00:00:22 <Ngevd> It varies person to person
00:00:23 <oerjan> clearly most are clones
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00:09:02 <Madoka-Kaname> Is it good practice to make the tools used to create the package you distribute, or is just source enough in most cases?
00:09:38 <elliott> I don't understand the part before the comma.
00:11:20 <Madoka-Kaname> If you make a distribution package (for an open source program), is it good practice to include whatever you used to build that package too, or only what you need to compile and run the program?
00:12:55 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: What distribution?
00:13:02 <elliott> Most distribution packages are binaries.
00:13:06 <elliott> So the question is incoherent.
00:13:52 <Madoka-Kaname> In this case, I'm using Scala, so, package = .jar file, launcher, external libraries, etc
00:14:39 <pikhq> Each distro generally documents their best practices for packaging.
00:14:57 <pikhq> Big, big thing is do not ever include external libraries.
00:15:31 <pikhq> What, do you mean a source tarball?
00:16:00 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: Oh, distribution package.
00:16:13 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: What kind of package, then?
00:16:21 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: You should basically include whatever's in your VCS repository.
00:16:56 <elliott> 7z doesn't even do permissions, IIRC.
00:16:56 <pikhq> Tarballs are the accepted format.
00:17:07 <elliott> And nobody has the decompressor on Linux.
00:17:17 <elliott> (Everyone with WinRAR can open tar.gz, I believe.)
00:17:21 <elliott> (Definitely everyone with 7-Zip.)
00:17:33 <pikhq> tar.gz and tar.bz2 are typical, tar.xz is not that unusual (though don't offer that exclusively).
00:17:52 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: Anyway, you have a source repo, right? [This is me asking a question as if the answer will be the opposite of what I actually expect.]
00:18:05 <elliott> pikhq: I dislike bz2 for the much-increased requirements over gz.
00:18:14 <elliott> pikhq: tar.gz and tar.xz is reasonable, but really, gzip does just fine on text.
00:18:22 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: tar czf program.tar program-repo/
00:18:30 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, tar.gz and tar.xz seems utterly reasonable.
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00:18:35 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: tar czf program.tar.gz program-repo/
00:18:45 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: Then why would you include the sourec?
00:19:01 <elliott> Source tarballs should be separate; or you could just point people to the relevant git commit.
00:19:24 <Madoka-Kaname> I mean, the binary release would contain a .bat file and a shell script to launch the program, the .jar file, and libraries, etc. Would it be good practice to include the script used to generate this package in the source repo?
00:20:12 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: You should be able to wipe your hard drive and still retrieve all your project-related work from the repo.
00:20:18 <elliott> (Modulo stuff you haven't committed or pushed yet, I suppose.)
00:20:30 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: And you should of course version such scripts because they'll inevitably change.
00:20:37 <elliott> So yes, it should go in the repo. Everything should.
00:20:59 <pikhq> Everything you write should go in the repo, rather.
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00:31:36 <Gregor> Finally upgraded my laptop to Lion.
00:31:57 <Gregor> Just when I thought that it would be literally impossible for Apple to put out any worse of an OS than they already have, they have once again managed to dig just a little bit deeper.
00:33:03 <elliott> Gregor: I told you to upgrade to Snow Leopard to avoid you whining.
00:33:18 <Gregor> Oh I did upgrade to Snow Leopard.
00:33:21 <Gregor> I had to to upgrade to Lion.
00:33:37 <Gregor> I figured "how could it hurt to get properly up to date instead of just almost up to date"
00:33:39 <elliott> So why didn't you just stick there :P
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00:33:43 <Gregor> I wish I hadn't figured that.
00:34:02 * elliott thinks Lion is an improvement overall; unquestionably as far as the internals go, and about sixty percent UI-wise.
00:35:17 <Gregor> Spaces (or whatever that feature is called), which is easily the worst implementation of virtual desktops in any OS in the history of the universe, has turned into little more than a joke in Lion. Right now it seems that spaces has taken my keyboard focus. I can change spaces, but I can't, y'know, TYPE INTO ANY FUCKING WINDOW.
00:35:36 <elliott> At least not for me, at all.
00:35:47 <Gregor> Funny how for me it happened after all of ten minutes of use >_<
00:37:03 <Gregor> Where the hell is the spaces feature in this preferences app >_<
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00:38:25 <Gregor> Great, so I guess I'll go reboot to get my keyboard back. Because that makes sense.
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00:47:35 <Gregor> OK, now to find a way to change the space-switching animation's speed to something other than its default "fast enough to be nauseating and yet too slow to be useful"
00:54:44 <Gregor> Just switching screens on this is going to make me vomit X_X
00:55:09 <elliott> Gregor: Does that MacBook have a multitouch thing?
00:55:31 <elliott> Gregor: Using Lion will be much more pleasant if you use it for everything you possibly can.
00:56:23 <elliott> Gregor: (e.g. switching spaces with three-finger horizontal swipes.)
00:56:30 <elliott> Apple don't really give a shit about any other method of control :P
00:56:58 <Gregor> OK, it looks like it's a two-spot-max multitouch (two-finger scroll works, three finger doesn't seem to do anything)
00:57:17 <elliott> Gregor: So it's not multitouch :P
00:57:38 <Gregor> In the sense that two is clearly equal to one, no.
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01:22:06 <zzo38> Can you even turn off those animations?
01:23:36 <Gregor> Apple doesn't let you disable animations.
01:23:51 <Gregor> Because having something pretty to look at for a second is more important than not breaking your workflow constantly.
01:25:08 <zzo38> Are you sure there isn't some hidden settings to change these things if you know the names of the settings and can enter them at the UNIX command prompt?
01:26:38 <zzo38> Although it is possible that Apple forgot to put in those hidden settings.
01:27:31 <Gregor> There was one for 10.6 apparently. But not for 10.7.
01:27:48 <zzo38> So, they removed it?
01:29:34 <olsner> no, they added the feature of not having it
01:33:48 <Gregor> In spite of everything, olsner's answer is closer to the truth :P
01:34:25 <Gregor> As near as I can tell, they completely rewrote spaces from scratch, and somehow managed to make an even worse system (which is impressive since spaces was really awful)
01:35:23 <zzo38> Is there a command to disable the spaces system entirely? (since it is now even more really awful)
01:37:57 <zzo38> I have something like data Exp = Apply Exp Exp | Literal Literal | Case [(Pat, Exp)] ..... should I add annotations, and if so what method? One way I thought of is giving a type parameter to Exp and Pat and adding a constructor which is used for annotations, but is there better way?
01:45:16 <elliott> Gregor: TBH I think Mission Control makes Spaces basically useful
01:45:27 <elliott> Especially the handling of fullscreen apps
01:45:30 <elliott> But I'm not much of a virtual desktop user
01:46:24 <Gregor> I have to assume you typo'd "useless" there.
01:47:28 <Gregor> Regardless of anything you say, for the sake of my sanity I have to assume you typo'd "useless"
01:47:47 <Gregor> It's not so much that this is a rational conclusion, as that I refuse to accept any other conclusion.
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02:16:17 <elliott> pikhq: Look at the UK government's official reasons for insane copyright laws: "The creative industries are an important part of the UK’s economy, and they regularly report copyright infringement as a serious problem."
02:17:04 <pikhq> That... Is the stupidest reasoning I've seen.
02:23:12 <elliott> The gramophone companies are an important part of the UK's economy, and they regularly report CD sales as a serious problem.
02:29:57 <pikhq> The buggy companies are an important part of the UK's economy, and they regularly report car sales as a serious problem.
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02:35:10 <elliott> pikhq: The television companies are an important part of the UK's economy, and they regularly report time shifting as a serious problem.
02:38:38 <zzo38> Am I implementing deBruijn indexing correctly?
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02:39:04 <zzo38> assignLocal i v h = case h of { Apply x y -> Apply (assignLocal i v x) (assignLocal i v y); Case x -> Case $ assignLocalCase i v <$> x; Local x -> if x == i then v else if x > i then Local (x - 1) else Local x; _ -> h; };
02:39:10 <zzo38> assignLocalCase i v (p, h) = (p, assignLocal (i + localOffset p) v h);
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02:39:21 <zzo38> localOffset LocalP = 1; localOffset (ConstructorP _ x) = sum $ localOffset <$> x; localOffset _ = 0;
02:39:39 <Patashu> does anyone know how tynt works? For those who don't know, it's a company that offers a piece of javascript that, when you copy from a webpage using it, both tells the tynt site that it's been copied for analytics perfect and adds a Read more: then a url to the copied text that links back to the page. Is there a way to hook to copying in javascript?
02:40:31 <zzo38> Patashu: Yes, I have seen those things. Usually I disable scripting when viewing those kind of things, since I want to copy fragments all over the place instead of a single solid block of text.
02:41:01 <Patashu> yeah, I've seen how to disable it, I want to know how it can do what it does
02:41:12 <zzo38> Use the view-source command
02:41:23 <elliott> zzo38: doesn't help for obfuscated JS
02:41:41 <elliott> Register handlers for onCopy, onDrag, etc on the window Object
02:41:41 <elliott> Get a unique URL that will be used as a tracker
02:41:41 <elliott> When any of the registered event occurs
02:41:41 <elliott> Send an event to the server
02:41:42 <elliott> On firefox, create a new node with the data that has to be displayed with the content that is copied. Set selection to existing node and this new node.
02:41:45 <elliott> On IE, add extra text to the current Selection
02:41:47 <elliott> Cancel the propagation of the current event.
02:42:10 <Patashu> I have a lot to learn about JS, I didn't even know you could do that
02:42:39 <Patashu> var clip = Components.classes['@mozilla.org/widget/clipboard;[[[[1]]]]'].createInstance(Components.interfaces.nsIClipboard);
02:42:49 <zzo38> Mozilla seems incomplete, I cannot figure out how to make it get rid of events or make other changes to the DOM
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02:44:10 <zzo38> So that certain events are not passed to the DOM, or are only called when certain conditions apply (such as which mouse buttons you use or which keys are pushed)
02:47:38 <zzo38> Use gopher protocol without HTML (and also without PDF, SVG, etc) and avoid these problems.
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03:19:22 <elliott> Patashu: You should use gopher instead.
03:19:39 <Patashu> that was just some line I copy pasted
03:19:49 <Patashu> is the [[[[1]]]]] really necessary? it looks lol
03:19:58 <Patashu> it reminds me of that esolang with all the []s for pointer redirection
03:36:41 <CakeProphet> I'm going to lose my mind to craigslist and autotrader.
03:44:29 <pikhq> Wow. The US is *actually* ending military involvement in Iraq.
03:46:35 <pikhq> http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/10/20111015191922744317.html
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03:48:58 <coppro> terrorist mutant traitor news
03:49:03 <pikhq> Yes, Al Jazeera is an entirely respectable reporting organization that happens to focus on the Arab world.
