00:07:16 <lambdabot> [48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,65,66,67,68,69,70]
00:08:28 <Madoka-Kaname> > map (chr . (\x -> 48+x+(8*(toIntegral$x/10))) [0..15]
00:08:29 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:08:37 <Madoka-Kaname> > map (chr . (\x -> 48+x+(8*(toIntegral $ x / 10))) [0..15]
00:08:38 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:08:42 <Madoka-Kaname> > map (chr . (\x -> 48+x+(8*(toIntegral $ x / 10)))) [0..15]
00:08:55 <lambdabot> Numeric fromRat :: RealFloat a => Rational -> a
00:08:55 <lambdabot> Prelude fromRational :: Fractional a => Rational -> a
00:09:00 <oerjan> > ord . intToDigit <$> [0..15]
00:09:01 <Madoka-Kaname> > map (chr . (\x -> 48+x+(8*(fromRational $ x / 10)))) [0..15]
00:09:02 <lambdabot> [48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,97,98,99,100,101,102]
00:09:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
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00:09:37 <oerjan> > intToDigit <$> [0..15]
00:09:46 <elliott> CakeProphet: char's signedness is undefined.
00:09:55 <elliott> glibc/linux uses signed char
00:10:27 <CakeProphet> return ((int)data)-48 //so then this probably isn't sensible where data is declared char.
00:10:45 <CakeProphet> and guaranteed at this point to be a char from 0 to 9
00:11:16 <CakeProphet> I may just convert the char to a string and use atoi...
00:11:23 <oerjan> iirc the 0-127 ascii range is guaranteed to be positive
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00:48:29 <Zondartul> Hey. I bet this question gets asked a hundred times a day... but what do is your stance on the fictional language ~ath from homestuck?
00:49:14 <oerjan> hm are any of the homestuck readers active...
00:49:34 <oerjan> also, i haven't heard it before.
00:49:51 <CakeProphet> except that there's no spec for it so not really.
00:51:33 <Zondartul> aww... I thought one of you esolang programmers would hack together something that resembles it by now :P
00:52:12 <elliott> We have almost as many Homestuck readers as Finns now.
00:53:11 <oerjan> ...is there any overlap?
00:53:39 <CakeProphet> the world-destroying semantics have been a little tricky to implement.
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01:30:14 <Sgeo|web> elliott: There's a complication. I can't just randomly block the thread making the AW calls
01:30:42 <Sgeo|web> Because that needs to call aw_wait() on a regular basis. And during the aw_wait() calls is when events are triggered
01:30:49 <elliott> Sgeo|web: It wouldn't block.
01:31:18 <elliott> Sgeo|web: I can help you hash out an actual design sometime, but not right now. You can definitely make it work out though.
01:34:24 <Sgeo|web> Someone did write code using .NET's new async stuff
01:34:42 <Sgeo|web> Which kind of makes me jealous since I kind of wanted to show off making async calls look synchroneous
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01:38:05 <elliott> STM is something completely different.
01:38:20 <Sgeo|web> elliott: just curious, why use an MVar instead of STM?
01:38:31 <elliott> Sgeo|web: STM buys you nothing here. I presume you mean TMVars.
01:38:42 <elliott> You don't want transactional semantics, you want the lower-level interface of MVar.
01:38:54 <elliott> There's never a conflict by definition anyway.
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01:41:55 <CakeProphet> so what's wrong with "using namespace std"?
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01:42:22 <CakeProphet> but I really don't enjoy the propagation of stds in my code.
01:43:24 <Sgeo|web> Well, if you're using it in a header, then you're forcing it on people, is one issue
01:47:29 <Sgeo|web> "If you import the right header files you suddenly have names like hex, left, plus or count in your global scope. This might be surprising if you are not aware that std:: contains these names. If you also try to use these names locally it can lead to quite some confusion."
01:47:37 <Sgeo|web> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1452721/why-is-using-namespace-std-considered-a-bad-practice-in-c
01:48:37 <CakeProphet> okay but what about when I'm not a header file.
01:48:58 <Sgeo|web> ...that applies to even in a non-header file
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03:07:34 <CakeProphet> uh what was the option to get debugging symbols from g++?
03:08:02 <Gregor> pooppy's right on this one.
03:08:07 <Gregor> It's the same as any other GCC compiler.
03:08:27 <CakeProphet> but I recall it being a longer option name.
03:08:51 <Gregor> I assume by "get debugging symbols" you mean "have debugging symbols in the output binary"?
03:14:31 <Gregor> Ohhh, then you want -gdwarf-2 -feliminate-dwarf2-dups -fno-merge-debug-strings -fmem-report -fprofile-arcs.
03:16:29 -!- coppro has set topic: Agora invades BlogNomic! | #include "stdio.h".
03:16:29 <coppro> int main() { auto anonfunc = [](int a) { return a;}; printf("%s\n", typeid(anonfunc.operator()).name()); }
03:16:44 <CakeProphet> why did you make me look at the ugly lambda syntax
03:16:50 <coppro> anyone have the log link?
03:16:58 -!- Gregor has set topic: pooppy is now banned from changing the topic | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:17:12 -!- coppro has set topic: Agora invades BlogNomic! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:17:58 <monqy> the esotericest matter
03:17:58 * Sgeo|web wants a language where time and space complexity are part of types
03:18:05 -!- oerjan has set topic: Agora invades BlogNomic! | 12345678^&!* | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:19:11 <CakeProphet> Sgeo|web: I would like some runtime value constraints as part of types.
03:19:31 <CakeProphet> so you could say "this value is between in this interval of integers" for example.
03:20:14 <CakeProphet> I suppose that would be some form of dependent typing.
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04:03:54 <Sgeo|web> Homestuckers other than tswett: EoA5 progress bar UPDATE to 96%
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04:18:38 <elliott> hey monqy design my file format
04:22:23 <Sgeo|web> Cale... actually agreed with something I said
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04:28:28 <monqy> what sort of file format
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04:29:54 <elliott> monqy: reverse-context tree
04:30:18 <monqy> can't say I know much about those
04:30:47 <elliott> monqy: yeah but i mean i just need like
04:31:35 <monqy> I've never been fond of bee trees.
04:31:38 <monqy> those things hurt, you know
04:36:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4459
05:25:30 <Patashu> craaazy people http://www.tpuc.org/node/609
05:25:42 <Patashu> The DECEPTION of: INCLUDE(S) used by TV LICENSING oop's sorry! CONSIGNIA (CUSTOMER MANAGEMENT) LTD also Traded as TV LICENSING
05:26:58 <monqy> wow this webs ite sure is angry
05:27:14 <monqy> stop ylling my ears are senseteve i have problems
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05:28:12 <Patashu> Please note the CAPITALISATION should not be seen as shouting, but is simply being used to highlight the LEGAL ILLUSION.
05:28:24 <Patashu> (however, it is much funnier if you yell the more bolded/capitalized/underliend it is)
05:28:32 <elliott> Patashu: did you read that Free Man site where like
05:28:42 <elliott> it's a contract for your legal fiction which is distinguished by being ALL CAPITALS
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05:28:48 <elliott> and if you go into court and demand they address you by their firts name
05:28:50 <Patashu> elliott: that's this website
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05:28:59 <elliott> Patashu: no it was much more lo-fi but yes i am sure it is peddled in many places
05:29:49 <monqy> when i read "free man site" i thought timecube
05:29:53 <Patashu> Because the LEGAL world can only ACT (CONTRACT) upon LEGAL PERSONALITIES (PIECES of PAPER) they need the Man or Woman to REPRESENT a BIRTH CERTIFICATE, LEGAL PERSONALITY, a PIECE of PAPER.
