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00:17:51 <zzo38> I have now made approximately one third of the DVI optimizer program.
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01:47:22 <zzo38> I found list of spells of D&D game including "Explosive Familiar" it makes the caster's familiar explosive, and "Feign Invisibility" which causes others to believe the caster is invisible even though they can clearly see the caster, they must think they can see him somehow even if he is invisible.
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02:43:18 <zzo38> Do you know Double Fanucci?
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03:40:55 <itidus20> zzo, sort of like how stage hypnosis is supposed to work eh.
03:42:10 <itidus20> i've seen an [obviously staged] video of a guy who hypnotized a woman to think he was invisible and then he would tickle her with a feather and make her look up with confusion
03:42:45 <quintopia> zzo38: do you know any good math games?
03:43:00 <itidus20> but i am trying to put such bizzare fetishes behind me.
03:43:22 <itidus20> it might not have been youtube :-? i forget
03:44:17 <itidus20> and there is that book whose name i am not sure of which apparently has this word fnord which the citizens have been conditioned to block out
03:44:32 <itidus20> instilling fear in them because it is present in their texts even though they cannot conciously see it
03:46:59 <itidus20> as far as I know, the actual experience of such things is a deep form of submission whereby you let someone force you to fake it till you make it
03:47:21 <oerjan> fungot: do you know anything about this?
03:47:22 <fungot> oerjan: computergram via first! peter norton, founder of peter norton, founder of peter norton, founder of peter norton, founder of peter norton, founder of peter deutsch and warren teitelman ( all the major problems, consider that " if the translators of the
03:47:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
03:47:35 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
03:47:49 <oerjan> fungot: could you elaborate on that?
03:47:50 <fungot> oerjan: 1-based would be confusing? i hope i someday understand call/ cc will restore the stack and the registers.
03:48:04 <oerjan> fungot, you disappoint me.
03:48:04 <fungot> oerjan: i'm just curious if he had his student do it :)
03:49:00 <oerjan> something is wrong, i cannot see fungot's fnords. oh wait...
03:49:01 <fungot> oerjan: yes... roots are bad...
03:49:37 <Sgeo_> So, who has the mysterious libc.so?
03:50:05 <itidus20> it was after a girl in a chatroom started actually doing this to me that I knew I had to leave her.
03:51:54 <oerjan> Sgeo_: some guy called Error: Malformed requestDomain Name
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04:07:39 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know a lot of math games
04:07:54 <zzo38> Although there are some games that you can possibly involve mathematics with
04:08:42 <itidus20> quintopia, single or multiplayer?
04:09:02 <zzo38> I don't have a specific example; I just mean in general some specific things having to do with certain games might be related to mathematical involving things, or maybe I wrote something wrong I don't actually know how to say this so I write like this is all mixed up sorry
04:10:52 <itidus20> I have a small stash of ebooks which I more or less just hoard and don't investigate, some of which may actually be relevant.
04:13:30 * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers some computer game from when he was a kid
04:14:03 <zzo38> When playing pokemon card I play for overmate. (Even if overmate is not relevant to the rules being used; it is certainly not relevant in the standard rules.)
04:14:25 <itidus20> lewis carroll, raymond smullyan, douglas hofstadter
04:14:46 <itidus20> i don't know if they entirely reach the topic.
04:14:52 <zzo38> I have one book written by Douglas Hofstadter.
04:16:16 <itidus20> i am sure john conway is relevant to the topic but i don't have any ebooks that are really related to him
04:19:41 <oerjan> winning ways, probably
04:20:39 <itidus20> puzzles are more common than actual games
04:21:16 * oerjan has simon tatham's lightup in the other window
04:23:26 <itidus20> depressing wiki comment backs me up "This article is about using mathematics to study the inner-workings of multiplayer games which, on the surface, may not appear mathematical at all. For games that directly involve mathematics in their play, see mathematical puzzle."
04:25:19 <itidus20> anyway here is the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_game
04:28:07 <quintopia> all the math games i know are too hard for mere humans to do in their heads
04:30:34 <itidus20> As a wannabe game designer it gives me great pain to think about how the only reason games are possible is due to imperfections in the players.
04:31:08 <itidus20> relative to perfect play that is
04:31:37 <itidus20> but thats probably a naive view i hold too often
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04:32:49 <itidus20> That is the cynical depressing view that all gaming is to demonstrate some level of deviation from perfect play higher than the opponent.
04:33:35 <itidus20> Then again we find that perfect play is a waste of time.
04:34:02 <itidus20> And yet it helps motivate us to play if we idealize perfect play.
04:34:18 <itidus20> All of this of course is my cynical views which are probably wrong.
04:35:57 <quintopia> this is only true of mathematical games
04:36:42 <quintopia> here's an example: the simple three player game help-or-hinder
04:37:16 <quintopia> so winning has nothing to do with perfect players...
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04:38:03 <itidus20> i can think of arguments against my earlier comments but its all just a pile of crap comments
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04:39:03 <itidus20> you know what i havent seen much is coop games
04:39:34 <itidus20> i was talking to this guy once about it
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04:41:49 <zzo38> Now I have the DVI file of my and my brother character sheet. Currently it has no story text or footnotes.
04:42:26 <itidus20> omg the first result on google is an xkcd page
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04:43:20 <itidus20> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16990
04:43:42 <itidus20> omg quintopia posted on that page
04:46:47 <zzo38> Did you expect the Spanish Inquisition?
04:47:13 <itidus20> well i searched on: "3 player game" "help or hinder"
04:47:24 <itidus20> didn't work in bing so i proceeded to google and it did
04:47:41 <zzo38> OK now I know what you search
04:47:56 <itidus20> yet an MS spokeswoman says "if google didn't exist bing would be good enough"
04:48:52 <quintopia> i didn't remember that that guy invented that game
04:49:15 <itidus20> yeah good enough for me to use as fertilizer
04:50:00 <itidus20> so.... by having an odd number of players the dynamics become much more complex
04:50:42 <Sgeo_> Isn't Diplomacy a 7 player game?
04:50:55 <Sgeo_> Not really mathematical in that way though
04:51:12 <Sgeo_> Although I wonder what would happen if you took the board out and just made it that sort of game
04:52:08 <itidus20> this very sort of topic is what eventually led me to a chatroom for esoteric programming languages
04:53:14 <itidus20> so this page is like anti-3 player games
04:54:23 <zzo38> Theoretical maximum overmate in pokemon card is eight. Try to design a situation using only cards in Pokemon Card GB2 where the player whose turn it is can win with eight overmate on this turn. Better if the number of things that must be done is increased and/or if chance based things are involved although when combining them properly you can guarantee a win
04:56:28 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phutball this one is good. solving it is PSPACE-complete!
04:56:29 <zzo38> Alternatively, instead of overmate (since overmate is not standard rule), do such that you have six side cards remain and zero cards in draw pile, opponent has many cards in draw pile but only one side card remain. And you are poisoned.
04:56:48 <itidus20> i am a genius of course.. so ideas often come to me
04:57:33 <quintopia> but you are keeping it to yourself
04:57:37 <itidus20> ok i am "confident" you have not heard of this game before
04:57:51 <zzo38> This is "The Ultimate Pokemon Card Puzzle Game".
04:58:01 <itidus20> so.. each player has 2 private 8x8 boards
04:58:50 <zzo38> itidus20: OK. So far. But that isn't much.
04:59:02 <itidus20> they each have a pair of 8x8 boards that only they can see.. thus a total of four 8x8 boards
04:59:34 <itidus20> they also have a bunch of tiles... lets say 128 tiles just to be safe
05:00:16 <zzo38> That should be sufficient to cover the board unless they are allowed to be stacked.
05:00:25 <itidus20> and uh.. 2 more tiles of a second color.. and 2 more tiles of a third color
05:00:50 <itidus20> so.. color 1) 128 tiles, color 2) 2 tiles, color 3) 2 tiles
05:00:51 <zzo38> OK what are these second and third colors mean?
05:01:26 <zzo38> I understand so far what you have written, but not sure of its significance yet due to you can write it later the rules, and then is known its significance to the game.
05:01:43 <itidus20> ok now.. they begin by placing color 3 tiles on the boards.. 1 on each board
05:02:37 <itidus20> now, on one of the boards, they place a color 2 tile somewhere
05:03:31 <zzo38> OK. Do you place of your choice position? Is it allowed to stand on top of the other tile or not?
05:03:48 <itidus20> oh.. its allowed anywhere except the first tile position
05:04:10 <itidus20> for now.. that rule might turn out to need altering
05:04:52 <itidus20> ok.. next.. you build a maze with the color 1 tiles leading to the color 2 tile
05:05:14 <itidus20> from the color 3 tile to the color 2 tile
05:05:26 <zzo38> OK. (I was going to ask exactly that)
05:06:50 <itidus20> diagonal moves are not possible, but the maze has to be a solid object in the way that a tetris piece is a solid object
05:07:04 <zzo38> OK, I think I understand what you mean.
05:07:21 <zzo38> Have gaps? How would that work?
05:07:32 <itidus20> well im not sure.. this part is tricky to formalize in words
05:08:03 <zzo38> If you cannot do it in words, do it in pictures, or in mathematics.
05:08:11 <itidus20> so anyway... what happens is.. in any order.. doesn't matter.. each turn.. both players are told which directions have walls
05:08:21 <itidus20> so it might be like "east and west have walls"
05:08:51 <quintopia> itidus20: the easiest way to say what i think you are trying to say is "no 2x2 region can contain no color 1 tiles"
05:09:08 <itidus20> and then the player tells the other player which direction he makes his move
05:09:13 <zzo38> I think I can see what this is doing a bit
05:09:33 <itidus20> and both players update their boards.. and its a race to reach the end of the maze
05:09:44 <quintopia> why does each player have two mazes
05:10:01 <quintopia> so they can construct the other player's maze on their own board
05:10:16 <zzo38> Yes I think I know exactly what this is now.
05:10:17 <quintopia> it's like multiplayer adventure game :P
05:10:40 <quintopia> except you can never be in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike
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05:10:49 <zzo38> Something like battleships, except not battleships at all.
05:11:20 <quintopia> an idea: what if the mazes can be arbitrary graphs but every node has unique number? :P
05:12:10 <quintopia> sorry, i always try to make things difficult. for instance when i saw the phutball game i said "i wonder if it would be harder on a projective plane?'
05:12:20 <zzo38> Then it is somewhat similar to Wumpus game??
05:12:21 <itidus20> oh i am empty of ideas now. just had to spill that one
05:12:39 <quintopia> or you can make it so the mazes are on tori!
05:13:04 <zzo38> quintopia: Have you ask on this channel a few days ago about FurryScript document? I have now written the document in case you were looking for it. Or, was it someone else who asked for it?
05:13:14 <quintopia> yes i saw you said that and thanked you
05:13:40 <zzo38> Maybe you can make a maze with the tiles and also chess as well.
05:15:48 <itidus20> it is by jumping into such random convos that such ideas come to me
05:17:04 <itidus20> zzo, yeah i like to consider every possible use of the chessboard other than to play chess :-?
05:18:37 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes you can make other games using the same or similar board. Some game similar to chess includes Xiangqi, Shogi, played with their own board, but it is still like chess, you still take turn moving 1 piece each, you attack opponent's king and can win, etc.
05:18:48 <itidus20> i actually created a wild image with my wacom tablet the other day to show my desire to stretch the game of chess
05:20:42 <zzo38> There are many variants and I have invented some chess variants. Some which are played with the same board. I made one game "123456 Chess" which is a chess variant that you can use a chess/checker/backgammon set. You start with rook standing on checkers, and two dice each with 1 on top at start. You can advance the dice which uses up a turn. Capture with checkers must be done if able.
05:22:05 <zzo38> Or, another game, once my brother put eight checkers in front of the pawns for joke. But then we decided to actually play that way. We discussed the rules although as it turned out both of us already agreed on the exact rules to use in our mind, before discussion!
05:22:11 <itidus20> I liked the chess variant shown on the big bang theory
05:22:26 <quintopia> i made my own game with chess pieces once. it had a much higher branching factor than chess, because it was possible to respawn captured pieces
05:22:53 <itidus20> http://oi55.tinypic.com/15n2fro.jpg
05:22:55 <quintopia> but the goal was simpler...simply to get a pawn to the opponents first rank
05:23:16 <quintopia> but i forgot the initial configuration and rules of motion
05:24:42 <zzo38> I have read of another variant where that is the case, win by a pawn on opponent's first rank.
05:25:09 <zzo38> But in that variant, it was otherwise as normal (FIDE) chess and you can win by checkmate too.
05:26:01 <itidus20> i dont like chess because i have no clue how to play.. and that being the best is ridiculously difficult
05:26:37 <itidus20> and a game like chess to me is the perfect thing to exploit into other games
05:28:33 <zzo38> I once had idea in Magic: the Gathering cards, a card, both players assign permanents to each chess piece (with not allowed two pieces for the same permanent), and then play chess. Any captured piece causes corresponding permanent to be discarded. In case of checkmated, losing player permanent corresponding to their king is discarded.
05:29:09 <itidus20> the maze thing is probably not as good in practice as it sounds.
05:29:33 <zzo38> itidus20: I believe you.
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05:31:10 <zzo38> Yes, I think it is something like battleships, except that it isn't battleships at all.
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05:32:05 <zzo38> Do you know how to play Magic: the Gathering card or play pokemon card?
05:32:10 <itidus20> you're right... its basically battleships except reduced down to 1 small ship
05:33:42 <quintopia> itidus20: i am getting another idea for a maze game
05:34:41 <zzo38> If anyone has idea, try to invent "The Ultimate Pokemon Card Puzzle Game".
05:34:57 <quintopia> this one will take some thinking since it is not symmetrical
05:35:03 <quintopia> zzo38: i'm not really into pokemon
05:35:52 <zzo38> quintopia: OK. You are not really into pokemon
05:35:57 <itidus20> quintopia: I once had an idea about generating a maze by dice rolls
05:36:57 <quintopia> itidus20: i want to make a cross between pacman and fox-and-geese, where the geese player is the only one who knows the maze and the positions of everything.
05:38:01 <itidus20> zzo, i am fascinated by some dragonball z emulated roms based on card games
05:38:22 <itidus20> ah fox and geese.. i have a book around with a lot of games described
05:38:24 <quintopia> but the problem is you can't let the maze be designed by the geese player because they could make it a labyrinth (unicursal) and trap the fox too easy
05:38:24 <zzo38> I once had an idea about making up an entire set of rules for a chess variant by dice rolls.
05:38:44 <quintopia> zzo38: such games have existed since the beginning of chess
05:39:19 <zzo38> No, I mean, before the game starts roll the dice to determine each individual small part of the rules. And then the game is played without dice.
05:39:20 <itidus20> theres 1 special book about chess history which i have been unable to locate on the internet
05:40:23 <quintopia> zzo38: make it a drinking game too
05:40:28 <zzo38> I do know, however, of chess variants with dice, including Ludus Equitum (roll two d6 dice to determine which two pieces you are allowed to move, and it is allowed to pass one or both parts)
05:40:35 <NihilistDandy> quintopia: That's the only way I get anything done anymore~
05:41:11 <quintopia> zzo38: that sounds similar to one particularly ancient one i was thinking of
05:41:13 <itidus20> A History Of Chess by some H.J.R. Murray
05:42:06 <zzo38> Ludus Equitum is not particularly ancient. It is relatively modern. However, it is the Society of Creative Anachronism game, so it is using old style rules.
05:42:43 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: Surprisingly, I can't find it either. I thought I had a near comprehensive set of books on chess.
