00:00:39 <CakeProphet> /usr/share/dict/gaelic: ISO-8859 C program text
00:25:27 <CakeProphet> oh for some reason this condition is always failing
00:25:33 <CakeProphet> next if $seen{$word} || $word =~ /[^\p{Alphabetic}\p{Letter}\p{Dash_Punctuation}\p{Connector_Punctuation}']/
00:25:40 <CakeProphet> fizzie: anything look wrong with that regex?
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00:29:39 <CakeProphet> fizzie: right now I'm using an optional encoding option and then interpolating the value of that option into :encoding($blah)
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00:39:52 <zzo38> I implemented part of the "Funreps" system that I have discussed. I implemented Show instance, so that, Case [(LocalP, Apply (Apply (Arith 0 True Add) (Local 0)) (Literal $ NumLit 1) )] is displayed as { L: <<s0.Add L0> 1>; }
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00:48:39 <zzo38> (It means a function to increment a signed bignum)
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01:07:35 * CakeProphet should buy a desktop, overclock the processor to 5 Ghz, and get some kind of ridiculous liquid nitrogen cooling system.
01:15:07 <pikhq_> Liquid nitrogen? Lame.
01:15:25 <pikhq_> Your computer should be cool enough that superconducting wiring is practical.
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02:32:32 <CakeProphet> bleh. looking for apartments on craigslist. :P
02:37:14 <CakeProphet> especially when it specifically requests a gender.
02:38:33 <shachaf> CakeProphet: According to craigslist, those are illegal except in the case of shared housing.
02:39:09 <shachaf> CakeProphet: http://www.padmapper.com/ , by the way.
02:41:44 <CakeProphet> oh look some of these were already on craiglist
02:42:06 <shachaf> Right, it just scrapes craigslist etc.
02:43:20 <CakeProphet> I wonder how many places are cool with pet snakes.
02:43:32 <CakeProphet> since they're not like cats and dogs in terms of mess.
02:44:45 * shachaf ought to move somewhere with a window, as he keeps telling himself.
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02:46:43 <shachaf> Apparenlty housing is 77% cheaper in Atlanta than here.
02:47:07 <CakeProphet> fortunately yes. my budget can really only handle like $400 at the most.
02:47:21 <CakeProphet> I've found some retardedly cheap places at like $125
02:47:36 <shachaf> You should move to Palo Alto.
02:48:57 <CakeProphet> yeah no thanks I'd rather not be homeless.
02:49:53 <CakeProphet> this one is $224 a month for 842ft^2 but it says ??? bathrooms
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03:10:11 <zzo38> Do you have any pet snakes?
03:35:52 <SgeoN2> It means you get 0/0 bathrooms
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03:56:55 <zzo38> I changed char 'a' >> return '\BEL' to '\BEL' <$ char 'a' it seem to work OK.
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05:08:39 <zzo38> I remember in some mathematics class I had in school, they called the calculator's exponent button the "roof" button.
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05:16:32 <zzo38> Should the Funreps (Functional Representation System) program I have, should I add a way to make annotations? Possibly, by making the Exp and Pat types take a type argument, and the Annotation constructor which takes a value of that type and the another Exp/Pat. Does this seem good idea to you, or is there better way?
05:44:49 <SgeoN2> So hyperreals provide infinite and infinitesimal numbers.... and still can't handle 1/0. Is there any system which can?
05:47:43 <SgeoN2> Note to self: Stop mixing up Euler and Euclid.... that shouldn't have even been possible really, Euler's connected with e. Of course he was around after Newton if I thought about it.
05:47:45 <zzo38> I think I read something about some system that can divide by zero, although this causes other things to stop working
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07:48:28 <fizzie> CakeProphet: Apparently what I've done with Encode::Guess earlier is:
07:48:34 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ od -tx1z utf8.txt | head -n 1
07:48:34 <fizzie> 0000000 6d c3 a4 68 0a >m..h.<
07:48:34 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ od -tx1z latin1.txt | head -n 1
07:48:34 <fizzie> 0000000 6d e4 68 0a >m.h.<
07:48:34 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'use Encode; use Encode::Guess; for $f (@ARGV) { open D, "<:raw", $f; $d = join "", <D>; $e = guess_encoding($d, "latin1"); $u = ref $e ? $e->decode($d) : decode("latin1", $d); print "unikoed: $u"; }' utf8.txt latin1.txt
07:50:47 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'use Encode; use Encode::Guess; for $f (@ARGV) { open D, "<:raw", $f; $d = join "", <D>; $e = guess_encoding($d, "latin1"); $enk = ref $e ? $e->name : "latin1"; $u = decode($enk, $d); print "$enk -> unikoed: $u"; }' utf8.txt latin1.txt
07:50:47 <fizzie> latin1 -> unikoed: mäh
07:50:47 <fizzie> iso-8859-1 -> unikoed: mäh
07:51:08 <fizzie> Then it won't be croaking.
07:51:47 <fizzie> Though I really was under the impression that it didn't count the defaults as suspects in the "more-than-two" rule; but apparently it does.
07:52:23 <fizzie> Wait, that's not right. The first one should be from utf8.
07:53:55 <fizzie> Right, it fails (returns non-ref) when it matches both utf8 and latin-1, so the default fallback there should be utf8. And optimally it should distinguish that failure from the rare "neither matched" one.
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09:20:21 <CakeProphet> fizzie: I switched to explicit encoding via the command line option.
09:20:44 <CakeProphet> less of a headache. Dealing with approximate guessing is a pain.
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10:13:14 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> I wonder how many places are cool with pet snakes.
10:13:24 <oerjan> i think i'll expect a dichotomy there.
10:13:39 <oerjan> (1) Oh, Cool, or (2) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
10:17:21 <oerjan> <SgeoN2> So hyperreals provide infinite and infinitesimal numbers.... and still can't handle 1/0. Is there any system which can?
10:42:48 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_theory
10:44:33 <Patashu> what is wheel theory useful for?
10:44:57 <Patashu> it seems to be a mathematical construct of the type 'let's modify the premises and see how much we can prove before running into a brick wall'
10:45:03 <oerjan> answering questions like "Is there any system which can handle 0/0?"
10:45:39 <oerjan> Patashu: which is probably what 99% of mathematicians do :P
10:46:24 <oerjan> might be a _slight_ exaggeration.
10:49:34 <hagb4rd> i really dont see any clue in defining x - x != 0
10:49:50 <Patashu> it's like a mathematical hat trick
10:50:03 <Patashu> it's saying, we've altered the rules of algebra...but we won't tell you what the result is, just what the result -isn't!-
10:50:11 <Patashu> think I'm using the wrong words
10:53:07 <Patashu> if x-x != 0 (in the general sense) then x-x +1 != 1 (in the general sense)
10:53:11 <Patashu> I doubt wheel theory breaks addition
10:53:59 <hagb4rd> so you cannot really say what x-x+1 is right?
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10:54:14 <oerjan> well it's 1 + 0 x^2 >:)
10:55:34 <oerjan> well ok if x = 0/0, then x-x+1 is 0/0
10:55:47 <oerjan> 0/0 is sort of all-absorbing for addition
10:56:03 <Patashu> it's like infinity but 3 times as worse
10:56:08 <Patashu> is it in any way better than NaN?
