve Jobs.
19:55:39 <elliott_> Yes, a tremendously profitable and popular company with an immense brand identity will collapse because its CEO dies.
19:55:52 <elliott_> The shareholders will just say "well, guess that's over then" go home.
19:56:24 <elliott_> 19:25:28: <ais523> CakeProphet: they were on pastebin.ca, which is down now
19:56:27 <ais523> elliott_: it'll probably lose a huge chunk of its stock price if Jobs leave, not because the company is necessarily doomed but because shareholders are ridiculous
19:56:30 <ais523> elliott_: it's back up again?
19:56:35 * CakeProphet reads elliott comment and dissect on everything that was said recently and not-so-recently.
19:57:14 <elliott_> 19:27:14: <Vorpal> pikhq_, further ones: Perl without Larry Wall, Python without Guido van Rossum (spelling?), OpenBSD without Theo de Radt (spelling?)
19:57:21 <ais523> the other slepp.ca sites seem down, though
19:57:25 <Vorpal> http://wiki.lyx.org/uploads/LyX/NewInLyX20/themes.png <-- a lot of the icons in the new themes don't really work well
19:57:29 <elliott_> Python will survive, it's too boring to die
19:57:37 <elliott_> they'll just add more bearocracy
19:57:54 <elliott_> OpenBSD might die, but OpenSSH won't
19:58:02 <elliott_> Perl won't die because... corporations, dude
19:58:11 <elliott_> ActiveState aren't going to let Perl di
19:58:15 <elliott_> because they make money off it
19:58:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, you know what happened to Apple during the 90s
19:58:28 <elliott_> Same goes for every company with software written in Perl, just indirectly
19:58:55 <elliott_> Vorpal: It wasn't so much that Jobs was a genius as whoeveritwas was an idiot.
20:00:11 <elliott_> 19:28:42: <pikhq_> Linux is one of the few projects with a benevolent dictator with a lot of structure *besides* that, making filling that gap pretty easy.
20:00:17 <elliott_> Linux development has a lot of structure?
20:00:36 <ais523> I think part of the reason git was invented was so that its development process could work
20:00:50 <ais523> it has a lot of people with their own repos accepting certain sorts of patches, which Linus pulls from and does the final approval
20:01:01 <elliott_> Yes, but that's hardly structure.
20:01:06 <elliott_> That's more lack of structure.
20:01:17 <elliott_> A bunch of people do things and then Linus (the dictator) decides to pull them in.
20:01:28 <ais523> elliott_: compare it to, say, the NetHack devteam, or C-INTERCAL's development
20:01:30 <elliott_> And also, some people get flamed less and flame more on the mailing list, because they've been there a long time.
20:01:33 <ais523> Linus isn't pulling patches from the general public
20:01:38 <Vorpal> ais523, the latter is one person?
20:01:42 <ais523> he's pulling it from other people who pull patches from other people
20:01:46 <ais523> Vorpal: technically two, nowadays
20:01:48 <elliott_> Vorpal: It's one person and one idiot. :P
20:01:53 <elliott_> ais523: No, but he's not pulling patches from a preset group of people.
20:02:04 <elliott_> ais523: What you're describing to me is a /lack/ of structure.
20:02:06 <ais523> and those are pulling from preset groups too
20:02:12 <elliott_> ais523: It's not /dev/random, but there's no hierarchy.
20:02:20 <elliott_> It's all basically the whim of Linus in the end.
20:02:33 <elliott_> I don't see how Linux would survive with its current structure if Linus died or stepped down.
20:02:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, an amazingly good whim so far
20:02:53 <elliott_> Either someone else would step up -- very unlikely, it's a lot of work etc.
20:03:24 <elliott_> (an organisation that exists to give Torvalds a paycheck)
20:03:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, Allan Cox or someone like that could step up.
20:03:51 <pikhq_> elliott_: The subsystem maintainers actually have a large portion of the workload. I suspect that one of them would reasonably step up, and it'd only be a question of which one.
20:04:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: I dunno about that -- Wikipedia'd for THE UPPER HAND IN THE ARGUMENT -- "On 28 July 2009, Cox walked away from the TTY layer, which he still maintained, after receiving criticism from Torvalds.[2][3]"
20:04:10 <elliott_> Doesn't seem like a good dictator ;)
20:04:12 <CakeProphet> elliott_: a sentient AI created by Torvalds could step up.
20:04:18 <ais523> pikhq_: elliott_ doesn't believe there are subsystem maintainers, even though I've tried to tell him at least three times
20:04:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, well okay, Andrew Morton then
20:04:26 <elliott_> ais523: I know there are subsystem maintainers.
20:04:30 <elliott_> (And no, I don't see you telling me that.)
20:04:35 <pikhq_> And, yeah, it has hardly any *formal* structure. Just a lot of informal structure.
20:04:36 <ais523> then why do you keep ignoring me when I say there are?
20:04:42 <elliott_> ais523: Because you haven't been saying that.
20:04:55 <ais523> I said Linus pulls from a set group of people
20:04:57 <elliott_> (You might /think/ you've been saying that.)
20:05:07 <elliott_> ais523: Yep, but that's way too vague to count.
20:05:15 <elliott_> If you were trying to make that point you should have just made it directly...
20:05:24 <CakeProphet> ...I'd say sentient AI is the best hope for the survival of future Linux.
20:05:48 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, what's next? Torvalds brain in a jar?
20:06:05 <elliott_> let's get a spam filter to accept or reject linux patches
20:06:09 <elliott_> based on all of linus' decisions
20:06:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, I kind of doubt that would work well, but it would be an interesting experiment
20:06:38 <CakeProphet> spam filter? What about the Nigerian developers?
20:06:40 <Vorpal> to see how well it coincides
20:06:49 <pikhq_> In essence, Linus is not a major developer on Linux. He's the guy merging in git branches. This structure is not really too hard to maintain with the existence of other people who would be trusted in that same position.
20:06:54 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, he meant bayesian filter
20:06:54 <pikhq_> It's just a matter of selecting one.
20:07:53 <Vorpal> elliott_, also linux wouldn't fail. You said too many depend on Perl. Well even more so for linux
20:07:59 <elliott_> Vorpal: I never said it would fail.
20:08:09 <ais523> elliott_: would you really want Bayes in charge of Linux development, given how it acted in Agora?
20:08:12 <elliott_> I said that it doesn't have the kind of structure that Linus could just disappear and it'd all tick fine with not much of a change.
20:08:21 <elliott_> ais523: Are you suggesting that Bayes acted anything other than wonderfully?
20:08:23 <Vorpal> ais523, ooh tell me about this
20:08:30 <elliott_> Vorpal: Me and comex wrote a bot to play Agora.
20:08:35 <elliott_> It used SpamBayes to vote on proposals.
20:08:40 <elliott_> It played the AAA with brute-force.
20:08:51 <elliott_> Agoran Agricultural Association.
20:08:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, also spambayes is "meh"
20:09:00 <elliott_> It played optimally, which saved me the effort of working out how to play myself.
20:09:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: Who cares, it's Python.
20:09:08 <elliott_> That's the important thing. :p
20:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, how can you brute force AAA?
