00:10:32 <quintopia> elliott: you may be right. i genuinely wanted to learn, but i apologize if that was insensitive, etc.
00:10:47 <oklofok> i have no idea when i did that
00:11:26 <elliott> oklofok: do you want to server
00:12:05 <oklofok> oerjan: did you hear the great news, i'm not almost sure that my characterization works
00:12:20 <oklofok> elliott: i have to watch a few more eps and get to work but sure
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00:12:43 <oklofok> erm or no i don't want to server, i thought you said do i want the server
00:12:52 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: rewatching hustle
00:13:08 <elliott> oklofok: but we need TESTERS.
00:13:26 <oklofok> surprisingly enough, i think it's great
00:13:34 <oklofok> like every other show i've watched
00:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, you should totally join the official #esoteric Homestuck club.
00:14:18 <oklofok> i still don't really know what homestuck is
00:14:56 <elliott> you have to spread it to as many computers as you can.
00:15:02 <elliott> it was made by a sick, demented man known only as Satan.
00:16:08 <oerjan> <oklofok> oerjan: did you hear the great news, i'm not almost sure that my characterization works <-- freudian slip?
00:16:46 <oerjan> YOU SUBCONSCIOUS MAY DISAGREE
00:16:56 <oklofok> well i convinced one guy already
00:17:09 <oklofok> but no one at the uni so will have to wait for a while
00:17:25 <oklofok> only me and people holding summer internships
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00:23:10 <oklopol> in my dream, i was finland
00:23:41 <oklopol> and america was trying to sleep with norway but she did not want to convert to euro, so she refused.
00:24:09 <oklopol> also norway was my cousin and america was a character from hustle
00:24:28 <oerjan> oklopol: http://satwcomic.com/ , hth
00:24:31 <oklopol> oh and i was trying to find gold at the beach inside the palace of my friend who lived in rome
00:26:56 * oerjan considers archive binging it
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00:31:42 <Gregor> Yup, definitely bricked my router.
00:32:20 <oklopol> do you mean you took it in the ass from a truck driver
00:34:47 <Gregor> elliott: Trying to upgrade my (custom) firmware. Downloaded the WRT54G firmware instead of the WRT54G2 firmware.
00:35:25 <oerjan> a great day for masonry
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00:40:53 <elliott> Gregor: I doubt "bricked" is accurate :P
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00:44:16 -!- elliott has set topic: Esoteric programming languages | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:44:22 <elliott> monqy: quick bring them back
00:44:47 <monqy> whois says otherwise
00:45:27 * oerjan checks what the previous topic was
00:45:43 <oerjan> jesus has coeliac disease?
01:08:00 <Gregor> elliott: Special JTAG cable + soldering required to unbrick.
01:08:09 <Gregor> elliott: Cost of equipment to fix router is greater than cost of a new router :P
01:08:45 <CakeProphet> elliott: not necessarily. Wouldn't Signal a t allow either discrete or continuous? Basically I write functions that except both or only one kind of signal, without having to use a typeclass to convert everything to discrete.
01:10:22 <oerjan> ^ul ((phantom types )S:^):^
01:10:23 <fungot> phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types phantom types ph ...too much output!
01:13:42 <elliott> CakeProphet: So you've achieved... the same as a typeclass.
01:13:50 <elliott> Except it requires a language extension and doesn't let anyone add new types of signal
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01:22:49 <oklopol> so often i have this dream that i have to hit someone but my punches move reeeeeally slowly
01:22:59 <oklopol> maybe i should become a boxer, i have way too much brain for my needs
01:33:49 <CakeProphet> elliott: the idea was to have a typeclass as well. But it would only have one function instead of two..
01:37:28 <CakeProphet> using only typeclasses enforced some kind of conversion in order to operate on the signal, with a single GADT I can use both kinds of signal in one function, while also having it typecheck in the case that the wrong kind of signal is used.
01:39:19 <CakeProphet> also, I think being afraid of language extensions is silly. GHC is the de facto Haskell compiler more or less.
01:39:21 <elliott> It doesn't force conversion
01:39:25 <elliott> It just forces using via an interface
01:39:35 <elliott> And language extensions are silly when there's literally no gain
01:40:52 <CakeProphet> toDiscrete :: Signal t a -> Signal Discrete a
01:41:24 <elliott> For a start, that type is way insufficient
01:41:27 <elliott> You need to give a sampling rate
01:41:45 <CakeProphet> the sampling rate isn't part of the type it's a constructor argument
01:41:46 <elliott> sample :: SampleRate -> CSignal a -> DSignal a
01:41:56 <elliott> CakeProphet: That's still not enough for toDiscrete
01:42:01 <elliott> You cannot just convert a continuous signal to a discrete one
01:42:04 <elliott> You must use a certain sampling rate.
01:42:13 <elliott> Anyway, [(Time,a)] is a much better model for a discrete signal.
01:42:17 <elliott> That doesn't force a constant sampling rate.
01:43:10 <elliott> <elliott> sample :: SampleRate -> CSignal a -> DSignal a
01:43:12 <elliott> How is that not typechecked?
01:43:21 <elliott> newtype CSignal a = CSignal (Time -> a)
01:43:26 <elliott> newtype DSignal a = DSignal [(Time,a)]
01:43:32 <elliott> instance Signal CSignal where ...
01:43:34 <CakeProphet> it requires that the argument be continuous.
01:43:35 <elliott> instance Signal DSignal where ...
01:43:51 <elliott> CakeProphet: Well, yeah, why would you want to sample a DSignal?
01:44:01 <elliott> Just treating it like a continuous signal would be a rather poor sample rate converter
01:44:18 <elliott> _Mine_ is better typechecked, because it stops you sampling non-continuous singals :)
01:44:27 <CakeProphet> I don't need to treat it like a continuous signal, I can treat it like a discrete signal and convert the sample rate.
01:44:59 <elliott> OK, so you actually have two functions.
01:45:12 <elliott> sample and convertSampleRate.
01:45:21 <elliott> convertSampleRate :: (Signal t) => SampleRate -> t -> DSignal a
01:45:32 <elliott> convertSampleRate :: (Signal t) => SampleRate -> t a -> DSignal a
01:46:03 <elliott> CakeProphet: But really, you should have
01:46:11 <elliott> sample :: SampleRate -> CSignal a -> DSignal a
01:46:18 <elliott> convertSampleRate :: SampleRate -> DSignal a -> DSignal a
01:46:40 <CakeProphet> okay fine I'll just have a multitude of functions and typeclasses when I could merge it into one type transparently.
01:46:41 <elliott> That avoids conflating the two separate functions.
01:46:53 <elliott> CakeProphet: You would have exactly one typeclass, Signal.
01:47:02 <elliott> And having a multitude of functions is a good thing, it's called a rich set of operations
01:47:12 <elliott> Sampling a continuous signal and converting the sample rate of a discrete signal are not the same thing
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04:08:58 <zzo38> Finally I got DVI output to printer working correctly, using a program called "dviout".
04:10:44 <zzo38> It requires no PostScript, no raw printer codes, no PDF, no TrueType, no of that other stuff (although it does support all of these features).
04:11:38 <zzo38> How can you have a beautiful ending without making beautiful mistakes?
04:11:46 <zzo38> If at first you do succeed...try something harder.
04:36:57 <elliott> Lymia: Are you responsible for the /snow command.
04:47:05 <zzo38> What is a /snow command?
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04:57:53 <Sgeo_> elliott is capable of making infinity be less than 15*4
04:59:12 <Sgeo_> I need to not drown right now
04:59:32 <Sgeo_> I am? I can't tell, I'm lagging that badly
05:10:39 <pikhq> Man. I never really thought about that... Having "In God We Trust" on the US nickle in particular is quite a dick move.
05:10:53 <pikhq> (for non-Americans: Thomas Jefferson appears on the US nickle)
05:11:11 <pikhq> It's the very antithesis of the man.
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05:51:31 <cheater_> pikhq_, are you assuming brazilians know what's on the us nickle?
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06:03:04 <pikhq_> cheater_: No, but (unfortunately) "American" is the demonym for citizens of the USA.
06:05:38 <pikhq_> It works a bit better in Esperanto. "Usonanto", IIRC.
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08:10:22 <Deewiant> http://www.vimprobable.org/ This guy really doesn't like Google.
08:15:18 <elliott> People actually use Scroogle?