10:56:20 <oerjan> yes. it is at least equal to itself :P
10:56:44 <Patashu> somehow I don't think #esotericmath would be a very popular channel
10:57:02 <oerjan> we do that here when we do it
10:58:42 <oerjan> but i do suspect little has been done with wheels since they were invented
10:59:17 <Patashu> this video is very enlightening. this is how the modern republican thinks. and the people she debates with are so polite and informed it's a stunning difference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA1py9erpVk
10:59:21 <oerjan> also, i wrote part of that wikipedia article
11:00:19 <oerjan> mind you, i might have been pointed to it from this channel before i did so
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11:02:29 <oerjan> i think it was during a discussion of that nullity thing (which iirc was _not_ equal to itself)
11:04:05 <Patashu> we should just define x/0 to be equal to -1.
11:04:10 <Patashu> hey, it breaks some mathematical identities...
11:04:15 <Patashu> but it means -I- don't have to write error checking code
11:04:53 <Patashu> or maybe have a special syntax, x/y?z, which equals z if y equals 0.
11:05:27 <Patashu> would be ambiguous with :?s around though, hmm...
11:06:24 <hagb4rd> u would stil have problems with division by null
11:06:32 <oerjan> well yes it is easy to define things if you don't need to preserve any rules
11:07:12 <oerjan> the wheels keep commutativity and associativity pretty well
11:08:14 <Patashu> a language where null can be a number is a language I don't want to use
11:08:44 <oerjan> if you say so, mr. ancient greek
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12:12:10 <oerjan> wait, you mean it is _not_ an arcane object of power...
12:13:30 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gottfried_Zinn, apparently
12:21:45 <oerjan> hm is "after" a good preposition to use there, or is my norwegian seeping through?
12:26:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, right, you added Zinn to the article on his Zonule.
12:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> 'For' is sometimes used, but it's not all that natural in that context.
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15:15:15 <Ngevd> I got bored earlier today
15:15:29 <Ngevd> So I began to make Python versions of Haskell prelude functions
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16:22:52 <elliott> CakeProphet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCRPUv8V22o
16:22:53 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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17:17:34 <lambdabot> Network.BSD endNetworkEntry :: IO ()
17:17:36 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent threadDelay :: Int -> IO ()
17:17:37 <lambdabot> System.Console.Editline.Readline setCompletionQueryItems :: Int -> IO ()
17:17:37 <lambdabot> System.Console.Editline.Readline setEnd :: Int -> IO ()
17:18:09 <lambdabot> System.Console.Editline.Readline complete :: Int -> Char -> IO Int
17:18:09 <lambdabot> Control.Exception evaluate :: a -> IO a
17:18:09 <lambdabot> Control.OldException evaluate :: a -> IO a
17:51:07 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Us
17:55:07 <monqy> D# is not rocket surgery although here's what you might not expect from using it. WD# to your chaps.
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18:10:30 <elliott> pikhq: Does bps do well on non-SNES-ROMs?
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18:22:04 <Ngevd> All turing complete languages can in theory be translated to a turing machine
18:23:18 <Ngevd> Even the really weird ones like Unlambda that are nothing like Turing machines
18:23:45 <Ngevd> I'd imagine there are numerous turing machines that are functionally equivalent to eachother on all inputs
18:24:53 <Ngevd> Indeed, I'd imagine for any turing machine there are an infinite number of other turing machines that do the exact same thing on all inputs
18:25:35 <Ngevd> Really, I'm just thinking aloud
18:25:47 <Ngevd> Now I'm thinkng about the Big Bang Theory
18:26:05 <Ngevd> With very little to do with the actual big bang
18:26:05 <elliott> Ngevd: Wait, I thought there was going to be something interesting after all that.
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18:26:21 <Ngevd> monqy evolved, though
18:26:26 <Ngevd> He's now a Vigaroth
18:27:14 <elliott> http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/61/288Vigoroth.png monqy
18:27:43 <monqy> http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/d/d2/287Slakoth.png much better
18:28:55 <Ngevd> Conversely, it should be possible to translate any turing machine into a program in any turing complete programming language
18:29:20 <Ngevd> Whether it be brainfuck, Piet, Iota or Funge-98
18:29:52 <Ngevd> That's not saying there is only four turing complete programming languages
18:29:56 <Ngevd> They were examples
18:30:00 <Ngevd> I will have to go soon
18:30:37 <elliott> You can compile any TC language to any other TC language (modulo ℒ).
18:31:11 <Ngevd> Some languages have features that cannot be translated into other languages
18:31:33 <Ngevd> For instance, many esoteric programming languages have no graphic of file IO or sound or network capabilities
18:31:39 <elliott> IO can be trivially modelled.
18:31:46 <elliott> It does not affect computational class.
18:31:51 <elliott> This is a common misconception.
18:31:56 <Ngevd> They are nonetheless features
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18:32:41 <pikhq> elliott: BPS is quite general, in my experience.
18:32:41 <elliott> <Ngevd> For instance, many esoteric programming languages have no graphic of file IO or sound or network capabilities
18:33:02 <pikhq> elliott: The main problem is that it needs quadratic space, and so gets rather unreasonable above ~20M.
18:33:16 <Phantom___Hoover> Well, you can't exactly play music with BF; he's right in that sense.
18:33:29 <pikhq> Phantom___Hoover: Sure you can.
18:33:38 <pikhq> bfi foo.bf>/dev/dsp
18:33:56 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Note that Turing machines have no IO.
18:33:59 <Phantom___Hoover> It all hinges on a particular IO model which is far from the only one.
18:34:22 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: My point is that you define the IO by an interpretation of the final state.
18:34:34 <elliott> Or even intermediate states (e.g. when the first cell is in state blah, interpret the rest accordingly).
18:34:55 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: I mean, every form of IO comes out to a stream of bits; Turing machines can hardly do anything continuous.
18:35:33 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Erm, right. But I is just an initial state.
18:35:47 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: I mean, OK, you can say that I adds some kind of computational power because it lets "cat" compute Chaitin's number.
18:36:01 <elliott> But none of this nonsense is present in the theoretical model at all, so it's stupid to talk about, really.
18:37:02 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: He was, because he was claiming that you can't translate all TC (implicitly: and not super-TC) languages to each other.
18:37:20 <elliott> Which is the definition of TC. (Well, one of many possible definitions, but it's one removed from the most common definition.)
18:37:38 <Phantom___Hoover> Oh, all I saw was <Ngevd> Some languages have features that cannot be translated into other languages
18:37:55 <elliott> <Ngevd> Conversely, it should be possible to translate any turing machine into a program in any turing complete programming language
18:37:55 <elliott> <Ngevd> Whether it be brainfuck, Piet, Iota or Funge-98
18:37:55 <elliott> <Ngevd> That's not saying there is only four turing complete programming languages
18:37:55 <elliott> <Ngevd> They were examples
18:37:55 <elliott> <Ngevd> I will have to go soon
18:37:57 <elliott> <elliott> Ngevd: That's... obvious.
18:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> You can compile any TC language to any other TC language (modulo ℒ).
18:38:01 <elliott> <Ngevd> Some languages have features that cannot be translated into other languages
18:42:15 <Phantom___Hoover> <elliott> <elliott> You can compile any TC language to any other TC language (modulo ℒ).
18:42:47 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: I don't think anyone seriously believes ℒ is TC.
18:43:00 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Anyway, ℒ relies on input.
18:43:06 <elliott> No input in the theoretical model; problem solved.
18:43:09 <Phantom___Hoover> You're using the compilation definition; ℒ is designed to flag up the absurdity of the UTM definition.