20:09:25 <ais523> Vorpal: they had to take the author names off all the data they fed to it
20:09:33 <ais523> because otherwise it just rejected everything by comex
20:09:35 <elliott_> ais523: Yes; otherwise it did too well.
20:09:49 <elliott_> Vorpal: AAA is gone now and I never understood it, so.
20:10:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: Oh, it also made its own proposals.
20:10:11 <elliott_> Vorpal: With a Markov chain of accepted proposals.
20:10:22 <elliott_> I... don't think one ever got adopted.
20:10:34 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:10:39 <elliott_> god bayes was awesome, makes me wish partnerships still existed
20:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway how did you decide which ones were ham and which ones were spam when training it
20:10:56 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
20:11:03 <pikhq_> Partnerships were pretty awesome.
20:11:04 <elliott_> Vorpal: which ones passed and which ones failed
20:11:17 <ais523> Vorpal: http://agora-notary.wikidot.com/the-agoran-agricultural-association
20:11:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, do you gain something from voting for passing ones?
20:11:58 <elliott_> Vorpal: Bayes was three years ago.
20:12:06 <elliott_> A lot has changed; your question has no concrete answer.
20:12:13 <Vorpal> "If this contract is a contest, the SoA is its Contestmaster." <-- wat
20:12:24 <elliott_> Vorpal: Contracts had to be voted in as contests.
20:12:24 <ais523> elliott_: I disliked it too
20:12:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, did you gain*
20:12:32 <ais523> I only tolerated it because of a scam I'd been planning for months
20:13:05 <elliott_> ais523: hmm, you started using it after eso-std.org went bust and my report formatter output thusly went offline, right?
20:13:10 <elliott_> It was because someone else got elected
20:13:30 <elliott_> http://nomic.bob-space.com/agoralog.aspx?contract=Notary
20:13:40 <elliott_> good to know the Gigantic Single Point of Failure is still working
20:13:42 <ais523> bob-space is still up?
20:13:45 <elliott_> sure would suck if we still used it
20:13:54 <elliott_> wow, is that server-side VBScript?
20:14:17 <Vorpal> During the voting period of a Proposal, a Farmer CAN once Harvest
20:14:17 <Vorpal> the ID number of that proposal. As soon as possible after doing so,
20:14:17 <Vorpal> the SoA CAN and SHALL award that Farmer 2 y-axis points if the proposal was Ordinary,
20:14:17 <Vorpal> or 4 x-axis points if it was Democratic.
20:14:22 <elliott_> "The Daily Funny is your daily (or weekly, or monthly, depending on how often I update it) dose of humor. I post jokes, funny pictures, hilarious videos, and links to humorous things on the web here. Some of it you may have heard/seen before, but I'm sure you'll find something here to chuckle at. One other note: I try to keep all the humor on the Daily Funny family friendly - no dirty jokes here."
20:14:24 <ais523> and I think it is, C# doesn't use "sub" as a keyword like that
20:14:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, okay you know what, learning dwarffortress is easier :P
20:14:43 <elliott_> top two titles: "Converting the Heathen Bear" "Biblical History of the Internet"
20:14:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, this stuff is pretty nonsense
20:14:59 <elliott_> Vorpal: Ordinary proposals let you vote on them multiple times
20:15:06 <elliott_> points used to be a complex number
20:15:13 <elliott_> and CAN is RFC-jargon imported by Agora
20:15:40 <Vorpal> well yes the RFC stuff I know
20:16:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, actually it is MUST/SHOULD/MAY (plus inverses), I don't seem to remember any CAN
20:16:30 <elliott_> ais523: remember when we told everyone that relying on bobthj's site was a terrible idea?
20:16:41 <Vorpal> elliott_, so you use SHALL/?/CAN?
20:16:50 <elliott_> also, when the entire history of the PBA turned out to be wrong every several weeks because of bugs in my script?
20:16:57 <ais523> elliott_: counterargument: if we were still using it, BobTHJ might have made it work
20:17:05 <elliott_> ais523: did it ever truly work?
20:17:12 <elliott_> anyway, I wasn't saying that because it's down
20:17:43 <elliott_> Vorpal: http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html#rule-2152
20:17:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, why were points complex? They should be quaternions
20:18:30 <elliott_> anyway, I went to effort finding that link, click it :P
20:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, what are they now? Vectors?
20:18:45 <fizzie> According to RFC2119, there's {MUST,REQUIRED,SHALL}, {MUST NOT,SHALL NOT}, {SHOULD,RECOMMENDED}, {SHOULD NOT,NOT RECOMMENDED} and {MAY,OPTIONAL}, where the grouped things mean the same.
20:19:00 <elliott_> Vorpal: no it isn't, you can have a "DEPRECATED action that you MAY but CANNOT do"
20:19:10 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't get why everyone found the AAA so complex, anyway; it's quite simple by nomic standards
20:19:12 <elliott_> which means that, you should feel bad about doing it, and doing it violates no rules, but you simply can't
20:19:22 <ais523> and yet many people didn't put in the effort to read it
20:19:27 <elliott_> ais523: I concluded it was trivial since aaa.py was only about thirty lines
20:19:59 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Vorpal: no it isn't, you can have a "DEPRECATED action that you MAY but CANNOT do" <-- err
20:20:02 <Vorpal> elliott_, I meant the score
20:20:15 <elliott_> Vorpal: well we recently went on an appeal spree after the entire game imploded.
20:20:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway how can you have "DEPRECATED action that you MAY but CANNOT do"
20:20:38 <elliott_> (after ais523 deregistered in a huff because he had to read the Vladivostok Telephone Directory lest he violate the rules)
20:20:57 <elliott_> note that none of them contradict
20:21:14 <Vorpal> <elliott_> (after ais523 deregistered in a huff because he had to read the Vladivostok Telephone Directory lest he violate the rules) <--- ....
20:21:34 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Vorpal: well we recently went on an appeal spree after the entire game imploded. <-- it imploded?
20:21:36 <ais523> Vorpal: it's like... say if you, in the next three seconds, called my mother fat to her face
20:21:43 <ais523> it's not illegal to do that, but it's socially discouraged
20:21:50 <ais523> and yet it's impossible, because you don't live within three seconds of my mother
20:22:04 <Vorpal> ais523, interesting example
20:22:08 <elliott_> <Vorpal> <elliott_> (after ais523 deregistered in a huff because he had to read the Vladivostok Telephone Directory lest he violate the rules) <--- ....
20:22:17 <Vorpal> elliott_, the weirdness :P
20:22:22 <elliott_> `addquote <ais523> Vorpal: it's like... say if you, in the next three seconds, called my mother fat to her face <ais523> it's not illegal to do that, but it's socially discouraged <ais523> and yet it's impossible, because you don't live within three seconds of my mother <Vorpal> ais523, ah... <Vorpal> ais523, interesting example <Vorpal> ais523, is she fat?
20:22:22 <ais523> elliott_: actually it was a ....
