00:40:59 <coppro> oh god template haskell
00:53:48 <zzo38> I think Template Haskell is good idea. Although, some improvements could be made, and it cannot do all things, such as, you might want some different kind of macro, so that you can make something like a polymorphic polymorphic function, as opposed to only normal polymorphic functions.
00:54:43 <zzo38> This is how I proved Peirce's law in Haskell:
00:54:48 <zzo38> peirce :: (Classical p, Classical q) => ((p -> q) -> p) -> p;
00:55:17 <zzo38> peirce = unswitcheroo . contrapositive .> mapR (contrapositive switcheroo') .> mapR (map1 undoubleNot . undeMorgan) .> mapL ((,) ()) .> either snd fst;
00:58:00 <oerjan> do you have any instance (Classical p, Classical q) => Classical (p -> q) ? i'm not sure if one should be possible
00:58:33 <zzo38> oerjan: I do but I did not write the methods yet. That is what I try to do.
00:59:13 <zzo38> (Specifically, I don't know how to write the law of excluded middle for (x -> y) or (x, y) or (Either x y))
00:59:16 <oerjan> i think Classical p is equivalent to having the axiom p \/ not p. hm.
00:59:39 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is what I did.
01:00:01 <oerjan> if you have y, then you have x -> y. so the question is, what if you don't have y.
01:00:11 <oerjan> i mean, you have not y.
01:00:39 <oerjan> so then you have (x -> y) -> not x, i think
01:01:10 <oerjan> if you have x, then it gives you a contradiction.
01:01:16 <zzo38> At first I write the instance for (Not x) separately but it is really a specific of the (x -> y) instance, so I commented out (and will later remove) the (Not x) instance.
01:01:19 <oerjan> but if you have not x, and not y, what then
01:03:45 <zzo38> Yes those are the things I was trying to think of!
01:05:37 <oerjan> lem = case (lem, lem) of (_, Left y) -> Left (const y); ...
01:07:57 <oerjan> (Right nx, _) -> Left (contradiction . nx);
01:08:47 <oerjan> but what of (Left x, Right ny) -> ...
01:09:47 <oerjan> (Left x, Right ny) -> Right (ny . ($ x))
01:11:05 <zzo38> Yes, thanks, that worked.
01:13:25 <oerjan> (Right nx, _) -> Right (nx . fst); (_, Right ny) -> Right (ny . snd); (Left x, Left y) -> Left (x,y)
01:14:53 <oerjan> should i try Either as well?
01:15:02 <zzo38> I should think so.
01:16:06 <oerjan> (Left x, _) -> Left (Left x); (_, Left y) -> Left (Right y); (Right nx, Right ny) -> Right (either nx ny)
01:16:45 <oerjan> bit confusing, that one :P
01:17:01 <zzo38> Yes it is, but the compiler accepts it.
01:21:24 <zzo38> What sort of explanation should I write on these things?
01:22:36 <oerjan> well essentially this is dividing up according to the boolean truth table of the operations, somewhat...
01:40:44 <zzo38> I seem to have made up a way of making classical logic in Haskell which is completely different from all other ways that other people have made up before that I know of.
01:49:14 <zzo38> In the non-program part of this Haskell program, I have already used three different accent-mark/special-letters.
01:50:41 <zzo38> (Specifically, \O, \"o, and \=o.)
01:51:12 <oerjan> \O ? are you crediting me? :P
01:51:48 <zzo38> Yes, for the part where you help me to make up the lem of some of the instances.
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01:52:25 <zzo38> It is o with macron or "bar"
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01:53:50 <zzo38> (Specifically, I was referencing "Ganto's theorem", on page 189 of Hofstadter's book)
01:54:03 <zzo38> (And, of course, \"o is for the title of that book.)
01:54:32 <zzo38> All of them are form of letter O, as it is turning out!!
01:55:22 <oerjan> and if you could sneak in a mention of Erd\Ho s as well...
01:56:59 <zzo38> Yes, I believe that is the correct spelling of his name (well, you need {Erd\H os} so that \H is one word by itself), but I don't seem to have something related to his things in this program, as far as I can tell.
01:57:19 <zzo38> (What I mean by \H is one "word" is it is one control word)
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02:13:39 <Sgeo|web> Derp, joined ther wrong channel
02:25:54 <CakeProphet> well, it needs some maintenance, but it runs which immediately makes it awesome.
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02:47:19 <olsner> a version 6 honda "accord" ... is that x86 compatible?
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02:59:05 <zzo38> Discard the notions of things changing/evolving in time, and then you can know the secret of time travel.
03:17:40 <Patashu> The secret of time travel is throwing yourself at the future and missing.
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03:23:23 <olsner> CakeProphet: that doesn't seem turing complete at all
03:23:25 <CakeProphet> It's one of the most compact engine layouts. Straight (aka inline) engines tend to be lengthier.
03:24:11 <olsner> right, so it makes for more compact code? or just the engine that's more compact, and the code ends up larger?
03:25:05 <CakeProphet> no it's not Turing complete, but it's much better at generating power/torque than puny computers.
03:26:15 <olsner> otoh, computers don't generally need to move stuff, just calculate it, so I don't see where that torque would be going
03:27:10 <CakeProphet> yes, and that is the difference between cars and computer
03:27:33 <CakeProphet> "lololol compraring cars 2 comptuters so clevr"
03:28:01 <oerjan> hey physics is equivalent to information theory anyway
03:28:03 <olsner> comparing cars and computers? but the cars are stored in the computers ...
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03:29:58 <CakeProphet> wow my lab professor doesn't even bother to compile the driver code to ensure it works.
03:38:11 <CakeProphet> do you mean that information theory is based on physics?
03:39:01 <CakeProphet> how would engine displacement translate to information?
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03:59:11 <monqy> engine displacement information
04:01:19 <CakeProphet> so basically they're equivalent in that information theory can simulate physics with... physics information?
04:02:06 <monqy> and physics can simulate information with information physics
04:02:32 <CakeProphet> I thought information theory used countable bits... doesn't physics specifically not use countable things?
04:02:53 <CakeProphet> I forgot about those things called particles.
04:03:58 * CakeProphet finds it entirely silly that Java has a new keyword.
04:04:34 <CakeProphet> is that it disambiguates the construction of arrays.
04:05:09 <CakeProphet> though I don't really think that's ambiguous
04:06:48 <monqy> wehres the key word
04:07:47 <monqy> hats hte keyworddw
04:08:15 <CakeProphet> in C++ it's needed to distinguish between heap allocation and... ephemeral object constructor things.
04:08:40 <CakeProphet> but Java doesn't have that distinction, so...
04:09:38 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> do you mean that information theory is based on physics? <-- the other way as well
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04:43:41 <zzo38> Is superstring theories science or is it mathematics?
04:52:53 <CakeProphet> what's the latest version of dwarf therapist
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05:32:26 <zzo38> Does the physical universe have any lazy I/O?
05:37:36 <CakeProphet> I don't think that question has any meaning in that context.
05:38:39 <CakeProphet> laziness is a property of the evaluation semantics of a programming language. Also, I'm not entirely sure what input/output would mean in the physical universe.
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05:55:09 <zzo38> CakeProphet: I don't know either; I just thought about it for philosophical reasons.
06:06:44 <zzo38> And anyways, I do not think that lazy evaluation is exactly the same things as lazy I/O, anyways.
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06:39:41 <Ngevd> It seems that in Australia everyone is a fervent royalist except for the politicians
06:45:08 <zzo38> In 1997 the AA Newsletter Transit invited astrologers to submit "articles of up to 3000 words which put forward a case for, and demonstrate, the Truth of Astrology -- whatever that may mean to the author". The results show how illogical everyone is in answering these questions. The winner looked at his own chart in advance, and predicted that he wouldn't win (he was wrong). Some responses are better than others, but none actually prove its trut
06:45:23 <zzo38> "Mankind questions everything. Skeptics challenge astrology because it has no obvious explanation. But there is no explanation of man's evolution, or of gravity, or of genes. They just are. The same with astrology. It is true because it exists."
06:45:49 <zzo38> "Nobody has come up with a sure proof of astrology, otherwise we would know about it via the Astrological Journal if not the BBC. Its truth lies in its symbols and meaning. But we cannot know in advance which of countless possible meanings will apply, so the truth of astrology lies at a deeper level: Mars in Cancer is always Mars in Cancer."
