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00:10:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/hqw18/people_of_earth/c1xm35t
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00:39:42 <Sgeo> I'm going to give http://www.drchinese.com/David/EPR_Bell_Aspect.htm a read, on the recommendation of someone in /r/sciencefaqs
00:40:19 <Sgeo> WOT distrusts the site for some reason
00:45:23 <elliott_> just went there its got viruses dont go
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00:47:20 <Sgeo> I assume you're being sarcastic
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00:55:05 <Sgeo> "(it must be simple because I did it!"
00:58:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/hqwhh/steven_wolfram_is_extremely_smart_but_kind_of_a/
00:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> This is possibly the greatest understatement ever made.
00:59:07 <elliott_> hitler is extremely charismastic but kind of a jerk
00:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/06/you-dont-understand-ordinary-people.html
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00:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, behold http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/06/you-dont-understand-ordinary-people.html
01:00:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder if I should point out ais' experience with him.
01:01:48 <elliott_> Hmm, some people in the comments are implying that Feynman's letter insinuates that women are non-technical, but I can't actually see that in the letter.
01:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover> "Find a way to do your research with as little contact with non-technical people as possible, with one exception, fall madly in love!"
01:02:33 <elliott_> Oh, I see, people are assuming that when Feynman says "fall madly in love", he means with a female, and that his "exception" doesn't mean "don't /limit/ yourself to technical people" but "/only/ consider non-technical people".
01:02:49 <elliott_> So heterosexism + reading comprehension failure.
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01:23:29 * pikhq builds sabotage...
01:24:35 <pikhq> Which, incidentally, has a pretty awesome build setup.
01:25:37 <Sgeo> I have no idea what an eigenfunction or eigenvalue is
01:25:43 <Sgeo> EPR refers pretty heavily to those
01:34:37 <pikhq> Eigenfunction? Context?
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01:44:51 <Sgeo> pikhq, http://www.drchinese.com/David/EPR.pdf
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01:45:00 <Sgeo> Einstein et. al's paper
01:46:18 <pikhq> *Aaaah*, it's a generalisation of the concept of eigenvector.
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01:47:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Long story short: you should have gone to a better college and took linear algebra.
01:47:19 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to gloss over the math in these papers
01:52:19 <Sgeo> Do I understand EPR right: If you have two previously interacting systems, and measure, say, position of one, and velocity of the other, you could use the math from the former to get the position of the other as well, therefore.... something?
01:54:58 <pikhq> elliott_: Okay, okay, *real answer*.
01:55:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: You should learn linear algebra.
01:57:22 * Sgeo wikis EPR paradox
01:57:48 <Sgeo> Ooh, I vaguely got my understanding correct
02:08:04 <pikhq> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Vactrain
02:09:41 <Sgeo> How much would a vactrain ride cost?
02:09:58 <elliott_> pikhq: BUT WHAT IF THE WINDOW BREAKS AND THE VACUUM GETS INTO THE TRAIN
02:11:14 * Sgeo has no idea how long it currently takes to get from NY to London
02:11:17 <Sgeo> Nor what the cost is
02:11:24 <Sgeo> I don't travel much
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02:14:23 <elliott_> Sgeo: it takes 9 time intervals
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03:22:36 <Sgeo> "Manually updated up to strip #2800."
03:24:40 <elliott_> well there's only two hundred and fifty more strips than that...
03:26:16 <elliott_> wow, i was going to note that http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2000.html missed MSPA, but I remember /reading/ this iwc strip and it predates the beginning of problem sleuth by two months :)
04:05:40 <Sgeo> coppro, Irregular Webcomic's list of educational strips
04:18:43 <Sgeo> http://irregularwebcomic.net/special/educational.html
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04:41:36 <zzo38> The [[Talk:Condit]] article probably ought to be corrected some more
04:43:32 <elliott_> comex: why did you vote against your own proposals
04:43:43 <comex> you pay attention to Agora?
04:43:55 <comex> because I'm in an anti-legislation mood
04:44:10 <comex> also because everyone's votes are probably invalid, since they don't specify two options
04:44:21 <elliott_> comex: that's inevitably going to be ratified away
04:44:26 <coppro> why haven't we fixed that yet?
04:44:36 <elliott_> coppro: cuz we're all lazy fucks
04:44:43 <elliott_> make a proposal that fixes it and ratifies everything as working :P
04:44:55 <elliott_> and we can all vote PRESENT/FOR on it
04:44:57 <comex> because I didn't distribute the proposal until today
04:45:00 <comex> because I forgot about it
04:45:03 <elliott_> just ratify that it all works after the proposal
04:45:10 <elliott_> because if you actually can't vote at all
04:45:10 <comex> liek I said in ##nomic, Wooble should take over promotor
04:45:16 <comex> then I have no chance of being speaker :(
04:45:26 <elliott_> comex: ill be promoter ill be the best promotorwe
04:45:37 <elliott_> ill format every distribution differently
04:45:43 <comex> Murphy will love that
04:46:04 <elliott_> i think murphy probably has a paste-in-reasonably-formatted-votes script for assessor stuff
04:46:10 <elliott_> which is partially why i'm voting in lunatic formats
04:53:54 <Sgeo> I should start voting
05:03:30 <Sgeo> I STILL FEEL AWKWARD
05:04:28 <Sgeo> Same thing I was talking about May 21st
05:04:40 <elliott_> you are expecting me to logread for a simple answer
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05:05:01 <Sgeo> Talking to someone about a girl he recently broke up with
05:05:11 <elliott_> suddenly i don't want to know any more
05:05:26 <elliott_> actually i never did to start with, but i had a bit of morbid curiosity that has just become sort of morbid dread so never mind
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05:11:18 <Sgeo> Does it help if I say that he seems to be encouraging me to talk to her?
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05:14:36 <Sgeo> Why can't I find the page I was just looking at?
05:15:40 <Kustas> if you have a history list, you can find it
05:16:58 <Sgeo> I meant find which tab it was open it
05:22:29 <Sgeo> I think the concept of photon polarization is confusing me
05:25:24 <Sgeo> I think the example doesn't actually matter whether it's possible that a case can occur or not, just that
05:30:05 <Sgeo> LYAH is now available as a hardcover book?
05:30:16 <elliott_> no its only available in wool-bound form
05:30:47 <Sgeo> I thought it was online-only
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05:36:09 <Patashu> anyone on who knows pl/sql?
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05:51:26 <augur> http://digitallife.today.com/_news/2011/06/03/6778320-nsfw-zomg-and-twittersphere-added-to-dictionary
05:52:45 <elliott_> "Twittersphere" seems a bit objectionable as it's more of a brand name term, but...
