00:00:49 <oklopol> "<oerjan> i am merely investigating regarding the possibility of translating norwegian tongue-twisters" <<< if that twists your tongue, you norwegians must have really sucky mouths.
00:01:17 <oerjan> oklopol: wait what, i have never watched family guy
00:01:28 <oklopol> a jap once called me a "genius" when i managed to pronounce "it is warm" in japanese, that is, "atatakakatta"
00:02:11 <pikhq> oklopol: That's "It was warm".
00:02:19 <oerjan> i guess that _would_ be easier for finns than most other europeans
00:03:30 <oerjan> oklopol: you are of course supposed to say "Fru Ibsens ripsbusker og andre buskvekster" as fast as possible, repeatedly
00:03:35 <pikhq> "It is warm" is 'just' "atatakai".
00:04:15 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> This is presumably the layman's definition of graph, not an actual graph graph." <<< they layman definition of the graph of f of course being that it is the set f
00:06:58 <oklopol> "<Taneb> So, it's equivalent to Lambda Calculus?" <<< yep but the usual conversion algo from lc to ski has an exponential blowup
00:08:50 <oklopol> "<elliott> but the worst :(" <<< no best
00:09:58 <oklopol> "<oerjan> oklopol: wait what, i have never watched family guy" <<< they just randomly sang that song once.
00:10:54 <oklopol> '<pikhq> oklopol: That's "It was warm"' <<< i'm aware, whoops; i think the error originated from me being afraid of managing to screw up the trivial translation given that you would point it out in a second
00:11:52 <oklopol> pikhq: does "taka ka kata ga atatakakatta ka" mean what i think it does?
00:12:34 <oklopol> was either the hawk or the shoulder warm?
00:13:25 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:15:09 <oklopol> "<oerjan> oklopol: you are of course ..." <<< given that you can only screw up "buskvekster" (prolly since it doesn't mean anything), all you have to do is pay some attention at the end of every repetition
00:15:22 <pikhq> oklopol: Pretty much.
00:16:16 <oklopol> i'm slightly annoyed by the "ga" there but don't really see a way around it
00:16:55 <pikhq> "taka ka kata kà atatakaka'ta ka" Bam, fixed. :P
00:17:04 <oerjan> oklopol: um what about ripsbusker
00:18:22 <oklopol> i can just repeat that ad infinitum
00:18:42 <oklopol> maybe i don't know how it's pronounced
00:19:42 <oklopol> well okay, i can repeat it about 10 times
00:19:58 <oerjan> the only silent consonant in that phrase is the "g" in "og"
00:20:24 <oerjan> norwegian does not, in general, have silent vowels
00:26:03 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/ibsen.wma ?
00:27:52 <oklopol> that was my second attempt tho, didn't choose the number of repetitions the first time so i screwed up a bit at the end
00:28:01 <oklopol> maybe i screwed up there too but didn't notice at least
00:28:33 <oerjan> i'm not going to listen to that now, i'd wake up people
00:28:38 <oklopol> i don't know what busk and vekster mean so it hard to get the k and s right
00:28:50 <oklopol> alright, it's not very interesting
00:29:40 <oklopol> well obviously i know that
00:29:58 <oerjan> vekster = plants, growth
00:30:11 <oklopol> and yeah, i know i said i didn't
00:30:16 <oklopol> didn't really know vekster tho
00:30:28 <oklopol> although kind of obvious as well
00:32:44 <oklopol> my favorite finnish one is "mun mummuni muni mun mammani, mun mammani muni mun"
00:35:10 * oerjan learns that the Hollywood sign originally said Hollywoodland
00:35:27 <oklopol> i just watched a hustle episode where they said that
00:36:03 <oklopol> so actually it's "mum mummuni muni mum mammani mum mammani muni mum" when pronounced by usual finnish fast pronunciation rules, lemme record that for funsies as well
00:38:02 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/mummuni.wma
00:40:21 <oklopol> ran out of air pretty fast and did the first one slow so got just 5 before running out of air
00:40:30 <oklopol> what's wrong with my sentencing this week
00:44:34 <oklopol> oerjan: actually the whole ep was about the sign, since they sold it
00:52:53 * oerjan learned it from wikipedia's front page, btw
00:53:06 <oklopol> the episode is very very old
00:53:22 <oklopol> so there can really be no connection
00:54:07 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:54:34 <oklopol> oerjan: hey why did the topological space have a hole?
00:55:56 <oklopol> because its parents were danish pilots!
00:57:00 <oerjan> this is worse than reddit's forced waffles/carrots meme
00:57:52 <oerjan> that was _not_ an attempt to explain.
00:58:20 <oerjan> more of an attempt to urge you to run, before it's too late
00:58:36 <oklopol> i think the danish pilot meme is still better than my famous bisexual meme since i never really even got the famous bisexual thing myself.
00:59:44 <oerjan> yes, they contain "me" twice
01:02:21 <oerjan> hm apparently the english insist on spelling that meaning as "egotistic", for some reason.
01:02:50 <oklopol> i always found that compuddling
01:14:31 <oerjan> ah found it: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2295#comic
01:17:06 <oerjan> sounds like something finnish would have a case for
01:17:42 <oklopol> they anti-yessed my applicatrix
01:21:19 <oklopol> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=428#comic these are really good i should binge
01:23:16 <oklopol> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=2088#comic xkcd kind of did the reverse of this
01:26:52 <oklopol> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=1913#comic :DSDSDAFADSFASDFDSA
01:30:41 -!- myndzi has joined.
01:42:52 <oklopol> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=493#comic
01:42:56 <oklopol> maybe i'm just tired :DSDFADFADFS
01:43:13 <oklopol> i've actually seen most of these way many times
01:52:33 <cheater__> oklopol, you know about goatkcd don't you
01:53:44 <oklopol> is it xkcd but goatse in every square
01:53:46 <zzo38> I tried sending many files to CTAN, including chess typing program (including fonts), grid overlay program, PBM overlay program, Dungeons & Dragons recording program, but nothing is sent!!
01:54:18 <zzo38> CTAN = Comprehensive TeX Archive Network
01:55:22 <zzo38> Do you want these programs?
01:56:36 <zzo38> Maybe it is not useful to you if these are not the kind of things you are trying to type (or if you don't use Plain TeX).
01:57:23 <oklopol> and also no, i don't type chess
01:58:58 <zzo38> The Dungeons&Dragons recording program, I use it every time I am playing Dungeons&Dragons game. I find it useful for this.
02:00:16 <oklopol> i've played a few games as a kid
02:00:45 <zzo38> This file contains all story events and character sheet data (and the entire history of the character sheet data for that game, with the exception that I couldn't put the one at start due to lack of data) for one game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/shaman.tex
02:00:49 <zzo38> oklopol: What version?
02:01:56 <oklopol> doesn't matter that much the way my friends play it
02:08:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
02:09:10 <cheater__> and interestingly enough the comic book is ALWAYS better than the original
02:22:03 <tswett_> Perkelin vittu, I can't access Wiktionary.
02:22:50 <oklopol> if you mean the genitive of perkele
02:23:13 <tswett_> Who is this Perkele guy, again?
02:23:30 <tswett_> I'm guessing whoever he is, he doesn't actually have a vittu.
02:24:18 <oklopol> perkele is originally the finnish god of thunder afaik, nowadays mostly means satan
02:26:21 <oklopol> well i mean really it's just a curse word nowadays, but typecast into a guy, i would say he's the christian satan
02:26:49 <tswett_> I should perhaps figure out how to say some useful stuff.
02:27:33 <tswett_> Suomen kuva lasti köri. I think that stopped being Finnish pretty quickly on.
02:28:22 <oklopol> except kri kri is something a silly car might say
02:28:53 <oklopol> lasti means like a truckload
02:31:15 <oklopol> and i don't really understand "Lammasta heimo syödä."
02:31:39 <tswett_> Well, I don't know what "lammasta" means, so I figured I would just say it in the hopes that I would find out somehow.
02:31:43 <oklopol> "syd lammasta heimo" is an okay verb ofc
02:31:54 <oklopol> meaning "to eat a sheep a tribe"
02:32:18 <oklopol> lammasta = partitive of sheep
02:32:20 <tswett_> And what's the third-person singular present of "syödä"?
02:32:29 <tswett_> And what's the accusative of that?
02:32:31 <oklopol> but here it's just like the accusative case
02:32:46 <oklopol> third-person singular present = sy
02:37:06 <oklopol> also while you say syd lammasta heimo in context like "silloin tllin on mukavaa syd lammasta heimo jos toinenkin" (occasionally it's nice to eat a sheep a tribe or two), you have to say either "min syn lammasta heimon" or "min syn lammasta heimoa"
02:37:31 <oklopol> in min syn lammasta heimo, i can only see the parsing that makes heimo vocative
02:39:49 * oklopol checks that heimo is actually a finnish word
03:02:36 <pikhq> Jeeze. Google+ is at 10 million users.
03:03:47 <oklopol> is google+ as good as google?
03:04:53 <pikhq> It's a Facebook competitor that's reasonably integrated with Google's other services. And reasonably well-implemented.
03:05:28 <oklopol> i doubt i'll ever touch that one either
04:38:56 -!- asiekierkaDS has joined.
04:39:09 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:39:18 -!- kwertii has joined.
04:52:48 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
04:52:50 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
04:53:33 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
04:59:28 -!- asiekierkaDS has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
05:30:06 <zzo38> I wrote this http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex Is it good name of a character? (The text after \Character is their name)
05:41:23 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:41:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:09:06 <quintopia> zzo38: export to pdf plox. this device has no tex on it
06:09:48 <zzo38> I uninstalled that program already
06:10:11 <coppro> zzo38: I do not believe that to be a good character name as I cannot pronounce it unless it is Welsh
06:10:29 <coppro> and even then I'm not convinced it's pronouncable
06:10:29 <zzo38> Can't you read the source file? In fact, the source file contains some comments that would not be printed out anyways (on a PDF or otherwise)
06:10:47 <zzo38> How would you pronounce it if it is Welsh?