06:47:14 <Ngevd> Lemony cheese is always lemony cheese
06:48:56 <zzo38> One entry said that truth and facts are not the same thing (fact = it is raining, truth = what really lies behind that fact (such as clouds, gods, or whatever)). "Astrological truth is not like logical truth, such as if A=B and B=C then A=C. ... But like any language, astrology can describe truths." [but you can lie in any language as well! Worse, not everyone agrees on the language of astrology meaning. What is the use of language if nobody ca
06:50:09 <zzo38> "Astrology is proved every time we read charts for clients. If it were false we would not have clients. Researchers look at isolated factors so no wonder their results are negative. ... However, the multiple meanings of astrological symbols means that these things cannot be predicted in advance. Once the life has been lived we see how the chart fits like a glove."
06:50:32 <zzo38> [Actually any chart's interpretations will fit; even the wrong one.]
06:52:12 <zzo38> One of the entrants used astrology to prove that astrology must prove itself.
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06:55:35 <zzo38> "If you want proof of astrology, use the same proof that applies to religion or painting or music, not to science"
06:55:50 <zzo38> How do you prove a painting or a piece of music?
07:07:26 <zzo38> There is a Jyte claim (a statement that users with OpenID can vote agree/disagree and comments) that says "People who make life decisions based on astrology freak me out." Well, not to me; although I would not make decisions in this way. An agreer commented "Unless they are making a decision where a sane person might flip a coin or use a cat." But my response to that comment is: "But, flip a coin is just head and tails! That is the difference."
07:08:40 <Ngevd> What network thingies are the bots written in a non-networky language using?
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07:17:02 <Sgeo|web> You mean like Brainfuck? I don't think there are any Brainfuck bots here
07:17:24 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏ ...
07:17:31 <Sgeo|web> But it could be done by hooking stdio to IRC
07:17:32 <Ngevd> There's a thutubot
07:17:38 <Sgeo|web> Oh, fungot is written in Befunge-98
07:17:39 <fungot> Sgeo|web: mist.page. i meane that my heart meanes no ill intent, but that he will steale sir an egge out of a note
07:17:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
07:18:09 <Ngevd> Befunge-98 has built in networking
07:18:26 <Sgeo|web> I thought Ngevd said that That's a thutubot
07:19:09 <zzo38> http://jyte.com/claims?by=zzo38computer.cjb.net&page=1
07:19:50 <zzo38> Some claims I disagree my owns ones
07:20:54 <fungot> Sgeo|web: big. out dunghill: dar'st thou braue a nobleman? hub. why know you not
07:21:11 <Ngevd> All the bots ignore eachother
07:21:33 <Sgeo|web> Ngevd: HackEgo didn't seem to ignore fungot
07:21:35 <fungot> Sgeo|web: aut. here's another ballad of a fish that appeared upon the coast, and, from the firmament: thy sunne sets weeping in the lowly west, witnessing stormes to come, with words more sweet, and cunning hand laid on: lady, lady
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07:22:34 <Sgeo|web> ^ul (ACTION hugs Madoka-Kaname)S
07:22:35 <fungot> ACTION hugs Madoka-Kaname
07:22:49 <Sgeo|web> Oh, it's using that weird byte thingy?
07:22:55 <zzo38> Well, such uses of the command you should use with rarely. But it is sometimes of use.
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07:23:49 <zzo38> Count the seconds it takes to stop thinking about this sentence.
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07:26:37 <Ngevd> Too busy thinking about ars amatoria
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07:33:58 <zzo38> Have you ever pulsed a telephone manually?
07:35:16 <zzo38> Have you ever built a telephone?
07:36:16 <zzo38> I have never built a telephone (but would like to, at some time); I have, however, pulsed a telephone manually, even recently.
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07:38:59 <Sgeo|web> erm, fuck the connection that causes Sgeo to do that
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07:39:58 <Ngevd> All trees are planar graphs!
07:41:11 <zzo38> Ngevd: Yes, I believe so.
07:55:49 <CakeProphet> all of the dwarftherapists I try to use seem to be broken
07:57:28 <Sgeo|web> There's a DF IRC channel somewhere
07:57:39 <Ngevd> #esoteric-minecraft
08:01:51 <zzo38> I still have not figured out how to fix gopher movie time service
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08:29:50 <pikhq> "Just a quick game", he said at 1.
08:29:56 <pikhq> And pulled out a fucking board-wipe deck.
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08:38:53 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)!
08:39:03 <fizzie> That's who he doesn't care about.
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08:42:21 <pikhq> No, but it is the result of Befunge code.
08:42:31 <pikhq> As fungot is written in Befunge.
08:42:32 <fungot> pikhq: servant. my lord-- here shrowd till the dregges of the storme be past. this is the poyson of their hearts: god keepe you from them and from such false friends! prince. comes forward peace, ye fnord walls, where we did attend a suit, which was your shame, by this carriage. the hearts of kings, edwards vnhappy sonnes, do bid thee flourish.
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08:43:31 <fizzie> Matched against the nick!user@host prefix, that's why the ! at the end.
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08:46:17 <CakeProphet> fizzie: so then do you interpret the regex via Befunge or offload it?
08:46:52 <fizzie> There's an app^Wfingerprint for that.
08:47:16 <fizzie> The REXP one, I think.
08:47:22 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
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08:49:12 <fizzie> Yes. (See lines 26 and somewhere around 110.)
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08:51:16 <Ngevd> There's a few of them
08:51:33 <Ngevd> I'm going to write one in Piet as soon as I've figured out how
08:51:39 <fizzie> What. It's the cleanest-written Funge-98 irc-bot I've seen.
08:51:54 <fizzie> Admittedly only by virtue of being the only one I've seen.
08:53:06 <fizzie> Okay, the block on lines 125-169 which does the babbling is not the most structured.
08:53:49 <fizzie> But the underload interp at 310-347 is very clear.
08:55:03 <fizzie> The bf one at 351-372 (bytecode compilation) and 294-306 (execution) maybe a bit less so, but the execution bit isn't bad.
08:55:15 <Madoka-Kaname> You're implementing BF and underload then using them as the main languages
08:55:35 <fizzie> Well, no, not much of the botting stuff is done using those.
08:55:48 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr
08:56:15 <fungot> ( \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/)S
08:56:15 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
08:56:15 <myndzi> /| |\ |\ | /'\ >\ >\ | |\ /| >\
08:58:30 <fizzie> (The 'ul' on that list is an Underload interp in bf; it got obsoleted when native support was added. It was so slow it just barely managed (foo)S within the cycle limit.)
08:59:08 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
08:59:08 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
08:59:08 <myndzi> /'\ /| /< | >\ /< >\ | >\ >\ >\
09:02:03 <Sgeo|web> newtype Nomic a = Nomic (State (Nomic a) a)
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09:05:03 <CakeProphet> so I am foolishly building a water system, hoping that I understand pressure well enough to not flood my fort.
09:06:10 <CakeProphet> I just set up a waterwheel so I could try a pump. however
09:06:43 <CakeProphet> so, maybe the cistern would flood my fort?
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09:07:55 <CakeProphet> not even sure if my cistern works correctly.
09:08:32 <CakeProphet> so I can test stuff, shut it off, and remove the excess water.
09:09:46 <CakeProphet> the drain should really be at the bottom...
09:12:06 <CakeProphet> kind of time consuming even for 3 legendary miners though.
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09:39:35 <Ngevd> Does anyone ever use undead other than zombies in ZOMBIE programming?
09:44:34 <Ngevd> Vampires or Djinn could make decent rngs
09:46:04 <pagnol> Which obscure branch of computer science is the most interesting?
09:46:36 <Ngevd> Genetic algorithms in the context of stock markets
09:46:43 <Ngevd> That's also the most profitable
09:49:42 <pagnol> or in the context of biology, though I have no clue about the latter
09:50:46 <pagnol> any other suggestions?
09:53:48 <pagnol> I'm a student of computer science and the lectures I am obliged to attend at the moment deal with the most common subjects (introductory stuff like automata, linear algebra etc.), so I would like to investigate some not so common topic
09:54:07 <Ngevd> Well, I'm not much help there
09:54:29 <Ngevd> Because I'm doing the first year of A-levels
09:54:39 <Ngevd> Maths, Further Maths, Ancient History, and Latin
09:54:48 <Ngevd> And have barely any Computer Science background
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09:54:55 <Ngevd> Really just what I've picked up here
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09:56:13 <pagnol> But you do invent languages?