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04:00:41 <elliott> pikhq: Wow! Only eight years after we won the war!
04:00:55 <pikhq> elliott: I didn't realise the UK won.
04:01:17 <elliott> pikhq: No we are all American at heart.
04:01:35 <pikhq> Ah. Very well then.
04:02:01 <pikhq> Let us consume gallons of high fructose corn syrup and eat pounds of bacon and artificial cheese food product.
04:06:21 <pikhq> I think the word you're looking for is "meme".
04:11:17 <CakeProphet> wow software engineering is a really easy class.
04:11:38 <CakeProphet> a lot of is either completely unecessary, or something that's common sense that you would do without thinking.
04:11:58 <pikhq> Well, yes, software engineering is not a well-estabilished field of engineering, at least as commonly practiced.
04:12:20 <coppro> software engineering is not a class
04:12:32 <pikhq> Really, it's only sometimes deserving of the term "craft".
04:12:38 <coppro> at least, at a university level
04:13:02 <CakeProphet> coppro: ...yes, I was referring to "introduction to software engineering"
04:13:12 <coppro> CakeProphet: also which school
04:14:37 <coppro> Polytechnic State? nice
04:17:10 <CakeProphet> it was originally a satellite campus of Georgia Tech but then became its own institution. It's almost a feeder school for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, which is located nearby.
04:17:46 <CakeProphet> but also has an okay CS degree, which is what I'm majoring in obviously.
04:17:59 <CakeProphet> (Note: all lies. I'm actually getting a culinary degree)
04:21:35 <zzo38> I find the <$ operator is very useful when using Parsec. The <* operator is also useful with Parsec; and liftM2, liftM3, etc are useful with Parsec.
04:22:36 <CakeProphet> how much has been done with non-character types and Parsec?
04:23:02 <zzo38> I don't know; but I would like to know the answer to that question, too.
04:25:57 <CakeProphet> well if you ignore the state monad underneath, Parsec essentially solves some kind of complex decision problem involving a list as input. Right?
04:27:25 <zzo38> I suppose it can do that.
04:28:31 <elliott> Stallman still uses XFree?
04:45:46 <elliott> pikhq: http://richard.stallman.usesthis.com/
04:45:52 <elliott> I guess it could have been inaccurate editing
04:46:29 <pikhq> Especially seeing as he uses gNewSense, and Ubuntu derivative.
04:49:47 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe he didn't realise the X.org transition even happened :-)
04:49:52 <elliott> "Oh, haven't got to that part of my email backlog yet."
04:50:30 <shachaf> elliott: It does have "free" in its name.
04:52:00 <CakeProphet> shachaf: uh, because I want to major in something that's directly related to programming and the theory of such.
04:52:38 <shachaf> Oh, well, maybe the "obviously".
04:52:58 * shachaf likes programming but would certainly not be sure that he wants to major in CS.
04:53:22 <monqy> i hate programming but im unwisely major in cs :'(
04:54:00 <CakeProphet> I think computer science was probably the best choice because a) it's what I like to do b) it will be a relatively good source of income.
04:54:31 <CakeProphet> my second favorite hobby being bulleted, numered, and alphabetically ordered lists.
04:56:22 <CakeProphet> shachaf: is there anything else you're good at?
04:56:46 <shachaf> Oh, I want to do everything.
04:56:58 <shachaf> I think CS is probably easier to study on one's own than a lot of things.
04:57:31 <CakeProphet> it's certainly something you can learn by doing.
05:01:36 <CakeProphet> for example, unless you work at a car shop or have a lot of money to spend on car stuff, it's more difficult to self-learn car stuff.
05:02:05 <CakeProphet> but software is (er, can be) free. And you only need the initial investment of a computer.
05:02:50 <CakeProphet> free as in "free beer" not free as in "free speech".
05:03:21 <monqy> i misread as free bear
05:03:27 <monqy> "oh cool free bear"
05:03:38 <CakeProphet> yes learning the codes can be dangerous. I have scars.
05:04:51 <CakeProphet> shachaf: though if you do learn CS and go out into industry, you probably /will/ have to program something you're not necessarily interested in.
05:05:13 <CakeProphet> so far, in my very limited experienced, it's not too bad though.
05:05:41 <CakeProphet> icky web programing stuff will be the bane of me.
05:06:53 <monqy> haha web programming
05:08:13 <CakeProphet> for example, I could imagine that making my Javascript compatible with any number of different de facto conventions as being similar to writing a polyglot. Ah, that sounds much better.
05:09:41 <CakeProphet> s/conventions/implementations(?#I suppose)/
05:11:07 <CakeProphet> shachaf: so you're "in the industry" without a degree?
05:12:18 <shachaf> I went to do a summer internship after high school before college.
05:12:34 <shachaf> It ended up being indefinitely extended.
05:12:47 <shachaf> It wasn't part of the high school.
05:13:07 <CakeProphet> I find that it's hard to find internships. many of them require obscene amounts of experience already.
05:13:26 <zzo38> Is this looks correctly to you as a transformation using De Bruijn index?
05:13:43 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/BYVT
05:13:59 <shachaf> CakeProphet: I suppose it depends on where you look.
05:14:57 <pikhq> elliott: RMS is actually pretty good about responding to email.
05:16:03 <zzo38> How can you have nineteen years of experience with something that was invented only three years ago?
05:17:27 <shachaf> What sort of weird language is that?
05:19:47 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, it is Haskell. Although I have my own datatypes and constructors for the program that this is a part of.
05:20:34 <CakeProphet> I often find it difficult to read Haskell programs without the data type definitions.
05:20:46 <CakeProphet> and the types of basic functions on those types.
05:20:54 <zzo38> It is actually a different kind of De Bruijn indexing, where a lambda expression (e) instead corresponds to (Case [(LocalP, e)])
05:21:23 <zzo38> CakeProphet: OK I will include the types
05:21:52 <CakeProphet> zzo38: er, no that's okay I'm working on something right now I doubt I'll be able to help you with anything.
05:22:20 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/FDCd
05:22:41 <CakeProphet> I was just commenting on my experience with reading Haskell programs. I also note that I don't have as much difficult determining things about OO code without the type information. Perhaps this just reflects my lack of experience with Haskell.
05:23:20 <CakeProphet> but it could also be because Haskell programs are fairly dense comparatively.
05:24:45 <CakeProphet> lol my professor just forgot how to say decrypt.
05:25:06 <zzo38> That is OK; but I included the types in case someone else knows the answer but only if types are indicated too
05:25:10 <CakeProphet> at first she said "unencrypt" and then she was like "wait... de... de-encrypt?"
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06:36:22 <zzo38> Did I implement De Bruijn indexing correctly?
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06:50:02 <CakeProphet> elliott: have you heard of gnome-session-fallback?
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07:23:58 <elliott> <CakeProphet> elliott: have you heard of gnome-session-fallback?
07:24:04 <elliott> it is the one i tried and reported on
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08:05:29 <elliott__> Gregor: So out of morbid curiosity, how long does it actually take to build Chrome?
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08:20:42 <CakeProphet> elliott__: ah, I forgot that gnome-session-fallback was what you were trying to use
08:21:20 * elliott__ thinks Xfce is the best option for anyone who doesn't want to make the plunge to a non-traditional environment.
08:21:31 <Ngevd> Do any of the Platonic solids form Eulerian graphs?
08:21:51 * elliott__ considers buying C418's new album.
08:22:13 <Ngevd> Ooh! the octohedron does!
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08:23:50 <elliott__> nooga: Exactly how maverick is the air city?
08:33:28 <CakeProphet> elliott__: so in programs like wget and apt-get, what software are they using to create things like progress bars and changing completion percentages?
08:33:51 <CakeProphet> well I guess the progress bar can just be regular out
08:34:03 <elliott__> Actually you can do a spinner with just backspace of course.
08:34:53 <CakeProphet> you could technically do the changing completion percent thing that apt-get does with backspace I guess.
08:35:41 <CakeProphet> oh "VT escape codes" == "ANSI escape codes"?
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08:40:53 <elliott__> CakeProphet: Better Ctrl+H than backspace.
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08:42:02 <elliott__> Ctrl+U. Or Ctrl+A; I forget which you'd want here.
08:42:07 <elliott__> oklopol: hi PH found the link to the gravity stuff.
08:42:28 <oklopol> but that was just two objects
08:42:39 <elliott__> oklopol: there were links to add a bunch of moons and shit at the bottom
08:42:46 <elliott__> admittedly nothing for other ships but there was orbits and shit
08:43:17 <elliott__> oklopol: yeah, that's the thing i ain't got
08:43:24 <elliott__> PH will probably be around pretty soon though
08:43:42 <CakeProphet> elliott__: I just enjoy that it's in a completely different setting from where you would normally find a backspace key.
08:43:54 <elliott__> CakeProphet: no i use my backspace key in the woods.
08:44:03 <elliott__> it lets me get in tune with nature. also: bokeh.
08:44:08 <oklopol> yeah but ph is gay i prefer to have your link
08:44:08 <CakeProphet> this should perhaps be removed and replaced with a backspace key in its more typical usage.
08:44:19 <elliott__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Backspace.jpg
08:44:20 <elliott__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Josefina_with_Bokeh.jpg
08:44:34 <elliott__> child uses backspace daily, to get in tune with nature.
08:44:46 <elliott__> oklopol: yeah but do you really want to follow a link produced by someone who isn't a vampire
08:45:20 <elliott__> oklopol: yeah ph is the vampire here
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08:53:12 <CakeProphet> that explains everything about its input, in English words.
08:53:19 <CakeProphet> and requires no network connection or anything
08:53:23 <CakeProphet> it's just an AI that can explain anything.
08:53:34 <elliott__> it's called the opposite of CakeProphet
08:53:35 <Ngevd> Wolfram Alpha is trying to become that
08:53:52 <elliott__> without the no network connceiton part.
08:54:14 <Ngevd> I think the iPod app doesn't need network
08:54:29 <elliott__> There is no way you could fit all the data W|A has onto an iPod.
08:54:51 <elliott__> (At least not in a decently-queriable form.)
08:54:59 <elliott__> But yeah, every W|A client just talks to the servers.
08:55:47 <CakeProphet> yeah no there's no way you can use it offline...
09:10:26 <CakeProphet> (I guess nautilus-actions is, in terms of generality, better)
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09:28:08 <CakeProphet> elliott__: is there any inherent benefit to using FTP over HTTP when downloading files?
09:28:58 <elliott__> Does over-the-wire compression by default and some other stuff, e.g. you'll have much better resume support, checksumming... A better choice than HTTP when available.
09:29:35 <CakeProphet> also "rsync dvd" dunno the different there.
