00:10:04 <elliott> 06:33:22: <Taneb> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/100_free_dutch_dating_sites_2008
00:10:17 <elliott> ?tell ais523 Request a copy of the wiki page "100_free_dutch_dating_sites_2008".
00:12:10 <elliott> `addquote <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer
00:12:11 <HackEgo> 507) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer
00:12:58 <oerjan> i hear 16 year olds with grandchildren are quite rare in england
00:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yeah, although they're set to be common up here.
00:13:54 <monqy> how does that even work
00:14:07 <oerjan> myndzi: now producing child pornography automatically
00:28:40 <elliott> 15:41:03: <oklofok> idgi, in paris and other third world countries the streets are full of all sorts of crooks and everyone still treats you like you're a person; out there everyone assumed i was going to do something fishy
00:28:40 <elliott> 15:41:07: <oklofok> i asked like 20 ppl
00:28:40 <elliott> 15:41:10: <oklofok> two gave me their phones
00:28:40 <elliott> 15:41:26: <oklofok> one typed the number in himself, and looked a bit scared
00:28:40 <elliott> 15:41:37: <oklofok> (i'm pretty scary)
00:28:41 <elliott> 15:41:53: <oklofok> and the other one was a druggie so he was nice ofc
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00:36:38 <monqy> i misread nothing as something and was confused when you didnt say anything
00:37:08 <oklofok> the druggie had apparently spent a few years just being stoned all day, like at work as well, then managed to quit and became a financial manager or something with a huge salary, but got sacked now and was real happy about finally being able to move in with his girlfriend. he was looking for some weed for his sleeping problem tho because he'd been prescribed way stronger drugs for it and was afraid he'd get schizophrenic with that stuff.
00:38:06 <zzo38> Does it exist Fanucci deck suit symbols in METAFONT?
00:39:35 <oklofok> i also had interesting conversations with the non-druggies, for instance there were a couple that went "no", and then also a few that went ""
00:43:34 <oklofok> oh and one guy told me in this incredibly annoying way that i could just go see my friend
00:44:27 <elliott> you're SO RELIANT on PHONES, dude
00:46:26 <oklofok> i didn't have my phone because i would've had to carry it in my hand since my pockets are just holes
00:47:26 <oerjan> oklofok: i assume "no" and "" are considered lengthy conversations in finland
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00:48:06 <oklofok> i would say happily say no if it didn't defeat my point
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01:07:43 <elliott> oklofok: have you ever consiered visiting oklahoma
01:08:09 <oklofok> are you calling me a homo?
01:08:53 <oklofok> i don't know the anythingest thing about oklohomo so you're going to have to tell me why you asked
01:10:43 <elliott> just saying that you should visit oklohama
01:16:53 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silo,_Oklahoma
01:17:59 <oerjan> other options include salina, slaughterville, and south coffeyville
01:19:44 <oerjan> "I am writing on behalf of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, our 800,000 members and supporters, and other compassionate Americans to ask Slaughterville to change its name [...]"
01:21:46 <elliott> you missed out the best part
01:22:41 <oerjan> 'The citizens of Slaughterville voiced their opinion by serving free hot dogs and brandishing signs that read, "Beef: it's what's for dinner."
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01:27:17 <zzo38> oerjan: If that is how they are voicing their opinion, then other people should request something else for dinner. Instead of, everyone eating a same thing for dinner.
01:29:59 <oerjan> zzo38: the PETA were offering veggie food at the same time
01:31:29 <zzo38> oerjan: Then it is OK. Because, people can go to whichever source of dinner they want, or both in case some people want to eat both hot dog and veggie for dinner.
01:31:57 <zzo38> However I do not think any of this requires a name change of a city.
01:34:27 <elliott> 20:16:29: <hagb4rd> oklofok.. the problem you have IS a real problem.. and youreflect it that nice. no'ones sure its gonna ex- or implode
01:34:28 <elliott> 20:16:36: <hagb4rd> and what happens next!
01:34:28 <elliott> 20:16:55: <oklofok> hagb4rd: can you clarify a bit?
01:34:31 <elliott> i wanna addquote this but it's too long
01:35:31 <oklofok> well i wouldn't want to be a secondary character in a quote anyway, it just feels wrong
01:35:36 <itidus20> http://thegamecrafter.com/publish/selling-your-game
01:35:53 <itidus20> i just arrived at that after reading about Fanucci
01:36:29 <elliott> oklofok: can you link to sevenfold.mid please
01:36:42 <itidus20> Basically... you can design boardgames.. and if they get a buyer, they will manufacture the game and sell it splitting the profits with you 50/50
01:37:48 <oklofok> http://www.rnd.fi/oklopol/music/sevenfold.mid
01:38:00 <elliott> oklofok: ha you told me the domain... when it was relevant
01:38:05 <elliott> rnd is much less nice a name than vjn btw
01:38:07 <oerjan> oklofok: looks a bit random to me
01:38:20 <elliott> has oerjan heard the wonders of sevenfold.mid, i am unsure
01:38:40 <oerjan> since i almost never play sounds
01:38:43 <elliott> oerjan: but it's a classic :(
01:39:01 <elliott> oklofok: can you get this performed irl somehow thx
01:39:09 <itidus20> in addition you can sell the game to yourself
01:39:14 <oerjan> well i definitely do not play sounds in the middle of the night
01:39:22 <oklofok> 1:09 always makes me giggle
01:39:31 <itidus20> So you can design a deck of cards and sell them to yourself :D
01:39:54 <itidus20> oh humm.. i dunno if it actually works that way entirely
01:40:06 <itidus20> like, if thats considered cheating, or if its cool with them
01:40:27 <itidus20> seems they will do that though
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01:41:14 <elliott> oklofok: what bpm is the fast bits anyway
01:41:52 <elliott> i wonder if it's humanly possible to drum that fast
01:42:04 <oklofok> i can check if the guitars are playable, the drums are impossible tho
01:42:22 <itidus20> So you can create your own card deck of 100 cards for $12.09 .. I dunno how much ordering is on top of that
01:42:44 <elliott> oklofok: like i seriously doubt that
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01:43:54 <oklofok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcK6paHCZM
01:44:43 <elliott> oklofok: i really doubt sevenfold is anywhere near a thousand bpm
01:45:09 <elliott> "i wanted to be known for my feet and now i am, i have the world's fastest feet"
01:45:22 <elliott> "around 350-360 bpm if my memory serves" um he said over a thousand
01:45:42 <elliott> but yeah that doesn't really look that fast, it's kind of unfair since how many people actually try and set the record for fastest bass drum playing
01:45:51 <elliott> that's like the least popular drum for fastness
01:45:57 <zzo38> Yes I saw that stuff about making a game with cards and selling the game earning 50% profit.
01:46:38 <oklofok> i think sevenfold is way faster than that vid at least
01:46:46 <elliott> just play it on another drum
01:46:49 <zzo38> I was linked to that game crafter stuff from Wikipedia
01:47:04 <itidus20> i was following up on your Fanucci comments
01:47:17 <zzo38> Yes it is what I guessed.
01:47:36 <elliott> oklofok: can't you open the mid and check the bpm of the drums or is that too much work
01:47:39 <itidus20> now.. its worth saying.. tarot cards are public domain. playing cards are public domain.
01:48:04 <itidus20> except no wait.. maybe they are public domain?? cos that dude was selling em
01:48:08 <zzo38> They have three games there, but I (and you and others) can make additional games of Fanucci deck
01:48:48 <itidus20> If I ever get into serious game dev I may keep it in mind for branching to other media.
01:48:50 <zzo38> itidus20: I expect they should be considered public domain except for the designs used by actual decks can be copyrighted. Probably tarot cards can also do that, so can face cards and ace of spades and jokers in a standard French deck
01:49:18 <zzo38> What they do not mention as far as I can tell is what resolution is used for printing the rules documents
01:50:53 <zzo38> Some tarot decks are for game playing, some are designed for divination, but some are designed for both games and divination (game craft sells such decks). Tarot decks also come in French suited and Latin suited formats.
01:51:26 <zzo38> In fact I have invented my own Latin suited tarot deck.
01:52:17 <itidus20> I have been trying to shift my life away from the occult a bit recently. Not that tarot is inherently occult.
01:52:20 <zzo38> (Which is designed for game playing and I doubt it would work well for divination)
01:53:13 <elliott> get out WHILE U STILL CANNE
01:54:01 <itidus20> well .. divination attracts liars
01:54:31 <zzo38> Well, OK, then use the tarot decks designed for game playing. Note that the Uncarrot Tarot seems designed for really strange divination (it is not compatible with standard tarot), although some games could be played with it too (I had an idea of a trick taking game called "Rulers")
01:54:42 <itidus20> I am not saying divination is impossible.
01:54:50 <oklofok> oh okay it's just 16 beats per second all the way
01:54:52 <itidus20> I am saying it attracts liars though. :-D
01:55:05 <zzo38> (Note that tarot cards were originally designed for trick taking games, although now other games exist too, as well as divination.)
01:55:24 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes I believe it certainly attracts liars.
01:55:27 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=sixteen+per+second+in+per+minute
01:55:34 <itidus20> I hope I am not being offensive to anyone. ^_^
01:55:41 <elliott> i'm so offended that i literally barfed, sorry
01:56:27 <oklofok> when i hear someone say x bpm i convert to bps to have any sort of idea how fast that is
01:56:29 <elliott> oklofok: oh so 960 bpm in the fast parts?
01:56:59 <oklofok> 16 * 60 is a simple mental calculation
01:56:59 <elliott> itidus20: its just times ixty :-P
01:57:35 <elliott> oklofok: seems the maximum speed ever drummed is 1200 bpm
01:57:38 <elliott> at least in this contest thing
01:58:05 <elliott> oklofok: is it still sevenfold if you only play half the beats :D
01:58:10 <zzo38> Of course you cannot do proper divination with cards anyways, it is meaningless. Although other forms of divination are a bit different. Example, with palm reading, there might (although I am not sure) be some things you can genuinely predict with it, although certainly not as much as they claim, and not with a lot of accuracy
01:59:35 <oklofok> elliott: i think it would have roughly the same effect on real instruments
01:59:56 <zzo38> But of course the creases don't do anything themself, so lengthening them with chalk or grease pencil won't help anything. If the creases mean anything at all, they would be based on existing things, such as DNA and so on. Although I am unsure if it is actually possible at all.
02:00:15 <itidus20> the wiki page on divination shows that countless objects have been used for purposes of divination
02:00:22 <elliott> i divined with a cat but it ate me
02:00:32 <itidus20> well maybe it is not the divination page itself but a erlated one
02:00:37 <elliott> itidus20: what does the twenty in your name represent
02:00:44 <elliott> or are you actually twenty people???
02:01:11 <oklofok> the guitar in the beginning is rather impossible to play, since you have 16bps and you're hitting two notes at once
02:01:18 <oklofok> but with two guitars, it's very doable
02:01:32 <itidus20> it is a relic of my time on yahoo chat
02:01:41 <itidus20> which i have formally quit yesterday
02:01:46 <elliott> oklofok: so it's two guitars playing at 960 bpm?
02:02:12 <zzo38> Yes certainly many different ways of divination have been used. There are rules for divination with ordinary (French) playing cards. Of course it is useless but some people might do it for entertainment if you want to, I guess.
02:02:14 <oklofok> it would be, if i was playing it. maybe someone can make two sounds at once on a real guitar sounds sensible, but i doubt it.
02:02:34 <itidus20> i popped into my old reg room for about 12 minutes and told them in no uncertain terms that i am leaving yahoo forever.
02:06:23 <itidus20> several reasons. one is yahoo chat has been going downhill for the last 10 years, kind of like the quality of an apple declines if you trail it behind your car
02:06:56 <itidus20> secondly, the unmoderated nature of chat means it is full to the brim with nasty people
02:08:03 <elliott> this place is fairly unmoderated too. or well, it was until oerjan came along >:)
02:08:52 <itidus20> yes but fuckheads usually don't care about esoteric programming languages
02:09:12 <oerjan> nah it's just that most jerks get serious brain damage if they try to read the channel
02:10:55 <oerjan> and of course there is the occasional one which stays despite the brain damage
02:11:06 <elliott> not naming names, i assume
02:11:14 <itidus20> i'm kind of passive aggressive/conflict avoidant.. but i don't shit where i sleep
02:11:28 <oerjan> elliott: nah, just plain fax
02:11:31 <elliott> I'm kind of a person... but I don't kill bears.
02:11:47 <itidus20> i mean if i have to be an asshole i'll go find somewhere else to do it
02:11:57 <elliott> oerjan: you're cheating. you're one who breaks rules.
02:13:00 <itidus20> eh.. i dont wanna elaborate too much about boring personal side of things
02:14:39 <oerjan> elliott: but we have no rules for cheaters to break
02:16:09 <oklofok> elliott: okay when actually playing a melody, that speed is waaaaaaaaaay beyond my comfort zone
02:16:28 <elliott> oklofok: good thing sevenfold lacks melodies :D
02:16:43 <oklofok> err it's all about the guitar melodies
02:17:20 <oklofok> oh okay anyway lemme show you my pathetic attempt
02:18:23 <oklofok> no it's not :D http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/fucckkk.wma
02:18:44 <oklofok> the most horrible program ever
02:18:51 <oklofok> it literally just has a record button.
02:19:03 <elliott> oklofok: haha wow was it actually this choppy irl
02:19:11 <elliott> it sounds like your fingers keep slipping
02:19:33 <oklofok> i can hold it steady on one note but argh
02:20:25 <elliott> oklofok: it still sounds pretty cool
02:20:47 <oklofok> i can try to make a seriouser version
02:21:31 <elliott> oklofok: that would be cool, my friend thinks he can do it and i think he's full of shit
02:22:09 <CakeProphet> fortunately these assertions aren't mutually exclusive.
02:22:20 <oklofok> well the beginning isn't that hard, that's just not really a technique i can manage without an amp
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02:38:02 <oklofok> i gave up already, did the half speed version but my hand is way too tired from the attempts... :D http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/fuckitall.wma
02:38:23 <elliott> will listen in some minutes :P
02:38:30 <oklofok> i can't really do speeds that high so major hand-breaking attempting it
02:38:32 <elliott> oklofok: one day you will figure out the secret. one day.
02:44:24 <elliott> oklofok: i kind of like these choppy renditions evene more than the actual opening
02:50:24 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/spacejazz.wma
02:51:43 <oklofok> no instead i played some space jazz
02:54:12 <elliott> 20:51:45: <Taneb> I take inspiration from JRR Tolkein
02:56:21 <elliott> 21:05:03: <itidus20> I force myself to be iconoclastic and autodidactic in this.
02:56:21 <elliott> itidus20: does this just mean you don't listen to other people
02:59:59 <elliott> this is like watching windows install
03:01:10 <itidus20> grabbed my soda from fridge...
03:02:45 <itidus20> Perhaps the reason for the icono and autod is: I find it very difficult to focus or concentrate.
03:02:55 <itidus20> reasons which make this worse includes.
03:03:30 <itidus20> I live in my moms house still at 29 with a brother who works and can push me around when things come down to it.
03:04:17 <itidus20> I have type 1 diabetes which is currently poorly controlled and mild asthma.
03:05:48 <itidus20> Combined with my conflict-avoidant passive aggressive non-assertiveness, I gradually grow into a depression.
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03:07:39 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/spacejazz2.wma more space jazz!
03:07:48 <itidus20> If despite everything else I did manage to live on my own there is a danger I could have a diabetic seizure without anyone there to help get an ambulance etc.
03:08:27 <itidus20> I don't drive, study, work, shower, shave, change clothes, get sunlight, have friends.
03:09:37 <oklofok> you're even cooler than taneb
03:09:54 <oklofok> but i bet you can't play space jazz.
03:09:57 <itidus20> I have phobias of heights and wide open spaces.
03:10:15 <oerjan> i'm not as cool, i do almost 4 of those things
03:10:47 <oklofok> i don't drive, avoid sunlight and rarely meet friends
03:10:57 <itidus20> Sometimes I seem to think myself into a sort of psychosis, imagining that all my perceptions are just neuron clusters firing.
03:10:58 <oklofok> but that's mainly because i'm too busy playing space jazz
03:11:21 <oklofok> itidus20: that sounds pretty cool
03:12:03 <itidus20> it's a misconception due to an incorrect understanding of the boundaries of science
03:12:19 <oklofok> i have this weird thing where i feel like my brain is on overdrive and i hear weird sounds and shit
03:12:44 <oklofok> good for doing math although actual mental calculation isn't enhanced, i did extensive testing once
03:13:51 <oklofok> space jazz? well there's no way to conceive space jazz that's for sure.
03:14:04 <elliott> itidus20: what are the boundaries of science?
03:14:14 <itidus20> science can't explain conciousness
03:14:24 <itidus20> conciousness is tied in with everything we do
03:14:36 <itidus20> thus science can't explain anything completely
03:14:36 * oerjan isn't sure if the channel can survive at this point
03:14:42 <elliott> oklofok: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Jazz
03:14:56 <oklofok> they made a wp page for those two clips? :O
03:15:32 <oklofok> i need to find a new name i guess
03:15:59 <itidus20> oerjan, does it lack the esolang topics too much when i am ranting about non-esolang things?
03:16:04 <elliott> oklofok: no this just makes it better
03:16:12 <oklofok> itidus20: i don't think that's the issue
03:16:29 <oerjan> itidus20: it's quite a bit more personal than usual for this channel
03:16:35 <zzo38> I have also invented a kind of tarot poker, with some new hands, although I have not calculated the probabilities of the hand. The rarest (and therefore best) hand is the "God Flush", which consists of the fool and the four highest trumps.
03:16:46 <oklofok> oerjan: i'm that personal often enough
03:17:17 <itidus20> well the thing is.. all these factors add up to a state where i can't just knuckle down and code
03:17:19 <oklofok> granted, my life is awesome so why wouldn't i
03:17:34 <itidus20> people think.. oh sure he's not working he could be coding all day
03:17:42 <oklofok> although some sex would be nice
03:17:55 <zzo38> Would you know how to calculate some of the tarot poker?