09:56:22 <Ngevd> Not very good ones
09:56:50 <pagnol> Have you published the specifications or provided an interpreter?
09:57:16 <pagnol> How are they called? I'd like to have a look
09:57:32 <Ngevd> Brook, Constantinople, Luigi, MIBBLLII, Numberwang, and Nandypants
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10:01:53 <pagnol> Luigi sounds interesting
10:02:38 <Ngevd> One of the few esolangs to be demonstrated turing-complete by showing that arbitrary turing machines can be translated into it
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10:08:06 <fizzie> I would like the "proof" on the page a bit more if you'd have translated one of the universal ones.
10:08:21 <Ngevd> Pass me a universal one, and I'll do it
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10:09:48 <fizzie> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniversalTuringMachine.html if you can read their I-think-it's-really-wonky graphical notation.
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10:30:16 <Ngevd> That better, fizzie?
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11:24:28 <CakeProphet> > " " ++ (unwords . map (\x -> "http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/"++show x++".png") $ [1..5]) ++ " "
11:24:30 <lambdabot> " http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/1.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2...
11:39:45 <CakeProphet> but anyways I have a rudimentary water system now, with a cistern so I can store water in the freezing winter.
11:40:12 <CakeProphet> I might also be able to turn it into a fishing room if I put bridges over it perhaps?
11:40:23 <CakeProphet> I've been having trouble catching fish for some reason.
11:40:41 <CakeProphet> I think it's because all of the water supplies are a z-level below the land adjacent to it.
11:41:07 <CakeProphet> well, fishing room sounds badass too so I'll do that. :P
11:41:22 <CakeProphet> also the cistern should catch some fish during winter.
11:43:27 <CakeProphet> any diagonal flow will completely negate all pressure always?
11:43:42 <Ngevd> I'm awful at water management in DF
11:43:53 <CakeProphet> I may just set up one of those fancy perpetual motion water wheels and use a pump.
11:44:33 <CakeProphet> but otherwise my water wheel will die in the winter. I guess I should have connected it to the cistern.
11:45:49 <CakeProphet> basically I want to set up a well in my hospital
11:46:00 <CakeProphet> so I can just install a floodgate to mitigate disaster.
11:47:31 <CakeProphet> actually, I don't even really get what makes a floodgate different from a door.
11:47:47 <CakeProphet> except that a door can be controlled my dwarves and floodgates much be mechanized.
11:49:36 <CakeProphet> ooooh, maybe if I do some fancy pipework I can put a badass waterfall in my dining hall.
11:50:27 <CakeProphet> but then drainage /not flooding everything / resizing rooms and rerouting pipes becomes very difficult
11:57:53 <CakeProphet> I don't really understand how people sanely tunnel into magma/water sources.
11:58:31 <Ngevd> The weather's acting up
11:59:07 <Ngevd> There was frost not two days ago
12:01:01 <CakeProphet> also my embark site has a volcano I believe.
12:01:49 <CakeProphet> so I have an easy supply of magma to, say, construct a moat around my impenetrable fortress wall with archer towers. :)
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12:18:25 <CakeProphet> there should be some kind of structure that converts magma flow into power.
12:18:38 <CakeProphet> similar to a water wheel but with much greater (possibly infinite?) power gains.
12:19:09 <CakeProphet> this would allow you to power a magma pump stack with the magma itself.
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17:04:31 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Luigi&curid=4094&diff=24982&oldid=24836
17:04:39 <elliott> Ngevd: that doesn't prove it TC
17:04:41 <elliott> ask ais523 if you want to know why :P
17:04:55 <elliott> (ais523's proof requires an infinite initial state)
17:05:05 <ais523> elliott: read it again
17:05:11 <ais523> it's not simulating the 3,2 machine at all
17:05:21 <ais523> it's giving a 3,2 busy beaver - a different machine - as an example
17:05:27 <elliott> ais523: I linked to a diff
17:05:28 <ais523> the order of the numbers isn't standardised
17:05:31 <elliott> don't comment on it without reading the diff
17:05:41 <ais523> it's such a wide diff only half fit on the screen
17:05:49 <ais523> the original proof is better#
17:06:02 <ais523> however, there are turing machines which are TC with a finitely initialised initial tape
17:06:13 <ais523> the wolfram machine isn't one of them, but they do exist
17:09:40 <ais523> hilariously, Wolfram claimed a 2,5 machine universal in ANKOS, because it simulated rule 101
17:09:54 <ais523> but it had no way to simulate rule 101 with an infinite tape, which is needed for the universality proof
17:10:08 <ais523> and I got to tell him this over the phone
17:10:24 <ais523> (I fixed the universality proof of that machine, btw, but haven't posted the fixed proof anywhere)
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17:34:28 <Ngevd> Is there a standard notation for turing machines including initial tape lurking around anywhere?
17:35:45 <Ngevd> Because I could probably make a turing machine to Luigi translator
17:37:02 <Ngevd> Pretty easily, actually
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17:49:48 <zzo38> "Ganto's theorem" follows directly from law of excluded middle: ganto :: (Classical p, Classical q) => (p -> q, Not p -> q) -> q; ganto (x, y) = either x y lem;
17:51:35 <zzo38> (Actually, Classical only has to apply to p, not q, since law of excluded middle is only used with p)
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18:03:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: temporarily aborted, I think
18:03:47 <ais523> we want to clean up the mess first
18:04:04 <ais523> actually /playing/ BlogNomic is encouraged, and even recommended
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18:27:51 <Sgeo|web> We actually talked invasion in here?
18:28:54 <Sgeo|web> (Because I totally should be talking about security)
18:29:05 <Vorpal> what does that 12345678^&! in the topic mean?
18:29:05 <elliott> you forgot the agora-business archives
18:29:10 <Vorpal> looks like befunge code to me
18:29:18 <Vorpal> except it makes no sense as such
18:29:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well but what else is it?
18:29:32 <zzo38> Now I made a shorter proof of Peirce's law
18:29:45 <zzo38> By eliminating one step
18:32:53 <Deewiant> By that argument everything is *funge
18:34:04 <Sgeo|web> elliott: are you 9 and 0 keys working or something?
18:34:06 <elliott> Deewiant: echo 'echo "$1: Befunge code"' >/usr/bin/file
18:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, you forgot #!/bin/sh in that
18:35:58 <elliott> elliott@katia:~$ echo 'echo "$1: Befunge code"' >file
18:35:58 <elliott> elliott@katia:~$ chmod +x file
18:35:58 <elliott> elliott@katia:~$ ./file file
18:36:21 <Vorpal> and is that portable by POSIX?
18:36:46 * elliott lets Vorpal figure out how the shell works.
18:37:07 <Vorpal> elliott, hm maybe it won't work when executed by exec()?
18:37:34 <shachaf> elliott: How's your compiler going?
18:37:39 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah executing it under strace for example fails
18:37:46 <elliott> shachaf: I've been busy subverting democracy.
18:37:53 <shachaf> I met edwardk yesterday and he told me all about the type checker that he's writing to procrastinate on making slides for his trifecta talk.
18:38:04 <Vorpal> elliott, so clearly it won't work for a /usr/bin/file, since it can only be executed from a shell
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18:40:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: It *should* work just fine, actually.
18:41:18 <pikhq> If it's not a valid executable, POSIX mandates that exec shall pass the program to the shell.
18:41:26 <pikhq> It does not mandate #!.
18:41:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it SuS though?
18:42:00 <Vorpal> if not then SuS sucks badly
18:42:08 <pikhq> The "invalid executables go to the shell" is at least historical UNIX behavior.
18:42:15 <pikhq> No, #! is not SuS.
18:42:36 <Vorpal> Where is SuS defined these days btw? I haven't seen a SuS for POSIX 2008 yet
18:45:03 <pikhq> SuS is this: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/toc.htm
18:45:16 <pikhq> With XSI and a few other POSIX-specified options mandated.
18:45:38 <pikhq> (FSC, TSA, TSH, TSS, UP, and XSI)
18:45:59 <zzo38> I think oerjan should correct the reference to the Astrolog program that he has on Agora Nomic's [First Speaker's message event's] Horoscope
18:46:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, so the POSIX.1-2008 spec basically contains SuS?
18:47:30 <elliott> zzo38: oerjan is not online
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18:47:54 <elliott> Vorpal: posix has always included sus since 2001
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18:57:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, r/AskScience modding has become aggressive as hell.
19:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, go to front page. Look at thread. Note how half the comments in thread are deleted.