06:11:58 <zzo38> Failed to download? I can export a DVI file although like I said, it contains comments and parts that are incomplete and will fail to print correctly.
06:12:31 <coppro> zzo38: I don't know; I do not know Welsh.
06:12:42 <coppro> However, Welsh has 'w' as a vowel which may make it pronounceable
06:13:19 <coppro> You have a sequence of 6 consonants there
06:13:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:14:20 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:15:18 <zzo38> I made up the name at random on my calculator and added a space by myself. I could add some vowels if needed in fact I needed to add one vowel the first time I used this method (although I used dice at that time, not calculator; but it is the same method)
06:15:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:16:01 <zzo38> As you can see there are two character sheets in this file although the second one is incomplete (they do not even have a name yet)
06:17:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:17:38 <zzo38> The second one is my brother character he didn't decide the class yet
06:24:20 <coppro> zzo38: I would probably remove the q and the second v
06:24:30 <coppro> then I think it would be pronounceable
06:24:48 <quintopia> are you planning on actually pronouncing it?
06:25:05 <quintopia> can you just copy the name here so i can see it?
06:25:29 <Deewiant> quintopia: "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"
06:26:25 <quintopia> Iucklwiv is somewhat pronounceable
06:26:54 <quintopia> i'd change Kjugobe to Djugobe, since Kj is tricky
06:27:11 <zzo38> OK, I will think about these things.
06:27:29 <coppro> you can fake Kj good enough as Ky
06:27:59 <quintopia> since the initial I must also be pronounced as y
06:28:22 <coppro> a) no it doesn't b) this is English. we don't care
06:28:55 <quintopia> looks like no english name i've ever seen
06:29:58 <zzo38> Actually it is just English letters, it isn't actually any language at all.
06:31:22 <coppro> and in English, we can pull any random pronounciation we feel like
06:31:28 <coppro> "si" looks like "zh" to me
06:31:32 <quintopia> so why not pretend it is a real fake language?
06:31:43 <coppro> quintopia: No reason a character's name would necessarily be unilingual
06:32:25 <zzo38> Yes even in English the words is not necessarily pronouced like you have written.
06:32:46 <zzo38> And yes this is for roleplaying
06:33:27 <coppro> quintopia: It may make sense within the context of a character's backstory for their name to be unilingual
06:33:30 <coppro> but there is no inherent reason
06:33:59 <zzo38> Part of a situation DM has already told us, we escaped from a sinking ship containing many slaves and many creatures and so on, and cannot carry any equipment (or money) except for wearing rags
06:34:03 <quintopia> i dont know about this characters backstory
06:34:24 <quintopia> zzo38: tell me about your character
06:35:01 <zzo38> I didn't write a backstory (at least not yet)
06:37:21 <zzo38> I do have a random "Character Lifepath" script
06:37:55 <zzo38> In many cases some (or all) of the results of that script cannot be used, though
06:38:47 <quintopia> have it pick a trope from tvtropes :P
06:39:23 <zzo38> No, that isn't the reason why some results cannot be used. There are just results that do not apply to some characters or campaigns.
06:40:50 <zzo38> Yes that is a possibility make a script pick a trope from tvtropes although how would that work? If they have a random page function, just use that. If not, make a list with parameters and stuff so that you can make combinations of things with specific values entered in some cases.
06:41:02 <coppro> They have a number of indexes
06:41:09 <coppro> you could select, for instance, two Character Tropes at random
06:41:16 <coppro> you'd have to parse the index manually though
06:41:20 <quintopia> they have a story generator script that picks tropes for the characters
06:42:52 <zzo38> (I do know some of the pages there specify possible parameters that can also apply)
06:46:13 <zzo38> OK I did run my script and here are the output (omitting the things that do not seem to apply to my character) (Note that it doesn't necessarily mean I will use this; it just means I am now copying its output!)
06:46:25 <zzo38> Place of birth: Fortress; Childhood environment: Strict; Caretaker's origin: Close family; Caretaker's background: Free laborers; Caretaker's status: Alive and well; You are an only child;
06:46:41 <zzo38> Luck: Fame; Luck: Travel; Tragedy: Imprisoned; Made an enemy: Creature with animal intelligence (Military, Foiled, Annoyed, Mutual);
06:48:01 <zzo38> I did write the script however most of the information contained in the script is from other sources.
06:48:35 <zzo38> I also modified the things a bit, and did a few other things with it.
06:48:39 <zzo38> Here it is: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/scripts/lifepath.txt
07:00:16 <coppro> what language is that?
07:01:26 <zzo38> TIM duplicates entry on stack the specified number of times, it is used to multiply the probability of an event.
07:03:35 <zzo38> CHA has a chance to discard something from the stack, it is used to reduce the chance of an event.
07:04:29 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
07:04:58 <zzo38> BR is line break, [ ] makes a subroutine, ( ) makes a list, {{ }} are comments, + before a command results in concatenation.
07:05:41 <zzo38> There are also other commands and prefixes and suffixes.
07:05:52 <zzo38> Although the other ones are not used in this script.
07:06:21 <zzo38> RRE means to repeat the next command a random number of times.
07:07:18 <quintopia> and you have your own program to parse this language?
07:07:45 <quintopia> looks an awful lot like a lzw descriptor language
07:07:54 <zzo38> What is lzw descriptor language?
07:08:34 <quintopia> is there a wiki page for this language?
07:08:44 <zzo38> Yes I do have a program to parse this language, you can download the PHP code or run it remotely, including custom script form you can write your own. There is no documentation unfortunately.
07:09:22 <zzo38> You can download plain source code gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0furry*FURRYSCRIPT or color source code http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/Furryscript.php
07:10:25 <zzo38> Existing scripts are in the directory http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/scripts/ you can write your own and I might include it in this collection.
07:11:28 <zzo38> Form to run existing scripts is http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php and form to write custom scripts is http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/custom.php
07:12:10 <zzo38> Yes probably it should be documented.
07:14:57 <zzo38> But so far you just look at example files and the interpreter program code.
07:17:06 <zzo38> Do you understand well any of the examples?
07:26:43 <quintopia> give me an example of how the stack is used
07:26:45 -!- BeedaWeeda has joined.
07:30:04 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Sleep).
07:34:05 <pikhq_> http://i.imgur.com/moaG3.jpg This was apparrently drawn in MS Paint.
07:54:39 -!- BeedaWeeda has quit.
08:00:26 <fizzie> One wonders if it was painted on top of a photo, though. The place at least is real; compare http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7082547
08:01:05 <fizzie> Quite a lot of pixels to fiddle in any case.
08:06:23 <quintopia> fizzie: watch the youtube video about painting mona lisa in ms paint. there are some very talented pixel artists.
08:08:54 <fizzie> I don't think that's in dispute.
08:09:27 <fizzie> Just thought I recognized the place.
08:14:39 <coppro> with a lot of time and careful application of the 1-pix brush, I can make any image
08:32:28 -!- BeedaWeeda has joined.
08:58:01 -!- azaq23 has joined.
09:28:08 -!- BeedaWeeda has quit.
09:28:28 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: kwertii).
09:41:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
09:42:54 -!- copumpkin has joined.
09:42:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
09:42:54 -!- copumpkin has joined.
09:48:29 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:54:37 -!- jcp- has joined.
09:56:17 -!- cheater__ has joined.
09:57:33 -!- clog_ has joined.
10:06:12 -!- javawizard has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:06:13 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:06:14 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:06:47 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
10:25:14 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
10:25:22 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
10:25:23 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
11:08:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:10:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:11:20 -!- copumpkin has joined.
11:11:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
11:11:21 -!- copumpkin has joined.
11:15:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:38:37 -!- Lymee has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:40:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:40:20 -!- Lymee has joined.
11:40:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
11:44:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:47:28 -!- derrik has joined.
11:49:29 -!- Lymee has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:50:19 <fizzie> Oops, you did it again?
11:51:50 <oerjan> something wanted to reboot my computer
11:53:01 <oerjan> <quintopia> i'd change Kjugobe to Djugobe, since Kj is tricky
11:54:44 <fizzie> Do you think it is kjuut instead of tricky?
11:55:56 <fizzie> The Finnish pronunciation of "kjuut" would more-or-less approximate the English "cute". (I do know it doesn't work that way when you folks do it.)
11:59:53 <CakeProphet> Is it common for modern spoken languages to have no standardization body, or is this a rare feature?
11:59:57 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal_fricative
12:00:02 -!- boily has joined.
12:00:25 <CakeProphet> oh look, I just asked a linguistic question when the topic was about linguistics. Completely coincidental.
12:00:39 <oerjan> english doesn't, but french, german, and norwegian do, iirc
12:01:38 <CakeProphet> so it seems like a common feature for living European languages, at least.
12:02:14 <oerjan> the chinese certainly did some official changing at one point
12:02:17 -!- Lymee has joined.
12:02:19 <fizzie> Icelandic has a standardization body, if I recall correctly.
12:03:20 <fizzie> Finnish has "Kotus", the "Kotimaisten kielten tutkimuskeskus" -- "Research Institute for the Languages of Finland" is the official English name -- which sort of has a similar role, in that they publish a magazine and give recommendations; but they don't have any sort of legal or really-really-official standing or anything.
12:03:48 <fizzie> "The Research Institute for the Languages of Finland is devoted to the study and language planning of Finnish, Swedish, Saami, Finnish Sign Language and Romany. We also conduct research on languages related to Finnish. Most of our research is published in the form of dictionaries."
12:04:03 <CakeProphet> It's mostly a meaningless formality though. Having a standardizing body doesn't mean that the language that is spoken by most speakers is not fluid.
12:04:04 <fizzie> They also have a hotline service, in case you have an urgent query on matters of language.
12:04:25 <fizzie> Oh, they do have a law too.