03:18:08 <oklofok> itidus20: it's not a very uncommon problem not to be able to do things you want to do
03:18:27 <itidus20> oklofok: but it's because of stupid shit.
03:18:34 <oklofok> it's always because of stupid shit
03:19:06 <oklofok> in my case it's usually about... absolutely nothing
03:19:37 <itidus20> 1) i need to improve my diabetes. 2)the main problem with my diabetes is my sleeping patterns.
03:19:44 <zzo38> And I only partially agree that science can't explain conciousness. Science can partially explain consciousness, at least. Although there is the "hard problem" (I prefer the slight variant on the hard problem which I call the "hard mystery") that that cannot be explained completely by science. Science also doesn't always explain philosophical things
03:19:47 <oklofok> elliott: i'm thinking i should form a band called space jazz and we'd play space jazz
03:19:56 <oklofok> guess what our first album will be called?
03:19:56 <itidus20> 3) sometimes i have been expected to be awake at a certain hour of the morning
03:20:14 <elliott> oklofok: will it have sevenfold.mid
03:20:29 <oklofok> itidus20: for me, sleeping 16:00 to 00:00 is pretty normal
03:20:46 <oklofok> elliott: that's not really space jazz man
03:20:55 <elliott> oklofok: it's every genre imaginable.
03:21:06 <itidus20> Not being in practice allowed to determine for myself when I wake up unless I sleep during the day has a shocking effect on when I go to sleep.
03:21:35 <itidus20> I have great difficultly sleeping when I anticipate someone else waking me up.
03:21:36 <elliott> itidus20: join the bad sleep schedules club
03:21:42 <oklofok> the main point of space jazz is jumping around at random, and preferably not too fast except in short spurts
03:21:55 <itidus20> but i have diabetes type 1.. im not allowed to have a bad sleep schedule =))
03:22:10 <oklofok> i live on my own, so i'm too :)
03:22:12 <itidus20> drives my endocrinologist to frustration
03:22:24 <oklofok> i don't have my own -ist :(
03:22:42 <itidus20> he says "shift workers sleep more regular hours than you"
03:22:48 <oklofok> well unless my penist counts.
03:23:13 <itidus20> "what do you do all day?" -- uhhmm errr...
03:23:47 <oklofok> have you told him about space jazz?
03:23:51 <itidus20> "you need more sunlight.. your vitamin d levels are too low.. buy some vitamind d pills"
03:24:06 <Sgeo__> There was a piece o spam I wanted to investigate
03:24:36 <itidus20> now diabetes out of control means i am just always tired and lethargic
03:24:51 <itidus20> its hard to tell which is which at times.
03:25:46 <itidus20> So.. I have tried to block out the rest of my house.. I try to soundproof my door as much as I can so that I don't hear my mom on the phone, or her radio
03:25:54 <Sgeo__> I don't see what the point of this is
03:26:10 <Sgeo__> Looks like phishing, but I don't see any password or cc number requested
03:26:11 <itidus20> and also so i can turn up volume when my brother is trying to sleep for work
03:26:35 <elliott> Sgeo__: a lot of spam is like that recently
03:26:36 <Sgeo__> It's a PDF (I used the web viewer, hopefully didn't put myself in danger), possibly malware?
03:26:41 <elliott> i think they're just trying to see if your email is real
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03:27:30 <oklofok> itidus20: why don't you want to hear people flushing the toilet or talking with the radio?
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03:27:43 <itidus20> talking on the phone and listening to the radio
03:28:07 <itidus20> because i have become hypersensitive to noises i suppose
03:28:48 <zzo38> In the DVI file format, note that |y1-down1==w1-right1| and so on. Another thing to note is that all commands with the same name in DVI format as GF format also have the same number assigned! (Very useful when creating WEB or CWEB programs that access both kind of files)
03:28:48 <itidus20> I have tried saying i'm lazy. But it's more than that.
03:29:22 <itidus20> But there is a certain level of my laziness involved.
03:29:35 <itidus20> The lazyness occurs on leaf nodes on the tree of my problems.
03:30:11 <oklofok> i'm slightly hypersensitive as well, although possibly it's just because i have a slight phobia for damaging my hearing
03:30:48 <itidus20> I have the best eyesight in my family
03:31:27 <itidus20> ok heres some trivia about hearing
03:31:32 <zzo38> I have the SMTP server set up it is very unlikely I can receive spam messages (they will get unreachable server message if they try), although even then I usually read the directly raw message, so it won't render HTML and stuff that can send them information! (I have never received spam messages since I stopped my email account with my service provider)
03:31:54 <itidus20> when listening to one half of a conversation, the mind/brain apparently tries to reconstruct the other half of the conversation
03:32:26 <oklofok> according to whom? and wouldn't that be kind of an obvious thing to do consciously?
03:32:28 <zzo38> itidus20: Also see "Sonata for Unaccompanied Achilles" in "Godel Escher Bach"
03:32:55 <itidus20> is this a safe place to admit i have that book on my pc?
03:33:05 <oklofok> i'm not particularly distracted by people phoning
03:33:10 <zzo38> (Achilles is talking to the Tortoise by telephone so you can try to guess what the Tortoise says, or you can read it without.)
03:33:17 <elliott> "(I have never received spam messages since I stopped my email account with my service provider)" <-- lol
03:33:26 <elliott> itidus20: no that's bannable
03:33:39 <oklofok> we may just report you to the fbi
03:33:48 <itidus20> well good thing i don't have such a book
03:34:06 <oklofok> and the world security bureau of dealing with dangerous people and shit
03:34:27 <itidus20> i wonder how doug feels about such things
03:34:50 <oklofok> yeah i wonder if doug likes space jazz as much as his name implies
03:34:53 <itidus20> "go ahead just don't get caught"
03:35:17 <oklofok> that's one famous bisexual
03:35:24 <elliott> like you can get "caught" for downloading one book
03:35:48 <oklofok> i wonder if cops admit that stuff to their cop friends openly
03:36:05 <itidus20> I figure that while it's a safe enough to say, that you never know who's watching
03:36:17 <elliott> oh the illuminati definitely dwell here.
03:36:20 <elliott> always best to look at the source.
03:36:40 <oerjan> fungot: what is elliott babbling about
03:36:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
03:37:00 <fungot> elliott: ' git' wins over ' hg' because hg is too close to the cat's forehead.
03:37:14 <monqy> why didn't fungot respond im woried
03:37:15 <fungot> monqy: gotta get foods. if somebody tried to hand the homework in in c++ so i can do
03:37:24 <zzo38> Too close to the cat's forehead??
03:38:14 <oerjan> monqy: clearly he didn't want to elaborate about the illuminati
03:39:05 <zzo38> Will fungot respond to this message?
03:39:24 <fungot> monqy: meh. now i'm thinking of a function and stop the eval loop? :)
03:40:19 <itidus20> elliot: so to wrap up my answer. it may be i am those big words i used because of my inability to focus and concentrate lately.
03:40:28 <monqy> I'd do that trick with two bolds but doesn't +c kill that
03:40:40 <monqy> is there some 0-width thing that works
03:40:45 <itidus20> which may itself be due to lazyness on the leafnodes of my particular problems as seen in a top-down form.
03:40:49 <zzo38> monqy: Yes +c kill that I think.
03:41:06 <zzo38> It cancels out some control characters.
03:41:47 <zzo38> It says "No color" but actually it removes some control characters from the message.
03:42:27 <itidus20> if there is some bad shit going down in here it is in my nature to become outspoken about it, and bite off more than I can chew.
03:42:35 <oerjan> i'm sure there's nothing wrong with fungot
03:42:36 <fungot> oerjan: by this i do not
03:42:36 <itidus20> then eventually have an emotional meltdown about it.
03:42:44 <itidus20> and perhaps, to become one of the bad peopel.
03:42:55 <oklofok> "<itidus20> elliot: so to wrap up my answer. it may be i am those big words i used because of my inability to focus and concentrate lately." <<< i thought it was concise enough as it was
03:43:51 <itidus20> so.. just tell me to leave if there is something like that.. to spare us all the pain
03:44:51 <itidus20> i don't care what people are doing to themselves of course. banging 7 rocks is fine with me.
03:45:19 <monqy> I'm confused did I miss something
03:45:33 <itidus20> but, if there is a subtle manipulative undercurrent where people are being exploited for money or some crap
03:45:43 <oklofok> itidus20: i'm not following you :D
03:46:32 <itidus20> it is a weakness i have to act the hero
03:46:35 -!- hag[4]rd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:46:45 <oerjan> itidus20: well i've banned people for emotional meltdowns before
03:46:55 <itidus20> this isn't a meltdown i assure you
03:47:02 <itidus20> this is merely explaining who i am
03:47:10 <oklofok> that... fun guy/chick dude?
03:47:18 <oerjan> it was rather obvious the other times
03:47:35 <itidus20> meltdown is like when i say I AM LEAVING IRC FOREVER... YOU KNOW WHY.. GO TO HELLLLLLLLL
03:47:38 <zzo38> Ask a question please. https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/boards AsK a QuEsTiOn PlEaSe?
03:49:13 <itidus20> its only really a problem with women anyway
03:50:02 <itidus20> but it is like saying all spider bites are caused by spiders
03:50:19 <itidus20> even though not all spiders bite
03:50:47 <itidus20> though certainly they may be in self defence
03:51:08 <oklofok> i'm not touching what you just said
03:51:18 <oklofok> but there certainly is something to touch
03:52:02 <oklofok> i'm a bit of a misogynist, men and women are different in almost every way, even their penises look different.
03:52:06 <itidus20> guys are certainly not perfect but they tend to hover around women if they are assholes
03:53:10 <oklofok> i think assholes and non-assholes hover around women equally gladly
03:53:22 <itidus20> but the women tend to reject non-assholes more
03:53:33 <oklofok> well obviously, they are pretty pointless people aren't they
03:53:35 <elliott> are you really going down the Nice Guy route
03:53:47 <elliott> oerjan: please turn off +c, i need to bold "really"
03:53:57 <oklofok> elliott: are you really going down the are you really going down the nice guy route route?
03:54:23 <oklofok> oh. well that's cool i guess.
03:55:39 <oklofok> it's not really that women prefer assholes, it's that people who aren't after pussy will usually give up way before the girl even considers paying serious attention to the guy
03:55:54 <oklofok> people try to ignore everything unless you shove it down their throart
03:56:04 <oklofok> SO PPL HOW DID YOU LIKE SPACE JAZZ?
03:56:58 <itidus20> well you could say its a reverse definition that a guy who competes well for girls will be percieved as an asshole by his peers who cannot match him
03:57:19 <itidus20> but it tends to carry over into a generalized assholeness
03:58:00 <elliott> i, too, characterise the world so that people who do things not beneficial to people like me are generalised in purely negative terms
03:58:03 <oklofok> i stick to my shove it down her throat thing. not just because i'm into facefucking and space jazz, but also because it makes more sense.
03:59:23 <monqy> I stay away from people
04:01:04 <oklofok> maybe you're using them wrong?
04:01:08 <itidus20> elliott: i would say that in that definition simply leaving you to your own devices is very much beneficial to you
04:03:58 <itidus20> well, the best way to characterize people
04:04:29 <itidus20> brb gotta make some sandwiches
04:04:39 <oklofok> i would say it's best not to, what little characterizing is useful you will do automatically
04:08:11 <monqy> goodbye dog, hello insulin
04:09:58 <itidus20> and finally a small note in a log i am keeping to try to improve my diabetes treatment
04:10:22 <monqy> I can't stop thinking of sgeo
04:11:30 <oklofok> itidus20 certainly reminds me of Sgeo__
04:11:38 <itidus20> i honestly don't complain about these things at all normally.. but when analyzing wh--dog barks let him back in-- why i am unproductive it comes up
04:12:36 <oklofok> itidus20: i don't mind your complaining, as long as you have fresh material.
04:12:52 <oklofok> it's complaint repetition that's annoying
04:13:12 <oklofok> but you know what's not annoying when repeated?
04:13:16 <itidus20> i will be due to have another snack such as a sandwich in 90mins
04:13:35 <elliott> oklofok: link monqy to the space jazz he needs it
04:13:44 <Sgeo__> itidus20, please note that this is a publically logged channel, so if you mind a particularly determined stalker learning all this, probably best not to say it here.
04:14:07 <monqy> tylenol and insulin party
04:14:18 <monqy> #esoteric logs, good times
04:14:30 <oklofok> monqy: yw in advance http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/spacejazz.wma and http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/spacejazz2.wma
04:14:32 <itidus20> sgeo: thank you. have I revealed too much? perhaps I should stop now.
04:15:51 <Sgeo__> itidus20, I personally don't mind, but I have annoyed others by sharing my problems constantly, so
04:16:07 <Sgeo__> Although tbh I haven't been paying much attention
04:16:19 <Sgeo__> Or again, if the public logging scares you
04:16:50 <oklofok> monqy: can you believe i composed those songs in just a few minutes?!?
04:17:47 <oklofok> i mean anyone can put a few random notes together but not everyone can do what's that like 30 at least
04:18:10 <oklofok> but i think i might be able to put 100 notes in the same song
04:18:14 <itidus20> i can put random notes together though
04:18:32 <oklofok> wouldn't be a one night project of course, since i only remember like 13 different notes
04:20:31 <itidus20> to me, it feels as if when growing up I missed out on the part where nature teaches us to think up sounds as a painter thinks up a painting
04:21:00 <itidus20> or maybe it is that i can think up the sounds but i can't translate them to musical notes
04:22:32 <oklofok> itidus20: the thing about mixing personal stuff with this channel is some people here (me at least) consider this a safehaven from all rational thought and especially all seriousness. (there have been some special circumstances when regulars (who are better people by irc law) have personal problems.)
04:23:38 <Sgeo__> I don't think my rantings deserve to technically count as a special circumstance
04:24:07 <itidus20> I will try to keep this in mind.
04:25:58 <oklofok> Sgeo__: i was not referring to you in particular (or perhaps at all)
04:27:07 <itidus20> mind(this) as in "this in mind"
04:27:20 <oklofok> i like sharing a lot of details of my life here, but i only do it when i'm comfortable with laughing about them. so there's a 5 minute delay.
04:27:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Brave Sir Oerjan ran away, he bravely ran away).
04:28:46 <oklofok> anyway about those topological spaces
04:29:32 <itidus20> try to use the most academic terms.
04:29:48 <itidus20> nothing dumbed down .. make it easy on yourself
04:30:18 <oklofok> if X is a set, then a topology on it is a collection T of subsets of X that's closed under arbitrary unions and finite intersections, and X and {} are in T
04:30:50 <oklofok> now this is very general, and you will get all kinds of crazy spaces, so usually you add certain additional things
04:31:48 <oklofok> in fact, there's a whole list of standard additional axioms you can add
04:31:51 <itidus20> who am i kidding.. i'll try wiki simple english. i just had to hear it how it would be actually said.
04:32:08 <oklofok> did you get all the words?
04:32:25 <oklofok> do you know what "closed under" means?
04:32:44 <itidus20> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_space
04:33:41 <oklofok> basically i'm doing the second paragraph first
04:34:09 <elliott> * oerjan has quit (Quit: Brave Sir Oerjan ran away, he bravely ran away)
04:34:10 <itidus20> but even this page will wrack my brain while i digest it
04:34:34 <oklofok> "One can think of only certain sets as open, or more sets as open."
04:34:58 <oklofok> that should win like a the best sentence award
04:35:11 <itidus20> do these words like open and closed fail if used as literal analogies of their usual meaning?
04:35:54 <oklofok> their usual meaning has nothing to do with their definition
04:35:58 <Sgeo__> I've heard that you can have things both closed and open, so yes
04:36:06 <oklofok> or at least it's way too far from it to be useful
04:36:31 <oklofok> Sgeo__: you have things both open and closed (clopen, believe it or not) in every topological space
04:37:01 <oklofok> in fact, the proof of this is a oneliner
04:37:01 <Sgeo__> There's no way to have a topological space that doesn't contain clopen things?
04:38:00 <oklofok> Sgeo__: it's pretty obvious from the definition really, first of all what set *could* the necessarily clopen thing be in all topological spaces?
04:38:13 <oklofok> i mean, what's a good guess for a set with a special property
04:38:26 <Sgeo__> null. But I think I heard that in that video...
04:38:41 <oklofok> null, and then what's the second most special thing?
04:39:01 <oklofok> hint: you don't have to look inside the space
04:39:05 <elliott> oklofok: what if u...constructed a set...with its own element
04:39:07 <Sgeo__> The set containing null, I guess (kind of like 1?), but that hardly seems special... oh
04:39:10 <elliott> THEN WHAT????????////////////////////
04:39:49 <oklofok> well, in any case null was correct
04:39:52 <oklofok> can you prove it's clopen?
04:40:11 <oklofok> "a topology is a collection T of subsets of X that's closed under arbitrary unions and finite intersections, and X and {} are in T"
04:40:41 <oklofok> recall that C closed set iff X \ C \in T
04:42:23 <Sgeo__> X-C is in T, what's X? A superset of the universe?
04:42:39 <Sgeo__> So, C contains nothing contained within the topology?
04:42:46 <oklofok> X is the underlying space we started with
04:43:03 <oklofok> we have a set X, and T, the topology of X, is a collection of subsets of X
04:43:08 <oklofok> with the properties i listed
04:43:27 <itidus20> oklo, my client is missing some chars.. so can you spell out to me what is actually shown in the line "iff X ? C ?in T"
04:43:43 <oklofok> itidus20: it's just X - C in T
04:44:00 <oklofok> the set "C subtracted from X" is in the set T
04:44:12 <Sgeo__> As long as X contains null, if C is null, X-C is ... wait what
04:44:30 <itidus20> for some reason the font i am using uses a yen symbol for a backslash sometimes
04:44:33 <Sgeo__> Is it possible for X not to contain null?
04:44:35 <oklofok> Sgeo__: yeah, what's a set minus null?
04:44:43 <oklofok> Sgeo__: X might not contain null.