05:52:59 <elliott_> breadcrumb trail - (on a website) a series of hyperlinks displayed at the top of a web page, indicating the page's position in the overall structure of the site
05:53:08 <elliott_> "nekkid- (of a person) naked: some of the oldest photos in existence are of nekkid women"
05:53:15 <elliott_> ok yeah this isn't actually that interesting
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06:54:51 * Sgeo finds Benadryl pills from 2006
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06:59:14 <Sgeo> Everything I'm reading says that at worst, it's likely to be useless
07:00:31 <zzo38> If you need Benadryl pills, then you should purchase more, then. That way it won't be useless.
07:01:04 <Sgeo> I think I'll just take a melatonin
07:01:41 <zzo38> Use that if it helps, then
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08:39:55 <zzo38> I made a GameBoy game fitting in less than 4 KB (still more than that 1 KB breakout game, however). It has 256 levels, which can be played in any order.
08:41:53 <zzo38> Maybe the file can still be shortened, though, while still keeping the same rules and levels of the game
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12:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, RRC's point was essentially that time-translation symmetry doesn't hold because the universe is expanding.
12:39:16 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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12:55:44 <Sgeo_> I don't get that when I put that into WA
12:55:55 <Sgeo_> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how+smart+is+stephen+wolfram%3F
13:18:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, go code something!
13:20:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I didn't know it was a disability. I thought it was a blessing
13:21:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I wish had the power to NOT implement all the things I think of
13:22:01 <olsner> Sgeo_: *lack of ability
13:22:26 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: haha, I mock you
13:23:21 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.imgur.com/O32j1.png <-- pretty sure that one is faked yeah
13:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, the way my perfectionism and my inability to pay attention to anything for any length of time makes me incapable of writing a program that takes more than around an hour.
13:38:20 <Sgeo_> Ooh, Eiffel does the ... is there a formal name for not having idiotic nulls?
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13:41:39 <Sgeo_> Or not, I actually haven't read the thing
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13:43:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, "idiotic nulls"?
13:43:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, what do you mean
13:43:30 <Sgeo_> I just mean null references as opposed to Maybe/option
13:44:27 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, I could you could argue that all pointers in C are implicitly of a Maybe-like type
13:46:00 <Vorpal> if I made an imperative CPU architecture I would probably make access to virtual page 0 "hard-wired" to cause an exception/trap.
13:46:32 * Sgeo_ has to see if there's an Eiffel web framework
13:47:22 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, what paradigm is Eiffel now again? imperative OOP?
13:47:41 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, not sure, that sounds about right though
13:48:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, which sort of OOP? C++/java/C#-style? smalltalk/objc-style? Something else?
13:49:44 <Sgeo_> Define "style". I'm not that familiar with Eiffel, but I think it's single-dispatch (which afaik all of the ones you listed are), statically typed *(which doesn't make sense to me as an "OOP" style, but is un-Smalltalk-like)
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13:52:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, well from what I understood, smalltalk and objc uses the concept of sending objects messages, while C++, java and so on treats it as calling functions of a object. Of course they are pretty much equivalent on a lower level.
13:52:30 <Vorpal> however I should point out I don't know much smalltalk or objc, so I may be misinformed about this
13:52:31 <Sgeo_> Ah. Not sure which one Eiffel is.
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13:54:19 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, you mentioned "single-dispatch", what other options are there?
13:54:50 <Sgeo_> Something like CLOS or Slate, where the method called depends on several of the arguments
13:55:16 <Patashu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch ?
13:55:18 <Vorpal> ah sounds interesting. I mostly used scheme, not so much common lisp
13:55:58 <Sgeo_> http://lee.fov120.com/ecoop.pdf a paper advocating for "prototype multiple dispatch"
14:00:20 <Sgeo_> "How simple is SCOOP? It requires only a single new keyword: separate."
14:00:34 <Sgeo_> Um... I don't think you can measure simplicity by amount of new keywords
14:00:46 <Vorpal> you beat me to that remark
14:00:48 <Sgeo_> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/10/31/20640/115
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14:02:29 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, RRC's point was essentially that time-translation symmetry doesn't hold because the universe is expanding.
14:03:02 <oerjan> iirc put another way, general relativity does not have a concept of globally conserved energy
14:03:20 * Sgeo_ downloads EiffelStudio
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14:04:57 <Sgeo_> "If you only want to evaluate EiffelStudio for future projects please download our Evaluation Edition.
14:05:07 <Sgeo_> (looking at the GPL download page)
14:05:30 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Wolfram, you continue to outdo yourself.
14:06:17 <oerjan> there might be a _teeny_ chance he is exaggerating his own personality for marketing purposes
14:08:00 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> I don't get that when I put that into WA
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14:09:32 <Sgeo_> Why is this thing about to install EiffelStudio 6.7?
14:09:59 <Sgeo_> Ok, that's the latest release
14:10:06 <Sgeo_> Am I allowed to be sad by it not having SCOOPS?
14:11:18 <oerjan> ok obviously it's fake, wolfram would never settle for having 20 million above him...
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14:12:02 * oerjan swats his reading comprehension -----###
14:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yeah, he'd never settle having over 300 above him.
14:23:48 <Sgeo_> Eiffel's "Why use Eiffel" stuff is a very good example of how much marketingspeak you can fit into a few documents
14:23:57 <Sgeo_> http://docs.eiffel.com/book/why-eiffel/eiffel-two-minute-fact-sheet
14:24:27 <Sgeo_> "The platforms covered range from Unix (all of Unix, the famous and the arcane) and Linux to OpenVMS, OS/2, Windows 3. 1, Windows NT, Windows 95/98.
14:24:27 <Sgeo_> " http://docs.eiffel.com/book/why-eiffel/why-your-next-project-should-use-eiffel
14:24:33 <Sgeo_> I think this may be a little old
14:26:33 <oerjan> so basically it's about why your _previous_ project should have used eiffel
14:26:37 <Sgeo_> http://www.jvoegele.com/software/langcomp.html based on the given answer for C# Higher Order Functions, I'm going to guesss that this page is obsolete
14:31:03 <Sgeo_> Eiffel is contrasting itself with Smalltalk
14:31:25 <Sgeo_> I want to say I think it has a point, but I'm pretty sure it will reveal a failure of mine to really grasp Smalltalk
14:31:42 <Sgeo_> "In contrast with, say, Smalltalk, you do not read the source code of a class when you want to use it. This may be fine for a couple dozen classes, but not for a large, powerful library."
14:31:48 <Sgeo_> http://docs.eiffel.com/book/why-eiffel/why-your-next-project-should-use-eiffel#Reusability
14:34:16 <Sgeo_> Why do I feel so much animosity towards Eiffel?
14:41:16 <oklopol> how fun, i slept for something like 15h
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14:42:31 <oklopol> anyway wolfram's iq led me here: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=penis+length, how are those quantities corresponding exactly?
