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00:00:33 <itidus20> and 1 gets excluded from being a prime factor by the "> 1" bit
00:01:53 <itidus20> do mathematicians ever feel threatened by computers? is it like chess?
00:01:55 <zzo38> Many things work when 1 is not considered prime
00:02:15 <zzo38> Therefore 1 is not prime
00:02:39 <Patashu> 1 will become the greatest prime
00:03:21 <oerjan> itidus20: well eventually computers should reach human level intelligence, at which point _everyone_ might feel threatened. whether higher mathematics research falls long before that, remains to be seen.
00:03:47 * elliott blinks at oerjan displaying an opinion he didn't think oerjan held.
00:04:01 <itidus20> but at least humans have a reason to exist.. humans have the security of knowing they can die
00:04:12 <elliott> itidus20: computers can die too
00:05:00 <itidus20> james cameron obviously felt threatened
00:05:26 <itidus20> the irony being his movie is rendered with computers
00:06:29 <itidus20> on the one hand he issues a grave warning against computers.. and on the other hand he renders a lot of things with them
00:06:46 <monqy> what's ironic about this
00:06:53 <elliott> was Avatar rendered by terminators
00:07:02 <oerjan> elliott: well whether intelligence requires some "soul" component also remains to be seen, but even _so_ it might be achievable by computers unless there really is a carbon-based water solution bias in the universe for it
00:07:07 <elliott> also: is Terminator intended as a serious warning
00:07:22 <itidus20> im pretty sure its a serious warning
00:07:24 <elliott> (granted that media has effects whether it intends" to be serious commentary or not)
00:07:32 <elliott> (but I doubt Cameron thinks skynet is about to happen)
00:07:50 <itidus20> its like... james cameron the real guy.. i think he meant it
00:07:54 <sllide> i will brainstorm alot tomorrow
00:08:04 <elliott> oerjan: so, umm, do you think that neurons will fail if you replicate them in a computer?
00:08:17 <zzo38> Patashu: But that doesn't make 1 prime. What makes 1 not prime is mathematics; how much you trust is not relevant.
00:08:22 <oerjan> it is even possible that the soul component is so subtle that it manages to attach to a computer algorithm without scientists noticing...
00:08:32 <elliott> I removed the assertion that Cameron is an atheist per WP:BLPCAT policy.
00:08:32 <elliott> This is not a matter of opinion but of policy though I know wikipedia also frowns on editors slandering others.
00:08:32 <elliott> --CatholicW (talk) 06:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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00:08:50 <zzo38> oerjan: It is a possible thing to think about philosophically, at least.
00:09:29 <elliott> oerjan: <elliott> oerjan: so, umm, do you think that neurons will fail if you replicate them in a computer?
00:09:30 <oerjan> elliott: i think my previous line indicates i do not assume that they _will_ fail
00:09:30 <itidus20> oerjan: what the books say buddha's view is, is that there are all these questions which we would go crazy trying to answer
00:09:45 <elliott> oerjan: ok so what you are saying is, any emulation of a neuron will have the soul code?
00:09:58 <elliott> oerjan: insert standard "how is this different to neurons just being neurons" argument
00:10:15 <oerjan> any emulation of a correctly assembled brain of neurons, perhaps
00:10:17 <zzo38> I don't think any emulation needs a "soul code", and I am not sure it can work anyways.
00:10:27 <elliott> oerjan: ok, so you could possibly have a soulless neuron emulator?
00:10:33 <zzo38> However, the emulation is not necessarily perfect anyways possibly?
00:10:39 <elliott> oerjan: and then if you (with Science(tm)) scanned someone's brain to gloop up all the neurons
00:10:41 <zzo38> But it is worth a try.
00:10:42 <elliott> and plugged it into the former
00:10:51 <elliott> despite being a correct simulator of a single, soulless neuron?
00:10:58 <elliott> or would the soul be in the scanned neural net
00:11:04 <oerjan> elliott: ah but the soul may not actually be _part_ of the emulator, just something any suitable structure will attach to.
00:11:08 <zzo38> You would change things by measuring it in quantum mechanics so I think it might not work.
00:11:19 <zzo38> Well, it might work.
00:11:21 <zzo38> Just not perfectly.
00:11:22 <elliott> oerjan: ok, so the soul is part of the _process_ of thinking?
00:11:34 <itidus20> is it possible or desirable to take the war out of animals and plants?
00:11:37 <elliott> oerjan: it sounds to me like you're defining a soul to be indistinguishable from "consciousness"
00:11:42 <oerjan> i am imagining a form of dualism, but mediated via some information channel
00:11:45 <elliott> i.e. the byproduct of thinking
00:11:46 <itidus20> the feeding and hunger out of animals and plants?
00:11:56 <oerjan> which brains are evolved to use
00:12:44 <zzo38> itidus20: Then you will be dead how can you eat? Unless, of course, you want to be dead. But if you want to be dead you can jump off a cliff into the navy ship where they will shoot you for target practice
00:12:46 <oerjan> but which might be achievable by any information system with sufficient I/O
00:12:55 <itidus20> and.. if we could take the war out of animals and plants thus creating mechanical living things, and the feeding and hunger and thirst out of animals and plants thus creating mechanical living things...
00:13:14 <monqy> i wish i were a robot
00:13:16 <itidus20> would we not have a means to take the war and feeding and hunger and thirst directly out of animals and plants?
00:13:35 <zzo38> I think you would eventually run out of energy if you tried such things, no matter how hard you tried or how much energy you have.
00:14:25 <itidus20> i mean the fighting instincts from nature
00:14:35 <zzo38> Including people too?
00:14:38 <itidus20> the drive to survive and reproduce and evolve
00:14:44 <Patashu> without the drive to survive
00:14:50 <Patashu> if there is no scarcity and no suffering
00:15:09 <zzo38> You need to have the drive to be dead if you do not want to have the drive to be living. But it is up to your choice.
00:15:26 <zzo38> Your choice can be to not have any children.
00:15:36 <itidus20> also.... just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should
00:15:42 <zzo38> Or, to see how long you can survive while starving to death.
00:15:50 <elliott> Patashu: standard anti-religious argument: you'd go clubbing people to death without god???
00:15:52 <itidus20> just like you would tell a person who planned to burn down your city that they shouldn't do it even if they could
00:16:16 <elliott> Patashu: possible argument against what you're saying: you'd stop doing shit just because scarcity is gone???
00:16:48 <Patashu> if only due to genetic drift and the meme version of it
00:16:52 <oerjan> <itidus20> is it possible or desirable to take the war out of animals and plants? <-- huh i've about that, and my immediate reaction is that we should do it if possible
00:16:53 <elliott> Patashu: so when are you eventually going to start clubbing people?
00:16:56 <Patashu> there's no 'upward pressure'
00:17:12 <itidus20> oerjan: it doesn't work like that
00:17:39 <Patashu> anyway, I still live under scarcity
00:17:39 <itidus20> i shouldn't accuse you of suggesting it does
00:17:52 <elliott> Patashu: but not under god, unless I misunderstand your position
00:17:56 <elliott> Patashu: anyway, in any reasonable such scenario evolution by natural selection would only take place if we wanted it to, and why would we?
00:18:16 <zzo38> oerjan: My immediate reaction is you should not do it if possible. Maybe instead you should do it if it is impossible. Now it is a scientific experiment instead. But be careful please! Don't do it.
00:18:20 <itidus20> the freedom for war is not very much different than the freedom for peace
00:18:31 <itidus20> i am not sure why.. but it seems to be so
00:18:55 <Patashu> elliot, the opposite of evolution by natural selection. evolution with NO natural selection = random drift
00:18:58 <Patashu> since there's no suffering
00:19:04 <itidus20> take war away and you will want it back very soon
00:19:05 <zzo38> It is true; you shouldn't have a war too much, but sometimes they do anyways. So, what can you do? Well, that is very complicated and is why they have the army. But even the army doesn't quite know.
00:19:07 <Patashu> and so negative traits are never punished (because they aren't negative now)
00:19:16 <elliott> Patashu: there is no need for any sort of breeding to happen.
00:19:28 <Patashu> how will you stop people who want to breed?
00:19:46 <elliott> presumably not. people might not want to breed if they understand this, however.
00:20:04 <elliott> and if there's no scarcity, then we can support a zombie population who don't want to do anything just fine, along with a population of people who do want to do things
00:20:13 <zzo38> If nobody is dead, then if everyone is born then there is overpopulation. If nobody is dead or born, then you still need other things too otherwise what can come of anything? You need change of everything all the time at infinite speed of changing.........
00:20:45 <zzo38> It should be the job of mortals to eat the immortals.
00:20:53 <Patashu> the purpose of the human body, mind, personality, quirks etc is to best cope with survival in the environment they evolved in
00:21:01 <Patashu> what does it mean to take all that and place it in a zero scarsity environment?
00:21:06 <oerjan> <itidus20> oerjan: it doesn't work like that <-- how do you know it is not possible to end suffering for all lifeforms on earth, at least for a very long time? it would obviously require a huge redesign of species and ecosystems, and may be beyond our means for centuries or millennia, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it if we do become able
00:21:29 <zzo38> Patashu: It means, you have to make a very small part to make a scientific experiment.
00:22:25 <elliott> Patashu: you think we are controlled entirely by our genetics, etc.?
00:22:31 <Patashu> you can imagine a person playing a game with savestates - with no penalty for death, they make no effort to improve or think through puzzles except by blindly throwing themslves at them
00:22:34 <Patashu> elliot it's always going to be there
00:22:40 <Patashu> it'll always be the base of everything we build onto it
00:22:40 <elliott> not to make personal actions of violence by you, but I guess you go around murdering people who anger you, then?
00:22:43 <Patashu> there HAS to be an initial drive
00:22:45 <oerjan> <itidus20> take war away and you will want it back very soon <-- if you can change organisms enough to "take war away" you can probably change their motivations to desire it that way too
00:23:20 <elliott> Patashu: if you think we can't overcome our base desires etc. ... lol. If you also think that whatever instincts we have even "understand" what lack of scarcity means... lol
00:23:23 <itidus20> the reason i mentioned it is that... in the quest to define a soul... we must remember we are on one side of the equation
00:23:54 <itidus20> whatever can be done to a computer to give it a soul, we can perhaps regress to without losing our soul
00:23:56 <elliott> "so, you see, we have this separate stupid brain that overrides everything we do past a certain point, and acts idiotically about a lack of scarcity. BUT it understands what a lack of scarcity is, despite being the stupidest thing."
00:24:00 <Patashu> imagine a perfectly rational being who can't suffer
00:24:11 <Patashu> the typical disembodied observor with free will and omniscience, right?
00:24:12 <Sgeo> "Just skip to Act 3. That's when the crazy shit starts going down.
00:24:12 <Sgeo> Also, skip Hivebent."
00:24:13 <zzo38> Actually game with savestates, not quite. Because, some people can still try to think about it better. However, if you cannot think of it, you might try something without knowing or just stop and think about it and try again tomorrow.
00:24:27 <elliott> Patashu: you're imagining it, you tell me
00:24:43 <elliott> ok. you arbitrarily decided that.
00:24:46 <Patashu> because there's no punishment or reward system in place
00:24:52 <cheater_> elliott opens his mouth and we're down to social sciences. i sincerely prefer talking about pokemon, ais makes it sound infinitely more interesting.
00:24:54 <elliott> you decided it would have no such system
00:25:01 <itidus20> Patashu: i heard uhmmm whats his name... alan watts explain that if a person did that.. they would gradually work their way back to exactly who they are now
00:25:09 <itidus20> that they would get terribly bored
00:25:16 <elliott> cheater_: actually, oerjan started it this time. then Patashu.
00:25:16 <zzo38> cheater_: I know some things about pokemon, too. I also play Pokemon Card
00:25:21 <itidus20> if they had all the omniscience
00:25:35 <Patashu> zzo38, I'm thinking of raocow, who when he plays with save states all but stops trying to play well
00:25:36 <cheater_> "this time" is not relevant to the trend
00:25:42 <Patashu> so it's not going to be an absolute thing but it's a big factor
00:25:49 <elliott> cheater_: you are the shittiest troll.
00:26:07 <cheater_> zzo38, please rescue this channel from misery and talk about pokemon right away
00:26:27 <cheater_> elliott: nothing bad about being shitty at trolling
00:26:27 <zzo38> Patashu: O, OK. Well, I generally don't play like that.
00:26:40 <zzo38> cheater_: Like, what about pokemon and chess?
00:26:49 <elliott> cheater_: when your modus operandi is trolling there is
00:27:13 <elliott> you're good at avoiding getting banned, but have you considered that this might be eating into your effectiveness as a troll?
00:27:37 <itidus20> cheater_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T_FYsAkhAc&feature=player_detailpage#t=134s
00:28:01 <zzo38> Later on you can consider helping me with this https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/wiki/Dangelo_Programming_Language if you know how, coppro was understanding a bit once I explained in this channel, and I wrote the stuff in there too, some of the things discussed, in "Examples" section.
00:28:03 <cheater_> zzo38, what about a game of chess where if a piece moves onto another one, then the players play a round of pokemon
00:28:26 <cheater_> the person who wins keeps their piece
00:28:37 <itidus20> cheater_: its chess related link
00:28:57 <cheater_> itidus20, interesting, let me have a look
00:28:58 <zzo38> cheater_: OK. I suppose that is possible, if you want to play like that.
00:29:55 <zzo38> Have you ever invented any pokemon card?
00:30:00 <cheater_> zzo38, do you think an amount of strategy could be added to chess this way? e.g. players start out with the same cards, except they play them or don't..
00:30:28 <zzo38> cheater_: Possibly, have some of the cards and chess be correlated somehow
00:30:29 <cheater_> if i invented one it would be an elliott card, and when it levels up it changes into Sgeo
00:30:48 <zzo38> And what would be the effects of the card?
00:30:53 <cheater_> zzo38, i think maybe each piece could allow you to do more/less
00:31:03 <elliott> cheater_: hmm, or actually you _have_ realised that, and are being much more obvious about things
00:31:38 <itidus20> and pokemon related here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2n5aSo32aw
00:31:57 <cheater_> say if your fighting piece is a pawn, you just get 1 card, if your piece is a laufer you get 3 or 4 cards..
00:32:07 <zzo38> cheater_: There are many ways. One way, have pieces affecting rules of cards somewhat and cards affecting chess, and have the kind of pieces being stepping on each other corresponding to what cards you have
00:32:21 <cheater_> but if your pawn is important to your strategy you might want to play a stronger card
00:32:39 <cheater_> how could the cards affect the chess?
00:32:55 <Patashu> go might be a better game than chess
00:32:59 <Patashu> easier to give marginal advantage in
00:33:06 <Patashu> whereas in chess things like capturing and getting an extra move are huge
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00:36:25 <zzo38> Yes. Well, you could also use a larger chess variant, where the different pieces has energy types of pokemon card, and then the trainer cards, etc. I don't know for sure.