05:29:56 <monqy> the freeest man site
05:30:28 <CakeProphet> freeest is the freeest usage of English gramar.
05:30:35 <Patashu> you know, if the legal system was run by robotic beings
05:30:42 <Patashu> freemen would actually have a chance
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05:31:38 * Patashu is a function that takes a pointer to a legal personality
05:32:49 <CakeProphet> has anyone seen C++ code that takes references to pointers?
05:32:59 <CakeProphet> also can you have points to references? that sounds weird to me.
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05:34:11 <monqy> pointers are weird
05:34:32 <Patashu> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/1sf8shae(v=vs.80).aspx references to pointers
05:34:49 <Patashu> can't find pointer to reference. I don't think that even makes sense
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05:39:24 <Jafet> Patashu: http://www.cnet.com/8301-30976_1-20068778-10348864.html
05:42:34 <monqy> im going to operate a nuclear facilities using itunes
05:42:42 <Patashu> every time I try to load that page google chrome's tab crashes
05:42:51 <monqy> then put them on aircraft and operate the aircraft using itunes
05:43:00 <monqy> stuff itunes operated life support systems into it
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05:44:01 <monqy> man eulas are nuts
05:45:18 <CakeProphet> seriously we should probably utilize this great new invention called the computer to assist us with categorizing and maintaining laws.
05:45:55 <elliott> CakeProphet: they tried that
05:45:58 <elliott> and look where blognomic is now
05:46:02 <elliott> coppro: Sgeo|web: TOPICAL JOKE
05:46:30 -!- coppro has set topic: BlogNomic invades BlogNomic! | 12345678^&!* | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:46:56 <elliott> a stunning success and therefore failure
05:47:25 <CakeProphet> elliott: I mean things like "modularizing" law.
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05:47:53 <CakeProphet> so that you can refer to previous laws or a category of laws systematically, use consistent terminology, etc.
05:49:01 <CakeProphet> I guess in some countries this is basically how laws work.
05:49:15 <CakeProphet> but there's no accessible means by which the average person can sit and learn about it all.
05:49:25 <CakeProphet> too much legalese to sift through without obvious definitions.
05:49:33 <CakeProphet> this is why hypertext would be good, for legal bodies.
05:49:47 <elliott> http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html
05:50:07 <CakeProphet> and a category/template system. essentially like a wiki.
05:50:51 <Sgeo|web> Patashu: a game where, supposedly, all rules including the rules regarding rule changes can change
05:51:02 <Sgeo|web> In reality, it's looking more like "Ignore the rules if someone abuses them"
05:51:36 <CakeProphet> elliott: can I play? pretend I never said that. :P
05:51:54 <elliott> sign up for the lists, post saying you're registered
05:52:12 <Sgeo|web> Try not to look like a BlogNomic player, and that's not a whale
05:52:30 <CakeProphet> what else is a big fat fish with a blowhole.
05:52:35 <fizzie> Regarding the file format, following oerjan I suggest {a^i b^i c^i | i > 0}, as it cannot be recognized by a pushdown automaton.
05:52:50 <Sgeo|web> Whales aren't fish, but it's been a while since I saw the ruleset
05:53:35 <CakeProphet> which is permitted only when the Rules explicitly or implicitly permit it.
05:53:36 <fizzie> The @ makes it look a bit dizzy.
06:09:58 <CakeProphet> [CFJ 2410 (called 11 March 2009): Consent to join a binding agreement
06:10:11 <elliott> CakeProphet: been exploited in literally every way you can imagine, don't bother
06:11:28 <elliott> i'm too busy to talk about agora
06:11:46 <CakeProphet> ...you're welcome to be busy and not reply then. :P
06:12:52 <CakeProphet> in any case if I were planning to exploit something I surely wouldn't make mention of it.
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06:48:56 <CakeProphet> pizzas are a good way to describe composing data types in Haskell
06:49:14 <CakeProphet> a cheese pizza is basically the most basic kind of pizza, a pizza with nothing on it.
06:49:30 <CakeProphet> right but almost every other kind of pizza has cheese
06:50:16 <CakeProphet> so in a pepperoni pizza, you just include the cheese pizza, and pepperonis :P
06:50:45 <CakeProphet> that's... basically as far as I've gone with this analogy. It breaksdown rapidly from there. :P
06:52:36 <fizzie> I know a person who only eats pizza with no cheese on it.
06:52:46 <fizzie> So it's definitely not a requirement for being a pizza.
06:53:53 <CakeProphet> well pizza does have a very wide definition.
06:54:47 <CakeProphet> none of the typical definitions of pizza eliminate the cheese and only a few eliminate tomato sauce ("white" pizzas)
06:55:26 <fizzie> Yes, that was confusing. Anyway, there are several "standard" no-cheese pizza flavours in Italy.
06:55:58 <fizzie> Sadly I can't recall the names; they're not exactly widely available e.g. in Finland.
06:57:17 <CakeProphet> a "vegan pizza" would certainly have no cheese.
06:58:03 <fizzie> Pizza Marinara is at least a no-cheese thing.
06:58:40 <fizzie> And it's very much a "standard" pizza.
07:00:51 <fizzie> (It's listed as one of the three official Neapolitan pizzas in the Wikipedia article; it seems that means one of the three mentioned in the EU trademark for "Pizza Napoletana".
07:01:13 <fizzie> "‘Pizza Napoletana’ TSG is round with a variable diameter not exceeding 35 cm and a raised rim and
07:01:13 <fizzie> is garnished and baked in the oven. The central part is 0,4 cm thick, with a tolerance of ± 10 %, and
07:01:13 <fizzie> the rim is 1-2 cm thick. The overall pizza must be tender, elastic and easily foldable into four."
07:01:28 <fizzie> "The ‘Pizza Napoletana’ is seasoned as follows:
07:01:29 <fizzie> — using a spoon, place 70 to 100 g of crushed, peeled tomatoes in the centre of the disc of dough,
07:01:29 <fizzie> — using a spiralling motion, spread the tomato over the whole central surface,
07:01:29 <fizzie> — using a spiralling motion, add the salt to the surface of the tomato,
07:01:29 <fizzie> — in the same manner, scatter a pinch of oregano on the surface,
07:01:29 <fizzie> — chop a peeled clove of garlic into thin slices and place them on top of the tomato,
07:01:31 <fizzie> — using an oil dispenser with a spout and a spiralling motion, distribute over the surface area, from
07:01:33 <fizzie> the centre outwards, 4-5 g of extra virgin olive oil, with a tolerance of + 20 %."
07:01:35 <fizzie> The best trademark document.
07:01:56 <fizzie> It doesn't even specify the direction of the spiralling motion. :(
07:02:31 <pikhq_> I do believe the defining aspect of pizza is that it is flattened bread with toppings.
07:02:40 <Jafet> It depends on which hemisphere you live in
07:03:10 <CakeProphet> European food laws = the most ridiculous thing.
07:03:34 <fizzie> "Italian open pie made of thin bread dough spread with a spiced mixture of e.g. tomato sauce and cheese" --wordnet.
07:03:48 <CakeProphet> well, I can see benefits of having food laws and drawbacks.
07:04:02 <CakeProphet> the pizza has largely become the amazing thing it is today thanks to American corruption.
