←2011-06-08 2011-06-09 2011-06-10→ ↑2011 ↑all
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00:04:39 <oerjan> hm what about just i
00:10:05 <oerjan> `c```csx = ````csx(*) = ```s(```*x(*))x(*) = ``(```*x(*))(*)`x(*) = ```(*)x(*) = x
00:10:06 <HackEgo> No output.
00:10:30 <oerjan> which isn't quite what's needed
00:11:29 <oerjan> *-` a couple places
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00:13:11 <oerjan> ``ccx = `(`*x)x = `xx hm what
00:13:12 <HackEgo> No output.
00:13:17 <oerjan> !show ucat
00:13:18 <EgoBot> ​That is not a user interpreter!
00:13:33 <oerjan> i deleted it hm
00:15:02 <oerjan> oh hm the last version didn't use ``sii
00:15:17 <oerjan> 20:20:33: <EgoBot> ​unlambda ```s`d`@|i`ci
00:16:50 <pikhq_> "Someone said "I know, let's make a porn version of The Human Centipede!". And others listened. And now it's out on DVD. May the gods forgive us." https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/The_Human_Sexipede , via Reddit.
00:16:54 <pikhq_> :(
00:17:05 <oerjan> !addinterp utest unlambda ``cc``d`@|`ci
00:17:05 <EgoBot> ​Interpreter utest installed.
00:17:22 <oerjan> !utest ho hum
00:17:23 <EgoBot> ​ho hum
00:17:51 * oerjan cackles evilly
00:18:36 <oerjan> !delinterp utest
00:18:37 <EgoBot> ​Interpreter utest deleted.
00:18:49 <oerjan> !addinterp ucat unlambda ``cc``d`@|`cc
00:18:50 <EgoBot> ​Interpreter ucat installed.
00:18:56 <oerjan> !ucat and how
00:18:57 <EgoBot> ​and how
00:22:25 <oerjan> hm that's very close to that famous counter
00:25:15 <oerjan> since in fact `ci, `cc and `cd are all equivalent
00:27:03 * oerjan knows just enough about the human centipede that he doesn't want to know more, so was assuming it was sort of porn already
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00:31:08 <oerjan> !delinterp ucat
00:31:08 <EgoBot> ​Interpreter ucat deleted.
00:31:15 <oerjan> !addinterp ucat unlambda ``cd``d`@|`cd
00:31:15 <EgoBot> ​Interpreter ucat installed.
00:31:27 <oerjan> !ucat Fnord
00:31:28 <EgoBot> ​Fnord
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00:42:59 <oerjan> !ucat a
00:42:59 <EgoBot> ​a
00:43:01 <oerjan> !ucat ab
00:43:02 <EgoBot> ​ab
00:43:03 <oerjan> !ucat abc
00:43:04 <EgoBot> ​abc
00:43:06 <oerjan> !ucat abcd
00:43:06 <EgoBot> ​abcd
00:43:08 <oerjan> !ucat abcde
00:43:09 <EgoBot> ​abcde
00:43:54 <oerjan> i realized there was a subtlety in that ``sii ~ `cc = `cd replacement, but it seems to work anyway
00:44:34 <oerjan> (basically applying `cc may reevaluate the argument, which ``sii doesn't)
00:45:51 <oerjan> it is possible there's some huge thunk building because of this...
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01:06:40 <oerjan> ah seems like there is, and it may need to test for eof several times before actually halting
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02:19:19 <oerjan> :t at
02:19:20 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `at'
02:21:38 <oerjan> @hoogle atMay
02:21:39 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe catMaybes :: [Maybe a] -> [a]
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04:25:49 <pikhq_> Jesus. DNF is actually out.
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04:33:23 <Sgeo> I think I'll just watch a Let's Play
04:34:12 <pikhq> I think I'll just continue listening to Flood.
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04:37:52 <pikhq> "Back in the summer of '87 he owned a giant venomous lizard. It somehow managed to escape, which led to the police shooting it with a shotgun. Because of the lack of laws against lizards, he was charged with possession of a "venomous, tree climbing alligator".
04:37:56 <pikhq> The above story was reported in Weekly World News as "police battle giant lizard". As a result, this is the only true and verifiable story ever reported in that tabloid."
04:38:02 <pikhq> Aaaand continue laughing.
04:55:32 <myndzi> nice
04:55:34 <myndzi> WWN for the win!
05:13:10 * Sgeo sees another Sennheiser recommendation
05:15:59 <pikhq> I can't personally recommend Sennheiser, but only for lack of personal experience.
05:16:50 <Sgeo> ....I thought you were the one in here who recommended them
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05:18:34 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> ....I thought you were the one in here who recommended them
05:19:49 <pikhq_> I do know they have a very good reputation among both reasonable people and audiophiles.
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05:26:45 <Sgeo> That dichotomy (sp?) makes me laugh
05:41:23 <Patashu> I have sennheiser earphones
05:41:26 <Patashu> They're good I recommend them
05:41:33 <Patashu> Not sure about anything else they make
06:05:33 <myndzi> i have a pair of hd590s
06:05:41 <myndzi> i got em for $20 new courtesy of aol and amazon
06:05:42 <myndzi> ;p
06:07:42 <Sgeo> I should probably get my left ear fixed first
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07:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote 448
07:08:24 <HackEgo> ​448) <olsner> ... you make me tried <elliott> Nice, fucking this corpse.
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07:33:13 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: why did you want that specific quote?
07:33:26 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, to see if it had been changed.
07:34:36 <olsner> I don't know how to change quotes anyway
07:34:54 <Phantom_Hoover> AtM it consists of a revert and re-adding it.
07:43:10 <pikhq_> Why is it so utterly difficult to force myself to sleep?
07:43:23 <pikhq_> It's not even like I'm doing anything relevant.
07:43:37 <pikhq_> Or, indeed, anything but Reddit and IRC.
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07:46:16 <olsner> I think one of the first things that goes when you become slightly tired is the little piece of planning brain that makes you go to sleep when you should
07:46:33 <olsner> so then you won't go to sleep until you're too tired to stay awake
07:47:15 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.khanacademy.org/video/basic-trigonometry?playlist=Trigonometry
07:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I expected better.
07:47:51 <pikhq_> olsner: Probably just after the "do things that actually matter" piece.
07:48:17 <Phantom_Hoover> There is not a single circle drawn in that video, so it doesn't actually explain any of the underlying structure.
07:48:54 <olsner> pikhq_: I wonder if I even *have* one of those
07:49:01 <pikhq_> I'm sure I do.
07:49:07 <pikhq_> I'm also pretty sure it's on the fritz.
07:50:37 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, circles are the single most fundamental thing for trig.
07:51:04 <pikhq_> Well, namely, the inherent relationships between circles and triangles that we call the trig functions.
07:53:27 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Why were you watching a Khan Academy video on trig, anyways?
07:53:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/hv41b/this_should_be_the_first_thing_shown_in_all/
07:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone said it should be the first thing posted, thus completely missing the point.
07:54:42 * Phantom_Hoover decides to actually find the derivation of sin' = cos.
07:55:30 <pikhq_> Khan Academy's pretty good usually, but circles and triangles are what you should be getting shown in trig...
07:55:40 <pikhq_> Because *that's all it is*.
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08:15:24 <Patashu> trigonometry courses should teach tau
08:15:46 <pikhq_> Also true.
08:17:07 <Patashu> http://www.touchtrigonometry.org/ is cool but an information overload
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08:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I think Sam Hughes summed up the whole tau debate nicely.
08:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "Tau is the Dvorak of trigonometry."
08:22:25 <olsner> making Pi the QWERTY of trigonometry?
08:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
08:23:43 <pikhq_> That is... Actually a good summation of it.
08:25:10 <Patashu> it's much much easier to introduce tau than pi though
08:25:19 <Patashu> if you're ever speaking to a pi unfamiliar audience just add one line: let tau = 2*pi
08:25:22 <Patashu> and then proceed as normal
08:25:39 <Patashu> if you want to use dvorak on a qwerty keyboard you have to spend several weeks learning it and be able to swap the keyboard back and forth when you change computers
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08:25:49 <Patashu> also dvorak isn't the best layout anyway, colemak is
08:27:14 <pikhq_> Yes, but even fewer people have heard of Colemak, making it a bit harder to use in analogies.
08:27:43 <Patashu> yeah
08:27:46 <Patashu> I just like to bring it up and feel :smug:
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08:49:03 <CakeProphet> ?info ($)
08:49:03 <lambdabot> ($)
08:49:12 <CakeProphet> @src ($)
08:49:12 <lambdabot> f $ x = f x
08:49:20 <CakeProphet> @hoogle ($)
08:49:20 <lambdabot> Prelude ($) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b
08:49:21 <lambdabot> Data.Function ($) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b
08:49:21 <lambdabot> Prelude ($!) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b
08:49:30 <CakeProphet> ...how did elliott get fixity declarations.
08:52:15 <Patashu> I think you need to find the source code
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13:24:41 <ais523> hmm, Slashdot is awesome sometimes
13:24:52 <ais523> there was an argument about whether Microsoft was ditching Silverlight
13:25:18 <ais523> and it brew into an argument about cross-platformness
13:25:47 <ais523> with a comparison to Java vs. .NET
13:26:04 <ais523> and someone claimed that there wasn't a Java impl for the Amiga, and someone came up with a counterexample
13:26:13 <ais523> (later on, a C64 emulator in Silverlight came up, in order to complete the circuit)
13:30:08 <ais523> hmm, does anyone here know about Haskell Core?
13:30:24 <ais523> my supervisor mentioned it as something that might be useful for my research, but I've wanted something like that for esolanging for a while too
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14:12:11 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> ...how did elliott get fixity declarations.
14:12:16 <oerjan> by using my trick
14:12:22 <oerjan> > (0$0 $!)
14:12:22 <lambdabot> The operator `Prelude.$!' [infixr 0] of a section
14:12:23 <lambdabot> must have lower prec...