18:43:16 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: See above; it's not absurd.
18:43:34 <elliott> If you embed the input into the program, then... congratulations, ℒ is a Brainfuck derivative where you have to escape the string according to Pascal's rule.
18:43:42 <elliott> And put a Pascal BF interpreter around it.
18:43:47 <elliott> It's literally isomorphic to brainfuck.
18:44:00 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: So no, ℒ only demonstrates the absurdity of naively mixing input into the definition.
18:44:31 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: The whole point of ℒ is that it contains a program that can be made to compute anything a UTM can /given the appropriate input/.
18:45:07 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Define ℒ for me.
18:45:24 <Phantom___Hoover> For every pair of a Turing-complete language L and a program P written in L that simulates a universal Turing machine (for example, by being an interpreter for a Turing-complete language) (L,P) is a member of ℒ.
18:45:47 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: I was trying to get you to give me what you think it is so I can tell you what your misunderstanding is.
18:46:19 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Oh for god's sake, stop being deliberately dense; I'm asking you to state it in your own words so I can tell you what you've misinterpreted.
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18:47:19 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Define interpreter.
18:47:26 <elliott> An interpreter TAKES INPUT.
18:48:30 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: The UTM definition doesn't include any notion of input, so how the fuck does ℒ show it absurd?
18:49:49 <Phantom___Hoover> My interpretation of this was built on what others had said in various discussion.
18:50:22 <elliott> Oh no, Google Code Search id dying.
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19:11:32 <CakeProphet> in what sort of geometry could a 2-sided polygon be made?
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19:31:14 <elliott> oerjan: I replied to you on the wiki
19:31:48 <oerjan> oh noes i must have started a flame war
19:32:04 <elliott> oerjan: btw, I originally tried to make it just wrap properly, but the CSS for that didn't work
19:32:25 <oerjan> i was thinking about asking you about if there was such a feature
19:32:48 * elliott waits for you to read my reply, anyway, so I can pester ais523 about it :P
19:32:49 <oerjan> since my wrapping for the /// quine doesn't seem to work in all browsers
19:33:25 <elliott> oerjan: how did you wrap it?
19:33:33 <elliott> hmm, that is indeed problematic
19:33:38 <elliott> it's only one word, which is why it doesn't wrap
19:33:59 * elliott thinks a horizontal scrollbar is preferable for that one, too
19:34:11 <oerjan> but it looks so nice in IE where it _does_ wrap :P
19:34:50 <elliott> oerjan: well, Firefox wraps it, but Chrome and Safari don't.
19:35:17 <oerjan> and that way you can see its size at a glance
19:35:42 <elliott> oerjan: that doesn't matter if it plain doesn't work in some of the most common browsers :P
19:35:49 * elliott tries to get it to wrap in Chrome
19:36:31 * elliott tries it with the other examples
19:36:59 <elliott> oerjan: ok, I have it word-wrapping
19:37:04 <fizzie> CakeProphet: That's a digon.
19:37:25 <elliott> oerjan: argh, in Chrome but not Firefox
19:37:55 <elliott> oerjan: let me play with this...
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19:38:57 <elliott> oerjan: sigh, ok, I might be able to get this to work
19:39:03 <elliott> oerjan: firefox seems to respect the word-wrap for a div but not a pre
19:39:59 <elliott> oerjan: (with the problem being that you can't add an extra div with CSS...)
19:40:08 <elliott> oerjan: does http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Slashes#Quine wrap for you in IE?
19:40:39 <elliott> ais523: argh, how do you get pre without nowiki?
19:41:02 <oerjan> um isn't that the default?
19:41:03 <ais523> elliott: leading space
19:41:21 <ais523> <pre> is a MediaWiki tag that's equivalent to HTML <pre> plus a partial <nowiki>
19:41:23 <elliott> ais523: how do you do that and also change attributes
19:41:31 <ais523> I never said MediaWiki made sense
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19:41:38 <oerjan> elliott: yes, it looks nice in IE
19:41:54 <elliott> ais523: leading spaces followed by {{ do _not_ produce a pre.
19:42:18 <ais523> I think you can use a different block element and give it styling that makes it equivalent to a pre
19:42:24 <elliott> Since any /// program not containing <code>/</code> or <code>\</code> is trivially a quine, here is one containing ''only'' <code>/</code> and <code>\</code>.
19:42:24 <elliott> {{div|_=style="word-wrap: break-word"|text=/\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\//
19:42:24 <elliott> /\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\//
19:42:27 <elliott> /\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\//
19:42:32 <elliott> /\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\\\/\\////\//\//\/\/\/\\\\/\\//\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\/\\\\////\//\//\/\/\/\\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\\\\////\/\/\}}
19:42:32 <ais523> style="white-space:preserve", IIRC
19:42:37 <elliott> WHY WOULD YOU PRODUCE THAT MARKUP
19:42:43 <elliott> ais523: yep, but you can't put that in common.css :P
19:42:52 * elliott continues trying to make this work
19:43:17 <elliott> wtf, I'm on the latest firefox, too
19:45:00 <fizzie> Put a zero-width space between each character, then they all are potential wrapping-points. Elegant! (Assuming the problem is that "it's only one word" thing. I can't really be bothered to read full context.)
19:45:16 <elliott> aha, I think I've fixed it
19:45:21 <elliott> fizzie: that breaks copying :P
19:46:08 <elliott> oerjan: ok can you force reload that page
19:46:25 <elliott> oerjan: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Slashes&oldid=24876#Quine
19:48:52 <oerjan> yes, although the right margin of the box is strangely larger than usual
19:50:25 <oerjan> about 2.5 times the left margin, i think
19:51:08 <elliott> oerjan: Also it's just balancing out since I removed the : before it.
19:51:13 <elliott> oerjan: So you're happy with this?
19:52:00 <oerjan> it's not so bad, and it still copies as one line
19:52:21 <elliott> oerjan: It could be fixed with an IE-specific stylesheet, most likely.
19:52:22 <oerjan> btw there's another copy on the Quine page :P
19:52:37 <elliott> oerjan: And yeah, yeah, but I'm about to fix 'em all:
19:52:39 <elliott> ais523: Can you add "pre { word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap }" to common.css, please?
19:53:00 <ais523> ouch, that's a really major change
19:53:14 <ais523> it is, because the whole point of pre is that it doesn't break lines
19:53:16 <elliott> ais523: It just wraps overly-long lines visually (in Chrome, IE, Firefox).
19:53:23 <elliott> No, the whole point of pre is that it preserves whitespace.
19:53:25 <elliott> Also, copying works the same way.
19:53:30 <ais523> well, exactly, and that can completely change the meaning of programs
19:53:40 <elliott> ais523: It does not do any hard breaking.
19:54:02 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, the alternative is a horizontal scrollbar on the pre element, which has far more problems.
19:54:05 <ais523> it still does visual breaking, though, which makes programs much harder to read
19:54:16 <ais523> what about just a horizontal scrollbar on the page? a pre doesn't widen the page to its own width
19:54:22 <ais523> so it'd just be useful for scrolling pres
19:54:28 <elliott> That breaks the design; see [[MediaWiki talk:Common.css]].
19:54:37 <elliott> ais523: Nothing is harder to read than a horizontal scrollbar; that's why oerjan explicitly did hacks to make it wrap for his Slashes quine.
19:54:46 <elliott> Note that Slashes /does/ change behaviour on newlines.
