00:01:52 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/bwfbg9itrsaqres5uuyfrw
00:03:27 <Sgeo> That really wasn't an invitation, it was intended to be pasted in #jesus for luke's benefit
00:08:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:08:14 <Sgeo> <Phantom_Hoover> Worst party.
00:08:14 <Sgeo> <luke-jr> cyth: he was never a pope
00:08:14 <Sgeo> <Phantom_Hoover> Fuck this shit.
00:08:14 <Sgeo> * angelBot sets ban on *!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486
00:08:14 <Sgeo> * angelBot has kicked Phantom_Hoover from #jesus (For swearing)
00:08:25 <oerjan> conversion program now put in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function
00:10:42 <NihilistDandy> Have a lizard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sphaerodactylus_parthenopion_004.jpg
00:11:14 <oerjan> whether the word "optimal" can really be applied to a computational model which is something like doubly exponential, i dunno
00:13:02 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
00:13:46 <Sgeo> <FathZippyZanny> In conclusion, go NY Jets
00:13:46 <Sgeo> <FathZippyZanny> Amen
00:14:36 <Sgeo> I was under the impression that this person was Christian of a ... "Jesus is love' variety
00:15:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:15:34 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:17:27 <Patashu> are there any popular pro-life responses to http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html ?
00:18:23 <NihilistDandy> Patashu: "You'll kill a baby but not a convicted rapist?"
00:22:27 <oerjan> pro-death and anti-choice
00:23:25 <Patashu> nihilistdandy, have you read the page?
00:25:10 <Patashu> it's about pro-lifers having abortions, not pro-choicers
00:25:43 <Patashu> including two right to life club presidents which I lol'd at
00:25:58 <NihilistDandy> But that's the "hypocrisy" of pro-choice, if you listen to the lifers talk
00:26:45 <Patashu> yup but that would not be a response to 'the only moral abortion is my abortion'
00:27:02 <Patashu> tomaima says: even pro-lifers make the choice that we want to give you when needed
00:35:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:40:13 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:47:54 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:48:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:50:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:51:16 -!- MDude has joined.
00:58:12 <NihilistDandy> Also, he's an idolater, fo' sho': http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/reference/pkmn/
01:14:38 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:21:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:22:41 <Sgeo> zzo38 is a MegaZeux person right?
01:26:14 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:26:40 <zzo38> How can I know some thing about compiling rulebook programming?
01:27:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:27:56 <Sgeo> zzo38, http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Zzo38 is you right?
01:28:00 -!- cheater_ has joined.
01:28:07 <Sgeo> Although I don't think I've met "classic" zzo38
01:28:26 <oerjan> wait zzo38 has more than one meaning?
01:30:27 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know; that isn't a user page. Although User:Zzo38 on that wiki is me; and the game linked there is mine, so are the three external resources.
01:32:16 <zzo38> (In fact I can see they have mentioned whoever wrote that also seems to be unsure, although the stuff under "MegaZeux Games" and "External Links" headings I can confirm are correct)
01:34:03 <zzo38> But the game described on http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town is a game I have made. And there are still some mistakes in that game I ought to correct.
01:34:47 <zzo38> (None of the mistakes would deceive you or prevent the game from being completed from what I know, though. Some just allow you go to in ways that is not supposed to be permitted)
01:44:28 <zzo38> How many things in the "Criticize" list do you believe are correct?
01:49:12 <zzo38> oerjan: What do *you* think? Of course a lot of words can have more than one meaning.
01:52:33 <zzo38> I just realized I can use 3D movie glasses to find the dust on my computer screen.
01:53:41 <zzo38> Not actually wearing them; I need to use the glasses backwards to make this work (I don't know why).
01:54:24 <zzo38> And the computer needs to be showing a white screen.
01:54:37 <zzo38> If you have LCD monitor and REALD 3D movie glasses, you can try it yourself.
01:56:12 <zzo38> You also need to rotate 45 degrees counterclockwise
01:57:50 <zzo38> I wonder if I can somehow use the movie glasses and a mirror in order to create stereovision pictures on my computer.
01:58:13 <zzo38> Or maybe just these things are not sufficient.
02:01:04 <zzo38> Do you know how these movie glasses work and why they have the effects they do? I do know about some simpler ones that are simply linear polarization filters, but these are something else. Someone told me it is circular polarization.
02:04:11 <ais523> it's circular polarizatoin
02:05:32 <zzo38> I do not completely understand circular polarization though. I read something about it in Roger Penrose's book "Road to Reality". But I still don't know completely.
02:06:02 <ais523> it's basically linear polarization, but the direction changes over time, very quickly
02:06:20 <zzo38> I look up some things in Wikipedia about it
02:07:30 <zzo38> OK, so there is left-handed and right-handed; maybe this explains why it is different when looking through it forward or backward. Is it? I don't know.
02:09:09 <Lymee> > takeWhile (<5) [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, undefined]
02:09:12 <Lymee> > takeWhile (<=5) [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, undefined]
02:09:13 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5*Exception: Prelude.undefined
02:09:35 <Lymee> Obfuscating Haskell must be fun.
02:09:42 <zzo38> Now, how are LCD monitors polarized?
02:29:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
02:44:03 -!- lament has joined.
03:09:13 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:21:31 -!- azaq23 has joined.
03:27:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:48:14 -!- derrik has joined.
03:48:45 -!- derrik has left.
04:15:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
04:37:57 -!- sebbu has joined.
04:39:44 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
04:52:24 <zzo38> The rulebook programming I want to implement and figure out how to compile (probably into Haskell) is similar to that of Inform 7 (refer to chapter 18 of the Inform 7 manual), although the Inform 7 rulebooks is insufficient, and Inform 7 is very insufficient. Do you know anything about this?
04:52:56 <zzo38> I can describe various examples (including both things in the Inform 7 manual and things that are not in Inform 7 at all) if you want example, please.
04:59:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
05:05:35 -!- evincar has joined.
05:06:01 <zzo38> The "Writing with Inform" manual.
05:06:37 <zzo38> But to truly understand what I mean, you would also have to understand both Haskell and Magic: the Gathering.
05:07:06 <zzo38> The features of rules in Inform 7 is not quite sufficient, although they do have some of the stuff I want.
05:07:44 -!- burned has joined.
05:07:55 <zzo38> If you would like examples, please ask about it.
05:08:04 <zzo38> Or, clarification, etc
05:09:31 <zzo38> burned: About what?
05:09:47 <burned> this room. how esoteric is this room?
05:10:04 <coppro> I understand Haskell and Magic
05:11:15 <lament> burned: pretty fucking esoteric
05:11:27 <lament> "We're not really esoteric. It's just that nobody cares about us."
05:11:43 <zzo38> coppro: Good, because I would need help from someone who understands these things.
05:12:03 <evincar> Esoteric programming languages is (ostensibly) the topic.
05:12:39 <coppro> zzo38: are you talking about writing something akin to a Magic card rules parser?
05:12:58 <NihilistDandy> coppro: I think he's talking about writing a language that obeys Magic rules
05:13:36 <zzo38> coppro: Sort of. Not quite. Rather, something that is a programming language that has the features for designing such things.
05:13:47 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: Not quite.
05:14:26 <coppro> zzo38: can you provide some examples?
05:14:38 <coppro> preferably not Inform as I'm not familiar with it
05:15:37 <zzo38> coppro: Good, because I am not actually familiar with Inform either; I just read the documentation and examples. But yes I can give some examples.
05:15:42 <burned> zzo38: you would like a man who goes by the nick betta_y_omega
05:17:14 <burned> very much into difficult existential observations, just as you seem to be.
05:17:23 <zzo38> You could have the "if a creature has toughness>0 and damage>=toughness, destroy it immediately" rule belonging to the "state based effects rules".
05:17:41 <zzo38> An object could have a rule or rulebook belonging to it.
05:18:56 <zzo38> Such as, a static ability (represented by some Haskell type, possibly) belonging to something, and the static ability is a category of a rule, belonging to it, that means when calculating the power of a creature, if that creature is black, add 1 to the result.
05:19:07 <zzo38> And then it too can be called, overridden, and everything else.
05:19:56 <evincar> By the way, folks in here might like this question of mine on Programmers.SE: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/q/99582/2107
05:20:06 <zzo38> Consider you have: power :: Object -> (Maybe Int)
05:20:20 <coppro> zzo38: Hmm... I sort of understand the concept
05:20:31 <coppro> but I would need to see a prototype or more fully-fleshed example
05:21:45 <zzo38> Now there is a rule belonging to something, the rule adds stuff onto this function, and the rule has to be told by the other rules when it is to be applied.
05:23:45 <zzo38> I can try to figure out prototypes and more fully-fleshed examples, possibly tomorrow or I have no more time today (it is 10:22 PM in my timezone). I also have the following wiki page, which I will try to type more things on, and anyone with an account can help type things. Possibly some things already there can also be adjusted: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/wiki/Dangelo_Programming_Language
05:23:50 <burned> I suspect it stops being a rule at this point
05:24:40 <zzo38> s/ or I have no more time today / in case I have no more time today /
05:27:27 <zzo38> If you have anything else to say about it before I join again tomorrow, either type it on here (and I might review the logs, or you can tell me which UNIX timestamps they are near, etc), or type it on the wiki I mentioned, or type it on my User Talk page on esolang wiki.
05:27:38 <zzo38> But for now, I think I will sleep.
05:28:13 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, I think he needs help
05:28:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Oops the light exploded now I cannot read the book anymore (just joking)).
05:30:07 <pikhq_> May the blessing of Athe be upon him.
05:39:18 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, please don't kill me
05:43:23 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:43:48 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
05:47:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:05:26 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:11:15 <fizzie> Is that some sort of a silly-calendar 'date' replacement, like 'ddate'?
06:11:48 <HackEgo> Today is Sweetmorn, the 2nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3177
06:11:55 <fizzie> Heh, that thing is so widespread.
06:12:07 <ais523> I thought it was in coreutils
06:12:11 <ais523> but I'm not entirely sure
06:12:26 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ dpkg-query -S `which ddate`
06:12:26 <fizzie> util-linux: /usr/bin/ddate
06:13:29 <fizzie> I have a vague recollection some distribution or another opted to manipulate their util-linux package to not include ddate.
06:14:22 <ais523> sdate is great too, particularly because it /isn't/ a silly date replacement, but something infinitely more awesome
06:15:00 <fizzie> There have been "ddate should be in some other package, we don't want this sort of nonsense and idiocy on our servers -and/or- makes baby Jesus cry" bug reports in Debian every now and then.
06:15:38 <fizzie> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=149321 "People with more traditional moral values might not appreciate a reference to or advertisement for this movement being present on their system. -- This is significant because it can prevent such people from recommending Debian."
06:15:55 <pikhq_> That'd be much easier to respond to if they had Slackware-type sensibilities.
06:16:12 <pikhq_> Namely, "fuck non-necessary patches".
06:16:19 <fizzie> Oh, they actually did drop it at one point.
06:16:26 <pikhq_> Though the Church of the Subgenius sensibilities help too.
06:17:10 <fizzie> util-linux 2.11z-3 "* Drop ddate. Closes: #149321, #174459, #180737"; seems it came back later on though.
06:17:33 <fizzie> "I for one will not stand for this. I personally use ddate, I use it in some scripts, I know other people do the same, and I know some Debian developers would be annoyed if ddate was removed. There are even programs that use ddate, e.g. freecraft and the games that use its engine."
06:18:45 <NihilistDandy> Today is Sweetmorn,the 2nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3177
06:19:01 <NihilistDandy> I guess the bot and I are on the same day, for once
06:19:20 <pikhq_> Also, people who complain about that shouldn't see Xscreensaver.
06:19:27 <pikhq_> Last I checked that's full of Bob.
06:19:54 <ais523> Today is Sweetmorn, the 2nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3159
06:26:33 <fizzie> ais523: It uses tm_yday and tm_year members; based on a quick look at the sdate sources, the septemberfy() function does not modify that. (Just tm_mon and tm_mday.)
06:27:31 <fizzie> Otherwise it would overflow the season; there's a while (funkychickens.day >= 73) { funkychickens.season++; funkychickens.day -= 73; } loop in ddate.
06:29:15 <fizzie> It is not the cleanest codebase of them all, what with lines like "wibble = snarf;" and "hastur = convert(bob, raw);".
06:29:39 <ais523> time for me to go home, anyway
06:29:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:30:06 <pikhq_> If it were slackdate it'd have slack. But alas, it does not.
06:32:48 <fizzie> util-linux 2.11z-3 "Drop ddate."; util-linux 2.11z-4 "Put ddate back in, just to keep the natives quiet."
06:49:55 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: leaving).
07:04:44 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
07:59:12 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: it crashes my GPU <-- Hammerfight crashes X11 for me, cogs just crashes itself.
07:59:55 <fizzie> Aquaria crashes itself for me.
08:00:02 <fizzie> 2011 - year of Linux on the desktop?
08:00:42 <fizzie> Admittedly Cogs too segfaulted at start-up, but only once. Don't know what was up with that.
08:01:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, Aquaria being?
08:01:48 <fizzie> I guess it was in the #1 bundle.
08:01:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm on ATI, and catalyst. So I'm not terribly surprised stuff crashes for me
08:01:57 <fizzie> Which I got as part of the #2 one.
08:02:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, same deal with "more than average" as this time?
08:02:29 <fizzie> They seem to have a hobbit of doing that.
08:03:01 <fizzie> Someone suggested only purchasing every other bundle, to "optimize".
08:04:12 <fizzie> I guess I should try it on the laptop; only tried desktop so far.
08:06:35 <fizzie> I think I have something like 15 bundle games still completely untested, sadly.
08:07:20 <Vorpal> <Deewiant> Aquaria was good. <-- what sort of game is it?
08:07:38 <Deewiant> "Aquaria is a 2D sidescrolling action-adventure computer game"
08:07:42 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Someone suggested only purchasing every other bundle, to "optimize". <-- I was thinking about that just before you said it, but the frozenbyte one breaks the pattern
08:08:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I found that steelstorm one quite fun
08:08:08 <Vorpal> I don't normally like that sort of game
08:08:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, given that the two-in-one deals require above-average prices, the most optimal way (moneywise, I mean) would probably to get each bundle separately and pay $0.01 for each.
08:09:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually they gave it to everyone who got it before they announced the above-average this time.
08:09:30 <Vorpal> at least I heard so from a friend who got it on day 1, but was below average.
08:09:39 <Vorpal> (personally I was above average)
08:10:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, tried And Yet It Moves?
08:10:58 <fizzie> <fizzie> AYIM was all "can't find a suitable OpenGL visual" on both of the two computers I tried it on. But according to the forums it's a known bug, and there's a fixed build already in beta-testing.
08:11:28 <fizzie> http://andyetitmoves.net/forum/index.php?topic=162.0
08:11:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw do we indie bundle buyers get future updates to things like VVVVV and AYIM?
08:12:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't get any sound in crayon physics for example
08:12:51 <fizzie> No clue. I would sort-of assume that they update the bundle download page packages, but perhaps not quite immediately.
08:13:27 <fizzie> But that was just a guess.
08:13:50 <Vorpal> also I have to say braid was bloody good
08:16:37 <fizzie> I liked the game, but I recall getting a bit of a "pretentious asshole" feel from something the author had written. Still, that was easy enough to ignore.
08:16:52 <fizzie> Also (like others have commented) it's not very replayable after going through it once.
08:17:08 -!- choochter has joined.
08:17:28 -!- teuchter has joined.
08:21:44 <fizzie> Not sure I can think of any very replayable platformers though.
08:22:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm randomised platformer maps?
08:22:19 <Vorpal> but I guess it could work
08:22:50 <fizzie> Level design is hard enough for humans; getting something that's both fun and challenging out of rand() might be slightly difficult.
08:23:01 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen it done either.
08:23:24 <Deewiant> http://www.supermariobrothers.org/infinite-mario.html
08:24:04 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it is flash, can't play it. Is it any good?
08:24:46 <Deewiant> http://www.mojang.com/notch/mario/ is Java
08:25:18 <Vorpal> java in browser, might work in appletviewer I guess
08:25:49 <Vorpal> loads in appletviewer, input broken
08:25:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think I saw that; also have seen one of those mario AIs been tested against random levels.
08:25:54 <Vorpal> guess I'll check another day
08:33:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:34:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
08:40:21 <Patashu> The best approach to take with a procedural platformer would be to take challenges, jumps, enemy placements and so on that are known to work and string them together
08:40:29 <Patashu> Kind of like the infinite mode in megaman 10 but more flexible?
08:49:55 -!- choochter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:50:07 -!- teuchter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:50:45 -!- choochter has joined.
08:50:55 -!- teuchter has joined.
09:00:59 -!- teuchter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..).
09:07:06 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: sleep).
09:10:01 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:14:19 <cheater_> anyone know if XQuery's "return" is similar to Python's "yield"?
09:26:00 -!- myndzi has joined.
09:26:31 <fizzie> I don't think it's quite as generic as a Python generator, but somewhat similar, yes; the other parts define a stream of values-for-the-variables, and then the "return" expression is evaluated for each set of values, and the result is a sequence of those. (Disclaimer: never actually *used* XQuery for reals.)
09:30:31 -!- FireyFly has joined.
09:33:57 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
09:35:04 -!- FireyFly has quit (Client Quit).
09:35:14 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:35:22 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
09:38:36 -!- FireyFly has joined.
09:42:02 -!- myndzi has joined.
09:45:09 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:47:26 <Lymee> Why arn't generators in Python callable?
09:48:22 <Lymee> !python exec "def generator():\n\twhile True:\n\t\tyield 1\ngen=generator()\nprint gen.next()"
09:48:29 <Lymee> !python exec "def generator():\n\twhile True:\n\t\tyield 1\ngen=generator()\nprint gen()"
09:48:30 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
09:50:33 <fizzie> Maybe they just assume you'll always be using them in places such as for loops where the generator interface (.next()) is used implicitly.