07:04:11 <fizzie> "A savoury dish of Italian origin, consisting of a flat, usually round base of dough, baked with a topping of tomatoes, cheese, and any of various other ingredients, such as meat, anchovies, or olives." --OED: so as a corollary, if it tastes bad, it's not a pizza?
07:04:22 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: s/American/Italian/
07:04:23 <elliott> You could get a refund based on that.
07:04:30 <pikhq_> The corruption was the doing of Italians in America.
07:05:12 <CakeProphet> yes, many Americans were, are, and come from European immigrants.
07:06:26 <pikhq_> What I mean is "it was literally done by first-generation Italian immigrants".
07:06:31 <CakeProphet> as a downside to loose food regulation, American food companies can package almost any concoction with a few basic ingredients and call it something that it really shouldn't be called at that point.
07:07:20 <fizzie> Coincidentally, fi:pissa = en:pee.
07:07:50 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: Actually, it's not quite that loose.
07:09:08 <CakeProphet> comparatively it is, but yes there are regulations.
07:09:25 <pikhq_> Wyngz is actually a regulated term.
07:10:29 <fizzie> "FSIS has a standard of identity in Title 9 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Section 381.170(b)(7) that defines a poultry "wing." The use of the term "wing" cannot be used on any poultry product unless it complies with this standard of identity. In comparison, FSIS allows the use of the term "wyngz" to denote a product that is in the shape of a wing or a bite-size appetizer type product under the following conditions in which the Agency considers its u
07:10:29 <fizzie> se fanciful and not misleading: [5 conditions]"
07:10:56 <fizzie> "-- the smallest letter in the descriptive name is no smaller than 1/3 the size of the largest letter used in "wyngz;" and --"
07:11:02 <fizzie> And you call the pizza trademark silly.
07:11:22 <pikhq_> I don't. If anything, US food regulations are even more silly.
07:12:02 <CakeProphet> I meant "ridiculous" in the sense that they're unecessarily strict, not silly.
07:12:16 <CakeProphet> there is no mistaking what an Italian pizza is.
07:14:53 <pikhq_> Has to be an actual wing from a chicken.
07:15:08 <pikhq_> Wyngz are... Perverse.
07:15:36 <CakeProphet> so if I create a solid block of macaroni and cheese in the shape of a wing, then that could be wyngz?
07:16:38 <CakeProphet> I know that in order to be "potato chips" it must be fried.
07:17:14 <pikhq_> Per their current definition of wyngz, it has to be white chicken meat in a bite-sized form...
07:18:10 <fizzie> I don't think it needs to be bite-sized: "in the shape of a wing *or* a bite-size appetizer type product" [emphasis mine].
07:18:27 <fizzie> But it does need to be white chicken.
07:18:41 <pikhq_> I suppose you could have a giant wyngz.
07:18:57 <CakeProphet> so I could make a wing-shaped product that is not capable of being eaten in a single mouthful.
07:19:11 <CakeProphet> or a unicorn shaped product that is edible in one "bite"
07:21:14 <fizzie> CakeProphet: Remember to submit your "wyngz" label to the Labeling and Program Delivery Division for sketch approval, because it is considered a special statement that cannot be generically approved.
07:21:45 <CakeProphet> does that apply for all names not regulated?
07:22:11 <fizzie> "The statement may only reference the term "wyngz" (no other misspellings are permitted)."
07:22:27 <CakeProphet> ah so I'd need one of those subtext things.
07:23:23 <fizzie> Possibly "wyngicorn" is far-enough removed from "wing" that it doesn't need special handling? I don't know.
07:24:10 <fizzie> Goal: chicken wyngicornz available in every bar.
07:25:26 <CakeProphet> well it said I "may" name them wyngz but don't have to if they fit this definition.
07:25:44 <CakeProphet> so it's more like... a helpful suggestion.
07:26:00 <elliott> CakeProphet: but if it's too close to wings, you'll get dinge
07:26:05 <elliott> because wings is regulated
07:26:32 <Patashu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u88AOoYAOQE this is pretty much the best TAS
07:26:38 <CakeProphet> I assure you that both wyngicorns and great cubicuboctahedrons will be nothing like wings.
07:27:02 <fizzie> If it's not a poultry product at all, though, there may be more latitude. I think you can have edible "cardboard wiingz" without problems.
07:27:21 <fizzie> It's just a matter of seasoning.
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07:31:52 <elliott> i hate styorofoamfs texture so much uuuurgh
07:32:16 <CakeProphet> though nothing on the internet seems to suggest there's such a thing.
07:32:37 <CakeProphet> maybe my childhood friend's mom was pranking me into eating styrofoam.
07:33:44 <CakeProphet> oh no there's such a thing as "corn plastic"
07:34:45 <CakeProphet> maillard reaction: great reaction or greatest reaction?
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08:14:41 <fizzie> Piet program spotted in the wild: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/the-rare-find-reinventing-recruiting-10132011.html (The whole puzzle thing is old, I guess, but didn't spot Piet in there.)
08:19:00 <elliott> > intercalate "?" (repeat "?")
08:19:01 <lambdabot> "??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????...
08:23:55 <Sgeo|web> If this were pure math and not Haskell, would it... oh, still countably infinite
08:24:40 <Sgeo|web> Stupid hotel story for kids has _still_ infected my mind and made me thing wrong thoughts
08:24:41 <lambdabot> "?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!...
08:25:01 <CakeProphet> fizzie: dude Facebook should totally hire me because I can recognize Piet programs.
08:25:42 <Madoka-Kaname> I don't get it. How do you pass an [a] into a [[a]]
08:27:16 <CakeProphet> Feces has always been associated with the lowest people among society, the social outcasts, the pariahs, the social discards. The Caste system in India was created along the lines of profession and the dalits or shudras (untouchables) were left to do work related to human emissions. They did such work as clean and pick feces from streets, clean toilets, work with dead bodies. Such practices are prevalent even today in th
08:27:48 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feces#Social_Implications
08:28:41 <elliott> CakeProphet: i probablys hould have realiesd that page would contain pictures of feces
08:29:17 <fizzie> It's missing the "bear scat showing a diet of prime numbers" picture.
08:29:42 <CakeProphet> I remember at one point there was a picture of human shit.
08:30:03 <CakeProphet> someone shat on a plate and took a picture of it for Wikipedia.
08:30:26 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> It's missing the "bear scat showing a diet of prime numbers" picture.
08:30:32 <HackEgo> 688) <fizzie> It's missing the "bear scat showing a diet of prime numbers" picture.
08:31:00 <fizzie> Perhaps someone shat on a plate and took a picture of it, and then later realized "oh, I can upload this to Wikipedia too, to do my part of the encyclopedia-making".
08:33:08 <Sgeo|web> Some rendition of Hilbert Hotel
08:33:37 <Sgeo|web> Ending had an infinite number of infinite-sized busses, and at the time, it seemed as though it was left ambiguous as to whether that was doable (countably infinite)
08:34:29 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyone_Poops
08:36:13 <Sgeo|web> http://www.ccs3.lanl.gov/mega-math/workbk/infinity/inhotel.html
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09:05:47 <shachaf> Sgeo|web: What's wrong with Hilbert's hotel?
09:06:34 <shachaf> Sure you can enumerate an that. It's just (N,N) ~ Q
09:07:11 <Sgeo|web> The part with the infinite people on infinite buses, I mistook what the story said wrt building catching on fire to mean that it wouldn't work
09:10:15 <CakeProphet> fizzie: still, I imagine there are plenty of good programmers who have never heard of Piet.