04:44:59 <oklofok> obviously X is a superset of the empty set
04:45:05 <Sgeo__> Argh, I'm getting mixed up
04:45:08 <oklofok> but it doesn't have to have {} as an element
04:45:14 <Sgeo__> <oklofok> recall that C closed set iff X \ C \in T
04:45:45 <Sgeo__> T must contain null if it contans all subsets of X
04:46:12 <Sgeo__> Not that that fact's needed here, I think
04:46:16 <oklofok> T doesn't have to contain all the subsets of X
04:46:40 <itidus20> blah some other font this will do
04:46:41 <elliott> <itidus20> for some reason the font i am using uses a yen symbol for a backslash sometimes
04:46:51 <oklofok> if it contained all subsets of X, then it would be pointless to assume closure properties for it!
04:47:13 <itidus20> higashi -- quickly our cover is blown
04:47:34 <Sgeo__> I'd say that T has to contain X, but that seems to be again... althoguh I guess since sets can be nested... but then, it shouldn't have to contain X
04:48:08 <oklofok> Sgeo__: by definition T contains X
04:48:34 <itidus20> <Higashi> Sir you just told them our meeting place.
04:48:40 <Sgeo__> So, X / C is still X, which is obviously, as asserted by you, in T
04:48:41 <oklofok> {} and X are in T, and T is closed under finite intersections and arbitrary unions (i assume you know what this means because you don't ask)
04:48:51 <oklofok> Sgeo__: yes, and what does this tell you?
04:49:19 <oklofok> now let's prove it's open as well
04:49:30 <oklofok> recall U is open iff it is in T (that is, T is the set of open sets)
04:49:55 <Sgeo__> iff means "if an.. dangit
04:50:06 <Sgeo__> Basically, if one is true, the other HAS to be true
04:50:09 <oklofok> in natural language, if sometimes means if and only if as well, but in math we make a clear distinction
04:50:37 <oklofok> Sgeo__: do you have the proof?
04:50:38 * Sgeo__ almost omitted the distinction between if and iff, that's scary
04:50:58 <Sgeo__> oklofok, is this a different T?
04:51:01 <oklofok> recall that {} is in T by definition
04:51:05 <itidus20> so when i say i am dumbest here... now you get the idea ^_^
04:51:53 <Sgeo__> If it's by definition, probably not, otherwise it would be a redundant definition. Well, yes, but by direct and immediate appeal to the definition.
04:51:54 <oklofok> Sgeo__: no same T, we're taking an arbitrary space X with arbitrary topology T and proving that even for this particular choice, {} is clopen.
04:52:18 <oklofok> Sgeo__: i'm confused, does "{} is in T" follow from "{} is in T" or not?
04:52:35 <Sgeo__> yes, but it's a pointless thing to ask
04:52:47 <oklofok> how else would we prove our theorem
04:52:50 <elliott> attitude to your teacher Sgeo__
04:53:14 <oklofok> given what we proved earlier
04:53:29 <Sgeo__> Well, then null's trivially open
04:53:46 <Sgeo__> Why is "{} is in T" part of the definition? Also, must learn to never take oklofok literally
04:53:58 <oklofok> not take me literally? why?
04:54:07 <elliott> you need to be taking him more literally
04:54:08 <Sgeo__> <oklofok> let me warn you
04:54:09 <Sgeo__> <oklofok> this WILL BE DIFFICULT
04:54:29 <oklofok> "<Sgeo__> Why is "{} is in T" part of the definition?" <<< umm, because we want {} to be open?
04:54:50 <Sgeo__> So, null is clopen because we want it to be?
04:55:22 <oklofok> are you saying we should make the definition of a topological space more complicated so it would not be as easy to prove {} is clopen?
04:55:40 <Sgeo__> That's.. um. Ok, why is a definition of a topology where {} doesn't necessarily need to be contained in the topolgy not a useful definition?
04:55:57 <Sgeo__> Or is it just easier to have {} be in there?
04:56:03 <oklofok> of course it's clopen because we want it to be. anything you prove for a general topological space is true because we want it to be. we proved it from the fucking axioms we chose.
04:56:29 <oklofok> "<Sgeo__> That's.. um. Ok, why is a definition of a topology where {} doesn't necessarily need to be contained in the topolgy not a useful definition?" <<< usually you will get {} open anyway
04:56:44 <oklofok> say if you have two disjoint open sets
04:57:17 <oklofok> their intersection is open (finite intersections of open sets are open) so the empty set is open
04:58:13 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:58:21 <oklofok> anyway usually we don't do stuff with this kind of generality
04:58:26 <oklofok> usually we start with a metric.
05:00:30 <oklofok> Sgeo__: X is also clopen; in fact, if C is clopen, then X - C is always clopen, again the proof is a one-liner
05:01:02 <oklofok> since C being clopen means C and X - C are both open...
05:01:30 <Sgeo__> Maybe this is not the best place to start learning topology
05:01:58 <oklofok> it's the best way to start learning math
05:02:14 <elliott> Sgeo__: what, proving a tautology?
05:02:25 <oklofok> for learning topology without learning math, it's certainly a sucky way :D
05:02:46 <oklofok> but we would've gotten to metric spaces next and those are soooo easy
05:02:53 <Sgeo__> Maybe it's just that it's being done on RIC that's bothering me
05:03:33 <Sgeo__> Although I barely remember the definition of closed
05:04:08 <oklofok> closed = complement of a closed set
05:04:51 <oklofok> topology = collection of subsets called open sets, in particular at least {} and the space itself, such that all finite intersections of open sets are open sets as well, and all unions of open sets are open
05:05:34 <Sgeo__> What's an infinite intersection?
05:05:38 <oklofok> let X be a space. then a metric on X is a function d : X * X -> R such that: d(x, x) = 0 for all x, d
05:05:53 <oklofok> no i just accidentally pressed enter
05:06:27 <oklofok> let X be a space. then a metric on X is a function d : X * X -> R^+ (nonnegative reals) such that: d(x, x) = 0 for all x, d(x, y) = d(y, x) and the triangle inequality holds
05:06:40 <Sgeo__> I'm scared that I won't remember this any more than that beautiful demonstration of why e^ix = cos x + i sin x
05:06:58 <oklofok> triangle inequality = d(x, z) <= d(x, y) + d(y, z)
05:07:10 <oklofok> these are really obvious things to ask from a metric if you think about it
05:07:27 <Sgeo__> Are X any old things, or are they necessarily numbers?
05:08:06 <Sgeo__> Ok, so that makes sense. I think.
05:08:21 <oklofok> we're measuring distances so obviously it's 0 from x to itself, and obviously it's the same from x to y as it is from y to x. the triangle inequality just says you can't get from x to z faster by going through a third point y.
05:08:42 <Sgeo__> Intuitively, thinking of points is easier for why it's <= and not =, I think
05:09:10 <oklofok> well = wouldn't really make sense
05:09:25 <elliott> "the triangle inequality just says you can't get from x to z faster by going through a third point y."
05:09:28 <oklofok> going from x to x is 0, but going from x to x via another point obviously gives you some distance
05:09:28 <Sgeo__> It does if you're foolishly imagining X to be real numbers
05:09:54 <oklofok> d(0, 0) = 0 but d(0, 1) + d(1, 0) = 2
05:10:08 <oklofok> the usual metric on R is |x - y|
05:10:18 <oklofok> (distance is always nonnegative, obviously enough)
05:11:05 <oklofok> so now the cool thing: if X is a space (that is, a set) and d is a metric on it, then d "induces" a natural topology for X
05:11:31 <oklofok> inducing just means we can associate a topology to X once we have a metric
05:11:57 <Sgeo__> But there can be other topologies for X?
05:12:10 <oklofok> the topology is: U is open if and only if for all x in U, there is some r such that B_r(x) \subset U where B_r(x) is defined as the set {y | d(x, y) < r}
05:12:21 <oklofok> Sgeo__: yes, many many many topologies.
05:12:29 <oklofok> and many many many metrics
05:12:48 <Sgeo__> Any topologies for which there isn't a corresponding metric?
05:13:01 <oklofok> a topology is called metrizable if there is a metric for it
05:13:07 <oklofok> and most natural topologies are metrizable
05:13:27 <Sgeo__> Open == it's in the topology, right?
05:13:52 <oklofok> so note that B_r(x) is just a ball around x
05:14:06 <Sgeo__> What's the | notation mean
05:14:22 <oklofok> {y | d(x, y) < r} means every y such that d(x, y) is less than r
05:14:28 <oklofok> the set of all such y that is
05:15:25 <Sgeo__> So, for each x in U, it has to be possible to make a ball of some size around it?
05:16:02 <oklofok> a ball which is still completely inside U
05:16:19 <oklofok> so basically open sets are ones that have no points "at their borders"
05:17:18 <Sgeo__> So a set that has points at the borders, is not open, and therefore not in the topology?
05:17:42 <oklofok> yes. assuming your intuitive idea of a border is correct.
05:17:48 <oklofok> so okay now the metric has given us a set of open sets. what's missing?
05:18:05 <Sgeo__> You listed other conditions for a topology
05:18:26 <Sgeo__> Um, intersections (finite?) of open are open, and unions of open are open
05:18:53 <oklofok> we need to show this collection of open sets actually satisfies what we require from a topology
05:19:10 <oklofok> first the trivial things: {} and X need to be open. are they?
05:19:14 <Sgeo__> I'm kind of intuitively thinking of a plane.
05:19:45 <Sgeo__> There's nothing in {} that needs to be able to have a ball around, so yes.
05:19:51 <oklofok> just that stuff out of the actual proofs :)
05:20:03 <oklofok> {} is rather trivially open by that definition of open
05:20:52 <Sgeo__> X can't have borders with contents. I don't see anything we've done that prevents that. (X isn't the topology, but that which contains the topology, right?)
05:21:11 <oklofok> well we don't actually have the concept of a border
05:21:35 <oklofok> you have to apply the definition: X is open iff for all x in X there's a ball around x that's completely within X
05:22:09 <Sgeo__> What's preventing X from having a point at infinity, so to... well, the definition of the metric, I guess.
05:22:41 <oklofok> R^2 + a point at infinity is a metric space.
05:23:12 <Sgeo__> Oh. Thought d() had to return a real non-negative number? Infinity would be an extended real
05:23:45 <oklofok> distances have to be finite yes
05:23:45 <Sgeo__> Can the ball be infinitely large?
05:24:02 <oklofok> doesn't mean you can't make a metric for R^2 + a point at infinity
05:24:33 <Sgeo__> Oh. But then, that doesn't capture what I was trying to get at with the point at infinity, which is being unable to make a ball around it
05:24:33 <oklofok> the usual topology of R^2 is given by all kinds of different metrics! you're right in that the usual one doesn't directly extend for R^2 + point at infinity.
05:25:38 <oklofok> why couldn't you make a ball around it?
05:25:43 <oklofok> obviously you can make a ball around anything
05:26:10 <Sgeo__> But then the ball could partially extend in the wrong direction?
05:26:10 <oklofok> the ball or radius r around x \in X is the set B_r(x) = {y \in X | d(x, y) < r}
05:26:37 <oklofok> the type y \in X is very important, i figured that's obvious but maybe it's not at all
05:27:08 <Sgeo__> I don't see why X would have to contain all the contents of the ball. But honestly, I get the impression that the correct answer is supposed to be that yes, X is open. But I just can't get there.
05:27:11 <oklofok> (it's just X is our only source of points so where else could y be)
05:27:28 <oklofok> Sgeo__: by definition, X contains all the points of a ball
05:27:32 <oklofok> B_r(x) = {y \in X | d(x, y) < r}
05:28:09 <Sgeo__> Ok, what about an X with exactly 1 point?
05:28:19 <Sgeo__> Well, then there's itself at distance 0
05:29:04 * Sgeo__ glares at B_r(x) again and realizes that the distance can be 0. Ok, yes, X is open.
05:29:05 <oklofok> B_r(x) is a subset of X that occasionally looks like something you and i might call a ball.
05:29:23 <oklofok> yep, X is open, what ball did you find around the point x \in X?
05:29:44 <Sgeo__> The entire universe, if r is large enough
05:29:56 <Sgeo__> erm, the entire contents of X
05:29:56 <oklofok> well no r needs to give you the entire universe
05:30:03 <Sgeo__> Sorry for the melodramatics
05:30:14 <oklofok> doesn't in the case of R^2 for instance
05:30:20 <oklofok> it's occasionally called the universe
05:30:54 <Sgeo__> But at the very least, for every x in X, there's a ball around itself containing it, and possibly others.
05:31:24 <oklofok> well perhaps you just don't know what i want you to say: any r > 0 will do. say r = 1.
05:31:50 <oklofok> okay, not let U_1, ..., U_k be a finite family of open sets. we need to show their intersection is open as well.
05:32:17 <oklofok> that's not just an application of the definitions, although not that much more either
05:33:13 <oklofok> what you have to do is take the intersection U = U_1 \cap ... \cap U_k, consider a point x \in U, and show that there's a ball around x that's completely within U.
05:35:23 <oklofok> actually union is a bit easier
05:35:47 <oklofok> note that unions can be arbitrary, you could even have an uncountable number of open sets that you're taking the union of
05:35:49 <Sgeo__> Sorry, concentration lapsing
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07:01:55 <pikhq> *Aaaah*, fucking up the railroading in D&D.
07:04:22 <pikhq> Person held in a prison that was in an antimagic field, nigh-impossible to break, DM figured we'd give up pretty soon.
07:04:49 <zzo38> If the player can figure it out, that is how you play D&D. By figuring out solutions to those kind of things.
07:05:34 <pikhq> Instead, we used pretty much every buff, turned a handy corpse into a giant stone javelin, and made an opening using a strength of 46.
07:06:21 <zzo38> Yes, it is how it is done. The game is better with these kind of situations at least my opinion.
07:06:27 <pikhq> zzo38: I'm just saying, I love coming up with ridiculous solutions to problems that weren't intended to be solvable.
07:06:35 <pikhq> Yes, it really *does* make it a better game.
07:07:31 <pikhq> At least, if you have the sorts of players that would actually do that.
07:07:32 <zzo38> Especially if the ridiculous solution might involve mathematics.
07:08:15 <pikhq> (which is, of course, the most fun sort to play with)
07:08:20 <zzo38> I am the sorts of players that would actually do that. And the DM sometimes makes such things and I tell him to make such things too
07:09:54 <zzo38> I suggested starting a Level 20 campaign (note: D&D 3.5 edition). The DM said both of us start with no money, no equipment. Both of us agreed. I selected the Spell Mastery feat twice.
07:10:26 <zzo38> My brother selected the Soulknife class, which can create weapons by psychic energy.
07:11:26 <zzo38> (I have 5 Wizard levels, he has 12 Soulknife levels. Neither of us has multiclassed yet (although I plan to).)
07:11:35 <pikhq> Druid's probably a good choice, too.
07:11:55 <pikhq> "Equipment? Fuck that, I'm a fucking elemental."
07:12:11 <zzo38> O, I also selected Eschew Materials (one of the useful uses of this feat in this situation)
07:12:49 <zzo38> Druid would work too. Although you would have to find an item to use as divine focus (not too difficult, just look in the trees).
07:13:18 <zzo38> Both of us character sheets I have copied into the computer and you can view them if you want to.
07:13:46 <pikhq> Not particularly interested; I can pretty well figure out where you went with the build, and I'
07:13:52 <pikhq> m likely to go to sleep somewhat soon.
07:14:07 <pikhq> Neat campaign idea, though. :)
07:15:14 <zzo38> We have also agreed a bit on the story (part of it has changed somewhat from the original (I didn't know at first) due to the character choices, although now it all makes sense with the choices. My character helped his character escape from an island having slaves (he was a gladiator slave) by a merchant ship. We wear nothing but rags.
07:19:06 <zzo38> (I also suggested that his character could multiclass into Warlock class, having an unlimited use of eldritch blast, up to 250 feet if you learn the correct invocations for that!)
07:19:45 <zzo38> (Since the thrown mind blades do not have that much range)
07:20:41 <zzo38> Note also both of us created our character without knowing each other's character ahead of time. I made this suggestion.
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07:42:08 <pikhq> ... Wut. Openly gay man voted to statewide office... In *Utah*.
07:44:29 <pikhq> Admittedly, chairman of the Democratic Party in the state.
07:45:09 <pikhq> Still. Fucking *Utah*.
07:45:27 <coppro> pikhq: It wasn't non-Austin Texas
07:46:08 <pikhq> coppro: Bit more notable, actually. 60% of Utah is Mormon.
07:46:42 <pikhq> Which is so rabidly antigay that they're just shy of lynch mobs.
07:47:43 <pikhq> Incidentally... 60% of Utah is registered Republicans.
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07:48:17 <pikhq> Likely the same people, actually.
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09:00:57 <CakeProphet> you know what is more delicious than M&M's?
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09:07:53 * Sgeo__ is very amused by events in #jesus
09:09:04 <Sgeo__> (Those events are over now though, no point n joining now
09:09:14 <pikhq> Sgeo__: Why do you torture yourself so?
09:09:29 <Sgeo__> Because sometimes amusing things happen?
09:11:39 <Sgeo__> (Jason was ranting on and on about something, Eliyahu was posting his usual apocalyptic junk. Op yelled at Jason, Jason said Eliyahu was spamming, asked op to boot them. Op asked if he wanted him to boot the troublemaker, Jason said to boot the spammer, Jason gets booted.
09:14:49 <Taneb> There's a lot of spam on the wiki
09:14:57 <Taneb> brb, switching computers
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09:41:14 <zzo38> pikhq: Are you sure you can figure out where I went with the build? The game has not actually started yet. Also, my selections of things (spells, powers, feats, skills, etc) are often unusual selections.
09:42:02 <zzo38> For my brother, of course there isn't much selections since he has Soulknife class (no spells/etc to select)
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09:44:04 <Taneb> I read that has Soupknife
09:44:20 <zzo38> OK, now figure out how to do Soupknife.