12:04:31 <fizzie> "The Research Institute is administered by the Finnish Ministry of Education and regulated by the Act on the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland (48/1976, 591/1996). A Board of Advisors supports its work."
12:04:34 <CakeProphet> Perhaps we should construct a tricky sentence and ask them to parse it for us.
12:04:58 <oerjan> norwegian also has competing "standards" made by institutions who don't like the two official forms
12:05:30 <oerjan> most notably riksmål, a more conservative form of bokmål.
12:06:55 <CakeProphet> The book held the record for the longest sentence in English literature with 13,955 words. That record was broken by Nigel Tomm's one-sentence, 469,375-word book, The Blah Story, Volume 4.
12:07:41 <fizzie> The law has a total of two sentences of content in it, and it basically just says such a research institute exists. I suppose the law's there so that they can then divert some money into it.
12:09:37 <CakeProphet> Except it apparently has a word count of over 13 million.
12:10:38 <fizzie> "The expert bodies in charge of [language planning] are statutory Language Boards, who issue decisions-in-principle and general guidelines on standard usage within each linguistic community." But it's not like they're controlling the language with an IRON FIST or anything.
12:11:07 <fizzie> I think they did publish some recommendations for Finnish translations of IT terminology way back in the 1980s/1990s, but absolutely no-one adopted those.
12:14:57 <CakeProphet> blah and blah blah to his blah character and then blah blah she was blah blah blah years old she blah blah boys about her so blah blah blah, her blah blah eyes blah blah along the blah blah blah his blah blah lips blah the pattern of a blah of blah on the blah as she blah blah blah and blah him with a blah
12:15:18 <fizzie> "... and blah him with a blah."
12:15:49 <fizzie> It sounds vaguely like fungot after a s/fnord/blah/g
12:16:04 <fizzie> What, is that bot again gone?
12:16:31 <oerjan> brave sir fungot ran away
12:16:38 -!- fungot has joined.
12:16:53 <oerjan> fungot: what is your fnord on this matter?
12:16:54 <fungot> oerjan: that's irrational. " snow crash" is worth reading: fnord/ markus/ papers/ ai-lab-pubs/ fnord?
12:17:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Now I have that ditty looping in my head, thanks for that.
12:17:03 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
12:17:28 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
12:17:38 <fungot> CakeProphet: the nebraska bill finds an early occasion to make a few words upon the general position.
12:18:00 <CakeProphet> fungot: But who gives a fuck about Nebraska?
12:18:02 <fungot> CakeProphet: those who have read those writers. let the noble teachers but dissent, it is the fnord capital of polished society. omnes fnord fnord semper fnord, was with them a war or a revolution, and who have aggravated every fault they have found out a hundred ingenious devices by which they act, and i hope that you would be glad to know, that any of those questions which drive even wise men see any reason to apprehend, beca
12:18:20 <fizzie> Nebraska -- the fnord capital of polished society.
12:19:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: omnes fnord fnord semper fnord | Esoteric programming languages | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
12:19:37 <oerjan> CakeProphet: a us state
12:20:32 <oerjan> CakeProphet: otoh i cannot say anything _else_ about it
12:20:40 <oerjan> at least not on the spot
12:20:46 <fizzie> oerjan: But could you list all 50 just like that.
12:21:08 <CakeProphet> well, I suspect he could recognize them though.
12:21:25 <fizzie> (And who stole the top half of my '?'? And is there a "pointless question mark" in Unicode?)
12:21:42 <fizzie> It could be used for pointless questions.
12:22:03 <oerjan> i could probably list _most_ of them, i guess
12:23:44 <CakeProphet> The name Wyoming derives from the Munsee name xwé:wamənk, meaning "at the big river flat", but also named after the Wyoming Valley in Pennsylvania, made famous by the 1809 poem Gertrude of Wyoming by Thomas Campbell.[
12:24:16 <CakeProphet> but then where did Wyoming Valley get its name...
12:25:00 <oerjan> alabama, california, hawaii, texas, georgia, new mexico, oregon, washington, alaska, north dakota, south dakota, idaho, minnesota, wyoming you said, illinois, kansas, new york, florida, arkansas, arizona, michigan, pennsylvania, new jersey, massachusets, missisippi, missouri, tennessee,
12:26:11 <oerjan> west virginia, virginia, maryland,
12:26:22 <CakeProphet> ...I was about to type that exact same sequence....
12:26:38 <fizzie> I was about to add Maryland first.
12:26:55 <oerjan> washington dc (not a state)
12:27:48 <CakeProphet> maine, new hampshire, delaware, kentucky, nebraska, washington, idaho, oklahoma,
12:27:50 <fizzie> Related: http://www.ozyandmillie.org/comics/om20020109.gif
12:28:29 <CakeProphet> I may actually needed to get glasses soon.
12:28:50 <CakeProphet> I believe my vision is getting poor enough to interfere with my ability to read quickly.
12:29:19 <fizzie> 2CFA;COPTIC OLD NUBIAN DIRECT QUESTION MARK;Po;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;
12:29:19 <fizzie> 2CFB;COPTIC OLD NUBIAN INDIRECT QUESTION MARK;Po;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;
12:29:24 <fizzie> But no "pointless question". :/
12:30:37 <CakeProphet> fungot: How do you feel about COPTIC OLD NUBIAN DIRECT QUESTION MARK
12:30:40 <fungot> CakeProphet: _lincoln's first public speech. from an address to an indiana regiment. march 17, 1909, and delivered a long address so ardent and thrilling that the reporters dropped their pencils and, absorbed in watching him, forgot to take down what he said was, that he was branded with the mark of his despair, the seal of solomon upon it; there he had lain neglected for many centuries, limited the labour of the factory child.
12:31:06 <oerjan> no one mentioned connecticut yet :P
12:31:11 <fizzie> Thanks to Gutenberg's really sucky approach to metadata, not all of that stuff has had titles and such cleaned up yet.
12:31:39 <fizzie> "There he had lain neglected for many centuries, limited the labour of the factory child."
12:31:48 <CakeProphet> fizzie: But it's so much easier to say WAAAAH FUNGOT IS BUGGY.
12:32:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube
12:32:25 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
12:32:27 <fizzie> Some of those abbreviations are a bit obscure.
12:32:36 <fizzie> And the youtube style's built out of a very small dataset.
12:32:47 <CakeProphet> hmmm, I should make a language that uses every possible sigil in the Perl tradition.
12:32:58 <fizzie> fungot: How do they speak in YouTube comments?
12:32:59 <fungot> fizzie: this was something like that, i liked the old avril...she used to be a president of the 3 dead.
12:33:05 <CakeProphet> er, let me make more sense. It would use !@#$%^&*
12:33:16 <oerjan> fizzie: well a larger dataset might cause fungot to go insane
12:33:16 <fungot> oerjan: " is that justin timberlake
12:33:33 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, it was a quote from him.
12:33:33 <fungot> fizzie: incredible!!... this makes you mad, very dark, gloomy. but i read or hear on internet. this has been kept neatly inside the box got hit by the looks of it
12:34:24 <CakeProphet> well # would be for numbers, obviously. $ for strings.
12:34:37 -!- derrik has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
12:35:15 <CakeProphet> having that many distinct sigils would be somewhat horrible.
12:36:24 <CakeProphet> actually I think Perl would be better off in the long run if it ditched most of its sigils. The main benefit of having the sigil is that it removes ambiguities between variable names and other syntactic elements.
12:36:45 <CakeProphet> you only need one sigil to accomplish this.
12:36:58 <CakeProphet> but then there are sigils like * which are kind of special.
12:37:04 -!- derrik has joined.
12:37:21 <CakeProphet> so I guess that would stay, or completely removed and replaced with something that.. makes more sense.
12:38:19 <CakeProphet> as far as I know % doesn't serve much of a purpose and is pretty much the same thing as @, almost.
12:38:55 <CakeProphet> I do think Perl makes some distinctions between arrays and hashes, but they both evaluate to lists in most contexts.
12:39:24 <fizzie> Currently you can have a distinct %foo and @foo, though.
12:39:42 <CakeProphet> right, I suppose that's another feature of sigils.
12:40:43 <CakeProphet> But with the addition of OO and $ seems like a catch-all for most Perl values.
12:41:13 <CakeProphet> Having @ makes sense with the list semantics though.
12:41:47 <CakeProphet> as it signifies that something is going on where it might not be expected if the variable began with a $
12:42:46 <CakeProphet> but it looks pretty tedious compared to Haskell, so I don't know if I will.
12:44:50 -!- Lymee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:45:07 -!- Lymee has joined.
12:49:44 <CakeProphet> Perl takes lists from Lisp, hashes ("associative arrays") from AWK, and regular expressions from sed. These simplify and facilitate many parsing, text-handling, and data-management tasks.
12:49:54 <CakeProphet> that's quite a stretch to say that Perl takes lists from Lisp...
12:50:57 <CakeProphet> or any data structure from... any language.
12:51:18 <CakeProphet> but Perl lists aren't even linked lists, so.. that doesn't even make sense.
12:54:27 -!- wth has joined.
12:54:37 -!- wth has left.
12:58:38 -!- Taneb has joined.
12:59:18 -!- derrik has left.
13:10:03 <fungot> CakeProphet: great video. woop.
13:10:43 <fungot> CakeProphet: i think you were still a very famous video. woop. deal with it
13:11:09 <Taneb> Yeah, CakeProphet, deal with it.
13:12:37 <Taneb> In other news, I think Egypt's having its October Revolution
13:12:47 <Taneb> JUST AS I PREDICTED IT WOULD
13:14:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:21:42 -!- Lymia has joined.
13:23:11 -!- Lymee has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
13:33:53 <cheater__> Taneb, october revolution in july? nice
13:34:02 <cheater__> they're WAY ahead of schedule on this one
13:34:58 -!- Lymia has changed nick to Lymee.
13:41:13 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:45:32 -!- Taneb has left.