05:43:52 <itidus20> I learned about it when I started to want to know about the very origins of chess
05:44:48 <NihilistDandy> I hope I solve chess. That'd look great on a resume~
05:47:27 <itidus20> theres something so compelling about chess.. but yet for me there is a certain boredom that i imagine with it
05:48:27 <NihilistDandy> Chess is always exciting, unless you play with people who know a little about it
05:48:42 <NihilistDandy> People who know nothing are interesting because they are hard to predict
05:48:56 <NihilistDandy> People who know a lot are exciting because they think in the metagame
05:49:20 <NihilistDandy> People who know a little have a small repertoire and decent middlegame. No fun at all
05:49:52 <zzo38> itidus20: I think I have also played some kind of card game Dragonball Z on NES, although I am unsure of the rule. Each card two numbers, one above is dots tell you how many times to move, the one below I am not sure what it means.
05:50:15 <zzo38> But I like pokemon card.
05:50:20 <itidus20> zzo38: yeah.. thats exactly the kind of game i mean. they're fun to watch
05:50:31 <coppro> I much prefer Magic to Pokemon
05:50:36 <itidus20> i have no clue what goes on though
05:52:20 <zzo38> I do know reading numbers with kanji, and also some words with hiragana and katakana, a bit.
05:52:48 <itidus20> oh well i think theres some translations anyway
05:52:56 <itidus20> but even still i would have no idea
05:54:27 <itidus20> so, zzo, did you learn much about chess variants?
05:55:22 <itidus20> i actually basically independantly discovered the theory of chess variants
05:55:45 <itidus20> and, at the end i googled it and found out with dismay that what i had discovered was nothing new at all
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05:56:32 <Sgeo_> Theory of chess variants>
05:56:42 <Sgeo_> How is there a "theory" of such things?
05:56:51 <zzo38> But what I can tell is you are allowed to step in the same square twice when walking, and that when you have to fight it might be useful if Gokuu and Pikkoro stand in the same place because then you can have both on your side fighting. And there are also some item cards. And different tiles have different effect stepping there. Also "Z" seems to mean eight
05:56:56 <itidus20> perhaps theory is the wrong word.. but i will explain
05:56:59 <zzo38> itidus20: http://chessvariants.org/
05:57:25 <Taneb> Anyone want a game of chess?
05:57:27 <itidus20> oh, well, by discovering it myself i had insight into exactly what chess variants are.
05:58:07 <itidus20> they are taking the properties of the individual pieces and forming an abstract class which you might call "chesspiece"
05:58:21 <itidus20> and.. deriving from that class.. new pieces
05:58:42 <itidus20> this general process is exceedingly powerful
06:01:40 <Taneb> Apparently a Whaling meeting ignored Whales!
06:01:44 <Taneb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14153779
06:04:55 <itidus20> so naturally most chess moves resolve into vectors. either specific lengths or unlimited
06:05:40 <itidus20> now .. this creates a problem if you imagine a chessboard of say 1000x1000 ... do you still want some pieces crossing it in one go -- that is -- are unlimited movement vectors implied on boards > 8x8
06:05:57 <itidus20> its all very fun for a rainy day
06:06:55 <Taneb> Pieces such as the queen and the rook have less of a vector and more of an angle
06:07:40 <itidus20> of course one way around that would be to divide the board up into districts
06:07:54 <itidus20> where a piece has to stop at the edge
06:08:54 <quintopia> how about making it instead of pieces moving, they clone themselves into some available square. no piece ever moves, but they die after some fixed number of moves.
06:09:06 <Taneb> But what would happen at the border to districts?
06:09:20 <NihilistDandy> Trees seem to be the most correct representation, at least to my mind
06:10:14 <Taneb> What if they're moving in some sort of jelly?
06:10:32 <Taneb> Different pieces can move further through the jelly
06:10:37 <itidus20> the trouble starts when you start trying to abstract moves like en passant and castling
06:11:10 <itidus20> then it feels like a scripting language would be useful
06:11:21 <itidus20> in the definition of the pieces
06:11:22 <quintopia> when a representation is too general to give insight to a human individual, it is not a useful model
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06:11:29 <Taneb> You know, I've only played en passant once?
06:11:47 <quintopia> en passant was a very late addition to the game
06:12:21 <Taneb> Optimal description of pieces and how they work, I think
06:12:47 <NihilistDandy> En passant is the rule that no one knows about unless they play regularly. Most of the adults I played with recreationally when I was younger had never heard of it
06:13:05 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: Ah, I see. Well, that does make a tree a little ridiculous
06:13:31 <Taneb> I've beaten someone who's beaten someone who was at one time the chess champion of Australia
06:14:28 <NihilistDandy> I suppose what I'm curious about is what exactly we are trying to quantify about the pieces and their movements.
06:15:12 <itidus20> well, i don't know. perhaps the conversation has multi-threaded too
06:15:30 <Taneb> I'm pretty much in a conversation with myself
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06:16:57 <itidus20> So I decided when I was thinking about chess variants that the minimal conditions I would find acceptable is a system which could describe all the rules of chess
06:17:27 <itidus20> including castling and pawns moving 2 spaces on their first go, and queening, and en passant etc
06:18:27 <NihilistDandy> Are we talking a computational system, or a general formalization?
06:18:46 <itidus20> I did try for a little while. I think as I became aware of the existence of professionals who had already done a lot of it, I lost interest.
06:19:45 <itidus20> I had plans on making a program to do it but it started to make me sweat so by then i had thrown in towel
06:20:07 <Taneb> I wouldn't have done that
06:20:15 <Taneb> I would have used the towel to dry off the sweat
06:20:19 <Taneb> And then continued
06:20:27 <Taneb> Maybe got someone to bring you a new towel
06:20:29 <itidus20> I didn't have any exciting ideas anyway
06:20:49 <itidus20> I simply realized that chesspieces could be highly generalized.
06:21:48 <itidus20> Also, there is the draw I feel towards making a realtime chess
06:22:00 <itidus20> I have seen a youtube video of kungfu chess.
06:22:30 <Taneb> http://www.tempestchess.com/
06:25:51 <itidus20> I feel a small joy reading "I would rather take the real-time chess concept as far as it can go."
06:26:52 <itidus20> but yeah.. sumo volleyball sounds like the kind of nonsense I would be looking to create
06:30:34 <Taneb> I would define a piece as: a list of vectors/angles defining how it can move
06:30:47 <Taneb> A boolean defining whether it can "jump" like a knight
06:31:10 <Taneb> And a series of scripts for special events such as castling, en passant, and promotion
06:31:29 <Taneb> Of course, pawns are weird
06:31:38 <itidus20> well, i decided to define a boolean named virgin for whether or not a piece has moved yet :D
06:32:27 <Taneb> How about a second series of vectors/angles defining how it can take, and if this is omitted, the movement one is used for this as well
06:33:08 <itidus20> i also abstracted the role of the king into an idea of like a squad leader
06:33:19 <Taneb> Also, somebody's spammed the wiki
06:33:22 <Taneb> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/100_free_dutch_dating_sites_2008
06:33:26 <Taneb> Can anyone here fix that?
06:34:20 <NihilistDandy> First let me grab those sweet free Dutch dating links!~
06:35:08 <itidus20> so uh.. you could have a chess army consisting of multiple squads..
06:35:15 <itidus20> and if you take down the leader, the whole squad falls
06:35:58 <itidus20> yeah, i am full of ideas on this kind of thing.. it provides me some kind of perverse pleasure
06:38:15 <Taneb> I need to find a charger cable
06:38:31 <Taneb> Actually, can anyone recommend an IRC client for Windows XP?
06:39:36 * Sgeo_ uses Silverex, which has "YChat" in the title bar
06:40:29 <Taneb> Leafchat looks cool
06:40:41 <itidus20> looking on the about box one of the devs of this ychat has an email address silverex@silverex.org
06:41:15 <Taneb> I'm going to leave, shut down, have breakfast, turn on a different computer, install leafchat, and return
06:41:18 <Sgeo_> itidus20, so basically, you're using Silverex, which just puts YChat as the name of the program
06:41:20 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: Leafchat's got perl scripting and so on, which is neat
06:42:05 <itidus20> its listed as: X Chat 2 in the start menu
06:45:29 <Sgeo_> Silverex is just a build of XChat
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07:13:25 <Taneb> This computer is quite slow
07:13:38 <Taneb> It was a normalish computer in 2006
07:13:49 <Taneb> I installed Dwarf Fortress
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07:24:30 <Taneb> So, what's happening in the world of esoteric programming?
07:25:35 <Taneb> "it B-\"? Sounds interesting
07:25:39 <Taneb> Could you elaborate?
07:26:27 <NihilistDandy> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/files/2010/11/hipster-cat.jpg
07:32:33 <Taneb> Oh, why are ink cartridges so tricky to replace?
07:33:50 <pikhq_> To punish you for not buying a laser printer.
07:34:31 <Taneb> I was holding it upside down
07:35:02 <pikhq_> Still, you should definitely invest in a laser printer.
07:35:19 <pikhq_> Y'know, a printer that you'll probably have to put in your will for your grandchildren.
07:37:23 <Taneb> I can't afford one of those!
07:37:37 <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer
07:38:00 <pikhq_> NihilistDandy: Clearly the laser printer is the superior choice.
07:38:18 <pikhq_> Also, you need to have children first.
07:38:42 <pikhq_> And in this anti-sanity economic climate, children are likely to cost you twice all the money.
07:40:18 <Taneb> Adopting pregnant adults, to minimise effort to gain grandchildren?
07:40:45 <pikhq_> Taneb: You can have pregnant non-adults, y'know.
07:41:03 <pikhq_> At least, as far as the US is concerned.
07:41:15 <pikhq_> (it's a fairly common thing, though)
07:41:43 <Taneb> Yeah, but then you need to look after them
07:42:02 <Taneb> I was trying to minimise long term effort
07:42:41 <pikhq_> I think it may be undoable in the Status Civitatis Vaticanae...
07:44:49 <Taneb> The way things are with the people of the Vatican?
07:44:56 <NihilistDandy> As long as you didn't pronounce that in the style of Church Latin, I'm okay with it
07:45:22 <Taneb> stahtus kiwitahtis waticahn-eye
07:45:40 <Taneb> GCSE Latin, hopefully coming this August
07:45:41 <pikhq_> NihilistDandy: I actually find Church Latin somewhat unnatural.
07:45:55 <Taneb> It's good for ominous chanting
07:46:05 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: I'm so glad I'm not the only one who took Latin
07:46:10 <pikhq_> I don't even really know Latin, I just know that Church Latin sucks. :P
07:46:34 <pikhq_> (my knowledge of Latin is limited to: orthography, pronunciation, obvious cognates)
07:46:36 <NihilistDandy> Church Latin is what happens when you let Italians ruin things :|
07:47:04 <pikhq_> (and random things memorised courtesy of high school choir)
07:47:17 <Taneb> lingua latina Pateri mala est
07:47:26 <pikhq_> Taneb: The age of consent in the Vatican is 12.
07:47:30 <NihilistDandy> I learned more about English in two years of Latin than I did in all my other schooling
07:48:36 <pikhq_> NihilistDandy: They copied most of the laws in existence in Italy in the early 1900s.
07:48:41 <pikhq_> Including their age of consent.
07:48:49 <pikhq_> And have since not changed it.
07:49:01 <Taneb> "The claim is sometimes made that "In the Vatican State, there is an equal age of consent set at 12 years of age",[48] but this is incorrect. In 1929, when the Lateran Treaty was signed, the age of consent in Italy was 12,[49], and this was indeed adopted by the Vatican. However, as stated above, the rise in the Italian age of consent applied automatically to the Vatican City."
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07:50:24 <Taneb> And 12 in parts of Mexico
07:50:39 <pikhq_> Hong Kong has an age of consent of 16 for heterosexual sex.
07:50:44 <pikhq_> And no age of consent for homosexual sex.
07:51:03 <Taneb> But you have to be married
07:51:10 <pikhq_> Not because it's illegal to be gay.
07:51:30 <pikhq_> But because the only law estabilishing an age of consent was struck down in the courts.
07:51:37 <NihilistDandy> If the FBI asks, this was a very complex conversation about combinators
07:51:55 <pikhq_> So, it's legal for Catholic priests to fuck little boys in Hong Kong.
07:52:35 <Taneb> My English Teacher moved to Hong Kong
07:52:53 <Taneb> And my piano teacher moved to China
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08:03:36 <Taneb> For someone from Manchester?
08:04:14 <NihilistDandy> Where the hell did I hear Mancuvian, then? :/ I've thought that that was the term for ages
08:04:43 <Taneb> I'm a novacastrian, incidentally
08:05:33 <Taneb> Don't have a thick enough accent to be a geordie
08:06:26 <NihilistDandy> Damn, I was wondering what was killing my battery life. Had some Monte Carlo Java nonsense running in the background
08:08:04 <NihilistDandy> There's a geordie comedian I see on QI occasionally that I find very funny, but I can never remember his name
08:09:14 <NihilistDandy> I'm mostly in it for the Stephen Fry goodness, but they get some good people on there :D
08:09:26 <Taneb> I watch it for Alan Davies
08:10:38 <Taneb> How about... an esolang based on QI!
08:12:06 <NihilistDandy> I'm sure it's already been done and abstracted to some absurd level already :D
08:12:29 <Taneb> British panel show
08:12:48 <Taneb> It stands for Quite Interesting
08:12:57 <NihilistDandy> Sort of a trivia show, but with vague points and barely any right answers
08:13:17 <Taneb> "What language did the Romans speak?"
08:13:44 <Taneb> You lose points for saying the obvious answer
08:14:02 <Taneb> "What was the great dissapoitment"
08:14:10 <Taneb> "Have you been talking to my husband?"
08:14:41 <NihilistDandy> Ross Noble had some surprisingly accurate answers about hedgehogs a few weeks ago
08:14:58 <Taneb> Man, where was I a few weeks ago...
08:15:17 <itidus20> I doubt that there is a QI esolang though.
08:15:24 <NihilistDandy> I download it since I can't do the BBC video thing from here and they don't show it on BbCA
08:15:37 <Taneb> There's a very good reason for that
08:15:44 <Taneb> They use a lot of copyrighted stuff
08:15:50 <Taneb> Which is licensed only for the UK
08:15:51 <itidus20> although.. much to my surprise, a term i thought up "hashashins weed" has already been used
08:16:01 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRkkVQ6OSE
08:16:34 <NihilistDandy> Oh, good, they finally updated the HTML5 player on youtube
08:17:45 <Taneb> How about BCL with Q and I instead of 1 and 0
08:17:54 <Taneb> Or Alan Davies and Stephen Fry
08:19:38 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA8qT5PzSS4&feature=related
08:22:23 <NihilistDandy> Grover Cleveland was two presidents of the United States :D
08:23:26 <NihilistDandy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kndxsByVscA&feature=related
08:25:02 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDCwP2SnI4&feature=related
08:41:21 <NihilistDandy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aX26k5ZNzI&feature=related
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09:47:11 <Taneb> My town's got a music festival this afternoon
09:47:44 <oklopol> we had a music festival a few weekends ago
09:47:48 <oklopol> well you know a full night's sleep
09:48:14 <Taneb> I don't think i've ever been asleep that long
09:48:27 <Taneb> Had about two hours last night
09:48:42 <Taneb> But yeah, I remembered why I don't like it when I'm cleanshaven
09:49:34 <Taneb> I look like a freakin' elf
09:50:26 <oklopol> you make the awesomest palindromes, you don't need sex and you don't need sleep. you are a fucking superhuman :|
09:50:37 <oklopol> oh and you can transform into an elf
09:51:10 <oklopol> people think i'm 5-10 cm shorter than i actually am because of my crouching
09:51:20 <oklopol> but i'm not sure that's transforming into an elf
09:51:38 <Taneb> Depends on your facial hair
09:51:50 <Taneb> Santa's elves are gnomes
09:52:42 <oklopol> but they have the property of dwarves which made you say dwarf in the first place
09:52:53 <Taneb> Except for facial hair
09:53:26 <Taneb> If anything, Santa's elves are Sami
09:53:37 <oklopol> well yeah but i have my own way of elving up and it uses a different breed of elf
09:54:47 <Lymee> ?pl i f x = i f $ f x
09:55:06 <Taneb> Can you make Lambdabot call itself?