19:55:55 <ais523> I can see perhaps wrapping individual programs visually, if people can guess that the line breaks aren't actual newlines
19:57:06 <elliott> ais523: I've already made changes to add horizontal scrollbars to two examples, and now one to do this new method to Slashes; if you won't add it, I'll just have to keep adding it to the examples I come across /shrug
19:57:23 <elliott> ais523: I really very much doubt anyone is confused by wrapping; every programmer's editor I know of defaults to it.
19:57:54 <elliott> (Emacs notifies about it in the margin, but vi and vim don't.)
19:58:07 <elliott> (Nor does Notepad with word-wrapping on (admittedly not the default, but I don't know of anyone who uses it for programming and doesn't turn it on.))
19:58:27 <ais523> Kate goes and puts eight characters of hatching at the start of an overwrapped line
19:58:45 <elliott> gedit also wraps silently by default.
19:58:51 <ais523> I actually find vim's behaviour pretty confusing there
19:59:04 <ais523> and I change gedit's behaviour there quite a lot, /because/ it's so misleading
19:59:10 <elliott> Yes, it's obvious _you_ find it confusing.
19:59:21 <elliott> Clearly most other programmers don't.
19:59:34 <ais523> I often turn wrapping off for the buffer in Emacs in order to make lines line up correctly
19:59:45 <ais523> elliott: think of it this way: suppose someone writes a Funge-98 program that's wider than the page
19:59:51 <ais523> would wrapping that make any sense at all?
20:00:00 <ais523> a horizontal scrollbar would be /significantly/ better than wrapping
20:00:13 <elliott> ais523: It can be overriden on a per-pre basis.
20:00:28 <elliott> Wrapping makes far, far more sense as a default; see: all the changes I've made so far.
20:00:59 <ais523> if you want it to wrap, then why use <pre> rather than <code>? preservation of horizontal whitespace?
20:01:14 <oerjan> btw User:Nthern/Archive is one page which contains code which is both wide enough to give a scrollbar if that's the default, and tall enough to make it awful to use
20:01:25 <elliott> ais523: <code> looks totally different to <pre>, and doesn't preserve newlines, duplicated whitespace, doesn't turn off wiki markup, blah blah blah.
20:01:40 <ais523> elliott: <code><nowiki>turns off wiki markup
20:01:51 <ais523> we really need a separate tag for "preserve horizontal whitespace"
20:02:15 <elliott> ais523: So? It has all the other disadvantages listed.
20:02:21 <elliott> It also looks really bad multi-line.
20:02:28 <elliott> Are you even meant to make a <code> multiline? It's an inline element by default.
20:02:49 <ais523> well, you're suggesting making <pre> act like not a <pre>
20:02:56 <elliott> Anyway, whatever; you're within rights to annoy everyone else on the wiki because of a personal dislike of the saner behaviour.
20:04:43 <ais523> elliott: I'm within my rights to not arbitrarily change the meaning of a well known HTML and wiki tag?
20:05:07 <elliott> ais523: Note the part where I dropped it because you're being unreasonable and it was rapidly heading towards a flamewar.
20:05:25 <ais523> fair enough; the attempt to drop it looked rather like egging on instead, anwyay
20:06:10 <elliott> ais523: No, this is egging on: When are you going to make <pre>s show tabs as eight spaces?
20:06:20 <ais523> they do already, don't they?
20:06:46 <elliott> ais523: Four spaces in every browser since forever.
20:06:53 <oerjan> elliott: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2373#comic
20:07:11 <oerjan> (that was _far_ longer ago than i thought)
20:07:39 <ais523> elliott: Firefox renders it as eight in the edit box, which makes sense
20:07:44 <ais523> and eight on the page too
20:07:55 <elliott> ais523: that's certainly not what older Firefoxes did
20:08:01 <ais523> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
20:08:06 <ais523> do those lines line up in your browser?
20:08:12 <ais523> and I'm using an old Firefox (3.6.something)
20:08:28 <ais523> it's four versions out of date!
20:08:29 <elliott> I bet it's a Linux thing; certainly they've never done that on Windows or OS X
20:09:19 <tiffany> firefox needs to stop going lightspeed with version numbering
20:10:20 <oerjan> to infinity and beyond!
20:11:06 <ais523> I know I threatened to just double AceHack's version number with every release
20:12:57 <ais523> elliott: just tested Chromium and Epiphany on Linux; both have tab=8
20:13:03 <elliott> <elliott> I bet it's a Linux thing; certainly they've never done that on Windows or OS X
20:14:17 <ais523> yep, line up in IE6 too
20:14:26 <ais523> also, in Firefox 10 for Mac (I just asked a friend to test that)
20:14:48 <tiffany> Sooner or later firefox is going to start skipping every other major version number
20:14:58 <ais523> elliott: admittedly I was running IE6 on Linux, but I doubt it special-cases it
20:15:12 <elliott> Things that are totally not completely boring at this point: Firefox versioning rants
20:15:16 <elliott> Above sentence comes from "book of lies".
20:15:32 <ais523> tiffany: well, I have to do cross-browser testing /somehow/
20:15:41 <ais523> and Wine's quite good nowadays, right? no reason you can't run IE6 in it
20:15:52 <elliott> ais523: I guess there was some movement to change it for some reason or another, but I am completely certain that a few years ago on a Mac tabs renderd as four spaces in browsers
20:15:59 <ais523> admittedly, it crashed twice during startup, but still managed to load somehow
20:16:13 <elliott> (it's also the default of a twenty year old editor, for what that's worth)
20:17:18 <elliott> I know you're going to counter this with "people have been living a lie for a very long time" so don't bother.
20:18:48 <ais523> elliott: nah, I'm just going to take it as a data poitn
20:19:10 <elliott> ais523: actually, I think tabs-as-four-spaces might be a /Mac OS/ default in general (it certainly is an OS X default)
20:19:18 <elliott> ais523: so it might be twenty-five years old
20:19:42 <ais523> 'twouldn't be the first time Mac OS were nonstandard
20:19:55 <ais523> I can completely believe that it was using a different tab size to the rest of the universe
20:19:59 <ais523> because it was using a different newline too
20:20:02 <elliott> ais523: how can it be standard, when I'm sure terminal control for tabs was available back then?
20:20:08 <ais523> which is a lot more important for interoperability
20:20:21 <elliott> it predates desktop computers by being the first; there's not really much "standard" to compare to
20:20:23 <ais523> elliott: it's a standard default; tab size has been customizable since typewriters
20:20:38 <ais523> because their intended purpose is for writing tables efficiently
20:20:41 <elliott> ais523: people have been wrong for a very, very long time, then
20:20:44 <ais523> for which, you need tab stops
20:21:04 <ais523> for another data point, QBasic defaults to tab=14, as do many other basic impls, I think
20:21:13 <ais523> so that the columns are actually wide enough to fit data in
20:21:20 <ais523> the use of tabs for indentation is rather more recent
20:21:43 <elliott> ais523: tabs for indentation dates back to at /least/ the original Unix sources
20:22:03 <ais523> elliott: typewriters are older than UNIX, aren't they?
20:22:12 <elliott> ais523: you said that after talking about QBasic
20:22:40 <pikhq> Tabs for indentation in UNIX is courtesy of the first UNIX display being a teletypewriter.
20:24:39 <elliott> pikhq: I'm sure it dates back to at least Multics
20:26:34 <pikhq> elliott: It's an artifact of typewriter design, though.
