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00:36:38 <pikhq> *What the hell* is going on.
00:37:24 <pikhq> xfwm4 is not starting.
00:38:11 <coppro> thought you meant something like terrorists
00:38:26 <elliott> pikhq: xfwm4 sucks anyway :(
00:38:31 <elliott> Because if you have click to focus on, then scroll-wheel focuses
00:40:28 <elliott> "Of Lisp Macros and Washing Machines"
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00:48:54 <pikhq> Hmm. A fork of KDE3 is still maintained; *tempting*.
00:49:50 <elliott> I've talked to the maintainer of that
01:01:47 <tswett> Tarkenenkohan minä ulkona näillä vaatteilla?
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02:20:38 <Sgeo> That reminds me way too much of a Christian song I heard once
02:20:45 <Sgeo> Had a catchy rythm though
02:22:27 <zzo38> What Christian song?
02:23:06 <Sgeo> I'm trying to find it, hold on
02:23:29 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Feather&curid=3601&diff=22891&oldid=20446
02:23:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GRHiEbCKIE
02:23:46 <Sgeo> (Warning: It's... very ... uh)
02:23:47 <elliott> wiki just asked me to solve 92 + 0
02:24:50 <zzo38> Sgeo: No, I mean the title, not the video
02:25:29 <elliott> thsi is amazing its so bad
02:25:44 <zzo38> Ha ha I win even more than "hemflit"
02:26:31 <Sgeo> I think I like the musical sounds, even if the lyrics are a bit... creepy
02:28:04 <zzo38> elliott: Do you try? (O, wait, I think you can't, isn't it?)
02:28:35 <zzo38> Maybe you can win even more?
02:28:58 <zzo38> Because some of the keys on your computer are broken?
02:29:00 <Sgeo> (defun rebəl () (take-too-seriously 'bible))
02:29:11 <elliott> zzo38: I can insert digits in other ways, it just takes a little longer.
02:29:23 <zzo38> OK, then perhaps you can.
02:29:32 <elliott> I've mostly skipped anagolf lately because the challenges have been boring.
02:29:50 <zzo38> And I mean the Deadfish challenge to be specific, that is the one I win at AWK
02:30:22 <zzo38> However I did not win at C but maybe I can try harder and see if I can eventually win, or maybe not
02:31:25 <zzo38> And if you think some of challenges have been boring, then make a new one if you know how to make something more interesting
02:32:53 <zzo38> Can you win at Forth?
02:37:44 <Sgeo> On the plus side, he argues against Philisophical relativism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zBcXKVaFg8
02:42:02 <Sgeo> He attempts to blow off secular humanism in a similar way :/. That argument was clearly crap, maybe his argument against relativism is similarly crap?
02:44:29 <zzo38> Is there musical TFM format? If not, maybe I can invent it same as normal TFM format, just with different meanings for the font dimension parameters and so on
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03:11:57 <pikhq> It is so, so very freaky talking to my dad now.
03:12:27 <pikhq> It takes immense self-restraint to not just shout "Your very premises about reality are demonstrably wrong!"
03:12:37 <monqy> I feel that way too
03:13:21 <pikhq> Made worse by how I have yet to even say that I'm an atheist to him, for fear of never hearing the end of it from everyone around me.
03:15:22 <zzo38> My father is atheist
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03:16:14 <pikhq> My father is a fundamentalist Christian, and believes in a loving, omnipotent, smiting deity.
03:16:30 <pikhq> Yes, benevolent and smiting.
03:17:39 <pikhq> Also, he's a young-earth creationist.
03:18:32 <monqy> my whole family is catholic (but im atheist)
03:19:07 <pikhq> Very hard to believe that considering the gigantic towers of evidence in favor of an old, *old* Earth in an even older universe.
03:19:26 <Sgeo> I'm more annoyed my my step-mom's insistance that I only date Jewish girls, that I go to Israel for some time, etc.
03:19:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: "I refuse to reside in an apartheid state." is the proper answer to the latter.
03:21:15 * Sgeo vaguely attempts to get Chicken Scheme working
03:21:31 <Sgeo> I _still_ haven't settled on a LISP-family language
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03:24:16 <monqy> you don't have to settle on one, do you?
03:24:22 <monqy> just learn a bunch of them
03:24:54 <Sgeo> I'm not writing 3 AW SDK bindings for 3 similar yet different languages...
03:25:04 * Sgeo gets shot by everyone in this channel.
03:26:16 <Sgeo> 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
03:26:25 * Sgeo doesn't know whether to curse XChat or Windows
03:27:16 * Sgeo would like a Linux distro with a working battery meter on this computer -- i.e., doesn't break when I don't deactivate ACPI (or is it ACIP, or APIC, I can never remember?)
03:27:52 <monqy> I didn't know battery meters were coupled with distros
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03:28:10 <monqy> are you insane or have you only tried sucky distros
03:28:56 <Sgeo> I'm assuming that distros are somewhat coupled with "Does ACPI work or will the OS fail to boot if I don't deactivate it?"
03:30:02 <pikhq> Lymia: Oh, boohoo. Only take you a month or two of dedicated study.
03:30:12 <monqy> and why would acpi not work
03:30:15 <Lymia> I'm not good at becoming dedicated.
03:30:17 <pikhq> Lymia: But lemme transcribe that for you.
03:30:26 <monqy> and is that even a distro problem
03:30:34 <pikhq> monqy: Kernel problem.
03:30:38 <monqy> yeah that's what I thought
03:30:47 <Sgeo> "wget: command not found"
03:30:59 * Sgeo angers in MinGW's general direction
03:31:12 <pikhq> ACPI is one of the few cases where the BIOS has *any* influence on the system after the boot sector has been loaded into memory.
03:31:13 <Lymia> Guess we know why it says "Min" now.
03:31:17 <pikhq> (on a modern system)
03:31:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why would it have wget? MinGW itself only really has a GCC port and headers, and msys only has enough of a POSIX system to get the GNU build system to work.
03:32:04 <monqy> Sgeo: could you get a fancy kernel to fix your problem
03:32:17 <Sgeo> monqy, if I had any idea how..
03:32:28 <Sgeo> Or what, exactly, I'm looking for, besides "Works"
03:32:41 <monqy> maybe if you told google your problem
03:32:54 <pikhq> monqy: What he'd want to fix his problem is a large quantity of troubleshooting.
03:33:17 <Sgeo> The solution that I found a while ago was to disable acpi.
03:33:18 <pikhq> And, given that he's got a failure to boot, it seems plausible he'd need a kernel debugging setup to make any meaningful progress.
03:33:29 <Sgeo> acpi=off or was it noacpi
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03:39:41 <elliott> <pikhq> Made worse by how I have yet to even say that I'm an atheist to him, for fear of never hearing the end of it from everyone around me.
03:39:57 <elliott> pikhq: "I don't really feel very religious" is an easier way to phrase it I think
03:40:13 <elliott> There's some anathema in America to the word "atheist" that seemingly isn't associated with actually being an atheist, just identifying as "atheist"
03:40:21 <Sgeo> People in #math seem to be assuming that everyone that comes in there is a genius, and fail to realize that someone who asked a question may not realize a subtely in their response
03:40:23 <elliott> <pikhq> Also, he's a young-earth creationist.
03:40:41 <elliott> <Sgeo> I'm more annoyed my my step-mom's insistance that I only date Jewish girls, that I go to Israel for some time, etc.
03:40:41 <elliott> <pikhq> Sgeo: "I refuse to reside in an apartheid state." is the proper answer to the latter.
03:41:18 <elliott> <Sgeo> "wget: command not found"
03:41:19 <elliott> * Sgeo angers in MinGW's general direction
03:41:25 <elliott> mingw is a gcc port, not a posix library
03:41:44 <elliott> <Sgeo> People in #math seem to be assuming that everyone that comes in there is a genius, and fail to realize that someone who asked a question may not realize a subtely in their response
03:41:51 <elliott> probably they realise it's not the case but don't give a shit.
03:42:18 <elliott> and nobody in #math will be a genius. well maybe a few people. but the standard for genius is quite high.
03:42:30 <elliott> unless you mean they're not geniuses but assume the askers are geniuses
03:42:37 <elliott> which could only manifest as... grovelling?
03:42:45 <Sgeo> Not what I meant
03:43:29 <pikhq> My processor has the following serial number: "To Be Filled By O.E.M."
03:45:10 <pikhq> Also, it's pretty insane the amount of information hwinfo can get.
03:45:24 <pikhq> I am literally looking at an enumeration of the ports on the back of my computer.
03:46:10 <pikhq> With their types, the internal header they're soldered to, the external label, and the type of socket it has.
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03:51:46 <Lymia> Is it possible to override a password in the CMOS if you have root access?
03:52:25 <pikhq> Do you mean "possible" or "feasible"?
03:53:10 <Lymia> Both would be interesting.
03:53:25 <pikhq> "Feasible" I doubt.
03:53:51 <pikhq> But "possible", most certainly, *if* you have some way of executing code in the kernel (via modules or /dev/kmem) and a flashable BIOS.
03:54:17 <pikhq> "Simply" flash the BIOS from the kernel.
03:54:39 <pikhq> Thereby adding executable code to the BIOS that will override its password check.
03:55:30 <Sgeo> Lymia, it's certainly possible to read it...
03:55:54 <Sgeo> At least for some BIOSes
03:56:20 <Sgeo> And if you can read it, surely you can change it in the normal way?
03:56:36 <Sgeo> (Note: I've done the reading bit before, on a 2000 era computer though)
03:57:46 <elliott> hmm, i want to implement an esolang
03:58:34 <Lymia> elliott, implement BrainFuck++
03:58:41 <Lymia> It's BrainFuck, except with an additional command ?
03:59:02 <Lymia> It reads a Brainfuck program from tape, until it finds a null byte, and sets that null byte to 0 if the program halts, or 1 if it dosn't.
03:59:17 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Define "Windows" person
03:59:17 <Sgeo> <Some Person> well, in this case, someone who would know what to do after attempting to reset a Windows 7 password failed and resulted in the system endlessly rebooting
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03:59:40 <Lymia> Sgeo, what did that person try?
04:00:00 <Sgeo> <Rambler> clearly i shouldn't have disabled SYSKEY using chntpw on a Windows 7 system
04:00:05 <Sgeo> Oops, forgot to redact their nick
04:00:09 <elliott> <Lymia> elliott, implement BrainFuck++
04:00:10 <elliott> <Lymia> It's BrainFuck, except with an additional command ?
04:00:10 <elliott> <Lymia> It reads a Brainfuck program from tape, until it finds a null byte, and sets that null byte to 0 if the program halts, or 1 if it dosn't.
04:00:12 <elliott> So it's like Spoon but not as fun.
04:00:20 <elliott> Sgeo: HAHAHAHA NOW I WILL FIND THEM
04:00:28 <zzo38> Why do they make programs that require a lot of other dependencies and so on to make it work, even when it could be done in a different way that can work otherwise?
04:00:41 <Sgeo> Lymia, are you capable of helping em?
04:00:55 <pikhq> zzo38: Alternately, personal taste.
04:00:58 <pikhq> zzo38: Quite often bad.
04:01:08 <Lymia> Not unless I tell them to write "reinstall"
04:01:22 * Lymia has no idea how she wrote what she did
04:01:31 <elliott> He sounds like an idiot, let's not help him.
04:02:09 <pikhq> He sounds like an idiot, let's kill him and eat his flesh.
04:05:29 <elliott> pikhq: You're still on Debian testing/Xfce, right?
04:05:38 <elliott> Can't stay on old Ubuntu forever.
04:07:55 <elliott> NihilistDandy: I'm sorry -- I can't type coherently over how hard I'm laughing.
04:08:07 <pikhq> Gentoo seems to have serious issues with maintaining reasonable levels of QA on their packaging.
04:08:08 <elliott> But I think I'll let the actual Gentoo deconvert (pikhq) handle this one.
04:08:49 <elliott> There's exactly one thing that would cause me to give Gentoo a shot -- if they supported non-standard configurations.
04:08:53 <elliott> You can't have a non-glibc system with Gentoo.
04:08:58 <elliott> You can't have a statically linked system with Gentoo.
04:09:07 <pikhq> elliott: s/can't have/can't have anymore/
04:09:09 <elliott> So what the fuck is the point?!?!?!
04:09:32 <pikhq> uclibc Gentoo ceased to be maintained in 2005, sadly.
04:09:38 <elliott> pikhq: Debian isn't frozen right now, right?
04:09:48 <pikhq> Debian just came out of a feature freeze.
04:10:00 <pikhq> It'll be another year or two before another one.
04:10:08 <elliott> Squeeze came out a while ago, dude :P
04:10:12 <pikhq> No, squeeze just came out in March.
04:10:22 <elliott> God, my perception of time is fucked.
04:10:49 <elliott> For some reason days are much longer right now. Not in the sense that they drag on, just in the sense that fucktons happen in a day.
04:10:58 <pikhq> Also, it seems *likely* that wheezy will see the introduction of a fourth Debian branch.
04:11:21 <elliott> So it'll be between testing and unstable?
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04:11:30 <elliott> Because that would be sooo sweat.
04:11:33 <pikhq> Which is, as you can imagine, intended to be an end-user rolling release system.
04:11:35 <elliott> It wouldn't be sweat at all.
04:11:44 <elliott> pikhq: Thus obsoleting Gregor's precious distro ;D ;D ;D
04:12:33 <pikhq> It's still debated how best to *do* this, but they seem to be based *around* starting with testing's practices of importing packages from unstable after a few days/weeks.
04:13:03 <pikhq> And, obviously, not being affected by freezes for stable.
04:13:09 <elliott> pikhq: So where would that leave testing? Updates from rolling trickle down except when in a feature freeze?
04:13:25 <elliott> Rolling comes from testing, but when testing is frozen, the testing policy is applied to sid, to pull updates into rolling?
04:13:41 <elliott> i.e. when testing is frozen, the sid->testing trickle-down policy switches to trickling-down into the agape mouth of rolling.
04:13:46 <elliott> Wow, that sentence went horrible half-way through.
04:13:47 <pikhq> Those are two different plans.
04:14:12 <pikhq> Another is to make testing be a release that only comes into existence for the sake of preparing a stable release.
04:14:24 <pikhq> Forked from rolling, of course.
04:14:57 <pikhq> Still *another* is to make a monthly Debian release.
04:15:30 <pikhq> And yet another is to reform processes so the freeze for release is really short.
04:15:50 <elliott> One might wonder whether the freeze actually helps.
04:16:05 <elliott> Would simply snapshotting testing regularly produce a lower-quality stable series?
04:16:28 <elliott> The freeze seems to be behind very odd choices like having a hybrid of two GNOME versions in the default install.
04:17:31 <pikhq> They usually have a decent number of release-blocking bugs in testing.
04:18:24 <elliott> Right, but maybe their perception of release-blocking bugs sucks :)
04:18:43 <elliott> I mean, testing isn't exactly problematic to run as your workstation OS, even if you need things not to break.
04:19:11 <pikhq> Think "broken updates".
04:20:10 <elliott> Still, I can't imagine a freeze needing longer than a few weeks.
04:20:30 <pikhq> Hence the "reforming process" proposal.
04:21:48 <elliott> COME TO ME PRECIOUS DEBIAN TESTING NETINST ISO.
04:22:09 <elliott> pikhq: I still find it hilarious that you can run the latest Debian on a four-eight-siz.
04:23:45 <elliott> * Pure [[Unlambda]], Unlambda without the `i` combinator and all IO operations, and lazily-evaluated data structures are used to define IO. For example, the Unlambda encoding of `[[1], (\x. [[2, x], 0])]` will be the [[cat program]] (1 means read line, 2 means print).
04:23:48 <elliott> way to reinvent lazy k badly
04:23:57 <pikhq> Likewise with Slackware.
04:24:18 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but Slackware is old-school.
04:27:07 <elliott> Hmm, Debian's automatic Xfce install is pretty "bloated", isn't it? IIRC it included a load of rubbish programs I didn't care about...
04:27:12 <elliott> I'll just install Xfce manually after the fact.
04:30:59 <pikhq> I dunno; I installed the base distro and then added packages from there.
04:32:04 * elliott considers refusing to use any timezone that isn't UTC.
04:32:06 <Sgeo> Is Chicken Scheme a reasonable language for implementing esolangs?
04:35:11 <elliott> "Immortality notwithstanding, I'm not going to live forever, you know."
04:36:47 <pikhq> True by law of excluded middle.
04:37:18 <elliott> I'm not sure the context would grant such a law; how restrictive and all that.
04:37:49 <pikhq> "I either will or will not be immortal" seems a restatement of that.
04:38:28 <elliott> Stop questioning the statements of an omniscient being.
04:38:37 <elliott> Foolish Debian installer, why would I want to create an ext[four] partition?
04:39:16 <Sgeo> You consider ext4 to suck, I take it?
04:39:50 <elliott> But JFS is pretty much the best filesystem.
04:39:52 * Sgeo donates some number row keys
04:39:57 <elliott> And ext4 is only a temporary measure.
04:40:03 <Sgeo> 12334567890#$%^&*()_+-=
04:40:03 <elliott> It's obsolete by design in favour of btrfs, an Oracle-controlled clusterfuck.
04:40:16 <elliott> Whereas JFS is in the trustworthy hands of ... uhhhh ... IBM.