09:55:36 <lambdabot> Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another!
09:55:47 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
09:56:05 <lambdabot> foldl' f a (x:xs) = let a' = f a x in a' `seq` foldl' f a' xs
10:05:10 <oklopol> so did i tell you i met this canadian guy who thought stars are planets and was pretty sure scientology is the science of studying science
10:05:31 <Taneb> But one of my friends thought the capital of the US was in British Columbia
10:05:59 <Taneb> Got mixed up with Distric of.
10:07:08 <oklopol> but anyway it was kinda fun, 21yo dude who had never been told the first thing about space (perhaps they teach something that's actually useful instead in canada, dunno what tho)
10:07:22 <olsner> then again knowing the capital of anything is useless trivia, especially when it isn't the largest or most famous city in the country
10:07:23 <Taneb> Fighting polar bears?
10:07:33 <Taneb> And take in mind that some people just can't be taught.
10:08:01 <olsner> (i.e. the capital of america is new york)
10:08:12 <Taneb> After we did the early USSR in History for about three months, some people in my class still had no idea who Lenin was
10:08:20 <Taneb> (and Australia's is Sydney)
10:08:38 <oklopol> he was studying accounting and i'm like isn't that stuff just adding up numbers? and he says nono there's so much more there's, let's see, managerial accounting, and then ummmm cost accounting, and well that's all i've had sofar. and i ask what those are and he's like
10:09:40 <oklopol> ...which i assumed meant "adding up numbers".
10:10:19 <Taneb> Sylvester McCoy is going to play Radagast the Brown in the Hobbit movie!
10:13:13 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0&feature=related fny sho
10:14:51 <Taneb> I'm going to quote you on my user page
10:15:51 <oklopol> go ahead, although it's HackEgo quotes i'm after
10:26:37 <cheater_> oklopol, your message got cut at "he's like"
10:29:36 <oklopol> cheater_: no it didn't, actually
10:29:44 <oklopol> sorry, i suppose that's a bit confusing of a thing.
10:32:00 <olsner> he made a reaction of the kind that you would assume meant "adding up numbers"
10:32:17 <oklopol> no actually he said nothing
10:32:37 <oklopol> well what olsner said but my cutting it off meant precisely what i said
10:33:35 <cheater_> pretty cool: https://markup.mozilla.org/en-US/#/mark/new
10:36:51 <Taneb> It's essentially a simpler version of DeviantArt Muro?
10:37:16 <oklopol> they won't let ie users in
10:38:31 <Taneb> On another not, Oerjan demonstrated how easy it is to program in NUmberwang
10:38:42 <Taneb> It should be hard to program in
10:43:41 <oklopol> i preferred on another not
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11:24:32 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRbj1Q4tXNo&feature=related these are just amazing
11:36:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
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13:07:28 <CakeProphet> doesn't causation correlate to correlation?
13:07:49 <oklopol> yes, but that doesn't mean there's a causation
13:08:28 <CakeProphet> THEREFORE CAUSATION DOESN'T CAUSE CORRELATION
13:08:51 <CakeProphet> this should be published. This is world-breaking research.
13:09:05 <oklopol> i'm not following you, but i'll gladly coauthor it with you
13:09:36 <oklopol> speaking of which, i should get my euler number in august yay
13:09:42 <CakeProphet> I don't think you actually have to be right to get published in an academic journal.
13:10:12 <CakeProphet> I think you just need to have a lot to say and a lot of sources.
13:10:26 <oklopol> i don't have a lot to say?
13:10:50 <oklopol> i wrote two articles last week
13:11:07 <CakeProphet> well, it's not strictly required that you be full of shit to publish something, of course.
13:11:16 <CakeProphet> but I think it happens. It's just a hunch, really
13:11:58 <oklopol> i read "<CakeProphet> I don't think you actually have the right to get published in an academic journal." :D
13:12:20 <oklopol> i'll gladly admit i'm full of shit but i certainly have a lot to say :D
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13:53:42 <tswett> Turhauttavinta. Käyttämisessä. Pitää.
13:54:06 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
13:55:10 <tswett> Okokoko turhauttavinta.
13:56:11 <oklopol> i don't think a double elative is very meaningful
13:56:51 <oklopol> yes, lauma = herd, laumasta = happy herd
13:57:08 <oklopol> been doing that a lot today
13:57:35 <tswett> Raikuja! Raikuja koirut siviisetsa!
13:57:37 <oklopol> that is, from from his herd
13:59:03 <tswett> Laumassa. Laumat. Laumoineen.
13:59:53 <tswett> oklopol: say, didn't I plan to meet you somewhere in Finland some time in the year 2014?
13:59:57 <tswett> I'm afraid I must reschedule.
14:00:11 <oklopol> you coming early or dying of cancer?
14:01:47 <tswett> Well, I've forgotten the time and place, for one.
14:02:15 <oklopol> if someone were to find that promise in the logs, would there be further problems
14:02:55 <oklopol> also what did you end up studying at the uni, i only recall your prechoice mumblings on the matter
14:03:49 <oklopol> cool so how many years now, 1?
14:06:52 <oklopol> i don't know if you know this but i love math
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14:11:34 <oklofok> correlation correlating with causation is correlated with correlation causes causation, and thus causes correlation to cause causation
14:11:47 <oklofok> correlation correlating with causation is correlated with correlation causing causation, and thus causes correlation to cause causation
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14:18:40 <oklofok> just think about what you could do with a hundred million moneys
14:19:25 <oklofok> that's a manyload of moneys.
14:21:44 <CakeProphet> yes it is almost too many manyloads, so many I cannot think of many more.
14:22:50 <CakeProphet> that is a hundred of a million. I don't even know what kind of math you would need to calculate one hundred millions.
14:23:16 <oklofok> more math than you can carry around in a purse that's for sure.
14:23:38 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
14:24:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It means that your expression is so wrong it can't even work out where to start.
14:24:49 <CakeProphet> what if I have a pizza and a choice of 3 out of 12 toppings.
14:24:58 <CakeProphet> like, I don't think they've gotten enough math for that.
14:25:10 <oklofok> you mean you have a choice of 1 out of 4 toppings
14:25:37 <CakeProphet> What? no, that's uh... three less of those. Fuck how do you even describe that.
14:26:02 <CakeProphet> it's like having the thing that a hundred millions makes, but then reversing it.
14:26:22 <CakeProphet> I'm so confused. I think I'm going to go to sleep.
14:26:54 <oklofok> everyone should major in maths, because maths is better
14:28:12 <oklofok> obviously, you choose every fourth
14:28:14 <CakeProphet> but do not feel like getting my computer to calculate it.
14:29:42 <oklofok> yeah 12 choose 3 != 1 choose 4
14:29:55 <CakeProphet> in any case, I didn't really make it entirely clear that that was the actual problem.
14:30:25 <CakeProphet> but yeah, math can't even do that shit. it's unpossible.
14:31:13 <CakeProphet> obviously you have never read the definition of unpossible.
14:31:29 <CakeProphet> STOP MAKING ME REPLY. yes, you are making me, with voodoo.
14:31:59 <oklofok> should go out but i can't find my unbrella
14:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ir3xv/we_know_the_universe_is_very_nearly_flat_does/
14:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "[I] have taken an advanced undergrad course in topology."
14:34:49 <Phantom_Hoover> "I accept this assumption, but even with it I'm not seeing the connection between the universe's boundary and its geometry."
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15:02:49 <tswett> 3 choose 12 is equal to 1 choose 4.
15:06:13 <Taneb> I have no idea what you are talking about
15:06:28 <Taneb> I think you're trying to do division, but have chosen the wrong word
15:06:37 <tswett> Nope. It's the "choose" operator.
15:07:02 <Deewiant> 3 choose 12 equals 1 choose 4 equals zero
15:07:22 <tswett> x choose y is the number of subsets of size y of a set of cardinality x. And 3 choose 12 is equal to 1 choose 4.
15:07:28 <Deewiant> 12 choose 3 does not equal 4 choose 1
15:09:07 <tswett> Sure, but 3 choose 12 is the same as 1 choose 4.
15:09:17 <Taneb> And 7 choose 71278
15:09:29 <Taneb> Whenever the second is more than the first, it's 0
15:09:59 <tswett> Well, just remember the phrase. "From 3, choose 12."
15:11:04 <Taneb> I had never encountered that operaor before
15:11:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, wait, you have a GCSE and stats and you'd never encountered the choice function?
15:12:38 <Taneb> All we seemed to learn about was the difference between primary and secondary research and how we could do market research
15:12:43 <tswett> Taneb: quick, express (a + b)^n as a summation!
15:13:46 <Taneb> Now you're just making fun of the poor quality of my education
15:17:56 <Taneb> I have no idea what I'm even trying to do
15:29:51 <Taneb> Could you explain it?
15:30:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, give a closed form for the nth term of (a + b)^n, basically.
15:32:53 <oklofok> no one's saying 12 choose 3 is equal to 4 choose 1 AS A NUMBER, but they are PHILOSOPHICALLY the same
15:33:09 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover:...
15:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, well, it should be the mth term, since the two ns aren't the same.
15:34:26 <oklofok> yeah and when you're done, give us the third term of the set {1, 5, 4, 6, 2, 76, 8, 4, 2}
15:35:30 <oklofok> so GCSE means what exactly, i think i asked this recently
15:35:46 <Taneb> A relatively low level qualification
15:36:02 <oklofok> but you haven't done any math, cs or physics?
15:36:24 <Deewiant> oklofok: Kind of like ylioppilaskirjoitukset but done after the yläaste-equivalent
15:36:32 <Taneb> Done maths and physics, awaiting results
15:36:35 <oklofok> i bet i didn't know that operation at that point either
15:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Although our qualifications in Scotland go insanely low; there are like 4 types of idiot exam.
15:37:08 <oklofok> actually i had taken a few high school courses in elementary school so i guess i did know it
15:37:34 <oklofok> but i don't recall choice having been taught there otherwise
15:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Although nobody ever actually takes the lowest 3 to my knowledge.
15:39:34 <oklofok> we... we something upper than that.
15:40:03 <oklofok> upper an idiot i'm way! :\
15:40:20 <oklofok> so i tried borrowing people's cellphones
15:41:03 <oklofok> idgi, in paris and other third world countries the streets are full of all sorts of crooks and everyone still treats you like you're a person; out there everyone assumed i was going to do something fishy
15:41:26 <oklofok> one typed the number in himself, and looked a bit scared
15:41:53 <oklofok> and the other one was a druggie so he was nice ofc
15:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe if you didn't go around wearing a stocking on your head all the time.
15:42:28 <oklofok> well i was driving around on my scooter/kickboard/whatever, which makes people look at you a bit weirdly as only kids use those
15:42:32 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37X4WAmwiJQ
15:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I was also referring to that picture of oklofok I've seen.
15:44:31 <oklofok> oh. that was a football though
15:45:17 <oklofok> no bank robber would wear something like that
15:45:52 <Taneb> I reckon that nowadays a bank robber would wear their underwear and never leave their house
15:47:19 <Taneb> Oh dear god the weather
15:47:27 <oklofok> so umm were those real reactions?
15:47:44 <Taneb> I've lived in the UK for 14.5 years and I'm still not used to the weather
15:47:48 <oklofok> why would you assume someone's a robber before they have stated this
15:48:06 <Taneb> Because they are prejudiced
15:48:46 <oklofok> why be prejudiced about something that's not true
15:49:08 <oklofok> a robber wouldn't wear something like that because you can see their face 100%
15:49:12 <Taneb> That is the best thing to be prejudiced about
15:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, I'm guessing it makes it harder to make it out on CCTV.
15:49:42 <oklofok> oh that's actually a good point
15:50:13 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> I've lived in the UK for 14.5 years and I'm still not used to the weather
15:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Have I mentioned that my breath fogged up in mid-morning in May inside my house.
15:50:35 <oklofok> still, the guy with the stocking on his head did nothing wrong, bite your fucking tongue
15:50:59 <Taneb> They're in Australia
15:51:09 <Taneb> They have to assume that everybody is trying to kill them
15:51:13 <Taneb> It's the safest way
15:53:17 <Taneb> Well, the rain is really heavy
15:53:48 <Taneb> My front road's going to flood again
15:55:11 <Taneb> The majority of my towns sewage flows through a small pipe along my roud
15:56:32 <Taneb> When my road floods, it smells awful
15:56:34 <oklofok> we don't have floods here, so maybe i'm missing something
15:59:28 <Taneb> Well, now one side of the road is dangerous to drive through
16:00:29 <Taneb> That bus just left a freakin' wake
16:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> The majority of my towns sewage flows through a small pipe along my roud
16:01:23 <Taneb> Seriously, you just worked out where I live
16:01:58 <Taneb> The rain's just stopped
16:02:10 <oklofok> how many people live in hexham?
16:02:17 <Taneb> Just short of 12000
16:02:35 <oklofok> then either you do not live in hexham or we know who brought you here
16:02:47 <oklofok> neither seems that unlikely
16:03:20 <Taneb> I seriously do live in Hexham
16:04:14 <oklofok> then you were brought here by your irl contacts
16:04:59 <Taneb> I got here from the wiki, which I got from Wikipedia
16:05:08 <oklofok> huh. well elliott lives in hexham as well
16:05:53 <oklofok> he's this kid who refused to meet me a few weeks ago
16:06:07 <Taneb> He lives in Hexham?
16:07:16 <Taneb> I know neither any 12 nor 18 year olds
16:08:26 <Taneb> I can conlude he probably doesn't have a Facebook account
16:08:53 <oklofok> someone still uses facebook?
16:09:28 <Taneb> I let my Facebook get out of hand.
16:09:37 -!- monqy has joined.
16:10:06 <Taneb> Man, what a crazy day
16:10:26 <Taneb> I can prove that I live in Hexham!
16:10:37 <Taneb> Earlier today, I said I was going to a music fest in my town
16:11:05 <Taneb> http://www.visitnorthumberland.com/site/events/shows-and-festivals/selefest-2011-p573711#ProductList-/site/events/shows-and-festivals/selefest-2011-p573711
16:11:35 <oklofok> a guy with your palindrome talent could easily work it out we were going to ask you if you lived in hexham.
16:12:01 <Taneb> I had no idea that you were going to ask me if I lived in Hexham
16:12:27 <Taneb> But if you look at the date of that website, it's today!
16:12:46 <oklofok> how many festivals a year does hexham have?
16:12:57 <Taneb> As far as I know, 1!
16:13:23 <Taneb> But then there's that other time when the rollercoasters come
16:13:42 <Taneb> And that other time when there's a historical redoey thingy on about the Hexham Protests
16:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ""Hexham" was used in the Borders as a euphemism for "Hell"."
16:14:43 <Taneb> I've never heard that except on Wikipedia
16:15:43 <Taneb> That is, I don't live in the Borders
16:15:49 <Taneb> Except by a really loose definition
16:15:57 <oklofok> Taneb didn't you say you have read the whole wp
16:16:12 <Taneb> I said I read Wikipedia often
16:16:23 <Taneb> That includes my hometown
16:17:34 <Taneb> I've edited the Wikipedia page for my School!
16:17:35 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Queen_Elizabeth_High_School,_Hexham&action=history
16:18:01 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Queen_Elizabeth_High_School,_Hexham&diff=prev&oldid=371171660
16:18:15 <oklofok> that proves nothing, you could've edited every school's wp page at that time.
16:18:30 <Taneb> Why the hell would I do that
16:19:03 <oklofok> you could've done that SO YOU COULD FAKE LIVING ANYWHERE YOU WANTED
16:19:40 <oklofok> because i know all the other 4 finns
16:19:57 -!- foocraft has joined.