19:04:07 <elliott> anyway, they're a default reddit now
19:04:11 <elliott> it just means more people are making stupid comments
19:04:15 <elliott> rather than more comments being deleted
19:04:30 <elliott> if your policy is to delete everything with an objective stupidity rating of at least N
19:04:40 <elliott> and being a default reddit causes a thousand times more comments that satisfy that
19:04:47 <elliott> your moderation hasn't gotten any more aggressive at all
19:04:52 <elliott> no it isn't, I just literally explained now it isn't
19:05:07 <zzo38> elliott: Then tell oerjan when they are online.
19:05:31 <elliott> zzo38: you do it; there's ?tell
19:05:43 <fizzie> fungot: Tell oerjan whatever it was that you were supposed to, when e's online.
19:05:44 <fungot> fizzie: rosa. why she hath a face of her owne distresse, or like to men prowd of destruction, defie vs to our shape, if this you purpose as ye speak, diana's temple is not distant far, where you shold but hunt with modest warrant
19:05:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are you deliberately trying to be stubborn in the face of anyone explaining why you're wrong
19:06:03 <elliott> because nobody really cares if you think the policy is more aggressive if you're just going to say same difference whenever anyone says it's not
19:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm in a room which is about 30° too hot and I'm trying to watch Spaced.
19:12:44 * nooga just finished watching whole EtosLab channel on yt
19:15:02 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Same. <Phantom_Hoover> Difference. <-- how? elliott's argument makes perfect sense
19:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Except in the sense that it failed to account for equality of differences.
19:15:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because there isn't any equality of differences
19:16:18 <Vorpal> that doesn't even make any sense
19:16:23 <zzo38> One thing I might make a METAFONT program for various astrological/astronomical symbols, and some additional symbols such as the phase of the moon (for printing calendars); symbols for solar system objects, including variant glyphs (like Astrolog supports), zodiac, fictitious objects, aspects, Ophiucus, etc
19:16:24 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: he does some nice contraptions
19:16:48 <Vorpal> nooga, got a link to any good video?
19:18:19 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKJA2suBc7s&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLFD1682F2801E7ADF
19:18:20 <Vorpal> nooga, I don't even get any relevant results googling for "EtosLab", just some facebook stuff
19:18:27 <zzo38> (So it would include some that Astrolog does not have, such as Ophiucus, and the descending lunar node, and phase of moon symbols (like those used on calendars). Am I missing anything?)
19:18:36 <Vorpal> nooga, oh right, I copy pasted what you said
19:20:00 * elliott hoped nooga meant real EMP.
19:20:09 <elliott> "And now to try it on my city."
19:20:30 <nooga> also this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasmotjs0NA&feature=BFa&list=UUFKDEp9si4RmHFWJW1vYsMA&lf=plcp
19:20:44 <nooga> when he ties to beat Vechs' adventure maps
19:21:32 <nooga> this guy is quite smart and definately does unique stuff based on his own research
19:26:04 <nooga> anyone tried Terraria? :D
19:29:00 <Vorpal> nooga, kind of different from mc really
19:29:26 <Vorpal> while it might look like a 2D minecraft on the surface it is actually very different in gameplay
19:29:56 <nooga> i tried to watch some LPs but it looks soo boring
19:30:08 <nooga> they stay on the surface all the time and fight slimes
19:30:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I wonder if you could disable redstone circuits remotely.
19:30:53 <nooga> push blocks with redstone wiring
19:32:45 <Vorpal> impossible unless there is a bug in the server
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19:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, if torch burnouts were global rather than local...
19:34:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, thankfully it isn't
19:36:22 <nooga> i like the new terrain generator
19:37:47 <pikhq> I like certain of the concepts *in* the new terrain generator.
19:37:55 <pikhq> Most obviously, larger biomes.
19:38:09 <nooga> ravines are a bit too common
19:38:22 <pikhq> But, yeah, certain other things make it seem much *less* real.
19:38:31 <pikhq> Such as, yes, biome interfaces.
19:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> They're extremely sharp; the Perlin moisture/temperature stuff has clearly been altered.
19:39:16 <Vorpal> yeah, the new stuff is annoying
19:39:36 <Vorpal> I'm still on 1.7.3, partly because of that but mostly because I use the technic pack
19:39:56 <nooga> how realistic can you get in a game in which everything is made from huge cubes
19:40:01 <nooga> who cares about realism
19:40:09 <Vorpal> <nooga> they stay on the surface all the time and fight slimes <-- try watching the TotalBiscuit videos of it. They are funny
19:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not realism I care about; it's the fact that it's blatantly artificial.
19:41:07 <Vorpal> nooga, yeah http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lypSNqYE5XY for example
19:42:01 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, it doesn't amuse me when it's what you'd expect from someone with WorldEdit.
19:43:42 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: example?
19:44:33 <pikhq> Also, recently Minecraft has been making some diversions from the aesthetic.
19:44:46 <pikhq> Chests that aren't 1 m^3 and open...
19:44:50 <pikhq> Square moon and sun...
19:45:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, the square moon and sun are still there, no?
19:45:07 <Vorpal> anyway it is texture pack dependent
19:45:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw I don't have anything against opening chest. The smaller chest though...
19:45:55 <pikhq> *Especially* since the animation seems to have made the break animation not work.
19:46:28 <pikhq> Y'know how blocks show cracks as you break them?
19:50:53 <tiffany> I liked the old chest size
19:50:55 <Vorpal> what? My USB 3.0 controller is using IRQ 4294967277?
19:51:00 <Vorpal> does that even exist!?
19:51:30 <pikhq> No, there's hardly any IRQ lines.
19:51:53 <pikhq> Grand total of 15 IRQs.
19:52:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually there are plenty of things up to IRQ 23 here
19:52:13 <tiffany> well, when I had ubuntu my GPU was IRQ19
19:52:52 <Vorpal> and on my laptop I have up to IRQ 49: http://sprunge.us/PGGT
19:53:38 <tiffany> 0 1 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 20 23 3 4 43 44 5 6 7 8 9 default_smp_affinity
19:53:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, so there might be a grand total of 16 historically but that no longer seems to be the case
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19:54:16 <Vorpal> nevertheless, that IRQ 4294967277 to IRQ 4294967293 that my USB 3 controller is using... wtf
19:54:27 <Vorpal> sorry, up to 4294967292
19:54:48 <Vorpal> 4294967293 is used by my intel gbit ethernet and 4294967294 by my GPU
19:55:08 <pikhq> Anything beyond that is straight-up lies.
19:55:17 <pikhq> The IRQ lines are *physical lines*.
19:55:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, you forgot about message signalled interrupts
19:55:45 <pikhq> Admittedly, modern x86 is a habitual liar.
19:55:56 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_Signaled_Interrupts
19:56:34 <oerjan> <zzo38> I think oerjan should correct the reference to the Astrolog program that he has on Agora Nomic's [First Speaker's message event's] Horoscope
19:56:34 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:57:25 <oerjan> well i would, but i have this strange nostalgic feeling about files with pre-millennium date stamps
19:58:15 <elliott> You can fake datestamps :)
19:59:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, MSI allows more than 16 interrupts. Because they are no longer physical lines
19:59:46 <zzo38> oerjan: O, OK, so that is why. Then put a separate file on the main page, next to the link for that horoscope, a note about the link for Astrolog being invalid
20:00:05 <elliott> oerjan: see, he has solutions to all your problems :)
20:00:25 <oerjan> zzo38: actually my protest is void
20:00:36 <oerjan> i just realized i edited the file back in 2007 :P
20:02:10 <oerjan> actually i think i'll make a new parenthetical remark, and let the main text stand
20:03:51 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, do that; perhaps that will help.
20:04:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: Habitual. Liar.
20:04:31 <Vorpal> elliott, you mentioned those useless fsck of ext3/4, well one just happened to me, on /usr. Took all of 5 seconds.
20:04:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, they are accurate. Due to MSI.
20:05:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is it that you don't understand about MSI?
20:05:26 <elliott> Vorpal: they take a lot more than five seconds
20:05:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: The bit where it pretends to be physical lines off of the CPU.
20:05:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, where did they pretend that?
20:05:56 <pikhq> By having IRQ numbers.
20:06:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, well then there is the APIC
20:06:31 <Vorpal> the APIC goes up to at least 23 according to /proc/interrupts
20:06:36 <pikhq> Just like certain things pretend to be the 8086 system bus.