09:51:31 <Nisstyre> fizzie: you can use them in infinite loops as well
09:51:41 <Nisstyre> you can also pass things back and forth between them after you start them
09:54:37 <Lymee> Can you write coroutines with generators?
09:55:20 <Nisstyre> it depends on your definition of coroutines
09:55:41 <Nisstyre> you might be able to get something similar
09:58:19 <fizzie> Google finds at least one wrapper class that wraps a generator object into a class so that "foo()" does "foo.next()" and "foo(x)" does "foo.send(x)".
09:59:35 <fizzie> (So seems that other people have also wanted that sort of syntactic sugar.)
10:04:03 <Patashu> I think changing it now might break people's generators that have something for () already?
10:04:16 <Patashu> unless a new () implementation shadowed the default generator one
10:05:33 <fizzie> I don't think a generator can currently have anything for (), since you can't stick a __call__ attribute into the generator object. (That's why the wrapper class provides a separate class instead of mungling the generator.)
10:06:20 <fizzie> I'm actually a bit surprised there doesn't seem to be a PEP for it.
10:06:32 <fizzie> Perhaps people just don't mind the .next/.send method names so much?
10:12:51 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:13:02 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
10:15:33 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:25:37 -!- cheater_ has joined.
10:28:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
10:29:57 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:42:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
10:42:58 -!- cheater_ has joined.
10:44:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:44:39 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
11:34:37 -!- cheater_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
11:35:08 -!- cheater_ has joined.
11:58:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I go to bed an hour and a half earlier than normal and I get up an hour later.
12:20:12 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
12:33:48 -!- aloril has joined.
12:36:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:07:02 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sleep works in ~3-hour cycles. If your sleeping time presented an ideal wakeup time before, then your choices were to either wake up ~1.5 hours earlier or ~1.5 hours later. Since one factor in when we wake up is our environment (i.e. how light it is), you probably weren't inclined to choose the earlier. But waking up at your normal time was never an option.
13:42:02 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..).
13:47:40 -!- burned has left.
13:55:29 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
14:03:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:07:50 -!- lament has joined.
14:14:45 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
14:19:10 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
14:27:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:05:42 -!- itidus20 has joined.
15:19:36 <Gregor> Suggestion for a simple X window manager which needs only the left mouse button?
15:37:11 <pikhq_> Oh, sure, be anti-tiling.
15:40:59 -!- jcp|1 has joined.
15:42:12 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> Suggestion for a simple X window manager which needs only the left mouse button?
15:42:56 -!- jcp|other has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:43:01 <Phantom_Hoover> What X window manager *do* you need the right mouse button for?
15:46:34 -!- jcp has joined.
15:51:19 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:52:18 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: "has a menu" is fairly anti-tiling though.
15:54:51 -!- derrik has joined.
15:57:50 -!- elliott has joined.
16:21:02 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Many of the desktop-menu ones need the right mouse button to access the menu
16:24:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of chloride, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:29:02 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:34:01 <elliott> 05:15:42: <burned> zzo38: you would like a man who goes by the nick betta_y_omega
16:34:01 <elliott> 05:17:14: <burned> very much into difficult existential observations, just as you seem to be.
16:35:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what?
16:35:58 <Sgeo> (No, I am not Satan)
16:36:09 -!- Taneb_ has joined.
16:36:17 <elliott> 05:19:56: <evincar> By the way, folks in here might like this question of mine on Programmers.SE: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/q/99582/2107
16:36:17 <elliott> i assumed you were linking this as a stupid question before i read the rest of the line
16:36:28 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:36:37 -!- Taneb_ has changed nick to Taneb.
16:36:44 <elliott> "But there seems to be a broad consensus that Lisp represents the theoretical pinnacle of programming language design."
16:36:46 <elliott> ahahahahauaihuifkjgfdjdkfg
16:36:51 <elliott> "Which I guess amounts to questioning whether the lambda calculus is in fact the ideal abstraction of computation."
16:37:02 <elliott> yes Lisp is definitely the closest possible language to the lambda calculus
16:37:12 <elliott> this is the stupidest question i've ever read good lord
16:37:35 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if, just maybe, liking Clojure is not grounds for immediate hatred.
16:37:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The guy behind Arcane Sentiment likes Clojure well enough, so it isn't
16:37:58 <elliott> Try not to be a Stanislav.
16:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but... you know what happened when I talked to the Clojurians.
16:38:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, so the IRC channel is of especially bad quality.
16:39:01 <elliott> Rich Hickey seems intelligent enough; I remember looking into Clojure when he announced it on reddit years ago.
16:39:11 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:40:50 <fizzie> Best automated customer support line ever. It's open only until 6pm for June-August, but the recently mailed letter didn't say so. Calling the number gives a recording which requests an account number and a personal passcode, and says "if you don't have a passcode, you can order it by calling [the same number I'm calling to]", and nowhere in the recording does it bother to mention that all their humans have left the building already.
16:41:22 <fizzie> At least the website does list the summer opening hours.
16:42:04 <elliott> 08:13:50: <Vorpal> also I have to say braid was bloody good
16:42:04 <elliott> 08:16:37: <fizzie> I liked the game, but I recall getting a bit of a "pretentious asshole" feel from something the author had written. Still, that was easy enough to ignore.
16:42:15 <CakeProphet> also, more importantly I guess, what makes appreciation of a language a fault in character.
16:42:24 <elliott> fizzie: I had this feeling that he was that type, but it was the "abstraction is totally bad, doods" programming talk he gave that made me start my seething rage subprocess.
16:42:32 <elliott> (Also known as: the process that dominates my system.)
16:42:44 <elliott> CakeProphet: You'd talk to a PHP fan?
16:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, the time I went into the IRC channel I spent ages trying to overcome the consensus that O(log_32(n)) == O(ln n)/
16:42:48 <CakeProphet> elliott: dynamic typing = pinnacle of programming language design
16:43:06 <elliott> CakeProphet: See, you're CakeProphet, so I don't know whether you're joking or being serious.
16:43:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: =/=, surely.
16:43:37 <CakeProphet> elliott: first statement was serious. second was serious.
16:43:53 <elliott> CakeProphet: Sorry you're already on /ignore :-P
16:45:27 <elliott> 13:07:02: <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sleep works in ~3-hour cycles. If your sleeping time presented an ideal wakeup time before, then your choices were to either wake up ~1.5 hours earlier or ~1.5 hours later. Since one factor in when we wake up is our environment (i.e. how light it is), you probably weren't inclined to choose the earlier. But waking up at your normal time was never an option.
16:45:39 <elliott> Gregor: Citation? I've never heard this but I should probably pay attention if it's true/
16:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm slightly sceptical that sleep is aligned to 3-hour periods.
16:46:47 <elliott> Weeeell, there is the circadian rhythm body clock crap, so it /could/ be true, but I'm gonna hold out on a citation.
16:46:48 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You can add __attribute__ ((aligned (1))) to your sleep to get unaligned sleep.
16:50:54 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, what's the alignment held by? <-- those radio clock signals. Yet another reason for a tinfoil hat
16:51:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember hearing about a 3 hour cycle thingy when sleeping, never heard anything about it being aligned to anything in specific
16:52:05 <elliott> Sounds like pop science bull to me, at least at first glance
16:54:17 <itidus20> ok just to put things into perspective, say what you will of my next statement but the science of sleep will be used by evil people
16:55:01 <itidus20> its like, just imagine if you can set off an atomic bomb inside someones mind
16:55:33 <itidus20> psychology is probably looking for the great mental nuke
16:55:57 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#Physiology <-- "In humans, each sleep cycle lasts from 90 to 110 minutes on average."
16:56:02 <Vorpal> hm doesn't really fit 3 hours
16:56:37 <itidus20> control over our minds and our thoughts requires some degree of harmony with the environment around us
16:57:06 <Sgeo> And the use of quantum mechanics to prove that our minds are not material?
16:57:25 <Sgeo> ^^indicator that I think this is going into pseudoscience territory
16:57:49 <itidus20> they apparently don't know exactly what triggers sleep yet
16:57:56 <Phantom_Hoover> No, as the official science consultant I say it's fine.
16:57:56 <itidus20> or if they do they're keeping awfully quiet about it
16:58:33 <itidus20> it seems like to me its a kind of distributed defence against an external force controlling ones sleep
16:58:53 <itidus20> distributing the causes of sleep widely
16:59:42 <itidus20> for the 1% benefit of this control, is 99% disaster
17:00:45 <itidus20> the eidetic reduction of sleep and death remain elusive
17:01:31 <itidus20> eidetic reduction is a thing i stumbled on in a wiki page once... you guys probably know it by a better name
17:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "eidetic reduction, in phenomenology, a method by which the philosopher moves from the consciousness of individual and concrete objects to the transempirical realm of pure essences and thus achieves an intuition of the eidos (Greek: “shape”) of a thing"
17:01:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's a kind of cheese.
17:02:25 <Phantom_Hoover> You can put trans- or quasi- in front of any desirable adjective and immediately you can use it for anything.
17:02:28 <Sgeo> I think it's like asking "What _is_ a chair, and chairness"?
17:02:42 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to WhatIsAChair.
17:02:47 <itidus20> i think its related to parameterization
17:02:48 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:02:58 <elliott> itidus20: Traansparameterisation
17:03:06 <elliott> Quasimetatransparameterisation.
17:03:16 <elliott> even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious
17:03:22 <itidus20> parameterization is much of a nicer word
17:03:44 <elliott> if you say it loud enough you'll always sound quasimetatransprecocious
17:03:53 <elliott> quasimetatranscircumparameterisation
17:04:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You just don't understand ologyology.
17:04:23 <itidus20> people use big words around me.. i go on wiki.. find a few new big words.. im just an agent of these words
17:04:34 <elliott> itidus20: the words are controlling you
17:05:07 <elliott> is anything more powerful than quasimetatranscircumparameterisation
17:05:11 <elliott> (in this joke quasimetatranscircumparameterisation stands in for lisp)
17:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, your knowledge is measured by the length of the words it's expressed in, after all.
17:06:05 <CakeProphet> superextraintersubquasimetatranscircumparameterisation
17:06:31 * itidus20 stops. Backs up a second. Sometimes I try to squeeze what i'm trying to say into some obscure word which doesn't mean what I want it to mean.
17:07:42 <itidus20> The minimal state of things which makes something go from being awake to asleep.. alive to dead
17:08:06 <itidus20> minimal as in minimal *shrugs shoulders*
17:09:31 <Phantom_Hoover> (iridi- is not a real prefix, I just made it up and it probably means rainbows.)
17:09:44 <itidus20> we know that chopping off the head of an animal with a head will usually kill it
17:11:07 <itidus20> which could be related to destroying the circulatory and respitory systems
17:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So you're saying that going to sleep is basically having your head chopped off?
17:11:40 <CakeProphet> But then does saying something make it true? :3
17:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Also it's nothing to do with either, it's because life is more or less defined in terms of brain activity and decapitation removes the energy supply to the brain.
17:11:56 <itidus20> i know giving someone tranquilizers is likely to put them to sleep
17:12:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: AHA SO PLANTS ARE DEAD
17:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well OK among things that have a brain it is.
17:12:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's brainism.
17:12:33 <itidus20> plants are resilient motherfuckers
17:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Because the brain is almost always the central control system so removing it breaks all the rest sooner or later.
17:13:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Also because the supply systems to it are so integral that their removal disrupts the whole network.
17:13:49 <elliott> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=661719
17:13:51 <elliott> Gregor.......................
17:13:58 <derrik> not nice to discriminate against non-brainers
17:14:01 <CakeProphet> death is absence of what constitutes life in something that once had it.
17:14:26 <itidus20> well... the idea of a human living without a brain freaks us all out massively
17:15:14 <itidus20> even zombies have brains right.. skeletons don't though
17:16:09 <Gregor> elliott: Brendan made me do it!
17:16:31 <elliott> Gregor: You're in the habit of listening to the kind of person who does things like invent JavaScript?
17:16:51 <elliott> Gregor: (I was googling JSMIPS because I want to figure out how MIPS works without doing any actual work.)
17:17:27 <Gregor> elliott: It was at a talk at Mozilla :P
17:17:43 <itidus20> "Ashton Kutcher has publicly stated that he is afraid of his wife Demi Moore's collection of dolls, having grown-up watching Child's Play as a kid."
17:17:44 <elliott> Gregor: If Eich told you to jump off a cliff would you do it??????????????????????
17:17:52 <elliott> Gregor: If Eich told you to use IE would you do it?????????????
17:17:53 <CakeProphet> I think we should do away with all programming languages because elliott doesn't like any of them.
17:18:11 <elliott> CakeProphet: True statements: I am always serious all the time and mocking JavaScript is unreasonable.
17:18:14 <elliott> WAIT, by true I mean false.
17:18:31 <itidus20> elliott: you know what would be a cool graph? "If X told Y to jump off a cliff, would they do it?"
17:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, also he likes languages that don't exist because he hasn't had time to hate them.
17:18:58 <itidus20> the fact is that some instances hte answer is yes
17:19:07 <itidus20> its a balancing factor in the power dynamics of the world
17:19:33 <elliott> Gregor: Look at these posers: https://github.com/Esteth/JSMips
17:19:39 <elliott> CoffeeScript: SO NOT JAVASCRIPT???
17:19:44 <WhatIsAChair> Does "power dynamics" and "balancing factor" actually represent anything in the real world?
17:19:53 <CakeProphet> it would be false for all X that can't jump off of cliffs.
17:20:00 <WhatIsAChair> Well, ok, "power dynamics" does, I guess, but "balancing factor"?
17:20:06 <CakeProphet> which becomes ambiguous if we interpret the sentence metaphorically.
17:20:07 <itidus20> CakeProphet: well thats a start
17:20:30 <itidus20> CakeProphet: i was thinking of humans :P
17:20:42 * WhatIsAChair wonders what would happen if itidus20 was in #jesus
17:20:52 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, any citation on that three-hour sleep remark?
17:20:53 <itidus20> and.. also.. presuming that this statement can be translated into any language
17:21:13 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
17:21:36 <itidus20> yeah, people love to use the cliff jumper statement casually.. but it has meaning
17:22:09 <itidus20> X is likely to be percieved by Y as an authority figure
17:22:21 <itidus20> or else why would Y be listening to X at all
17:22:21 <elliott> Add immediateaddi $t,$s,C$t = $s + C (signed)
17:22:22 <elliott> Add immediate unsignedaddiu $t,$s,C$t = $s + C (signed)
17:22:26 <elliott> Uhh, surely "C (unsigned)"...?
17:22:41 <itidus20> If Y is unassertive, then Y will percieve a larger set X
17:22:57 <elliott> See, clearly Gregor's problems are because he coded his emulator based on Wikipedia.
17:23:04 <Gregor> elliott: Nope, it's probably just a folk tale :P
17:23:35 <itidus20> If Milgram asked you to shock a guy, would you?
17:23:36 <elliott> I guess it could do an /unsigned/ add with a /signed/ constant
17:23:40 <elliott> But would that even mean anyting
17:24:06 <itidus20> It's sort of related... only a little bit
17:24:50 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: Additionally, your presence is requested in #jesus.
17:24:59 <itidus20> #jesus was created by the large hadron collider
17:25:29 <elliott> NihilistDandy: WhatIsAChair
17:26:33 <itidus20> nah.. i don't like to go to a room and pick fights
17:27:29 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:27:36 -!- WhatIsAChair has changed nick to Sgeo.
17:29:33 -!- boily has joined.
17:34:37 <zzo38> Due to the lack of QUIT commands in the log file, it makes it difficult to use AWK and stuff to check for things I might want to check for. Can Gregor correct this?
17:36:51 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: the trick is that i keep fuelling my steam engine... so that i don't have to force myself into a rant... but that my environment draws a rant out of me. that is how i like it
17:38:11 <itidus20> it is like uh... you can drill anywhere deep enough and create a lava pool ya know
17:38:19 <itidus20> the lava is always waiting for the drill
17:41:17 <zzo38> elliott: That doesn't help
17:41:34 <elliott> zzo38: you can get raw logs for the whole day
17:41:36 <elliott> that includes all channels
17:42:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it really should log those things in the formatted logs, though.
17:42:32 <zzo38> elliott: OK. Yes, those ones do. But the individual channell logs do not. I think I understand why, although I think it should be corrected anyways.
17:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, memorising fallacies won't make you think logically.
17:44:38 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I am talking about unformatted logs
17:44:44 <CakeProphet> I like bears. I want a programming language with bears.
17:45:13 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Then invent one in esolang wiki.
17:47:31 <itidus20> I think that inventing a language is an art.
17:47:55 <CakeProphet> it would be interesting to simulate an ecosystem as a programming model\.
17:49:51 <itidus20> you already have a PC... and the CPU already has as many instructions as it will ever have.. so that tells us a language is not about making a PC do low level things that it couldn't do before
17:49:57 <elliott> Sgeo: ahahaha did luke-jr really just
17:50:16 <CakeProphet> it's the means of expression that is important.
17:50:21 <Sgeo> elliott, he considers all non-Catholics to be heretics
17:50:35 <itidus20> CakeProphet: i wish my statement could be perfect.. but it is useless empty words
17:50:47 <itidus20> it collapses under its own weight
17:50:50 <Sgeo> elliott, and the current Papacy too
17:51:26 <CakeProphet> itidus20: nah it's just not detailed. abstract thought doesn't really have to be very specific to be helpful or constructive.
17:51:41 <elliott> Prayer: The same thing as meditation.
17:51:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the fact that the Christians in #jesus evidently hate each other as much as anyone else.
17:52:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the problem with #jesus is that they let atheists who are open about it in
17:52:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: and they ruin the atmosphere :(
17:52:38 <itidus20> CakeProphet: so.. standard libraries... they get connected to languages
17:52:45 <itidus20> in practice they may infact be a part of the language
17:53:09 <elliott> the... guy with japan in his name was particularly bad
17:53:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And another who may have just been a sane Christian; he called me a troll and /ignored me.
17:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is completely unfair, since I'm not trolling anyone and never have.