00:36:32 <itidus20> what about an RTS on a virtual chessboard?
00:37:09 <itidus20> could starcraft be translated onto a virtual chessboard for example?
00:37:24 <Patashu> there are chess custom maps FOR starcraft
00:37:31 <Patashu> but somehow Idon't think that's what you mean
00:37:54 <zzo38> There are many chess variants, including Xiangqi and Shogi as well.
00:38:00 <itidus20> well, by virtual chessboard I mean that using a computer you can achieve certain tricks easily like having hidden squares
00:38:03 <Patashu> there are some very large chess variants
00:38:09 <Patashu> like a variant where every piece is a chessboard
00:38:20 <Patashu> and you make moves on the smaller chessboard to unlock that piece's ability to capture (if you win)
00:38:32 <Patashu> it was on chess variants dot org
00:39:15 <itidus20> so.. first you would have the starcraftian idea of only being able to see parts of the map which you build near
00:39:33 <Patashu> since starcraft is played on a square co-ordinate system
00:39:37 <Patashu> you could translate it to a very large chessboard
00:39:39 <Patashu> but it's just a semantic thing
00:39:44 <Patashu> you're not changing anything
00:40:05 <itidus20> well it could be turn based perhaps
00:40:49 <itidus20> i was wrong to say RTS.. because it would just be starcraft
00:40:50 <Patashu> you miss the point of starcraft
00:41:29 <itidus20> ok so.. 1) multiple pieces can move per turn 2) can only see parts of the map which your units are near
00:41:43 <itidus20> 3) some units take a long time to go to an adjacent square
00:41:46 <Patashu> there are turn based games like that
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00:42:06 <itidus20> you might have say.. "This unit is very heavy, it will take 5 turns to move to the adjacent square"
00:42:08 <Patashu> but you can't make a turn based game out of starcraft b/c you'll need to completely change the balance and all the mechanics that expect your reaction time/co-ordination ability to be limited
00:42:47 <oerjan> <itidus20> 3) some units take a long time to go to an adjacent square <-- this + today's iwc gives me the idea of a board game where some pieces go backwards in time
00:43:16 <itidus20> i havent really played starcraft.. just watched my brother play it a bit
00:43:18 <oerjan> we'll just need ais523 to implement feather and then we can find out how it works
00:43:34 <Patashu> oerjan, have you heard of the game achron?
00:43:52 <Patashu> http://www.chessvariants.com/diffmove.dir/timetravel.html
00:44:41 <Patashu> http://www.achrongame.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=29&sid=b7f3fd8b0f925fba406e706736e156e6
00:45:15 <Patashu> in particular look at achronal chess and achronal roguelike
00:45:46 <Patashu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErutMnueM2g Wow, this looks awesome lol
00:45:57 <Patashu> I bet there's a broken winning strategy though
00:47:52 <Patashu> like if you create that space filling diamond
00:47:56 <Lymee> Build a spacefiller?
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00:58:10 <cheater_> zzo38, what about cards simply disabling some pieces from attacking other pieces? many strategies would be disabled this way
00:58:37 <Patashu> so you can't use it to win easily
00:58:43 <cheater_> if a piece is untouchable it's a good weapon
00:58:45 <Patashu> could use it to make a push otherwise impossible
00:59:01 <itidus20> cheater_: as i grow up and get more cynical and bitter... i find i don't enjoy some games as much as i once did
00:59:41 <itidus20> I suppose that the key element is that a game has room to allow someone to have fun if they are in the mood to have fun.
01:00:41 <itidus20> the game never actually contains the fun... the fun is always the player's responsibility
01:00:54 <zzo38> cheater_: Yes you could have a chess variant where some cards disable some pieces and stuff like that
01:01:12 <cheater_> itidus20, this story is heart-warming
01:01:32 <Patashu> what special powers could stones have?
01:01:53 <itidus20> cheater_: I used to love pokemon
01:02:05 <Patashu> 'wow, this is a lot of work'
01:02:12 <itidus20> I was angry at a magazine when they made fun of pikachu on the cover
01:02:15 <Patashu> and now I am a young adult
01:02:45 <cheater_> we used to have a kid at school that we named pikachu
01:02:58 <cheater_> we did so to make fun out of him
01:03:26 <itidus20> one of my best friends in high school got nicknamed screech like in saved by the bell
01:04:22 <itidus20> im australian.. you might just be european or something
01:04:40 <itidus20> but if you're american... then the only explanation is young age
01:05:11 <itidus20> don't get me wrong i love europe
01:05:56 <cheater_> or maybe i'm just someone who doesn't watch many movies, regardless of where i come from
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01:21:13 <Lymee> Patashu, that game of life thing is interesting.
01:21:56 <Lymee> You can take cells that are already out on the field and add them to your pool, leading to "how the hell do you have so many blocks aaa"
01:22:13 <Lymee> Things happening behind the front line are pretty much useless, sooo
01:26:07 <Lymee> Blinkers can do some serious damage if not interfered with
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01:28:00 <Sgeo> What game of life thing?
01:28:18 <Lymee> http://www.java4k.com/index.php?action=games&method=view&gid=190
01:28:34 <Lymee> I kinda want to try and code a multiplayer version now.
01:29:29 <Patashu> In chrome, when a flash widget has focus, hitting backspace acts like hitting the back button on chrome
01:30:08 <zzo38> In Pokemon Card GB2, although HYPNO [Lv30]'s attack ignores weak/resist, the computer opponent doesn't know that! Yet, it does in fact ignore weak/resist.
01:32:17 <itidus20> Who are you calling a cantelope you melonhead?
01:35:51 <elliott> guys should i be rational or irrational today
01:36:45 <oerjan> elliott: irrational but algebraic
01:36:54 <Lymee> Patashu, yeah, the size of spacefillers makes me think that you arn't going to be building a spacefiller anytime soon.
01:37:06 <elliott> oerjan: hELP this is ocnfonsugin
01:37:16 <Patashu> what if it was turn based?
01:37:26 <monqy> 18:38:33 < Sgeo> R.I.P. Sgeo?
01:37:40 <oerjan> ^unscramble ocnfonsugin
01:38:04 <Gregor> http://www.mobileread.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75336&d=1312936864 <-- I have turned my e-book reader into the world's worst tablet PC :P
01:38:07 <Sgeo> ^unscramble geo
01:38:13 <Sgeo> ^unscramble sgeo
01:38:18 <Sgeo> ^unscramble sgeo
01:38:36 <elliott> oerjan: and _I_ invented it
01:38:40 <Lymee> Patashu, that.. that might actually be a more fun variant.
01:38:50 <elliott> Gregor: Sorry that looks like the world's best??
01:38:53 <Sgeo> ^unscramble sgeotlhd
01:38:54 <Lymee> X run cycles, then a placement cycle?
01:39:04 <elliott> Gregor: Additionally cut your nails
01:39:07 <Gregor> elliott: The processor is fine ... the screen is ... slow :P
01:39:22 <Gregor> elliott: I don't cut my thumbnail, but I cut the rest. My cat appreciates it :P
01:40:01 <Lymee> ^scramble 0123456789
01:40:05 <Lymee> ^scramble 01234567890
01:40:29 <elliott> Lymee: it is simply: copy two, move cursor to middle
01:40:32 <Lymee> ^scramble 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
01:40:45 * elliott waits for oerjan to provide an elegant zipper implementation based on that description
01:40:46 <oerjan> elliott: but afair i wrote it in brainfuck
01:44:43 <oerjan> !haskell scramble = scr [] []; scr z1 z2 (x:y:r) = scr (x:z1) (y:z2) r; scr z1 z2 l = reverse z1 ++ l ++ z2 in scramble "0123456789"
01:44:54 <Patashu> in the windows entertainment pack there's a two player game of life
01:44:55 <oerjan> > let scramble = scr [] []; scr z1 z2 (x:y:r) = scr (x:z1) (y:z2) r; scr z1 z2 l = reverse z1 ++ l ++ z2 in scramble "0123456789"
01:44:58 <Patashu> some cells are blue some are red
01:45:04 <Patashu> on your turn you add a cell of your colour then delete a cell
01:45:06 <Patashu> and your opponent does the same
01:45:08 <Patashu> then one generation happens
01:45:16 <Patashu> the first person to have only their colour wins
01:46:22 <elliott> oerjan: beautiful. however i see no zippers.
01:46:39 <oerjan> z1 and z2 are the zipper
01:46:53 <oerjan> admittedly i'm not using recursion to unwind it
01:47:29 <oerjan> also it's probably nicer without a true zipper
01:48:04 <oerjan> > let scramble = scr []; scr z (x:y:r) = x : scr (y:z) r; scr z l = l ++ z in scramble "0123456789"
02:03:45 <oerjan> zzo38: i found the http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck#Brainfuck_in_ZZT discussion, and i wondered, is your nick related to ZZT?
02:05:36 <oerjan> wow it's really pouring down
02:06:13 <oerjan> IMPOSSIBLE, YOU'RE ENGLISH
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02:36:13 <elliott> oerjan: you would be the best person to ask about GHC memory details, right :D
02:36:57 <oerjan> er have i left that impression somehow
02:39:18 <elliott> oerjan: in "data X = forall a. X { f :: IO a, g :: a -> IO (), h :: a -> IO Size }", it should be no bigger than the size of the pointers to the three functions f, g, and h (with the a type filled in), plus padding, right?
02:39:37 <elliott> obviously with a typeclass context it would store the dictionary
02:40:01 <elliott> or, hmm, that only works in one field... but anyway, i think i make sense?
02:42:10 <oerjan> there might be a tag field anyhow
02:42:24 <oerjan> even if there's just one possible value for it
02:42:24 <elliott> oerjan: hmm well right that's fine
02:42:43 <elliott> oerjan: more importantly, an Any is no bigger than a standard pointer, right?
02:42:49 <elliott> (I EXPECT PRECISE ANSWERS, NO GUESSING)
02:43:34 <oerjan> i believe all boxed, lazy values have the same pointer size and _must_ have so in order to work with polymorphic functions
02:44:18 <elliott> oerjan: so in conclusion...
02:44:26 <elliott> test :: X -> Any -> IO Size
02:44:35 <elliott> test X{..} = h . unsafeCoerce
02:45:08 <elliott> should look the same, memory and operation (i.e. performance) wise, as an application of h to a specific specialisation of the a type variable, correct?
02:45:15 <elliott> modulo a slightly bigger pointer, perhaps
02:45:32 <elliott> basically the thing is that "f" and "g" might be called an awful lot
02:45:44 <oerjan> after all you can write test (X f g h) = do a <- f; (,) <$> g a <$> h a
02:45:59 <elliott> I don't want to use a typeclass since the only sane way would be via an existential, which would carry around the typeclass baggage for every single a value
02:46:18 <elliott> data ReifyDict a where Dict :: (Class a) => ReifyDict a
02:46:21 <oerjan> and test can know nothing about any special representation for a
02:46:26 <elliott> but that's just ridiculous since it reduces to a three-argument record
02:50:25 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, I just realised that my main question came down to "is unsafeCoerce expensive" :D
02:50:38 <oerjan> that seems ... unlikely :P
02:51:01 <Sgeo> Didn't read it yet, browser's being slow
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03:15:02 <zzo38> oerjan: Is my nick related to ZZT? Sort of. There is actually a long story describing how the name "zzo38" came out
03:15:18 <itidus20> as every good nick should have
03:16:08 <oerjan> in the deep forests of canada...
03:16:57 <zzo38> But, yes, ZZT is part of it.
03:17:20 <oerjan> a geek must attempt to get connection using only a barbed wire and a pack of chewing gum
03:17:37 <oerjan> the wire happens to be electrified
03:18:35 <itidus20> not too far away from an enclave of conspiracy theorists who, as a result of being neighbours with USA for so long, were quite suspicious, up a tree watching down at some wild boars roaming past, sat a young zzo38
03:20:42 <itidus20> Though that was not yet his name...
03:20:47 <oerjan> hm boars are not native to the americas, but have been introduced
03:21:04 <itidus20> I don't know I just wanted to send some fun animals past
03:22:46 <itidus20> i admit that "a loud ZZOT is heard" is more creative than what I typed
03:23:01 <itidus20> I tried to use brute force to be creative
03:31:55 <elliott> monqy: i was trying to define a dataflow programming model where it was impossible to construct something that depended on the order that its inputs arrived
03:31:57 <oerjan> no no, how does a doe sflow its work
03:32:28 <elliott> you couldn't make Z output something different if Y arrived point one ms after X
03:32:41 <elliott> the idea being that it's always safe to parallelise
03:32:51 <elliott> because you can't observe time at the lowest level
03:33:02 <elliott> i tried to model a simple mutable reference...............
03:33:04 <elliott> and i couldn't....................
03:33:18 <elliott> it ended up depending on order to know whether it was being overriden by a constant (which you'd do to initialise it)
03:35:10 <elliott> Actually I no longer think native c-based continuations are strictly essential for real input manipulation, I think it is possible to use continuation passing style and e to avoid them. --Ørjan 02:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
03:35:13 <elliott> thank god oerjan updated us on that
03:35:17 <elliott> ive been on the edge of my seat for four years
03:35:30 <oerjan> i _have_ mentioned it on the channel before
03:36:15 <oerjan> i just got the idea to reread Talk:Unlambda after i had read Talk:Brainfuck so i saw that conversation again
03:36:47 <oerjan> so i thought i'd leave an update
03:37:06 <elliott> oerjan: so do you have any ideas on my dataflow question ;D; ;D ;D
03:37:11 <elliott> hlep my eyes e re everywhere
03:37:55 <monqy> i donte evenm wknow why you'd need this dafatlow???
03:38:13 <monqy> nor how to make time-order matter help
03:38:17 <oerjan> HELP THE CHANNEL IS INVADED BY YOUTUBE SPELLERS
03:39:00 <elliott> monqy: datataafalow, i am trying to, think of, programming languages, that are esoteric, but also, because, parallelism is hard?
03:41:15 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Parallel; main = do forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); forkIO (putStr "dataflow")
03:41:16 <monqy> oh you want to make it impossible I missed the im ha-ha
03:42:12 <monqy> oerjan: forkio not in scope or some other error?
03:42:17 <monqy> elliott: in im possible
03:42:28 <oerjan> invalid syntax, no idea why
03:42:29 <elliott> monqy: right...so.... i need.... hlep... probably from oerjan
03:42:36 <elliott> oerjan: need {} around do body
03:42:59 <oerjan> um that should _not_ be necessary
03:43:12 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Parallel; main = do { forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); forkIO (putStr "dataflow") }
03:43:47 <monqy> now is it about forkio or what
03:43:51 <elliott> oerjan: because the ; terminates the main definition
03:43:56 <elliott> oerjan: because your _module_ is non-layout
03:44:02 <elliott> so you need to denote nesting explicitly
03:44:09 <elliott> just like you can't say "do do x; y; z"
03:44:13 <oerjan> um no it doesn't, do introduces layout
03:44:17 <elliott> well maybe you can but it won't do what you want
03:44:27 <elliott> oerjan: i am... pretty sure it does
03:44:32 <elliott> oerjan: you cannot introduce layout inside a non-layout block, correct?