09:10:32 <CakeProphet> and so missed an opportunity to solve the actual puzzle.
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11:42:01 <fizzie> I seem to be slowly shaking away that "put a space after a trailing ?" habit: http://sprunge.us/cQhA
11:42:39 <elliott> fizzie: so if i made a bot that just happened to ...
11:43:08 <fizzie> Other people might find such a bot quite irritating.
11:58:22 <tswett> Ssy, does anyone know that thing that goes "da da da DA da da da"? I think it's not from Homestuck.
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13:00:32 <elliott> fizzie. fizzie. Get what you get to do.
13:03:38 <fizzie> I'm not here and no-one's seen me. You must be talking to yourself.
13:04:34 <elliott> Indeed. fizzie: WHAT'S A GOOD REVERSE CONTEXT TREE FORMAT.
13:05:45 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, actually I'm not sure I completely understand them. Does every single branch have "what comes next" information?
13:06:00 <elliott> fizzie: Like, at the root of the tree is there "what comes next" information for every single word in the corpus?
13:06:10 <elliott> (Or is it for getting the first word?)
13:08:23 <fizzie> At least in a theoretical discussion, at the root of the tree, the "what comes next" list would be the corpus unigrams; correspondingly, at subnode /FOO/BAR, the "what comes next" list would be the list of last words of all trigrams that match "BAR FOO *".
13:08:40 <elliott> Right. So every single node has a what's next list.
13:08:55 <elliott> fizzie: But, I suppose, in practice you omit the "what comes next" at the root of the tree?
13:10:14 <elliott> I guess I should still have an explicit start/end token. Except, wait, there's no actual way to extract those from n-gram data, is there?
13:10:40 <elliott> I guess I'll have to take sentence terminator tokens as my first thing, and then just drop the first token generated.
13:12:16 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure. I might not, just in case it has to back off to the zero-length context. (E.g. think of the case where it has generated "foo znurg", and [foo][znurg] was the only bigram (or any higher gram, obviously) containing the word 'znurg' that made the 40-count cutoffs. In that case, there will be no valid context, no /znurg node in the tree, and it has to create the next word from the unigrams.)
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13:13:14 <fizzie> Explicit start/end tokens are typical, then you generate an initial context of "<start>" when generating forward. But you're right that it's hard to get those from the Google data since they opted not to sentence-split their books.
13:13:19 <elliott> fizzie: I suppose it can't do any harm.
13:13:30 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
13:13:33 <ais523> fungot: I like this one
13:13:36 <fungot> ais523: mr president, it is only natural that the european parliament' s opportunities to study and evaluate the work of the research activities from the beginning of the 1980s there were 10 million new jobs created between 1997 and 1999, it would seem to be wholly absolute. thus it is not a fight against those who had previously opposed any military intervention and interference. two years of work, strengthening social cohesio
13:14:09 <elliott> fizzie: Are there any advantages of just doing "Take the union of the what's-next lists at the nodes '.', '!', '?', ... and then pick a token from there as the first token"?
13:14:17 <elliott> fizzie: I mean, it misses out e.g. the first sentences of books.
13:14:26 <elliott> But it seems like a sentence terminator is a pretty good place to find the start of a sentence.
13:14:44 <fizzie> I was about to suggest an initial context of "." or something, though of course there's quite a lot of .s that are not sentence terminators.
13:15:21 <elliott> fizzie: Well, right. I mean, remember that the actual generation will look like "start with n-gram, work forwards until sentence terminator, work backwards until sentence start".
13:15:26 <elliott> Beacuse of my double-tree thing.
13:16:06 <elliott> fizzie: Something like "sentence terminator → capital letter" seems to be a pretty good judge of start-of-sentence.
13:16:14 <elliott> I mean, obviously it won't be perfect.
13:16:34 <fizzie> There's not much more you can do than to treat the proper punctuation for sentence-termination, since for better sentence-splitting (to realize that "And the Mr J. Smith ate him." is not two sentences) you'd almost have to have the original sources.
13:17:06 <elliott> (That, uh, is some sentence.)
13:18:16 <elliott> data RCT = Branch (Map String Int) (Map String RCT)
13:18:29 <elliott> Where first map is word → occurs, and second descends down the tree.
13:18:36 <elliott> Am I wrong? Am I stupid? Am I bad? :(
13:19:10 <fizzie> If the tokens are interned, that might be a (Map Int Int) and (Map Int RCT) or something.
13:19:22 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, yes, it's ~symbolic~; remember that I can't actually load these into RAM.
13:19:43 <elliott> Also: What's a good way to do a weighted random choice on (occurs,choice) sets that you don't want to load into memory? :p
13:19:56 <elliott> (I guess the interning gives the advantage that each element of the set is constant-sized.)
13:20:07 <elliott> (So if I ordered them by occurs, I could just pick skewed towards the end of the list?)
13:20:10 <elliott> (Except that's kind of naff.
13:20:27 <elliott> There's no harm loading it into memory, because it'll never be larger than the unigrams.
13:20:38 <elliott> And the unigrams are just going to be a few megabytes in total. Maybe ten.
13:20:42 <elliott> At least so fizzie says. :p
13:21:55 <fizzie> Yes, you can probably stand loading a single node. But if you want, you could store it on-disk as (sum of occurs, [(cumulative occurs, choice)]), then pick a uniformly distributed value from [0, sum of occurs) and find the smallest choice for which the cumulative value is larger by a binary search.
13:22:11 <elliott> That sounds rather excruciatingly slow.
13:22:37 <fizzie> Probably. For the most part, the nodes are likely to be quite small.
13:22:39 <elliott> I mean, if I'm talking to a mechanical disk over USB, loading a few megs of sequential data is so much better than doing a binary search seek over a few megs of sequential data it's not even funny.
13:25:42 <fizzie> As for the sentence start tokens, you can sort-of artificially add those by ignoring all ". a b c d" and "w x y z ." (unfiltered, those would be redundant; even filtered, you'll probably get a reasonable set of punctuation-in-the-middle grams) and then for each "z . a b c", "y z . a b", "x y z . a" add the corresponding "z . </s> <s> a" and so on only when a starts with a capital letter and z is not a single character (to remove "Mr J. Smith"). Possibly not wor
13:26:40 <elliott> fizzie: How is that different to what I'd do at babble-time?
13:28:33 <fizzie> Well, I guess you can do the same at that time. Just that you'd generate one past the potential sentence-separator token at the end, and one before the sentence-separator token at the start, so you can apply some guesswork there.
13:35:42 <fizzie> Incidentally, I also "invented" your double-tree idea the other day. I was thinking of just having a regular trie of n-grams, with the "next word" lists, and then went all "ooh, an idea; if you add a 'previous word' list too so that for 'a b c d' you put 'a' on that list for /b/c/d, then you can generate backwards too and share much of the structure". Took a moment to realize that is actually equivalent for a reverse-context style tree for going backwards + re
13:35:42 <fizzie> gular context tree for going forward, which is pretty much the same thing as doing reverse-context for forward prediction and regular-context for backward.
13:36:38 <elliott> fizzie: Yep. That's... what I said, yes.
13:36:59 <elliott> fizzie: What does "pretty much" mean here?
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13:39:53 <fizzie> Well, no, it's not literally identical; you end up with a differently shaped tree, for one thing. In the first option (reverse-context for backward, regular-context for forward) it's slightly simpler to go backward (with a context of "a b x", at /a/b/ if there is no x/ you're already at the right place) and less simple to go foward; vice-versa for the other option.