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08:21:59 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
08:23:15 <elliott> The paranoia isn't the thing, it's the Brandt.
08:24:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The paranoia presumably overcomes the aversion to him.
08:24:18 <elliott> More likely they've no aversion.
08:25:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm surprised the page didn't insult me when it looked at my user agent.
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08:33:40 <Vorpal> <Deewiant> http://www.vimprobable.org/ This guy really doesn't like Google. <-- heh
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10:15:23 <elliott_> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.org/
10:16:54 <elliott_> is downforeveryoneorjustme.org down for everyone or just me :D
10:17:11 <fizzie> It's just you, do-man.
10:17:18 <Deewiant> The PHP is down, the HTML isn't
10:17:26 <lifthrasiir> That depends on the universe you are observing.
10:18:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: Pure guess: some update or another has turned the short-open-tags feature off.
10:18:41 <elliott_> (That's just a ripoff of the actual site, btw)
10:23:39 <fizzie> The real site seems to be implemamented with the Google App Eggnog. (User-agent: "AppEngine-Google; (+http://code.google.com/appengine; appid: downforeveryoneorjustme)")
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11:18:20 <elliott> Lymee: I think I should just have HashMap<World,HashSet<ChunkCoords>>
11:19:11 <elliott> Lymee: And if a world isn't in the map, we just assume every chunk is hostile.
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12:09:15 <ais523> elliott: <Linux coding standards> Tabs are 8 characters, and thus indentations are also 8 characters. There are heretic movements that try to make indentations 4 (or even 2!) characters deep, and that is akin to trying to define the value of PI to be 3.
12:09:25 <ais523> I'm amused that they disagree with me on style, but agree on the immutability of tab sizes
12:09:52 <elliott> ais523: Yes, obviously I have never read the Linux coding standards before
12:09:52 <Deewiant> Clearly they implicitly accept my indentation level of 3
12:11:14 <ais523> I love the way they wrote PI in uppercase
12:11:16 <ais523> because it's a constant
12:14:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sure, because that's PI spaces.
12:15:31 <elliott> fizzie: Deewiant: ais523: Anyone: Are there restrictions on what you can remove from collections you're iterating over in Java?
12:15:45 <ais523> elliott: IIRC yes, let me look it up
12:15:46 <elliott> I have "for (T x : hashSet) { ... }", and I want to remove x from the hashSet depending on certain conditions.
12:15:46 <Deewiant> You need to use the iterator to remove
12:15:54 <elliott> Deewiant: So no nice for syntax?
12:15:56 <Deewiant> elliott: Use an Iterator, it has a remove method
12:16:02 <Deewiant> elliott: Not that I know of at least
12:16:32 <elliott> if (!worldState.hostileChunks.contains(ChunkCoords.fromLocation(monster.getLocation()))) {
12:16:33 <elliott> if (!worldState.hostileChunks.contains(ChunkCoords.fromLocation(event.getLocation()))) {
12:16:39 <elliott> wow, those are actually the exact same line
12:16:59 <elliott> I was pasting them as two different insanely long ifs :-)
12:17:09 <elliott> Maybe I should define worldState.isInHostileChunk().
12:17:38 <ais523> elliott: yep, just checked, the rule is that you can only remove the element that you're currently on during the iteration, and can only do so via calling the remove method on the iterator
12:17:39 <oerjan> the world is in a hostile, chunky state
12:17:55 <ais523> also, you can't remove the current element more than once without going onto the next element, obviously
12:18:19 <fizzie> Most of the iterators are "fail-fast", in that they (try to) start throwing ConcurrentModificationExceptions if you mangle the collection you're iterating over by any other means than the iterator.
12:19:01 <ais523> fizzie: that's not guaranteed
12:19:16 <ais523> I just thought that the warning would be useful
12:19:31 * elliott is slightly worried that ais523's first reaction was "Why on earth is elliott coding Java???"
12:19:36 <elliott> or maybe it was, just internally only
12:20:08 <ais523> elliott: I saw your code paste before I saw the first statement that implied Java
12:20:08 <ais523> because it took me several seconds to switch to the IRC window
12:20:18 <ais523> and the code paste suggested an obvious context (something Minecraft-related)
12:20:29 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: Deewiant: ais523: Anyone: Are there restrictions on what you can remove from collections you're iterating over in Java?
12:20:29 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: IIRC yes, let me look it up
12:20:32 <elliott> No, you knew it was Java :-P
12:20:36 <elliott> That was before any pastes
12:20:46 <ais523> elliott: aha, that must be the zzo38 reaction
12:20:51 <ais523> in that I didn't look for a context until it became necessary
12:21:10 <ais523> in this channel, my mind didn't make the connection between "asking questions about Java" and "writing Java"
12:21:14 <ais523> not immediately, at least
12:21:24 <elliott> I'm even using Eclipse :-|
12:21:41 <ais523> in fact, it would be quite plausible that you were writing a different language with iterable collections, and wanted to know what Java did so you could do something different
12:21:50 * elliott decides to stare at Eclipse for a few hours until it tells him how many lines of Java he's written today. (This is how you solve problems with Eclipse.)
12:21:56 <elliott> (This is what I have learned.
12:22:35 <ais523> also, Java badly needs a Java-specific IDE, it's too library-dense to easily use otherwise
12:22:35 <ais523> although I generally use NetBeans (because it's what's taught here, and I need to use the technology I'm meant to teach)
12:22:56 <elliott> Deewiant: Didn't have a convenient website last I looked
12:22:59 <elliott> ais523: wow, only 228 lines
12:23:08 <elliott> probably because I had to go through an IDE form just to create a lambda
12:23:25 <ais523> you didn't, you could (and probably should) have used a nested class
12:23:38 <ais523> or does that need a form in Eclipse?
12:23:47 <elliott> I think it can have one, if you want
12:23:51 <elliott> ais523: they're rather long lambdas, anyway
12:23:52 <fizzie> You can just type in code, though.
12:24:02 <elliott> and Java files seem to be divided into two types:
12:24:07 <elliott> - hundreds of lines long, everything in one class
12:24:13 <elliott> - thirty lines long, about five hundred classes
12:24:15 <fizzie> It does have "make a new (inner or not) class" forms though.
12:24:17 <ais523> in NetBeans, you can highlight a statement and then click on the left margin, and choose the option to enclose it in a Runnable
12:24:47 <ais523> elliott: you typically only use one class per file, not counting inner classes
12:24:57 <ais523> some are much longer than others
12:25:20 <elliott> I'm writing "practical", impure, not-very-theoretically-soundly-organised code, in Java, in an object-oriented style (sort of), for a buggy game
12:25:30 <elliott> I think, by my own account, my soul should have vanished in a few hours
12:25:48 <fizzie> elliott: You have become the very thing you fought for! Abyss, gazing back, and so on!
12:25:48 <ais523> e.g. the longest class in Jettyplay is 2122 lines long, many of which are autogenerated
12:26:06 <ais523> fizzie: the first version was funnier
12:26:09 <elliott> Eclipse is actually quite nice, to be honest
12:26:15 <ais523> `addquote <fizzie> elliott: You have become the very thing you fought for!
12:26:16 <elliott> I mean, as nice as a Java IDE can be
12:26:18 <HackEgo> 498) <fizzie> elliott: You have become the very thing you fought for!
12:26:56 <elliott> I do like how builds happen completely automatically, at least
12:26:57 <ais523> the second longest is 2076 lines long, after I deleted half of it (it originally came from someone else's program), but it's mostly a state machine and that's to be expected of state machines
12:27:04 <elliott> and all the errors appear without asking
12:27:11 <ais523> elliott: NetBeans does that too, I imagine all Java IDEs do
12:27:23 <elliott> well, it's always a pain with Emacs
12:27:36 <ais523> not IME, but it depends on what language you're using
12:27:42 <ais523> flymake is incredibly flaky with C, but works very well with Perl
12:29:10 <ais523> probably because C is a language not very conducive to that sort of thing (C++ is even worse)
12:29:53 <elliott> oh, I forgot the last element of the soullessness trifec...n-fecta
12:30:03 <elliott> it's using an "enterprisey" framework :(
12:32:17 <ais523> and Jettyplay isn't, ironically enough given the name
12:32:23 <ais523> (the "e" stands for Enterprisey)
12:32:40 <elliott> at least the enterprisey framework is called "bukkit"
12:32:42 <ais523> I suppose it isn't all that enterprisey really, just overengineered
12:32:46 <elliott> there is some drop of humour left in my new terrible world : (
12:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk
12:33:18 <elliott> dammit, these pigs know they're going to evaporate if they walk too far
12:35:18 <elliott> "Tired of monsters spawning on one or more of your worlds? Don't like the health regeneration that comes with spawn-monsters=false? With NoRegen, you can enjoy monster-free world(s), and still be without the boring health regeneration!"