09:29:40 <elliott__> Ah. You've never used rsync, I see.
09:30:26 <elliott__> I dunno, I don't use livecds. Debian Live?
09:30:38 <elliott__> The Ubuntu LiveCDs are obviously pretty complete themselves.
09:31:23 <elliott__> I don't think you know what you're talking about.
09:31:46 <elliott__> Oh, Tiny Core is also an option. And definitely the least weight you'll find, though probably more than you want to deal with not having.
09:32:20 <CakeProphet> this is for a shitty netbook, so lighter is better.
09:32:47 <elliott__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_netbook-oriented_Linux_distributions
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09:36:37 <CakeProphet> it would work well with a low-memory system
09:37:48 <CakeProphet> Androids application model is pretty interesting.
09:39:11 <CakeProphet> because it frequently removes apps from memory and forces the apps to deal with that.
09:39:41 <CakeProphet> ...not much different from swap space I guess.
09:40:01 <CakeProphet> oh really? I don't know much about iOS. I was comparing it to regular OSes
09:40:44 <elliott__> CakeProphet: Well, actually Lion does that too :P
09:40:54 <elliott__> (But the app has to opt in to it.)
09:41:17 <CakeProphet> makes sense. otherwise you would have compatability issues.
09:41:28 <elliott__> Compatibility issues, Apple's number one priority.
09:42:26 <elliott__> (Lion can also keep applications running even once you quit them if it think it's a good idea, and lets you turn off the open/closed indicators in the Dock altogether.)
09:42:41 <elliott__> (I'm pretty sure the plan is to replace "Quit" with "Hide" in some future release.)
09:43:01 <elliott__> That's all part of the pseudo-orthogonal persistence thing they've got going on.
09:43:06 <CakeProphet> it's a decent solution to dealing with a low memory environment. (not referring to the parenthetical stuff)
09:43:19 <elliott__> i.e., apps manually store all their state and restore it on re-open, including things like unsaved documents; and then the versioning system is layered on top of that.
09:43:22 <CakeProphet> I'm... not really sure I get the benefit of orthogonal persistence.
09:43:48 <elliott__> CakeProphet: Many, many millions of lines of code have been written to serialise and deserialise structures to disk.
09:43:59 <elliott__> This code is all completely obsolete from its conception.
09:44:46 <CakeProphet> right, but you wouldn't want every piece of memory to be persistent.
09:44:49 <elliott__> Not only are modern OSes faster and more efficient at managing when to swap to disk than programmers, the end result is simpler, reduces code complexity by a practically unimaginable degree, and avoids billions of cycles wasted on (de)serialisation.
09:44:57 <elliott__> CakeProphet: That's what generational GCs exist for.
09:45:04 <Ngevd> I think I'll make a Constantinople successor
09:45:26 <elliott__> CakeProphet: You serialise objects that survive the first few generations of garbage collection.
09:45:33 <CakeProphet> lol every dog in my neighborhood just exploded into barking and howling.
09:45:58 <elliott__> (If you want to read a whingy rant I wrote on this early last year, YOU'RE IN LUCK: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html)
09:46:01 <CakeProphet> I think the first howl was actually a wolf.
09:46:09 <elliott__> (My opinions have since refined somewhat, as has my knowledge of the subject.)
09:46:16 <elliott__> (But what I said there is essentially correct.)
09:46:21 <elliott__> (At least more correct than the status quo.)
09:46:28 <elliott__> (I've spent more time thinking about this than is healthy.)
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09:47:10 <CakeProphet> so the key to becoming incredibly knowledgable about a subject is to form strong, misguided opinions and then pursue them relentlessly until you come to better conclusions?
09:47:26 <CakeProphet> perhaps this is why I don't know everything about everything. I don't care enough.
09:47:35 <Ngevd> That's pretty much what science is all about
09:47:39 <elliott__> CakeProphet: I thought that was what you did.
09:48:00 <CakeProphet> form misguided opinions sure. but they're not strongly held.
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09:50:52 <CakeProphet> elliott__: hmmm, okay so what happens when you have some long-standing piece of memory that is not intended to be persistent, and so becomes serialized "accidentally." is this a fault of the application programmer(s) or the system programmer(s).
09:51:02 <CakeProphet> can I assume that you will instantly logread this when you come back?
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09:52:07 <CakeProphet> elliott: so you're not in stalker mode right now? :(
09:52:32 <elliott> 09:50:52: <CakeProphet> elliott__: hmmm, okay so what happens when you have some long-standing piece of memory that is not intended to be persistent, and so becomes serialized "accidentally." is this a fault of the application programmer(s) or the system programmer(s).
09:52:39 <elliott> CakeProphet: What happens when you have a purple banana?
09:52:53 <CakeProphet> elliott: I don't believe I understand how that's a relevant response... sorry
09:53:04 <elliott> CakeProphet: What long-standing pieces of memory should not be persisted?
09:53:05 <CakeProphet> purple bananas and programming are new to me.
09:53:23 <elliott> What large, long-living pieces of information do you want to be completely lost whenever somebody cuts the power? And why?
09:54:20 <CakeProphet> elliott: well, my answer would be kind of tautalogical, and I can't think of a good example. But I'm sure there's lot of OO programs that have some weird monolith things that sit around in the background with lots of memory specific to a current session that isn't intended to "run into" the next invocation of the program.
09:54:22 <Ngevd> Because you want them lost anyway
09:54:42 <elliott> CakeProphet: ok. let me know when you have a real example!
09:54:49 <CakeProphet> but I suppose most of this data would be overwritten anyways.
09:54:53 <elliott> Also, there is no "current session".
09:55:02 <elliott> In an orthogonally persisted system, there are no shut downs, no reboots, nothing.
09:55:09 <elliott> Everything is a continuous live environment.
09:55:24 <CakeProphet> elliott: right. so that means there's huge compatability issues if you tried to run an existing program in that environment.
09:55:36 <elliott> Shutting down is simply causing a persistence cycle and cutting the power; restoring restores the set of objects needed to get the scheduler going, and continues as normal.
09:55:51 <elliott> CakeProphet: Existing programs -- with an appropriate emulation layer -- simply see a system that never shuts down.
09:56:00 <elliott> Sure, things that care about the clock skipping will fail, but that's, like, ntp.
09:56:05 <elliott> CakeProphet: Everything has to handle this today. You know why?
09:56:09 <elliott> Because /hibernate exists/.
09:56:10 <CakeProphet> elliott: also that makes hard shutdowns way more problematic as that last persistence cycle may not be run.
09:56:26 <elliott> Hibernate is the dumbest, most brutal form of orthogonal persistence, and it means everyone already has to take like 90 percent of the steps.
09:56:43 <CakeProphet> really? I thought hibernate was somewhat transparent.
09:56:47 <elliott> Sessions are no longer continuous in real-time; network resources can drop in an instance for any program. It's okay, everybody handles this.
09:56:50 <elliott> CakeProphet: So is orthogonal persistence.
09:56:53 <CakeProphet> the application doesn't really have to care because /everything/ is persisted.
09:56:57 <elliott> CakeProphet: So is orthogonal persistence.
09:57:03 <elliott> You can't make cutting a network connection transparent.
09:57:09 <elliott> <CakeProphet> elliott: also that makes hard shutdowns way more problematic as that last persistence cycle may not be run.
09:57:15 <elliott> Oh wow, you might lose like TEN SECONDS of data.
09:57:26 <elliott> So much worse than the everything you lose with current systems.
09:57:51 <CakeProphet> because everything in the last persistence cycle is in a consistent state.
09:58:13 <CakeProphet> except all of those volatile chunks suddenly get lost.
09:58:35 <CakeProphet> assuming the program continues where it left off this would be problematic.
09:58:53 <elliott> You definitely want to maintain consistency, which is a tricky problem if you prune the set of objects to persist. But you can basically do it by persisting the current continuation of the process.
09:59:00 <elliott> Which you basically have to anyway.
09:59:09 <elliott> Then it's as simple as: Whatever the continuation points to.
09:59:20 <elliott> When the continuation gets re-persisted, so do all the objects it references.
09:59:38 <elliott> If it created some ephemeral objects then threw them away, they won't be persisted; just a sample of them, every few seconds.
09:59:39 <CakeProphet> so you don't resume exactly where you left off ---- aaaaah no I see.
09:59:57 <CakeProphet> you return the last consistent point in the program execution.
09:59:59 <elliott> So, yeah, you persist the loop index that will last another microsecond, but it's not that often, so who cares?
10:00:55 <CakeProphet> still depending on where it saves you may end up with some local variables that are suddenly gone.
10:01:11 <elliott> Do you know what a current continuation is?
10:01:40 <Ngevd> elliott, how are @, mcmap, mchost, and whatever else going?
10:01:57 <elliott> The low level details are irrelevant; a higher-level detail will be more conducive to understanding.
10:02:18 <elliott> The current continuation contains the entire rest of the execution; therefore it necessarily contains a reference to every object in the process that is not garbage.
10:02:18 <CakeProphet> the current continuation is essentially the current visible state of the program, right?
10:02:39 <elliott> That includes the ephemeral loop index.
10:02:58 <CakeProphet> but then the persistence cycle saves everything relevant, not based on generation?
10:03:10 <elliott> There is no special-casing.
10:03:34 <elliott> Every ten seconds or so, the persistence engine saves everything in the third generation or later.
10:03:41 <elliott> That includes the current continuations of the running processes.
10:03:43 <CakeProphet> ah okay. well yeah if you save the entire current continuation, no problem.
10:03:51 <elliott> Yes, that is called orthogonal persistence.
10:04:07 <elliott> The problem with saving things like loop indices or tables that only last for ten milliseconds is not because it uses space or anything.
10:04:11 <elliott> It's because it'd thrash your disk.
10:04:14 <CakeProphet> I thought you were implying that those local variables which are probably not third generation do not get included.
10:04:35 <elliott> No, I only mean that if you have a loop index which only lasts three seconds and there's no persistence cycle done, it'll be garbage collected and never persisted.
10:04:49 <elliott> (I'm backporting concepts slightly; @ has no concept of process.)
10:05:35 <CakeProphet> then that's fine, except for the aforementioned disk thrashing, also performance issues maybe?
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10:06:20 <elliott> What performance thrashing?
10:06:28 -!- Ngevd has joined.
10:06:35 <CakeProphet> 06:03 < elliott> The problem with saving things like loop indices or tables that only last for ten milliseconds is not because it uses space or anything.
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10:06:38 <CakeProphet> 06:04 < elliott> It's because it'd thrash your disk.
10:06:44 <elliott> Which is why you don't do that.
10:06:54 <elliott> Also, jesus christ Ngevd just came in here for like five seconds.