03:44:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `m a' against inferred type `Expr'
03:44:41 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b a1. (Monad m, ?x::m a, ?y::m a1, ?z::m b) => m b
03:44:48 <elliott> !haskell import Control.Parallel; main = do forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); unmain = forkIO (putStr "dataflow")
03:45:05 <oerjan> elliott: well that's different. i had no further definitions after main
03:45:15 <monqy> Control.Concurrent right
03:45:17 <elliott> oerjan: um i do not think haskell has an infinite-lookahea grammar in that sense
03:45:31 <monqy> I have been waiting for whole minutes to guess that forkIO is in concurrent instead of parallell
03:46:04 <oerjan> elliott: it doesn't. you need { } if there is a ; _after_ the do block
03:47:15 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do { forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); forkIO (putStr "dataflow") }
03:47:38 <monqy> it is like a babbling baby
03:47:45 <monqy> !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do { forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); forkIO (putStr "dataflow") }
03:47:57 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do { forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); putStr "dataflow" }
03:48:20 <oerjan> the program ends before the forkIO runs out
03:48:36 <elliott> !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do { forkOS (putStr "dataflow"); putStr "dataflow" }
03:48:46 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); putStr "dataflow"
03:48:51 <zzo38> Can you do continuation passing in Haskell?
03:49:30 <monqy> zzo38: manually write in continuation-passing style, use the Cont monad, others????
03:49:33 <elliott> zzo38: naturally. that's how the Cont monad works.
03:50:13 <zzo38> I didn't know the Cont monad thanks
03:51:42 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: you cannot introduce layout inside a non-layout block, correct? <-- you most certainly can. also i sincerely doubt that !haskell puts any module where { } around stuff, so it should be layout anyway
03:53:26 <oerjan> it's not infinite lookahead, it's just that the innermost block is greedy as long as possible
03:53:44 <zzo38> After "module ... where" I think you need neither layout nor { } it still works without that
03:53:49 <oerjan> i have no idea why i got a syntax error on the first attempt
03:54:29 <oerjan> zzo38: you don't need indentation, no, but it's still technically a block, just aligned at beginning of line
03:55:25 <oerjan> it's the layout of it which makes it possible to start new declarations at beginning of line without using ;
03:56:22 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so. Would it be unambiguous even if you omitted the line breaks?
03:56:41 <oerjan> without line breaks, ; is required
03:57:25 <oerjan> and you might need some { } in inner blocks to ensure ;'s are applied at the right level
03:57:51 <oerjan> actually there are other reasons to use { }
03:58:14 * elliott never uses {} in real code
03:58:23 <oerjan> > do x <- [1,2]; [x,x] ++ [5]
03:58:29 <elliott> Omegamega uses them exclusively though. also that spj paper about stablenames.
03:58:34 <oerjan> > do { x <- [1,2]; [x,x] } ++ [5]
03:58:46 <zzo38> What is Omegamega?
03:59:16 <oerjan> of course for do expressions you can use ordinary parentheses instead
03:59:28 <oerjan> > (do x <- [1,2]; [x,x] ) ++ [5]
03:59:30 <elliott> zzo38: fax's joke name for Ωmega
03:59:46 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A9mega (gross conflation of language and implementation on this page)
03:59:52 <elliott> http://code.google.com/p/omega/
04:00:35 <oerjan> * elliott never uses {} in real code <-- yeah it's only for some bot one liners you need it
04:02:09 <zzo38> But {} would probably be useful in "do" notation and such stuff like that, most commands that need layout, it would be useful to use with, I think. But I think in general not use "do" notation, I just prefer using other commands instead, I guess.
04:02:25 <zzo38> But sometimes I don't know very well, I still don't know a lot of stuff about Haskell
04:02:57 <oerjan> well do notation is only syntactic sugar, so a matter of taste
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04:03:55 <zzo38> Yes, I know, the same things can be written with or without "do"
04:04:17 <zzo38> What are all the commands in Haskell that use layout?
04:04:57 <oerjan> case ... of ..., ... where ..., let ..., do ...
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04:05:58 <oerjan> mdo ... (deprecated) and possibly rec ... (it's replacement) from the monad recursion extensions
04:06:12 <oerjan> oh and proc ... for arrows, i think
04:06:21 <oerjan> maybe others i haven't heard of
04:06:33 <oerjan> only the first line is without extensions
04:07:09 <oerjan> basically the report says that blocks are introduced by the of, where, let and do keywords
04:09:27 <zzo38> The license for Omega is different in the page linked from Wikipedia and in the repository in Google Code. But clearly the page linked on Wikipedia links to the older license from 2005
04:09:46 <zzo38> Also, Wikipedia says "License: Copyrighted" which is too vague
04:10:53 <zzo38> But now I corrected it
04:13:00 <zzo38> I have just once, for a single purpose, used a window transparency program. This slowed down the program a lot but still helped. Do you know what purpose this is?
04:13:10 <elliott> oerjan: help how do i mutable reference in my dataflow
04:19:55 <oerjan> hm how can this order independence even work
04:20:03 <oerjan> say you implement a xor gate
04:20:17 <oerjan> and the inputs change from 00 to 11
04:20:32 <elliott> oerjan: note that the _value_ of a signal and whether it is _sending_ or not differ
04:20:51 <oerjan> how do you know whether output should stay 0 or be temporary 1 in between
04:21:15 <elliott> oerjan: that just means you cannot do a XOR gate (but this doesn't mean you can't do a _logical_ xor gate)
04:21:35 <elliott> basically, the primitive gate operations are like "forward N inputs to N outputs if all of them are sending, otherwise forward none"
04:21:56 <elliott> (I think it is OK to have an order dependence on _ceasing_ to send)
04:22:28 <elliott> (but if not, then it can then simply be defined to e.g. keep forwarding them until _no_ inputs are on)
04:22:32 <elliott> (that introduces state, though)
04:22:59 <elliott> oerjan: I'm not sure these primitives are useful, but... obviously you can do anything "purely functional" with them
04:23:04 <elliott> because they don't care about synchronisation or anything
04:23:14 <elliott> you just wire up the expression tree
04:23:39 <elliott> the idea is that you'd be able to look at a circuit and _avoid computing_ certain things because the things they're plugged into aren't interested in them
04:23:49 <elliott> i.e. starting to send a signal would not change the rest of the circuit
04:24:01 <elliott> and I think without that you'd end up computing a bunch of things you don't need all the time??
04:24:19 <elliott> but basically I cannot figure out how to construct a simple mutable reference where you can get the value out of it as a signal and then modify that value
04:24:59 <elliott> but it has to follow the laws
04:26:09 <elliott> it has two inputs, O and V
04:26:52 <elliott> when O is on, it lies dormant until V is sending, then reads the value it's receiving, repeatedly, and forwards it on
04:27:01 <elliott> i.e., if O is on, it's a simple identity gate
04:27:18 <elliott> but if O is _off_, then it stores the value it's currently sending internally
04:27:23 <elliott> and just sending off that constant value
04:27:34 <elliott> (or not-sending-at-all, if that's what it was doing when O was on)
04:27:41 <elliott> the question is, does this violate the ordering rule wrt O and V
04:27:58 <elliott> I think it might, because if V's value changes from X to Y in zero point one ms
04:28:05 <elliott> and O takes between zero point one and zero point two ms to change
04:28:19 <elliott> then whichever arrives first changes the value it's sendinh
04:28:35 <elliott> I feel this might be an innate problem; I think what I'm trying to do is guarantee that there are no timing issues
04:28:45 <elliott> and the only way to do that by totally forbidding any knowledge of time is to forbid state from changing
04:28:54 <elliott> except I can have, like, something that just outputs the integers in sequence forever
04:28:59 <elliott> it's a specific kind of state that can't change
04:29:12 <elliott> and I think it means you can't construct something that outputs the integers in sequence forever _without it being a primitive_
04:29:17 <elliott> because it would depend on ordering
04:42:34 <elliott> or the model could be perfect
04:42:53 <elliott> with the same primitives as haskell
04:43:01 <elliott> that you must use at least one mutable cell
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04:54:59 <elliott_> In 7th grade, I was one of the last two people in my grammar school's spelling bee. They gave me the word 'tutu' (I'm a boy). Of course I spelled it wrong, as I had never even seen the word on paper. In your professional opinion, do you think that's cheap and/or rigged?
04:55:22 <elliott_> they gave me the word tutu (im a boy)
04:55:47 <pikhq_> ... How can you not know tutu?
04:56:22 <pikhq_> What, would that be too potentially gay or some shit?
04:58:36 <elliott_> im trying to figure out what this is for
04:58:41 <elliott_> does it send all the filled in things to the policy
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05:03:22 <elliott> back to thinking about being polymorphic on laziness/strictness
05:03:31 <elliott> sits here until oerjan asks what he means
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05:05:45 * oerjan whistles a merry little tune
05:06:57 <elliott> bits oerjan's head off, digests
05:08:39 * elliott attempts to figure out what................................... names are
05:11:08 <oerjan> a sweet by any other rose would smell as name
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05:35:26 <zzo38> It is late here, and yet coppro's timezone is just three hours ahead of me, so it would be time to sleep over there too.
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05:44:39 <evincar> So I read the article on Funciton today. It's rather polished.
05:45:16 <evincar> Now I'm thinking of writing basically a 2D Lisp.
05:45:25 <monqy> would it be a good 2d lisp
05:46:09 <evincar> It could be a goody two-lisp.
05:47:27 <elliott> help monqy what should i call this languag ehelp
05:47:38 <evincar> There's so much room for development in >1D languages, but they're such a pain to edit.
05:47:49 <zzo38> When looking at the display of my calculator using these movie glasses, wearing them forward results in seeing the display fine in one lens and blocked in the other lens. Rotating does not change anything. When wearing the glasses backward, which lens it is visible though and which is blocked depends on the angle of rotation.
05:48:04 <elliott> like haskell... but different.....
05:49:26 <monqy> like zepto but...smaler
05:50:50 <monqy> lots of names are taken but they were probably bad names anyway
05:51:01 <monqy> and I am bad at names
05:51:55 <monqy> is haskel (not haskell; haskel) a good name
05:52:45 <evincar> elliott: Find a person from history who's awesome and probably wouldn't approve of their name being used for this thing if they were alive.
05:53:04 <elliott> i will call my language Jesus
05:53:18 <monqy> name your language
05:53:18 <zzo38> On the Nintendo DS display, wearing the glasses forward results in one lens changing the color between blue and white depending on rotation, and the other changing between yellow and white depending on rotation. When wearing backward, both lenses change the color between red, green, and white, depending on rotation.
05:53:31 <evincar> Why not Xesus? Because Xs are cool (see the 90s).
05:53:32 <monqy> your language has a first name
05:54:14 <evincar> Or Gss (plural of Gs, pronounced "Jeezes").
05:54:23 <elliott> i will name my language evincar
05:54:36 <evincar> As long as you don't pronounce it right, that's fine.
05:54:51 <evincar> My actual nick should technically be evinçar or evincer.
05:55:38 <evincar> An ev-inker. Someone who inks evs.
05:55:57 <evincar> I should change it to evincdr.
05:58:21 <elliott> ok #jesus is my favourite work of fiction
05:58:26 <elliott> it's like the most complex drama
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06:15:20 <evincar> I'm disappointed. Didn't pay attention to this channel for fifteen whole minutes and all I get is two lines from elliott? Bah.
06:15:47 <evincar> Is there an existing generalisation of type systems?
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06:16:22 <evincar> Say, continuations : flow control :: what : type systems
06:17:06 <evincar> Any time there's literature on something, I prefer not to re-invent the wheel.
06:17:22 <evincar> Unfortunately I end up in unexplored territory far too often these days.
06:17:28 <evincar> I guess that's the point of doing a Ph.D.
06:17:36 <pikhq_> evincar: Sounds like either unexplored territory or edging on it.
06:18:16 <Patashu> continuation type systems?
06:18:27 <pikhq_> Patashu: It means you're underthinking it.
06:19:10 <evincar> Patashu: I mean, continuations generalise flow control, in the same way that S-expressions generalise program structure, in the same way that macros generalise syntax. Is there a similar abstraction for types?
06:19:23 <evincar> I'm not speaking strictly Lisp here, but close.
06:19:50 <pikhq_> I doubt you mean "type classes" or other forms of, essentially, providing more general types, here.
06:19:59 <evincar> Right, that's working within the system.
06:20:19 <evincar> I mean, you can (relatively) easily write Lisp macros that implement strong typing.
06:20:22 <pikhq_> (or more specific, either...)
06:20:32 <evincar> But I feel like that's a cop-out.
06:20:45 <evincar> Sure, everything boils down to rewriting eventually.
06:21:09 <evincar> But I mean, what are the primitives from which a type system is constructed?
06:21:46 <pikhq_> What are the primitives from which a proof is constructed?
06:22:00 <evincar> Axioms, and theorems derived from axioms. :P
06:22:16 <pikhq_> There's your answer, I suppose.
06:22:18 <evincar> The most vacuous response I can manage.
06:22:48 <evincar> I guess what bothers me is that types imbue values with meaning, so you can't have a value without (implicit or explicit) type.
06:22:51 <coppro> evincar: a bunch of values and a relation on those values
06:22:56 <pikhq_> Except that type systems generally aren't specified in terms of their axioms.
06:23:18 <coppro> types are just sets of values, usually constratined in some fashion
06:23:42 <evincar> I guess you could formulate "a type describes a size, alignment, and either signedness or floatness" as your axioms.
06:23:54 <evincar> Then derive constraints from those axioms.
06:24:00 <pikhq_> evincar: Well, types are proofs.
06:24:07 <coppro> your set of values forms a complete partial order
06:25:00 <evincar> I don't see types in terms of set theory. I see sets as emergent behaviour or secondary restrictions on types.
06:25:25 <coppro> evincar: dude, type thoery
06:25:28 <evincar> The natural numbers emerge from an unbounded unsigned integral type.
06:25:33 <coppro> I'm going to continue repeating this
06:25:41 <coppro> because there exists a branch of mathematics
06:25:52 <coppro> remarkably, it is the theory of types
06:26:02 <coppro> and you're pulling a Sgeo here
06:26:53 <evincar> What, by being practical? :P
06:28:24 <coppro> no, by saying "I wonder what happens if X?"