09:44:46 <zzo38> It would be difficult since you would usually use a spoon for soup, not knife
09:45:56 <Taneb> Unless it was badly made
09:46:18 <zzo38> Yes I suppose that might also be the possibility, maybe
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10:13:47 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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10:59:43 <lambdabot> forall a k. (Ord k) => (a -> a -> a) -> [(k, a)] -> M.Map k a
11:01:42 <CakeProphet> > M.toList $ M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) $ "This is a tyical English sentence, using quite a variety of characters."
11:02:28 <CakeProphet> > M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) $ "This is a tyical English sentence"
11:02:31 <lambdabot> fromList [(' ',5),('E',1),('T',1),('a',2),('c',2),('e',3),('g',1),('h',2),(...
11:04:24 <CakeProphet> > M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) . map toLower $ "This is a typical English sentence"
11:04:26 <lambdabot> fromList [(' ',5),('a',2),('c',2),('e',4),('g',1),('h',2),('i',4),('l',2),(...
11:05:35 <lambdabot> forall a. (Ord a) => a -> a -> Ordering
11:06:12 <CakeProphet> > sortBy (compare.snd) . to M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) . map toLower $ "This is a typical English sentence"
11:06:27 <CakeProphet> > sortBy (compare.snd) . toList . M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) . map toLower $ "This is a typical English sentence"
11:06:43 <CakeProphet> > sortBy (compare.snd) . M.toList . M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) . map toLower $ "This is a typical English sentence"
11:06:44 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = (a, b)
11:11:54 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> Ordering) -> [a] -> [a]
11:12:43 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (Ord a) => (a1, a) -> a -> Ordering
11:13:46 <CakeProphet> > sortBy (compare `on` snd) . M.toList . M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) . map toLower $ "This is a typical English sentence"
11:13:48 <lambdabot> [('g',1),('p',1),('y',1),('a',2),('c',2),('h',2),('l',2),('n',3),('t',3),('...
11:14:03 <CakeProphet> > sortBy (flip compare `on` snd) . M.toList . M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) . map toLower $ "This is a typical English sentence"
11:14:05 <lambdabot> [(' ',5),('e',4),('i',4),('s',4),('n',3),('t',3),('a',2),('c',2),('h',2),('...
11:16:50 <CakeProphet> !addinterp hist haskell print . sortBy (flip compare `on` snd) . M.toList . M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) . map toLower =<< getContents
11:16:51 <EgoBot> Interpreter hist installed.
11:17:51 <EgoBot> Interpreter hist deleted.
11:17:56 <EgoBot> Interpreter hist installed.
11:18:06 <EgoBot> is not a user interpreter.
11:18:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter hist deleted.
11:18:38 <CakeProphet> !addinterp hist haskell sortBy (flip compare `on` snd) . M.toList . M.fromListWith (+) . (`zip` repeat 1) . map toLower <$> getContents
11:18:38 <EgoBot> Interpreter hist installed.
11:20:02 <EgoBot> Interpreter hist deleted.
11:21:29 <Taneb> ...Is a histogram appropriate for letter frequency?
11:24:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
11:24:40 <lambdabot> against inferred type `[a1] -> [...
11:24:46 <lambdabot> [" ",",","H","eeee","ll","n","oo","r","v","y"]
11:25:42 <Taneb> I might learn Haskell
11:25:52 <CakeProphet> > map (head&&&length) . group . sort $ "Hello, everyone"
11:25:54 <lambdabot> [(' ',1),(',',1),('H',1),('e',4),('l',2),('n',1),('o',2),('r',1),('v',1),('...
11:27:40 <CakeProphet> This one is probably slower, but I'm not really sure.
11:28:19 <Taneb> The output is longer
11:28:41 <CakeProphet> the output is based on the input, which was different.
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11:29:10 <CakeProphet> Taneb: er, you're talking about something else.
11:29:57 <CakeProphet> the first function was: toList . fromListWith (+) . (`zip repeat 1)
11:30:16 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:30:35 <CakeProphet> toList is optionally. Map probably makes more sense anyways.
11:30:35 * ais523 vaguely advertises NetHack and variants tournament: http://junethack.rawrnix.com
11:31:16 <Taneb> I'm no good at NetHack
11:31:45 <Taneb> And elliott, if you feel morally superior to me due to OS, check now
11:33:19 <ais523> Taneb: you don't have to be any good at NetHack, just play it a bit and you'll end up better
11:33:28 <ais523> also, OS = open source or operating system or something else
11:37:11 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
11:37:15 <Taneb> I use it because it works and it's already there
11:37:38 <Taneb> Gonna switch soon, maybe
11:37:47 <lambdabot> ["abc","ab","ac","a","bc","b","c",""]
11:38:48 <CakeProphet> > let f n = length . filterM (const [True, False]) $ replicate n ' ' in f 4
11:39:10 <CakeProphet> > let f n = length . filterM (const [True, False]) $ replicate n ' ' in f 5
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11:39:56 <CakeProphet> the most efficient way to write (2^) in Haskell
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11:49:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, how do I get wget to recursively retrieve all files below a certaint point in a hierarchy?
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11:51:42 <ais523> it still requires links to the files in question to exist, otherwise it has no way to determine that they're there
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11:54:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a pain to find in the man page; I only found it so quickly because I already knew where on the page it was
11:54:55 <ais523> and even then it took a couple of minutes
11:55:23 <CakeProphet> > filterM (\x -> if x < 5 then [True] else [True,False]) [0..10]
11:55:24 <lambdabot> [[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10],[0,1...
11:55:46 <CakeProphet> > filterM (\x -> if x < 3 then [True] else [True,False]) [0..4]
11:55:47 <lambdabot> [[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,4],[0,1,2]]
11:56:06 <elliott> ais523: ive started to have opinions on java ides... ive turned into...my worst friend
11:56:34 <Taneb> Well, I'm not going to learn Haskell just yet
11:56:48 <ais523> elliott: positive or negative opinions?
11:57:02 <ais523> with Java, you can be OK having opinions on IDEs, because it's designed to need one
11:57:08 <ais523> compared to, say, OCaml/Haskell, which doesn't
11:57:23 <CakeProphet> ais523: I think he means that he thinks some Java IDEs are better than others.
11:57:25 <Taneb> BECAUSE IT WON'T LET ME INSTALL THE THINGY
11:57:30 <ais523> CakeProphet: that is not surprising at all
11:57:39 <CakeProphet> and will possibly debate this with some one
11:57:41 <ais523> if they were all identical, there'd be no reason for more than one to exist
11:58:28 <elliott> and how are you trying to install it
11:58:40 <Taneb> Natty Narwhal, Software Centre
11:58:48 <elliott> that is not the haskell platform
11:58:59 <elliott> Taneb: don't use the package manager to install it
11:59:04 <elliott> natty is ancient, it doesn't even have the platform IIRC
11:59:09 <elliott> ais523: you see, /Eclipse/ deludes you into thinking that everything is going to be smooth automatic sailing. but if you need a separate build system, it completely falls apart.
11:59:15 <Taneb> Natty came out in April
11:59:41 <elliott> Taneb: does "sudo apt-get install haskell-platform" not work?\
11:59:48 <elliott> dunno about the software centre
11:59:51 <ais523> elliott: Netbeans does everything using Ant, which is a pretty frustrating build system
11:59:53 <elliott> but i think the package is called that
12:00:22 <elliott> ais523: yes i was about to get to netbeans. you see, i installed it, then i uninstalled it three seconds later when it used Swing -> horrible Java font rendering and also everything was ugly and slow.
12:00:30 <Taneb> Depends: ghc6 (< 6.12.1+) but 6.12.3-1ubuntu7 is to be installed
12:00:32 <Taneb> E: Broken packages
12:00:33 <NihilistDandy> Eclipse is part of the reason I'll never write for Android
12:00:37 <elliott> ais523: I decided to startusing Maven
12:00:47 <elliott> Taneb: can you pastebin your /etc/apt/sources.list?
12:00:54 <elliott> ais523: you teach java and don't know what maven is...?
12:01:00 <ais523> elliott: I thought it was a build system
12:01:09 <elliott> it's so enterprisey, you have no idea.
12:01:19 <elliott> you define a Project Object Model which produces Artifacts.
12:01:19 <ais523> that's why I was surprised that you were mentioning it in a context that implied it was an IDE
12:01:31 <elliott> which has Dependencies on Artifacts. and it locates those Dependencies from Repositories that you specify.
12:01:32 <ais523> and I knew it was XML-based and enterprisey, but I didn't know how enterprisey
12:01:40 <elliott> and each invocation is a Build Lifecycle.
12:01:47 <elliott> ais523: here's the thing: it's actually less painful than ant :D
12:01:59 <elliott> Taneb: it sounds like you have broken repos
12:01:59 <ais523> what about just using make?
12:02:09 <ais523> that's what I do for Jettyplay
12:02:10 <Taneb> http://pastebin.com/j1gdZ994
12:02:12 <elliott> ais523: well at this point, I was split between two paths
12:02:14 <ais523> I use autoconf, too, just because I can
12:02:23 <elliott> ais523: either I would get it working perfectly and Maven and all Java(tm)
12:02:31 <elliott> ais523: or I would start using any old editor and a shell script to build
12:02:44 <ais523> all it does is determine the locations of things like javac and jar
12:03:03 <elliott> Taneb: try sudo apt-get remove ghc6?
12:03:53 <Taneb> The following packages have unmet dependencies.
12:03:55 <Taneb> haskell-platform : Depends: ghc6 (< 6.12.1+) but 6.12.3-1ubuntu7 is to be installed
12:03:57 <Taneb> E: Broken packages
12:04:13 <elliott> ais523: anyway, so then I decided to give IDEA a second shot, since every Bukkit person seemed to be constantly saving about how advanced and analysisy it is, so I put its weird-ass default of allowing you to put the cursor outside of line boundaries
12:04:17 <elliott> Taneb: I'm not really sure
12:04:46 <ais523> Taneb: try aptitude -f update
12:04:48 <ais523> to see if it can fix them
12:04:51 <elliott> ais523: turns out it's great and also everyone should use it and it integrates perfectly with Maven. also, it knows more about my code than any machine has a right to deduce. also, it uses Swing too but it has a theme that makes it tolerable. why do i have opinions like this.
12:04:54 <elliott> ais523: no aptitude in recent ubuntu
12:04:59 <elliott> and it'd be upgrade, not update
12:05:05 <ais523> elliott: it's anything
12:05:05 <elliott> Taneb: sudo apt-get -f install
12:05:14 <elliott> ais523: but it's not aptitude :P
12:05:15 <ais523> the -f tells it to fix broken packages and mostly ignore the rest of the command line
12:05:28 <Taneb> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
12:05:30 <ais523> huh, apt-get does have -f now
12:05:33 <elliott> ais523: ANYWAY, my point is: IntelliJ IDEA is good and all other IDEs are stinking badthings
12:05:40 <ais523> it didn't last I looked, that's why I checked aptitude
12:05:58 <elliott> NihilistDandy: this is java, suspend logic at the door
12:06:08 <ais523> I actually like the "fix broken packages" option in synaptic best
12:06:13 <ais523> I don't think the software centre has an alternative
12:06:23 <ais523> elliott: Abandon common sense! This is reality!
12:06:26 <ais523> my favourite line from Pokémon
12:06:31 <elliott> like I've said, IDEs are basically a tool for one-way destructuring of intentions that cannot later be reified (only I know what this means)
12:06:38 <elliott> (but my entire computing philosophy is based on its being evil)
12:06:56 <ais523> such a great line is rather out of character for the game
12:07:21 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Naive_realism.jpg bets image on wikipedia
12:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Reified literally means 'thingified', which cannot be beaten.
12:07:53 <ais523> elliott: I don't get it
12:07:57 <ais523> but that makes it a good image in its own right
12:08:45 <NihilistDandy> I used to link people to a page about nihilism when they'd ask me about it
12:08:57 <elliott> ais523: getting it would ruin it
12:09:03 <elliott> goodness is based mostly on incomprehensibility
12:09:20 <ais523> I was wondering if that was it
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12:09:32 <ais523> also, thanks for linking to the file description page rather than linking to the image directly
12:11:31 <elliott> ais523: I wanted to link to it directly to keep the absurdism alive but then I realised you'd yell at me
12:11:36 <ais523> wow, ABCD is much worse than ABCDXYZ
12:11:42 <elliott> So I stomped around grumpily for a few seconds then cried
12:11:44 <ais523> orders of magnitude, in fact
12:12:12 <Taneb> Should I reinstall that thing you got me to remove to see if it would make it work?
12:13:01 <ais523> elliott: why did you userfy a spam page?
12:13:28 <elliott> i need to study the source material
12:13:33 <ais523> could you save a local copy for the time being, then?
12:13:39 <ais523> it's still spam, regardless of what namespace it's in
12:13:47 <elliott> ais523: it's art now. but FINE
12:14:15 <elliott> hmm "The 12 Steps For Adult Children." I'm thinking a RUBE type thing, except in abstract object space rather than twodee space
12:15:00 <ais523> hmm, it appears to be creating a linkfarm on a bunch of unrelated wikis
12:15:05 <ais523> in an attempt to boost pagerank that way, I suppose
12:15:18 <ais523> it's a pity these spambots haven't heard of nofollow, the spamming technique they're using doesn't even work
12:15:18 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: Gentoo's probably your best bet, unless you're really tied to Ubuntu
12:15:29 <Taneb> That happened to a wiki I admin
12:15:48 <ais523> for bonus points, the link to the page they're actually trying to promote is invalid (no TLD)
12:15:48 <Taneb> The owner blocked account registration or something
12:15:54 <Taneb> You cannot stop it
12:15:59 <Taneb> They just keep on comming
12:16:13 <ais523> presumably to hide it from Google, and hope that people follow the link anyway
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12:16:29 <ais523> and we're pretty tenacious at stopping spambots
12:16:38 <ais523> occasionally I ask graue to change something on the backend to help
12:16:44 <ais523> but only in a real emergency
12:16:50 <ais523> they do keep on coming, but we keep on blocking them
12:16:54 <ais523> and they have to run out of IPs eventually
12:17:09 <Taneb> So /that's/ why IPv4 is running out
12:17:09 <ais523> Graue will probably just ban <br> or something if they keep turning up
12:17:40 <ais523> spambots are the reason <div and <span don't work on Esolang
12:18:10 <Taneb> Gonna have lunch now, bye
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12:22:56 <CakeProphet> > join (++) . (inits . repeat) =<< sequence $ "abc"
12:22:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> b'
12:23:16 <CakeProphet> > join (++) . (inits . repeat) >>= sequence $ "abc"
12:23:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]' against inferred type `a -> a1'
12:23:32 <CakeProphet> > map join (++) . (inits . repeat) >>= sequence $ "abc"
12:23:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[m (m a)]'
12:23:46 <CakeProphet> > map join (++) . ((inits . repeat) >>= sequence) $ "abc"
12:23:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[m (m a)]'
12:23:54 <CakeProphet> :t ((inits . repeat) >>= sequence) $ "abc"
12:23:55 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]' against inferred type `a -> a'
12:25:31 <CakeProphet> > map ((++) `ap` reverse) . (inits . repeat) "abc" >>= sequence
12:25:33 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","c","c","b","a","aa","ab","ac","ac","ab","aa","ba","bb","bc","b...
12:26:35 <CakeProphet> > map ((++) `ap` reverse) $ (inits . repeat) "abc" >>= sequence
12:26:36 <lambdabot> ["","aa","bb","cc","aaaa","abba","acca","baab","bbbb","bccb","caac","cbbc",...
12:27:27 <CakeProphet> awww yeah, list of all palindromes in an alphabet.
12:28:36 <CakeProphet> > map ((++) `ap` reverse) $ (inits . repeat) "race" >>= sequence
12:28:37 <lambdabot> ["","rr","aa","cc","ee","rrrr","raar","rccr","reer","arra","aaaa","acca","a...
12:28:55 <CakeProphet> somewhere in that sequence is "racecar" :P
12:32:37 <CakeProphet> now if only I had an isEnglishWord function..
12:34:00 <CakeProphet> also I think (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence
12:34:23 <CakeProphet> is probably the more elegant alternative to (`replicateM` alphabet) =<< [0..]
12:35:43 <CakeProphet> "pleases the way my brain interprets the code"
12:36:40 <CakeProphet> replace "the code" with "it" for other things.
12:36:41 <NihilistDandy> > fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap (fmap fmap fmap) fmap fmap sum (fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap read) return show $ 635
12:38:29 <ais523> @unpl fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap (fmap fmap fmap) fmap fmap sum (fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap read) return show
12:38:30 <lambdabot> fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap (fmap fmap fmap) fmap fmap sum (fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap read) return show
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12:38:59 <ais523> how is anyone meant to know what that does?
12:39:19 <ais523> do all the fmaps cancel each other out?
12:39:46 <Taneb> Is that a digital sum calculator thing?
12:39:49 <NihilistDandy> @type fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
12:39:50 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *) a1 (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f1, Functor f) => (a1 -> a -> b) -> f1 a1 -> f1 (f a -> f b)
12:40:06 <elliott> <ais523> do all the fmaps cancel each other out?
12:40:21 <elliott> it's something like all the ones past three make no effect
12:40:23 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
12:40:25 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => f1 (a -> b) -> f1 (f a -> f b)
12:40:26 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
12:40:26 <elliott> ?ty fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
12:40:27 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *) a b (f2 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1, Functor f2) => f (f1 (a -> b)) -> f (f1 (f2 a -> f2 b))
12:40:27 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *) a1 b. (Functor f) => (a1 -> b) -> (a -> a1) -> f a -> f b
12:40:31 <ais523> oh, and I think I can vaguely work out why, too
12:42:23 <CakeProphet> I wonder if there's a better way to generate every palindrome in an alphabet.
12:42:50 <CakeProphet> > map ((++) `ap` reverse) $ (inits . repeat) "abc" >>= sequence
12:42:51 <lambdabot> ["","aa","bb","cc","aaaa","abba","acca","baab","bbbb","bccb","caac","cbbc",...
12:44:22 <Taneb> It only does even lengthed ones
12:44:52 <ais523> NihilistDandy: fear of palindromes?