14:13:40 <oerjan> also, lambdabot has no command [?@:]info
14:13:51 <oerjan> only spelling correction
14:15:16 <oerjan> <ais523> hmm, does anyone here know about Haskell Core?
14:15:23 <oerjan> a little bit?
14:15:34 <ais523> I know nothing besides the name and that it desugars Haskell
14:16:05 <ais523> and even that information's from an unreliable source
14:16:16 <oerjan> it's ghc's first intermediate language. it's explicitly typed (all type inference happens before) using a type system called F_c which is easily extensible with new features
14:16:59 <oerjan> i think typeclasses are also desugared away before it, so it uses explicit method dictionary passing
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14:19:03 <oerjan> i think newtypes are implemented using some kind of type-checked cast in core
14:19:49 <oerjan> and most of ghc's high level optimizations such as rules happen at the core stage
14:20:52 <oerjan> because you still have type checking for sanity there
14:22:31 <oerjan> for example ghc rules only trigger when the rewritten term has the same type as the old one
14:24:04 <oerjan> and of course as you say, syntactically desugared
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15:55:38 <Sgeo> Reading Jailbreak
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16:44:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you realise it's a) incomplete and b) of far inferior quality to PS, right?
16:45:04 <Sgeo> I finished reading PS
16:45:11 <oklopol> so you can implement all boolean functions with dominoes, without using bridges
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16:56:13 * Phantom_Hoover briefly flirts with the idea of getting some Bitcoins.
16:58:24 * Phantom_Hoover notes that they don't even mention the drugs on the website.
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17:06:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what drugs
17:06:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the drugs which are the one thing everyone knows you can buy with Bitcoin.
17:07:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what? Pull the other one...
17:07:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, erm, why is that implausible?
17:08:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm...
17:10:18 <Phantom_Hoover> It is quite hard to get reliable information on the matter, admittedly.
17:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> For some perspective, a lot of it seems to stem from Adrian Chen.
17:12:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who is this Adrian Chen?
17:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
17:13:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what?
17:13:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well who is he?
17:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> He's one of the creators of Gawker, and noted unpleasant person.
17:15:24 <Vorpal> ah. *googles gawker*
17:16:57 <Sgeo> Was he behind the lucidending thing?
17:17:16 <Phantom_Hoover> He was joking, as it turns out.
17:17:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, about the bitcoin thing? heh
17:17:43 <Phantom_Hoover> No, about lucidending.
17:17:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (Who was still almost certainly a troll.)
17:18:01 <Gregor> "Noted unpleasant person" lol
17:18:07 * Vorpal googles "lucidending"
17:20:41 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/fy6yz/51_hours_left_to_live/
17:20:44 <Sgeo> "[deleted]"?
17:21:09 <Vorpal> reddit.com: timeout. heh
17:21:22 <Vorpal> hm works now
17:21:27 <Vorpal> probably on my end
17:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> "Noted unpleasant person" lol ← I couldn't really say anything stronger without citing hearsay.
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17:33:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ...oh god today's SMBC was barely funny at all.
17:33:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Please Zach god please don't undergo the SMBCdecay.
17:35:20 <Gregor> SMBXKCD
17:37:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Given Zach's inexplicable respect for Munroe...
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17:46:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it was still a LOT more dirty than xkcd
17:46:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, erm, have you *read* xkcd?
17:47:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I point at 610 and leave it at that.
17:47:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about 610?
17:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *631
17:47:55 <Vorpal> ah
17:49:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is TGI though
17:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Thank god it's.
17:49:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I think TGI Fridays is a restaurant.
17:49:50 <Vorpal> ah
17:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> But it looks like you're trying to understand 631. Stop.
17:50:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, 631 doesn't make sense
17:50:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Walk slowly away from it.
17:53:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the H-M algorithm is quite ingenious, don't you agree. Yet it makes perfect sense.
17:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Um...
17:53:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I mean Hindley–Milner
17:54:04 <Vorpal> type inference algorithm
17:54:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ...yes, so why did you just say that?
17:54:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I found a page on it open in a tab in firefox, as I was working through the backlog
17:56:46 <Vorpal> hm is it possible to make a language that is NP-complete to *parse*?
17:56:49 <Vorpal> err
17:56:53 <Vorpal> NP-equivalent
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18:07:26 <copumpkin> Vorpal: a language in which a given line is a comment if the sum of the lengths of any subset of the lines preceding it is 42
18:09:12 <copumpkin> although I guess that's a little easier than the usual phrasing of it
18:09:23 <copumpkin> since you can automatically exclude any lines longer than 42
18:09:25 <copumpkin> so how about
18:09:56 <copumpkin> the language requires all lines to be shorter than 80 characters, and the sum I want is some reasonably decent sized number such that you can't make optimizations like that
18:10:15 <Sgeo> It's not a bad idea to just use a parser generator, is it?
18:10:15 <copumpkin> or actually, the length - 40 adds to 0
18:10:32 <copumpkin> yeah
18:10:34 <copumpkin> it's a terrible idea
18:18:36 <Vorpal> copumpkin, ah good idea
18:19:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why would it be in general?
18:19:26 <Sgeo> What about in my case?
18:19:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is your case
18:19:53 <Sgeo> Someone who wants to write a compiler but is generally clueless
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18:21:21 <olsner> using a parser generator is kind of like using a library containing code you didn't write yourself
18:25:04 <Sgeo> So, if I were zzo38, avoid them
18:25:07 <Sgeo> >.>
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18:27:01 <monqy> have you considered getting a clue about compilers? Anyway, parsing is the simplest/most trivial part of compiling any interesting language
18:28:14 <Sgeo> Define "interesting"
18:28:29 <Sgeo> Also, I don't think I'm going for optimizations here
18:28:37 <Sgeo> I'm not quite smart enough for that
18:28:52 <Sgeo> Also, I'm compiling into a pseudo-bytecode, not into x86 or anything
18:29:27 <monqy> well if your language is trivially equivalent to the target, the actual work is pretty trivial
18:29:32 <monqy> trivial trivial
18:29:55 <Sgeo> Well, target will expect CPS
18:30:02 <monqy> expect?
18:30:16 <Sgeo> As in, not possible to write non-CPS code in it
18:30:37 <monqy> isn't the target lsl?
18:31:00 <monqy> or did something change about that
18:31:14 <monqy> or was I never fully in on it
18:32:20 <Sgeo> Target is technically LSL, but most of the LSL code will be an interpreter
18:32:28 <Sgeo> That interprets the contents of a few lists
18:33:06 <Phantom_Hoover> What on earth are you trying to make.
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18:33:28 <monqy> sgeo thinks continuations will solve all of his second life problems
18:33:42 <olsner> Sgeo: oh, is this that thing where you're working on a better scripting language for second life?
18:33:47 <Sgeo> Yes
18:41:34 <pikhq> I find that YACC-like parser generators suck.
18:45:47 <ais523> pikhq: I actually find them kind-of useful
18:45:56 <ais523> depending on what you do with them
18:46:51 <pikhq> They tend to be overcomplicated and make writing a recursive-decent parser manually seem like a good idea, in my experience. :P
18:47:25 <ais523> when I try that, I find it's much like writing for a yacc-like but with more boilerplate, and comes to the same thing
18:47:44 <monqy> what other sorts of parser generators are there
18:47:44 <ais523> although my grammars tend to have just the one nonterminal
18:47:47 <ais523> or maybe two at a pinch
18:47:58 <pikhq> Anyways, the *real* way to write a parser is Parsec.
18:47:58 <ais523> because fewer nonterminals tends to imply a better-designed language
18:48:16 <monqy> oh yes parsec
18:50:02 <pikhq> Well, more generally, parsing combinators is the way to do it, and Parsec is the best implementation of that.
18:52:39 * Sgeo wants Parsec for Javascript
18:53:32 <olsner> hmm, you don't know how to write a parser but you know what parsec is well enough to want it in javascript?
18:53:49 <pikhq> olsner: Parsec is easier than writing a parser by hand. :P
18:54:09 <pikhq> Though at least in decent languages even a hand parser isn't too bad.
18:54:49 <monqy> another questions: why javascript?
18:55:08 <pikhq> Where "decent" means "Has pattern matching and lambdas" in this context, I *think*.
18:55:19 <pikhq> ... Waaait, that includes C++. God no.
18:56:06 <monqy> C++ sort of kind of has pattern matching and lambdas
18:57:06 <ais523> if defining languages by features, always remember to explicitly exclude C++
18:57:30 <pikhq> monqy: It *very much* has type-level pattern matching and type-level lambdas.
18:57:50 <Sgeo> I want it to be easily accessible
18:58:11 <monqy> hello type-level parsec?
18:58:16 <olsner> hmm, parsec ported to c++ templates
18:58:33 <monqy> or at least a type-level parser or something
18:58:36 <olsner> now that's an abomination you can enjoy
18:59:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: If you want it accessible to complete noobs, offer Windows binaries.
19:02:40 <Sgeo> pikhq, is Javascript that terrible that that's the best option for accessibility
19:02:41 <Sgeo> ?
19:08:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "Divers weights are an abomination to the LORD;" — the Bible
19:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover> So I guess you need to swim against your own buoyancy or something?
19:09:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably ties into all the shellfish stuff.
19:10:38 <Sgeo> http://bible.cc/proverbs/20-23.htm
19:11:23 <Sgeo> From looking at all the other translations, I'm going to assume it's just missing an e
19:14:02 <ais523> Sgeo: that's actually an old-fashioned spelling of "diverse"
19:14:20 <Sgeo> Ah
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19:45:54 <oerjan> <oklopol> so you can implement all boolean functions with dominoes, without using bridges
19:45:57 <oerjan> wat
19:49:06 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> ...yes, so why did you just say that?
19:49:14 <oerjan> Vorpal suffers from EAS
19:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> EAS?
19:50:10 <oerjan> excessive acronym syndrome
19:50:11 <oerjan> <Vorpal> hm is it possible to make a language that is NP-complete to *parse*?