06:28:29 <coppro> and hearing "it's been done"
06:28:40 <coppro> and going "Maybe it involves Y?"
06:28:48 <coppro> and hearing "No, it doesn't."
06:28:53 <coppro> and going "If it had Y, you'd need Z"
06:29:02 <coppro> and hearing "Maybe, but it doesn't have Y."
06:29:02 <evincar> I didn't say "if X" to begin with, though.
06:29:24 <evincar> I said "is there such a thing as a primitive of type systems?"
06:29:45 <evincar> A generalisation under which type systems can be constructed.
06:29:56 <coppro> it is called type theory
06:32:44 <evincar> So the operation that defines a type system is...?
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10:44:58 <Taneb> The capital-F Future has turned out kinda lame, hasn't it?
10:47:33 <Taneb> My homies are all up
10:52:44 <CakeProphet> time to watch Dexter and forget about how I feel.
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11:29:26 <Taneb> A haiku in brainfuck:
11:31:40 <Taneb> Comma, bracket, stop
11:31:51 <Taneb> Comma, close bracket, plus, plus
11:31:56 <Taneb> Minus, minus, plus
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11:46:00 <Taneb> Does anyone mind if I make a language called "I hate your 'I hate your bf-derivative I really do' I really do"?
11:47:44 <fizzie> Probably not, but that sort of thing is liable to escalate, and then you run out of different quote-like characters.
11:48:48 <Taneb> MIBBLLIS isn't brainfuck but looks like it is?
11:50:58 <Taneb> It's going to use B,C,K,W combinatory logic
11:52:02 <Taneb> Which stands for Yes It Is
11:52:53 <NihilistDandy> That's the first Python reference I've made since I made fun of shitty interpreted languages
11:53:09 <Taneb> Which stands for "TIARA Is A Recursive Algorithm"
11:54:26 <Deewiant> I thought you'd say s/Algorithm/Acronym/
11:54:42 <Taneb> Yeah, that's what I meant
11:55:38 <NihilistDandy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_acronym#Notable_examples
11:56:00 <NihilistDandy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_acronym#Non-technical_examples
11:56:27 <Taneb> I'll stick with MIBBLLII
12:00:54 <Taneb> In MIBBLLII, > and < are IO
12:03:25 <Taneb> <> takes a single bit of input and prints it
12:04:15 <Taneb> I never said which order
12:05:39 <Taneb> > takes a bit from input and returns . if that bit is 1 and .,. if that bit is 0
12:05:40 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
12:06:36 <Taneb> , a b returns a b b
12:06:44 <Taneb> and . a b returns a
12:10:00 <Taneb> + a b c returns a [b c]
12:10:10 <Taneb> - a b c returns a c b
12:10:21 <Taneb> [ and ] are for grouping
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12:10:27 <Taneb> This is Turing Complete
12:10:44 <fizzie> "TITC is Turing Complete"?
12:12:03 <Taneb> TITCBIWSKICC is Turing Complete by isomorphism with SKI combinatory calculus
12:13:00 <Taneb> pronounced titsee-bio-skee-see-see
12:14:33 <fizzie> TITC as-is sounds like some sort of C variant where all the arithmetic types have been replaced by one that holds a single ternary digit.
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12:16:23 <Taneb> S = +[+[+,]-][++] = +[+,][++-]
12:18:15 <Taneb> I cannot believe ICBIINB is not brainfuck?
12:19:27 <NihilistDandy> fizzie: I was thinking TITC was just a sexually frustrated C variant
12:19:55 <Taneb> Actually, MIIBBLLII
12:22:37 <Lymee> Taneb, how does that code work? o.o
12:22:48 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B,C,K,W_system
12:23:22 <PatashuWarg> I'm pretty sure you can't discover maths guys
12:23:46 <Taneb> He found it in his doctoral thesis Grundlagen der kombinatorischen Logik
12:23:55 <Taneb> It was there all along and no-one knew
12:24:02 <Taneb> I'm going to have lunch now, bye
12:24:24 <CakeProphet> Taneb: the problem is that SKI doesn't compute bytes.
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12:26:25 <CakeProphet> yes, the problem is that in order for it to work correctly ,. has to input and output a bf program.
12:27:45 <sllide> why is brainfuck so popular?
12:29:20 <PatashuWarg> also, because its specification is tiny but working with it is hugely difficult, it's easy to write a compiler/interpreter for and it's still turing complete
12:29:40 <fizzie> Also, it has a dirty word like right there in the name.
12:29:46 <CakeProphet> it's a very minimal model of a Turing machine, yet it's considered "esoteric" because of its unusual programs.
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13:16:12 <fizzie> /win some, /lose some.
13:20:06 <Lymee> https://gist.github.com/1136780
13:20:10 <Lymee> I had way too much time on my hands.
13:20:23 <Lymee> Guess how evil.py works.
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13:39:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of ununseptide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's disputed whether ununseptium would be a halogen, but I don't think anyone actually cares.)
13:40:32 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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14:00:53 <CakeProphet> hmmm, so you could use unsafeCoerce to artificially change the phantom type of a GADT, right?
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14:23:18 <Taneb> Mice are mammals too
14:25:20 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+12,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple
14:25:22 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.32634: line 1: 32642 Segmentation fault python
14:25:32 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+20,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple
14:25:33 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.32692: line 1: 32699 Segmentation fault python
14:26:01 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+20,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple[0]==tuple
14:26:02 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
14:26:20 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+12,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple[0]==tuple
14:26:21 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.374: line 1: 381 Segmentation fault python
14:26:36 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+24,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple[0]==tuple
14:26:37 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.437: line 1: 444 Segmentation fault python
14:26:55 <Taneb> !python print "!python print \"test\""
14:27:28 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(u_void_p(id(tuple)+24),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple
14:27:29 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
14:27:44 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+24),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple
14:27:44 <Taneb> Well, EgoBot doesn't call itself
14:27:45 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.653: line 1: 660 Segmentation fault python
14:27:53 <Taneb> Also its version of Python is earlier than 3.0
14:28:02 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+38),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple
14:28:21 <Lymee> !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+40),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple
14:29:08 <Lymee> !python exec """from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,)\nfor x in range(5):\n memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+24+8*x),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple"""
14:29:09 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.878: line 1: 885 Segmentation fault python
14:29:26 <Lymee> !python exec """from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,)\nfor x in range(5):\n memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+32+8*x),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple"""
14:29:46 <Lymee> !python exec """from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,)\nfor x in range(5):\n memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+32+8*x),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print id(tuple[0])"""
14:30:06 <Lymee> !python exec """from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,)\nfor x in range(5*8):\n memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+32+x),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print id(tuple[0])"""
14:30:21 <Lymee> Yeah, this isn't working. =p
14:31:01 <Lymee> !c #include <python2.6/Python.c>
14:32:27 <Lymee> !c #include <python2.6/Python.c> int main() {PyFunctionObject f;printf("%u",((unsigned int)&(f.ob_item))-((unsigned int)&f));}
14:32:58 <Lymee> `run echo "#include <python2.6/Python.c> " > test.c
14:33:15 <Lymee> `run echo "int main() {PyFunctionObject f;printf(\"%u\",((unsigned int)&(f.ob_item))-((unsigned int)&f));}" > test.c
14:33:20 <Lymee> `run gcc -o test test.c
14:33:28 <HackEgo> 1 \ babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp \ tmpdir.1749 \ warez \ тэкст
14:33:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20696
14:33:43 <Lymee> `run echo "#include <python2.6/Python.c> " > test.c
14:33:47 <Lymee> `run echo "int main() {PyFunctionObject f;printf(\"%u\",((unsigned int)&(f.ob_item))-((unsigned int)&f));}" >> test.c
14:33:52 <Lymee> `run gcc -o test test.c
14:34:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8594
14:34:08 <HackEgo> 1 \ babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp \ tmpdir.2145 \ warez \ тэкст
14:34:30 <Lymee> `run /usr/bin/gcc -o test test.c
14:34:37 <Lymee> `gcc -o test test.c
14:34:42 <HackEgo> 1 \ babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp \ tmpdir.2361 \ warez \ тэкст
14:35:03 <Gregor> `echo Hello, I am capable of being used via PM
14:35:04 <HackEgo> Hello, I am capable of being used via PM
14:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Or give her n uses and then tell her to use her own damn computer.
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14:51:37 <Sgeo> "there is at least one child on this planet named karkat."
14:53:28 <Sgeo> http://twitter.com/#!/andrewhussie/status/100799021219708928 Ok, so I don't know where he got that from
14:55:12 <Sgeo> http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?30478-Littlest-Homestuck-Fan
14:55:47 <fizzie> ^echo I am also capable of functioning via PM, and my 'echo' is more interesting.
14:55:47 <fungot> I am also capable of functioning via PM, and my 'echo' is more interesting. I am also capable of functioning via PM, and my 'echo' is more interesting.
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14:56:13 <Gregor> `echo fungot can suck it
14:56:14 <fungot> Gregor: your sylladex, but you're not about to get into it some time
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15:14:38 <lambdabot> System.IO fixIO :: (a -> IO a) -> IO a
15:14:49 <lambdabot> System.IO fixIO :: (a -> IO a) -> IO a
15:15:08 <lament> hoogle is even worse than haskell
15:15:47 <CakeProphet> > filterM (const [True,False]) "Take this!"
15:15:48 <lambdabot> ["Take this!","Take this","Take thi!","Take thi","Take ths!","Take ths","Ta...
15:21:03 <sllide> is there a esolang that refuses to listen sometimes?
15:21:08 <sllide> like refusing to assign variables
15:22:57 <sllide> ah a language for necromancers
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15:34:44 <sllide> hmm what about the IP following a maze, when it finds a spot where it can go multiple ways it goes where previous instructions pointed it
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15:40:00 <sllide> a second stack to point the IP
15:40:32 <sllide> and the first stack for normal operations like calculations and stuff
15:41:21 <itidus20> the IP as a maze wanderer and the program as a maze
15:42:09 <sllide> i just dont know if i should use images or a normal text file as the input
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15:46:35 <sllide> it has everything i want in my own esolang
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15:53:07 <sllide> when my pc rebooted i got the best idea ever
15:53:25 <sllide> a diagonal stack based programming language
15:54:23 <sllide> 4 bit instruction followed by a 4 bit operand
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16:04:30 <itidus20> my main interest area is scripting languages, because i could use them towards making games. as to whether they would be esoteric or not i guess not really
16:05:19 <itidus20> but it doesn't have to be that way
16:05:21 <fizzie> sllide: There's Java2K, it only does what you want with a certain probability.
16:06:00 <itidus20> Rephrasing, I want a language which people would enjoy using. Like a passtime
16:06:37 <itidus20> I want it to be the pinocchio of programming languages.
16:07:07 <itidus20> Taking care of poor old Gepetto in his darkest hour.
16:09:21 <itidus20> As a designer th-- badum bum bum.. that's it. That is the formalization of something I have been trying to say. Something truely great will smash through the shell of it's use-cases like a baby bird.
16:09:55 <sllide> mine has to be understandable but still be unique
16:11:41 <itidus20> It is said that my ramblings are incoherent. So it is.
16:12:45 <itidus20> Regardless of that, I look on this thing called 'design'. So how does design progress? Questions are asked such as "what is this supposed to do?" "what are it's use cases?"
16:13:15 <itidus20> Eventually some things reach a point where the users transcend the plans of the designers.
16:14:51 <itidus20> So as a designer the challenge is there of how should one consider the possibility that his design will eventually be transcended by it's users.
16:15:29 <itidus20> If he builds in walls and stoppages to prevent this, then it may prevent the design spreading its wings
16:15:46 <sllide> you want it to be as much expandable as possible?
16:16:41 <itidus20> Users will find uses for the thing you design beyond what you imagined.
16:18:15 <itidus20> So the question I see there is, can we help those users after they have escaped the prison of our design
16:18:27 <itidus20> or should we let them go and not interfere
16:19:02 <itidus20> or should we ensure they never do anything we didn't plan for them to do?
16:19:45 <itidus20> The ego wants to do the first option. But the second option is probably the "right" one.
16:19:50 <CakeProphet> itidus20: yes, see OverloadedStrings in Haskell.
16:19:56 <CakeProphet> I have found several uses that the designer did not intend.
16:21:17 <itidus20> So this raises some pretty serious questions for me. Such as, can you even design a good programming language around possible uses
16:21:38 <itidus20> Or just where the hell does it come from. So the design becomes a creative art.
16:22:48 <itidus20> Some bizzare thing which cannot be explained any more than how to paint the Mona Lisa.
16:23:41 <itidus20> Tarantino says he holds his pen up like an antenna
16:25:30 <itidus20> Now while there is no sure method to paint a Mona Lisa... what people do to compromise is come together and share ideas and what not. Gatherings
16:25:56 <itidus20> There have been over the years schools of art, schools of philosophy.. and the mathematicians would have their disciples etc
16:26:46 <itidus20> I'm not actually saying anything meaningful but perhaps it is inspiring
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16:29:14 <Taneb> What does anyone think of MIBBLLII?
16:33:41 <Taneb> Because I'm an attention whore who likes to know what people think of things I have created
16:34:31 <itidus20> i looked at the wiki page just now.. and i laughed at the title but didn't realize you made it
16:34:59 <Taneb> There is a link to my user page right there
16:37:23 <itidus20> Taneb: So I need to train myself to think in a certain way. Perhaps by telling you this it will advance my cause.
16:37:39 <Taneb> Is this still about algebra?
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16:40:32 <itidus20> A PC is a platform. It has it's CPU and instruction set. It has it's RAM, buses, addressing scheme, Operating System, monitor,speakers, network card, disks, etc. And then there is the human operator. The human has the body and the brain and the PC and his bedroom or garage. The human has his textbooks and notebooks and his sciences, emotions, thoughts, etc.
16:41:16 <itidus20> I think a programming language is about going from the human to the PC, according to _such_ understandings of 'human' and 'PC'.
16:42:19 <Taneb> The higher-level the programming language, the less work a human has to do and the more a PC. Low level is the other way round
16:42:51 <itidus20> Even on the lowest level programming language, the separation between humand and pc is still pertinent.
16:43:35 <Taneb> All programming languages are somewhere between the human and the computer
16:44:23 <itidus20> I know that the actual history of that which can be called programming goes back centuries, possibly millenia, but the punch cards represent the first common modern interface.
16:44:42 <itidus20> If not punch cards then it was a matter of rewiring
16:46:09 <itidus20> So I think there may be a vast chasm of unexplored space which has been largely ignored because someone built a bridge over it
16:47:13 <itidus20> Well, first of all.. why is there a 1 to 1 association between programming and language
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16:47:29 <CakeProphet> itidus20: you'd make a great liberal arts major.
16:47:32 <itidus20> is there no other means of programming a computer than using a language?