10:08:19 <CakeProphet> okay so you also have to save everything that's been context switched to in the past 10 seconds
10:09:06 <elliott> No, you can prioritise that.
10:09:24 <elliott> Anyway I'm sure your OS writes to disk more than you think too in general operation.
10:09:29 -!- Ngevd has joined.
10:09:59 <Ngevd> Question: how hard is it to connect a python program and a haskell program so they work together?
10:11:20 <CakeProphet> elliott: I have a little disk usage meter that tells me how often it does that.
10:12:12 <Ngevd> How can I get a rng in Haskell?
10:12:36 <Patashu> that's answered in Learn You A Haskell
10:13:07 <Patashu> isn't there an IO function in haskell to get a random seed?
10:13:14 <Patashu> and then it's non-IO after that
10:13:57 <CakeProphet> I assumed he meant an actual random number generator.
10:14:20 <elliott> getStdRandom :: (StdGen -> (a, StdGen)) -> IO a
10:14:22 <elliott> is usually more useful imo
10:14:41 <CakeProphet> elliott: okay so if not processes then what does @ have?
10:14:52 <Ngevd> Chapter 8 of LYAH confuses me
10:15:00 <CakeProphet> also do you need any help with @? :3 No I don't expect to be able to do gory system stuff effectively.
10:15:05 <elliott> CakeProphet: Stuff. And no.
10:15:33 <CakeProphet> ah yes stuff is a good model for anything.
10:17:30 <CakeProphet> also you still need the concept of a file I'd think. or at least, a store of data that isn't ever put into memory until demanded.
10:17:54 <elliott> That's called... anything.
10:18:03 <elliott> Why would anything be put into memory if it wasn't demanded?
10:18:52 <CakeProphet> I suppose. but then you also need to have a filesystem of some kind.
10:19:25 <CakeProphet> where do I put my music collection in @? :P
10:19:56 <elliott> CakeProphet: I really have to ask at this point if your first response to not being able to think of a way to do something is to declare it must be done some other way.
10:20:01 <elliott> You've done it about ten times.
10:21:30 <CakeProphet> I didn't say that it must be done some other way at all. Just that you probably want these additional concepts to allow you to refer to segments of memory-stuff between processes (or stuffs, since they're not processes)
10:22:00 <CakeProphet> and that you probably want some kind of structure to this method of sharing data.
10:22:00 <elliott> OK, but seriously, you've used argument by incredulity about ten times to declare that you'd still want a filesystem.
10:22:04 <elliott> Not once have you been correct.
10:22:55 <elliott> CakeProphet: You put your music collection in the most convenient data structure to hand.
10:23:12 <CakeProphet> elliott: I am literally just talking to you about this model... not like, suggesting that you need to a filesystem. I am indirectly wondering, how do you solve the problems that a filesystem solves in this system?
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10:24:43 <Ngevd> Is there much point upgrading ubuntu to oneiric ocelot?
10:24:50 -!- ranzz_die has changed nick to ranzz_die123.
10:24:51 <CakeProphet> how they're stored, sure. not how they're shared
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10:25:04 <elliott> CakeProphet: pre-oneiric has unity too
10:25:09 <elliott> <CakeProphet> how they're stored, sure. not how they're shared
10:25:12 <Ngevd> I'm already on Natty Narwhal
10:25:13 <elliott> what do you mean by "shared"
10:25:43 <Ngevd> How can a music player access the music?
10:25:53 <Ngevd> I do not know what CakeProphet is thinking
10:26:13 <CakeProphet> elliott: well, assuming you have more than one program running (not a process, but stuff or whatever they are), you probably want the data that they generate and manipulate to be accessible to other programs that perform a different task, perhaps even without these programs knowing that they may need to communicate with one another specifically.
10:26:39 <elliott> Ah -- they should magically communicate without intent?
10:26:53 <elliott> Yes, I would like a computer that reads my mind too. But seriously, that's about the opposite of a concrete question.
10:27:23 <CakeProphet> this is one thing a filesystem can do. you give the data names in a hierarchy and then they have names that can be referred to. the data isn't associated with any specific program.
10:27:50 <elliott> Yes, filesystems are a recursive map from strings to {filesystem | byte string}.
10:27:50 <CakeProphet> another program or a human can pass along the name.
10:27:56 <elliott> That is a fairly trivial structure.
10:27:59 <elliott> Anyone can implement that given ten minutes.
10:28:04 <elliott> It's also a bad structure for 90 percent of things.
10:28:26 <CakeProphet> okay, and how is this structure shared between programs? I'm back at my starting question. I don't think it's a difficult question to understand.
10:29:31 <elliott> It's not even a question. I mean, entirely apart from having no question mark in your elaboration of it, you're not even asking anything in particular; I can't answer a question I can't even understand. Ask something concrete and maybe you'll have better luck.
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10:31:04 <CakeProphet> I am... very surprised that you can't answer that question.
10:31:26 <CakeProphet> and am currently at a lose on how to phrase it more conretely.
10:31:55 <elliott> Go back to the music collection thing. That was a coherent question.
10:32:11 <oklopol> you can't collect music, music needs to run free
10:33:32 <CakeProphet> well, okay. you have a music collection. it exists as track structures or whatever. typically speaking when you collect music you want this data to exist indepently of any one program (or, rather, most of the programs that use it) I am wondering, how does an arbitrary program get access to this data.
10:34:21 <CakeProphet> which, brings up issues of security, "what is a program?", etc. I really don't know enough about this system to ask questions as concretely as you most likely want. I was kind of hoping you would just explain how that facet of it works.
10:34:28 <elliott> By being passed a reference to it.
10:34:33 <elliott> Like everything a program needs.
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10:35:44 <CakeProphet> elliott: that would have totally worked as an answer to "how do programs share data?"
10:35:55 <elliott> I don't think you ever asked that.
10:36:54 <CakeProphet> I think I'm done now. you win. I won't be bothering you anymore.
10:37:12 <elliott> Yess, finally I have won this battle that I was never having
10:37:32 <elliott> Consider maybe dropping the battle rhetoric for once and that instead maybe you might have been unclear.
10:37:42 <CakeProphet> no not a battle. it seems as though you are being intentionally difficult so that I'll stop asking you all these questions.
10:37:58 <CakeProphet> I, have not, at any point, tried to argue anything.
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10:38:20 <Ngevd> While I had my breakfast, a thought occured
10:38:38 <Ngevd> Imagine a probably fictional programming language called Colorado
10:38:43 <elliott> CakeProphet: Either I'm being intentionally difficult, or you just won't challenge your preconceptions; among them that your questions are clear.
10:38:48 <Ngevd> The name isn't important, but anyway
10:39:13 <Ngevd> Now, Colorado has two compilers, Denver and Aspen
10:39:35 <Ngevd> Somebody writes a text editor in Colorado
10:40:02 <Ngevd> When compiled by Denver, it's 2 KB
10:40:10 <Ngevd> When compiled by Aspen, it's 3 KB
10:40:34 <Ngevd> But the Aspen-compiled version runs quicker
10:40:37 <CakeProphet> elliott: I've challenged plenty of preconceptions throughout the course of this conversation. I'll give you one: it doesn't make sense to have all data orthogonally persistent.
10:40:42 <Ngevd> Which is the better compiler?
10:41:28 <Ngevd> Okay, now somebody else writes a different program
10:41:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, CakeProphet just thinks he's being revolutionary by bringing up things that were solved a few decades ago and then blaming his confusing questions on me.
10:41:33 <Ngevd> Say, an image viewer
10:41:41 <CakeProphet> I am really just trying to ask questions, but apparently am not being concrete enough. probably because I don't know anything about it.
10:41:50 <CakeProphet> also I'm trying to be revolutionary (....?)
10:42:00 <Ngevd> The version of this compiled by Denver runs quicker than the version compiled by Aspen
10:42:34 <Ngevd> Is there much point for a Colorado programmer to try both compilers for every program he/she writes?
10:42:46 <elliott> No. (Are these questions meant to be difficult?)
10:43:06 <Ngevd> They're meant to be ones I don't know the answer to
10:43:14 <elliott> If it doesn't go too slowly, who cares?
10:44:38 <CakeProphet> elliott: I would like to continue, but it appears that our conversations tend to break down easily.
10:44:48 <CakeProphet> because I would like to know more about this system.
10:45:37 <CakeProphet> elliott: how would a human pass a reference to a program.
10:46:28 <elliott> Probably automatically in this case. But the UI is not one of the most fleshed-out parts of @. (OK, it has had a lot of thinking done to it, but it's mostly in disparate fragments right now.)
10:46:31 <elliott> It's the object-capability model, anyway.
10:47:24 <CakeProphet> elliott: I apologize for phrasing my questions in ways that I'm accustomed to thinking about them. it's not intended to be argumentative.
10:48:18 <CakeProphet> I was attempting to resolve some unresolved misunderstandings. nevermind. no need, I guess?
10:50:33 <CakeProphet> so do you forsee it making sense to interact with this system via a terminal with line-based commands, perhaps?
10:51:59 <elliott> The @ UI is really not something I can make even vaguely concrete statements about. But it is likely to be more linguistic than WIMP, and I have little interest in supporting the lower-resolution (some only supporting a limited resolution of fixed-width glyphs, often erroneously called "text" modes) graphics modes.
10:52:16 <CakeProphet> I do see how you could liberate the dependence on a filesystem by having long-running programs that manage specific kinds of data for you.
10:52:50 <CakeProphet> just sort of existing, forever, to be invoked.
10:52:51 <elliott> There's no real program involved in maintaining a set of trakcs.
10:53:07 <elliott> But a set of course contains code in some sense, since you can perform operations on a set.
10:53:46 <CakeProphet> ah so these structures you refer to are themselves programs, and not merely inactive data. There is no distinction here.
10:55:10 <elliott> Weeeell, I think words like active vs. inactive are way too emotionally charged to be useful for much.
10:55:19 <elliott> In this case, it's just... a set.
10:55:23 <CakeProphet> I.. don't think of them as such, but okay.
10:56:09 <elliott> It's hard to define "active".
10:56:20 <CakeProphet> okay perhaps a better question. How do you define a structure?
10:56:47 <elliott> An object; entity; value; call it what you will. Imagine a value in <favourite programming language>.
10:57:17 <CakeProphet> but these entities are universally accepted by any program, so there is some sort of concrete implementation involved.
10:57:40 <elliott> Yes, the @ system is based on a single object model.
10:58:12 <CakeProphet> s/implementation/representation/ so yeah that answers that.
10:58:30 <shachaf> My favorite programming language has no values, you insensitive clod!
10:58:47 <elliott> CakeProphet: Just imagine a single language runtime underpinning the whole system; that's the easiest way to understand it.
10:58:51 <elliott> Not entirely accurate, but close.