19:50:20 <oerjan> my guess is, almost certainly
19:50:23 <ais523> Vorpal: you can do better, Perl is Turing-complete to parse
19:50:44 <ais523> mostly because you can put arbitrary code in the parser
19:50:59 <oerjan> well context-sensitive languages are well known to include PSPACE-complete stuff
19:51:42 <oerjan> context-free languages otoh have O(n^3) algorithms
19:52:24 <oerjan> O(n^2) if unambiguous iirc
19:53:38 <oerjan> <Vorpal> hm is it possible to make a language that is NP-complete to *parse*?
19:53:42 <oerjan> er
19:53:48 <oerjan> 17:56:49: <Vorpal> err
19:53:48 <oerjan> 17:56:53: <Vorpal> NP-equivalent
19:54:07 <oerjan> if NP-equivalent means anything there, it's the same as NP-complete
19:55:03 <oerjan> <copumpkin> Vorpal: a language in which a given line is a comment if the sum of the lengths of any subset of the lines preceding it is 42
19:55:14 <oerjan> if 42 is fixed, then that won't be NP-complete
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19:55:47 <copumpkin> I adapted my suggestion
19:55:49 <copumpkin> after that
19:55:55 <oerjan> ah
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19:56:32 <oerjan> copumpkin: also i think it won't be for _any_ fixed number so your adaptation won't work
19:57:01 <copumpkin> why not?
19:57:34 <oerjan> let your number be n. make an array of n bools.
19:57:56 <oerjan> initialized to False, except index 0
19:58:16 <copumpkin> (I adapted it to include negative numbers)
19:59:01 <oerjan> then whenever you add a new item j, iterate through the array and make i+j True if i is
19:59:18 <oerjan> so you always have the set of possible sums.
19:59:47 <oerjan> right that won't work with negative numbers
19:59:54 <copumpkin> that was the adaptation
20:00:04 <oerjan> you had another one first
20:00:31 <oerjan> <olsner> using a parser generator is kind of like using a library containing code you didn't write yourself
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20:00:59 <copumpkin> :)
20:01:05 <oerjan> for LALR(1) parsing i'd say it's "code you probably _couldn't_ write yourself without messing it up"
20:01:13 <copumpkin> someone should write that parser
20:01:53 <oerjan> which parser
20:02:29 <copumpkin> the NP-complete parser
20:03:52 <oerjan> oh hm wait when you say lines should be _shorter_ than 80 characters, i am thinking - is _that_ still NP-complete? can't you no just count the number of lines of each length?
20:03:54 -!- Kustas has left.
20:04:01 <Sgeo> A member of the MSPA music team just followed me on Twitter
20:04:08 <oerjan> mind you i'm not sure that isn't still NP-complete
20:04:11 <oerjan> *now
20:05:33 * oerjan googles
20:10:05 <oerjan> dammit wikipedia is impenetrably phrased
20:14:55 <copumpkin> the subset-sum problem reduces pretty trivially to it
20:15:36 <oerjan> um i thought your idea _was_ the subset-sum problem, pretty exactly
20:16:05 <copumpkin> well, my idea is a language where parsing it requires solving it :P
20:16:15 <copumpkin> so it isn't exactly it
20:16:25 <copumpkin> but it's pretty obviously related :P
20:16:26 <oerjan> i _think_ the wikipedia article may imply that bounding either the number of sets or the size of elements makes it polynomial, although it's by no means clear
20:16:39 <oerjan> *number of elements
20:16:52 <copumpkin> well then remove the bound
20:16:57 <copumpkin> subtract some number so we still get negatives
20:17:00 <copumpkin> fuck the distribution
20:17:44 <oerjan> oh well
20:17:53 <copumpkin> or maybe negate every other line?
20:17:56 <copumpkin> that should work, right?
20:20:19 <oerjan> i think i'm too tried [sic] for this
20:23:17 <oerjan> google, now with free guitar
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20:54:44 <pikhq_> Wow. There's a palladium credit card. That's not a stupid marketing name. The card is literally made of palladium.
20:54:48 <elliott> xD
20:54:49 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, awesome.
20:55:03 <Phantom_Hoover> EXCEPT
20:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It should be whichever metal I settled on as Best.
20:55:22 <pikhq_> Iridium?
20:55:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I think rhenium was in the running as well, and the last one I considered was tantalum-180m.
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20:57:46 <pikhq_> Sure enough, rhenium is rarer.
20:59:19 <Phantom_Hoover> But tantalum-180m is rarer still.
20:59:34 <pikhq_> Ruthenium and rhodium are rarer still and are also stable...
20:59:54 <Phantom_Hoover> TOO MAINSTREAM
21:00:00 <pikhq_> Though both are fission products of U-235, making it possible they wouldn't be if someone decided to fuck with you.
21:00:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Um. That Is Not How Quantities Work.
21:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Tantalum-180m is the rarest stable primordial nucleus, though.
21:01:01 <pikhq_> The thing is, someone could *manufacture* ruthenium and rhodium.
21:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Yet another reason to use tantalum-180m!
21:02:26 <pikhq_> Yeah, tantalum-180m seems to win.
21:03:18 <pikhq_> Though 180m is technically not stable.
21:03:33 <pikhq_> Just close enough for most intents and purposes.
21:03:44 <pikhq_> (half-life of *at least* 10^15 years)
21:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> It has never actually been observed to decay.
21:04:15 <pikhq_> Yes, but it's still technically not stable.
21:05:10 <pikhq_> It just has a half life larger than the universe's age.
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21:07:11 <pikhq_> (which is about 1.3*10^9 years
21:07:11 <pikhq_> )
21:07:12 * Sgeo still finds it unintuitive that a probability 0 event can occur.
21:07:22 <Sgeo> I mean, I understand it, it's just weird
21:07:51 <pikhq_> Oh, and 10^15 years is the *lower bound* on the half life.
21:08:07 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Technically, there are no events with probability 0 in reality.
21:08:24 <pikhq_> Just events with probability sufficiently low that their floating point representation is 0. :P
21:08:48 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, I was totally doing the whole tantalum-180m thing like a month ago get with the nuclear times.
21:09:44 <elliott> the best giraffe has yet to exist
21:10:03 <elliott> > var "uh oh"
21:10:03 <lambdabot> uh oh
21:10:06 <elliott> oh
21:10:34 <elliott> 22:54:46: <pikhq_> Mmmkay, patches pushed upstream.
21:10:34 <elliott> 22:56:49: <pikhq_> Which feels kinda weird, TBH.
21:10:44 <elliott> pikhq_: To musl or util-linux-ng or what? :P
21:10:51 <elliott> ah, util-linux-ng
21:10:51 <pikhq_> elliott: util-linux.
21:11:05 <pikhq_> And I have some more to push in a bit.
21:11:13 <pikhq_> i.e. "When I feel like it".
21:11:18 <Phantom_Hoover> > thanks "pikhq"
21:11:19 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `thanks'
21:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott
21:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> What happened
21:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> To thanks
21:11:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oerjan broke it
21:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan
21:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You are terrible
21:11:46 <elliott> ?let thanks xs = if any ((`elem` "aeiou") . toLower) xs then text . (++ ".") . (("Thanks, " ++ xs ++ ". Th") ++) . dropWhile ((`notElem` "aeiou") . toLower) $ xs else text "What are you, Welsh?"
21:11:47 <lambdabot> Defined.
21:11:52 <elliott> > thanks "util-linux"
21:11:53 <lambdabot> Thanks, util-linux. Thutil-linux.
21:12:07 <elliott> 00:04:39: <oerjan> hm what about just i
21:12:08 <elliott> 00:10:05: <oerjan> `c```csx = ````csx(*) = ```s(```*x(*))x(*) = ``(```*x(*))(*)`x(*) = ```(*)x(*) = x
21:12:09 <elliott> oerjan: what prompted dis
21:12:25 <Patashu> is there an unlambda interpreter in haskell?
21:12:30 <elliott> oh, previous line
21:12:40 <elliott> Patashu: it takes like ten minutes to write one, so almost certainly
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21:12:43 <elliott> oerjan probably has one, even :P
21:12:58 <elliott> yep
21:12:59 <elliott> http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/Unlambda.hs
21:13:06 <elliott> hm what
21:13:07 <elliott> http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/code/lambdabot/scripts/Unlambda.hs
21:13:09 <elliott> dons changed it
21:13:11 <elliott> I wonder what he changed?
21:13:19 <elliott> oerjan:
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21:13:26 <elliott> oh, time limited
21:13:27 <elliott> and output too
21:13:29 <elliott> must be what's in lambdabot
21:13:56 <elliott> 00:16:50: <pikhq_> "Someone said "I know, let's make a porn version of The Human Centipede!". And others listened. And now it's out on DVD. May the gods forgive us." https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/The_Human_Sexipede , via Reddit.
21:13:56 <elliott> 00:16:54: <pikhq_> :(
21:13:56 <elliott> amazing
21:14:10 <Patashu> lol
21:14:11 <elliott> A parody of The Human Centipede, in 'The Human Sexipede', Dr. Heiter kidnaps two young American girls and an Asian man, all of whom are unable to achieve sexual satisfaction through everyday sexual behaviour. He presents them with the idea of joining them Mouth to Genitals, so that they are able to continually pleasure each other by way of oral sex and finally achieve sexual satisfaction.
21:14:15 <elliott> why did he need to kidnap them
21:14:27 <elliott> if he "presents them with the idea" why couldn't he just like tell them
21:14:31 <elliott> the kidnapping seems totally superfluous
21:14:34 <elliott> THIS PORN HAS A REALLY BAD PLOT
21:15:03 <elliott> "The Human Centipede II (Full Sequence) is an upcoming British horror film directed by Dutch filmmaker Tom Six. The sequel to 2010's Dutch film The Human Centipede (First Sequence), the film has been scheduled for release on DVD in 2011 but has been banned from distribution in the United Kingdom due to its explicit content."
21:15:05 <pikhq_> It's porn. You expect good writing?