17:53:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, who?
17:53:49 <Sgeo> Hmm, that name only rings the faintest of bells
17:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm just gently leading them along the path they're going along.
17:53:59 <HackEgo> 57) <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster? \ 299) <elliott_> The context is Gracenotes releasing an illegal copy of a film about monster cock dildos. \ 391) <Cheery> [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got
17:54:03 <HackEgo> 391) <Cheery> [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got destroyed
17:54:07 <CakeProphet> yes, they can be defined by the language or built-in to the runtime
17:54:23 <itidus20> well they extend what the human can do at least
17:54:43 <itidus20> which defeats my first comment
17:56:03 <itidus20> so you have the very lowest level supplied to you.. the asm/machine language level.. that is a given.. video, audio, keyboard, disk I/O, RAM.. also a given
17:56:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, that name also rings a faint bell
17:56:24 <elliott> Sgeo: hmm, wait, does pthing identify as christian in hash-jesus?
17:56:34 <Sgeo> elliott, I think so
17:57:02 <itidus20> but the CPU isn't really aware of all the other hardware
17:57:13 <CakeProphet> well, the only thing that is aware is the human....
17:57:16 <itidus20> oops im using wrong words again
17:57:31 <NihilistDandy> Thought he identifies as no such thing in #not-math
17:58:13 <itidus20> CPU doesn't have many (if any) instructions for dealing with the various hardware
17:58:40 <itidus20> all the instructions revolve around the registers and ram
17:58:56 <Sgeo> Sgeo> Pthing, do you identify as Christian?
17:58:56 <Sgeo> <Pthing> of course
17:59:16 <itidus20> it has the ports and interrupts but it doesn't really go further than that..
17:59:30 <CakeProphet> how would they feel about a Discordian, I wonder?
17:59:42 <elliott> Sgeo: identifying as christian in hash-jesus doesn't make one christian, naturally
17:59:45 <pikhq_> itidus20: There exists precisely one builtin API for dealing with the hardware on common PC systems.
17:59:49 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, funny, it has more than enough instructions to.
17:59:51 <pikhq_> itidus20: BIOS. And it sucks.
18:00:05 <pikhq_> Okay, I suppose ACPI too. And it sucks harder.
18:01:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
18:01:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:01:44 <pikhq_> itidus20: ACPI is about various forms of power management.
18:01:52 <pikhq_> It is also one of the dozen or so ways of shutting off a PC.
18:02:15 <itidus20> do most standard libs use BIOS? or do any reimplement BIOS?
18:02:26 <itidus20> or is it inefficient to reimplement BIOS?
18:02:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: just paste in a NUL, dude
18:02:30 <elliott> if your clipboard can handle it
18:02:35 <elliott> xchat might not even be able to
18:02:42 <pikhq_> itidus20: No, the BIOS sucks so damned much that it's utterly ignored by the time you're in 32-bit execution.
18:03:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: settings->advanced->keyboard shortcuts
18:03:09 <pikhq_> It was pitiful *even on the original IBM PC*.
18:03:31 <pikhq_> Nowadays, the BIOS is an overblown boot loader.
18:03:32 <itidus20> pikhq_: ok. sorry to respond to every question with an inference, but, so the BIOS is replaced by the OS APIs then?
18:03:41 <itidus20> ^to every reply with an inference
18:03:43 <CakeProphet> elliott: well I wasn't really going to plan anything clever.
18:03:51 <pikhq_> itidus20: Yes. Completely and utterly replaced.
18:04:24 <pikhq_> To the point where if they could actually remove the BIOS from memory (it's in ROM that's always mapped into physical memory space), they would.
18:04:39 <pikhq_> And you can, in fact, remove it while the system's running to no ill effect.
18:04:43 <elliott> Every Christian swear filter IRC ban thing after http://bash.org/?178890 sucks.
18:05:27 <pikhq_> (this, incidentally, is one of the ways of getting coreboot on a system without making it impossible to go back to the original BIOS)
18:05:52 <NihilistDandy> What about that one where where luke-jr mentioned some Latin paper and got kicked for saying cum?
18:06:27 <elliott> NihilistDandy: ok that was good.
18:06:34 <elliott> CakeProphet: <darkmatter> I may not categorize people based on beliefs, but that... yeah... pass me a woodchipper and that guys personals
18:06:41 <elliott> I require your personal ads.
18:06:47 <itidus20> Due to the benefits of driver abstraction layers noone would want to reimplement API functionality except in extreme cases.
18:07:12 <elliott> Meanwhile, Sgeo practices the ancient Christian tradition of self-incriminating.
18:07:43 <pikhq_> itidus20: Experience tells us that hardware manufacturers universally suck, and should never be trusted to implement code.
18:08:08 <elliott> CakeProphet: * angelBot removes ban on *!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake
18:08:11 <elliott> CakeProphet: Just so you know.
18:09:06 <itidus20> CakeProphet: I have surmised that when building a language, the CPU was the wrong place for me to look.
18:09:14 <pikhq_> itidus20: Linux has a giant swath of workarounds for things like vendor's ACPI stacks.
18:09:47 <pikhq_> It *really* doesn't help that their idea of "done" means "Windows boots".
18:09:48 -!- monqy has joined.
18:10:12 <CakeProphet> itidus20: why would you even start there in the first place?
18:10:49 <pikhq_> In short: the PC architecture is terrible, the first thing anyone on bare hardware should do is abstract it out of existence.
18:10:51 <itidus20> because in the end the language will become a stream of machine code
18:11:28 <CakeProphet> or it will be the input to someone elses stream of machine code.
18:11:49 <itidus20> yeah the stream analogy is very broken
18:12:01 <itidus20> especially if one considers threads and multicores
18:12:05 <pikhq_> elliott: This should frighten you, but every single OS in use abstracts most the hardware nearly out of existence.
18:13:19 <itidus20> CakeProphet: i am looking at the givens.
18:13:29 <pikhq_> elliott: More misthink. :P
18:14:13 <itidus20> pikhq_: yet ironically it all rests within the hardware which it abstracts
18:14:52 <pikhq_> Hmm. It probably wouldn't take much effort to make Linux into a VM...
18:15:06 <monqy> how much is too much
18:15:16 <itidus20> the hardware provides the physical space for the information space of the OS
18:15:17 <pikhq_> Probably not worth the effort, though.
18:15:30 <pikhq_> elliott: No, I mean in the sense of JVM.
18:16:02 <pikhq_> No, I do not have any intent of doing this at all.
18:16:37 <elliott> <darkmatter> not that that bothers me, but is definitely not appropriate for clicking by any other than the target
18:16:42 <elliott> Sgeo: please offer to link it directly to CakeProphet
18:16:47 <elliott> it is your duty as a good person
18:17:17 <elliott> CakeProphet: <darkmatter> I have an awesome .gif for responding to uncalled for douchery, but it contains unwholesome language :(
18:17:38 <elliott> CakeProphet: also you're being a fuckwit.
18:17:43 <monqy> is douchery an unwholesome language
18:17:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:19:10 <itidus20> The abstract machine on which a language is implemented is likely to be no lower than the OS.
18:19:24 <elliott> CakeProphet: You can't say that and then not link it.
18:20:07 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
18:20:07 <elliott> <NihilistDandy> http://i.imgur.com/Fajmt.gif
18:20:08 <elliott> <NihilistDandy> It's apparently being passed around by Sgeo by PM
18:20:11 <elliott> Sgeo: saved you the effort
18:20:24 <itidus20> monqy, in other words my statement is: most compilers and interpreters require an OS.
18:20:26 <CakeProphet> elliott: ...also, are you saying my mspa and bloodninja references followed by flagrant Jesus pornography was unjustified on #jesus?
18:20:47 <elliott> CakeProphet: yes. if you're going to be a dick to them at least make it amusing
18:20:58 <CakeProphet> I think, in fact, it is the reason for that channel's existence.
18:21:04 <monqy> itidus20: that hardly makes one necessary
18:21:07 <NihilistDandy> CakeProphet: Flagrant Jesus Pornography is the name of my next nonfiction book
18:21:50 <CakeProphet> elliott: my approach is not sophisticated enough for you, yes?
18:21:53 <monqy> itidus20: so i don't see the relevance of your statements
18:21:59 <itidus20> monqy: but even the people here are rarely so masochistic as to do it without one
18:22:06 <lambdabot> "nandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandna...
18:22:31 <elliott> i wonder if the thing is a thing
18:23:09 * Sgeo is still offended by nyan cat not appearing in the original video where it used to
18:23:15 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, yes, we know
18:23:21 <itidus20> monqy: to be honest i don't have any idea what can be done without an OS
18:23:25 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: ah, I thought elliott said to link it..
18:23:44 <elliott> itidus20: the exact same as can be done with an OS
18:23:55 <elliott> * Sgeo is still offended by nyan cat not appearing in the original video where it used to
18:23:57 <itidus20> does one fall back on the BIOS then?
18:24:11 <elliott> itidus20: no, one just uses the same code to accomplish a task as the OS does.
18:24:29 <Sgeo> elliott, the ... bar thing
18:24:34 <elliott> itidus20: and therefore impossible?
18:24:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:24:43 <itidus20> could a brainfuck interpreter be created on which an OS could be implemented?
18:25:06 <CakeProphet> not by the original definition of the language.
18:25:33 <elliott> itidus20: only if it can do everything the machine language can do, IO-wise. (please don't start CakeProphet)
18:25:48 <elliott> (proof: just write out the machine code for the OS, and jump to it)
18:25:55 <elliott> I guess that isn't really IO
18:26:08 <elliott> but, uhh, it's a trivial answer, but with messy definitions, so let's just ignore the question
18:27:11 <itidus20> what about taking minix and translating it into BF
18:27:25 <itidus20> an extended BF which can do what is necesary
18:28:09 <Phantom_Hoover> There's an idea which has spawned countless fell things.
18:28:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DF addiction detected.
18:28:31 <itidus20> i can see how dumb it is.. ill make a coffe instead
18:28:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which Humble Bundle game should I try first.
18:28:58 <elliott> `addquote <itidus20> what i mean by afk is <itidus20> i can see how dumb it is.. ill make a coffe instead
18:28:59 <HackEgo> 572) <itidus20> what i mean by afk is <itidus20> i can see how dumb it is.. ill make a coffe instead
18:29:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Because the concept interested me and I'd already looked at it.
18:29:54 <HackEgo> 8) <SimonRC> TODO: sex life
18:30:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't. I haven't played any of the previous bundle games.
18:30:51 <CakeProphet> I randomly click squares and then they explode.
18:31:01 <monqy> i don't even do that
18:32:12 <monqy> i dont beleive in incremetn
18:34:47 <NihilistDandy> Getting all the damn puzzle pieces is such a shore
18:35:14 <NihilistDandy> When I came back I spent a half hour rewinding just to get on that fucking cloud
18:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, it's not just a matter of precision, I can see no way at all it's possible based on the data available about the level.
18:36:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, one of the early ones?
18:36:49 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, that's a star
18:36:52 <Sgeo> Not a puzzle piece
18:37:15 <Sgeo> Or, wait, are you talking about something else?
18:38:39 -!- nooga has joined.
18:39:29 <itidus20> CakeProphet: i just had an idea
18:39:55 <itidus20> puzzle game based on life. (i suppose like everything under the sun it has already been done)
18:40:18 <CakeProphet> life the game or... the game of life... or life the... life?
18:40:31 <itidus20> you would get a finite set of live cell chips.. and a pre-layed out board.. and you have to position those chips to bring about a certain event
18:40:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Everyone who's heard of it has thought "what if I made it into..... A REAL GAME"
18:40:53 <itidus20> and then you proceed to the next stage
18:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The most resilient can asymptotically resist less than half the gliders fired at it IIRC.
18:41:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is there a proof of that?
18:41:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just stack an infinite number of them together PERFECTION.
18:41:59 <itidus20> well the idea would be to say, for each stage, make the level turn to all dead cells
18:42:09 <itidus20> with a finite pile of live cells
18:42:25 <itidus20> so you would have very simple puzzles
18:43:21 <itidus20> it could be you have to place all the cells in one go
18:43:50 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: That sounds exactly like GoL, but with goals
18:44:21 <itidus20> the goal of reducing it to all dead cells seems the most workable
18:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Putting everything behind an ash shield is more or less the only way to stop it exploding from stray gliders, and then how do you interact with the outside world?
18:47:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: help what do you prescribe for someone who read the latest Dinosaur Comic and now can't stop laughing.
18:48:44 <elliott> Hmm, I wonder whether I should make this GPipe change the overly-general way or the ugly way.
18:49:25 <CakeProphet> why are you even asking that question when you already know the answer?
18:49:44 <elliott> Well the former would have a runtime speed penalty, I think.
18:50:27 <fizzie> Both the ugliness and the speed penalty.
18:50:43 <elliott> CakeProphet: No real way to overcome typeclass overhead.
18:50:54 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: you're right. mathematical games and john nash games do not deserve to be video games.
18:50:57 <CakeProphet> isn't there like a specialize pragma or something?
18:50:58 <monqy> special cases suck, should die
18:51:19 <elliott> CakeProphet: It... wouldn't work here.
18:53:01 <NihilistDandy> elliott: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2015
18:53:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:54:04 <elliott> <lupine_85> esoteric religions have never been as popular as exoteric ones
18:54:05 <elliott> <lupine_85> they're harder work
18:55:06 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: bedtime).
18:58:10 -!- nooga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:01:00 <itidus20> If I could make days last forever. If would could make wishes come true.
19:01:13 <itidus20> I'd save every day like a tresure and then, again, I would spend them with you.
19:06:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:06:33 -!- pumpkin has joined.
19:06:46 <cheater_> elliott: are you giving out free thetan measurements
19:07:14 <cheater_> itidus20, sit down while i measure your lambdans
19:07:27 <itidus20> wow. that was funny on so many levels :D
19:07:43 <cheater_> please hold the two ends of this Y combinator
19:09:01 <cheater_> doesn't seem like your lambdan levels are so high itidus20, do you feel adequately functional?
19:09:23 <itidus20> well... i have a bad sleeping pattern
19:09:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:09:44 <cheater_> indeed, that can have to do with low lambdan levels
19:10:00 <cheater_> have you noticed other people acting imperative around you?
19:10:15 <itidus20> yeah people are full of requests and demands
19:10:55 <cheater_> that's exactly what i'm talking about.
19:11:08 <itidus20> we have established quite a rapport
19:11:24 <cheater_> would you like to live a life without side-effects, where everything is a functor?
19:11:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:12:45 <cheater_> join the Haskell Religion. You start out in the () typeclass, but soon you'll be able to perform monadic actions!
19:13:12 <itidus20> im too passive. its not cheaters fault
19:13:33 <monqy> cheater killed me and that is his fault
19:13:37 <elliott> cheater is cheater's fault though
19:13:46 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = a -> b
19:13:59 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => m b -> [m (b -> b)] -> m b
19:14:04 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:14:26 <itidus20> cheater_: i downloaded hugs and an ebook.. but i got sidetracked
19:14:34 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:14:45 <itidus20> and the side of the track has much less friction than the gravel
19:15:58 <monqy> does it have a name
19:16:25 <HackEgo> 547) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, the origin of suffering is desire for e-book readers.
19:16:29 <itidus20> Yet Another Haskell Tutorial by Hal Daume III
19:17:04 <itidus20> im not a mathematician. this book is actually up my alley
19:17:13 <elliott> LYAH is about ten times simpler than YAHT.
19:17:26 <CakeProphet> cheater_: I think you offended Phantom_Hoover's religious beliefs.
19:17:39 <elliott> Download the Haskell Platform, read Learn You a Haskell, praise the Lord.
19:17:48 <CakeProphet> well, you offended /him/, not his beliefs. That would be strange.
19:20:41 <cheater_> elliott, your Lambdan levels must be really high today.
19:22:09 <itidus20> so.. in my head I am thinking "haskell is representative of functional languages. c++ is representative of imperative languages. functional and imperative are specializations of programming languages."
19:22:21 <elliott> C++ is not representative of imperative languages.
19:23:00 <Taneb> Visual Basic .NET?
19:23:08 <itidus20> is the word representative the wrong one? :D
19:23:16 <monqy> don't call things representative of things
19:23:19 <elliott> Maybe a modern-ish (but non-OO) Pascal. It's really hard to say because "imperative" is not really a category.
19:23:23 <elliott> There is no single representative example.
19:23:35 <itidus20> is representativeness a fallacy?
19:23:50 <cheater_> itidus20, i'd say python is a good imperative language with functional paradigms
19:24:18 <elliott> Oh, so there is at least one channel with sense in this world.
19:24:45 <cheater_> j/k, not banned. but i don't give much crap about that place
19:25:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you do a harsh but necessary duty.
19:25:04 <pikhq_> "Imperative" is a far too broad category to have any really representative example...
19:25:12 <itidus20> so.. in my head I am thinking "haskell is an example of functional languages. pascal is an example of imperative languages. functional and imperative are specializations of programming languages."
19:25:24 <pikhq_> And a better description of coding style than language, anyways.
19:25:44 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: the trouble was with the word _representative of_
19:26:15 <cheater_> representative\ of could be a word
19:26:19 <NihilistDandy> It's just not representative of "imperative programming"
19:26:38 <itidus20> cheater_: i dunno why i did that..
19:27:07 <cheater_> itidus20, i'd say you're asking whether functional and imperative paradigms are compatible
19:27:10 <pikhq_> If "imperative" is intended to be a descriptor of language *anyways*, it'd really only mean "strict evaluation", IME...
19:27:41 <itidus20> cheater_: i was stating in a long winded way that i see them as children of a common parent, namely "programming languages"
19:27:43 <pikhq_> Which is so utterly inclusive as to be meaningless.
19:28:06 <NihilistDandy> I guess procedural might be better, but it's still a wide category
19:28:19 <cheater_> itidus20, i think you mean subsets rather than children in a graph
19:28:24 <cheater_> and those subsets are reral fuzzy
19:28:38 <cheater_> there's no clear distinction, like in a graph, of a language being either the one or the other
19:28:52 <CakeProphet> I almost think of imperative and procedural to be close to synonyms, with some mild differences but with considerable overlap.