10:59:04 <elliott> (Smalltalk is a good starting point.)
10:59:26 <CakeProphet> so would you say it's... object-oriented? minus the connotations.
10:59:40 <elliott> What does it mean minus the connotations? Sincere question.
10:59:56 <CakeProphet> as in like... object-oriented but with a sensible model.
11:00:14 <Ngevd> If Smalltalk is a good starting point, then it is VERY object-oriented
11:00:26 <elliott> CakeProphet: Probably not in any way you're thinking of, no.
11:00:32 <elliott> But maybe also a bit of yes. But no. But yes.
11:00:39 <elliott> It is primarily functional.
11:00:45 <elliott> I said Smalltalk was a good starting point.
11:00:49 <elliott> Unix etc. are just that much further off.
11:00:57 <CakeProphet> yes these questions are all an attempt to get more details out of what you mean by that. :P
11:01:07 <Ngevd> Object-oriented Haskell! :P
11:01:22 <CakeProphet> I do like the idea of all data being represented as code-stuffs.
11:01:54 <CakeProphet> maybe with some primitive notion of data underneath.
11:02:20 <elliott> Church encoding doesn't buy you much.
11:02:31 <CakeProphet> right I don't mean strictly Church encoding.
11:02:42 <elliott> The fold-based representation isn't particularly desirable, and anyway it's literally isomorphic to just using constructor bits as God intended and separating data out properly.
11:02:51 <Ngevd> If I am one of the few people who like Unity, should I upgrade Ubuntu?
11:02:58 <CakeProphet> but you have a set and the set is represented by the code that controls it.
11:03:14 <elliott> CakeProphet: What control?
11:03:27 <elliott> Sets are just set; abstract objects with a defined set of operations.
11:03:33 <shachaf> "If I am one of the few people who like Unity, should I _?" "No."; "If _, should I upgrade Ubuntu?" "No."
11:05:05 <CakeProphet> okay so internally you're passing around something akin to Haskell constructors or C structs, with associated operations?
11:05:13 <Ngevd> Wow, conversation killer
11:05:29 <elliott> CakeProphet: The low-level details are unlikely to aid in understanding here; they're essentially interchangable.
11:05:44 <elliott> The operators wouldn't be passed around with the data itself; that's simply wasteful.
11:06:01 <Ngevd> This is a tad annoyin
11:06:06 <elliott> If you have two sets, you don't want to pass the set operations twice.
11:06:28 <CakeProphet> elliott: well right. I didn't really mean that you pass around the operations.
11:07:29 <CakeProphet> in much the same way that you wouldn't actually pass the data, merely references.
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11:10:28 <CakeProphet> okay so regarding the music tracks and not having a daemon program to manage them. How do you keep a music collection from being garbage collected?
11:11:10 <elliott> By holding a reference to it.
11:11:33 <elliott> Probably in whatever roughly constitutes the system's idea of you.
11:12:07 <CakeProphet> okay, so there will never be a point where no program references the music, unless you want it to go away.
11:13:41 <elliott> It's more data than program here.
11:15:26 <elliott> It's data holding the references.
11:15:45 <CakeProphet> okay, but then said data is then being referenced by a program, right?
11:16:40 <CakeProphet> by the hands of the mighty garbage collector.
11:17:32 <elliott> There is no concept of program.
11:19:36 <CakeProphet> what do you write for @ that makes things happen? for want of better terminology.
11:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, it doesn't divide code into little packages called 'programs'.
11:21:45 <CakeProphet> or maybe my confusion is such a permanent force of nature that it's simply taken for granted at this point.
11:22:08 <Ngevd> So it's like... one giant meta-program?
11:23:14 <CakeProphet> I assume it just generalized code to data, and so the structure of the data somewhat determines what is executed.
11:26:02 <CakeProphet> sure, but the idea is completely foreign to me, and little information about it has been given.
11:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> On a typical modern OS, you have executable files, and these are what most of us mean by 'program'.
11:26:19 <CakeProphet> well I meant it in a more abstract sense. but yes, that's how such a thing is represented.
11:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> In @, code doesn't exist in files, so there's no subdivision imposed.
11:27:25 <CakeProphet> but you would still write..... programs right? bits of code, I guess.
11:28:32 <CakeProphet> and the subdivision could easily exist if you wanted it to, if you subdivided programs into blocks of memory.
11:28:55 <CakeProphet> but, I guess you don't want that subdivision? you have a different model?
11:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> There *is* no subdivision, unless you explicitly create one.
11:32:21 <elliott> It's actually a chocolate bar.
11:32:28 <CakeProphet> it's orthogonal persistence and an object model.
11:32:48 <elliott> Unix isn't an operating system; it's just a task switcher and a hierarchical store.
11:35:08 <CakeProphet> unix does provide an abstraction for subdividing segments of code from one another though. i.e. there are processes, and executable files. I assume to have any kind of semblance of order you would need a system that does something like that (but NOT the same thing. I am trying to challenge my preconceived notions here)
11:35:28 <elliott> Yes, we all need arbitrary distinctions to stay sane.
11:35:42 <elliott> It is inconceivable that code could be well-contained enough that a single system could interoperate as a whole.
11:35:59 <elliott> We demand impenetrable barriers that require obtuse duplicate mechanisms (IPC, anyone?) to work around.
11:36:13 <CakeProphet> no it's completely conceivable, you just haven't told me what that system is yet.
11:36:41 <elliott> "System" refers to @ there.
11:36:56 <CakeProphet> as far as I know @ is just a monolith with no way to place your own code into that system.
11:37:25 <elliott> You execute code. That's what users do.
11:37:26 <CakeProphet> there's just this ephemeral thing called @ and can somehow interoperate as a whole but that's all I know.
11:38:00 <elliott> Yes, this is the state known as "not knowing @".
11:38:39 <CakeProphet> can I somehow learn about @ without requiring extensive knowledge of it already to ask the right questions?
11:39:31 <elliott> Yes: Ask questions without attaching your presumptions of the answers to them, and they'll be much easier to answer.
11:39:46 <Ngevd> How can one develop programs using @?
11:40:11 <Ngevd> Or the equivalent thereof
11:40:17 <elliott> CakeProphet: I see you're uninterested in learning.
11:40:45 <Ngevd> What features will @ have that an end-user would like to know about?
11:41:40 <CakeProphet> elliott: uninterested in having my questions dismissed because they're not phrased in the language of a system I know nothing about.
11:42:03 <CakeProphet> elliott: interested in learning, yes. of course.
11:42:17 <elliott> Ngevd: One could compose an obsolete string type, I suppose, sure. Not sure why you would. Image editing I don't have any personal plans to write but it would be perfectly possible and more natural than most such systems. But really, those are all applications, so to speak; @ is very much document-centric.
11:42:48 <Ngevd> How will documents be created then?
11:42:51 <Ngevd> And in what format?
11:43:22 <Ngevd> What sort of tools will be available for document creation?
11:43:28 <elliott> But really, my focus is not on what the user-facing end is at this point. I'm not going to waste my time thinking about something that's many years off.
11:43:43 <elliott> I cannot just design this mythical perfect system with a bunch of applications and expect it to come true; there are hard problems to be solved at the lower layers.
11:44:51 <CakeProphet> elliott: is subdividing and controlling units of code a problem that as been solved or something that you don't even intend to consider a problem?
11:45:07 <Ngevd> Or somewhere inbetween?
11:45:13 <elliott> Module systems are a well-researched field.
11:46:42 <Phantom_Hoover> So there /is/ no format: after all, formats only exist because we need to serialise the in-memory representation of a document onto a disk.
11:47:53 <CakeProphet> I am mostly confused about issues of multitasking and control flow. How data is represented and controlled makes sense now, for the most part.
11:48:32 <elliott> 76% [14 libstdc++6-4.3-dev 22389/1420kB 1%] 2073kB/s 3s
11:48:44 <elliott> (Unfortunately that's my server getting dem speeds.)
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13:14:46 <oklopol> lk uskoko itsenne viisaampia valheita
13:15:20 <oklopol> you know elliott you are a real person
13:16:13 <oklopol> i know you like to think that but you're just another human
13:16:29 <oerjan> anti-solipsism would be weird
13:16:42 <oklopol> i think we've discussed that here
13:16:57 <oerjan> well, we've discussed solipsi... right
13:17:21 <oerjan> rejoice! only you exist!
13:17:35 <oerjan> that annoying neighbor is just an illusion!
13:17:56 <oerjan> sadly, an annoyingly persistent one.
13:18:53 <elliott> I still can't figure out if they'd convince others that they didn't exist or that only they existed.
13:19:12 <oerjan> elliott: probably there'd be some terrible schism
13:19:46 <oerjan> "Only I exist!" "No, only _you_ exist!" wait, what.
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13:20:20 <oklopol> the thought of there being and afterlife (more like betweenlife) where you get scored and use your points to buy your next life is so cool i have started to somewhat believe that
13:21:02 <elliott> do you like distribute stats
13:21:11 <oerjan> oklopol: that sounds like my worst nightmare.
13:21:22 <oklopol> i suppose you need a shitload of points to buy memories of your previous lives
13:21:39 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah have fun as a cockroach
13:21:54 <oklopol> or was that what you meant
13:22:01 <elliott> oerjan: no that sounds great i'd be like ok let's try being an idiot this time (that is what happened this time around)
13:22:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix
13:22:35 <oerjan> oklopol: well it's clearly time for the cockroaches to RULE
13:22:52 <elliott> Utegate – A June 2009 political incident around the lending of a utility vehicle ("ute") to Australian Labor Prime Minister Kevin Rudd by car dealer John Grant, and subsequent allegations of improper favorable treatment of Grant by the Treasury department.[74]
13:23:51 <Ngevd> Ah, good old K-Rudd
13:26:42 <oklopol> that's why people can't decide whether it's about environment or genetics, it's about *soul* genetics and *soul* environment from your past lives (yeah, there's sex in betweenlife. a fuckload of it.)
13:26:47 <elliott> Fajitagate – In November 2002, three off-duty San Francisco police officers allegedly assaulted two civilians over a bag of steak fajitas (which were mistaken as drugs), leading to the retirement of the chief of police and the firing of his successor.[53]
13:27:15 <elliott> Sexy Photo Gate – The 2008 scandal in Hong Kong concerning illegal distribution over the Internet of intimate and private photographs of actor/singer Edison Chen with various notable celebrities, destroying the showbiz careers of all those involved.[27]
13:27:24 <elliott> THAT'S JUST TWO WORDS PLUS "GATE" THEY AREN'T EVEN MUSHED TOGETHER
13:28:36 <oklopol> maybe someone should investigate this gate conspiracy. of course we all know the name of the scandal that would lead to.