16:48:20 <Taneb> I can't think of any
16:48:28 <itidus20> This juncture gets us to ask what do we even mean by a language
16:48:38 <Taneb> Unless raw machine code doesn't count as a language
16:48:53 <itidus20> raw machine code is the PC side of things
16:49:18 <itidus20> so are we making a reification fallacy by saying language?
16:50:26 <itidus20> Oh somehow it seems to help, seems to work better that way
16:50:47 <itidus20> I am just questioning it. Theres probably good reasons for it to be the way it is.
16:51:46 <itidus20> Perhaps it is because modern PC is designed as a kind of robot
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16:53:13 <itidus20> maybe uhh... maybe we sort of anthropomorphize a book when we read it, as though it was speaking to us.
16:53:35 <itidus20> aside from the question of subvocalization
16:54:02 <itidus20> sort of a way to approximate the author who cannot be present
16:55:00 <itidus20> ... i know that enough is enough.. im gonna end rant.
16:55:32 <CakeProphet> basically a language is such a formalism used to describe a kind of data.
16:56:13 <CakeProphet> or, in theory, used for the sake of being defined.
16:57:41 <Taneb> A language is less of a language and more of a notation
16:57:48 <Taneb> A protocol is more of a language
17:00:05 <CakeProphet> itidus20: so no, a language is not the only way to program a computer, but you can probably model most means as a language.
17:03:10 <Taneb> Then eventually he would either halt or repeat
17:03:23 <CakeProphet> I suppose "dude..." would be an acceptable answer to most "what if" questions.
17:05:38 <Taneb> What If I am actually itidus20 dreaming he is Taneb?
17:05:44 <itidus20> ok so I feel I am drawing towards the whorf sapir hypothesis. which i first heard about in relation to lojban. so someone in here nicely told me that it is all but discredited.
17:06:11 * itidus20 knows that chuang tzu wrote such a story about a butterfly.
17:06:23 <Taneb> Its in about the same state as the wire-crossing problem
17:06:30 <itidus20> But.. what about a graph of creatures dreaming they are other creatures?
17:06:44 <Taneb> The strong form is pretty much certainly false, but the weak form is pretty much certainly true
17:07:23 <itidus20> The man dreams he is a butterfly. The butterfly dreams it is a snake. The snake dreams it is a pidgeon. The pidgeon dreams it is a butterfly.
17:08:32 <itidus20> i mean, lets ignore my last post
17:08:53 <itidus20> Taneb: ok here is the paradox.
17:10:22 <itidus20> Despite having no obstructions, machine code or perhaps assembly is not necessarily the language with which the computer can be most fully exploited
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17:11:09 <itidus20> we speak of turing complete a lot.. but what about CPU-complete? :D
17:11:46 <Taneb> You mean a finite state automaton with an exceedingly large number of states?
17:12:00 <Gregor> The problem is that that's a bit harder to define. e.g. Bitxtreme is arguably "CPU-complete", but entirely useless.
17:12:15 <Gregor> Also, like Taneb said :P
17:12:40 <itidus20> I never shut up.. I am the bane of those who would read the logs
17:12:53 <Gregor> That being said, see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine
17:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> He takes great pride in the fact that he talks twice as much as his nearest contender.
17:14:17 <itidus20> Taneb: I mean it is likely that some compilers will have certain opcodes which they simply never generate.
17:14:53 <itidus20> And the question of whether a compiler should have a means other than inline asm to generate every last opcode, or, if not, does it imply that those missing opcodes are like appendages
17:15:57 <Taneb> If the compiled language is capable of everything raw machine code is, and the compiler actually works, that implies that those opcodes are redundant
17:17:32 <zzo38> In Hofstadter's book, Godel Escher Bach, the Lamp is made of copper, the Meta-Lamp is silver, the Meta-Meta-Lamp is gold, it does not say what the Meta-Meta-Meta-Lamp is made of, I can probably guess but what do you think?
17:17:59 <itidus20> assembly programmers like to tout(spelling?) that they have more control than a higher level programmer
17:18:38 <Taneb> itidus20: they have more control over what the computer is doing, but exactly the same control on what it does
17:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, step aside, I'm the official channel expert on precious metals.
17:18:47 <zzo38> Maybe. But I think it would be roentgenium
17:19:36 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: OK if you are expert probably you know better than either of us. What do you think?
17:19:48 <itidus20> Gregor: I really like ORK. I haven't tried to use it but it seems to stand tall as an esolang.
17:22:03 <Taneb> A case can be made for unbipentium
17:22:11 <Taneb> Even though it hasn't been discovered
17:22:17 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Well, OK. I am not expert on precious metals so I suppose you know better. But, then what is the Meta-Meta-Meta-Meta-Lamp made of? Do you know? I don't know.
17:22:28 <quintopia> zzo38: that one's made of upsidaisium
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17:23:46 <Gregor> quintopia: Thank you for putting that voice in my head :P
17:24:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: OK. What's next?
17:25:12 <quintopia> zzo38: you should ask the genie whether PH is just pulling metal out of his ass
17:26:34 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, it would be a way to do so, if it were possible
17:27:22 <zzo38> But I said roentgenium but I don't know anything about precious metals anyways so maybe I am wrong
17:29:26 <zzo38> It is true that some compilers do not generate all opcodes of the CPU, but some of them could be used to do things that the code does, in a shorter way. Such as, the ASCII adjust commands in x86
17:29:57 <itidus20> Taneb: So going back to my point about PC/human. I think what has happened is that everyone in programming has been channeled into a very standard mindset of programming with many unnecessary bonds to mathematics.
17:30:41 <itidus20> A programmer does not NEED to know what a number is.
17:31:28 <quintopia> does a fractran programmer need to know?
17:31:31 <zzo38> itidus20: I think it depends on the program, isn't it?
17:31:43 <quintopia> i think you can't program without concept of quantity
17:32:36 <itidus20> humans function with quantity instinctively without a complex mathematical concept of it
17:33:01 <quintopia> give me an example of a program that one could make whilst completely ignoring the concept of quantity
17:33:19 <itidus20> What about.. a programming language for the illiterate :D
17:33:24 <zzo38> quintopia: Parts of programs, perhaps.
17:33:31 <itidus20> oh they can still speak.. i am forgetting that
17:33:32 <quintopia> and i mean even the human instinctive concept of quantity
17:33:44 <itidus20> they could speak into a microphone if they are illiterate
17:34:10 <quintopia> at the very least, you should be able to compare entities
17:34:12 <zzo38> In some cases you just need a series of bits but it is still convenient to write it as a number, in base 2, base 8, or base 16.
17:34:22 <quintopia> aka, one is "more" or "less" than another
17:34:41 <itidus20> this is the fruit of my earlier rant
17:35:32 <zzo38> And numbers are still useful to describe things in the program even for parts of the program which are not based on numbers.
17:35:39 <itidus20> you can extend or diminish the responsibility of the compiler/interpreter to whatever degree you like. but then it becomes a question of implementability
17:36:05 <zzo38> Bit shifting by a constant is one such example.
17:36:08 <itidus20> like.. suppose you are a customer.. and you tell a programmer your requirements.. are you a programmer then?
17:36:51 <quintopia> i suppose if someone chose to differentiate "location" from "quantity" you could do it, if all you needed to do was reference where things were and where they need to be moved to. you could name every location instead of numbering them, thus removing quantity. but if you do that, it becomes much more difficult to determine the spatial relationships between locations
17:37:23 <itidus20> or does the demarcation of programmer and mere designer occur at the point where you speak to a human who speaks to a PC
17:38:10 <quintopia> even in a warehouse, when they aren't even checking the crate contents or counting them, they speak in terms of quantity, like "put this three rows left, four columns back, second shelf"
17:38:43 <quintopia> or equivalently, "put this in C4 second shelf"
17:38:45 <itidus20> Ok. I formally accept that a concept of quantity is necessary.
17:39:33 <itidus20> Because otherwise it's just @_@
17:40:12 <quintopia> but now you want to be able to differentiate implicit programming (describing a process to another human) and explicit programming (describing a process to a computer)?
17:40:32 <Gregor> And Star Trek programming, where you describe the process to a computer in broad English :P
17:40:38 <sllide> damn steam sales always happen when i dont have money :(
17:40:49 <quintopia> Gregor: that goes in implicit programming. strong AI is practically human.
17:41:08 <Gregor> So, s/another human/an intelligent entity/
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17:41:52 <itidus20> mind reading is the wrong answer... it has always been the wrong answer the "mind reading/neural control"
17:42:20 <itidus20> since anything "non-qualia" you can think in your head you can tell another human
17:44:10 <itidus20> so be afraid if they inject you with intelligence medicine, be afraid if they implant a chip in you, be afraid if they hook an EEG machine up to your cubicle
17:45:32 <Gregor> Pfff, you're just being paranoid.
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17:45:50 * Gregor hooks his desktop's USB port into the downlink node in his right temple.
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17:47:37 <itidus20> I say "be afraid" because by the time they are at the door.. it will be too late to just "assert" that you're not interested.
17:48:07 <Gregor> We are the Bork. Resistance is futile.
17:49:39 <itidus20> quintopia: I think the line between implicit and explicit is quickly blurring
17:51:14 <itidus20> or maybe not. wiki is telling me about implicit functions
17:51:50 <quintopia> yeah i think the difference is pretty clear
17:52:05 <quintopia> one is used to describe problems, the other, solutions
17:52:15 <quintopia> only the latter can be rigorously analyzed
17:55:32 <itidus20> well suppose there was a language which had 256 strings which it would output with a newline based on the value of a byte.
17:55:37 <itidus20> I admit it is certainly not turing complete. And it is basically a limited database
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17:57:23 <itidus20> it would be a derivative of hello
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18:00:43 <MSleep> I'm not sure if quantity is entirely needed for saving location, at least in the sense of recognising numbers.
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18:05:52 <itidus20> There is another question here. :D The question of whether a programmer is still a programmer if they do not understand their own language.
18:06:19 <Taneb> Can they use that language effectively?
18:08:01 <itidus20> The possible solutions which can be created by a turing machine are an unbounded quantity.
18:08:22 <Taneb> Unbounded but countable
18:08:25 <itidus20> So it seems anyway.. i am not in any position to make such a bold claim
18:09:11 <itidus20> The implication is that noone truely understands what the turing machine is capable of.
18:09:27 <itidus20> So do they understand it if they do not understand it's full potential?
18:09:53 <Taneb> Do you know every single word in your native language?
18:10:13 <Taneb> (I'll assume English)
18:10:22 <itidus20> They understand how to build one. But they don't have an omniscient grasp of it.
18:10:31 <derrik> English has too many loan words
18:10:44 <derrik> you'd have to know all greek and latin to know english
18:10:47 <Taneb> But do you count yourself as an English speaker
18:11:50 <itidus20> Uh.. perhaps I am distorting the meaning of understanding.
18:12:35 <itidus20> into something which is not good for much but my arguing
18:13:55 <itidus20> An implicit programmer doesn't know what is possible.
18:14:17 <itidus20> He doesn't even fully understand himself (one assumes), let alone another human.
18:20:21 <itidus20> Often it is taught that how programming works is create the source code and it is fed into compiler or interpreter. Fair enough. What I am talking about is the nature of the source code editor.
18:20:58 <itidus20> Oops. Not only the editor but the language itself too.
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18:21:19 <sllide> you sound like some conspiracy theorist
18:21:35 <itidus20> not really.. but i sometimes listen to them
18:22:39 <MDude> A programming language made to have the source code resemble a consipiracy theory?
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18:26:01 <itidus20> this: http://oi52.tinypic.com/10ckho8.jpg
18:27:26 <itidus20> perhaps can be expressed as: if (a > 5 && a < 10) printf("a\n");
18:28:02 <zzo38> The memory locations in a computer could just be described as a series of bits, not as numbers. The index into an array could also be a series of bits, and not necessarily even the low bits.
18:28:53 <itidus20> wish i could think of a slightly less trivial
18:29:37 <MDude> I was thinking it could be based on something like compass and traightedge.
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18:31:23 <MDude> Though I'm not really sure how to sue it to represent memory.
18:32:19 <MDude> Oragami can also be used for math, and can so some things compass and straightedge can't, but I'm not sure it it would really be easier to make a programming language based on it.
18:34:20 <itidus20> venn diagrams don't really lend themselves to sequence very well
18:34:41 <itidus20> perhaps they would be better for functional programming
18:35:04 <monqy> your venn diagram looked kind of not at all like a venn diagram
18:37:55 <itidus20> Still, I can think of no better way of drawing conditional expressions
18:38:21 <itidus20> i should try a more complex expression
18:46:22 <zzo38> I think the documentation for the ZOMBIE programming language is a bit vague, some things are not written clear and I do not exactly understand some things about it.
18:46:36 <Taneb> Yeah, it is vague.
18:46:49 <Taneb> Take it up with Dr. David Morgan-Mar
18:47:23 <Vorpal> <zzo38> The memory locations in a computer could just be described as a series of bits, not as numbers. The index into an array could also be a series of bits, and not necessarily even the low bits. <-- you could also describe the memory locations in a computer as a set of capacitor connected in an intricate manner, providing a way to access individual ones.
18:47:40 <Vorpal> actually, not quite true. You address it by the word length
18:48:05 <Vorpal> not sure what the word length for common PC DRAM modules is. 8 bits or larger i guess
18:50:13 <itidus20> It is largely up to the language designer as to whether the programmer needs to know how much memory is being used. :D
18:51:04 <Vorpal> <itidus20> this: http://oi52.tinypic.com/10ckho8.jpg <-- image based language?
18:51:10 <Vorpal> (I hope that is the input file!)
18:51:30 <itidus20> there is no actual language spec or interpreter or compiler.. only that image.
18:51:45 <itidus20> and it is much of a dead end :P i just wanted to throw it out there
18:52:25 <itidus20> and i don't endorse the idea that someone else pick up what i discard
18:52:43 <Vorpal> itidus20, don't worry, I'm too lazy
18:52:44 <itidus20> someone else mentioned similar things though perhaps
18:52:57 <Vorpal> itidus20, anyway I gather you are no fan of open source then?
18:53:01 <sllide> i just watched cube2: hypercube
18:53:05 <sllide> i cant think straight anymore
18:53:24 <itidus20> Vorpal: i just thnk that.. the idea is broken
18:53:46 <itidus20> i mean the idea of the picture i drew
18:54:01 <Vorpal> itidus20, still: how so?