12:44:55 <CakeProphet> hmmm, okay, this is now a much more difficult problem. :P
12:45:34 <NihilistDandy> > map ((++) `ap` reverse) $ (inits . repeat) "ab" >>= sequence
12:45:35 <lambdabot> ["","aa","bb","aaaa","abba","baab","bbbb","aaaaaa","aabbaa","abaaba","abbbb...
12:45:49 <NihilistDandy> > map ((++) `ap` reverse) $ (inits . repeat) "a" >>= sequence
12:45:51 <lambdabot> ["","aa","aaaa","aaaaaa","aaaaaaaa","aaaaaaaaaa","aaaaaaaaaaaa","aaaaaaaaaa...
12:46:05 <Taneb> E: monitor rot in Nome.
12:46:06 <CakeProphet> for each even length palindrome there needs to be an number of odd palidromes equal to the number of elements
12:46:35 <CakeProphet> where basically the alphabet character is concatenated in the center of the even length string
12:46:48 <CakeProphet> this would give a, b, and c by performing this in the case of "" ++ ""
12:47:22 <ais523> for each even length palindrome but the null string, you can create an odd length palindrome by removing one of the letters in the middle
12:47:51 <quintopia> alternately, you could delete on of the middle characters from the next rank of palindromes
12:49:31 <lambdabot> forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
12:49:38 <lambdabot> forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
12:50:32 <Taneb> Zen E.C. nip pince-nez
12:50:54 <fizzie> Was late, my ball. Lab Y: metal saw.
12:51:22 <elliott> Gare isn't... strictly a word.
12:51:39 <Taneb> Do nine men interpret? Nine men, I nod!
12:52:53 <Taneb> A ninja, A.J. Nina.
12:53:44 <elliott> Archaeology: ancient cry -- yrc tneicna ygoloeahcra.
12:55:29 <Taneb> mod $nar = "Finn" if random().
12:55:55 <elliott> NihilistDandy: where do you learn your skills...
12:56:01 <NihilistDandy> Reviled did I live, said I, as evil I did deliver.
12:56:05 <elliott> NihilistDandy: where do you learn your skills...
12:57:05 <elliott> Modenil capra; ARPA-C line DOM.
12:57:13 <NihilistDandy> I dunno. Once you see a lot of palindromes, they start to come easy :D
12:57:22 <olsner> yrc tneicna looks like gaelic or something... could be a brand of whiskey
12:57:30 <Taneb> Wednesday 'ad sen dew.
12:57:52 <elliott> NihilistDandy: was that a palindrome
13:01:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `m a'
13:01:30 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Types...
13:01:35 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]
13:02:35 <quintopia> i just learned that "Palin" is greek for "backwards"...this explains a lot about American politics
13:03:06 <Taneb> And certain travel documentaries made by a former member of Monty Python?
13:04:17 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f GHC.Types.Char))
13:04:22 <elliott> > map pure "abc" :: [String]
13:04:27 <lambdabot> forall a a1. a -> [a -> a1] -> [a1]
13:04:27 <elliott> also map return, map (:[]), etc.
13:04:37 <CakeProphet> I guess I'll just have to manually concat the []...
13:07:05 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = map ((((,) `ap` reverse)) $ (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence >>= (\x y -> map (\z -> x++z++y) ([]:map pure alphabet)) `ap` reverse
13:07:06 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
13:07:12 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = map ((((,) `ap` reverse)) $ (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence >>= (\x y -> map (\z -> x++z++y) ([]:map pure alphabet)) `ap` reverse in palindromes "abc"
13:07:13 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
13:07:50 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence >>= (\x y -> map (\z -> x++z++y) ([]:map pure alphabet)) `ap` reverse in palindromes "abc"
13:07:51 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","c","aa","aaa","aba","aca","bb","bab","bbb","bcb","cc","cac","c...
13:08:25 <CakeProphet> @pl (\x y -> map (\z -> x++z++y) ([]:map pure alphabet)) `ap` reverse
13:08:25 <lambdabot> flip (flip . (map .) . (. flip (++)) . (.) . (++)) ([] : map pure alphabet) `ap` reverse
13:09:36 <NihilistDandy> Off to watch the Puma Man and pass out before work. Adios, all
13:09:53 <CakeProphet> there might be a fancier way to do that, but really the only way I can think of is to use >>= with a function that produces a list containing the even palidrome and its associated odd palindromes
13:10:59 <CakeProphet> if I didn't need the empty string in the list I could simply pass alphabet to that map and use z:y instead of z++y
13:12:14 <CakeProphet> @pl (\x y -> [x++y, map (\z -> x++z:y) alphabet]) `ap` reverse
13:12:14 <lambdabot> ap (ap . ((:) .) . (++)) (flip flip [] . ((:) .) . flip flip alphabet . (map .) . (. flip (:)) . (.) . (++)) `ap` reverse
13:12:20 <Taneb> What is "" backwards?
13:12:35 <Taneb> So, nothing is nothing backwards
13:12:40 <NihilistDandy> There are no characters to order, so no order to reverse
13:13:24 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence >>= (\x y -> [x++y, map (\z -> x++z:y) alphabet]) `ap` reverse in palindromes "abc"
13:13:25 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = [a]
13:13:44 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence >>= (\x y -> [x++y, map (\z -> x++(z:y)) alphabet]) `ap` reverse in palindromes "abc"
13:13:45 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = [a]
13:14:06 <CakeProphet> in any case, I'm talking about the empty string for the last part of the code
13:14:37 <CakeProphet> I need the empty string so that mapping x++z++y will produce the even lengthed one
13:15:52 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence >>= (\x y -> (x++y) : map (\z -> x++z:y) alphabet) `ap` reverse in palindromes "abc"
13:15:54 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","c","aa","aaa","aba","aca","bb","bab","bbb","bcb","cc","cac","c...
13:16:33 <CakeProphet> @pl (\x y -> (x++y) : map (\z -> x++z:y) alphabet
13:16:34 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator, ":", "++", "<+>" or ")"
13:16:36 <CakeProphet> @pl (\x y -> (x++y) : map (\z -> x++z:y) alphabet)
13:16:36 <lambdabot> ap (ap . ((:) .) . (++)) (flip flip alphabet . (map .) . (. flip (:)) . (.) . (++))
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13:18:03 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence >>= (\x y -> (x++y) : map ((x++).(:y)) alphabet) `ap` reverse in palindromes "abc"
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13:18:04 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","c","aa","aaa","aba","aca","bb","bab","bbb","bcb","cc","cac","c...
13:18:18 <CakeProphet> but I think the x and y variables are pretty much necessary to maintain clarity.
13:19:18 <CakeProphet> the "delete a character from the middle" approach might be shorter with the use of functions from Data.List
13:20:01 <CakeProphet> yes but that's not the only thing there....
13:20:22 <NihilistDandy> I know. It just seems like some refactoring could get rid of that silly thing :D
13:20:33 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or ")"
13:21:33 <CakeProphet> I guess two flips and 3 compositions is where I draw the line. :P
13:22:11 <CakeProphet> once I understand them in a way that is intuitive...
13:23:16 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
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13:24:03 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
13:24:48 <NihilistDandy> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
13:24:49 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *) a1 (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f1, Functor f) => (a1 -> a -> b) -> f1 a1 -> f1 (f a -> f b)
13:25:22 <CakeProphet> in fact I like this palidrome code so much I think I will save it.
13:25:28 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *) (f2 :: * -> *) a b (f3 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1, Functor f2, Functor f3) => f (f1 (f2 (a -> b))) -> f (f1 (f2 (f3 a -> f3 b)))
13:25:32 <CakeProphet> since it's not something I can pull from memory.
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13:26:22 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => f (a -> b) -> f (f1 a -> f1 b)
13:29:55 <CakeProphet> is also equal to (inits . repeat) alphabet >>= sequence
13:31:39 <NihilistDandy> Or for some, if I want to stick to my kind of wrong one
13:31:43 <CakeProphet> I think Control.Monad and Data.List are the only dependencies.
13:31:58 <lambdabot> Control.Monad ap :: Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
13:31:58 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.ArtPoint ap :: Graph gr => gr a b -> [Node]
13:31:59 <lambdabot> Control.Arrow app :: ArrowApply a => a (a b c, b) c
13:32:23 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString reverse :: ByteString -> ByteString
13:32:33 <CakeProphet> using replicateM I need only Control.Monad so... I'll do that.
13:32:37 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Lazy repeat :: Word8 -> ByteString
13:32:40 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString inits :: ByteString -> [ByteString]
13:32:40 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Char8 inits :: ByteString -> [ByteString]
13:34:14 <CakeProphet> let palindromes alphabet = [0..] >>= (`replicateM` alphabet) >>= (\x y -> (x++y) : map ((x++).(:y)) alphabet) `ap` reverse in palidromes "ab"
13:34:17 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = [0..] >>= (`replicateM` alphabet) >>= (\x y -> (x++y) : map ((x++).(:y)) alphabet) `ap` reverse in palidromes "ab"
13:34:24 <CakeProphet> > let palindromes alphabet = [0..] >>= (`replicateM` alphabet) >>= (\x y -> (x++y) : map ((x++).(:y)) alphabet) `ap` reverse in palindromes "ab"
13:34:26 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","aa","aaa","aba","bb","bab","bbb","aaaa","aaaaa","aabaa","abba"...
13:34:33 <CakeProphet> just double-checking that the new version works.
13:36:22 <NihilistDandy> Sweet. Now if we could just find some suitably opaque combinators equivalent to some of that...
13:37:01 <CakeProphet> well it would be nice to somehow be able to have a map that also included an empty element of some kind, but I'm pretty sure that's not possible without using a lot of combinators.
13:37:10 <elliott> > let strings = ([0..] >>=) . flip replicateM; palindromes = alphabet >>= (\x y -> (x++y) : map ((x++).(:y)) alphabet) `ap` reverse in palindromes "ab"
13:37:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `alphabet'Not in scope: `alphabet'
13:37:21 <elliott> > let strings = ([0..] >>=) . flip replicateM; palindromes alphabet = strings alphabet >>= (\x y -> (x++y) : map ((x++).(:y)) alphabet) `ap` reverse in palindromes "ab"
13:37:23 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","aa","aaa","aba","bb","bab","bbb","aaaa","aaaaa","aabaa","abba"...
13:37:54 <CakeProphet> I'd mainly like to reduce the lambda somehow.
13:38:53 <CakeProphet> well, since I'm actually putting it in a file now I can define it as a function instead of using the lambda...
13:43:04 <Taneb> I didn't say that why did I say that
13:46:06 <fizzie> There used to be a thing that you could disconnect a percentage of dialup users with a "ping -p 2B2B2B415448300D0A" command.
13:46:40 <CakeProphet> somewhat improved: http://hpaste.org/49130
13:46:59 <CakeProphet> if I ever need to import Control.Applicative I'll change ap to <*>
13:47:38 <CakeProphet> though it's purely cosmetic, everything I'm doing is purely cosmetic.
13:49:22 <CakeProphet> there are probably many sets of interesting strings you could construct with the [0..] >>= (`replicateM` alphabet) thing.
13:51:57 <CakeProphet> Title: use do syntax for non monadic code http://hpaste.org/49108
13:55:18 <olsner> CakeProphet: it desugars into something that doesn't use any monad functions, so it ends up working
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13:58:15 <elliott> imo do should constrain the type...
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14:00:41 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Num.Num (m a), GHC.Num.Num (m b))
14:06:00 <ais523> does ABCD count as a stupid BF derivative? or is it worse than that?
14:06:05 <ais523> it's basically BF restricted to +-,.
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14:07:12 <CakeProphet> ais523: just a stupid BF derivative.. if that's literally what it is.
14:07:22 <ais523> CakeProphet: well, commands renamed as usual
14:07:46 <ais523> here you go: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ABCD
14:08:03 <CakeProphet> now if you could spawn threads of FSA that could communicate with each other...
14:09:22 <ais523> the page is vaguely obnoxious
14:09:29 <ais523> and was placed in a category specifically for the language, too
14:09:36 <ais523> I'm almost wondering if it's trolling
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14:14:38 <ais523> well, no almost about it
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14:34:22 <Taneb> Game cube Nintendo: cod net nine Buce mag?
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14:41:21 <olsner> Taneb: your palindrome makes no sense either forwards or backwards
14:41:43 <Taneb> I don't make sense
14:47:17 <CakeProphet> @pl let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in take 20 primes
14:47:18 <lambdabot> take 20 (fix ((`ap` tail) . (. head) . liftM2 (.) (:) . (. (filter . ((> 0) .) . flip mod)) . (.)) [2..])
14:47:53 <CakeProphet> I am always impressed with pl's sense of taste
14:48:20 <Taneb> You should see pl's living room
14:49:22 <CakeProphet> it is all very smooth surfaces, with no polka dot colors.
14:55:33 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in join (zipWith (!!)) primes
14:55:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
14:55:34 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Types...
14:56:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]' against inferred type `Int'
14:56:02 <lambdabot> Expected type: [[a]] -> [[a]] -> a1
14:56:02 <lambdabot> Inferred type: [[a]] -> [Int] -> [a]
14:56:48 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in zipWith (!!) primes primes
14:56:49 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral [a])
14:56:50 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `e_120' at...
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14:57:13 <lambdabot> forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
14:57:33 <CakeProphet> :t let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in primes
14:58:01 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in zipWith ((!!) `ap` fromIntegral) primes primes
14:58:02 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral [b -> c])
14:58:50 <lambdabot> forall b. (Integral [b]) => [b] -> b
14:59:40 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in map (primes!!) primes
14:59:42 <lambdabot> [5,7,13,19,37,43,61,71,89,113,131,163,181,193,223,251,281,293,337,359,373,4...
14:59:50 <CakeProphet> sometimes I wonder how I got so good at Haskell.
15:00:16 <CakeProphet> but yeah, those are the prime numbers that are indexed by a prime number
15:00:34 <CakeProphet> if I were a number theorist, I'd probably give them some kind of goofy name.
15:01:10 <CakeProphet> or name them after myself: CakeProphet numbers.
15:02:13 <Taneb> 7,13,37,61,131,181,281,337...
15:02:31 <CakeProphet> they have many interesting properties, such as being prime, and being nth prime numbers where n is a prime number.
15:03:34 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in map (primes!!) $ map (primes!!) primes
15:04:00 <CakeProphet> ...as you can see, finding the prime numbers indexed by CakeProphet numbers is somewhat time consuming.
15:04:09 <CakeProphet> but I will go ahead and name them rank-2 CakeProphet numbers.
15:04:31 <CakeProphet> because as a number theorist this is ultimately where I get my kicks.
15:04:52 <Taneb> <Taneb>7,13,37,61,131,181,281,337... <-- CakeProphet numbers indexed by Prime numbers
15:05:26 <Taneb> Can they be Taneb numbers?
15:06:11 <CakeProphet> One of the key challenges of number theory is finding unique names for numbers that exhibit arbitrary and interesting properties.
15:06:37 <CakeProphet> I have written many papers on the subject.
15:09:04 <CakeProphet> I will just say that I have an Erdős number of -1
15:09:44 <Taneb> http://oeis.org/A072677
15:10:22 <Taneb> That's the CakeProphet numbers
15:10:29 <Taneb> Also http://oeis.org/A117249
15:11:56 <Taneb> Because they were listed in 2002 and 2006
15:12:34 <CakeProphet> I will just have to reword the definition.
15:16:11 <CakeProphet> A prime number p is a CakeProphet number if the powerset of the set of prime numbers contains exactly 2^q-1 subsets where p is the maximal element, and q is prime.
15:16:53 <Taneb> https://oeis.org/login?redirect=/edit/new
15:18:40 <ais523> CakeProphet: is that powerset stuff a really complex way of saying "the qth largest prime number, where q is prime"?
15:19:09 <CakeProphet> I have no idea how you could infer such a thing.
15:19:24 <CakeProphet> I believe Luc Stephens already published such a thing
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15:22:13 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter (elem primes . (-1) . logBase 2 . length . filterM (const [True,False])) primes
15:22:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [[t]])
15:22:14 <lambdabot> arising from a use of syntactic nega...
15:22:43 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter (elem primes . subtract 1 . logBase 2 . length . filterM (const [True,False])) primes
15:22:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[t]]'
15:23:42 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter (elem primes . subtract 1 . logBase 2 . length . filterM (const [True,False]) . (primes!!)) primes
15:23:42 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[t]]'
15:24:43 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter (elem primes . subtract 1 . logBase 2 . length . filterM (const [True,False]) . (\x -> takeWhile (/=x))) primes
15:24:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[t]]'
15:25:19 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter (elem primes . subtract 1 . logBase 2 . length . filterM (const [True,False]) . (\x -> takeWhile (/=x) primes)) primes
15:25:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[t]]'
15:25:27 <CakeProphet> I should probably not try to program at this hour.
15:26:41 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter (elem primes . subtract 1 . logBase 2 . length . filterM (const [True,False])) (inits primes)
15:26:42 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[t]]'
15:31:49 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a]
15:32:16 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter (elem primes.subtract 1.logBase 2.length.filterM (const [True,False]))$inits primes
15:32:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[t]]'
15:33:37 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => a -> [a] -> Bool
15:33:55 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter ((`elem` primes).subtract 1.logBase 2.length.filterM (const [True,False]))$inits primes
15:33:56 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
15:35:13 <lambdabot> forall a. (Fractional a) => a -> a -> a
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15:36:35 <CakeProphet> wow it sure is incredibly stupid that logBase doesn't work with integral..
15:36:50 <lambdabot> forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a -> a
15:39:45 <lambdabot> Prelude ceiling :: (RealFrac a, Integral b) => a -> b
15:39:46 <lambdabot> Prelude floor :: (RealFrac a, Integral b) => a -> b
15:39:46 <lambdabot> Prelude round :: (RealFrac a, Integral b) => a -> b
15:40:43 <CakeProphet> > let primes = sieve [2..]; sieve (p:x) = p : sieve (filter ((>0).(`mod` p)) x) in filter ((`elem` primes).subtract 1.floor.logBase 2.(fromIntegral::Int->Float).length.filterM (const [True,False]))$inits primes
15:44:47 <CakeProphet> I've found myself using the monad instance of (e ->) much more now that I know how it works.