13:40:09 <fizzie> At least when you are literally literal.
13:40:29 <elliott> fizzie: The way I did it made it easier to go forwards.
13:40:34 <elliott> fizzie: i.e. reverse-context for forwards.
13:40:55 <elliott> Admittedly there's a certain elegance that you go the Normal Way to go forwards and flip things around to go back.
13:44:24 <elliott> fizzie: I kind of want to use a reverse-context tree for both so it's more elegant, but AFAICT that would pretty much duplicate my space usage.
13:44:46 <fizzie> If you start with the "let's use a reverse-context tree for babble-generation" concept and then start to think "how can I make some use of this thing also for predicting text backwards", it goes more naturally like the way you were going to do it.
13:44:58 <elliott> data RCT = Branch [(String,Int)] (Map String RCT)
13:45:08 <elliott> data RCT = Branch (Map String Int) (Map String RCT)
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13:45:16 <elliott> data RCT = Branch (Map String (Int,RCT)) | Nope
13:45:31 <elliott> I mean, there'll never be anything in the latter map without it being in the former map, no?
13:45:41 <elliott> Or, hmm, wait, it's a /reverse/ context tree, so that doesn't necessarily hold
13:45:44 <elliott> Or do I have it backwards. Help.
13:45:55 <elliott> data RCT = Branch (Map String (Int, Maybe RCT))
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13:48:56 <fizzie> Yes, I guess you could combine them; though there's the fact that for the most numerous nodes that are four level deep, there will always be just Nothing in the Maybe. I suppose it doesn't matter semantically, but physically it might save space to keep the lists separate. Because of the reversedness, I'm not sure how much they share. I mean, for the n-gram list (b a x) (b a y) (c a x) (c a y) you will end up with node /a that has subnodes /a/b and /a/c, and nex
13:48:56 <fizzie> t-word list of (x, y).
13:49:13 <fizzie> Whoops, I need to get going; it's the alt barty thing.
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14:10:03 <tswett> elliott: no, I don't think so.
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14:40:26 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> You know what annoys me about Deep Space 9. <Phantom_Hoover> It wasn't in deep space. <Phantom_Hoover> It was orbiting Bajor.
14:40:28 <HackEgo> 689) <Phantom_Hoover> You know what annoys me about Deep Space 9. <Phantom_Hoover> It wasn't in deep space. <Phantom_Hoover> It was orbiting Bajor.
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15:29:35 <Vorpal> elliott, Phantom_Hoover had an interesting observation there
15:29:51 <Vorpal> however, I don't see the funny part of it
15:30:07 <elliott> who said the qdb is just for jokes?
15:30:33 <ais523> elliott: that sort of interesting observation is what xkcd is full of nowadays
15:30:37 <HackEgo> 579) <Phantom_Hoover> The only happy dorf has a compassion stat of 0. <Phantom_Hoover> Well, 20, but it amounts to the same.
15:31:03 <elliott> ais523: it's better-paced than xkcd, though
15:31:20 <HackEgo> 313) <anekant> what does coffee do to biological neural networks <JRowe> what tiger blood does for charlie sheen
15:31:23 <HackEgo> 407) <fizzie> You make a fist, shake it at the sky, and shout "why, GNU, why?!" -- that is the standard reportig practice.
15:31:25 <HackEgo> 159) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
15:31:25 <ais523> I actually looked at very early xkcd; it isn't all that good
15:31:33 <HackEgo> 250) [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG.
15:31:33 <HackEgo> 58) <Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see?
15:31:36 <elliott> very early xkcd isn't that good but it has charm
15:31:38 <ais523> the famous sudo make me a sandwich comic is pretty much the first good one, and even it's debatable
15:31:50 <elliott> fifty in to three hundred fifty in
15:32:00 <ais523> elliott: agreed, I hadn't read that one yet
15:32:04 <ais523> but when I did it was obviously worst
15:32:45 <HackEgo> 313) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
15:32:59 <HackEgo> 500) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace
15:33:19 <tswett> Quick, everyone, say lots of witty things.
15:33:24 <HackEgo> 123) <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
15:33:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that one?
15:33:46 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
15:33:47 <fungot> ais523: since the start of the construction of a european vision, tools that are in favour of the new proposal on feed hygiene at the earliest possible opportunity and also turning to the most economically advanced countries of the union.
15:33:49 <HackEgo> 12) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 16) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 19) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing
15:33:58 <fungot> ais523: mr president, may i confirm the position which was not discussed, and if not, are covered by qualified majority in order for these slight growth rates to be reduced in the same vein, it would be misleading and cannot therefore be accepted.
15:34:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31357
15:34:02 <tswett> Or we could just spam fungot so that he says every quotable thing there is.
15:34:03 <fungot> tswett: very briefly, ladies and gentlemen, that in order to improve their knowledge and professional skills as well as, of course and i too found it astonishing, that there are amendments nos 12, 13 and 19 propose the continuation of equality between men and women are part of our negotiating mandate for the future of homeopathic medicine.
15:34:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:34:17 <Vorpal> hm... `run sort < quotes > q && mv q quotes
15:34:22 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
15:34:23 <Vorpal> guess that would be a bad idea
15:34:30 <tswett> fungot: so what's this, then?
15:34:30 <fungot> tswett: to the left is that house shape you've seen everything!
15:34:40 <tswett> fungot: that wasn't quite as awesome as I was hoping.
15:34:40 <fungot> tswett: so the dumbest and most far fetched but whatever.
15:34:55 <HackEgo> 437) <Phantom_Hoover> The wickedest man of all. <Phantom_Hoover> Surpassed only in wickedness by the wicked witches of the west and east. <copumpkin> you talking about me again? <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. <copumpkin> k \ 532) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
15:34:56 <tswett> fungot: yeah, I can't even tell who's supposed to be talking or anything. Those sentences are way too short.
15:34:56 <fungot> tswett: a place perhaps it is the human riddle that is truly the ultimate riddle. now it is my turn to the back inside cover, but it seems the john in the head of your smaller hammer from your deck is really dwindling now. maybe this game you are about to play
15:35:13 <tswett> fungot: there, much better.
15:35:17 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
15:35:22 <fungot> Vorpal: it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia the xxxiii. i really enjoyed such powers... now it's nick!userhost-limited to me, and ile not wish thee more
15:35:37 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has. you came through, which is more fnord than they just never put things into
15:36:01 <fungot> Vorpal:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
15:36:08 <fungot> Vorpal: uninterned symbols, pairs, procedures, and so am i just being anal here or am i misunderstanding how these were the people skills of a plane
15:36:27 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:36:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it might?
15:36:42 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
15:36:45 <Vorpal> just we haven't hit it yet
15:37:04 <Vorpal> did it just spit out a style listing from the fungot style?
15:37:04 <fungot> Vorpal: i know i didn't know that you've already asked, but then i need to enter " qemu" to edit is the ordinary ( for call/ cc))) hangs
15:37:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, how often do you update the fungot style?
15:37:14 <fungot> Vorpal: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has to be all " pow!" and he was suddenly i rose, put up her mouth, pulled down by the gold saucer... think his name was close ever, and yet, at least, that is expressions which have not been able, to assume responsibilities. he went on, " the conclusion is, then thou, the greatest soldier, de. she wanna be friends, his state vsurp'd, his realme a slaughter-house, his subjects, t
15:37:37 <Vorpal> hm I guess you could get some boring feedback loops that way
15:37:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't, really. Unless someone tells me to.