20:07:16 <Vorpal> anyway rebooting from freebsd to linux changed the IRQ numbering on my desktop. I no longer have those extreme numbers
20:07:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, http://sprunge.us/MUNd
20:07:26 <Vorpal> is what I see from linux on my desktop
20:08:08 <Vorpal> on my laptop that same file: http://sprunge.us/XAKE
20:08:28 <pikhq> See? Lies and deceit.
20:09:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, I get another interrupts on my desktop once I start X11. Seems like fglrx adds it on demand. It shows up as 62.
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20:09:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess freebsd and linux simply allocates the dynamic interrupts required differently.
20:10:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway MSI-style interrupts have numbers too
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20:10:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, so claiming they are lying by being numbered, as you did above, is not true.
20:11:02 <pikhq> By being IRQ numbered.
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20:11:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, uh... So what would you suggest instead?
20:12:09 * oerjan is briefly reminded that IRQ used to be a chat program. ihrc.
20:12:58 <nooga> OSX default compiler toolchain sucks badly when it comes to osdev
20:13:23 <pikhq> OS X default compiler toolchain is, uh, fairly mundane GNU.
20:13:25 <elliott> s/ default compiler toolchain//
20:13:43 <nooga> imagine my face when i discovered that ld produces ONLY Mach-O
20:13:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, apart from that
20:14:14 <nooga> the rest is llvm-gcc
20:14:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, you would end up with the MSI style interrupts on any modern CPU architecture
20:14:34 <oerjan> oh wait am i thinking of icq
20:14:35 <nooga> but i had to compile my own toolchain and put it in opt
20:14:37 <Vorpal> that made sense for a desktop style usage
20:14:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, icq? Wasn't that some old IM thingy?
20:14:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: You wouldn't end up with it implemented on top of an interface for 16 wires coming off of the CPU.
20:15:05 <elliott> I don't know that llvm-gcc gets any real use on OS X.
20:15:09 <elliott> clang for all userland applications, definitely
20:15:14 <oerjan> Vorpal: that was the _point_
20:15:15 <pikhq> Just like you would have a system bus on any modern CPU architecture, but you wouldn't come up with the 8086 system bus.
20:15:49 <oerjan> also, try to search for "irq" chat shows just how obnoxious google is these days - it _corrects_ it, even with the quotes
20:15:52 <nooga> i hate xcode way of doing things
20:16:24 <nooga> it took me 2 days to figure out how to make a form with a button that would change it's text when clicked
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20:16:43 <oerjan> oh hm that's only in instant, it works if i press return
20:17:39 <oerjan> i'm still divided on whether i hate google instant or find it convenient.
20:17:57 <pikhq> (you may know the 8086 system bus as "ISA" or "IDE" or "ATA")
20:18:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah better to use a different search engine such as DDG. Btw I have nothing against Google saying "did you mean" even with quotes. As long as it doesn't auto correct
20:18:02 <oerjan> it depends a bit on how much my laptop is thrashing :/
20:18:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, trashing? You need more ram
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20:18:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, how old is that laptop?
20:19:17 <oerjan> it wasn't a top model even then
20:19:21 <Vorpal> besides I find laptops unergonomic. Pain in the neck if I use one for a long time
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20:19:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: did you mean is fine. but it now often does it the other way around, so you need to click to get the real thing
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20:19:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, definitely switch to DDG
20:20:06 <oerjan> and what's worse, google instant is somewhat buggy when you do click
20:20:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, DDG has a very useful info box on top of searches too: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=MSI
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20:20:49 <oerjan> if you used the suggestion menu, it doesn't get what you selected but what you typed
20:21:10 <Vorpal> click computing to expand that and find Message Signalled Interrupts
20:21:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, and it does W|A
20:22:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, basically it is what google should be. And should it not find anything useful you can just add !g at the start of your search to make it go to google
20:23:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway, have I convinced you to switch yet? You can turn off the ads in the prefs btw. If you don't want to support DDG :P
20:23:56 <Vorpal> oh and it is anon, no personalised search results apart from setting region in preferences (if you want to).
20:25:50 <zzo38> Is this list sufficient? http://sprunge.us/FATD
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20:27:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, I have convinced you to switch yet?
20:27:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, ... what is it?
20:28:13 <zzo38> Vorpal: It is a (incomplete) METAFONT program. So far I just put the names and numbers of the characters in the font.
20:28:30 <Vorpal> well, I don't think there are any METAFONT experts here
20:28:52 <Vorpal> why would anyone use METAFONT these days. You can use Type1 with pdftex and TTF with xetex
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20:29:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: i've opened it. no promises.
20:29:41 <zzo38> You don't need to know about METAFONT; I am asking if you think there are sufficient symbols listed in there (for all planets, phase of moon, etc).
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20:29:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, give it a try. elliott recommended it
20:30:12 <zzo38> And I don't want to use pdftex, Type1, XeTeX; I also think METAFONT is a good program to design typefaces, in general.
20:30:18 <oerjan> as a first impression, i miss a tool tip on that looking glass button
20:30:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I do not implicitly support your recommendations.
20:30:43 <Vorpal> elliott, of course not. But you recommended it to me
20:30:46 <Vorpal> that is all I'm saying
20:30:56 <Vorpal> elliott, if you dispute that, go check the channel logs
20:31:17 <oerjan> i suppose they really want to be minimalist
20:31:20 <Vorpal> elliott, you watched too much yogscast
20:31:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, mail the guy behind it if you really need a tooltip saying "search" :P He tends to respond
20:31:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, and it is "him" not "they". It is a one-guy project
20:31:50 <zzo38> Vorpal: Even if *you* don't like METAFONT, I still prefer METAFONT and with DVI output and so on.
20:31:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't even seen that episode.
20:32:02 <zzo38> And in my opinion it is superior.
20:32:10 <Vorpal> elliott, come on. Simon says "Diggy diggy hole" quite often.
20:32:27 <elliott> I haven't watched since the beginning of the second season.
20:34:34 <pikhq> I've only really watched them messing around with mods since then.
20:35:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, I tend to watch everything but the HoN videos. Because those tend to not be very funny, and HoN doesn't interest me
20:36:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is quite nice
20:36:20 <Vorpal> I missed the beginning, haven't bothered to go back. You get into the plot quite easily
20:36:25 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's far far more cocking around than is interesting.
20:36:47 <zzo38> I think METAFONT is far better than any other program for typeface designing that I know of.
20:37:16 <zzo38> It can be used to design logos, too.
20:38:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Cocking around is interesting; scripting isn't
20:39:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, cocking around on the part of the scriptwriters.
20:42:42 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's far far more cocking around than is interesting. <-- still funny tough
20:43:00 <Vorpal> but they clearly have some server mods for special effects
20:43:07 <Vorpal> and client mods too I think
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21:09:48 <pikhq> http://i.imgur.com/gTXgm.png Because a captcha should be OCR-able.
21:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> But if the OCR bot knows about the all-new Chevy Sonic, who cares?
21:14:58 <myndzi> i saw one of those things recently and raged hardcore
21:15:06 <myndzi> it wanted me to enter not one, but two things
21:15:18 <myndzi> and one required watching the video (i mean advertisement)
21:15:29 <myndzi> what it amounts to is that nobody really understands what a captcha is for, it's just a hoop they jump through
21:15:34 <myndzi> so one hoop is much the same as another to them
21:15:42 <myndzi> and these fuckers are taking advantage of it
21:16:51 <myndzi> well yes, but in some contexts it serves a useful purpose
21:17:07 <myndzi> it's just that many computer users don't understand when it's legitimately useful
21:17:14 <ais523> advertising CAPTCHAs are enough to make me not use a site
21:17:22 <myndzi> because 1) many site owners don't seem to understand, they just throw that shit up there because it's "in"
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21:17:34 <myndzi> and 2) they don't really understand what it's for and how it's supposed to accomplish its goal
21:17:52 -!- tiffany has joined.
21:18:47 <pikhq> A captcha is actually a darned good thing if done right, in the right context.
21:19:10 <monqy> I don't understand the advertising component either; isn't frustrating potential customers counter to the goal, or are most people totally okay with them
21:19:13 <elliott> tiffany: you like spambots more?
21:19:19 <pikhq> Sadly, even with reCAPTCHA, people manage to fuck it up.
21:19:20 <monqy> spambots are my bros
21:19:36 <pikhq> And, of course, doing it in the right context is easy to fuck up if you're ignorant.
21:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, ah, but they remember you as those people who annoyed you!
21:20:08 <monqy> they annoyed me now i want to buy all their product
21:20:08 <tiffany> It's kind of obvious when someone joins your forum and starts spamming under the counter drugs without a prescribtion things
21:20:19 <tiffany> and it's kind of obvious to push the "purge posts" and "ip ban" buttons
21:21:00 <myndzi> people put up with captchas in the same way they put up with every other annoying thing that consumers allow companies to get away with
21:21:02 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder if anyone's set up a Bayesian filter for forums.
21:21:10 <zzo38> I dislike CAPTCHAs too but there are many other ways to prevent spambots.
21:21:14 <Vorpal> kilowatt-hour, what a stupid unit... Unless I missed out on something it is just 3600 kilojoule.
21:21:31 <myndzi> in the case of captchas, since most of the people involved don't know what they are really about, they don't understand when they're being taken advantage of (advertising "captchas")
21:21:31 <tiffany> I'd prefer to ask a simple logic question
21:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's also an easy unit to work with for domestic power consumption.
21:21:41 <myndzi> so they don't know the difference between that and real captchas
21:21:48 <pikhq> Anyways. I'd say the easiest way to use a captcha scheme to block spambots is to use it for account registration.
21:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, because computers are really terrible at simple logic questions!
21:21:51 <elliott> <tiffany> It's kind of obvious when someone joins your forum and starts spamming under the counter drugs without a prescribtion things
21:21:51 <elliott> <tiffany> and it's kind of obvious to push the "purge posts" and "ip ban" buttons
21:21:58 <elliott> tiffany has never heard of blogs.
21:22:07 <elliott> Or, indeed, anything that gets any kind of volume of traffic at all.
21:22:10 <elliott> <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder if anyone's set up a Bayesian filter for forums.
21:22:14 <elliott> pikhq: StupidFilter; it was stupid
21:22:18 <myndzi> pikhq: you can pay people to sign up all kinds of accounts in bulk for cheap
21:22:19 <pikhq> Though this screws up blog comments a bit.
21:22:35 <myndzi> but that doesn't mean i think that every post form should have a captcha, for example
21:22:38 <tiffany> if there's enough spambots that you can't keep up then something is horribly wrong
21:22:44 <zzo38> I have gotten spam messages on blog, but since I made a new one on gopher, it stops making spam message
21:22:45 <myndzi> there are other things you can do to make it not worth a person's time to spam your shit
21:22:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nevertheless Joule makes more sense to me than watt*hour. Because W*h = (J/s)*s*3600 basically.
21:22:51 <pikhq> tiffany: Then the Internet is horribly wrong.
21:22:58 <Vorpal> those s cancel each other
21:23:19 <pikhq> Vorpal, it's a humans-suck-at-units thing.
21:23:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Appliances have power consumptions in watts, and tend to be run on timescales on the order of hours.
21:23:42 <pikhq> "Kilometers per hour" is also a really silly unit.
21:23:46 <tiffany> I kind of don't care about spam
21:23:53 <elliott> tiffany: yes, because everyone else cares about it for you
21:23:55 <elliott> look at your spam folder sometime
21:24:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There's a perfectly good SI unit.
21:24:13 <elliott> tiffany: then nobody knows your email
21:24:34 <tiffany> I get an email every so often from some guy saying he's from hong kong and wants to give me a million dollars
21:24:44 <tiffany> and goes by the name "wing wang"
21:24:46 <pikhq> tiffany: You probably have the world's most amazingly unknown email address.
21:25:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess km/s would make sense though Or mm/s. But not x/h
21:25:02 <zzo38> I do not even have a spam folter.
21:25:15 <pikhq> tiffany: Congrats, your spam should skyrocket.
21:25:15 <tiffany> yahoo must like, sell off lists of email addresses
21:25:16 <myndzi> how i have dealt with spam for going on 10 years:
21:25:31 <myndzi> siteimregisteringon.com@domain.com
21:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, eh, the logs for here aren't crawled to my knowledge.
21:25:45 <Vorpal> tiffany, stupid... the channel is logged in public
21:25:46 <myndzi> i know where every e-mail is sourced that way
21:25:47 <zzo38> I have an SMTP server but I turn it off most of the time so that whenever anyone tries to send a spam message, they will get error message about not reachable server.
21:25:50 <elliott> tiffany: If I put that on the esolang wiki, your spam folder would be huge within a day.
21:25:51 <myndzi> based on what it gets sent to :)
21:26:06 <elliott> pikhq: I dunno if spambots would get text/plain
21:26:11 <Vorpal> myndzi, that makes sense. I thought about doing that too.
21:26:17 <tiffany> how do people even make money off of spambots?
21:26:17 <Vorpal> never got around to it
21:26:23 <myndzi> it got me in a little trouble the other day actually, lol
21:26:29 <myndzi> i placed an online order for a towncar to take me to the airport
21:26:38 <myndzi> and the guy almost dropped my registration because he thought it was fake
21:26:39 <pikhq> tiffany: If 1 in a billion people fall for it, they get 1 hit.
21:26:45 <pikhq> At least 1, sorry.
21:26:50 <myndzi> (i never bought domain privacy because it didn't exist when i registered the domain - so it's got false info)
21:27:02 <pikhq> And spam is so fucking cheap that they probably make a profit off of that.
21:27:18 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> I think the worst part of growing up is that it isn't retroactive.
21:27:21 <pikhq> And the hit rates are probably a bit closer to 1 in a few million.
21:27:21 <myndzi> that is, he understood what i was doing, but he couldn't wrap his head around the fact that i'd paid him $60 for the reservation and that should be enough
21:27:22 <HackEgo> 690) <Phantom_Hoover> I think the worst part of growing up is that it isn't retroactive.
21:27:29 <tiffany> It should take computational power to be able to send email
21:27:35 <tiffany> like, have to do a proof of work or something
21:27:37 <myndzi> he was all flighty until i gave him my "real" e-mail address (actually a secondary one)
21:27:50 <oerjan> <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess km/s would make sense though Or mm/s. But not x/h <-- it makes sense when you want to estimate how long time it will take you to drive somewhere without having to convert seconds to hours, which non-nerds probably find annoying
21:27:54 <myndzi> i mean, he was smart enough to know what was going on and do a WHOIS of my domain, but he put stock in e-mail as an authenticating factor? wtf.
21:27:56 <Vorpal> tiffany, this has been considered. Never was a hit. Because not everyone was using it
21:28:24 <Phantom_Hoover> People who *enjoy* doing arithmetic are rare, to say the least.
21:28:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well yeah
21:28:39 <Vorpal> I know someone who does
21:28:51 <myndzi> i enjoy calculating things in my head :|
21:29:04 <pikhq> oerjan: *Clearly* we should reform humans so that SI is trivial.
21:29:15 <pikhq> And so we can use only base units, instead of derived.
21:29:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, with making sense I meant "sense in context of the SI system"
21:30:22 <pikhq> (as an aside, I rather dislike the use of kg as a base unit)
21:30:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, you beat me to that
21:30:41 <pikhq> It's the only base unit that has a prefix.
21:30:51 <Vorpal> we should rename kg to g. Then it would all work
21:31:28 <pikhq> Also, the ampere is far too large.
21:31:42 <elliott> Vorpal: <Vorpal> we should rename kg to g. Then it would all work
21:31:46 <elliott> Vorpal: except that all the derived units would suck
21:31:58 <Vorpal> elliott, no, because they all use kg currently rather than g
21:32:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so it would simply things
21:32:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: Milliampere is about the right size.
21:32:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, it would complicate derived units
21:32:45 <Vorpal> elliott, because kg is the base unit
21:34:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: Still, the ampere is effing huge.
21:34:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway I worked with A rather than mA sometimes. I admit that mA is more common in electronics.
21:34:20 <Vorpal> but not in high energy electrics
21:34:39 <pikhq> Domestic circuitry isn't going to hit more than 20 A.
21:34:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, I seen kA about once iirc
21:35:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually I think this house has a 25 A main fuse or such. But then it is fairly large and you need a lot of heating in Sweden during the winter.
21:35:57 <Vorpal> might be 20 A, not sure
21:35:58 <oerjan> <pikhq> Also, the ampere is far too large. <-- well compared to the tesla...
21:36:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, what about the Coulomb?
21:36:35 <tiffany> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pennypost/
21:37:03 <elliott> that looks like hashcash except stupid
21:37:06 <fizzie> There was a 2T magnetic field in one place at CERN.