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15:46:14 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]
15:47:30 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: m = (->) (m a)
15:49:22 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
15:49:35 <CakeProphet> not sure about these operators. Haven't figured out when to use them.
15:51:30 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
15:51:45 <CakeProphet> lambdabot: where did you learn to lookup sources?
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15:57:44 <CakeProphet> liftM f m1 = do { x1 <- m1; return (f x1) }
16:00:00 <CakeProphet> foldM f a (x:xs) = f a x >>= \fax -> foldM f fax xs
16:00:11 <CakeProphet> or perhaps just completely arbitrary about its use...
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16:48:58 <oklopol> Sgeo: wrong answer. the correct answer is: if x is in the union, it is in one of the sets U_i by def of union. thus there's a ball around x completely inside U_i. but obviously the same ball is completely inside the union as well. so the union of open sets is open.
16:49:01 <Taneb> I don't want to take my sign into town because the weather looks... looming and my sign isn't waterproofed
16:49:48 <oklopol> as for intersection, consider U = U_1 \cap ... \cap U_k, let u \in U and let B_{r_i}(x) \subset U_i for all i. now just take the smallest of the r_i, and it will of course be contained in all the U_i, and thus their intersection.
16:50:07 <Taneb> And I've badly timed this
16:50:11 <Taneb> It's almost dinnertime
16:50:14 <oklopol> thus, a finite intersection of open sets is open
16:50:37 <Taneb> I'll do it tomorrow. Can't be bothered now
16:50:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, and you expected Sgeo, who is inexplicably frightened of maths, to answer?
16:50:53 <oklopol> he proved the trivial cases
16:51:03 <oklopol> then i left and apparently he didn't continue!
16:51:28 <oklopol> well, not that those two cases weren't trivial
16:54:26 <Sgeo> Sorry, watching Doctor Who
16:54:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Loading package OpenGL-2.2.3.0 ... linking ... <interactive>: /usr/local/lib/GeomAlgLib-0.2.0/ghc-7.0.2/HSGeomAlgLib-0.2.0.o: unknown symbol `__stginit_ghczm7zi0zi2_Maybes_'
16:55:15 <oklopol> doctor who. i saw part of one episode of that and it reminded me of buffy the vampire slayer.
16:55:36 <oklopol> so maybe i should watch it because buffy was an awesome show
16:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <oklopol> doctor who. i saw part of one episode of that and it reminded me of buffy the vampire slayer.
16:55:48 <HackEgo> 508) <oklopol> doctor who. i saw part of one episode of that and it reminded me of buffy the vampire slayer.
16:56:07 <Taneb> Christopher Eccleston was the best of New Who.
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17:23:20 <Taneb> I'm going to do something radical
17:24:14 <Taneb> Use this channel to make an esoteric programming language
17:25:30 <monqy> how would you use this channel to make an esoteric programming language
17:25:49 <Taneb> By throwing ideas at people
17:25:54 <Taneb> And seeing what bounces off
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17:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> What is this discrete math everybody keeps going on about.
17:28:37 <Taneb> It's very stealthy
17:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> You realise that discrete is spelt differently to discreet, right/
17:29:23 <Taneb> I wasn't letting that get in the way of a good pun
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17:31:48 <Taneb> Right, that esoteric programming language I was going to make...
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17:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> ...is not as important as helping me to get cglib to work.
17:32:26 <Taneb> I can't help you with that
17:32:45 <Taneb> Can anyone here help Phantom_Hoover get cglib to work?
17:34:34 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: there's no real definition, but if you want something other than a list of fields that are usually considered discrete, i can share my own heuristic: discrete math is stuff that starts with a finite set, non-discrete math starts with the reals.
17:35:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, but there are all these people talking about it as a school-level thing.
17:35:56 <Taneb> Are real numbers defined in school level?
17:37:30 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: discrete math is not really done that much in unis
17:38:01 <oklopol> but it has strong connections with analysis
17:38:21 <oklopol> so depends on your view really, the way i've done it and seen it done it's definitely discrete
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17:39:05 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: well afaiu people get serious boners having planar graphs w.r.t. different topological spaces and shit like this
17:39:38 <oklopol> i don't know much about it, but someone here once said graph theory is just algebraic topology
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17:41:44 <oklopol> and for instance symbolic dynamics, which is very discrete, is originally a tool for handling dynamical systems in general; dynamical system = topological space and a finite set of continuous functions on it (transformations say), mapping points around in some fun way, symbolic dynamics splits that space into a finite partition and considers the symbolic sequences obtained by taking one partition element and seeing on top of which partition elements it
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17:42:45 <oklopol> and the discrete branch symbolic dynamics has given linear algebra one rather big number theoretical type result, and linear algebra is the most important tool in symbolic dynamics; so again strong connections.
17:43:01 <oklopol> (linear algebra is not at all discrete, since it starts with the reals :-))
17:47:48 <oklopol> also graph theory has connections with linear algebra probably since symbolic dynamics mostly studies SFTs and sofic systems, which on the other hand are just sets of possible paths in a finite graph.
17:48:00 <oklopol> and i assume graph theory also cares about such paths
17:48:12 <oklopol> also you prolly ask different kinds of questions
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18:10:59 <Taneb> Gonna switch clients
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18:19:40 <Taneb> had Duck Madras for dinner
18:22:22 <oklopol> today i shall use the common kitchen.
18:22:56 <oklopol> i seriously hope no one comes there while i'm "cooking"
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18:32:12 <Taneb> No more double redirects!
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18:34:02 <Taneb> Incidentally, Numberwang is tied fourth page for most categories
18:39:39 <Sgeo> What does "12! 4.4! 92! 10! 49.8! 2! 2! 2!" do?
18:39:55 <monqy> depends on where it's used
18:40:08 <Taneb> When more than where
18:40:27 <Sgeo> Wait, wouldn't 12 just run 3 which runs that program...?
18:41:00 <Sgeo> " its position in the program, and the step number is calculated."
18:41:08 <monqy> speaking of numberwang categories, how is it self-modifying?
18:41:23 <Taneb> I thought it was when I made the page
18:41:32 <Taneb> Misunderstood, been meaning to remove that
18:42:21 <monqy> also for usability unknown, I'd say it's unusable for programming
18:43:25 <Taneb> It's actually quite easy to write a Hello World program
18:43:31 <Taneb> Just nobody's bothered
18:44:04 <Sgeo> Does a quine exist, or is that weird exception in play?
18:44:20 <Taneb> A quine probably exists
18:45:04 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, something about not being able to do arbitrary outputs at arbitrary points
18:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, are you confusing this with arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point?
18:46:40 <Taneb> I reckon the shortest possible quine in Numberwang, excluding the null program, would abuse the numberwang operation a lot
18:46:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if arbitrary ASCII output isn't allowed, then yes, a quine is impossible.
18:47:37 <Taneb> Output is bit-by-bit
18:48:01 <Sgeo> What if arbitrary ASCII output is possible, but requires something difficult, like brute-forcing a hash
18:48:20 * Sgeo wonders how that would work as a language
18:48:27 <Sgeo> Besides the boring trivial way
18:48:30 <Taneb> Make it and see, Sgeo
18:49:08 <Sgeo> Not boring way: Output commands are collected then hashed and the hash is displayed as output
18:49:38 <Sgeo> Wait, does every possible SHA-1 hash (or maybe MD5, not sure which to go with) have at least one corresponding input?
18:52:06 <Taneb> I honestly have no idea
18:53:22 <ais523> it's probably impossible to tell
18:53:30 <ais523> or as hard as reversing every hash
18:54:01 <Sgeo> BF derivates are boring, but I'm too uncreative to come up with another ... underlying structure for what is essentially only an idea for how to do output
18:54:30 <Sgeo> ais523, so, that would make it unknown whether a quine exists, or whether cat programs are possible.
18:54:39 <ais523> nowadays, I favour the idea of "incremented ASCII" for output, you output, say, 11 for newline or 33 for space
18:54:43 <ais523> because then you can have EOF=0 without a clash
18:55:13 <Sgeo> For output? Isn't input what that's more necessary for?
18:55:25 <ais523> but it should be symmetrical
18:57:48 <Sgeo> When I finish this Doctor Who series, I'll write up my BF derivative
18:57:58 <Sgeo> Although I do agree that BF derivatives suck
18:58:18 <Sgeo> I'm too boring for anything else .... ooh, hash-reversing-based computation too?
18:58:36 <Sgeo> So that whether it's TC or not is dependent on whether there's a reverse for every hash
18:58:58 <Sgeo> ...why do I have a feeling others have done this before, except with other "unknown" questions?
19:00:02 <monqy> oozlybub and murphy
19:01:40 <zzo38> Another way of EOF=0 without clash is if you have more than 8-bits numbers you can make it so that 256 means output 0 byte, 1 or 257 means output 1 byte, etc. It can be used for input, too. There might also be other possibilities.
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19:09:00 <Taneb> Writing a Hello World program in Numberwang
19:11:24 <oerjan> actually if you don't do any jumping you don't need to be that careful with phases, i think
19:12:00 <oerjan> but maybe you are using jumps
19:13:09 <oerjan> i'm just thinking that the beginning of the program is also the perfect spot to put a 3! command if you want to enter that easy row in my table
19:13:31 <oerjan> because then the step number will be 1 when entering the subprogram
19:14:07 <Taneb> Program starts with 3! now
19:14:17 <Taneb> And I've got moon chavs in my head
19:15:22 <Taneb> About a feature of the British population
19:15:27 <Taneb> The lowest of the low
19:17:31 <Taneb> And the safe numberwang flips the cell after where you start and the one after that
19:17:43 <Taneb> And ends up in the one after the one where you start
19:17:56 <Taneb> So if you begin with [0...]
19:18:14 <Taneb> You end up with [0,1,1] with the current cell as the first "1"
19:18:23 <oerjan> ...0..., iirc it's two-sided?
19:18:49 <Taneb> But you can ignore that
19:18:52 <oklopol> ...are you talking about bi-infinite sequences over a finite alphabet?
19:19:18 <oerjan> oklopol: over {0,1} yes, since that's what a numberwang tape is
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19:20:11 <Taneb> Imagine writing a quine in Numberwang
19:20:31 <oerjan> and the next command after the 3! will have the _same_ step number (mod 9), but of course incremented position
19:20:52 <oerjan> Taneb: heh, that should be possible
19:21:01 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i just expanded it into its little known second origin
19:22:10 <oerjan> well verbose, for sure
19:22:57 <Taneb> I think the shortest would use the numberwang operator in various imaginitive ways
19:24:05 <Taneb> ...This would be a lot easier if the Numberwang operator's program was 1 number shorter
19:24:28 <Taneb> I'm confusing myself
19:24:59 <oerjan> a _bit_ easier, since you could then put several 3!'s in a row, but you would have to get lucky with which bits you needed
19:26:09 <oerjan> since it's just 1 too long for that, you'll need some padding. oh hm.
19:26:36 <oerjan> 4 commands of padding, i think
19:26:51 <oerjan> which can be a nop if it fits
19:27:19 <Taneb> Hang on, wait a mo
19:27:38 <Taneb> The Numberwang sub-program has a length of 8
19:27:56 <Taneb> The corresponding commend has a length of 1
19:28:14 <Taneb> Which retains mod-nine-ness
19:28:15 <oerjan> yep, so the step number will be back to the same for the next main command
19:28:23 <oerjan> but the position will be incremented
19:29:15 <Taneb> "Hello, World!" actually starts 3! 2! 1!
19:29:51 <oerjan> and 4 padding commands will increment the sum of step and position by 8
19:30:20 <oerjan> getting back in phase for another 3!
19:32:49 <oerjan> Taneb: um with 3! 2! that 2! will enter the numberwang program again right, but not at the easy row i think...
19:33:34 <Taneb> It would, because the two will change the step counter from 9 to 10
19:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god he's going to god tier isn't he IT'S ALL TRUE
19:34:32 <oerjan> Taneb: but the position is 1 now...
19:34:52 <Taneb> Subprogram has its own position
19:36:44 <oerjan> hm that means that you need 9 commands of padding to get back to the right step number if you need to change the bit
19:38:09 <oerjan> ideally you'd want to set up the bits so that is rarely necessary
19:46:17 <Taneb> 3!2!1!0! handily outputs the first four bits
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19:51:19 <oerjan> <Taneb> Well, I'm not going to learn Haskell just yet <-- AAAAAAWWWWW
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19:52:43 <itidus20> i used to know a haskell coder on yahoo.. before i left yahoo
19:53:13 <oklopol> so recall yesterday or a year ago or whatever anyway i told ya i decided to eat my pizza and found that i had already eaten it.
19:54:18 <itidus20> i find that assumptions really come to life when it comes to "who did this?"
19:54:29 <itidus20> "I can't find it" "someone must have stolen it"
19:55:28 <oerjan> !haskell do let {x = 1}; x+2
19:55:55 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ do let {x = 1}; x+2
19:55:55 <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent
19:56:10 <itidus20> it's a difficult idea to break if you have it in your head
19:56:30 <oklopol> but if you don't deduce things and make associations, you are a stone
19:56:45 <oerjan> apparently they relaxed the typing of do expressions somewhere been EgoBot's and lambdabot's haskell versions
19:57:16 <itidus20> prescribing omnipotence to someone causes a lot of problems
19:57:24 <oerjan> presumably to make that rebindable syntax stuff work better
19:57:47 <itidus20> like, in other words, you can't model a human as a discrete system. maybe noone else does something that dumb
19:58:11 <monqy> 12:56:24 < itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent
19:58:37 <oerjan> > let a >>= f = f a + 1 in do x <- 3; 2*x
19:58:38 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Num.Num (m (m b)), GHC.Num.Num (m b))
19:58:39 <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception
19:58:43 <itidus20> there is no rule which applies to someone all of the time
19:58:51 <monqy> I'm human. all the time.
19:58:55 <oerjan> heh that was a bit too much to hope for
19:59:02 <monqy> how about tautologies
19:59:08 <itidus20> monqy, but what is a human ( :-s )
19:59:27 <monqy> I'm alive except when I'm not
19:59:30 <itidus20> a human is a stage in evolution
19:59:38 <monqy> this is a rule now I'm omnipotent
20:00:19 <itidus20> well you admit that to be alive has an excetion ^_^;;
20:00:21 <monqy> I really don't get how you jumped from "follows a rule precisely" to "must be omnipotent"
20:01:00 <itidus20> applying my no true scotsman logic.
20:01:43 <itidus20> assuming a human behaves according to a rule, without exception, is to assume they are omnipotent
20:02:09 <pikhq_> itidus20: This presumes that obeying the rule requires omnipotence.
20:02:22 <pikhq_> Not all rules possess that property.
20:02:24 <itidus20> to obey a rule without exception does
20:02:41 <itidus20> pikhq, ok now this is getting interesting
20:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, allow that collections of rules are themselves rules.
20:03:08 <pikhq_> What if the rule is "Think while conscious"?
20:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Furthermore, allow that the set of possible exceptions is finite.
20:03:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Following a rule allowing for exceptions is therefore itself a rule.
20:03:57 <Taneb> I thought obeying a rule without exception means your not omnipotent
20:04:12 <pikhq_> Taneb: Not if you are doing so willfully.
20:04:30 <pikhq_> Taneb: Then, you can be omnipotent but willfully not exploiting it.
20:05:05 <itidus20> ok, a good example might be to say of a fighter that he never loses
20:05:26 <itidus20> if he truely never lost then he would be omnipotent
20:05:38 <monqy> 1) and this accounts for every case?
20:05:41 <monqy> 2) no it doesn't mean that
20:06:01 <oklopol> so you mean rules of the form "can do x"
20:06:42 <itidus20> so you could try to fight him but be guaranteed to lose
20:07:38 <pikhq_> itidus20: Not rules are such that obedience requires omnipotence, however. Ergo, your claim is false. :)
20:07:51 <pikhq_> Actually, that doesn't even require omnipotence.
20:08:02 <pikhq_> Just that he be stronger than everything else that fights.
20:08:31 <Sgeo> Maybe itidus20 isn't using omnipotence to mean what we think of as "omnipotence"?
20:08:34 <itidus20> if i was better at logic i probably wouldn't need to argue about such a thing
20:08:54 <oklopol> logic certainly makes you happy
20:08:54 <pikhq_> In which case his argument fails for inattentive use of vocabulary. :)
20:10:11 <oklopol> thinking in general is the way to happiness. only someone who does not spend all day thinking about whether life has any kind of point can truly get depressed.
20:10:34 <itidus20> something starts the thinking off though
20:10:47 <itidus20> it's like a scab forming in response to an injury
20:10:58 <Sgeo> oklopol, what? Are you saying chemical imbalances cannot occur in phlosophers?
20:11:50 <oklopol> added the "whether life has any kind of point" just to make sure
20:12:37 <monqy> sgeo the famously bad at responding appropriately to sarcasm bisexual
20:13:16 <Sgeo> I still don't get where this "Sgeo is famously bisexual" meme is coming from
20:13:22 <Taneb> I read that as Sgeo is famously bad at responding to "the sarcasm bisexual"
20:13:30 <itidus20> theres a quote i saw on a forum signature once about some yeast talking to some vinegar(i forget exactly what?) blissfully unaware that they were in the process of becoming bread
20:13:30 <oerjan> <itidus20> if i was better at logic i probably wouldn't need to argue about such a thing <-- applying logic to omnipotence probably does not work very well. perhaps for similar reasons to russell's paradox.
20:13:32 <Taneb> I was wondering, who's the sarcasm bisexual?
20:13:44 <oklopol> '<Sgeo> I still don't get where this "Sgeo is famously bisexual" meme is coming from' <<< classic Sgeo :D
20:14:05 <Sgeo> There's non-classic Sgeo?
20:14:20 <Sgeo> ^^Let me guess, that's more classic Sgeo
20:14:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I assumed it was that crystal-cola troll, but then I looked at the logs and crystal-cola said that stuff in response to famous bisexuals.