18:54:12 <itidus20> and.. i would not like to be responsible for someone else wasting hours away just to implement that piece of cra
18:54:46 <Vorpal> itidus20, it could be done as a part of a larger language, where control flow is input as a flow chart
18:54:56 <Vorpal> with venn diagram in the condition boxes
18:55:01 <Vorpal> itidus20, that way it could work
18:55:06 <itidus20> also.. the idea doesn't really scale very well
18:55:19 <Vorpal> itidus20, true, but many esolangs don't
18:55:23 <Vorpal> they can still be interesting
18:55:24 <itidus20> maybe it does. maybe theres something in it
18:55:48 <itidus20> oh i like open source.. more specificially i hate patents
18:56:29 <Vorpal> open source and patents are not opposites though
18:57:11 <itidus20> but then what is the benefit of reading an open source which is patented
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18:57:48 <Vorpal> itidus20, indeed. I'm opposed to patents and I like open source. But it is perfectly possible for someone to oppose patents and oppose open source
18:57:57 <Vorpal> or oppose patents and not care about open source
18:58:27 <MDude> I wouldn't mind patents if they were shorter.
18:59:05 <itidus20> I am slowly realizing that my opinion about them is of no value.
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18:59:35 <Taneb> I think I have written a MIBBLLII CAT
18:59:36 <itidus20> that my opinion is self-interested from a specific position in relation to larger economic entities than myself
19:00:51 <itidus20> basically it seems highly likely in this world of no free lunches that something dear would have to be sacrificed to eliminate software patents
19:00:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, never heard of that language before
19:01:07 <Taneb> Because I created it earlier today
19:01:32 <Taneb> MIBBLLII stands for MIBBLLII Isn't Brainfuck But Looks Like It Is
19:01:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover,
19:01:39 <Vorpal> Taneb, is it on the wiki
19:01:40 <itidus20> It is economic thermodynamics.
19:01:44 <Sgeo> How are you not in the other channel
19:02:33 <Taneb> Sgeo: which other channel? He's in #esoteric-minecraft
19:02:43 <itidus20> Just as we can never rid ourselves of germs
19:02:43 <Sgeo> The other other channel
19:02:59 <Taneb> I've only ever been on two channels on freenode
19:03:05 <itidus20> supposing we were to rid ourselves of harmful germs.. would then our good germs not take up the opportunity to turn bad
19:03:19 <itidus20> perhaps the nasty germs keep the good germs in check
19:04:35 <itidus20> Taneb: I admit some envy of MIBBLLII
19:04:43 <itidus20> i hope this is not taken as offence
19:05:03 <Taneb> That other channel
19:05:11 <Taneb> itidus20: define envy
19:05:20 <Taneb> You wish you did it first?
19:05:45 <itidus20> it is a word from my language english, so I shall consult my dictionary
19:06:55 <itidus20> Without notion of malevolence: a Desire to equal another in achievement or excellence; emulation.
19:07:06 <Taneb> Okay, that's a compliment
19:07:33 <itidus20> eg. His aduancement shall ingender in noble men an honest enuie.
19:07:58 <itidus20> eg. Such as cleanliness and decency Prompt to a virtuous envy.
19:09:22 <itidus20> at least thats what I think I meant.
19:09:28 <itidus20> It is hard to be sure of these things.
19:14:06 <Sgeo> Just signed up for the Spotify waiting list
19:14:19 <Sgeo> Less than a minute later, I get an email saying my wait is over
19:17:43 <Gregor> Youuuuuuuuuuuu people.
19:17:55 <Taneb> Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus people
19:17:56 <coppro> haven't seen you in a while
19:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OK there is a guy in #jesus who is a Wolfram employee and thinks Wolfram is a genius.
19:19:14 <Gregor> Since #jesus is not the official channel of Jesus, shouldn't it be ##jesus?
19:23:16 <itidus20> attempting to apply my truth table notation from about a week ago to combinatrics I get: I x = 2bitTT(0,1) x = x; K x y = 4bitTT(0,0,1,1) x y = x; S f g x = ??? = f x(g x);
19:23:40 <itidus20> ya... i didn't try very hard.. >.<
19:23:47 <Taneb> Combinatorics and combinatory logic are different
19:24:39 <itidus20> My conception of the truth tables fully covers the I and K .. but S seems like it would screw my head a bit
19:25:14 <Taneb> You need a truth table that can take a truth table as input
19:25:24 <itidus20> and that is how i envisiioned them
19:25:34 <itidus20> i tried writing up a BNF of it
19:26:39 <itidus20> i think i deleted it in the end from the looks of it but te idea is simple enough
19:27:19 <itidus20> since a truth table will ultimately resolve to 0 or 1 once all free variables are filled in
19:27:48 <itidus20> (reading about combinatory logic as linked from miibbllii
19:28:37 <itidus20> but i don't think my idea really had the sufficient flexibility to support the S combinator
19:32:08 <itidus20> never mind you are right the are different
19:32:37 <zzo38> I think the Plan 9 Protocol should be assigned a USB device class number (possibly number 0x90).
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20:03:21 <oerjan> <elliott> help monqy what should i call this languag ehelp
20:04:43 <oerjan> <elliott> evincar: jesus,
20:04:57 <oerjan> no, he would probably approve. his followers, on the other hand...
20:05:34 <oerjan> <evincar> Why not Xesus? Because Xs are cool (see the 90s).
20:05:51 <oerjan> in that case i think Xristos would be more traditional
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20:10:46 <oerjan> <fizzie> Probably not, but that sort of thing is liable to escalate, and then you run out of different quote-like characters.
20:10:53 <oerjan> ' and " can be alternated
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20:11:55 <oerjan> 22:12 oerjan> <fizzie> Probably not, but that sort of thing is liable to escalate, and then you run out of different quote-like characters.
20:11:58 <oerjan> 22:12 oerjan> ' and " can be alternated
20:12:01 <oerjan> 22:12 oerjan> like in INTERCAL iirc
20:12:31 <oerjan> cannot keep the main INTERCAL maintainer out of the discussion, er monologue
20:12:34 <cheater_> <oerjan> 22:12 oerjan> <fizzie> Probably not, but that sort of thing is liable to escalate, and then you run out of different quote-like characters.
20:12:35 <cheater_> 22:12 oerjan> ' and " can be alternated
20:12:35 <cheater_> 22:12 oerjan> like in INTERCAL iirc
20:12:36 <ais523> actually, you typically don't even need to alternate in INTERCAL
20:12:52 <ais523> although, it makes things clearer, and it makes them less ambiguous in some cases involving array subscripts
20:12:57 <cheater_> do we want to make a reenactment of the last time we did it
20:13:33 <oerjan> cheater_: you almost managed to irritate me there
20:13:54 <cheater_> oerjan, i thought it was fun the last time we did that though
20:14:06 <cheater_> we ended up with something like 12-13 nicks in one message.
20:20:40 <cheater_> sorry oerjan i didn't want to irritate you!!
20:21:22 <Gregor> <oerjan> But what irritates me the most is when people use multiple exclamation points!
20:21:23 <cheater_> in fact, i have just thought about this place, because someone in #postgresql was asking if CTE's are TC
20:21:47 <cheater_> interestingly enough they can be recursive
20:22:02 <cheater_> which is very cool, i don't even know how to imagine this sort of thing
20:22:17 <cheater_> how do you picture a recursive select statement??
20:23:28 <Gregor> Sounds like the perfect answer to me.
20:27:01 <cheater_> could have some now, but damn if i find any in stupid germany
20:27:02 <Gregor> Marmite: Now with 25% more earwax!
20:27:24 <cheater_> earwax: now with 50% more maggots!
20:27:39 <Gregor> I convinced a German colleague of mine to try Marmite while we were in Lancaster.
20:28:02 <Gregor> No, he spread it thin.
20:28:20 <Gregor> But considering that Marmite tastes like a slow, miserable death, I can understand his feelings.
20:28:47 <cheater_> it's the sweet, sweet sanguine of lonely decay
20:29:04 <ais523> oerjan: if you have two punctuation marks, say ' and ", you can use '" and "' as nesting brackets
20:29:08 <olsner> but what does marmite taste like?
20:29:10 <ais523> that's the way I normally program in Shove
20:29:24 <Gregor> olsner: It tastes ... like yeast.
20:29:43 <ais523> I'm not actually sure what yeast tastes like in the abstract
20:29:46 <Gregor> olsner: I'm told that it tastes similar to the solid gunk that collects in the bottom of a wheat beer.
20:29:52 <ais523> I know what bread tastes like, but am not sure which part of the taste is yeast-related
20:30:05 <cheater_> ais523, bread that hasn't been baked well enough tastes like yeast.
20:30:22 <olsner> oh, just yeast then, I can relate to that
20:30:28 <cheater_> wet. soggy bread CAN taste like yeast
20:30:58 <monqy> I should try marmite sometime but how
20:31:06 <cheater_> ais523, we were talking about pokemon chess yesterday
20:31:32 <olsner> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Compressed_fresh_yeast_-_1.jpg
20:31:40 <olsner> that's what I imagine marmite is now
20:31:43 <cheater_> what do you think of making a meta-game around chess which makes some pieces not attackable by other pieces depending on the meta-game happening?
20:31:44 <ais523> cheater_: was the conversation at all interesting?
20:31:53 <ais523> and I think it defeats the point of chess
20:32:21 <cheater_> zzo38 also mentioned the possibility of having "elemental chess"
20:32:30 <cheater_> where pieces have elements/colors/whatever
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20:33:20 <cheater_> ais523, marmite has the consistence of very sticky very dark brown honey
20:33:27 <zzo38> Each one corresponds to a different basic energy card in pokemon card
20:33:31 <ais523> I know its consistency, that's obvious from looking at it
20:33:49 <cheater_> it tastes like maybe salty toffee or something
20:33:51 <ais523> zzo38: but the basic Pokémon card types don't follow a sensible elemental rock-paper-scissors table
20:33:57 <ais523> because each represents multiple console types
20:34:15 <ais523> so you have, say, some water-energy Pokémon weak to grass-energy Pokémon moves, and some weak to electric-energy Pokémon moves
20:34:19 <zzo38> ais523: Well yes, it is true. Different card have different weak/resist depending on things too
20:34:37 <ais523> zzo38: the weak/resist mostly just reflects what the weaknesses and resistances are in the console game
20:35:19 <cheater_> we have also mentioned the option of playing a round of pokemon every time two chess pieces are in conflict
20:36:02 <zzo38> You could do that but combining it with rules about what cards are selected at random depending on the pieces and on other things too, such as the energy types, and so on
20:36:31 <cheater_> so a grass energy piece could only use grass energy cards
20:36:37 <cheater_> and you'd shuffle and pick out 3 grass energy cards
20:36:48 <cheater_> which would be e.g. water energy
20:36:50 <ais523> well, most moves allow off-color energy too
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20:37:10 <ais523> moves that represent Normal-type moves normally allow you to use any energy, others typically require 1 or 2 oncolor energy
20:37:27 <zzo38> Yes some attacks in the cards allow you to use any energy, or only partially the correct energy and others can be any one.
20:38:21 <cheater_> what about using the proximity of other pieces
20:38:28 <cheater_> say if your attacking piece is water energy
20:38:50 <cheater_> but you have a grass energy piece in proximity to the square being attacked
20:38:50 <zzo38> I suppose you could make something like that too.
20:38:56 <cheater_> then you also get a grass card
20:39:12 <zzo38> OK. Perhaps that can also be used.
20:39:37 <cheater_> that would be a totally different game!
20:40:41 <zzo38> You can also do things such as use different board sizes, or whatever; note that in shogi game you have 9x9 board and you can capture opponent's pieces later you can put them back on the board and use them as your own pieces.
20:41:40 <ais523> unlike zzo38, I prefer the console game to the card game
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20:46:53 <zzo38> That is OK, I suppose, different people can prefer different thing.
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20:53:06 <cheater_> you two are like yin and yang.
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20:57:03 <zzo38> Are you able to help more with this? I remember coppro was able to answer my questions to the best way. But, is anyone else? Any idea? https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/wiki/Dangelo_Programming_Language
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20:59:48 <zzo38> Please add stuff if you have, you can type it directly on the wiki although you probably need an account (it is not up to me that makes you require an account)
21:01:53 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> It is not moving around in the same space I am
21:02:10 <oerjan> it is a multidimensional being, haven't you read H2G2?
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21:06:15 <oerjan> <lament> hoogle is even worse than haskell
21:06:30 <oerjan> are we _sure_ someone hasn't hacked lament's account?
21:07:06 <olsner> did he said that in #esoteric or somewhere else?
21:07:53 <olsner> you can't draw any conclusions from what anyone says in here, I think :)
21:08:01 <zzo38> I am trying to design the project, something related to Haskell, and to TeXnicard, and Magic: the Gathering, and even Inform 7, and a few other things that nobody knows, and hopefully design the proper programming language for this purpose. And then make some things with it including Magic: the Gathering rules, and possibly even a roguelike game.
21:08:13 <zzo38> Would you know anything about this please?
21:09:46 <ais523> oerjan: a troll once came to Esolang using a name which was incredibly similar to "Lament"
21:10:12 <oerjan> ais523: lament is on account lament, though
21:11:56 <zzo38> Does pokemon card not have any IMPOSTOR BILL card or OPPONENT POTION card? Are you going to use this card if it is?
21:14:39 <oerjan> although not from the same IP as when making that comment, so there's no proof it was the real lament who said that i guess
21:15:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:17:39 <zzo38> Play pokemon card with nearly random deck construction.
21:18:35 -!- elliott has joined.
21:19:34 <Taneb> Python's shouting at me because it all of a sudden hates the word "def"
21:19:51 <Taneb> The third def into the program
21:20:11 <fizzie> The def that broke the camel's back.
21:20:15 <zzo38> You can allow any evolution card even if it does not match, as long as it is of the same energy type of the card it is played on, and must be the correct stage number, and not more than the maximum for any of the cards underneath. You can also evolve into the card that is labeled as doing so regardless of energy type.
21:20:46 <monqy> do snakes have backs
21:20:57 <Taneb> Snakes have nothing but
21:21:05 <fizzie> (Though I suppose that would be more appropriate for Perl.)
21:21:13 <monqy> perl has sub though doesn't it
21:21:52 <fizzie> Sure, keyword-substitute appropriately first.
21:22:08 <Taneb> I had missed an ] on the previous line
21:22:36 <zzo38> For example, you can evolve Seel into Misty's Starmie but no further. If you play Charmeleon on Ponyta there is no more evolve (because Ponyta only evolves once), but you can play Abra->Kadabra->Gengar because both cards allow evolution up to Stage 2 cards.
21:23:22 <zzo38> These would be the rules only when using nearly random deck construction, and should not apply in the normal game.
21:23:59 <elliott> 06:25:33: <coppro> I'm going to continue repeating this
21:23:59 <elliott> 06:25:41: <coppro> because there exists a branch of mathematics
21:23:59 <elliott> 06:25:47: <coppro> called type theory
21:23:59 <elliott> 06:25:52: <coppro> remarkably, it is the theory of types
21:23:59 <elliott> 06:26:02: <coppro> and you're pulling a Sgeo here
21:24:00 <elliott> 06:26:53: <evincar> What, by being practical? :P
21:24:09 <elliott> coppro: for once i am in complete agreement with you, also this hurts to read
21:24:25 <monqy> i agree with elliott
21:24:37 <Sgeo> Reinventing stuff is a stereotype of me?