16:20:04 <Taneb> I have no need for alcohol
16:20:19 <cheater_> THAT PROVES YOU DO NOT LIVE IN FINLAND
16:20:28 <cheater_> WE ARE HOT ON YOUR TRACK, MISTER
16:21:08 * Phantom_Hoover notes that Taneb's user page redirects to "High Middle Ages".
16:21:24 <monqy> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ABCD does anyone understand this
16:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> 21:39:06: <oerjan> <Taneb> I'm a Northumbrian <-- and you say that after i was joking the other they that you were coincidentally Elliott's next door neighboor
16:22:03 <monqy> also http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:ABCD_Programming_Language_Family
16:22:27 <monqy> also the "revolver architect" deal on that guy's user page http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Billlam
16:22:55 <Taneb> I'm in the talk pagges for two of those
16:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, well, you're practically his next-door neighbour, especially in internet terms.
16:23:19 <Taneb> My next door neighbours are Mr Snowdon and the Bradshaws!
16:23:27 <Taneb> None of whom are called Elliott
16:23:28 * oklofok repeats he has found his next-building neighbor not through this channel
16:23:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, based on the fact that he probably goes to the same school as you...
16:23:38 * oklofok repeats he has found his next-building neighbor through this channel
16:24:39 <Taneb> Someone's just crossed the still flooded road barefoot
16:24:52 <oklofok> "<monqy> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ABCD does anyone understand this" <<< i can honestly say i do
16:25:06 <monqy> please enlighten me
16:25:25 <Taneb> It's essentially deadfish with no square function, as well as input
16:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so guys I am being dragged off to Ireland in two days and I need something to stave off the boredom for a week.
16:34:31 <oklofok> also the druggie probably only lent me his phone because he wanted to know where you can get drugs here in turku
16:35:00 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to EstablishmentLov.
16:35:07 -!- EstablishmentLov has changed nick to copumpkin.
16:35:27 <oklofok> walk outside and find a dealer?
16:36:46 <oklofok> i told this german girl prostitution is illegal on every street in finland, and she's like "okay, so where do the prostitutes work then?"
16:36:57 <oklofok> i wish we were more like europe
16:38:12 <oklofok> when i say i wish i spoke japanese like a jap i don't mean i wish i spoke japanese like a jap who doesn't have a mouth because he ripped it off
16:39:40 <oklofok> mostly we just use the phrase "like europe" in here to refer to non-scandinavic europe (oh we also refer to finland as a part of scandinavia usually)
16:40:17 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
16:40:30 <oklofok> i mean we are essentially the same country as sweden except for the language
16:41:49 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:45:13 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:01:30 <oklofok> okay this chasers thing is incredibly awesome as well
17:01:36 <oklofok> maybe i'm just really easy to impress today
17:01:55 <oklofok> IF I HAVE TOLD YOU YOU'RE AWESOME TODAY, SORRY, THAT'S PROBABLY NOT TRUE AND YOUR LIVES ARE SAD AS SHIT.
17:02:19 <oklofok> so i was thinking maybe i'll start smoking
17:02:29 <oklofok> wonder if i have a lighter
17:08:58 <oklofok> i've actually always wanted to try handing out money on the street
17:16:48 <oklofok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GclCE0cLA-o best ending
17:17:18 <oklofok> "i'm sorry, i outrank you" "can i ask what's going on here?" "sorry, i'm afraid it's classified" "no problem"
17:17:44 -!- cheater_ has joined.
17:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, that's not the one I was talking about, but I hadn't seen it.
17:22:52 <oklofok> actually when i linked it i had forgotten about your suggestion completely, just randomly linke, so lucky me, what's the real one?
17:27:21 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
17:28:05 <oklofok> you mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdnAaQ0n5-8 ?
17:48:39 <oklofok> i hadn't heard of this but that's like straight outta hustle
17:57:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Based on the one episode of The Hustle I've seen, I agree.
18:00:01 -!- foocraft has quit (Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish!).
18:01:19 -!- foocraft has joined.
18:01:33 -!- cheater__ has joined.
18:02:37 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:03:28 <oklofok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7hcFuxVc_Q&feature=related xD
18:05:59 <Taneb> Still not believing I live in Hexham
18:06:36 <oklofok> i'm currently acting on the assumption that you will consistently claim to be from hexham
18:07:03 <Taneb> I cannot think of a way to prove that I am in Hexham
18:07:10 <oklofok> but i wouldn't say i believe it's a physical fact that you live there, although i currently highly suspect that to be the case
18:07:12 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:07:17 <Taneb> If you think of one, let me know
18:07:26 <oklofok> there are very easy ways to do that
18:08:20 <oklofok> go to one of the things hexham has that is on the internet and put something of my choice there
18:08:32 <oklofok> say a shoe on top of the most famous building
18:08:42 <Taneb> I am not going on top of the Abbey
18:09:09 <Taneb> I will stand next to the abbey in site of the Hexham Courant Webcam for a while with a sign saying "I AM TANEB"
18:10:05 <oklofok> okay, that would be nice of you
18:10:19 <Taneb> And confusing to everyone around me
18:10:20 <oklofok> i would certainly believe you then
18:11:16 <oklofok> full belief is so liberating compared to even a slight doubt
18:11:28 <oklofok> because all you need to store is the fact, you can just forget the proof
18:11:42 <Taneb> It's like Turing-Completeness
18:12:08 <Taneb> I have no idea how to prove Lambda Calculus is Turing Complete
18:12:37 <Taneb> The point is I don't need to
18:12:47 <Taneb> Because everyone who has an interest already knows
18:13:12 <oklofok> i have an interest, but i wouldn't say i actually know, i'm pretty sure i could do it tho
18:13:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Just use the Brainfuck interpreter Ben Gould provided, then use the reduction from BF to P´´, then use Bohm's proof that P´´ is TC.
18:13:59 <oklofok> (unlike ph, i'm going to guess)
18:14:16 <oklofok> i couldn't find a lighter :(
18:14:46 <Taneb> Does anyone know an IRC client that works on a Kindle?
18:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, it's not on Google, therefore it doesn't exist.
18:15:48 <Taneb> I got Mibbit working for Kindle
18:15:54 <Taneb> But Freenode blocks mibbit
18:16:41 <lifthrasiir> are there any consensus for the bit-packing order of bit input/output operations on esolangs?
18:17:02 <Taneb> What, big-endian or little-endian?
18:17:31 <Taneb> There's not even a consensus IRL
18:18:16 <Taneb> IRL here, of course, means in conventional programming
18:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course not, consensus is stupid for things like that.
18:19:02 <lifthrasiir> well, i didn't mean whether it'd be big or little endian, i meant whether the bit-packing order *is* fixed.
18:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Consensus is important for stuff like EoF in BF, because they're all meant to be doing the same thing.
18:19:29 <Taneb> Is consensus second or fourth declension?
18:19:36 <lifthrasiir> is there any esolang that may use little endian or big endian for bit packing from time to time?
18:20:35 <Taneb> Not as far as I'm aware
18:21:09 <Taneb> There's not even a consensus as to which order to list cases for Latin words!
18:21:29 <Taneb> What's with this Nom, Gen, Dat, Acc, Abl, Voc?
18:22:30 <Taneb> Example: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sensus
18:23:45 <Taneb> I do it like Cambridge Latin Course does.
18:23:58 <Taneb> Nom, Voc, Acc, Gen, Dat, Abl
18:24:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't come from sensus also Oxford Latin Course does it the same way.
18:24:33 <Taneb> Maybe it's them who's weird
18:25:21 <zzo38> Other than myself playing 123456 Chess on a chessboard, there have been two other games over computer I am not a player in either one of them. There has been Nicholas Wolff against Vitya Makov and je ju against Nicholas Wolff. Wolff won the first game and I think they will probably win the second game as well.
18:27:45 <Taneb> You know, I'm told over and over again to not release any personal details on the internet
18:27:56 <Taneb> But when you do, nobody believes you!
18:28:17 <zzo38> Then don't release any personal details on the internet.
18:28:39 <Taneb> They worked it out.
18:28:44 <zzo38> Some people ask me so hard that I lie. But, they are making up lies to try to get my information too. (It is on IRC)
18:29:41 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure you're not listening to anything I say except the first comment of 19:27 BST
18:30:37 <zzo38> Do you mean me? Also it is not my timezone
18:30:53 <Taneb> Except it was the last of 19:26
18:31:16 <zzo38> I am not always connected to IRC
18:31:27 <Taneb> It didn't say you had left
18:31:58 <zzo38> I still don't know what comment you refer to since that isn't my timezone
18:32:21 <Taneb> <Taneb> You know, I'm told over and over again to not release any personal details on the internet
18:33:17 <oklofok> "<Taneb> What's with this Nom, Gen, Dat, Acc, Abl, Voc?" <<< obviously acc comes before dat
18:33:31 <oklofok> also what Phantom_Hoover said
18:33:32 <hagb4rd> i watched this amazing video on yt.. "history of fps-games 1974-?" ..notice the performance of the first 3D shooters is unrecheached (and mabe finds its most darkest hour) for the next 15yrs
18:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklofok> "<Taneb> What's with this Nom, Gen, Dat, Acc, Abl, Voc?" <<< obviously acc comes before dat
18:33:57 <hagb4rd> i watched this amazing video on yt.. "history of fps-games 1974-?" ..notice the performance of the first 3D shooters is unrecheached (and mabe finds its most darkest hour) for the next 15yrs
18:34:00 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aipGP5oAuWQ&feature=related
18:34:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Um, the One True Ordering is nom, voc, acc, gen, dat, abl.
18:34:54 <oklofok> "<Taneb> You know, I'm told over and over again to not release any personal details on the internet" <<< eh? have you heard of facebook, no one says that anymore, nowadays everyone says STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE AND PUT YOUR FACE ON FACEBOOK.
18:35:15 <itidus20> yay darkest hours are always the most thrilling
18:35:17 <Taneb> I never said I wasn't recieving conflitcting messages
18:35:23 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what oklofok has as his profile picture on Facebook.
18:36:27 <oklofok> so after years of wanting to start smoking, i just managed to smoke a cig!
18:36:36 <zzo38> Once I start a business I might release some information on internet, such as telephone
18:36:45 <zzo38> And also full name
18:37:34 <Taneb> oklofok: Today was the first day I could bear the smell of ciggarette smoke.
18:37:51 <oklofok> "<Phantom_Hoover> Um, the One True Ordering is nom, voc, acc, gen, dat, abl." <<< well i dunno latin, just that in german it's nom acc dat and gen is last because it's not used that much
18:38:31 <oklofok> "* Phantom_Hoover wonders what oklofok has as his profile picture on Facebook." <<< i don't have a facebook account
18:38:52 <oklofok> because it's coincidence day?
18:38:57 <oklofok> i've always loved the smell
18:39:06 <Taneb> Or possibly because some of my friends smoke
18:39:09 <oklofok> but i'm not very good at doing things
18:39:29 <oklofok> in the sense that i usually don't really do anything.
18:40:04 <oklofok> at least it feels that way
18:40:44 <oklofok> and oh wow do i love the high cigs give you, way better than weed and alcohol
18:43:53 <oklofok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecO6uWCEgec&NR=1 xD
18:44:19 <zzo38> What are the dimensions of the bars in POSTNET?
18:45:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:46:30 <itidus20> hagb4rd, is your point that the first 3d shooters are more awesome than the ones which followed?
18:46:56 <oklofok> what was the first 3d shooter?
18:47:02 <oklofok> i mean the first one that had 3d physics
18:47:02 * oerjan is worried about a proliferation of fake swatters
18:47:08 <hagb4rd> at least for about 10 -12 years
18:47:13 <oklofok> anyone have a time machine?
18:47:35 <oklofok> oh wait i can actually get to the future myself
18:47:51 <olsner> just sit back and wait :>
18:47:58 <Taneb> By sitting in a broken oven
18:47:59 <hagb4rd> no we just have an archive
18:48:40 <oklofok> so i'll just come back and report on the first 3d shooter when they make it.
18:48:47 <itidus20> hagb4rd: I have become aware in my thoughts that software developers tend to take credit for improvements caused by hardware
18:49:01 <hagb4rd> the point is.. ih this guys were still livin, hell.. what would they out of the machines of today? ..maybe they'd turn them off
18:49:58 <itidus20> hagb4rd: are you happy with 6fps? im a little confused where you actually stand on this
18:50:24 <hagb4rd> okay.. let there be ten, and yes.. look at the first games in 90s
18:50:54 <hagb4rd> and then back to this awesome atari game, what was it called?
18:51:32 <hagb4rd> a mean frames per second ;)
18:52:21 <hagb4rd> this one smells like...beer
18:52:50 <oerjan> <Taneb> Can you make Lambdabot call itself?
18:52:57 <oerjan> you can chain commands somewhat
18:53:36 <hagb4rd> and i'm still waiting for you guys io implement this planet processing engine for my elite sequel
18:53:51 <oklofok> oh speaking of oerjan, tswett: why did you never tell me what you've learned? :\
18:54:17 <oerjan> @@ @run 3 + @read @run '5' : @show 9*2
18:54:56 <oerjan> @@ @read @run '5' : @show 9*2
18:55:13 <oerjan> @@ @run 3 + @read @run '5' : @show @run 9*2
18:55:17 <tswett> I've learned... mathematics.
18:55:28 <tswett> Specifically, things from analysis and algebra.
18:55:30 <oerjan> @@ @read @run '5' : @show @run 9*2
18:55:40 <oklofok> what have you learned about algebra?
18:55:49 <oerjan> hm that's not what i was going for
18:55:58 <tswett> I haven't learned what an algebra is.
18:56:13 <oklofok> you have learned no definitions for the term "algebra"?
18:56:19 <oerjan> @@ @run 3 + (@read (@run '5' : (@show (@run 9*2))))
18:56:34 <tswett> Well, I learned what an algebra for a monad is. But not in class.
18:56:36 <hagb4rd> we wish we could have him that far, but ..ya know always busy
18:57:01 <oklofok> i still don't really know what monads are in math
18:57:23 <oklofok> i'm not really smart enough for category theory
18:57:24 <Taneb> They're tribes who move from place to place
18:57:31 <tswett> Oh, they're just this thing equipped with that thing such that yonder thing commutes.
18:57:53 <tswett> Anyway, I learned that at GVSU, "ring" means "pseudoring".
18:58:03 <hagb4rd> modands is used to impress human resources @ 1st case
18:58:20 <oklofok> are you familiar with the idea of having a set S and a set of operations with type S^n -> S for various n?
18:58:37 <oklofok> that's one of the definitions for an algebra
18:59:11 <oklofok> but it can mean all kinds of other stuff as well
18:59:19 <oklofok> what's your favorite theorem in algebra?
18:59:24 <tswett> That sounds like it's almost the definition of an algebraic structure.
18:59:41 <oklofok> or subtheory that you enjoy but can't quite reduce into one main theorem
18:59:48 <oklofok> tswett: yeah those are called algebras
19:00:27 <tswett> Anyway, I don't really have a favorite theorem in algebra.
19:00:42 <oklofok> but an algebra is also when you have a vector space but you can multiply vectors afaiu
19:00:46 <coppro> my favorite theorem is the various compactness theorem
19:00:55 <hagb4rd> there are no structires out there but the ones we might have tried to engrave in stone!
19:00:55 <tswett> How about... the matrix theorem.
19:00:58 <Taneb> I like the axiom of choice
19:01:07 <tswett> I don't know of any theorem called "the matrix theorem", but I would probably like it.
19:01:27 <tswett> I like the axiom of constructibility. It answers a lot of questions.
19:01:41 <oklofok> i guess my favorite algebra stuff is in semigroup theory, idempotents and all that shit
19:01:42 <Taneb> "Any sci-fi movie with Keanu Reaves made post-2000 sucks"
19:01:51 <Taneb> The Matrix Theorem
19:01:58 <oklofok> especially inverse semigroups
19:02:20 <tswett> You know, I like free objects.
19:02:40 <oklofok> is the axiom of constructability "that object of yours? yeah it exists all right."