19:28:55 <zzo38> Pascal could describe imperative, or, maybe even BASIC. Would BASIC do?
19:29:20 <CakeProphet> basic is centered on sequential execution of commands
19:29:29 <pikhq_> It's a friggin' coding style. You can do imperative code in Haskell. You can also do functional code in assembly.
19:29:34 <zzo38> BASIC might do, I think so
19:29:48 <pikhq_> (I will question your sanity for functional assembly, though)
19:30:24 <Deewiant> You can do functional code in assembly better than in C, since at least you can guarantee TCO in assembly
19:30:25 <NihilistDandy> cheater_: I'd like to point out that those lyrics make perfect sense :P
19:30:25 <cheater_> NihilistDandy, i like to differentiate between "declarative" and "constructive"
19:30:36 <CakeProphet> languages tend to match coding styles to a degree. There are coding styles they are comfortable with and those they are not.
19:30:41 <cheater_> NihilistDandy, that's totally dachgeschoss of you
19:31:32 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: Which still leaves functional vs. imperative as a pretty pitiful dichotomy.
19:31:41 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:31:53 <CakeProphet> it's not really a dichotomy. Just.. two animals in a barn.
19:32:00 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
19:32:24 <cheater_> like a two-headed horse sorta.
19:32:32 <itidus20> i tried to traverse the graph and i failed
19:32:39 <pikhq_> After all, functional code is going to come about fairly naturally from most any language with TCO, closures, and garbage collection, and imperative code is utterly natural in anything with side effects.
19:33:00 <CakeProphet> functional code in Python is not very natural feeling.
19:33:11 <pikhq_> Python has neither TCO nor garbage collection.
19:33:26 <pikhq_> And its lambda feature is, ah, limiting.
19:33:40 <pikhq_> Tail-call optimisation.
19:34:44 <pikhq_> No, it has reference counting and some hacks to make circular references not leak memory.
19:35:01 <CakeProphet> does that not count as automatic memory management?
19:35:21 <pikhq_> Well. It does, but that's not garbage collection. :P
19:35:58 <pikhq_> Probably should've said "automatic memory management", though.
19:36:21 <fizzie> It is also possible to write a Python function decorator that does TCO (well, to self-calls, anyway) by stack inspection, and exception throw/catch to fake a tail call. Assuming you have a barf bag, anyway. http://code.activestate.com/recipes/474088-tail-call-optimization-decorator/
19:36:45 <CakeProphet> maybe there's something specific about the definition of garbage collection that makes it different from automatic memory management that I haven't really paid attention to.
19:36:53 <pikhq_> fizzie: It is also possible to write a C function that JITs Lisp and hands you a function pointer for it.
19:37:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:38:37 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: Automatic memory management refers to any memory management that does not require manual handling of details. Garbage collection refers to one of a number of techniques that scan the heap for unused memory that can be reclaimed.
19:39:05 <CakeProphet> I thought there was a "reference counting garbage collection" technique?
19:40:02 <pikhq_> No. Reference counting never scans the heap. Reference counting simply frees an allocation when the reference count for an allocation drops to 0.
19:40:24 <elliott> reference counting is a kind of garbage collection, really
19:40:35 <elliott> region inference is an example of a non-GC automatic memory management type
19:41:44 <pikhq_> "Never freeing" is also an example of a non-GC automatic memory management type (admittedly, a pathological case).
19:41:48 <CakeProphet> I mean, I can import gc in Python, which stands for garbage collector
19:42:04 <elliott> pikhq_: That's the memory management mandated by the Scheme standard.
19:42:27 <pikhq_> elliott: Leaving garbage collection as nothing more than an optimisation?
19:42:41 <elliott> pikhq_: A specifically-allowed one, yes.
19:42:52 <elliott> (Well, any other management strategy is allowed, so long as it is never visible.)
19:42:54 <oerjan> elliott: wait, does that mean scheme cannot have finalizers? :P
19:43:28 <pikhq_> elliott: Not that surprising, really.
19:43:36 <pikhq_> That's an implementation detail, after all.
19:44:05 <elliott> oerjan: well, any implementation can do what it wants
19:44:14 <elliott> oerjan: RnRS only defines behaviour on RnRS programs :P
19:44:21 <cheater_> elliott: if i'm my own fault, does that mean i'm the embodiment of recursion
19:44:34 <oerjan> good garbage collection in the style of ghc has the advantage that it only touches live objects, which is good for idiomatic haskell where most values die quickly
19:44:45 <elliott> oerjan: "in the style of GHC"
19:44:45 <oerjan> reference counting is almost the opposite to that
19:45:54 <CakeProphet> in my ecosystem-based language garbage collection will occur in the form of natural disasters.
19:46:08 <oerjan> elliott: naturally ghc is my personal base point :P
19:46:16 <CakeProphet> you can have them strike randomly or on command.
19:46:49 <oerjan> "Collection asteroid coming up"
19:47:42 <itidus20> So the reason I brought up that topic before was that stage 2 of the plan was to say, is it better to understand an abstract generalization by studying a sample of it's specializations, or by studying it without knowledge of it's specializations.
19:48:10 <NihilistDandy> Study the abstraction and make up your own special cases
19:48:27 <CakeProphet> since all of the memory is in use by the program always, the best way to prevent memory leaks is to have occasional ecosystem collapse.
19:48:46 <CakeProphet> though I can't say it will help with the determinism of your program.
19:48:57 <cheater_> NihilistDandy, die untermieter staren die waende an?
19:49:09 <monqy> who cares about determinism
19:49:34 <itidus20> to clarify further, ^of it's implemented specializations and the specializations used in practice.. these can be traditional or standardized or conventions
19:50:36 <CakeProphet> for example a rain storm might kill out some of the more fragile cold-blooded creatures.
19:50:37 <itidus20> For any useful (not a toy) abstract generalization...(is abstract generalization a tautology?) should i just say abstraction?
19:50:59 <itidus20> The specialization space is unreasonably large
19:52:00 <itidus20> the potential specializations of the abstraction Animal
19:52:14 <itidus20> so instead we focus on the existing animals
19:52:15 <oerjan> itidus20: e.g. group theory (from mathematics) would be rather useless unless you did _both_
19:52:24 <monqy> abstraction animal what
19:52:37 <itidus20> or we blend parts.. like anthropomorphizing
19:52:45 <itidus20> combining the human animal with another animal
19:53:34 <CakeProphet> itidus20: are you sure you know what you're saying right now?
19:53:39 <oerjan> in fact it may be the first example math students get of an abstraction investigated in general without (just) looking at specific examples
19:53:50 <itidus20> monqy: as in, dog, cat, fish, etc are all specializations of the abstraction animal
19:53:55 <monqy> CakeProphet: I have a feeling he doesn't
19:54:15 <CakeProphet> I could almost imagine this being the topic of a literature or creative writing paper.
19:54:37 <Gregor> elliott: I don't suppose you ever found a virtual keyboard that isn't terrible?
19:55:00 <elliott> Gregor: I solved my problem by adding jobs in batches of 9 or 99
19:55:10 <elliott> Or one, which conveniently is what's chosen if you just press enter
19:55:13 <itidus20> Talking about animals like this is very darwinian of me.
19:55:21 <elliott> Gregor: So, no, but please let me know if you find one.
19:55:37 <elliott> Gregor: You should just write one, it'd be like three hundred lines of C. :p
19:55:46 <elliott> AS LONG AS IT WORKS AT A LOW ENOUGH LEVEL FOR SDL TO LIKE IT
19:56:18 <CakeProphet> an abstraction is a way to condense information into a single concept.
19:57:30 <monqy> itidus20: what is it you want, again?
19:58:13 <itidus20> ok what if I said I see a function as an abstraction of a number set
19:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> We'd rip you apart because many of us know what functions and sets actually are.
19:58:43 <itidus20> "5" is a specialization of the fibonnacci function
19:58:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:59:12 <zzo38> Gregor: Can you fix the log program so that QUIT messages are included in the channel raw logs? It would help, if using it to search using AWK or whatever. I think I know why the QUIT messages are not included but I also think it ought to be corrected anyways. Do you know about this?
19:59:34 <CakeProphet> or rather, a function is an abstraction, but not necessarily of a set.
19:59:35 <Taneb> ais523, you are mayor of the #esoteric-minecraft dwarf fortress fortress
19:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, you're talking about the image of the function, I think.
19:59:58 <ais523> does this mean I'll die horribly after making too many awkward demands?
20:00:09 <Taneb> Actually, your demands have been pretty good
20:00:14 <Taneb> Low boots and copper
20:00:36 <elliott> ais523: no, that's the previous mayer.
20:00:46 <CakeProphet> So when we're talking about programming languages, a function is an abstraction of the algorithm that defines it. Instead of rewriting the algorithm we just use the name and plug in the inputs.
20:01:48 <itidus20> my not knowing functional languages is limiting me
20:02:09 <itidus20> and so i can't actually process why i am wrong
20:02:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Your essential problem is that you're trying to derive the world from scratch.
20:02:50 <Taneb> Stephen Hawking did it
20:02:58 <Taneb> But he's Stephen Hawking
20:03:14 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: yes, it was one of way of describing functions as an abstraction. There is more than one.
20:03:24 <zzo38> Does "ddate" program allow switching between Julian and Gregorian mode? In my opinion, the author of Principia Discordia probably intended Gregorian although the literal reading suggests Julian. What is your opinion?
20:03:44 <itidus20> i see abstraction as one of the most powerful ideas of all
20:04:08 <Taneb> Because he was interested in... astrophysics
20:04:42 <pikhq_> Stephen Hawking stands on the shoulders of giants.
20:04:50 <itidus20> is the problem that i named it abstraction?
20:05:35 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
20:05:36 <itidus20> i don't like it when some group proclaims jurisdiction over everything
20:05:49 <itidus20> its bad.. its like a conceptual black hole
20:05:55 <ais523> zzo38: I think most programmers forget about the problem altogether
20:05:59 <oerjan> pikhq_: you mean sits.
20:05:59 <itidus20> perhaps that is what i am doing to this word abstraction
20:06:12 <pikhq_> oerjan: Well, okay. He used to stand there but no longer does.
20:06:30 <Taneb> Yeah, I get your point
20:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you really think he worked out cosmology by himself?
20:06:51 <Taneb> I think I was using a completely different meaning of from scratch
20:07:04 <itidus20> there is a need for each group to not get too big for it's boots
20:07:12 <pikhq_> Taneb: Yes, the one that doesn't mean "from nothing", apparently.
20:07:27 <Taneb> He mathematically demonstrated that it is possible for a universe to be created out of nothing
20:07:34 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: A_5 is pretty badass
20:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus20> i don't like it when some group proclaims jurisdiction over everything
20:07:50 <Taneb> pikhq_: pretty sure he did
20:07:58 <oerjan> smallest simple noncommutative group
20:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, isn't it the rotation group of the icosahedron and dodecahedron too?
20:08:14 <itidus20> im saying everything is a specialization of something else
20:08:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't know about that
20:08:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I tried to do it when I learnt the orbit-stabiliser thing but I failed.
20:08:57 <monqy> itidus20: and turtles all the way down?
20:08:59 <CakeProphet> category theory is a specialization of mathematics. :)
20:08:59 <itidus20> abstractions and categories sound similar
20:09:01 <zzo38> ais523: Do you understand my question though?
20:09:15 <monqy> itidus20: do you even know what category theory is
20:09:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> category theory is a specialization of mathematics. :)
20:09:54 <itidus20> my brother showed me an episode of "alphas" before.. im the guy who doesn't have a clue what is going on
20:10:13 <ais523> category theory is more general than a mere field!
20:10:20 <CakeProphet> NihilistDandy: yeah, okay, category theory defines everything in mathematics ever. Hasn't that been said about a lot of different fields of mathematics?
20:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well yes, there is the whole everything is a category issue.
20:10:36 <NihilistDandy> CakeProphet: Sure it has, but category theory also defines them
20:10:39 <elliott> Can we agree on "general abstract nonsense"?
20:10:56 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not quite everything
20:11:08 <ais523> I found something that wasn't in my PhD, and had to justify to my supervisor why it wasn't
20:11:12 <itidus20> we have the capacity for conflict because conflict is healthy... we are not wired to agree on everything
20:11:17 <ais523> and even then, it probably could have been made into a category with a few more definitions
20:11:34 <elliott> ais523: I like how category theory basically reverses the burden of proof :-D
20:11:52 <oerjan> elliott: no, but we might define a natural equivalence with general abstract nonsense
20:12:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, but it does in conversation.
20:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and anyway negative statements aren't assumed by the burden of proof.
20:13:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: STOP RUINING MY JOKE
20:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, did you actually say "it isn't a category" in the paper?
20:13:49 <Taneb> That's uncategorically incorrect
20:13:53 <elliott> "we'd get burned at the stake!"
20:13:57 <ais523> we did have to own up when asked about it at the conference
20:13:59 <itidus20> from wiki "Category theory is an area of study in mathematics that examines in an abstract way the properties of particular mathematical concepts, by formalising them as collections of objects and arrows" AS GRAPHS
20:14:01 * oerjan maps elliott's joke onto a terminal element
20:14:02 <ais523> but by then, it was already too late to reject the paper
20:14:02 <CakeProphet> CakeProphet calculus: $ is the Pope, & is a grave, ^ is a mighty axe. The Pope must die.
20:14:12 <ais523> itidus20: a graph is a special case of a category
20:14:13 <itidus20> not collections of objects and arrows... the word for such a collection is a graph
20:14:17 <elliott> itidus20: No... not as graphs.
20:14:19 <ais523> but then, more or less everything is a special case of a category
20:14:34 <CakeProphet> everything is a special case of a dead Pope!
20:14:35 <pikhq_> ais523: Except maybe colorless green dreams.
20:14:37 <ais523> for instance, a group expressed as a category has only one object, and all the elements of the group correspond to arrows
20:14:46 <itidus20> they borrowed their notation from graphs clearly
20:14:47 <elliott> itidus20: Try not to think you're smarter than whoever wrote the Wikipedia on a subject minutes after you're introduced to you.
20:14:48 <ais523> that doesn't act much like a graph
20:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It's stupid to say what defines what in the first place.
20:15:20 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: I define everything.
20:15:22 <Taneb> A dictionary contains definitions of words
20:15:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Categories and graphs just happen to have easily-linked definitions.
20:15:33 <Taneb> They aqre defined, for example, by Oxford University Press
20:15:36 <pikhq_> Ergo, I shall define "stupid" to mean "especially astute and wise".
20:15:49 <CakeProphet> except when the Pope dies you know it's legit...
20:16:12 <itidus20> anyway, notational systems are a function of the euclidean plane
20:16:22 <elliott> `addquote <itidus20> anyway, notational systems are a function of the euclidean plane
20:16:23 <HackEgo> 573) <itidus20> anyway, notational systems are a function of the euclidean plane
20:16:42 <pikhq_> NihilistDandy: Indeed.
20:17:10 <itidus20> nearly every written language is made of a small set of curves
20:17:17 <itidus20> and drawings are called line drawings
20:17:45 <CakeProphet> the euclidean plane is a function of the pilot's hands.
20:18:02 <Taneb> The pilot's hands are a subset of the pilot
20:18:14 <pikhq_> itidus20: I can write on non-Euclidean geometries just fine.
20:18:52 <zzo38> On the weekend I had some dream about pokemon, but I don't remember anything else about it. Maybe that is all it is?
20:19:24 <itidus20> so all notations are basically about lines
20:19:42 <itidus20> lines forming glyphs, lines forming polygons
20:19:55 <CakeProphet> itidus20: if you cannot kill the pope with it, then you haven't really rigorously defined anything.
20:20:07 <Taneb> I'm a collection of irregular and regular polyhedra
20:20:38 <itidus20> notations for the most part can be represented on paper or on a monitor
20:21:01 <NihilistDandy> I'm a four dimensional solid inhabiting three dimensional space
20:21:04 <zzo38> Kill the pope with it??
20:21:13 <monqy> Kill the pope with it..
20:21:49 <CakeProphet> the mighty axe is surely the best way to kill...
20:22:16 <Taneb> But sometimes the subtlety of poison is what is needed
20:22:24 <itidus20> ok so.. what i'll try to do is stop talking for a bit
20:22:27 <NihilistDandy> CakeProphet: But can you prove your axe's mightiness rigorously?
20:22:47 <itidus20> because the more i don't understand the topic in here, the more relevant it is likely to be.. difficult as that is for me to accept
20:23:08 <itidus20> it is a natural instinct to try to lower the topic to my level
20:24:07 <CakeProphet> CakeProphet calculus is a highly advanced level on the mathematical plane.
20:24:20 <CakeProphet> perhaps you should learn about it sometime.
20:24:42 <CakeProphet> but knowing ledges is a useful way to avoid falling off of them.
20:24:44 <Taneb> Knowledge is lege?
20:24:52 <monqy> power is a specification of knowledge
20:26:31 <monqy> this is problematic
20:27:10 <CakeProphet> itidus20: you should learn how to play an instrument before you attempt to write a concerto.
20:27:37 <Taneb> I've got a friend who is awful at maths
20:27:44 <Taneb> So I tried to teach him Haskell
20:27:46 <itidus20> example: 2/3(2x -5 ) = 2/3(8x - 3)
20:29:13 <olsner> but how can you play an instrument if you haven't even written a concerto to play on it?
20:29:18 <Taneb> God, I'm out of practice
20:29:27 <CakeProphet> Taneb: yeah it took me way to long to work that one.
20:29:37 <Taneb> I blame summer holidays.
20:29:48 <Taneb> I actually began to hallucinate in my last maths exam
20:29:58 <itidus20> for me.. i would have to slowly work through it
20:30:04 <Taneb> Numbers would be wrong, twos would be fives
20:30:07 <itidus20> and i would make a mistake anyway
20:30:30 <itidus20> the idea of doing algebra in my head is unthinkable for me
20:30:37 <CakeProphet> I occasionally hallucinate when I'm going to sleep or waking up.