14:04:01 <CakeProphet> !haskell main=putStr.ap(++)show$"main=putStr.ap(++)show$"
14:04:22 <CakeProphet> !haskell putStr.ap(++)show$"putStr.ap(++)show$"
14:04:26 <oerjan> you need to add imports for ap
14:05:04 <oerjan> actually the ghci can use explicit module qualifiers
14:05:06 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:05:16 -!- EgoBot has joined.
14:05:18 <oerjan> !haskell putStr.Monad.ap(++)show$"putStr.Monad.ap(++)show$"
14:06:00 <oerjan> no, the syntax is fine, but the -> Monad instance is an orphan one
14:06:48 <oerjan> also Monad is the old form of the module, before hierarchical libraries, it should still work
14:06:57 <oerjan> but that's not where the instance is.
14:08:07 <CakeProphet> until that day I will just understand idioms. :P
14:08:26 <oerjan> it's just Reader without the newtype wrapping :P
14:08:43 * CakeProphet hasn't learned Reader, probably because he hasn't needed it.
14:09:19 <oerjan> basically the -> monad provides an extra argument to everything
14:09:29 <lambdabot> liftM2 f m1 m2 = do { x1 <- m1; x2 <- m2; return (f x1 x2) }
14:09:57 <oerjan> which means you can use it for abstraction elimination. ap = S, return = K, ask = I
14:10:30 <CakeProphet> okay, so ap is where -> Monad is most useful?
14:11:44 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => m (m a) -> m a
14:12:02 <oerjan> join in the -> Monad essentially duplicates an argument
14:12:54 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:12:58 <oerjan> @pl does some of this automatically
14:13:10 <ais523> bleh, the wireless here was getting so shaky that I was given a wired connection instead
14:13:27 <ais523> and it has all sorts of issues, like requiring a proxy for HTTP that Firefox and Gnome can autodetect, but KDE can't
14:13:30 <oerjan> um it's actually the (e ->) Monad
14:13:34 <ais523> and firewalling port 6667 outbound
14:13:40 <ais523> (that's why I'm on webchat atm)
14:13:51 <oerjan> for e the type of the common extra argument
14:14:03 <ais523> anyone here have an idea of how to get KDE's proxy settings to work?
14:14:26 <ais523> or should I just search on the error message?
14:15:13 <oerjan> there's a trick you can sometimes use to get the -> instance type for things
14:15:19 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (a1 -> a1 -> a) -> a1 -> a
14:16:23 <oerjan> .($) is essentially a nop, except for restricting the type of the first argument of what it's added to to be a function
14:16:42 <lambdabot> forall a b a1. (a1 -> a) -> (a -> a1 -> b) -> a1 -> b
14:18:35 <CakeProphet> similar to ap, but kind of reversed in a way.
14:19:38 <oerjan> return, ask and fmap/liftM of the -> Monad are rarely used but not because they are useless they just have simpler names: const, id, (.)
14:20:03 <CakeProphet> right, I was familiar with all of those except ask.
14:20:15 <oerjan> ask is a MonadReader method
14:20:18 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) r. (MonadReader r m) => m r
14:20:50 <oerjan> it returns the commonly passed argument
14:20:52 <CakeProphet> so it's a constant, which for the -> function instance makes it a function. :)
14:22:17 <CakeProphet> what does "the commonly passed argument" even mean?
14:23:15 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Monad.Reader.Class.MonadReader
14:23:46 <oerjan> MonadReader instances are ->, Reader, and ReaderT (the transformer version)
14:25:32 <oerjan> > runReader (do x <- ask; y <- asks (+1); return $ "Argument was " ++ show x + " and argument+1 was " ++ show y) 5
14:25:33 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Base.String)
14:25:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:25:45 <CakeProphet> Reader seems kind of redundant, but ReaderT is interesting.
14:26:07 <oerjan> > runReader (do x <- ask; y <- asks (+1); return $ "Argument was " ++ show x ++ " and argument+1 was " ++ show y) 5
14:26:08 <lambdabot> "Argument was 5 and argument+1 was 6"
14:26:38 <oerjan> well Reader is just the untransformed version. You might use it on the bottom of a monad stack.
14:27:04 -!- ais523_ has joined.
14:27:24 <oerjan> in any case Reader is like State except the state is immutable. It's useful for passing common configuration and stuff.
14:27:56 <ais523_> hmm, fun news story: apparently a monkey picked up a camera and accidentally took a photo of another monkey, someone posted it online, then someone (presumably related to the camera's owner) sent a takedown notice
14:28:39 <oerjan> heh interesting copyright issue :P
14:29:50 <ais523_> ah not quite right, it seems that the monkeys took photos of themselves
14:29:56 <ais523_> because they liked looking at their reflection in the camera lens
14:30:18 <oerjan> CakeProphet: also in addition to be immutable, Reader has some better laziness properties since the passed state doesn't need to be threaded through every previous action.
14:30:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:30:47 <Taneb> I've just had an idea
14:31:01 <Taneb> An esoteric programming language based on Numberwang
14:31:12 <Taneb> From That Mitchell and Webb Look
14:31:16 <oerjan> > runReader (do x <- undefined; y <- ask; return (y+1)) 5
14:31:29 <Taneb> And also Wang B-Machines
14:31:31 <oerjan> > runState (do x <- undefined; y <- get; return (y+1)) 5
14:31:44 <Taneb> And a bit of Malbolge for extra measure
14:31:48 <oerjan> CakeProphet: see the difference?
14:32:18 <oerjan> the result of the ask is well defined because the state cannot change, but get isn't
14:32:55 <oerjan> > runState (do x <- undefined; put (10); y <- get; return (y+1)) 5
14:33:20 <Taneb> Instructions will be, GO RIGHT, GO LEFT, FLIP, IF ON GOTO, and NUMBERWANG.
14:33:31 <Taneb> Except these will be encrypted as numbers
14:33:37 <oerjan> now State works because no information about the undefined action actually is needed
14:33:50 <CakeProphet> there should also be a SHAZAM instruction.
14:35:13 <Taneb> In Soviet Russia, The State has no undefined information: action actually is needed
14:36:00 <oerjan> that's because in soviet russia, everything is strict. but somehow, still lazy.
14:36:53 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> a
14:37:10 <CakeProphet> Basically all I'm seeing is HASKELL HAS A LIMITATION SORRY.
14:37:11 <Taneb> Numberwang will be the halt instruction
14:39:16 <oerjan> not in principle, but the standard response is "it tends to make too many things type that are really errors"
14:39:31 <oerjan> (ocaml has a -t flag to allow it)
14:39:58 <CakeProphet> cool, I've always wanted a function that has infinite arguments.
14:41:17 <ais523_> lambdabot: * forall a. (a^1 -> a)^1 -> a
14:41:24 <CakeProphet> well, it could be possible to distinguish between an intended infinite type and an unintended one
14:41:29 <ais523_> otherwise the resulting program might not be finite-state
14:41:34 <CakeProphet> basically by requiring an explicit definition for intended infinite types.
14:41:42 <oerjan> CakeProphet: that's what newtypes are for :)
14:42:52 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Function (fix); newtype Fix a = Fix {unfix :: Fix a -> Fix a} deriving Show; main = print $ fix (fix . unfix)
14:43:30 <ais523_> btw, I went and declared a string-indexed array in VHDL just to see what would happen, from "hello" to "world"
14:43:36 <ais523_> well, "hello" downto "world"
14:43:41 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Function (fix); newtype Fix a = Fix {unfix :: Fix a -> Fix a}; main = return $! fix (fix . unfix)
14:44:03 <ais523_> the answer is, that it parsed correctly and typechecked correctly, then the compiler said something with a bogus line number about array indexes having to be discrete types, then crashed
14:44:16 <oerjan> CakeProphet: ok i got no error message for the last one :P
14:44:19 <CakeProphet> are you fixing fix without fixing Haskell's type system?
14:44:45 <ais523_> also, the type of fix is basicaly ((a->b)->(a->b))->(a->b)
14:45:12 <ais523_> but writing it as (a->a)->a looks cooler and is marginally more general, even though a not being a function type isn't actually useful with the standard definition of fix
14:45:33 <lambdabot> [2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,...
14:45:34 <oerjan> > fix ('a':) -- i beg to differ
14:45:34 <lambdabot> "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
14:45:46 <ais523_> oerjan: ('a':) is a function
14:46:07 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:46:07 <ais523_> CakeProphet: I mean, a should itself be a function
14:46:07 <oerjan> sure, but not of the type (a->b)->(a->b)
14:46:17 -!- EgoBot has joined.
14:46:27 <ais523_> oh, it's because you have a lazy language that you can get away with that
14:46:37 <ais523_> and recursive types, so it's actually useful
14:46:45 <ais523_> I'm working in a lazy language that doesn't have recursive types, so it isn't
14:46:57 <lambdabot> a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (a + (...
14:47:22 <ais523_> is it doing symbolic arithmetic there?
14:47:22 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
14:47:30 <lambdabot> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (...
14:47:53 <oerjan> ais523_: mind you it'll probably end up true if you recode the recursive types as lambda expressions (System F types)
14:47:57 -!- clog_ has quit (Quit: ^C).
14:48:10 <CakeProphet> with an instance of Show to display the expression that is accumulated
14:48:21 <ais523_> oerjan: there is no way to express recursive types, it's prevented by the type system
14:48:27 -!- clog has joined.