13:30:01 <elliott> investigate is definitely better it is less obvious
13:30:10 <oklopol> that's why i was going for it
13:31:07 <elliott> is what it looked like here
13:31:41 <elliott> so hey oklopol how is your ... theses ... doings
13:32:11 <oerjan> he's dropped it, zzo38 has convinced him to switch to astrology
13:32:29 <oklopol> i haven't even started my phd yet :( but planning to start after the exams next week, i think i know my topic now at least
13:33:26 <oklopol> it's on the role of saturn in horoscopes. it's being done completely wrong nowadays.
13:33:28 <oerjan> <oklopol> [...] (yeah, there's sex in betweenlife. a fuckload of it.) <-- i am starting to warm to this idea
13:33:58 <oklopol> i should probably write a book about it
13:34:23 <Ngevd> oerjan, really? That line turned me off the idea a lot
13:34:29 <oerjan> oklopol: yeah a book about ring theory
13:35:24 <oklopol> Ngevd: don't worry, people will handle your vagina much more gently in the betweenlife
13:35:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dear, oklopol met Ngevd. I hope they never shake hands.
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13:36:13 <elliott> oklopol: Ngevd is taneb hth
13:36:31 <oerjan> * Phantom_Hoover eats it. <-- BUT BUT how can you then use it in a plot to get the _real_ pope hat?
13:36:33 <oklopol> oerjan: hehe, can you come up with an astrology version of "cantor type subshifts in the besicovitch and weyl topologies"
13:36:53 <oklopol> elliott: i had a hunch that might be it
13:38:17 <oerjan> oklopol: not on the spot, no
13:39:11 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: what was that a yes to, taneb?
13:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> No, to Cantor type subshifts in the Besicovitch and Weyl topologies.
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13:46:27 <oklopol> so you told me oerjan *can* come up with one?
13:47:54 <Ngevd> When did I say yes?
13:48:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You have been saying 'yes' your whole life; you have yet to realise.
13:48:48 <oklopol> Ngevd: you just misparsed my inparsible sentence.
13:49:10 <oklopol> also, maybe that's why you don't like sex
13:49:42 <oklopol> maybe i should stop picking on you and use elliott instead, he deserves it more
13:49:51 <oklopol> elliott: fuck you although i do kind of like you as a person
13:50:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, what about elliott's eviller triplet, Facekicker McHird?
13:51:23 <oklopol> well i would certainly fuck him him too if he came here.
13:52:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What none of you realise is that I... am..... the Facekicker.........
13:52:17 <elliott> I just adopted the other Elliott's identity.
13:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, my theory is that Facekicker is future you sent back in time with neutrinos.
13:52:54 <elliott> oklopol: oh yeah, are you gonna ragequit reality when it turns out ftl is possible
13:52:58 <oklopol> i wish i had a brother who is the future.
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13:53:47 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i have no problem with whole futures being sent back, just objects from the future
13:53:53 <oklopol> well at least not a priori
13:54:04 <oklopol> come to think of it i suppose that's just as bad
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13:54:17 <elliott> oklopol: you heard the neutrino thing right
13:54:29 <elliott> come on, i want some oklopol time travel rage
13:54:40 <oklopol> i called my dad and told him his crazy physicist friend was right all along
13:55:06 <Ngevd> Is the sine of an angle unitless?
13:55:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw are there any updates on that neutrino thing
13:55:43 <oklopol> elliott: sorry, i'm reserving my rage for more concrete things nowadays, trying to steer clear of religion and time travel
13:56:18 <oklopol> unless you like to think of a degree as a unit
13:56:36 <Ngevd> I count the radian as a unit of angle
13:56:46 <elliott> Ngevd: radians are not a unit
13:57:15 <oklopol> right, just like pointers should be thought of as just integers you can add and multiply with each other
13:57:17 <Ngevd> I did not know that
13:57:40 <elliott> oklopol: i realise you're being sarcastic but how are radians a unit
13:57:46 <oklopol> but yeah they aren't a unit in the physical sense
13:57:46 <Ngevd> But is the sine of a right angle the same no matter how you measure the right angle?
13:58:49 <elliott> no, if you use a metric ruler it's 0.9 off
13:58:52 <oklopol> elliott: not in the physical sense, but you should really think of the radians as points on an isomorphic copy of R/2*pi*Z, not as regular reals.
13:59:56 <oerjan> elliott: no updates but a constant stream of people insulting the scientists' intelligence by claiming the error is something stupidly obvious to anyone with a physics degree, see http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/lc0vv/fasterthanlight_neutrino_puzzle_claimed_solved_by/?limit=500
14:00:11 <elliott> oerjan: you mean like ais? :D
14:00:50 <oerjan> everyone who thinks they haven't _properly considered the effects of relativity_...
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14:01:47 <oklopol> Ngevd: usually the sine is defined using radians, the degree circle thingie should be thought of as the constant 2pi/360 and radians shouldn't be given a unit, although you might wanna put (rad) after your number to avoid confusion
14:02:07 <elliott> oklopol: so hey remember the Cube
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14:02:12 <Ngevd> I was just trying to work out which one python used
14:02:13 <oklopol> and by degree circle thingie i mean that funny little circle hovering in the air for fun
14:02:21 <Ngevd> Turns out it's radios
14:02:23 <elliott> to link oklopol to the thing
14:03:13 <oerjan> Ngevd: i'd say sines are unitless even if you don't consider the angles to be
14:03:19 <oklopol> it's always radians, since all the math computer people use without understanding them when writing libraries works in radians, so you'd have to convert back and forth otherwise
14:03:29 <elliott> oklopol: remember the cube
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14:03:42 <Ngevd> Brilliant, that's that sorted
14:03:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: link oklopol to the gravity thing, he saw it but didn't see the multi-planet options
14:03:59 <oklopol> all them math people use without understanding them. so i suppose math is the plural and maths is the singular
14:04:18 <elliott> oklopol: i'm bringing that shit back
14:04:22 <elliott> also yeah there's the gravity link
14:04:34 <oklopol> fuck you elliott, i click whatever i want
14:05:54 <oklopol> elliott: i put two planets in there and hit the sun after two tounds
14:06:44 <oklopol> oh i'm congratulating myself like an asshole on meth for being right earlier
14:06:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I suggest anyone who says their mind is blown after learning anything be shot on sight.
14:07:22 <elliott> oklopol: how were you right
14:07:50 <oklopol> elliott: how are orbits stable if i keep hitting the planets & sun?
14:08:00 <elliott> oklopol: because the planets and sun are tiny and your ship is fucking huge in this?
14:08:17 <elliott> it's not my fault you can't establish an orbit
14:08:23 <elliott> i think Phantom_Hoover is quite good at it
14:08:52 <oklopol> i'm not saying i can't establish an orbit, i'm saying orbits don't seem to be very stable
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14:09:03 <elliott> how can you say that if you haven't established one
14:09:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you've done stable orbits with it right
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14:09:56 <oklopol> by "orbits aren't stable" i don't actually mean a stable orbit isn't stable. i mean if you put shit in the simulator, they do not form nice orbits
14:10:10 <elliott> does that happen in real life
14:10:35 <elliott> i mean you did basically start off saying that two-dee newtonian gravity wouldn't work well at all but it seems to be as working as well as these things work :P
14:10:49 <oklopol> i don't care about real life, but yes, it's possible 3d works just as bad, i haven't tried.
14:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, incidentally, do you know of any undecidable/turing-equivalent problems in graph theory?
14:11:16 <oklopol> well rewriting problems ofv
14:12:13 <oklopol> elliott: what do you mean seems to work as well as these things work? i don't care about realism, i care about getting interesting orbits
14:12:34 <elliott> oklopol: what is your standard for interesting orbits if nothing that exists
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14:12:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: just you (isup.me)
14:13:48 <oklopol> elliott: that things often eventually start going around each other in stable ellipsoids from a random initial config?
14:15:10 <oklopol> yeah maybe, i suppose with a huge amount of objects this would be nice enough
14:15:38 <oklopol> if you have a big thing and a small thing, they will usually be pretty stable at least
14:15:53 <oklopol> if you have multiple big things, they start a fight
14:16:16 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i'm looking at that right now, one of the four starts flew off and hit my ship
14:16:28 <oklopol> after i pressed a key for like a millisecond
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14:17:17 <oklopol> but yeah i dunno how this would work if you have enough objects that you can afford most of them hitting each other
14:18:19 <oklopol> hehe, nice spaghetti these guys are drawing
14:19:18 <elliott> what if you had a billion objects......
14:19:39 <oklopol> anyway i think i'm sticking with my idea of having a concept of an orbit in the actual physics. if only because i don't want to use existing ones because this universe kind of sucks ass.
14:22:33 <oklopol> really i want something like minecraft with polygons and space travel
14:22:55 <oklopol> and prolly 2d because 3d just feels so old-fashioned and dull
14:24:12 <oklopol> hexagons might work nicely tho as a primitive shape
14:26:44 <oklopol> but maybe that doesn't really integrate into the whole gluing shit together optimization
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15:52:56 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:55:12 -!- Timwi has joined.
15:55:53 <Timwi> ... and hello again
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16:28:38 <zzo38> If you add up all positive integers will you get -1/12 as the answer?
16:29:02 <Timwi> ... unless you round it
16:29:12 <elliott> Zeta regularisation is the best thing.
16:31:21 <zzo38> Can you explain how? I do not understand how. I can understand how you can get -1/3 if you add $2^0+2^2+2^4+2^6+2^8+2^10+2^12$ and so on; I have done this calculation myself in various ways and have always gotten the answer -1/3 if you add 2 to power of even natural numbers infinite series.
16:32:20 <Timwi> wtf, I thought it was a joke
16:32:22 <zzo38> (One way is to write the answer in binary notation, from which it can easily be seen that $3x+1=0$ if $x$ is the answer)
16:32:31 <elliott> zzo38: Z(s) = sum n=1 to inf n^-s
16:32:38 <elliott> so if you can make a sum look like the RHS, you can calculate it with the LHS :-)
16:32:46 <elliott> That's actually used seriously in some part of string theory, IIRC.
16:32:52 <elliott> It certainly gives very pretty results.
16:33:32 <elliott> also, 1 + 1 + 1 + ... = -1/2 :-)
16:34:07 <elliott> I like the infinite products too: prod n=1 to inf, n = sqrt 2pi.