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04:41:41 <Sgeo> AFK people are now joining channels. This is scary.
04:42:19 <zzo38> I prefer to write programs that require few or no dependencies and can work mostly or entirely by itself.
04:42:20 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott|afk.
04:43:01 <Lymia> I smell NIH syndrome.
04:43:02 <Sgeo> zzo38, I can imagine that that might be diffcult in some circumstances. What if you really needed to use, say, sqlite?
04:43:20 <Sgeo> Lymia, zzo38 bathes in NIH syndrome
04:43:23 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes there are some circumstances in which other things can be useful to include.
04:43:28 <Gregor> Or, y'know, a kernel :P
04:44:28 <elliott|afk> pikhq: BTW, the universe lasts a finite length of time, so it's actually true that the one saying it is both immortal (will live as long as time does) and won't live forever.
04:45:17 <zzo38> Like, in case of TeXnicard, its only dependency (other than the standard C stuff) is LodePNG, which is a single module, has no other dependencies, and is statically compiled into the program.
04:45:51 <Lymia> My policy on dependencies is "use it as long as you arn't adding too much size for too little functionality"
04:46:08 <zzo38> External utility programs for TeXnicard might or might not be like this; it depends on the program; other people can write according to what is good that way.
04:46:22 <elliott|afk> Lymia: do you say "arn't" frequently? I seem to have this idea that you do, but I'm not actually sure of that.
04:46:40 <zzo38> Lymia: Yes. Even in LodePNG there is few functions and it is possible to disable some of them before compiling (which, in fact, I did disable some of the functions I didn't need, before compiling).
04:47:18 <pikhq> I'd imagine that sqlite in particular would be about on par with LodePNG in zzo38's willingness to actually include it.
04:47:30 <elliott|afk> but sqlite is, like, four megs of source ;D
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04:48:11 <pikhq> i.e. smaller than libc.
04:50:04 <elliott|afk> You can even make it install lilo for you.
04:51:15 <elliott|afk> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&diff=22857&oldid=22850
04:51:23 <elliott|afk> oerjan, tirelessly reverting vandalism of the sandboz
04:51:26 <zzo38> I also usually make a program which is in a single module
04:51:27 <pikhq> Yeah; very, very rarely will you need to install via debootstrap.
04:52:27 <zzo38> I don't think there is much need to revert vandalism in the sandbox because it is only for testing anyways and whoever types a message next can delete the spam or whatever else is already there
04:54:10 <zzo38> I can tell you LodePNG is 280764 bytes of source (the source also includes documentation), and the .o file is 44011 bytes (when ANCILLARY_CHUNKS, UNKNOWN_CHUNKS, and ERROR_TEXT are disabled). The author of that program has also done some work with esoteric programming although that is irrelevant for purposes of LodePNG.
04:56:22 <pikhq> zzo38: The reason I suspect you'd be more willing to use sqlite than most programs is that it's both a relatively small library and so very, very functional. If you need a transactional database in your program (which, admittedly, seems like something you'd avoid), then sqlite is pretty much exactly what you want.
04:56:59 <elliott|afk> I'm really digging the debian-installer colour scheme... that's... why am I digging it.
04:57:47 -!- elliott|afk has changed nick to elliott.
04:58:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, yes. In most programs I do not need a database, although I could use it if it is necessary to have a transactional database.
05:03:27 <zzo38> And I cannot figure out how to shorten my C code implementing Deadfish, any more than it is. (At least not yet.)
05:04:02 <Sgeo> elliott, what?
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05:06:13 <Sgeo> Did I enter esoteric for the first time 4 years ago, or something?
05:06:17 <zzo38> What is happy four birthday?
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05:07:48 <Lymia> zzo38, rewrite it in Perl
05:07:48 <Sgeo> elliott, did you grep for Sgep too?
05:08:57 <zzo38> Lymia: Yes, it can do Perl code golf too. My AWK code is shorter it is 39 bytes long, so I am good at that one, but at C, I didn't manage to shorten it. Rewriting it in a different programming language doesn't solve it; it just solves it for a different programming language.
05:10:01 <zzo38> (Actually the current best Perl submission is 55, the best AWK is 39 (me; the other one is 40), the best C is 77 (mine is 81).
05:11:03 <zzo38> Lymia: *You* rewrite it in Perl if you are good at Perl to do it.
05:11:18 <Lymia> zzo38, you missed the joke.
05:12:32 <Sgeo> elliott, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2005-12-27
05:13:08 <Sgeo> I am not four years old.
05:13:40 <zzo38> But I assume you were in the past, isn't it?
05:14:32 <zzo38> Lymia: Are you good at Perl, though?
05:14:50 <Sgeo> Yes, 1983-1984
05:15:17 <Lymia> zzo38, don't really know the language.
05:15:33 <Sgeo> Didn't exist in 1984
05:15:40 <zzo38> I don't know much of Perl either, really
05:17:28 <zzo38> Nor do I know much of Objective-C other than that it is a strict superset of C (meaning when I send the C codes to the code golf, I also send it as Objective-C as well and it will work)
05:19:55 <Lymia> def deadfish(c):import re,sys;exec"i=0;"+"".join({"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"sys.stdout.write(str(i)+'\\n')","s":"i*=i"}[x]+";"for x in re.sub("[^idos]","",c))
05:19:59 <Lymia> Python deadfish golf!
05:20:34 <zzo38> Lymia: You can send submissions to http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Deadfish
05:21:35 <zzo38> Yes, except for shell scripts. And you can execute a single external program when using vi.
05:22:17 <zzo38> Shell scripts (Bash, fish, Zsh) always allow executing external programs, even if it says "exec is denied".
05:22:19 <Sgeo> "YouTube account Irratonalys has been terminated because we received multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement from claimants including:
05:23:57 <elliott> Like, only once, or only one program?
05:24:30 <zzo38> elliott: Only one program, and can only be executed once.
05:25:28 <zzo38> Well, you can also call the shell in order to make that one execution, I guess.
05:25:44 <fizzie> I'm not so sure "exec is denied" applies to Python's "exec" statement though, since it just runs Python code, not external programs. (Admittedly it can run code from file with it.)
05:27:22 <Lymia> I'm sure there are shorter methods than compiling deadfish to python.
05:27:45 <elliott> I thought only execfile could do that.
05:27:52 <Lymia> def deadfish(c):import re;exec"i=0\n"+"".join({"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"print i","s":"i*=i"}[x]+"\n"for x in re.sub("[^idos]","",c))
05:27:55 <elliott> Or do you mean exec open(...).read()?
05:28:00 <elliott> In which case that hardly counts.
05:28:21 <elliott> Lymia: for a start, s/\n/;/
05:28:46 <Lymia> elliott, it's shorter with the \n
05:28:47 <zzo38> Lymia: The problem does not require compiling Deadfish, it only requires providing the correct output when the Deadfish commands are given in input.
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05:28:52 <Lymia> Then I can use "print i" instead of "sys.blahblah"
05:28:59 <zzo38> So, interpreting can also work even if it is not compiled.
05:29:19 <Lymia> You can use print i; like that.
05:29:30 <Lymia> def deadfish(c):import re;exec"i=0;"+"".join({"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"print i","s":"i*=i"}[x]+";"for x in re.sub("[^idos]","",c))
05:29:42 <Lymia> def deadfish(c):import re;exec"i=0;".join({"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"print i","s":"i*=i"}[x]+";"for x in re.sub("[^idos]","",c))
05:29:44 <Lymia> You can do that too.
05:29:54 <elliott> Why not put ; before every statement?
05:29:57 <elliott> Then you can change i=0; to i=0
05:31:14 <zzo38> I would think that "exec is denied" does not apply to the Python "exec" command from what I can see the way it is being used. (But still, like I said, this would not be the same as that problem anyways)
05:31:17 <Lymia> join does not do what I think it does.
05:31:35 <Lymia> import urllib2;exec urllib2.urlopen("someaddress").read()
05:32:00 <zzo38> Lymia: Some system calls are denied. Including all internet access.
05:32:45 <Lymia> def deadfish(c):import re;exec"i=0"+"".join(";"+{"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"print i","s":"i*=i"}[x]for x in re.sub("[^idos]","",c))
05:32:58 <Lymia> Is there a shorter way to remove all other characters than re?
05:34:46 <zzo38> I don't know very well of Python, even though I have done some things in Python (some solitaire card games, and modifying a script for wiping hard drives)
05:36:04 <fizzie> elliott: I mean exec open(...); if you give it an open file object, it parses it as Python code until EOF and executes.
05:36:58 <elliott> pikhq_: Hey ho, testing is broken right now.
05:37:05 <Lymia> def deadfish(c):exec"i=0"+"".join(";"+{"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"print i","s":"i*=i"}[x] if x in"idos"else""for x in c)
05:37:09 <Lymia> Shortest I can get it right now.
05:37:31 <Lymia> def deadfish(c):exec"i=0"+"".join(";"+{"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"print i","s":"i*=i"}[x]if x in"idos"else""for x in c)
05:37:35 <Lymia> No wait, missed a space
05:39:49 <fizzie> Wouldn't .get(x,"") be much shorter than [x]if x in"idos"else"" ?
05:41:00 <Lymia> def deadfish(c):exec"i=0"+"".join(";"+{"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"print i","s":"i*=i"}.get(x,"")for x in c)
05:41:16 <Lymia> Would an interpretive approach be shorter than the code generation method?
05:41:22 <elliott> exec"i=0"+"".join(";"+{"i":"i+=1","d":"i-=1","o":"print i","s":"i*=i"}.get(x,"")for x in __import__('sys').stdout.read())
05:42:26 <Lymia> Not going to work.
05:42:32 <Lymia> That is, not using code generation.
05:42:36 <Lymia> Best way I can think of.
05:42:41 <Lymia> lambda:i=0 isn't valid Python
05:43:13 <elliott> Lymia: BTW, you need to handle wrapping.
05:43:20 <Lymia> elliott, wrapping?
05:43:40 <Sgeo> That's yet another Scheme in my possible choices
05:43:46 <zzo38> Try submitting to the anarchy golf. (I do not believe the "exec" command in Python is disallowed) It is not endless problem, it has deadline, so post it (I suggest always selecting "open code statistics") and it is revealed in 11 days (you can continue sending after the deadline, too)
05:44:01 <elliott> Lymia: Less than one or equal to two five six = set to 0.
05:44:32 <Lymia> I thought deadfish didn't overflow.
05:44:38 * Sgeo rapidly decides that "integrated Emacs-like editor" isn't worth... its.... incompletenessness
05:44:40 <Lymia> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Deadfish
05:44:49 <CakeProphet> Lymia: that lambda won't work because in Python assignment isn't an expression, and lambdas are single-expression functions
05:45:19 <elliott> Sgeo: How is MIT Scheme incomplete?
05:45:21 <Lymia> elliott, http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#Python < This suggests otherwise for me
05:45:31 <elliott> if accumlator == 256 or accumlator == -1:
05:45:40 <Sgeo> No module system currently
05:45:53 <elliott> Sgeo: there are portable module systems.
05:46:55 <Sgeo> Hmm, Chicken's hash tables are pulled from an SRFI?
05:47:04 <elliott> You mean they adhere to a standard.
05:47:36 <Sgeo> Whereas, Racket's... don't
05:48:39 <elliott> Why should it be expected to conform to SRFIs?
05:49:06 <CakeProphet> ...I'm not entirely sure I understand what exec is being used for.
05:49:41 <CakeProphet> generating Python code in python and executing it immediately is pretty much the same thing as writing an interpreter in Python, except less efficient.
05:50:05 <elliott> Firstly, it's likely to be more efficient, if anything.
05:50:15 <elliott> Secondly, the important thing is the size of the code, not the speed.
05:50:31 <Sgeo> I should try both in ... a lisp
05:50:36 * Sgeo is still on the fence
05:51:22 <CakeProphet> I disagree with your efficiency claim, but if it's not important for whatever is trying to be accomplished I won't debate it.
05:52:17 <elliott> CakeProphet: How is an interpreter less efficient than a compiler here?
05:52:41 * Sgeo also notes Gambit
05:52:47 <elliott> The comparison is basically null without any kind of control flow, but this is basically JIT vs. interpreter, and nobody argues JITs are slower than interpreters, especially when the compiler is /this/ simple.
05:54:12 <Sgeo> I'm not allowed to be metaphorical?
05:54:30 <elliott> See the thing is, with you it's usually not figurative ... and that's not what metaphorical means.
05:54:35 <CakeProphet> my argument is more on the basis that exec + string concatenation is always going to be slower than the Python code where you directly interpret it.
05:55:07 <elliott> CakeProphet: Well, CPython string concatenation is actually just as fast as joining (i.e. linear in number of strings to join) IIRC.
05:55:27 <elliott> Do you agree that that would not apply if the language had significant control flow?
05:55:40 <elliott> Interpretive overhead would surely come in there, as the control flow cannot be "directly" mapped to Python constructs in an interpreter.
05:57:05 <CakeProphet> you're saying that if the language had control flow constructs then this "JIT" solution would be even better?
05:57:19 <elliott> What's with the scare quotes around JIT?
05:57:54 <CakeProphet> Perhaps there's more code than the snippet I saw?
05:58:06 <elliott> Deadfish is a trivial language, why would there be?
05:58:12 <elliott> - Acts as an interpreter by
05:58:16 <elliott> - - Compiling code, and then
05:58:19 <elliott> - - Immediately executing it.
05:58:23 <elliott> [asterisk]Compiling code on the fly,
05:58:39 <elliott> This is exactly what that code snippet does, so yes, it's a Deadfish JIT, as opposed to a Deadfish compiler (s/exec/print/) or a Deadfish interpreter.
06:03:14 <monqy> Sgeo: way to ask #scheme for advice on what lisp dialect to take
06:03:20 <CakeProphet> yeah, it's a JIT. But this approach makes all the typical advantages of JIT compilation no longer apply, basically. Also, join is much faster than string concatenation, but you don't use much string concatenation so it's not much of an issue. I think the main reason that the JIT in this case is less efficient than a interpreter written in Python is because of how exec works. But yeah, if you want to minimize lines of cod
06:03:41 <Sgeo> monqy, I was hoping they'd answer "Which Scheme" rather than "Scheme or CL?"
06:04:23 <monqy> Sgeo: then perhaps you should have left common lisp out. the way you phrased your question made it like you lumped all the schemes together
06:04:29 <elliott> CakeProphet: join is not faster than string concatenation. That applies in other Python implementations but not CPython.
06:04:42 <elliott> Also, you got cut off after "minimize lines of co".
06:04:54 <monqy> "lines of cod" for me
06:04:56 <elliott> monqy: Why have you lead me into a channel of inevitable cringe?
06:05:06 <zzo38> "lines of cod" for me, too
06:05:11 <CakeProphet> If you want to minimize lines of code, then you've accomplished that. :)
06:05:26 <elliott> But yeah, no, join = repeated string concatenation in CPython.
06:05:30 <elliott> At least asymptomatically if nothing else.
06:05:37 <Sgeo> elliott, so far, the only thing that you've seen said that could possibly be cringeworthy is what I said
06:06:01 <elliott> 05:53:55 <Sgeo> I'm getting dizzy trying to decide between various Schemes, and Common Lisp
06:06:21 <Sgeo> Or you could logread, I guess
06:07:01 <CakeProphet> I've always been told and read that in CPython join is always a better solution than a loop with repeated string concatenation. Essentially, the more you rely on builtin functions and less on Python code the more efficient your Python code will be.
06:07:26 <elliott> Well, uh, there may be an incredibly MINOR difference.
06:07:42 <elliott> But the reason it's recommended to join instead is because Jython and other implementations have linear join, but exponential repeated-concatenation.
06:08:02 <elliott> The only difference with CPython will be a (probably tiny) constant factor.
06:08:22 <elliott> (x + y + z) and "".join((x, y, z)) are pretty much going to be equivalent.
06:11:50 <elliott> But like I said, not in Jython.
06:12:35 <Lymia> 72 is the current Python recod.
06:12:39 <Lymia> I'm going to need more work.
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06:12:56 <Lymia> The dict is already 53 chars
06:14:39 <Sgeo> I should implement an esolang in something
06:14:42 <Sgeo> Perhaps Racket
06:14:57 <elliott> Sgeo: OH MY GOD STOP REPEATING THE SAME THING IN FIFTY DIFFERENT WAYS
06:15:09 <Sgeo> I'm actually going to DO IT though
06:16:59 <CakeProphet> found this: http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2011/2/1/exec-in-python/
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06:18:38 <elliott> pikhq_: I sure want Debian rolling round about now.
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06:20:18 <CakeProphet> elliott: hmm, okay, so I think you were right actually. I was assuming that exec was always slower than regular Python, but it's only slower if you make repeated execs using a string (because it parses and byte-code compiles the program each call)
06:20:40 <CakeProphet> in that case you would want to use compile() first and then exec that.
06:20:58 <elliott> The only question is, how long a Deadfish program do you need for the compilation overhead to go away? :-)
06:22:13 <CakeProphet> wouldn't increasing the length of the source program increase the compilation overhead? or am I missing something?
06:22:44 <elliott> True. But it'd also increase the overhead of the while loop of an interpreter... :-P
06:22:59 <Lymia> import sys;i=0;exec"".join(dict(i="i+=1;",d="i-=1;",o="print i;",s="i*=i;").get(x,"")for x in sys.stdin.read())
06:23:03 <Lymia> Any way to shorten this?