14:48:31 <ais523_> the best you can do is do, say, (int -> int) for [int]
14:48:37 <ais523_> where it's a function from index to value
14:49:44 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> cool, I've always wanted a function that has infinite arguments. <-- i almost did that for a table in unlambda once. i've never actually done so but you can make functions that take an arbitrary number of arguments and terminate on a d
14:50:34 <ais523_> I implemented one recently
14:50:46 <ais523_> it was lazy, so it only used a finite number
14:50:56 <ais523_> and call-by-name, so all arguments were obtained via callback
14:50:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:51:05 <ais523_> but it took infinitely many arguments
14:51:14 <CakeProphet> > fix (\r n -> if n == 0 then 1 else n * r (n-1)) 10
14:52:09 <oerjan> <ais523_> I implemented one recently <-- wait in what language
14:52:59 <ais523_> well, it was originally written in Haskell, using a list to hold all the arguments
14:53:18 <oerjan> CakeProphet: if you read the haskell report's definition of recursion it is actually based on (denotational) lowest fixpoint
14:53:27 <ais523_> ICA used a sort of recursive callback, where it asked for an argument, then the caller asked which argument, then it gave the argument number, then the caller gave the argument
14:53:57 <ais523_> CakeProphet: that's the usual definition
14:54:07 <ais523_> if you're writing a language and giving a denotational definition of things
14:56:20 <oerjan> yeah but it is still a little out of place since most of the haskell report is not that formal :P
14:57:16 <CakeProphet> > fix (\f n -> case n of 1 -> [1]; 2 -> [1,1]; _ -> let z@(x:y:_) = f (n-1) in x + y : z) 10
14:58:50 <CakeProphet> I love how magical fix is, while being completely definable in Haskell, and also very simple to define.
14:59:35 <CakeProphet> just shows how powerful the semantics are.
14:59:45 <ais523_> what's the Haskell definition?
15:00:04 <ais523_> heh, that actually works in Haskell
15:00:56 <ais523_> that's cheating, it defined fix in terms of fix
15:01:10 <CakeProphet> yes, this is generally how recursion works.
15:01:20 <ais523_> it should define it as fix = fix (\f. f (ap id)) instead, that makes the fixing explicit
15:01:47 <ais523_> well, Haskell uses \f-> rather than \f.
15:02:40 <CakeProphet> > let fix = fix (\f -> f (ap id)) in fix (const 4)
15:02:41 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
15:03:06 <oerjan> CakeProphet: actually it's fix f = let x = f x in x
15:03:38 <ais523_> > let fixnew = fix (\f -> f (ap id)) in fixnew (const 4)
15:03:39 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
15:03:49 <ais523_> that's what I was getting at, but it seems not to work somehow
15:03:51 <oerjan> otherwise you will recompute things a _lot_
15:04:16 <ais523_> replacing recursion with fixing like that is the standard way to transform a recursive program...
15:05:48 <lambdabot> forall a b. ((a -> b) -> a) -> (a -> b) -> b
15:06:01 <lambdabot> (\ f -> (\ a -> a) >>= \ c -> f >>= \ b -> return (c b))
15:07:36 <lambdabot> forall a b t. ((((a -> b) -> a) -> (a -> b) -> b) -> t) -> t
15:08:31 <CakeProphet> fix (\f -> f (ap id)) = ap id $ ap id $ ap id $ ap id ...
15:08:41 <oerjan> that does indeed not look like something you can pass to fix...
15:09:18 -!- monqy has joined.
15:09:28 <oerjan> it's ((...) (ap id)) (ap id) i think
15:09:54 <oerjan> :t fix (\f -> ap id f)
15:10:12 <oerjan> ais523_: you switched the argument order, i think
15:10:42 <lambdabot> forall a b. (?f::(a -> b) -> a) => (a -> b) -> b
15:11:06 <ais523_> @pl fix f = let x = f x in x
15:11:15 <ais523_> heh, that's a nice definition
15:11:22 <ais523_> I wonder if it actually works?
15:11:35 <ais523_> @pl fixnew f = let x = f x in x
15:11:54 <ais523_> and that's a sane definition
15:12:05 <ais523_> let fixnew = fixnew id in fixnew (2:)
15:12:08 <ais523_> ? let fixnew = fixnew id in fixnew (2:)
15:12:10 <ais523_> > let fixnew = fixnew id in fixnew (2:)
15:12:10 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = (a -> a) -> t
15:12:57 <oerjan> i suspect @pl gets confused when you try to define a function it uses internally. also it does no actual type checking.
15:13:10 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> a
15:13:10 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `fix' is applied to too many arguments
15:13:11 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `fix', namely `fix'
15:13:51 <lambdabot> forall a t. (((a -> a) -> a) -> t) -> t
15:13:53 <oerjan> ais523_: fix fix is already pointless so @pl would not do anything with it
15:14:06 <ais523_> but it's a quick way to verify that it isn't typechecking
15:14:58 <oerjan> also @unpl doesn't seem to do anything with fix...
15:16:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
15:35:57 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:36:03 -!- cheater_ has joined.
15:39:03 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:06:17 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
16:20:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:24:01 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
16:24:34 <fungot> quintopia: sunsoft, a dentist's office is a computer " criminal" because the tar data. but i was tempted to reply to a particular string and i'd rather that the ' 90s citizens to problems such as
16:39:54 <Gregor> The Comcast tech support goons are so cheery they're going to give me diabetes.
16:42:19 <quintopia> can't say whether i prefer cheery or sullen
16:47:59 <Gregor> They've "sent a stronger signal to my modem"
16:48:29 <fizzie> They probably have some sort of a dial, and they've turned it up to 11 now.
16:51:11 <Gregor> And the INSTANT I disconnected from the help service, my modem disconnected.
16:51:31 <Gregor> It was like "exit chat" -> "all modem lights go out"
16:53:03 <Gregor> Greatest part is the tech guy said "please make sure to leave your modem online for the next several hours"
16:53:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, did it reconnect?
16:53:21 <fizzie> They took their finger off the "more power" button when you hung up.
16:53:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's just flailing.
16:53:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, did you call them again?
16:53:49 <Gregor> fizzie: Like those turbo buttons on ancient PCs :P
16:54:01 <Vorpal> hell yes, what did those turbo buttons actually do
16:54:09 <Gregor> They overclocked the CPU.
16:54:25 <Gregor> If you held them long enough the CPU would go "OH SHIT TOO HOT" and shut down.
16:54:32 <Gregor> And you'd go "daaaaaaaamn I overturbo'd"
16:54:55 <fizzie> It's not overclocking when it's a factory-sanctioned thing. And all I ever saw were of the dual-state type.
16:55:03 <fizzie> 8 MHz to 16 MHz, wasn't it?
16:55:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was the intended use?
16:55:17 <Gregor> Something like that; but fine, it would UPclock your CPU :P
16:55:29 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:55:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I mean the reason to not use the max speed all the time
16:55:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Mostly to slow too-fast things down for compatibility.
16:55:58 <fizzie> I had one box where the frequency switch was controlled by a small executable that toggled it.
16:56:38 <fizzie> "The button was generally present on older systems, and was designed to allow the user to play older games that depended on processor speed for their timing." ('pedia.)
16:57:06 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:57:12 <Gregor> I'm kiiiiiiiiinda pissed that my modem disconnected seconds after ending the help session :P
16:57:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, did you call them again?
16:58:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, also are you on phone now?
16:58:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:58:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: I'm tethering my phone, and I used their online chat before, not a call.
16:58:33 <ais523> any guesses as to whether http://esolangs.org/wiki/http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Obeisantregion9 is a spambot or a real user?
16:58:41 <fizzie> Hey, my ADSL link is also less speedy than usually. The downstream speed tends to hover around 19000 kbps, now it's 17949 kbps. So we all have our problems here!
16:58:53 <ais523> I think probably spambot, but it hasn't spammed yet
16:58:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, well do a new online chat
16:59:10 <Vorpal> ais523, that url... what?
16:59:17 <Vorpal> "http://esolangs.org/wiki/http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Obeisantregion9" <-- what?
16:59:42 <ais523> I don't type URLs like that by hand
16:59:55 <ais523> (spambots have been known to create pages at such URLs, incidentally)
17:00:08 <Gregor> Considering that that's the only thing it's done, why don't we just wait it out :P
17:08:22 -!- cheater_ has joined.
17:16:52 -!- ralc has joined.
17:19:30 <Gregor> <HyacintheACBU> I'm going to send new signals to the modem and refresh it on my end.
17:19:36 <Gregor> I'm gonna give you NEW SIGNALS!
17:19:39 <Gregor> ENJOY THE NEW SIGNALS YUM
17:21:27 -!- Lymee has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:23:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:28:29 <Gregor> HyacintheACBU: I've successfully sent new signals to the modem.
17:30:42 <fizzie> "Your modem didn't seem to like the old signals, which were mostly Mozart. This time I sent some post-retro grindcore to your modem, let's hope it is more willing to work now."
17:34:24 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
17:34:52 -!- Lymee has joined.
17:44:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:55:28 -!- chickenzilla has joined.
18:05:14 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:06:46 <Gregor> I had to go through the whole activation procedure again though.
18:06:52 <Gregor> But at least I have NEW SIGNALS
18:07:48 <Gregor> And thusfar, no lagtown :)
18:09:24 <Vorpal> btw.. what is "ground" in a laptop. Wrt the case when it is on battery I mean
18:09:35 <Vorpal> I don't mean circuit GND
18:18:34 -!- cheater_ has joined.
18:21:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:42:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:02:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:04:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
19:04:27 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
19:04:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
19:16:05 -!- kwertii has joined.
19:34:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:36:09 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:48:17 -!- cheater_ has joined.
19:50:21 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood).
19:50:38 -!- cheater_ has joined.
19:55:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, all of TV Tropes' "You Fail X Forever" pages have been renamed to "Artistic Licence - X".
19:55:48 <augur> obviously TVTropes artistic licenses page titling.
19:58:33 <augur> clearly a WRITER discovered TVTropes
20:01:07 <oerjan> so basically we are now starting a meme where "artistic license" is a verb meaning "fail forever"?
20:01:40 <monqy> at least it's less overused I hope
20:02:03 <monqy> then again "fail" in that sense isn't near as overused as the other
20:02:38 <olsner> in what way is "fail" not overused?
20:04:47 <monqy> I notice it a lot more as an adjective/noun/interjection than in proper use, somehow
20:05:47 <olsner> the fail is fail. fail!