20:30:50 <elliott> who does anything in their head
20:30:51 <monqy> sometimes I hallucinate while I'm sleeping
20:30:57 <elliott> CakeProphet: that's not uncommon.
20:31:11 <HackEgo> 428) <fizzie> You make a fist, shake it at the sky, and shout "why, GNU, why?!" -- that is the standard reportig practice. \ 520) <NihilistDandy> The Russian's emblem was the hammer and sickle, not the fist and other fist
20:31:12 <elliott> Actually you hallucinate every time you go to sleep or wake up.
20:31:48 <monqy> what did it feel like
20:31:51 <monqy> I've never felt a ghost
20:32:21 <CakeProphet> I wasn't paralyzed though. I got out of bed, because I thought someone was standing outside of my bedroom door, which was out of view.
20:32:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:32:40 <CakeProphet> and then I felt the presence move into my room, through me, and onto the bed next to me. made my heart jump.
20:32:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of bromide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:33:05 <CakeProphet> er, I sat up in bed, actually. I didn't get out.
20:33:22 <itidus20> is a category theory diagram an approximation of neural structures?
20:33:41 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:33:50 <elliott> itidus20: you should make friends with fungot
20:33:50 <fungot> elliott: but that jackass won't shut up and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or the bottom of the letter is a series of really coy riddles about it and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we
20:34:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:34:15 <olsner> what's up with the periodic matrices of elements?
20:34:22 <elliott> fizzie: That wasn't Homestuck.
20:34:25 <fungot> elliott: you and the pogo hammer.
20:34:29 <itidus20> well.. a neuron is to a node and an object, as a dendrite is to a morphism and an edge
20:34:30 <elliott> Although I guess it's a fungot bug so fizzie too.
20:34:36 <olsner> fungot: unlock the bromide
20:34:36 <fungot> olsner: are you on fire yet or what
20:35:01 <fungot> CakeProphet: a little later... have i mentioned nanna to you, did i?
20:35:16 <Taneb> Do you think it would be possible to rig fungot up to the logs?
20:35:17 <fungot> Taneb: have a look. which of course. now it is my turn to the back inside cover, but it seems the john in the head of your smaller hammer from your deck is really dwindling now. maybe it would be best not to be near it
20:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003752
20:35:24 <CakeProphet> fungot: you want to talk dirty about your grandmother?
20:35:24 <fungot> CakeProphet: the modus recognizes the drawing, but there it is, in case he doesn't want you to be my next wild presumption. ashes. usually these matches his, that is a smart mouth you have. it plays a role in the outcome of the kids' game session.
20:35:32 <ais523> Taneb: it already has been, ^style irc
20:35:43 <ais523> although that's the logs of multiple channels, not just #esoteric
20:35:43 <elliott> Taneb: That's how it primarily talks.
20:36:12 <itidus20> monqy, cake: im comparing it with neurons precisely because of how it's creepy to do so
20:36:49 <CakeProphet> itidus20: did you know that I am the queen of France?
20:37:03 <itidus20> does france even have a monarchy?
20:37:15 <pikhq_> itidus20: No, but its leader is a monarch.
20:37:19 <oerjan> so many similarities: CakeProphet doesn't have a beard, and there is no evidence he exists.
20:37:55 <monqy> im the empouress of americas
20:37:58 <pikhq_> (the ruler of France is also Co-Prince of Andorra.)
20:38:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I didn't know that France had a monarchy.
20:38:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But I'm not into pop culture.
20:38:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (OK I didn't know it didn't have one either.)
20:38:34 <elliott> (I swapped that knowledge out to Wikipedia for when I need it, which will be never.)
20:38:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well yeah, I know THAT part.
20:38:58 <Phantom_Hoover> But anyway, I'm more referring to itidus' general lack of knowledge.
20:38:58 <elliott> Maybe they had a monarchy yesterday
20:39:04 <elliott> HOW COULD I POSSIBLY KEEP TRACK
20:39:09 <olsner> who cares what they had, have or don't have
20:39:21 <monqy> what will they have
20:39:23 <elliott> In conclusion: fuck the French.
20:39:24 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> They had that revolution <-- they've had monarchy since that happened, mind you
20:39:32 <elliott> itidus20: but yeah um did you not learn any elementary algebra.
20:39:36 <olsner> pretty sure they have baguettes
20:40:29 <olsner> croisettes and baguants
20:40:32 <itidus20> when i approach algebra i find i can't absorb the rules
20:40:35 <Taneb> Except croissants are actually... Hungarian? originally
20:40:52 <monqy> NihilistDandy: I have a suspicion he doesn't
20:41:19 <olsner> french baguettes originated in france, obviously
20:41:24 <elliott> itidus20: s/algebra/elementary algebra/.
20:41:28 <elliott> This has nothing to do with abstract algebra.
20:42:06 <Taneb> If x = 2, what is x+2, itidus20?
20:42:07 <monqy> french fries, freedom fries
20:42:09 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:42:15 <Taneb> Which were originally Belgia
20:42:29 <oerjan> speaking of elementary algebra like it were abstract algebra is like someone confusing a danish hill with mount everest
20:42:30 <monqy> america land of the bad names for things
20:42:41 <Taneb> If x-4 =5, what is x?
20:42:54 <olsner> freedom fries aka invade-some-desert fries?
20:43:09 <Taneb> See, you're not that bad
20:43:17 <monqy> freedom fries aka fuck the french fries
20:43:33 * oerjan watches itidus20's head explode
20:43:48 <Taneb> (get x on its own)
20:43:51 <elliott> monqy: that sounds,,,,, palnfaiful,
20:44:07 <oerjan> fuck the french, but be sure to make them shower first
20:44:18 <monqy> itidus20: simplify, please
20:45:18 <monqy> if x is apples, and you have two apples, and you take one away, how many apples do you have........
20:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, I'm not going to confirm the answer, but monqy just ruined it THANKS MONQY
20:46:39 <elliott> CakeProphet: 5! = an excited 5
20:46:55 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: the problem for me in that situation was uhh..
20:47:03 <CakeProphet> itidus20: use the quadratic equation to solve 23x^2 + 13x + 4
20:47:09 <oerjan> "The Iranian confectioner's union designated "Roses of the Prophet Muhammad" as the new name for Danish pastries made in the country as of 15 February 2006, although compliance with the proposed name in bakeries was mixed and short-lived."
20:47:29 <oerjan> also cheese on danishes, are you crazy?
20:47:53 <pikhq_> oerjan: If they draw Muhammed on them, I approve.
20:48:00 <CakeProphet> oerjan: Danish people make a delicious treat when topped with a little cheese.
20:48:50 <Taneb> So, simplify x=2y-9-y?
20:48:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: s/refl_equal/eq_refl/.
20:48:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And if you're going to do that then: reflexivity. Qed.
20:49:01 <oerjan> pikhq_: i'd imagine that's not the idea
20:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Inductive eq (A : Type) (x : A) : A -> Prop := refl_equal : x = x
20:49:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yep. Notation refl_equal := eq_refl (only parsing).
20:49:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yep. Notation refl_equal := eq_refl (only parsing).
20:49:14 <pikhq_> Also, mmmm cheese danish.
20:49:22 <elliott> Inductive eq (A:Type) (x:A) : A -> Prop :=
20:49:30 <elliott> Source: http://www.lix.polytechnique.fr/coq/stdlib/Coq.Init.Logic.html.
20:49:39 <Taneb> I've never seen a danish. The closest to a danish I've ever seen was Scooby Doo.
20:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so your correction was complete crap because both are perfectly correct?
20:50:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I marked them as corrections where?
20:50:14 <pikhq_> NihilistDandy: Well, not just cream cheese. It's more like what's in a cheesecake, i.e. a cream cheese based filling.
20:50:16 <elliott> I would use s/// to make someone's programming style better, too.
20:51:42 <oerjan> > 5 == (5 + pi - pi :: CReal)
20:51:55 <itidus20> ok the trouble is when i am doing an elementary algebra equation which is unfamiliar, my attention becomes focused on trying to conform to the rules without knowing what they are
20:52:15 <NihilistDandy> But I can't think of how to work in "There, diagonally" in a sufficiently funny way
20:52:36 <elliott> oerjan: CReal isn't CReal, is it
20:52:43 <lambdabot> 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841972
20:52:47 <elliott> oerjan: I mean it's not really infinite-precision is it?
20:52:49 <oerjan> elliott: i'm surprised it halted on the second one
20:52:58 <NihilistDandy> "I proved that the reals are uncountably infinite. Where? There, diagonally. Pretty sneaky, sis."
20:53:02 <oerjan> elliott: well _output_ is a different thing...
20:53:06 <elliott> oerjan: yes me too, which is why I don't think it is the standard CReal
20:53:14 <oerjan> elliott: maybe it just cheats on ==
20:53:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Number.CReal.CReal'
20:53:35 <itidus20> like i don't normally know how to break down a fraction.. the book i was looking at suggested that: 2/3(x) = 2(x)/3 ... this kind of thing isn't intuitive to me
20:53:36 <elliott> > (9/900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000) == 0
20:53:39 <elliott> > (9/900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000) == (0 :: CReal)
20:53:51 <elliott> > (9/900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 :: CReal)
20:54:04 <elliott> > (9/900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 :: CReal) * 900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
20:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott working with numbers is the very height of comedy.
20:54:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Stop mocking me for being disabled.
20:54:49 <NihilistDandy> Well, that's true in the sense that (2/3)x = (2x/3)
20:55:18 <itidus20> dandy: yup but i don't know such facts
20:55:29 <itidus20> that is what i mean by i don't know elementary algebra
20:55:42 <elliott> itidus20: x=m/n for some m and n
20:56:09 <monqy> learn abstract algebra and it will make so much more sense????
20:56:09 <elliott> 2/3 * m/n = (2*m/n)/3 blah blah blah
20:56:15 <elliott> monqy: this isn't even abstract algebra
20:56:21 <elliott> monqy: this is "reducing the division rule for rationals"
20:56:28 <elliott> it is literally alpha replacement
20:57:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I was... trying to make it easy for itidus20 to see why it's true, but then I gave up.
20:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and therefore failed to get across that it's true for all numbers, not just rationals.
20:57:36 <monqy> maybe itidus21 will get it.....
20:57:56 <oerjan> i recall from when i was little this nice diagonal diagram for x/y = w/z, where you can move any term across to the opposite diagonal
20:58:34 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and therefore failed to get across that it's true for all numbers, not just rationals.
20:58:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: SORRY but I don't ACCEPT the existence of the REALS
20:59:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But seriously, it still works out if you just remove the integral restriction on m and n, I think.
20:59:05 <monqy> reals just arent real sorry
20:59:12 <itidus20> so basically (a/b)c means: MUL c,a; DIV c,b; (not sure if operands in the right order)
20:59:16 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Quite a… cutting… remark YEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHHH
20:59:46 <Taneb> And integers are complex
20:59:51 <elliott> itidus20: do you know what the rationals are
20:59:55 <itidus20> monqy: if i was to express it as assembly language
21:00:08 * oerjan notes how elliott deftly continued with a new "<lies>" block
21:00:50 <NihilistDandy> You'd have to go back in the logs to determine the real truth value
21:00:54 <oerjan> lies all the way down?
21:01:06 <itidus20> rationals.. yes my book told me that rationals are either repeating or terminating
21:01:09 <elliott> oerjan: That's my schtick, ever since I-forget-when I reopened a tag just in caes
21:01:22 <Taneb> The big book of itidus20
21:01:40 <Taneb> Magnus Liber Itidi XX
21:01:46 <itidus20> its a humble book called the bedside book of algebra
21:01:46 <NihilistDandy> And if you think about it, they're really all repeating
21:01:51 <olsner> oh, good idea! <lies> it is then
21:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, did you just come here to comprehensively out-Sgeo Sgeo?
21:02:21 <Taneb> I'm going to try something
21:02:26 <olsner> NihilistDandy: ... or is it?
21:02:34 <Taneb> <statement type="clever">
21:02:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: excuse me itidus20 is like ten times as awesome as Sgeo.
21:03:05 <monqy> supercomprehensively outsgeoed
21:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, because he's so Sgeo he comes around the other side?
21:03:14 <oerjan> <elliott> itidus20: your Book <-- itidus20 somehow has got hold of erdős's Book, but sadly he understands not a word of it
21:03:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That... may be so.
21:03:46 <itidus20> no its actually called "the bedside book of algebra" ... :-"
21:04:16 <itidus20> but the elementary algebra examples are able to break me.. over little details
21:04:24 <oerjan> itidus20: are you sure? try to look for a page starting something like "Proof that P = NP" or "Proof that P != NP"
21:04:41 <Taneb> The Bedside Book of Algebra By Paul Erdős and Kevin Bacon?
21:05:00 <itidus20> oerjan: i do know that theres $1,000,000 on the table for whoever can prove it
21:05:20 <itidus20> however, surely that is a pittance compared to the value of the actual act
21:05:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: Love's Labours Won
21:05:43 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: It's where God keeps all the proofs
21:05:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the hypothetical book that contains the most elegant proof of every mathematical theorem
21:05:56 <itidus20> they're just hoping some indian with a family to feed gives the answer to them
21:06:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, if this is going to become a Doctor Who reference don't bother.
21:06:26 <Taneb> No, I was thinking of all the missing books I could
21:06:48 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what's Erdos' book?
21:06:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the one with all the nice porofs
21:07:04 <NihilistDandy> @where+ horror http://jpg.artige.no/store/9871.jpg
21:07:06 <elliott> oerjan: um of every theorem? I don't recall him saying that, I HAVE READ HIS WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE _SEVERAL_ TIMES
21:07:09 <itidus20> its one of the last books i bought before officially having no more money
21:07:40 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Can I set that as my desktop background, tiled.
21:07:47 <elliott> Can GNOME display animated gifs as the background and if not, why not.
21:08:05 <elliott> Actually zooming in tells me that stretching it may be better.
21:08:13 <itidus20> noone "really" wants an animated desktop
21:08:26 <elliott> In the sense that I don't relaly
21:08:27 <Taneb> I very rarely actually look at my desktop
21:08:30 <elliott> But I do for, like, whole seconds
21:08:45 <elliott> Taneb: Nobody does, that's why wallpapers are stupid and people who care about wallpapers are stupid.
21:08:59 <monqy> my background is just black
21:09:06 <elliott> AND IF MY FRIEND WHO CARES ABOUT WALLPAPERS IS READING THIS, YOU'RE TSUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:09:17 <elliott> monqy: mine is the default ubuntu wallpaper (im creative)
21:09:21 <NihilistDandy> elliott: I have a very nice wallpaper with a Gagarin quote on it
21:09:54 <elliott> Gagarin, more like GagarBIN.
21:09:58 <elliott> Because he should be put into the BIN.
21:10:30 <itidus20> i have a range of math books... some with actual substance.. but to elementary algebra
21:10:35 -!- myndzi has joined.
21:10:38 <elliott> When was the last time someone said God was literally in space
21:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> This has been reported as a remark Gagarin made while in orbit aboard Vostok 1, but there is no indication of it in the official transcripts of his communications. It is similar to the above statements he reportedly made after his return to earth, which might have given rise to this account.
21:10:42 <Taneb> I would have the default Ubuntu desktop wallpaper
21:10:49 <elliott> Let us know if you see God up there
21:10:52 <elliott> Just sorta hoverin' all big like
21:11:00 <elliott> Damage our position on that matter a bit
21:11:02 <Taneb> I am temporarily using Windows due to reasons I don't fully understand
21:11:23 <itidus20> one trouble i get is if i see something like: x / 5 = 2x + 3
21:11:29 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: The wallpaper doesn't say he said it in space.
21:11:42 <elliott> Uttered during the launch of Vostok 1 (12 April 1961); quoted by Sergey Viktorovich Novikov, in Большая историческая энциклопедия [The Greater Historical Encyclopedia] (2003) by Olma Media Group, p, 943
21:11:42 <elliott> Variant translations: Let's ride!
21:11:45 <elliott> INSPIRING WORDS FROM AN INSPIRING MAN
21:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> NihilistDandy, it doesn't say he didn't say it in space.
21:12:16 <elliott> I am a friend, comrades, a friend!
21:12:17 <elliott> First words upon returning to earth, to a woman and a girl near where his capsule landed (12 April 1961) The woman asked: "Can it be that you have come from outer space?" to which Gagarin replied: "As a matter of fact, I have!" As quoted in The Air Up There : More Great Quotations on Flight (2003) by Dave English, p. 118
21:12:24 <elliott> Were they just like two random people
21:13:04 <elliott> All astronauts should land in random places specifically chosen to be populated but only by people who have no idea there's a space mission going on.
21:13:13 <elliott> I am disappointed in NASA for not arranging this
21:13:18 <NihilistDandy> "GOOD MORNING STALINSHINE, THE VACUUM OF SPACE SAYS HELLO"
21:13:24 <itidus20> One trouble I get is if I see something like: x / 5 = 2x + 3 Do I say x = 2x + 3(5) OR x = (2x + 3)5
21:13:33 <itidus20> im guessing its the latter though
21:13:40 <pikhq_> elliott: The US would do well for that.
21:14:01 <elliott> When they saw me in my space suit and the parachute dragging alongside as I walked, they started to back away in fear. I told them, don't be afraid, I am a Soviet like you, who has descended from space and I must find a telephone to call Moscow!
21:14:02 <elliott> Recalling his meeting with workers in a field, upon his landing, as quoted in "Life on Mars?" by Jesse Skinner in Toro magazine (14 October 2008)
21:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, I'm just going to stop you before you start bitching
21:14:10 <elliott> this is the best landing ever.
21:14:22 <elliott> Nobody said anything that cool after landing to the moon.
21:14:33 <elliott> Nobody asked for a telephone to call Moscow after landing on the moon.
21:14:43 <elliott> Landing on the moon: less cool than landing on Earth.
21:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "Hey guys it's me I landed and I'll just stay with these guys until you get here.
21:17:28 <itidus20> monqy: i was fairly sure but i know i need to be certain
21:18:32 <elliott> Oh; gcc was ported to System Seven
21:18:35 -!- Swiss_ has joined.
21:18:35 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: Remember that whatever you do to one side, you have to do the same thing on the other side
21:18:46 <elliott> FINALLY MY IMPOSSIBLE PROJECT IS ONE STEP CLOSER TO COMPLETION
21:18:54 <elliott> Swiss_: How much pride would you say you have in your country
21:18:59 <monqy> which impossible project
21:19:13 -!- Swiss_ has left.
21:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "Following the flight, Gagarin told the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev that during reentry he had whistled the tune "The Motherland Hears, The Motherland Knows" Following the flight, Gagarin told the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev that during reentry he had whistled the tune "The Motherland Hears, The Motherland Knows" "
21:19:21 <elliott> monqy: (A) Cygwin(-alike) for Macintosh System 7
21:19:23 <Taneb> Oh, he actually was swiss
21:19:27 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Well, his username is swiss_guy
21:19:42 <elliott> monqy: (preferably system software 6)
21:19:46 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: um of every theorem? I don't recall him saying that, I HAVE READ HIS WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE _SEVERAL_ TIMES <-- well it must be true since i made up that phrasing on the spot
21:19:49 <elliott> monqy: Including pre-emptive multitasking.
21:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "Ah, damn, I didn't realise reëntry would take this long."
21:20:49 <elliott> OK I am officially a Gagarin Fan now.
21:20:52 <itidus20> dandy: but supposing i had: x + y/5 = 2x + 3 ... would it then become x+y = 10x + 15 .. or would it be something else?
21:20:55 <elliott> I don't care how much of a communist he was.
21:21:20 <oerjan> <NihilistDandy> itidus20: Use topology to make more money <-- sheesh Banach-Tarski isn't topology
21:21:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately, it's an ungodly fusion that uses a justification that nobody else does.
21:21:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Most people use that justification.
21:21:46 <elliott> The only common client that doesn't is XChat.
21:22:00 <NihilistDandy> oerjan: Oh, psh. Set theoretic geometry, topology, whatevs
21:22:10 <elliott> NihilistDandy: It's not geometry either
21:22:28 <elliott> I guess I'll grant "set theoretic geometry", even Wikipedia seems to call it that
21:23:05 <elliott> Probably just "set theory"
21:23:17 <elliott> It starts off with geometry, then goes off and does its own thing
21:23:22 <elliott> Then ends in the same bit of geometry
21:25:45 <elliott> See also: stable marriage problem
21:26:07 <itidus20> what about if i have (x + y)/5 = 2x + 3 ... can I say x+y = 10x + 15?
21:27:06 <NihilistDandy> But putting parentheses around an expression isn't an operation, so don't try to be cute. :P
21:29:25 <itidus20> so if i want to remove a term on one side, i add the inverse term on hte other side.. but if i want to remove a division from one term, i multiply all the terms on both sides by the inverse of the division
21:30:14 <monqy> "multiply ... by the inverse of the division" what does this mean
21:31:14 <Taneb> Multiply by multiplication?
21:31:20 <oerjan> <elliott> Probably just "set theory" <-- also an important bit of group theory
21:31:27 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a -> a)
21:31:53 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> (a -> a) -> a -> a)
21:32:04 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `@'
21:32:06 <monqy> > (1 * (*)) <$> [0..10]
21:32:07 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
21:32:09 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => a -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
21:33:17 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: Anyway, the basic idea is that you perform actions on the entire LHS and the entire RHS
21:33:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:34:20 <monqy> > (1 * (*)) <$> [0..3] <*> [0..3]
21:34:21 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,1,2,3,0,2,4,6,0,3,6,9]
21:35:16 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:35:28 <oerjan> heh they added a clarification :P
21:35:43 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
21:35:45 <Sgeo> elliott, Phantom_Hoover datehuss
21:36:14 <Lymee> > ((*).(*)) 10 10 10
21:36:24 <oerjan> :t flip fmap (flip ($))
21:36:25 <lambdabot> forall b a b1. (((a -> b1) -> b1) -> b) -> a -> b
21:36:52 <oerjan> :t flip (fmap.(flip ($)))
21:36:52 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
21:37:10 <lambdabot> forall b a. (Num b, Num a) => ((a -> a) -> b) -> a -> b -> b
21:37:17 <zzo38> Do you know it is possible in Windows, to copy disk images, using the DefineDosDevice API? Hopefully whoever designs ReactOS should know about this too.
21:37:19 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:37:42 <itidus20> can expressions be considered as a list of terms to be summed together in any order?
21:38:06 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ((a -> a) -> a -> a)
21:38:20 <itidus20> and in such a list, 2 terms which are inverse of each other are negated..
21:38:43 <itidus20> ListOfTermsLHS = ListOfTermsRHS
21:38:57 <oerjan> itidus20: yes, that's saying that addition is a commutative group operation
21:39:14 <itidus20> if you allow for a term to have a sign
21:39:31 <itidus20> then subtraction can be performed with addition of course
21:39:54 <oerjan> you can do the same for products as long as there are no zeros, because multiplication is also a commutative group operation except on zeros
21:40:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:40:47 <itidus20> but suppose you want to change one of the coefficients in one of these lists, then you have to change the coefficient in every term in both lists right?
21:41:32 <oerjan> itidus20: generally what you do is to apply the _same_ operation to the LHS and the RHS, with parentheses around everything, and then you simplify each side
21:42:02 <itidus20> but you can't really do addition on groups i guess
21:42:56 <NihilistDandy> This is my new definition for multiplication forever
21:43:01 -!- sllide has joined.
21:43:03 <itidus20> like you can't say....( 5 + 6 + 4)+3 = (8+9+7)
21:43:18 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: wtf happened to the 90
21:43:22 <sllide> are esolangs really this popular?
21:43:34 <elliott> sllide: this counts as popular?
21:43:42 <elliott> there's more people on the wiki than on here, by far
21:43:44 <lambdabot> forall b a. (Num b, Num a) => ((a -> a) -> b) -> a -> b -> b
21:43:57 <sllide> i know, i was talking about esolangs in general not this channel compared to the wiki
21:44:18 <elliott> sllide: Well... they're popular enough to have a smallish wiki and IRC channel, yes :-P
21:44:32 <sllide> i am thinking of creating a esolang
21:44:39 <elliott> sllide: Although I must warn you we're off-topic most of the time.
21:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> sllide, indeed, being on-topic is generally the sign of a noob.
21:45:47 <elliott> But the primary sign of that is being Phantom_Hoover.
21:45:51 <ais523> and off-topic is often interesting
21:46:13 <ais523> elliott: I consider @ ontopi
21:46:16 <sllide> Phantom_Hoover, and refusing to go off-topic makes you anti social
21:46:22 <oerjan> <itidus20> like you can't say....( 5 + 6 + 4)+3 = (8+9+7) <-- nope, that would be distribution which is a special relationship between addition and multiplication
21:46:24 <elliott> sllide: it makes you ais523
21:46:42 <Phantom_Hoover> sllide, nah, antisocial doesn't worth that way on IRC.
21:46:53 <monqy> hating brainfuck derivatives makes Phantom_Hoover antisocial
21:47:03 <elliott> hmm, I like how we complain about various minor character traits as being vaguely ais523-esque, but calling someone ais523 would be an unwarranted compliment in 99 percent of cases
21:47:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of iodide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:47:11 <elliott> poor guy must be so confused
21:47:24 <ais523> elliott: I, umm, think that's a compliment?
21:47:31 <elliott> ais523: my thoughts exactly
21:47:53 <elliott> complete mint flavour diagram freshness
21:47:56 <sllide> so is the design of a esolang hard?
21:48:00 <sllide> i am brainstorming atm
21:48:06 <sllide> not even knowing what is comming next
21:48:08 <ais523> sllide: making a bad esolang is really easy
21:48:10 <elliott> sllide: no. see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Shameful
21:48:12 <ais523> making a good esolang is pretty hard
21:48:21 <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: I consider @ ontopi <-- what did the ontopus do to you
21:48:26 <sllide> my goal isnt to make it a good language
21:48:33 <ais523> if you make another boring brainfuck derivative, everyone will shout at you
21:48:36 <ais523> I mean, good at being an esolang
21:48:37 <elliott> oerjan: thank you for showcasing your character trait to sllide.
21:48:53 <monqy> do I have a character trait
21:49:12 <sllide> i was thinking about something befunge like
21:49:29 <monqy> be careful or you'll make another boring befunge derivative
21:49:36 <elliott> That's more interesting than thinkign about something BF-like
21:49:50 <sllide> well the only thing i want is it to be 2d like bf
21:50:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If there were a billion Feather derivatives that'd be boring too
21:50:08 <oerjan> puns and proving things TC, that's my shtick
21:50:08 <elliott> sllide: Careful abbreviating Befunge as BF
21:50:26 -!- coppro has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of bromide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:50:31 <monqy> befunge and brainfuck "one and the same"
21:50:33 <elliott> oerjan: can you prove my toaster TC... it can't duplicate things, but it can toast them
21:50:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but also the design of Brainfuck is also far more amenable to making terrible derivatives.
21:50:54 <ais523> BF is generally used as an abbreviation for "brainfuck"
21:50:58 <ais523> because that word needs abbreviation
21:51:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you miscapitalised "brainfuck"
21:51:07 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: I'll just replace all the >'s with % and I'll be interesting
21:51:17 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't really need abbreviation
21:51:20 <sllide> i am so bad at being creative
21:51:27 <ais523> elliott: it's painful to type
21:51:36 <sllide> i cant even come up with a project name
21:51:37 <elliott> ais523: does it physically hurt you to type out curses
21:51:39 <oerjan> elliott: well duplication might be simulated. can you do _two_ toastings looking like jesus?
21:51:48 <ais523> elliott: no, I'm fine with them in an appropriate context
21:51:52 <elliott> sllide: that's not lack of creativity, that's one of the two hard problems of computer sciience.
21:52:01 <elliott> sllide: the others are caching and fencepost errors
21:52:02 <ais523> but I don't use them very often, so they aren't ingrained in muscle memory
21:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> You miscapitalise most sentences. Please stop being prescriptivist about things that aren't even prescribed, kthxbye
21:52:10 <elliott> ais523: try swearing a lot
21:52:15 <ais523> elliott: I rarely have problems naming things
21:52:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: try not whining so much about people who correct your capitalisation of bf
21:52:25 <sllide> i hate fencepost errors
21:52:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I have correct spelling and grammar for IRC
21:52:43 <ais523> the grammar I use is consistent, it's just different from normal written English
21:53:01 <sllide> i remember having one in the graphics driver of my OS
21:53:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because you went into a full-blown rant when you incorrectly corrected an esowiki page's capitalisation of it and I fixed it
21:53:43 <elliott> ais523: English really needs a syntax-tree nesting limit enforced at gunpoint
21:53:48 <oerjan> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If there were a billion Feather derivatives that'd be boring too <-- there can only be one feather derivative in recorded history, although it might change
21:53:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and I don't want to go into another one, so please shut up about it.
21:54:04 <elliott> ais523: anyone who disagrees will be shown [[Checkout]]
21:54:05 <ais523> elliott: why? I'd be more likely to break it than almost anyone else
21:54:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're really overreacting, btw.
21:54:41 <elliott> sllide: you have an OS? let me tell you about how much better @ is...
21:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm shutting up about it; please return the favour.
21:54:59 <sllide> it was a attempt at a os
21:55:12 -!- pumpkin has joined.
21:55:18 <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: it's painful to type <-- just write some slash fiction for practice and that should pass
21:55:21 <ais523> elliott: different OSes are good for different purposes, I don't think you could use @ for hard-realtime control of a microcontroller
21:55:34 <elliott> ais523: I wouldn't use an OS for hard-realtime control of a microcontroller
21:55:45 <ais523> elliott: if it's doing more than one thing, you need at least a trivial OS
21:55:55 <elliott> oerjan: careful, he'll rage/part
21:56:15 <ais523> I know that last time I programmed a DSP, I used a pre-empting OS where each process had a number and pre-empted lower-numbered processes
21:56:29 <elliott> ais523: Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell I think you could get @ to be hard-realtime
21:56:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:56:35 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not imaginative enough to write truly great slash fiction
21:56:37 <elliott> You'd have to not run most of the standard system though
21:56:47 <elliott> But you could keep, like, the equivalent of the language stdlib
21:56:52 <elliott> As long as its performance guarantees were OK for you
21:56:56 <elliott> (you could replace the language itself)
21:57:02 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> oerjan: I'm not imaginative enough to write truly great slash fiction
21:57:03 <HackEgo> 574) <ais523> oerjan: I'm not imaginative enough to write truly great slash fiction
21:57:28 <elliott> I like how right after sllide entered the channel went insane
21:58:06 <ais523> elliott: we're that insane anyway, but someone new joining increases activity, so it becomes more obvious
21:58:12 <ais523> NihilistDandy: I'm not sure what you're referencing
21:59:16 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I can modify that dataflow model to handle mutable references
21:59:39 <elliott> I must salvage my terribleness
22:01:08 <sllide> actually i have 2 goals, one is to have a 2d non liniar programming language, and a way to add graphical i/o later on
22:01:49 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: careful, he'll rage/part <-- oh right, should get him addicted first
22:02:14 <elliott> hey fungot, increase our standards
22:02:15 <fungot> elliott: just be patient, the answer, the fact remained except a note of this, since it just looks so 8ad!
22:02:16 <ais523> oh, I only just got the joke
22:02:30 <elliott> ais523: wait, there was a joke?
22:02:32 <elliott> fungot: you're not helping
22:02:32 <fungot> elliott: for a while it was frustrating. they will come a day
22:02:33 -!- Vivio-chan has joined.
22:02:41 <ais523> elliott: glad to know it wasn't intentional
22:02:44 -!- Vivio-chan has quit (Client Quit).
22:02:46 <elliott> Lymee: other things that aren't helping: you
22:02:52 <pikhq_> elliott: Yeah, I can't imagine @ not being flexible enough to be able to remove/replace any impediments to realtime.
22:02:56 <Lymee> ais523, go write the slashfic. Now.
22:03:03 <ais523> Lymee: you have a bot ready to bring into channels just in case that happens/
22:03:07 <elliott> this is terrible how did everything suddenly become terrible
22:03:27 <ais523> Lymee: I suppose it wouldn't have taken that long to write one
22:03:33 <pikhq_> Heck, worst case scenario you'd make your hard realtime thing be the only thing running, disable the scheduler, and voila.
22:03:36 <ais523> and it could have been done in the time since oerjan's commetn
22:03:48 <pikhq_> You're running on bare hardware, except less painful.
22:03:50 <ais523> pikhq_: hard realtime stuff often does need a scheduler
22:03:52 <elliott> pikhq_: I think it's kind of cheating
22:03:53 <ais523> just a very deterministic one
22:04:04 <elliott> because you're not really running @ any more
22:04:11 <pikhq_> elliott: Yes, this would be cheating.
22:04:16 <elliott> you're running some other OS that happens to use some of @'s libraries
22:04:19 <pikhq_> elliott: Hence why I said "worst case".
22:04:23 <elliott> which may involve its object creation stuff
22:04:59 <elliott> @ is certainly targeted at things that aren't any kind of realtime, with one person sitting at them, with a fairly decent processor on it
22:05:00 <pikhq_> More practically, you'd probably just make the scheduler give hard realtime guarantees.
22:05:18 <elliott> sllide: will you not ask if I say don't ask?
22:05:39 <sllide> or just hard to explain
22:05:43 <elliott> sllide: ask me again slightly later when I have nothing to do that isn't explaining @
22:06:04 <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
22:06:18 * elliott hunts down, murders oerjan
22:06:29 <pikhq_> elliott: Which might even already exist — there's a chance you'd want some things for the end user being realtime... (though I can't really think of much that's *hard* realtime for that)
22:06:31 <ais523> elliott: at least your city isn't rioting at the moment
22:06:58 <ais523> I live far enough from the centre that it hasn't affected me other than preventing me travelling easily
22:07:03 <ais523> but it's still annoying
22:07:04 <elliott> ais523: why don't people live in fireproof buildings; hypothesis: they're idiots
22:07:13 <pikhq_> `addquote <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
22:07:14 <HackEgo> 575) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
22:07:16 <ais523> elliott: because completely fireproofing a building is really hard
22:07:18 <elliott> what i am saying is, riots only affect people who live in stupid buildings.
22:07:27 <elliott> <pikhq_> elliott: Which might even already exist — there's a chance you'd want some things for the end user being realtime... (though I can't really think of much that's *hard* realtime for that)
22:07:39 <elliott> pikhq_: well user input always gets processed immediately in the standard desktop @
22:07:40 <oerjan> elliott: hey i was carefully using british spelling for you
22:07:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> elliott: at least your city isn't rioting at the moment
22:08:00 <pikhq_> elliott: Pretty sure that's still soft realtime.
22:08:02 <elliott> because otherwise you don't really have many options if something starts hogging your CPU
22:08:17 <elliott> because it's really annoying to have your cursor start moving slower when your system is under load
22:08:18 <pikhq_> But eh, you can overkill that just fine. :)
22:08:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: has the rioting reached Scotland yet? I haven't heard any reports of it, but am not sure I would if it had
22:08:43 <elliott> ais523: in Glasgow, they call that Tuesday
22:09:05 <elliott> oh no, have I become an agent of Edinburgh unwittingly?
22:09:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime.
22:09:10 <ais523> I think in London/Birmingham/Manchester, the rioters are really just trying to create a diversion so that they can burgle things
22:09:29 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime.
22:09:30 <HackEgo> 576) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime.
22:09:35 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: has the rioting reached Scotland yet? I haven't heard any reports of it, but am not sure I would if it had <elliott> ais523: in Glasgow, they call that Tuesday <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime.