20:27:08 <pikhq> So, of course it dates back further.
20:27:24 <elliott> It's a more reasonable artifact than deciding to hammer the space key a lot, and then going "ooh, we should build this into the editor".
20:27:37 <elliott> pikhq: But yes, people wrote code on typewriters a lot, didn't they?
20:27:49 <oerjan> as a norwegian, i am disappointed by the lack of whales in http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2393#comic
20:28:10 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, what else would you write Fortran on in 1957? Surely people didn't publish punchcards when they shared code. Although admittedly probably they didn't share code much.
20:29:09 <pikhq> Additionally, until the invention of the glass teletype, any interactive input to a computer was going to be with a typewriter.
20:29:09 <fizzie> Ooh, a pneumatic-tube-based punchcard-github.
20:29:35 <elliott> Pneumatic tubes are so cool.
20:29:46 <elliott> (My first exposure to them was Grim Fandango, which is odd in retrospect.)
20:29:55 <ais523> hmm, what was the original application for teletypewriters, before they were used as computer terminals?
20:29:56 <elliott> (The exposure, I mean. Not the game. That was odd at the time too.)
20:30:04 <ais523> some sort of substitute for telegrams?
20:30:20 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/WACsOperateTeletype.jpg
20:30:22 <ais523> so you'd type at one end and it'd print at the other end?
20:30:28 <ais523> typos would be a little hard to notice
20:30:31 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: I played Grim Fandango at a rather early age.
20:30:36 <elliott> ais523: I'm sure it printed locally too.
20:31:14 <pikhq> Also, it wasn't a substitute for telegrams, it was telegrams. :)
20:31:23 <fizzie> There used to be a tube-driven cigarette sales system in our supermarket (and many others) -- you punch a button on a big table to indicate the brand, and after a moment a box pops out on the grocery-conveyor-belt. But it's been "temporarily broken" more often than not lately, and I have a feeling they're trying to give it up.
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20:32:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you mentioned it as being an available choice or something.
20:33:53 <fizzie> Oh, and a friend once told a story about a hospital, where the blood bags were delivered using a series of tubes, and they had a habit of breaking. That's... quite an awkwardly cleanable mess.
20:34:05 <ais523> pikhq: ah, it was how telegrams were implemented? I assumed they were morse code, for some reason
20:34:49 <elliott> ais523: A telegraph message sent by an electrical telegraph operator or telegrapher using Morse code (or a printing telegraph operator using plain text) was known as a telegram. A cablegram (see cablegram) was a message sent by a submarine telegraph cable,[1] often shortened to a cable or a wire. Later, a Telex was a message sent by a Telex network, a switched network of teleprinters similar to a telephone network.
20:35:19 <ais523> well, the word "tty" isn't used with its original meaning any more
20:35:21 <ais523> and hasn't been for decades
20:35:22 <pikhq> ais523: A telegram is pretty much any form of remote signalling, especially ones sending directly over the wire like a Morse keyer would.
20:35:43 <pikhq> A teletypewriter messaging scheme could be used for telegrams, as could More code.
20:35:57 <ais523> I think telegrams still theoretically exist, although I forget who's responsible for delivering them
20:36:02 <ais523> I suspect it's the post service
20:36:13 <fizzie> Doesn't the Telex network also still theoretically exist?
20:36:56 <fizzie> "Telex is still in operation, but has been mostly superseded by fax, email, and SWIFT, although radiotelex (telex via HF radio) is still used in the maritime industry and is a required element of the GMDSS" -- apparently, if you can trust Wikipedia. And if you can't trust Wikipedia, what *can* you trust?
20:37:11 <fizzie> (Except W|A, of course.)
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20:45:16 <zzo38> Why is the sunrise/sunset displayed in Astrolog a few minutes off from the official sunrise/sunset? Solar noon appears to be correct, though.
20:48:50 <ais523> zzo38: do you live right in the middle of your timezone?
20:48:55 <elliott> Haven't you already asked that?
20:48:57 <ais523> and at the exact same latitude?
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20:51:40 <zzo38> ais523: I have computed solar noon using different programs, and at least at 0N 0E the times of solar noon appear to correspond with the start of the tenth house in some systems (including Equal (MC)) and with the times displayed on the rising/setting charts. But rise/set mismatch; if I set the ayanamsa to -3.6 it works but the ayanamsa has nothing to do with sunrise/sunset, so why does it do that?
20:52:06 <oerjan> zzo38: could it be difference between center and edge of sun?
20:53:17 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, maybe. I know there are different sunrise/sunset values, such as official, nautical, civil; but the ones shown by default in the rising/setting chart in Astrolog match none of those.
20:53:54 <zzo38> However, Swiss Ephemeris is probably better; I read its documentation and it can calculate rise/set with nautical twilight, and civil twilight, and so on.
20:54:27 <elliott> zzo38: Why do you want to use Astrolog, anyway?
20:54:30 <zzo38> Maybe I should make the program that uses Swiss Ephemeris; unlike Astrolog, it is compatible with GNU GPL so it is properly Free software/open source software.
20:54:53 <zzo38> I could probably even include better search functions.
20:56:55 <zzo38> And as far as I can tell, Astrolog has no option to set the zoom level for the solar system view.
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21:12:43 <zzo38> Other features I would like to have (and might implement) are:
21:13:34 <zzo38> * Order of a pair of objects with an aspect is relevant (except Conjunct and Opposite).
21:14:10 <zzo38> * Set the zero point of the zodiac such that a specific object is fixed at zero.
21:14:47 <zzo38> * Ability to automatically plot things with exposure, instead of stepping manually.
21:15:24 <zzo38> * Search function for aspects and other things.
21:16:06 <zzo38> * In transit search, specify number of divisions of the circle; and use any display of angles (zodiac names, hours/minutes, or degrees)
21:16:49 <zzo38> * Use of other calendar systems.
21:17:43 <zzo38> * Ability to set orb values based on diameters of objects.
21:18:25 <zzo38> * Barycentric and astrometic modes.
21:18:44 <zzo38> * Ability to use true positions or apparent positions.
21:19:48 <zzo38> * Can switch on/off precession, nutation, gravitational deflection, aberration of light, etc.
21:20:08 <zzo38> * Can use radians for angular measurement.
21:21:01 <CakeProphet> fizzie: ah, so a digon is like an eyelid. :D
21:21:11 <zzo38> * Four-house system: rise, solar noon, set, and midnight.
21:21:50 <zzo38> * Ability to plot any set of variables on a calendar, graph, or text chart.
21:22:10 <zzo38> * Ability to display the IAU zodiac.
21:22:31 <CakeProphet> well no, it's the eyelid, but the surface of the eye itself.
21:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, how did bigons become a topic of discussion.
21:25:41 <zzo38> * Ability to toggle any of the outer rings on the horoscope (Astrolog has three and you cannot change them).
21:27:06 <zzo38> Is this good enough? However, there are some features I intend to purposely omit, such as the interpretation mode of Astrolog.
21:28:06 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere#Eleven_properties_of_the_sphere
21:28:14 <CakeProphet> I read this as "Elven properties of the sphere"
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21:31:11 <oerjan> the elven harmony of the spheres
21:33:07 <fizzie> Great Cubicuboctahedron in the Sky, we beseech you.
21:34:31 <CakeProphet> Noncovex great rhombicuboctahedron is pretty cool guy too.
21:34:46 <CakeProphet> I wonder if there is a rhombicubicuboctahedron?