21:15:12 <elliott> i can't buy the sequel to human centipede
21:15:12 <elliott> :<
21:15:14 * elliott crushed
21:15:22 <elliott> The film centres on an antagonist called Martin (Laurence Harvey), who becomes sexually obsessed with a DVD recording of the film within the film, The Human Centipede (First Sequence). In the DVD, a surgeon kidnaps three people and surgically connects them mouth-to-anus. Martin masturbates as he watches the film, with sandpaper wrapped around his penis. He subsequently creates his own twelve-person "human centipede" and gains sexual gratification
21:15:22 <elliott> from the pain, humiliation and suffering of his victims. He is shown to become aroused whenever a member of his centipede defecates, and their faeces are forced into the mouth of the victim behind them. He rapes the woman at the rear of the centipede, with barbed wire wrapped around his penis.[1]
21:15:24 <elliott> meta
21:15:50 <elliott> "He rapes the woman at the rear of the centipede, with barbed wire wrapped around his penis."
21:15:51 <elliott> man what
21:16:02 <pikhq_> It's clearly a depiction of what the same film is doing to the audience.
21:16:10 <elliott> Tom Six claimed the sequel would be much more graphic and disturbing , making the first film seem like "My Little Pony compared with part two."
21:16:36 <elliott> Comparing Full Sequence with the first film; the BBFC said that whilst First Sequence was "undoubtedly tasteless and disgusting",[11] the content of First Sequence had been acceptable for release because the centipede of said film was the product of a "revolting medical experiment".
21:16:43 <elliott> so it's OK if you don't get off on it
21:16:51 <Patashu> the human centipede is kind of disgusting
21:16:55 <Patashu> 'medical experiment' o
21:17:01 <pikhq_> elliott: The doctor who did it was getting off on it.
21:17:14 <pikhq_> Half the premise is that he had a sick fetish.
21:17:16 <elliott> "Six criticised the BBFC for including film spoilers in their report"
21:17:17 <elliott> "Six criticised the BBFC for including film spoilers in their report"
21:17:18 <elliott> "Six criticised the BBFC for including film spoilers in their report"
21:17:18 <elliott> "Six criticised the BBFC for including film spoilers in their report"
21:17:26 <Patashu> spoiler alert
21:17:29 <Patashu> people will be jointed mouth to anus
21:17:38 <elliott> and barbed wire will be wrapped around a penis
21:18:36 <pikhq_> I have mixed feelings about this. First, it's an absolutely, horrifying concept without any artistic merit. Second, fiction should never ever ever ever be banned. Ever.
21:18:45 <pikhq_> Even if you're joining people mouth to anus.
21:19:33 <elliott> its pretty hilarious imo
21:19:41 <elliott> banning it is just stupid, no mixed feelings
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21:20:11 <pikhq_> I don't want a fucking sequel published at all. But I don't want to stop any sick fuck from doing so, either.
21:20:34 <elliott> i don't see what you have against it, people can film anything they want if they're not harming anyone
21:20:54 <elliott> apparently the first film was pretty funny
21:20:56 <elliott> i haven't seen it though
21:21:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so I infer that you are completely opposed to hate speech laws?
21:21:09 <pikhq_> elliott: It's more "brain bleach" kinda reaction than anything else.
21:21:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "if they're not harming anyone"
21:21:33 <pikhq_> elliott: Sure, people should be able to film anything they want if they're not harming anyone.
21:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, define 'harm', then.
21:21:42 <pikhq_> That doesn't mean I want them to.
21:21:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's for the courts :P
21:22:08 <elliott> Obviously paying a bunch of consenting actors to pretend to be sewn together isn't harming anyone.
21:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and if the court rule that Human Centipede 2 is harmful?
21:22:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then I believe they'll have made the wrong decision.
21:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And making a film called "Let's Kill All The Jews" doesn't harm anyone involved in the production.
21:23:24 <elliott> No, but depicting a bunch of people sewn together isn't harming any minority either.
21:23:37 <elliott> People who aren't sewn together is a pretty large majority, in fact.
21:23:41 <hagb4rd> i believe the answer is: no tolerance for intolarance
21:23:44 <hagb4rd> @hoover
21:23:44 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
21:23:48 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: The mere act of producing such a thing does not really harm anyone.
21:24:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, it's not like neo-Nazis can't watch "Let's Kill All The Jews" if they want to anyway; it's called the internet.
21:24:25 <elliott> Hate speech laws are probably ineffective in such an instance.
21:24:46 <pikhq_> That said, hate speech laws get very annoying edge cases. It's kinda inherent in the concept...
21:24:48 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan probably has one, even :P <-- the one on hackage is based on mine
21:25:15 <elliott> I'm pretty sure The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect would have been banned from publication if it was written quite a bit earlier
21:25:25 <elliott> (Not that it has been published other than self-)
21:25:34 <pikhq_> Most definitely.
21:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, it does seem that the BBFC has simply refused to classify it, which isn't quite banning it.
21:26:15 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> What happened <-- when anyone anywhere issues the @undefine command to lambdabot, all @let's are discarded. sorry, that's just the way it is.
21:26:16 <elliott> When classifying First Sequence, the BBFC had also taken legal advice that the film was not in breach of the Obscene Publications Act.[12] In contrast, the BBFC felt that the centipede of Full Sequence existed as purely "the object of the protagonist's depraved sexual fantasy".[11]
21:26:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That seems like they're at least strongly implying it would be illegal to publish it in their view
21:26:39 <elliott> The BBFC's report heavily criticised the film as making "little attempt to portray any of the victims in the film as anything other than objects to be brutalised, degraded and mutilated for the amusement and arousal of the central character, as well as for the pleasure of the audience"[1] and that the film was potentially in breach of the Obscene Publications Act, meaning its distribution in the UK (either in physical or download format) would be
21:26:39 <elliott> illegal[13], The BBFC stated that they would not reclassify the film in future, as "no amount of cuts would allow them to give it a certificate".[13]
21:26:47 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Since you can't sell unclassified works in the UK, it is pretty much banned.
21:26:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So yeah, they've said distributing it would be illegal.
21:26:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Potentially in breach, not actually in breach.
21:27:01 <pikhq_> Well, non-exempt video works.
21:27:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, they could go against the BBFC, but I bet they'd lose in court.
21:27:16 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: what prompted dis <-- i started wondering about the power of just ` c and s
21:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Whether it's actually banned-as-in-you-can't-watch-it is unclear unless the courts decide one way or the other.
21:27:33 <elliott> It's obviously not banned to watch, just distribute
21:27:53 <elliott> 04:37:52: <pikhq> "Back in the summer of '87 he owned a giant venomous lizard. It somehow managed to escape, which led to the police shooting it with a shotgun. Because of the lack of laws against lizards, he was charged with possession of a "venomous, tree climbing alligator".
21:27:54 <elliott> 04:37:56: <pikhq> The above story was reported in Weekly World News as "police battle giant lizard". As a result, this is the only true and verifiable story ever reported in that tabloid."
21:27:54 <elliott> 04:38:02: <pikhq> Aaaand continue laughing.
21:27:55 <elliott> rationalwiki :(
21:28:37 <Phantom_Hoover> That's from RW?
21:28:40 <hagb4rd> would you say speech laws exclude the freedom of language and the ability of express everything you want to say?
21:28:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i googled, it is
21:29:38 <pikhq_> hagb4rd: I think you a word.
21:30:36 <elliott> 08:25:10: <Patashu> it's much much easier to introduce tau than pi though
21:30:36 <elliott> 08:25:19: <Patashu> if you're ever speaking to a pi unfamiliar audience just add one line: let tau = 2*pi
21:30:36 <elliott> 08:25:22: <Patashu> and then proceed as normal
21:30:47 <elliott> Patashu: disadvantage: anyone who actually knows mathematics will ignore everything that follows
21:30:49 <ais523> pikhq_: wow that meme is hard to parse without an adverb in there to make it clearer
21:31:03 <elliott> I don't object to tau on principle, but it's such a stupid thing to "advocate" because it's so fucking minor.
21:31:08 <ais523> especially as the no-adverb version is grammatically a correct sentence that means something else
21:31:15 <Phantom_Hoover> This is essentially my position on the matter.
21:31:22 <elliott> Anyone who makes a point of writing an entire serious work with it is probably too annoying to listen to.
21:31:54 <pikhq_> elliott: I think it's one of many reasons I need a time machine.
21:32:53 <pikhq_> There's also, of course, a large swath of missing Doctor Who episodes, and Hitler needs to go to art school.
21:32:58 <ais523> why not just choose units so that pi = 1?
21:33:13 <elliott> 08:49:30: <CakeProphet> ...how did elliott get fixity declarations.
21:33:14 <elliott> by asking oerjan
21:33:17 <pikhq_> ais523: Non-integral bases are annoying.
21:33:21 <elliott> ais523: Change the units of multiplication? :P
21:33:29 <ais523> elliott: pikhq_'s reply is better
21:33:36 <elliott> pikhq_: WWII not happening would probably be a Bad Thing.
21:33:46 <ais523> a Different Thing, at least
21:33:59 <pikhq_> elliott: Balls, it's true.
21:34:01 <Patashu> elliot, it's a pedagogy thing not a 'this will make math BETTER' thing
21:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You could argue that it would make the probability of a disastrous war in the 20th century.
21:34:07 <Phantom_Hoover> *much higher.
21:34:10 <pikhq_> Let's go for a more radical change.
21:34:25 <elliott> Patashu: Someone who would write a paper with tau is someone who would write a paper with diaereses and Spivak pronouns.
21:34:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Since WWII led to the Cold War, which was actually pretty good as a way of enforcing general peace.
21:34:39 <Patashu> you should never write a paper with tau
21:34:42 <Patashu> only teach classes with tau
21:34:42 <elliott> Yes, all these things are perfectly well and good, but I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THEM, GET TO THE POINT.
21:34:49 <pikhq_> Let's keep Rome going for longer.