06:23:12 <Lymia> I'm starting to think that another approach is needed.
06:23:54 <elliott> why have you put ; at the end again
06:25:02 <elliott> Lymia: import sys;i=0;exec";".join(dict(i="i+=1;",d="i-=1;",o="print i;",s="i*=i;").get(x,"")for x in sys.stdin)
06:25:10 <elliott> remove the ;s from the end :D
06:25:18 <elliott> import sys;i=0;exec";".join(dict(i="i+=1",d="i-=1",o="print i",s="i*=i").get(x,"")for x in sys.stdin)
06:25:43 <Lymia> If you write ;; in Python, you get a syntax error.
06:25:53 <Lymia> You'd need to have .get(x,"somekindofnoop") then
06:25:58 <CakeProphet> using map instead of a generator expression might shave a few bytes.
06:26:05 <Lymia> CakeProphet, checked, nope.
06:26:11 <elliott> import sys;i=0;exec";".join(dict(i="i+=1",d="i-=1",o="print i",s="i*=i").get(x,"0")for x in sys.stdin)
06:28:26 <CakeProphet> actually doesn't iterating on a file descriptor iterate by line?
06:28:27 <Lymia> Could you make it even shorter with reduce?
06:28:42 <elliott> CakeProphet: yes, but the anagolf challenge uses single lines
06:28:48 <elliott> maybe the newlines will break it...
06:29:00 <elliott> import sys;i=0;exec";".join(dict(i="i+=1",d="i-=1",o="print i",s="i*=i").get(x[0],"0")for x in sys.stdin)
06:29:05 <Lymia> elliott, using sys.stdin instead of sys.stdin() gives me 0;0;0;0;0;0
06:29:20 <elliott> sys.stdin() won't do anything...
06:29:24 <elliott> that's why i just fixed it
06:30:27 <Lymia> elliott, http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Deadfish
06:30:33 <Lymia> The dialect used here dosn't wrap.
06:30:41 <elliott> Yes it DOES. Deadfish wraps weirdly.
06:30:47 <elliott> You can go /over/ with squaring.
06:30:56 <elliott> import sys;i=0;exec";i*=i!=256;".join(dict(i="i+=1",d="i-=1",o="print i",s="i*=i").get(x[0],"0")for x in sys.stdin)
06:31:06 <elliott> Just needs negative handling.
06:31:14 <elliott> Lymia: "If you decrement zero you get zero and if the result ever becomes 256 it should change to zero immediately." --the challenge description itself
06:32:00 <Sgeo> It should _not_ take this long to implement HQ9+
06:32:11 <monqy> maybe you're doing it wrong
06:32:15 <elliott> Sgeo: obviously the fault is with the implementation and not you.
06:32:30 <CakeProphet> I was under the impression that iterating on a file descrpitor automatically strips the newline.
06:32:40 <elliott> CakeProphet: seemingly not :)
06:33:12 <Sgeo> elliott, I barely know Racket
06:33:23 <Lymia> 1twobit720.123511/05/15 02:36:540B / 34B / 35B
06:33:23 <Lymia> 2leonid720.094111/05/16 09:47:110B / 39B / 24B
06:33:23 <Lymia> 3hallvabo730.086611/05/15 04:53:210B / 31B / 38B
06:33:28 <Lymia> These are the top for Python right now.
06:33:54 <Lymia> Can more byte shaving be done?
06:34:02 <elliott> Probably, but it'll require more ingenuity.
06:34:05 <CakeProphet> I would say using dict takes more bytes than {} syntax.
06:34:09 <elliott> What I am saying is, cheating.
06:34:29 <Lymia> {} has a bunch of " around
06:34:37 <Lymia> I wish I could get rid of the quotes
06:34:42 <Lymia> around the values too.
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06:35:00 <Lymia> CakeProphet, it's perl.
06:35:02 <Lymia> Of course it's shorter.
06:35:10 <Lymia> elliott, binary strings?
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06:35:32 <Lymia> Can we do anything with that?
06:36:07 <elliott> this is way too small for compression to help
06:36:37 <zzo38> If you cheat, you can post with (cheat) after your name, you can also post noncheating without (cheat) and you can do similar things if you want multiple submissions for any reason. One reason might be, you might want binary, you might want one without binary, or some symbols only, or alphanumerics only, etc
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06:36:48 <Sgeo> What's SLIME's debugging like? Because the way DrRacket does this is starting to tick me off
06:37:00 <elliott> Sgeo: only as good as your Lisp's, obviously.
06:37:09 <elliott> I don't know if there's a Racket port of SLIME, though.
06:37:16 <zzo38> Like see Postscript they have one (bin) and one text
06:37:25 <elliott> There's a Schemefortyeight port of SLIME but it is out of date.
06:37:47 <Sgeo> elliott, I meant, I'm considering flipping over to Common Lisp
06:38:00 <Sgeo> Isn't for/list supposed to return a list?
06:38:12 <coppro> for starters, you aren't coding scheme
06:39:01 <zzo38> Also note that for the problem, it doesn't matter how your program treats "h" as long as it does not output anything or cause infinite loop
06:39:09 <elliott> coppro: it's fairly obvious he isn't coding scheme since he's using racket not a scheme
06:39:11 <CakeProphet> if you could use raw_input instead of sys.stdin you could remove the import line
06:39:22 <CakeProphet> but I don't see a way to do that without introducing more bytes.
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06:40:43 <monqy> Sgeo: http://docs.racket-lang.org/search/index.html?q=for/list
06:40:59 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/tx8g8qrhsd4ggssrspzdg
06:41:12 <elliott> i mean i'm not sure 90 percent of psox actually counted as code
06:41:22 <Sgeo> It's acting like for/list isn't returning anything
06:41:26 <elliott> (error "Not implemented yet"))
06:41:26 <elliott> (error "Not implemented yet"))
06:41:49 <elliott> Sgeo: do you put do- before all of your function names?
06:42:14 <elliott> it implements a function after all
06:43:09 <elliott> (list->string lst) → string?
06:43:09 <elliott> Returns a new mutable string whose content is the list of characters in lst. That is, the length of the string is (length lst), and the sequence of characters in lst is the same sequence in the result string.
06:43:18 <elliott> look at that, Sgeo is violating a function contract
06:43:27 <CakeProphet> ...how on earth did someone get a smaller source size than that.
06:43:47 <monqy> a different approach, perhaps
06:43:52 <Sgeo> elliott, oh... but that manages to not even fix the problem
06:44:03 <elliott> Sgeo: have you considered you might have other problems in your code
06:44:11 <monqy> what if sgeo is the problem
06:44:55 <monqy> Sgeo: are Bink and Bonk debug code
06:46:05 <Sgeo> The for/list is still giving void
06:46:19 <Sgeo> (Just replaced list->string with string-append*)
06:46:28 <elliott> have you tried evaluating the for/list in the repl
06:46:57 <Sgeo> it returned properly, iirc (bloody DrRacket cleared it out already)
06:47:11 <monqy> Welcome to Racket v5.1.1.
06:47:11 <elliott> yet you find it unthinkable that the problem could be in the appending and displaying parts
06:47:17 <elliott> rather than the for/list part
06:47:40 <monqy> oh nuts this thing can't handle arrow keys
06:48:06 <elliott> monqy: quack for emacs = good stuff
06:48:15 <elliott> special integration with racket's repl
06:48:20 <elliott> http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/screenshot.png
06:48:26 <Sgeo> elliott, no, but you pointed out an additional problem
06:48:35 <monqy> too bad I don't use emacs
06:48:49 <elliott> monqy: just start emacs to use the repl >:)
06:48:57 <Sgeo> list->string wouldn't wor properly
06:49:09 <monqy> I think I'll edit my lines in vim then paste them into the repl
06:49:16 <elliott> it's that he thinks characters are strings
06:49:25 <elliott> unless [hash]\X is equal? to "X"
06:49:52 <monqy> > (equal? #\X "X")
06:49:53 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `#\'
06:50:22 <Sgeo> Although I kind of.. was thinking of that >.>
06:51:08 <elliott> fuck why am i helping you figure out obvious bugs in your ten lines of code
06:51:28 <monqy> I should see if I can implement hq9+ better than sgeo
06:52:04 <elliott> try doing it while being a cat
06:52:20 <monqy> I'm really tired and I don't think I've ever actually done anything in racket before
06:52:23 <monqy> is that good enough
06:56:52 <Sgeo> + is now implemented
06:58:25 <Sgeo> This is pathetic how can I not find this function
06:58:34 <elliott> Sgeo i swear to god you literally get stupider as time goes on
06:58:41 <Sgeo> elliott, no I do not have a bug in +
06:58:44 <elliott> im quite honsetly unable to think of a single other possibility
06:59:29 <Sgeo> I just can't seem to find the function to make a nice list of numbers
07:00:25 <elliott> monqy: i dont want to live on this planet any more
07:00:34 <olsner> Sgeo: at this rate you're going to have to start doing python programming soon
07:00:58 <monqy> Sgeo: what do you mean a nice list of numbers
07:01:03 <monqy> Sgeo: do you want it to greet you
07:01:13 <monqy> Sgeo: (I'm afraid that's not possible)
07:02:44 <coppro> elliott: my theory is Sgeo wrote PSOX before his university untaught him programming
07:03:06 <Sgeo> I think my accumulator is nicer than a naive one
07:03:13 <Sgeo> Although I guess nothing actually makes it naive
07:03:17 <elliott> you realise the accumulator does nothing
07:03:22 <elliott> coppro: psox was 90 percent function decorators
07:04:12 <Sgeo> elliott, I consider that cheating
07:04:30 <elliott> Sgeo: look at all these shits i'm giving
07:04:39 <monqy> (define (do-inc-accum) #f) ; optimized out
07:04:47 <elliott> this is like a shit tornado
07:04:51 <elliott> im not giving them to anyone
07:05:13 <olsner> that's a whole lotta shit to be giving
07:05:19 <monqy> what if I put another do in there
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07:06:18 <elliott> olsner: i'm giving none of the shits
07:08:34 * Sgeo would really appreciate CL's format
07:08:42 <monqy> what does that mean
07:08:57 <elliott> http://docs.racket-lang.org/search/index.html?q=format
07:09:28 <monqy> what if he wants common lisp's format specifically
07:09:30 <monqy> not dirty racket's format
07:09:45 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:RichardPrime&curid=3901&diff=22899&oldid=22898
07:09:52 <Sgeo> monqy, thank you
07:10:10 <elliott> I was the one who fucking searched and linked it.
07:10:15 <Sgeo> monqy, be correct in knowing what I wanted.
07:10:17 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, I saw.
07:10:24 <monqy> I thought I was mocking you
07:13:19 <Sgeo> DrRacket: That's just great. Tell me an error, but hilight the text in red such that I can't see s-exprs easily
07:14:10 <elliott> monqy: will this horror ever end.....
07:14:32 <monqy> Sgeo: I hope you know you don't have to use drracket
07:19:07 <CakeProphet> elliott: so is the input for the deadfish code all on one line or is it seperated by lines?
07:19:35 <elliott> CakeProphet: in the anagolf challenge it is all on separate lines
07:20:23 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/l7sb1cgdx6iy0ee7wu3vw
07:20:49 <monqy> I'm still working on mine it's going to be so rad
07:20:53 <elliott> thank fuck Sgeo has implemented hqnine+
07:20:56 <elliott> now well never be without it
07:20:59 <elliott> (set! accum (+ accum 1)))))
07:21:00 <monqy> it uses case instead of cond
07:21:05 <elliott> oh its that scheme idiom thats obsoleted in racket
07:21:16 <elliott> youre meant to use the fucking module system for encapsulation instead
07:21:26 <monqy> it also uses continuations
07:21:28 <monqy> that's how rad it is
07:21:45 <elliott> (format "~a bottle~a of beer on the wall.~%~a bottle~a of beer.~%Take one down, pass it around,~%~a bottle~a of beer on the wall!~%" bottles s bottles s (- bottles 1) last-s)))))
07:21:48 <elliott> theres no exclamation mark
07:21:53 <elliott> and you need "no more bottles" at the end
07:22:32 <monqy> I'm going to print it out line by line such as not to have stupid concatenation overhead but the core of my interpreter will be pure
07:23:11 <elliott> make it PRINT the lyrics out
07:23:18 <elliott> im sure racket has a library for that
07:23:29 <monqy> this would be a good idea if I had a printer
07:23:36 <elliott> just use a pdf printer or similar to test it
07:24:54 <Sgeo> Why does pastie weirdly color the ( in the lambda arglist?
07:25:05 <elliott> monqy: im going to start crying soon
07:25:37 <monqy> don't worry I know everything ever about pastie
07:25:59 <monqy> Sgeo: presumably it's broken
07:26:23 <elliott> racket's contract stuff looks cool mind you
07:42:03 <CakeProphet> import sys;exec"x=0"+"%256".join(dict(i="+1",d="-1",o="+0;print x;x=x",s="+0;x*=x;x=x").get(x[0],"") for x in sys.stdin)
07:42:08 <elliott> CakeProphet: modulo is wrong
07:42:12 <elliott> and you haven't handled negative
07:42:13 <CakeProphet> I haven't like... tried to run it. probably should
07:42:28 <elliott> and x=x breaks the syntax there...
07:42:36 <elliott> CakeProphet: you need ==[twofivesix], not modulo
07:43:00 <elliott> x[asterisk]=x[exclamation mark]=[twofivesix];x[asterisk]=x>0
07:43:03 <elliott> that should handle wrapping
07:43:36 <elliott> anyway i think that's actually one or two bytes longer than our last attempt
07:44:01 <CakeProphet> yeah all the hackery to get o and s to work
07:46:49 <CakeProphet> initially I was just going to replace s with **2 but I realized that would conflict with operator precedence.
07:48:01 <elliott> dunno about that middle one
07:48:04 <elliott> but yeah the first one will parse wrong
07:48:36 <elliott> also you need parens around ("x=0"+"%256") in your old version
07:49:08 <CakeProphet> on only the %256 was being the join delimeter.
07:49:39 <elliott> so it parses something like
07:50:03 <CakeProphet> x = 0 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 - 1 -1 -1 -1 ...+0;print x;x=x + 1 + 1 +1 +1 ...;
07:50:04 <monqy> I accidentally ditched continuations for returning multiple values. oops.
07:52:48 <CakeProphet> yeah so that approach breaks down when you start applying a bunch of != >0, **2, etc to the operator chain because of order of operations
07:53:57 <lifthrasiir> uhm, so increasing 255 should be 0 but squaring 255 (or anything larger than 15) won't clip?
07:54:37 <elliott> its a magical language filled with idiocy and happiness
07:58:21 <lifthrasiir> wait, increasing 255 is nop, but increasing 256 sets the accumulator 257????
07:58:46 <elliott> every cycle, if the value is two-five-six or less than zero, it's set to zero
07:59:01 <elliott> this also means that squaring to get two-five-seven and then decrementing goes to 0
07:59:30 <elliott> pikhq_: xfce tips sure are of high quality - "Theres a volume changer plugin for the panel available. Its name is xfce[four]-mixer."
07:59:36 <CakeProphet> before I tried the operator chaining approach I decided it would be a good idea to import re;f=re.subn;...
07:59:45 <CakeProphet> and then chain together a bunch of substitutes. :)
07:59:56 <CakeProphet> but I don't think it was much different, and it didn't handle the wrapping.
08:00:32 <elliott> Sgeo: is it done yet?????????///////////
08:01:24 <monqy> I'm teaching it how to count beer
08:01:58 <monqy> after this I will try remembering my original design and write that
08:02:04 <monqy> because it was so much better this
08:04:03 <monqy> I can hardly remember what I'm trying to do now
08:04:10 <Sgeo> elliott, I haven't corrected the 99 bottle of beer issues
08:04:14 <CakeProphet> interestingly enough if you take (ord(x[0])-100)/5 then d, i, o, and s translate to 0, 1, 2, and 3
08:04:16 <Sgeo> Nor am I working on it
08:04:30 <monqy> Sgeo: apathy or spite
08:05:06 <Sgeo> Hmm, considering that I want to try writing the same in Chicken and CL, maybe I should finish it
08:05:07 <elliott> Sgeo: ahahahfahafjknsdfkgsfdknlg,m
08:05:10 <Sgeo> Not tonight though
08:05:24 <elliott> CakeProphet: that's a lot of characters in itself though
08:05:31 <elliott> but you could use a list like that
08:05:38 <elliott> unfortunately you would have to handle invalid chars /
08:06:05 <elliott> (literal newline deliberate, one less char than \n)
08:06:09 <elliott> (is that valid in python...)
08:07:54 <CakeProphet> he'll read your email in his comfortable Google office chair.
08:08:44 <lifthrasiir> i wonder others are using the same approach?
08:09:02 <CakeProphet> I think 84 was one of the smallest on that list, if I recall.
08:09:17 <elliott> CakeProphet: complain to guido? why would i want to talk to him...
08:09:22 <elliott> he doesn't even know what tail call optimisation is
08:09:45 <elliott> lifthrasiir: I'm suspecting the 72 byte program cheats heavily somehow
08:10:03 <CakeProphet> elliott: well, you could present your case against Python in the hopes that he would find reason in your plea and make changes to Python 3.5 or 4 or something like that.