21:37:06 <Vorpal> tiffany, it rather hinges on everyone else you communicate with using it as well
21:37:20 <elliott> by stupid, I mean it doesn't have a wikipedia article
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21:37:36 <tiffany> elliott, this client was referenced by the wikipedia page on hashcash
21:38:09 <Vorpal> # The amount of charge that travels through a lightning bolt is typically around 15 C, although large bolts can be up to 350 C.[11]
21:38:09 <Vorpal> # The amount of charge that travels through a typical alkaline AA battery is about 5 kC = 5000 C = 1400 mAh. After that charge has flowed, the battery must be discarded or recharged.[12]
21:38:13 <Vorpal> that much in a battery!?
21:38:50 <Phantom_Hoover> That's the amount that moves through it over its lifetime.
21:38:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well yes
21:39:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm still surprised
21:39:15 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_field) "strongest pulsed magnetic field yet obtained in a laboratory, destroying the used equipment, but not the laboratory itself"
21:39:24 <Vorpal> yeah it only makes sense for capacitators
21:39:49 <fizzie> elliott: Apparently the clarification is necessary, since presumably the one stronger number there did destroy the lab too.
21:39:57 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's tied to the amount of reactive stuff in the battery by Faraday's constant, which is 96kC/mol.
21:40:04 <fizzie> (As it is just "strongest (pulsed) magnetic field ever obtained (with explosives) in a laboratory".)
21:40:21 <Vorpal> "strongest (pulsed) magnetic field ever obtained (with explosives) in a laboratory (VNIIEF in Sarov, Russia, 1998)[11]" <-- presumably the lab was destroyed then?
21:40:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you do it with explosives?
21:41:22 <fizzie> "This device consists of a generator solenoid (the first cascade) with internal and external diameters of 175 mm and 200 mm respectively and a length of 500 mm, and two internal cascades with diameters of 28×35 mm and 12×17 mm and a length of ~200 mm. One-cascade system of explosive compression, consisting of the main HE-charge with diameters of 360×650 mm, a length of 350 mm and a mass of ~170 kg, steel cylinder-impactor with an external diameter of 356 mm an
21:41:33 <fizzie> .. and internal HE-charge with diameters of 200×300 mm and a length of 280 mm, is located on the outside of the solenoid. The MC-1 generator solenoid is powered with a current of 4-5 MA. MC-1 generator operation time (without powering time and HE-charge detonation time) is about 15 μs, maximum liner implosion velocity is more than 6 km/s, the magnetic field derivative reaches values of ~5 1013 Gs/s. The diameter of the final field volume is 24 mm, its length
21:41:37 <fizzie> Like that, apparently.
21:42:35 <Vorpal> I'm* just wondering how the explosion leads to magnetism. Physically I mean
21:43:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Moving components at a high enough speed to generate a field, it seems.
21:43:34 <Phantom_Hoover> (How big is the B-field vector in, say, a gamma ray photon, though?)
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21:47:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, interesting point
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21:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not actually sure if it's possible to work it out.
21:51:21 <Vorpal> I'm no physics expert though
21:52:14 <tiffany> there's a lot of things that make magnetic fields o.o
21:52:56 <tiffany> like pushing water through a cylinder, or a moon-sized sphere of 30 million psi iron rotating inside of an ocean of molten iron and nickel
21:53:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Pushing water through a cylinder does not, to my knowledge, produce a magnetic field.
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22:10:50 <oerjan> the captchas are sinking!
22:10:52 <fizzie> Oh Big Nose in the Sky.
22:11:33 <nooga> zangband vs adom ?
22:16:01 <oerjan> > unwords $ repeat "spam" `interleave` cycle ["wonderful", "tasty"] `interleave` repeat "spam"
22:16:02 <lambdabot> "spam spam wonderful spam spam spam tasty spam spam spam wonderful spam spa...
22:16:38 <oerjan> lambdabot: you are not spammy enough
22:18:10 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a]
22:18:30 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bug do let msg yow
22:18:47 <HackEgo> 2011-07-17.txt:13:49:22: <CakeProphet> there are probably many sets of interesting strings you could construct with the [0..] >>= (`replicateM` alphabet) thing.
22:20:07 <Vorpal> <nooga> zangband vs adom ? <-- nethack
22:21:00 <Vorpal> with a GUI frontend and fancy tileset
22:21:10 <Vorpal> nooga, you can't get less spartan than that
22:21:42 <oerjan> oh dear i think they got (co)pumpkin http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2011-October/096262.html
22:21:42 <bd_> :t alphabet
22:22:35 <oerjan> > [0..] >>= (`replicateM` ['a'..'z'])
22:22:36 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","c","d","e","f","g","h","i","j","k","l","m","n","o","p","q","r"...
22:23:04 <fizzie> A too ...y example there.
22:23:18 <oerjan> > [0..] >>= (`replicateM` ['a'..'b'])
22:23:19 <lambdabot> ["","a","b","aa","ab","ba","bb","aaa","aab","aba","abb","baa","bab","bba","...
22:23:33 <bd_> interesting. all strings in that alphabet, I see
22:23:52 <CakeProphet> it's now time to flood my base as I fuck up pressure stuff.
22:24:13 <oerjan> CakeProphet: hey it happens to the best of evil overlords
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22:25:35 <bd_> CakeProphet: DF?
22:26:01 <elliott> but yeah I think it's IRL guys
22:26:05 <elliott> you need to spend more time here
22:26:30 <CakeProphet> yeah currently working on my IRL water system.
22:26:38 <CakeProphet> complete with floodgates, levels, and cisterns.
22:26:52 <oerjan> and self-destruct button.
22:27:02 <bd_> CakeProphet: remember, water loses pressure when flowing diagonally IRL as well!
22:27:34 <CakeProphet> I'm actually going to use a pump system for that, I don't remember why.
22:27:37 <nooga> CakeProphet: how big it is?
22:28:15 <CakeProphet> I'm not sure my drain is working. maybe it's taking a long time?
22:28:33 <CakeProphet> or maybe when I divert sourced water it too becomes sourced water or something?
22:28:34 <elliott> yeah water is pretty slow, irl i mean
22:28:53 <bd_> particularly if you have a channel only one dragon wide
22:28:55 <oerjan> the drain in spain is a lousy refrain
22:29:02 <Ngevd> Haven't plaid DF in a while
22:29:10 <CakeProphet> well, it kind of stopped moving, perhaps it doesn't have flow anymore?
22:29:15 <Ngevd> Haven't striped it either
22:29:17 <evincar> So I had a thought today, and I'd like to know if it's a bad thought.
22:29:30 <monqy> I was just about to say
22:29:43 <bd_> CakeProphet: If it's a single-width channel it will take a _very_ long time to flow any significant distance.
22:30:08 <Ngevd> But carry on, evincar
22:30:14 <CakeProphet> bd_: single width channel as in z-level right? the aqueduct itself is 3 spaces wide, but the downward slopes are only 3-width channel each.
22:30:18 <elliott> monqy: were you just about to say that too
22:30:32 <elliott> CakeProphet: yes z-level is totally width
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22:30:43 <evincar> Well, I was working on a concatenative language, which was turning into Yet Another Forth.
22:30:46 <bd_> CakeProphet: I was thinking width of the path it's flowing through.
22:31:02 <bd_> If you're going down levels a single hollowed-out shaft is probably fastest
22:31:05 <evincar> So I was thinking of alternate structures to use instead of stacks.
22:31:20 <evincar> And I figured linked-lists, with two special values: "top" and "persistent top".
22:31:22 <bd_> elliott: DF squares are exactly the same size as a dragon, or a mouse, or any number of any other creature, apparently.
22:31:31 <evincar> Operations always work on the leftmost "top".
22:31:43 <evincar> Terms to the right of a top aren't evaluated.
22:32:13 <monqy> elliott: "evincar's idea is going to be bad" premonition
22:32:14 <evincar> Whereas tops are replaced by stack operations, persistent tops are merely shifted.
22:32:24 <CakeProphet> bd_: er, how do you dif vertically downwards like that?
22:32:28 <evincar> There's always at least one persistent top, at the end of the list.
22:32:50 <bd_> CakeProphet: You start at the level one above the bottom. Channel it out. Then go to the next level up. Repeat. Or just use up/down stairwells all the way down.
22:33:08 <evincar> With tops you can easily implement prefix and infix operations, and with persistent tops you can implement parentheses.