21:34:52 <ais523> I know when Asimov wrote a novel about time travel, he introduced the rule "any change to the past that isn't completely and categorically incompatible with the state of the present before the change will have only minor effects on its future past a few hundred years or so"
21:34:55 <elliott> Patashu: Thus creating an even greater barrier between mathematics as taught in school and actual mathematics
21:34:56 <elliott> AWESOME
21:34:58 <oerjan> <ais523> why not just choose units so that pi = 1? <-- -----###
21:35:01 <elliott> THAT'S DEFINITELY WHAT WE NEED
21:35:03 <ais523> i.e. "accidental changes to the past tend to not have knock-on effects"
21:35:11 <ais523> I think it was the only way to keep it vaguely sane
21:35:12 <pikhq_> Just another, oh, few decades would give us the Industrial Revolution instead of the Dark Ages.
21:35:18 <ais523> although it still introduced a sort of meta-time that remained stable
21:35:27 <ais523> and as such, wasn't all that good a time travel novel
21:35:33 <elliott> ais523: I kind of want a machine that can tell me What Would Have Been if one specific thing had been different
21:35:42 <ais523> elliott: ouch
21:35:44 <elliott> ais523: unfortunately, it'd just lead to me regretting 90 percent of my decisions
21:35:51 <ais523> exactly
21:36:02 <ais523> well, I'd think more like 50%, unless there were more than two choices
21:36:02 <elliott> but that doesn't make me stop wanting it, because I don't know what's good for me
21:36:03 <pikhq_> ais523: It also ended with the destruction of that meta-time. So...
21:36:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, use a quantum RNG to make all decisions.
21:36:13 <elliott> ais523: when are there ever exactly two choices?
21:36:28 <ais523> elliott: well, it depends on how you measure choicse
21:36:29 <ais523> *choices
21:36:36 <ais523> I suppose there's always the out-of-field solution
21:36:40 <pikhq_> Imagine. Instead of the Crusades, we'd have a Roman Internet.
21:36:57 <ais523> e.g. randomly punching someone nearby rather than doing or not doing what the choice was apparently about
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21:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that leads to smug alternate elliott sneering at you from his perfect reality.
21:37:12 <ais523> pikhq_: I don't think it ended up destroyed, just shunted into a state where timetravel was impossible
21:37:19 <ais523> so it corresponded exactly to natural time from then on
21:37:20 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, I'm kind of glad the ancient world collapsed.
21:37:31 <pikhq_> ais523: It ended with the creation of the time line we live in.
21:37:37 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Although that leads to smug alternate elliott sneering at you from his perfect reality.
21:37:39 <elliott> `quote IN AN ALTERNATE
21:37:40 <HackEgo> ​17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 23) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 24) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 25) IN AN
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21:38:06 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: How so?
21:38:12 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Just another, oh, few decades would give us the Industrial Revolution instead of the Dark Ages. <-- at the end hadn't rome declined too much to achieve anything like that... you'd want to at least prevent the crisis of the third century
21:38:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, they... kind of sucked.
21:38:23 <pikhq_> oerjan: Okay, well, true.
21:38:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, the Greeks *had* electricity, the beginnings of calculus, steam...
21:39:02 <elliott> WHAT HAVE THE GRECO-ROMANS EVER DONE FOR US
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21:39:05 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: The world sucked up until the 20th century, TBH.
21:39:10 <elliott> pikhq_: no
21:39:11 <elliott> the world sucks
21:39:20 <Phantom_Hoover> They just didn't develop it, because their society wasn't geared towards technological change in the same way the later societies were.
21:39:52 <ais523> besides, the technology they had at the time was sufficient for them
21:39:57 <ais523> so there wasn't much reason to upgrade
21:40:14 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, later societies were *really* poorly geared towards technological change. And arguably still are.
21:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, not to the extent that they just looked at it and said 'meh'.
21:40:51 <pikhq_> No, they looked at it and said "THE DEVIL!"
21:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I was referring to Enlightenment-era Europe, not Dark Ages Europe.
21:41:40 <elliott> the world isn't the bible belt
21:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You realise that the Dark Ages weren't the fall of the Empire to the 1800s, right?
21:42:26 <pikhq_> Yes yes yes...
21:43:06 <pikhq_> That *is* about the time span where we were fucking *behind* on tech, though.
21:44:41 <elliott> silly rabbit, the middle ages never happened
21:45:50 <elliott> 23:34:53: <ehird> 23:21 pikhq: Oh, right. He prefers the insane solution.
21:45:51 <elliott> 23:34:53: <ehird> 23:21 pikhq: (in this case, per-OS Makefiles)
21:45:51 <elliott> 23:34:54: <ehird> nope
21:45:51 <elliott> 23:36:10: <pikhq> ehird: What do you prefer?
21:45:52 <elliott> 23:36:18: <ehird> pikhq: not using c :)
21:45:56 <elliott> 23:36:31: <pikhq> Ah, yes. The ignorant solution.
21:45:58 <elliott> pikhq_ past you hurts my feelings
21:46:00 <elliott> : (
21:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq_> That *is* about the time span where we were fucking *behind* on tech, though.
21:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm.
21:46:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Europe was pulling ahead by the 1700s.
21:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> And when it started pulling ahead, it pulled ahead *fast*.
21:47:14 <pikhq_> Bah, what's a century, anyways? :P
21:47:46 <pikhq_> But, yeah, once it got to the level that the Romans had, it fucking *launched*.
21:49:49 <pikhq_> Hmm. One thing the Romans didn't have that would have really made the Industrial Revolution non-feasible is gunpowder...
21:50:37 <pikhq_> Which encouraged a lot of development in metallurgy.
21:51:28 <oerjan> s/non-//
21:52:00 <pikhq_> Most notably, efficient production of steel.
21:52:50 <pikhq_> (I specify "efficient production", because steel itself is a heck of a lot older than you think)
21:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> How old do you think I think steel is.
21:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Come to think of it, who are you actually saying all these things to.
21:55:33 <pikhq_> Okay, good point, you're not ignorant like the average American. :P
21:55:56 <pikhq_> And honestly, I think I started monologing somewhere in there for no good reason.
21:56:58 <oerjan> must be your latent evil overlord genes
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22:00:15 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
22:00:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:00:41 <elliott> 00:31:40: <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, in a vat of chocolate; only his less slightly paces can go faster.
22:00:44 <elliott> i'm a genius
22:04:21 <pikhq_> Hrm. OpenJDK is now the reference implementation of Java.
22:04:33 <elliott> Your MOM is now the reference implementation of YOUR MOM.
22:04:37 <elliott> [asterisk]FACE
22:05:13 <ais523> elliott: that sentence seems to interpret "slightly" as an adjective, and even taking that into account I still can't parse it
22:05:28 <elliott> 00:31:32: <ehird> David slowed (his pace slightly) as (his ears, in a vat of chocolate); only his less slightly paces can go faster.
22:05:32 <Sgeo> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/10/javascript-parser-combinators.html oooh
22:06:10 <elliott> Theory: Sgeo is Chris Double, pretending to be Sgeo.
22:06:40 <elliott> Evidence: Double likes Creatures. (End evidence.)
22:07:17 <ais523> elliott: oh, right, the first "slightly" is a noun
22:07:18 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:28 <ais523> now the sentence merely makes no sense, rather than being unparseable
22:07:34 <ais523> I suppose that's an improvement
22:07:42 <elliott> ais523: David slowed his ears, which were in a vat of chocolate.
22:07:50 <elliott> David also slowed his [pace slightly] in a similar manner.
22:08:00 <elliott> Only his less slightly paces can handle the faster speeds.
22:08:01 <ais523> ah, so "as" = "as well as" here
22:08:04 <elliott> ais523: that should explain it for you
22:08:10 <ais523> err, I think so
22:08:15 <elliott> Yeah.
22:08:26 <elliott> Actually pace is the noun there.
22:08:29 <elliott> "His pace slightly" = "His slightly pace".
22:08:32 <elliott> i.e. "the grass green"
22:08:43 <elliott> What a pace is, and how it can be slightly, is up for the reader to decide.
22:08:51 <elliott> [asterisk]is for
22:10:14 <elliott> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, for he had the slightest ears in the land.
22:10:32 <ais523> elliott: ah, I parsed it as "his pace 'slightly'", in that it was the pace's name
22:10:39 <elliott> ais523: haha
22:10:46 <elliott> "less slightly paces" makes no sense then, though
22:10:57 <ais523> well, I parsed it as an adjective that time
22:11:08 <ais523> nothing says it has to be parsed consistently, right?
22:11:15 <elliott> "only his less Joe friends could be so nice"
22:11:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:11:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OK I wasn't actually asleep and I need to share this:
22:12:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "If you watch NASA backwards, it's about a space agency that has no spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on moon."
22:12:28 <elliott> X-D
22:12:40 <Phantom_Hoover> OK seriously sleep now.
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22:12:42 <elliott> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, like most sentences in this novel, did gently but surely and definitely yet somehow trail off in a manner that was... But I digress.
22:14:03 <elliott> hmm, adding sleep_until() to a language can make it Turing-complete
22:14:42 <olsner> heh, took a while to understand that NASA joke
22:14:45 <oerjan> There once was a lady of Niger; who smiled as she rode on a tiger. They returned from the ride, with the lady inside, and the smile on the face on the tiger.
22:14:52 <elliott> olsner: Seriously? :P
22:15:08 <elliott> oerjan: is that semicolon right? or is it actually part of the weirdness, hmm
22:15:16 <elliott> oh wait it's not weird
22:15:22 <elliott> i thought the lady was implied to be inside the face of the tiger
22:15:23 <elliott> somehow
22:15:36 <olsner> elliott: yeah, first I thought "but... that's forwards!" and then "oooh! I see!"
22:15:58 <oerjan> elliott: i just tried to digress about a nigress and a tigress, is all
22:16:05 <ais523> what NASA joke?