20:22:24 <HackEgo> 427) <ais523> Vorpal: it's like... say if you, in the next three seconds, called my mother fat to her face <ais523> it's not illegal to do that, but it's socially discouraged <ais523> and yet it's impossible, because you don't live within three seconds of my mother <Vorpal> ais523, ah... <Vorpal> ais523, interesting example
20:22:32 <elliott_> ais523: no, it was a ..., that formed an entire sentence by itself
20:22:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, I only asked because he mentioned it
20:22:57 <ais523> elliott_: you could remove the repeated <nick> bits
20:23:39 <fizzie> Or replace with <> and assume everyone else assumes it automatically uses the previous nick.
20:24:19 <ais523> fizzie: is that a Perlism?
20:24:32 <HackEgo> 427) <ais523> Vorpal: it's like... say if you, in the next three seconds, called my mother fat to her face <ais523> it's not illegal to do that, but it's socially discouraged <ais523> and yet it's impossible, because you don't live within three seconds of my mother <Vorpal> ais523, ah... <Vorpal> ais523, interesting example
20:24:40 <Vorpal> elliott_, you failed to remove it
20:24:55 <fizzie> ais523: It might be slightly Perlish, since Perl does have the default filehandle <> thing.
20:25:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, you made me think of short-tags in html instead of perl
20:25:27 <ais523> fizzie: I was thinking more of // for repeat last regex
20:25:42 <Vorpal> so we all thought of different things
20:25:59 <Vorpal> `run find . -iname '*quotes*'
20:26:05 <Vorpal> `run find . -iname '*quote*'
20:26:19 <Vorpal> elliott_, I would sed the db if I knew where it was
20:26:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:26:45 <ais523> why not just revert to before the quote was added?
20:31:10 <elliott_> fizzie: Wanna figure out why delquote is broken? :P
20:31:48 <fizzie> No, but someone might make a `unquote command that does "sed -ie '$d' quotes", that might be useful for "okay, forget the last one" sort of operations.
20:31:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/delquote
20:32:00 <elliott_> But but but it's only a few lines.
20:32:13 <elliott_> That unquote thing is a good idea, but it still bugs me that delquote is broken; it worked just recently.
20:32:15 <CakeProphet> ew, perl mode underlines arrays and hashes.
20:32:44 <elliott_> You can make it default for .pl files in your ~/.emacs, but I'm too lazy to remember how.
20:33:16 <CakeProphet> hmmm, the background color is better than the underline I guess.
20:33:27 <CakeProphet> is it just a different theme or is it completely different?
20:33:40 <Vorpal> a mode would be completely different
20:33:48 <elliott_> It's different in that perl-mode sucks and cperl-mode doesn't.
20:33:49 <fizzie> Perl-in-Emacs was a topic not many days ago; both perl-mode and cperl-mode have their own shortcomings.
20:34:07 <elliott_> fizzie: well a perfect perl mode is impossible :)
20:34:18 <CakeProphet> well, in general Perl is a difficult language to accomodate.
20:34:31 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, in general it can't be done
20:34:48 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, perl has TC parsing
20:35:01 <elliott_> Perl is a difficult language to accommodate and stomach.
20:35:15 <CakeProphet> yes, and most syntax highlighting uses things like regex.
20:35:23 <CakeProphet> elliott_: I disagree. I think Perl is a wonderful language.
20:35:34 <elliott_> It's a wonderful, terrible language :)
20:35:42 <elliott_> (I don't hate it for stupid reasons like "it's line noise".)
20:35:52 <elliott_> (Actually I find it kind of adorable, somehow.)
20:36:17 <CakeProphet> I'm surprised that it exists really. It is fairly atypical.
20:36:18 <Vorpal> I personally think it has more syntax than I like
20:36:21 <fizzie> "-- like an incontinent kitten. Endearing, but you don't want it on top of you."
20:36:34 <Vorpal> haskell has a bit too much syntax as well, but is otherwise awesome
20:37:11 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, I think lisp is about the right amount of syntax yes, though a bit more than lisp is fine
20:37:55 <elliott_> Haskell has very little syntax really.
20:38:00 <elliott_> unless you count things like "class x where ..."
20:38:09 <elliott_> Most of it is operators, which are not really "part of the syntax".
20:38:15 <CakeProphet> yes I actually think of Haskell as having fairly sparse syntax.
20:38:44 <CakeProphet> man... these colors hurt my eyes a little bit.
20:38:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, indeed, the mass of operators while not syntax is a problem. Remembering all is difficult. Function names may be better for stuff that is less common
20:39:04 <elliott_> Vorpal: Names /are/ used for less common operations.
20:39:13 <elliott_> Vorpal: You just don't know what's common, because you're not a Haskell programmer.
20:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, well even more so than currently
20:39:18 <elliott_> All the arrow, applicative, ... operations are common.
20:39:32 <elliott_> With alphabetical names, they would be much less useful as far as concision goes.
20:39:36 <CakeProphet> why not just highlight @ and % variables the same way as $... I mean, they already have sigils, that's enough to distinguish them.
20:39:42 <elliott_> (Concision makes things more readable because you don't have to skip over irrelveant names.)
20:39:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, I used <* and so on a few times. That is useful indeed
20:39:56 <elliott_> Vorpal: Well, then you're just imagining this huge mass of operators :)
20:40:18 <CakeProphet> Perl has a huge mass of operators, and they're also awesome.
20:40:21 <elliott_> Sgeo: Hey, you know why your esolangs in Racket suck?
20:40:25 <Vorpal> elliott_, I meant like the "get element in Data.Array"
20:40:28 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Perl [six] has even nicer operators
20:40:30 <Sgeo> elliott_, why?
20:40:39 <CakeProphet> maybe less operators than Haskell though, simply because Haskell has a limitless number.
20:40:41 * Sgeo failed to notice the "your"
20:40:44 <elliott_> Sgeo: Because they aren't Racket #langs.
20:41:01 <elliott_> Vorpal: Let's see. C: x[n]. Fortran: some syntax I don't know.
20:41:12 <elliott_> Every language ever: yes, getting an element out of an array is common enough to warrant an operator.
20:41:22 <elliott_> Besides, the operator is an exclamation mark, right?
20:41:25 <Vorpal> elliott_, sure, but in a functional language arrays aren't that central
20:41:30 <elliott_> That's the standard "element of container" operation.
20:41:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, isn't it <: or something?
20:41:44 <Vorpal> meh forgot what it was
20:41:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh that one had :< I think
20:42:11 <elliott_> :< is the constructor of ViewL.
20:42:16 <elliott_> It's like that so pattern matching is prettier.
20:42:24 <fizzie> elliott_: ARRAY(INDEX) for Fortran.
20:42:24 <Vorpal> elliott_, and come on, in lisp you don't have special syntax to get elements out of arrays
20:42:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, Not True Lips then, but okay
20:43:00 <CakeProphet> Lisp doesn't count as a normal programming language, by the way.
20:43:12 <elliott_> Vorpal: But really, that's a stupid argument, because by that standard you're only allowed to have syntax for:
20:43:21 <elliott_> - OH YEAH, tons of special forms.
20:43:33 <elliott_> You just don't see it because it's all made out of parens and names.
20:43:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, I think lisp should cut down on special forms yes
20:43:40 <fizzie> Is there a particular reason in @{$href->{$aref->[1]}}[3] to not go to the final end with arrow notation, as in $href->{$aref->[1]}->[3]?