15:37:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there is no obvious reason to update styles that don't change. Like ct or ic
15:38:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it possible for fungot style to enter the sword cycle?
15:38:23 <fungot> Vorpal: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
15:38:52 <Vorpal> iirc you had some perl script to check such
15:39:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Probably, though I haven't checked.
15:39:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:40:27 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
15:40:28 <Vorpal> and why in /msg instead of in channel
15:40:49 <fizzie> $ ./testlm-disk.pl data/tokens.bin.fungot data/model.bin.fungot 1 sword alone
15:40:49 <fizzie> sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop, crono! crono...! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger that a major debate will be held in new york is a very important relevant for this page? tried toggling hardware/ software flow control on and off, etc
15:40:50 <fungot> fizzie: bushie. more welcome is the stroake of death to gaze vpon these secrets of the state, and vsurpe the beggerie hee was neuer borne to: lord angelo is seuere law: i had as liue haue a reede that will doe me no seruice, as a cat laps milke, they'l tell the clocke, and in your anger, did i not by fnord of your old-fac'd walles, can hide you from our court
15:40:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, who is switching style outside of the channel? Can't you see from the logs of it?
15:41:19 <tswett> I've kind of implied who switched it.
15:41:58 <fizzie> Can only see last screenful.
15:42:17 <fizzie> Okay, and the screen backscroll buffer.
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15:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_grand_stellated_120-cell
15:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> You can stick that in your great cubicuboctahedron and smoke it, CakeProphet.
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16:00:55 <fizzie> The non-Internetted parts, it seems.
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16:13:16 <elliott> Oh no, I think I need a: zipper.
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16:15:25 <Ngevd> IWC is in the eighth day of its guest week
16:15:40 <Ngevd> Andrew Hussie is at 96% of the 25/10 update
16:15:51 <Ngevd> And someone said hi to me!
16:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd believes that he is loved for a single, sweet moment.
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16:26:22 <pikhq_> Jebus. Median pay in the US is $26k.
16:27:29 <Ngevd> The... interquartile range?
16:32:07 <fizzie> The... geometric mean?
16:40:07 <elliott> what's an efficient way to do
16:40:18 <elliott> instead of xs you can also use xs'
16:40:32 <elliott> (with no computational cost0
16:40:52 <elliott> > map reverse (inits [0,9,9])
16:41:44 <elliott> <elliott> what's an efficient way to do
16:41:44 <elliott> <elliott> map reverse (inits xs)
16:41:44 <elliott> <elliott> instead of xs you can also use xs'
16:41:44 <elliott> <elliott> which == reverse xs
16:41:45 <elliott> <elliott> (with no computational cost0
16:42:03 <elliott> and map reverse (inits xs)
16:42:08 <elliott> but preferably something without reverse at all
16:42:28 <copumpkin> look at the order it produces results in
16:42:33 <copumpkin> it'd need to look at the end of the list
16:42:43 <elliott> copumpkin: this is actually a trick question, my list is a literal and has five elements
16:42:47 <elliott> I guess I'll just write out the result manually
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16:51:15 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, I've gone dumb suddenly.
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16:52:02 <fizzie> Are you sure the proper verb is "gone"? (Sorry.)
16:52:19 <fizzie> Also I'm at this thing, I'm not really here.
16:52:34 <Ngevd> It should be "became"
16:52:48 <elliott> fizzie: Yes but but but but but
16:55:16 <elliott> fizzie: Surely a context tree would be better than a reverse context tree for babbling, as you'd just descend a node whenever you appended to the output?
16:57:07 <fizzie> Nnnnno, because the tree only goes five levels deep. Though you could, I suppose, theoretically have some sort of a loopy graph.
16:57:48 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, hmm, right. How does it being reversed actually help at all, then?
16:58:23 <fizzie> The point of the reverse context thing is that when you have a context of "... a b c d e", you don't need to know how long a context you can actually find in your model. You just start with /e, and then descend to /e/d, and to /e/d/c, and then stop if you can't find new subnodes.
16:58:53 <fizzie> Whereas with a trie you'd first try to find /b/c/d/e; but if that doesn't exist, you'd have a new search for /c/d/e; and then /d/e; and /e; and finally /.
16:59:39 <elliott> fizzie: I'm still rather sceptical of how much use anything but the full thing will get since I'm not crunching the model at all :-)
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17:00:45 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
17:01:01 <fizzie> Make some statistics when you're babbling. It'll be a nonzero amount in any case with the filtered 'grams. (Might be nonzero with the "complete" model too, but I can't be bothered to think through that right now.)
17:01:21 <fizzie> Also the reverse-tree is nicely usable with variable-length 'grams, you don't have to start looking with a max(length(grams))-1 of context.
17:01:49 <pagnol> I'm browsing the list of languages and wondering which one to learn (or attempt to do so)
17:02:15 <monqy> underload is good yes
17:02:49 <pagnol> and appears to be well-documented, I appreciate that
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17:02:53 <monqy> the simplicity helps it be good (simple is good (do not think otherwise (that would be a mistake (many people have made this mistake (dont
17:03:00 <monqy> (im not going to close these (suffer
17:03:58 <fizzie> (Accidentally a dirty word earlier.)
17:10:49 <pagnol> what's so great about Underload?
17:11:17 <elliott> and you do loops by quining, in a sense
17:11:30 <elliott> yet it still allows for pretty short, elegant programs
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17:13:58 <pagnol> do you know of a language that draws on logic, though in an unusual fashion, perhaps? like Prolog but esoteric
17:14:15 <Gregor> "Astronauts Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong had to go through US Customs to come back from the moon."
17:14:32 <zzo38> I didn't know that.
17:15:04 <elliott> They filled in the forms for a laugh.
17:15:12 <elliott> (The forms are real but not required.)
17:15:23 <elliott> pagnol: ask ais523 about Proud :-P
17:15:50 <ais523> pagnol: Proud isn't really practical, unfortunately; it allows doing things like quantifying over functions, etc
17:15:58 <ais523> it's basically just "Prolog with no restrictions, even if they're really necessary"
17:16:14 <ais523> also, using nondeterminism in the NFA sense, rather than backtracking
17:16:20 <ais523> I haven't worked out the details
17:17:13 <pagnol> it needn't be practical
17:17:29 <pagnol> there's no entry in the list ...
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17:28:03 <boily> what is function quantification?
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17:32:25 <ais523> boily: basically, describing a function in terms of contraints
17:32:32 <ais523> and having the program iterate over /all functions/ to find the one you want
17:32:43 <ais523> Proud doesn't really have the details worked out, which is why it isn't online
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17:58:20 <coppro> elliott: does there exist a Haskell indent?
17:59:07 <elliott> coppro: yes, it's called emacs; you can also do something with haskell-src-extras (it retains comments) if you really want
17:59:14 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6870148/is-there-a-haskell-code-formatter http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/j31f4/is_there_a_haskell_code_formatter/ for more info
18:07:37 <pagnol> does anyone partake in the ai-class.com?
18:16:55 <Ngevd> I just managed to type "Twitter" instead of "IRC"
18:30:18 <zzo38> I have trying to make logic stuff in Haskell, and have come up with the contrapositive rule and double negation rule being: doubleNot = flip id; contrapositive = flip (.);
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18:58:05 <Ngevd> 2011 is proving a good year for Taneb-made esoteric programming languages
19:02:49 <Ngevd> Of course, 2011 is proving to be the only year for Taneb-made esoteric programming languages
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19:22:13 <Taneb> Creator of Nandypants, Numberwang, MIBBLLII, Luigi, Brook, and Constantinople
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19:22:53 <zzo38> I have implemented Constantinople, although I did not invent Constantinople. But I did make a suggestion for Constantinople because there was something wrong with it.