12:35:20 <elliott> NO THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT I WANT
12:38:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: gesundheit
12:39:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think anyone has ever actually read Finnegan's Wake.
12:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The actual book is probably completely different to every synopsis on the internet.
12:39:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: someone, somewhere, somewhat like zzo probably has.
12:40:01 <ais523> I didn't think you could make a synopsys of it
12:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> What everyone *thinks* it contains is just an aggregate of summaries which has evolved into a completely different story.
12:42:19 <ais523> meanwhile, I saw a story recently about people benchmarking Firefox 8
12:42:30 <ais523> what is up with those version numbers? they're releasing major versions faster than they used to release minor versions
12:42:44 <ais523> so it isn't even a simple minor->major shift
12:42:56 <Deewiant> They changed their release schedule
12:43:02 <Deewiant> One major version every 3 months, IIRC
12:44:13 <ais523> I'm still on the 3 series (with Ubuntu doing security patches)
12:44:14 <fizzie> I think "8" was what they're calling the "unstable", or wasn't it so?
12:44:18 <Deewiant> I remember back when Phoenix 0.1 was A Big New Thing. You know, eight years ago.
12:44:32 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think anyone has ever actually read Finnegan's Wake.
12:44:44 <fizzie> I remember when I got Netscape, and it was a lot fancier than Mosaic.
12:45:02 <fizzie> They're at 5 now and have 6 and 7 on the roadmap, IIRC.
12:48:29 <oerjan> so will they be starting with Firefox 3000 or something equally silly within five years?
12:50:09 <oerjan> "Ok we just made Firefox Busy Beaver. wtf are we going to call the next version?"
12:50:55 <lifthrasiir> after Firefox 5, they will use the Fibonacci numbers so that the version number growth is exponential
12:51:13 <fizzie> 6 comes out in August when 7 moves from AURORA to BETA, and 8 moves from NIGHTLY to AURORA.
12:51:16 <oerjan> "and why are we being overrun by ubuntu lawyers?"
12:52:02 <lifthrasiir> within years we will be able to safely use a floor of a logarithm of the version to identify the version
12:52:03 <fizzie> I think it's supposed to be something like 2-3 months per major version number, so 4-6 major versions per year.
12:52:32 <oerjan> ok scratch that. they make Firefox Graham's Number, and want to do Busy Beaver next but _then_ are overrun by ubuntu lawyers.
12:53:13 <lifthrasiir> oerjan, to be exact, Firefox three arrow three arrow sixty-four point blabla arrow two.
12:53:36 <ais523> I don't get why they'd be overrun by Ubuntu lawyers, is it a pun I'm missing?
12:57:15 <oerjan> oh, they can pass on to transfinite ordinals then
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13:00:08 <oerjan> i'm really not convinced wth is the best nick, _even_ if it's probably an acronym of eir real name
13:04:27 <fizzie> Oh, it's 6 weeks per major version: https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease/Calendar
13:06:32 <fizzie> So Firefox 9 released this year, and Firefox 12 in the nightly branch; and by the end of 2012 they'll release Firefox 17, and have Firefox 20 in development in the nightly branch.
13:07:40 <ais523> what versions will the other major browsers be on by then? in particular, is Firefox's schedule outversioning Chrome?
13:08:06 <elliott> I wonder if Chrome thirteen is out yet
13:08:13 <elliott> I'm on twelve, but I haven't updated in... a few days :-P
13:08:32 <elliott> fizzie: how long until they reach three digits?
13:09:32 <fizzie> A bit less than 11 years.
13:10:14 <oerjan> by october 2012 they will have hit three digits. during the first two weeks of december it will grow to thousands of digits. what happens after that is unpredictable.
13:10:37 <fizzie> I guess it depends which sort of curve you fit in.
13:11:20 <fizzie> Eyeballing the Chrome release history in Wikipedia, it would seem to be about the same speed.
13:11:33 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if version numbering will hit singularity some time
13:11:34 <fizzie> The Firefox Singularity?
13:11:41 <elliott> <oerjan> by october 2012 they will have hit three digits. during the first two weeks of december it will grow to thousands of digits. what happens after that is unpredictable.
13:12:38 <ais523> that doesn't imply singularity
13:12:44 <ais523> it might just be going up at Ackermann speed or whatever
13:12:56 <elliott> ais523: you get the refernce, suerly
13:13:16 <ais523> meh, that's a sufficiently busted reference that I tend to ignore it
13:13:39 <elliott> ais523: it's called a _joke_
13:13:58 <ais523> but it isn't particularly funny
13:14:23 <oerjan> elliott: i'll just have to take the audience i get
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13:16:07 <asiekierka> i'm forced to type from netcat so i was seriousthere
13:16:45 * ais523 sends a ctcp version and waits a minute or so for asiekierka to type the reply
13:17:09 <asiekierka> i don't know how to reply to VERSIONs yet
13:17:11 <ais523> oerjan: I do reply to CTCP VERSIONs when IRCing via netcat
13:17:23 <ais523> asiekierka: NOTICE ais523 :^AVERSION netcat^A
13:17:28 <ais523> where ^A is a literal control-A
13:17:28 <asiekierka> i'm using musl libc, irssi doesn't compile for it, neither does ircii
13:17:47 <asiekierka> i'd be happy to move to anything better than netcat
13:18:00 <asiekierka> i could just get dropbear and SSH into another computer but THAT'S CHEATING
13:18:15 <ais523> why /is/ that SSH impl called dropbear?
13:18:20 <ais523> the name always confused me
13:18:22 <oerjan> asiekierka: you could use zzo38's client >:)
13:18:58 <oerjan> (admittedly it is probably better than netcat)
13:19:01 <asiekierka> not a link to the past, just an http link
13:19:09 <ais523> oerjan: it does the PONGs
13:19:24 <ais523> other than that, it's pretty similar to nc
13:19:28 <oerjan> ais523: i think it also has some completion
13:19:34 <asiekierka> i used bootstrap-linux by pikhq to get into where i'm now
13:19:49 <asiekierka> anything is better than netcat for IRCing
13:19:52 <ais523> a nice thing about Freenode is that you can type anything at all in response to a PING, even a privmsg or whatever, and it accepts it
13:20:04 <ais523> so you don't need to bother about writing perfect PONGs
13:20:10 <ais523> most servers aren't so forgiving
13:20:19 <fizzie> The perfect PONG. Long thought to be just a myth.
13:20:26 <ais523> and it won't even bother to ping you if you're sending a lot
13:20:33 <elliott> <ais523> why /is/ that SSH impl called dropbear?
13:20:44 <elliott> also, what did you do, pikhq_ :(
13:21:09 <ais523> because programs ideally should either a) have names that are descriptive of what they do so you don't have to look them up, or b) have names that are unique enough to search on
13:21:14 <ais523> and "dropbear" doesn't fulfil either requirement
13:21:31 <ais523> (fulfilling both would be ideal, but is typically very difficult)
13:22:04 <elliott> ais523: Find me another piece of software called Dropbear
13:22:14 <oerjan> asiekierka: hm i went to http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/index.php/ but i cannot find a link to his client. anyway, it was more of a joke.
13:22:34 <ais523> elliott: why software? the word comes up in other contexts
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13:22:41 <elliott> asiekierka: do you even have php intsalled
13:23:17 <elliott> ais523: Windows: bad software name; Macintosh: bad software name; Gnome: bad software name
13:23:26 <elliott> ais523: Eclipse: bad software name
13:23:33 <elliott> <any software name ever>: bad software name
13:23:49 <ais523> elliott: Windows is at least vaguely descriptive
13:23:52 <ais523> the others aren't ideal
13:24:08 <ais523> in fact, "Microsoft Windows" is a pretty good name for what it does
13:24:16 <ais523> asiekierka: that's a good name too
13:26:49 <fizzie> I've always just guessed the name is intended to evoke adjectives such as "lean", "fast", "vicious". Haven't seen it documented anywhere.