08:10:04 <lifthrasiir> elliott, what is your best (without your supposed cheats)?
08:10:34 <elliott> lifthrasiir: well, we're working together... we've got it down to a hundred bytes or so
08:10:47 <elliott> don't suppose you're willing to share your version? :P
08:10:47 <lifthrasiir> i'm not sure, but it seems that 75+-2 is certainly possible
08:10:57 <elliott> CakeProphet: meh, much easier to just erase him from the history books instead
08:11:30 <lifthrasiir> well, the first rule of all string-to-code golfing: abuse exec.
08:11:34 <CakeProphet> I once held Python in high esteem... but that was back when I only knew Python and not much else. :P
08:11:36 <monqy> this sucks I'm getting sleep
08:11:51 <monqy> overengineering is difficult when tired
08:12:17 <elliott> lifthrasiir: we already are :)
08:12:48 <CakeProphet> in Perl, it's probably something like "abuse regex"
08:13:08 <CakeProphet> but that's always the first rule in... any Perl programming.
08:13:10 <lifthrasiir> elliott, and also take a look at how the input is read.
08:13:20 <elliott> lifthrasiir: already have :)
08:13:49 <CakeProphet> honestly golfing in Perl sounds way more fun than Python.
08:14:00 <lifthrasiir> did you try all possible input methods (i.e. sys.stdin, sys.stdin.read(), os.read, input, raw_input etc.)?
08:14:12 <elliott> well, sys.stdin was the one that was easiest with our code structure
08:14:17 <elliott> the others would involve a separate while loo
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08:14:37 <elliott> i='n+=one';d='n-=one';code+=input()
08:14:59 <elliott> CakeProphet: can i have a digit one, my number keys are broken :)
08:15:06 <Lymia> I can't figure out how to get it shorter.
08:15:35 <Lymia> elliott, what are your current ideas?
08:16:24 <CakeProphet> I like it. Though it's uncertain whether or not it will be a smaller result.
08:16:34 <elliott> someone type an asterisk >:(
08:16:43 <Lymia> That is evil, and might actually work.
08:16:52 <Lymia> How do you deal with characters not in the set?
08:16:54 <Lymia> We need to ignore those.
08:16:58 <CakeProphet> the tricky part will be filtering all of the non-important characters.
08:17:04 <elliott> h is the only non-command char not used
08:17:11 <elliott> CakeProphet: i'm not messing with you my number keys really are broken
08:17:16 <elliott> ok someone type two-five-six
08:18:06 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=1';o='print n';s='n*=n';h=c='';while 1:exec input()+';n*=(n!=256)*(n>0)'
08:18:22 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=1';o='print n';s='n*=n';h=c=''
08:18:22 <elliott> while 1:exec input()+';n*=(n!=256)*(n>0)'
08:18:55 <CakeProphet> you can shorten that some more with tuple assignment
08:19:14 <Lymia> This would be cheating, right.
08:19:22 <Lymia> Dosn't work in the general case.
08:19:34 <Lymia> Do we only need the shown examples to work
08:19:53 <elliott> hmm, i don't think so CakeProphet
08:20:38 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=1';o='print n';s='n*=n';h=c=''
08:20:38 <CakeProphet> well you trade each semicolon for two commas, but then you get to take away a = for each one. Probably breaks even.
08:20:38 <elliott> while 1:exec input()+';n*=(n!=256)*n>0'
08:21:00 <elliott> useless c assignment there
08:21:07 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=1';o='print n';s='n*=n';h=''
08:21:07 <elliott> while 1:exec input()+';n*=(n!=256)*n>0'
08:21:43 <elliott> lifthrasiir: is our new approach reasonable for such a low count...?
08:22:15 <elliott> Lymia: apparently its ok to ignore it zzo said
08:22:17 <elliott> its not actually part of deadfish
08:22:30 <Lymia> Only occurs at the end.
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08:23:28 <Lymia> You can only get below zero with d, right?
08:23:41 <Lymia> elliott, what's the current code?
08:23:45 <elliott> Lymia: h=n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=1';o='print n';s='n*=n';while 1:exec input()+';n*=(n!=256)*n>0'
08:23:48 <elliott> where the ; before while is a newline
08:23:51 <elliott> it's just like this to count bytes easier
08:24:17 <Lymia> Does Python have an infinite generator?
08:24:25 <Lymia> And how are we exiting this loop?
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08:24:45 <elliott> h=n=0;i=d=s='n+=1';d[1]='-';s[1:]='*=n';o='print n';while 1:exec input()+';n*=(n!=256)*n>0'
08:24:51 <CakeProphet> you could also define your own with a function that uses yield. Probably even more bytes than the import though.
08:24:55 <Lymia> elliott, is this allowed?
08:25:09 <lifthrasiir> elliott, python's string is immutable, i think?
08:25:15 <elliott> lifthrasiir: oh damn, right :(
08:26:37 <elliott> h=n=0;i='n+=n!=255';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=n';while 1:exec input()
08:26:44 <elliott> s needs to handle sqrt two-five-six
08:26:48 <Lymia> We've hit a brick wall.
08:27:22 <elliott> h=n=0;i='n+=n!=255';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n**=1+(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
08:28:02 <elliott> h=n=0;i='n+=n!=255';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=2*(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
08:28:05 <Lymia> h only occurs at the end.
08:28:13 <Lymia> n=0;i='n+=n!=255';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=2*(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
08:28:19 <Lymia> We can make it halt by erroring.
08:28:25 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=n!=255';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=2*(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
08:28:34 <elliott> this is going to get very difficult very quickly
08:28:39 <Lymia> Who does credit go to?
08:28:48 <elliott> I'll submit this version as #esoteric
08:29:29 <Lymia> How does that work?
08:29:29 <elliott> then we can try and shorten it further ofc
08:29:34 <elliott> Lymia: boolean->int conversion
08:29:36 <elliott> false is zero, true is one
08:30:14 <Lymia> Do any use this behvaior?
08:30:25 <elliott> its too hard to tell from reading them
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08:32:16 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1+(n=255)*(-n-1)';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=2*(n!=16)'
08:33:15 <Lymia> Are we allowed to use the file name as input?
08:33:21 <Lymia> And is the file name preserved?
08:33:38 <elliott> my squaring thing is borked
08:35:44 <elliott> n=255;i='n+=1+(n==255)*-255';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=n*(n!=16)'
08:36:52 <elliott> back up to eighty seven bytes
08:37:14 <Lymia> Here's a six for you
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08:38:17 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1+(n==255)*-256';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=n*(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
08:38:35 <elliott> cmp(n,twofivefive) might help
08:38:44 <elliott> abs(cmp(n,twofivefive))... no, too long
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08:39:04 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=abs(cmp(n,255))';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=n*(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
08:39:42 <Lymia> Is this fully functional?
08:40:00 <elliott> lifthrasiir: throw us a bone? :P
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08:41:25 <CakeProphet> the only thing I can think of would be to find another solution and compare its bytecount
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08:41:42 <lifthrasiir> i'm now at 73B, but i think it is certainly cheating
08:41:54 <lifthrasiir> as it fails to implement the full Deadfish spec
08:41:59 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, does it work?
08:42:31 <elliott> lifthrasiir: cheating is ok :)
08:42:32 <lifthrasiir> the examples do not test one behavior of the interpreter
08:43:06 <elliott> if thats not tested we could save *(n!=16)
08:43:16 <Lymia> oddoioidososisosiodsiodsioissiosoh
08:43:22 <Lymia> This is one of the examples.
08:43:34 <elliott> lifthrasiir: then i am not sure what behaviour you refer to :-P
08:43:34 <Lymia> Tests squaring to 256
08:43:40 <elliott> since that is baically all behaviours
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08:45:16 <Lymia> I figured it out too
08:45:47 <Lymia> elliott, what is the longest check?
08:45:52 <Lymia> ;i='n+=abs(cmp(n,255))';
08:45:57 <elliott> you already said that was tested before
08:45:59 <Lymia> We can just increment.
08:46:07 <Lymia> Squaring to 256 was.
08:46:26 <elliott> ok, now to shave off two bytes
08:46:58 <lifthrasiir> FYI my version is: i='h+=1';d='h-=0<h';s='h*=(h!=16)*h';o='print h';h=0;while 1:exec input()
08:47:00 <Sgeo> There is now an L programming language: http://home.cc.gatech.edu/tony/uploads/61/Lpaper.htm
08:47:07 <Lymia> I guess I was wrong.
08:47:15 <lifthrasiir> elliott, no, i'm also figuring out how to shave off two bytes
08:47:35 <elliott> the loop is pretty much perfect
08:47:37 <Lymia> Can we shave off the h=0?
08:47:47 <elliott> ignore lifthrasiir's lie version ;D
08:47:51 <elliott> ok using h is actually clever
08:48:00 <Lymia> It fails either way.
08:48:09 <Lymia> Just due to different reasons.
08:48:20 <Lymia> We implemented it better.
08:48:23 <Lymia> Ours crashes with a key not found.
08:48:57 <Lymia> Can we do anything to o?
08:49:06 <Sgeo> And for no clear reason, they choose ` for strings and " for comments
08:49:21 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo, so strings start with ` and ends with '?
08:49:34 <Sgeo> Start and end with `
08:50:10 <elliott> Lymia: maybe if we shorten this
08:51:04 <elliott> n=0;i='+1';d='-(n>0)';o=';print n';s='*(n!=16)';while 1:exec 'n=n'+input()
08:51:34 <Lymia> I'm thinking of how it reduces mathematically.
08:51:35 <CakeProphet> you have to watch operator precedence I discovered..
08:52:18 <Lymia> n*=n*(n!=16) -> n=n*n*(n!=16) -> n=(n**2)*(n!=16)
08:52:27 <Lymia> No mathematical tricks.
08:52:37 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=n*(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
08:52:37 <elliott> n=0;i='+1';d='-(n>0)';o=';print n';s='*(n!=16)';while 1:exec'n=n'+input()
08:52:44 <CakeProphet> oh and you have to make o='+0;print n;n=n'
08:52:46 <Sgeo> I think I'm liking L though
08:52:55 <elliott> n=0;i='+1';d='-(n>0)';o=';print n';s='*(n!=16)';while 1:exec'n=n'+input()
08:53:01 <Lymia> Any way to abuse 0**0==1?
08:54:43 <CakeProphet> any chance doing a list lookup with ord(input()-100
08:54:53 <elliott> CakeProphet: beep, input() evals the line
08:55:04 <elliott> we could assign indexes to them or something and call lambdas but... no
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08:56:46 <Lymia> Here's where it zeros.
08:58:00 <elliott> lifthrasiir: not gonna divulge the secret, are you >:D
08:58:10 <elliott> Lymia: CakeProphet: TOGETHER WE WILL ACHIEVE THIS
08:58:12 <elliott> what are you talking about
08:58:16 <lifthrasiir> haha, well i don't tell you, as it will spoil the fun ;)
08:58:23 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, how clever is it?
08:58:38 <lifthrasiir> Lymia, not beyond your expectation. it's actually quite simple.
08:58:46 <Lymia> Is there some hax we can reduce it farther with?
08:59:07 <lifthrasiir> as far as i see, it seems very hard. it might be the tight minimum.
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08:59:27 <elliott> kolgomorov complexity of deadfish-without-increment-checking :)
09:01:37 <elliott> lifthrasiir: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:01:50 <elliott> i refuse to credit us as hash-esoteric
09:02:02 <elliott> hash-esoteric-apart-from-that-lifthrasiir-guy-who-was-just-horrible-and-kept-secrets >:D
09:02:15 <Lymia> If I reduce it below lifthrasiir, I'm going to keep secrets too.
09:02:27 <elliott> whatever happened to teamwork :(
09:02:29 <CakeProphet> actually ord(raw_input)/5-20 would be smaller than subtracting 100 and then dividing by 5, still I doubt the replacement will beat the 12 characters that you get to remove from doing so.
09:02:40 <lifthrasiir> hey, who was the person that pointed out exec input() will work? :3
09:03:10 <elliott> actually you just said input(), I worked out the exec() part myself :-D
09:03:34 <elliott> I'M GLAD WE'RE IN AGREEMENT
09:03:40 <elliott> it's not as simple as just shaving one byte off is it :D
09:03:49 <lifthrasiir> i always thought the golfing consists of two parts: applying the standard techniques, and brute-forcing.
09:04:33 <lifthrasiir> no matter clever you are, you have to experiment with several possible approaches (and possible sub-approaches within them)
09:04:42 <elliott> hmm...maybe that sixteen check could be simplified
09:04:57 <Lymia> http://docs.python.org/modindex.html
09:05:02 <Lymia> Let's raze the earth.
09:05:19 <elliott> no modules can help us now
09:06:04 <lifthrasiir> only page you have to keep is http://docs.python.org/library/functions
09:06:47 <elliott> memoryview() is the key to solving ALL OUR PROBLEMS
09:08:29 <Lymia> I would try to get rid of those quotes if I had any idea how.
09:08:34 <Lymia> I don't think we can.
09:10:20 <lifthrasiir> huh, did anagolf have a setpid interface? that will make a better use of $$ (for example).
09:10:29 <elliott> but we can't use that in python :)
09:10:36 <elliott> lifthrasiir: quick, give us an excruciatingly vague hint to shave a byte off this :D
09:11:55 <CakeProphet> I doubt property() is of any use to us, but the idea is interesting.
09:12:09 <lifthrasiir> elliott, for one byte, i think you were on the better track than me to point out where to shave off. for other one byte, it will follow naturally from the first one.
09:12:34 <elliott> ok so trying to simplify n*=n*(n!=16) somehow...
09:13:43 <Lymia> n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n**=2*n==16';while 1:exec input()
09:13:45 <Lymia> There's one byte, right?
09:14:06 <elliott> you need parens around n==sixteen
09:14:17 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=n*(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
09:14:17 <elliott> n=0;i='+1';d='-(n>0)';o=';print n';s='*(n!=16)';while 1:exec'n=n'+input()
09:14:20 <elliott> these are the two current bases
09:15:07 <CakeProphet> I don't see how s will double the value in the second one
09:16:47 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, is the solution mathematical?
09:17:38 <elliott> you're still being excruciatingly vague.
09:18:38 <Lymia> Does Python have eval functionality?
09:19:21 <CakeProphet> and sys.stdin.write() is quite wordy and requires an import
09:20:09 <elliott> well there is __import__('sys').stdout.write() :)
09:20:20 <Lymia> elliott, I've checked.
09:20:33 <elliott> lifthrasiir: ok one question
09:20:39 <elliott> n=0;i='n+=1';d='n-=n>0';o='print n';s='n*=n*(n!=16)';while 1:exec input()
09:20:39 <elliott> n=0;i='+1';d='-(n>0)';o=';print n';s='*(n!=16)';while 1:exec'n=n'+input()
09:20:47 <elliott> lifthrasiir: which of these is a more viable base for shaving a character?
09:21:32 <elliott> n=0;i='+1';d='-(n>0)';o=';print n';s='*n*(n!=16)';while 1:exec'n=n'+input()
09:21:35 <elliott> yeah ok this base looks futile
09:22:01 <Lymia> I wish we could get rid of n=0;
09:22:21 <elliott> unfortunately python comes with no preinitialised variables :P
09:22:22 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, did you modify only the handlers?
09:24:16 <Lymia> - and * have checks, right?
09:26:16 <elliott> lifthrasiir: just one teeny weeny excruciatingly vague hint? :D
09:28:08 <Lymia> elliott, can we somehow combine i and d?
09:28:59 <elliott> tried things like that before
09:29:17 <elliott> are you SURE squaring to two five six is checked? :)
09:33:40 <elliott> SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURE?
09:34:05 <Lymia> What if we assume a default operation?
09:34:29 <Lymia> Something easily undoed.
09:35:00 <elliott> let me try something along those lines
09:35:06 <EgoBot> haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; main = do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (replicateM len $ pick ['A'..'Z'])} where pick a = randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!)
09:35:16 <elliott> we'd need newlines indentation etc
09:36:37 <Lymia> Dict comprehensions?
09:36:45 <Lymia> Not going to be shorter.
09:37:44 <CakeProphet> you can pass exec a dictionary environment, but you'd need some magic way to procedurally compress all of those strings into shorter code by taking advantage of some similarity that likely doesn't exist.
09:38:01 <Lymia> I want to combine i an dd
09:39:46 <Lymia> n,i,d,o,s=(0,'n+=1','n-=n>0','print n','n*=n*(n!=16)')
09:40:12 <CakeProphet> yeah I was considering that earlier but I didn't think it would actually save anything.
09:40:29 <elliott> the character tradeoff is literally the same
09:44:17 <lambdabot> [1.0,4.0,9.0,16.0,25.0,36.0,49.0,64.0,81.0,100.0,121.0,144.0,169.0,196.0,22...
09:44:54 <Lymia> elliott, no ideas?
09:45:15 <elliott> Lymia: i'm letting my mind churn away in a background process
09:47:41 <elliott> lifthrasiir: one measly little hint??? :)
09:48:12 <lifthrasiir> uh, i was briefly afk having a meal. so... what is your question?
09:49:09 <CakeProphet> execfile("deadfish.py",{"c":sys.stdin.read()}) looks promising.
09:49:10 -!- HolyBlood^AFK has joined.