22:33:29 <bd_> CakeProphet: The downside is that this will build up a LOT of pressure at the bottom. Make sure you have a system for draining it for maintenance, and tap diagonally
22:33:29 <evincar> So that's kinda neat, as it doesn't require macros.
22:33:45 <zzo38> I have different idea of roguelike game; with many difference. One is that instead of list of race/class, you must type them in because any creature in the game you can make player character too; and with clases there is also too many. If you omit then it will assume "Human Fighter" if entirely blank, "Human" if race is blank, and "No-class" if class is blank.
22:34:15 <zzo38> And also differences in computation of experience points, item curse, challenge rulesets, spells, etc.
22:34:45 <bd_> zzo38: the hard part is balancing all those races
22:34:59 * oerjan notes duckduckgo is misspelling its own doodle link
22:35:06 <bd_> it's not that hard to modify nethack to allow you to start as some arbitrary other race, but then it tends to be either under or overpowered
22:35:37 <Ngevd> The more powerful they start, the slower they level
22:36:30 <bd_> yeah, but then you need to measure how powerful they are and adjust all that
22:36:36 <bd_> it's not impossible, it's just a lot of work
22:36:48 <Ngevd> Sweet, I've struck lemonade
22:36:49 <bd_> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/72734f3022b8929c/790c0ee267af9750?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=initpoly#790c0ee267af9750 <-- patch for nethack 3.4.1 that does basically that
22:37:00 <bd_> 3.4.0 rather
22:37:14 <zzo38> bd_: In addition, player characters and non-player character follow all the same rules, using the same data structure to represent them. Ngevd: Yes and that can be done too. However, even if you don't, you can keep scores separately for each one so that you use different challenge whatever you want!! Same thing with classes; the classes can also be unbalanced.
22:37:53 <zzo38> (I seem to recall that the races and classes in ADOM were not intended to be perfectl balanced either)
22:38:14 <Ngevd> You know what I would like to see?
22:38:25 <Ngevd> A multiplayer version of NetHack
22:38:40 <Ngevd> You know what else I would like to see?
22:38:56 <Ngevd> A version of me who could actually play NetHack
22:39:09 <bd_> You know what I would like to see?
22:39:12 <zzo38> Ngevd: Does Nethack use the same data structures for PCs and NPCs? If not, it seem it will have a lot of trouble working multiplayers at all.
22:39:15 <bd_> A new version of nethack sometime this century :)
22:39:24 <Ngevd> zzo38, I have no idea
22:39:26 <elliott> the problem with multiplayer nethack is time, as everyone knows.
22:39:35 <bd_> zzo38: nope, and it assumes it's turn-based and synchronous _everywhere_
22:39:43 <bd_> you'd have to rewrite it from scratch
22:39:57 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, time; but you can make a turn-based, possibly a simultaneous turn-based.
22:40:09 <zzo38> bd_: You can have each level having its own time, I suppose.
22:40:19 <bd_> there's too much code that assumes there's only one player though
22:40:28 <elliott> wasn't ais523 doing something with acehack about that?
22:40:37 <elliott> /some/ kind of coop roguelike, anyway
22:40:51 <bd_> I think it's been done with some variant of angband
22:41:00 <Ngevd> Okay, it's still early spring and I've lost an expedition leader
22:41:03 <ais523> elliott: I was working on a multiplayer AceHack, yes
22:41:09 <zzo38> So that people in different levels are making actions independently of others; but if you move up/down the stairs, you must wait for the next turn before continuing.
22:41:11 <ais523> it isn't finished nor even playable yet, though
22:41:17 <elliott> bd_: acehack is quite a bit more like nethack, though :P
22:41:23 <ais523> it's done by using multiple processes, and each process thinks a different person is the lone PC
22:41:42 <bd_> ais523: and then some really hairy synchronization between them? :)
22:43:15 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: I was working on a multiplayer AceHack, yes <-- that is awesome
22:43:23 <Vorpal> ais523, how would the interaction work?
22:43:27 <bd_> ais523: fun. I guess if someone sits at a Yes/No prompt it hangs things for everyone?
22:43:29 <Vorpal> wrt turn based and so on
22:43:42 <ais523> Vorpal: all the players are in the same turn order, while on the same level
22:43:50 <bd_> that sounds not at all horribly frustrating
22:43:51 <ais523> each level has its own independent turn order
22:44:01 <ais523> bd_: well, it's meant for only a few players who are friends
22:44:05 <ais523> it's not massively multiplayer or anything like that
22:44:09 <Ngevd> I don't think each level should have its own independent turn order
22:44:22 <bd_> still sounds frustrating - hit 4, wait wait wait wait wait okay hit 4 again wait wait wait wait wait
22:44:23 <Vorpal> I think that is a good idea
22:44:31 <Ngevd> Because then one player could starve to death while another player thinks about hitting a grid bug
22:44:37 <oerjan> Ngevd: looking at your Luigi page, i wish to note that the wolfram 2,3-TM is not directly applicable to proving most languages TC, since it requires infinite setup
22:45:00 <ais523> oerjan: we told him that already
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23:00:00 <evincar> I guess since no one objected, my idea isn't complete crap.
23:00:07 <evincar> So I'ma go implement that.
23:00:33 <elliott> or it was too crap to comment on
23:14:12 <CakeProphet> yeah my pipe isn't flowing all the way to the edge of the map
23:14:24 <CakeProphet> it just things out and takes eons to evaporate.
23:15:45 <CakeProphet> so I guess my drain needs to actually be some kind of pump system.
23:21:35 <tiffany> someone signed my other email up for notices from CARE.org
23:21:47 <elliott> tiffany: but you don't care about spam
23:22:25 <ais523> tiffany: check the headers for an unsubscribe link; if they have one, use it
23:23:35 <elliott> ais523: unsubscribe links are not usually in headers...
23:23:56 <tiffany> there was a link at the bottom of the page
23:24:07 <elliott> ais523: you have clearly never received spammy newsletters ebfore
23:24:39 <ais523> elliott: I know, because I told my boss about header checking recently, and he picked a spammy newsletter to test it on
23:24:45 <tiffany> is there even a way to view message headers in thunderbird
23:24:48 <ais523> then saw the unsubscribe link, followed it, and actually unsubscribed
23:25:49 <fizzie> "View source" in Thunderbird, wasn't it? Haven't used it in a while.
23:27:39 <tiffany> yeah there's no list-unsubscribe
23:28:30 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]).
23:29:20 <fizzie> Ooh, there is one in the email from this hotel chain.
23:29:29 <fizzie> But no list-headers in this Disneyland spam I get after having been there once.
23:31:18 <fizzie> Heh, this one message has a header named "KEY" containing the value "Value".
23:32:20 <ais523> that is pretty hilarious
23:32:41 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you can iterate over the entire symbol table in Perl
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23:32:45 <ais523> my guess is yes, but I don't know how
23:33:02 <ais523> use that to put $*hash{key} = 'Value' for every hash
23:40:27 <fizzie> Incidentally, was ais or someone from Cambridge? At this event today we had a Cambridgean (Cambridgeous?) mathematician showing off an authentic Enigma.
23:41:11 <fizzie> I is really bad at remembering such things.
23:41:20 <pikhq> I've heard "Cantabridgean", but that is likely only applicable to Cambridge, MA.
23:41:33 <fizzie> It always seems to be some sort of a ham.
23:42:49 <elliott> "Cantabrigian is an adjective denoting "of, or pertaining to Cambridge", that is, of the University of Cambridge or of the city of Cambridge, England."
23:44:16 <pikhq> Okay, well: it also applies to Cambridge, MA.
23:44:52 <oerjan> cambrian mathematicians are such trilobites
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23:57:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, strange m->n in "Cantabridgean"
23:57:48 <elliott> Vorpal: wait until you hear the one for Oxford students: Oxonian
23:57:57 <elliott> "The term is derived from Oxonia, the Latin form of Oxenford or Oxford."
23:58:05 <elliott> "The term is derived from Cantabrigia, a medieval Latin name for Cambridge invented on the basis of the Anglo-Saxon name Cantebrigge. (The actual Roman name for Cambridge was Duroliponte.)"
23:58:16 <Vorpal> well okay, that makes sense
23:58:29 <Vorpal> for some values of sense
23:59:04 <Vorpal> elliott, so actually they should be called Duroliponts or some such?
23:59:29 <Vorpal> I like oerjan's version