20:14:42 <oklopol> there's a list of famous bisexuals on wp
20:15:20 <Sgeo> Hmm, it occurs to me that I know someone who's bisexual who co-authored a chapter of a textbook
20:16:09 <oklopol> Taneb: obviously it would've been me in this case, since Sgeo was responding badly to my sarcasm
20:16:12 <Taneb> Nor have I co-authored a chapter of a textbook
20:16:49 <ais523> I accused oklopol of being openly heterosexual once
20:17:19 <oklopol> i believe i have disclosed my sexuality
20:17:37 <oklopol> there's even a quote about it
20:18:16 <oklopol> i guess for all intents and purposes i'm straight tho
20:19:01 <zzo38> For all intents and purposes **it usually doesn't matter** (I think)
20:19:32 <oklopol> obviously i mean intents and purposes where it does matter
20:19:35 <Taneb> Except for the purpose/intent of matchmaking
20:20:11 <Taneb> Willing sexmaking, in anycase
20:20:18 <zzo38> Yes, for those purposes it would matter.
20:20:53 <zzo38> But it doesn't matter for purpose of co-authoring a textbook.
20:21:37 <Sgeo> Unless the textbook involves personal sexual experiences. Which would be a really weird textbook.
20:21:51 <oklopol> haha this bubbly water thingie has added calcium and it says "scientifically proven to be a good source of calcium" on the bottle
20:22:30 <oklopol> i wonder if they actually made scientists test the added calcium was actually in there after the fact just to be able to add that :D
20:22:54 <Taneb> It's things like that why people don't trust science
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20:24:26 <Taneb> You know what would be interesting?
20:24:39 <oklopol> what would be interesting?
20:24:40 <Taneb> A BCT interpreter in Dwarf Fortress
20:25:08 <zzo38> My DVI optimizer program works! Tell me if you have other suggestions related to such program.
20:26:13 <zzo38> Device Independent format
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20:26:55 <pikhq> I think it's only really used as an intermediate form for TeX.
20:26:59 <oklopol> the most reliable latex output format on my system atm
20:27:18 <pikhq> To be fair, it *was* invented in the nasty old days before Postscript.
20:27:20 <zzo38> pikhq: It can be; the final format would be the printer's native format, such as PCL or whatever.
20:27:36 <oklopol> something wrong with pdf output and my ps viewer is horrible
20:27:38 <zzo38> PostScript and PDF is full of dumb things.
20:27:48 <pikhq> zzo38: The point is that the only things that really output it are TeX.
20:27:59 <zzo38> No, I make other programs that produce DVI files too.
20:28:06 <zzo38> And even groff can do so, I think.
20:28:24 <oklopol> why would anyone use anything other than tex/latex when you can use tex/latex
20:28:25 <zzo38> If I make any program for printing, DVI format is the format I use.
20:28:38 <pikhq> I find it very easy to forget that roff is used for anything but man pages. :)
20:29:12 <zzo38> oklopol: TeX is very good but sometimes you would need different kind of program for printing.
20:29:13 <oerjan> oklopol: because it's evil open sourcery. regards, microsoft.
20:32:55 <zzo38> Various things, including music, ANYTODVI, things not supported by TeX, and sometimes it is useful to just write a C program that directly produces print output. You might also convert other formats in some cases (not scanned documents though; I believe that is what DjVu is for).
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20:33:27 <oklofok> <oklopol> zzo38: like what?
20:33:51 <ais523> oklofok: <zzo38> Various things, including music, ANYTODVI, things not supported by TeX, and sometimes it is useful to just write a C program that directly produces print output. You might also convert other formats in some cases (not scanned documents though; I believe that is what DjVu is for).
20:34:35 <zzo38> The server didn't recognize the disconnection
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20:37:33 <zzo38> Cases that you might write other programs converting some format directly to DVI, such as ESC/P.
20:38:10 <zzo38> A few other people I have talked to agree that PostScript and PDF are full of dumb things, although one person preferred PCL.
20:40:10 <oklofok> well i don't really care, they all look the same on paper
20:40:24 <oklofok> and compilation time is roughly the same
20:42:01 <zzo38> Of course you can use what you want, and you can publish the book. However, PostScript and PDF can sometimes produce fuzzy output on paper (I have experienced this).
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20:45:23 <zzo38> Of course they are all being converted to PCL, although the resulting PCL data can become different.
20:45:42 <oklofok> what do you mean being converted
20:46:36 <zzo38> I mean, you convert DVI or PostScript or PDF or whatever into PCL so that the printer can accept it.
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21:04:18 <Taneb> Goodnight everyone
21:04:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: being forced to go to bed).
21:14:44 <Sgeo> Ok, one of the people in #jesus just called himself a prophet
21:15:33 <Sgeo> <> its my responsibility as a prophet to tell you what God wants me to
21:15:34 <Sgeo> <> rather then what you want to hear
21:15:47 <Sgeo> (name deleted due to this being a publically logged channel)
21:17:32 <olsner> Sgeo: is that sort of thing unusual for #jesus?
21:19:11 <ais523> there's one particular corner in Birmingham City Centre which is good for finding evangelists
21:19:27 <ais523> usually Christian; they're ranting too much to figure out the specific sort of Christianity they believe in
21:20:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god apparently the Catholic church is the New World Order I love this channel.
21:20:46 -!- elliott has joined.
21:25:01 <NihilistDandy> Did you show him Gödel's ontological proof and tell him why modal logic is bad?
21:25:03 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: bedtime).
21:27:40 <elliott> 16:54:52: <Phantom_Hoover> Loading package OpenGL-2.2.3.0 ... linking ... <interactive>: /usr/local/lib/GeomAlgLib-0.2.0/ghc-7.0.2/HSGeomAlgLib-0.2.0.o: unknown symbol `__stginit_ghczm7zi0zi2_Maybes_'
21:27:40 <elliott> 16:55:00: <Phantom_Hoover> What does that even mean??
21:27:40 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:27:44 <elliott> it means you have problems beyond you
21:28:33 <elliott> 16:56:07: <Taneb> Christopher Eccleston was the best of New Who.
21:28:33 <elliott> Man okay I love Eccleston and people who don't love Eccleston are bad but are you really saying he's better than Tennant.
21:29:31 <NihilistDandy> He just doesn't quite have the wrath down like Tennant did
21:29:45 <Sgeo> I've only seen two episodes of Eccleston, is that why I think he might not be the best?
21:29:49 <ais523> I don't like recent Doctor Who at all
21:29:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The Catholic Church the *new* world order?
21:30:08 <itidus20> theres a dr who anime thing that someone made
21:30:10 <pikhq> Not the "Older than dirt world order"?
21:30:11 <ais523> elliott: since and including Eccleston, i.e. after the really long hiatus
21:30:18 <elliott> itidus20: i watched that, it was really really bad
21:30:41 <pikhq> That phrase, incidentally, is retarded.
21:30:53 <elliott> ais523: Ever seen Blink? Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead? (OK yes River Song is in it but it was before she was an insufferable plot element.)
21:31:02 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: Yes.
21:31:06 <itidus20> elliot: if it was crap it's due to the style rather than the quality
21:31:08 <pikhq> NOVVS ORDO SECLORVM is "New Order of the Ages", people.
21:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, here, have the truth: http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/48146280?access_key=key-191mra1tp1fxslz2rem8
21:31:10 <ais523> elliott: I don't think I've seen any of those
21:31:17 <ais523> I stopped watching it for religious reasons after a bit
21:31:21 <ais523> which is strange as I'm not religious
21:31:42 <elliott> ais523: You should; I don't know of anyone who thinks they aren't awesome, even non-Doctor Who-likers
21:31:51 <NihilistDandy> Though the Angels stop being scary after the first episode.
21:32:32 <elliott> NihilistDandy: yeah, but it took years for Moffat to ruin that.
21:32:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh God the derp.
21:32:57 <NihilistDandy> I do think that Amy is my favorite companion so far, though
21:33:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I really, really want to find whoever paired her off with Mickey and kick them until they say sorry.
21:33:54 <elliott> I like all the companions, does that make me bad? Well, Rose was a bit annoying, but not THAT annoying.
21:34:12 <NihilistDandy> I can't put my finger on what put me off about Martha, so it's probably latent racism.~
21:34:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wow, wait, that was a thing that happened? Like Rose Mickey?
21:34:37 <NihilistDandy> Or it could just be her accent and that I found her uninteresting until the last few episodes
21:34:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's because of that Associates of Doctor Who Social Club.
21:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> But what makes me *angry* about it is that she was already engaged when we last saw her.
21:35:15 <elliott> But that would involve hiring a new actor.
21:35:36 <elliott> `addquote <NihilistDandy> MY CONTINUITY <NihilistDandy> MY FANFICTION <NihilistDandy> RUINED
21:35:38 <HackEgo> 509) <NihilistDandy> MY CONTINUITY <NihilistDandy> MY FANFICTION <NihilistDandy> RUINED
21:36:12 <oerjan> <elliott> 16:54:52: <Phantom_Hoover> [...] unknown symbol `__stginit_ghczm7zi0zi2_Maybes_' <-- stginit stuff is part of the ghc runtime system, i think. maybe something has not been linked properly, or there is version incompatibility?
21:36:23 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, like I said: problems beyond your reach
21:36:30 <elliott> Reinstall GHC, compile everything again, hope it doesn't break
21:36:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the fact that they cared about her character so little that they completely ignored the development that had been set up.
21:36:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Theory: It was a different Martha.
21:37:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Was The End of Time really really awesome, or am I just imagining that memory?
21:37:31 <elliott> OK but now back to the on-topic activity of logreading.
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21:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It was pretty terrible from a characterisation and plot standpoint, but from a "stuff blows up" standpoint it was pretty good.
21:38:48 <elliott> 18:48:01: <Sgeo> What if arbitrary ASCII output is possible, but requires something difficult, like brute-forcing a hash
21:38:49 <elliott> You can't brute-force a hash, not really
21:38:59 <elliott> I mean, as an output mechanism that doesn't work, at least any way I can think of
21:39:08 <elliott> Because every hash has aleph-null strings
21:39:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I really liked Human Nature/The Family of Blood, but I can't see anyone else who did.
21:39:23 <olsner> hmm, I seem to have missed the End of Time
21:40:46 <elliott> 18:49:38: <Sgeo> Wait, does every possible SHA-1 hash (or maybe MD5, not sure which to go with) have at least one corresponding input?
21:40:58 <elliott> sounds like an insanely difficult thing to prove, too
21:41:04 <elliott> 18:53:22: <ais523> it's probably impossible to tell
21:41:05 <elliott> 18:53:30: <ais523> or as hard as reversing every hash
21:41:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> 18:48:01: <Sgeo> What if arbitrary ASCII output is possible, but requires something difficult, like brute-forcing a hash
21:41:15 <elliott> ais523: come now, this is mathematics, you can prove theorems in ways other than brute froce.
21:41:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I think he just means that the output instruction outputs a hash.
21:41:31 <ais523> elliott: indeed; it's just that hashes are designed specifically to try to stop people proving things about them
21:41:43 <elliott> 18:54:39: <ais523> nowadays, I favour the idea of "incremented ASCII" for output, you output, say, 11 for newline or 33 for space
21:41:43 <elliott> 18:54:43: <ais523> because then you can have EOF=0 without a clash
21:41:43 <elliott> 18:55:21: <ais523> well, yes
21:41:43 <elliott> 18:55:25: <ais523> but it should be symmetrical
21:41:48 <elliott> ais523: outputting 0 should close stdout :)
21:41:54 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you want to output x, you need to work out y such that hash(y) = x.
21:45:20 <elliott> ais523: are true and false one and zero in underlambda?
21:45:33 <ais523> well, the Church numerals for those
21:45:57 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes, output instruction ouutputitng a hash is what I'm thinking of
21:46:06 <Sgeo> Or at least, fits what I want, and I did think of
21:46:09 <elliott> ais523: how easy is it to write the function "0 ==> 0; x > 0 ==> 1" where x is guaranteed to be a church numeral?
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21:46:35 <elliott> Sgeo: can't output strings whose length is not a certain multiple
21:46:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: in underlambda
21:47:04 <elliott> Sgeo: you could omit trailing zeroes from the output but then you couldn't end output with zeroes
21:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS Haskell, why do you need to make it so hard to extract items from a tuple.
21:48:01 <lambdabot> Data.Typeable typeOf3 :: Typeable3 t => t a b c -> TypeRep
21:48:02 <lambdabot> Data.Typeable typeOf2Default :: (Typeable3 t, Typeable a) => t a b c -> TypeRep
21:48:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't use three-tuples.
21:48:12 <elliott> And also, use pattern matching.
21:48:24 <monqy> use template haskell
21:48:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Show your code.
21:48:25 <olsner> haskell only supports tuples up to the size of 2
21:48:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Show your code.Phantom_Hoover: Show your code.
21:48:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Show your code.Phantom_Hoover: Show your code.Phantom_Hoover: Show your code.
21:48:44 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to bob_loblaw.
21:48:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your code.
21:48:55 <Sgeo> elliott, easy to work around
21:48:57 <elliott> The code you are trying to extract.
21:49:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then why are you complaining about a function being missing?
21:49:47 <Sgeo> Make last byte indicate .. no, make first byte indicate... hm
21:49:50 <elliott> Are you trying to use it imaginarily?
21:50:05 <elliott> Sgeo: make the first byte indicate how many bytes of the rest of the hash to output minus one
21:50:09 <elliott> (so that 0 prints one byte)
21:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to work out how this library's data structures work.
21:50:18 <elliott> Sgeo: assuming hashes are less than two hundred something bytes that should work fine
21:50:24 -!- bob_loblaw has changed nick to copumpkin.
21:50:39 <elliott> Sgeo: if it specifies a length longer than the hash, either: - cut out the rest; - make that invalid; - or fix the hash length so that it's exactly two hundred and fifty six bytes long
21:50:54 <elliott> `addquote <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception
21:50:56 <HackEgo> 510) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception
21:51:17 <monqy> you got to that bit?
21:52:03 <olsner> oh, was there a good bit? I haven't been following #esoteric today
21:52:22 <oklofok> olsner: we were comparing penis lengths and shit as usual
21:52:39 <itidus20> ok heres a useful example of what i had in mind
21:53:03 <itidus20> "Any monitor made by ???? company will be reliable."
21:53:24 <oklofok> didn't you already explain by a rule you meant a capability to solve certain kinds of problems
21:53:33 <elliott> itidus20: do you mean omniscient, not omnipotent?
21:53:57 <Sgeo> elliott, I like River Song
21:54:43 <itidus20> I mean that seeing reality as rules _without having a capacity to be flexible on those rules_ leads to abundant errors assumptions and misconceptions.
21:55:17 <monqy> itidus20: i.e. omnipotence?
21:56:25 <itidus20> someone showed me an image before which brings a great example to mind
21:56:31 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: You just need more precisely defined rules :D
21:56:33 <monqy> itidus20: what about when those rules are provably correct?
21:56:40 <elliott> 20:11:20: <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's incredibly obvious sarcasm.
21:56:40 <elliott> 20:11:30: <oklopol> i hoped it was
21:56:40 <elliott> 20:11:50: <oklopol> added the "whether life has any kind of point" just to make sure
21:56:40 <elliott> 20:12:28: <oklopol> i forgive you
21:56:49 <itidus20> "The Titanic is unsinkable." "I believe you bro."
21:56:54 <elliott> itidus20: "All integers are either negative or positive."
21:56:59 <elliott> itidus20: are the integers omnipotent
21:57:00 <monqy> "the titanic is sinkable" "oh man omnipotence"
21:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> .......................................................................................................
21:57:24 <elliott> monqy: he's saying that the only way for the titanic to be not-sunk in all possible universes is for the titanic to be able to meld reality itself so that this does not happen
21:57:37 <elliott> monqy: which is sort of reasonable enough, in that it basically has to override physics
21:57:50 <elliott> monqy: and the only way to do that without contradicting the laws of physics is to stop all world-states where it sinks from happening
21:57:53 <elliott> i.e. be "omnipotent" in a sense
21:58:06 <elliott> it clearly doesn't apply to tautological statements, i.e. anything mathematical.
21:58:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's a tautology
21:58:19 <oklofok> meld? now you're just making up words.
21:58:29 <NihilistDandy> By contrast, I can say with mathematical certitude that there exists at least one possible universe where the Titanic sank
21:58:34 <elliott> it's true that non-tautological statements (i.e. statements that can be false in a possible world) cannot be guaranteed to be true without some sort of filtering of states being done
21:58:51 <elliott> i guess it's not really clear how omnipotence comes in because like
21:59:01 <elliott> there is only one world that actually happens, and infinite possible worlds
21:59:06 <elliott> and you can't change the possible worlds
21:59:13 <elliott> so i dunno, i guess it just gives you great luck
21:59:18 <elliott> the integers aren't omnipotent
21:59:39 <oklofok> that's an excellent point to make.
21:59:45 <NihilistDandy> Though that'd make a great next step in the vein of Flat(ter)land
21:59:52 <itidus20> I don't want to rush things too much, but my intended focus was that qualities other than unsinkability can be applied to humans and their behavior.
22:00:04 <elliott> i'm sure we can all agree on that.
22:00:13 <elliott> there's a lot of "the integers are god" type sentiment
22:00:27 <elliott> but then so is the set {{}}, because all of its elements are {} :/
22:00:29 <zzo38> Or else "the natural numbers are god" if you prefer that.
22:00:36 <elliott> all mathematical objects are omnipotent
22:00:39 <elliott> i like this itidus20 i like it
22:00:55 <elliott> 20:14:27: <Phantom_Hoover> I assumed it was that crystal-cola troll, but then I looked at the logs and crystal-cola said that stuff in response to famous bisexuals.
22:01:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Come on, you don't have to belittle fax by pretending you don't know who e is.
22:01:10 <NihilistDandy> Let's go tell #math that we've proved the existence of god
22:01:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:01:43 <elliott> I don't think fax is even intentionally a troll, e's just... really bad at this social interaction stuff.
22:01:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:02:01 * itidus20 is glad that something he said meant something to someone else.