13:26:57 <fizzie> They do have a mailing list if you want to know.
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13:35:19 <oerjan> SOMEONE FORGOT TO PONG
13:35:38 <elliott> ais523: oh, I've been doing a bad Java thing in my bad Java :<
13:35:55 <elliott> I've been using HashSet as a type on the LHS, just because that's my implementation
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13:37:12 <asiekierka> i had to mod it a bit, though - minor defs.h change + adding u_xxxx
13:37:13 <ais523> ":propelling chess in the 21st century and beyond!"
13:37:17 <ais523> I think it's the colon that amuses me the most about that
13:37:33 <ais523> as if ircII was meant to have its version number automatically parsed by something that used IRC syntax
13:38:06 <ais523> well, it depends on if you're doing anything with it that would require a HashSet in particular
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13:40:50 <fizzie> HashSet<T> doesn't really have any methods that are not specified by Set<E>. Well, except clone().
13:41:12 <fizzie> (But that's from Object.)
13:41:31 <elliott> Loads the configuration file. All errors are thrown away.
13:41:31 <elliott> Saves the configuration to disk. All errors are clobbered.
13:41:53 <fizzie> What does save() return?
13:42:36 <fizzie> I was debating whether to clarify that.
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13:42:48 <fizzie> What does the boolean signify?
13:43:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: But it "clobbers" all the errors.
13:44:06 <elliott> That's the Bukkit YAML configuration processor
13:44:17 <elliott> I can't help shake the feeling that it's not what everybody uses
13:44:18 <Deewiant> That doesn't mean that it won't tell you whether there were any
13:44:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I guess you could argue so. But to me a it's not a real clobbering if you can still tell there was something that got clobbered.
13:45:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: You are, however, correct. "Returns: true if it was successful"
13:46:09 <fizzie> I guess that's the difference between "throwing away" and "clobbering" the errors.
13:46:36 <Deewiant> I don't know, it can be good to leave some kind of evidence of one's clobbering skills
13:46:55 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I guess you could argue so. But to me a it's not a real clobbering if you can still tell there was something that got clobbered.
13:46:56 <HackEgo> 499) <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I guess you could argue so. But to me a it's not a real clobbering if you can still tell there was something that got clobbered.
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14:55:40 <ais523> hmm, does anyone here know where the documentation for the x86 Linux ABI (that is, the userspace to kernel ABI, not the unstable in-kernel one) is in the kernel source tree?
14:55:58 <ais523> the main documentation section just says that it's arch-specific, and I can't find it in the arch documentation sections
14:59:21 <Vorpal> ais523, there is the header with syscall numbers I guess
14:59:29 <ais523> Vorpal: there is, and I'm aware of it
14:59:35 <Vorpal> ais523, not sure where they document which registers to prod and so on
14:59:40 <ais523> but syscall numbers doesn't give things like number/type/order of parameters, or even which registers they're passed in
14:59:49 <Vorpal> exactly what I just said yeah
14:59:51 <ais523> and it's hard enough working out the difference between ax and orig_ax
15:00:03 <Deewiant> The calling convention is standard C
15:00:15 <ais523> (the header in question documents it as "this information is only provided for gdb", which isn't massively useful)
15:00:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, uh. Not exactly? It use pushing various registers then doing a SYSCALL iirc
15:01:02 <Deewiant> I have the x86-64 register convention here if you care
15:01:20 <ais523> even though I'm on a 64-bit system myself
15:01:26 <Vorpal> I have x86-64 ABI docs too here.
15:01:37 <ais523> commercial precompiled Linux binaries tend to be 32-bit, right?
15:01:50 <Vorpal> ais523, depends. I seen both.
15:02:22 <ais523> (this is for the same program that errors out if a process it creates doesn't have PID 2, btw)
15:02:33 <elliott> ais523: what are you trying to do? :-P
15:02:44 <ais523> err, hmm, I was hoping you wouldn't ask that
15:02:57 <ais523> basically, it's a similar idea to the one behind cryopid (which incidentally doesn't work)
15:02:58 <Vorpal> ais523, I think generally you call a function in that high-mapped vdso, which then does syscall, sysenter or interrupt depending on what the processor supports
15:03:03 <elliott> Distribute a commercial precompiled Linux binary that errors out if a process it creates doesn't have PID 2?????
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15:03:31 <ais523> elliott: nah, the idea is that you operate on an existing binary, and try to run it in a completely reproducible fashion, no matter what else is going on in the system
15:03:35 <Vorpal> elliott, good one, pid 2 is always some kernel internal thingy :P
15:03:37 <ais523> so you can rewind it and start again
15:03:44 <ais523> Vorpal: not in my case
15:03:49 <Vorpal> root 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jul07 0:00 [kthreadd]
15:03:51 <elliott> Vorpal: <ais523> (this is for the same program that errors out if a process it creates doesn't have PID 2, btw)
15:03:56 <Vorpal> it is that on all the computers I checked
15:03:59 <ais523> when I tested the code, the process always did have PID 2
15:04:06 <ais523> or think it did, at least
15:04:15 <ais523> the trick is, that nowadays, Linux PIDs have namespaces
15:04:21 <ais523> so you just run it in a different namespace to everything else
15:04:25 <Vorpal> ais523, why would it error out if you don't get PID2
15:04:34 <ais523> because it means something's gone wrong with the reproducibility
15:04:42 <ais523> a lot of programs will notice if you randomly change their PID under them
15:04:55 <ais523> cryopid gets around the problem by, umm, opening /dev/kmem and setting the PID inside the kernel by hand
15:05:02 <Vorpal> ais523, wait a second, each time a program starts it get a different PID usually
15:05:06 <ais523> which is a bad idea for all sorts of reasons, not least that it doesn't check that the PID is already in use
15:05:17 <elliott> <ais523> cryopid gets around the problem by, umm, opening /dev/kmem and setting the PID inside the kernel by hand
15:05:28 <Vorpal> anyway I don't even HAVE a /dev/kmem
15:05:34 <ais523> elliott: I /hope/ it isn't using that code any more, because /dev/kmem no longer exists
15:05:38 <ais523> just /dev/kcore, which is readonly
15:06:03 <ais523> it looks like they were working on a workaround, which intercepts syscalls to getpid and ioctl and changes the PID returned
15:06:17 <ais523> but that seems only really partial, in that a huge number of other things know about PIDs (fcntl, for instance)
15:07:49 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, is cryopid a way to freeze a process? Hm
15:08:00 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, and restart it later
15:08:09 <Vorpal> I think such functionality is built in in the linux kernel nowdays
15:08:20 <Vorpal> used for stuff like suspend/resume, and many other things
15:08:30 <ais523> although when I tried to compile it, it didn't compile, when I fixed the compilation (changing the header files included and the names of registers), it spouted errors, and the resulting program segfaulted
15:08:41 <Vorpal> ais523, but what would it do if the PID in question is already in use?
15:08:46 <ais523> and that doesn't let you freeze a process and then restart it on another machine
15:08:55 <ais523> Vorpal: it'd give it the same PID as the process already in use
15:09:01 <ais523> as far as I can tell, this is not a good idea
15:09:02 <Vorpal> ais523, that sounds dangerous
15:09:17 <ais523> and the syscall to create processes with duplicate PIDs was removed a while ago (and restricted to process 0 before that, and restricted to root before that)
15:10:01 <Vorpal> ais523, there is no PID 0 as far as I can tell?
15:10:10 <ais523> If CLONE_PID is set, the child process is created with the same process ID as the calling process. This is good for hacking the system, but otherwise of not much use. Since 2.3.21 this flag can be specified only by the system boot process (PID 0). It disappeared in Linux 2.5.16.
15:10:15 <ais523> I don't think PID 0 appears in /proc
15:10:25 <Vorpal> ais523, what is PID 0 supposed to be? Kernel itself?
15:10:26 <ais523> nor do I think that signalling it would do anything particularly sane
15:10:45 <ais523> oh, right, you can't signal it
15:10:51 <Lymee> PID 0 is init, isn't it?
15:10:55 <ais523> if you give an argument of 0 to kill, you kill yourself
15:10:58 <Vorpal> Lymee, no that is PID 1
15:11:01 <ais523> or fakeinit, in my case
15:11:11 <Lymee> Wait, then what's 0?