14:47:48 <Sgeo_> Is penis length being 504 light-picoseconds unreasonable?
14:48:14 * Sgeo_ puts 504 light-picoseconds into WA
14:48:41 <Sgeo_> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=504+light-picoseconds
14:49:02 <Sgeo_> In a close enough sense
14:49:44 <Sgeo_> EiffelStudio installer compiling libraries takes an eternity
14:53:52 <oklopol> oh yeah i rather misunderstood what those picoseconds were about
14:58:23 <Sgeo_> WHY am I still holding out hope that Eiffel has continuations? It's a profoundly stupid hope
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15:02:46 <Sgeo_> I think the reason that I'm about to play with Eiffel is that EiffelStudio sounds like it could be a fun IDE
15:03:17 <Sgeo_> The installer is _still_ compiling stuff
15:03:18 <oklopol> does eiffel have towers :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
15:04:52 <oklopol> you know, like the one in the beautiful town of eiffel
15:05:24 <Sgeo_> If Eiffel gets me to be able to write software with GUIs, it will be worth it
15:05:40 <Sgeo_> Unless it's crap, of course
15:05:40 <oklopol> why would you want to write a gui
15:06:08 <oklopol> when you can just write inputs in the source code and recompile
15:09:29 <Sgeo_> Woo, EiffelStudio installed
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16:35:02 <pikhq> Good *God* gnulib does nasty things.
16:35:20 <pikhq> It has special-cased code for poking around in the internals of the libc's FILE.
16:35:28 <pikhq> For every known libc.
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16:44:36 <pikhq> Freadahead, among other things.
16:50:38 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, Pointer = Null | Pointer Integer? <-- yes kind of, except that Null is not a separate value from the other range for C
16:50:51 <Vorpal> unless you define that address (often 0) to be invalid
16:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Is this not doable with the Way You're Meant To Do It?
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17:28:09 <Gregor> What /doesn't/ it do? It slices, it dices, it purees and it resolidifies, breaking the laws of thermodynamics.
17:34:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, I have no man page for freadahead, what on earth does it do? I looked at gnulib source and that didn't help much at all
17:34:38 <Vorpal> it doesn't seem to load more stuff ahead
17:34:49 <Vorpal> hm, does it return size of IO buffers?
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17:46:33 <ais523> hey, remember when everyone here mocked me for saying I was entering a Pokémon championship, and saying I had no chance?
17:46:44 <ais523> the UK national Pokémon (video game) championships was today, and I came top 8
17:47:15 <pikhq> /usr/include/stdlib.h:96:1: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘__BEGIN_NAMESPACE_STD’
17:52:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: It looks to me like it'd return the amount of stuff there are in the buffers that you can fread without having to actually do IO.
17:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> the UK national Pokémon (video game) championships was today, and I came top 8
17:56:27 <ais523> top 8 in a nationals is enough to qualify for the world championships, but I don't plan to go
17:57:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I don't understand
17:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Top 8 means you didn't win, in accordance with our (well, not my) prediction, and your opting out of the world championships demonstrates that you subconsciously agree.
18:00:59 <oddod> yeah, if you're not #1, you might just as well kill yourself, or alternatively everyone above you in the ranking.
18:01:03 -!- oddod has changed nick to oklopol.
18:03:12 <pikhq> Fucking hell, it should not be this difficult to get an i686 cross-compiler.
18:10:52 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, foton
18:11:27 <Phantom_Hoover> First demonstrated experimentally by the fotoelectric effect.
18:11:57 <Sgeo_> Mind you, what the question is talking about is a bit beyond me
18:16:07 <pikhq> Yup, much easier to just go ahead and build a native i686 PCC.
18:28:16 <oklopol> i wonder how many people i'd have to kill to be the best at everything
18:29:07 <zzo38> It might be impossible regardless of how many
18:29:26 <oklopol> well ignoring that stupid point
18:29:36 <oklopol> that THEY'RE THE BEST AT BEING THEMSELVES or whatever
18:29:52 <oklopol> skills i consider worth skillin'
18:29:59 <monqy> they'd be better than you
18:30:35 <zzo38> Yes, one thing is that.
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18:31:16 <oklopol> but yeah ignoring your silliness, i'd have to kill pretty much everyone outside finland and american right away, and most americans too, due to language
18:32:11 <Sgeo_> You're saying everyone in Finland is mediocre at everything?
18:32:28 <oklopol> i'm saying most finnish people don't know a language better than me
18:32:51 <oklopol> many know swedish better than me, but the point is i wouldn't have to kill more than say 50% based solely on that
18:33:09 <oklopol> whereas i'd certainly have to kill EVERY CHINESE PERSON
18:33:23 <oklopol> each and every one of them, except a few retards
18:33:29 <zzo38> Learn to be Chinese and kill yourself
18:33:36 <ais523> oklopol: probably everyone but you
18:33:50 <oklopol> i know many people who are worse than me at everything
18:34:21 <oklopol> that is, measuring only skills i consider worth skillin'
18:35:13 <zzo38> ais523: Which pokemon generation was it? And which games belonging to that generation? What other rules?
18:35:48 <oklopol> but yeah it's true there probably aren't many people who are worse than me at everything someone would call a skill
18:36:01 <oklopol> and those people are probably literally braindead
18:36:26 <oklopol> if, for instance, knowing a single fact is considered a skill :P
18:36:52 <ais523> zzo38: 5th, and Black and White; the rules were no Pokémon that aren't in the Unova Pokédex (i.e. new in Black/White), no Victini/Resihram/Kyurem/Zekrom, double battle, no duplicate items or species, no using Sky Drop (because it's glitched), you take 6 pokémon in your team, you see the species/level/gender of the opponent's 6 then pick 4 of your 6 to battle with
18:37:57 <ais523> amusingly, people have been banning sky drop in single battles too, even though there's no known way to trigger the glitch there
18:37:57 <pikhq> Seems that configure doesn't coöperate with busybox.
18:38:03 <zzo38> ais523: OK. (I don't know the Black and White rules) Any rules having to do with items?
18:38:12 <ais523> zzo38: no duplicate items, that's it
18:38:19 <ais523> also, as usual in competitive battles, you can't use battles from your bag
18:38:31 <ais523> you have to give the items to Pokémon and have their AI use them automatically, and not all items work like that
18:38:32 <zzo38> Do you mean, items from your bag?
18:38:33 <oklopol> can you put a battle in a bag?
18:38:36 <ais523> *can't use items from your bag
18:38:49 <pikhq> It doesn't make its way through the sanity check.
18:39:09 <ais523> pikhq: wow that's a fast failure
18:39:12 <pikhq> Anyone got sufficient autoconf foo to tell me why I get this?
18:39:14 <pikhq> checking whether build environment is sane... configure: error: newly created file is older than distributed files!