22:16:11 <olsner> ais523: the NASA one
22:16:29 <ais523> ah, for some reason I skipped it in scrollback
22:16:39 <ais523> and yes, that's a pretty good observation
22:16:55 <ais523> there must be some clever way to tie that into an in-soviet-russia joke, but I'm not seeing it right now
22:17:17 <elliott> let's have some groupthink sentiment that nobody will disagree with: some funds need directing from the us military to nasa :(
22:17:40 <Sgeo> "My voice is my passport. Verify me." did not originate with Uplink?
22:17:42 <Sgeo> Meh
22:18:00 <ais523> all this space research is only useful if it gets us a second habitable planet to live on, given that we're using up the resources of the current one too quickly
22:18:09 <elliott> Sgeo: most parts of uplink are references to bad films, why would you expect that to be different?
22:18:15 <olsner> Sgeo: it's from some... movie or tv series... one that I've seen
22:18:26 <elliott> ais523: Understanding the universe is inherently worthwhile, IMO
22:18:33 <elliott> olsner: Sneakers
22:18:37 <elliott> Says Google
22:18:53 <ais523> elliott: understanding the universe is /possible/?
22:19:05 <elliott> ais523: Are you saying the universe can't be understood at all?
22:19:14 <elliott> That would imply that physics doesn't exist as a subject.
22:19:19 <elliott> Or science of any sort really
22:19:23 <olsner> oh, right, it's that magic crypto chip movie
22:19:28 <Sgeo> Do we really need another planet? Would a space station that had mining operations on other objects in our solar system be good enough?
22:19:41 <ais523> elliott: I don't think it's truly understandable, but I think you can get decent approximations that hold up a reasonable proportion of the time
22:19:46 <elliott> Sgeo: it's probably easier to terraform Mars than do that :P
22:19:53 <elliott> I mean, for a large group of people
22:20:01 <elliott> ais523: You're saying that you don't believe the universe has a consistent set of laws?
22:20:15 <elliott> Seriously?
22:20:28 <ais523> elliott: I think the situation in which the universe doesn't make sense is more likely than the situation in which it does
22:20:39 <elliott> I am not using the words "make sense" on purpose.
22:20:46 <elliott> Please answer my question without rewording it.
22:21:06 <ais523> elliott: I'm not entirely sure your question has a non-misleading answer
22:21:21 <ais523> to the extent that I'm not sure what the correct answer is
22:21:27 <elliott> It's a yes-or-no question
22:21:31 <oerjan> elliott: it is quite conceivable that there are always new, unpredictable exotic particles to be found randomly as you increase to higher energy levels. and that's just an obvious idea from the research that is already being done...
22:21:36 <elliott> Does the universe have a consistent set of laws, or is it completely illogical?
22:21:40 <ais523> elliott: that doesn't mean I necessarily know the answer
22:21:45 <elliott> In your opinion.
22:21:50 <ais523> also, I'm not sure that those are opposites
22:21:59 <elliott> Then you don't know what I mean by "illogical".
22:22:05 <ais523> but completely illogical seems the most likely out of those two possibilities
22:22:10 <ais523> *more likely
22:22:24 <elliott> In your estimation, is there a logically consistent axiomatic system in which there are a group of statements which comprise a complete description of how our universe operates?
22:22:37 <ais523> no
22:22:41 <elliott> Wow.
22:22:48 <ais523> I'd be very surprised if there were
22:23:11 <elliott> Final question: Do you realise that even the physical existence (somehow, say encoded into atoms) of Chaitin's constant would be permissable under my question?
22:23:26 <cheater3> ais523, space research gave you non-stick frying pans!!!!!!!!!!
22:23:28 <ais523> elliott: I don't see how Chaitin's constant has anything to do with it
22:23:39 <ais523> cheater3: I don't think I've ever used one of those
22:23:42 <elliott> ais523: It is not directly related, but I would like an answer.
22:23:45 <ais523> is the same coating used on saucepans? I've used those
22:23:52 <ais523> elliott: "permissable under my question"?
22:24:05 <cheater3> ais523, do you cook?
22:24:09 <ais523> cheater3: rarely
22:24:13 <ais523> when I need food, sometimes
22:24:17 <cheater3> philistine!
22:24:20 <ais523> although I prefer reheating tins
22:24:24 <elliott> ais523: As in: Do you realise that a universe in which there is a physical realisation of the entirety of Chaitin's constant could still be logical under my definition?
22:24:25 <cheater3> jesus
22:24:31 <ais523> or just buying ingredients on the spot and eating them raw
22:24:39 <cheater3> i'm not surprised you're so lackluster sometimes
22:24:45 <ais523> elliott: yes, that doesn't seem to be surprising
22:24:57 <elliott> ais523: And you still affirm your answer to my question about axiomatic systems, yes?
22:24:58 * cheater3 teaches ais523 how to cook in 1203498 simple steps.
22:25:04 <ais523> elliott: yes
22:25:11 <ais523> cheater3: oh, I know how to in theory
22:25:22 <cheater3> there's no such thing as cooking theory
22:25:25 <ais523> it just doesn't seem worth spending that much time when I can achieve a similar result more simply
22:25:40 <elliott> ais523: Then we have COMPLETELY and fundamentally different worldviews, and can never agree on any statement related to the material world, at all.
22:25:42 <cheater3> for very small values of similar
22:26:21 <ais523> elliott: that seems to fit with what's happened in this channel so far
22:26:30 <ais523> we can approximately agree, though, which is good enough
22:26:34 <elliott> No, it isn't
22:26:45 <elliott> You have completely rejected all forms of logic as a valid basis for the universe
22:26:52 <elliott> It is _literally_ impossible for us to agree on anything
22:26:56 <elliott> (that is not purely mathematical)
22:27:04 <ais523> elliott: I don't think that follows
22:27:51 <elliott> oerjan: what do you think? Are there laws of physics?
22:28:23 <oerjan> insufficient data for meaningful answer
22:28:59 <elliott> heh
22:29:38 <elliott> ais523: I feel really strongly that I have miscommunicated with you, because your position, as it appears to me, is one of the few things I am completely decisive and sure about and which everyone I've talked to will agree completely with
22:30:14 <elliott> I'm fairly scared that you think it, actually (note: not the same thing as "I believe it because the alternative scares me")
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22:36:48 <CakeProphet> elliott_: I agree with ais523 on this one.
22:37:05 <CakeProphet> but I don't think it's such a huge difference in perspective to make it /impossible/ to agree on /anything/.
22:37:08 <CakeProphet> as you put it.
22:37:28 <elliott_> CakeProphet: while i merely /expect/ I've miscommunicated with ais523, I am something like ninety percent sure I've miscommunicated with you about it
22:37:51 <cheater3> what's the difference between a LIFO and a FILO?
22:37:59 <elliott_> (this isn't because I think you're an idiot or anything, just that I was phrasing my statements purely for ais523, and I seem to have an easier time communicating with him on questions which resemble the one I made than I do with you)
22:38:16 <elliott_> but I note that it _does_ make it impossible to agree on anything _about the universe_
22:38:16 <ais523> cheater3: a FILO is a sort of pastry
22:38:22 <elliott_> just like it's impossible to argue with someone who rejects logic
22:38:40 * Sgeo just noticed the awesomeness of the [S] Make Her Pay preloader
22:38:42 <elliott_> it is impossible to argue about a logical statement about the universe if you think the universe is not logical
22:38:44 <oerjan> cheater3: never heard the word FILO used
22:38:47 <ais523> elliott_: how do you know that the sort of logic you subscribe to is the one the universe actually follows?
22:39:01 <elliott_> ais523: I'm too busy reeling from the shock to discuss this further right now, sorry
22:39:02 <ais523> there's more than one, you know
22:39:35 <oerjan> LIFO and FIFO is the usual distinction
22:40:11 <CakeProphet> FILO and LILO :)
22:41:52 <Patashu> LILO == FIFO and LIFO == FILO
22:42:16 <oerjan> it is possible to think that the known laws of physics are incomplete while also thinking that they are almost never broken to any detectable degree.
22:42:53 <oerjan> which is pretty much the case with current version of Standard Model + General Relativity
22:44:08 <Patashu> you only don't see them broken so much because the scales they break on are almost incomprehensible
22:44:40 <oerjan> incomprehensible ~ hard to probe and detect, there
22:44:52 <Patashu> yeah sure
22:44:55 * Patashu finds physics hard ok
22:45:13 <elliott_> oerjan: Yes, but that just means we have not _found_ the laws yet
22:45:40 <elliott_> oerjan: That's how relativity and quantum physics arose, after all
22:45:41 <oerjan> elliott_: there does not have to be an _actual_ set of laws for a good approximation to exist
22:45:51 <elliott_> oerjan: Of course not, who said that?
22:46:04 -!- Gregor has set topic: Man with dead polecat-like creature accused of #esoteric assault | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:46:07 <Patashu> how can there -not- be laws?
22:46:46 <olsner> one must have laws or there will be no order!
22:47:14 <CakeProphet> I could segway into anarchy now...
22:47:34 <CakeProphet> but that's a bad idea, as I will die.
22:49:56 <elliott_> [asterisk]segue
22:49:59 <elliott_> Although segway is amusing too
22:50:00 <pikhq_> elliott_: Ultimately, it is unknowable whether or not the universe is logical.
22:50:09 <pikhq_> elliott_: Or, indeed, if it exists.
22:50:11 <pikhq_> Soo...
22:50:14 <elliott_> it exists
22:50:17 <elliott_> that's a tautology
22:50:26 <oerjan> elliott_: i was reminded of that guy i read about segwaying off a cliff
22:50:29 <pikhq_> Well, rather, "the universe as we observe it".
22:50:31 <CakeProphet> I believe that any set of non-trivial axiomatic laws for the universe will be inconsistent or unable to prove its own completeness. Thus, while we can certainly make pretty good approximations of how the universe works, I don't think we can ever be certain that we have discovered everything that can be known about it. This doesn't disprove that a complete system might exist, but it makes unlikely that we'll ever know wha
22:50:38 <elliott_> but anyway, unknowable doesn't mean you can't have a belief about it, this is a fundamental opinion equivalent to saying "physics /does not work/ in the longest term"
22:50:44 <elliott_> oerjan: you mean the guy who bought the company? :)
22:50:51 <pikhq_> Clearly, it exists at *least* in the sense that there is some place that my mind exists.