21:24:38 <zzo38> I have made a lot of thinking about type theory in the past but I have not know about actual mathematical type theory much.
21:24:49 <elliott> 06:28:24: <coppro> no, by saying "I wonder what happens if X?"
21:24:49 <elliott> 06:28:29: <coppro> and hearing "it's been done"
21:24:49 <elliott> 06:28:40: <coppro> and going "Maybe it involves Y?"
21:24:51 <elliott> 06:28:48: <coppro> and hearing "No, it doesn't."
21:24:53 <elliott> 06:28:53: <coppro> and going "If it had Y, you'd need Z"
21:24:55 <elliott> 06:29:02: <coppro> and hearing "Maybe, but it doesn't have Y."
21:25:27 <Sgeo> I honestly don't recall doing something like that. Example please?
21:25:51 <elliott> ask coppro im busy logreading
21:26:22 <zzo38> Is coppro on here today?
21:26:50 <zzo38> And what timezone is the messages you have repeated now?
21:30:17 <elliott> 11:52:38: <Taneb> How about "TIARA"
21:30:17 <elliott> 11:53:09: <Taneb> Which stands for "TIARA Is A Recursive Algorithm"
21:30:18 <elliott> 11:54:26: <Deewiant> I thought you'd say s/Algorithm/Acronym/
21:30:18 <elliott> 11:54:42: <Taneb> Yeah, that's what I meant
21:30:56 <Taneb> Spoiler: I ended up calling it MIBBLLII
21:31:01 <elliott> 12:23:17: <PatashuWarg> 'This system was discovered'
21:31:02 <elliott> 12:23:22: <PatashuWarg> I'm pretty sure you can't discover maths guys
21:31:08 <elliott> "invent" is not really that much more appropriate...
21:31:43 <elliott> 12:29:20: <PatashuWarg> also, because its specification is tiny but working with it is hugely difficult, it's easy to write a compiler/interpreter for and it's still turing complete
21:31:43 <elliott> Working with BF is easier than in many esolangs
21:32:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover is being taunted by a mouse his cat brought in
21:32:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
21:32:49 <elliott> why are we talking like this Phantom_Hoover
21:32:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:33:11 <elliott> 13:20:06: <Lymee> https://gist.github.com/1136780
21:33:11 <elliott> 13:20:10: <Lymee> I had way too much time on my hands.
21:33:11 <elliott> 13:20:23: <Lymee> Guess how evil.py works.
21:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU'RE UNDER THE CURTAIN I HAVE YOU YOU LITTLE BASTARD
21:33:16 <elliott> Lymee: huh, I gave up on this
21:33:23 <fizzie> Soon: /nick Phantom_Mouse.
21:33:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's what I tried.
21:33:59 <fizzie> elliott: There's some possibly-related hackego ctypes fluff later in the log.
21:34:08 <elliott> https://gist.github.com/1136828
21:34:31 <elliott> 14:00:53: <CakeProphet> hmmm, so you could use unsafeCoerce to artificially change the phantom type of a GADT, right?
21:34:31 <elliott> 14:00:56: <CakeProphet> with no issues.
21:34:41 <ais523> wow, Apple was the most valuable US company, for a short period of time, according to the stock market
21:34:41 <elliott> I don't think "no issues" is guaranteed at all.
21:34:45 <ais523> that... makes no sense at all
21:34:49 <elliott> Because it makes it totally inconsistent.
21:35:00 <elliott> ais523: Apple stock is really good
21:35:11 <ais523> elliott: it's good because people think it's good
21:35:25 <ais523> the stock market is about doing what everyone else will do, but a few days earlier
21:35:27 <oerjan> elliott: but, it's essentially the same kind of unsafeCoerce question you asked me yesterday :P
21:35:30 <elliott> ais523: right, I guess the iPod and iPhone have nothing to do with it :)
21:35:50 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but I made sure not to overstep the guarantees GHC offers
21:35:52 <ais523> they do have something to do with it, but even if Apple cornered the entire market, I imagine they still wouldn't be as profitable as, say, ExxonMobil, who they overtook
21:36:04 <elliott> oerjan: and it's _not_ the same, because I never tried to destruct a constructor with the wrong type???
21:36:14 <fizzie> Our cat once dropped a still-mostly-alive mouse to my father's bed one morning while summer-vacatitioning. The nicest way to wake up?
21:36:17 <elliott> data Foo a where X :: a -> Foo A; Y :: a -> Foo B
21:36:22 <elliott> unsafeCoerce (X 9) :: Foo B
21:36:25 <elliott> how are you going to destruct that
21:36:34 <elliott> which makes the whole thing pointless
21:36:44 <elliott> I think CakeProphet wants a type variable that doesn't appear on the RHS, i.e. a real phantom type
21:36:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:36:51 <oerjan> elliott: well the thing is phantom types without type classes should have absolutely _no_ effect on the runtime representation...
21:36:51 <elliott> in which case a GADT, and unsafeCoerce, are totally unnecessary
21:37:14 <elliott> oerjan: well it's only safe if you have like
21:37:24 <elliott> data Foo a where X :: forall b. a -> Foo b
21:37:27 -!- augur has joined.
21:37:28 <elliott> which avoids like one reconstruction??
21:37:37 <elliott> and if it's recursive then unsafeCoerce could save time
21:37:46 <elliott> the type variable... if you do that...
21:38:24 <monqy> why does cakeprohpet want this
21:38:43 <elliott> 14:32:58: <Lymee> `run echo "#include <python2.6/Python.c> " > test.c
21:38:44 <elliott> 14:33:01: <HackEgo> No output.
21:38:44 <elliott> 14:33:15: <Lymee> `run echo "int main() {PyFunctionObject f;printf(\"%u\",((unsigned int)&(f.ob_item))-((unsigned int)&f));}" > test.c
21:38:46 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>>'
21:39:10 <elliott> 14:34:37: <Lymee> `gcc -o test test.c
21:40:13 <oerjan> <elliott> data Foo a where X :: forall b. a -> Foo b <-- um i don't think the two a's have anything to do with each other if you use that syntax
21:40:34 <elliott> oerjan: oh shut up, you know what i mean :D
21:40:46 <elliott> data Foo a b where X :: forall b. a -> Foo a b
21:40:58 <oerjan> well i might be a little closer now
21:41:35 <elliott> basically unsafeCoerce to change a phantom type is useful _only_ if you have some kind of polymorphism on the phantom type
21:41:44 <elliott> otherwise you can't do anything with it without coercing it back
21:41:54 <elliott> and if you _do_ have polymorphism, it's always just an optimisation
21:42:02 <elliott> because you could just reconstruct the value instead
21:42:36 <NihilistDandy> Does it mean something when a channel starts with ##?
21:42:44 <elliott> 16:19:50: <CakeProphet> itidus20: yes, see OverloadedStrings in Haskell.
21:42:44 <elliott> 16:19:56: <CakeProphet> I have found several uses that the designer did not intend.
21:42:44 <elliott> 16:20:00: <CakeProphet> :)
21:42:44 <elliott> 16:20:17: <CakeProphet> ask elliott about it.
21:42:44 <elliott> stop getting on my bad side :|
21:42:46 <elliott> NihilistDandy: yes, "about"
21:42:50 <ais523> NihilistDandy: it means that the channel wasn't officially approved by the people who own the name
21:42:55 <elliott> # channels are meant to have an official group registration blah
21:43:05 <elliott> and we'll get booted in to ##esoteric once the new system is up unless we can make a claim to the name
21:43:09 <ais523> e.g. #feather-lang (which I own) versus ##nomic (which Peter Suber doesn't own)
21:43:10 <elliott> which I think we can do, but it's not certain
21:43:15 <ais523> elliott: actually, I looked at their name claiming guide
21:43:22 <ais523> and I think either us or cpressey has the best claim to the name
21:43:32 <elliott> NihilistDandy: we have the "Esolang" wiki
21:43:39 <elliott> ais523: cpressey has said that we have a claim to the name
21:43:45 <ais523> elliott: oh, in that case there's no issue
21:43:58 <elliott> so I'm sure he'd agree that we should have it
21:44:03 <ais523> I wouldn't have expected him to boot us out anyway
21:44:13 <ais523> I don't completely know cpressey's gender beyond doubt
21:44:26 <ais523> and you can't tell from the name
21:44:33 -!- pingveno_ has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:44:39 <elliott> oh, there's another catseye esolang out
21:44:45 <ais523> I suppose of all the people in here, other than me, I'm most confident about Gregor's gender
21:44:55 <ais523> although it's hard to be completely sure wrt anyone
21:45:02 -!- pingveno has joined.
21:45:05 <ais523> elliott: what's it called?
21:45:08 <elliott> ais523: I'm sure I've affirmed my gender to you several times
21:45:18 <elliott> "Xoomonk is a programming language in which malingering updatable stores are first-class objects. Malingering updatable stores unify several language constructs, including procedure activations, named parameters, and object-like data structures.
21:45:21 <elliott> I guess it's not meant to be an esolang
21:45:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dammit how did you know.
21:45:52 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU WOULD OF COURSE HAVE AN AFFECTION FOR YOUR FELLOW RODENTS
21:45:53 <ais523> elliott: that's a fun set of things to unify
21:46:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: RAAAAAAAAGE
21:46:29 <elliott> (Anyone who doesn't know why I am raging is Not My Friend.)
21:47:15 <elliott> oerjan: RABBITS ARE LAGOMORPHS
21:47:46 <oerjan> i thought that was a subsomething of rodents
21:48:07 <elliott> "Though these mammals can resemble rodents (order Rodentia) and were classified as a superfamily in that order until the early twentieth century, they have since been considered a separate order. For a time it was common to consider the lagomorphs only distant relatives of the rodents, to whom they merely bore a superficial resemblance."
21:48:30 <ais523> I find it hard to imagine rabbits as rodents at all
21:48:37 <ais523> they don't look much like mice or squirrels
21:50:12 <monqy> whats a pokemon hlep
21:51:15 <MDude> Lagomorph used to be considered a subset of rodent but now it isn't.
21:51:29 <oerjan> a hlep is a ravenous beast with a cleft palate
21:52:01 <tswett> Is it just me, or is there only one decent course in Finnish in the world?
21:52:05 <MDude> And also that you already mentoined what I said.
21:52:32 <MDude> Well I guess no, or the room woulnd't be dark.
21:52:36 <MDude> Be right back, dinner.
21:53:00 <Taneb> Okay, my MIBBLLII CAT program didn't work
21:53:13 <elliott> NihilistDandy: No pikachu is a pikachu.
21:53:15 <tswett> The first time, I asked, "Are you on fire?"
21:53:40 <ais523> pikachu translates as "sparkle mouse" or something like that
21:53:53 <NihilistDandy> elliott: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pikachu_(Pokémon)
21:54:03 <Taneb> I used to be such a Pokemon nerd
21:54:17 <Taneb> Then Pokemon faded into Discworld
21:54:17 <ais523> Taneb: why did you stop?
21:54:23 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> OH GOD I AM IN A DARK ROOM WITH THE MOUSE <-- are you sure there really _is_ a mouse and you're not just having hallucinations? you _do_ seem a little psychotic about this...
21:54:28 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: Yes it says that, but the "Species:" is not really relevant for any purpose.
21:54:28 <Taneb> And Discworld into IWC
21:54:37 <elliott> oerjan: it is a cute panic
21:54:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, my family said the mouse was there BUT THEY MAY HAVE LIED
21:54:50 <NihilistDandy> zzo38: Except in distinguishing it from a lagomorph
21:54:51 <zzo38> (And in many cases neither is the weight/height, although it might be sometimes)
21:55:01 <itidus20> bulbapedia isn't necessarily canon on the question of rodent vs lagomorph
21:55:20 <itidus20> probably some 11yr old quickly wrote down mouse
21:55:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Man, catching injured pigeons was way easier than this,
21:55:46 <itidus20> the english game isn't necessarily canon >.>;
21:55:54 <itidus20> you can only be sure by the original japanese
21:56:23 <itidus20> translators can take liberties with things sometimes
21:56:44 <itidus20> i know how to solve this dilemma anyway
21:57:09 <Taneb> Pikachu is a ねずみポケモン
21:57:10 <zzo38> It doesn't matter. It says "mouse" so I think it is the actual data, but that doesn't mean that it means anything!
21:57:11 <oerjan> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/YkkBj.jpg
21:57:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: STOP IT ADOPT THE MOUSE AT ONCE
21:57:59 <ais523> itidus20: the anime isn't canon either, incidentally
21:58:37 <zzo38> The game, anime, everything, they do unconsistent things too.
21:58:38 <itidus20> I can only see unicode 0 due to my poor font choice but i will take your words for it now
21:58:55 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: It says, roughly, "Classification: Mouse Pokemon"
21:59:18 <elliott> THAT THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND
21:59:23 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: Yes, so it is the proper data. It is the actual data! However, it doesn't have any meaning.
21:59:39 <zzo38> Just because something is correct doesn't mean it is of any significance.
21:59:57 <monqy> how to lure mice into mouse traps
22:00:17 <monqy> mouse traps not mousetraps
22:00:28 <monqy> traps for mice, not those nasty hurty things
22:00:41 <itidus20> all your mouse are belong to us
22:00:42 <elliott> DONT TRAP THEM,,,,, THAT IS RUDE
22:01:23 <monqy> box makes me think the sport and packaging
22:01:27 <monqy> is packaging a sport too
22:01:30 <elliott> no i haev played monkey island two and you just need a cheese and a wooden box and string
22:02:07 <oerjan> boxing a mouse is just plain mean
22:02:09 <elliott> oerjan: have you used the stnadard haskell hughespj prettyprinting library outside of using text in lambdabot...........
22:03:32 <monqy> did your box have a hole in it
22:03:43 <monqy> did you lift the box
22:04:30 <Taneb> Didn't you ever watch the fourth episode of the first series of Xialin Showdown?
22:04:33 <Taneb> The one with the mime?
22:04:42 -!- ais523 has left ("<fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api").
22:05:11 <Taneb> THEN YOU KNOW WHAT Phantom_Hoover MUST DO
22:05:20 <Taneb> Hey, this client has tab completion
22:05:32 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: Welcome to the fucking future of 15 years ago
22:06:30 <monqy> new channel for every topic
22:07:26 <monqy> and then they will be freinds
22:07:56 <elliott> pikhq: help i told the tup people their code is invalidaed but theyre just ingore///
22:08:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MOUSEKIND ARE NICE.