18:39:30 <ais523> the build system has to have timestamps before the current time
18:39:43 <ais523> or else make gets fatally confused
18:39:54 <ais523> and autoconf is checking for that
18:40:33 <pikhq> The timestamps of the source are the UNIX epoch.
18:40:39 <oklopol> i dreamt that my balls were tiny, and that my guitar string snapped and that i downloaded a program
18:40:56 <zzo38> oklopol: Are these three things related?
18:41:19 <oklopol> well all of them are related to what i've been doing irl, masturbating, changing my guitar strings, and planning to download the program in question
18:41:24 <oklopol> but i doubt they are related to each other
18:41:27 <ais523> pikhq: and I take it the current time isn't before the epoch?
18:41:37 <ais523> perhaps busybox test doesn't implement time comparisons, or something
18:42:03 <pikhq> Configure doesn't do time comparisons. It does ls -t.
18:42:36 <pikhq> ... Whiiich seems to be unimplemented.
18:44:59 <Sgeo_> It sounds annoying to code with the Command-Query Separation stuff
18:45:16 <Sgeo_> Although I guess it does make functions pure
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18:55:50 <pikhq> Ah, I'd just fucked it up a little bit.
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19:08:11 <pikhq_> Very obnoxiously hard to bootstrap with pcc.
19:09:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:10:12 <pikhq_> Scratch that, "mother-fucking impossible".
19:12:21 <pikhq_> Scracth that again, "mother-fucking impossible with GNU utils".
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19:19:17 <pikhq_> Scratch that again, "mother-fucking impossible, and why the hell does heirloom need a C++ compiler".
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19:30:42 <pikhq_> Everybody and everything sucks, and everybody should be ashamed of themselves.
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19:36:32 <coppro> GNU is a bunch of assholes
19:37:58 <pikhq_> LibreOffice's changelog frightens me.
19:39:48 <pikhq_> "We brought the build down from 15 hours to 30 minutes".
19:41:48 <pikhq_> And apparently they cut out giant swaths of *dead code*.
19:42:02 <ais523> OOo was a very legacy codebase
19:42:34 <pikhq_> Glad that they're taking the effort to cut out a bunch of bullshit, though.
19:48:16 <Sgeo_> Who has a bigger ego, the Abrahamic God or Stephen Wolfram?
20:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> God doesn't need a big ego, he can just smite anyone who doesn't worship him.
20:22:21 <pikhq_> The Abrahamic deity does not exist, and hence has no ego.
20:23:47 <pikhq_> If we consider the fictional character, though, I'd say that deity has a gigantic ego. Making all of everything simply to praise him? That's a feat of ego Wolfram only wishes he'd have thought up.
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20:27:01 <ais523> norman256394: esoteric programming langages
20:27:08 <coppro> Everything with a side helping of esoteric programming languages
20:27:10 <ais523> as in, programming languages not often used because they're stupid or impractical
20:27:34 <coppro> we also talk about other esoterica
20:27:50 <coppro> so if you're just a curious type, you might want to hang around to learn
20:28:02 <ais523> we just troll people who come in here wanting to talk about it
20:28:05 <ais523> until they get bored and go away
20:28:10 <coppro> 15:48 < Sgeo_> Who has a bigger ego, the Abrahamic God or Stephen Wolfram?
20:28:12 <ais523> I'm not really sure what the point is
20:28:26 <coppro> this is sort of typical discussion
20:28:39 <cheater_> norman256394, this channel is about Eric the Esot
20:28:39 <coppro> in fact, arguing about whether we argue about esoterica is very #esoteric
20:28:53 <pikhq_> Pretty sure that's not what's generally considered esoterica...
20:29:11 <ais523> norman256394: I suspect you're in the wrong place, anyway
20:29:18 <pikhq_> And in any case, our actual discussions of esoterica are by no means what someone who's interested in it would desire.
20:29:18 <ais523> and unfortunately, I don't know what the right place is
20:29:32 <ais523> if you find out, why not let me know so that I can direct other people there so you can chat with them?
20:29:59 <cheater_> norman256394, what were you looking for?
20:30:19 <coppro> ais523: that made a lot more sense when I remembered you're British
20:30:34 <coppro> elliott's not around, right?
20:30:48 <ais523> coppro: I don't think so
20:31:05 <coppro> we're safe from him then
20:31:05 <pikhq_> No, elliott would be joining me in a mutual rant on the evils of GNU if he were.
20:31:07 <ais523> cheater_: I'm not sure that's any more appropriate
20:31:16 <coppro> pikhq_: excellent point
20:31:40 <cheater_> can we talk about befunge gui bindings now?
20:31:53 <ais523> I can't actually remember what they are
20:31:57 <ais523> so the conversation won't go very far
20:31:59 <pikhq_> (dear God, you can't freaking bootstrap a system with pcc! It's not like this is some little-known compiler, it's a high-quality and classic ISO C99 compiler!)
20:32:01 <norman256394> actually i was thinking of discussing in a *very* language agnostic way
20:32:11 <cheater_> what sort of programming paradigms are recommended for programming befunge guis?
20:32:13 <ais523> pikhq_: gcc used to be compiler-agnostic
20:32:24 <cheater_> norman256394, we sometimes talk about GUIs and stuff
20:32:27 <ais523> but in the end, they decided gcc was so widespread that they might as well be specific to it
20:32:28 <coppro> pikhq_: why can't you bootstrap with it? It uses extensions it doesn't implement?
20:32:40 <ais523> this is potentially a dubious decision
20:32:42 <cheater_> like the plan9 interface for example
20:32:57 <pikhq_> You can bootstrap PCC itself just fine.
20:33:02 <ais523> I think gcc has successfully managed an E/E/E on C
20:33:12 <pikhq_> Indeed, you can get musl and PCC up and running without much effort.
20:33:13 <norman256394> ok...I never heard of half of the stuff you guys are talking about.
20:33:14 <ais523> well, other C compilers
20:33:19 <ais523> coppro: embrace/extend/extinguish
20:33:33 <pikhq_> But not much else will actually build with this setup.
20:33:51 <cheater_> what does it mean that gcc is compiler agnostic?
20:33:54 <pikhq_> And it ain't the libc doing it. Well, not all of it, as you can generally tweak C stuff into complying.
20:33:56 <coppro> but we're fighting back
20:34:06 <ais523> cheater_: same as what it means for any other program to be compiler agnostic
20:34:17 <cheater_> Phantom_Hoover, is linux communist software?
20:34:37 <pikhq_> But good God I couldn't even get fucking *Heirloom* to build with PCC and musl.
20:35:12 <cheater_> norman256394, what sort of guis did you want to talk about?
20:35:21 <pikhq_> The Heirloom toolset is a port of the classic UNIX utils to Linux.