22:51:04 <oerjan> elliott_: i vaguely recall something like that
22:51:47 <pikhq_> True, true. I am pretty sure that the universe as observed exists and follows logical laws.
22:51:49 <elliott_> oerjan: it was
22:51:58 <pikhq_> At least, in so far as I have observed it, it does.
23:02:36 <CakeProphet> Yow! Legally imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!
23:03:44 <elliott_> `addquote <Gregor> You have no idea how desperately I want to avoid being a GC guy :P <Gregor> Every year I go to ISMM and Doug Lea gives me a bizarrely-cheery "Hello!" and I'm like "awww shit I'm in memory management"
23:03:45 <HackEgo> ​447) <Gregor> You have no idea how desperately I want to avoid being a GC guy :P <Gregor> Every year I go to ISMM and Doug Lea gives me a bizarrely-cheery "Hello!" and I'm like "awww shit I'm in memory management"
23:04:39 <oerjan> pikhq_: it's just tricking you into thinking so *MWAHAHAHA*
23:04:51 <pikhq_> oerjan: That is entirelty unknowable.
23:04:53 <pikhq_> Entirely, too.
23:05:20 <oerjan> sure, *for now*
23:06:29 <CakeProphet> In other news, I actually have magic powers.
23:06:34 <elliott_> ditto sup
23:06:45 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Did you continue reading Homestuck, btw? :p
23:07:02 <pikhq_> Demonstrate it or STFU, n00b. :P
23:07:14 <elliott_> pikhq_: die to death
23:07:33 <oerjan> hm this reminds me of this idea i had, that maybe i don't actually exist more than a moment and every new moment i will be someone entirely different with different memories which might make it _seem_ like i am existing in a continuity
23:07:37 <pikhq_> How else would one die?
23:07:55 <oerjan> only to disappear again the next one
23:07:59 <elliott_> pikhq_: die t... to life
23:08:08 <elliott_> oerjan: see: Boltzmann brain
23:08:28 <elliott_> Yudkowsky or someone actually came up with a fairly decent argument that we're not Boltzmann brains, IIRC
23:08:32 <elliott_> I forget what it was, though
23:09:07 <elliott_> (which is quite important, otherwise you have to consider that you never existed before now and won't exist after now a pretty plausible hypothesis)
23:09:35 <CakeProphet> oerjan: I have some friends who have had similar thoughts. Granted they were on acid, so it was probably more like a delusion than a thought.
23:10:23 <elliott_> "A friend had this thought on acid" -- words which never precede anything of interest
23:10:31 <CakeProphet> One friend found "God" this way, apparently.
23:11:00 <CakeProphet> Being in a state of hallucination is probably the best way to perceive a god, I guess.
23:11:20 <CakeProphet> I tried to tell him what was wrong with that entire idea, but he doesn't see it.
23:11:46 <elliott_> it might be worth considering that he's an idiot
23:12:09 <CakeProphet> yes, he is.
23:12:18 <CakeProphet> and a programmer too. Imagine that.
23:12:33 <pikhq_> Anything observed whilst on a hallucinogen is *most probably* not going to have much bearing on reality.
23:12:41 <elliott_> oh well then he's definitely an idiot
23:12:43 <elliott_> ;;;;;;;;;;;DDDDDDdddddddd
23:12:57 <pikhq_> Though it may be a good source of art.
23:12:58 <CakeProphet> pikhq_: this has been my long-standing hypothesis as well. It seems to be pretty true.
23:12:58 <oerjan> elliott_: boltzmann brains is not quite what i was thinking of, i wasn't saying the change from one identity to another is _random_. also boltzmann brains seem to have at least limited continuity.
23:13:13 <elliott_> oerjan: I was just saying they are similar concepts
23:13:39 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: At least insofar as we can observe, hallucinogens create incorrect observations. So, yeah.
23:13:45 <CakeProphet> oerjan: what does this theory say about cabbage brains?
23:13:50 <elliott_> pikhq_: so does thinking
23:14:38 <pikhq_> elliott_: Sorry, *even more* incorrect observations than we already have.
23:14:48 <oerjan> what's a cabbage brain
23:14:56 <CakeProphet> elliott_: oooh, you just raise the SICK BURN meter.
23:15:06 <elliott_> oerjan: what a cabbage uses to think
23:15:09 <CakeProphet> oerjan: a brain that seeks to legally impose culture reduction.
23:15:18 <elliott_> CakeProphet: i was being serious
23:15:19 <oerjan> what's culture reduction
23:15:24 <elliott_> oerjan: what a culture uses to reduce
23:15:33 <CakeProphet> elliott_: right, but your statemenet doesn't really contradict anything he said.
23:15:34 <hagb4rd> i like the ideas of henry bergson.. it implies that the brains functions have more the character of reduction
23:15:37 <hagb4rd> like a filter
23:15:44 <elliott_> CakeProphet: I was pointing out that what he was saying didn't really mean anything
23:15:59 <hagb4rd> which at last allows you identify with yourself
23:16:13 <hagb4rd> and keep thing quite smooth
23:16:17 <CakeProphet> oerjan: uh... good question actually.
23:16:27 <CakeProphet> oerjan: I don't know, but emacs has all the answers for you.
23:16:41 <oerjan> oh. i will never know either, then.
23:17:00 <CakeProphet> oerjan: you will if you M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead
23:17:21 <oerjan> hmm, zippy
23:17:38 <CakeProphet> or m-x yow
23:17:59 * oerjan recalls reading zippy the pinhead in the newspaper when he was visiting seattle
23:19:12 <oerjan> ?yow
23:19:12 <lambdabot> Couldn't find fortune file
23:19:16 <oerjan> huh
23:19:31 <CakeProphet> `run fortune
23:19:32 <HackEgo> No output.
23:19:34 <CakeProphet> aww.
23:19:38 <oerjan> THEY'VE LOBOTOMIZED LAMBDABOT
23:19:46 <oerjan> !sh fortune
23:19:47 <EgoBot> ​/tmp/input.9942: line 1: fortune: command not found
23:19:50 <CakeProphet> yow!
23:19:56 <elliott_> oerjan: when was that, seventeen hundreds?
23:20:04 <elliott_> Gregor: plz to be install fortune
23:20:08 <oerjan> 1996
23:20:26 <CakeProphet> wow that's like the dark ages, man
23:20:28 <elliott_> oerjan: suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure
23:20:33 <elliott_> they didn't have aeroplanes then dude.
23:20:40 <elliott_> i was only a year old.
23:20:43 <elliott_> can't fool me
23:20:49 <elliott_> or wai t
23:20:49 * CakeProphet was 5.
23:20:50 <oerjan> elliott_: i was hoping for <elliott_> close enough
23:20:52 <elliott_> did you go on a ship
23:20:55 <elliott_> like with a sail and everything
23:20:58 <elliott_> oerjan: heh :D
23:21:18 <elliott_> oerjan: btw if you want a certain response just /msg me it, i'm all for manufacturing good irc
23:21:38 <oerjan> HOW COULD YOU DO SUCH A THING
23:22:25 <elliott_> irc corp: manufacturing good irc for you and babies
23:22:45 <oerjan> how much for the babies
23:23:06 <oerjan> and is ketchup included
23:24:10 <elliott_> no
23:24:15 <elliott_> Gregor: http://codu.org/davidslowed/
23:24:16 <elliott_> remember this
23:24:17 <olsner> how are they prepared?
23:24:25 <olsner> boiled, grilled, smoked?
23:24:28 <CakeProphet> `quote
23:24:29 <HackEgo> ​125) <fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist
23:24:40 <olsner> pickled?
23:24:55 <CakeProphet> olsner: that only works in Python.
23:25:15 <CakeProphet> and I've never heard of any of those other serialization methods.
23:25:17 <olsner> "Python: It pickles babies"
23:25:44 <elliott_> `quote
23:25:45 <HackEgo> ​186) <oklofok> colon is where your ass comes from right
23:26:26 * elliott_ thinks myndzi is an elliottf
23:26:26 * myndzi thinks elliott_ is an elliottf
23:26:28 <elliott_> aww
23:26:48 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to fgh1.
23:26:57 * fgh1 * myndzi * fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f
23:26:58 * myndzi thinks elliott_ * fgh1 * fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f
23:27:00 -!- fgh1 has changed nick to elliott.
23:27:02 <elliott> darn, it was fixed :)
23:27:06 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, I remember that :P
23:27:12 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
23:27:12 -!- elliott has joined.
23:27:45 <oerjan> !underload ((<fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist)!a(:^)*S):^
23:27:46 <EgoBot> ​((<fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist)!a(:^)*S):^
23:29:00 <CakeProphet> wicked point in quine-space, brocephus.
23:29:46 <olsner> if the universe is a quine, what are the cosmological implications? discuss!
23:29:56 <elliott> olsner: whoaaaaaaaaaaa maaaaaaaan
23:30:02 <elliott> im so HIGH on these DRUGS you are TELLING ME.......
23:30:08 <Gregor> What was that collection if hugely-optimized intrinsics like memset for various archs?
23:30:18 <elliott> Gregor: Superoptimised stuff?
23:30:24 <elliott> I think there's a paper with a metric fuckton of them
23:30:35 <elliott> Superoptimisation: provably optimal code generation using answer ...
23:30:35 <elliott> by T Crick - 2009 - Related articles
23:30:35 <elliott> Superoptimisation: provably optimal code generation using answer set ...
23:30:35 <elliott> opus.bath.ac.uk/20352/ - Cached
23:30:36 <elliott> Stuff like that
23:30:42 <elliott> I forget the exact term
23:31:01 <Gregor> All I want is the fastest one-instruction x86_64 memset given that I always have a number of word-size things to zero.