09:50:04 <Lymia> import deadfish,sys;deadfish.exec(sys.stdin.read())
09:50:10 <elliott> how does that look promising :D
09:50:27 <elliott> lifthrasiir: there is no question, I'm just drawing a blank :-)
09:51:26 <CakeProphet> any way that the % string operator could be used?
09:51:46 -!- HolyBlood^AFK has changed nick to HolyBlood.
09:51:57 <lifthrasiir> it will save bits only when exec'prefix'+input()+'postfix' form is used.
09:53:24 <lifthrasiir> elliott, mind that my english is hardly fluent ;)
09:53:32 <CakeProphet> I am much better at obfuscation than golf...
09:53:55 <elliott> lifthrasiir: I need to read _something_ in to your lines or I will never shave a byte off :-)
09:54:44 <lifthrasiir> elliott, okay, what you considered a slight (and irrelevant) difference DOES make a big difference.
09:55:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:55:48 <elliott> now i have to go and read over my earlier comments :-)
09:56:08 <lifthrasiir> yeah it was my original intention when i asked for a hint at the first. :p
09:56:29 <oerjan> <elliott|afk> oerjan, tirelessly reverting vandalism of the sandboz
09:56:36 <oerjan> IT WAS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE THING
09:58:56 <oerjan> as everyone knows i'm a principled man, when i can be bothered
09:59:09 <elliott> oerjan: you will have lots of fun with sgeo's detailed chronicle of his failureiffic attempt to implement hq[nine]+
09:59:16 <elliott> by fun, i mean you will want to kill yourself.
09:59:31 <oerjan> ok, i was planning to skip most of the logs today anyhow
09:59:48 <elliott> you'll miss so much of the fun :(
09:59:58 <oerjan> WAIT THAT WASN'T A WARNING?
10:00:23 <elliott> why are these UK tv licensing ads always in tamil...
10:00:32 <elliott> lian speaking surroundings
10:01:50 <elliott> 22:25:37: <oklopol> some people like cutting their genitals, i imagine being glued from ones penis into a vagina might be a lot nicer.
10:01:50 <elliott> 22:25:50: <oklopol> wonder if this is the right chan for this :P
10:06:38 <elliott> I wonder how expensive segfaulting is on xeightsix/Linux
10:06:49 <elliott> well, segfaulting, catching it, and then resuming execution
10:08:30 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, is the postfix ")"
10:09:20 <Lymia> What are our operations?
10:09:25 <lifthrasiir> Lymia, i think it won't reduce the code, as "i" case is too simple to add non-artificial parentheses.
10:09:40 * oerjan suddenly realizes hq9+ + need not be entirely unobservable; it could err out on overflow
10:10:04 <CakeProphet> my first bash script: http://pastebin.com/cuSBQsEy isn't it beautiful?
10:10:11 <lifthrasiir> okay, i'm now trying to golf a haskell code....
10:10:24 <Lymia> You listen to music?
10:10:31 <Lymia> SILENCE MASTER RACE
10:10:35 <elliott> YOU LISTEN TO MUSIC??????????????
10:11:04 <elliott> CakeProphet: ok i have a rewrite of your script
10:11:10 <elliott> echo "WHY WOULD YOU EVER TURN FLACS INTO MPTHREES"
10:11:24 <Lymia> These are our operations, right?
10:11:31 <CakeProphet> I managed to remove like 20 gigs of wasted space by converting all of that losslessness to psychoacoustically equivalent lossiness
10:11:51 <elliott> CakeProphet: well, you goofed by not using a preset :)
10:12:10 <elliott> hmm do you even turn joint stereo on there
10:12:23 <Lymia> Always keep the originals somewhere.
10:12:24 <elliott> CakeProphet: lame comes with preset groups of settings
10:12:31 <lifthrasiir> CakeProphet, so you have estimated 40 gigs of pure informativeness now?
10:12:35 <elliott> which are superior to your own choices in, like, a hundred percent of cases :)
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10:12:52 <CakeProphet> probably. I'm not very well-versed in lame.
10:13:12 <elliott> `addquote <CakeProphet> [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame.
10:13:12 <CakeProphet> I'll see if I notice anything wrong sometime.
10:13:15 <HackEgo> 422) <.CakeProphet.>. [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame.
10:13:35 <elliott> CakeProphet: well you won't really :P
10:13:43 <elliott> not with the wildly excessive -V0 anyway
10:13:54 <elliott> CakeProphet: but seriously though
10:14:41 <CakeProphet> yes, keep a single file format or something. I honestly didn't have a reason for picking mp3.
10:14:49 <Lymia> elliott. I have an idea for golfing.
10:15:22 <elliott> CakeProphet: vorbis = smaller files (much lower bitrate with same quality), more reliable seeking, better tag format, ~~~|~|~open standard|~|~|~|~ :P
10:15:34 <Lymia> Let me check if it works
10:16:54 <CakeProphet> elliott: too late now, I think. And I'd have to convert like 100 gigs of mp3s to vorbis, which would incur a slight quality loss.
10:17:01 <Lymia> n=0;i='+';d='-';o=';print n;';s='*=n*(n!=16)*';while 1:exec "n"+input()+"=n>0"
10:17:06 <elliott> CakeProphet: s/slight/awful/
10:17:22 <CakeProphet> elliott: I may convert any other FLACs I accumulate to ogg, however.
10:17:46 <elliott> CakeProphet: man, I refuse to believe you couldn't have backed all those precious flacs up by buying a cheapo external drive :)
10:18:28 <CakeProphet> well, that script actually doesn't delete them. But yes I did immediately do a find . -name *.flac -delete after it finished. :P
10:19:28 <Lymia> Anything I can think of makes s larger
10:19:39 <Lymia> Too large to be acceptable.
10:20:33 <elliott> Lymia: note that exec "n[percent]s=n>0"[percent]input() is one byte shorter
10:20:45 <Lymia> I already thought of that.
10:20:57 <Lymia> Did lifthrasiir actually do that yet?
10:21:24 <elliott> lifthrasiir did mention something about saving space with formatting in that way
10:21:27 <elliott> which made me suspicious :)
10:21:38 <elliott> would he write it out to check just for us? no, surely his solution involves it ;D
10:23:17 <elliott> tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope
10:23:22 <elliott> i like how that hostname reveals all his previous nicks :D
10:23:26 <lifthrasiir> similar, but my code has fewer semicolons.
10:24:05 <Lymia> Now that I think of it.
10:24:10 <Lymia> I have quite a few possibilities to try.
10:24:27 <Lymia> Could we do something involving input%[something]
10:24:27 <CakeProphet> elliott: so what was your suggested change to my script?
10:24:31 <elliott> Please stop that pinging-on-a-separate-line thing :P
10:24:38 <elliott> CakeProphet: to replace it with that echo :D
10:25:28 <elliott> lifthrasiir: naw it's not :)
10:25:34 <elliott> oerjan's deadfish in haskell is pretty tiny already
10:25:34 <Lymia> elliott, that's the thing.
10:25:38 <CakeProphet> I believe oerjan can help you with haskell golfing, since he's a Haskell wizard.
10:25:44 <lifthrasiir> no, getting it work (with a reasonablly minimal code) is hard
10:25:46 <Lymia> It needs to be 2 chars or more, right?
10:25:53 <elliott> CakeProphet: hey i at /least/ count as an apprentice >:)
10:25:53 <Lymia> Otherwise, it would be no benefit
10:26:08 <Lymia> TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting
10:26:52 <CakeProphet> Lymia: usually means you have two many tuple elements and not enough %'s
10:27:03 <Lymia> CakeProphet, I know.
10:27:33 <CakeProphet> elliott: I'm not too shabby with Haskell myself. But I'm certainly not advanced.
10:29:03 <CakeProphet> the terse lambda syntax will be very helpful with haskell golfing I think.
10:29:11 <elliott> i doubt that will help deadfish :)
10:29:19 <Lymia> n=0;i='+=1;';d='-=0>';o=';print ';s='*=(n!=16)*';while 1:exec "n%sn"%input()
10:30:02 <lifthrasiir> yeah, i finally got it work. i wonder why i put the redundant return...
10:30:04 <Lymia> n=0;i='+=1;';d='-=0<';o=';print ';s='*=(n!=16)*';while 1:exec"n%sn"%input()
10:30:06 <elliott> n=0;i='+=1;';d='-=0<';o=';print ';s='*=(n!=16)*';while 1:exec'n%sn'%input()
10:30:06 <Lymia> Reduced a space...
10:30:10 <oerjan> <elliott> i like how that hostname reveals all his previous nicks :D <-- well technically not uorygl (which i still see him using on reddit)
10:30:20 <CakeProphet> lifthrasiir: too much C style programming probably. :P
10:30:50 <elliott> n=0;i='+=1';d='-=0<n';o=';print n';s='*=(n!=16)*n';while 1:exec'n'+input()
10:30:55 <lifthrasiir> CakeProphet, no, my current approach is as follows: foldl (>>=) (return 0) [f "i", f "s", ...] on the IO monad.
10:31:18 <elliott> lifthrasiir: you may find the sequence function relevant
10:31:20 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]
10:32:03 <elliott> ?hoogle [a -> a -> m a] -> m a -> m a
10:32:03 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldlM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> t b -> m a
10:32:03 <lambdabot> Control.Monad foldM :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> [b] -> m a
10:32:04 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
10:32:25 <lifthrasiir> elliott, uhm, (f instr v) returns a new value of accumulator, so it has to be folded.
10:32:35 <CakeProphet> I'm almost positive a Perl version would just s/// everything
10:33:09 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: are you repeating f all those times?
10:33:19 <elliott> oerjan: presumably he is using map...
10:33:42 <lifthrasiir> main = getContents >>= (\x -> foldl (>>=) (return 0) $ map f $ lines x)
10:33:53 <elliott> that's an expanded version right :D
10:34:11 <Lymia> elliott, I've got nothing.
10:34:18 <CakeProphet> ?pl (\x -> foldl (>>=) (return 0) $ map f $ lines x)
10:34:18 <lambdabot> foldl (>>=) (return 0) . map f . lines
10:34:20 <lifthrasiir> as i'm very new to haskell, i think it has a room for improvements.
10:34:20 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: you can use foldl ((>>=).f) i think
10:34:49 <elliott> main=getContents>>=foldl((>>=).f)(return 0).map f.lines
10:34:56 <elliott> main=getContents>>=foldl((>>=).f)(return 0).lines
10:34:56 <oerjan> that's wrong argument order, slightly
10:35:30 <oerjan> easier with foldr, that trick
10:35:42 <elliott> 02:56:45: <oklopol> bsmntbombdood is 15, clog is prolly <5, GregorR is... 18? immibis wouldn't tell me his age :P lament is older, i'm 18, pikhq is 17, RodgerTheGreat is 19, Sgeo is... 17? (random guess), SimonRC is... 17?
10:36:03 <oerjan> hm actually shouldn't it be foldr anyhow
10:36:10 <Lymia> Here is where we stand.
10:36:10 <Lymia> 5#esoteric740.091811/05/16 19:25:470B / 37B / 32B
10:36:14 <Lymia> 1lifthrasiir710.093311/05/16 17:50:490B / 33B / 36B
10:36:19 <Lymia> Here is our target.
10:36:31 <elliott> did you submit a version with borked linebreaks?
10:36:37 <elliott> i was going to submit it myself because i know how to fix that :)
10:37:02 <Lymia> I have a Unix system.
10:37:16 <elliott> which is why you need to upload a file instead
10:37:22 <elliott> and also strip off the final newline from the file
10:38:05 <lifthrasiir> you will find :set noeol binary is helpful in vim.
10:38:08 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: ok maybe the argument order problem means you cannot save over map anyway
10:38:17 <Lymia> elliott, you submit it.
10:38:31 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: also it should be foldr, i'm pretty sure
10:39:00 <elliott> Lymia: not until we shave off a byte :P
10:39:25 <lifthrasiir> eh, it should be foldl, as >>= should be called in the input order
10:39:29 <Lymia> Note the changed balance.
10:39:44 <oerjan> hm ok i'm just disturbed that you thus require a finite input :)
10:40:07 <elliott> Lymia: are we cheating with lifthrasiir's stat count?? :D
10:40:12 <oerjan> @pl (\x op -> x >>= f op)
10:40:41 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: standard deadfish has no steenking need for finite input
10:40:47 <Lymia> Making 2 bytes of newline
10:40:56 <lifthrasiir> but it is a golfing, with only three examples. :p
10:40:57 <oerjan> but i'll grant the golf examples probably are
10:41:12 <Lymia> Our total adds up to 69
10:41:14 <Lymia> What isn't counted?
10:41:31 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: @pl says it would be foldl ((.f).(>>=)) which is obviously too many extra chars
10:42:22 <Lymia> Symbol is [!\"\#$%&'()*+,-./:;<=>?@[\\]^_`{|}~].
10:42:28 <lifthrasiir> Lymia, there is some characters not in any categories.
10:42:33 <oerjan> <lifthrasiir> main = getContents >>= (\x -> foldl (>>=) (return 0) $ map f $ lines x) <-- aka main = getContents >>= foldl (>>=) (return 0) . map f . lines
10:42:41 <oerjan> oh elliott already said
10:42:48 <elliott> 04:08:27: <immibis> does glass-0.12 support input?
10:42:48 <elliott> 04:11:44: <immibis> does glass-0.12 support input?
10:42:48 <elliott> 04:11:50: <immibis> as in, the I class?
10:42:49 <elliott> 04:14:35: <immibis> i repeat: does glass-0.12 support input?
10:42:49 <elliott> 04:14:45: <immibis> glass-0.7 doesn't.
10:42:55 <elliott> immibis' patience is astonishing
10:43:32 <lifthrasiir> oerjan, yeah pointfree style is turned out to be quite helpful in golfing... ;)
10:43:55 <CakeProphet> Glass has the most sophisticated object oriented input handling of all esolangs
10:44:18 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, so, eh.
10:44:33 <elliott> I need to invent a new esolang. It's been a while.
10:44:44 <Lymia> Are the prefixes and postfixes consisting of letters?
10:44:51 <elliott> Although the prospect of updating http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ehird deters me somewhat.
10:44:53 <CakeProphet> I've got a concept for a poetry-based language.
10:45:02 <elliott> Have you SEEN the code to that thing????
10:45:28 <CakeProphet> not I. but the sun is starting to rise, which means I should go to sleep.
10:45:55 <elliott> who the hell goes to sleep that early :o
10:46:15 <elliott> going to sleep as soon as you wake up
10:46:30 <oerjan> elliott: hey we do have a way to use div and span now, remember?
10:46:33 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, does it?
10:46:47 <elliott> oerjan: yes but I'm not about to _port_ that page
10:47:05 <elliott> oerjan: besides the template engine would probably go out back and shoot itself.
10:49:18 <Lymia> I'll purge your user page.
10:49:38 <elliott> Don't make me write a script to drop lines whose contents are "elliott."
10:49:43 <Lymia> elliott, what's up with the user page?
10:49:49 <elliott> Lymia: What's up with it??? It's AWESOME.
10:49:52 <Lymia> It seems simple enough to modify.
10:49:53 <elliott> It's Snowman in the Land of Snow.
10:50:03 <elliott> Lymia: Dude, it features a u tag inside an i tag inside a b tag.
10:51:01 <lifthrasiir> for anyone interested, my entry is: r=return;f"i"v=r(v+1);f"d"v=r$max(v-1)0;f"s"16=r 0;f"s"v=r$v*v;f"o"v=print v>>r v;main=getContents>>=foldl(>>=)(r 0).map f.lines
10:51:05 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, I cannot determine the magic of which you used
10:51:39 <lifthrasiir> Lymia, hmm, my prefix consists of one byte, and suffix (yes i have one) consists of two bytes.
10:52:15 <lifthrasiir> and as i'm going to go home i'll be afk from now on... good luck on golfing. :)
10:52:25 <oerjan> um doesn't the contest keep the 256 wrapping rule?
10:52:42 <elliott> oerjan: yes but it only tests it by squaring
10:54:17 <Lymia> Shortest way to test it I can think of.
10:55:26 <oerjan> hm, lessee, r=return;f"s"16=r 0 vs r 256=r 0;r n=return n
10:55:53 <oerjan> i guess the cheat save 3 chars
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10:58:26 <Lymia> n=0;i='+=1';d='-=n>0';o=';print n';s='*=n*(n!=16)';while 1:exec"n%s"%input()
10:58:30 <Lymia> Can we trim three bytes off that?
10:59:38 <Lymia> elliott, yes, but that's longer
10:59:49 <Lymia> Or do we not trust lifthrasiir.
10:59:56 <elliott> lifthrasiir used a suffix, duh
11:00:11 <Lymia> And what suffix can you use to trim that down?
11:00:35 <Lymia> Is there anything other than n that makes sense?
11:04:47 <Lymia> n=0;i='+1';d='-n>0';o=';print n';s='*n*(n!=16)';while 1:exec"n=n%s"%input()
11:04:50 <Lymia> What kind of postfix would help?
11:09:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:10:12 <Lymia> Is there any way n can be better than n=n
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11:12:45 <Lymia> <lifthrasiir> similar, but my code has fewer semicolons.
11:12:47 <Lymia> How do you manage that?
11:13:02 <Lymia> <lifthrasiir> Lymia, hmm, my prefix consists of one byte, and suffix (yes i have one) consists of two bytes.