20:35:42 <pikhq_> Collected out of BSD and OpenSolaris source, IIRC.
20:35:45 <norman256394> actually I was thinking on a very abstract level
20:35:54 <ais523> pikhq_: ah, I was wondering "why not just use BSD utils"?
20:35:57 <cheater_> what package does that come in pikhq_?
20:36:28 <cheater_> pikhq_, what does it have that i might be missing?
20:36:37 <ais523> hmm, I suppose that's basically almost ontopic here, if it's insane enough by today's standards (which is different from being insane overall, but that tends to happen too)
20:36:43 <cheater_> norman256394, but would it be smoothly differentiable?
20:36:45 <pikhq_> cheater_: Nothing, really.
20:36:48 <ais523> and almost ontopic is much better than we normally manage
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20:37:07 <pikhq_> cheater_: It's just got the traditional utils instead of the GNU stuff.
20:37:34 <pikhq_> Hmm. I wonder if I could even possibly manage to get Busybox to build with pcc.
20:37:40 <norman256394> just was thinking if anyone could help me navigate the intricacies of designing such a user-interface
20:37:57 <Phantom_Hoover> <norman256394> something like the interface of the future
20:38:07 <pikhq_> Feh, not going to work on it, cause I have developed a hatred for everything of late.
20:38:17 <Phantom_Hoover> You should probably talk to elliott about that so he can tell you why your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.
20:38:37 <pikhq_> ais523: Any idea what the last version of GCC that was compiler-agnostic?
20:38:41 <Sgeo_> Is it better to look smooth or be fast?
20:39:13 <cheater_> anyone got the link to the archive.org video of the lightpen demonstration
20:39:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Out of the two extremes... hideous but fast is preferable to beautiful but unusably slow.
20:39:51 <cheater_> Phantom_Hoover, what if you expect the beauty
20:40:05 <cheater_> and like, you'd rather mail-order mona lisa than stare at a blank wall
20:40:07 <pikhq_> ais523: Oh, and the reason I was using PCC in the first place was that it's genuinely *obnoxious* to try and get an i686-pc-linux-gnu cross compiler.
20:40:09 <cheater_> blank walls are very responsive.
20:40:19 <norman256394> I guess I have come to appreciate the importance of speed after having worked on the likes of SAP, with its laggy interface
20:40:26 <pikhq_> It shouldn't be hard, but it is.
20:40:35 <pikhq_> Because EVERYBODY'S BUILD SYSTEM SUCKS
20:40:36 <Sgeo_> What about reorienting a phone? Show an animation of it changing, or instantly change?
20:40:48 <Sgeo_> (I'm pretty sure I saw this sort of thing in an iPhone flamewar)
20:41:06 <cheater_> what about instead of having the phone change..
20:41:16 <cheater_> have the whole world change around the phone and have the phone stay put?
20:41:31 <Sgeo_> Isn't that equivalent?
20:41:44 <pikhq_> As you can tell, I'm quite *happy* with the state of UNIX right now.
20:41:44 <cheater_> that's better than equivalent.
20:41:53 <norman256394> there should be a tag in here to mark sentences that are meant to be taken as humourous/sarcastic
20:41:56 <cheater_> or what about having the co-telephone not-turn?
20:42:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not on the level of, say, Compiz taken to crazy levels.
20:42:03 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I should note hat cheater_ is speaking
20:42:29 <ais523> pikhq_: C-INTERCAL's build system handles all cross-compile combinations quite well
20:42:33 <cheater_> norman256394, that tag is <Sgeo_>
20:42:48 <ais523> it was designed by looking at gcc's build system, deciding it was an awful buggy mess that nobody should use ever, and doing something entirely different
20:42:58 <pikhq_> ais523: Correct answer.
20:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It does have the caveat that noöne except ais thinks it work.
20:43:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: solution to what?
20:44:01 <cheater_> the life, the universe, and everything.
20:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Your "take it seriously in an attempt to make everything absurd" tactic.
20:44:41 <pikhq_> ais523: I approve of your pedantry so far.
20:44:52 <pikhq_> dnl Don't assume yacc exists just because bison doesn't (wtf autoconf...)
20:45:01 <norman256394> it's hard to keep track of conversations in here. :|
20:45:26 <Sgeo_> Reddit might be easier for you?
20:45:30 <ais523> it gets easier with practice
20:45:40 <cheater_> norman256394, and then i went to the kitcchen. funny, right?
20:45:45 <ais523> pikhq_: hey, if autoconf is being stupid and I work around it, I may as well document what I've done and why
20:46:23 <ais523> but someone has to write the compatibility layers in between
20:46:27 <cheater_> everyone should adjust to vim.
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20:47:03 <Sgeo_> Especially decades old software with decades old standards that its current users, of which there many, are quite comfortable with
20:47:11 <Sgeo_> (Not sure if decades gets pluralized)
20:47:24 <pikhq_> ais523: Yes, I'm "Wut"ing at autoconf, not at you.
20:47:46 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's a bug or a silly assumption
20:48:00 <ais523> but it's definitely implausible
20:48:19 <cheater_> Sgeo_, decades is plural already.
20:48:22 <norman256394> ok...nice talking to you guys. But my IRC client is just plain too ugly to continue staring at for too long.
20:48:46 <Sgeo_> cheater_, as in, I was uncertain if IRC history spanned two decades.
20:48:47 <cheater_> norman256394, that's what i think about one of my coworkers
20:48:50 <pikhq_> Anyways, got a clue what GCC version(s) are compiler agnostic?
20:48:57 <cheater_> i started working from home though so it's alright
20:49:04 <ais523> pikhq_: I knew once, but have long since forgotten
20:49:15 <pikhq_> I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it's 2.x.
20:49:37 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, bootstrapping gcc?
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20:50:16 <Sgeo_> Is there a recorded history somewhere of what older versions of gcc were used to compile newer versions etc.? Because that would make interesting reading imo
20:50:25 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Do you have any idea how fucking ridiculously painful it is to get an i686-pc-linux-musl compiler from x86_64-pc-linux-gnu?
20:50:54 <pikhq_> Right now I'm only asking out of personal curiosity, because I HATE GNU.
20:51:21 <Sgeo_> No idea. Um, not even sure what you're referring to, exactly. Which machine are you on?
20:51:31 <Sgeo_> What binary do you have?
20:51:40 <Sgeo_> I should be able to parse this from your question, but I can't
20:52:18 <pikhq_> I had a correctly functioning i686-pc-linux-musl pcc (okay, so it thought that it was i686-pc-linux-gnulibc1, but whatever). Problem is, nothing will build with that.
20:52:53 <pikhq_> And it wasn't the libc's fault. musl can actually support a reasonable system (... if you don't mind a lack of C++).