15:11:17 <ais523> (as far as I can tell, all init actually has to do is spawn a process, then call wait in a loop)
15:11:21 <Lymee> System boot process?
15:11:28 <ais523> according to that man page, yes
15:11:42 <Lymee> Something pre-init?
15:12:15 <Vorpal> from what I remember the system executes /sbin/init (or if an initramfs some other file) which at the end execs the real /sbin/init
15:12:25 <Vorpal> so I have no idea what pid 0 could be yeah
15:13:09 <ais523> hmm, I tried a search engine, it didn't seem to know
15:13:16 <ais523> I suppose it might be possible to ask in #linux or wherever
15:13:29 <Vorpal> ais523, ##linux is largely useless...
15:13:37 <Vorpal> I can say that from my own experience
15:13:41 <ais523> Vorpal: what's it about?
15:13:45 <ais523> as in, actual topic, not notional topic
15:13:52 <Vorpal> ais523, newbies asking simple questions mostly
15:14:01 <Vorpal> not at all kernel related
15:14:15 <ais523> hmm, is there a channel for the kernel in particular?
15:14:23 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't know of one, no
15:14:26 <ais523> I suppose there's kernelnewbies, which isn't on Freenode
15:14:39 <ais523> and I've forgotten which server it is on
15:14:40 <Vorpal> ais523, hm they have an irc channel? Good website though.
15:14:50 <elliott> ais523: Observation: Java is a language designed so that the majority of your variables have the exact same name as their type (or some trivial translation, e.g. List<T> -> Ts)
15:15:12 <elliott> ais523: Observation II: If you removed the names from Java and just used the types, that would be one really weird language
15:15:19 <ais523> elliott: nah, I often use types more than once
15:15:31 <elliott> ais523: I didn't say it was universal :P
15:15:34 <oklopol> well that's what natural language does all the time
15:15:42 <elliott> I'm just saying that it's surprisingly ubiquitous in Java.
15:16:00 <oklopol> which is why i've been thinking about having that in a lang
15:16:07 <elliott> it would be fun if you couldn't have (A,A) because you'd have no way to distinguish the two As
15:16:12 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe because java has 1) classes 2) lots of container types?
15:16:13 <elliott> so you'd have to find another way to construct A
15:16:20 <ais523> elliott: I think I feel an esolang coming on
15:16:28 <elliott> like, if you wanted a pair of two integers
15:16:34 <elliott> you'd have to come up with two underlying representations
15:16:36 <elliott> so that they have different types
15:16:41 <elliott> so that you could distinguish them
15:17:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: nah, what kind of esolang would it be if it was that easy to circumvent?
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15:17:16 <oklopol> haha if you had two types that have essentially the same structure, the compiler would complain that you have two identical types
15:17:43 <elliott> oklopol: "this is bits, and also this is bits, and also everything is bits. try replacing your program with just one bit."
15:18:05 <Taneb> Countdown has the letters for Linux
15:18:14 <Vorpal> elliott, hrrm... for signed integers I can only think of three representations... sign-magnitude, one-complement, two-complement
15:18:24 <Vorpal> so you can have at most three signed integers in your program?
15:18:50 <ais523> although that's a unary variant
15:18:57 <elliott> <elliott> <vorpal> whats an (N,N)
15:19:01 <Vorpal> ais523, gray-code for signed? My brain hurts
15:19:13 <ais523> Vorpal: it wraps round just like 2's-complement does
15:19:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I know what a pair is.
15:19:27 <Taneb> Signed integers can also have Base -2 inegers
15:19:38 <Vorpal> hm does "three-complement" even make sense?
15:19:38 <ais523> Taneb: good point, that's a reasonable representation
15:19:43 <ais523> Vorpal: only in base 3
15:20:03 <ais523> the terms are generally base-complement and base-minus-one-complement
15:20:10 <ais523> which are silly names really, they should be more consistent
15:20:15 <ais523> hmm, I suppose that means it makes sense in base 4 too
15:20:25 <Vorpal> ais523, what about one-complement in base 3?
15:21:23 <Gregor> http://xkcd.com/923/ <-- OK, I have to admit, this XKCD is legit funny :P
15:21:38 <oklopol> i think that's the worst one ever
15:22:07 <ais523> Gregor: I liked it too
15:22:09 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I know what a pair is.
15:22:15 <Taneb> I don't get that XKCD
15:22:37 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style
15:22:48 <ais523> you don't need to know who they are to get the joke, though
15:23:02 <elliott> ais523: in that, the joke is based around the stickler-ness
15:23:02 <ais523> I didn't, and I got it
15:23:10 <ais523> it's because the comic itself makes them out to be sticklers
15:23:19 <ais523> I thought they were fictional sticklers from it, and it still works
15:23:21 <elliott> it's still basically reference humour though
15:23:33 <elliott> ais523: you can't seriously have expected an xkcd without a reference
15:23:44 <ais523> elliott: xkcd is full of references?
15:23:58 <Taneb> I still have no idea who Ron Paul
15:23:59 <Gregor> You don't need to know who they are to get the joke ...
15:24:24 <Gregor> I mean, you need to understand that it's a prescriptivist English style manual, but everything else you can get from there.
15:24:26 <elliott> Taneb: he's the president of australia
15:24:29 <ais523> Taneb: American politician, tends to be the third most popular (and thus way behind the Democratic and Republican candidates for President)
15:24:39 <elliott> ais523: third most popular???
15:24:47 <ais523> elliott: out of the people running, I mean
15:24:50 <elliott> (and you realise Ron Paul is Republican?)
15:25:10 <ais523> most people don't bother to run against their own party when they lose the primary
15:25:25 <elliott> I'm incredibly sceptical of any statistics saying that Ron Paul is the third-most popular candidate
15:25:43 <Gregor> Ron Paul is on the republican /ticket/, he's a libertarian.
15:25:45 <elliott> Unless the sample is "reddit just before Obama looked like he was going to win".
15:25:50 <ais523> well, third = statistical fluctuation in the US
15:26:12 <ais523> I didn't actually know what his policies were, because his fans never seem to say
15:26:47 <ais523> actually, that's true of all sides in American politics, I think
15:26:53 <ais523> both the really big ones and the really little ones
15:27:00 <ais523> their favourite politicians are right, regardless of what they believe
15:27:16 <oklopol> i liked http://xkcd.com/920/ way more than that penis joke
15:27:35 <elliott> Java really needs shorthand for "if (x instanceof T) { T y = (T) x; ... } else { ... }"
15:27:36 <Taneb> There's a penis joke in that?
15:27:39 <oklopol> don't recall seeing anyone make that point
15:27:51 <elliott> "cast (x as T y) { ... } else { ... }", say
15:28:18 <elliott> Taneb: as you can see, we are always on-topic.
15:28:21 <ais523> hmm, 920 is an interesting observation that isn't particularly funny, just like most of XKCD
15:28:22 <Gregor> oklopol: But is anything ever really penis enough?
15:28:29 <Vorpal> elliott, is java statically or dynamically typed? Or some mix?
15:28:36 <Gregor> ais523: It isn't particularly interesting either.
15:28:37 <ais523> reading XKCD for the observations can be interesting, if not funny
15:28:40 <oklopol> ais523: interesting observation = definition of funny
15:28:48 <Lymee> Vorpal, statically.
15:28:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: ... static. Having casts does not make you dynamically typed :P
15:28:55 <elliott> I wonder if I could get Eclipse to automatically add imports when there's only one option... rather than making me tell it to
15:29:07 <elliott> Man, why am I even coding Java.
15:29:11 <fizzie> elliott: "try { T y = (T) x; ...; } catch (ClassCastException) { ... }" :p
15:29:24 <elliott> fizzie: That doesn't handle NullPointerExceptions :)
15:29:24 <ais523> oklopol: did you know that children of fighter pilots of a particular nationality (was it Danish?) are 80% girls?
15:29:34 <elliott> fizzie: And also, catches ClassCastExceptions in the "...".
15:29:36 * ais523 waits for hilarious laughter
15:29:37 <fizzie> elliott: catch (Throwable) { ... }
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15:30:11 <fizzie> elliott: ON ERROR RESUME NEXT
15:30:13 <ais523> I, umm, invoke Sturgeon's Law
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15:32:01 <elliott> How is this still less than three hundred lines :-/
15:32:07 <oklopol> ais523: okay interesting observation + puzzle
15:32:24 <ais523> which one was Poe's again?