11:14:43 <Lymia> p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec"p"+input()
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11:15:07 <elliott> OK I can beat this record of yours.
11:16:16 <Lymia> How do you reduce that?
11:16:18 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1;(';d='-=(0<';o='rint(';s='*=p*(16!=';while 1:exec'p%sp)'%input()
11:18:01 <elliott> Lymia: P.S. Stop using double-quoted strings, they're ugly. :p
11:18:48 <elliott> lifthrasiir: Your record is seventy-two bytes, right?
11:18:51 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec'p'+input()
11:19:02 <elliott> No, your record is seventy-one.
11:19:18 <Lymia> Why did my brain come up with that idea?
11:19:31 <elliott> Yeah, I'm pretty scared of you for that one.
11:19:39 <elliott> That's... breaking levels of abstraction that were not meant to be broken.
11:20:10 <elliott> what on earth could his suffix be
11:20:23 <Lymia> Think he did the 'p' thing too, or did he do something else?
11:20:28 * Lymia needs to stop doing the highlight thing
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11:20:36 <elliott> I suspect he did the p thing too.
11:20:42 <elliott> He said that something I thought didn't matter mattered a lot.
11:20:51 <elliott> I'd said previously that his h variable was cute but didn't really matter.
11:21:23 <Lymia> If he didn't use it, ask him if he has the string "rint" in his program.
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11:21:41 * Lymia stabs lifthrasiir in the heart
11:21:50 * Lymia steals and eats said heart
11:22:00 <elliott> now Lymia is the lizard queen
11:22:15 <elliott> what could the second thing be...
11:22:25 <Lymia> We should go for 80 bytes.
11:23:14 <elliott> we've already got below that...
11:23:25 <elliott> well, yes, that's the goal
11:23:32 <elliott> but we need to replicate lifthrasiir's achievement first :)
11:23:43 <elliott> nobody in here is going to run off with the solution or anything
11:23:53 <elliott> and there's plenty of good golfers that might be able to help :P
11:24:10 <elliott> ais523: this is what we have right now, for the amusement factor: p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec'p'+input()
11:24:57 <ais523> elliott: what are you golfing, specifically?
11:25:21 <Lymia> Deadfish, where 255+1 = 256
11:25:22 <elliott> ais523: Deadfish, with the caveat that all input is on a line of its own
11:25:37 <elliott> oh, and occasionally "h" is used at the end, but we just let it error out to halt and that's fine
11:25:46 <elliott> the key to understanding the above is to note that python's input() evals
11:25:54 <ais523> hmm, what an arbitrary set of conditions
11:26:10 <lifthrasiir> since examples do not test the interpreters thoroughly
11:26:14 <elliott> the 255+1 thing ... well, Deadfish's wrapping is insane anyway
11:26:17 <ais523> yep, I meant the 255+1 thing
11:27:03 <Lymia> We managed to make Python look like perl.
11:27:05 <elliott> "It's f-ing fast[exclamation mark]" --IE9 web ad
11:27:08 <Lymia> Should we be proud?
11:27:15 <elliott> Lymia: this doesn't really look like perl
11:27:22 <elliott> perl golfing results have a lot more symbols
11:28:13 <elliott> lifthrasiir: Can you reveal the first character of your prefix? :-D
11:28:24 <Lymia> I want to try something
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11:29:31 <Lymia> p=0;i='+=1;';d='-=0<=';o='rint ';s='*=(p!=16)*';while 1:exec'p%sp'%input()
11:29:33 <Lymia> This is 1 byte longer
11:29:49 <elliott> lifthrasiir: second byte? :D
11:29:51 <lifthrasiir> but i think you are very close to my solution
11:29:53 <Lymia> Can we use (operation)p
11:30:21 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1;';d='-=0<';o='rint ';s='*=(p!=16)*';while 1:exec'p%sp'%input()
11:30:23 <elliott> the equal sign was unnecessary
11:30:46 <lifthrasiir> i'm trying some alternative approaches, without success so far.
11:32:11 <lifthrasiir> one approach was scrapping while at all, but it is a lot longer...
11:36:28 <Lymia> What types can be converted to int?
11:36:33 <Lymia> With no function calls.
11:39:39 <lifthrasiir> other numbers will coerce the other int to the type of itself
11:45:15 <Lymia> I recall managing to take 1 byte out of the n=n version
11:45:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:45:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: qjowewoqiej
11:45:30 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:45:33 <oerjan> <Lymia> Take it to PM? <-- #esoteric, where the most on-topic conversations are being asked to take it to pm
11:45:49 <Lymia> oerjan, in this case, it's for secrecy's sake.
11:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> How did my connection time out _through an ethernet cable_.
11:46:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your router: it is fucked.
11:48:41 <Lymia> We do call connecters "female" and "male"
11:50:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ran out of electrons
11:56:56 <cheater_> router fucked? don't worry, i fix
11:56:57 <cheater_> http://fukung.net/v/30871/9fc6f08b367a738e4cf60d17a790e607.jpg
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12:04:39 <Lymia> <elliott> 02:56:45: <oklopol> bsmntbombdood is 15, clog is prolly <5, GregorR is... 18? immibis wouldn't tell me his age :P lament is older, i'm 18, pikhq is 17, RodgerTheGreat is 19, Sgeo is... 17? (random guess), SimonRC is... 17?
12:04:41 <Lymia> I'm not on the list.
12:06:04 <ais523> although my age is probably publicly available
12:06:04 <ais523> which is useful, as I can no longer remember what it is
12:06:05 <ais523> (although I just mentally calculated it at 24)
12:06:18 <elliott> unless Lymia used to be someone else here.
12:06:36 <elliott> pikhq_: Worrying things: when Debian decides to identify as "wheezy/sid".
12:07:50 <Lymia> elliott, how old am I then?
12:08:25 <elliott> FWIW, I only quoted that line because of how hilariously wrong it is, so I could just make up a number if you wanted.
12:08:48 <lifthrasiir> Lymia: i think they are all represented in hexadecimal.
12:09:42 <lifthrasiir> or only applicable to some other planet than earth.
12:10:33 <Lymia> elliott, you have a more serious guess?
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12:11:21 <oklofok> you must be rather young because you're asking, but you never talk so how could anyone know
12:11:47 <elliott> Lymia: i'm terrible at estimating people's ages
12:11:57 <elliott> especially because i always inflate the estimate to avoid offending people or something?
12:12:23 <elliott> i guess it's kind of hard to guess when your frame of reference is fucked up enough that nobody can guess /yours/ :)
12:13:16 <Lymia> oklofok, stop using loic.
12:13:33 <oklofok> i'm gonna guess Lymia is 16 because it's a very neutral age
12:13:57 <oklofok> Lymia: i would never use logic
12:14:48 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, is the other reduction also perverse?
12:14:52 <elliott> yeah 16 sounds vaguely right
12:14:56 <elliott> that guess is just based on the ring of it
12:15:19 <oklofok> i did have some assumptions tho
12:15:31 <elliott> Lymia: now you have to report on the accuracy of our guess
12:16:06 <Lymia> It's a guess, so +-infinity
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12:16:33 <oklofok> well maybe */infinity, but certainly not +-
12:16:35 <elliott> Lymia: Oh come on, you can't openly solicit guesses then be coy about it.
12:18:08 <elliott> right, sixteen is two off from ten
12:18:15 * Lymia is quite sure she mentioned being in grade school in here
12:18:22 <oklofok> what the fuck is grade school
12:18:43 <Lymia> Anything below college and above kindergarten.
12:18:48 <elliott> wait are you saying you're actually 10 because sixteen is so not two off from ten :D
12:19:11 <elliott> oklofok: "femaly" is a really great word
12:19:19 <oklofok> yes, that's why i almost didn't correct it
12:19:21 <elliott> possibly even the beestst word
12:19:54 <Lymia> elliott, I'm not 10.
12:19:54 <oklofok> Lymia: i'm currently looking for a gf/fuckbuddy, are you in finland by any chance?
12:20:00 <Lymia> oklofok, pedophile.
12:20:15 <oklofok> actually i did manage to solve the problem
12:20:48 <Lymia> You have been golfing with a little girl.
12:21:07 <elliott> Lymia: wait someone younger than me in here who isn't an idiot?
12:21:08 <Lymia> +-4 includes a difference by "0"
12:21:14 <oklofok> wanting to have sex with a 14yo doesn't make you a pedophile
12:21:27 <elliott> technically correct. the best kind of correct
12:21:48 <oklofok> wanting to have sex with someone who's prepubescent makes you a pedophile
12:22:10 <elliott> i remember being 14, it was... uh... pretty much like being 15 is to be honest
12:22:29 <elliott> in fact i would say the experience is effectively equivalent
12:22:33 <Lymia> I remember being 13, it was... uh... pretty much like being 14 is to be honest
12:22:48 <Lymia> Except I was just started in programming
12:22:50 <oklofok> being 21 was way different than being 22
12:22:50 <elliott> i remember being three, in fact i am three
12:22:57 <Lymia> I am too embarrassed to show code.
12:22:59 <Lymia> oklofok, well, yeah.
12:23:02 <elliott> Lymia: lol you just started programming when you were 13? n00blet
12:23:16 <Lymia> elliott, well, I should add the qualifier "serious"
12:23:19 * elliott desperately tries to forget his horrific age-8 experience with PHP.
12:23:33 <Lymia> I recall messing with Lego robotics.
12:23:41 <elliott> i should really have a ph.d. by this point, dunno where it all went wrong
12:23:45 <Lymia> Never managed anything serious, as changing things around got too annoying.
12:24:00 <ais523> elliott: it went wrong when you encountered the education system
12:24:31 <elliott> wait shit asiekierka is 13 now isn't he
12:24:55 <oklofok> what? the education system has been great towards elliott
12:25:01 <elliott> Lymia: yes. he comes here regularly to be a complete and utter idiot.
12:25:10 <elliott> ok not so regularly nowadays
12:25:28 <oklofok> you know. because he's gay and likes to get fucked in the ass.
12:25:53 <oklofok> i thought that was clear enough
12:26:00 <Lymia> oklofok, that's not a nice thing to say
12:26:17 <oklofok> Lymia: then you didn't get it
12:26:39 <Lymia> Rape is never funny.
12:28:18 <oklofok> well it's different for males, see when we get fucked in the ass we like to brag about it with our buddies
12:28:41 <oklofok> in other words, you still have no idea what i'm talking about
12:28:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Lymia: lol you just started programming when you were 13? n00blet
12:30:04 <elliott> oklofok is it possible to die of laughter im just checking
12:30:27 <Lymia> Add water to mouth.
12:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i remember being 14, it was... uh... pretty much like being 15 is to be honest
12:31:04 <Phantom_Hoover> You haven't witnessed the sunny uplands of being 16 yet.
12:31:21 <oklofok> yeah and the transition from 19 to 20, wow THAT was something
12:31:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover how experienced with work would you say you are
12:32:03 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, it didn't go well at all.
12:32:22 <Lymia> I recall doing scripts in Touhou Danmakufu around 12, though nothing serious at all.
12:32:38 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, any work that entails messing around with Lego robots is probably delegatable to me.
12:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, I don't know what that is but I want to hit you for it on principle.
12:33:07 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, I don't know what that is but I want to hit you for it on principle.
12:33:08 <HackEgo> 423) <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, I don't know what that is but I want to hit you for it on principle.
12:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> You two are both pathetic, I learnt Lisp like a month after starting programming.
12:36:33 <oklofok> i learnt lisp about 10 years after starting programming
12:36:49 <elliott> i barfed out the lisp self-interpreter five nanoseconds after the universe began
12:36:54 <oklofok> and i STILL don't know how to make coffee
12:37:21 <oerjan> hey i learnt lisp years before starting programming
12:37:39 <oerjan> or at least i'm sure i read a book about lisp with no access to an implementation
12:37:58 <oerjan> (same with basic, even earlier)
12:38:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklofok> wanting to have sex with a 14yo doesn't make you a pedophile
12:38:39 <oklofok> i read a book about c++ when i was 10 or something and found i could program it just fine when i first tried it at 14 or something
12:39:08 <oerjan> i have briefly started entertaining the notion that cheater_ _is_ roman polanski, since he brought up the name
12:39:29 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: or a normal adult male
12:40:10 <oklofok> well, depends on what kind of wanting it is i suppose, if your *dick
12:40:15 <oklofok> * minds, that's just weird
12:40:26 <elliott> oerjan: all the pieces fit except for the fact that cheater does not appear to have any sort of creative talent at all
12:41:10 <oklofok> in my mind, cheater is the guy who doesn't do anything particularly anything, and everyone hates him
12:41:21 <elliott> your mind known as reality
12:42:07 <oklofok> people never say that to me
12:42:24 <oerjan> yes. we are all figments of your imagination.
12:42:40 <oerjan> fortunately it is a very vivid imagination, so we don't really mind.
12:43:12 <oklofok> oh you wouldn't want to be in my imagination
12:43:15 <elliott> btw oerjan i found your photo again in the logs
12:43:20 <elliott> it's... obviously not a photo of you i mean come on
12:43:21 <oerjan> well you _might_ want to cut down on the pain and suffering a bit, but otherwise fine.
12:43:27 <elliott> how gullible do you think we are
12:43:35 <oklofok> oerjan: i'll consider that
12:44:08 <Lymia> I've found an ASM patch to the Super Mario World ROM from... late 2008
12:44:37 <ais523> Lymia: is it a golfed Deadfish interp in Python?
12:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <Lymia> I've found an ASM patch to the Super Mario World ROM from... late 2008
12:45:10 <elliott> asm isn't really coding it's more... munging
12:45:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Inference states that I first wrote a program before that.
12:45:21 <elliott> it takes a lot less talent, otoh this means it's difficult if you're actually any good at progrmaming
12:45:38 <oerjan> ais523: in other news, roman numeral look and say seems rather more complicated to analyse than i hoped
12:46:11 <ais523> oerjan: that's probably a good thing, right?
12:46:22 <Lymia> elliott, "brute force?"
12:46:22 <oerjan> the IV kinds. the IIII is much more trivial.
12:46:25 <Lymia> Sounds about right.
12:46:49 <Lymia> I should revisit hacking at SMW's assembly some day.
12:46:53 <oerjan> (with IIII you can only add groups at the beginning, so no exponential growth)
12:47:00 <Lymia> elliott, you want to see some of my earlier code?
12:47:09 <Lymia> It'll be a "pleasant" sight~
12:47:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite clearly none of you have seen my horrifying sort function written in CL.
12:47:47 <ais523> Lymia: feeling embarassed at your early code is the sign of a good programmer
12:47:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And noöne will, since it was on the laptop my father spilt wine onto last night.
12:47:59 <elliott> it's just a sign of a terrible flawed programmer
12:48:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the hard drive probably isn't unrecoverable
12:48:09 <elliott> then there's no embarrassment ever
12:48:11 <ais523> nobody codes perfectly from the start
12:48:24 <elliott> ais523: haha, what an amazing way to cover up for your insecurities
12:48:36 <elliott> PERFECT CODING FROM THE START IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE WAY
12:48:49 <ais523> elliott: for years the only programming language I had access to was VBA for Excel
12:48:50 <elliott> we should basically just euthanise everyone who writes an imperfect program basically.
12:48:55 <ais523> do you really expect me to write perfect code in that?
12:48:55 <elliott> instant master race of coders.
12:49:49 <ais523> elliott: that means, that you've just admitted that it's possible to write perfect code in VBA
12:49:53 <ais523> thus I win the argument by default
12:50:11 <elliott> ais523: you just have to write an interpreter for the perfect language in it first
12:50:15 <elliott> i'm not saying you can do it
12:50:18 <elliott> i'm just saying i expect you to
12:50:30 <ais523> elliott: but the interpreter wouldn't itself be perfect
12:50:32 <ais523> due to being written in VBA
12:51:29 <ais523> elliott: vague death threats is not a very good method of winning an argument
12:51:35 * Lymia stabs elliott in the spinal cord.
12:51:40 <Lymia> Death threats fixed.
12:51:49 <oerjan> now actual killing on the other hand...
12:51:56 <elliott> Lymia: ha ha ha wow you think that can kill me
12:51:59 <elliott> that's funnyEXCLAMATION MARKS
12:52:04 <Lymia> I don't think I can kill you.
12:52:06 <elliott> ais523: It's not a threat, I'm simply describing the new regime
12:52:09 <Lymia> I think I can cripple you for life.
12:52:41 <oerjan> fungot hath not yet returned :(
12:52:41 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, no, not yet.
12:52:44 <ais523> I've made two BF derivatives, both of which are actually interesting!
12:52:50 <Lymia> Unless you count that really perverse thing I did for CraftBook.
12:53:01 <ais523> because I was looking to explore new computational ground, I just used BF as a base
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12:53:28 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
12:53:29 <Lymia> BOOT ERR 404: BRAIN NOT FOUND
12:54:11 <oerjan> also, rapture in 5 days, i hear
12:54:56 <Lymia> The atheists and non-radical Christians will be saved,
12:55:01 <Lymia> All others have done too much wrong.
12:55:08 <oerjan> HAVE YOU REPENTED YOUR BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE SINS YET?
12:55:16 <ais523> Lymia: what about agnostics?
12:55:19 <Lymia> (and non-radical :NOT_CHRISTIAN_RELIGION:)
12:56:49 <oerjan> maratreans, maytreyans and mithraists
12:57:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hyuk hyuk hyuk
12:57:40 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, http://craftbook.sk89q.com/wiki/Perlstone < does this count as a BF derivative?