20:53:31 <Sgeo_> cheater_, um, ask pikhq_?
20:53:48 <cheater_> Sgeo_, apparently asking you worked too
20:54:01 <cheater_> pikhq_, what does it do better than glibc?
20:54:18 <pikhq_> cheater_: It has size comparable to dietlibc and performance comparable to glibc.
20:55:04 <pikhq_> (in some cases better, in some cases worse. Has at-least-as-good big-O performance.)
20:56:07 <coppro> cheater_: everything is better than glibc
20:56:47 <Sgeo_> What do MS's compilers use?
20:56:48 <pikhq_> glibc is pretty bloated, and has absolutely convoluted code.
20:57:29 <pikhq_> "Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime".
20:58:26 <pikhq_> Incidentally, they've been doing compilers for quite a while... That libc traces its way back to their C compiler for DOS in 1983.
21:00:12 <pikhq_> The same libc is used by mingw.
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21:01:39 <cheater_> since mingw stands for minimal gnu for windows
21:02:42 <pikhq_> Yeah, it's just GCC and binutils. msys adds a few more bits (bash, coreutils, make), but... Yeah. Utterly devoid of glibc.
21:04:10 <pikhq_> As well as an avoidance of simple algorithms.
21:05:03 <pikhq_> cheater_: They love creeping featuritis and premature optimisation.
21:05:30 <pikhq_> As well as truly awful hacks that are not exactly necessary.
21:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The simple answer to this is "true.c in the binutils source".
21:06:19 <pikhq_> Coreutils has its own implementation of buffered IO.
21:06:53 <pikhq_> Oh, sorry, that's gnulib.
21:07:07 <pikhq_> Which itself gets relevant bits copied into program source.
21:07:25 <pikhq_> They claim it's for 'portability'.
21:07:36 <pikhq_> Some of it actually increases portability.
21:07:50 <pikhq_> Some of it is utterly retarded.
21:08:29 <pikhq_> If it includes stdio-impl.h, it is definitely utterly retarded.
21:08:32 <cheater_> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/src/?cvsroot=src
21:08:43 <pikhq_> Would you like to guess what that does?
21:09:13 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, no no no, much worse than that.
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21:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater_, BtW, try true --version and --help, if your shell doesn't alias it.
21:10:02 <pikhq_> It contains the definition of FILE for every libc they support.
21:10:17 <pikhq_> Not FILE*, but the struct actually pointed to by it.
21:10:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Aha, http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c
21:11:02 <cheater_> Phantom_Hoover, ok so you mean coreutils
21:12:35 <pikhq_> Indeed, coreutils' copy of gnulib seems to contain most of a libc.
21:12:58 <pikhq_> ... *it actually contains a printf*‽
21:13:23 <pikhq_> IT LITERALLY HAS A PRINTF.
21:13:38 <cheater_> what is so bad about this thing?
21:13:42 <pikhq_> You think I'm kidding, but no, it literally has a printf.
21:14:10 <cheater_> defines some help, some other stuff, and does its job too.
21:14:18 <pikhq_> cheater_: Allow me to give you a true.c.
21:14:33 <cheater_> how do i find the usage for it
21:15:02 <cheater_> which is actually a common thing
21:15:18 <pikhq_> Perhaps you'd be more revolted by cat.
21:15:33 <pikhq_> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/cat.c
21:16:25 <pikhq_> 1,000 lines of code. Pokes around libc internals. Uses its own buffered IO on top of stdio.
21:16:52 <Sgeo_> What does filenotfound return?
21:17:03 <Sgeo_> Also, wouldn't true.c return 0?
21:17:30 <pikhq_> And has significantly more options than is even slightly necessary.
21:17:42 <pikhq_> (the following options are required by POSIX for cat: -u
21:18:22 <pikhq_> https://github.com/pikhq/pikhq-coreutils/blob/master/cat/cat.c For comparison.
21:19:00 <pikhq_> 1/10th the size, billions of times more portable.
21:22:01 <cheater_> why is it billions of times more portable
21:22:28 <pikhq_> Their cat *literally is fucking around with libc internals*.
21:23:13 <pikhq_> It's in some functions they pull in from elsewhere in the source tree.
21:23:39 <zzo38> Yes I do think GNU programs are bloated, but it is good they write those programs anyways. Especially since they wrote the license too. Now the same license can be used with other programs, including other programs that are based on the GNU programs.
21:23:52 <zzo38> I dislike GNU long options.
21:24:36 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: That ain't a typo, you git.
21:24:59 <pikhq_> It's a perfectly valid, though admittedly non-US, spelling.
21:25:24 <zzo38> I once asked them why they make large GNU program like that, they didn't give a very good answer in my opinion
21:25:29 <pikhq_> "Unrecognised." Thought that was what you were talking about.
21:26:39 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: How do you think someone will know that? Did you post that information somewhere, such as esolang wiki? You have cloak enabled so it is hard to know these kind of things?
21:31:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
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21:37:43 <pikhq> So. Everybody is wrong at everything; any arguments?
21:40:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:41:11 <coppro> (you walked into that one)
21:46:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes. Including you are wrong at this. And the argument is also wrong.
21:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I am sorely disappointed at the loss of searchable logs of this place.
21:58:52 -!- elliott_ has joined.
21:59:30 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
21:59:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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22:03:35 * pikhq flips off pcc for a bit
22:04:20 <pikhq> Shouldn't be hard to get it to actually function right.
22:04:42 <elliott> it might be that malloc(0) in cpp
22:04:46 <elliott> that broke it with dietlibc
22:05:31 <pikhq> Right *now*, just trying to get a normal pcc on x86_64-pc-linux-gnu
22:05:40 <pikhq> Its output segfaults.
22:06:36 <pikhq> It segfaults with the program counter at 0x01.
22:08:43 <cheater_> is there a shell which does *not* alias true?
22:09:14 <cheater_> ksh, bash, sh, dash, zsh all do it
22:09:31 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:11:51 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: FIN).
22:14:24 <elliott> i'm not sure of the relevance; after all, I'm not an alias, so that hardly works
22:15:32 <cheater_> yeah. good thing we're not playing synonyms then, right?
22:22:08 <Vorpal> none of them "alias" it as you say
22:22:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes they all troll true until it gives up and ignore them
22:22:56 <Vorpal> that is why they implement it as a shell builtin
22:23:14 <Vorpal> since the one in /bin refuses to have anything to do with them
22:23:49 <Vorpal> elliott, speaking of which, how goes the spec
22:27:15 -!- elliott_ has joined.
22:27:19 <elliott_> cheater just disconnected me from the internet as a warning
22:27:50 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:28:52 -!- elliott__ has joined.