19:02:49 <coppro> oklofok: I've heard square matrices of a given dimension referred to as 'linear algebras' with reference to their properties as a vector space plus the multiplication operation (or, similarly, linear maps on a given vector space, being themselves vectors in a different space, form a linear algebra with composition)
19:02:59 <tswett> oklofok: nah, it says that every set is constructible.
19:03:43 <coppro> I like the interesting number theorem
19:03:53 <Taneb> That's interesting
19:03:58 <coppro> Theorem: every number is interesting
19:04:00 <oklofok> coppro: well i dunno what the consensus is on these terms, i don't think there really is one, but that would certainly make sense, and is what i'm referring to.
19:04:13 <tswett> I disagree with the interesting number theorem. I think the smallest uninteresting number is 217.
19:04:34 <oklofok> what's the matrix theorem? can't find it
19:04:40 <coppro> Proof: Consider the set of non-interesting numbers. If it is non-empty, pick the least element under some ordering.
19:04:49 <Taneb> tswett: That's a centred hexagon number
19:05:02 <tswett> Taneb: so? I don't know what those are.
19:05:09 <coppro> This element is the least non-interesting number under that ordering, which is interesting
19:05:13 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centered_hexagonal_number
19:05:23 <tswett> oklofok: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+matrix+theorem%22
19:05:24 <coppro> Thus we have a contradiction, and the set of non-interesting numbers must be empty
19:06:00 <tswett> Taneb: well, that's a pretty boring property.
19:06:06 <Taneb> Recreation mathematics: more addictive and worse for your health than cocaine
19:06:16 <oerjan> <oklofok> what's your favorite theorem in algebra? <-- i like that subdirect product of subdirectly irreducible algebras theorem
19:06:56 <oklofok> that's pretty damn neat alright
19:07:03 <itidus20> hagb4rd: I am glad you showed these fps videos. Anyway I think that the fps genre is losing creativity.
19:07:12 <oklofok> the theorem being that gives you all algebras
19:07:15 <coppro> man, next term is going to be interesting
19:07:29 <coppro> I'm going to have a linear algebra class that I actually attend
19:07:32 <coppro> last term's class sucked
19:08:16 <oklofok> i had to learn linear algebra before taking the course on it because we used a lot of the theory for finite fields in coding theory
19:08:17 <oerjan> oklofok: i once used it to prove that kripke models work for intuitionistic logic via heyting algebras
19:08:41 <Taneb> The seven Huzita-Hatori axioms
19:08:43 <oklofok> you talked about doing some stuff with heyting algebras but i still don't really get what heyting algebras re so
19:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <hagb4rd> and i'm still waiting for you guys io implement this planet processing engine for my elite sequel
19:09:08 <oerjan> oklofok: basically heyting algebras are to intuitionistic logic what boolean algebras are to boolean logic
19:09:17 <Taneb> Why bother? Just make Oolite plugins
19:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <tswett> I disagree with the interesting number theorem. I think the smallest uninteresting number is 217.
19:09:45 <oklofok> i can't actually see what that means but i'll memorize that factoid for now! :P
19:10:54 <Taneb> I think the most interesting number is 12
19:11:06 <oklofok> tswett: i don't think there are any relevant hits on that google page
19:12:14 <oklofok> oerjan: i only know about heyting algebras from burris and sankappanavar's "a fun little course in universal algebra" and it was just in a list of examples, dunno if there'd've been theory on them later on
19:12:28 <oklofok> they have a lot of stuff on boolean algebras, should prolly read that at some point
19:12:38 <oerjan> oklofok: basically T is a theorem of intuitionistic logic iff T = 1 is a valid equation for heyting algebras, which is exactly the same as for boolean logic/algebras
19:13:30 <Taneb> What ways more, a pound of gold or a pound of feathers?
19:13:46 <oerjan> Taneb: a pound of feathers
19:14:04 <Taneb> Can you explain why?
19:14:18 <oklofok> but then what's intuitionistic logic here, (a -> b -> c) -> ((a -> b) -> (a -> c)) and (a -> (b -> a))?
19:14:45 <oerjan> oklofok: well those would be theorems yes
19:15:14 <oklofok> (a -> (b -> c)) -> ((a -> b) -> (a -> c)) and (a -> (b -> a))?
19:15:35 <oerjan> oklofok: in intuitionistic logic you include more than ->, because the operators are much more independent of each other than in boolean logic
19:15:42 <Taneb> Gold is weighed in Troy pounds and feathers in avoirdupois
19:15:59 <oerjan> so and, or, not as well
19:16:12 <Taneb> avoirdupois is 12.53% heavier than troy
19:16:13 <hagb4rd> <Taneb>Why bother? Just make Oolite plugins <-- will do, at least for the less math-dependent parts.. still enought to do.. find nice ways to let my spaceilots having a good time interacting with its vivid world.. how bout a lambda bot in the boardcomuter? :D
19:16:25 <oklofok> well non-intuitionistic (you said boolean, does that mean classical?) logic has not as well
19:16:37 <oerjan> oklofok: of course you can probably find axioms for the -> fragment like with boolean logic
19:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, not to mention the fact that it depends if you're talking about pound mass or pound weight.
19:17:04 <Taneb> Assuming their in the same gravity, does that make a difference?
19:17:15 <oklofok> yeah metamath uses those two as the intuitionistic axioms
19:17:26 <oklofok> and then there's umm (not a -> not b) -> (b -> a)
19:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, ah, but you don't explicitly state that assumption.
19:18:06 <Taneb> Where else are you gonna find both feathers and gold?
19:18:25 <hagb4rd> but this doesn't fit on gravity
19:19:05 <Taneb> But feathers aren't
19:19:19 <itidus20> hag: I had some ideas about planets in 2d.
19:19:44 <oerjan> oklofok: actually one simplification is possible: also in intuitionistic logic not a = (a -> false)
19:19:50 <hagb4rd> like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8_-78G8D_I&NR=1
19:19:56 <itidus20> The first idea I had is that if you walk far enough to the left or right in 2d you can come up on the other side
19:20:37 <hagb4rd> 10 years later we had videos and spites of them (like in wing commander)
19:20:51 <oklofok> itidus20: you mean you came up with the idea of somehow making R^2 into a torus?
19:21:01 <oklofok> or do you just mean the torus?
19:21:08 <hagb4rd> but no matter how long you wre riding ..you didnt get there
19:21:20 <Taneb> Gonna get some eats now
19:21:28 -!- Taneb has changed nick to TanebIsEating.
19:21:31 <Phantom_Hoover> hagb4rd, suggest you look at Infinity: The Quest for Earth and despair.
19:21:33 <itidus20> i am happy to admit i am full of crap and can laugh at myself about it
19:21:37 <oklofok> joining the left and right sides can be done like that, or you can add a point at infinity whose open balls are the complements of closed balls around the origin
19:21:51 <oklofok> by "like that" i mean the torus
19:22:19 <itidus20> oklofok: when I was thinking about it what I really wanted to achieve is to do it without a sense of cheating the player
19:23:09 <oklofok> let's forget the player for now and discuss this in the context of topology okay
19:23:45 <itidus20> R^2 is already over my head, but I can still carry on
19:24:45 <oklofok> well in that case, a way to do it without cheating the player is the torus
19:25:15 <oklofok> torus = take a finite square and glue the ends together. this is done in many 2d games.
19:25:36 <oklofok> in comet busters, the comets would come out the other side when they went over the border for instance
19:25:52 <itidus20> but so this wasn't entirely enough for me. there was more. i wanted to allow the player to "dig through the planet"
19:25:54 <oklofok> but i suppose you want something fancier than that
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19:26:29 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: a game way older than you, i just assume it's clear what the game is about
19:26:33 <itidus20> humm i will make a quick paint pic
19:26:34 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s4G1J9Hiwk&feature=related
19:26:40 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: i haven't played asteroids, so i dunno if they had a torus
19:26:49 <hagb4rd> this looks almost nice (planet renedering
19:26:49 * oerjan wonders how many 2d games do klein bottle gluing instead
19:27:05 <oklofok> comet busters came with my windows 3.11
19:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hagb4rd, seriously, just look at the tech demos for Infinity.
19:27:49 * Sgeo remembbers some game on his computer called... Tempest, I think
19:28:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, sometimes I think you do nothing *but* remembering games on your computer.
19:28:51 <Sgeo> Sometimes I play games that will someday eventually just be games I remember playing on my computer.
19:28:54 <Sgeo> See: Minecraft
19:29:06 <oerjan> now combine that with CP symmetry and you can have some interesting matter/antimatter effects...
19:29:31 <oklofok> so say moving left = moving down the klein tube, and up = around it. then the gluing is, you take a square and if you go up you appear in the same column on the bottom, but going left, you appear on the right, mirrored over the middle
19:29:35 -!- TanebIsEating has changed nick to Taneb.
19:30:01 <itidus20> http://oi51.tinypic.com/nl4u1v.jpg
19:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, the laws of physics stay the same if you turn matter into antimatter and swap the parity.
19:30:12 <Taneb> Just typed "Password" instead of my password
19:30:19 <oerjan> oklofok: means the symmetry where mirroring turns matter into antimatter
19:30:44 <oerjan> it's not exactly preserved, but _most_ reaction obey it
19:30:45 <itidus20> in this pic you can sort of see the idea of "digging" through but the first problem arises. it looks very odd if the player does not turn his head around as he falls
19:31:36 <itidus20> so i had this idea that the center of the planet could be another torus , to borrow your word
19:31:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:32:06 <itidus20> no wait, maybe that wasn't the idea
19:32:08 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:32:22 <oerjan> (the CPT symmetry where you reverse time as well is still not known to be violated, and the math of quantum mechanics + relativity is supposedly such that it would be very strange if it was)
19:32:34 <oerjan> i don't know the proof myself
19:32:34 <itidus20> anyway.. i thought.. when you reach the center of the planet while falling through, you should reach a dark screen where your path follows a U shape
19:32:53 <itidus20> and you start falling upwards without actually turning upside down
19:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, suggest you read http://everything2.com/title/Using+Asteroids+to+explain+the+topological+classification+of+2-manifolds
19:34:54 -!- shachaf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:34:58 -!- shachaf has joined.
19:37:32 <itidus20> (still reading the article, even while I type this) my more general theorum is that in practice the earth looks flat. It never actually looks like a sphere to anyone standing on it. So it should never have to look round in a video game.
19:38:03 <oklofok> looks like a good enough article
19:38:21 <oerjan> itidus20: what about on mountains near the ocean?
19:38:27 <Sgeo> itidus20, what if someon finds a way to lift off into seep space in the game?
19:39:04 <oklofok> itidus20: you want a surface like that of earth's, but infinitely deep?
19:39:49 <itidus20> well first I imagined a giant circle. and I thought, how big does the circle have to be so that it looks flat
19:40:14 <Sgeo> itidus20, it wouldn't be an absolute size, but a size relative to the observer
19:40:27 <oklofok> you could have a 3-dimensional ball and remove its middle, then have coordinates shrink as you go down to make it appear infinitely deep
19:40:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus20> (still reading the article, even while I type this) my more general theorum is that in practice the earth looks flat. It never actually looks like a sphere to anyone standing on it. So it should never have to look round in a video game.
19:40:37 <oklofok> remove its center point i mean
19:41:01 <oklofok> cool thing about such a world: the earth would be the center of the universe
19:41:07 <Taneb> Aren't they then called annuli
19:42:05 <itidus20> oklofok, well i decided that as you reach the center you reach a black background and your sprite follows a U path and when it goes up again it is falling upwards to some other point. so i guess that is infinite depth.
19:42:19 <oerjan> Taneb: no, that's a ring shape and is not topologically a torus at all
19:42:32 <oklofok> itidus20: i think it's better to prevent reaching the middle altogether
19:42:45 <oklofok> just have the distance to the center be infinite
19:43:05 <oerjan> a flat torus would not be possible to embed in usual space, but it would _locally_ look like an ordinary flat surface
19:43:23 <Taneb> So, two annuli ontop of eachother?
19:43:33 <Taneb> I don't think I really understand this, do I?
19:43:44 <Taneb> Oh, you mean like a net
19:43:46 <oerjan> Taneb: it's a shape which cannot exist in the real universe
19:44:00 <itidus20> I am full of crap. I am a whole magnitude below mathematically. ^_^
19:44:11 <itidus20> But I think up things from left field.
19:44:19 <oerjan> but whose existence poses no actual mathematical contradiction
19:44:22 <oklofok> if you take the closures of two annuli, and glue together the inner and outer circles, don't you get the torus?
19:44:58 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: take all points you can find arbitrarily good approximations for
19:45:15 <oklofok> that is, if U is a subset of a topological space, its closure is the set of such points
19:45:23 <oklofok> so for the annulus, you'll just add the circles around it
19:45:39 <itidus20> So I was trying to squiash all this into a tile based side scroller (as an idea) which cannot rotate.
19:45:41 <oklofok> (according to wp it's the set of points more than r, but less than R away from 0)
19:46:12 <oerjan> Taneb: imagine a square where the sides are glued to each other, but not by actually bending the square, instead by making the sides be teleportation portals...
19:46:17 <oklofok> (so you'd add points exactly r or R away from 0, and nothing else, as is easy to check if you know how distance is measured in R^2 (pythagorean theorem being the definition))
19:47:34 <Taneb> I think a flat sphere would be trickier
19:47:50 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: did that make sense?
19:47:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklofok> if you take the closures of two annuli, and glue together the inner and outer circles, don't you get the torus?
19:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I think you'd get a torus if you just glued the inner and outer circles.
19:48:22 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: what are the inner and outer circles of the annulus?
19:48:39 <hagb4rd> uh oh al lot for me to read on later, but not to miss actual topcic: the more you get to the sphere the finer is the net.. then comes the transformations.. first of all ther is an irregular noise trasforming the vertexes into rocky landscapes
19:48:41 <Taneb> An annulus is the region between two cocentric circles
19:48:46 <oklofok> for any point on the annulus, you'll find a point even further away from 0
19:48:51 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, how can you ask me definitional questions when you used the same terms?
19:49:13 <hagb4rd> there must be a few more layers of transformations. but! :
19:49:21 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: well "outer and inner circle" makes sense after taking the closure
19:49:29 <oklofok> inner circle = points at distance r
19:49:33 <oklofok> outer = points at distance R
19:49:34 <oerjan> Taneb: yes, that is impossible. it's to do with the plane not being a cover of the sphere - you cannot wrap a plane around a sphere without some exceptional points
19:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: well "outer and inner circle" makes sense after taking the closure
19:49:53 <hagb4rd> after n transformation the landsape in a specific place always looked the same.. we thank you braben & bell
19:49:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But... why do you need the closure in the first place?
19:50:07 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: because otherwise i don't know what those terms mean
19:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it the open circle with radius R less the closed circle with radius r?
19:50:18 <itidus20> ok i guess theres room for compromise
19:50:20 <oklofok> because the points at distance r and R do not belong to the annulus
19:51:03 <oklofok> closure was just a technical term because i wanted to be mathematically precise because that gives me a hard-on.
19:51:15 <itidus20> so what do you do.. make the character change size? :D :D
19:51:24 <oklofok> well because otherwise it's not topologically equivalent to the torus :)
19:51:39 <oklofok> yeah you could just glue together the inner and outer circles, yeah
19:51:53 <itidus20> perhaps as he falls deeper he scales up
19:52:01 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be creased
19:52:07 <oklofok> "<Taneb> So, two annuli ontop of eachother?" "<oerjan> NO"
19:52:19 <oklofok> i was saying "or perhaps yes?"