22:08:51 <elliott> I HATE PHANTOM HOOVER HE IS A TERRIBLE HORRIBLE EVIL BAD
22:09:10 <oerjan> <Gregor> We are the Bork. Resistance is futile.
22:09:20 <oerjan> `swedish Resistance is futile.
22:09:35 <oerjan> !swedish Resistance is futile.
22:09:36 <EgoBot> Reseestunce-a is footeele-a. Bork Bork Bork!
22:11:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:12:26 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: my knowledge in swedish matters is extensive
22:12:42 <monqy> olsner invented swedish
22:12:46 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: have you used the stnadard haskell hughespj prettyprinting library outside of using text in lambdabot...........
22:13:01 <monqy> is it a good library
22:13:14 <oerjan> elliott: Unnecessary loquaciousness is contraindicated.
22:14:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
22:14:12 <elliott> monqy: is it a library if it is part of the stdlib,,
22:14:17 <elliott> well it's in a different hackage package but
22:14:37 <elliott> it's in the haskell account on github and bugtracked as part of ghc.....
22:15:47 <olsner> of course it is, it's been passed down the ages from the ancient masters of haskell
22:15:50 <elliott> i dont know, if it can do what i want, then yes
22:16:19 <elliott> (text "data" <+> text "FunTimes") <+>
22:16:19 <elliott> ((equals <+> text "Foo") $$ (char '|' <+> text "Bar"))
22:16:23 <oerjan> the ancient haskell monks of the hindu kush
22:16:24 <elliott> then i want it to do the same as
22:16:24 <olsner> (though it doesn't seem to actually be used a lot, so maybe it's ungood in some ways)
22:16:36 <elliott> (text "data" <+> text "FunTimes") $$ nest 2
22:16:37 <elliott> ((equals <+> text "Foo") $$ (char '|' <+> text "Bar"))
22:16:40 <elliott> know how to make that happen
22:17:30 <elliott> if the argument to nest was high enough
22:17:40 <elliott> it would be further to the right than the s in FunTimes
22:17:44 <elliott> it would omit the linebreak
22:17:54 <elliott> it indents like 9 spaces.....
22:21:19 <oerjan> > text "data" <+> text "FunTimes"
22:21:21 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Control.Arrow.<+>', i...
22:21:53 <oerjan> i thought i saw someone say once that they had worked on removing ambiguities in lambdabot...
22:22:11 <oerjan> they might wish to improve their methods.
22:22:25 <monqy> is anything an instance of arrowplus
22:22:47 <oerjan> :t (Control.Arrow.<+>)
22:22:48 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c. (ArrowPlus a) => a b c -> a b c -> a b c
22:23:17 <elliott> > text "data" Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ.<+> text "FunTimes"
22:23:21 <oerjan> there's probably a MonadPlus m => ArrowPlus (Kleisli m) instance
22:23:32 <elliott> it's "beside, with a space"
22:23:38 <sllide> i want a interpreter that executes CLI HLT when you make a error in your code
22:23:46 <monqy> the one thing I like about arrowplus is how it's broken up into arrowzero and arrowplus
22:26:17 <olsner> sllide: except you can't change the interrupt flag or halt in user mode
22:33:50 <monqy> drug cheese with friendship, mouse eats cheese, best friends forever
22:35:54 <monqy> drug cheese with honesty
22:37:15 <oerjan> at least you are making a great scientific confirmation of the theory that phantoms cannot catch mice
22:37:55 <oerjan> why do i have this feeling that atrocious spelling is spreading in the channel
22:38:12 <elliott> oerjan: REAL DISTRESS IS BEGINNINGEGING,
22:38:25 <elliott> IT IS A COMING OF AGE STROYROY
22:38:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/R
22:38:58 <elliott> this is fucking stupid and i want to kill it
22:39:04 <oerjan> by next june, everyone will be completely incomprehensible
22:39:17 <elliott> to write an article on the real R
22:42:34 <elliott> someone type five two three
22:43:39 <monqy> when will he returne.....
22:45:03 <elliott> awwwwwwwwww friendship argargeve
22:45:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:45:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:46:16 <ais523> oh, I saw that being posted to the wiki
22:46:19 <ais523> I haven't looked at it yet, though
22:46:30 <ais523> I just forgot about it in self-defence
22:46:42 <elliott> the worst thing is, there could be a good article at [[R]]
22:46:44 <ais523> I remember that it has lots of links to things that shouldn't be on the wiki
22:46:45 <elliott> one written by cpressey :(
22:46:56 <elliott> on the premier IRC-bot language R :-P
22:47:10 <ais523> what about the statistics lang? or is that insufficiently eso?
22:47:20 <elliott> ais523: it's an IRC-bot language, not a statistics language
22:47:29 <ais523> well, there's a non-eso lang called R too
22:47:38 <elliott> ais523: https://bitbucket.org/catseye/rtype/overview
22:47:45 <elliott> IRC bot language, not statistics.
22:47:51 <elliott> (https://bitbucket.org/catseye/rtype/src/0ebaf62da919/bot.R)
22:48:13 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_%28programming_language%29
22:48:20 <ais523> wow, I didn't realise GNU was responsible for itg
22:48:25 <elliott> ais523: yes, it's an IRC bot language
22:48:33 <elliott> https://bitbucket.org/catseye/rtype/raw/0ebaf62da919/bot.R if you hate HTML too much to open a page with it
22:48:46 <ais523> oh, you mean that cpressey wrote a bot in it?
22:48:54 <elliott> YES WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY ITS INTENDED USE
22:48:58 <ais523> I thought you were implying he'd invented a language for writing bots which had the same name
22:49:11 <elliott> xform <- gsub('^:(.*?)\\!(.*?)\\s+PRIVMSG\\s+(.*?)\\s+\\:(.*?)$', '\\1\u2603\\2\u2603\\3\u2603\\4', line, perl=TRUE)
22:49:11 <elliott> if (length(xform) == 0) { next }
22:49:11 <elliott> parts <- strsplit(xform, '\u2603', fixed=TRUE)
22:49:28 <elliott> (it uses three ☃s to separate the fields because R is terrible at string handling)
22:49:55 <ais523> snowman-separated data?
22:50:17 <ais523> doesn't that break if there are snowmans in the original
22:50:21 <ais523> or can you escape them somehow?
22:50:38 <elliott> of course it breaks, you just have to avoid using three snowmans in your line and it should be OK
22:50:41 <elliott> "Note that despite our extensive work to improve the functioning of the Java applet, there are known issues with it on Ubuntu 10. If you encounter these, try upgrading to Ubuntu 11, or try using your mom's computer."
22:50:46 <elliott> chris.....i dont like ubuntu eleven....
22:51:11 <monqy> what abunto alevem
22:51:25 * elliott reads cpressey talk about intricacies of commodore sixty-four emulation
22:52:06 <elliott> ais523: hmm, two months until the next Ubuntu release, right?
22:52:35 <elliott> I've forgotten the schedule
22:52:40 <ais523> I'm relatively confident that they'll get their DE fixed eventually
22:52:42 <Taneb> The 10/10 was just for 2010
22:52:49 <Taneb> It'll be on the 21st, I think
22:52:56 <elliott> Taneb: Not two months exactly
22:53:09 <elliott> ais523: OK, then I'd better jump ship sooner or later...
22:53:15 <elliott> this version is bound to bitrot eventually, after all
22:53:31 <ais523> I'm on the LTS version
22:53:37 <monqy> what's this new DE
22:53:48 <ais523> once support's about to end, I'll upgrade to the current Ubuntu if it's usable, or probably Debian if it isn't
22:54:02 <elliott> supported until a few months before the end of the world, it seems
22:54:08 <ais523> I think every 4th is an LTS
22:54:34 <elliott> I'm just wary of Debian because I'm sceptical of how well it'll work on this hardware OOTB
22:54:40 <elliott> It might need a lot of hacking even to boot
22:54:50 <ais523> is it really weird hardware?
22:54:57 <elliott> ais523: it's Apple, so yes
22:55:04 <elliott> and a relatively recent Apple model at that
22:55:20 <monqy> is hte keybaord still broken
22:55:22 <elliott> recent enough that Ubuntu 10.04 wouldn't even be able to connect to the internet with it, I think
22:55:30 <elliott> well, without the separate, money-costing Ethernet adaptor
22:55:33 <elliott> monqy: yes I'm going to fix that
22:55:40 <elliott> just need to back up and start the lion installer
22:56:01 <monqy> what wikll you do whale it's off
22:56:26 <ais523> elliott: the one that's almost the same as mine but an inch larger?
22:56:34 <monqy> does the new ubuntu de have a name i want to see how bad it is
22:56:36 <Taneb> I wonder what the folks at Canonical will call 15.10
22:57:13 <ais523> elliott: presumably he means looking at screenshots/videos
22:57:15 <ais523> rather than actually using it
22:57:18 <elliott> I couldn't even use the latest Ubuntu with GNOME, because they'd made the mouse pointer move differently in some subtle way that made me utterly inaccurate
22:57:25 <elliott> Taneb: you're a bad person who thinks bad things and has bad opinions :(
22:57:30 <monqy> right. i don't want to use unity. i hate deskop environments.
22:57:47 <elliott> I was thinking I could just reverse all the changes made to the mouse handling if I could find out what they were
22:57:53 <monqy> unity and its range of technologies brings simplicity, power, and integration to both users and application developers. unity puts design, integration, and Free Software at the heart of delivering a powerful and attractive experience.
22:57:58 <elliott> but then I realised that downgrading would leave me with basically the same system
22:58:01 <elliott> and relieve me of my anger
22:58:04 <ais523> I don't think it's unsalvageable, but I'm not confident it'll be salvaged in a plausible amount of time
22:58:11 <elliott> monqy: technically Unity isn't a DE, just a shell for GNOME
22:58:41 <NihilistDandy> Grass Starter Special
Bulbasaur-
1/2 shot lime vodka
1/4 shot lime juice
1/4 shot melon liqueur
Ivysaur-
1 shot lime vodka
1 shot lime juice
1 shot melon liqueur
1 shot sprite
Venusaur-
1 Bulbasaur
1 Ivysaur
1 shot lime vodka
1 shot lime juice
1 shot sprite
22:58:42 <elliott> ais523: oh yeah, and the GNOME packages will presumably become GNOME 3 soon enough, now that they're being relegated to not being on the disc
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22:59:22 <elliott> I guess I'll probably just switch to Debian and maybe Xfce or possibly xmonad
22:59:31 <elliott> monqy: what window manager do you ouse, help
22:59:47 <ais523> elliott: xmonad plays badly with gnome-nm-applet
22:59:55 <ais523> and pulseaudio, for that matter
23:00:04 <elliott> ais523: I'm sure plenty of people use it with NetworkManager, it just won't work OOTB
23:00:07 <elliott> and how recent is that info?
23:00:23 <elliott> but, I don't like NetworkManager or PulseAudio, so I don't care much
23:00:42 <elliott> googling brings up http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=843341 wrt networkmanager
23:00:48 <elliott> I don't see how xmonad could mess up pulseaudio
23:01:06 <elliott> ais523: but, umm, do you have a more specific bit of info than "plays badly"?
23:01:07 <zzo38> This is one such recording of playing pokemon card: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/record.1
23:01:13 <ais523> elliott: it's what happened last time
23:01:23 <ais523> elliott: pulseaudio just doesn't load when I load xmonad
23:01:27 <ais523> presumably I'd hve to start it by hand
23:01:33 <elliott> ais523: that... is not xmonad's fault?
23:01:35 <elliott> that's your distro's fault
23:01:40 <elliott> for not supplying start scripts with it
23:01:43 <ais523> it isn't xmonad's fault at all, but it's still annoying
23:01:57 <elliott> well, it seems disingenuous to respond to someone mentioning xmonad by blaming a distro issue on it
23:02:05 <elliott> is the "problem" with nm-apple the same?
23:02:19 <ais523> elliott: it's more that there's nowhere on the screen to put it
23:02:21 <ais523> it's a really tiny icon
23:02:26 <ais523> and xmonad gives it about half the screen
23:02:26 <elliott> ais523: of course there is, if you run a tray program
23:02:36 <elliott> well, xmonad isn't really convention over configuration...
23:02:39 <ais523> even tray programs don't work well with xmonad
23:02:46 <ais523> because they can't be placed easily either
23:02:47 <elliott> sure they do, most people use it with one
23:02:55 <ais523> I've tried starting gnome-panel, xmonad still gives it half the screen
23:03:15 <coppro> might require some xmonad.hs twiddling
23:03:21 <coppro> but trayer is minimalistic and works out of the box
23:03:56 <elliott> ais523: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Xmonad/Frequently_asked_questions#Make_space_for_a_panel_dock_or_tray
23:04:25 <ais523> I suppose I'm just annoyed at having to configure a DE
23:04:46 <elliott> it certainly doesn't claim to be one on its config page
23:05:00 <ais523> well, it's not even a DE, and yet I still have to configure it!
23:05:00 <elliott> ais523: I think the xmonad-contrib package has various "DWIM" configurations you can use in the xmonad config file
23:05:13 <elliott> but I suspect most people don't use them
23:06:03 * elliott wonders if Yi is developed any more
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23:07:22 <elliott> I should rewrite leaden sometime :-P
23:07:32 <elliott> no elliott, shut up, you're working on elliottcraft
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23:08:16 <monqy> disappointmnet/part
23:08:33 <monqy> is it a good editor
23:08:48 <elliott> i don't know, i liked it?? in theory
23:09:48 <monqy> i always forget why i don't use yi then i try it again then i remember then i forget
23:10:22 <elliott> i never really liked yi.... it is not polished.... at all....
23:11:21 <elliott> http://www.illogicopedia.org/wiki/R_(programming_language)
23:11:28 <elliott> Content is available under Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 2.5 .
23:11:28 <ais523> that would explain the broken links
23:11:53 <elliott> and that same nick on illogicopedia is used on wikipedia by the same person
23:11:57 <elliott> (or so they claim on their illogicopedia user page)
23:12:09 <elliott> so the burden of proof is on them to say they're the same person using another nickname, which I doubt
23:12:26 <monqy> i just use vim but sometimes i feel i should learn emacs and decide if i like it more but then i either get scared or never bother :'(
23:12:30 <elliott> yay now we can tell them off sternly........ and pretend it is for copyvio....... (but it is for liking a terrible language....)
23:13:19 <elliott> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Nerd42
23:13:34 <elliott> the person behind R left uncyclopedia because sex isn't funny and they need content warnings and also Ribaldry Cycle???
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23:16:37 <ais523> thanks for catching that elliott
23:18:03 <elliott> I wish I knew more about OpenGL internals so I could structure this change with more confidence
23:18:29 <monqy> i'm afraid of opengl intenrals
23:19:03 <monqy> and what change is this
23:19:23 <oerjan> This. Changes. Everything!
23:20:25 <itidus20> so what did the R page actually say?
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