12:57:52 <Lymia> If you're asking, the goal was to make something that fits onto Minecraft's 15x4 signs.
12:58:01 <Lymia> I'm not sure if I succeeded.
12:58:13 <elliott> "Perlstone is a surname that belongs to some special Australian's"
12:58:32 <oerjan> some special australian's what
12:58:41 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, heh.
12:58:46 <elliott> ais523: which are your bf derivatives, btw?
12:58:53 <Lymia> The loop construct is kinda-BF-derived
12:59:08 * Lymia had a backup server in her torso
12:59:13 <ais523> elliott: reversible BF, DoFuck
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12:59:43 <oerjan> hm i helped invent dimensifuck, didn't i
13:00:13 * Phantom_Hoover brickbrains oerjan, moves onto ais523 before realising he is out of bricks.
13:00:41 <ais523> I think DoFuck is TC, but I'm not entirely sure if it's BF-complete (in fact, it almost certainly isn't due to having no way to write a program that sometimes produces output and sometimes doesn't, although it might be if you allow backspace to delete characters)
13:00:59 * Lymia bricks Phantom_Hoover's brain with Rabies
13:01:50 <Lymia> Let's make Functionfuck
13:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover> If that is Brainfuck with functions then I am going to have to use oerjan's brick on you.
13:02:17 <Lymia> Brainfuck and Unlambda's evil child.
13:02:32 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, no, no.
13:02:36 <Lymia> Brainfuck except functional.
13:02:43 <Lymia> You can use church numerals for numbers.
13:02:51 <elliott> ais523: oerjan: Can we all take a moment to stare sternly at http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Feather&curid=3601&diff=22891&oldid=20446
13:03:01 <elliott> especially the fact that it's marked as minor
13:03:19 <ais523> I don't really think the article gets the Feather situation across too well, so I'd just call it an honest mistake
13:03:29 <elliott> doesn't matter, the sternness continues unabated
13:03:36 <elliott> still, adding a category like that should never be a minor edit, should it?
13:03:47 <ais523> it could be if it had just been left off by mistake
13:04:04 <ais523> e.g. [[Category:2011]] on an article that specifically says the lang was created in 2011
13:04:16 <elliott> [[Category:2011]] isn't a Category Like That
13:05:03 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec'p'+input()
13:05:06 <elliott> Lymia: This is the best we've got so far, right?
13:05:21 <elliott> OK, so we know there's a two-byte suffix.
13:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, hmm, I'd say that was a stupid idea and abandon it, but I have lost the ability to abandon stupid ideas.
13:06:06 <elliott> lifthrasiir: Is the suffix p)? Is the suffix +p? Is the suffix *p?
13:06:26 <ais523> hmm, I think a!=b should expand to a=a!b, for consistency
13:06:34 <ais523> (and ! is totally a binary operator in BCPL)
13:06:54 <ais523> a!b in BCPL is equivalent to a[b] in C
13:07:07 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, ([code]) = store function cell
13:07:08 <ais523> although BCPL is untyped
13:07:15 <Lymia> a = apply last cell to current cell.
13:07:23 <ais523> which means you can do it on arbitrary integers if you really want to, without even needing casts
13:07:49 <elliott> Lymia: BF operations don't look at more than one cell
13:08:05 <Lymia> What would the brainchild of Unlambda and Brainfuck be then?
13:08:17 <ais523> is deadfish up on anagolf yet?
13:08:26 <elliott> ais523: it's been up for days
13:08:35 <elliott> Lymia: no, I need to beat lifthrasiir first
13:08:58 <Lymia> Try those prefixes.
13:09:09 <elliott> the prefix is p, undoubtedly
13:09:28 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1;(';d='-=(0<';o='rint(';s='*=p*(16!=';while 1:exec'p%sp)'%input()
13:10:17 <oerjan> elliott: what about just p for suffix
13:10:31 <ais523> !c printf("%d %d %d", 'i', 'o', 's');
13:10:39 <elliott> oerjan: we know lifthrasiir's suffix is two bytes :)
13:10:50 <elliott> ais523: cakeprophet came up with some formulas that make them sequential, IIRC
13:10:52 <oerjan> yes but have you tried it?
13:10:54 <ais523> !c printf("%d %d %d %d", 'i', 'd', 'o', 's');
13:11:17 <Lymia> printf("%d %d %d %d", 'i', 'd', 'o', 's', 'h');
13:11:23 <Lymia> !c printf("%d %d %d %d", 'i', 'd', 'o', 's', 'h');
13:11:28 <Lymia> !c printf("%d %d %d %d %d", 'i', 'd', 'o', 's', 'h');
13:11:34 <Lymia> His formulas fail.
13:11:35 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec'p'+input()
13:11:36 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1;';d='-=0<';o='rint ';s='*=(p!=16)*';while 1:exec'p%sp'%input()
13:11:45 <Lymia> That WOULD be acceptable.
13:11:50 <Lymia> As long as o didn't follow.
13:16:30 <oerjan> hm what's boolean not in python?
13:17:11 <oerjan> and can it be applied to a numeral?
13:17:29 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
13:18:03 <oerjan> `run python -e 'print "test"
13:18:03 <Lymia> The most esoteric language of them all.
13:18:06 <oerjan> `run python -e 'print "test"'
13:18:22 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print "test"'
13:18:39 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print (!2)'
13:19:02 <oerjan> i take it python has no short boolean not
13:19:25 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print (!2)' 2>&1
13:19:26 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ print (!2) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
13:19:35 <elliott> <oerjan> hm what's boolean not in python?
13:19:39 <elliott> <oerjan> and can it be applied to a numeral?
13:19:51 <oerjan> elliott: well that doesn't help replace 0<
13:20:00 <oerjan> EgoBot has no python, i said
13:20:12 <elliott> oerjan: it's not, not [exclamation mark]
13:20:28 <oerjan> elliott: I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU MORON
13:20:38 <Lymia> I just made the best quine ever.
13:20:47 * oerjan is starting to get irritated again
13:22:03 <ais523> hmm, I've got the Perl down to 71
13:22:10 <ais523> $p=$p~~[-1,256]||$p+1,/d/?$p-=2:/o/?print--$p,$/:/s/&&($p=--$p**2)for<>
13:22:12 <oerjan> elliott: i _really_ shouldn't try programming when i'm in this mood
13:22:22 <ais523> that implements the whole spec, including 255+1 = 0
13:22:30 <oerjan> Lymia: myndzi certainly seems to think so :D
13:22:35 <elliott> ais523: sheehs, start cheating already
13:22:45 <Lymia> Can you cut out +1 support?
13:22:59 <elliott> ais523: what's with the -- in the squaring?
13:23:09 <oerjan> Lymia: nick alignment, you need spaces
13:23:10 <ais523> elliott: because the bit at the start always increments p
13:23:20 <ais523> in order to get it to output 0 rather than ""
13:23:27 <ais523> if an o command is run right at the start
13:25:13 <oerjan> elliott: this is ais523, lawful good programmer you're talking to :P
13:25:41 <ais523> I'd have not done that messing around if it wasn't necessary, as I wouldn't even have noticed there was a problem
13:25:43 <elliott> lifthrasiir: just oooone measly hint? :DDD
13:26:01 <elliott> been drawing a blank for hours now
13:26:14 <oerjan> elliott: how many chars is lifthrasiir beating you with?
13:26:29 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec'p'+input()
13:26:34 <elliott> the only bit of info we know is
13:26:49 <elliott> his looks like while 1:exec'p%sXY'%input()
13:27:45 <oerjan> and p=p prefix only worsened things, right?
13:27:53 <elliott> that destroys the rint trick
13:27:59 <elliott> so, yeah, we gave up on that hours ago :P
13:28:10 <elliott> the rint trick was the one that got us down to this count
13:28:51 <oerjan> i don't see how p suffix should make it _longer_?
13:29:05 <elliott> it takes up bytes to have it there
13:29:12 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec'p'+input()
13:29:12 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1;';d='-=0<';o='rint ';s='*=(p!=16)*';while 1:exec'p%sp'%input()
13:29:14 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:29:18 <oerjan> it lengthens i, shortens d,o,s
13:29:50 <oerjan> and requires 3 extra chars, sigh
13:30:27 <oerjan> which means whatever lifthrasiir uses must save _4_ chars otherwise
13:30:43 <Lymia> What can be reduced from everything at the end?
13:30:47 <Lymia> He said he used less semicolons?
13:31:31 <Lymia> Only i i and o are used
13:32:17 <Lymia> Might it be possible to kill the p=0?
13:32:50 -!- elliott has joined.
13:32:53 <elliott> that was about the old version
13:32:58 <elliott> i don't think the less semicolons thing is true any more
13:33:26 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print p'
13:33:32 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print p' 2>&1
13:33:33 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ NameError: name 'p' is not defined
13:33:42 <elliott> Lymia: no, o is done without i before it
13:34:00 <oerjan> `run python -c 'p=q=0; print p' 2>&1
13:34:09 <oerjan> `run python -c 'p=q=2; print p' 2>&1
13:34:50 <elliott> it's not good if shell scripts and aptitude tend to exit silently without doing much (or just outputting one line of output), right?
13:35:47 <oerjan> `run python -c 'p=2; p++; print p' 2>&1
13:35:48 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ p=2; p++; print p \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
13:35:58 <ais523> bleh, why can't you write $p** in order to square $p? it'd be consistent with ++ and --
13:36:09 <elliott> <ais523> bleh, why can't you write $p** in order to square $p? it'd be consistent with ++ and --
13:36:11 <ais523> actually, no it wouldn't, it would multiply by 1
13:36:17 <elliott> bleh, why can't you write $p** in order to square $p? it'd be consistent with ++ and --
13:36:18 <elliott> bleh, why can't you write $p** in order to square $p? it'd be consistent with ++ and --
13:36:18 <elliott> bleh, why can't you write $p** in order to square $p? it'd be consistent with ++ and --
13:36:18 <elliott> bleh, why can't you write $p** in order to square $p? it'd be consistent with ++ and --
13:36:19 <elliott> bleh, why can't you write $p** in order to square $p? it'd be consistent with ++ and --
13:36:32 <elliott> ais523: checking if tswett is a script
13:36:37 <tswett> Are you expecting me to nod five times?
13:36:53 <tswett> Why would I nod at that? It doesn't begin with my name.
13:36:59 <elliott> wow, ok, everything is segfaulting
13:37:03 <elliott> testing is REALLY broken right now
13:38:02 <tswett> Now, that's just silly.
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13:39:19 <tswett> elliott: you forgot the colon.
13:40:00 <tswett> Whew. I've got it in for myself.
13:40:17 <tswett> My script is running hot.
13:40:26 <elliott> tswett is going to have a hell of a headache after this.
13:41:09 <tswett> I think I've got about ten times to go.
13:42:59 <oerjan> do any of the examples do squaring of numbers above 16?
13:43:36 <oerjan> because otherwise you could cheat more, and use p<16 instead of p!=16
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13:44:19 <Lymia> elliott, I have school soon.
13:44:39 <Lymia> I don't think that's going to work.
13:44:40 <tswett> Nope, that's it. I'm all nodded out.
13:44:43 <Lymia> Look over the examples for me, k?
13:47:41 <Lymia> elliott, breaks test 2
13:50:34 <ais523> here's a different approach in Perl at size 77: chomp,/o/?print$p*1,$/:($p+=${{d,$p&&-1,i,1,'s',$p*$p*($p!=16)-$p}}{$_})for<>
13:50:40 <ais523> if only I could turn on auto newline hadnling
13:51:41 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec'p'+input()
13:52:00 <elliott> i think if he achieves size-four savings elsewhere
13:52:07 <elliott> that's the only thing long enough to admit such savings
13:52:31 <ais523> 75 using a shebang to turn on autonewline handling
13:52:49 <ais523> Python seems better at this than Perl due to not needing to screw with shebangs
13:53:10 <ais523> hmm, evil idea: what if I use $+ as the internal temporary variable? that gets autoincremented on every read
13:56:04 <elliott> how could you possibly mistake them
14:03:32 <variable> elliott: variable + name = agreed
14:29:16 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print 2&3'
14:30:17 <elliott> is that the squaring rule?
14:30:37 <oerjan> yes. it breaks but only for numbers >= 32
14:30:47 <elliott> well like Lymia said, larger then sixteen numbers are tested
14:30:55 <elliott> or have you checked that >= 32 numbers aren't squared? :D
14:31:07 <oerjan> no, i haven't looked at the actual examples
14:31:12 <elliott> worth a shot though, thanks
14:31:19 <oerjan> and it doesn't break for _all_ numbers >= 32
14:31:56 <oerjan> it breaks for all numbers between 17 and 31, brain fart
14:32:17 <oerjan> well at least you have a new idea to start with
14:33:31 <elliott> i am not sure it is such a helpful idea :D
14:37:20 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print 2*2&3'
14:41:10 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: we're trying to beat or at least tie you, of course
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14:42:00 <oerjan> does your code depend on knowing that some numbers won't be squared?
14:42:43 <elliott> lifthrasiir: are you sure we can't get _one_ byte of your suffix? :D
14:43:24 <oerjan> oh hm what if the suffix is +p?
14:43:47 <oerjan> would that be interesting
14:43:59 <elliott> oerjan: i've already asked this, but have received no response
14:44:11 <oerjan> it would make i just 1+
14:45:04 <elliott> oerjan: er, no it wouldn't
14:45:06 <elliott> not with a one-byte prefix
14:45:34 <elliott> I wonder how minus fits into that
14:47:05 <oerjan> um i think =-(p>0) is what i'm aiming for
14:47:27 <oerjan> no, it's one char shorter
14:47:34 <elliott> lifthrasiir: aha, you might not
14:48:02 <elliott> p=0;i='+=1';d='-=p>0';o='rint p';s='*=p*(p!=16)';while 1:exec'p'+input()
14:48:02 <elliott> p=0;i='=1';d='=-(p<0)';o='rint';s='*=(p!=16)*';while 1:exec'p%s+p'%input()
14:48:55 <elliott> stop giving away all the secrets :D
14:49:12 <lifthrasiir> that's been three or four hours, so it is enough, right? :p
14:49:19 <elliott> ok now this just needs getting one char further down...
14:50:12 <elliott> I think this might be the absolute minimum
14:51:03 <elliott> unless squaring can be shortened
14:51:36 <lifthrasiir> but i can't really come up with an other idea...
14:51:48 <elliott> this seems like the most "direct" approach to me.
14:52:43 <lifthrasiir> FYI, "s" is run with a value of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 16, 17, 99 and 9795.
14:53:13 <lifthrasiir> if some short function can map them into themselves except for 16, then it can be shortened further.
14:53:42 <oerjan> well p&16 mapped all the ones before 16 to 0
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14:57:15 <lifthrasiir> since len('(p!=16)*p') == 9, any such function should be at most 8 bytes long
14:57:40 <elliott> erm the p at the end hardly counts
14:57:47 <elliott> considering it's "free" with this structure
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14:58:40 <lifthrasiir> ah, it is correct. then we have 8 bytes that can be freely chosen.
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15:05:09 <lifthrasiir> elliott: interesting but failed attempt: 0**(p&16)*p.
15:05:51 <lifthrasiir> 0**x is 0 for x>0, 1 for x=0 and otherwise error.
15:05:52 <elliott> unfortunately too long, right?
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15:15:44 <elliott> pikhq_: Can you sprunge your copy of Grey Mist? I've lost mine.
15:16:10 <elliott> It's this theme I once made.
15:29:41 <pikhq_> Glad to be of service.
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15:34:40 <elliott> pikhq_: Have you found a Grey Mistish xfwm theme, BTW? The default ones kind of suck.
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15:39:04 <elliott> hi ~AnMaster@h168n6c1o291.bredband.skanova.com
15:39:21 <lifthrasiir> elliott: okay, there is no such experssion with at most 5 free bytes
15:39:32 <elliott> lifthrasiir: did you just exhaustively try every expression? :D
15:39:59 <elliott> it would be pretty impressive if there was a 5 byte one :)
15:40:08 <elliott> I think trying every eight byte one is feasible too -- the character set is pretty restricted
15:40:12 <elliott> There's not going to be an x, or an at sign, or anything
15:40:28 <elliott> p(), arithmetic, exclamation mark, and equals... that's just about it
15:40:49 <elliott> Arithmetic being plus, minus, asterisk, slash, ampersand, pipe, caret
15:41:08 <lifthrasiir> po for the first character, o for the other characters.
15:41:23 <elliott> hmm, well I do not think you will see [] :)
15:41:31 <elliott> and i'm pretty sure you won't see { or }
15:41:50 <elliott> . I doubt very much too, a floating point solution???
15:42:24 <elliott> and ; won't happen really...
15:42:27 <elliott> unless it's the very last char
15:42:30 <lifthrasiir> [] and {} is unlikely but not that impossible.
15:42:42 <elliott> o = '!%&()*+-/0123456789;<=>^p|~'
15:43:09 <lifthrasiir> more robust way would be generating the correct formula up to the fixed size, but it is cumbersome.
15:52:29 <pikhq_> Unless Congress decides not to have a giant stick up its ass, the US will default in 11 weeks.