20:43:43 <elliott_> So basically... you want... sexp lambda calculus?
20:43:55 <elliott_> Congratulations you have invented the least useful language ever.
20:44:04 <elliott_> Syntax is notation; not wanting notation is insanity.
20:44:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, macros let you define your own syntax yes
20:44:13 <Vorpal> but the standard library shouldn't have it
20:44:33 <elliott_> OK I'm stepping out of this conversation because it's stupid.
20:45:32 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Believe you me, Haskell has very, very sparse syntax. It just doesn't seem like it to you.
20:46:06 <pikhq_> Y'know all those operators you see? That's not really syntax. A Haskell operator is a function that's called infix. That's all.
20:46:35 <CakeProphet> fizzie: a better one would have used something like push. push @{href->{$aref->[1]}}, $data
20:46:58 <CakeProphet> unless push can work on refs, I haven't tried that actually.
20:47:07 <pikhq_> Vorpal: You seem to act like it isn't. :P
20:47:27 <CakeProphet> oh what do you know, push can take a scalar reference
20:47:37 <CakeProphet> time to clean up some code I've been working on.
20:48:30 <CakeProphet> elliott_: could you give me a rundown of what makes cperl-mode awesome and perl-mode not?
20:48:53 <fizzie> No it can't; at least not in my Perl. perl -e '$a = [1, 2]; push $a, 3;' => Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not scalar dereference) at -e line 1, near "3;"
20:49:05 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Nope, ask someone else :P
20:49:31 <CakeProphet> elliott_: haha, okay. Oh, and it's (defalias 'perl-mode 'cperl-mode)
20:50:13 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Oh, well, that's one way to do it.
20:50:17 <elliott_> That stops you using regular perl-mode though.
20:50:21 <fizzie> cperl-mode is awesome because it handles the fun(<<WOOT); \n quoted stuff \n more quoted stuff \n WOOT case.
20:50:46 <fizzie> (It's not awesome when it breaks, since at least for me it seems to break more messily than perl-mode.)
20:51:27 <fizzie> Also if you turn "cperl-hairy" on it's really confusing, full of electric things.
20:51:45 <CakeProphet> gedit breaks horribly on perl. I had to fix up a few regexes so that my code didn't vomit horrible colors at me.
20:52:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh that sort of electric
20:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, as in electric mode?
20:52:30 <fizzie> Yes, the Emacs sort of electric.
20:52:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is *always* confusing
20:53:25 <fizzie> cperl-hairy makes at least keywords, parens and some braces be all weird.
20:53:34 <fizzie> It auto-adds a space after typing "${" and so on.
20:53:59 <NihilistDandy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(programming_language)
20:55:51 <Vorpal> cool language, I didn't know of it
20:55:57 <Vorpal> total languages are always fun
20:56:28 <CakeProphet> So what are the typical commands you guys use to navigate between buffers. I've so far only discover C-x <arrow-key>
20:58:24 -!- TOGoS has joined.
20:58:32 <fizzie> "C-x b RET" is often enough if you just want to flip between two buffers repeatedly. (I'm not sure if there's a key that optimizes that particular operation even further.)
20:59:51 <NihilistDandy> elliott_: I didn't know of it. I thought it might be germane for this channel :D
21:01:21 <elliott_> NihilistDandy: It's an old research language, what do you expect :)
21:02:04 <CakeProphet> cperl-modes highlighting is kind of inconsistent feeling.
21:05:02 <fizzie> That's because it has one face for variable definitions, one for arrays and one for hashes; but none for plain scalar variables. In "my $info" it's not $info in particular it's highlighting, it's the variable definition it is.
21:06:55 <CakeProphet> ...lame, having the scalar variables highlighted would make things easier to read.
21:07:14 <elliott_> <CakeProphet> why not just highlight @ and % variables the same way as $... I mean, they already have sigils, that's enough to distinguish them.
21:09:43 <CakeProphet> elliott_: yes, the sigil is enough to distinguish between different types of variables, but it doesn't help with large lines of code consisting of only scalars.. everything is the same color.
21:09:52 <fizzie> CakeProphet: There seems to be a configuration key for it: setting cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately to non-nil will (probably) cause it to highlight all $foos with the variable-definition face.
21:11:09 <fizzie> (I haven't tried; just searched for "scalar" in some old cperl-mode.el; it's one of the defcustom'd vars; I guess you could look through the cperl group in the customization browser for further configuration options in general.)
21:11:37 <CakeProphet> how does you reload .emacs without a restart?
21:12:24 <elliott_> CakeProphet: try C-x C-e on the end of a line you want to execute
21:12:37 <elliott_> that's more useful than rerunning the whole file, especially as it might not be idempotent
21:12:57 <ais523> elliott_: or in lisp interaction mode, C-j
21:13:00 <pikhq_> The actual maximum bandwidth of cable Internet is 6762.4 Mbit/s in the US.
21:13:27 <elliott_> ais523: who has .emacs in lisp interaction mode?
21:13:48 <pikhq_> Yes, just over the cable network you can get nearly 7 gigabits per second.
21:13:52 <CakeProphet> ...definitely not someone who just started picking up emacs today.
21:14:14 <ais523> elliott_: oh, I restart Emacs to check changes for .emacs
21:14:21 <elliott_> CakeProphet: i take it you haven't done anything with the [asterisk]scratch[asterisk] buffer yet >:)
21:14:31 <ais523> due to it otherwise being easy to introduce bugs where .emacs runs things in the wrong order
21:14:38 <ais523> that tends not to show up if you test it "online"
21:14:44 * elliott_ considers setting the text colour for [asterisk]scratch[asterisk] to white
21:15:00 <pikhq_> If only they didn't keep that nasty "TV" on the line.
21:16:48 <CakeProphet> fizzie: nah that didn't variable didn't seem to change anything. I'll check out customize
21:17:13 <pikhq_> This rate could be doubled by using better modulation.
21:18:19 <elliott_> CakeProphet: How did you set it?
21:18:27 <elliott_> CakeProphet: You realise you have to re-enable the mode for it to take effect.
21:18:58 <CakeProphet> yeah I re-enable it. However, I just read the description of that variable and it says that it won't take any effect after the first time cperl-mode is loaded.
21:20:47 <CakeProphet> awww yeah, scalar variables are now a dull pasty brown.
21:22:09 <Phantom_Hoover> "(Raising e to an imaginary power produces rotation around a unit circle in the complex plane, according to Euler’s formula. How? Magic, as far as I can tell. But apparently it’s true)."
21:23:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hey not all programmers are stupid
21:23:14 <pikhq_> For comparison, the maximum rate of DSL is about 200 Mbit/s. An order of magnitude smaller than cable, if the cable companies didn't hate the Internet.
21:23:14 <quintopia> that's a good example of something unintuitive to the uninitiated
21:23:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, come on, I understand why Euler's formulas work :P
21:23:44 <elliott_> "I decided that Fourier must have been speaking to aliens, because if you gave me all the time and paper in the world, I would not have been able to come up with that."
21:23:48 <elliott_> Possibly, because you are stupid.