19:52:31 <itidus20> like a map projection, when a man goes to iceland
19:52:36 <itidus20> his body probably grows larger
19:53:08 <hagb4rd> yea any points run togeter in x the focus
19:53:12 <itidus20> yeah. greenland/iceland is gigantic on most map projections
19:53:25 <Taneb> I used to think Antarctica was HUGE
19:53:29 <oklofok> "<itidus20> perhaps as he falls deeper he scales up" well more like gets smaller
19:53:34 <Taneb> Now I know, it is, but not as much as I thought it was
19:53:46 <oklofok> i guess that might depend on your point of view maybe
19:53:51 <itidus20> phantom, it has occured to me that the missing link could be that the character could actually change size to make it all work
19:54:04 <itidus20> thanks to listening to this conversation
19:54:12 <Taneb> It all makes sense now!
19:54:18 <oerjan> oklofok: but gluing two annuli would give exceptional points at the crease, which doesn't count to me as really flat
19:54:40 <hagb4rd> plenty space left to log this all :)
19:54:49 <Taneb> So, a quadrilateral with opposite sides of equal length is the way to go?
19:54:57 <oklofok> oh okay i thought you were just talking topology
19:55:00 <itidus20> ok hagb4rd: like suppose uh.. Zelda.. was played on a typical map projection.
19:55:16 <oerjan> but it gives me an even weirder idea: do like i said previously and glue the outer an inner edge of an annulus with teleportation portals, but _which expand or shrink you as appropriately_
19:55:19 <itidus20> now when he is standing on iceland his body will be stretched :D
19:55:24 <zzo38> Why is Canada Post barcode strange?
19:56:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the inner circle is smaller than the outer, so if they are to be glued identically you have to change scale while crossing them...
19:56:17 <oklofok> itidus20: i was thinking maybe you could have a metric such that on every level of depth inside earth, you have a surface with the same circumference as earth, but you have infinitely many concentric balls "on top" of each other
19:57:08 <itidus20> oklofok, i really did actually commit some of this to paper months ago.. but i am clueless on topology
19:57:08 <oerjan> this is of course going to get ugly if anything manages to cross it outwards enough times...
19:57:21 <hagb4rd> yea but it's alle processed in realtime dude.. not just stated or persistant
19:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, oh, so you only scale when crossing the border.
19:57:54 <oklofok> easy to imagine this for a 2d world, just take a cylinder that's infinitely tall, digging makes you go down, walking forward makes you go around it
19:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> So in other words it's identical to Asteroids if things scale linearly when they move down.
19:58:30 <Taneb> Is this still the Elite sequel?
19:58:42 <itidus20> oklofok: well the deeper paradox of falling through earth is that your up vector has to change at some point
19:58:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh i see itidus20 was already bringing up similar ideas. btw this reminds me of a valerian comic...
19:59:04 <oklofok> itidus20: unless you just fall infinitely?
19:59:15 <itidus20> so I decided let him fall in U shape
19:59:24 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure there's some groundbreaking pseudogeometry mathematician who would kill to see this log
19:59:26 <hagb4rd> are you talking about affine transformation to reduce z axis,?
20:00:12 <Phantom_Hoover> hagb4rd, dunno, I just mean that distance scales linearly when you move up or down, but is preserved when you move over the edge.
20:00:30 <hagb4rd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affine_transformation
20:00:36 <itidus20> because if i didnt say let him fall in a U shape then either the map flips upside down or the character flips upside down and it would look awkward
20:01:09 <itidus20> i also realize that you couldn't actually fall through.. gravity would pin you in the center
20:01:36 <Taneb> Unless you have momentum
20:01:42 <Taneb> e.g., from gravity
20:01:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Across_the_Pathways_of_Space#Funny_Specimens_.28Droles_de_Specimens.29
20:01:57 <oklofok> "<Taneb> I'm pretty sure there's some groundbreaking pseudogeometry mathematician who would kill to see this log" <<< pseudogeometry would be a great name for topology
20:01:57 <itidus20> the idea of falling through is really just to ensure that the planet is real
20:02:37 <itidus20> anyone who quotes that evil man behind general semantics who says the map is not the territory is to be slain >:)
20:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus20> i also realize that you couldn't actually fall through.. gravity would pin you in the center
20:03:12 <hagb4rd> dont you remember how hard it was to brake soon eough to make a landing? autopilot noobs :p
20:03:26 <Taneb> Unless you had some sort of thrusters (as you are in a spaceship, I'd assume you would), you'd end up falling down then gliding up the other side
20:03:39 <Taneb> In a distanse that approaches zero
20:03:40 <hagb4rd> otherways you had to go 1 more turn around the sun
20:03:47 <Taneb> Is asymptote the word?
20:04:27 <itidus20> phantom, so uhh.. i don't think any player has any actual reason to dig in a planet. but i think that the idea forces the game to cope with that possibility
20:04:36 <oklofok> if you do something asymptotically, then for any definition of almost doing it, you will eventually be almost doing it.
20:05:18 <Taneb> It averages out to that
20:05:28 <itidus20> does it decrease as you approach the center?
20:06:10 <oerjan> itidus20: basically for a perfectly spherical body, the gravity at a point inside is given by only the part of the body that is further inside from you
20:06:16 <Taneb> I mean, if you just check one side, it'd be 7 or whatever. But because you're being pulled equally in all directions, it's effectively zero
20:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> hagb4rd, there is no gravitational force acting on you at the centre of a planet.
20:06:49 <itidus20> on a related idea. i had this idea of a game of life sort of thing which makes connected clusters of dots have a mass and hence a gravity and to affect each other
20:06:51 <Taneb> Unless there were significant variance in density throughout the planet
20:06:52 <hagb4rd> gravity is acting on me even if'd be shit out of the universe d
20:07:16 <oerjan> hagb4rd: we are talking total sum of forces here
20:07:19 <Taneb> Which makes it really hard to compute
20:07:26 <oklofok> "<itidus20> on a related idea. i had this idea of a game of life sort of thing which makes connected clusters of dots have a mass and hence a gravity and to affect each other" <<< can i steal this idea and try to do something cool with it next week?
20:07:41 <Taneb> As well as the N-body problem
20:07:50 <hagb4rd> at least, in this encapsuled sim
20:08:08 <itidus20> all of my ideas are free to do whatever you like with as long as i get to use them myself
20:08:25 <Taneb> But the geometrical centre not necessarily, Phantom_Hoover
20:08:38 <Taneb> Which would make the centre of mass elsewhere
20:08:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, indeed, but a planet will always have them almost exactly the same.
20:08:43 <itidus20> as in, i don't want to get cut off from my own ideas
20:08:44 <oklofok> i like the idea of gravity for a ca
20:09:04 <Taneb> Unless the player starts moving dirt from one side of the planet to the other
20:09:17 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: i doubt he tried it in the way i'm thinking
20:09:25 <itidus20> so a tetris piece would have a mass of 4
20:09:29 <oklofok> i'm thinking an actual ca that enforces a gravity
20:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, elliott was trying to get relativity to work.
20:10:00 <oklofok> so that two clusters of 1's would attract
20:10:06 <itidus20> but if 2 tetris pieces bumped together, they would become one object with a mass of 8
20:10:20 <oerjan> Taneb: the shell theorem only works if the planet consists of perfectly spherical shells, naturally
20:10:22 <oklofok> yeah i was thinking some kind of gravitons
20:10:38 <hagb4rd> if think now you are ready to turn off autopilot and totally get lost behind beteigeuze c
20:10:55 <oklofok> 1's need to be preserved in number, and 0's should be a quiescent state, other states can do whatever they like
20:10:57 <oerjan> *perfectly uniform spherical
20:11:01 <itidus20> for me, diagonal connections in CA's (i love the acronyms you guy use so casually) is good enough to share mass
20:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> Taneb: the shell theorem only works if the planet consists of perfectly spherical shells, naturally
20:11:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well those are the ones that integrate to give 0 gravity inside
20:12:09 <oklofok> itidus20: as i love telling people, i get payed to play with ca all day so acronymizing it gets pretty casual
20:12:11 <hagb4rd> we can reduce complexity to make it fit on a single floppy!!!
20:12:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't know whether those are the _only_ surfaces giving 0 gravity everywhere inside though
20:12:44 <itidus20> oklofok: ok heres another idea i had (i was on a roll that day)
20:13:12 <itidus20> a chess game CA where the piece type is determined by the pieces around it
20:13:46 <hagb4rd> unlike other things this one won't let me stop and wonder
20:13:48 <Taneb> No wait, that's different
20:14:00 <itidus20> well it would be just a CA... but the pieces would exist as uhh
20:14:01 <Taneb> A CA's a cellular automoton, right?
20:14:13 <itidus20> the pieces would be implied by the rules of the CA I guess..
20:14:41 <itidus20> so say you had a cell on its own.. that could be a pawn
20:14:47 <oklofok> a continuous shift-commuting self-map of S^Z where S is a finite set and Z are the integers. Z can also be Z^n for some n, for instance for gravity 2 is a natural choice
20:15:13 <oklofok> itidus20: chess pieces are not really mathematically interesting
20:15:19 <itidus20> i actually drew up some ideas of possible rules for which pieces are which
20:15:56 <oklofok> a lonely queen on the plane wouldn't know what to do!
20:16:05 <itidus20> oh.. well.. ok.. so you start with a regular game of life
20:16:09 <oklofok> also how far can a queen move?
20:16:29 <hagb4rd> oklofok.. the problem you have IS a real problem.. and youreflect it that nice. no'ones sure its gonna ex- or implode
20:16:55 <oklofok> hagb4rd: can you clarify a bit?
20:16:56 <itidus20> ok lets say its not quite game of life.. lets say you have 2 teams .. so trinary state
20:17:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes wikipedia's shell theorem article proves it from gauss' law. but the spherical symmetry is still essential to get 0 at every point rather than just as the total integral
20:17:34 <itidus20> i never really thought about it that way
20:17:59 <oklofok> two teams? a CA that has two players is still just a CA, since they are deterministic. are we talking tilings maybe? that is, nondeterministic CA
20:18:19 <itidus20> well.. you would have a dead cell, a black cell, and a white cell
20:19:03 <hagb4rd> istnt it an approximation at least good enough to to wonder what keeps bananas growing with this specific irregular way
20:19:19 <oklofok> i certainly like the idea of alternation for tilings
20:19:20 <itidus20> so at the end of a generation the player can select 1 cell.. whose type is determined by the cells around it
20:19:52 <oklofok> (in the sense of an alternating turing machine)
20:20:01 <itidus20> and in all likelihood it is now a new kind of piece having moved
20:20:24 <itidus20> and lets say you can capture an enemy cell by moving onto it
20:20:40 <oklofok> okay, well that's a particular game that's kind of weird
20:20:43 <oklofok> dunno what to ask about it
20:20:44 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ku5G4ovnUU
20:20:59 <oklofok> and again, how does a queen move?
20:21:02 <oklofok> can you go arbitrarily far
20:21:32 <itidus20> i was discussing that very question in here last night about how far can a chesspiece move
20:21:34 <Taneb> On a pseudogeometrical torus?
20:21:36 <oklofok> if you can, then the set of valid games might not be closed
20:22:03 <Taneb> I think in this context finite would do better
20:22:06 <oklofok> valid drawings of playings i mean
20:22:21 <oerjan> The Queen That Went Too Far
20:22:46 <itidus20> so the actual pieces are represented as rules of neighborhoods
20:23:17 <itidus20> and the fun of the design is determining which neighborhoods map to which pieces
20:23:49 <itidus20> I came up with a set but I never did anything with this idea
20:24:09 <Taneb> Changing the subject somewhat, is it possible to construct a physical machine that did functional programming at its lowest level?
20:26:28 <itidus20> The idea could also be extended into fairy chess.
20:27:42 <hagb4rd> or even result in resignation.
20:29:27 <Taneb> Some sort of von Neumman architecture?
20:29:43 <oerjan> Taneb: "And the next command is the one after that." "that" being _both_ the interpolated commands?
20:30:03 <oerjan> ok then i think i understand
20:35:49 <oklofok> how about: you have a finite set of states S, partitioned into E and U, the existential and the universal states. now for a point x \in S^Z, you can define its E-successors by changing all the cells of x in an E state to their possible successors, and its U-successors similarly; there's a local rule that tells you what changes are legal. now, to every sequence s in {"E", "U"}^N partitions S^Z we get a subset of points from which the game goes on foreve
20:35:59 <oklofok> i'll paste the latter half just in case
20:36:00 <oklofok> there's a local rule that tells you what changes are legal. now, to every sequence s in {"E", "U"}^N partitions S^Z we get a subset of points from which the game goes on forever, say for EUEUEUEU... this means from x, for some choice of new cell values by E, for any choice of any cell by U, for some choice of...
20:36:26 <oklofok> one way to have alternation but i'm not sure that's the most natural thing to do.
20:37:17 <oklofok> *now, to every sequence s in {"E", "U"}^N we can associate the set of points of S^Z from which the game goes on forever,
20:38:10 <itidus20> working on CAs it must be tough to resist the topic i came up with.
20:39:22 <zzo38> What is your opinion of the way the List of ideas has now been formatted on esolang wiki?
20:40:04 <hagb4rd> this tends at least to an idea i had of it..
20:40:18 <itidus20> so, on looking at reduceron page, I feel my ineptitude. what's the best language to learn functional programming concepts?
20:41:03 <hagb4rd> without beeing able to implement it an alg0
20:41:10 <Taneb> http://byob.berkely.edu
20:41:53 <itidus20> i have tried reading up on lambda calc once but i never quite got it
20:42:04 <Taneb> That site's got a tutorial
20:42:14 <Taneb> It's how I leant it
20:42:25 <zzo38> Do you know of some Icehouse+Tarot games? I have read about one such game called Gnostica. However, I have neither Icehouse nor Tarot.
20:42:30 <itidus20> oh nice it's visual programming
20:42:41 <Taneb> Yeah, it's based on Scratch
20:42:59 <itidus20> I won't fuck the room again by my ideas about visual programming.
20:43:17 <Taneb> It has functional bits in it
20:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> By which I mean it's not functional by any stretch of the imagination.
20:43:35 <oklofok> the original idea of course was that s = EEE... would give you SFT's, in some sense. but that's not really happening atm...
20:43:47 <Taneb> Functional bits means you can learn functional programming with it
20:44:10 <itidus20> because if you think my ideas about torus worlds, gravity CAs, chess CAs make a mess. then visual programming is just as bad
20:48:47 <oklofok> you may have already supplied me with next week's research topic (by putting games and CA close to each other), this is actually something i've been wanting to do for ages but i had to work on my master's thesis last time so it never got anywhere
20:49:14 <itidus20> I smash them together like a particle collider
20:49:40 <oklofok> gravity + ca is certainly interesting but you could ofc only publish it as a joke
20:50:09 <oklofok> i mean the answer to my particular question of whether you can implement gravity behavior with a ca
20:50:25 <lambdabot> "Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Ha...
20:50:29 <itidus20> Basically I see things as existing in academic space and entertainment space.
20:50:56 <oklofok> but actually a somewhat similar (much simpler) question was recently solved in a famous 150 or so page paper in the 1d case, i just realized
20:51:14 <itidus20> I take inspiration from people like lewis carroll
20:51:45 <Taneb> I take inspiration from JRR Tolkein
20:51:54 <oklofok> the academic space is a subset of the entertainment space
20:52:04 <Taneb> I say it's the other way round
20:52:09 <itidus20> this may be off topic, but, i had one chess idea about a castle and a forest
20:52:18 <zzo38> I would say the spaces overlap but neither is a subset of the other
20:52:22 <itidus20> the idea is you can enter the forest and emerge from it whereever you like
20:52:32 <oklofok> (i can't imagine any chess related idea being mathematically interesting really)
20:53:07 <itidus20> there was something about guards on the castle. i dunno exactly how it went
20:53:10 <Taneb> (A lot of people would say mathematically interesting is a tautology)
20:53:35 <oerjan> oklofok: well there is the question of complexity class
20:53:42 <itidus20> oklofok, well to me, chess is a CA in disguise.