22:02:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A daring one who would be sure of fax's gender after all this time :-P
22:02:25 <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
22:02:33 <elliott> It was just... really bad and obvious trolling.
22:02:38 <elliott> `addquote <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
22:02:39 <HackEgo> 511) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
22:03:36 <elliott> 20:21:37: <Sgeo> Unless the textbook involves personal sexual experiences. Which would be a really weird textbook.
22:03:41 <elliott> the sgeo guide to calculus
22:04:22 <itidus20> does any point conform to a line?
22:05:01 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: how easy is it to write the function "0 ==> 0; x > 0 ==> 1" where x is guaranteed to be a church numeral? <-- it's easy enough in underload at least. lessee, (!())~^(!())~^ i think
22:05:23 <itidus20> well, i think its useful to think of a rule as a line
22:05:27 <elliott> oerjan: yes but underlambda has all these fancy things :D
22:05:33 <ais523> elliott: it's very easy, you basically, just do (0 to the power of (0 to the power of n))
22:05:37 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, on the relevancy or lack thereof of sexual orientation in writing textbooks
22:05:38 <ais523> which is what oerjan's code above does
22:05:59 <ais523> and 0 to the n is generally useful enough that it'll be a single character in Underlambda
22:05:59 <itidus20> an object cannot stay on a line forever
22:06:06 <ais523> itidus20: what if it's a point?
22:06:07 <elliott> ais523: fair enough; I think your incremented IO formulation is better if you say "false" than 0; it seems less arbitrary
22:06:12 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: Homosexuals are better at computer science, heterosexuals are better at analysis?
22:06:12 <elliott> although fails to explain why you need to increment, I suppose
22:06:17 <ais523> elliott: but then you have more than one type of true
22:06:21 <elliott> ais523: I was just wondering how easy it was to write a "if non-zero" in Underlambda
22:06:26 <oklofok> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklofok was writing a textbook, wasn't he." <<< xD
22:06:26 <itidus20> I should very carefully state that my math is the lowest in the room.
22:06:32 <elliott> Fails on non-Smith numerals right?
22:06:39 <elliott> itidus20: but Sgeo is in here?
22:06:45 <oklofok> i write math in a pretty boring way usually actually
22:06:48 <Sgeo> elliott, is my math really that bad?
22:06:52 <elliott> ais523: Underload numerals aren't Church numerals, they would need an extra caret after it
22:06:57 <elliott> Sgeo: no, i'm just being snarky :)
22:06:58 <itidus20> elliot: I'm serious.. I am not a math guy
22:06:58 <oklofok> you don't need to spice it up
22:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> You're actually *scared* of it, rather than incompetent.
22:07:17 <elliott> ais523: So I gave oerjan the task of renaming them and now you have an eponymous numeral representation :-P
22:07:20 <itidus20> ais523: perhaps no object is a point
22:07:40 <elliott> But yeah, I think that only works on Smith numerals, which is fine ofc when you're dealing with streams
22:07:54 * Sgeo doesn't want to think of himself as scared of math
22:07:55 <elliott> ais523: hmm, it would be nice if you could generalise "incrementing" to arbitrary quotations... feels gross to have all streams forced to use integers
22:07:57 <itidus20> 3 objects will eventually lose synch from a line
22:08:01 <ais523> elliott: what else would you want it to work on?
22:08:01 <Sgeo> I consider myself to like math :(
22:08:02 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover, itidus20: but then they'd be omnipotent
22:08:05 <ais523> you can't do it on arbitrary functions
22:08:12 <ais523> without being able to solve the halting problem
22:08:14 <elliott> ais523: so you could map a stream of (x :: X)s to false and f(x) for some f
22:08:30 <elliott> ais523: just wrap the quotation somehow
22:08:36 <elliott> in a way that makes it distinguishable from 0
22:08:41 <itidus20> no 3 objects in the universe will stay in line forever (but this is just using the impermenance rule :-s )
22:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> You've repeatedly said you don't like formal science because of the maths.
22:08:55 <ais523> elliott: you mean boxing objects into a standard form and tagging them to say what they are?
22:08:59 <ais523> but that's what Feather does
22:09:06 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: Not that I would call a lot of what the formal sciences do "math" :D
22:09:10 <itidus20> buddha gotama's rule that everything comes to an end
22:09:20 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: But at least they beat the social sciences
22:09:22 <elliott> ais523: I'm just saying that anything that can only handle integers sucks :P
22:09:26 <ais523> and is overcomplicated for Underlambda
22:09:28 <itidus20> then again my mentor told me buddha wasn't that great at math
22:09:32 <ais523> you could make it handle, say, strings too
22:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> NihilistDandy, physics is completely mathematically modelled.
22:09:46 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Now now, Phantom_Hoover's literal hate of anyone who does a soft science is bad enough.
22:09:49 <oerjan> <NihilistDandy> By contrast, I can say with mathematical certitude that there exists at least one possible universe where the Titanic sank <-- rubbish, it was a coverup and it was really abducted by aliens
22:09:51 <ais523> has itidus20 misinterpreted what the channel's about?
22:09:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> NihilistDandy: Now now, Phantom_Hoover's literal hate of anyone who does a soft science is bad enough.
22:09:54 <Sgeo> I don't think I like my math getting mixed up with practicality. Also, I need paper or a paper like thing, it's been a while
22:10:10 <itidus20> I thought it was about esoteric programming languages.
22:10:32 <elliott> Phantom "Kate Beaton is literally the only humanities major I respect" Hoover
22:10:36 <oklofok> "<Sgeo> I don't think I like my math getting mixed up with practicality." <<< seconded
22:11:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Define:sarcasm on my original statement
22:11:18 <oerjan> <elliott> there's a lot of "the integers are god" type sentiment <-- a kroneckal mistake
22:11:49 <elliott> NihilistDandy isn't used to oerjan's puns by now? :D
22:11:57 <itidus20> it said that math mixed with practicality is not popular
22:12:10 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Usually I am, but sometimes... sometimes I get blindsided
22:12:16 <monqy> it's popular amongst bad people
22:13:14 <itidus20> So, my mom believes that the brand-name of a food in a supermarket tells her information about the food. It is something I have to slowly educate her about
22:13:26 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: Math is about pi and the Fibonacci sequence, obviously. The way people go on about differentiable manifolds and assembly maps, you'd think they were somehow conceptally different from those foundations.
22:13:57 <ais523> itidus20: oh dear, you might be in a competition with Sgeo for misinformed parents there
22:14:08 <ais523> but at least your response to the situation is a sane one
22:14:14 <elliott> itidus20: like what information
22:14:22 <oerjan> <elliott> the sgeo guide to calculus <-- you've never seen curves so smooth
22:14:31 <ais523> NihilistDandy: I don't know, my mind blotted it out to save me from the stupid
22:14:37 <ais523> I'm sure other people here can remember, though
22:14:37 <itidus20> that the brandnamed one is inherently superior
22:15:05 <pikhq> Probably the stupidest bit is that he's studying at a school without a CS program.
22:15:12 <pikhq> At his father's suggestion.
22:15:17 <itidus20> She also believes things that are written on the packaging like fat-free.. or approved by such and such a foundation
22:15:37 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: He's getting some sort of IT degree.
22:15:48 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, well only indirectly, and not someone here
22:15:50 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: Which requires more *business* classes than math.
22:15:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ais523 hides his scheming plots behind a veneer of objectivity.
22:15:56 <elliott> RUN WHILE YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE
22:16:06 <NihilistDandy> pikhq: I used to be in that situation. My mother thought I was doing CS. I had to explain to her that she was wrong and possibly broken
22:16:12 <ais523> can't I be objective /and/ insult people?
22:16:15 <oklofok> ais has also taken a lot of business stuff
22:16:25 <itidus20> My dad used to explain that the company gets paid a fortune to put their foundation's logo on the food and that, foods without the logo could potentially pass the standards to have the logo.
22:16:30 <ais523> oklofok: I'm having trouble parsing your sentence
22:16:32 <elliott> NihilistDandy: "wrong and possibly broken" X-D
22:16:34 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: Information Security and Forensics, they called it
22:16:37 <pikhq> oklofok: Calc I is the highest math class he is required to take.
22:16:42 <ais523> or at least, resolving the words in it into possible meanings for those words
22:17:04 <pikhq> He could fulfill the programming requirements with Visual Basic.
22:17:07 <NihilistDandy> It was at RIT, though, so it's not like it was some nonsense program
22:17:59 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: So I gave oerjan the task of renaming them and now you have an eponymous numeral representation :-P <-- wait i recall there was a discussion, but i don't recall that i was the one who suggested naming them after ais523
22:18:23 <elliott> oerjan: you did, after the
22:18:26 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: Now I'm doing CS and pure math at UVM. Much happier :)
22:19:14 <ais523> itidus20: I can believe that
22:19:25 <oerjan> itidus20: that any two points lie on a unique common line is one of the famous ancient greek axioms of geometry. or was that postulate.
22:19:41 <ais523> in electronics, multimetres cost about ten times as much if they've actually been measured to make sure they measure correctly
22:19:47 <ais523> even though it's the same both way s round
22:19:49 <NihilistDandy> elliott: My mother thought (until I corrected her) that "computer science" was what gave me insight in to how to fix her computer problems
22:20:07 <elliott> NihilistDandy: I would like to say that "computing theorist" would solve this problem, but it probably wouldn't :P
22:20:20 <ais523> NihilistDandy: my mother came to me in a panic today, because she'd tried to turn a computer off and put it into standby instead, and in the meantime removed a USB stick containing a document she was editing
22:20:43 <elliott> I will never cease to be amazed at how much distress computers can cause unsavvy people
22:20:58 <elliott> I wonder if we could sue major software manufacturers for the grief? :P
22:21:03 <NihilistDandy> I will never cease to be amazed how much distress they cause the savviest people
22:21:10 <ais523> and was then terrified at the save-as dialog
22:21:19 <ais523> when we told her that was probably the best option
22:21:38 <oklofok> "<ais523> oklofok: I'm having trouble parsing your sentence" <<< you, as well, have taken many business type of thing classes.
22:21:48 <NihilistDandy> ais523: Your mother is the most adorably strange woman I've ever heard of
22:21:53 <ais523> two a year for four years, and that was far too many
22:22:03 <elliott> NihilistDandy: sounds like a normal non-savvy person to me
22:22:03 <ais523> NihilistDandy: not really, most computer users are much worse
22:22:12 <ais523> you can cause complete havoc by rearranging icons on most people's desktops
22:22:16 <elliott> Windows power users, as insane as some of the things they do are, do seem to be rather happy with computers
22:22:19 <ais523> (where by most, I just mean >50%, not ~99%)
22:22:20 <elliott> Mostly because they're sure of everything
22:22:44 <ais523> elliott: it was such a relief to me when I moved to Linux and no longer had to understand Windows
22:22:55 <ais523> it's a moving target, even though I understood it once I no longer do
22:22:55 <NihilistDandy> I just make sure I can do everything I need to do daily on the big three platforms, and that I know some neat tricks for certain things on each one
22:23:02 <elliott> I know that computers cause me a lot of grief :/
22:23:03 <ais523> (I used to write Win16 software for fun)
22:23:09 <elliott> Sometimes I wonder if it's worth it
22:23:14 <elliott> Probably not, but it's what I'm good at
22:23:41 <ais523> elliott: how long did it take you to work out what File | Save As did?
22:23:49 <ais523> I know I didn't work it out immediately, although it was quite fast
22:23:52 <olsner> is there any way we can use our computer-related skills without actual computers?
22:24:04 <elliott> ais523: I don't have any recollection of doing so; I started using Windows when I was three years old
22:24:09 <ais523> olsner: programming skill works offline
22:24:17 <elliott> ais523: I have no idea how I learned to type, either
22:24:29 <ais523> elliott: heh, I was taught to type formally
22:24:32 <elliott> I have a suspicious feeling that it may be almost as ingrained as my knowledge of English
22:24:36 <NihilistDandy> Sometimes I think I should hang up my null pointers and start a farm in Nebraska. Then I remember that the horror of being constantly surrounded by sunlight and shit is what got me into computer science in the first place and, well...
22:24:39 <ais523> then ignored all that and taught myself how to do it without jamming fingers on the home row
22:24:45 <elliott> I'm still really slow at using most GUIs though :/
22:24:54 <elliott> Well, not really, but quite
22:25:09 <elliott> I see a lot of videos where people move the mouse at record speed clicking menus and the like without even pausing
22:25:32 <ais523> elliott: I used to be able to do that, with an actual physical mouse
22:26:43 <olsner> hmm, I think I must've learned about "save as" in text mode guis, e.g. quickbasic
22:26:50 <NihilistDandy> My first computer was an Apple, of some sort. Back when things were still really NeXTSteppy
22:26:56 <olsner> which was before learning about english, of course
22:27:36 <ais523> olsner: at least English isn't your native language
22:27:51 <oklofok> does anyone else read "with an actual physical mouse" as "an actual live mouse"
22:28:07 <ais523> I used to be really good at using MouseKeys
22:28:14 <ais523> but this laptop now has a touchpad, so I use that instead
22:28:27 <ais523> (the previous one did in theory but it didn't work; at least, it worked for about ten seconds once, but it mostly didn't work)
22:28:58 <NihilistDandy> Being "good with MouseKeys" sounds like a contradiction in terms
22:29:35 <ais523> NihilistDandy: sometimes you badly need a mouse, though
22:29:46 <ais523> ooh, I actually completed one level of Adanaxis (the one after the tutorial) with the touchpad
22:29:51 <ais523> but wow, was that painful
22:30:07 <ais523> not a stunt-run I'd recommend
22:30:12 <oerjan> <ais523> in electronics, multimetres cost about ten times as much if they've actually been measured to make sure they measure correctly <-- does that mean it's cheaper to buy 9 and measure them yourself?
22:30:20 <ais523> oerjan: probably 1 and measure it yourself
22:30:27 <ais523> the problem is that the measuring equipment is pretty expensive
22:30:45 <ais523> I suppose you could buy three and take the majority opinion
22:37:35 <oerjan> ...and the moment i finish reading scrollback, everyone has stopped talking
22:37:54 <ais523> I have been talking, but in #nethack because I'm in a nethack tournament
22:38:27 <elliott> oerjan: just logread scrollback
22:38:30 <elliott> then i'll logread your logreading
22:38:46 <olsner> sounds like some kind of correspondence IRC
22:39:13 <elliott> String[] ConfigArray = new String[21];
22:39:22 <elliott> can't get over how bad this plugin's configuration system is
22:41:36 <elliott> ConfigArray[0] = simplesaveproperties.getProperty("save.use");
22:41:37 <elliott> ConfigArray[1] = simplesaveproperties.getProperty("save.interval");
22:41:37 <elliott> ConfigArray[2] = simplesaveproperties
22:41:37 <elliott> .getProperty("save.message.starting");
22:41:49 <elliott> it's faster than a hashtable lookup!
22:41:54 <ais523> elliott: is getProperty using reflection, there?
22:41:59 <ais523> and that basically is a hash table
22:42:01 <elliott> ais523: no, it's just reading from a .properties file
22:42:02 <ais523> with a very specific hash function
22:42:20 <elliott> pro of bukkit plugins being so easy to write: I can look at most plugins and think "yup, I could write that in a day or two"
22:42:31 <elliott> con of bukkit plugins being so easy to write: people like this can write plugins
22:42:40 <elliott> and then i have to try and make their plugins work
22:42:49 <ais523> elliott: or just write it yourself in a day or two?
22:43:14 <zzo38> What is bukkit plugins?
22:44:32 <zzo38> But what is bukkit?
22:46:14 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: or just write it yourself in a day or two?
22:46:19 <elliott> yes, but that delays the srver launch :)
22:46:29 <ais523> not if the existing plugins take more than a day or two to figure out
22:46:52 <elliott> zzo38: Bukkit is an API for writing portable plugins to change the game mechanics or add various server features to any supporting Minecraft multiplayer server
22:47:13 <elliott> ais523: but it's best to try first, because usually it'll take much less
22:47:32 <elliott> and by the time I realise rewriting would have been quicker, making the existing plugin work would probably add less time to the total than rewriting it from scratch
22:47:33 <olsner> try rewriting first? or using the existing one first?
22:47:43 <zzo38> Like what kind of game mechanics and server features do you change?
22:49:06 <elliott> zzo38: well, there are plenty of things that adjust the damage various monster attacks, fall damage, etc. do; there are plugins to protect blocks in certain areas from being created and destroyed by various users, and to stop people opening chests owned by others; there are plugins that add whole new game mechanics and blocks to the game; there are plugins that add portals that go to different alternate worlds; there are plugins to allow the serv
22:49:06 <elliott> er admin to create and edit blocks on a mass scale with commands... things that add various features to the chat system, etc. etc. etc.
22:49:36 <elliott> this particular plugin just adjusts the interval that the server saves the world in, and also periodically saves to a backup folder whenever anyone is online
22:50:10 <NihilistDandy> How many people can you reasonably have on a server at one time?
22:50:39 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Depends on how much money you have.
22:51:05 <elliott> NihilistDandy: The reddit servers have... god, how much is it, Phantom_Hoover?
22:51:22 <NihilistDandy> So for a reasonable hobbyist operation, probably no more than 10
22:51:43 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Eh, if you go with one of the "Minecraft server hosts", you could easily do twenty
22:52:15 <NihilistDandy> Mostly I'd just like to see a huge one, with enough people to reduce the landscape to bedrock within a few days
22:52:20 <elliott> I'm just doing it on my twenty-dollar-a-month one gig of RAM VPS, so something like seven would be the maximum before I'd see serious strain, I suspect, although that's with rather worst-case conditions (nobody sharing loaded chunks, etc.)
22:52:57 <NihilistDandy> Or *a* day, given the obsessive quality of Minecraft
22:52:58 <elliott> NihilistDandy: #esoteric-minecraft if you're interested; we've had a server before, but it hasn't been updated in a rather long time so I've got impatient and am starting my own.
23:25:44 <zzo38> I think LLVM trampolines seem to be more useful than GNU trampolines.
23:28:57 <olsner> you think they seem? should be easy to verify what they actually seem like :P
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