23:31:14 <elliott> One-instruction?
23:31:20 <Gregor> I don't know why I wrote that :P
23:31:22 <elliott> The one-instruction memsets are ... slow :P
23:31:23 <Gregor> Fastest is what's important :P
23:31:35 <olsner> obviously that'd be "call memset"
23:31:53 <elliott> Gregor: If you want one-instruction, "rep movsdw" or whatever the ATandT mnemonic is would do.
23:31:59 <elliott> ISTR that kind of stuff is pretty slow nowadays, though.
23:32:28 <Gregor> olsner: while (ptrs--) *ptr++ = NULL; is currently behaving reliably faster than memset.
23:32:39 <elliott> glibc memset?
23:32:41 <elliott> lulz
23:32:48 <elliott> " BTW the AMD manual for K7 (or might be K6 optimisation manual? don't
23:32:48 <elliott> exactly remember) goes into great detail about both memcpy() and
23:32:48 <elliott> memset(). Turns out there's about five different cases.
23:32:50 <elliott> In the meantime Deewiant has told me that on 64 bit glibc memset is better and
23:32:52 <elliott> on more modern CPUs the timings are different (and on 64 bit my first version
23:32:54 <elliott> may not work, maybe the second one is better. I have not tested it on 64 bit
23:32:56 <elliott> LDC yet). I'm just a newbie on this stuff, while people that write the memset
23:32:58 <elliott> of 64bit glibc are expert."
23:33:00 <elliott> Somehow my Googlequest led me to the D lists.
23:33:01 <CakeProphet> dude, why don't regular expression grammars work like mine and ais523's
23:33:02 <elliott> Deewiant -- EVERYWHERE.
23:33:53 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:33:58 <oerjan> CakeProphet: wat
23:34:17 <CakeProphet> if one substitition operation is a -> b, then a greedy substition is just (a -> b)*
23:34:23 <CakeProphet> it makes so much sense.
23:34:37 <elliott> that's not a grammar
23:34:51 <elliott> and you mean a global substitution
23:35:05 <CakeProphet> ... -_-
23:35:32 <elliott> what?
23:35:57 <CakeProphet> I occasionally like to talk in very loose terms. I have come to realize that is not allowed here.
23:36:16 <elliott> well, not when you're complaining :)
23:37:24 <ais523> (a=b)* isn't a global substitution in Cyclexa, but an iterated substitution
23:37:41 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, try the REP MOV thing; http://faydoc.tripod.com/cpu/rep.htm
23:37:42 <ais523> which might or might not come to the same thing if it isn't anchored, depending on whether the search string can match the replacement
23:37:44 <ais523> I think, at least
23:37:51 <elliott> Gregor: Oh wait
23:37:52 <elliott> Gregor: memset?
23:37:56 <elliott> Gregor: Try REP STOS
23:38:00 <elliott> It might be slower, but it might not be
23:38:04 <elliott> And it's certainly tiny
23:38:11 <CakeProphet> ais523: you mean it only applies to the beginning of the string?
23:38:22 <elliott> mov ecx, LOLCOUNT
23:38:24 <CakeProphet> or? it only applies from that point onward.
23:38:25 <elliott> mov eax, LOLVALUE
23:38:28 <elliott> mov edi, LOLPOINTER
23:38:37 <elliott> rep stos [I think some qualified]
23:38:43 <elliott> That's Intel
23:38:46 <elliott> ATandT yer on your own
23:38:50 <ais523> CakeProphet: depends on if it's anchored or not
23:38:53 <olsner> mov elliott, LOLINTERNET
23:38:55 <elliott> Sixtyfour bit presumably has an obvious analogue
23:39:12 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:40:00 <elliott> Gregor SURE IS THANKFUL FOR ALL MY HARD WORK
23:40:05 <olsner> it does, there's a stosq that stores rax into rdi instead of eax into edi
23:41:20 <elliott> Right.
23:41:37 <olsner> *eax into rdi
23:43:13 <elliott> 17:19:07: <pikhq> So... Debian Fail.
23:43:13 <elliott> 17:19:11: <pikhq> <3 Gentoo.
23:43:21 <elliott> i shouldn't just quote silly things past pikhq_ says
23:43:25 <elliott> who else wants bad quotes of their past self
23:43:27 <elliott> NOT ME
23:43:53 <elliott> Gregor: "The MASM Forum has a lot of incredible assembly language programmers/hobbyists who have beaten this issue completely to death (have a look through The Laboratory). The results were much like Christopher's response: SSE is incredible for large, aligned, buffers, but going down you will eventually reach such a small size that a basic for loop is just as quick."
23:43:56 <elliott> Tried SSE? :P
23:43:59 <olsner> hmm, though I wonder if you can override the address size to 32-bit in long mode, never really reflected over that
23:44:40 <Gregor> elliott: A GC pool is most assuredly a large, aligned buffer.
23:44:40 <Sgeo> Is it immoral to write a non-optimizing compiler for a non-esoteric language?
23:44:43 <ais523> no
23:44:58 <ais523> there are even valid uses for such a compiler, apart from practicing compiler writing
23:45:00 <elliott> Gregor: Oh god... but if you do SSE, you'll be like fucking Vorpal, who used inline assembly just to use SSE to zero out static fungespace.
23:45:05 <ais523> people may be annoyed if they're forced to use it
23:45:24 <elliott> Gregor: Except that you're writing an advanced GC, not a Funge interpreter, so it's okay :P
23:45:32 <elliott> Gregor: You'll restrict yourself to PROCESSORS WITH SSE, though.
23:45:37 <elliott> CAN YOU BRING YOURSELF TO DO THAT
23:45:43 <elliott> YOU'LL BREAK DOS COMPATIBILITY FOR PENTIUM IIS
23:45:47 <elliott> MAKE IT AN OPTION
23:45:59 <Sgeo> I should at least do arithmatic ahead of time when possible
23:46:11 <Sgeo> Better yet: When easy to do
23:46:23 <elliott> Sgeo: look into constant folding, instruction simplification
23:47:17 <Gregor> elliott: It's probably not worthwhile, I'm just having some thoughts because right now I have to clear out things when I allocate, which is all wrong >_>
23:47:36 <elliott> Gregor: You realise SSE is not very hard :P
23:47:43 <elliott> Gregor: Is this part of giving memory back to the OS?
23:48:26 <Sgeo> Wow, "instruction simplification" is hard to find on Wikipedia and google
23:48:54 <elliott> i think Deewiant told me that :)
23:48:59 <elliott> basically x+0 -> x isn't technically constant folding
23:49:11 <Gregor> elliott: Nothing to do with giving memory back, no.
23:49:16 <Gregor> That's not actually a good idea ;P
23:49:27 <elliott> Gregor: But you said you were gonna do it :P
23:49:34 <Gregor> I lie *shrugs*
23:49:47 <elliott> Gregor: I don't see why it's a bad idea though
23:49:56 <Gregor> I forgot that my pool allocator has a Windows backend too, and I'm too lazy to figure out how to do it on Windows.
23:50:50 <elliott> Heard of free()?
23:50:55 <elliott> I joke :P
23:51:00 <elliott> How do you allocate (from the OS) on Windows?
23:51:14 <Gregor> Idonno, VirtualWTFMemoryLolsy
23:51:20 <Gregor> I just decided not to look into it right now.
23:51:29 <elliott> I'LL CHECK
23:51:42 <olsner> maybe you could just malloc, that might go to the other thing for large allocations?
23:51:55 <elliott> olsner: >_<
23:52:02 <elliott> There, did Gregor's job for him.
23:52:20 <elliott> 87 #if defined(USE_ALLOCATOR_MMAP)
23:52:20 <elliott> 88 munmap(ret, (char *) base - (char *) ret);
23:52:20 <elliott> 89 munmap((void *) ((char *) base + sz), sz - ((char *) base - (char *) ret));
23:52:20 <elliott> 90 #elif defined(USE_ALLOCATOR_WIN32)
23:52:20 <elliott> 91 VirtualFree(ret, (char *) base - (char *) ret, MEM_RELEASE);
23:52:21 <elliott> 92 VirtualFree((void *) ((char *) base + sz), sz - ((char *) base - (char *) ret), MEM_RELEASE);
23:52:24 <elliott> 93 #endif
23:52:27 <elliott> Gregor: You do that if it's not aligned.
23:52:32 <elliott> Gregor: You already _have_ freeing code :P
23:52:34 <olsner> but I suspect windows' malloc sucks, mallocs always suck
23:52:41 <elliott> THANK YOU COME AGAIN.
23:52:59 <elliott> Also I note that that block of code just becomes nonsensical if USE_ALLOCATOR_MALLOC is on.
23:53:06 <elliott> Because you don't handle that case at all, but still have the conditional.
23:53:44 <Gregor> elliott: Ohlol :P
23:53:52 <Gregor> *eh*, still not doing it now.
23:53:52 <olsner> crap, up too late today as well
23:53:53 <elliott> Gregor: THANK YOU COME AGAIN
23:53:57 <elliott> Oh wait I already said that.
23:53:58 <elliott> DARN
23:54:51 <olsner> and I just became so tried that I was about to reply to elliott in swedish
23:54:57 <elliott> olsner: please do so
23:55:19 <olsner> yes box, alright
23:55:25 <elliott> what
23:55:48 <olsner> box is swedish english for boss
23:55:55 <elliott> lol swedes
23:56:04 <elliott> olsner: [asterisk]swenglish
23:56:10 <olsner> in this particular phrase anyway, it's not used anywhere else
23:57:50 <olsner> meh, boring, cya next week
23:58:13 <elliott> see you trombone house
23:58:19 <elliott> : the future: the past
23:58:44 <CakeProphet> !sffedeesh Thank you come again
23:58:44 <EgoBot> ​Thoooonk yoooouuuu coooome-a-a-a-a igeeee-a-a
23:58:52 <elliott> igeeee-a-a
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