15:32:26 <oklopol> i suppose xkcd usually lacks the latter, just like your joke.
15:33:01 <ais523> wait, that's the one I thought was Sturgeon's Law
15:33:05 <Taneb> Poe's was about parodies
15:33:12 * ais523 looks up sturgeon's law
15:33:19 <ais523> wow, that was relevant by mistake
15:34:08 <oklopol> so here's the joke version: "if i had to fuck a random person in the ass i'd make sure the probability measure is heavy on children of danish fighter pilots!"
15:34:59 <ais523> that is still not funny
15:35:05 <ais523> except in banal bizarreness
15:35:16 <oklopol> actually it's very funny, although not because i made it a puzzle
15:35:37 <oklopol> but because of the "accidental" pedophilia
15:35:41 <ais523> I am laughing in real life right now, but not because what you said was actually funny
15:35:49 <ais523> more at the conversation in general
15:35:59 <Taneb> Because a ninja is tickling you?
15:36:18 <ais523> although if a ninja were involved, I'm not convinced I'd be able to tell
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15:36:54 <elliott> <oklopol> so here's the joke version: "if i had to fuck a random person in the ass i'd make sure the probability measure is heavy on children of danish fighter pilots!"
15:36:54 <elliott> <ais523> that is still not funny
15:36:59 <elliott> although i'm not sure why...
15:37:10 <oklopol> i thought it was some of my best work this week
15:37:15 <ais523> I don't think it's because of the "joke", which isn't funny, but because of the conversation as a whole, which is
15:37:19 <oklopol> perhaps even better than my smileys yesterday
15:37:26 <elliott> oklopol: you should do a standup show, thanks
15:37:36 <Taneb> Explaining recursion is tricky...
15:37:44 <elliott> Taneb: try explaining recursion
15:37:58 <oklopol> hey! i thought really hard about algorithmically jokifying that and still adding a double entendre
15:38:38 <oklopol> hey! i had to think really hard with my brain to manage to algorithmically jokify that and still adding a double entendre
15:38:46 <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
15:39:26 <ais523> Taneb: wait, do you teach programming too?
15:39:31 <ais523> oklopol: stop masturbating
15:39:39 <oklopol> elliott: my standup comedy show is here
15:40:01 <Taneb> If I was professional, I wouldn't be on IRC at the same time
15:40:07 <ais523> and the second was, umm, you realising that the first was self-embarassing?
15:40:17 <ais523> second line, that is, not second joke
15:40:36 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
15:40:37 <HackEgo> 500) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
15:40:38 <oklopol> you did get my fuck joke right
15:40:38 <ais523> elliott: it's an improvement over /parting to protect me from a lethal facepalm
15:41:00 <ais523> which I did recently (it involved the usual suspect)
15:41:01 <elliott> ais523: I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA ABOUT WHICH EVENT YOU COULD POSSIBLY BE REFERRING TO.
15:41:11 <ais523> elliott: good, don't read recent logs, I doubt you'll survive
15:41:17 <oklopol> SEE I CURSED BY SAYING FUCK AND THEN I SAID FUCK AGAIN SO I *RE*CURSED
15:41:18 <elliott> ais523: I DEFINITELY DIDN'T
15:41:19 <elliott> is this channel usually so confusing btw, or am i just tired
15:41:31 <ais523> oklopol: oh, I was thinking of an entirely different joke
15:41:43 <ais523> elliott: it isn't, it's more confusing than usual today
15:41:49 <oklopol> ais523: well i'm sure mine was better
15:41:58 <elliott> 15:45:05: <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse.
15:41:59 <elliott> wow, i actually missed this line
15:42:03 <elliott> `addquote <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse.
15:42:04 <HackEgo> 501) <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse.
15:42:04 <oklopol> elliott: do like me and just read your own lines?
15:42:16 <elliott> oklopol: i dunno what you said but it was probably stupid
15:43:07 <oklopol> what did the child of a danish pilot say to his dad?
15:43:14 <oklopol> he said why do i have so many sisters?
15:43:35 <ais523> gah, if I've started a meme and got the wrong country, I'll be annoyed
15:43:50 <oklopol> ^ he also said that because his dad was not a very good pilot
15:43:51 <Taneb> "Kan jeg have en pony?"
15:43:53 <ais523> also, I notice you implicitly assumed the fighter pilot was male
15:44:33 <oklopol> i just assumed that's something you ask your own gender parent
15:44:51 <ais523> I failed to parse the sentence as it was bizarre enough as it is
15:45:23 <oklopol> well not everyone can be a child of a danish pilot in linguistics.
15:46:03 <Taneb> Right, I've succeeded in explaining the return function
15:46:17 <ais523> return isn't a function
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15:46:24 <ais523> nor can it be meaningfully written as one, except in INTERCAL
15:46:31 <ais523> (which allows you to return from functions you aren't in)
15:46:44 <ais523> or it's probably possible in Perl too
15:47:16 <ais523> because all sorts of absurd things are possible in Perl
15:47:29 <fizzie> GCC __builtin_return() is technically called a "function".
15:47:44 <oklopol> BUT IS IT A MATHEMATICAL FUNCTION?!?!?!?!?!?
15:47:59 <ais523> wait, there's a __builtin_return()?
15:48:05 <ais523> that doesn't seem to fit the scheme of the other builtins
15:48:13 <fizzie> Yes. It returns a __builtin_apply-constructed value from the containing function.
15:48:21 <fizzie> See the "constructing calls" section of the manual.
15:49:05 <fizzie> "Using the built-in functions described below, you can record the arguments a function received, and call another function with the same arguments, without knowing the number or types of the arguments."
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15:49:29 <fizzie> ... "However, these built-in functions may interact badly with some sophisticated features or other extensions of the language. It is, therefore, not recommended to use them outside very simple functions acting as mere forwarders for their arguments."
15:49:47 <ais523> I can't think of an application offhand
15:50:22 <fizzie> Given a generic function pointer, it may be possible to construct another function that, say, logs something to a log and then "forwards" the call.
15:50:32 <fizzie> Without knowing the type of the function.
15:50:33 <ais523> hmm, that was an unintentional pun
15:51:18 <oklopol> you mean your application thingie
15:51:43 <fizzie> You could also use __builtin_return_address(1) to get the address to where your latest caller should return, but there's no portable way of actually doing a multi-level return there.
15:52:34 <ais523> oklopol: thanks for the correction
15:52:59 <oklopol> hey i have a good one: why were the child of a pilot and the danish child both women?
15:53:06 <ais523> fizzie: can't you get your own return address, then overwrite it?
15:53:36 <fizzie> ais523: Not portably, I don't think; and in any case that'd probably leave the stack somewhat messed up, depending on the calling convention of course.
15:53:39 <oklopol> because they were the same child :D
15:54:10 <ais523> it'd return correctly, but not set up the stack for the next return
15:54:27 <oklopol> ais523: i think you have discovered the funniest fact in the world
15:55:24 <fizzie> There's another built-in to get frame pointers, and if you know the calling convention it might be possible to do some sort of manual stack unwinding. Though it's not really "C" at that point any more.
15:55:57 <ais523> oh, I remember why I know those builtins
15:56:02 <ais523> it's because of gcc-bf, I had to actually implement them
15:56:25 <ais523> I was looking into a BF backend for llvm, but it makes all sorts of frustrating assumptions
15:56:51 <ais523> like all its primitive operations either existing on the system it targets, or being implemented in terms of other llvm primitives that do exist
15:58:44 <ais523> gcc is better, in that it doesn't deliberately make any assumptions that contradict the way that BF does
15:58:54 <ais523> although it effectively does as the codepaths for, say, 8-bit moves not existing don't work properly
16:03:09 <fizzie> ais523: Manipulating the return stack could let you define a RETURN "function" (well, word), but again not portably (you're not supposed to touch return stack values you didn't put there) and it wouldn't work properly when called from inside another control-flow construct that used the return stack.
16:03:24 <fizzie> Er, I forgot to mention "in FORTH" in there anywhere.
16:03:42 <ais523> you do functions by hand in FORTH, don't you?
16:03:49 <ais523> hmm, I suppose that would let you have two independent call stacks
16:04:00 <ais523> and that might even be useful, perhaps? I'm not sure
16:05:31 <fizzie> Many cooperative-multitasking systems in FORTHs are based on having multiple sets of control-flow/data stacks (for each stack).