22:29:47 <Vorpal> elliott__, it is having a hangover
22:31:03 <Vorpal> interestingly, translating the Swedish word for "hangover" literally to English yields "backsmash"
22:31:51 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:32:02 <Vorpal> elliott__, what do you mean with lj?
22:32:18 <Vorpal> elliott__, I'll stop once you make sense
22:32:34 <Vorpal> elliott__, I blame the current "lj" and "ijsd" on your connection
22:33:57 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:33:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:34:33 <pikhq_> Now, then. I have a functioning pcc.
22:34:46 <pikhq_> That is i686-pc-linux-musl.
22:34:51 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why do you care about ppc?
22:35:06 <pikhq_> I'm sure I had a reason when I started.
22:35:13 <Vorpal> (having a functioning i686 ppc would be amusing)
22:35:16 <pikhq_> Right now, it's stubborness.
22:42:29 <Vorpal> pikhq_, how long have you been working on this
23:07:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:12:43 <pikhq_> make[2]: *** No rule to make target `../.././gcc/libgcc.mvars'. Stop.
23:16:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
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23:25:42 <ais523> <barsoap> My favourite expansion hack is mkdir z; mv *; mv z foo. Try to do that with a smarter mv.
23:25:50 <ais523> wow that's an interesting use of *
23:26:10 <ais523> elliott__: are you caught up logreading, btw?
23:26:20 <elliott__> ais523: I wasn't planning to; should I?
23:26:33 <pikhq> Well, you'll just see me being angry at everything and everyone forever.
23:26:54 <ais523> elliott__: not necessarily, it's just that some things happened that I thought you might have reactions to, but you probably don't care much
23:27:08 <ais523> also, at the NEC today, I saw a place marked "food & bar" in really large letters (I'm talking at least 10 metres high)
23:27:12 <ais523> only someone had removed the d
23:27:15 <ais523> so it said foo & bar instead
23:27:24 <ais523> I wonder if it was actually a metasyntactic varaible vote, or concidence?
23:27:26 <pikhq> ais523: That was my initial parse even with the "d" there.
23:28:23 <elliott__> I think there's actually a bar called the Foo Bar
23:29:00 <elliott__> 13:55:58: <Sgeo_> http://lee.fov120.com/ecoop.pdf a paper advocating for "prototype multiple dispatch"
23:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm getting this sense that Sam Hughes' soul has been sucked out by something.
23:30:29 <elliott__> Also, are you sure it's not your soul that's been sucked?
23:30:36 <elliott__> ais523: am i meant to be commenting on sgeo
23:31:00 <ais523> elliott__: later, there was someone turning up about esoterica, and then got vaguely sucked into esoprogramming
23:31:14 <ais523> also some trolling from cheater that even I recognised as trolling, but I didn't say anything
23:31:44 <elliott__> A wiser strategy than the reciprocation the rest of us get sucked into.
23:32:08 <elliott__> 17:46:33: <ais523> hey, remember when everyone here mocked me for saying I was entering a Pokémon championship, and saying I had no chance?
23:32:37 <pikhq> I recall us asserting that he had little chance, because Pokémon tourny players are quite intense about it.
23:32:44 <pikhq> Not much on the "mocking" though.
23:33:03 <ais523> but this channel generally did, I forget who
23:33:06 <pikhq> Why mock someone for playing a good JRPG?
23:33:10 <ais523> but it was more than one person
23:33:22 <ais523> pikhq: it was for thinking I had a chance at doing well, rather than for playing it
23:33:39 <ais523> people telling me I was underestimating the effort required, etc
23:34:17 <pikhq> Well, it *is* rather a lot of work to be competitive. But apparently, you've done your due diligence.
23:34:54 <oerjan> <zzo38> I once asked them why they make large GNU program like that, they didn't give a very good answer in my opinion
23:35:44 <oerjan> i am now envisioning stupid programmers being forced to explain their reasoning to zzo38
23:35:54 <pikhq> elliott__: Good mechanically.
23:36:00 <pikhq> elliott__: The plot is absolutely banal.
23:36:21 <elliott__> Sgeo_: HEY LOOK HOMESTUCK UPDAEJTROIJD
23:36:24 <elliott__> god its fun being on the other side of bugging
23:36:24 <ais523> elliott__: not any more, there's a new experience formula in Black & White which removes most of the grinding, unless you want a really competitive team
23:36:42 <elliott__> ais523: heh, I even contemplated buying black or white yesterday or so
23:36:48 <ais523> it takes me about 3 hours to get a perfectly-statted competitive Pokémon from near-scratch, if I'm allowed repeatable resources
23:37:00 <ais523> that is, things that were hard to get in the first place but don't get used up in the process
23:37:03 <pikhq> elliott__: Also, 90% grinding is not that big of a deal for a game that's got like 10 or 15 hours to the "end".
23:37:24 <ais523> pikhq: and around 400 or so hours to the actual end, where you fill the Pokédex, that hardly anyone ever reaches
23:37:31 <elliott__> pikhq: Well sure, but it's more addictive than anything :)
23:37:42 <ais523> also, the plots have improved over time
23:37:46 <pikhq> ais523: I consider that, along with competition, to be post-game content.
23:37:54 <elliott__> ais523: sapphire imo was plot perfection
23:37:55 <ais523> in Black & White, the plot is about on the level of a decent children's story
23:38:08 <ais523> elliott__: that was Ruby
23:38:12 <ais523> sapphire was FLOOD THE WORLD
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23:38:20 <pikhq> Or, alternately, you could just say "the story bit is just a side thing".
23:38:20 <elliott__> it's a very, very special kind of stupidity that these villains run on
23:38:36 <ais523> new in Black & White, the villains actually have plausible motivations
23:38:43 <ais523> all of them, even if some of them contradict each other
23:38:44 <pikhq> Emerald was better.
23:38:46 <ais523> and others are being manipulated
23:38:52 <pikhq> ERADICATE ALL WATER *and* FLOOD THE WORLD
23:39:20 <elliott__> ais523: So it'll be literary fiction in a few hundred years?
23:39:25 <CakeProphet> I have to say out of all of the Pokemon games I've played, third generation was the most fun.
23:40:21 <ais523> CakeProphet: I think the 4th gen remakes of the 2nd gen games are best
23:40:33 <ais523> but 5th gen has been growing on me, I used to dislike it a lot but now I rank it pretty high
23:40:42 <CakeProphet> ah, well yes. Any remake of the original games is going to be awesome as well.
23:40:44 <pikhq> I've got a soft spot in my heart for 2nd gen.
23:41:07 <pikhq> Haven't played 4th or 5th gen, due to not owning a DS.
23:41:09 <ais523> and some other pointless spinoffs
23:41:22 <ais523> the generation number is basically about how many Pokémon are involved
23:41:27 <elliott__> btw, is the 3DS' 3D actually any good
23:41:29 <CakeProphet> I'd say third generation is the last generation in which they had good pokemon concepts.