15:54:17 <pikhq_> If by "bankrupt" you mean "completely ruin its economy, dragging everyone else down with it".
15:57:20 <wareya> Congress will never have not have a stick up its ass.
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16:02:34 <elliott> 11:05:06: <oerjan> i stopped reading that - too much cyanide and too little happiness
16:04:59 <lifthrasiir> okay, p*=p;<at most five bytes here>+p is also impossible
16:06:05 <wareya> I was going to sing out the last lyric to Eclipse really loudly
16:06:18 <wareya> but halfway through I choked and starting laughing instead because it was so uplifting
16:12:01 -!- augur has joined.
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16:19:20 <HackEgo> 338) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O <Gregor> A small benefit of my brief time as an intern at MS.
16:19:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq_> Unless Congress decides not to have a giant stick up its ass, the US will default in 11 weeks.
16:33:19 <ais523> I fear that'll collapse the entire world economy, even if it shouldn't really
16:33:46 <ais523> also, why /do/ people lend money to governments, given that they could default by fiat any time they wanted and war would be the only way to stop them?
16:33:54 <ais523> (and not even war, if the governments lend to their own banks?)
16:56:29 <HackEgo> 363) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
16:56:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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16:57:38 <HackEgo> 329) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
16:57:38 <HackEgo> 269) <elliott> Vorpal: I'M NOT CLEVER OKAY
16:57:39 <HackEgo> 326) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
16:57:40 <HackEgo> 206) <fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
16:57:41 <HackEgo> 381) <oklofok> destroying a local copy of the world is kind of like raping a robochick with a shovel tho
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17:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, the sixth years in my school who took chemistry are a bunch of complete bastards.
17:48:18 <pikhq_> s/the sixth years in my school who took chemistry/people/
17:48:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Their dabbling in explosives has resulted in the school labs being locked down considerably.
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17:55:31 <Lymee> elliott: How goes golfing?
17:55:47 <elliott> Lymee: p=0;i='=1';d='-=0<';o='rint';s='*=(p!=16)*';while 1:exec'p%s+p'%input()
17:55:52 <elliott> lifthrasiir revealed his secrets.
17:56:06 <elliott> Lymee: The current thing we need to do is reduce squaring; we seem to be doing this by brute-forcing an expression that works for all valid squaring inputs.
17:56:11 <elliott> But that's quite difficult.
17:56:28 <lifthrasiir> and i instead took up a haskell golf challenge instead. :p
17:56:40 <Phantom__Hoover> Then I realised you weren't the 6th-year chemistry students at my school.
17:56:45 <Lymee> Is there another way you can take it?
17:57:58 <quintopia> lifthrasir: instead did you instead do that because you were instead bored with the old one, instead?
17:58:43 <quintopia> Phantom__Hoover: take it to #esoteric-homestuck
17:58:51 <lifthrasiir> quintopia: yeah and instead i'm bored with instead too.
17:59:34 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: aka esoteric-minecraft
17:59:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Well, I suppose Vorpal doesn't get a say that way, but neither of us care what he says anyway.
17:59:46 <Lymee> That's in 2-3 hours.
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18:00:34 <Gregor> No one ever needs a Gregor.
18:01:50 <Gregor> No one ever needs halps from Gregor.
18:01:56 <quintopia> explox me the bfjoust cache file format
18:02:24 <Vorpal> <Phantom__Hoover> Well, I suppose Vorpal doesn't get a say that way, but neither of us care what he says anyway. <-- wrt?
18:02:55 <quintopia> is it just a file for each match with a number encoded as a binary byte?
18:02:58 <Phantom__Hoover> You can barely be said to have experienced the glory that is Homestuck.
18:02:59 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I'm lagging behind in reading yeah
18:03:03 <elliott> quintopia: I am unaware of any cache file.
18:03:03 <quintopia> i don't actually have the cache files on me, just the code
18:03:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Sburban Jungle is in the first few hundred pages.
18:03:33 <Vorpal> elliott, too long ago then, I forgot it
18:03:40 <elliott> No, you just didn't have speakers :P
18:04:41 <Vorpal> elliott, no clue, busy anyway
18:06:28 <Vorpal> I need to shift this screen setup around...
18:07:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, there? Any way to tell gnome which monitor you want stuff like task bar and such to show up on.
18:07:51 <Vorpal> the system is only sometimes dual screen
18:07:58 <Vorpal> (laptop + desktop monitor)
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18:12:08 <fizzie> I don't really know about modern Gnome. The "monitor properties" dialog used to have a primary-screen indicamator, and I think the panels themselves, when not locked, are mostly draggable.
18:13:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, currently I get desktop icons on one monitor and panels on another
18:13:05 <Vorpal> and there is no primary checkbox
18:13:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway the external one I want primary when it is around, otherwise I want the built in one primary
18:15:23 <ajf> wareya: y u no in #gg2
18:15:45 <fizzie> Ho-hum; well, I don't recall offhand how it goes.
18:16:20 <ajf> *wondow switches and page-ups*
18:16:34 <wareya> general chatter page 2
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18:17:05 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Ho-hum; well, I don't recall offhand how it goes. <-- oh well
18:17:28 <ajf> could you give me mod powers in Mods?
18:17:37 <wareya> ask mrfredman or bacon
18:18:00 <wareya> say you're my temporary fill in
18:18:55 <ajf> yeah, quoting you saying that
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18:50:59 <wareya> something from another community
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19:17:38 <elliott> Hey, I linked that days ago.
19:18:03 <elliott> I even quoted " This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.".
19:18:39 <oerjan> maybe randall is lurking on the channel
19:20:07 <oerjan> perhaps it's myndzi, he's good with stick figures
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19:21:09 * oerjan swats FireFly for being randall munroe -----###
19:21:19 <quintopia> oh shit. if he is it's my fault. i just linked the esolang wiki from a channel randall is definitely lurking in >.>
19:21:39 <elliott> WHY DO YOU DO THESE THINGS
19:22:18 <elliott> oerjan: what's the odds that if randall came here, the general dislike of his comic would be a refreshing break for him from the mindless fanbase he encounters everywhere else on the internet ;D
19:22:21 <elliott> answer: zero 'cuz we're jerks
19:22:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: You added Perl to the joke language list. Shame.
19:22:54 <oerjan> well what are the chances he's intelligent enough for this channel </rimshot>
19:23:27 <monqy> perl is a good joke
19:23:44 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:23:51 <elliott> maybe perl is a great punchline, but we sure as hell haven't found the joke to make it funny yet
19:24:08 <monqy> I laugh every time
19:24:31 <elliott> ais523: btw re "making the wiki look stupid", that sounds quite unavoidable to me ;D
19:24:48 <elliott> i mean to the UNENLIGHTENED the whole wiki is ridiculous.
19:25:08 <ais523> elliott: well, Reddit found the Perl entry on the joke language list and it caused a lot of confusion
19:30:04 <oerjan> well what's written on that page is a joke, anyway. unless someone changed it.
19:30:15 <oerjan> incidentally that argument also works for Feather
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19:32:31 <Phantom__Hoover> This return brought to you by: even greater paternal idiocy.
19:32:53 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean, I thought he understood that I could plug power cables in, but apparently no.
19:33:48 <ais523> he made you move away so he could plug them in himself?
19:33:51 -!- olsner has joined.
19:35:12 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523, no, he decided to punish me for not giving my laptop to my sister by "taking his router away".
19:35:45 <ais523> so you just plugged the router back in?
19:35:47 <Phantom__Hoover> He then attempted to unplug the modem, although he stopped after I helpfully informed him of this.
19:35:59 <ais523> oh, it wasn't actually a router at all?
19:36:17 <Phantom__Hoover> And left the power cable lying on the floor right next to it.
19:36:27 <ais523> why didn't you let your sister use the laptop?
19:36:43 <Phantom__Hoover> Because it's my goddamn laptop and she was being a snivelly little whiny brat.
19:37:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Seriously, I had to blast white noise through the headphones to drown her out.
19:38:09 <Phantom__Hoover> Need to retrieve tea, so I'll have to unplug the router while it's unattended.
19:40:36 * oerjan though Phantom__Hoover was an adult
19:41:18 <HackEgo> 370) <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual.
19:41:45 <ais523> elliott: you and your mentions of vagrant
19:41:49 <HackEgo> 282) <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
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19:42:09 <elliott> * oerjan though Phantom__Hoover was an adult
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19:43:29 <ais523> elliott: legally able to do more than elliott, despite there being no real reason to use such a crude method of discrimination
19:43:56 <elliott> yeah i've got way more coolness than ph
19:44:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: What is the pH of a phantom hoover?
19:56:30 <elliott> ais523: I don't suppose you happen to know how slow a segfault is? :P
19:56:48 <ais523> it can last a human-noticeable length of time if it also causes a coredump, though
19:56:58 <ais523> but if you're asking a question, that's probably not the use-case you have in mind
19:57:03 <ais523> *if you're asking that question
19:57:06 <elliott> ais523: I mean a caught one
19:57:19 <elliott> specifically, the overhead of the dereference + calling the handler + resuming execution
19:57:36 <ais523> my guess is that it's equal to a processor trap plus a signal delivery
19:57:52 <ais523> but I don't know how long either of those things take
19:57:56 <ais523> you could try benchmarking it
19:58:24 <elliott> I'm basically wondering about it as a memory allocation strategy
19:58:41 <monqy> good memory allocation strategy
19:58:49 <quintopia> in your opinion, what are my program's greatest strengths?
19:59:08 <quintopia> feel free to make shit up, as long as it's funny
19:59:14 <quintopia> i'm not feeling funny at the moment
19:59:33 <elliott> quintopia: it's the worst program ever and it eats babies for breakfast
19:59:42 <elliott> and it segfaults constantly
19:59:42 <monqy> elliott: is this for zepto
19:59:51 <quintopia> hmm, you caan do better. i like the segfault one.
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19:59:52 <fizzie> I seem to recall reading somewhere that Linux signals had reasonably low overhead, at least as far as these things go.
19:59:56 <elliott> monqy: no this is so unzepto
20:00:10 <elliott> fizzie: right; most signals don't involve such a processor trap though
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20:01:18 <fizzie> That part shouldn't take long either, I don't think, but of course longness is relative.
20:02:25 <elliott> the two ideas i'm basically having for it is
20:02:36 <elliott> one, you have this gigantic memory pool thing, but you only allocate some of it (like with sbrk or whatever???)
20:02:42 <elliott> and when you segfault by stepping outside of the bounds
20:03:05 <olsner> based on my experiments on linux, sbrk is nearly useless
20:03:15 <olsner> it gave me a 128MB heap
20:03:29 -!- elliott_ has joined.
20:03:37 <elliott_> <elliott> the two ideas i'm basically having for it is
20:03:39 <elliott_> <elliott> one, you have this gigantic memory pool thing, but you only allocate some of it (like with sbrk or whatever???)
20:03:42 <elliott_> <elliott> and when you segfault by stepping outside of the bounds
20:03:45 <elliott_> <elliott> it expands it and resumes
20:03:48 <elliott_> <elliott> an allocator replacement
20:03:50 <elliott_> <elliott> when the allocator is called, it just returns some random number from high, high memory that will never be used
20:03:53 <elliott_> <elliott> then when it's accessed and segfaults
20:03:55 <elliott_> the allocation is done for real
20:03:57 <elliott_> and the pointer is rewritten to point to it
20:03:59 <elliott_> plus an entry in a table is marked
20:04:01 <elliott_> mapping the high memory number to the actual address
20:04:03 <elliott_> so that if another segfault happens because of aliasing it can rewrite it properly
20:04:11 <elliott_> and then the next GC cycle it rewrites /all/ the pointers and removes the table entry
20:04:48 <fizzie> Based on the Stetson-Harrison method I'd guesstimate something in the order-of-magnitude of some microseconds, but don't quote me on that.
20:05:20 <elliott_> that's pretty good considering the overhead of the actual allocator :-P
20:05:54 <elliott_> i´m the austrian cave troll'lkk;yy[[File:ooo--90.217.154.251 (talk) 19:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)llllllllllll]]
20:05:54 <elliott_> --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sandbox
20:06:26 <elliott_> gah, why does wikipedia try and hide your contributions link from you if you are logged ouT?
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20:13:26 <fizzie> Understanding what happened based on the faulting code can be somewhat nasty. Your pointer-replacement thing at least sounds tricky in the general case; you get the faulty address and pointer to the instruction that caused the fault, but if it's some "foo r8, [r9]" sort of thing it might not be trivial to say where the pointer value in r9 came from, for replacing it. Or even to find out which register to replace with the proper pointer value so that you can res
20:13:45 <elliott_> fizzie: In this case it would be for a language implementation.
20:13:57 <elliott_> So the assembly would be controlled somewhat.
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20:29:37 -!- olsner has set topic: The first rule of krevitch is that you do not snork about flads. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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20:32:30 <oerjan> a very cromulent topic.
20:33:36 <olsner> yes :) my first #esoteric topic, as far as I can recall
20:40:15 <oerjan> @check \x -> (x+y)^2 == x^2+2*x*y+y^2
20:40:15 <lambdabot> No instance for (Test.QuickCheck.Arbitrary SimpleReflect.Expr)
20:40:27 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x+y)^2 == x^2+2*x*y+y^2
20:41:08 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x+y)^2 == (x^2+2*x*y+y^2 :: Double)
20:41:09 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 3 tests:\n-1.6666666666666667\n-1.0\n"
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20:48:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Let's play Guess Why PH Just Disconnected For Three Quarters Of An Hour!
20:49:12 <oerjan> was it Parental Stupidity (TM)?
20:49:47 <oerjan> so how soon will you be moving?
20:51:06 <Phantom__Hoover> Fortunately, unlike Sgeo, the chances of them sabotaging my university education are slim.
20:58:41 <olsner> what happened to Sgeo?
20:59:17 <Phantom__Hoover> He ended up going to a university with more business requirements for the course he was on than mathematics ones.
21:00:13 <olsner> because his parents wanted him to get business stuff and forced him there, or just they forced him into a generally shitty university?
21:02:25 <monqy> did parental stupidity find out about your router not being unplugged
21:02:46 <olsner> you should get wireless
21:03:53 <pikhq> Sgeo's getting a degree in, whatwasit, "IT"?
21:03:55 <olsner> anyway, how did the nutcase dad thing lead to Sgeo reading business classes?
21:04:16 <Phantom__Hoover> Ask pikhq, he tried to get Sgeo to change to something decent.
21:04:28 <pikhq> The highest level math class required for his degree is calc I.
21:04:35 <pikhq> It requires 3 business classes.
21:04:56 <pikhq> olsner: Just forced him into a generally shitty university.
21:05:11 <pikhq> Without an actual CS program.
21:08:00 <pikhq> Something about being able to live at home and it'd be cheap.
21:08:30 <pikhq> Cheap doesn't help you if your degree only barely qualifies you to flip burgers.
21:08:50 <pikhq> monqy: With Visual Basic.
21:08:51 <monqy> get into management in no time
21:09:15 <monqy> this sounds like the worst thing ever
21:09:16 <olsner> write a gui in visual basic to flip burgers in real time
21:09:17 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq, will he create a GUI interface with Visual Basic to trace the burgers?
21:11:38 <monqy> does visual basic knowledge even qualify you to flip burgers?
21:12:17 <monqy> does visual basic knowledge even qualify sgeo to flip burgers?, I mean
21:12:24 <ais523> pikhq: actually, I think burger flipping works even without a degree
21:12:52 <monqy> one of my life goals is to stay out of the burger flipping business
21:14:04 <olsner> monqy: don't worry, you've still got plenty of time to fail
21:16:39 <olsner> since I have made no such goal I am unable to fail :>
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21:23:11 <ais523> <Wikipedia> This is probably the only group on multicast e-mail systems of any sort where "OT:..." means on topic.[citation needed]
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21:35:20 <olsner> that oracle thing seems kind of funny
21:45:21 <Sgeo> Oracle's awesome
21:45:33 <Sgeo> Um, not the company
21:54:05 <HackEgo> 424) <Sgeo> Oracle's awesome
21:54:28 * Sgeo sets Phantom__Hoover on fire
21:55:11 <oerjan> i'd *ZOT* Phantom__Hoover, but i don't know if the oracle still does that
21:55:23 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-RLE
21:56:17 <Sgeo> zzo38 likes it
21:56:37 <Sgeo> Or, at least, used it in one of his languages
21:57:39 <ais523> oerjan: that came up in another channel a while ago, actually
21:57:53 <ais523> and the answer is, I don't know, because the precise question you asked didn't come up
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22:08:10 <Sgeo> There is this:
22:08:11 <Sgeo> "P.S. At first I thought I might zot you for your faux grovel, but then
22:08:11 <Sgeo> } I realized inspiring false praise is the highest form of praise I can
22:08:11 <Sgeo> } ask for. Keep up the good work."
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22:24:00 * Sgeo is now curious what Oracularity 1455-08 originally said
22:24:46 <Sgeo> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.humor.oracle/browse_thread/thread/ec854c084f3f0f3d
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23:51:10 <zzo38> Do the two reasons to capitalize "he's" in "Fear God! he's reentrant." cancel each other out? I don't think so!!!
23:51:33 <zzo38> Lla krow dna on yalp sekam Kcaj a llud yob.
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23:52:23 * oerjan sidles away from zzo38's axe
23:52:35 <zzo38> I don't have an axe
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