21:23:55 <elliott_> Possibly, because Fourier was a genius.
21:24:17 <elliott_> OK Google tells me Fourier didn't actually write the transform.
21:24:21 * pikhq_ would love to see a cable company turn off its cable TV service and start offering gigabit Internet.
21:24:22 <elliott_> Obviously it was space aliens.
21:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Didn't Fourier set the stage for the huge flurry over the basis of calculus?
21:25:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like a genius right there then
21:27:13 <CakeProphet> oh hey, one day in and Emacs isn't too bad. Perhaps in a few more days it'll even be not a pain in the ass to do anything.
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21:28:13 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, try M-x set-input<tab> RET TeX RET
21:28:27 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, then write some tex notation into the buffer
21:28:43 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, it will convert a subset to unicode
21:30:51 <elliott_> CakeProphet: M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead
21:30:57 <elliott_> (Press a character to stop it.)
21:31:29 <elliott_> (Works in both terminals and graphically[exclamation mark])
21:32:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, when will you get your keyboard fixed?
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21:34:46 <CakeProphet> Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!
21:34:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, psychoanalyze-pinhead kind of sucks with the stripped-down yow.
21:37:00 <CakeProphet> elliott_: hanoi seems to have stopped working when I gave it a numeric argument of
21:37:08 <elliott_> CakeProphet: tried tetris yet?
21:37:16 <elliott_> it even has fancy pieces in the graphical version
21:47:31 <CakeProphet> You: Does it please you to believe that it pleases me to believe that?
21:47:33 <CakeProphet> Eliza: Oh, i to believe that it pleases you to believe that.
21:50:11 <ais523> can anyone here think of a word meaning "susceptibility to invasion by zombies"?
21:51:36 <elliott_> ais523: I'd tell you, but you'd have to make me a developer.
21:51:48 <elliott_> Although a trial developer would be OK too
21:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/Math
21:55:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Who wants to play "how long until the first facepalm!"
21:55:28 -!- ajf has changed nick to ajf|offline.
21:56:01 <elliott_> "Why do people in an Honors Advanced Precalc class still need to ask "When are we going to use this in life?" If you've opted to take the class, and gotten to this level, you should know that unless you get a career in pure math or teaching, you're not going to use it. Just deal with it."
21:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> "Math is used in everything. Well, almost everything. Economists use some very advanced math including fields like differential equations, probability and statistics, dynamical systems, and even some more pure stuff like linear algebra and analysis."
21:56:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it a bad sign that I don't really think of many of those things as "advanced"?
21:57:12 <pikhq_> Having finished linear algebra and differential equations, I'd agree with you that they're not too advanced...
21:57:48 <pikhq_> Diff. eq just follows naturally from calculus, and linear algebra reasonably could be part of the standard secondary educational curriculum.
21:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I kind of skipped over both because numbers are kind of ugly.
21:58:20 <elliott_> an opinion you share with oklofok
21:58:31 <Phantom_Hoover> BTW, here's about 20 pages of natter discussing the problem and why this is such a common question."
21:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://pastebin.com/6AK4DJbU is the pages of arguments.
21:59:03 <elliott_> I like the implication in those questions that it's, like, physically impossible.
21:59:29 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Linear algebra would be a much better course without numbers.
21:59:44 <elliott_> "It's possible to ''multiply'' by 0 (with the result always being 0), and dividing is the exact opposite of multiplication, so why isn't any number/0 always 0?"
22:00:02 <elliott_> "However, it's impossible to break up the group represented by the dividend into 0 groups, so any number divided by 0 will always be undefined."
22:00:06 <elliott_> You just answered your own question.
22:00:11 <elliott_> "However, multiplying by 0 means you're combining 0 groups of a specific number of items...which is equally impossible."
22:00:18 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I'm crying irl
22:00:42 <pikhq_> I thought that division by 0 was left undefined simply because defining it makes you lose a number of algebraic properties that are rather nice.
22:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "Why is algebra and algorithms considered or anything involving advanced mathematics required classes if the career I want is to become a cartoonist?"
22:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> The way mathematics is taught completely removes all the benefits of learning it.
22:02:10 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Calculation should be considered completely seperate from math.
22:02:19 <elliott_> pikhq_: There is a perfectly good name for it: arithmetic.
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22:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Memorising rules for differentiation is just as useless.
22:03:12 <elliott_> I was simply responding to pikhq_.
22:03:17 <pikhq_> elliott_: "Arithmetic" kinda gives you the notion that it's merely addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and perhaps some square roots.
22:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> At least arithmetic can actually be used without understanding.
22:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're actually going to *need* calculus, you probably need to understand the underlying reasoning as well.
22:06:01 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Quite true. Memorisation of things is pretty pointless.
22:06:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I say this as someone who has an extremely shaky understanding of some basic calculus.
22:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Although this is because I was learning it at the same time as GCSE for an exam later in the year.
22:06:54 <pikhq_> Literally the *only* time I will ever have a need to memorise, say, derivatives or integrals, is for a test.
22:06:59 <elliott_> blind people can't do calculus
22:07:01 <CakeProphet> Ok I am 1.87 and I am 32 years old and I am married.
22:07:07 <CakeProphet> ...I wonder if cleverbot will cyber with me.
22:07:17 <pikhq_> Every other time, *I can look shit up*.
22:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "Seriously, guys. Who the hell came up with the term 'integer'? What is wrong with calling them 'numbers'? If they're supposed to be called 'integers', why the hell do we even use the word 'number' anyway? Let's be honest here: when I first learned the term 'integer' back in middle school, that was the moment when mathematics Jumped The Shark for me. I've never trusted it since."
22:07:29 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: ahoifahhaahahahahaahaha
22:07:41 <pikhq_> If it's actually relevant to what I'm doing a lot, then I'll probably memorise it anyways.
22:07:56 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: "mathematics Jumped the Shark for me. I've never trusted it since." marks it as a joke.
22:08:17 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, it is /possible/ someone that idiotic exists, but would they really be able to form decent sentences and make references to tropes?
22:08:36 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: they can't form sentences.
22:08:55 <elliott_> Evidence to the contrary NOTWITHSTANDING.
22:09:05 <elliott_> Oh god don't. The last time you did that ten thousand infants died.
22:09:28 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:10:44 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Arguably, he is. His writings are the very first evidence we have of anything resembling Christianity.
22:11:37 <pikhq_> I find it amusing that Paul never once quotes Jesus.
22:11:56 <Phantom_Hoover> First, read Homestuck. Then, read homestucksecrets. Go into fit of manic depression. Cure with kittens. Then, you shall understand truly that reference.
22:11:59 <pikhq_> Or, indeed, gives any suggestion that Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human being.
22:14:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately, start reading Homestuck, then stop halfway through, so I can control both you and elliott_ with the threat of spoilers.
22:15:23 <Sgeo> READ IT READ IT READ IT
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22:17:21 <oerjan> WHO WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME
22:18:46 <elliott_> If "the imprisoning god" gives away a shitload, I'm going to tear your fucking head off and punch it into a sausage-making machine.
22:19:00 <elliott_> But I'll keep a backup of your mind first so I can torture it for the rest of eternity.