16:45:07 <zzo38> I will continue to make the Super ASCII MZX Town (Part II) game. You can tell me ideas if you want to! Like Part I, it is full CP437, it has BIG_MONSTER, and you need all the purple keys. But this one has magic keycards; it has the Star Trek convention; MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER ask you for the book, the hat, the clock, and a copy of this game on VHS; there is a secret basement in the library; etc
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16:49:39 <zzo38> Like the Part I, it has a lot of scrolls, and finite resources (money, ammunition, health, keys, multimeter, etc)
16:53:09 <zzo38> On the shelf in the library is an optical disc, it is a CD on one side and a DVD on the other side. It contains a game titled "Sub EBCDIC ZZT Village", which claims to be similar to the present game, and contains a reference to an isomorphic but non-existent game. In addition, the game on that disc is licensed under the GNU GPL version 42.
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16:53:47 <zzo38> (The entire Super ASCII MZX Town series is public domain.)
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16:56:14 <zzo38> Is there such things as optical discs that are a CD on one side and a DVD on the other side?
16:56:43 <Ngevd> I don't see why not
16:56:50 <Ngevd> As in, top side and bottom side?
16:56:57 <Ngevd> Left side and right side would be tricky
16:57:10 <zzo38> Ngevd: Yes I mean top side and bottom side
16:57:20 <Ngevd> Yeah, that's a thing
16:58:22 <Timwi> Here on a CD is “left” anyway :)
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17:14:45 <Timwi> Any admins here now?
17:16:12 <elliott> I don't think so; ais523 reads all wiki edits, though
17:31:26 <Gregor> OK, I'll admit that screen sharing's change from 10.5/6 -> 10.7 is a huge improvement. It's very nearly as useful as Xvnc now.
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17:37:33 <zzo38> I want to make the spells in Icosahedral RPG to form a category.
17:38:18 <zzo38> (As in, mathematical category theory)
17:38:27 <Ngevd> I have no idea what that would involve
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17:40:03 <Timwi> I have no idea what any of this is about
17:48:11 <elliott> Gregor: Do you have a tool to merge two line-based pipes into another
17:48:19 <elliott> So that no lines end up intersecting awfully
17:49:48 <Timwi> would be trivial to write in C#
17:49:59 <elliott> would be trivial to write in any language, just a pain
17:50:09 <Timwi> would be fun and painless to write in C# ;-)
17:50:13 <elliott> I doubt C#'s support for select() is very good
17:50:17 <elliott> which would be the pertinent thing to use here
17:51:03 <Timwi> No idea what select() does, but sounds like a hack. I’d just run two processes and read lines from their stdout in two separate threads
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17:51:39 <elliott> threading-based IO has been dead for the last decade or so
17:51:47 <elliott> at least on platforms anyone actually uses for real serving.
17:52:08 <Timwi> “threading-based IO”?
17:52:18 <elliott> aka, "I’d just run two processes and read lines from their stdout in two separate threads"
17:52:20 <Timwi> There’s nothing special about reading from the STDOUT of a process... nothing to do with threads
17:52:38 <Timwi> I don’t see what relevance the threads are to the I/O
17:52:42 <elliott> two processes ~ two thread
17:54:32 <elliott> Timwi: but anyway, there's no hack about blocking until one of the given file descriptors has events available
17:54:36 <elliott> that's simple event notification
17:56:49 <Timwi> And that is exactly what my solution does
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17:57:22 <Ngevd> Yeah, my IRC client isn't working
17:57:24 <elliott> Well, there were no processes meant to be involved anyway
17:57:31 <elliott> it just needs to take the names of two pipes and output to stdout
17:57:35 <elliott> (which can then be redirected to another pipe)
17:57:38 <Timwi> I see. Then I don’t know what a line pipe is :)
17:57:56 <elliott> I just want to merge two http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Named_pipe s on a line-based level
17:58:24 <Timwi> UNTESTED: http://pastebin.info/?dl=2337
17:58:44 <Timwi> (assumes the existence of a “commandLines” list/array/enumerable)
17:59:42 <elliott> Timwi: I think there's a race condition there
18:00:37 <Ngevd> Uniquode is going to be interesting when it gets to...
18:01:10 <Ngevd> I was going to say "arrows"
18:01:34 <Timwi> There’s almost nothing about Unicode that is /not/ interesting to some degree :)
18:01:57 <Timwi> Argh :) Why is everyone speaking in code today? :)
18:02:07 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Uniquode
18:02:45 <Ngevd> Uniquode ≈ UniCode
18:03:07 <Ngevd> What's in that article has already been completely destroyed
18:03:19 <Ngevd> And elliott had the idea first
18:03:39 <Ngevd> http://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode
18:03:40 <Timwi> Well it’s kind of ironic you should mention Uniquode then, because I’m currently trying to write 99 bottles in Sclipting
18:04:26 <Ngevd> That chinese golf one?
18:04:43 <Timwi> I just added a reverse for loop instruction for this :)
18:07:34 <shachaf> elliott: Nothing wrong with thread-based I/O, FSVO "thread"!
18:07:47 <elliott> shachaf: Pretty sure .NET's threads are heavyweight.
18:07:59 <shachaf> Doesn't Windows have lightweight "fibres" of some sort?
18:08:01 <Timwi> Yeah, and there’s a whole whooping two of them
18:08:02 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:08:29 <shachaf> Oh, it's not for .NET, though, maybe?
18:08:37 <Taneb> Anyway, we should form a UNICODE BASED ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE CONSORTIUM!
18:08:58 <shachaf> Why would you use .NET when you can use Ruby for everything?!
18:09:14 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:09:21 <shachaf> It's the language of the future.
18:10:05 <elliott> That... returns for each non-zero byte pointed to by blah blah advancing?
18:10:09 <Timwi> All of my esolangs so far use Unicode characters
18:10:23 <shachaf> elliott: gcc emits it in some cases.
18:10:29 <Timwi> I had a vague idea for one that doesn’t, but haven’t thought it through yet
18:10:43 <elliott> Timwi: Technically, almost every esolang released uses Unicode characters.
18:10:47 <shachaf> It helps with AMD's implementation of branch prediction in some CPU. Or something.
18:11:05 <Timwi> elliott: I thought about how to phrase it, but decided it should be clear what I meant :-p
18:11:12 <shachaf> elliott: There's also rep nop.
18:11:18 <elliott> shachaf: Does it actually repeat the return, though?
18:11:36 <Taneb> By Unicode-based, in this context, I was referring to the entire of Unicode
18:11:45 <Taneb> Possibly minus non-printing characters
18:11:46 <fizzie> It should work as a multi-level out-of-function thing. :/
18:13:16 <fizzie> Yes, exactly like that. (Would "RBUS"4( ... 4kR work?)
18:15:20 <zzo38> Do you like Part I or Part II (or even Part III or Part IV) of Super ASCII MZX Town?
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18:18:58 <Taneb> Thoughts on UBEPLC?
18:19:21 <Taneb> UNICODE BASED ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE CONSORTIUM
18:19:53 <Taneb> Because a unicode based esoteric programming language is too much for one person to make
18:20:16 <zzo38> It is wiki so you can multiple people can write it, possibly on the talk page too.
18:21:00 <Taneb> I mean, there's at least two esoteric programming language work in progresses that claim to use all of unicode
18:21:26 <zzo38> Including control characters and private use characters?
18:22:37 <Taneb> UBEPLC is a motion to merge efforts to create an actual language
18:23:08 <zzo38> O, OK. If that is the case, then yes you should do that.
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18:25:00 <zzo38> I think there is esolang with Klingon writing, but is there a program that allows it to use Klingon scripts instead of using the Latin alphabet to write them?
18:31:43 <zzo38> How does anonymous macros work? And retroactive self-modification? What does missionary commands mean?
18:33:32 <fizzie> I don't think var'aq can be written in the Klingon script, possibly because it didn't make it to Unicode and the current private-use area based thing is so arbitrary.
18:34:19 <Timwi> You could use a font that has Klingon characters in the Latin range though
18:34:21 <zzo38> Then use an encoding other than Unicode.
18:34:54 <Taneb> Anonymous macros don't work, retroactive self-modification is a bit like ais523's Feather, and actually does work
18:35:19 <Taneb> A missionary command is a command that turns something into a Church encoding of it
18:37:33 <zzo38> Maybe you can use a Klingon encoding that puts the codes with the high bit set in a 8-bit encoding, and with the high bit clear uses ASCII.
18:40:23 <elliott> Name Last modified Size Description
18:40:23 <elliott> latest.sql.bz2 15-Oct-2011 22:27 19M
18:40:23 <elliott> notlatest.sql.bz2 21-Jul-2009 22:25 9.2M
18:41:25 <Taneb> Judging by the dates, it's accurate too
18:41:51 <fizzie> latest_REAL2_for_real_this_time.sql.bz2
18:43:14 <fizzie> And of course the currently-in-production front page, index_latest_test7_typofix.php.
18:45:13 <elliott> Taneb: Break a reverse implication.
18:45:36 <Taneb> I was thinking more along the lines of "don't turn left"
18:46:06 <Timwi> “don’t shoot arrows at civilians”?
18:46:10 <elliott> It should modify the variables such that the boolean operation of reverse implication evaluates to false given them.
18:46:33 <Timwi> boolean satisfiability? :-p
18:47:52 <elliott> Timwi: If it takes too long the interpreter just starts mutating logical constants at random until it works.
18:48:01 <elliott> Eventually it gets sick and rewrites your program to have an easier problem to solve.
18:48:35 <Timwi> Yeah, like wiping it :-p
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19:25:52 <Timwi> I feel terrible for being the last one to say anything. It makes it look like I killed the conversation
19:28:13 <Taneb> I know the feeling
19:39:43 <zzo38> I made up esolang now.
19:40:18 <Timwi> Taneb: “get drunk”?
19:42:10 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bruijndejx
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19:48:57 <Taneb> zzo38: interesting
19:50:15 <oerjan> <zzo38> I want to make the spells in Icosahedral RPG to form a category.
19:50:28 <zzo38> Does this look like a proper implementation of De Bruijn indexing? http://sprunge.us/FDCd
19:50:45 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is what I wanted it to do. But I don't know the details.
19:51:06 <oerjan> well if you have one spell turning an A into a B, and another spell turning a B into a C, then doing the spells one after the other would seem to be an obvious composition
19:52:14 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I did think of that. But not all spells are transmutation.
19:52:33 <oerjan> although if you have a spell to split an A into a B and a C, it seems like you would get use for Arrows...
19:54:21 <oerjan> anyway, it seems like making the category objects the state of prerequisites and result of spells would be a start
19:58:20 <oerjan> zzo38: when you are doing both x == i and x > i tests you can also do a case compare x i of { LT -> ...; EQ -> ...; GT -> ... }
19:58:56 <Madoka-Kaname> What kind of operations can you do if you had, say, a fireball and a magic dart spell.
19:59:35 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, thank you for that information.
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20:00:15 <oerjan> this might be slightly more efficient, in theory, if the Ord instance is written for it
20:00:22 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: Yes; not all spells would be transmutations. Some would affect instances of other spells (or itself), some would create fireballs, some might be divination, etc
20:00:44 <zzo38> oerjan: If the Ord instance is written for what?