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21:39:35 <Timwi> I really just wanted to ask whether anyone has seen my esolang, Ziim, which I posted yesterday, and what the first impression was
21:41:45 <Timwi> That was the idea :-p
21:42:42 <CakeProphet> Timwi: I can see that there a lot of points to point out.
21:44:09 <Timwi> Left to right? It goes all over the place :)
21:44:20 <CakeProphet> as if you reverse the direction of the arrows they can have different meanings.
21:44:20 <Timwi> I conjecture that it’s harder to program in than Malbolge
21:44:32 <Timwi> Reverse yes, rotate no
21:44:54 <elliott> Malbolge isn't that hard to code in. OK so it is.
21:44:58 <Timwi> No, but you mentioned left to right :)
21:45:25 <Timwi> I hate that Malbolge is constantly mentioned as an example of a hard-to-program-in language. There are loads on the wiki that are harder than Malbolge :)
21:45:26 <CakeProphet> right there's an inherent meaning to left and right. specifically in label vs. concat
21:45:27 <monqy> what's a 45 degrees rotation
21:46:05 <Timwi> monqy: I know, I know, you can’t just rotate a whole program 45° :)
21:46:28 <elliott> Timwi: Pah, only if you're restrained to textual file formats.
21:46:35 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy comes from a dimension where the quantum of angular motion is 90°.
21:46:39 * elliott takes a screenshot of program, prints it out, puts on wooden table, photographs, rotates photograph.
21:47:01 <Zwaarddijk> is there any programming lang with rotations and rotation-resistant elements?
21:47:05 <CakeProphet> elliott: don't forget to scan it and then use an image to text translator program.
21:47:07 <Timwi> elliott: No image editing program available, eh? :)
21:47:25 <elliott> Timwi: It was an old TDWTF reference. I probably messed it up though.
21:47:32 <Timwi> Zwaarddijk: Yes, Ziim and Funciton (mine :-p)
21:47:36 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Well, lots of CAs are rotation-invariant.
21:47:48 <Timwi> Ah yeah, CAs, forgot about those
21:47:53 <CakeProphet> Timwi: or is the label vs concat distinction a before and after one rather than whether the arrows are pointing left or right?
21:47:56 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Cellular automata.
21:48:04 <elliott> (The "s" is silent and invisible.)
21:48:09 <Timwi> CakeProphet: It’s determined by the relative angles
21:48:11 <oerjan> it would seem that a square greed of arrows doesn't really support an invertible 45 degree symmetry operation
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21:48:28 <monqy> the s killed the on and all that's left is a mangled heap of a
21:48:35 <Timwi> oerjan: Correct... unfortunately
21:48:35 <oerjan> although if you just increase the spacing a bit, it should work
21:49:14 <Timwi> Anyone know how to apply for adminship on the wiki?
21:49:32 <Timwi> I would really like to add some CSS rules and make some articles (especially tables) more readable
21:49:47 <Timwi> It’s really annoying to have to add them to every single table cell...
21:50:49 <oerjan> Zwaarddijk: backflip has two different kind of elements that might be thought of as rotating, also you can make a combined structure which acts as a rotation-resistant mirror
21:51:32 <Zwaarddijk> I as more thinking like coding with two layers
21:51:37 <Zwaarddijk> one which rotates, and one which stays put
21:51:57 <Timwi> Is anyone of you an admin on the wiki and could add some CSS rules for me perhaps?
21:52:18 <elliott> I think he's away right now though
21:52:44 <Zwaarddijk> and these are indistinguishable by the 'head' that reads the code - but the thing that rotates parts of the code does distinguish them
21:53:04 <Timwi> Whoa, only 7 admins
21:53:14 <CakeProphet> what if esowiki was converted to a hackiki :)
21:53:44 <elliott> Timwi: There's more admins than there are active editors. :p
21:53:49 <CakeProphet> though I do like the mediawiki look and feel.
21:53:49 <monqy> but spambots are good
21:53:51 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, a poll was held, popular opinion was in favour, and precisely nothing happened.
21:53:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No it wasn't.
21:54:07 <elliott> Popular opinion was in favour of Gregor making an adjacent Hackiki so we could all ignore it.
21:54:08 <Timwi> I wasn’t planning on changing the MediaWiki look and feel
21:54:38 <CakeProphet> I brought up hackiki because I believe it would allow you to do precisely what you want to do without an admin.
21:55:03 <elliott> I don't think any sane Hackiki configuration would allow you embed site-wide arbitrary CSS.
21:55:07 <elliott> That's a big ol' security hole.
21:55:08 <Timwi> Not having restrictions on users would also allow me to do it :-p
21:55:22 <CakeProphet> elliott: well wouldn't it be local to a page though?
21:55:38 <Timwi> Not if I could edit MediaWiki:Common.css
21:55:41 <elliott> Timwi: It'd also let you create massive security holes
21:56:08 <Timwi> I agree that it gives users the ability to make drastic changes to the entire site, which would be problematic
21:56:32 <monqy> i want to see a spambot replace the entirety of mediawiki:common.css with compliments
21:56:34 <Timwi> But honestly, thinking that “let’s completely lock them out” is the only alternative solution is really dumb
21:56:52 <elliott> It doesn't lock them out, it lets sysops edit them :p
21:56:59 <Timwi> That’s what I’m saying
21:57:02 <Timwi> It locks everyone else out. Completely
21:57:35 <monqy> how completely is completely
21:57:39 <Timwi> So how do I best contact someone about adminship?
21:57:50 <monqy> there are ways to pester people who can edit the page to make the edits you want
21:58:03 <elliott> Timwi: graue@oceanbase.org; didn't you already do that, though?
21:58:24 <Timwi> I thought I did, but there’s nothing in my Sent folder, and I had no address of him in my address book, so I guess not
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22:02:15 <zzo38> I do not agree to convert esolang wiki to Hackiki; I do agree to make up a seperate esolang wiki which is Hackiki, so that you have both. And allow the Hackiki programs to have read access to the Mediawiki installation.
22:03:05 <zzo38> With Hackiki, any user can add skins, add-ins, new commands, and more.
22:03:19 <elliott> Hmm, Hackiki /does/ allow people to create skins?
22:05:03 <Timwi> Why can’t we just be more liberal in giving adminship :( I mean it’s not like everyone’s going to jump in and kill everything
22:05:27 <Timwi> I know I’m sounding pushy :p I’m just frustrated with this
22:06:12 <elliott> Timwi: Well, only one person has the authority to do it in the first place, software-wise.
22:07:10 <Timwi> I’m amazed more people aren’t frustrated about it as I am
22:07:13 <Timwi> Especially on Wikipedia
22:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Join RationalWiki— wait, I think they changed that because it turns out that doing that is stupid.
22:08:29 <Timwi> Doing what? I haven’t even suggested anything specific :)
22:08:47 <CakeProphet> I'd say templates are the best way to go if you're tired of entering repetitive style info.
22:09:17 <Timwi> I don’t see how that can help styling tables. You’d still need to add the template for every cell.
22:09:38 <elliott> Timwi: My point was, if you want more liberalisation of the adminshipness, there's only one person to go to about it.
22:09:47 <Timwi> elliott: Yeah, I know
22:09:50 * elliott thinks we're fine with the set of admins we have; ais523 is active here, and all the spam gets cleaned up rapidly.
22:10:14 <Timwi> The old “we have enough admins therefore we shouldn’t have any more” argument?