22:19:46 <elliott_> And this, kids, is why Phantom_Hoover is hereby banned from joking about spoilers.
22:19:59 <oerjan> ...isn't that basically the background of I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream. or something.
22:20:35 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Too busy keeping friend on his toes by re-reading Homestuck in sync with him.
22:20:46 <elliott_> He is so unreliable you have no idea.
22:21:08 <elliott_> oerjan: ARE YOU GOING TO SPOIL EVERY MAJOR WORK OF FICTION FROM THE PAST CENTURY FOR ME ;D
22:21:23 <oerjan> elliott_: WELL WE WERE ON A RUN HERE...
22:21:27 <elliott_> There should be a greasemonkey extension that hides all sections named "Plot" or "Plot summary" from Wikipedia articles.
22:21:36 <elliott_> (Especially since they tend to be badly-written anyway.)
22:22:24 <elliott_> The Culture is one of the few things penetrating the depth of my Fiction Backlog.
22:25:32 <elliott_> Also, it would be hilarious if they didn't and all the remaining books were just "Nothing happened because the Culture no longer exists." repeated ad infinitum
22:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It was more "I want to play with the lesser species!" "No me!" "No me!"
22:28:15 <elliott_> Shut up before you spoil something.
22:28:37 <elliott_> I need to obtain every Culture book in hardback before I read them, dammit, and that will be a pain.
22:28:59 <oerjan> hm plot idea for a sci-fi novel: the protagonist is from a fanatical religious world that recently won a war against a goody-two-shoes liberal one. the great reveal near the end is that they actually lost but the liberals put them in a virtual simulation where they think they won instead
22:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The war is barely relevant to the Culture series anyway.
22:29:33 <oerjan> <- now spoiling books before they are written
22:29:59 <elliott_> oerjan: That's really more of a novella type idea, isn't it
22:30:03 <elliott_> I mean it's not that much of a conclusion
22:30:15 <elliott_> "And then they won except, ha ha, not really. The end."
22:30:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:30:44 * oerjan has never written either
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22:31:55 <monqy> how popular are books intentionally spoiled from the beginning
22:31:59 <monqy> do they even exist
22:32:12 <quintopia> monqy: "John dies in the end" has sold pretty well
22:32:27 <elliott_> My assumption with that book is that John dying is not, in fact, the real climax :)
22:32:37 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Two star-crossed lovers take their lives because they're idiots.
22:32:42 <elliott_> And now let me tell you how in excruciating detial.
22:32:52 <quintopia> elliott_: my assumption is that it's litfic, and therefore has no real climax
22:32:52 <monqy> oh I remember that one
22:33:06 <monqy> everyone else was an idiot too right
22:33:18 <elliott_> quintopia: Is "comedic horror" generally considered to be able to be literary fiction?
22:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> People seem not to realise that Melville didn't actually write Moby Dick with the assumption that the reader would know how it ends.
22:33:27 <elliott_> (Not making a judgement on whether it should be, but it seems rather out of the scope.)
22:33:46 <quintopia> i knew a girl writing a litfic about pokemon
22:33:51 <elliott_> monqy: Yes, apart from the Priest guy, who as I recall told everyone else they were stupid.
22:33:58 <monqy> oh and there's that one where everyone commits suicide because someone didn't get a burial, right?
22:34:12 <oerjan> but did he write it with the assumption that anyone would read all of it through?
22:34:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:34:21 <elliott_> quintopia: But comedic litfic has two conflicting aims -- to make you laugh and to, uhh, be literary fiction.
22:34:41 <quintopia> elliott_: i never said it was easy
22:34:43 <elliott_> I should read House of Leaves sometime. also, Infinite Jest. Prediction: I will never do either.
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22:37:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "This Troper's boyfriend has been incredulously good at math since he was in elementary school,"
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22:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "Gets bored" is probably the wrong phrase; it's more that I keep trying to do a depth-first traversal of the internet.
22:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox
22:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "Mathematics has shown that any object can be reassembled into any other object."
22:40:58 <monqy> This short article about science can be made longer. You can help Wikipedia by adding to it.
22:42:09 <monqy> I like how everything is simpler
22:43:06 <monqy> I'm not quite sure about some of these things
22:43:13 <monqy> "Change" instead of "Edit", really?
22:43:19 <monqy> "Give" instead of "Donate"
22:43:45 <Phantom_Hoover> They basically took every Latinate word and replaced it with an Anglo-Saxon one.
22:44:04 <monqy> this makes it simpler
22:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way they simplify to the point of wrongness.
22:44:51 <Phantom_Hoover> RANDOM THOUGHT: Bismuth as shielding around a hard drive.
22:45:07 <Gregor> Yeah, it's not that special.
22:45:25 <monqy> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems
22:45:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: how uncleftish
22:46:05 <monqy> I find simple english harder to follow than regular english
22:46:53 -!- TOGoS has left.
22:46:57 <elliott_> I want complex english wikipedia
22:47:22 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: bismuth isn't funny
22:47:46 <monqy> no it is serious bismuth
22:48:19 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: bismuth is NOT funny
22:48:57 <monqy> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felisburgo
22:49:18 <monqy> straight and to the point
22:49:30 <monqy> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vernon,_Illinois
22:49:54 <monqy> hitting "Show any page" is bringing up a lot of these
22:50:52 <elliott_> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting
22:50:55 <elliott_> Counting is something people do to find out how many things there are of any kind.
22:51:02 <elliott_> it's abstract to the point of unreadability
22:51:17 <monqy> counting is something people do to count stuff
22:51:39 <monqy> The person counting usually starts with the number one, and gives this number to the first thing. The next thing is given the number two. Then, the next thing is given the number three. If there is another thing, it gets the number four. More things get more numbers. Each thing gets its own number in this way. The last number given to the last thing counted shows how many things there are.
22:52:13 <elliott_> i'm imagining a guy handing out numbers to little cute kittens or something
22:52:20 <monqy> oh jeez it has examples
22:52:27 <monqy> There are the letters A, Q, L, and S on a piece of paper. How many letters are there on the piece of paper?
22:52:30 <monqy> Tom gives numbers to the letters. The letter A gets the number 1. The letter Q gets the number 2. The letter L gets the number 3. The letter S gets the number 4. There are no more letters to count. There are 4 letters on the piece of paper.
22:52:32 <elliott_> Guitar Hero: Metallica is a rhythm game that was made by Neversoft with other help from Activision. It is part of the Guitar Hero franchise. The game was released in North America on March 29, 2009 for the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 and the Wii and was released on April 14, 2009 in North America for the PlayStation 2. In the game Guitar Hero: World Tour, there is a trailer for the game with the song "Master of Puppets" playing in the background. "It also s
22:52:32 <elliott_> ays Ride the Lightning 2009."[needs proof]
22:52:55 <elliott_> The word art is used to describe some activities or creations of human beings that have importance to the human mind, regarding an attraction to the human senses. Therefore, art is made when a human expresses himself or herself.
22:53:16 <monqy> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation
22:54:01 <elliott_> it'll start "when a man and a women love each other very much"
22:54:12 <elliott_> let me tell you about the birds.