22:09:36 <HackEgo> 577) <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: has the rioting reached Scotland yet? I haven't heard any reports of it, but am not sure I would if it had <elliott> ais523: in Glasgow, they call that Tuesday <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime.
22:09:59 <HackEgo> 576) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime.
22:10:51 <monqy> ok i think i finally caught up
22:10:55 <elliott> ais523: have a nightmare: you're remotely administrating an @ system, when suddenly, every UI element living on it stops updating........ and responding to input
22:10:59 <monqy> are we done exploding
22:11:10 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:11:20 <elliott> ais523: you discard them and open a remote emergency console object........... and it doesn't load
22:11:39 <ais523> elliott: sounds like a connection drop?
22:11:41 <elliott> you call the hosting company and ask them to check on the physical machine.........
22:11:55 <pikhq_> Sounds like a quantum teleportation to the moon.
22:12:02 <elliott> ais523: I was trying to imply it was completely frozen, which in @ is a situation as difficult to create as it is to get out of
22:12:10 <monqy> this is my nightmare every night
22:12:40 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:13:02 <itidus20> the physical machine is not there? that sounds like trouble
22:13:20 <elliott> the hosting company check their records...
22:13:29 <sllide> fuck, everything i come up with is almost identical like befunge
22:13:36 <elliott> and discover IT DOESN'T EXIST
22:13:43 <elliott> then you retreat into your conscious mind
22:14:09 <itidus20> only to find.. the movie doesn't exist
22:14:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
22:14:32 <elliott> Dear diary: today itidus20 and Phantom_Hoover made the same joke simultaneously. Today my life fulfilled itself.
22:14:53 <monqy> I don't have a diary
22:14:56 <elliott> ais523: actually, I wonder why Linux systems can freeze up totally?
22:15:01 <olsner> elliott: hmm, your life did? not itidus20 and Phantom_Hoover?
22:15:03 <elliott> I can only assume the scheduler is really dumb
22:15:15 <itidus20> So you stop to count the number of things which have gone wrong, and discover that integers do not exist
22:15:16 <ais523> elliott: presumably a lock on something really important doesn't get released
22:15:24 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:15:28 <elliott> ais523: but you can lock up a linux system without running into any kind of critical bug
22:15:33 <ais523> not to mention, a kernel panic deliberately locks up the system
22:15:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, actually I was aiming for a subversion of the M. Night Shyamalan joke, but it obviously fell flat.
22:15:36 <elliott> ais523: just start a load of memory-hogging and CPU-hogging processes
22:15:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I got that
22:15:39 <ais523> and just loops with the caps lock light flashing
22:15:43 <olsner> haven't you read the whole soap opera about some guy's heroic efforts at making a sane scheduler for linux?
22:15:56 <elliott> I don't know that it avoids total lockups
22:16:01 <ais523> it'd be better if it were actually written in BF
22:16:02 <elliott> I mean, obviously total lockups
22:16:12 <elliott> because it's still running the really intensive processes
22:16:18 <elliott> but why is it never switching to your UI long enough for it to do anything?
22:16:36 <elliott> why does a bunch of processes being really demanding of resources deprive other processes that don't even want much?
22:17:19 <ais523> oh, I see, you're talking about thrashing, etc?
22:17:29 <ais523> I've had that happen on Windows too
22:17:38 <elliott> yes, but I generally expect Linux to be slightly saner
22:17:41 <ais523> I wonder if it can happen on OS X? my guess is yes, but I'm not sure
22:17:59 <elliott> I mean, obviously it's easy to write an OS naively that has this problem, but I don't see why you can't solve it
22:18:15 <elliott> It might slow down things that actually do really intensive stuff, but those are generally servers and it is OK for servers to use different schedulers
22:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess in Linux's case it's because X is a normal process and it'd be hard to do nicely?
22:19:02 <ais523> elliott: when you get a lock up that hard, does control-alt-F1 work well?
22:19:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'd be very surprised if setting X + your WM + your terminal to realtime priority would solve the issue
22:19:19 <elliott> ais523: If it does, it is generally really slow.
22:19:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I've had lockouts much worse than that in the past.
22:19:25 <elliott> Like, faster than your GUI, but still hugely lagged.
22:19:32 <ais523> I turned memory overcommit off, and it helped
22:19:34 <elliott> as in it can take over a minute to log in
22:19:43 <elliott> ais523: but now you can't run SBCL :)
22:19:44 <ais523> last time I accidentally wrote a program that took up all of memory, I just got an "out of memory" error
22:20:06 <ais523> (I was trying to brute-force a travelling salesman problem solution, using A*)
22:20:19 <elliott> using all of an @ system's memory would be Fun
22:20:21 <ais523> (the number of places to visit was small enough that I thought it might be bruteforceable, but it turns out it wasn't)
22:20:33 <ais523> elliott: you clearly need an rlimit equivalent
22:20:59 <elliott> ais523: that's just "only giving code an allocator that keeps track of how much space it's used so far", etc.
22:21:19 <Gregor> What's the nonshittiest way to share big files for free? Like rapidshare and such only ... not terrible.
22:21:25 <ais523> cpu time limiting might he harder
22:21:29 <elliott> Gregor: mediafire is what I use, because it's... acceptable.
22:21:36 <ais523> Gregor: I ran into that problem recently; in the end, we used netcat + md5
22:21:45 <elliott> Gregor: It has ads and it's shittyish, but it doesn't force you to wait before downloading
22:21:51 <elliott> It's the best of the bunch since filebin.ca went down
22:22:13 <ais523> mediafire doesn't work well with wget
22:23:02 <sllide> i am going outside smoke a cig and hope something comes up in my mind while i'm doing that
22:23:04 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, go with Mediafire
22:23:10 <elliott> ais523: You can get it to work, it's just awkward
22:23:14 <elliott> But for two hundred megs, [browser] should be fine
22:23:36 <elliott> Gregor: There's also email, if you have lenient enough servers
22:24:21 <ais523> Gregor: I tried email first, the other end's gmail rejected it because I was sending a tarball and one of the files in it had a .bat extension
22:24:25 <ais523> which is, umm, a little silly
22:25:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, oklopol liked SADOL moderately.
22:29:02 <zzo38> ais523: Then can you do something such as reverse the file before sending?
22:29:21 <elliott> <lupine_85> I try to avoid PMs on IRC
22:29:22 <elliott> <lupine_85> and there was that nutter who kept trying to get me on google voice or whatnot
22:29:22 <elliott> <lupine_85> deeply unpleasant
22:29:23 <elliott> Sgeo: is this the hacker guy
22:29:37 <elliott> <lupine_85> 8 bits per character should be enough for anyone!
22:30:06 <ais523> zzo38: I could have done, but we'd already set up netcat by then
22:30:09 <elliott> Sgeo: is that the guy who thought notice was hacking
22:30:27 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
22:30:28 <elliott> <Elisha> for instance nations who use most characters should have only 1byte, and chinese can take 6bytes for a sign, since their sign tells you much more than 10bytes of long word in 1byte
22:30:42 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't think there is such a person, but at one point I thought jasonmxristos thought that
22:30:51 <ais523> elliott: are you busy quoting unintelligable people?
22:30:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:31:01 <elliott> ais523: it's #jesus, the #esoteric away from #esoteric
22:31:22 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:31:23 <elliott> <Preacha_Warg> the tough questions <Preacha_Warg> why does God do such and such
22:31:26 <elliott> definitely the tough questions
22:36:02 <itidus20> From whose tradition did you start to refer to god in capitalized pronouns? The people in the bible were largely illiterate and thus they couldn't say pronouns with a capitalization. When did this start?
22:36:22 <itidus20> is the kind of question I can think up when I am looking to show off that i am tougher than warg
22:36:44 <elliott> is #jesus ever anything BUT reiterations of "debates" people have had about a thousand times
22:37:06 <elliott> because i love it, it is like groundhog day, if that were an IRC channel, and not a film starring bill murray. or si bill murray in#jesus/s?????????///
22:37:08 <ais523> itidus20: actually, nouns/pronouns used to be capitalised in English
22:37:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: totally, they're so annoying
22:37:19 <ais523> but many lost their capitalisation over time
22:37:20 <Patashu> how can #jesus ever NOT be reiterations of debates
22:37:26 <Patashu> you can't prove anything empirically re: religion
22:37:33 <elliott> Patashu: it could be a circlejerk
22:37:40 <elliott> that's kind of the POINT of #jesus
22:37:45 <elliott> it's meant to be like a christian hangout
22:37:50 <elliott> but all these atheists are ruining it for the rest of us
22:38:15 <olsner> elliott: i.e. the atheists are ruining the show?
22:38:36 <olsner> I kind of expected atheists to create some action, but maybe they are boring atheists
22:38:53 <elliott> olsner: "HURR YOU CAN'T EMPIRICALLY PROVE GOD - I WIN"
22:39:04 <ais523> you can't empirically disprove God either
22:39:09 <elliott> olsner: and then responding to people who talk with "(ha ha this is funny because christians are stupid)"
22:39:20 <itidus20> I like to argue. I do it for the thrill much like a hunter shooting down pidgeons.
22:39:25 <pikhq_> ais523: No, but you can't empirically disprove that you're a figment of my imagination.
22:39:30 <elliott> ais523: nor Russell's teapot, but there are far simpler reasons to reject god
22:39:50 <ais523> pikhq_: and why would I want to?
22:39:55 <elliott> what i am saying is, exterminating atheists worldwide to make #jesus a more entertaining place: a reasonable proposition?
22:40:07 <olsner> just ban them from #jesus
22:40:47 <elliott> olsner: they're allowed there which is STUPID
22:40:53 <elliott> pikhq_: no im a christian now
22:41:08 <pikhq_> elliott: The offer still stands.
22:41:13 <olsner> elliott: just... unallow them
22:41:23 <elliott> olsner: i cant im not op :(
22:41:34 -!- kwertii has joined.
22:41:48 <olsner> you need to produce the image of a good christian so you get op
22:41:50 <elliott> if I were op I would provide a stable and caring environment for people who talk about how they burn books to circlejerk in peace
22:42:03 <elliott> olsner: but Sgeo was almost op and is athiest..... more athie than anyone else in there...................
22:42:15 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:42:20 <olsner> maybe complaining some about the atheists would help giva a "good guy for cleaning up the channel" impression
22:42:46 <pikhq_> "Yeah, man, those atheists should be crucified!"
22:43:19 <elliott> olsner: Sgeo would out me because he's a jerk
22:43:20 <monqy> cross on rotating platter
22:43:25 <olsner> the eighth seven sin: being an unfunny atheist in a christian forum
22:43:27 <sllide> nope, just more ideas that look like befunge >.<
22:43:29 <elliott> * DanFred (~asd@0x55531367.adsl.cybercity.dk) has joined #jesus
22:43:33 <elliott> <DanFred> real christianity in ##christian
22:43:33 <elliott> <DanFred> here you are banned for saying killing is not christian
22:43:52 <monqy> oh man is ##christian like #jesus but more so
22:43:54 <pikhq_> NihilistDandy: What, and tarnish St. Peter?
22:44:18 <NihilistDandy> pikhq_: I'm willing to make a case that Peter was the first ever atheist. :D
22:44:52 <elliott> * Users on ##christian: elliott Sgeo Phantom_Hoover DanFred ^peter^ ljrbot luke-jr sec^nd luke-jr|otg @ChanServ
22:44:56 <elliott> monqy: initial evidence says "yes"
22:45:08 <monqy> it looks brilliant
22:45:21 <ais523> elliott: is ChanServ christian?
22:45:23 <pikhq_> Astonishing considering what Peter did.
22:45:28 <itidus20> ais523: i didn't know that by the way about pronouns... cool stuff
22:45:33 <elliott> ais523: ChanServ is literally jesus. (this is the best religion ok.)
22:45:58 <elliott> <lupine_85> ^peter^, incidentally, I am aware that your demands that I prove I exist are an attempt to distract me from your failure to provide *any evidence* (not a proof, merely evidence that meets the mainstream definition of what evidence is) of the form you claimed was available using basic research
22:46:01 <itidus20> Sometimes I don't know which way to go on the "i"
22:46:11 <elliott> YOU ARE RUINING THE CHANNEL LUPINE :/
22:46:34 <elliott> `don'taddquotebutireallywantto <DanFred> christianity is not a badge you buy in USA with your gun purchase
22:51:11 <monqy> so what is this so-called real christianity
22:51:52 <monqy> do they ever quibble about which flavour of christianity is right
22:51:55 <zzo38> "Real Christianity", who knows.... maybe...
22:52:34 <elliott> <DanFred> I am banned from this channel for saying that soldiers are evil because they kill and Jesus is pacifism
22:52:39 <Sgeo> monqy, constantly
22:52:49 <elliott> Sgeo: he means hash hash christian
22:53:08 <Sgeo> #jesus bickers all the time
22:53:18 <Sgeo> I'm not a ##catholic or ##christian regular
22:53:24 <elliott> Someone who doesn't have predisposed lament bias against them ask him what he thinks qualia are
22:53:36 <monqy> wait now danfred is pacifism??? I thought last he said that killing is christian???????
22:53:46 <elliott> monqy: <elliott> <DanFred> here you are banned for saying killing is not christian
22:54:03 <monqy> am I misinterpret that
22:54:32 <elliott> <lupine_85> we've even weighed bodies before and after death to see if anything changes
22:54:34 <monqy> and then what was "soldiers are evil because they kill" about
22:54:37 <elliott> apparently this is a test of dualism
22:54:42 <elliott> monqy: he hates hash-jesus
22:54:52 <elliott> <elliott> <lupine_85> we've even weighed bodies before and after death to see if anything changes
22:54:55 <elliott> we need to all appreciate how this is
22:54:58 <elliott> the best test for dualism possible
22:55:24 <zzo38> The weight cannot test for dualism, that is dumb.
22:55:28 <monqy> the classic "souls have mass" hypothesis
22:55:32 <ais523> elliott: it was how phlogiston was proved to not exist
22:55:36 <ais523> or at least, have a negative weight
22:55:49 <elliott> phlogiston = the matter->spirit bridge??
22:55:56 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> the classic "souls have mass" hypothesis
22:55:57 <HackEgo> 577) <monqy> the classic "souls have mass" hypothesis
22:56:06 <zzo38> monqy: Yes, if you assume souls have both location and mass... but how can you know either one is correct?
22:56:18 -!- myndzi has joined.
22:56:25 <elliott> "Is the sentence, "This is a load of bull" really necessary for the scholarly development of the article?" --[[Talk:Phlogiston theory]]
22:56:25 <monqy> zzo38: maybe that's what they were testing. secretly.
22:56:53 <elliott> <Sgeo> lupine_85, I'm going to agree with Phantom_Hoover on this. I'd think opening up the brain, and seeing only neurons, and their parts, etc., is a better evidence against dualism
22:57:03 <elliott> Sgeo: you realise that dualism could be implemented in the laws of physics
22:57:14 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:57:24 <elliott> just run a process over everything that looks like a brain and copy the information you get out of them to the spirit world
22:57:36 <Sgeo> elliott, that would be zombie world stuff
22:57:40 <Sgeo> Not back and forth communication
22:57:47 <zzo38> elliott: I don't think that disproves dualism though, but it does show what dualism is not. Of course that does not mean dualism exists either; it just means that if it does, it is not that.
22:57:51 <elliott> maybe god is just a really bad programmer
22:58:08 <zzo38> But "just run a process over everything that looks like a brain and copy the information you get out of them to the spirit world" is absurd.
22:58:34 <sllide> okay, anyone here got some ideas for me?
22:58:52 <itidus20> sllide is here for making an esolang
22:59:02 <elliott> zzo38: you can do that in a computer simulation, so you can do it in a universe
22:59:04 <Patashu> sllide, make an RTS themed esolang
22:59:07 <Patashu> or a roguelike themed esolang
22:59:10 <zzo38> sllide: I don't know. You can look at the list of ideas and make up something else new
22:59:11 <Patashu> or a religion themed esolang
22:59:18 <Patashu> or a civilization/SMAC themed esolang
22:59:20 <sllide> zzo38, where is that list?
22:59:21 <zzo38> elliott: Yes you probably can, but that does not mean it is not absurd
22:59:30 <itidus20> speaking of religion, what about a political themed esolang?
22:59:46 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas
23:00:06 <Patashu> made up of politicians, who each have a voting function
23:00:15 <Patashu> when a value is put up, all politicians vote aye or nay and it either passes or fails...
23:00:18 <Patashu> hmm, this is sounding like a neural network
23:01:49 <itidus20> Democrats Propose Presidential Candidate Obama. Republicans Propose Presidental Candidate McCain. Elect President. Move President to White House.
23:01:52 <elliott> no that is called being human monqy
23:02:13 <monqy> are monkeys subhuman
23:02:16 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: We need to get ^peter^ banned because it's really annoying to highlight him
23:02:49 <zzo38> I think monkeys are unhuman. That is, everything not human is unhuman, and human is not unhuman. It is my opinion.
23:03:12 <zzo38> However, note that "unhuman" should not imply anything other than just this, please!
23:04:32 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: have you tried p<tab> ?
23:04:36 <itidus20> don't mind me sllide... i have many unbaked ideas
23:04:45 <elliott> <Free-man> elliott bc that's what yhvh had writ in Gen. 1.
23:04:45 <zzo38> One idea I had about esolang is the "Crab's Jukebox"-style programming language.
23:05:01 <sllide> i was thinking of something related with images
23:05:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Please ask lament exactly how he defines qualia it's insanely irritating.
23:05:21 <Sgeo> elliott, you can't do it?
23:05:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of iodide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:05:34 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: well i'm asking if you've _tried_. i believe some clients ignore non-alphanums for selecting nicks to expand to
23:05:38 <elliott> Sgeo: no, because he dislikes me and won't respond with the full sincerity he might give you.
23:05:42 <elliott> or at least the sixty percent sincerity.
23:05:51 <elliott> ideally one of the regular Christians would ask.