22:10:30 <Timwi> (in case it wasn’t clear, I don’t understand that argument; it makes no sense)
22:11:14 <zzo38> I found article in Wikipedia about digital sundial.
22:11:33 <CakeProphet> Timwi: "We have enough /active/ admins" makes perfect sense.
22:11:42 <CakeProphet> having only one inactive admin/op/whatever is awful though.
22:11:45 <elliott> Timwi: I don't think we need more, so why have more?
22:12:00 <elliott> it's strictly more load for Graue to add them, so it's obviously very slightly inferior at the very least
22:12:19 <CakeProphet> as long as the admins are active and numerous enough to handle current demands then there's no need for more.
22:12:21 <zzo38> Hackiki allows users to create whatever program they want, and that can include skins too
22:12:23 <Timwi> What, you mean because he need to go in and flip a switch?
22:12:26 <elliott> and making more people admin carries the risk of making the wrong people admin
22:12:45 <elliott> Timwi: if the admin workload is fully accounted for, then adding more admins doesn't benefit anything, and it's a slight amount of work for Graue to add them
22:12:53 <elliott> so, the situation is at /least/ very slightly inferior
22:12:58 <elliott> and probably moreso, because <elliott> and making more people admin carries the risk of making the wrong people admin
22:13:13 <Timwi> My ability to add styling rules doesn’t benefit anything? Are you sure you know what you’re saying there?
22:13:44 <Timwi> “making the wrong people admin” — what’s the worst that can happen? That you have to de-admin them back
22:14:04 <elliott> Timwi: Well, you haven't told us what rules you want yet.
22:14:09 <elliott> And no, they could execute a major security exploit.
22:14:23 <elliott> At least one very common browser lets CSS execute arbitrary JS, I believe; almost certainly more than that.
22:14:34 <Timwi> You mean there’s a known security vulnerability that admins can exploit?
22:14:34 <elliott> hmm, can't admins edit .js files anyway?
22:14:43 <elliott> Timwi: yep, that's why you don't make non-trustable people admins
22:14:51 <elliott> which is why you have a process
22:14:54 <elliott> and are conservative about it
22:15:00 <Timwi> So where’s the process in esolangs wiki? :-p
22:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> At least one very common browser lets CSS execute arbitrary JS, I believe; almost certainly more than that.
22:15:27 <Timwi> But anyway, like I said before, the biggest mistake is to have an all-or-nothing; either you can do everything (including dangerous) or almost nothing
22:15:36 <elliott> Timwi: all the people who are admins are community elders, and the workload is handled, so we don't really need a process :)
22:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> You can hijack people's accounts with it easily enough.
22:16:05 <monqy> how almost nothing is almost nothing
22:16:15 <Timwi> With all due respect, the workload is clearly not handled; there are still no styling rules for anything, most notably tables :)
22:16:31 <elliott> Timwi: well, have you asked anyone to add them? there is a table styling rule, btw
22:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ld633/what_is_something_that_never_fails_to_blow_your/c2rr33b
22:17:07 <Timwi> elliott: I just asked who’s an admin and the answer was “nobody who’s active”
22:17:45 <Timwi> OK so who do I ask?
22:17:53 <elliott> you could try keymaker, but I'd just put it on a relevant talk page
22:18:01 <elliott> that's why they exist, after all :)
22:19:03 <Timwi> If I spent hours on designing these rules only to have the request ignored or rejected, I’ll be really upset
22:19:24 <Timwi> (as I’m sure would you)
22:19:26 <elliott> Timwi: as opposed to hours designing them only to have another admin revert because they would have rejected a request?
22:19:37 <elliott> being an admin doesn't stop consensus from mattering :-)
22:19:56 <Timwi> But being an admin allows me to demonstrate the CSS :-p
22:20:35 <elliott> Timwi: people can add CSS rules with User:foo/<skinname>.css; an admin would do that before rejecting the request
22:21:06 <Timwi> I know... fine, I’ll add some rules there
22:21:44 * CakeProphet requests guidance from the Great Cubicuboctahedron on the matter.
22:22:13 <CakeProphet> and the Great Cubicuboctahedron spake, "fuck thou."
22:22:42 <Timwi> Hm, it’s not working... is there a setting I need to set to enable it?
22:22:57 <CakeProphet> the Great Cubicuboctahedron is a very apathetic godhead.
22:23:48 <elliott> Timwi: I'm pretty sure you have to set a setting to make it work
22:23:55 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_cubicuboctahedron.png what is this blasphemy.
22:23:58 <elliott> Timwi: oh, wait, did you clear your cache?
22:24:10 <CakeProphet> it is forbidden to depict his likeness in an inferior 2D projection.
22:24:17 <Timwi> I’m not doing anything differently from Wikipedia, where it works :-p
22:24:27 <CakeProphet> his glory must be beheld on all three axes.
22:24:28 <elliott> maybe our mediawiki version is too old
22:24:48 <tiffany> I suppose a great cubicuboctahedron is higher than 3D isn't it?
22:24:49 <Timwi> Can’t find a relevant option
22:25:06 <tiffany> also that name sounds like someone was high when they came up with it
22:25:35 <Timwi> Then I can’t do it :(
22:25:42 <Timwi> Well, I can do it offline, but I can’t demonstrate it
22:25:44 <tiffany> when you said inferior 2D projection I was thinking it was 4 or 5D
22:25:51 <CakeProphet> though perhaps the nonconvex great rhombicuboctahedron is a greater deity.
22:25:53 <elliott> Timwi: admins can, by temporarily setting the CSS
22:25:58 <elliott> and then reverting it if they don't like it
22:26:15 <Timwi> I think the wiki just went down? o.O
22:26:16 <Phantom_Hoover> -choron is the proposed 4D equivalent, but nobody really uses it.
22:26:17 <tiffany> what is with these weird names
22:26:22 <CakeProphet> and then -choron is 4D I believe. a specific kind of 4D shape.
22:26:57 <CakeProphet> tiffany: this is "advanced" mathematics I don't know what you were expecting...
22:26:59 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, no, -choron is Greek for 'room', since polychora are formed from 3D shapes fitted together.
22:27:01 <monqy> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/P2-A5-P3.gif all hail
22:27:20 <Timwi> elliott: Could you try adding CSS for yourself to see if it works for you?
22:27:49 <elliott> Timwi: are you sure you're using monobook? :-P
22:28:04 <elliott> Timwi: Do you have a link to a .nice?
22:28:09 <Timwi> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sclipting
22:28:34 <CakeProphet> monqy: its expanding and contracting form greatly inspires me with divine fervor.
22:29:00 <elliott> Timwi: hmm, it doesn't seem to work here either, but I'm not sure I cleared the cache right
22:29:12 <elliott> tiffany: your eye looks broken
22:29:14 <CakeProphet> the idea is to reduce bytes not characters, but sure, that's a fine goal too.
22:29:16 <elliott> tiffany: one of them is floating
22:29:52 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: spheres are the best manifold of course.
22:30:23 <CakeProphet> or is a 2-sphere considered 3D? I'm not sure how that works.
22:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a 2D manifold, normally embedded in 3D; and I should have said 'embedded in 3D' instead.
22:31:00 <elliott> No spheres are ten-dimensional. I read it in a book.
22:31:26 <CakeProphet> tiffany: a ball is the inside of a sphere, the sphere is the surface. a n-sphere is the surface of a (n+1)-ball.
22:31:27 <tiffany> isn't an infinite dimensional hypercube a sphere?