20:54:12 <itidus20> It just needs to be teased out from its disguise
20:54:29 <Taneb> When you try to make one talk
20:54:40 <oklofok> oerjan: does this sound familiar: take two topological spaces U and T and a point x in T. stick U in place of x.
20:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus20> oklofok, well to me, chess is a CA in disguise.
20:54:59 <oklofok> assume additional stuff for U and T if useful
20:55:12 <itidus20> hoover, well it could be deterministic :D
20:55:14 <Taneb> It's a phase sppace
20:55:30 <Taneb> It's deterministic in the fifth dimension
20:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, no, it would literally be the most boring thing in the world.
20:55:41 <oerjan> oklofok: i'm not sure if it has a name but it's a pretty obvious thing to do...
20:55:45 <oklofok> but i was thinking open sets are generated by those of U, and those of T with x replaced by the whole U
20:55:57 <itidus20> replace the players with a rule for evolving the chessboard closer to an end.
20:56:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, isn't that a fibre— no, wait, it's just a single point.
20:56:24 <oklofok> "<itidus20> oklofok, well to me, chess is a CA in disguise." <<< i don't see it that way at all
20:56:34 <oerjan> oklofok: you'd probably want U to be closed as a subspace, since {x} is (assuming hausdorff spaces)
20:56:40 <zzo38> I had an idea once, chess with two time dinensions.
20:56:55 <Taneb> I once tried to do battleships as a CA
20:57:06 <Taneb> I didn't get very far
20:57:19 <oklofok> oerjan: well it would be obviously
20:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, protip: games are universally nondeterministic.
20:57:35 <Taneb> Hence why I didn't get very far
20:57:58 <oklofok> because T - {x} is still open
20:58:11 <oerjan> oklofok: also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgery_theory which is somewhat different but feels related
20:58:13 <oklofok> U would be a clopen set tho so hmm.
20:58:17 <itidus20> theres a mix of ideas that come into play. a binary CA is easily computable and could be said to be properly reduced. or more optimized etc, however -- the factor of human comprehension is always important
20:59:04 <itidus20> humans comprehend chess pieces easily. so are they not better for humans to manipulate than binary tiles
20:59:24 <itidus20> I think there is a tradeoff involved with no perfect answer.
20:59:35 <oklofok> oerjan: i should certainly read some literature on this stuff
20:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, they're fundamentally different abstractions.
20:59:41 <oklofok> on it, but progress is slow
20:59:46 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
20:59:51 <oklofok> since i constantly come up with new problems to solve :\
21:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, meanwhile I still have over a year until university.
21:00:37 <itidus20> well chess has more cell states {pawn, king, queen, knight, bishop, rook} x {white, black}
21:00:51 <Taneb> Don't forget unoccupied
21:00:54 <zzo38> itidus20: And empty spaces.
21:01:16 <itidus20> ( {pawn, king, queen, knight, bishop, rook} x {white, black} ) + {blank}
21:01:28 <oerjan> oklofok: mind you this is not a field i know much more than the name of either
21:01:49 <Sgeo> Where does location fit into that model?
21:01:57 <oklofok> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, meanwhile I still have over a year until university." <<< math?
21:02:11 <Taneb> Location is inherent, Sgeo
21:02:12 <oerjan> oklofok: that cell attachment thing mentioned in that article sounds promising but there was no link
21:02:19 <itidus20> there are some issues with that model though.. thats true
21:02:28 <itidus20> it is wise to note that theres things missing
21:02:29 <Taneb> By which I mean that these cells are all in the correct location
21:02:33 <zzo38> You could also have additional states if you want to keep track of en passan and castling as cell states as well.
21:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, look, CAs are not well viewed as entities moving around a space.
21:03:05 <Sgeo> King-castled and king-notcastled
21:03:05 <itidus20> langton's ant is one exception
21:03:15 <Sgeo> Rook-castled and Rook-notcastled
21:03:17 <oklofok> i guess actually the "correct" topology is having T's open sets with x replaced by open sets of U
21:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> There are many exceptions, but they are in the minority.
21:03:33 <itidus20> and human intervention is even worse :P
21:03:55 <oerjan> oklofok: interestingly googling "cell attachment topology" is not enough to restrict the hits to mathematics :P
21:04:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The point is that trying to start viewing CAs that way will just confuse you later on.
21:04:07 <itidus20> like in the movie dark city.. when a generation has finished secret activiies of the night adjust the city
21:04:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> oklofok: interestingly googling "cell attachment topology" is not enough to restrict the hits to mathematics :P
21:04:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Topologies of biological cells attached to each other?
21:04:27 <oklofok> assuming hausdorff space you will then get the topology of T by taking the open sets of this thing but "rounding elements of U up to x"
21:04:29 <zzo38> Only the rooks need to keep track of castling restrictions, not the king. If the king moves, both rooks change to the one unabled to be castling.
21:04:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yeah something like that
21:05:03 <itidus20> I force myself to be iconoclastic and autodidactic in this.
21:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, and yes, as Sgeo points out, chess has a certain amount of hidden state as well.
21:05:18 <itidus20> yeah i forgot those hidden states, but they can be unhidden :D
21:05:21 <zzo38> Chess doesn't have hidden information.
21:05:22 <Sgeo> Hmm, why both rooks, instead of a random rook?
21:05:34 <itidus20> they were indeed left out of my model
21:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Looking at the board, it's impossible to tell if the king has castled.
21:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, and kludges are exactly what you were trying to avoid.
21:06:10 <Taneb> Unless you had been paying any attention to the game
21:06:12 <zzo38> Sgeo: Both rooks just seems like a better way to do it, it simplifys some things
21:06:24 <itidus20> pre-castled king could be red and yellow
21:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You said yourself you were trying to make a natural chess CA; that is impossible.
21:06:42 <Sgeo> itidus20, why are you trying to assign colors to this?
21:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Unless you had been paying any attention to the game
21:07:03 <Sgeo> Game of Life isn't described in terms of black and white, just "living" and "dead"
21:07:04 <zzo38> I think the kings don't need castling state, only the rooks do.
21:07:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Hidden state means that you can't work out the future moves of the game based purely on its present state.
21:07:14 <Taneb> I'm saying it isn't hidden information
21:07:21 <itidus20> sgeo: because I am trying to not take sides
21:07:31 <Sgeo> ...take sides?
21:07:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: Sometimes black/white, sometimes different colors, by standard called "living" and "dead", although I prefer "on" and "off".
21:07:49 <Taneb> In a game of chess, both players know whether a king has moved, and whether a pawn has just moved twice
21:07:50 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I'm defining 'hidden state' to be state not ascertainable by looking at the position of pieces on the board at a given time.
21:07:50 <itidus20> i have proven that you could represent the hidden information if you wanted to
21:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Because the positions of pieces on the board at a given time is all you have in the CA.
21:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, yes, and I have already said that it rules out an elegant representation, which is what you were trying to make.
21:08:39 <itidus20> but i could multiply the states by a few more booleans. i know its ugly
21:08:43 <zzo38> I have also described a few ways in which you can put these information part of the board state, by adding new kind of pieces for this information
21:09:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well with a CA there is no trouble adding some extra piece types to encode the necessary hidden state
21:09:02 <zzo38> But still what you do not tell, is which player plays next.
21:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, yes, and I have already said that it rules out an elegant representation, which is what you were trying to make.
21:09:33 <itidus20> i never ever ever thought of this before though.. colored pieces
21:09:37 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, define "elegant"
21:09:39 <Taneb> yeah, I'm redacting my comment about learning functional programming with BYOB
21:09:49 <zzo38> Now there is 2 kind of rooks, castling allowed rooks, and castling disallowed rooks.
21:09:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: chess _already_ has pieces which change
21:10:06 <itidus20> Ok I admit that I use no true scotsman logic. I believe it has some value.
21:10:21 <zzo38> And 2 kind of pawns, the kind which has just been moved two spaces, and the normal kind.
21:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, one in which the cells are completely analogous to the pieces on the board.
21:10:43 <oerjan> itidus20: yeah everyone knows Phantom_Hoover is no true scotsman
21:10:49 <Sgeo> Make a CA whose neighborhood also extends backwards in time to the initial state
21:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> Make a CA whose neighborhood also extends backwards in time to the initial state
21:11:13 <Sgeo> Or is that too insane?
21:11:14 <itidus20> there is nothing wrong with revising an argument as long as the intention is good
21:11:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:12:02 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: CA have initial states?
21:12:19 <oklofok> i'm going to have to be surprised by this claim!
21:12:23 <itidus20> Some of my best chat friends have been Scots
21:12:33 <oklofok> you mean no initial configuration or what?
21:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, I mean something along the lines that each generation has no idea when the initial state was.
21:13:10 <oerjan> oklofok: in the beginning there was the garden of eden
21:13:15 <Phantom_Hoover> The transition rules are time-invariant, in other words.
21:13:16 <itidus20> sgeo: the buddha said that you can't do it and you will go mad trying.
21:13:31 <Taneb> We're all mad here
21:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what was that Alice in Wonderland quote again?
21:14:12 <Sgeo> Can the transition rules mention a specific state? Hmm, that doesn't work, initial chess state is NOT a garden of eden
21:14:21 <itidus20> Thus back in india 2500 years ago or whatever they were discussing that you will go mad trying to trace back to original causes
21:14:24 * oerjan pours some hatmaking chemicals into Taneb's tea
21:14:37 <oklofok> oerjan: god said, let there not be two asymptotically equal states of the world with the same image, and thus there was a garden of eden.
21:14:43 <Taneb> I can't stand tea!
21:14:48 <itidus20> sgeo, the problem is that chess isn't deterministic. if it was then you could
21:15:00 <oklofok> Sgeo: the whole point of CA is they are continuous, meaning they only depend on a finite amount of cells near them
21:15:08 * Taneb absorbs the aroma of tea
21:15:12 <Sgeo> Ok, so so much for that
21:15:17 * Taneb dies of inhaling hatmaking chemicals
21:15:27 <Taneb> It's a State in South west US
21:15:34 <itidus20> sgeo: I mean, you can't see which piece was the last one to move by looking at a chessboard.
21:15:46 <oklofok> let there be two such states.
21:16:09 <Taneb> A CA is a cellular Automaton, cheater_
21:16:29 <itidus20> also, suppose that a rook moved left, then right, then left... you couldn't determine how far left and right it moved
21:16:31 <Taneb> Just the aftertaste...
21:16:54 <oklofok> cheater__: i just gave the definition a few hours ago
21:17:24 <oklofok> oh right cellular automaton, i can't believe people don't know the abbrev...
21:17:53 <oerjan> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
21:18:41 <itidus20> is that a set theory thing? :D
21:19:00 <itidus20> that the teaparty consists of a set of mad people
21:19:02 <oerjan> <oklofok> sorry oerjan <-- wat?
21:19:22 <Taneb> I think it's a four dimensional vectors thing
21:19:29 <oerjan> itidus20: where do you think bertrand russell got his teapot from anyway
21:20:04 <Taneb> Something to do with the Mad Hatter's Tea Party
21:20:06 <oklofok> so those people that gets healed by faith healers, why don't they get really mad and make a big deal out of it not working?
21:21:14 <itidus20> there is first of all, certain implications about a person for visiting the faith healer in the first place
21:21:27 <itidus20> just as there is implications about a person visiting a brothel
21:21:27 <Taneb> I'm still trying to figure out how to get that sign I have that says Taneb into town centre
21:22:03 <oklofok> "<itidus20> just as there is implications about a person visiting a brothel" <<< like living in a country that has those?
21:22:27 <itidus20> what do you expect from convicts
21:22:58 <itidus20> but like.. such a person is unlikely to say put some bloody clothes on
21:23:18 <Taneb> I've got relatives in Australia
21:23:19 <itidus20> and.. also.. if the sex is bad.. is it his fault or her fault
21:23:42 <itidus20> i suspect that theres not much room for refunds at a brothel
21:24:06 <itidus20> you get naked with a woman and you're not getting a refund
21:25:08 <itidus20> the chances of someone wanting to try a faith healer and then getting angry about what happens is much decreased than if its a skeptic doing research
21:25:09 <Taneb> How are you going to return the goods, oklofok?
21:25:42 <oklofok> how do you return the goods if you go up the eiffel tower and the view was not good?
21:25:55 <itidus20> humans, also, are reasonable overall. sometimes they let things go.
21:25:59 <oklofok> not saying he's not correct, i'm asking what the fuck he's talking about
21:26:20 <itidus20> company policies tend to be based around the likelihood of customers to not kick up a fuss
21:26:23 <Taneb> what "the fuck" indeed
21:26:38 <itidus20> "<oklofok> so those people that gets healed by faith healers, why don't they get really mad and make a big deal out of it not working?"
21:26:43 <oklofok> so do you mean people might be ashamed of even thinking it might work?
21:27:06 <itidus20> its actually in human nature to let things be more often than not
21:27:22 <Taneb> Because people who have faith in the faith healers will ignore the naysayers, and people who don't just laugh at the naysayers for being slow
21:27:28 <oklofok> but i don't recall hearing about even one case of a tv faith healing not working
21:27:28 <itidus20> with a few more rambunctious individuals standing up for the greater whole
21:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> This is boring, can we go back to talking about maths?
21:28:34 <itidus20> and reallly noone knows what is possible
21:28:45 <itidus20> overestimation of knowledgebase is a common occurance
21:28:51 <oklofok> by noone you mean everyone right?
21:29:08 <itidus20> just as a programmer can't answer every arbitrary question about a computer
21:29:23 <itidus20> a faith healer can't necessarily explain why something might or might not work
21:29:51 <Taneb> Is collective human intelligence turing-complete?
21:29:57 <itidus20> and a person with a working respitory system probably doesn't know exactly how it works either
21:30:06 <Taneb> Or extelligence, even
21:30:10 <itidus20> we more or less have no clue what our bodies are doing
21:30:30 <Taneb> This was addressed in a Terry Pratchett book
21:30:36 <Taneb> Reaper Man, I think
21:30:36 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: so did you know that in a compact hausdorff space the closed sets are exactly the compact ones
21:31:02 <oklofok> hausdorff = for every x != y you find disjoint neighborhoods for x and y
21:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Is collective human intelligence turing-complete?
21:31:22 <oklofok> hmmhmm i wonder how it goes
21:31:31 <Taneb> Even if you include those people with perfect memory
21:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, for one thing, there's no such thing as infinite storage.
21:32:40 <oklofok> so first, let C be closed, and let S be an open cover for it (open sets whose union covers C). by adding X - C where X is the whole space, we get an open cover for X, and since X is compact, you then find a finite subcover for X, which gives you a finite subcover for C as well. so closed => compact.
21:32:49 <oklofok> as for the other direction, let's see...
21:32:59 <itidus20> i thnk rather than physical and mental, there is the experiential (conciousness and qualia and all that) and the inexplicableness which makes it possible
21:33:36 <itidus20> but to divide them is wrong. theres a lot of evil that goes on when toying with such ideas
21:33:52 <itidus20> not dividing them might also be wrong
21:34:42 <itidus20> so i guess that the natural way of things is to simply admit we don't understand
21:35:06 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia
21:35:25 <oklofok> let C be compact, and let x \notin C. for every point y in C we find open U_y and V_y such that U_y contains x, V_y contains y and U_y and V_y are disjoint (this is just hausdorffness). now V_y's actually form an open cover of C, so there's a finite subcover (compactness of C) of the V_y. let's say the indices are Y. but now, the intersection of U_y where y \in Y is open (because it's finite!) so in fact we have separated x from C
21:35:30 <oklofok> x is arbitrary => C is closed
21:36:18 <oklofok> this is kind of trivial i suppose but it's very useful to remember since almost all important spaces are hausdorff, and many are compact.
21:37:07 <itidus20> any view which explains everything is necessarily a false view
21:37:18 <oklofok> (for instance all metric spaces are hausdorff and all bounded metric spaces are compact)
21:38:41 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU FIND THAT TOO TRIVIAL?
21:39:42 <oklofok> do you know what a path is?