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16:06:24 <fizzie> Most of the control-flow stack manipulations are not portable in the ANS Forth sense.
16:06:37 <fizzie> "The control-flow stack may, but need not, physically exist in an implementation. If it does exist, it may be, but need not be, implemented using the data stack. The format of the control-flow stack is implementation defined."
16:07:23 <fizzie> Portably you can mostly just use it for storing temporary data values when not crossing control-flow-structure nesting depth.
16:17:21 <Taneb> Here's an on-topic idea: Queue data structure with fast track passes
16:24:03 <oklopol> i apologize the cheating but that was just too good to pass
16:24:07 <ais523> oklopol: that last one is execllent
16:24:44 <oklopol> although as a general rule i don't use proper names or acronyms because it makes palindroming kind of trivial
16:25:13 <oklopol> at least in finnish, i haven't done much in english since it seems pointless in languages where reversed text isn't pronounced reversed
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16:27:11 <ais523> [17:25] <-- elliott has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [17:26] <oklopol> yay! [17:26] --> elliott has joined this channel (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott).
16:28:41 <oklopol> so, ol' git felt a rat left igloos
16:29:11 <oklopol> also english has way too much of that gh and sh stuff
16:29:31 <oklopol> i mean "the" is probably just there to annoy palindromists
16:30:08 <oklopol> luckily everything is a verb in english
16:32:04 <oklopol> see palindrome 'n' an emo r'd nil apees.
16:32:11 <oklopol> (an apee is someone being aped)
16:32:23 <oklopol> see: palindrome 'n' an emo r'd nil apees.
16:32:36 <oklopol> r'ing is when you... well whatever
16:34:43 <oklopol> seven a mom. o? hey bye homo man! eves :)
16:35:14 <oklopol> i have no idea what "seven a mom" was meant to imply
16:35:31 <oklopol> but the rest is okay i suppose
16:35:36 <oklopol> why won't anyone play with me :(
16:35:58 <oklopol> maybe we could do math instead?
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16:36:30 <oklopol> i generalized my characterization as follows: actually essentially the same thing characterizes all products of CA such that G^n = G for some n!=1
16:36:39 <oklopol> and on arbitrary sofic shifts if i'm not mistaken
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16:37:11 <oklopol> sofic shifts of course being the CA images of SFT's which are subshifts obtained by using a finite set of forbidden blocks
16:37:33 <oklopol> hi Taneb, do you wanna do palindromes or math?
16:37:47 <Taneb> I'm going to do math.
16:37:57 <Taneb> I'm no good at palindromes
16:38:09 <oklopol> me neither, as recently proven
16:38:38 <oklopol> you would never say "seven a mom"
16:39:05 <Taneb> I would say "seven a mum"
16:39:24 <Taneb> Heck, I may even say "seven a mam" 'cos I'm Northern
16:39:42 <oklopol> well yeah but you are not a homu man, you are a homo man
16:40:01 <oklopol> so seven a mum would make no sense
16:40:21 <oklopol> but maybe i could "home u man"! do you ever say "muem"?
16:41:39 <fizzie> oklopol: Eat, emit! Ho, bomb-mob. Oh, time tea?
16:42:03 <oklopol> Taneb: thank you, now i just need to fix the small hpm problem
16:42:13 <oklopol> fizzie: nice, can you also make a palindrome?
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16:42:57 <oklopol> also i'm not really following the story :D
16:43:27 <oklopol> "lion oil" was just awesome
16:44:07 <Taneb> E, esoteric, ire to see.
16:44:33 <Taneb> So, is there an annoying esoteric programming language called "E"?
16:44:45 <oklopol> Taneb: there certainly is a language called that
16:45:37 <Taneb> But it's conventionaaaaal!
16:47:24 <fizzie> Do now that it... naw, it! I want it! Ah, two nod.
16:48:00 <elliott> the capability-based E is hardly conventional, though
16:48:08 <oklopol> fizzie: and no grammatical errors either!
16:48:13 <elliott> http://strlen.com/amiga-e ;; Wouter's is rather more conventional :D
16:50:08 <oklopol> traditional? a no-IT iDart!
16:50:34 <oklopol> sry couldn't make conventional work
16:51:09 <Taneb> Flow ebb Malbolge, eg., lob lamb be wolf
16:52:25 <Taneb> eg. means for example
16:53:18 <fizzie> Isn't that "e.g." CONVENTIONALLY?
16:53:49 <oklopol> i thought you spelled it wrong so i checked it, and the dictionary disagreed with your spelling so i decided eg actually did not mean for example
16:55:32 <oklopol> i suppose "flow ebb" is like you telling malbolge to be easier to write?
16:55:55 <Taneb> Or to understand, like the tides
16:55:56 <oklopol> but then you say "stop being a lamb, be a wolf instead", are sheep hard to write?
16:56:27 <Taneb> Lamb has a silent lette
16:56:40 <Taneb> Sheep is the same in the plural
16:57:01 <oklopol> i don't think i'm ever making another palindrome
16:58:02 <Taneb> SS eh? Come on, no emo chess.
16:58:26 <oklopol> okay i'm not telling you what my characterization is
16:58:27 <Taneb> SS eh being my lack of understanding is like a ship.
16:58:30 <oklopol> you'd just go like lolol triv
16:58:54 <Taneb> I have no idea what's going on
16:58:59 <Taneb> I'm just writing palindromes
16:59:46 <oklopol> i thought you meant "oh you're a member of the SS" and then compared killing jews to emo chess
17:00:06 <oklopol> they have many similarities
17:00:33 <Taneb> I just want to say that the Nazis killed more people than Jews
17:01:28 <Taneb> Just everyone only remembers the jews
17:01:37 <Taneb> Yeah, it was mainly Jews.
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17:02:17 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: nothing wrong with a bit of emo chess humor, elliott does it all the time as well.
17:02:17 <Taneb> That was the communists
17:02:27 <Taneb> Who killed that clowwn
17:03:52 <oklopol> i'm not giving you another one
17:04:28 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The clown was gay.
17:05:03 <Gregor> That must have been one complicated badge they made him wear ...
17:08:28 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:09:41 <Gregor> Blackjack and hookers.
17:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, WP says they just stuck all the badges one below the other.
17:10:05 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, I thought there were cases where they layered :(
17:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, yeah, Jews had the coloured inverted triangle over a yellow one.
17:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> So I guess it'd be a purple triangle above a pink triangle above a brown triangle.
17:12:30 <oklopol> i suppose someone with that many triangles stacked on top of each other is certainly a "-gon"er
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17:21:53 <oklopol> wow i really need to sleep
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19:11:42 <Gregor> lulululul Star Trek: TAS is so cartoonish X-D
19:12:27 <olsner> it is, after all, the animated series
19:13:18 <Gregor> That doesn't mean it has to be cartoonish per se :P
19:15:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:17:24 <olsner> it doesn't? is cartoon a specific category of animation?
19:18:07 <olsner> elliott: well, if it is a cartoon, of course it's cartoonish
19:18:24 <elliott> `addquote * Sgeo is risking massive forest fires <Sgeo> The bacon is worth it
19:18:25 <HackEgo> 502) * Sgeo is risking massive forest fires <Sgeo> The bacon is worth it
19:18:46 <HackEgo> 501) <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse.
19:19:33 <HackEgo> 500) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
19:19:39 <HackEgo> 499) <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I guess you could argue so. But to me a it's not a real clobbering if you can still tell there was something that got clobbered.
19:19:49 <HackEgo> 498) <fizzie> elliott: You have become the very thing you fought for!
19:19:56 <HackEgo> 497) <fungot> elliott: i have yet to demonstrate that the sml community has less productive power than the real chunk of meat.
19:20:30 <olsner> ok, caught up with the added quotes now, carry on
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19:39:59 <oerjan> <Taneb> I invoke Godwin's
19:40:08 <oerjan> i say someone fit in here rather quickly
19:41:35 <olsner> Godwin's what? His theremin playing cat?
19:43:11 <oerjan> i take it you did nazi it coming.
19:44:23 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA ABOUT WHICH EVENT YOU COULD POSSIBLY BE REFERRING TO.