22:31:35 <Phantom_Hoover> A sphere is normally taken to be the set of points at distance r from some point in R^3.
22:31:36 <tiffany> because it has infinite points
22:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover> The inside of a sphere is a ball, but balls can be of any dimension.
22:32:11 <Timwi> “because it has infinite points”? You think anything with an infinite number of points is a sphere?
22:32:32 <tiffany> if it's a cube with all the sides normalised they'd be infinite points all x distance away from the origin
22:32:43 <tiffany> assuming it's centered at the origin
22:33:01 <Phantom_Hoover> In mathematical notation, an n-sphere would be the set of points at distance r from some point in R^(n+).
22:33:10 <Timwi> Not sure what you mean by “normalised”. I’m not even sure what “infinite-dimensional” means :)
22:34:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Infinite dimensional is meaningful, but unfortunately it's too late at night for me to remember exactly what it means.
22:34:11 <tiffany> normalised being 1 unit from the centre o.o
22:34:24 <tiffany> and infinite dimensional being infinite axises
22:34:51 <CakeProphet> I don't think cubes work that way. Not very point would be 1 unit from a center.
22:35:12 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, general spheres, no, but the difference is not terribly important.
22:35:20 <tiffany> and I mean like the corner points
22:35:24 <tiffany> not including the points on the sides
22:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> tiffany, an infinite-dimensional hypercube is not in fact a sphere.
22:35:45 <CakeProphet> it's just... an infinite-dimensional hypercube, right?
22:36:03 <tiffany> but it'd have an infinite amount of points all x distance from the origin?
22:36:10 <elliott> This is reminding me of oklopol's infinite-dimensional four-in-a-row.
22:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> The difference is that oko has in fact studied topology, unlike everyone currently speaking.
22:37:00 <Phantom_Hoover> <tiffany> isn't an infinite dimensional hypercube a sphere?
22:37:02 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: I have done some /very extensive/ reading of Wikipedia in the past few hours thank you very much
22:37:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think he had at the time.
22:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hypersphere_coord.PNG
22:37:10 <Timwi> I had a topology lecture course at uni :-p
22:37:14 <CakeProphet> I am certified topowskkrokgloyggicall master.
22:37:14 <Timwi> don’t remember any of it though
22:37:16 <elliott> It was when he was YOUNG AND FREE.
22:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I plan to study topology soon? Although I don't actually know how long I have to wait.
22:37:40 <CakeProphet> tiffany: but yeah again not every point on a hypercube is x distance from the center.
22:37:56 <tiffany> I want to take more advanced math classes
22:37:56 <CakeProphet> so extending a hypercube to infinite dimensions doesn't change anything about that.
22:38:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh effing hell, Cambridge doesn't do algebraic topology until third year.
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22:41:03 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: topology is a 4th year class at my school
22:41:08 <CakeProphet> completely optional. I bet no one takes it.
22:41:52 <elliott> CakeProphet: "Nobody would take an advanced maths course except maths majors"
22:41:58 <elliott> What a stunningly controversial statement.
22:42:16 <CakeProphet> elliott: well I would expect some computer science majors as well.
22:42:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Cambridge.... why.... do you need... my photograph.....
22:42:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, they need your phonograph.
22:42:57 <elliott> The /other/ Cambridge university.
22:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a Cambridge in Massachusetts because the Americans have not heard of inventing place names.
22:43:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well you cannot do algebraic topology until you have algebra, and topology...
22:43:46 <elliott> Wikipedia doesn't have a dab for Cambridge University.
22:44:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, aren't MIT and Harvard there?
22:44:09 <Timwi> elliott: Yeah, hence why I ask
22:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, and it was actually named after the university, not the town.
22:44:18 <elliott> I'm not sure anybody calls those Cambridge.
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22:46:49 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattanooga,_Tennessee
22:47:00 <CakeProphet> does completely fucking up the native name count as inventing a place name?
22:47:26 <elliott> CakeProphet: You must be new to the US.
22:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dear, I don't actually have any photographs of myself on my system.
22:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess I can just give them a picture of Professor Moriarty? I'm sure nobody will notice.
22:49:15 <pikhq> There's rather a *lot* of silly, repeated place names in the US.
22:49:40 <pikhq> For instance: London, Texas.
22:50:01 <oerjan> not far from paris, i assume
22:50:19 <pikhq> Several hundred miles.
22:51:02 <Timwi> To be fair, there is an Amerika in Germany.
22:51:30 <Timwi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika,_Saxony
22:51:35 <elliott> In retaliation, prepare for Germuny, Texas.
22:52:01 <CakeProphet> University of Georgia is in Rome, Georgia.
22:52:04 <pikhq> elliott: Sadly, no such thing.
22:52:10 <pikhq> There is, however, Texas German.
22:52:24 <pikhq> A nearly extinct dialect of German.
22:52:26 <Timwi> Of course, Georgia is a whole nother matter :)
22:52:39 <Timwi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Township,_Adams_County,_Pennsylvania
22:53:27 <CakeProphet> Captain Samuel Butts (1777–1814), a hero of the Creek War
22:53:34 <pikhq> And when you head out west you get a bunch of place names that are blatantly Spanish.
22:53:40 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_Georgia_(U.S._state)
22:53:54 <pikhq> e.g. San Francisco
22:54:36 <monqy> these counties are bad
22:56:00 <CakeProphet> bulloch county, bacon county, coffee county, crisp county, early county, effinham county, glascock county, liberty county, long county, peach county, quitman county,
22:56:56 <oerjan> coffee and crisp bacon
22:57:22 <CakeProphet> The racial makeup of the county was 95.16% White, 2.17% Black or African American, 0.40% Native American, 0.51% Asian, 0.18% Pacific Islander, 0.51% from other races, and 1.07% from two or more races. 1.56% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.
22:57:33 <Timwi> OK request posted: http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Common.css
22:59:26 <Timwi> I’m really tempted to create a completely new skin for Wikipedia now. :)
22:59:58 <elliott> What, to replace Vector? :-)
23:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hypersphere_coord.PNG
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23:22:01 <Gregor> CakeProphet: Dude, my hometown is whiter than that.
23:22:26 <Gregor> Since the town actually isn't.
23:23:10 <Gregor> Also the county apparently isn't either.
23:32:43 <elliott> oerjan: wait, does your trackpad not actually have scrolling capabilities?
23:34:18 <Madoka-Kaname> implicit defs in Scala are pretty much called when a (static) type error occurs...
23:35:23 <pikhq> It is operating *way* beyond design.
23:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I also distinctly remember reading about Cassini and being annoyed that it wouldn't reach Saturn for ages.
23:35:52 <oerjan> elliott: well there might be. i recall i long ago turned off some advanced settings because they kept annoying me when i triggered them accidentally
23:36:13 <elliott> oerjan: the normal thing is just to reserve the extreme right for vertical scrolling
23:36:16 <elliott> and extreme bottom for horizontal
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23:45:23 <oerjan> elliott: hm i tried setting that, and it does _not_ seem to work for the embedded scrollbars on the wiki (although a different autoscroll function which was already set does, but that one looks annoying to do precisely)
23:45:54 <oerjan> it worked for scrolling the main browser window though
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23:51:22 <Ngevd> I have been to a party
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23:53:31 <oerjan> neither have i. that Ngevd guy sure is weird.
23:59:39 <Ngevd> Trivia: everyone in Hexham is connected to elliott in some way