23:05:58 <elliott> (of the slightly less bizarre variety)
23:06:35 <elliott> <Patashu> I think debates about qualia, intelligence, emotions, pain and so on would be improved by a healthy dose of computer science/programming knowledge
23:06:50 <itidus20> qualia is that which is percieved yet cannot be communicated directly. you can only assume that it exists
23:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, sure, it'd be like every debate having itidus20.
23:07:08 <sllide> i think i'm going with images
23:07:19 <elliott> ,addquote <DanFred> Patashu, I am a genius computer scientist with special skills in AI. and yes it can help
23:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, on that subject, get into #jesus already lupine is running it into the ground.
23:07:30 <Patashu> <DanFred> Patashu, I am a genius computer scientist with special skills in AI. and yes it can help
23:07:34 <elliott> itidus20: YES GET INTO #JESUS WE NEED YOU
23:08:00 <monqy> wow im a genious computer scientist too
23:08:01 <elliott> this is my favourite channel
23:08:06 <elliott> monqy: are you in jesus... if not why not
23:08:10 <ais523> elliott: fun situation in the Oracle vs. Google court case; Oracle are claiming that autosaves of an email from a Google employee to a Google lawyer don't fall under attorney-client privilege because the To: filed wasn't filled in when the autosave was taken
23:08:12 <itidus20> oops i need to focus on esolang topic
23:08:31 <ais523> elliott: I'm not entirely sure if their reasoning is correct or not
23:08:36 <elliott> <DanFred> ^peter^, ye of little faith
23:08:36 <elliott> <lupine_85> lament, and you do have qualia
23:08:37 <sllide> or maybe a person walking and everything it encounters is executing
23:08:39 <elliott> this combined as "ye of little qualia"
23:08:44 <ais523> after all, the autosaves /weren't/ sent to a lawyer...
23:08:55 <elliott> <^peter^> Free-man Dan does speak in tongues, English and danish at least.
23:09:00 <elliott> we need a quote base just for that other channel
23:09:08 <elliott> that i've mentioned by name enough times that if i do it again ais523 might get annoyed
23:09:16 <monqy> im feeling uncomfortable
23:09:21 <ais523> elliott: I can be generally annoyed anyway
23:09:23 <itidus20> lupine is assuming that lament is a person and hence has a conciousness
23:09:28 <elliott> monqy: i am going to cyberbully you into joining
23:09:38 <monqy> elliott: it is done
23:09:45 <elliott> ais523: I'm just attempting to keep it at nothing greater than "moderately fuming"
23:09:51 <itidus20> but we know better that lament is a bot, and hence is highly unlikely to have qualia
23:09:54 <NihilistDandy> monqy: I'm gonna call all your friends and tell them you're not cool unless you join
23:09:55 <ais523> <elliott> monqy: i am going to cyberbully you into joining <--- I'll report it to Facebook!
23:09:58 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I think we should all consider solipsist missionaries now because it is very funny.
23:10:28 <elliott> YOU NEVER SAID IT WAS FUNNY TO ME ;____________-;
23:10:48 <itidus20> elliott: just need to get lupine to try a turing test on lament
23:10:58 <elliott> itidus20: You must join and make it happen it is mandatory.
23:11:09 <olsner> too late now, maybe tomorrow I'll join #jesus to see what the fuzz is about
23:12:02 <itidus20> lament is a bot made by bill gates to spy on rms
23:12:21 <elliott> <DanFred> bool pain=true; that's pain?
23:12:22 <elliott> <DanFred> float pain=1000000; that's a lot of pain?
23:12:47 <elliott> Patashu: jesus never stops
23:12:53 <oerjan> itidus20: you _do_ know lament is a sometimes regular here?
23:13:00 <NihilistDandy> I always think ^peter^ is agreeing with whoever's above hi
23:13:01 <elliott> oerjan: not any more, thanks to me :D
23:13:21 <itidus20> oerjan "<elliott> <lupine_85> lament, and you do have qualia"
23:13:24 * Sgeo braces for jason
23:13:48 <elliott> and how has he started already
23:13:53 <itidus20> my point is that it is unlikely that this lupine can prove lament is a human.. let alone prove he has qualia
23:14:00 <monqy> god damn #jesus is ridiculous
23:14:10 <elliott> monqy: sorry you are misspelling "the best channel"
23:14:26 <oerjan> elliott: JUST DON'T BELIEVE YOU'LL GET OPS BY WEARING OUT THE OLD ONES
23:14:40 <Patashu> <DanFred> lupine_85, I wont waste my time on you. when you are ready you can think about how to make a simple robot feel pain. it cannot be done. it's not very hard, it's not super hard. it cannot be done
23:15:06 <itidus20> you just can't prove it feels pain
23:15:14 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with Cardassians, they're all really nice and then they hit you with a rock.
23:15:15 <HackEgo> 578) <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with Cardassians, they're all really nice and then they hit you with a rock.
23:15:20 <zzo38> Can you make a *complicated* robot feel pain?
23:15:41 <Patashu> it's the pain of the gaps argument
23:15:46 <Patashu> no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain
23:15:52 <itidus20> it's all like "did that part of your brain which percieves pain activate?".. or as a doctor says "does it hurt when I do this?"
23:16:13 <itidus20> with a robot there is no way of knowing
23:16:29 <itidus20> since the robot has all come about artificially
23:16:48 <elliott> `addquote <Patashu> it's the pain of the gaps argument <Patashu> no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain <Patashu> it's never close enough
23:16:49 <HackEgo> 579) <Patashu> it's the pain of the gaps argument <Patashu> no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain <Patashu> it's never close enough
23:16:56 <oerjan> ceci n'est pas une pain
23:17:06 <elliott> <jasonmxristos> brainproxy: come in do you read me?
23:17:09 <elliott> Sgeo: does he believe hes a spaceman...
23:17:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have you encountered this jason guy before is he amazing...
23:17:49 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Jason's a big ball of crazy. It's awesome
23:17:50 <itidus20> ceci n'est pas un sentient being
23:18:03 <elliott> <DanFred> lupine_85, I'm a genius beyond what you will ever be. I am incomparably ahead of you. there is no chance I could be wrong about this. you are the one who doesn't think because you are not ready to handle the implications of it. ironically it is a spiritual failing.
23:18:11 <elliott> it's like a breakdown in realtime
23:18:14 <oerjan> the uncanny valley of pain
23:18:28 <elliott> im sorry ais523 but this is just too amazing not to be a part of
23:18:42 <oerjan> <NihilistDandy> Though pain is masculine <-- dammit
23:18:45 <elliott> <jasonmxristos> ^peter^: come in do you read me
23:18:50 <elliott> does he ping everyone like this NihilistDandy
23:19:09 <elliott> ok jesus chat in #esoteric-blah since ais523 is close to rage/parting
23:19:09 <itidus20> nice call oerjan @ uncanny valley of pain
23:19:24 <NihilistDandy> Though usually he'll do it over and over until he gets some attention, elliott
23:19:53 <ais523> elliott: actually I'm close to going home for unrelated reasons
23:20:09 <itidus20> you have to remember that the definition of that which can feel pain, is not met by a robot .. since it is all built up artificially and mechanically
23:20:16 <oerjan> you mean close to doing your riot shopping
23:20:40 <ais523> nah, I'm not like that
23:20:55 <ais523> and the buses don't run this late, and walking to the city centre would take a couple of hours
23:20:59 <oerjan> Dr. ais523 and Mr. looter
23:21:24 <itidus20> just as magritte says you cannot eat a painting of an apple... so, a robot does not gain human 'soul' is the word i think, by coming to more and more resemble a human
23:21:47 <Patashu> itidus then it's just a semantic argument
23:21:55 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:22:00 <itidus20> but... i don't know where i came from :P
23:22:07 <zzo38> Then what is the proper definition of that which can feel pain? Is it difficult? Possibly it is.
23:22:12 <oerjan> itidus20: that all depends on exactly what physical qualities are necessary to support a soul
23:22:45 <zzo38> oerjan: But then, you also need to have the correct proper definition of a soul, if you want to figure that out using proper scientific methods.
23:22:58 <itidus20> oh you can just make a soul chair out of wood
23:23:06 <oerjan> it seems biased to assume carbon water solutions are needed
23:23:27 <itidus20> oerjan: yes.. that theory is falling apart at the seams with that ammonia thing
23:23:28 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I think it is biased
23:23:37 <sllide> is there a monospaced pastebin?
23:23:45 <elliott> sllide: almost all of them; we tend to use sprunge.us
23:23:53 <itidus20> that lifeform discovered in some acid pool
23:24:01 <itidus20> there was carbon present i think
23:24:02 <zzo38> Yes, I also prefer sprunge
23:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry
23:24:20 <sllide> i'm in windows atm >.<
23:24:29 <oerjan> itidus20: arsenic but yes it was rather dubious science
23:24:44 <itidus20> ok i got ammonia mixed up with arsenic..
23:25:00 <itidus20> arsenic didn't replace the carbon as i recall but rather the phosphate
23:25:10 <oerjan> itidus20: i think ammonia has been suggested as a possibility for those cold planets/moons like titan
23:25:35 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
23:25:39 <elliott> sllide: what about windows?
23:25:42 <itidus20> does a liquid depend on any special type of molecule
23:25:43 <elliott> NihilistDandy: #esoteric-jesus
23:25:46 <oerjan> well the phosphorus is probably mostly in phosphate anyway
23:26:10 <itidus20> any things made of molecules can go through stages of gas liquid and solid or whatever
23:26:23 <oerjan> itidus20: no, but water is a very _unusual_ liquid with many other extraordinary properties
23:26:23 <itidus20> in the same way it is feasible that life can exist out of any molecules
23:26:46 <oerjan> so while it might be replaced, it might not work as well
23:26:51 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes, that does make sense.
23:26:53 -!- ais523 has left ("rage/part").
23:26:55 <zzo38> oerjan: And yes that is true too.
23:27:15 <sllide> elliott, does cmd support tunneling of arguments?
23:27:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: highly compressed diamond, remarkably :P
23:27:36 <HackEgo> 445) <Phantom_Hoover> The eigenratio of reality has to be enormous, though.
23:28:07 * oerjan saw that on reddit some months ago
23:28:32 <oerjan> it was hypothesized that this diamond liquid might exist inside planets like jupiter
23:28:45 <elliott> sllide: you don't need pipes to paste to sprunge though
23:28:49 <elliott> sllide: curl -F 'sprunge=<filename' sprunge.us
23:28:55 <itidus20> ok the way i see it is bounding volumes inside each other...
23:29:15 <oerjan> well, i guess it's really carbon
23:29:16 <elliott> http://curl.haxx.se/latest.cgi?curl=win32-devel-msvc is curl for windows
23:29:27 <elliott> http://curl.haxx.se/latest.cgi?curl=win32-ssl-devel-msvc
23:29:28 <itidus20> each bounding volume represents an assumption... inside it, the majority is wrong, but there are some areas of truth
23:29:36 <elliott> or http://curl.haxx.se/latest.cgi?curl=win64-ssl-sspi if you're on 64-bit I suppose
23:29:39 <oerjan> somewhat remarkable since carbon does not become liquid at _all_ at earth pressures
23:29:48 <itidus20> so assumptions gradually break down into smaller and smaller pieces
23:29:54 <zzo38> Some people say, life creates the universe, instead of the other way around. I say, unverse creates life, however, it doesn't mean that it doesn't create each other. Time is just part of the universe, anyways. And the mathematics of quantum physics and quantum entanglement and superposition and all that stuff, describe it as entangled and stuff including states nonexisting due to not directly part of the universe?
23:30:49 <elliott> hey oerjan Patashu thinks that P=NP is obviously going to turn out to be false, be a fanboy at him >:
23:31:13 <Patashu> man danfred is really something
23:31:39 <elliott> Patashu: (cheap plastic imitation of oerjan: "read Gödel's Last Letter - http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/")
23:31:52 <zzo38> So, what do *you* think about quantum free will? It is a bit different from classical free will, I think.
23:31:59 <elliott> Patashu: you misspelled PN
23:32:34 <itidus20> i am not a buddhist, but I am one who finds buddha regularly offers the most suitable answers about things
23:32:41 <zzo38> Do beans contain the souls of dead people? Perhaps it is but such things would be completely irrelevant. There cannot be a proper "position" anyways
23:32:55 <zzo38> itidus20: Yes they probably do answer some things too
23:33:28 <elliott> zzo38: <DanFred> elliott, only the rotten sobs
23:33:36 <itidus20> the main presupposition of buddhism is rebirth
23:33:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sssssssssssssh don't spoil me
23:34:09 <Patashu> a computer program running on my computer is qualia if I can't serialize it and move it to a different computer
23:34:21 <elliott> Patashu: ah, so @ is anti-qualia
23:34:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is funny because you do not understand how obsessive I am.
23:34:41 <oerjan> elliott: wait what is PN
23:35:02 <elliott> oerjan: like np but more christian
23:36:02 <Patashu> screw #jesus, terraria 1.0.6 is finally out http://www.terrariaonline.com/threads/1-0-6-changelog.50278/
23:36:38 <zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
23:36:41 -!- myndzi has quit.
23:36:48 -!- myndzi has joined.
23:37:03 <elliott> `addquote<zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
23:37:15 <elliott> Patashu: oh terraria is like elliottcraft but crap and with one fewer dimension.
23:37:16 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
23:37:18 <HackEgo> 580) .<.zzo38.>.. Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
23:37:43 <Patashu> elliot less dimensions = worse game
23:37:46 <zzo38> Why do you have CTRL+H in your text? Where did that come from? HackEgo just replaces it with dots
23:38:02 <elliott> Patashu: elliottcraft takes place in 999-dimensional space
23:38:12 <Patashu> make it take place in infinite dimension hilbert space
23:38:30 <sllide> err cubes that are stack based
23:38:38 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
23:38:39 <HackEgo> 580) <zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
23:39:18 <oerjan> elliott: i always get nervous whether irssi will cut/paste multilines properly
23:39:47 <monqy> it does wrapped lines as doublespaces for me, which frustrates
23:39:48 <zzo38> Of course Pythagoras had a few strange religion and this is one of them.
23:39:58 <Patashu> 'Hellstone now spawns lava when it is mined, but only in the underworld.' hardcore
23:39:59 <zzo38> I think he also did not want to touch a mirror.
23:41:01 <zzo38> And had some ideas about astronomy that were wrong but they wouldn't know because they didn't have equipment as well. Such as, that both the sun and the earth go around the "central fire", which is toward the uninhabited side of the Earth.
23:41:39 <elliott> Patashu: actually wait, how is terraria better than df
23:41:45 <elliott> that I sincerely don't get :D
23:42:01 <zzo38> He still called the central fire a planet. And adding other things, resulting in 9 planets in total. So, they decided to add one more to make ten.
23:42:39 <elliott> i guess that game is technically threedee
23:42:41 <elliott> but you only see one at a time
23:42:54 <Patashu> so how can I argue terraria is better than it
23:44:34 <itidus20> so I was reading about the definition of prime numbers and then reading about prime factorization.. and i started to think about it more carefully
23:45:07 <elliott> you didn't know the definition of primes?
23:45:35 <oerjan> itidus20: for more on-topicness, you might want to read about Fractran
23:45:50 <sllide> this is what i came up with http://pastebin.com/EY712Ljy
23:45:58 <sllide> (i am really bad at explaining things)
23:46:00 <itidus20> and I realized that a number with N prime factors cannot be folder into a rectangle in N+1 dimensions, where a rectange is a shape where each dimension of the object is > 1
23:46:36 <elliott> Google summary: Starting from a scientific world view, the mission of the Kira Institute is to foster fresh approaches to exploring “what else is true?”
23:46:38 <elliott> first sentence of webpage:
23:46:39 <elliott> We are an interdisciplinary institute based in Second Life.
23:47:30 <oerjan> before it can be good, it has to be loading
23:47:52 <monqy> sllide: your language specification? that's just the syntax, right?
23:48:42 <oerjan> sllide: the word "cube" usually implies all sides being equal length
23:49:13 <elliott> Sgeo: isn't the trinity catholic doctrine...
23:49:17 <itidus20> sllide, i just referred to such things as rectangles in a very recent post
23:49:19 <Sgeo> What hilarity did I miss in #jesus ?
23:49:27 <elliott> Sgeo: danfred is literally the best
23:49:29 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:49:37 <elliott> Sgeo: #esoteric-jesus is the new hub of discussion
23:49:41 <elliott> NO MOCKING JUST DISCUSSION
23:49:47 <sllide> dot rect doesnt sound so good :(
23:49:48 <elliott> its official mission statement is a channel about jesus not #jesus
23:49:59 <itidus20> i know this is wrong but just a few lines up i said "where a rectangle is a shape where each dimension of the object is > 1"
23:50:41 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:50:54 <sllide> well, i get your point
23:50:55 <itidus20> i thought it was clever though.. but it should be obvious to everyone here
23:50:59 -!- myndzi has joined.
23:51:15 <oerjan> it's a topological product of 3 lines, anyhow ;P
23:51:51 <itidus20> so if you try to take a 1 dimensional number... and create a rectangle with width > 1 and length > 1 and you can't... then it's a prime
23:52:30 <sllide> i just dont like the idea of having more than one character per opcode
23:52:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of astatide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:52:54 <oerjan> itidus20: yeah, assuming integer length sides
23:53:07 <itidus20> oerjan: well.. can you have a non-integer prime? :>
23:53:31 <sllide> and it really isnt a 2d code either
23:53:52 <itidus20> and I realized that a number with N prime factors cannot be folder into a rectangle in N+1 dimensions, where a rectange is a shape where each dimension of the object is > 1
23:54:33 <sllide> ill try to be original tomorrow
23:55:36 <oerjan> sllide: oh i think you mean rectangles, anyhow, this is 2d
23:55:44 <itidus20> i wasn't talking about an esolang
23:56:10 <itidus20> i was just talking about my conception of prime numbers
23:56:12 <sllide> with 2d i mean code getting executing more ways than just down
23:57:47 <itidus20> a number with "at least N prime factors"