22:54:16 <monqy> Sex is a type of reproduction common among living things. It always needs two individuals, usually of the same species. Sex is used by plants and animals, and also by fungi and various single-celled organisms. It works by combining genes from more than one source.
22:54:31 <elliott_> so if genes don't combine it isn't sex?
22:54:43 <elliott_> i am here first time i got this site good and i wish to express my thougts i am astonished to see the dual and tripple policies of world powers the superpowers as they claimed theirslves and i called so it called superpowers.all the are acting the world have no realistic approach of justification just to give a new trend to make and create a new joke that the world is in danger and all civilized nations are near to destroy by the elements called terrori
22:54:43 <elliott_> st we have never seen them in real life just to see what the reallly want to show to us on their controlled media and make people fool in this way and get all their vested interst and make any nation their colony and use of power in their thought is sacred and any other person or a group use the power is called genoside terrorism atrocities etc.
22:54:58 <monqy> oh gross it has nudity and a picture of butterfly sex
22:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> "The cat on the right is fed up with the cat on the left and this is a semi-serious warning."
22:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> "5. Watch, delighted, as kitten sits down promptly and urinates. Do same for other kits.
22:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> 6. Repeat next time if they need it. They will not need a third time. Probably."
22:57:09 <monqy> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby
22:57:13 <monqy> A baby is a very young human who is usually born after coming out of a woman.
22:57:38 <pikhq> Cabal is very, very poorly suited to builds where you don't *want* to install the program.
22:57:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "Never chastise a cat physically: if you do, the relationship will never be the same again."
22:57:55 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: bahahahaoaihfjgoifdjh
22:57:57 <monqy> A child is a month old, a baby until he or she is about three years old, and a preschooler between 3 years old and school.
22:58:24 <elliott_> http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baby&action=historysubmit&diff=1817847&oldid=1814967
22:58:33 <elliott_> Cuteness is a type of liking people have, such as toward children and babies. It mostly depends on their appearance.
22:58:36 <elliott_> Knut, a young polar bear at the Berlin Zoo, has been talked about in the media as "cute".[1]
22:58:58 <monqy> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
22:58:58 <monqy> (Redirected from Miscarriage
22:59:39 <monqy> okay it's defining abortion generally to include miscarriages
22:59:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Outside of this closely related group, it has not been observed.
23:00:35 <Phantom_Hoover> This article is more detailed than their articles on... everything.
23:00:48 <monqy> I'm reading about human sacrifice now
23:00:55 <Phantom_Hoover> BONUS STUPID WIKIPEDIAS: http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
23:01:15 <elliott_> Her arrival interested people from all over the world, because many sources thought the two bears (although they were sexually immature) would soon be "dating".[34]
23:01:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The non-English Anglo-Frisian languages deserve a Wikipedia, too.
23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "Afore nou, cats citch moose an froot aboot fowk's hooses."
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23:02:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot show my amusement there are English people I must show solidarity oh god I can't this is ridiculous.
23:02:16 <elliott_> A kinnen or rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus) is wee-er nor a maukin. The bouerie unner the grund whaur kinnens leeves is kent as a cuningar. A young kinnen is cried a leprone.
23:02:21 <Gregor> elliott_: See the page on "dating" though. The male bear was "dating" his penis into the female bear's vagina :P
23:02:34 <elliott_> A maukin or hare, whiles kent as a donie; baud, bautie or pous(ie) an aw, haes lang lugs a can rin awfu fast. A young hare is cried a leprone.
23:02:34 <elliott_> * The broun hare (Lepus europaeus)
23:02:34 <elliott_> * The white hare or cuttie (Lepus timidus)
23:02:49 <elliott_> But there IS a homosexuality page
23:03:01 <elliott_> What's sex called in Scots Phantom_Hoover
23:03:32 <elliott_> The cavalier o Hohenberg an his squire burned far crime o sodomy.
23:03:46 <pikhq> elliott_: Scots is only common in the Highlands.
23:03:47 <elliott_> "Gaun by the Kinsey Scale, bisexuals can reenge fae bein a bittie homosexual tae beein a bittie heterosexual."
23:03:59 <elliott_> http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance
23:04:13 <Gregor> Ach, feelin' a bittie homosexual tadae!
23:04:20 <elliott_> Metallica (pronounced /mɛˈtælɨkə/) is an American hivy metal baund frae Los Angeles, California, formed in 1981. The baund wis foondit when an advertisement postit bi drummer Lars Ulrich in a local newspaper, wis respondit tae bi James Hetfield. Metallica's line up haes primarily consistit o Ulrich, rhythm guitarist an vocalist James Hetfield an lead guitarist Kirk Hammett, while goin through a number o bassists (Ron McGovney, Cliff Burton, Jason N
23:04:20 <elliott_> ewsted). The spot is currently held bi Robert Trujillo. The baund's oreeginal lead guitarist, afore Hammett, wis current Megadeth guitarist an lead vocalist Dave Mustaine.
23:04:49 <elliott_> "As o December 2009, Metallica is the fowert best-sellin muisic airtist since the SoundScan era began trackin sales on Mey 25, 1991, sellin a total o 52,271,000 albums in the Unitit States alone."
23:04:56 <pikhq> elliott_: Be glad Yola's dead, I guess.
23:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> "Gaun by the Kinsey Scale, bisexuals can reenge fae bein a bittie homosexual tae beein a bittie heterosexual."
23:05:03 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Already pasted.
23:05:04 <monqy> time to try out the Wale page allevolie
23:05:24 <elliott_> Ingland's muckle maist ceety, Lunnon, is the caipital o the Unitit Kinrick an aw.
23:05:37 <elliott_> http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Breetain
23:06:15 <Gregor> Normal = modern English :P
23:06:45 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Scots is a distinct language with less well-defined orthography than English. Sorry. :P
23:06:46 <monqy> http://af.wikipedia.org/
23:06:54 <elliott_> * This wrangous neologism wis niver uised bi native speakers onywhaur at onytime. It wis cleckit in the late 1990s bi Ulstèr-Scotch enthusiasts.
23:07:04 <elliott_> # (nou | last) 16:08, 10 Februar 2011 207.235.31.62 (Collogue) (6 bytes) (Replacin page wi 'POTATO') (undo)
23:07:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: CLEARLY NOÖNE.
23:07:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: NO TRUE SCOTSMAN DOES NOT SPEAK SCOTS.
23:07:53 <Gregor> elliott_: Stoooooooooooop
23:07:59 <elliott_> http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%B7:%CE%9A%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1
23:08:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's not phonetic unless you don't speak with the Great Vowel Shift.
23:08:20 <elliott_> monqy: # President Barack Obama bevestig dat die terroristeleier Osama bin Laden in 'n Amerikaanse aanval dood is.
23:08:56 <Gregor> "Amerikaanse aanval dood is"!
23:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sorry guys I can't join in or I'll lose my Scottish licence.
23:10:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Guess you better learn Scots, then. And perhaps Gaelic.
23:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And I'll have to lose all those cool perks we get because the English are suckers.
23:11:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Fantastic, learn Irish as well!