20:01:07 <zzo38> But do you know if there is anything wrong with this program that results in incorrect answers?
20:01:08 <oerjan> to implement compare directly
20:01:19 <oerjan> i don't know if it matters in practice
20:03:11 <zzo38> Or if there is anything inconsistent in my program?
20:03:25 <oerjan> oh also it is more idiomatic to do assignLocal i v h = case h of { as assignLocal i v (Apply x y) = ...; ... etc.
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20:11:01 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't see anything wrong with your algorithm
20:18:31 <zzo38> Should I put in annotations for expressions/patterns?
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20:19:16 <zzo38> Do you think it would help much?
20:29:18 <pikhq_> That's positively moronic.
20:29:22 <elliott> Does Derren Brown have anything more to offer the world at this point? I think we get the idea.
20:29:29 <pikhq_> Somehow, fglrx-driver got removed from Debian testing.
20:31:46 <oerjan> zzo38: i see ghc core's Expr, which is slightly similar to your Exp, contains a Note constructor for that
20:31:57 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc-7.2.1/CoreSyn.html#t:Expr
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20:37:00 <zzo38> Well, I was thinking to use a type parameter for the type of annotations (and then making the functor)
20:38:24 <oerjan> zzo38: even more flexible might be to make the type parameter of kind * -> *
20:39:08 <zzo38> oerjan: I was thinking of that too, and also thinking I don't know what to do about that and agree with you about probably overkill, too.
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20:43:13 <oerjan> zzo38: well the question is whether you'd actually need the functor instance for anything
20:45:04 <zzo38> To change annotations which might be used if one transformation requires one kind of annotations and another one uses different annotations, I suppose.
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20:47:51 <oerjan> hm ghc core Expr does sort of support an arbitrary type if you use Expr (TaggedBndr t), although the annotation is only on binders
20:50:12 <oerjan> oh huh they have AnnExpr further down
20:58:07 <oerjan> <fizzie> I don't think var'aq can be written in the Klingon script, possibly because it didn't make it to Unicode and the current private-use area based thing is so arbitrary.
20:58:47 <oerjan> i vaguely recall way back when i read the conlang list that there was an attempt to coordinate private-use assignments for conlangs
20:58:52 <oerjan> don't know what came of it
20:59:06 <elliott> http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/
20:59:22 <zzo38> Even if you don't use the Unicode, you can use a custom encoding instead
20:59:29 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:59:32 <elliott> has the all important SEUSS LETTER ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ: http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/seuss.html
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21:06:09 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/translate_t
21:07:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Deewiant: http://i.imgur.com/FmxnS.png
21:07:51 <oerjan> at least in swearing-related contexts. makes sense.
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21:37:51 <ais523> map(_, L, []) :- \+ free(L), L = [], !. map(_, [], []). map(Func, [H|T], [H2|T2]) :- Eval =.. [Func, H, H2], Eval, map(Func, T, T2).
21:38:03 <ais523> is that an abomination of Prolog, or normal style?
21:38:23 <ais523> you'd think that something like that would be in the standard library if you were meant to do it
21:38:35 <ais523> the first case is an optimisation to make it tail-recursive
21:38:46 <ais523> free(X) :- \+ (\+ (X = 1)), \+ (\+ (X = 2)).
21:39:01 <ais523> oh, forgot the helper definition; that is in the standard library of some Prologs, but either it isn't in mine, or I forgot what it was called
21:41:10 <ais523> and like any good Prolog function, it works backwards too
21:41:23 <ais523> s/tail-recursive/deterministic/
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21:50:10 <ais523> actually, I don't think it works if you don't give the function you're mapping on
21:50:14 <ais523> but that would be ridiculous if it did
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22:06:49 <monqy> what is it lambda prolog that does unification on functions? are there any good uses for that
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22:07:45 <oerjan> ais523: hm why couldn't the first two lines be simply combined to map(_, [], []) :- !. ?
22:08:21 <ais523> if you run it as map(anything, X, Y), it'd return only X=[], Y=[]
22:08:37 <ais523> while it should also generate one-element, two-element, etc. lists as possible results
22:08:53 <ais523> so you have to check that the second argument isn't free before doing the cut
22:09:15 <oerjan> ais523: hm i may have misremembered what \+ is
22:09:17 <ais523> there is a little ridiculousness in writing not (not not X=1 and not not X=2), though
22:09:40 <ais523> it's defined along the lines of \+ X :- X, !, fail. \+ _.
22:09:52 <ais523> although it's typically in the standard library so you don't need the definition
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22:13:47 <oerjan> monqy: i vaguely recall some theorem provers depend on unification of functions
22:14:09 <oerjan> typed unification, though
22:14:42 <ais523> it's a pity you can't write map(X, [1,2,3,4,5], [2,4,6,8,10]). and actually get a result in X
22:15:01 <oerjan> ...you just said that would be ridiculous :P
22:15:08 <ais523> you could in Proud, but it's uncomputable precisely because it lets you do that sort of thing
22:15:14 <ais523> oerjan: it is ridiculous, but it's also a pity
22:15:25 <ais523> it's ridiculous enough that writing Eval like that actually works
22:15:53 <oerjan> ais523: btw isn't there a predicate like = except which doesn't unify? then you wouldn't need free there
22:16:23 <ais523> oerjan: there's not-not-equals, which I used in the definition of free, but although it doesn't unify it'll still match a free variable with anything
22:16:33 <ais523> whereas I want to match a bound variable to [], and reject free variables
22:19:09 <oerjan> http://www.gprolog.org/manual/html_node/gprolog027.html#Standard-total-ordering-of-terms
22:19:16 <oerjan> looks like == should work?
22:20:04 <ais523> wow, == is so massively unPrologish
22:21:27 <ais523> and I get a nagging feeling that it should really be called ===
22:21:31 <ais523> with == reserved for not-not-equals
22:21:35 <ais523> oh well, can't violate the standard
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22:27:09 -!- Timwi-Away has changed nick to Timwi.
22:27:55 <Timwi> Hey ais523, how are you? :)
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22:31:03 <Vorpal> <ais523> there is a little ridiculousness in writing not (not not X=1 and not not X=2), though <-- why would you ever do that?
22:31:16 <ais523> Vorpal: to verify that X is free
22:31:25 <ais523> you can't assign two different valuables to a variable that already has a set value
22:31:25 <Vorpal> ais523: eh, which language is this in?
22:31:33 <ais523> and the double-not prevents the assignment being permanent
22:31:44 <Vorpal> ais523: so there is no compare?
22:32:08 <ais523> Vorpal: you're trying to verify that a variable has no value
22:32:13 <ais523> I don't see how you'd do that with a comparison
22:32:20 <ais523> no value isn't a value you can compare to
22:32:27 <Vorpal> ais523: hm, something undefined() ?
22:32:54 <ais523> Vorpal: no, it's not like NULL or undefined or whatever
22:32:58 <ais523> it is the absence of a value
22:33:08 <ais523> Prolog uses SSA, in a sense, in that once a variable has a value, you can't change it
22:33:24 <ais523> unlike SSA, though, a variable can stay without a value arbitrarily long, rather than having to have one at intializaiton
22:34:07 <ais523> also, two variables can be unified, so that they have the same value eventually when either are assigned
22:34:12 <ais523> a bit like quantum entanglement
22:39:14 <zzo38> I think some Perl modules can also make quantum entanglement variables. But a different way would be to represent the state vector.
22:39:39 <Patashu> quantum computing does sound perlish
22:39:48 <Patashu> I assume hardware acceleration will be available in some 20 years?
22:41:18 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL's "quantum changes" isn't really
22:41:21 <ais523> it's just a sort of threading
22:46:35 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ allquotes \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ marco \ paste \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ ping \ prefixes \ quine \ quote \ quotes \ roll \ toutf8
22:47:09 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 1/1000 (exactly 0.001) kg (mass) \ Right side is: 1 m s^-2 (acceleration) \
22:49:20 <oerjan> `frink 9.8 m/s^2 / c * year
22:49:55 <oerjan> `frink tanh(9.8 m/s^2 / c * year)
22:50:03 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "tanh". \ 1.0315732310779089713 tanh (undefined symbol)
22:50:20 <oerjan> `frink tanh[9.8 m/s^2 / c * year]
22:50:29 <zzo38> ais523: I know CLC-INTERCAL's quantum computing is not real quantum computing. But CLCLC-INTERCAL might have proper quantum computing
22:50:59 <ais523> zzo38: note that proper quantum computing needs to be reversible up until you collapse the state, or it uses infinite (or very large) amounts of energy
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22:51:31 <Rugxulo> Deewiant here? anyone seen him lately?
22:52:02 <oerjan> Rugxulo: no such person, nothing to see here, move on
22:52:08 <Rugxulo> did you know that (2011-07-03) "current dmd (1.068 & 2.053)" fixes your bug report (finally)?
22:52:38 <zzo38> ais523: I know that.
22:52:57 <Rugxulo> also, it seems work is heavily under way to integrate GDC into GCC proper
22:53:13 <Deewiant> #3001? Yes, I get notifications from the 'zilla
22:53:59 <Rugxulo> I just found out and wanted to make sure you knew (as two years is quite a long time)
22:56:06 <Deewiant> Two years probably brings the mean time for my (nontrivial) bug reports down
22:58:48 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:58:48 <Rugxulo> I also guess it's pointless to mention that FBBI was updated too? ;-)
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22:59:48 <Deewiant> Somebody announced that here when it happened
23:00:39 <Rugxulo> I figured (just haven't been here a lot lately)
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23:23:56 <zzo38> You can tell who the shoe maker is because they have holes in their shoes.
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23:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Note to self: reading r/math is not wise shortly after applying to do maths at university.
23:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Talking to an unemployed mathematician is also perhaps unwise.
23:50:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "Future experiments with high-energy theorem accelerators may reveal its true nature."
23:51:37 <oerjan> well physicists have been pretty good at inventing math before proving it actually works :P
23:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm afraid that one goes over my head (do I shoot myself now).
23:55:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:56:10 <oerjan> @tell Phantom_Hoover for a start, calculus was used for hundreds of years without a sound logical basis. dirac used "functions" which did not exist for quantum mechanics. and one of the millennium problems is proving that the mathematics of quantum field theory is actually mathematically consistent. also i'm tempted to ban you for quitting the moment i had finished writing the previous sentence.
23:57:24 <zzo38> That is not a very good reason to ban someone.
23:57:45 <oerjan> and you still don't have a working joke detector :P
23:58:55 <oerjan> not that one is necessary here
23:59:42 <CakeProphet> oerjan: I am deeply offended that you would think that joke detectors even exist.