19:23:04 <Taneb> Which I am thankful for
19:23:58 <fizzie> Taneb: You are thankful for there being something wrong with it?
19:24:12 <Taneb> No, the suggestion and the implementation
19:25:23 <zzo38> However, the implementation I made is not perfect because it does not do bitwise I/O. Later I might fix that, or someone else might fix that. (Would you expect it to work perfectly even though it is the first program I wrote in Haskell?)
19:25:52 <Taneb> But I am glad someone made it
19:26:19 <Taneb> But yeah, that compiler made me happy
19:31:22 <zzo38> There are two esolangs that I did not make but that I did make the first public implementation. How many is it the case that in general, the first public implementation was written by someone other than whoever invented that esolang?
19:31:37 <Taneb> I'd imagine a large number
19:34:00 <zzo38> I tried to make a class in Haskell for making classical logic.
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19:34:30 <zzo38> data Zero; type Not x = x -> Zero; class Classical x where { contradiction :: Zero -> x; lem :: Either x (Not x); };
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19:34:46 <zzo38> instance Classical Zero where { contradiction = id; lem = Right id; };
19:35:01 <zzo38> instance Classical () where { contradiction = const (); lem = Left (); };
19:35:16 <zzo38> instance Classical x => Classical (Not x) where { contradiction = const; lem = either (Right . doubleNot) Left lem; };
19:35:30 <zzo38> Is this correct? Is there some mistake?
19:35:48 <Taneb> I don't know enough of classical logic to tell you, I'm afraid
19:41:20 <Vorpal> GTA IV has a most amusing glitch. If you slowly back up against a swing your vehicle will be flung into the air with tremendous speed. Often making you fly right *over* a skyscraper and landing you several hundred meters away.
19:41:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sounds very Stunts-y.
19:41:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, was that a pun?
19:42:06 <fizzie> No, not that I know of.
19:42:54 <fizzie> The "Stunts" game had quite a few "fly up to the ceiling of the sky" glitches.
19:43:52 <Vorpal> on the other hand, sometimes it just throw you a few meters up in the air. Not very predictable
19:44:11 <elliott> Vorpal: That works in real life too.
19:44:24 <elliott> If you disagree, I question whether you've ever tried.
19:44:43 <Taneb> elliott, that sounds almost like religion
19:45:12 <elliott> Taneb: Yes, but I don't see Christians flying over skyscrapers like total badasses, do you?
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19:48:46 <fizzie> If you jump a car from a ramp and hit the wall of a building, in midair, you tend to get ejected up and fly to the sky-ceiling, then slowly slide at that height to one corner of the world; then you land, make a complicated spinning-around thing for a while, and then explode.
19:48:56 <fizzie> Also probably works in real life?
19:50:21 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> If you jump a car from a ramp and hit the wall of a building, in midair, you tend to get ejected up and fly to the sky-ceiling, then slowly slide at that height to one corner of the world; then you land, make a complicated spinning-around thing for a while, and then explode. <fizzie> Also probably works in real life?
19:50:23 <HackEgo> 689) <fizzie> If you jump a car from a ramp and hit the wall of a building, in midair, you tend to get ejected up and fly to the sky-ceiling, then slowly slide at that height to one corner of the world; then you land, make a complicated spinning-around thing for a while, and then explode. <fizzie> Also probably works in real life?
19:55:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that in GTA IV too?
20:00:53 <Vorpal> also it severely deforms the car on launch
20:02:08 <Vorpal> for example I drove a "Patriot" (basically the game's rendition of a Hummer) that I flew like this. It ended up deformed enough that the roof intersected with the driver's head. No ill effects noticed. Still fully drivable.
20:02:33 <oerjan> <Vorpal> also it severely deforms the car on launch <-- relativistically correct, hm?
20:03:17 <zzo38> I think I implemented double negation elimination by: undoubleNot :: Classical p => Not (Not p) -> p; undoubleNot x = either id (explosion . flip (,) x) lem;
20:03:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, no, as in the metal being really bent
20:04:14 <Vorpal> given that the scenario is so unrealistic
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20:07:16 <oerjan> zzo38: your contradiction shouldn't need to be a method, it's intuitionistically correct
20:07:17 <Madoka-Kaname> undoubleNot :: Classical p => Not (Not p) -> p; undoubleNot (Not (Not p)) = p
20:07:48 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: There is no constructor "Not"
20:08:07 <oerjan> :t case ?z of {} -> ?x
20:08:26 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I found that on Wikipedia
20:08:34 <oerjan> except haskell doesn't support empty case
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20:15:42 <oerjan> zzo38: can't you write undoubleNot x = either id (contradiction . ($ x)) lem ?
20:16:42 <zzo38> It seem to be wrong type
20:18:51 <oerjan> make that undoubleNot x = either id (contradiction . x) lem ?
20:20:29 <zzo38> OK that appears to work.
20:20:30 <oerjan> so then is explosion (y,x) = contradiction (x y)
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21:34:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it was from Stunts.
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21:51:06 <Vorpal> apart from a feature of some movies
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21:52:30 <fizzie> <fizzie> The "Stunts" game had quite a few "fly up to the ceiling of the sky" glitches.
21:52:55 <fizzie> "Stunts (also known as 4D Sports Driving) is an early 3D racing video game developed by Distinctive Software, Inc.. The game places emphasis on racing on stunt tracks and features a track editor, it is clearly influenced by the earlier arcade game Hard Drivin' and has many similar elements to the game Stunt Driver which was released around the same time."
21:53:03 <fizzie> From 1990; MS-DOS and Amiga.
21:53:33 <fizzie> Several polygons at the same time.
21:54:05 <fizzie> http://www.ibiblio.org/GameBytes/issue20/misc/stunts1.gif
21:54:13 <twice11> Severely limited by graphics memory bandwidth on PCs that time.
21:54:25 <fizzie> Even transparency. (By stippling, but still.)
21:54:34 <twice11> I ended up playing it in CGA mode on a 386 with an 8-bit VGA board.
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21:55:22 <fizzie> http://www.ibiblio.org/GameBytes/issue20/misc/stunts.html "There's nothing extremely exciting about that, except the amazing things that can happen as you crash! Do not be surprised if you find your car soaring _hundreds_ of meters above the ground! Sometimes before a crash, sometimes after, but don't ever expect to survive such a fall! And there is nothing like going vertical in a F1 racing car to add some thrill to you spill! It's all part of the fun. "
21:55:31 <twice11> Of course, with the right hardware VGA mode was playable (read: 0-WS, 16-bit ET4000 based VGA card)
21:55:32 <fizzie> The physics bugs were among the best things in it.
21:55:46 <fizzie> I had a Tseng Labs ET-something card.
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21:56:19 <Taneb> posix.c:9:31: fatal error: readline/readline.h: No such file or directory compilation terminated.
21:56:34 <twice11> apt-get install libreadline-dev ?
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21:56:58 <Taneb> I'm not very good at this
21:57:33 <twice11> Taneb: If your system is debian-based, try the command I quoted (as root, on Ubuntu, prefix with sudo) to fix the problem.
21:57:43 <fizzie> Anyway, Stunts also recorded replays, so you could save the most ludicrous crashes.