20:06:23 <Sgeo> Going to attempt to watch Ghostbusters
20:07:03 <oerjan> olsner: THAT IS NOT AN ACTION THAT REQUIRES EXPLANATION
20:07:21 <olsner> oerjan: I CAN STILL ASK FOR ONE, CAN'T I?
20:07:59 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:08:04 <oerjan> i guess it is physically possible
20:09:29 <olsner> it is, it was, I did it
20:09:59 <oerjan> yes. but you may have released Zuul in the process.
20:12:05 <olsner> so? as soon as someone watches ghostbusters they will just solve that problem yet again
20:13:34 <oerjan> yeah but what if someone ends up "Must not think of something immune to crossing the streams. Must not think of something immune to crossing the streams. Oh, damn."
20:14:16 <olsner> the sequel to the movies they actually made will have a solution to the stream crossing issue
20:14:41 * oerjan has only seen the first movie
20:15:06 <Taneb> I've been thinking about my next esolang, Numberwang
20:15:24 <monqy> good name what does it do
20:15:34 <olsner> monqy: rotates the board?
20:16:31 * Sgeo gives up for now
20:16:35 <Sgeo> YouTube has it mirrored
20:16:41 <Taneb> It's got elements of a Wang-B machine, Malbolge, and Numberwang from That Mitchell and Webb Look
20:16:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, lemme guess, it'll consist entirely of enterprisey buzzwords designed to make it look like there's a language somewhere which will mysteriously evaporate if any attempt is made to implement it?
20:17:16 <Taneb> Wow, that's a good idea.
20:17:21 <Taneb> But it's not Numberwang
20:17:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Code snippets which look fine at first glance, but when cross-referenced cannot possibly be part of the same language.
20:17:53 <Taneb> The programs are lists of numbers
20:18:20 <Sgeo> Taneb, you're going to re-create BancSTAR?
20:18:38 <Taneb> Closer to FRACTRAN
20:18:38 <olsner> Sgeo: speaking of which, any response from FIS?
20:18:53 <Taneb> But it's completely different
20:18:57 <Sgeo> Maybe I did something wrong
20:19:06 <monqy> you didn't say sincerely
20:19:15 <olsner> Sgeo: I'm on the wrong continent, so you'll just have to break in there yourself
20:19:19 <monqy> you didn't greet them either did you
20:19:55 <olsner> no, he freaked out when we gave him inconsistent guidelines on greetings
20:20:36 <Taneb> I need a way to convert any terminating decimal into an integer 1 to 4
20:21:19 <Sgeo> Taneb, round it to the nearest of 1,2,3, or 4
20:21:30 <Sgeo> Do something with edge cases
20:21:34 <Taneb> Nah, needs to be crazier
20:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> I need a way to convert any terminating decimal into an integer 1 to 4
20:22:01 <Taneb> Like, not recurring
20:22:03 <oerjan> you mean like 143.598632026?
20:22:18 <monqy> somehow fold all digits together then take the result modulo 4 then add one
20:22:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It even carries on Malbolge's cryptographical heritage.
20:22:56 <oerjan> convert to a continued fraction, use the last term (mod 4)
20:24:23 <Taneb> What do swords have to do with anything?
20:24:54 <Taneb> Maybe someone blue-nosed bowdlerised it?
20:25:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that's becoming distressingly common on TV Tropes these days.
20:25:59 <oerjan> > unfoldr (\n -> if n==0 then Nothing else let f = floor n in Just (f, 1/(n - f))) (143.598632026 :: Rational)
20:26:00 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral GHC.Real.Rational)
20:26:20 <oerjan> > unfoldr (\n -> if n==0 then Nothing else let f = fromIntegral $ floor n in Just (f, 1/(n - f))) (143.598632026 :: Rational)
20:26:21 <lambdabot> [143,1,1,2,28,1,5,3,1,4,4,1,2,1,1,1,1,4,1,3,1,1,1,1,2*Exception: Ratio.%: z...
20:29:42 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to cowworker.
20:33:16 <oerjan> > unfoldr (\n -> if n==0 then Nothing else let n' = 1/n; f = fromIntegral $ floor n' in Just (f, n' - f)) $ recip (143.598632026 :: Rational)
20:33:17 <lambdabot> [143,1,1,2,28,1,5,3,1,4,4,1,2,1,1,1,1,4,1,3,1,1,1,1,2]
20:34:20 <oerjan> > unfoldr (\n -> if n==0 then Nothing else let n' = 1/n; f = fromIntegral $ floor n' in Just (f, n' - f)) $ recip (2.718281828 :: Rational)
20:34:20 <lambdabot> [2,1,2,1,1,4,1,1,6,1,1,8,1,1,3,1,1,1,2,10,1,6,2,2]
20:34:57 <oerjan> > unfoldr (\n -> if n==0 then Nothing else let n' = 1/n; f = fromIntegral $ floor n' in Just (f, n' - f)) $ recip (2.718281828459045 :: Rational)
20:34:58 <lambdabot> [2,1,2,1,1,4,1,1,6,1,1,8,1,1,10,1,1,12,1,1,10,2,1,3,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,7,4...
20:35:48 -!- cowworker has changed nick to copumpkin.
20:56:53 * oerjan ponders if it would be easy to implement a TC subset of underload in DigFill
21:13:17 <oklopol> oerjan: let S be a lattice (and a poset), making S^Z a lattice in a natural way. the CA G is lattice-linear if it is a shift-commuting continuous endomorphism of S^Z. theorem: if S = {0, 1}, then a lattice-linear G must be a trivial map or a shift.
21:17:44 <oklopol> proof: since a homomorphism must be order-preserving, if all-0 and all-1 map to all-b for the same b, then the map is trivial. so we may assume all-b maps to all-b. now, consider x = \inf^010^inf. x anded with some of its shifts is all-0, so the image of x must contain a 0. so G(x)_i = 0.
21:17:46 <oklopol> but then for any point y containing a 0 in coordinate j, G(y)_{j+i} = 0 by order-preservingness, and similarly there is such a i' that a 1 in a point forces a 1 somewhere. obviously i = i' or points x with x_i = 0, x_{i'} = 1 cannot have images. but then G is a shift.
21:18:49 <oklopol> (we're still working on the general case, although it's probably not much harder)
21:19:59 <oklopol> sorry *"or points x with x_{-i} = 0, x_{-i'} = 1 cannot have images"
21:21:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:22:03 <oklopol> in general i'm very interested in the shift-commuting continuous endmorphisms for algebras over S^Z induced by finite algebras S
21:22:24 <oerjan> there is no f way i'm going to try to understand that.
21:22:28 <oklopol> linearity of couse being the most studied case
21:22:55 <oklopol> "shift-commuting continuous endomorphism" just means it doesn't matter whether you take ands of points before or after the map
21:23:15 <oklopol> or maybe you meant that actual proof
21:26:10 <oklopol> basically i just said ...0001000... cannot map to all-0, or lattice-linearity would be contradicted, so the image has a 1 somewhere. but every point having a 1 somewhere is greater than or equal to a shift of ...0001000..., so you'll have that same 1 in the image of every point.
21:26:32 <oklopol> the same distance away from the 1 in the preimage
21:26:41 <oerjan> or to be precise, i meant _math in general_.
21:27:04 <oklopol> everyone except oerjan: what i just said
21:33:13 <oklopol> btw it's kind of fascinating that we apparently still don't know if the automorphism groups of the full 2-shift and the full 3-shift are isomorphic
21:34:33 <oklopol> i should probably check this factoid, might've been solved now
21:36:45 <Taneb> "All fnord fnord always fnord"?
21:36:58 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: again why does the market put up with an mclput message ( and 2.3 displays it correctly, maybe i want to buy a " revision" of circa 1989 ( from the user's full name later.
21:37:12 <oerjan> Taneb: words of wisdom by fungot
21:37:12 <fungot> oerjan: hell, sendmail, inserts return-path headers at will and does not have a lot
21:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, hey, any chance of homestyle in the near future?
21:39:52 <Taneb> Should I define the Numberwang operation in Numberwang, or keep it vague?
21:40:40 <oerjan> Taneb: you should define it with a program in numberwang.
21:40:49 <Taneb> I reckon Numberwang is Turing Complete without it
21:42:04 <Taneb> I have it print "It's Numberwang!\n"
21:43:58 <Taneb> Or run the Numberwang program "12! 4.4! 92! 10! 49.8! 2! 2! 2!" with the current tape and everything
21:45:12 <Taneb> Except I have no idea if Numberwang can do loops
21:45:31 <Taneb> It has a GOTO command
21:46:28 <monqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numberwang this isn't your numberwang I hope
21:46:50 <monqy> because that numberwang has loops and is bad
21:47:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, motion that the wiki has a Brainfuck: namespace.
21:48:31 <monqy> so how does numberwang work?
21:49:15 <Taneb> I may write an interpreter and release it closed-source
21:49:32 <Taneb> Just to watch everyone not bother to do anything about it
21:49:35 <Phantom_Hoover> In that case, may I ask if you know how the wiki's copyrights are set up?
21:51:26 <oerjan> motion that people stop thinking i'm a wiki admin
21:52:56 <Taneb> So, may I move the existing Numberwang?
21:53:18 <Taneb> Which is: a) Orphaned
21:53:39 <Taneb> c) a brainfuck derivative
21:54:01 <Taneb> d) not actually uncategorized
21:58:35 <Taneb> Is there a proper way to link to Wikipedia, or do I just use the external links?
21:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Nor fancy anything, since the version of MediaWiki used is like 5 years old.
22:04:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: actually [[Wikipedia:...] works afair
22:04:53 <oerjan> but it may not be a good idea since it makes the link look internal
22:06:44 <Taneb> What do you call it, when you've got the list, the text between the items?
22:08:12 <Taneb> Like, if I wanted to have Numberwang programs as 13! 42! 2! 7! 9!, it would be "!"
22:09:15 <Taneb> Also, is moduloed a word?