21:40:00 <oklofok> well anyway a continuous function from [0, 1] to your favorite topological space
21:40:49 <oklofok> like f : [0, 1] -> X such that f(x) = y implies if y is in an open set U then for small enough perturbations of x, the image won't go outside U
21:40:56 <oklofok> (definition of continuity)
21:41:10 <oklofok> now what is a continuous subset of X?
21:41:19 <oklofok> *now what is a connected subset of X?
21:41:34 <oklofok> can you come up with a definition using the idea of a path
21:42:51 <oklofok> (i have a bad habit of giving people homework)
21:43:08 <itidus20> "One time I went to buy some ice cream ... I walked over to the vendor and asked her what kind of ice cream she had. 'Fruit ice cream,' she said. But she answered in such a tone that a whole pile of coals, of black cinders, came bursting out of her mouth, and I couldn't bring myself to buy any ice cream after she had answered in that way ..."
21:43:36 <Taneb> I was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory
21:43:43 <Taneb> But linked the wrong thing
21:44:28 <itidus20> ok so I had this idea just the other day
21:44:59 <Taneb> Chess variants as XML?
21:45:04 <itidus20> This may sound odd. Normally, we assign a word to only single dimensional numbers.
21:45:17 <itidus20> but suppose we were to assign words to numbers with more than one dimension.
21:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklofok> can you come up with a definition using the idea of a path
21:46:26 -!- elliott has joined.
21:46:36 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:46:49 <Phantom_Hoover> A subset such that \forall x, y \in X, \exists f : f(0) = x, f(1) = y?
21:47:03 <itidus20> suppose I said, lalala = [7][3]
21:47:04 <oklofok> where f is a path, precisely
21:47:09 <oklofok> this is called path-connectedness
21:47:10 <elliott> Taneb: Are you serious do you live in Hexham.
21:47:12 <itidus20> suppose I said, lalala = [7,3]
21:47:22 <itidus20> oops i am misinterpreting the comma
21:47:33 <itidus20> maybe we should go with my first comment
21:47:38 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: it would've been SLIGHTLY less trivial if i had specified we're asking when Y a subset of X is connected
21:47:47 <itidus20> taneb, the trick is that every number is already a vector
21:48:06 <oklofok> Y is path-connected if, with the subspace topology, what you said is true for it
21:48:11 <Taneb> So, we're giving names to n-length vectors
21:48:33 <oklofok> that amounts to Y being path-connected if and only if for all x, y in Y, there's a path f that goes completely inside Y.
21:48:39 <Taneb> I don't think we can change the English language like that
21:48:47 <oklofok> the reason i'm saying this is path-connectedness is that there's also another thing called connectedness
21:48:55 <oklofok> which is slightly harder to guess
21:49:32 <elliott> Taneb: SILENT TREATMENT I SEE
21:49:41 <oklofok> we say X is connected if it cannot be partitioned into open sets except in the trivial way of just having the whole X in one component
21:49:52 <itidus20> Taneb, but it is sort of interesting eh?
21:50:03 <oklofok> now, is there a connection between path-connectedness and connectedness?
21:50:16 <Taneb> I have no idea, either
21:50:39 <itidus20> im probably the dumbest in here.
21:51:41 <oklofok> hahah no way that's gonna happen
21:51:45 <Taneb> elliott: Silet treatment about what?
21:51:53 <elliott> Taneb: <elliott> Taneb: Are you serious do you live in Hexham.
21:51:56 <oklofok> you know just now i was like, hey i have some pizza let's eat
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21:52:04 <oklofok> and then i look in the fridge and it's empty
21:52:10 <oklofok> and i'm like what the fuck happened to my pizza
21:52:13 <elliott> Taneb: I find this vaguely inconceivable.
21:52:14 <oklofok> and then i saw i had eaten it
21:52:41 <oklofok> "<itidus20> I don't know algebra." <<< the true definition of smartness
21:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you have seen the log when I found out haven't you it is hilarious.
21:53:29 <Taneb> Is there a way to find out how many users there are on the wiki?
21:53:35 <oklofok> hey! Taneb maybe you could also invite elliott to the proof party!
21:53:48 <elliott> Taneb: Special:Listusers or something
21:53:55 <itidus20> i can say i don't understand any of the quotes in here which get mathematical
21:54:33 <oklofok> itidus20: most of the math stuff i say is just for my own amusement
21:54:35 <Taneb> There are 678 users on the wiki
21:54:45 <oklofok> it doesn't even mean anything
21:54:58 <Taneb> Hexham has a population that I'm gonna call 10000 for easier maths
21:55:05 <Taneb> The world has 6 billion people in
21:55:13 <oklofok> 12000 would've been easier silly
21:55:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I don't even need to tell you why that count is crazily skewed.
21:56:34 <itidus20> elliot: they mentioned you before. when i was talking about the idea of making a CA in which connected live cells have a collective mass and hence gravity.
21:57:00 <oklofok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6WKz-z0GYA&NR=1
21:57:04 <Taneb> By these numbers, there is a 1 in 600000 chance of a random person living in Hexham
21:57:22 <Taneb> Now, with 700 users on the esolang wiki
21:57:57 <Taneb> That means there is over a 1 in 1000 chance of one living in Hexham
21:58:04 <monqy> is there any better way to stalk elliott
21:58:07 <Taneb> Two is over 1 million
21:58:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you of course realise that the probability of a random esolanger being from Hexham is much more than 1/600000.
21:58:09 <elliott> one in one thousand is pretty bad odds
21:58:24 <monqy> picking random people is pretty lousy
21:58:33 <elliott> monqy: what are you talking about
21:58:43 <monqy> apparently something unrelated
21:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> As most of those 600000 people don't even know English, let alone move in the social circles that lead to us.
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21:59:18 <oklofok> what's the speakation number of english?
21:59:37 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:59:45 <elliott> Taneb: OK fine, the chance of a random person who is both an esolanger and who reads MSPA living in Hexham is pretty low :-P
21:59:49 <Taneb> 500 million to 1.8 billion
22:00:05 <Taneb> MORE SO NOW I KNOW I AM NOT ALONE
22:00:18 <elliott> Taneb: NOPE, sorry, I'm moving into a cave.
22:00:29 <Sgeo> Who else is in Hexlam?/
22:00:38 <elliott> Me and Taneb are the only two people in Hexham.
22:00:56 <oklofok> well i kind of live in hexham too
22:01:02 <Sgeo> I thought you uncovered some fax alias or something
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22:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I think we can chalk that down to coincidence; also go to #esoteric-minecraft now.
22:01:56 <Sgeo> elliott, as in, Hexham was where fax lives or something, so it would seem likely that Taneb is fax
22:02:07 <oerjan> <oklofok> (for instance all metric spaces are hausdorff and all bounded metric spaces are compact) <-- BZZZT WRONG. *complete, totally bounded
22:02:17 <elliott> Taneb: WHY ARE YOU LITERALLY ME
22:02:37 <Taneb> I'M AN ESTIMATED 2-3 YEARS YOUNGER
22:02:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not that I know.
22:02:48 <oklofok> itidus20: see, what i said earlier didn't make sense without oerjan's addition
22:02:55 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, no, but I thought maybe that was the case, and that was the "weird coincidence"
22:03:03 <Sgeo> That might not have been a coincidence
22:03:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not seventeen and a half.
22:03:28 <itidus20> oklo: i am a magnitude more clueless about math.
22:03:55 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, assuming you mean IP, then I don't pay attention to those
22:03:56 <oklofok> oerjan: what's totally bounded? by bounded i meant the space is a ball. but obviously you will then need to add completeness yeah because R^2 would be a counterexample otherwise
22:03:58 <elliott> Taneb: I'm almost sixteen :-P
22:04:05 <oklofok> (by using a different metric)
22:04:34 <Taneb> And I've been outside the UK for why the hell do I have a US keyboard layout 1 1/2 years
22:05:14 <Taneb> I think it's this client
22:05:46 <elliott> Ha, you use Windows; I am justifiably superior.
22:05:59 <elliott> -Taneb- VERSION leafChat 2.3 Windows XP 5.1 http://www.leafdigital.com/software/leafchat/
22:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, shut up I'm making up crazy theories here and you're spoiling them.
22:06:43 <Taneb> I'm already crazy enough
22:06:46 <oklofok> oerjan: is the proof hard btw?
22:07:05 <elliott> Taneb: OK so you are required to stop being literally me.
22:07:05 <Taneb> I got famous last year for wearing a dressing gown and joining a political organization
22:07:26 <oklofok> i don't directly see it, sequential compactness shouldn't be very hard and then i guess you can show compactness eq to that in metric spaces
22:07:51 <Taneb> I'm actually serious
22:08:02 <monqy> what does famous mean
22:08:12 <Taneb> I've been described as a North-East legend
22:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> And I'm not famous for being crazy well OK I am but not for wearing a dressing gown.
22:08:41 <elliott> Taneb: You are required to explain
22:09:32 <Taneb> darthsandroids.net was running a competition
22:09:46 <Taneb> I entered with a picture of me in a dressing gown holding a model lightsabre
22:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, oh, not the student protests YES I GOOGLESTALKED
22:10:01 <Taneb> Set this as my Facebook profile picture
22:10:08 <Taneb> No, PH, that came later
22:10:16 <elliott> http://darthsandroids.net/ is a free iPod site. You'd think it'd be a free Android phone site.
22:10:23 <elliott> (Or, y'know, Darths and Droids.)
22:10:38 <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil
22:10:50 <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10
22:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, and you turned up in a dressing gown and lightsabre?
22:11:01 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10
22:11:02 <HackEgo> 506) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10
22:11:25 <Taneb> I saw a poster saying "Be a Youth Representative for Northumberland"
22:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> (We have people in Scotland protesting tuition fee rises for them.)
22:11:35 <Taneb> Won the election by a landslide
22:11:46 <Taneb> That was November '10, PH
22:11:59 <Taneb> Got in the Financial Times and everything
22:12:13 <Taneb> Point is, Loads of people across Northumberland heard of me.
22:12:24 <elliott> YOU'RE NOT FAMOUS IF I DON'T KNOW YOUR NAME
22:12:29 <Taneb> This was aided by my awesome name and facial hair (RIP)
22:12:33 * elliott immediately stops consuming all forms of media.
22:12:41 <elliott> Taneb: sorry Phantom_Hoover's name is cooler.
22:12:45 <elliott> Mostly because I can't spell it.
22:12:55 <Taneb> Mine makes me sound like a supervillain
22:12:59 <oklofok> i wonder if i'm famous yet
22:13:21 <elliott> Adhamhnáin_McCuil: Put him in his place
22:13:25 <elliott> IF THAT'S YOUR /REAL/ NAME
22:13:51 <elliott> The place of slightly inferior names to you.
22:14:13 <Taneb> And now I have 1789 friends on Facebook
22:14:31 <monqy> I don't have a real facebook
22:14:54 <elliott> english has bad type checking :(
22:15:14 <Taneb> Zero, Elliott, when I heard you lived in Hexham I checked you out
22:15:29 <elliott> i deleted my facebook ages ago anyway
22:15:37 <oklofok> still only page three for picture languages :-<
22:15:51 <Taneb> Somebody called Robbie Soulsby described you as " Hes nee fukn wanker"
22:16:16 <elliott> I have no idea who that is and I suspect they're not talking about me :-P
22:16:34 <Taneb> Take it was a complement
22:18:10 <Taneb> He is not someone who both has sex and masturbates
22:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Somebody called Robbie Soulsby described you as " Hes nee fukn wanker"
22:18:59 <Taneb> Combination of bad spelling, profanity, and Geordie
22:20:51 <Phantom_Hoover> You are currently stalking elliott by asking random friends if they've heard of him y/n
22:21:05 <Taneb> Asking random /people/
22:21:31 <Taneb> PH: I wouldn't count them as friends
22:21:41 <Taneb> ND: It's stalking.
22:22:19 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:25:47 <oerjan> oklofok: i don't remember the proof, i just looked up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totally_bounded_space
22:26:10 <oerjan> also, my jokes seem to be coming true. i need to be careful in the future.
22:26:41 <oklofok> yeah that makes way more sense than the space being a ball since the space being a ball doesn't really give you anything.
22:26:51 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, quick, joke that I'll discover that I'm heir to a vast inheritance tomorrow.
22:27:54 <oerjan> yes. a vast herd of sheep in the highlands. and a castle, which sadly is in a bit of a need of repairs.
22:28:01 <oklofok> don't we all wish our families would die
22:29:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, I already know that I'm heir to my parents' stuff, so that doesn't count as discovering.
22:29:40 <oklofok> i have no idea how much money my parents have
22:30:10 <oklofok> like i have no idea which [10^n, 10^{n+1}] it's in
22:30:34 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: enough to eat lamb every day for the rest of your life
22:30:57 <olsner> I would guess much less than 100 million moneys
22:31:06 <oklofok> olsner: i doubt they'd tell me
22:31:18 <oklofok> i don't even know if my mom has a religion
22:33:06 <oklofok> i have a hunch she votes for parties that are into that environment protection stuff, but i have no idea about my dad, really i don't even know whether he votes
22:34:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, well, for instance, have you ever actually seen your dad.
22:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, your parents may well have died when you were 2 and all you can remember is that your mother voted for environmental parties.
22:36:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly because she took baby you into the polling booth.
22:36:21 <oklofok> well i did live with them for 19 years or so
22:37:08 <oklofok> although they spent the last year mostly at our summer house because i liked having the house to myself and they liked gardening and shit
22:37:26 <oklofok> i mean the non-summer house
22:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, wait a minute why do you like topology it's not even discrete explain??????????????
22:38:06 <oklofok> that was an awesome year, my last year of high school, all i did was sit in my armchair naked and eat pizza
22:38:24 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: i dunno! that is kind of weird!
22:38:45 <oklofok> but S^Z has a topology as well
22:38:57 <oklofok> and it's pretty discrete in spirit
22:39:27 <oklofok> we also measure subsets of S^Z every day
22:39:46 <oklofok> it's a pretty routine thing
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23:12:40 * Phantom_Hoover attempts to find citation for the story about Prince Charles' bodyguard at Cambridge.
23:13:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
23:15:20 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hag[4]rd.
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23:16:44 <elliott> 19:21:21: <oerjan> it does not disappear when i scroll
23:18:52 <elliott> 20:09:29: <Taneb> Man, I just got confused when Wikipedia didn't have an article on the Churing-Turch Thesis
23:19:38 <elliott> 20:20:38: <ais523> Taneb: no, my language
23:19:38 <elliott> 20:20:43: <ais523> http://pastebin.com/MDEebq26
23:19:45 <elliott> expired and on a bad pastebin. hth.
23:34:10 <Sgeo_> pastebin.com is bad?
23:34:24 <Sgeo_> Also, sometimes I posted pastes in here deliberately set to expire
23:34:27 <Sgeo_> Like the #jesus stuff
23:34:36 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:35:28 <elliott> <Sgeo_> pastebin.com is bad?
23:35:31 <elliott> <Sgeo_> Also, sometimes I posted pastes in here deliberately set to expire
23:44:04 <Sgeo> I don't feel comfortable posting pastes of a non-publically logged channel into a publically logged channel
23:45:01 <elliott> I don't feel comfortable knowing that expiring pastes exist.
23:45:45 <oklofok> vjn pastes will expire in a year :( although they will just move to another domain
23:46:09 <elliott> oklofok: which domain, if.njv?
23:46:49 <oklofok> i will tell you when it's relevant
23:48:06 <elliott> oklofok: SHEESH I WAS TRYING TO MAKE A QUARTER-JOKE
23:49:11 <zzo38> Can you invent any card game using the Fanucci deck?
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23:52:53 <oerjan> elliott: make a whole joke next time hth
23:53:06 <elliott> oerjan: why? _you_ never do
23:53:35 <oerjan> but that's for the extra fridge logic punch...
23:55:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/01596_2.gif