21:58:10 <Taneb> Problems solved, 2/3
21:58:45 <twice11> And there was a workaround for the feature that if you continued from not-the-end of a reply you can't get a high score (i.e. rollback after a crash is deemed as cheating)
21:59:10 <twice11> Maybe it was saving to different replay files in regular intervals.
21:59:25 <twice11> So you could contine at the end of the "last known good" file.
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22:01:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://images.wikia.com/gtawiki/images/c/c8/DF8toobad00.jpg
22:01:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, green arrow points at launch point
22:03:02 <Vorpal> http://images.wikia.com/gtawiki/images/f/f1/Swing_glitch_%28GTA4%29_%28catapult%29.jpg [[ A glitched swing in action, moments after hurling the player and their car into the air. Notice the "agitated" leg of the swing slamming on the ground and cracking it, illustrating the tremendous force it possesses. ]]
22:03:24 <Vorpal> yeah I noticed the ground breaking around them constantly
22:04:21 <twice11> the law of energy conservation has obviously deemed invalid by the high court...
22:06:21 <Vorpal> I used the built in cheats (accessed by dialling a number on the in game cell phone) to spawn a Jetamax (speed boat) on top of one next to a skyscraper. It flew almost straight up until I lost sight of it. Half a minute later it landed on top of the skyscraper. Sadly I did not manager to enter the boat in time to watch this from first person view.
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22:10:18 <twice11> I don't understand why the car doesn't explode in that video after the jump.
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22:11:27 <twice11> According to my experience, you should not even survive at 0:55
22:11:28 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMAnnj25Kfg <- that's slightly more what I remember.
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22:12:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh. He actually survived that? In the first video
22:12:52 <fizzie> Apparently. I mostly recall things exploding.
22:13:42 <twice11> fizzie: Yes, the second video looks quite familiar to me. Although I usually cancelled instead of watching 2 minutes of flight.
22:14:39 <Vorpal> there was no explosion in it
22:15:23 <fizzie> The second wasn't all that high though, it didn't even hit the ceiling.
22:17:14 <Vorpal> another fun thing in GTA IV. In star junction (in the first unlockable area), if you fire a rocket launcher at a specific place synced with the traffic light pattern you can get a serial explosion that takes ages to stop because new cars keep arriving just in time to get blown up
22:17:16 <Vorpal> About 5-10 minutes of watching explosions before it dies out
22:18:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYlKFtu7RNY if you want to see the boom in Stunts.
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22:19:40 <Vorpal> not very impressive explosion
22:23:00 <fizzie> "it's good since it's made for computers weaker than pentium 1" (YouTube)
22:23:12 <oerjan> > let x = cos x in x :: CReal -- i wonder if this works...
22:24:43 <oerjan> > let x = 1 + 1/x in x :: CReal -- i wonder if this works...
22:26:35 <twice11> oerjan: Did I miss some news that Haskell now contains a numeric fix-point solver?
22:27:05 <oerjan> no, but if you could only get it _started_, wouldn't laziness take care of the rest.
22:27:23 <oerjan> i'm just not sure how to get it started.
22:28:35 <oerjan> dammit google removed the + prefix
22:29:01 <twice11> double-quote terms to force them to be included as-is.
22:29:36 <oerjan> it said at much. except i'm _sure_ that failed once recently for a multi-word phrase, so i had to use +"..."
22:30:59 <twice11> I was surprised by google staring to interpret 'bad-luck' not as strict as '"bad luck"' (single quotes for demonstration only, double quotes as entered)
22:31:16 <twice11> I used to use the hyphen as shorcut for multi-word searches.
22:31:22 <twice11> Which worked till around 2006
22:31:45 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe you should try ""thing with multiple words"" next.
22:32:28 <Vorpal> <oerjan> dammit google removed the + prefix <-- they what...
22:32:53 <oerjan> because google is evil, obviously.
22:33:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, elliott recommended it to me.
22:33:14 <Vorpal> https://duckduckgo.com/
22:33:28 <twice11> When google started in the late 90s, one of their big advantages was you don't have to use plus on all the terms to get relevant results...
22:33:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, you won't even need + in the first place most of the time with it
22:36:23 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck two :: Monad m => m a -> m (a, a)
22:36:23 <lambdabot> Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
22:36:23 <lambdabot> Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
22:36:59 * twice11 was looking for \x -> zip x (tail x)
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22:37:16 <lambdabot> quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail - the Aztec god of consecutive numbers
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22:38:27 <oerjan> > let x = cos x `max` 0.6 `min` 0.8 in x :: CReal -- lessee...
22:39:03 <oerjan> > let x = cos x `max` 0.7 `min` 0.8 in x
22:40:28 <twice11> > let findfp f s = fst $ head $ dropWhile (uncurry (/=)) $ (\x -> zip x $ tail x) $ iterate f s in (\x -> 1+1/x) `findfp` 1
22:40:42 <oerjan> twice11: good old zip`ap`tail
22:45:02 <twice11> oerjan: nice. That's in the reader monad, if I understand it correctly...
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22:48:48 <oerjan> !haskell putStrLn "I'm feeling better."
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22:49:38 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
22:49:51 <Vorpal> it isn't in Prelude is it?
22:50:06 <Vorpal> GHCi, version 6.12.1: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help
22:50:14 <Vorpal> good thing elliott isn't here
22:50:23 <twice11> Had to look for it, first suspected it in Control.Applicative.
22:50:45 <oerjan> Applicative and Monad are still not unified.
22:51:04 <Deewiant> Control.Monad.ap = (Control.Applicative.<*>)
22:51:15 <Deewiant> (For reasonable Monad/Applicative instances)
22:51:21 <oerjan> i am somewhat worried about this upcoming syntax i see thrown around which puts superclass defaults for a subclass _in the superclass_
22:51:48 <oerjan> it seems the wrong way to do it for making things extensible
22:52:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, and Num is still unified (several times I wanted, say (+) or (*) without implementing signum or abs)
22:52:51 <twice11> I think I read in LYAH that Monad is now a subclass of Applicative, but ghc 7.0.4 doesn't seem to know it...
22:53:12 <oerjan> twice11: alas, only in spirit
22:53:12 <Vorpal> I mean, you want (*) and (+) and (-) on Vectors. But abs is completely different for a vector. It is the length of it
22:53:31 <oerjan> Vorpal: (*) doesn't even have the right type for Vectors.
22:53:43 <twice11> I don't want * between vectors, or do you mean scalar or vector product?
22:53:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, well for the cross product maybe?
22:53:54 <Vorpal> but no, not for scalar
22:54:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, point is, Num contains too much
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22:54:14 <oerjan> the cross product only works for a few dimensions :/
22:54:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, there is that too
22:54:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, I never understood why it only work for certain dimensionalities
22:55:44 <oerjan> it's because the cross product is in _spirit_ not from vectors to vectors, but from vectors to antisymmetric 2-forms
22:56:10 <oerjan> and only for a few dimensions is there a nice embedding from 2-forms to vectors
22:56:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is a 2-form?
22:56:45 <Vorpal> I never heard the word before
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22:57:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_form
22:58:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_form#Wedge_product is iirc the generalization of cross product
22:58:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, so integrals tie into vectors? How weird
22:58:57 <Vorpal> Algebra and analysis seem so different on the surface, yet they are deeply connected.
22:58:59 <oerjan> if you want to integrate over multidimensional spaces, they do
22:59:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, I have a course in doing that atm
23:00:34 <Vorpal> it is quite complicated sometimes
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