23:42:04 <elliott__> CakeProphet: i suspect nostalgia goggles
23:42:18 <CakeProphet> elliott__: actually no, I didn't play third generation until like two years ago.
23:42:21 <pikhq> Shame, too. If they got actually desperate they could start spelunking mythology. ... And risk becoming Megaten.
23:42:26 <pikhq> Which would actually be awesome.
23:42:54 <elliott__> pikhq: how do you not own a DS? even /ais/ owns a DS
23:43:10 <CakeProphet> elliott__: possible bias in that I haven't actually /played/ fourth and fifth generation. I've only watched other people and looked up some of the pokemon via wiki and thought they were lame.
23:43:13 <pikhq> elliott__: 100 applicants per job opening. Any further questions?
23:43:34 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: Yes but I mean is it annoying.
23:43:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott__, also yeah, you forget pikhq lives in a less developed country than us.
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23:45:10 <oerjan> <Vorpal> interestingly, translating the Swedish word for "hangover" literally to English yields "backsmash"
23:46:04 <oerjan> norwegian is "bakrus" but "rus" doesn't mean smash, it means intoxication
23:46:26 <ais523> e.g. up to Mew is 1st gen, if you go up to Celebi it's 2nd gen, up to Deoxys is 3rd gen, up to Arceus is 4th gen, and up to (as yet unreleased event Pokémon) is 5th gen
23:46:59 <ais523> that wasn't lag, that was me forgetting to press return because I was trying to help deal with a spontaneously exploding glass oven door
23:47:05 <elliott__> ais523: I just want to know when MISSINGNO will be an official part of the Pokédex.
23:47:23 <ais523> elliott__: you do realise it doesn't exist, right?
23:47:40 <elliott__> ais523: By what definition of "doesn't exist"?
23:47:57 <pikhq> It certainly existed in Stadium (Stadium 2, JP).
23:48:03 <elliott__> Bulbapedia says it's #000 in the national ddddex, but maybe that's wrong.
23:48:18 <ais523> well, for one thing it's spelt MISSINGNO. with a dot, but more to the point it has no stats defined but a nam
23:48:30 <ais523> everything else is unrelated memory interpreted as stats
23:48:52 <elliott__> ais523: Plenty of games for such platforms are coded with weird bit-twiddling hacks.
23:48:55 <elliott__> The implementation is rather irrelevant.
23:49:25 <ais523> #000 Unova dex is Victini, they decided to put an actual event mon there
23:49:37 <ais523> although event mons are a ridiculous concept
23:49:50 <ais523> I think #000 has been DP Box for a while now
23:49:56 <ais523> and #000 in first gen was Cancel
23:50:16 <ais523> the menu option that you use to not select anything
23:50:20 <ais523> CakeProphet: short for "monster"
23:50:35 <ais523> just like Pokémon was "pocket monster" before it was contracted to settle a trademark dispute
23:51:19 <ais523> and an event Pokémon is one you can only get by going to a particular Nintendo / tPCI distribution in real life
23:51:36 <ais523> or in some cases, via glitch
23:51:42 <ais523> elliott__: well, that doesn't increase the number in the world
23:51:48 <ais523> but sure, if you can find someone willing to part with one
23:51:49 <elliott__> "The Qi JT<name of player>? POké BB<name of Pokémon> de W N type is the type of the glitch moves TM14 and TM17. Part of the name of this type changes to match the player's name, and another part changes to match the name of the player's Pokémon at the front of the party. For example, if the player's name was ASH and the active Pokémon's name was PIKACHU, the name of this type would be Qi JTASH? POké BBPIKACHU de W N."
23:52:09 <ais523> or who's not above cloning them via glitches or hacks
23:52:19 <elliott__> ais523: annoying artificial scarcity :(
23:52:25 <ais523> WishBliss must have been cloned so many times
23:52:43 <elliott__> It's easy to poison the market by just cloning one a few times and spreading it around, anyway
23:53:00 <ais523> possibly the most infamous event Pokémon in existence, because it was distributed in a pretty narrow distribution (only in New York), is legal in competitive battles, and is really good
23:53:33 <pikhq> ais523: It wasn't contracted to settle a trademark dispute...
23:53:40 <elliott__> "I've heard it from too many people so now I just gotta ask. Is Wish-Blissey seriously banned? I know its hard to get and all having to trade all the way from XD but come on now. Is this serious or is this just Colin's crap from official (Which noone cares bout) still not flushing properly?"
23:53:43 <pikhq> ais523: It was contracted for the sake of not being Engrish.
23:54:03 <ais523> elliott__: no it isn't banned, and it doesn't come from XD, someone is trolling
23:54:04 <pikhq> ais523: It's still sold as "poketto monsutā" in Japan.
23:54:13 <elliott__> CakeProphet: what's wrong with "noone"?
23:54:23 <elliott__> It omits a diaeresis, but so does everyone
23:54:26 <elliott__> ais523: there seems to be no bulbapedia article for WishBliss
23:54:28 <ais523> especially blaming Colin for everything, it's quite a sine of a troll
23:54:37 <ais523> elliott__: it's probably in the article about Blissey or Chansey
23:54:57 <elliott__> CakeProphet: Note that in "no-one", the hyphen is simply taking the place of a diæresis above the second letter.
23:55:08 <elliott__> But it's perfectly valid to simply omit the diæresis altogether.
23:55:12 <ais523> oh, strange, Bulbapedia doesn't even mention it as existing
23:55:24 <ais523> Wish is nowhere in the learnset
23:55:25 <CakeProphet> elliott__: right, but "noone" is silly and should never be used. no-one is fine.
23:55:40 <elliott__> CakeProphet: I am stunned by your flawless justification.
23:55:50 <CakeProphet> I mean, it should be obvious why it's bad.
23:55:52 <elliott__> I don't use "noone" either for aesthetic concerns, but to say it's not a word is ridiculous :P
23:56:00 <ais523> ah no, it's just hidden in a subpage
23:56:12 <ais523> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_event_Pok%C3%A9mon_in_2004#Wish_Chansey
23:56:17 <CakeProphet> it's a non-standard word, at least. People use it, but they probably need to die or something. -shrug-
23:56:46 <pikhq> Where's augur when you need him?
23:57:04 <ais523> I think that's also the only way to get Sweet Scent on a Chansey/Blissey, but nobody cares
23:57:14 <CakeProphet> Just a small English language pet peeve of mine, one of few.
23:58:19 <pikhq> Honeſtly, if you're going to go preſcriptiviſt, you ſhould go all þe way.
23:58:46 <elliott__> CakeProphet: can i pick on you for saying a bunch of non-standard shit that shakespeare just made up for shits and giggles?