22:09:20 <Taneb> As in, moduloed by four
22:09:41 <oerjan> heh in math one usually says "modulo four"
22:09:54 <coppro> oerjan: indeed, but in programming we have the modulo operator
22:11:32 <oerjan> although it is not _exactly_ the same as the result of applying modulo by four, it modifies a congruence
22:11:59 <oerjan> 7 = 11 (mod 4), where the = should have 3 lines
22:12:54 <oerjan> and that use is afaik considerably older than the use as an operator name
22:14:00 <Taneb> If I said "modulo 4", etc, the sentence would be ambiguous.
22:14:04 <Taneb> I've worked around it
22:14:59 <oerjan> you could use remainder
22:15:17 <oerjan> but i guess that gets more verbose again
22:21:45 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numberwang
22:23:47 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
22:23:49 <Gregor> It should be Numberwank.
22:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, that would completely defeat the point of the reference.
22:32:13 <Taneb> What was your idea?
22:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The enterprisey jargon that made it look like there was a language where there was none.
22:35:47 <Rugxulo> I've been away from here too long ... is there a good message board / forum to frequent these days?
22:36:07 * Rugxulo is not interested in searching months of backlogs ...
22:36:21 <Rugxulo> I probably missed some interesting stuff ... is fizzie here now? perhaps he can sum it up for me
22:36:22 <monqy> the message board / forum is too dead to be good
22:36:29 <oerjan> Rugxulo: we mainly just discuss things here and on the wiki
22:36:31 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Vectron.
22:36:39 <oerjan> the forum gets the rare message
22:36:55 <Rugxulo> I always forget to check the wiki (and should signup / add some stuff one day, e.g. ETA page is woefully slim)
22:37:57 <oerjan> fizzie seems to have been silent for a while
22:38:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Rugxulo, you mean the general haps of the community, or specific esolang stuff?
22:38:23 -!- Vectron has changed nick to copumpkin.
22:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (OK, community is entirely the wrong word, but whatever._
22:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god, that term has been appropriated for strip clubs.
22:40:09 <Taneb> It is a club, that is for gentelmen
22:40:15 <Taneb> As in, men who are gentle
22:40:39 <Taneb> Where they can sit quietly and read, or play bridge if they desire
22:41:13 <monqy> no were a strip club
22:41:25 <Taneb> Don't know how to play
22:41:43 <monqy> I should learn to play bridge sometime
22:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I understand that you can play it on these new-fangled computing machines though.
22:42:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I was directed to http://www.chroniclogic.com/bcs_download.htm when I inquired.
22:42:56 <oklopol> well i've pasted videos of myself naked here
22:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, sure, but other than augur, who was watching it?
22:44:09 <augur> WHERE ARE THESE NAKED OKLOPOLS
22:44:14 <Taneb> You don't know what gender I am
22:44:33 <Taneb> But yeah, I'm male
22:44:39 <augur> how did i miss naked oklopol :(
22:44:43 <oklopol> augur: i played something on the piano
22:45:07 <Taneb> Me finally here on the ground,
22:45:13 <oklopol> actually the vids have been moved to a better place.
22:45:40 <oklopol> augur: you can't actually see anything :D
22:45:49 <augur> oklopol: well what CAN i see
22:46:09 <augur> oklopol: no i know
22:46:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not going to be 40 for a while
22:46:15 <oklopol> you can see my naked arms i suppose
22:46:26 <oklopol> and maybe, MAYBE, part of my penis
22:47:01 <oklopol> i actually love banging my dick against the keys
22:47:02 <coppro> < augur> oklopol: :O <-- you would, wouldn't you
22:47:10 <augur> coppro: yes, i would
22:47:20 <augur> i believe i just said that
22:47:39 <Taneb> I am regretting joining this chat
22:47:59 <Taneb> Wrong-gentlemen's-club-y
22:48:32 <Taneb> Now, that just sounds like a woodwind instrument
22:48:50 <oklopol> speaking of being gay, maybe i should've gone to america instead of europe for my vacation, augur would probably have agreed to meet me (unlike SOME PEOPLE :||)
22:49:15 <augur> oklopol: depends on what you were looking to be agreed with about
22:49:35 <oklopol> "how about next week?" "hmm hmm it seems i'm busy sorry"
22:49:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um we have at least two people here right now who may be female
22:49:45 <oklopol> "uhhuh, and the week after that is busy i guess?"
22:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, TbH, the part of England elliott lives in is so boring it'd be a waste.
22:50:21 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> (Lymee is almost certainly a 40-year-old man.) <-- oh, ok.
22:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (I vaguely remember coming across something mildly indicative of femaleness while trying to unravel the mystery of who the hell all these lurkers are.)
22:51:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:52:34 <oerjan> <Taneb> I am regretting joining this chat <-- you know, there used to much more of this stuff a few years ago :P
22:52:56 <Taneb> I'm sincerely glad I'm a newb, then
22:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You mean the legendary days of 2008, when in the words of elliott the channel should have been renamed to ##gaysex?
22:53:26 <augur> oerjan: i was more active a few years ago.
22:53:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: Elizacat
22:53:59 <augur> ive been in #haskell and #agda primarily, recently
22:54:39 <oerjan> <augur> oerjan: i was more active a few years ago. <-- THAT WOULD EXPLAIN IT YES
22:55:01 <oklopol> personally i find gay sex WAY more interesting to talk about than software/unix/compiles/whatever that stuff is you ppl are always whining about
22:56:36 <oklopol> you know that's not saying much
22:57:00 <Rugxulo> I'll admit *nix is boring, but not THAT boring!
22:57:15 <Taneb> Okay, I've created three esoteric programming languages this year, and they all begin with N
22:57:18 <oerjan> Taneb: although funnily i can only recall two people on the channel who are openly gay. (augur being one, of course.)
22:57:22 <Rugxulo> BTW, new FreeDOS kernel 2040 released a few weeks ago ;-)
22:57:28 <oklopol> i have a complete mental ignore for all of that computer stuff, despite (and perhaps due to) years of trying to get interested in it
22:57:52 <Rugxulo> in fact, I'm using it now! :-))
22:58:10 <Taneb> I'm not homophobic, I just don't like talking about sex or nakedness
22:58:14 <Phantom_Hoover> <augur> ive been in #haskell and #agda primarily, recently
22:58:38 <augur> its like epigram except it gets released xP
22:58:48 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: oh yes
22:58:54 <Taneb> oklopol: parents raised me that way, maybe
22:59:04 <Taneb> Or maybe it's because I'm asexual.
22:59:11 <oerjan> `addquote <augur> ive been in #haskell and #agda primarily, recently <Phantom_Hoover> So is #agda now full of dependently-typed gay sex?
22:59:15 <HackEgo> 503) <augur> ive been in #haskell and #agda primarily, recently <Phantom_Hoover> So is #agda now full of dependently-typed gay sex?
22:59:18 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: that and insights from mcbride and other shit
22:59:28 <Taneb> Bi- leaning hetero-romantic
23:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I recall reading the log of the first time CakeProphet came here and seeing pikhq_ claim that asexuality was literally biologically impossible.
23:00:11 <oklopol> well that's kinda gay, i hoped like complete disinterest in relationships
23:00:25 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, what did I what what?
23:00:35 <Taneb> oklopol: Nah, just I rather ironically find sex a turn-off
23:00:44 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: no, but hes an expert on dependent types!
23:01:45 <coppro> Taneb: you have been in relationships, yes?
23:01:50 <oklopol> Taneb: what about MAKING LOVE?
23:02:09 <Taneb> THAT'S JUST A EUPHEMISM FOR THE SAME ACT!
23:02:23 <Taneb> coppro: Got a crush on this girl, though
23:02:29 <Rugxulo> Mike Love? nah, he's a Beach Boy ^_^
23:02:32 <oklopol> no, there's way more love involved
23:02:44 <augur> Taneb: uh, i dont know about you but when i make love it requires milk, flour, eggs, sugar..
23:03:02 <Taneb> Oh, look, it's tomorrow
23:03:21 <Taneb> This has nothing to do whatsoever with where the conversation has turned
23:03:23 <oerjan> ...you chased him away. i should ban the lot of you :P
23:03:40 -!- Taneb has left.
23:05:49 -!- elliott has joined.
23:06:53 <augur> you missed all the gaysex
23:07:33 <oklopol> yeah me and augur had a "conversation"
23:08:01 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: boring).
23:08:18 <augur> btw who reads scandinavia and the world?
23:09:57 <oklopol> i think it's reasonably funny
23:10:07 <oklopol> at least the ones i've seen linked
23:10:44 <oerjan> augur: i actually started binging it yesterday
23:11:20 <augur> oklopol: you are finland. just sayin
23:11:32 <oerjan> <augur> you missed all the gaysex <-- ok new theory, elliott _is_ Taneb
23:12:18 <oklopol> i'm a pretty stereotypical finn in many ways
23:12:49 <oerjan> oklopol: so you are precisely like that finnish guy on satw, right?
23:13:04 <oklopol> i don't know that much about him
23:13:25 <oerjan> elliott: you arrived 3 minutes after we embarassed him to leave
23:13:44 <oklopol> you think we embarassed him?
23:14:15 <elliott> oerjan: I TOLD YOU WE HAD GUESTS
23:16:11 <oklopol> really asexuality is pretty awesome, i could do way more mathing if i was asexual
23:16:25 <oerjan> elliott: recap: Phantom_Hoover called #esoteric a gentlemen's club and then realized what that meant in american. then the discussion passed on to naked pictures of oklopol and someone woke up augur. the rest should be obvious.
23:17:09 <oerjan> oklopol: he _said_ he didn't like the subject.
23:17:26 <elliott> <oklopol> really asexuality is pretty awesome, i could do way more mathing if i was asexual
23:17:30 <oerjan> he also denied that was why he left, but...