19:44:40 <oerjan> which is presumably why you absolutely didn't lampshade it in privmsg
19:45:54 <elliott> How do you state an actual negative with these towers
19:45:54 <oerjan> NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
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19:52:58 <oerjan> <Taneb> Heck, I may even say "seven a mam" 'cos I'm Northern
19:53:16 <oerjan> by some freak coincidence taneb is elliott's next door neighbor
19:58:51 <olsner> hehe, read "freak accident" there ... something like a teleporter malfunction that moved his entire home and made him elliott's neighbor
19:59:16 <oerjan> well i didn't specify _how_ freaky
20:00:42 <olsner> well, *coincidence* would be "... it just so happens that taneb's selected target coordinates made him elliott's neighbor"
20:01:07 -!- kwertii has joined.
20:01:10 <olsner> I think freak accidents are generally more freaky than freak coincidences
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20:33:20 <oerjan> Auf Wiedersehen! Goodbye!
20:33:44 <oerjan> wait you mean we are _not_ doing sound of music?
20:34:20 <olsner> well, I think we got the lyrics wrong, also I don't know the lyrics
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21:04:13 <oerjan> that's what they all say
21:05:44 <olsner> oerjan: no, the last one just said hi
21:08:03 <oerjan> that's just the polish version duh
21:08:28 <olsner> no, the polish version is an indecipherable sequence of consonants
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21:09:39 <olsner> some combination of sz, cz, rz, s, c, ś, ź and/or ć, iirc
21:10:29 <oerjan> `translatefromto en pl Hi
21:10:34 <oerjan> `translatefromto en pl Hello
21:10:48 <oerjan> `translatefromto en no Does this work at all any more?
21:12:24 <oerjan> `translate Fru Ibsens ripsbusker og andre buskvekster
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21:14:30 <olsner> oerjan: why the sudden interest in mrs ibsen's bush?
21:16:47 <oerjan> i am merely investigating regarding the possibility of translating norwegian tongue-twisters
21:17:33 <olsner> can't hold a candle to sex laxar i en laxask
21:17:49 -!- asiekierkaDS has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:18:15 <oerjan> nobody asked for lax sex
21:19:24 <olsner> google translate renders that as "six salmon in a laxask"
21:19:51 <olsner> btw, I love how "wrong" is pronounced "fail" in norwegian
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21:22:14 <Gregor> To power cycle your modem:
21:22:14 <Gregor> 1. Shut down your computer
21:22:14 <Gregor> Comcast: So much fail :P
21:22:25 <oerjan> apparently, a box for keeping salmon in
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21:22:55 <oerjan> seks laks i en lakseske
21:23:04 <zzo38> Someone showed me some article including mathematics and a code for recognizing shapes by converting the outline to a graph that stays the same regardless of orientation or scale.
21:23:12 <olsner> (no I don't know if anyone in sweden actually has boxes like that)
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21:25:02 <oerjan> olsner: it's probably popular among seasick sailors and their nurses
21:25:07 <zzo38> My brother's character is doppelganger but have not decided the class
21:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <zzo38> Someone showed me some article including mathematics and a code for recognizing shapes by converting the outline to a graph that stays the same regardless of orientation or scale.
21:25:54 <Phantom_Hoover> This is presumably the layman's definition of graph, not an actual graph graph.
21:25:59 <olsner> oerjan: probably... I don't know any nurses or sailors though
21:26:41 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
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21:28:25 <olsner> so, "converting the outline into a pretty picture" is what it means?
21:29:17 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> This is presumably the layman's definition of graph, not an actual graph graph.
21:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> And then moving it about a b— wait, you can't have a graph that's the same regardless of orientation or scale.
21:30:08 <elliott> i would presume it means a graph graph
21:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Graphs look the same regardless of orientation and scale by definition.
21:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Orientation and scale don't even make sense with regards to them.
21:44:20 <elliott> [2011-06-25] $-10.67 = Prorated refund for rutian - 256 slice
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21:49:36 <zzo38> If self-modifying code is allowed, you can possibly store some variables in the place of the immediate (or indirect, for pointer variables) operand to instructions, or boolean variables changing between JMP JZ JNZ if it is a condition with multiple parts. Can any platform-independent compiler do this?
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22:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "For other examples of the appearance of the Golden Ratio in Nature, the growth of the Nautilus shell is governed by the Golden Ratio,"
22:06:30 <Phantom_Hoover> A piece on abuse of the golden ratio abuses the golden ratio.
22:07:35 <oerjan> a missed golden opportunity
22:12:47 <Taneb> I've just had an awful idea for an esoteric programming language
22:14:14 <Taneb> The program is a lambda calculus thing
22:14:31 <Taneb> It is then run as a church numeral
22:14:53 <Taneb> And the result is taken as a base 256 number and converted into ASCII and outputted
22:15:04 <Taneb> If any of that makes sense
22:15:27 <oerjan> well since that's how a part of lazy-k already works iirc...
22:16:34 <Taneb> Not quite what I was going for
22:16:53 <elliott> well, lazy k + abstraction eliminator :P
22:17:01 <elliott> to go from lambda-calculus → SKI
22:17:12 <Taneb> I have no idea what SKI is about
22:19:49 <elliott> Taneb: just predefined combinators:
22:20:09 <elliott> and you just compose your programs out of those + application
22:20:40 <elliott> (I is equivalent to SKK and SKS, and so is technically superfluous) (note: application is left associative, i.e. SKK = (SK)K)
22:23:05 <Taneb> So, it's equivalent to Lambda Calculus?
22:23:44 <elliott> yes, but then so are brainfuck, and underload :)
22:23:51 <Gregor> <lifechamp> how do i create a var params for function f (params) { g1(key); g2(params[key]) } // Dear #esotericers, I challenge you to figure out wtf this means.
22:23:56 <elliott> there's a simpler way to specify reduction of SKI terms, but that's the definition in terms of the lambda calculus
22:24:18 <elliott> Gregor: They want variadic keyword arguments.
22:24:27 <elliott> Gregor: i.e. they want to be able to call f(a:b, c:d)
22:24:30 <elliott> and iterate through params
22:24:53 <elliott> Gregor: a la python's TWO ASTERISKS kwargs
22:25:17 <elliott> oh, there's my new band name
22:25:32 <oerjan> !unlambda ` ```sii ```sii ``s``s`ks``s`kkii .* i
22:26:05 <Gregor> elliott: TIME TO FIND OUT
22:26:16 <Gregor> <Gregor> lifechamp: On behalf of the rest of ##javascript , may I say "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?"
22:26:50 <oerjan> !unlambda `` ```sii ```sii ``s``s`ks``s`kkii .* i
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22:29:17 <oerjan> Taneb: unlambda is the first and most famous SKI esolang
22:30:06 <oerjan> it's not lazy though. in fact it has continuations and callcc
22:32:08 <oerjan> it was probably also the first _functional_ esolang.
22:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, why, is his erotic elf fanfiction just too good to hate him?
22:35:33 <elliott> i forget who mentioned it but you can hardly "find" something linked directly on someone's webpage :P
22:35:39 <elliott> anyway this is inane you're frightening the guests.
22:35:59 <elliott> PH has everything figured out.
22:36:05 <oerjan> elliott: um sure you can, when it's something other than you were looking for...
22:36:12 <Phantom_Hoover> You were looking for gay erotic elf fanfiction and you found out that this guy Madore also had this esolang thing.
22:36:24 <HackEgo> 401) [on Sgeo's karaoke] <Phantom_Hoover> That is the thing that made me into a gay vampire.
22:38:01 <oerjan> well madore is a creep anyway, never answered any of my emails.
22:44:33 <Taneb> Good evening, my further East than me addresser
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23:23:58 -!- GuestIceKovu has changed nick to Slereah.
23:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm just imagining this nondescript guy in the corner of a bar suddenly throwing off his cloak and exclaiming "it is I, Slereah!"
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23:40:19 * oerjan is now reminded of 'allo 'allo
23:40:52 <oerjan> except leclerc never managed to look nondescript
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23:57:17 <oklopol> "<oerjan> by some freak coincidence taneb is elliott's next door neighbor" <<< a neighbor of mine was on #proglangdesign some years ago, a channel of about 6 people at that time
23:57:39 <oklopol> not next door neighbor but less than 100m
23:59:05 <oklopol> "<oerjan> wait you mean we are _not_ doing sound of music?" <<< one more family guy joke is ruined for me by changing it from randomness to reference :(