23:11:04 <Gregor> But the Irish are ethnically Scottish :P
23:11:17 <pikhq> Oh, hell, and Welsh. Might as well pick up all the living Celtic languages.
23:11:58 <pikhq> WHY HASN'T ENGLISH CONQUERED THE BRITISH ISLES
23:12:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no you are Scottish
23:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, it has in the sense that almost everyone speaks it to some degree.
23:13:14 <pikhq> Given that there's 100 native speakers of Manx, and 600 of Cornish, I feel justified in calling them dead.
23:13:17 <elliott_> I'm going to go to the Highlands and everyone will be all "Why are you pronouncing everything non-phonetically"
23:13:30 <elliott_> Actually they'll just murder me for sounding English.
23:13:37 <Gregor> pikhq: Wikipedia says 1,700 and 3,000 :P
23:13:58 <pikhq> Gregor: Total speakers.
23:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> Given that there's 100 native speakers of Manx, and 600 of Cornish, I feel justified in calling them dead.
23:14:57 <pikhq> And you mean "Isle of Man".
23:15:12 <pikhq> No, wait, you do mean "Mann".
23:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> That's almost as bad as the time I discovered that the tiny Irish village I get dragged to has a population of around 2000.
23:16:53 <pikhq> Humans suck at population estimation.
23:18:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The best part is that according to WP and some calculation, 8 of those people aren't Protestant or Catholic.
23:19:25 <monqy> and how many of those eight do some other religion
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23:21:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well done, monqy, you have successfully explicited the subtext!
23:21:23 -!- augur has joined.
23:21:49 <CakeProphet> I should write a script that makes jabberwacky and cleverbot talk to each other.
23:22:23 <CakeProphet> google results have yielded nothing so far.
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23:34:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The Grapes of Wrath demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about what makes a compelling narrative.
23:34:42 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Is part of demonstrating that lack of understanding.
23:35:15 <pikhq> "If you'll excuse me, I would like to cease the narrative to wank onto the page!"
23:35:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Name some authors, I'll probably come up with something.
23:37:25 <pikhq> That's not registering as an author.
23:37:37 <Sgeo> Terry Pratchett
23:37:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: I cannot dismiss them.
23:38:54 <pikhq> He's an old Greek dude that people fellate without having actually read anything by him.
23:39:44 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Incompetent author and a Mormon writing about the Mormon ideal of a relationship. Also, vampires.
23:40:06 <elliott_> (This is the result of me googling "Meyers".)
23:40:14 <elliott_> (And having no clue who you meant until pikhq answered.)
23:40:43 <Sgeo> pikhq, vampires can be good
23:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU HAVE NOT LIVED THROUGH THE TORMENT OF HAVING A SISTER WHO IS A SUPERPOSITION OF EVERY ANNOYING THING A YOUNGER SISTER CAN BE
23:41:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not when written by someone who has obviously never even read Dracula.
23:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> She went from reading Twilight and zealously following the charts to being a pretentious hipster in about 3 months.
23:41:43 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: the internet can do that to people.
23:42:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: And appears to think an abusive relationship is desirable.
23:42:46 <Sgeo> That's a problem with the story, not the vampires
23:42:55 <Sgeo> Or, well, problem with the author
23:42:59 <Sgeo> No, just saying
23:43:35 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Do you think can you elaborate on that because of an experience you had as a child?
23:44:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: A genuinely good author.
23:44:29 <pikhq> And supreme badass.
23:45:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: An oft-misunderstood playwrite, who uses rather crude language, contrary to popular belief.
23:45:16 <CakeProphet> elliott_: (this is going to go nowehre fast...)
23:45:22 <elliott_> CakeProphet: already gave up :D
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23:45:41 <pikhq> elliott_: Cannot give a meaningful comment.
23:45:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It said complex sentences were male and simple ones female.
23:46:06 <oerjan> this is joyce. you don't need to be meaningful.
23:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> On pikhq's suggestion, I fed Hemingway in, and he came out 83% female.
23:46:35 <pikhq> Pretty unsurprising. Hemingway reïnvented simple language.
23:46:59 <elliott_> Allow me to quote Finnegans Wake.
23:47:01 <elliott_> Sir Tristram, violer d'amores, fr'over the short sea, had passen- 4
23:47:01 <elliott_> core rearrived from North Armorica on this side the scraggy5
23:47:01 <elliott_> isthmus of Europe Minor to wielderfight his penisolate war: nor6
23:47:01 <elliott_> had topsawyer's rocks by the stream Oconee exaggerated themselse7
23:47:01 <elliott_> to Laurens County's gorgios while they went doublin their mumper8
23:47:01 <elliott_> all the time: nor avoice from afire bellowsed mishe mishe to9
23:47:04 <elliott_> tauftauf thuartpeatrick: not yet, though venissoon after, had a10
23:47:05 <elliott_> kidscad buttended a bland old isaac: not yet, though all's fair in11
23:47:07 <elliott_> vanessy, were sosie sesthers wroth with twone nathandjoe. Rot a12
23:47:09 <elliott_> peck of pa's malt had Jhem or Shen brewed by arclight and rory13
23:47:12 <elliott_> end to the regginbrow was to be seen ringsome on the aquaface.
23:47:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Fuck yoü. :P
23:47:21 * elliott_ reads the last two pages of Finnegans Wake
23:47:24 <elliott_> Aw man, now I've spoilt it for myself.
23:47:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, I might be required to like Joyce on account of technical Irishness.
23:47:46 <elliott_> Do you see what I did there: it was a joke.
23:47:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Although Ireland kind of sucks right now so I can't be bothered.
23:47:58 <oerjan> technical irishness, the best kind of irishness
23:48:00 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Anyone who uses the word "tumptytumtoes" can't be that bad.
23:48:07 <elliott_> Or "humptyhillhead". Or "pftjschute".
23:48:10 <elliott_> Or... "upturnpikepointandplace"?
23:48:16 <elliott_> Or "bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk".
23:48:20 <elliott_> These are all from the first page.
23:48:28 <elliott_> Maybe he pioneered Markov chains.
23:48:37 <oerjan> elliott_: hey clearly that's a genuine welsh place name
23:48:56 <elliott_> James Joyce made up nine 101-letter words in his novel Finnegans Wake, the most famous of which is Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk. Appearing on the first page, it allegedly represents the symbolic thunderclap associated with the fall of Adam and Eve. As it appears nowhere else except in reference to this passage, it is generally not accepted as a real word. Sylvia Plath made mention o
23:48:56 <elliott_> f it in her semi-autobiographical novel The Bell Jar, when the protagonist was reading Finnegans Wake.
23:49:07 <elliott_> "Owing to the work's expansive linguistic experiments, stream of consciousness writing style, literary allusions, free dream associations, and its abandonment of the conventions of plot and character construction, Finnegans Wake remains largely unread by the general public."
23:49:18 <elliott_> It's all but saying "actually, it literally makes no sense at all".
23:51:07 <oerjan> none else would be a plausible norwegian female name
23:52:07 <ralc> still going strong elliott_
23:52:39 <oerjan> even more plausible in danish, actually
23:53:40 <oerjan> or wait danes use double last names instead of first names, don't they