23:17:36 <elliott> there are testosterone inhibitors available HTH
23:17:40 <oklopol> not liking it != being embarrassed about it
23:18:26 <oklopol> elliott: the problem is not so much that i need my 2-5 orgasms a day, more that i start feeling like life is completely pointless if i don't get laid for a week
23:18:57 <oklopol> that is, with a living object other than myself
23:19:53 <augur> oklopol: i'd be happy to help you with that
23:20:08 <oklopol> so would the retarded girl!
23:20:21 <oklopol> actually i think it was just a sick joke, since she then just left.
23:20:22 <augur> yeah but a) retarded, b) girl
23:20:33 <augur> oklopol: what happened to your girlfriend, anyway
23:20:47 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, she wouldn't have sex with him in a bath of coke.
23:21:59 <oklopol> i had some issues with her starting serious relationships with other guys, and things lead to another and now she's in africa.
23:22:25 <oklopol> i was fine with an open relationship ofc but i'm not really a polyamorist
23:22:58 <oklopol> oh also what Phantom_Hoover said
23:23:03 <oklopol> that was really the main thing
23:23:29 <augur> oklopol: well, come to maryland. :D
23:25:33 <elliott> You're receiving this because at some point in the past, the dice roller
23:25:33 <elliott> at nomic.net (dice@nomic.net) received a request purporting to be from
23:25:33 <elliott> We are happy to announce the deployment of a new dice roller to replace
23:25:34 <elliott> the original one, which is now more than 10 years old.
23:25:47 <elliott> A NEW AGE OF NOMIC DICE ROLLERS HAS ARRIVED
23:29:19 <oklopol> 7 lines is not very spamic here
23:29:59 <augur> oklopol: if its 7 screenfulls of lambdabot, its a regular occurance
23:30:05 <augur> or of some other evaluator
23:30:16 -!- ralc_ has joined.
23:30:28 -!- ralc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:30:37 <elliott> oerjan: 07:26:45: -!- BeedaWeeda has joined #esoteric.
23:31:10 <quintopia> is boily back from wherever he went off to?
23:31:18 <elliott> < 1310542005 7325 :BeedaWeeda!~BeedaWeed@74-45-176-122.dr01.pasn.ca.frontiernet.net JOIN :#esoteric
23:31:24 <elliott> wtf, is that a different isp?
23:32:22 <elliott> 12:06:55: <CakeProphet> The book held the record for the longest sentence in English literature with 13,955 words. That record was broken by Nigel Tomm's one-sentence, 469,375-word book, The Blah Story, Volume 4.
23:32:26 <elliott> that thing has like fifteen volumes
23:32:41 <elliott> "The tenth volume of The Blah Story by Nigel Tomm was published in 2008. In this volume Nigel Tomm shocks us with (only) one unthinkable word, which is 2,087,214 letters long (read more)!!!"
23:33:02 <elliott> Also 'The Blah Story, Volume 10' encloses the world's longest word which contains 2,087,214 letters. The ultra long word was created using very simple algorithm. Nigel Tomm joyfully explains an algorithm of building his extra size word: "Fuse separate words together no matter how cool you think they look singly."
23:33:23 <oklopol> i mean people have spent HOURS just debugging bots and shit here which is often just repeating "<bot> hello everyone <u> !do stuff <bot> the wrong thing to say <u> fucking ass-originating shit <bot> bye"
23:33:31 <elliott> Let me summarize some facts about world’s longest book/novel - The Blah Story. Nigel Tomm’s abstract novel The Blah Story was begun to publish in the October 2007. In 2007 first 4 volumes were published. In 2008 next 19 volumes were published. For now, 23 volumes of The Blah Story are published, they contain 11,338,105 words; 61,745,771 characters (with spaces); 17,868 pages.
23:33:36 <elliott> http://theblahstory.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/the_blah_story_covers_big.jpg
23:34:10 <elliott> 12:14:57: <CakeProphet> blah and blah blah to his blah character and then blah blah she was blah blah blah years old she blah blah boys about her so blah blah blah, her blah blah eyes blah blah along the blah blah blah his blah blah lips blah the pattern of a blah of blah on the blah as she blah blah blah and blah him with a blah
23:34:10 <elliott> 12:15:03: <CakeProphet> ...this sounds like such a good read.
23:34:51 <monqy> is that an actual quotation from an actual volume of that actual story
23:34:56 <monqy> maybe it's art or something
23:35:02 <oerjan> elliott: it seems somewhat dubious to consider this "english literature"
23:35:09 <elliott> oerjan: i object, this is awesome literature
23:35:17 <elliott> or arey ou objecting to the english part :D
23:35:59 <oklopol> "<monqy> is that an actual quotation from an actual volume of that actual story" <<< someone answer plz
23:38:01 <elliott> http://theblahstory.wordpress.com/
23:38:09 <elliott> seventeen thousand pages for you
23:38:23 <elliott> oklopol: oh and it's available to download.
23:38:33 <monqy> Book Title: The Blah Story / Author: Nigel Tomm / # of Words: 11,300,000[citation needed] / Language: English / Reason for Dispute: Text composed mainly of 'blah's.[citation needed]
23:38:37 <elliott> Here’s an excerpt (the first page of The Blah Story, Volume 8):
23:38:37 <elliott> Then blah again to blah this time, where she blah blah with arty blah and blah in blah, took blah the simple blah, and wrote some blah blah poetry, supposedly the blah of a blah blah blah on the blah of the blah blah title My Blah Story:
23:38:37 <elliott> Blah you. About you. You blame me. Blah you.
23:38:37 <elliott> I blah as you or blah by blah,
23:38:39 <elliott> You know. You blah. You blah it out of blah.
23:38:47 <elliott> Discovers blah and circles
23:38:49 <elliott> Into blah. ‘My eyes,’ I scream.
23:39:02 <oerjan> to blah or not to blah, that's the blah. for whether it's nobler to blah or to blah, perchance to blah
23:39:06 <elliott> Longest sentence continues – “The Blah Story, Volume 18″
23:39:07 <elliott> June 12, 2008 by theblahstory
23:39:07 <elliott> The eighteenth volume of The Blah Story by Nigel Tomm was published in 2008. The Blah Story, Volume 18 continues the longest sentence everrrrrrrrrrr (sorrry for rrrrrrrrrr’s, sometimes I just can’t control myself). The ultra-long sentence was started in Volume 16 and continued in Volume 17 (read more). For now, the sentence occupies three 812-page The Blah Story volumes (16, 17 and 18) and… there’s still more behind!
23:41:30 <elliott> 12:49:44: <CakeProphet> Perl takes lists from Lisp, hashes ("associative arrays") from AWK, and regular expressions from sed. These simplify and facilitate many parsing, text-handling, and data-management tasks.
23:41:30 <elliott> 12:49:54: <CakeProphet> that's quite a stretch to say that Perl takes lists from Lisp...
23:41:40 <elliott> I think Lisp actually introduced the dynamically-sized list structure
23:41:48 <elliott> As a language element, I mean
23:47:30 <elliott> 14:30:47: <Taneb> I've just had an idea
23:47:30 <elliott> 14:31:01: <Taneb> An esoteric programming language based on Numberwang
23:47:30 <elliott> 14:31:12: <Taneb> From That Mitchell and Webb Look
23:47:30 <elliott> WE ARE CULTURED, WE KNOW WHAT NUMBERWANG IS
23:48:02 <elliott> 14:38:31: <CakeProphet> something wrong with an infinite -> tree?
23:48:08 <elliott> I believe this makes the type system unsound (oerjan?)
23:49:00 <elliott> 14:44:45: <ais523_> also, the type of fix is basicaly ((a->b)->(a->b))->(a->b)
23:49:00 <elliott> 14:44:50: <ais523_> *basically
23:49:00 <elliott> 14:45:12: <ais523_> but writing it as (a->a)->a looks cooler and is marginally more general, even though a not being a function type isn't actually useful with the standard definition of fix
23:49:05 <elliott> oh, he already got told right after
23:49:50 <elliott> 14:48:31: <ais523_> the best you can do is do, say, (int -> int) for [int]
23:49:50 <elliott> 14:48:37: <ais523_> where it's a function from index to value
23:52:18 <elliott> oh, i see, the context is not lamdba calculus
23:52:19 <oerjan> <elliott> I believe this makes the type system unsound (oerjan?) <-- ocaml manages... i'd imagine it doesn't hurt more than non-termination in general?
23:53:00 <elliott> 14:58:50: <CakeProphet> I love how magical fix is, while being completely definable in Haskell, and also very simple to define.
23:53:00 <elliott> 14:59:35: <CakeProphet> just shows how powerful the semantics are.
23:53:00 <elliott> 14:59:45: <ais523_> what's the Haskell definition?
23:53:00 <elliott> 14:59:56: <CakeProphet> fix f = f (fix f)
23:53:11 <elliott> oerjan: ocaml has a weaker type system than Haskell's...
23:53:14 <oerjan> < elliott> oh, he already got told right after
23:53:27 <elliott> dammit oerjan why didn't you tell CakeProphet he was wrong :((((((((
23:54:43 <elliott> 15:11:06: <ais523_> @pl fix f = let x = f x in x
23:54:43 <elliott> 15:11:06: <lambdabot> fix = fix id
23:55:22 <elliott> 16:24:01: <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
23:55:22 <fungot> elliott: why not support certain common denominators in the towel and start learning perl. i've been using ftp software's network monitor program and mis-typed a command to execute something like that, you
23:55:29 <oerjan> elliott: in any case i've always heard that the reason haskell doesn't allow implicitly recursive types is not something fundamental but because it would make too many obvious errors type (presumably involving missing function arguments)
23:55:45 <elliott> oerjan: fair enough, but I'm still Suspicious(tm)
23:55:57 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect that @pl is confused because it contains fix which @pl uses internally
23:56:44 <elliott> ?pl alakazam f = let x = f x in x
23:57:51 <elliott> 19:55:14: <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, all of TV Tropes' "You Fail X Forever" pages have been renamed to "Artistic Licence - X".